
For The Love With Jen Hatmaker Podcast
New York Times bestselling author Jen Hatmaker and her longtime friend, Amy Hardin, have arrived in the middle years — and they couldn’t be happier about it. Each has navigated the ins and outs of life — from careers, to parenting, marriage (and, for Jen, divorce), spiritual evolution, and the joys of being hardcore Gen Xers.With each weekly episode, Jen and Amy serve as our “everywoman” guides to all the seasons — past, present, and future — as they walk excitedly and tenaciously into the second half of life.While Jen and Amy have plenty of wisdom to share — and some pretty hilarious stories, too — they don’t claim to know it all. That's why they invite some of the most interesting and accomplished guests to the podcast, bringing insight, expertise, and understanding to the most relevant topics of our time. From Jen and Amy’s compelling conversations with guests to their witty banter (and the occasional eye-rolls at the absurdities of life), they’re here reassure you that you’re not alone in this game of life. It’s “For the Love” of all that is good, justified, exasperating, exhilarating, real, fun — and so much more.
Latest episodes

Jun 20, 2025 • 1h 27min
Encore: Growing up Evangelical and Gay with Jonathan Merritt
Description:
Today, we’re revisiting a pivotal conversation that changed the course of Jen’s life and career. In 2016, during what was expected to be a routine interview with journalist Jonathan Merritt, Jen found herself speaking publicly for the first time about her views on abortion, politics, and LGBTQ+ issues—beliefs she had been wrestling with privately for over a year. While she was confident in her answers, she was unprepared for the backlash that followed.
In this encore episode, Jen and Jonathan reflect on that moment and its ripple effects. Jonathan shares his own parallel journey—growing up as the son of a megachurch pastor, internalizing the “love the sinner, hate the sin” message, and later confronting his own identity as a gay man. His story, like Jen’s, became public in ways he never expected, leading him on a path of deeper truth, faith, and purpose.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
“You told the truth. You were ready for this interview. You had actually been doing the work for a decade to be ready to answer those questions honestly. But, your PR wasn't ready.” – Amy Hardin
“The best way to live is true. No matter what you think it will cost or what it does cost you, the cost is worth the reward.” – Jen Hatmaker
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Religion News Service - https://religionnews.com/about-rns/
Jen Hatmaker: Trump, Black Lives Matter, gay marriage and more by Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/jen-hatmaker-trump-black-lives-matter-gay-marriage
Growing Up Evangelical and Gay with Jonathan Merritt - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-63/growing-up-evangelical-and-gay-with-jonathan-merritt/
My Saddest Good Friday in Memory: When Treasured Things are Dead - https://jenhatmaker.com/my-saddest-good-friday-in-memory-when-treasured-things-are-dead/
Love is the Game Changer of Our Faith: Bishop Michael Curry - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/love-is-the-game-changer-of-our-faith-bishop-michael-curry/
How to Create a Politics of Love: Lisa Sharon Harper - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcast/series-24/how-to-create-a-politics-of-love-lisa-sharon-harper/
Christian Rock Star Comes Out as Gay in Letter to the World - Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/christian-rock-star-admits-hes-gay-writes-letter-to-fans?rq=trey%20pearson
Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/eugene-peterson-changing-mind-sex-issues-marriage?rq=eugene
Leading Evangelical Ethicist is now Pro-LGBT (David Gushee) – Jonathan Merritt - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/article/leading-evangelical-ethicist-now-pro-lgbt?rq=david
A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars – Jonathan Merritt -
Dr. Michael Lindsay, Sociologist & Author - https://www.taylor.edu/about/president-profile
James Martin, Jesuit Priest - https://www.instagram.com/jamesmartinsj/
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.jonathanmerritt.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jonathan_merritt
Twitter - https://x.com/JonathanMerritt
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/JonathanMerrittWriter
Substack - https://jonathanmerritt.substack.com/
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jun 18, 2025 • 1h 7min
Say Yes to Pleasure: How to Talk About Sex and Rekindle Intimacy in Midlife with Vanessa Marin
Description:
With over two decades of experience in the field, Vanessa Marin is on a mission to help people break down shame, talk openly about sex, and create truly intimate relationships. As a a licensed psychotherapist, sex educator, and bestselling author of Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life, which she co-wrote with her husband, Xander, Vanessa brings a candid, humorous, and deeply compassionate voice to a topic that too often stays in the dark
Whether your relationship is in a rut, your spark feels a little… dim, or you just want to feel more connected—to your partner and yourself—this one’s for you. Vanessa is going to help us say yes to communication, to connection, and maybe most of all, to pleasure.
Some topics we dig into:
Why we have knee-jerk reactions to sex rooted in shame
Why Vanessa says you should start having sex like a man
The myth about the female orgasm
The best things for your sex life that have nothing to do with taking off your clothes
The difference between spontaneous desire versus responsive desire
Thought-provoking Quotes:
“Despite not getting a great introduction to sex or intimacy or relationships, I had this intuitive sense that there should be joy with this act. There should be connection and intimacy, and it should be something I should feel excited to explore when the time is right.” – Vanessa Marin
“This is literally what I am here on this earth for, is to help people get more comfortable talking about sex, connection, and intimacy.” – Vanessa Marin
“A lot of people hear, she's a sex therapist. They must have this incredible sex life. the reality is, we've been through ups and downs, too. ” – Vanessa Marin
“We get very little, if no, actual sex education. Most of us are left with movies, and TV, and porn as our only sex education. So it's totally understandable that most of us see these scenes and think, that's what I'm looking for. That's the kind of connection I'm supposed to have with my partner. But, the reality is the way that sex looks on TV and in the movies, that's designed for entertainment. It's designed to look good and be pretty. It's not what sex really looks like in real life.” – Vanessa Marin
Research has shown that in male-female relationships, women are carrying the vast majority of the mental load. There is so much that is going through our heads on a daily basis—all this tracking, and preparing, and anticipating, and evaluating, our heads are just constantly going. And when you have so much in your brain, it makes it really hard to make the space for intimacy and desire too.” – Vanessa Marin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life by Vanessa Marin and Xander Marin - https://amzn.to/43VSwnS
The Sex Talks Card Deck and Guidebook: 90 Prompts to Deepen Connection and Spark Intimacy - https://amzn.to/3Hys1xa
Vanessa and Xander’s Deeper Monthly Membership - https://buy.vmtherapy.com/deeper
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://vmtherapy.com/about
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/vanessaandxander/
Twitter - https://x.com/VMTherapy
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/vanessaandxander/
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/vanessamarin
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@vanessaandxander
Pinterest - https://www.pinterest.com/vanessaandxander/_created/
Podcast - https://vmtherapy.com/podcast/
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jun 11, 2025 • 1h 14min
Who Deserves Your Love? KC Davis on Boundaries, Healing, and Letting Go
Description:
KC Davis is a licensed professional counselor, an author, a speaker, and, frankly, one of the most compassionate, funny, down-to-earth voices out there. During the pandemic, she created an amazing platform called Struggle Care where she has been teaching us how to care for ourselves (and our homes) without stigma or shame. Like—if the laundry’s piled up or the dishes aren’t done, it doesn’t mean you’re lazy or broken. It just means you’re living life. It’s a gracious approach to self-care that we wildly embrace.
KC’s first book, How to Keep House While Drowning, was a total game-changer for so many women who’ve felt overwhelmed by the everyday—and now she’s back with a brand new book called Who Deserves Your Love, helping us figure out which relationships we want to invest in, which ones need boundaries, and maybe even which ones we need to step away from.
This conversation goes to some deep places. We talk about:
What mistreatment looks like in relationships, as opposed to abuse
The stories that we tell ourselves about another person’s behavior when we get caught up in the vulnerability cycle
What it means to be morally neutral
How to use a relationship decision tree to evaluate and make decisions about a relationship
And the sticky secret to enforcing boundaries
With accessibility, humorous relatability, and vulnerability, KC is here to help us navigate the messy, complicated work of loving people and loving ourselves.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
“Sometimes my publishers will give me some advice like, ‘Let’s project that you’re a credible expert’, meanwhile I’m shooting TikToks from the toilet.” – KC Davis
“Despite being a therapist, I did not realize that I had severe postpartum depression because I didn't feel sad.” KC Davis
“Messiness is not a moral failing. Either your messiness is just a part of your personality and it's pretty functional for you and you don't need to change anything and accept yourself or maybe it's because you're having a hard time.” – KC Davis
“No one has ever shamed themselves into better mental health.” – KC Davis
“Self-care is not the thing you do to make yourself not struggle. It is learning how to take care of yourself while you struggle.” – KC Davis
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Who Deserves Your Love: How to Create Boundaries to Start, Strengthen, or End Any Relationship by KC Davis - https://amzn.to/3GVFdfh
How to Keep House While Drowning: A Gentle Approach to Cleaning and Organizing by KC Davis - https://amzn.to/43dAn4n
KC Davis Resources - https://www.strugglecare.com/resources
KC Davis TED Talk - How To Do Laundry When You’re Depressed - https://www.ted.com/talks/kc_davis_how_to_do_laundry_when_you_re_depressed_apr_2022
Thomas–Kilmann Conflict Styles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas%E2%80%93Kilmann_Conflict_Mode_Instrument
Struggle Care - https://www.strugglecare.com/
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.strugglecare.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/strugglecare
Twitter - https://x.com/KCDavisSays
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/StruggleCare/
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@domesticblisters
Podcast - https://www.strugglecare.com/struggle-care
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jun 6, 2025 • 57min
May 2025: Wade Rouse’s (aka Viola Shipman’s) The Page Turner
Description:Beloved author Wade Rouse—who writes under the pen name Viola Shipman—joins Jen for a heartfelt, hilarious, and deeply insightful conversation about writing, identity, and honoring the women who shape us. Known for his evocative novels rooted in love, memory, and family, Wade shares the origin of his pen name (a tribute to his grandmother), the transition from memoir to fiction, and how Michigan became the emotional landscape for so many of his stories.In this touching episode, Jen and Wade dive into:
The joy (and exhaustion) of book tours
The beauty of writing from grief
The fight against genre-shaming in publishing
Why women’s voices in literature matter more than ever
His latest novel The Page Turner, and what inspired it
His upcoming project that’s giving Golden Girls a queer twist
Whether you’re a book lover, an aspiring writer, or someone who believes in the power of personal stories, this episode is packed with inspiration, connection, and literary magic.Thought-Provoking Quotes:★ “My grandmother never finished high school, but she taught me to love myself unconditionally. My novels are a thank-you to her.” – Wade Rouse★ “The most fearful place in your life can also be the place you take off from.” – Wade Rouse★ “I’m not having it—genre shaming diminishes stories that speak to real people in real life.” – Wade Rouse★ “Writing is how I make sense of the world. It’s what keeps me alive.” – Wade Rouse★ “Real readers read your books.” – Jen HatmakerResources Mentioned in This Episode:➢ The Page Turner by Viola Shipman - https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-page-turner-viola-shipman/c2LjF3Fyg5p6hhsJ➢ Thank You for Being a Friend (Coming Spring 2026 from Wade Rouse) - https://www.harpercollins.com/products/thank-you-for-being-a-friend-wade-rouse?variant=43837257121826➢ On Being Jewish Now, edited by Zibby Owens – https://zibbymedia.com/products/on-being-jewish-now?srsltid=AfmBOopN4cohtpA6k7EbIWC3F0Pq7dYqivWB5s97E-e9iEtFrw4sugUH➢ Erma Bombeck –https://amzn.to/3DT9NoL➢ BookPeople in Austin, TX – https://www.bookpeople.com➢ Visit Saugatuck, MI – https://www.saugatuck.comGuest’s Links:Website – https://www.violashipman.comInstagram – https://www.instagram.com/violashipmanFacebook – https://www.facebook.com/ViolaShipmanBooksConnect with Jen!Website – https://jenhatmaker.comInstagram – https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerFacebook – https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerYouTube – https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmakerThe For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jun 4, 2025 • 1h 9min
You Called, We Listened: Your Stories, In Your Words
Description:
Today, we’re playing a few of our favorite messages and responding to what you, our listeners, have shared. Whether it’s midlife realizations, hard-won wisdom, or letting go of stuff that just isn’t serving you anymore—this is about all of us learning from each other.
Thank you to Alice, Ann, Sarah, Ashley, #1 Becky and “Badass Becky”
Also, Sydney Hatmaker said some hurtful things to us about us broadcasting our bare old lady feet on the podcast and we had to take a minute to discuss a new dress code policy.
Thought-provoking Quotes:
18:00 Sometimes the tool is just language – Amy Hardin
21:00 Tools all in use but still suffering – Jen
27:00 I want to shake people and pull things over. I’m not sure that’s the appropriate response. – Jen
29:30 If we don’t counter messages, others will take over. – Jen
47:00 Make a list of your accomplishments to use for momentum – Amy
48:00 I think we are at our best in the second half of life – Jen
58:00 I want out of the rat race – Jen
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Reclaiming Your Power: Moms Demand Action’s Shannon Watts on Living a Life of Passion and Purpose - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/reclaiming-your-power-moms-demand-actions-shannon-watts-on-living-a-life-of-passion-and-purpose/
Camino de Santiago - https://santiago-compostela.net/
Midlife Isn’t a Crisis, It’s a Comeback: Maddie Corman on Being Accidentally Brave - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/midlife-isnt-a-crisis-its-a-comeback-maddie-corman-on-being-accidentally-brave/
Betrayal Trauma - https://www.verywellmind.com/betrayal-trauma-causes-symptoms-impact-and-coping-5270361
Brené Brown - https://brenebrown.com/
Books by Brené Brown - https://amzn.to/3FgwnIt
The Tears of Things: Living Prophetically in an Age of Outrage with Richard Rohr - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/the-tears-of-things-living-prophetically-in-an-age-of-outrage-with-richard-rohr/
Trump administration says it’s cutting 90% of USAID foreign aid contracts - https://apnews.com/article/trump-usaid-foreign-aid-cuts-6292f48f8d4025bed0bf5c3e9d623c16
Kendra Adachi - https://www.thelazygeniuscollective.com/
Escaping the Productivity Trap: Kendra Adachi’s Lazy Genius Perspective - https://jenhatmaker.com/podcasts/series-64/escaping-the-productivity-trap-kendra-adachis-lazy-genius-perspective/
Frances Mayes - https://www.francesemayes.com/
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

4 snips
May 28, 2025 • 1h 3min
Secrets of Adulthood: Gretchen Rubin on Living a Happier, Simpler Life
Gretchen Rubin is one of today’s most influential observers of happiness and human nature. In addition to hosting the award-winning podcast Happier with Gretchen Rubin, where she shares practical strategies for building a happier, healthier, more creative life, Gretchen is also the bestselling author of The Happiness Project, The Four Tendencies, Better Than Before, Life in Five Senses, and now Secrets of Adulthood, a delightful collection of her signature aphorisms—concise, thought-provoking truths gathered from her own experiences and reflections on human nature.
Today, Gretchen shares a wealth of bite-sized, digestible truths with Jen and Amy that acknowledge problems everyone faces.
“What we do every day matters more than what we do once in a while.”
“Outer order contributes to inner calm.”
“A strong voice repels as well as attracts.”
“Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.”
And our personal favorite, “Choose the bigger life.”
Gretchen also delves into the Four Tendencies and helps Jen and Amy unpack their profiles to better understand whether they are an Upholder, Questioner, Obliger, or Rebel. Anyone want to take bets?
Thought-provoking Quotes:
“Happier people are more interested in the problems of the world. And they're more interested in the problems of the people around them. They're more likely to volunteer. They're more likely to vote. They're more likely to donate their time or their money. They're more likely to help out if someone needs a hand. When we're happier, we're able to turn outward and to think about the problems of the world.” – Gretchen Rubin
“Action is the antidote to anxiety.” – Gretchen Rubin
“There’s really no more eloquent way to put this: one of the best ways to make friends is to make friends with the friends of your friends.” – Gretchen Rubin
“When we're doing something hard, it feels like the times are hard." – Gretchen Rubin
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Camino de Santiago Pilgrimage - https://santiago-compostela.net/
Secrets of Adulthood: Simple Truths for Our Complex Lives by Gretchen Rubin - https://amzn.to/4kq8TzF
The Happier App - https://thehappierapp.com/
David Sedaris
The Happiness Project: Or, Why I Spent a Year Trying to Sing in the Morning, Clean My Closets, Fight Right, Read Aristotle, and Generally Have More Fun by Gretchen Rubin - https://amzn.to/3S9OXox
The Four Tendencies Quiz - https://gretchenrubin.com/quiz/the-four-tendencies-quiz/
The English Understand Wool by Helen DeWitt - https://amzn.to/43iUOgg
The Last Samurai by Helen DeWitt - https://amzn.to/43tjDaF
5 Things Making Me Happy Newsletter - https://gretchenrubin.com/newsletter/5-things-making-me-happy-september-16-2022/
Sandwich: A Novel by Catherine Newman - https://amzn.to/4m9KGiy
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://gretchenrubin.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/gretchenrubin/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/GretchenRubin
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/GretchenRubin
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@gretchenrubin
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

May 21, 2025 • 1h 11min
Title: Maggie Smith on Art and the Gift of Our Attention
Maggie Smith, a poet and author known for her viral poem 'Good Bones,' dives into the transformative power of creativity. She discusses how writing has been her anchor through tough times and emphasizes that all decisions are inherently creative. Smith debunks the myth of the solitary artist, celebrating the importance of community in the creative process. She highlights the gift of attention, reminding us that genuine engagement with the world enhances our appreciation for beauty and art. Her insights inspire listeners to embrace their own creative journeys.

May 20, 2025 • 3min
Introducing: Aspire with Emma Grede
Discover how to build the life of your dreams with insights from elite entrepreneurs. Listen as Emma Grede dives into powerful conversations about personal growth, career strategies, and well-being. Expect impactful stories, practical tips, and data-driven advice from some of the brightest minds. This engaging dialogue not only inspires but also equips listeners with the tools to turn aspirations into reality.

May 14, 2025 • 1h 9min
A Celebration of the Women Who Made Us This Way: Melissa Radke Returns to the For the Love Podcast
Description:
Melissa Radke is the best friend you never knew you always wanted with a Texas-sized heart and sense of humor to match. She’s also an author, speaker, TV personality, and For the Love fan-favorite, best known for her gut-busting sense of humor, deep honesty, and fierce Southern sass. Melissa first gained a national following with her viral videos about parenting and real life, which led to a reality show (The Radkes) and a bestselling book (Eat Cake. Be Brave.) A fierce advocate for women finding their voice—especially in midlife—Melissa brings laughter and tears to everything she touches. Her newest project, Chicken Fried Women, a collection of stories (with a companion podcast series) celebrates the women—battered on the outside, tender on the inside, some salty, some spicy—who made us who we are.
In this life-giving conversation filled with snort-laughs and tears, we talk about:
The incredible women who raised us, taught us, prayed for us, and even humbled us when we needed it most
The stories that have become legend in our families—Melissa tells a story about her Aunt Melba helping her mother with fastening her girdle in a cramped church bathroom stall that left Jen and Amy in stitches
The friends who have shown up for us in times of crisis with remedies and solutions that we never could have fathomed for ourselves
Thought-provoking Quotes:
“I have always thought that people who have an innate gift to find and communicate humor, even in the midst of sorrow, possess a gift of healing. And I can’t number how many times I have been on the other side of someone else’s gift of humor and it has restored me in a way that literally nothing else could.” – Jen Hatmaker
“Don’t waste another second being around someone who makes you feel like you’re too much. Go sit at a different table. Find a different circle.” – Melissa Radke
“I am fully committed, as committed as I am to Christ, to the moo-moo. I make no apologies and I thank the person who rebranded it by calling it a kaftan.” – Melissa Radke
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Eat Cake & Be Brave: The Funny Formula For Life With Melissa Radke - https://bit.ly/4j29Yxm
Fierce, Free & Full of Questions: Melissa Radke Gets Jen to Tell it All - https://bit.ly/4lkzm2Q
The Radkes - https://www.usanetwork.com/the-radkes
Saturday Night Live’s Five Timer’s Club - https://www.nbc.com/nbc-insider/snl-fiver-timers-club-member-hosts
Chicken-Fried Women: Friendship, Kinship, and the Women Who Made Us This Way by Melissa Radke - https://amzn.to/3FS6azY
The Chicken Fried Women Podcast - https://www.melissaradke.com/podcast
Erma Bombeck - https://amzn.to/3DT9NoL
Leanne Morgan - https://www.leannemorgan.com/
Tina Fey - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0275486/
Amy Poehler - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0688132/
Mindy Kaling - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1411676/
She’s in Love with the Boy by Trisha Yearwood - https://open.spotify.com/track/4EJvW4NHAk7TrIeX44jjXF
Guest’s Links:
Website - https://www.melissaradke.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/msmelissaradke/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/MelissaRadkeStretchMarks/
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@MelissaRadke
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@melissaradke
Podcast - https://www.melissaradke.com/podcast
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy.
To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

May 9, 2025 • 1h 20min
Encore Matrescence: Unraveling the Myths and Realities of Being a Mother with Lucy Jones
Description:
…Today we’re revisiting the profound biological, psychological and social shifts experienced when becoming a mother - a process known as "matrescence.” Jen sits down with science journalist Lucy Jones, who experienced a seismic identity shift that arose after the birth of her first child.
Lucy and Jen unpack groundbreaking neuroscience research and they expose the deep-rooted myths and unrealistic expectations surrounding modern motherhood. From the minimizing of postpartum struggles to the pressure of "natural birthing" ideals, Lucy reveals how these systemic fictions can breed shame, isolation and maternal mental health crises.
Jen and Lucy discuss:
The concept of "matrescence" - the biological, psychological and social transition to becoming a mother that renders profound identity changes
How modern cultural myths and idealized notions of motherhood as blissful and "natural" can be deeply alienating and contribute to maternal mental health issues
The systemic lack of scientific research and societal rituals to prepare and support women through the seismic transformation of matrescence
The need to construct new narratives, share vulnerable experiences, and build community care around the modern realities of the matrescence
* * *
Thought-Provoking Quotes:
“[Matrescence] is a very simple concept that means the process of becoming a mother. The word is a little bit like 'adolescence'. It was coined by the late American anthropologist Dana Rafael in the 70's. She also coined the word 'doula'. She first wrote about it in an essay collection published in 1974 where she talks about how, in most societies and cultures across the world, people have always had a sense that a mother is born when a baby is born. But she also describes your identity, your social relationships, your roles, your everyday life, your mind, your psychology, and your emotions." - Lucy Jones
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
Matrescence by Lucy Jones – Read here
Foxes Unearthed by Lucy Jones – Read here
Losing Eden by Lucy Jones – Read here
Dana Raphael (American Anthropologist) – Learn more
“The Birth of a Mother” by Alexandra Sacks (NYT article) – Read here
2017 NIH Study on Pregnancy and the Brain – Read here
Of Woman Born by Adrienne Rich – Read here
Andrea O’Reilly (Motherhood scholar) – Learn more
Guest’s Links:
Lucy’s Website: lucyfjones.com
Lucy’s X: @lucyjones
Instagram: @lucyfjones
Facebook: Lucy Jones Books
Connect with Jen!Jen’s Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/
Jen’s Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen’s Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/
Jen’s Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen’s YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker
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