The Messy City Podcast

I join my favorite Akron-ite, Jason Segedy, in Akron, to talk about northeast Ohio, Strong Towns, and generational roles. We do this while sitting outside a former major tire factory, in the tire capital of the world. What a cool scene it was. It makes me think I need video for these discussions.Jason and I seem to have a lot in common, and he’s the kind of person I can chat with for hours. As I told him toward the end, I also just really love and admire people who love their town. It’s become such a rare quality these days, so perhaps I just notice it more. But it’s energizing and endearing to find people who have a deep love affair with place.We spend a fair amount of time talking generational issues, and no small amount critiquing our own cohort - Generation X. What’s next for us? Will our age group step up to be the adults in the room, or will we lean into our well-earned cynicism and be lifelong critics?Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Returning guests from last year discuss KC real estate challenges, exurban development, drug store closures, and urban beauty. They emphasize the need for better urban development, beauty in architecture, and inclusivity in the industry.

Every so often, I get into the personal advice game. Perhaps it’s a side effect of being a father, as well as hitting a point in life where you’ve seen and done a lot. I like to share whatever wisdom I’ve learned, in the vain hopes that someone else can benefit from my experience. That’s especially true for younger people who have a passion for cities, for development, and for making beautiful places. Along those lines, in this episode, I discuss my pet peeve with the word “they,” how to think about issues in your community, and what I’ve learned about external locus of control vs internal locus of control. Get building, get positive and work towards a better future.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Transcript:Kevin K (00:01.26)Welcome back to the Messy City podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. Thanks for joining me. It's been a while since I've had the opportunity to do a solo podcast and just talk about a few things that are going on and some thoughts in my mind. And today seemed to work out really well for that in this week. So I'm going to share a few things that are going on and hopefully give you a little bit of inspiration in your day.If it doesn't inspire you, you can send me a note as well and say, hey, you were completely off base there or lost and that's fine too. Of course, I can't help but record these now and think about my friend Chuck Morrone's comments about my own voice and how things sound. I think if you do anything like this, you're the kind of person you probably never liked the sound of your own voice, but it's good to know that others respond to it and like it.And I'm happy to keep doing these. There's a lot going on right now. There is coming up here in May is the Strong Towns National Gathering followed by the Congress for the New Urbanism. It's a big deal in the urbanism world. Those annual confabs, which I have gone to for a number of years. Don't know that I'll keep going to those indefinitely, but I still think there's value in that or similar groups like them.depending on what your own interest is. I'm also keenly aware that the National Town Builders Association does a couple great get togethers every year. Those are, that tend to be people more on the development side, as well as the Urban Guild, which is a group that I'm a little bit affiliated with as well, which is mostly designers and architects, but it's a lot of people doing really, really cool stuff to try to make the world a more beautiful and better place.They have a get -together coming up this later later this year in November, which will be in Huntsville, Alabama And I'm gonna try to make it to that as well. Don't know if I can do all these things. It's a challenge when you've got a family and work and everything else, but I do always enjoy getting together with colleagues and learning about what other people are doing Figuring out what I can take back to my own community and just getting inspired from other people. SoKevin K (02:28.844)I have always enjoyed that. I suppose it appeals to the extroverted nature that I have. But I certainly enjoy getting that inspiration from others. So I want to talk a little bit today on a different tack. This is not necessarily a new subject locally, but it's something that's been on my mind. And bear with me as I go through this, but there's a new...There's a new attraction in Kansas City that opened late last year. We are among many cities now in that we have a Ferris wheel near the downtown area because you know how these things are, all the trends come and go and activities come and go. And right now it seems like every city has to have a Ferris wheel, a big Ferris wheel for people to get up and view the whole city and everything else. And, and, uh,I've been on it, it's kind of fun. I understand why people like them and they're visually very distinct and interesting. The first notable one I can remember that was new, I guess, was in London, which was pretty striking. I remember at the time thinking, well, that was kind of strange, but now it's gone into the realm of common and you see these attractions popping up just about everywhere.But what really interested me was the response to the Ferris wheel in the local community and the discussion boards and everything else. Actually, when I say discussion boards, it almost sounds like an old man's term at this point, but probably more, I guess I would say on social media, which is where a lot of conversation happens. And it's fascinating just how negative.the reaction was to me. And I think one of the things that I most commonly heard, where there were two things really, which is why did they put that there? And why did the city fund that instead of fixing the streets? So all interesting for me because it's all very telling about how people react to projects, building structures that are built.Kevin K (04:52.044)in a community. And I want to talk about that for a minute and what it means for each of us and what I think we, what mindset I think we need to have that is more productive if we want to really improve our own communities. So, you know, I don't, I'm not one to ever really assail people or blame people for the thoughts that come out of their mouths because, or because this is,the world we live in, the world we live in is driven by the experience that people have had over many years. Development, in the development world, we've gone to from a place where development was almost entirely private sector 100 years ago to now where there's an enormous amount of public sector development or public -private partnerships that happen. There's an awful lot of things that happen now.through government and from the top down that never would have happened 100 years ago. And I say all that because it really came to mind when hearing people talk about the Ferris wheel project. The first one being, why do we have that Ferris wheel when we could have been fixing the potholes? Well, the Ferris wheel in this case, in our city, was a private development. This was an enterprise that a local developerbought the land for, came up with the plan, financed it and built it. This is not a city project. So it's kind of easy for us to, who know that sort of thing, to then just mock people for being stupid, right? You're stupid. How do you not know that that's like a private project? But I get it because we do have so many things nowadays that are in fact either driven directly,by city government, have a partnership with city government, or require city government approval to happen. And it's very easy, I think, for a lay person who is not in the design, development, construction world to not understand that and to think everything is a city project. But in this case, and probably like many others around the country, this was just a local entrepreneur.Kevin K (07:18.764)doing a project with land he owned that that he expects to make a profit on with this attraction and a whole series of attractions next to it that actually seemed kind of cool and I'm excited to see how this all builds out over the next year or so as he continues to build it and and that really kind of tied into the to the other comment which is you know, why did they build it there? and I admitI want to admit right up front, I have a real pet peeve. And that pet peeve is the word they. And this is something I've had for a long time. And I wrestle with this because I hear it all the time. And it's just this notion that there is some group of people out there that just make all these decisions for what happens in your community.whether that's city council people or people in private rooms or whatever. But we have arrived at this place where we just all tend to think that there is a they that can be either blamed or praised for whatever goes on. And I find that really troubling because it's not a they. This was a person. This was a person and his development team.That made the decisions and and built this thing and that's very common In our city there. I hear this so often, you know, why did why did they build that apartment complex? and You know our city does this and this why do they do that? And I think there's this this thing there's this thing this phrase that my wife has taught me from psychology which is called external locus of control andThe notion being that if you kind of give up control of a lot of things in your own life and decisions, you have essentially given that control over to others. That's an external locus of control as to an internal locus of control, which is saying I am responsible for my actions and what happens and what I see and do in my life. An external locus of control means like, eh, you know,Kevin K (09:41.996)I'm just gonna let whatever happens happens. And I think we all balance this in our own lives or we can't possibly control everything. But I also think it's kind of led to this symptom where we see where we often think there is a they out there that is imposing their will on me or on us. And that's just not.Even in our very complicated world, that's not how it works. But again, I don't necessarily blame people for thinking that because we have gotten to this place where there is so much often confusion about who is doing what and who is responsible for what. There are politicians who even if they didn't do something, they try to take credit for it. That's long been a standard in politics is to deflect the blame and accept.you know, accept the compliments for whatever happens. You know, if something is good, name it and claim it, whether you had anything to do with it or not. And I think that gives the impressions that the impression that politicians and public sector people often have way more control over what happens in a community than they really do. And so I really wish we could get away from that thinking and that use of the word they.And to really just talk more specifically about who exactly has done something. Why, you know, who is that individual that took it upon themselves to create that project and why. And it's funny because in this case, the Ferris wheel in Kansas city is in a bit of an odd location. If you, if you go there, it's right next to a freeway. It does provide a great view of downtown when you're up on the Ferris wheel. And it's neat before this in front of the skyline, but it's right next to a freeway, which is a little odd.And I can imagine a series of other locations in the city where the same thing would have been really cool and better. And in fact, there is a major park nearby that is up on a hill would have been an incredible site for it. But the parks department didn't pursue that route. They didn't try to do a project or this project. And instead you have a developer who did and who took it upon themselves to do it.Kevin K (12:08.076)And that was the place where he had the opportunity to make it work. And I hope, I really hope it works. I think it will work. I think it's going to be a cool attraction and sort of entertainment area for the city, but that's how those things go. And I want to, I just want to encourage all of us to kind of get beyond this notion that there is a they out there. And, and one thing that I, I would just add to this is that, um,You know, it kind of feeds into a mindset. I think when you approach something like, they are doing something to me, or they are doing this, they are doing that, it can kind of feed into a real negative feedback loop that can be a real trap for people in a community. Because there's always something going on. There are things to not like and things to like.And I think that every community, every society has problems and we want to try to solve problems. And we're a time and a place where I think a lot of our cities do have problems. And I would never be the first to say otherwise. We have a lot of issues and things to resolve. I mean, in my opinion, the worst of our problems tend to come from kind of a utopian thinking.coupled with the desire to force utopian ideas from the top down on people who maybe aren't ready for it and are often very bad ideas. But that said, I really hope that we can kind of find a way to avoid the forces and the voices of negativity. And I think that use of the word they,almost always leads to like a negative mindset and a negative commentary. And again, as the idea that your locus of control is outside you for your community and for your neighborhood, as opposed to thinking about ways that you and others can take control yourselves and just do things and do positive things for your place. So one of the things that I would just say is, you know,Kevin K (14:33.516)try not to give in to the voices of negativity, doom and gloom, and grievance. Sometimes it seems to me as if we have a grievance industrial complex in our country that there are people who have so many grievances about life or society, but they move from issue to issue and they carry with them the same anger, the same...sort of negative vibes, no matter what the concern or topic is. And that's problematic. It's problematic for the person, I would say. I once heard a quote, I can't remember who said it, but it's something to the effect of, bitterness is a poison that you think you can use it against your enemies, but ultimately it ends up destroying you.And I think there's a lot of truth to that. There have been things in my life that I have been bitter about and I have wrestled with internally. And I have had to learn that that bitterness that I might've been holding onto was actually causing me physical harm. And that physical harm might've been something minor like just like loss of sleep and loss of sleep turning into...negative moods or whatever, but it also might be something more that you get so consumed by negative thoughts that it's very hard for you to do anything constructive in your life or to be somebody that others want to be around and to do good things with. And so I would just humbly suggest that as much as you could, especially if you're a younger person,embrace a positive vision for the future. And there's a very popular sort of meme going around lately that's just about we need to be building things. We need to build more things. And I think that's true. I think we're in, I think we're kind of coming, I hope we're coming out of an era where there's a lot of vitriol and negativity.Kevin K (16:58.156)which presents an incredible opportunity for people who have a positive vision of what the future could be and what to do about it. And to actually build yourself up, to build others up around you, to build things physically. So obviously, a lot of what I talk about on this podcast is about designing, building, developing things. And I think there's unbelievable opportunity.for anybody in any walk of life to get into a place where you're actually participating in building something physical, which is an, there are just immense emotional rewards for seeing that happen. So as somebody who was trained as an architect, I obviously love that very much. But I think for anybody that I see, whatever it is, the more you can create things and build things physically,is incredibly just valuable to yourself as well as people beyond you. Right now, or even I would say the last decade, there have been so many very, very loud voices that seem to push the other way and think we shouldn't be building things in that. I would just say specific to the world that I know the best.that developers are evil and they're awful and they're money grabbing people and we need to take our pound of flesh as much as we can and punish them. And there's just an awful lot of vitriol and hatred of developers and of development that is, in the end, it kind of reflects that problem with bitterness because...People are going to build things. And if you and your community embrace an attitude that developers and development is bad, you are creating a recipe for your own decline, ultimately. Just in the same way that carrying bitterness from something that happened years ago can really lead to just personal harm, carrying bitterness towards change for the future is only going to make your place.Kevin K (19:17.516)less and less relevant and less attractive to others who want to have a positive future. So that doesn't mean of course, and I feel like I always have to qualify this and say it that like, that doesn't mean all development is great and all, you know, and I love all of it. There's a lot of terrible development. There's a lot of, there's a lot of bad architects. There's a lot of bad developers. There's bad buildings that are built. We should always try to and strive.to do as good a job as we possibly can to try to build beauty in our world. I'm a firm believer in that building beauty is so deeply important. It's for the human spirit and for life in communities. And we don't talk nearly enough about building beautiful things, building beautiful places. Even if you're not in the building world, something as simple as planting a flower garden that adds beauty to the world.is incredible. It's so important. And I wish we all could do a little bit more of that. So of course do good things, but you have to have this attitude of improvement and positivity and that activity in the world is a good thing. And that a utopian aim, while maybe it comes from a good place, is something to be deeply concerned about, especially when somebody is pushing their utopian aim.on somebody else. So build yourself up, build others up around you, challenge yourself to get better all the time. This is kind of a funny sidebar, but I've definitely read my share probably of self -help stuff in my life, because I think I'm probably the kind of person that's always looking for ways to just improve what I'm...whatever I'm doing, maybe optimize a little bit. But I do, I have at different points in my life challenged myself to do things that were uncomfortable, that I was not good at, that I didn't really have in my background. And often did that just as a way to force myself to do something that maybe was uncomfortable. I am by no means, you know, like,Kevin K (21:43.244)some of the more intense really optimizers and everything else in the world. But, you know, for example, when I was a kid, I was a very unhealthy, a very sickly kid. I had asthma that was really, it was actually life -threatening for me as a child. And I eventually with time, with some medication and with growth,basically outgrew it. But I didn't really start to fully outgrow it until I was like almost out of like high school, I would say. And so there was a lot of like athletic stuff that I just wasn't really able to fully participate in when I was a young person, because I just didn't have the stamina, the long stamina to get through things. So when I got older, when I turned 40,I resolved that I wanted to, I had started to do a little bit of long distance running and resolved that I wanted to run a half marathon, which of course I had never run any distance anywhere close to it before. And I actually completed my first half marathon when I was 41 and I did it three years in a row. And actually each year improved my time from the year before.And all of that was a tremendous physical challenge for me to do because I had never been a long distance runner. Um, but I will tell you the feeling that I got from that when I would complete those races and the memory that was still with me about, uh, how challenging it was just for me to breathe. When I was a kid, the fact that I could overcome and do those things, it meant a lot to me. And it gave me.a lot of confidence and the feeling that if I could do that, I could do other things as well. Lately, I've been doing something similar and I don't like to talk too much here about just personal things that are going on. But now that I'm into my fifties, I have been trying some things that have also been challenging for me. And so I've been doing some martial arts stuff the last couple of years. And this year I've actually started.Kevin K (24:07.5)doing jujitsu classes in earnest for the first time. And that has not been my world at all. I mean, when I go to these classes and I take a beating and it's hard and you know, you learn all the things that are going on. You know, this is not the world that I came from where of, you know, wrestling and combatives and that sort of thing.but I have really learned to enjoy it. And especially with the jujitsu training, the more I go, the more I just really get into it and enjoy what I'm learning. And the feeling that I get of it making me stronger and more capable, and the fact that, you know, that it's hard, and it is really hard, that it's hard, but I can...get through a class and even if it's a rough day or whatever, afterwards I have this feeling that I really did something. And so I share that again just to say that it's important to challenge ourselves to do better, to try to, sometimes maybe to push on things in your own personality and your own world that you know that you struggle with or that are not your thing.And I'm a firm believer in trying to push through some of your weaknesses whenever you can and challenge yourselves and have that vision that, yes, I can overcome things. I can do things. And embrace a vision that you are capable of doing a lot of things. So, you know, being, I understand why a lot of people are very risk averse and you kind of get in a lane and you just stay in that lane.in your life. But being too risk averse can really prevent incredible self -improvement. And you can miss out on a lot of successes in life that you probably never knew that you were even capable of. That's not to say like be reckless and just take any risk you want. Of course not. But don't be fearful either. And really lean towardsKevin K (26:31.372)this notion of building yourself up and then building others up along the way. Because the more you build yourself up, you will find that people are drawn to that. People want positive things to cling onto and to take themselves along for a ride for something that's good and interesting and positive. People like to build things. And I...And I often think that we don't talk enough about how people like to overcome difficulty. And so difficulty in and of itself is not a bad thing. I think it can often be a really good thing. And so push through that difficulty as Bono might say, don't let the b******s grind you down. Right? So.That's were a few thoughts for today. I think one last thing. I have no idea where this is going to go, but in the spirit of, again, pushing through and trying to do things, I had a personal interest in real estate development since I was a college kid, and maybe even younger. I don't know. It's hard to remember at this point. But.But there were so many steps along the way where I could have taken a risk to do something. And I took a few, but I just never really fully dived into that to see what I was capable of. And I think what for me is that that lesson is you tend to regret the things you didn't do more than the things that you did do. And I certainly regret that when I was younger, I didn't take more risks and more proactive steps to push through.my lack of knowledge, my own questions about risk when it came to maybe developing some of my own building projects. So this week I actually put in an offer on a commercial property for the first time that I have ever done. I've never done this before. Sent a letter of intent over to purchase something. I don't know if anything will come of it. I hope something will come of it. I have a great idea for a project.Kevin K (28:52.62)on the site. It's not a terribly large project. I think it's kind of in a wheelhouse that I can execute really well, a fairly small project. But I'm challenging myself to push through my own aversion to just taking that next step. And we'll see what happens. So hopefully something comes of it, and I'll be able to share some details as it goes.And if not, there will probably be another opportunity right around the corner. And that's the message that I would hope to share is there's always opportunity around the corner. Don't think so much about who they are and what they are doing and think so much about you and what you are doing, what you can do, what you and your friends or others or your family can do. And have that internal locus of control and...Don't imagine that the world does everything to you. Create your own world in the process. Thanks so much for listening. If you wouldn't mind sharing the podcast, hitting the like or follow button on your favorite app and encouraging others to do the same, I'd really appreciate it. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. This is the Messy City Podcast. Be talking to you soon. Bye. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Charles Marohn, President and Founder of Strong Towns, discusses his newest book 'Escaping The Housing Trap' and the Strong Towns National Gathering. Topics include rethinking city building and financing sports facilities, urban design reflections on Disney World, and origins of Walt Disney in Missouri. The conversation also touches on the need for affordable housing policies and strategic public investments in stadium construction.

Butch Rigby is a long-time Kansas City developer, small business promoter, and city booster. We decided to sit down and talk about the looming ballot initiative on April 2, and the pros and cons of the current proposal for moving the Royals to the Crossroads neighborhood. You can listen to more of Butch’s story in this podcast.Another podcast of interest is this discussion with Philip Bess, and our work together to save Fenway Park.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend”Episode Transcript:Kevin (00:00.644)Welcome back to the messy city podcast. I've got a returning guest, butch Rigby here, otherwise known as Kansas city's George Bailey, as I've described my, uh, my longtime friend and, uh, and partner in crime on, uh, Kansas city issues, downtown development issues, et cetera. And, uh, Bush, it's great to see you. Oh, Kevin. It's always great to be here. Matter of fact, it.feeling like Savannah, Georgia. It is. I mean, it's already in the 70s and it was the 70s in February or something. That was crazy. So I know everything's blooming. All the stuff I planted last fall is looking good. So I'm happy. I was worried that everything bloomed too early and it was going to get frozen out. But I don't think so. I know. I think we're like straight into lake season pretty soon. So that's all right. Well, butch, I wanted to have you in today to talk about.the baseball stadium issue in particular, because it's a hot topic here locally. There is a proposal on the ballot coming up in April here in Kansas City and Jackson County to extend a sales tax, an existing sales tax that will expire in a few years.to help fund a new baseball stadium for the Royals in a downtown location in the Crossroads area. And then also provide funding for the Chiefs for a series of improvements to Arrowhead. And Butch and I go way back on this issue. We had a lot of fun years ago talking about the potential for downtown baseball when we were both volunteering with the Urban Society of Kansas City.That's correct. That's right. Shout out to all of our urban society buddies. Oh yeah. They knew who they are. And I think it's interesting, maybe where we could start Butch is to kind of put things in context for what we talked about. That was probably now 20 years ago when we were getting involved in that. Just about. Yeah. And so that was when the Glass family owned the Royals. And...Kevin (02:16.186)Downtown was coming along, but it was still a little bit more in its infancy of redeveloping. And there was a push on the part of a lot of people to try to get the Royals to consider coming downtown. And we took on this crazy volunteer task of looking at all the different sites that there were downtown and trying to get people to analyze them and...put their thoughts together. That was, in retrospect, that was kind of a wild thing. And we had a couple hundred people who volunteered with it, as far as I remember, right? We did. And, you know, of course you have to remember 30 years ago when I bought my first building down in what was then Film Row, 19th and Wyandotte, you know, before the days of Crossroads, it was a ghost town. And I'm not kidding. I mean, it was literally...On a Friday night, we would hold these Christmas and July parties to celebrate the history of Film Row. And we were the only thing going on down there. Now, you know, we were begging for tenants. I had a few buildings that I bought and I was having a challenge keeping a coffee shop tenant open. Certainly wasn't, you know, having any luck with restaurants or anything like that. That's just natural when you've had, you know, a big daytime population in office towers in the, inside the loop.Uh, but you really have, uh, I think we had 2 ,500 residences downtown, which isn't enough to support really anything. Yeah. And, uh, you know, at that time, uh, you know, kind of spin forward a dozen years or so, and, uh, things are happening. You know, they're announcing, uh, you know, the, the big push for the, not only the power and light, but to get H &R blocked downtown to do, uh, get the Sprint Center downtown. And, uh, we held the halfway.mark of the development at Screenland at my theater for a while. And, you know, that was a time when we were all thinking, hey, there are several good options for baseball because it meant more and more people making downtown what it used to be. 30 years before I was there, everything was downtown. Shopping was downtown. Movies were downtown. If you wanted to see a first run picture, it was downtown. It was a destination for a reason.Kevin (04:38.482)And that was gone. And so we saw that opportunity. And of course, back then, like you say, there were probably eight good sites because, you know, they were going to be kind of on their own and developed around them as opposed to the new, the new situation. Now, when we have a, an owner who really wants to be downtown and reflects that same passion for a good, strong downtown, um, you know, they're limited to a couple of sites and they have to take into consideration.all of the other ancillary effects of the Royals being down there. And of course the ancillary effects of the reason that I support a downtown stadium. So I think you're one of the people that I really would enjoy talking to about this because you have your interests across many areas. And so obviously you care about the city and about the downtown and the urban core.but you also have an almost unimpeachable track record of caring about everything local, Kansas City, small businesses. And as we look at the proposal that's on the table today, and that's really been, I think, about the primary source of controversy has been that the Royals have chosen a site in the Crossroads area. It's funny, they keep calling, you know, in the paper keeps calling it like the East Crossroads. I think of it.personally like North Crossroads, if you want to call it that. It's literally the edge of downtown, edge of the loop. The loop hopefully will be erased. But no, I mean, look, I'm in business to make money. I always have been. But I don't believe real estate is a commodity. I don't believe you just develop strip centers. I mean, there's a business doing that, but it's not what excites me. What excites me is the challenge of empty buildings becoming full.I mean, when I was down in the crossroads back in 94, my friends just couldn't understand it. They go, it's dead down there. And I thought, well, you know, they got to do something with Union Station. They've got to do something with that big piece of land, maybe a hotel at 17th and Central, you know, and why not? And of course, things got better. We get the Performing Arts Center, world -class, and the Union Station was completely renovated.Kevin (06:59.762)And a lot of things happened that in unison, but we were always able to maintain old buildings, small tenancies. To this day, I have, you know, 14 buildings. I have 200 tenants. They're all small businesses. And those tenants range from single office tenants to small restaurants, to law firms, to salons. I mean, you know, 63rd street, for example, between Oak and Rock Hill.was 70 % vacant as a corridor in 2014. And now we're 100 % occupied and it's all small business. And small business got us through COVID. Small business stayed. They're resilient. You know, they're not making corporate decisions from afar. So, you know, being downtown, a lot of people say, well, how could you possibly want the baseball stadium in the crossroads? And, you know, I was initially,like everybody else, assuming the East Village was the spot. It made all the sense. You could do $2 billion worth of development. And I slowly came around to understand why the location they picked was the one they picked, and this is before they announced it. But I started thinking about the fact that the city of Kansas City is responsible for tax shortfalls, sales tax shortfalls at the Power and Light District and all that development. And, you know,That's just part of the deal. I mean, if you really look at all the ancillary revenues they get because of the effects of the Paranlight district, it's probably still a positive for the city. However, why would you try to be far enough away that people get there, park, go to a few bars around there and leave and create competition for yourself? Where the location they picked is for the most part, the Kansas city star building.a newer church building that already they've outgrown, a lot of vacant ground, and then a block of buildings that of course, most people would like to see them not tear those buildings down, but in any development, you will lose some buildings. And they do have to have some ancillary space for parking, for season ticket parking, for offices, a little revenue from a hotel, things to offset the cost.Kevin (09:24.914)And so I started looking at it and I said, it's also two blocks from the streetcar as opposed to eight blocks. And if we are going to grow our habit and try to get a, you know, what we call an intermodal transportation option, that is non -car options downtown, whether it be Uber or the streetcar or other forms of transportation, you know, we've got to encourage people to use the streetcar. We've got to encourage people to use Uber. So.It became apparent to me that the Kansas City Star Building was going to do nothing. And, you know, so I did come to support it. Now, do I support it unconditionally? No, I think there are some challenges that they must deal with and get out in front of. Parking is the number one. Security is a close second. Respect for the people who are being displaced is probably up there at a tie for number one. And,You know, I've had some talks, I've had some opportunities to talk to the Royals and to talk to the architects. And I do genuinely believe that John Sherman wants to do the right thing. I do believe John Sherman does not want chain restaurants. He's a Kansas City guy. People treat him like he's some hedge fund billion around New York who just landed in our town. No, he's, he lives in Jackson County. He's very charitable. He and his wife are very involved in the community.and always have been, and I think it's really almost unfair to characterize him just because you're mad about a baseball stadium. And so I have felt that the location is good. And I think it makes a lot more sense, especially if the funding can be extended to cover the freeway another three blocks, or two blocks, whatever the extension of the freeway cover is, because then you genuinely...have a walkable community. Yeah. I mean, I think if we just talk about the location, just for a second, just that aspect, I feel like I was one of the few people that never liked the East Village site. Yeah. And I always felt like that site was too far from the streetcar. Kansas City is not New York. We're not used to.Kevin (11:42.418)We don't have a population used to taking public transportation and walking long distances. And so if we ever, my feeling was if you really wanted people to use the streetcar as an amenity to get back and forth to games, which would be a good thing for the city. Oh, absolutely. Because then people could populate the entire urban core. They could park it at the plaza. They could park at the riverfront, you know, any number of places and then hop on the streetcar and get there. And I think that would be a good thing for our city.But I've always felt like it needed to be much closer than the East Village site was. Not to mention, the East Village site is surrounded by a bunch of government buildings, which basically close at four or five o 'clock. It's kind of a dead zone downtown. And then east of there, you've got a lot of just really social service issues that are really problematic for thinking about the kind of atmosphere.that you have in a ball game. And so I think from that standpoint, I was never in love with the East Philly site. And so when they announced the Crossroads site, I think if I were looking at it like if it was a blank slate, if all of that was empty today, it makes a lot of sense. And because it's proximity to so many other things, proximity to Power and Light District.the ability for all those things to build off of each other, which is something we talked about years ago, like the virtues of an urban ballpark is it becomes like a one plus one equals three situation for entertainment and other uses. And so it seemed to me like the major issues from the site standpoint were the existing businesses that are being displaced. I didn't care about the Casey Star Building at all. I think it's hideous. I'd be happy to see it gone, but.I know not everybody agrees with me on that, but I think it's hideous. But there are all those, you know, a number of really cool businesses that you and I have probably both been to and really enjoy in that area. And so it's kind of a question of like what happens, what happens to them? Well, and I couldn't. Oh, that's okay. I'll edit that out. Nice ringtone. Yeah, I thought I turned it off. Sorry about that. I forgot to turn it off. Anyway.Kevin (14:03.058)I couldn't agree more. You you have the displacement of those businesses is a big deal. Yeah. Um, and you know, the Royals will have to step up and I believe they will. And I believe they've made this indication. They will step up and not only make those businesses whole, but make sure they can relocate close. If not better, uh, they can, uh, you know, whether it be rent deficiencies or anything else they have to do to make sure those businesses can thrive.Um, you know, in a perfect world, yeah, you'd like to leave Oak street and leave those businesses and actually encapsulate them as part of the stadium. But it's my understanding that, you know, the new green dirt farm might be in right field. And, uh, and that's probably one of the tougher ones. Sure. Um, the green dirt farm, they've invested incredible amount of money and a lot of time and a lot of effort and they're getting ready to open after, you know, it's not easy to set up a cheese making. Oh, and there's such a phenomenon.They are such a phenomenal business. But the Royals are very well aware of that. And they do have, I think they do have time under the construction schedules to relocate them and pay for all of the things they will need to do to get them back up and running again and hopefully even better. But it, you know, it's important to note that, you know, while if you skip that block, you know,does the stadium become as self -sufficient as it should be? And remember, there's a billion dollars in private money going into this project. To me, I do listen to some of the bar owners and people who have been very vocal about how opposed they are to it.And I get it. I empathize. I, I, I, you know, I will tell you, I own a building at 1701 McGee down the crossroads. It faces what will be the new baseball stadium. And we are going to be in the direct impact zone of construction. I mean, all my tenants are going to have to be facing all the perils of a, you know, a billion dollar project going up directly across the street. Um, I think that the, uh, you know, Royals have already announced they have.Kevin (16:15.474)construction management plans, they intend on busing workers in from remote lots. I mean, all of these things will go a long way to help. Some people will say, oh, well, you'll make so much money because you own the building. No, the building is rented. It's always been rented. I'm not changing tenants. I just signed a seven -year lease extension knowing the ballpark was slated for that spot with a small office tenant who's, they're part of the church next door and I give them a discounted rent and always have.You know, I've locked myself into a long -term deal and I won't ever walk away from any of my tenants. I mean, you know, you spoke earlier, I genuinely do believe in small business and I genuinely, you know, I know that I would never rent one of my buildings, you know, to a national credit tenant to, you know, to get double the rent and kick out a local business. I just, just, I'm not in the business, you know.purely for the money. I make money. I will be the first to say I've been very fortunate with my business success, but really that's due to all my small tenants. I don't remember that those are the ones that brought me here, you know. And so when I do support the baseball stadium where it is, I do that with an absolute solid belief that it will benefit the Crossroads. I think that we do have to, you know, maybe,create a permit street parking for businesses only, or maybe you hand out scan cards for the day so it can't be baseball parking, but at the same time, identify parking structures. Don't just announce to the public, oh, we've got enough parking, we've done a study. I mean, I'm here from the government, I'm here to help you. I mean, we probably do need to get some very,clear messaging out there that there are a lot of people in the crossroads who do support the Royals. But we've got to back it up with understanding the real issues people fear. There's a lot of work there to do on a lot of those logistics. And I would say for anybody also curious about Butch's background on the previous podcast that I had him on, we kind of walked through his whole story starting from the very beginning. And I think it's really interesting. I actually think it'sKevin (18:36.882)for especially a lot of young people to think about a career path. So I think one of the other aspects of all this, I guess I want to come back a little bit to the small business side of things and putting your real estate hat on. And if you were advising the Royals on like how to handle the real estate side of helping those small businesses, because,I would imagine most of them are most, if not all, are probably tenants. They probably don't own their buildings. So they're on a lease of some kind. So like if the Royals buy the property, the building owner gets paid. And then the business, you know, they're like, okay, you got to move somewhere. What are the sorts of things that the Royals could do or that, you know, you might think about from a real estate standpoint for a tenant in that situation? Well, of course, you know,The tenant has rights under a lease, you know, just because the Royals buy the building. If they are forcing or condemning the tenant out of the space, then they have a financial obligation. This is just, you know, pure legal talk. They, you know, they have a financial obligation to make the tenant whole again. And that goes without saying. And, you know, condemnation is not like the old days. It's not a popular thing. They do have the rights of condemnation and you need them. But,You know, they're very, very much skewed toward the person being purchased or bought out or put out of business. Now, with that said, if I were advising the Royals and I think they listen to this, I think they feel similarly, if you're going to look at the budget and you're going to look at the overall scheme of how much things are going to cost, you know, you might be able to get carpeting at a little lower cost with a lot of work and competitive bid. You might be able to get a lot of different things and, you know, save money.This is on a place to start trying to cut costs. This is a place that you get a little more than generous for a lot of reasons. The number one, because it's the right thing to do. A small bar owner's bar is as important to her as the Kansas City Royals baseball team are to the ownership group. It's like I say about small office tenants. I pay just as much attention to a single tenant user because from the perspective of both small businesses,Kevin (21:01.17)This is their life and they probably work just as hard as the Royals do, you know, and, and, and the chiefs and everybody else. And so treat them with not only fairness, but with a generous nature. Now, if any, you know, they've got to have, you know, it's gotta be reasonable. They've got to have some, um, you know, financials to back up, you know, their business and they've got to be paid. But, you know, I, I'd say to the Royals, you know, let's get out in front of this right now.And I also think the general public needs to see who the Royals are. I mean, right now they're, you know, they're, they're working hard. I've, I've had some interactions with them and I have found it to be positive. I was at the Crossroads Community Association meeting and while it was a rather, you know, lively meeting for the most part, we put together a community benefits agreement. You know, some of the things we thought were important that the Royals needed to hear about.public safety, architectural integrity within the neighborhood. And I think there's gonna be a pretty good community benefits agreement announced pretty soon. There is the Community Improvement District, which is a, if you get 51 % of the owners of the property around there to agree to it, you combine a small sales tax and a property tax.and you start employing security guards and trash pickup and cleanup. Well, the Royals could be a big part of that. And I would advise the Royals give back more than you get. In other words, you know what, you're going to participate in security on game night. Why don't you participate in a security patrol seven nights a week? All of a sudden the crossroads is that much better off because the Royals were there. If you're going to participate in, you know, parking and, and, you know, some of the, uh, you know, you're going to,park cars there, why don't you help participate in identifying or maybe even building a little bit of parking. You know, some of it for the neighborhood. There's a, I believe the ballpark site also includes, you know, a rather decent sized lot on Locust and during construction, make that open to all, you know, of the neighbors to park in during construction. There's a lot of things they could do that would be a very small percentage of the budget.Kevin (23:24.178)that would be very helpful to the neighborhood in the long run and alleviate some of the concerns. Yeah. How do you, how do you think about the parking question? Let's say when the stadium is done. And I know you and I probably think similarly about parking, but we're, we think differently than most people think. And I think your, your average Kansas city is obviously very used to the situation today.at sports complex and it's easy, it's not cheap anymore, but it's easy and you can see the stadium and everything else. Parking in a downtown situation is really different and there is a lot of parking downtown. There's actually a whole lot of existing parking in garages and on streets, but there's also more and more competition for that use, especially depending on, you know,the time of day that a game might, that people might actually start coming to a game. So how do you, how would you think about that? How do you talk about that issue with other people? Well, when I am talking about the issue, of course, the number one fear that comes up is, Hey, on game night, I might as well shut down the record bar. I might as well shut down the brick or I might as well shut down my business. It isn't particularly catering to baseball crowds, you know? Um, and, and, uh, because.No one's going to come down to the ballpark or down to the, to the crossroads if they feel that, well, it's a ball game, there'll be no parking and I'm not going to go pay $20 to park to go get a beer or listen to music. So, you know, my first thought is we must have a restrictive street parking, you know, program in place. And, you know, if, if, if we need to be, we'll be a little progressive about it at the same time, let's identify clearly identify on an app.that you can look at on your phone, that any website you can look at that says, here are your parking garages, touch the parking garage. It'll tell you how many spaces are available. We're reserve a space right now. Once people feel comfortable where they like to park and where they want to be downtown and they know where they're going, they're going to have a whole lot more, you know, ease in, in, in going to the game. I remember when I was a kid, I went to the, I'mKevin (25:45.778)This will tell you how old I am. I went to the Kansas City A's game at municipal and my dad knew just the right guy to park in his lawn for 25 cents. And we did it every game. But I mean, you know, that, that idea that, that, uh, you familiarize the general public. Um, there's going to be a lot of our population that just is really going to be resistive to going down, down to a ball game. But then there's a whole new generation. They're just used to it. They go down there. And I think the, the job will be.clearly identify that available parking to clearly put it on a map, let people see it. You know, we're from Missouri, show me. Yeah. Also worth noting that when we built the Sprint Center, we didn't build any new dedicated parking for that. Correct. And by all accounts, that hasn't hurt the Sprint Center at all. No. And I think that, you know, for the Royals, it's looking at the perspective of the businesses around it. I mean, theWhen you're inside the loop, you know, you've probably had your business there and always park, parking's always been a concern. You know, we developed the crossroads, you know, we as a city and all of us developers and have lived off a rule that allowed for no street, I mean, no off street parking. If you had 3 ,500 square feet or less, if you have historic buildings, there's no requirement for street parking and allow those buildings are historic. So, you know, that was done with the idea of more and more public transit, which you and I both.support, but it also did lead to a pretty reasonable dependence upon street parking. So let's save that street parking. Let's say that in front of every building that is a non -office or maybe all the buildings, you have to get a little, if you want to park there, it's for a business. It's sort of like during COVID, they gave part of the parking to restaurants and they let them utilize it. Well,We do that and you get a little ticket and you scan it and put it in your, you don't have to scan it. You just put it in your, you know, dashboard. And if an officer comes by and they check the scan and it's valid, good. You know, maybe the, you know, brick Riverside or company gives you the ticket or maybe the hair salon, you know, or maybe who's ever opened the brick, you know, or maybe the music, you know, venue does that. So, you know, again, and a lot of those buildings will have their own parking that, that, uh,Kevin (28:08.306)that they rely on, but a lot of them, a lot of them don't. I have a parking lot at 17th and Oak and I will only utilize that for my tenants. And I've had a couple of small businesses request, well, would I rent them some nighttime parking? The answer is yes, I would. Before I need baseball parking revenues, I'd rather have, you know, a small restaurant that knows they'll stay in business because that parking lot will be off limits for baseball.And I think there are other landlords that will make those designations and then we can really call out how many available baseball spots we have. And it's, it is a lot. Yeah. And another aspect of this, which, you why to me, the location as close to the street car as you could get a stadium was important was it, it completely extends the range and location at which somebody might park if they're driving in, say from.Johnson County, or if you're driving in from north of the river or whatever, by the time a new stadium would open downtown, you would have a, the streetcar would be open from the river to UMKC. And so you could effectively come anywhere into that part of the city. And I know some people may hate hearing this too, because they don't like that idea, but you could drive into let's say the Westport area and you could get a drink before the game at Westport and then hop on the streetcar and take it to the game.Oh, yeah, and you could do that. You could go to the plaza. You could go to anywhere up and down Main Street or in that corridor in Midtown. And so the the idea that all of the parking has to be like right near the stadium, even for commuters, is it's a different in this situation. And it is. And, you know, maybe there's a deal made with UMKC to utilize that large garage on game nights. Maybe there's a and I think it's a great example. You know, people talk about, well,Is it really going to pay? Should we be supporting the Royals? You know, well, you know, there's 81 games a year. And you're talking about now, instead of going to the ballpark, pulling in the lot, seeing the game and leaving, you may well be getting off work and getting some dinner. You will have the easy ability in our town to go to Regaza or go to Hill Central or go to one of the restaurants up and down the streetcar line.Kevin (30:31.89)have an early dinner, have a couple of drinks, get on the street car, go to the game, come out of the game. And again, getting back on the street car, especially if you're walkable from the street car, which is a small percentage, but a nice percentage, you don't have to worry about the car. And so we'll learn that. I mean, I've often said, don't force people on the street car, encourage them, excite them about it. And quite frankly, our street car has been phenomenally successful in making it free.I think was the key to success. So yeah, I mean, we do need to, you know, we do need to understand in the big picture, you know, if nothing else, the crossroads wasn't truly successful for coffee shops and restaurants and things like that until we had enough people living downtown who were there all the time and who were there at night and who were not just driving in.And that happened because of the power and light and because of sprint and because of all the energy that was created and the baseball stadium will do more of the same. More people will live downtown. I believe we have 32 ,000 people living downtown right now. And I wouldn't be surprised to see 42 ,000 people downtown in five years, six years, especially with the baseball stadium there. And then if you really think about, you know, how many cars do you need? Does anybody know? Well,9 ,000 for a 34 ,000 seat stadium, 1 ,500 will already be included in the ballpark project. So you've got 7 ,500 spaces that you're really looking at, and about 3 ,500 of those will be in the crossroads. I mean, you start dividing these up, and then you look at the intermodal transportations again. You look at the street car, you look at Uber, you look at those things, and you gotta only believe that number will grow.Right. So, you know. Yeah, we talked about this or joked about it with my wife, who you know. And it's funny how basically everybody our age and younger when they are going out these days for entertainment, they're taking Uber. Absolutely. There are very few people that are driving around. The people my age and older tend to still be driving. No matter what they're doing, they're going to hit a couple of bars, they're going to party hop or whatever it is, they're probably still driving.Kevin (32:54.45)the younger crowd is much more used to just using Uber instead. You know, it's interesting, you know, I've probably like you, I mean, I've got a million really fond memories of Kauffman Stadium. And I started going there in the 70s when I was like a little kid. And when the great run that we had at the teams in the late 70s. And the stadium is...it's a better stadium now than it was then with the improvements they made 20 years ago. So I've always, I mean, I have tons of great memories, but I've, you know, I've traveled enough to know and been around to enough cities to know that it's a terrible location for a baseball stadium where it is now. And we can all argue and debate about maybe what the best or ideal location is, but there's just no question that baseball exists.so much better when it's part of a neighborhood and it can feed off of other activities and be mutually supportive. I think you just said the magic word neighborhood because I have heard John Sherman quoted as saying, I want to build America's next neighborhood ballpark. I mean, I remember going to Boston because I wanted to see the Red Sox play at Fenway and I got off the subway and I, whatever transportation we were on.the ballpark and I keep looking around, then I looked up and I go, oh, this is the ballpark. It blended right in and you see these, you know, like Wrigley Field, you see the excitement of people all around you walking into the ballpark and you can see the buildings across the way and you can see, you know, the noise of a city and you know, it's a neighborhood attraction and it's a large one, but it looks a whole lot better than an empty glass building and a big flat parking lot. Let's face it. Yeah.Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. And there's just something a little bit more, almost just magical about the experience of being in a city, coming up to a game and the excitement that happens with that. I'm not saying that there wasn't any of that at Coffin Stadium. There was two. Oh yeah. But it's just, it's a completely different feeling to it. And I don't remember going to municipal stadium back in the day. I probably did when I was like a little, little kid.Kevin (35:18.486)Yeah. The huddle club for the chiefs, you know, for a dollar you sit on the grassy hill at the ballpark. Those days are probably over the one dollar ticket. But yeah, you know, and, and, and probably the single most important reason to have the ballpark downtown and where it is, is because instead of all of the money being captured by Jackson County in the Island known as the sports complex, it is now being spread out amongst small businesses. And instead of a game time, you know,being limited to the time it takes to park and the time it takes to get out. Game time can be right after work and you don't have to go anywhere if you're downtown or whatever restaurant you'd like to eat at along the way. And, you know, the truth is as long as we can preserve the integrity of the Crossroads neighborhood, it can only be a win for the, you know, for the neighborhood. And there are a lot, I've spoken to a lot of people in the Crossroads.who believe the same way, but all of us believe that there are good things that can come out of this as long as the Royals will be, as they would say, team players, which I believe they are. Well, and I totally get and empathize with all of the people in the crossroads who care so deeply about that neighborhood. I mean, what you and others, many, many others have done over the last three decades or so is fantastic. And taking something,an area that was very, very quiet, to say the least. And it's really our best neighborhood in a lot of ways in the urban core now. It's so lively and interesting and fun, and there's a great diversity of things going on all the time. And it's continuing to grow and change and expand, which is fantastic to see. So I totally get the...the feeling that people have of being protective of that. And there are a lot of unique, creative businesses in the area. So I really hope the Royals, if they're successful with the ballot initiative, can find the right balance to keep people happy and enhance the neighborhood and really do something for the businesses that are there and make them feel valued.Kevin (37:44.886)because it is a special thing that we've done in Kansas City and I love to see it. Yep, me too. I think it would be, it can be a win -win. And I would hope that, you know, again, I come here as a 30 -year resident, so to speak, or business resident of the Crossroads and care deeply about it and very much, and you know, I think it's only a positive as long as it's done correctly. Yeah.But I don't care about that Casey star printing press building. No, no. I heard somebody at the Jackson County meeting the other day go, can you imagine you walking in this big, beautiful neighborhood and there's this giant big box, you know, big stadium there. And of course I didn't say it, but I was thinking, are you color buying the color green? That monolith is, I mean, I always thought it was kind of cool, but it's, it's the, I don't know what the use could be.possibly be. I've heard museum, but boy, that would be, uh, that would be a big museum. We have a lot of museums in this town. No doubt. And oh, by the way, the star got tax abatement for that building. Yes. And the church doesn't pay. Yeah. They got it twice. The church doesn't pay tax. So, you know, and another thing is we have all that ground in the East village that could A, be used for additional parking. And, and I think they could come up with the clever tram system to get people right over to the park if they didn't want to walk.And B, the church could be moved over there, I would hope. You know, there are strong presence down there. You know, I've heard all the arguments, oh, you know, it's going to, there's $31 million worth of real estate not being taxed. I go, well, it wasn't really being taxed too much anyway. Yeah. And, you know, if you go back to the, I remember the original vision for why we call it East Village anyway, which was, you know, the idea was the property owners and others were going to come together there and build a really cool neighborhood.and build an urban neighborhood. And that opportunity is still there. And that actually would still be, that would be an ideal solution for moving ahead with that part of downtown. And we can use the people, we can use the development, be a great place for just another wonderful urban neighborhood. Oh, absolutely. And more and more people living downtown and it'll be convenient to services and things like this. Absolutely.Kevin (40:07.316)All right, Butch, as we wrap it up here, do you have any other final thoughts or comments? Is there anything we didn't cover? Something I didn't ask? No, I mean, I think my final thought is, you know, for those people out in the audience today who are still very skeptical or very concerned, you know, with good reason, I'd say really, you know, look at some of the solutions and look at some of the other downtown baseball stadiums and how they have.been very successful with the area around it and reach out, talk, ask the Royals, make those questions public. Not, why are you doing it, but how can we make this work for all of us? And I believe if you really take the time to look at it, there are good solutions and then only better prospects for small businesses in the neighborhood.Butch, one of the things I've always loved about you, you're such a positive guy and you've always got like a positive outlook on whatever's going on. And I really appreciate that. I think that's great. I think that's well said. Thanks. All right. Well, thank you for joining me. Again, this is the Messy City podcast. If you're new to the podcast, we talk a lot about city planning, design, development issues, not just in Kansas City, but all over the country. And I hope you will.hit that like or follow button and stay tuned and drop me a line as well. Thanks very much for listening. Take care. Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Seth Zeren, a writer and creator of a Substack newsletter, discusses urban development, city planning, and housing policy advocacy. He shares insights on navigating ideological differences in urban development, challenges in urban governance, and the importance of practical skills in real estate development. The conversation highlights his passion for redevelopment projects in Providence, RI, and the complexities of balancing historical preservation with modern urban standards.

Eric Brown, a designer and urban planner, discusses the role of the business community in planning historically, the ongoing developments in Savannah, and new greenfield development. He also shares insights about his project Selah in Norman OK. The podcast covers topics such as the impact of the Savannah 2033 plan, the challenges faced in convincing builders, and the evolution of communication channels. The speakers also talk about their favorite hangout spots in Savannah.

Daniel Herriges, an experienced writer and co-author of "Escaping the Housing Trap," joins the podcast to discuss the complexities of the housing crisis, the impact of high modernism and American zoning, the historic origins of zoning regulations, and avenues for local solutions to the housing crisis. They also talk about their future plans and their favorite messy cities outside the US.

Special guest David Gail discusses his experience in real estate development, including the creation of Kansas City's first walkable community. The podcast explores challenges and successes in the industry, marketing strategies, suburban community projects, and the impact of the 2008 recession. Gail offers insights and advice for aspiring real estate developers, highlighting the evolving nature of the field.

Conversations about zoning and building can get really wonky really quickly. That’s why it’s important to remember the goal: how do we create more of the kind of intimate, find-grained communities that humans obviously love? Can we actually do this all through development regulations? History hasn’t been kind to that notion over the last hundred years. New urbanists designers innovated form-based codes as a counterpoint to segregated-use zoning. Some of those have worked, and some haven’t. We discuss the pros and cons of those codes in this episode, and what appears to be the latest innovation: pre-approved building plans.Matthew Petty and Matt Hoffman have teamed up to create their solution: Pattern Zones. From their home base in beautiful Northwest Arkansas, they travel the country evangelizing and innovating about the next generation of development regulations. And, how to make this all easier with better outcomes.Tech issues nearly killed this episode, but somehow we prevailed. I think it’s a great companion to my discussion with The Jennifers, who also work on pre-approved buildings.A final thought: this episode reminds me that my experience has shown that nearly all innovation in local government starts in small towns and small cities. There’s a deeper thread in there as to why, and a conversation I hope to explore at length in the future.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe