The Messy City Podcast

Special guest David Gail discusses his experience in real estate development, including the creation of Kansas City's first walkable community. The podcast explores challenges and successes in the industry, marketing strategies, suburban community projects, and the impact of the 2008 recession. Gail offers insights and advice for aspiring real estate developers, highlighting the evolving nature of the field.

Conversations about zoning and building can get really wonky really quickly. That’s why it’s important to remember the goal: how do we create more of the kind of intimate, find-grained communities that humans obviously love? Can we actually do this all through development regulations? History hasn’t been kind to that notion over the last hundred years. New urbanists designers innovated form-based codes as a counterpoint to segregated-use zoning. Some of those have worked, and some haven’t. We discuss the pros and cons of those codes in this episode, and what appears to be the latest innovation: pre-approved building plans.Matthew Petty and Matt Hoffman have teamed up to create their solution: Pattern Zones. From their home base in beautiful Northwest Arkansas, they travel the country evangelizing and innovating about the next generation of development regulations. And, how to make this all easier with better outcomes.Tech issues nearly killed this episode, but somehow we prevailed. I think it’s a great companion to my discussion with The Jennifers, who also work on pre-approved buildings.A final thought: this episode reminds me that my experience has shown that nearly all innovation in local government starts in small towns and small cities. There’s a deeper thread in there as to why, and a conversation I hope to explore at length in the future.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Each year, I like to set aside some time and figure out priorities for the year ahead. This time, I took a step back and asked, “What do I think the priorities should be for my community? For my little corner of the world, what would help us thrive?”Some of these may surprise you, and some may not. But it’s my best attempt to work this all out for myself. I’m not perfect; none of us are. I have my own blind spots and preferences. But coming from the vantage point of an urban planner, an architect, someone in place management, these six are where I would begin.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all! For this final episode of 2023, we convene some of my KC brain trust to discuss a few perennial hot topics. We have a lengthy discussion on district parking and parking management in a car-dominated metro region, we discuss the possible future location of the Kansas City Royals, and talk some about current projects and lessons learned in small-scale infill development.When it comes to baseball, there’s tons of great websites out there on stadiums, but I think this one on historic stadiums that are now gone is a good one. Here’s a page on KC’s old Municipal Stadium, which we discuss. And I can’t help but push people toward my interview with Philip Bess on this topic as well, including our work on saving Fenway Park.Projects we discuss:Columbus Park Townhomes2000 VineWheatley-Provident HospitalBoone TheaterFind more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Abby Newsham hosts the excellent podcast “Upzoned” on the Strong Towns network. I always recommend it to people, since it’s a great way to keep on top of current issues in the field, and you’ll get plenty of contrarian takes. Sometimes, the contrarian is me, but often it’s Strong Towns President Chuck Marohn. Abby has had a recent hiatus from hosting podcasts (but set to return in 2024), and so we do a little reverse Upzoned this time where I get to interview her. We discuss this piece called “Have you Ever Seen a City?” by Addison del Mastro on his blog, The Deleted Scenes. Addison challenges us to ask, do we often even really know what we’re talking about when we discuss these issues?We also talk about Abby’s recent involvement in Kansas City with the KC Community Land Trust and their project to renovate the old Marlborough School. Abby is sinking her teeth into a development project with the KCCLT for the first time, and there’s some interesting lessons. Some of those lessons are outgrowths of her work to lead the local Small Developers group.Abby is a planner with multistudio in Kansas City. You can find her on Instagram and Twitter.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Those of us who willingly embrace a label such as “urbanists” or “new urbanists” would do well to recognize we are a tiny minority of the population. If we want our tiny minority to grow, and our cities to succeed, we need to better appreciate what appeals to everyone else. Let’s learn to recognize those traits, and then make our cities better. When we forgive failure or incompetence, we do no one any favors - including the places we love.Happy Thanksgiving, and Happy Holidays to all.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Paul Knight, a planner with the design firm Historical Concepts, can give you a dozen reasons for just about anything. More importantly, he can give you reasons for brushing up on the lectures of former Georgia Tech professor Douglas Allen. Allen was a giant in the field of urban planning, and fortunately some of his former students and colleagues have carried on his work following his passing. Paul is one of them, helping form the Douglas Allen Institute.This may all sound very academic, and I know I often take shots at academia. But, when it works well, it’s amazing the impact one really great professor can have on so many people. I wanted to talk with Doug, because I know just how brilliant the man was, and how it’s even better that his work will live on for future generations. For example, the Institute was able to videotape his lectures from his “History of Urban Form” course, and they’ve made them available for free on YouTube. If you’re at all interested in the history of cities and towns, I couldn’t recommend something more highly.Several years ago, Paul also opened my eyes to the whole rabbit hole of base 12 versus base 10 measurements. I’m now a firm believer in base 12. In this episode, Paul even lets me know there’s a Dozenal Society. I should’ve guessed, but had no idea.Since we made a few minor errors in the podcast, here are the official corrections:* In regards to the “Jeffersonian” grid, and what it really should be called, here’s what Allen had in his lecture notes: “Congress formed a committee originally chaired by Thomas Jefferson, but  eventually by Hugh Williamson of North Carolina. Jefferson had proposed ten states and  a measurement system of his own invention based on the nautical mile. After Jefferson was called away to Paris, Williamson’s committee adopted the Gunter Chain and the system of feet and inches that are in use today.”* I was trying to think of the “4 rod Main Street,” which is a historic pattern throughout much of the United Kingdom and the US. The rod is 16.5 feet, and the four rod street was thus 66 feet wide. 66 feet is also one chain.* The reason a mile is 5,280 feet is that it’s exactly 320 rods.* The book I couldn’t remember was “Measuring America: How the United States was Shaped by the Greatest Land Sale in History.”Please look at the work of the Douglas Allen Institute, and the Urban Form Standard that Paul mentions. It’s really pretty terrific work.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Philip Bess joins me this week in a wide-ranging conversation about architecture, academia, and baseball. It’s not the first time we’ve shared such a bizarre collection of topics. We didn’t even get into localism, subsidiarity, and Georgism. We’ll save that for next time, I suppose.Mr. Bess is retiring from a career in academia, at Andrews University and Notre Dame University. I also had one of my very first design charrette experiences with Phil, back in 1999 in Ada, Michigan. We talk about his experience in academia as someone with a fondness for traditional architecture and urban design (hint: it’s not always popular), and we also mention the origin of the infamous “Dogbark Plan.”If you take anything away from this, understand the historical importance of the Fenway 7, and Philip’s little book called “City Baseball Magic.” It’s a gem that describes an alternate reality for (old?) New Comiskey Park in Chicago, and laid the groundwork for all of us ending up in Boston in the Summer of 2000 to help two local non-profits trying to save their beloved historic ballpark.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Somehow it’s fitting that his name is Clay. Yet, he’s more than just a brick mason. Clay Chapman is part artist, part philosopher, and part builder. His new buildings have captured the attention and imaginations of everyone who’s seen them. I joke with him that at every conference session I’ve seen, he’s the most popular presenter. But it’s no joke; people are enthralled by his newly constructed homes.Clay talks about how he became the country’s most famous bricklayer (ok, that’s my moniker for him), and the ins and outs of building new homes with structural masonry. We talk about the difference between brick veneer and structural masonry, some of the details, and how this type of work can scale.Clay now mostly works at Carlton Landing, a new development on Lake Eufaula in Oklahoma. He’s trained a number of people that are doing similar work, including Austin Tunnell of Building Culture, in Oklahoma City.If you go see any new construction this year, go see these buildings. Take a trip to Oklahoma, you won’t regret it.Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Today, I discuss three chapters of issues that are tied together by the place-making triumvirate of design, policy and management. First, I revisit the International Downtown Association (IDA) annual conference, and the importance of place management organizations. Very quietly, these types of groups are stepping up to better manage public space in neighborhoods all over the country. It’s a great thing. Second, I dig deeper into the issues facing many schools and getting kids to schools on buses. I ask, is this yet another example of how we seem to be drifting fitfully back toward 1910? What do you think? Is there a solution to the bussing dilemma? Can we afford to keep operating a system just for children? Are there other things you see, that feel like harkening back to a previous era of civilization?Finally, why do our thoughts on economic development in rural areas continue to just be nothing more than warmed-up leftovers from a previous era? Do we have the capacity to critically examine systems that haven’t worked, abandon them and start over? Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.Intro: “Why Be Friends”Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe