Drowned in Sound

Ilana Kaplan, music editor at People Magazine and author of "Nora Ephron at the Movies," dives deep into the art of music journalism. She shares her journey from intern to spotting stars like Billie Eilish early on. The conversation reveals how she successfully introduced unconventional artists like Zola Jesus to mainstream platforms. Kaplan discusses the importance of trust in interviews and how music journalists curate experiences that algorithms can’t replicate, emphasizing the vital role they play in discovering new talent.

Dive into the harsh realities of streaming economics and social media burnout in the music industry. Discover why massive streaming numbers don't guarantee financial stability for artists. Learn how to transform social media from a chore into a storytelling tool. Explore the challenges of live streaming and its inability to replicate the authentic concert experience. Sean exposes the disconnect between streaming success and real fan engagement, urging musicians to rethink their approach in an exploitative system.

What if the very thing that makes you feel like an outsider in the music industry could become your greatest business advantage? How do you build something meaningful when you're convinced you're not qualified? And why might starting before you feel "ready" be the secret to creating lasting change? This week, Sean talks with Isobel Anderson - founder of Girls Twiddling Knobs, one of music tech's most important feminist voices. Following on from the Mary Spender episode about converting online reach into sustainable income, this conversation explores a different path: how small, mission-driven businesses can create industry change without needing massive audiences. From a PhD in Sonic Arts to over 25 million Spotify streams to building Girls Twiddling Knobs into one of music tech's most important feminist voices, reaching thousands of women through courses, community, and her acclaimed podcast, Isobel's journey proves that feeling like an imposter might actually be your qualification. In essence, this episode is about turning industry frustrations into business opportunities, why multiple revenue streams are now reality for musicians, and how to value your work when the world expects creativity for free. Chapters: 00:00 – Sean's Introduction: Building Your Independent Music Business 02:41 – Isobel Anderson intro: From Singer-Songwriter to Sonic Arts PhD 08:12 – Why Sound Design and Production Details Matter 10:08 – Confronting Misogyny in the Music Industry 20:05 – From Facebook Group to Girls Twiddling Knobs 24:41 – Overcoming Self-Doubt When Learning Something New 30:46 – Why Great Producers Are More Than Technical Experts 33:48 – Valuing Your Work and Putting a Price on Creativity 46:40 – Are Musicians as Vital to Society as Doctors? 49:37 – Balancing Music-Making with Building a Business 55:54 – Sean's Outro Reflections Key Takeaways: The 10% Edge: You don't need to be an expert to start teaching others - you just need to be one step ahead of the people you want to help. Start Before You're Ready: "You are not going to ever be ready to do this" - perfectionism is the enemy of progress. Mission Before Money: Purpose-driven businesses can be more disruptive than charities because they can make quick decisions and restructure rapidly. Multiple Revenue Streams Are Reality: Modern music careers require diversified income - it's not a backup plan, it's the plan. Community Over Confidence: Building safe learning spaces can be more valuable than traditional "confidence training." Continue the Conversation: Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your thoughts Join the discussion: Drowned in Sound Community Get more music insights: DiS Newsletter Guest Links: Girls Twiddling Knobs Podcast Isobel Anderson - Artist Referenced in Episode: The Anchoress - Artist managed by Sean Girls Twiddling Knobs special episode - The immersive episode Sean references Delia Derbyshire Day - Celebrating the electronic music pioneer The Oram Awards - Recognizing women innovating in music and sound technology About the Host: Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound and manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress. Beyond founding one of the original music blogs, he's worked with BBC 6 Music and co-produced political podcast The Trawl. Through the DiS podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music. Note: This conversation originally took place a couple of years ago but feels more relevant than ever as musicians navigate the realities of building sustainable, independent careers. If this episode sparks any business ideas, we'd love to hear about them in three years' time.

While most music industry coverage focuses on (poly)crisis and collapse, Mary Spender argues we're living through the greatest era for independent artists in history. But, but but... what about streaming economics, venue closures, and platform dependence? Don't worry, we get into it. With over 100 million YouTube views, 34,000 newsletter subscribers, and significant album sales achieved before releasing a single track to streaming, Mary demonstrates there are viable alternatives to industry doom-spiralling. In this conversation, she reveals her strategies for converting YouTube viewers into album buyers, why artists need to think like entrepreneurs, and what she'd build with Spotify's $400 million Joe Rogan budget. Sean also asks her about her recent video about why artists should embrace YouTube. Speaking of which, you will be able to see clips from this interview over on Drowned in Sound's YouTube: youtube.com/@DrownedinSound Timestamps 00:00 Sean's Intro 03:21 What will music be like in 2050? 06:25 Why artists should think like entrepreneurs 12:45 What does the future hold for independent artists? 16:56 The 1000 true fan theory 18:51 Should YouTube be the #1 platform for musicians? 24:36 Researching with an open mind. A rare skillset? 29:45 How to convert an audience from YouTube 34:17 What can the UK government do for music? 36:35 How would Mary spend the $400 million Spotify paid Joe Rogan? 38:39 Is long-form content on the return? 43:29 Sean's Outro Quotable Moments "Technically it's never been a better time to be a musician than today, even though everyone likes to talk about the heyday. But that was for a very lucky few." "If you don't have the grassroots, you don't have the artists in Wembley Stadium. Like you don't have that trajectory." Continue the Conversation📧 Email sean@drownedinsound.org with your questions for future episodes🌐 Join the Drowned in Sound Community📰 Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound newsletter Guest Links Mary Spender's YouTube Channel Mary's website and newsletter The Dire Straits Documentary on Nebula Referenced in Episode Kevin Kelly's "1000 True Fans" essay About the Host: Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound (est. 2000), manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and has worked with BBC 6 Music. Through this podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music. At its peak, Drowned in Sound had over 3 million readers. Stay tuned for details about its 25th anniversary celebrations.

What does it feel like to attend Glastonbury for the first time? Music journalist Emma Wilkes brings us along for her debut pilgrimage to the UK's landmark musical gathering. She spins us a sonic diary with interviews from Terminal 1 and Laima Layton, along with reactions to some of the politically charged moments of the festival (shouts to Amyl and the Sniffers). Along the way, there are vox pops with strangers, overlooked corners, and moments that slipped under the mainstream radar… 00:00 Introduction 01:51 Pre-festival preparation with Emma Wilkes 03:26 Attendees' expectations of Glastonbury 2025 04:22 First impressions and Thursday observations 06:19 Terminal 1 and an interview with Laima Layton 18:32 The sounds of Worthy Farm 19:12 How does the real-life festival compare to the coverage seen previously? 21:45 The political moments of Glastonbury 2025 30:42 The journey home, the Tuesday after, and a summary from a slightly raspy Emma 34:11 Expectations vs. reality with the people of the festival Mentioned in the episode: Laima Layton In Place Of War GRRRL Terminal 1 Amyl and the Sniffers JADE Seun Kuti Maruja Lambrini Girls Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community Email: sean@drownedinsound.org Stay updated: Subscribe to DiS newsletter

Nikki Camilleri, a music strategist and Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, shares her insights on building impactful communities in the music world. She emphasizes that nurturing just five super fans can be more valuable than chasing massive followings. The discussion dives into overcoming geographic disadvantages, the need for industry transparency, and the broken nature of social media advice for artists. Nikki envisions a future where genuine connections matter more than algorithms, urging artists to focus on quality interactions over quantity.

What does it mean to “metabolize” emotion through music? Do wellness tools actually work better when paired with your favourite artist? Why does the music industry treat artists like products and not caregivers? Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams is joined by Ariana Alexander-Sefre, co-founder of the mental health app SPOKE⁠, to talk about the future of therapy and how music can play a pivotal role in that. The conversation explores the science behind sound, the emotional toll on musicians, and why music should be taken seriously as a public health tool. Spoke has worked with over 100 artists, training them in techniques like CBT and mindfulness to embed into lyrics and melodies - and the results are changing lives. Episode chapters: 0:00 - 2:45 - Introduction 2:46 - 4:55  What would Ariana hope music to be like in 2050? 4:56 - 7:46 Using music to “metabolize” emotions 7:47 - 11:50 Who are SPOKE and who is Ariana Alexandre-Sefre 11:51 - 13:42 The relationship between music and mental health 13:43 -  20:28 Inside the SPOKE app - embedding music with culture with therapy 20:29 - 31:18 Why the music industry needs a fresh perspective on artist value 31:19 - 37:08 The science behind functional music and mindfulness 38:09 - 40:04 The real-world impact of therapy delivered through music 40:05 - 48:08 Can artists become a recognised part of healthcare? 48:09 - 54:13 - Closing thoughts from Sean Mentioned in the episode: Music Minds Matter Can Music Make You Sick? (Sally Anne Gross) Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Cost of the Perfect Playlist (Liz Pelly) Endel Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community Email: sean@drownedinsound.org Subscribe to DiS newsletter

What does a melting glacier sound like? Can a rainforest sing? And what happens when the last bird of its species hears a recording and tries to reply? In this special live edition of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, recorded at Tallinn Music Week, host Sean Adams moderates a powerful conversation on music, ecology, and collective action. Joined by artists and innovators from the EarthSonic project, the panel explores how field recordings, plant biofeedback, and immersive sound can shift our understanding of the planet — and why that emotional shift matters. From Brazil’s disappearing biodiversity to sound fossils in the Swiss Alps, this episode weaves together music, activism, and indigenous wisdom in an urgent yet hopeful conversation about art’s role in averting climate collapse. Plus Ruth from In Place of War reveals their new project with Bicep in Greenland that launches in summer 2025. Featured Guests & Projects: ⁠Natural Symphony (Joey Dean)⁠ ⁠Ludwig Berger⁠ ⁠In Place of War / EarthSonic (Ruth Daniel)⁠ ⁠Martyn Ware (Heaven 17 / Human League)⁠ Episode Highlights & Timestamps: 03:00 – Ruth Daniel on the origins of In Place of War and EarthSonic 06:00 – Ludwig Berger: Listening to melting glaciers through hydrophones 11:00 – Martyn Ware (Heaven 17/The Human League) on sonifying endangered species and synthetic forests 17:00 – Natural Symphony: Collaborating with plants and reforesting the Amazon 27:00 – The power of sound to bridge disconnection and inspire action 33:00 – Building cultural change through art and emotional resonance 39:00 – Sound healing, deep listening, and making the unseen audible 45:00 – What capitalism doesn’t want us to feel — and why art matters 52:00 – Indigenous wisdom, urban detachment, and finding your own tree 58:00 – Hopeful projects, collective agency, and calling in the music industry Mentioned in the Episode: "The Last Scream" new release Crying Glacier movie EarthSonic panel replay via the TMW.EE website Join the Conversation: Drowned in Sound Community Email Sean → sean@drownedinsound.org Follow Sean on Bluesky Subscribe to the DiS Newsletter

What did the future sound like when the synthesizer first arrived? What does it feel like now, with AI looming and immersive audio spaces on the rise? In this special episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, recorded at Tallinn Music Week, Sean Adams speaks with Martyn Ware — founder of The Human League and Heaven 17, producer for acts ranging from Tina Turner to Erasure, and creator of some of the UK’s most ambitious sound installations. This is a conversation about optimism and dystopia, about punk and purpose, and about how DIY culture in Sheffield shaped a career that’s still future-facing today. Martyn also reflects on his podcast Electronically Yours, the legacy of sound, and how creative freedom can reshape confidence, community, and cultural memory. Timestamps & Topics: 01:32 – Synths, Sheffield, and starting out 07:00 – Curiosity and creative confidence 10:00 – From charts to immersive installations 14:30 – Podcasting and preserving legacy 20:00 – What would a Martyn Ware bar sound like? 25:00 – Optimism, memory, and what comes next Further Listening & Resources: 🎙️ Electronically Yours podcast 🔊 Illustrious Company (immersive audio) 🧠 Sounds of Our Shores installation Stay Connected: 🗣 Drowned in Sound Community 📩 Email Sean → sean@drownedinsound.org 🔵 Follow Sean on Bluesky 📰 Subscribe to the DiS Newsletter About the Guest: Martyn Ware is a pioneering British musician, producer, and sound artist. As a founding member of The Human League and Heaven 17, and co-founder of British Electric Foundation, he helped define the sound of synth-pop while pushing boundaries in spatial audio, immersive installations, and political music-making. He also hosts the acclaimed podcast Electronically Yours. About the Host: Sean Adams turned his passion for music into Drowned in Sound, a UK-based music platform that launched in 2000. He also manages artists like Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and works across strategic communications in the music and creative sectors.

What's it like to be an artist right now? And what does the future of music look like? Will it be AI-generated slop or a joyful return to community and creativity? In this episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks to Becky Hawley from the art-pop trio Stealing Sheep. From the launch of their new label G-IRL (Girl In Real Life) to their reflections on DIY culture, Liverpool’s music scene, and 15 years of creative evolution, this episode is full of inspiring insights about building something real in a digital world. Expect discussion of Daft Punk, community over algorithms, mechanical bulls, offline joy, and what it really means to be a band in 2025. 📌 Key Timestamps: 00:00 – Intro & New Album Campaign 01:56 – What Will Music Be Like in 2050? 04:54 – Joy, Fears, and Creative Challenges 07:19 – The Sound of Stealing Sheep: Riding the Bull of Tech 10:37 – G-IRL: Launching Their Own Record Label 20:33 – Liverpool as Inspiration & Music City 25:23 – Album Campaign Concepts & Offline Joy 29:18 – Let’s Go! New Single & Album Themes 30:59 – Artistic Identity, Collaborations & Creative Growth 33:50 – Lessons Learned from 15 Years in Music 38:05 – Building Community, Offline Spaces, & Human Connection 42:57 – Supporting Grassroots Scenes 49:01 – AI, Future Tech & Music’s Utopian Possibilities 52:21 – Final Reflections: What Artists Need to Unlearn Links New Single “Let’s Go” Watch the Music Video Tatty Devine Collab Guerrilla Girls Join the Conversation: 🗣 Drowned in Sound Community 📩 Email Sean → sean@drownedinsound.org 🔵 Follow on Bluesky About the Guest: Becky Hawley is one-third of Stealing Sheep, a Liverpool-based band known for their innovative, genre-defying sound. The trio recently launched their own record label, G-IRL (Girl In Real Life), to support their own work and that of other boundary-pushing creatives. About the Host: Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound, a pioneering music webzine launched in 2000. He also manages artists like Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and works across campaigns that support independent and ethical approaches to music and media.