Next Level Agents: The Kevin & Fred Show - Interviews with the best and brightest minds in the real estate industry cover image

Next Level Agents: The Kevin & Fred Show - Interviews with the best and brightest minds in the real estate industry

Latest episodes

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Dec 11, 2023 • 11min

Remembering Rick Geha

With most of the people I see who have over 30 years in the business, it shows on their faces. I’m excited everyday, I look forward to my day, I look forward to meeting great people in the business everyday. -Rick Geha  I’m reminded of how exciting life can be if you’re willing to do the boring basics and the things that are uncomfortable so you can have the things you want. -Rick Geha  People want to work with exciting people. Wake up everyday excited out of your mind about what you do, and with a willingness to share with people whether they want to do business with you or not. -Rick Geha  In today’s special episode, we’re honoring our good friend, the late great, Rick Geha. Back in our Short Sale Power Hour days, Rick was a guest on the show many times, talking about mindset and pulling from decades in the real estate industry to share what it takes to succeed at a high level. Here are some of the most powerful insights from Rick.  Quotes and Key Points Mindset is the biggest part of absorbing anything you might learn and deciding what to do with it. We have to believe in being bigger and better than ourselves.  We enrich other people’s lives by sharing.  Everyday you’re doing something that creates major, drastic differences in your life and moves you in the direction you’d like to go.  How big of a life would you like to make for yourself? Who in your life sees you much bigger than you see yourself? Surround yourself with these people.  If God is one of the 5 people you surround yourself with, it brings your average up significantly.  You don’t want to be around people who want you to succeed but are holding onto your ankles saying “don’t leave us behind”. You want people who say “go, succeed and we’ll be here if you need us.”   The money you make is how you fund your mission and your dreams. How much time do we waste not being productive and not moving towards the dreams we’ve created for ourselves? Figure out what you’re doing everyday that’s getting you nowhere, and what you can be doing everyday to get you somewhere.   In our hardest moments, we’re capable of 20 times more than we’re capable of in our best moments. CTA​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla
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Dec 4, 2023 • 56min

Challenge Your Beliefs Often: The Cheat Code For Building Anything At a High Level w/Matt Chick

Whether it’s a traditional real estate team, an investment portfolio or a fulfilling life - building anything great is a process of constantly asking ourselves big questions and challenging whatever we believe. It’s really easy to copycat our way to success until we find ourselves up the wrong mountain. The only way to combat this is to take everything we believe and pierce holes in it - play devil’s advocate to our own beliefs, if you will.  Our business might be good now, but what if changing the model and our identity could make it better? Flipping homes sounds sexy, but it’s actually not investing. The market is tough right now, but what if getting a tiny bit better, or even staying the same is a sign that we’re crushing it?  When you get really good at asking these questions, and become okay with being wrong about what you believe, pivoting and moving through changes gets easier and faster. When we get clear on what we truly want, and lose the fear of going after something completely different, we’re able to build something we’ll be proud of today and years from now.  What kind of questions should we be asking ourselves all the time? How can we walk through chaos without it impacting us?  Today, I’m joined by friend, collaborator, coach, trainer, and CEO of Guaranteed Home Buyers LLC, Matt Chick. We talk about the ultimate cheat code to make anything happen.  Key Points   Redefining success in a tough market There’s a lot of people we know who won’t be surviving this market, or even this calendar year. That means crushing it looks different to what it looked like 3 years ago, 2 years ago - even a year ago. There’s a certain level of business maturity you’ve got to have to realize that sometimes not going backwards or only going backwards a little bit is actually a win when people are going backwards a lot.  Not afraid to be wrong No one is a perfectionist, we’re just afraid of looking wrong. Our egos are fragile to how other people perceive us when we fail, get something wrong or fall flat on our faces. But when we’re willing to make mistakes, be wrong or fall flat on our faces, we can get closer to what we want.   Don’t copycat your way to success One of the great things about this industry is how easy it is to copycat and find success if you’re willing to put in the work, but that’s also a curse. You can look at someone else and copy them, but the reality is, we all have different wants and priorities. For some people, time matters more than money and for others, it’s money over time. Knowing what matters to you allows you to build the right thing and climb the right mountain.  The biggest misunderstanding about flippingWe call flipping homes investing, but it actually isn’t. Flipping is a business, just like wholesales and commissions from transactions. It’s active income that we should turn into passive income. Wherever our active income comes from, the ultimate move is to use it to create residual income by buying assets.  For more information, visit https://mattchick.com/ and follow @iammattchick on Instagram.  CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla 
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Nov 27, 2023 • 28min

$22 Million From a Facebook Group: How Laura Griffin Built a Hyper-Local Community & Lead Machine

The gift of real estate is that we can generate leads the way we want, as long as we systematize it. Not everyone in real estate wants to cold call, door knock and have a business that relies on speed-to-lead. Some agents don’t want to do open houses because they treasure weekends with their kids. Laura Griffin found herself in this predicament, and the perfect solution presented itself - starting a Facebook group for moms.  6 years later, that group has 10,000 members, Laura does $22 million in volume and 90% of that business comes from the group. Many agents would love to have a lead generation method that fits their personality and lifestyle, but turning it into a real system is the challenge.  There is a way to grow a community and nurture people without jamming real estate down their throats. Laura found the perfect balance. She shares how she runs her group, the kind of content she posts, and how she’s successfully grown an engaged, hyper-local community.  Key Points   Balancing community with marketing If you’re an agent running a Facebook group, no one wants to have real estate jammed down their throats all the time. At the same time, you don’t want to be a secret agent. A blend of value-add content, questions and less overt real estate content works really well.  Protecting your community When you build a large Facebook Group, you’re always at risk of the platform changing something on you or locking you out entirely. Putting the members of your group into your database and emailing them monthly helps you protect your community. Make it evidently hyper-local When you create your group make sure a town, city or county is attached to its name. You can’t be hyper-local if people don’t know what locale you serve. Having a location that people know and recognize allows you to also pull in the relocation crowd, and that will bring in a lot of leads.  How to get found You need to have a good description of what the group is, where it’s located, who you are and a freebie at the bottom like a relocation guide. If you don’t have those pieces in place, it’s going to be hard for people to find you and for you to grow your group.  One question, many leadsOne post Laura constantly uses is the question “what’s the one thing you’d change about your house?” Of course, some people will talk about minor decorative things, but others will share that their yard is too small, or that they wish their house was bigger. You can take those people’s names down and start marketing to them because you know the wheels are starting to turn. You’ll learn things about your members and be able to identify clients before they know they’re ready to buy or sell.  To find out more about Laura’s coaching and to watch her free webinar, go to https://groupstoleads.com/webinar/.   CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla
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Nov 20, 2023 • 37min

Outwork Any Problem: Daryl Owen On Indie Brokerages, Perseverance & Not Letting Identity Block Change

To have staying power in real estate, mindset and the ability to pivot is key. We have to be willing to make big changes to our models, and have the courage to do things differently. The problem is: many business owners get their identity so wrapped up in what they’ve been doing that making such a change is too hard.  We get so caught up in what we’ve done for the last 2,5 or 10 years that we won’t budge from a model, even if it isn’t serving us or our agents.  Daryl Owen has always been committed to where he wants to go, not where he’s been. That has meant shifting from the brokerage model to the team model. His mindset on his real estate business was forged in his early days, where a serious head injury nearly destroyed his dream. His ability to outwork hardship quickly paid off, and this mentality has been instrumental in his success.  Daryl shares his story, how he got started, the struggles of running an indie brokerage and the power of pivoting, identity be damned.  Quotes  You want to have ancillary businesses when you have a brokerage firm to make it worth it because there’s a ton of liability and overhead. -Daryl Owen Most agents underestimate how relentless you’ve got to be with the follow up. -Daryl Owen Key Points   Leaning into the team model The turnover rate of agents joining and leaving the industry is high. No matter what a brokerage does, you’ll be burning through money and resources, pouring in as much as you can, but still not moving the needle. A lot of people underestimate getting into this industry and what it means to be successful. They think it’s the Million Dollar Listing Lifestyle, but the truth is, you spend the majority of your day drumming up business.  You can always outwork the problem Daryl went from thinking his real estate dream was over after suffering head trauma in an accident to being the top agent in his office. He was cold calling 500 people 7 days a week, and even though he couldn’t speak well, no one was doing as well as him in his office. What facilitated his breakthrough was a massive perspective change, the realization that it could have been worse, he was saved for a reason and he was going to make the most of it.  How to take an agent from 0 homes sold to #1 in the officeYou can’t make an agent productive, you can only provide an environment that facilitates growth. But if you’re dealing with an agent who has the drive, but just needs the structure, standards and handholding, that’s something you can provide. You’re giving them the scaffold to succeed, but not the fuel.  The indie brokerage challenge In an independent brokerage, there just isn’t enough money to go around to get everyone the tools and support they need. It’s hard to service agents with the way the splits are structured. You can be an independent brokerage with 1000 agents (one of the biggest ones), but even at that point, you’re still not big enough to make it work at scale. In a team, the financial model is set up so it benefits the owner as well as the individual agent.  Commit to where you’re going, not where you’ve been Real estate agents and business owners in general get in the way of their own growth because it’s in a new direction. Many of us have our identities so wrapped in what we’ve been doing, we’re not willing to budge even if it would be better. By untangling our identity from our business models, we’re able to pivot effortlessly.  For more information, head to https://www.darylowen.com/ and follow @darylrowen on Instagram  CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla
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Nov 13, 2023 • 21min

No Days Off: Do Hard Things & Ways to Increase Your Rental Revenue

In today’s special episode of the podcast, we’re bringing you into two episodes of No Days Off, Brian Gubernick’s show. If you care about getting better, there’s no such thing as taking time off from the things that allow you to grow and reach your dreams. Every new day is an opportunity to get better, and today, Brian shares how we can become better real estate investors.    Brian Gubernick is a 15+ year residential real estate industry veteran, having held the roles of real estate investor, sales agent, sales team owner/leader, expansion (multi-state) team owner, brokerage operating partner, coach/trainer, and corporate executive. He is the co-founder of the Metrix Mastermind, Chief Real Estate Officer at PLACE and host of No Days Off. Listen to No Days Off on your platform of choice.   First: Brian Gubernick shares how to get comfortable with doing hard things.    Not hitting snooze when the alarm rings, making your bed or jumping into a cold plunge every morning. These activities may not be fun, but they are necessary.    That’s because doing hard things breaks through barriers, creates momentum and it creates the appetite to do other challenging things throughout the day. By doing that initial hard thing first thing in the morning, you’ve won your first battle, and that win will supercharge your results.    Then: if you’re a real estate investor, maximizing your revenue is one of the most important things you can ever do. Of course, you can do so by cutting expenses, but there are a few key strategies you can employ to get your rental properties to earn more money.   Brian Gubernick has discovered and implemented several strategies that have increased how much his property earns by up to $3400. From extra parking to upgrading appliances, he shares 6 ways you can earn more from your rentals.   CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla
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Nov 6, 2023 • 1h 5min

Dustin Runyon Returns: Lessons From Robert Greene and Ryan Holiday

When you look at successful and influential authors like Robert Greene and Ryan Holiday, it’s easy to think they are geniuses whose greatness comes easy to them. This gives us an excuse not to put effort into achieving what we want. In order to write their books, they have to enhance their identity, put a lot of work and intensity into that project, and have freakish commitment to accomplishing that thing. They may look like overnight successes, but if their lives look easy now, best believe they did the hard things over and over for a long time.  We’re no different. Whether we want to thrive in this market, achieve a bigger goal in our businesses or write a book ourselves. We don’t have to be geniuses, we just have to apply work and intensity to what we do. We have to commit to being the people who deserve the higher thing we want.  Dustin Runyon and I recently got to see Robert Greene and Ryan Holiday speak in LA. Today we’ll share what we got out of the event, what we learned about achieving great things and other insights from the last few months.  Key Points   48 Laws is a warning, not a how-to manual Many people haven’t read the 48 Laws of Power because the concept of power itself makes them uncomfortable. People look at power the way they look at money - it’s taboo, but power is very important. It’s why you want to have the right people in power. It’s why we want to be successful - it gives us the power to do what we want to do.  What living through history feels likeWhen people are going through historical moments, they don’t realize it’s historical, they’re just tackling what’s in front of them in the moment. When you think of defining moments in your life, it’s the same thing. It won’t feel pivotal in the moment, but the moment after is what makes it feel important. It’s your behavior after said moment that makes it historical or not.  History is also made by what didn’t take placeHistory isn’t just about what happened, it can also be about what didn’t happen. If you think about the fact that the Mongols were about to invade Austria but didn’t because Genghis Khan died, you realize how powerful something not happening can be as well.   Be the person who deserves the higher thing you want When you look at authors like Robert Greene and Ryan Holiday, it’s easy to attribute their accomplishment to genius. Of course, they are brilliant, talented and intelligent people, but they are also hard workers. You have to write and read the equivalent of 100 books to produce that 1 great book. To get their results, they’ve had to enhance their identities many times over. We’re capable of putting in the same level of commitment and work.  Talk to an expert in an avenue you’re exploringWe have to enhance our identity if we want to achieve something new or bigger than what we have now. Sometimes that enhancement is through gathering information from people who are experts in that field. Dustin will pay for time with an expert in the avenue he’s exploring. You’ll discover that people are eager to help if you’re willing to notice the work they’ve done. Investing in event attendance There’s tremendous value in putting ourselves in rooms where people are doing better and differently than us. We can go to an event because of who’s speaking at it, or who is going to be attending or both. Sometimes it’s swing and miss, but it pays off more often than not. There are a lot of successful people who will refuse to go to an event unless they are speaking, but that means you cut yourself off from a lot of learning opportunities.  Head to https://www.dustinrunyon.com/ for more information. To sign up for Fired Up Fridays visit https://firedupfridays.com/. CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla
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Oct 30, 2023 • 45min

Shonna Ruble On The “Smack-in-the-Face” Moment That Changed Her Business & Dominating in a New State

In an industry that celebrates making rain, GCI, units and volume, it’s really easy to lose sight of why we got into real estate in the first place. Most of us got into this for our families and for freedom to spend time with them. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, we forget and find ourselves working too much, prioritizing the next meeting,  appointment and commission check.  It’s only when we have a smack-in-the-face moment that we realize that we’re running our businesses all wrong, and that we have to refocus on the original goal. A lot of what we hear from the stage doesn’t share this truth, and what the road to refocusing on what matters looks like.  The great thing about this business is you can build it, find out you built it all wrong, burn it all down, start over and build it right. You can regain the vision and start doing it in alignment with what matters to you. It’s certainly not an easy thing to do, but following through on it is worth it. It gives us a business that puts pressure on the things that really move the needle and nothing else. Shonna Ruble shares her own path through this process, from realizing it was built wrong to building it right in a new city and becoming the top team there.  Smacked in the faceWhat led Shonna Ruble into real estate was making sure her children could get what they needed, after her son needed a $700 nebulizer she couldn’t afford. Again, her children are the reason she ultimately decided to build a business and stop working all the time. Sometimes, we get so lost in rain making we forget what matters, but a slap in the face moment got Shonna to refocus.  Prioritizing what mattersIt’s crazy how much real estate you can do when you’re sitting in your car while your kid is at dance or swim class. Shonna learned how to work while her kids were doing something so that she could be there for them. Then after time with her family in the evening, she’d go back to the office. That level of focus is what allowed her business to grow.  Great people, not-so-great systems We can have really amazing people on our teams, but if we don’t have systems, everything falls apart if those people aren’t there anymore. It’s so important to take the time to document what has made you successful because that’s what will keep you going through staff changes. From how we do client events to how we celebrate birthdays on the team, you need to have everything written down.  Focus on profit Leading with profit is something we’re not taught enough in our business. We get caught up in the numbers, awards, units, GCI and volume, not net worth statements, bank accounts and profitability and it gets us in trouble. Shonna learned how to make focus the priority and it gave her staying power while everyone’s business tanked.  Put pressure on the things that matter most A lot of team leaders think you get a new agent ready by teaching them the CRM. The truth is, we have to put pressure on things that move the needle. The onboarding doesn’t end when they sign a contract, it ends when they get their first deal. We have to get them into production and get them to understand the importance of being prospecting-based. That’s what gets them paid and gets them into a deal.  Even if we have the best recruiting system, it’s impossible to predict who will be great in the long-run. Even the people who interview well can end up just being all talk and nothing more. No matter how detailed your process is, you can never really tell or predict who will be successful. That means we have to open the door for more people, let people prove who they are by their actions, and then also keep the back door open so that the wrong ones get out the door quicker.For more information, connect with Shonna on LinkedIn or find her on Facebook.  CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla
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Oct 23, 2023 • 52min

Greg Whitmire on Outlasting the Real Estate Winter and Leading 2 Companies At a High Level

Real estate and mortgage are businesses where we can earn more by doubling down on the thing we know (production) or force growth through other people. Agents and LOs often choose the former, so they take steps away from buying back their time, experiencing freedom and making room for other opportunities.  Though doing more production pays us in the present, forcing growth through other people ultimately pays a much higher dividend. The sooner we take that step, the better off our lives will be.  Greg Whitmire has grown through other people and dialed in his schedule so much that he’s able to be CEO of 2 successful businesses - a mortgage company and a title one. That’s a lot of moving parts, but Greg manages it effectively.  It takes a lot of discipline and effective self-management to run and grow 2 businesses, have a great family life and do everything else you aspire to do. Greg shares his incredible approach to life and business and how he’s able to work 2 high level jobs simultaneously.  Quotes  It’s just easier to get someone to buy into a system when they don't have other systems they are used to. -Greg Whitmire Boredom is the devil for me. I have to keep myself structured, if not I’m all over the place. -Greg Whitmire  Key Points   Outlasting winter in real estateAs far as seasons go, this is definitely winter in mortgage, title and real estate. For those who are able to grow - even marginally, are the ones who will benefit when things swing the other way again. They’ll get all the deals by default because there’ll be no one else left. During the winter of 2008 and 2009, it felt like it would last forever, but it ended. You don’t even need to be growing right now to benefit in the end - even staying stagnant is as good as growing if everyone else is shrinking.  Don’t knock a newbie Sometimes hiring a new agent or LO and training them is better than teaching an old dog new tricks. It’s just easier to get someone to buy into a system when they don’t have other systems they are used to. Schools are always spitting out new agents and LOs. Everyone started as a new agent, all of the greats were brand new at one time, so don’t overlook brand new folks just because you think they lack experience.  Whether it’s the agents on our teams or the clients we help, it can be hard to empathize when people are struggling to live up to their potential. It’s frustrating to see someone not do what they need to be who we know they can become. To overcome this: we have to not hold people accountable to what we think they’re capable of, but rather what they’re own goals are.  An entrepreneur who is too tightly scheduled can’t transform In order to do what needs to get done, it’s important for us to have deliberate time blocks and schedules, but there’s a caveat. Sometimes we can have so many boundaries,it keeps us from what we want so it’s necessary to loosen up and give some leeway. Even the most dialed in calendar needs some white space  https://www.summerlinfinancial.com/ CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla 
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Oct 16, 2023 • 37min

Syed Mohsin On Becoming Our Own Zillow and the Ultimate Defense Against Disruption

In real estate, whoever controls the leads, controls the business - they call the shots. The rise of online lead sites like Zillow Flex means another way to generate leads, but also another entity making a claim on our earnings. The fact that a marketing company can come in and do something we can be equipped to do says a lot.  Our understanding of online leads and what the process of generating them needs to be corrected. Generating leads and taking them from the top to the bottom of the funnel is something we’re all capable of with the right tools.  If we want to future proof our businesses beyond next month’s and next year’s deals, learning to leverage tech and generate our own leads is a must. It’s how we stay relevant in the consumer’s mind, and how we defend ourselves getting disrupted out of business. If not, we’re doomed to basically become Zilow’s showing assistants.  For Syed Mohsin, teaching agents how to become their own Zillow is his mission. He shares how technology became such a driving force in his business, and why that’s key to our survival and continued success.  The biggest brokerages and teams who are doing big numbers are leveraging technology, online lead gen and automation. -Syed Mohsin The company that spends the most amount of money to acquire clients will always win. -Syed Mohsin Key Points   How tech became Syed’s superpowerNew real estate agents are taught to generate business from the people who already know, like and trust them. When Syed dropped out of college a lot of people who already knew him didn’t like or trust him. That meant he had to learn to generate business from people he didn’t know, and that’s how tech became such a huge factor in his business.  Real estate agents have online leads all wrongWe think a lead we bought from Zillow was generated just yesterday, but they attract and nurture it for months before handing it to an agent. That would be no different if we generated the lead ourselves and nurtured it until they were ready to sell. The problem with agents is we think if a lead isn’t ready to do a deal right this second, the system isn’t working. The life cycle of a real estate lead is long, and the people who make money are the ones who are willing to play the long game.  Work the whole funnel In real estate, we’re either taught to work top of the funnel leads or bottom of the funnel leads, but not both. We actually have to learn the art of generating a lead and moving it from the top of the funnel right down to the bottom when they are ready to sell.  The best way to approach online leadsIf you’re going to generate business through lead aggregators, you better not be transactional about it. Once you’ve done the deal, you have to put that person in your database. If not, you won’t be able to get repeat and referral business, and you’ll never get off the hamster wheel of buying leads.  The fight to stay relevant in the eyes of the consumerA lot of consumers don’t think real estate agents add as much value as technology does. In fact, technology has left a lot of them feeling like agents aren’t necessary anymore. Not only are tech companies making a claim on our commissions, they have the pieces in place to make us look obsolete in the eyes of the consumer.  CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla
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Oct 9, 2023 • 1h 2min

Dr. Benjamin Hardy On Why 10X is Easier Than 2X and How to Achieve Impossible Goals

“Our past determines our present and our future” - that’s what most of us have been taught and what we believe. What if this concept is entirely wrong? What if our future determines our present and our present determines our past? We frame time based on our past, but it’s much more powerful to frame time based on our future, that’s what the people who achieve impossible goals and unreasonable success do.  10Xing is a whole lot easier than 2Xing. When we’re operating in the 2X version of ourselves, we’re just doing more of what we’ve already been doing. When we 10X or set the intention to 10X, we unlock more growth and put ourselves in conditions that will completely transform our lives.  How do we master our past, and learn how to operate much more powerfully in the present? How do we set a 10X goal and how does this propel us further than a 2X goal?  Renowned organizational psychologist and author of many books, including “10x Is Easier Than 2x”, Dr. Benjamin Hardy talks about the concepts of the book and how we can apply them to master time.   Key Points   Understanding the trilogy “The Gap and The Gain” teaches you how to have mastery over your past. “10x is Easier” teaches us how to have mastery over our present and future. We’re all in the present moment, but everyone is having a very different experience because of our past and our future. Everything happening in the present is based on how we’re filtering our past and future. These books teach you how to operate so powerfully in the present because of what they teach you about how to handle your past and your future.  A more masterful approach to the past We assume that the past actually comes before the present but that’s not the only way to look at time. We say who we are in the present is because of the past. We can look at this completely differently, rather than having the past cause the present, we actually have the present cause the meaning of the past. The past is a skill - if you’re not very skilled with the past, you’re not going to grow very much and you’re not going to gain a lot from your experiences.  Squeeze meaning out of small increments of time In this present moment, we’re not who we were even 24 hours ago, we’re already different. The more juice we can squeeze out of a small amount of time, the more empowered we’ll be in the present and future. Recognizing the difference between our present self and past self and appreciating that difference is powerful. It also gives us the opportunity to turn our past into more of an asset rather than a liability. Even our biggest traumas or failures can be turned into our biggest gains and they can be things that pay us in the present and future. For a lot of people, their past is a liability, meaning it’s draining their present and future and they are blaming their limited present and future on the past. On the other hand, we can turn the past into something valuable that helps us instead of hindering us.  Why it’s easier to achieve impossible goals Impossible goals are easier because they force you out of your current assumptions. If something is possible, you believe you know how to do it. If we change the goal and make it truly impossible, that means we don’t know how to do it. That’s actually the best place to start because we’re no longer operating from our past. If it’s impossible, then we really can’t access it from our past. We can’t go about it in a similar way to get to the goal. If we look at our goals, chances are we’ll discover that we’re dogmatic about how we’ll go about achieving them. Setting an impossible goal forces you out of your current fixed mindset of how you have to do it.   CTA ​​Please leave us a review at https://ratethispodcast.com/nla

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