Product Thinking

In this episode of Product Thinking, Melissa Perri talks with Yasi Baiani, Senior Vice President of Product and Marketing at Cleo. They explore product management in some non-traditional senses, as well as how to set up a winning structure for your product teams and what good product leadership looks like. Yasi Baiani is a highly accomplished executive in product and strategy, startup advising, and investing, boasting a proven track record of delivering state-of-the-art products that are widely adopted by millions of people and defining new categories and markets. Under her expert leadership and strategic guidance, Cleo successfully launched two new product lines, Teens and Eldercare, which unlocked a market opportunity worth over $270 billion. In addition to her role at Cleo, Yasi is a Co-Founder and Chief Product Officer at Raya Capital, where she advises founders and CEOs on business and product strategy and invests in technology and health tech companies. Furthermore, Yasi is an investor through FlyBridge HBS Alumni Fund and a Global Leadership Advisor at How Women Lead. Her impressive achievements have earned her recognition as one of The 27 Most Impressive Harvard MBAs by Business Insider, and she has been acknowledged three times as a LinkedIn Top Voice in technology and digital health.

In this Dear Melissa segment, Melissa Perri answers subscribers’ questions about moving from B2C to SaaS companies and how we can do it effectively, getting people comfortable with product and legacy businesses, and understanding the right time to move on to another company and stop fighting the cultural change. Q&A: Q: I've been in the product space for about eight years in Cape Town, South Africa. The opportunities for SaaS companies here are super limited, and I've only ever worked on B2C products. We are now moving to Europe, where there is a plethora of SaaS companies, and I'd really love to get into that space. My question is, how can I get into that space without experience? Do you have any advice for SaaS product management-specific courses I could highlight on my LinkedIn or CV to convince potential employers I can adapt? A: The thing about SaaS and B2C product management is that our fundamentals are pretty much the same, but we use different techniques. For example, if you are in B2C, you will be doing lots of AB testing. In B2B, we're gonna do things that mitigate risk by doing beta testing or getting small groups of customer advisory boards together. So I want you to concentrate on the fundamentals of product management. Let that shine through in your resume and in your LinkedIn. Q: I'm a product manager at a financial institution that is introducing products to the organization. My question has to do with incorporating the product into a legacy business that is used to making decisions based on a need to put out fires rather than being strategic in decisions. How do I bring the executive level along to start crafting product strategies and still show that the department heads are ultimately making the decisions on what to move forward with? I'm starting to see some folks worry about losing their control over the area, which could lead them to miss targets, but that isn't what the product aims to do. Seems to be a lot of sentiment toward not wanting to do the work, to think through a problem, and instead move forward with what they think is most important on an individual level. A: Here's a situation for legacy businesses that we have to take into account. A lot of people who've been working there have been doing so for a very long time, and they may actually have things that they know to be true that could be proven by fact. Sometimes when we jump straight into product processes and start talking to people about, "Hey, we need to put the strategy together" or "We need to experiment. Hey, can we get together to figure this out?" They respond with, "But I already know. So why do you need me to figure it out? Just do what I'm telling you to do." So, one technique that I found works well is to get everybody together and start listing out your assumptions. You do want to start from the perspective of how we make sure that these GMs or the people in charge of these businesses understand that by working with product, they're actually going to get more results, more money. Q: I recently left a mid-size company where I had great product leaders because, after the company was acquired, I was no longer passionate about the mission. I didn't think I'd be able to move from a PM role to a Director of Product position without a stop at another company on my resume. I joined an internal product team at a company where I'm very passionate about the mission. The team is only two years old and took over the technology solutions from an IT leader. I took a PM role because of the mission and the opportunity to help shape an organization, which I thought would help me hone my skills for a future Director role. Now, what I'm finding is that the leaders of the product team say that they want to move towards being a product-led company but rarely take the steps to get there, and we're always too busy to. I knew that it wouldn't be easy, and I'm trying to do things like bring in product analytics tools to help drive more data-informed cultures, set up monthly forums for discussions around products, and best practices for the team to discuss how we can get better, and create interview guides that help ensure we're hiring the right type of product people. Well, you've talked about how hard this type of work is, and I understand that this type of cultural shift takes time. At what point should I start thinking about whether I've done enough to gain the skills I need to move into product leadership at another company where I can start fresh without having to convince my own team, let alone others? A: Cultural shifts take a long time, but they can set you up nicely to gain some of the skills you need as a Director of Product. But for you to think about whether it is the right time to leave, you have to consider the Director of Product skills. So, ask yourself, can I steer a team toward a larger product vision and have them execute towards that? Can I handle crafting more complicated product strategies and oversee a much larger scope? Can I effectively coach them to be great product managers? Can I set up the infrastructure that they need to succeed? Can I manage up to executives and other people in the organization and communicate my points clearly and confidently so that they have faith in me? That's the last skill that you're really working on here during that cultural change. So, if you do want to stay, here's what I would advise to try and open up the conversation a little bit more and see what could happen.

Have you ever wondered what it's like to work in product management and UX design in the government? Dana Chisnell, the Acting Executive Director for Customer Experience at Homeland Security, tells Melissa Perri what it’s like in this episode of Product Thinking. Dana shares her journey from being an independent consultant to ultimately joining Homeland Security. She describes the challenges of implementing human-centered design in a massive government organization, and the importance of proactive user research to inform service design. Listen in to learn how Dana and her team are working to improve customer experiences for the public in their interactions with DHS agencies, from TSA to FEMA. Dana Chisnell is the Acting Executive Director for Customer Experience at Homeland Security. She has over two decades of experience in UX design and research, and has worked with both private companies and government agencies. Dana is the co-founder of the Center for Civic Design, a nonprofit organization that works to improve the voting experience for all citizens. She also served on the board of the Usability Professionals' Association and is a frequent speaker at conferences on user experience design, research, and civic technology. You’ll hear Melissa and Dana talk about: Proactive user research is essential to inform service design in the government context, and to improve customer experiences for the public. Implementing human-centered design in a massive government organization like DHS requires a shift in mindset from focusing on reactive customer service to proactively understanding the needs of customers and reaching the most vulnerable. Product management and user experience design are relatively new concepts to the federal government, and there is a need to expand the pool of practitioners and build design and research ops. DHS has committed to improving customer experiences across its agencies, including FEMA, TSA, USCIS, and CBP. Dana’s team at Homeland Security is working on building and scaling design and research ops, and expanding the pool of practitioners, while also supporting the commitments made by DHS agencies under President Biden's executive order. Different government agencies have varying levels of CX and UX maturity. The government is focused on impact and improving people's lives rather than maximizing revenue, which changes the incentives for product decisions. The process of product management and user experience design is similar in the private and public sectors, but outcomes are measured differently in the government. The political climate in the Executive Office and Congress can affect the potential outcomes for the public. The challenge in government is getting stakeholders to think about outcomes rather than outputs. Demonstrating the impact that a program will have on people helps get stakeholders to shift their mindset towards outcomes. Problem focus is still applicable in government product management, just like in the private sector. When working for the government, it's important to take into account the whole population, not just a perfect persona that a private company may prioritize. Dana advises starting by working with the most vulnerable people first, such as those who have been historically marginalized, to understand their situation before moving on to other groups of personas. The power dynamic when doing user research with vulnerable people is sensitive, and it's important to not make people more vulnerable and afraid by doing the research and design work. Third parties such as vendors or nonprofits may be trained to do the work instead. Everyone on a team should do research, regardless of their role, to gain exposure to users and customers. The government measures user experience by the level of burden experienced when filling out a form. There are incentives for lowering that burden, and basic usability testing with the intended audience can help achieve this. Resources: Dana Chisnell on Website | LinkedIn | Twitter CX at Homeland Security

In this Dear Melissa segment, Melissa Perri answers subscribers’ questions about changes and new features in SAFe 6.0, how to improve alignment and transparency between project managers on the same team while meeting the needs of the different stakeholders, and what it takes to implement business OKRs successfully. Q&A: Q: I just finished a significant dev project in the FinTech industry. There were about thirty-five product managers in the company. I took a role as a senior product manager, and they made everyone go through SAFe. Their commitment to SAFe was about a ten, and their commitment to outcomes was about a two. So what is the deal with SAFe? Have you seen this improved output in any of your encounters with it? It didn't seem agile or lean to me. A: I have not seen anybody actually succeed in implementing SAFe in a way where we focus more on the outcomes instead of doing the actual process. People turn to SAFe because they want the instruction manual. But the problem with that is they stop thinking for themselves about what is right and wrong and whether we are actually delivering outcomes. And that's my biggest issue with it. But this is a great time to look at SAFe 6.0 and see what's happening here. Q: I'm a product operations manager at a medium size company operating in the field of digital health. The company has been growing fast in the last couple of years, and the number of PMs and projects has also grown, making it more difficult to collaborate and stay. ...To improve alignment between the main people involved in those areas, we decided to form a PM designer's team. The team currently includes five product managers, including senior and junior PMs, and is led by a Head of Product, as well as three designers and senior designers led by a Head of Design. However, we've been struggling to identify how to set up things to become a well-functioning team. ...On the other hand, the team has an urgent need to align on the product roadmap, but we haven't found an effective way of doing that yet. Do you have any recommendations on how to set up this kind of team while meeting the needs of the different stakeholders? What kind of virtuals and processes could help us? A: The main idea behind product operations is one of enablement, not micromanagement. When you think of product operations, cadences and governance are a big part of your role, and it's about getting the right people in the right room so that you can review the things that you need. Now, if you have this new product management and design team, the leaders will want some transparency in the roadmap. But they don't need to know everybody's tiny task. Here’s what I think could help your team. Q: Our tech department is small and in the growth stage, and we have recently implemented business OKRs with key results, but we're not sure what to do next. We don't have the team structure set up correctly. We don't empower the teams. We don't seem to have a product or business strategy for digital products. How would you approach a situation with our product lead and stakeholders? A: If there's no guiding strategy, how did you come up with the OKRs? To me, they're probably going to be a little messy, and they're not gonna be focused on the outcomes we are trying to achieve. People put the OKRs all on the team level and don't roll them up. You should have three levels of OKRs that roll up to the business goals. So that might be a good place to start with your business leads and stakeholders. 658076

Do you struggle to get buy-in for your product-led initiatives? Are you having a hard time convincing executives and colleagues to embrace the change? In this episode of Product Thinking, Melissa Perri talks with Christian Idiodi, Partner at Silicon Valley Product Group. They explore the key elements of successful product transformations: through his years of experience, Christian has observed that emotional intelligence, humility, and a willingness to transform yourself are key drivers of successful organizational change. He shares valuable insights on how to build trust and read the room, in order to transform your organization into an empowered, customer-focused team. Christian Idiodi is a Partner at Silicon Valley Product Group (SVPG), where he advises and coaches executives, product teams, and leaders on how to build great products. With over 200 products built in his career, Christian has experience in the HR technology space, financial services, and marketplaces. Before joining SVPG, Christian led a major transformation at Merrill Corporation for several years. You’ll hear Melissa and Christian talk about: Emotional intelligence and awareness are critical for product managers to gain buy-in from stakeholders and executives. Arrogance and ego can hinder organizational change and transformation efforts. People are often promoted to leadership positions without adequate training or development, leading to insecurities and impostor syndrome. To get buy-in, seek to understand the needs, goals, and reward structures of key stakeholders and executives. Product managers should do discovery on key people in the organization, including executives, to understand their perspectives and challenges. It's important to understand the reward structure and incentives of executives, and it's okay to ask about it directly. Creating a user manual for managers or stakeholders can help product managers better understand their perspectives and motivations. The true stakeholders of a transformation effort are usually a small group of people with high levels of interest and influence, and understanding their perspectives is critical. Ask open-ended questions and show a genuine interest in the success of stakeholders and executives; this can help to build trust and facilitate buy-in. All problems in a transformation are people problems, and leaders need to coach their teams to play a new game. Success in product management is not about the title, but about the impact on the environment. Emotional intelligence and the ability to read a room are crucial skills for product managers and executives to succeed in their roles. Arrogance, ego, and imposter syndrome can hold product leaders back from developing their emotional intelligence and reading the room. Building trust is essential for product leaders to establish themselves as competent and credible. Positioning yourself as ignorant and seeking to learn from others can help you build trust and establish productive relationships. Tailor your presentations and communication style to your audience’s preferences can help you connect with them and read the room effectively. Organizational transformation starts with individual transformation of leaders who are willing to put in the effort to change themselves and their environments. Successful transformations often have strong product leadership, competent product managers, and an empowered culture. A powerful indicator of an empowered organization is when engineers can articulate their work in the same language as top executives. Resources: Christian Idiodi on LinkedIn | Twitter | SVPG Silicon Valley Product Group

Topics discussed include challenges of promoting product discovery, balancing thinking and doing, involving the sales team in the process, building products without 100% certainty, and the importance of non-threatening conversations and product thinking.

Melissa Perri is joined by Christina Pawlikowski, a teaching fellow at Harvard and co-founder of Causal, to help demystify machine learning and AI on this episode of Product Thinking. Christina discusses language models, the different types of machine learning, how they can be used to solve problems, and the importance of good data and ethical considerations when using machine learning algorithms. Christina Pawlikowski is a teaching fellow at Harvard University and co-founder of Causal, a company that helps businesses make better decisions with causal inference.  You’ll hear Melissa and Christina talk about: How machine learning is essentially creating an algorithm or a model that can make good predictions based on data. There are three types of machine learning: supervised learning, unsupervised learning, and reinforcement learning. Good training data is crucial for machine learning algorithms to be effective. When considering using machine learning, it's important to ask questions about things like how complex the decision that needs to be made is, whether the model has to produce a definitive answer, how high the stakes are, and how quickly the answer needs to come back. Ethical considerations are important when feeding data into a machine-learning model, especially when making decisions with high stakes. GPT-3 and Chat GPT are examples of language models that use neural nets to generate predictions about what word or sentence comes next based on probabilities. The accuracy of a machine learning model is only as good as the quality of the data that is fed into it. When incorporating ML into a product, it's important to plan for scenarios where the model is wrong and to consider ethical considerations such as false positives and false negatives. Data scientists play a crucial role in assembling and cleaning training data, building and testing the model, and deploying it in production. The process may involve collaboration with machine learning engineers or other teams. The cadence of working on machine learning is different from working on traditional UX-focused teams, with more downtime and exploratory time upfront. Slack time is important for data scientists and machine learning engineers to keep up with new techniques, write papers, and attend conferences. Artificial general intelligence is probably further off than we think, and AI alignment is an important field to prevent any negative outcomes. Resources: Christina Pawlikowski on LinkedIn | Twitter  Casual Labs

In this Dear Melissa segment, Melissa Perri answers subscribers’ questions about how to do a product strategy audit, offering professional services to one-off clients, and how to choose whether to stay on at the company in a new capacity. Q: What steps, processes and resources would you recommend for conducting a product strategy audit? I'm considering a new role in product strategy, and I think the best place to start is a comprehensive review of the current strategy to the extent that it exists and how our product plans align with it.  A: That is the best place to do a product strategy audit, but you have to hit it from two sides. This is what I do when I go in to do a product strategy audit. Q: One of our clients requires a custom SSO integration with a good amount of complexity. The client is expecting us to deliver it as professional services. They are paying for it, so they want a clear Gantt chart project plan and a project manager that can deliver on time, on scope, and on budget. I don't have technical project managers on my team, only product managers who are more discovery oriented and are used to building products, not as a service. I don't have enough professional service work to hire a project manager to be fully dedicated to this kind of work. …Any tips on how to handle this situation in the short term? While we can't hire someone specific for this role, how should we share roles and responsibilities between product tech and customer service? A: I feel like there's some underlying problems that I'm picking out of this that are not just related to roles and responsibilities. Here’s how I would deal with this issue. Q: I'm a team lead in a three person business intelligence team for a small company. We're currently undergoing a merger into a much larger enterprise with over 8000 staff. I'm seeing indicators that the product people in the larger enterprise have little interest involving me in product discovery and strategy, which areas of the previous environment that I really enjoyed. One stated they judge me as one of their technical people, which I interpret as they don't see a place for me in product discovery and direction. I believe I need to decide if I want to be a purely technical resource or find another job where I'm more welcome at the product discovery and strategy table. Are you able to give me any advice on navigating this situation?  A: I'm slightly mad that all of these product managers are completely dismissing you, and you are a fantastic resource. This is crazy. So here's the thing. Business intelligence is a critical skill. They might not understand what you actually do. So let's start with that… Resources Melissa Perri on LinkedIn | Twitter MelissaPerri.com | CPO Accelerator

What challenges do product managers face in highly regulated industries like healthcare and finance? In this episode of the Product Thinking podcast, Melissa Perri speaks with Colin Anawaty about his journey to co-founding First Dollar and the challenges of navigating a highly regulated industry. Colin shares his insights on Health Savings Accounts (HSAs), the benefits of utilizing them, and why he thinks they should be more widely available to all Americans. He also discusses the importance of personal and career growth within startups, and the value of providing clear career paths to employees. He describes how First Dollar evolved into a platform, and how their focus on addressing healthcare inequities and tying together healthcare and finance can lead to incentivizing better outcomes for all.  Colin Anawaty is the Chief Product Officer of First Dollar, a health wallet platform that provides its services to plan administrators to help consumers utilize their health benefits more easily and effectively. Colin has over six years of experience in healthcare and previously worked in the prepaid industry. Before joining First Dollar, Colin worked at athenahealth, where he and Melissa first met. Colin is a product management expert with a strong focus on healthcare and finance and has a passion for helping people make the most of their healthcare benefits. Here are some ideas you’ll hear Colin and Melissa discuss: Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) are a type of account created by the US government to make healthcare more affordable through pre-tax contributions. Unlike other benefits, such as FSAs and HRAs, HSAs can be kept even after leaving employment and can be invested for future use. Colin believes that HSAs should be more widely available to all Americans. The healthcare and finance industries are complex and highly regulated, and it can be challenging for product managers to become subject matter experts in both areas. Colin and his team learned about the industries by using resources such as industry experts and advisory boards, and they also hired people who had a mix of product management experience and expertise in either healthcare or finance. When hiring product managers for a startup, Colin looks for people who have the drive to learn and grow, and who have taken courses in product management. It's important to align product managers with the product lines they oversee and to focus on problem discovery and working with customers. Product managers need to be curious and open to learning about new things, especially when dealing with complexity. Formal training, subject matter experts, and nonprofit organizations can all help product managers get up to speed on regulations and compliance. Embedding security ops and compliance into the culture of a company can make it less scary and more manageable for everyone involved. Creating a consumer advisory board or incorporating customer engagement into terms of service can help companies navigate legal and compliance issues when trying to work directly with end users. Big companies prioritize change management and stability, while startups prioritize velocity and rapid iteration to achieve product-market fit. First Dollar started with a mission to help people shop for care but pivoted to become a platform for HSAs and FSAs. Resources: Colin Anawaty on LinkedIn | Twitter | Instagram  First Dollar

In this Dear Melissa segment, Melissa Perri answers subscribers’ questions about how product managers and product owners should work together, product management trend predictions and what the future of product might look like, and what to do when your CEO is misdirecting blame toward product management.  Q: You've been involved in product management for a while, and I would love to see where you feel the evolution of product management is headed. A: I think it's really hard to talk about where PM is going because it's still not fully functioning in many companies yet…I'll tell you some of the trends that I am seeing, though.  Q: My organization is scaling, and now we have product managers and product owners. How should we work together? A: You know that I’m not a fan of the split of product managers and product owners- here’s why. Q: Our CEO is putting the blame on product management because not as much as we want is being delivered. How can we change the perception that product management is the cause without throwing our devs under the bus?  A: We're going to start from a place of everybody is trying their best. You need to educate the CEO about what the problems are, and you need to do that as a united front. Here’s how to do that.  Resources Melissa Perri on LinkedIn | Twitter MelissaPerri.com | CPO Accelerator