The Leadership Podcast

Jason Field is an Executive Coach, Outdoor Professional, Expedition Leader, and Past President and CEO of W.L. Gore & Associates. He’s a board member, an entrepreneur, and a veterinarian. His focus is to develop great leaders to be force multipliers for their teams. The discussion covers a team’s responsibility, decision-making, the principles of problem-solving, and the role of process to obtain and maintain focus on the customer. The discussion also includes insights from Jason on his role as a guide for hikes into the Grand Canyon. Jason encourages you to work hard, follow your interests, and chase experiences.     Key Takeaways [2:43] Jason has been married for 16 years. His son just turned 14 and is starting to surpass Jason in capability in just about everything they do together.   [5:05] Adaptability and creative thinking are desirable attributes in many organizations but may be in tension with process and structure. Adaptability and creative thinking are behavioral expressions of a culture. These traits are not desirable in every case, such as when making suture needles, for example, that need a lot of process rigor to come out exactly the same way every time. [5:56] If adaptability and creative thinking are desired outputs, you need leadership levers like the Galbraith Star Model™. You design adaptability and creative thinking into the organization. You look at strategy, structure, processes, rewards, and people to get the behaviors of adaptability and creative thinking as outputs. [6:22] Adaptability and creative thinking go with belief systems and values. You start with the people you bring into the organization. If you bring people in who are highly rule-oriented, it’s going to be hard to pull adaptability and creative thinking out. [7:30] The Gore company emphasized the power of small teams with the most knowledgeable associate taking responsibility for decision-making. Decision rights don’t come from being a leader. A leader in a small team has the responsibility of facilitating a decision-making process and pointing to the most knowledgeable associates. This all requires the team to have organizational strategic clarity. [8:22] You complement small teams with process. If the idea is to be adaptable and draw upon the creative thinkers on the team, you need processes that will move relevant information to the teams in a timely manner so they can act according to the best information. [8:39] Processes should do two things: enable and expedite decision-making and mitigate risks. In the case of teams, it’s mainly about expediting decision-making. [8:51] Rewards make sure you are celebrating business wins when you see teams operating in that adaptable mindset and drawing upon their creativity. [9:20] The Pairin Survey identifies people with high objective and analytical scores versus people with high intuitive and conceptual scores. Most teams are strong in objective and analytical scores for solving problems. Intuitive and conceptual scores relate to being good at understanding the root causes and seeing trends and patterns.   [10:14] Having the right leader at the right time means being able to draw upon both individuals with strong analytical skills and individuals with strong intuitive skills, that can draw out insights from others, depending on the problem or opportunity that’s being presented. [10:58] Jim points out how Jason had clarified an assumption in the first topic of adaptability and creative thinking: Are they desirable in every scenario? Then Jason talked about when they are not helpful and when you need them. How do we encourage people to ask the right questions and clarify their assumptions? [11:53] Jason tells how active listening works for him. He suggests that it’s a powerful thing for leaders to step back and ask themselves what an individual is trying to get across to them and ask the right questions and get the right assumptions on the table as they engage in problem-solving. [13:07] When Jason has an employee engagement, he is trying to inspire them while deriving information for himself. It’s a two-way street. For engaging people, first, demonstrate an interest in what that individual or team is doing. Draw people to the higher purpose of the strategy of the organization. Demonstrate that you care about them. [14:20] Jason and Jim role-play a conversation. Jim is an engineer working on a product development team and Jason is an executive who pops into the office and asks what Jim’s working on. As they talk, Jason shows interest, asks follow-up questions, points to organizational strategy and tying to the customer, uses active listening, adds personal encouragement, and offers help for resources. [17:28] Deconstructing the role-play, the leader makes sure the person knows the leader is listening by repeating and validating what the person says, taps into the personal impact of how the person feels, and how the leader can help. These things are attributes of an energizing discussion. The leader asks how the person knows they are being successful, looking at their place in the organization. [19:20] The best way to inculcate the core values into the organization is to demonstrate them. You’ve got to walk the talk. Jason says that it’s a competitive advantage to being a purpose-driven organization that’s incorporated its values into the fabric of its operation. Jason leans pretty hard on that type of work. This assumes you’ve done the hard work to identify values that are true to the organization. [20:37] When you have your organizational values, incorporate them into your mission, vision, and strategy. Those are the pillars upon which your organization’s direction is built. Then draw on those components and demonstrate the values in your products, services, and decision-making frameworks in the organization. At the end of the day, those values characterize your brand. [21:59] Integrity is one value Jason sees a lot. Integrity may be subject to interpretation. Integrity has a dependence upon the values that sit behind it. Make sure you know how your key stakeholders are interpreting integrity. Military veterans often say integrity is choosing the hard right vs. the easy wrong. [23:55] When the board and leadership align with the core values and demonstrate them, that brings alignment around the value of integrity. Brand strategist Tom Storey told Jason that value is “A promise made and kept by the entire organization and experienced by our customers.” [24:39] Keep those values front and center in your decisions so you create experiences that reinforce them. Celebrate the individuals, teams, and products that demonstrate the values you hold dear. That’s how you start to embed those values into organizations. [26:25] Jason shared his thoughts about personal responsibility. Can it be taught? There is a “nurture” component in surrounding people with others that demonstrate accountability and commitment to an outcome. The peer environment might be the strongest driver of personal accountability. The Special Forces environment creates a very high expectation of dependency on one another. [27:30] Leaders can draw out that discretionary effort in a way that’s rewarding to the individual. Use a rewards system that addresses various levels in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. The financial component can elevate people to a limited degree to rise to challenges. The personal recognition of catching people doing things right is energizing. Help people understand their place on the team and in the organization. [28:43] Be purpose-oriented. Show how products and services contribute to a greater good and make a difference in the world. Jason’s favorite rewards system is giving people the freedom to operate individually, drawing on their strengths to make a difference in the organization. [30:23] There are individual incentives and team incentives that can be used to encourage performance. Jason leans toward understanding what you are trying to create and whether you are relying heavily on team-based outcomes or you need individuals to get into the lab and grind away toward solutions and outcomes. Jason’s bias is to revert to the power of teams. But Bob Gore invented Gore-Tex individually. [31:07] You can’t look past individual accomplishments and assume the team will come together and deliver a better outcome because it’s a team. There are different environments and different problems that call for different solutions. To the extent you can see that, as a leader, is how you should build your incentive structure [32:08] What derails leaders? Jason says it’s losing sight of the market and getting disconnected from sales. It’s easy to become internally focused and pull internal levers to optimize an organization, moving away from the market and the customer. You might drive value creation in the near term but miss market signals for long-term opportunities. Optimize for the near term and Invest for the long term. [34:08] One of the most important lessons Jason learned, mid-career, as he was transitioning into product leadership was clarity of purpose and the role process plays. Jason was working in medical devices and the stakes are high in that product category and a lot of risk. The division leader went to all meetings when there was a product issue that could have a patient impact. [35:45] The division leader always brought clarity by asking what is the process telling us, and is the process benefitting us? If the process isn’t giving us clarity as to what the answer might be, we probably don’t have a good process in place. Jason’s takeaway was the role process plays in helping to understand the root cause of what’s going on. If the process isn’t giving the answer, make some changes. [36:28] The final answer never comes from the product. What is all the data telling you, and how does that translate into the impact on the customer? In medical devices, of course, patients are the most important. Keep what is most important to your organization front and center in decisions when things don’t go as planned. [37:30] Jason has been an outdoor enthusiast his entire life. In the past year, he started guiding in the Grand Canyon. It has been absolutely fascinating. When you’re a guide in that setting, people are out of their element and hold guides in high regard. Jason hosts a picnic lunch and insists on doing all the cleaning. It sends the message that he’s there to serve and a reminder of the power of service. [39:09] People hiking into the Grand Canyon have varying levels of physical fitness. The two things to be most concerned about on the hike are dehydration and heat exhaustion. You need people to be on point and listening, from the very start of the trailhead. It is very hard to keep people focused and get to where you want them to go. Pace matters. There are no easy hikes into the canyon and out. [40:18] You have to get the right feedback mechanisms in place. Verbal communication can be one of the worst ways to get feedback on a hike. You have to set up mechanisms to get guest feedback. Are they stumbling? How much water are they drinking? Jason counts water bottles. Organization leaders also have to be aware that much is non-verbal. Set up feedback mechanisms. Pay attention. [43:16] Jason offers three core elements that come together to create a high likelihood of success: Work hard, follow your interests, and chase experiences. If Jason hadn’t chased the experience of a crucible with Jan, he probably wouldn’t be doing outdoor leadership experiences and executive coaching now. He thanks Jan for that. It was walking the talk. [44:40] Closing quote: Remember, “” — Howard Thurman   Quotable Quotes “What Gore has really done well, historically, is emphasize the power of small teams. Not only small teams but, in addition, … emphasis on the most knowledgeable employee … taking responsibility for decision-making. … Decision rights don’t come with being a leader.” — Jason “If the idea is to be adaptable and really draw upon the creative thinkers on the team, you have to think about processes that are going to move information to those teams in a timely manner so they’ve got relevant information.” — Jason “Depending on the problem or the opportunity that’s presented, you want to be able to draw upon those individuals that have the deep analytical skills or those that can kind of characterize the problem and draw out the insights from others to orient the team.” — Jason “Integrity has a dependency on all the other values that sit behind it.” — Jason “Celebrate those individuals, those teams, and those products that are demonstrative of the values that you hold dear. And that’s how you start to embed this into organizations.” — Jason “When a leader is willing to pick up a broom or pick up trash, the message that sends to the organization is pretty cool.” — Jason “A lot of times when you ask those questions, you don’t always get honest answers, so you’ve gotta have those other cues that are feeding you information.” — Jason “The hard work comes easy when the interest level is high.” — Jason   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Mike is the author of “Leadership in Balance and Management in Balance,” the founder of Crispian Consulting, and a retired Army officer. Mike shares his thoughts on balance and equilibrium, and what that means for management versus leadership. Contained in this episode is essential advice for newly-minted leaders, and a discussion on learning tools. At the end of the episode is a great “both/and” challenge!     Key Takeaways [3:05] Mike played rugby as a Military Academy cadet. He had a lot of fun with his teammates. Rugby helped him develop into the person he is. [4:05] Jim met Mike as a keynote speaker, speaking about balance and being a fulcrum. Jim took a lot of notes. Mike defines balance for leaders and managers. It’s not things being equal, it’s the equilibrium of a work/life balance. Mike talks about managers spending up to 80 hours a week at work. That doesn’t leave equal hours to spend with your family. When you’re home, give them your undivided attention. [6:23] Mike teaches “both/and” as an alternative to the “either/or” way of looking at problems. The vast majority of things in life are not dilemmas where you must make one or the other choice. Most questions involve equilibrium or equipoise. Apply the right amount of each choice to where it balances. Mike says to be the fulcrum. Be the point on which balance is achieved. [7:49] Mike writes about four central domains in leadership: Communication, Adaptability, Focus, and Influence. You can find an equilibrium but the environment is constantly changing so your equilibrium will also change. Mike works with people to be ready for change. A key part of the model is situational awareness. What’s going on in the environment that’s different from your natural tendency? [10:11] Mike admits there were times as an Army officer when he should have given more direct orders. Instead of telling people why something was important to do, he needed to tell them how to do it. He didn’t always recognize what the situation demanded of him so he couldn’t be the fulcrum. [12:14] While doing the Audible version of his first book. Leadership in Balance, Mike realized that the four central domains have descriptive names. Communication is the Foundational Domain, upon which leadership is built. The other three domains rely on effective communication. Focus is the Purpose Domain. Adaptability is the Action Domain. Influence is the Mission Domain. [14:27] Mike’s second book, Management in Balance, is out now. It covers four domains, Time, Material, Risk, and Change. [15:08] Mike addresses the mindsets of abundance and scarcity. What is your attitude about an abundance of risk, versus a scarcity of risk, or an abundance of material, versus a scarcity of material? Mike quotes former Green Beret Kevin Owens: “The most innovative people I know are poor.” The conditions are the conditions, so we have to deal with the condition, whether abundance or scarcity. [16:50] Are you seeing risks that are not there? Are you not seeing risks that are present and are you becoming reckless? The balance comes into play in that as a manager you have to deal with the current condition honestly and as it exists but you have to prepare yourself and your team for that shift that is going to come. Supply chain issues are examples of shifts. Adjust to conditions as they change. [19:39] Using an Army metaphor, you need to position yourself where you can best influence the action. You might need to stand back a bit to have a wider view and receive news from outside organizations. Or you might go to the front lines to direct people who don’t know what to do. That’s one of the ultimate leadership calls. The same principle applies in a business context. [20:29] Being the fulcrum is creating the ability for equilibrium by managing resources and assigning tasks. Mike says ultimately, time management is task management; how you prioritize and assign tasks. That’s the nexus of leadership and management. Position yourself as a leader/manager where you can do the most to create equilibrium in these areas. Be open to signals coming from the environment. [21:33] Empowerment and subordinate development consist of pushing decisions down as far as you can send them. Stan McChrystal taught MIke to get the authority down to where decisions can be made most effectively. Mike notes that Ukraine is using that model now, based on U.S. assistance from 2014. Mike asks, are you doing it well, are you doing it right, and are you doing it in a way that makes sense? [23:04] The fulcrum creates balance based on where it’s positioned along the lever. You, the leader/manager create balance by how you influence, position yourself, lead, and manage in these domains access your organization. [24:28] Mike discusses newly promoted “player-coaches.” Both of Mike’s books are intended for new managers and also senior leaders who are responsible to promote new managers and leaders and he invites leaders to make these decisions thoughtfully and intentionally.[26:07] The first thing anyone entering into a new position needs to decide is whether they want a job or a career. Get it wrong and you will be miserable to be on the wrong path. And senior management needs to be able to look at you and see if you have leadership potential and the desire for a career. Are you willing to make the physical, emotional, and mental sacrifices that leadership requires? [29:20] Sometimes we get frustrating answers from asking the wrong questions. Sometimes our ego stands in the way of asking the better question because we don’t want to know the answer. Or we overlook that we might have been wrong previously. Surround yourself with smart people. Put together a smart team with at least one person who asks, “What are we missing? What is another possibility?” [30:29] Always look for the third option. Don’t let decisions be either X or Not-X. Having one more option forces you to think more deeply about the problem and how that plays out as a solution. Most of us quickly make decisions based on experience. Step back and ask some other smart people what they’re seeing. Reframe the problem. Mike tells how he addressed an IED problem to improve mobility. [34:03] Remember that everything you do as a team or an individual is a performance cycle. A performance cycle has four steps: Plan, Prepare, Execute, and Review. Don’t skip the Review step, especially if you succeed, because it will help you plan better for the next performance cycle. [37:21] Mike’s next book focuses on management and leadership as a “both/and” proposition and will speak to executives. Mike discusses the risk to mission, the risk to people, and the risk to reputation. You have to know where those three types of risks are lurking. Manage to mitigate that risk to your people, your mission, and your reputation. Look for opportunities to find acceptable risk and grab market share. [40:43] Mike wrote the second book to define management, setting the stage for his next book, covering leadership and management. New managers always ask Mike whether management or leadership is more important. The better question is, how are they different and when do you do each? The domains for the Management/Leadership equipoise are: What, How, When, and Why? [42:45] Mike’s challenge for listeners: Find the “both/and.” When you think you’re on the horns of a dilemma, step back for a minute and ask, “Is this really an either/or proposition, or is there some question of equilibrium that needs to be found between these competing demands?” If you do that, you may find that you are more effective and a lot happier in your role. [44:07] Closing quote: “There is no decision that we can make that doesn’t come with some sort of balance or sacrifice.” — Simon Sinek   Quotable Quotes “A lot of people, their thoughts immediately go to things being equal; … a balanced scale. … Balance is not about things being equal. Balance is about finding equilibrium; a work/life balance.” — Mike “The equilibrium comes in when you’re home, giving them your undivided attention, putting your work aside, and getting involved in the things they’re involved in.” — Mike “The vast majority of things are a question of balance, equilibrium, equipoise: to take these things that are in contention with each other and apply the right amount of each to where it balances.” — Mike “That’s why the ‘be the fulcrum’ thing comes into play. That’s my reminder to everybody that you’ve got to be the point on which balance, equilibrium, is achieved.” — Mike “As an Army officer, … I wanted to be more indirect in how I influenced people. I was very much, ‘This is what you’ve got to do and this is why it’s important,’ not, ‘this is how you’re going to do it.’ … There were situations where I should have been more like that.” — Mike “I've been asking a lot of clients lately, ‘What’s the most important thing that you do, and are you getting better at it every day?’ And almost invariably, it boils down to their ability to communicate.” — Jan “Limiting resources can make people very resilient. The most innovative people I know are poor.” — Former Green Beret Kevin Owens, quoted by Mike Lerario “If you’re in the retail business now, you’ve seen this roller coaster. You had a lot and all of a sudden, maybe people didn’t have money, and then people got money and they’re buying all your stuff and the supply chain gets impacted because there are 50 ships backed up.” — Mike “[Speaking] as an Army guy, one of the most important lessons is that you need to position yourself where you can best influence the action. In some cases that might mean that you’re standing back and you have a wider view of the battlefield.” — Mike “The fulcrum creates balance based on where it’s positioned along the lever. You, the leader/manager create balance by how you influence, position yourself, lead, and manage in these domains access your organization.” — Mike “I’m a firm believer that, especially with decision making, you have to find a third option, always. If you’re looking at the decisions as, ‘I’ve got to do A or I’ve got to do B,’ or ‘I’ve got to do X or Not-X,’ you’re going to fail. … You have a higher probability of failure.” — Mike   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

This episode is about the importance of finding the underlying causes for today’s common leadership challenges. It’s about not making the mistake of treating symptoms versus the underlying root cause. Learn how curiosity can inspire and provide insight. Often, the objective, analytic thinking that propelled you to the C-suite now needs to be paired with intuition and conceptualization for you to see the trends and patterns of issues. If you’re not a CEO, you can learn to think like one and increase your value to the organization. Listen to the end for the listener challenge!     Key Takeaways [1:26] This week’s topic: focusing on the problem. Jim recently talked to a client who had set a goal. The goal was a solution to a problem, for example, buying a new system that would run the company and fix everything. While talking about the solution, the client was not talking enough about the problem. Solving the problem is the goal. Does this solution, or another solution, solve the problem? [3:01] Jim thinks this is important because as consultants and coaches, Jan and Jim’s job is to dig into the problem, not just provide a solution. Jim worked with Bard Press on a book, and his contact, Todd, kept reminding him to focus on the problem. Jan and Jim recently interviewed Dre Baldwin who also said to focus on the problem! So this is a timely topic. [3:47] Jan quotes guest Brian Caulfield saying, “Sell the problem, not the solution,” as the most quotable quote of the podcast. When people look at problems, they often neglect to look for the root cause. They come up with an “either this or that” solution; the best solution might be “this and that.” Jan refers to Peter Senge and the Fifth Discipline, using systems thinking to figure out the problem. [4:45] The Pairin Behavioral Surveys that Jan has run find that 95% of the time, people score very high in Objective-Analytical and very low in Intuitive-Conceptual. Intuitive-Conceptual is about understanding the root causes of things and being open-minded. [6:18] When Jim does sales training, he goes back to Sandler for the Dummy Curve. When you get a new salesperson, who doesn’t know a lot about the product, but they’re successful right away, for two reasons: They don’t know enough about the product to talk about the product, so they ask a lot of questions centered around the problem. That creates an affinity with the customer. [7:48] Does the product solve the problem? No one cares how the product works if it solves the problem. Focus on the problem. When you don’t know how the product works, you have no choice but to focus on the problem. You ask questions that define the problem better. If the sales force knows too much, they want to show their mastery and talk more. That ruins the sale. [8:25] The Dummy Curve is that you come in, you have success, and then you lose it the more you learn. Jim coaches leaders not to train new salespeople too much on the product. Talk to them about the problem that their product solves. Coach them on the business problems people have that invite your product and solution. Have them be more curious about those. [9:25] Jan sees this episode as emphasizing the power of the question. Jan has been coaching about coaching and asking difficult questions. A better approach to a difficult conversation is “Hey, Jim, how do you think that meeting went?” rather than “Hey, Jim, you know what you did in that meeting?” The higher up we go, we need to be better about the questions. [10:16] Jan coached someone about presenting to a high level in the organization. The presenter was rehearsing what to say to influence a decision. Jan asked, “What objections and resistances do you expect?” They discussed how answers to objections could be questions and they considered sample questions. Questions don’t have power unless you’re curious about the problem and the root cause. [11:40] Talk about task conflict and not personal conflict. Depersonalize the difficult conversation. Focus on the issues. What is the problem that we need to solve together? Jan brings up an example of heating service people who got to the root cause of his problem. If you understand the root cause, you can at least put a bandage on it. Without knowing the root cause, that’s about all you can do. [14:47] Some reasons people are content with a bandage instead of getting to the root of the problem are that they don’t have time, they don’t care, competing priorities, or having so many problems crossing their desks that they don’t notice how big one specific problem is. They don’t have curiosity, or they have a bias toward quick action. Jan compares it to being seen by a dismissive doctor. [18:01] Jim refers to his upcoming book. The first part of the book is about diagnosing business symptoms. We sometimes mistake the symptom for the problem. Jim shares a story from the book about his father, having abdominal pain in his 60s. The doctor refused to look at the pain as the problem but recognized it as a symptom of an abdominal aortic aneurysm. She saved his life with surgery. [22:08] Jan explains the levers of change: people, incentives, structure, and process. Leaders are rewarded for being problem solvers so the incentive is to solve problems fast. At a certain point, when they start taking on high levels of responsibility, the job shifts from doing to thinking. Jan tells people to think like a designer. Look at each lever. It’s not always an issue for coaching to solve. [24:25] If you’re not the CEO but you want to be a valuable employee, think like a CEO. Help the CEO see what they might not be seeing. CEOs need to look at the broad performance of the organization and see the patterns, then dig and understand what’s behind those patterns. Past guest, Jim Gilmore, author of Look, wrote about seeing through binoculars, field glass, and microscope. CEOs need a field glass. [26:35] People are worried about budgeting for the next year and they’re all worried about low sales numbers. They’re looking for things to cut from the budget instead of asking what it would take to increase their sales for the next year. Jan always asks where the assumptions behind the budget are coming from.  [28:07] Jan notes that scaling means doing more with less by getting more productive and becoming more efficient. Jim asserts that the companies that don’t panic during downtimes but invest wisely can grow at great paces compared to those who batten the hatches and shrink. Always seek to understand the problem before solving it. [29:30] Look at the number of companies that were created and grew prodigiously in the Great Depression. The Great Depression was awful. The tech giants of today did not panic during the dot.com bust. They doubled down and grew. There are opportunities all the time but if you’re fixated on a solution, you will not see the opportunities that surround you. [30:39] Jim offers an audience challenge: Pay close attention over the week. Listen twice as much as you talk and listen for where you hear either yourself or other people so enamored with a solution that they are missing the real point of understanding the problem. If you recognize that moment, redirect the conversation; ask a question to understand. You will find a more productive outcome on the other side. [32:03] Jan reflects that Jim’s audience challenge will take temperance, self-discipline, and self-awareness to understand your effect on other people. Jim and Jan invite you to get in touch with your feedback on these Jim and Jan episodes and suggestions for what subjects you would like Jim and Jan to talk about next. [33:18] Closing quote: Remember, “It isn’t that they can’t see the solution. It is that they can’t see the problem.” —   Quotable Quotes “When we spend too much time talking about the solution, the trap we fall into is that we limit the possibilities for what the real solution could be because we’re not spending enough time talking about the problem.” — Jim “What course of action is going to be the best path toward the future?” — Jim “It goes back to the Fifth Discipline — what Peter Senge wrote about systems thinking.” — Jan “I say to leaders, ‘What got you here is your ability to see patterns … and make quick decisions. … But those quick decisions are based on paradigms and biases. As a high-level leader, you need to suspend that, have … an open mind, and figure out what’s causing this.’” — Jan “Talk to [new salespeople] about the problem that your product solves. Coach them on the business problems people have with regard to your product and solution.” “We need to talk about process and task conflict and not personal conflict.” — Jim “Too many times, we look at a symptom and we don’t realize — we think it’s the problem but it’s just the symptom and … the real business problems are masked by those symptoms.” — Jim “Everybody’s got blinders on.” — Peter Drucker, quoted by Jan “If you’re not the CEO but you want to be a really valuable employee, think like a CEO.” — Jan “We all know that scaling means you’re doing more with less. Not because we’re working people harder but because we’re getting smarter, we’re getting more productive, and we’re getting more efficient. Not because we’re driving people like machines.” — Jan “Look at the number of companies that were created and grew prodigiously in the Great Depression. … You could say times were different, but they’re not.” — Jim   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: Interact with Jan and Jim on , , , and

Jan Rutherford and Jim Vaselopulos, the hosts of The Leadership Podcast, explore core values based on the six cardinal virtues. Follow the discussion in this important episode to be reminded how the cardinal virtues apply in life and at work, and how you and your organization can move forward by going back to the fundamentals of leadership.   Key Takeaways [1:25] Jan and Jim have both received a lot of very positive texts about Episode 332, featuring Richie Norton, who talked about the brevity of life. Jan sees that people are planning frantically for next year. [3:05] Leaders are making sure they don’t get caught up in emotions but look at the facts. Jim refers to past guest Alan Beaulieu and ITR Economics. The slowdown we’re feeling is a slowdown in the rate of growth, not a recession. Slowing from 25% growth to 9% growth feels like the airbags just came on. Don’t overreact. [5:20] The numbers come from our words, deeds, and our ability to work through other people. Leaders get people to do things willingly that they would not do otherwise. How we lead depends on our values. Ask what is the most important thing, the second-most important, the third-most important, and so forth. We need to prioritize what we value and translate those values into behaviors we can observe. [6:47] If we say we value integrity, what is the observable behavior that comes from that value? Is hitting the number that top priority, or are people a priority? [7:42] It doesn’t matter what you say, it matters what you do. Your culture is a product of your daily decisions and how you treat people. [8:53] Jim recalls an experience from his first college internship at Glenview Tool Company. The owner, Mike Sciortino told him that a security device can’t prevent all theft but it can help keep honest people honest. Jim says, as leaders, let’s help people do the right thing. Let’s encourage them. [11:04] Jan shares a recent airline experience where “the system” wouldn’t allow the airline to fix a problem. The system should be for people! [11:40] Jan explains the six cardinal virtues: Wisdom, Courage, Humanity, Justice, Temperance, and Transcendence. Wisdom is built upon curiosity. We have to reward curiosity if we want people to be able to identify problems. Daily, use the statement, “That’s a great question!” Reward questions! It’s important to catch people doing right. [17:15] Take the focus of questions away from yourself and put it on the other person. Instead of saying, “I don’t understand this, can you explain it to me?” say, “That’s fascinating. Help me understand why you’re going about it that way.” [18:12] Courage gets a lot of talk these days. The best business translation of courage is honesty. Sometimes we say authentic. Jan coached a client who had been honest to their boss, but their boss just got quiet, as though wounded. If we want the truth, we need to hear it. Jim cites Choosing Courage, by Jim Detert. Courage is related to timing. Sometimes, wait for the right moment instead of blurting it out. [21:45] Jan’s client recently told him that part of being courageous is not being complicit. Don’t keep quiet about stuff. [22:39] Employees always have three choices about their workplace: Suck it up and deal with a toxic culture, try to change it, or leave. What do you stand for? What are you willing to compromise on, or not? It’s not like there’s much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. You don’t have to be complicit in a toxic culture or abusive leadership. [24:40] Humanity is simple kindness or the Golden Rule. This can be hard because there’s a lot of competition. There’s tunnel vision. Some niceties go by the wayside. But research shows that human kindness works. Humans respond best to positive reinforcement. Humanity is a decision that doesn’t depend on anyone else. Just be kind, even if people are mean to you. It’s doing the right thing. [28:01] Jan tells of going from being a sergeant to being an officer. He was told, “You don’t have to speak like the soldiers; you can be above that.” It’s a matter of respect. If you try to fit in by speaking the cool lingo, it is inauthentic. [28:58] Justice is fairness. Organizations are asking people to be fair to one another. But, in personalized leadership, you can’t treat everybody the same, because of their individuality and the work function they have. People want one-on-one time with their leader. In all that, we have to be sure we’re being perceived as being fair. Encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable. [33:19] Temperance is self-discipline. Without self-discipline and sacrifice, we can’t tackle big goals. John Wooden taught players how to put on socks and shoes so they wouldn’t get blisters. In business, we are missing so many fundamentals, such as starting and ending meetings on time and being predictable. [35:00] Jim says discipline is respect. Showing up to meetings on time is respectful of everybody’s time. Discipline with personal and business goals is respect for how important those goals are. If you don’t have self-discipline, you probably don’t have self-respect. Discipline thrives when you have respect. If you don’t have self-respect, discipline falters. [36:29] Transcendence is spirituality. In work, Jan sees it as being gracious and operating with gratitude. Jim reminds us that in the grand scheme of things, our role is small. How do you relate to the universe and other people and creatures? Barry Schwartz, in Practical Wisdom, told of janitors in a cancer care unit operating with graciousness because the patients were in great need and having a hard time. [38:19] The transcendent behavior of the janitors improved the condition of the patients, who were at their most humiliating moments. The janitors were looking at the bigger picture than cleaning up a mess. In high-performing organizations, people operate with that level of transcendence. People who win the Medal of Honor are operating with transcendence, also known as Mission, Vision, and Values. [39:20] Companies are not started for the sake of creating a great culture. A company starts because there is a market need, and they think they can help people. More people get involved and then they think about having a good company, which means having a good culture. People are tribal. The cardinal virtues are the rules to get along with our tribe and be of service to other humans in other tribes. [40:50] Things feel out of hand because we’ve gotten so far from the fundamentals. As you look at planning, go back and say, “Are we making this too complicated?” [42:24] Closing quote: Remember, “Courage is the most important of all the virtues because without courage you can’t practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.” — Maya Angelou   Quotable Quotes “As [Richie Norton] reminded us, ‘Life is short’ isn’t a cliché, it’s true. and ‘Don’t defer your dreams.’ Boy, that show resonated!” — Jan “We had some sectors that were growing at 25% and now they’re only going to grow at 9%, so it feels like the airbags just came on because we’re slowing down from 25 to 9. … The slowdown is huge but it’s still a rate of growth. … Let’s not overreact.” — Jim “[As a leader,] you’re basically saying, ‘Let’s change the trajectory, let’s improve performance, let’s do something different that you wouldn’t have done if I didn’t intercede.’” — Jan “Your culture isn’t what you want it to be. Your culture is a product of the decisions you make on a daily basis. … Do [you] respect people? Do [you] listen to them when they have a concern?” — Jim “If people aren’t asking questions around you, you might be the emperor without clothes.” — Jim “There is a way to ask a question so that it will never be perceived as stupid. … [Instead of ‘I don’t understand this,’ say], ‘That’s really fascinating. What made you think to do it that way?’ or ‘Help me understand why you’re going about it that way.’” — Jim “We see what’s going on in big tech right now; it’s all fear. It’s awful. People are afraid to speak up.” — Jan “It’s not like there’s much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. They’re different. There might be a place where the values line up better with what you’re all about. You don’t have to be complicit in a toxic culture.” — Jan “Humanity is a decision that doesn’t depend on anyone else. If you’re going to be kind, just be kind, even if people are mean to you.” — Jim “As leaders, we’ve got to encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable.” — Jan “We know this: Without a certain amount of self-discipline and sacrifice, you can’t tackle big goals and defer short-term pleasures. It’s really hard. And any organization has really long-term goals.” — Jan “No company that I know of was started to create a great culture. … Every company starts because there’s a market need and they think they can help other human beings. And then they get more people involved. And then they say, … ``We should have a good company!” — Jan “We are tribal. To me, these cardinal virtues are the rules for us to behave in a certain way to get along with our tribe and to deliver services, offerings, and products to other humans in other tribes. That’s what we’re doing.” — Jan “Everything feels like it’s out of hand because we’ve gotten so far from the fundamentals.” — Jan   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: Interact with Jan and Jim on , , , and

Jan Rutherford and Jim Vaselopulos, the hosts of The Leadership Podcast, explore core values based on the six cardinal virtues. Follow the discussion in this important episode to be reminded how the cardinal virtues apply in life and at work, and how you and your organization can move forward by going back to the fundamentals of leadership.   Key Takeaways [1:25] Jan and Jim have both received a lot of very positive texts about Episode 332, featuring Richie Norton, who talked about the brevity of life. Jan sees that people are planning frantically for next year. [3:05] Leaders are making sure they don’t get caught up in emotions but look at the facts. Jim refers to past guest Alan Beaulieu and ITR Economics. The slowdown we’re feeling is a slowdown in the rate of growth, not a recession. Slowing from 25% growth to 9% growth feels like the airbags just came on. Don’t overreact. [5:20] The numbers come from our words, deeds, and our ability to work through other people. Leaders get people to do things willingly that they would not do otherwise. How we lead depends on our values. Ask what is the most important thing, the second-most important, the third-most important, and so forth. We need to prioritize what we value and translate those values into behaviors we can observe. [6:47] If we say we value integrity, what is the observable behavior that comes from that value? Is hitting the number that top priority, or are people a priority? [7:42] It doesn’t matter what you say, it matters what you do. Your culture is a product of your daily decisions and how you treat people. [8:53] Jim recalls an experience from his first college internship at Glenview Tool Company. The owner, Mike Sciortino told him that a security device can’t prevent all theft but it can help keep honest people honest. Jim says, as leaders, let’s help people do the right thing. Let’s encourage them. [11:04] Jan shares a recent airline experience where “the system” wouldn’t allow the airline to fix a problem. The system should be for people! [11:40] Jan explains the six cardinal virtues: Wisdom, Courage, Humanity, Justice, Temperance, and Transcendence. Wisdom is built upon curiosity. We have to reward curiosity if we want people to be able to identify problems. Daily, use the statement, “That’s a great question!” Reward questions! It’s important to catch people doing right. [17:15] Take the focus of questions away from yourself and put it on the other person. Instead of saying, “I don’t understand this, can you explain it to me?” say, “That’s fascinating. Help me understand why you’re going about it that way.” [18:12] Courage gets a lot of talk these days. The best business translation of courage is honesty. Sometimes we say authentic. Jan coached a client who had been honest to their boss, but their boss just got quiet, as though wounded. If we want the truth, we need to hear it. Jim cites Choosing Courage, by Jim Detert. Courage is related to timing. Sometimes, wait for the right moment instead of blurting it out. [21:45] Jan’s client recently told him that part of being courageous is not being complicit. Don’t keep quiet about stuff. [22:39] Employees always have three choices about their workplace: Suck it up and deal with a toxic culture, try to change it, or leave. What do you stand for? What are you willing to compromise on, or not? It’s not like there’s much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. You don’t have to be complicit in a toxic culture or abusive leadership. [24:40] Humanity is simple kindness or the Golden Rule. This can be hard because there’s a lot of competition. There’s tunnel vision. Some niceties go by the wayside. But research shows that human kindness works. Humans respond best to positive reinforcement. Humanity is a decision that doesn’t depend on anyone else. Just be kind, even if people are mean to you. It’s doing the right thing. [28:01] Jan tells of going from being a sergeant to being an officer. He was told, “You don’t have to speak like the soldiers; you can be above that.” It’s a matter of respect. If you try to fit in by speaking the cool lingo, it is inauthentic. [28:58] Justice is fairness. Organizations are asking people to be fair to one another. But, in personalized leadership, you can’t treat everybody the same, because of their individuality and the work function they have. People want one-on-one time with their leader. In all that, we have to be sure we’re being perceived as being fair. Encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable. [33:19] Temperance is self-discipline. Without self-discipline and sacrifice, we can’t tackle big goals. John Wooden taught players how to put on socks and shoes so they wouldn’t get blisters. In business, we are missing so many fundamentals, such as starting and ending meetings on time and being predictable. [35:00] Jim says discipline is respect. Showing up to meetings on time is respectful for everybody’s time. Discipline with personal and business goals is respect for how important those goals are. If you don’t have self-discipline, you probably don’t have self-respect. Discipline thrives when you have respect. If you don’t have self-respect, discipline falters. [36:29] Transcendence is spirituality. In work, Jan sees it as being gracious and operating with gratitude. Jim reminds us that in the grand scheme of things, our role is small. How do you relate to the universe and other people and creatures? Barry Schwartz, in Practical Wisdom, told of janitors in a cancer care unit operating with graciousness because the patients were in great need and having a hard time. [38:19] The transcendent behavior of the janitors improved the condition of the patients, who were at their most humiliating moments. The janitors were looking at the bigger picture than cleaning up a mess. In high-performing organizations, people operate with that level of transcendence. People who win the Medal of Honor are operating with transcendence, also known as Mission, Vision, and Values. [39:20] Companies are not started for the sake of creating a great culture. A company starts because there is a market need, and they think they can help people. More people get involved and then they think about having a good company, which means having a good culture. People are tribal. The cardinal virtues are the rules to get along with our tribe and be of service to other humans in other tribes. [40:50] Things feel out of hand because we’ve gotten so far from the fundamentals. As you look at planning, go back and say, “Are we making this too complicated?” [42:24] Closing quote: Remember, “Courage is the most important of all the virtues, because without courage you can’t practice any other virtue consistently. You can practice any virtue erratically, but nothing consistently without courage.” — Maya Angelou   Quotable Quotes “As [Richie Norton] reminded us, ‘Life is short’ isn’t a cliché, it’s true. and ‘Don’t defer your dreams.’ Boy, that show resonated!” — Jan “We had some sectors that were growing at 25% and now they’re only going to grow at 9%, so it feels like the airbags just came on because we’re slowing down from 25 to 9. … The slowdown is huge but it’s still a rate of growth. … Let’s not overreact.” — Jim “[As a leader,] you’re basically saying, ‘Let’s change the trajectory, let’s improve performance, let’s do something different that you wouldn’t have done if I didn’t intercede.’” — Jan “Your culture isn’t what you want it to be. Your culture is a product of the decisions you make on a daily basis. … Do [you] respect people? Do [you] listen to them when they have a concern?” — Jim “If people aren’t asking questions around you, you might be the emperor without clothes.” — Jim “There is a way to ask a question so that it will never be perceived as stupid. … [Instead of ‘I don’t understand this,’ say], ‘That’s really fascinating. What made you think to do it that way?’ or ‘Help me understand why you’re going about it that way.’” — Jim “We see what’s going on in big tech right now; it’s all fear. It’s awful. People are afraid to speak up.” — Jan “It’s not like there’s much greener grass in different places, but there is different grass in all the organizations. They’re different. There might be a place where the values line up better with what you’re all about. You don’t have to be complicit in a toxic culture.” — Jan “Humanity is a decision that doesn’t depend on anyone else. If you’re going to be kind, just be kind, if people are mean to you.” — Jim “As leaders, we’ve got to encourage others in the organization to be fair and equitable.” — Jan “We know this: Without a certain amount of self-discipline and sacrifice, you can’t tackle big goals and defer short-term pleasures. It’s really hard. And any organization has really long-term goals.” — Jan “No company that I know of was started to create a great culture. … Every company starts because there’s a market need and they think they can help other human beings. And then they get more people involved. And then they say, … ``We should have a good company!” — Jan “We are tribal. To me, these cardinal virtues are the rules for us to behave in a certain way to get along with our tribe and to deliver services, offerings, and products to other humans in other tribes. That’s what we’re doing.” — Jan “Everything feels like it’s out of hand because we’ve gotten so far from the fundamentals.” — Jan   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: Interact with Jan and Jim on , , , and The Marshmallow Test

Richie Norton is the author of “Anti-Time Management,” and a Marshall Goldsmith 100 Coach. He is the CEO of Prouduct, an INC. 5000 company.  In this episode, Richie opens up about tragedies that changed the way he lives, works, and spends time with his family. Richie describes work-life flexibility in three parts: Ability, Availability, and Autonomy. His message: Don’t defer your dreams.       Key Takeaways [2:15] Richie Norton walks his dog on the beach every day. He travels the world and works from his phone. [2:29] The name of his company, Prouduct, means products you’re proud of. At any given time, they make over 100 products. Besides being an entrepreneur, Richie coaches and consults. He is happily married and has seven children including three fosters. His youngest passed away but would have just turned 13. [3:50] Years ago, Richie was in Nashville working with the Zig Ziglar team on a project. He got a text from the State of Hawaii that a missile was about to hit his house on Oahu. Then a text that said it was not a test. He called home and finally, his son answered the phone crying, “I love you, Dad.” He thought these were his last moments. It was all a mistake. It shook Richie into thinking about other events. [5:02] Richie’s brother-in-law, Gavin, his wife’s only brother, had been living with their family. He passed away in his sleep at age 21. Life is short. They started living their lives differently and thinking about time differently. Richie’s fourth son, Gavin, named after his uncle, was born. He had a cough. Doctors said he was fine, but it turned out he had pertussis. In the hospital, he slipped away in his mother’s arms. [6:25] In thinking of these two tragedies, Richie came up with Gavin’s Law: “Live to Start, Start to Live.” Take the ideas that press on your mind, and start living them. Too many people push ideas aside claiming they don’t have the education, time, or money to make them happen. [7:11] Richie worked with Stephen M.R. Covey while in his twenties, training executives. Richie thought he was too young for the job but it wasn’t about his experience, it was about continuous improvement and learning. [8:05] Richie speaks of some life events. His foster children returned to their biological mother. His wife had a stroke and lost her memory. The business deal that took him to Hawaii fell through. His son got hit crossing the road and was badly injured. He is OK now. His wife got her memory back. Richie was shouldering a lot when he changed his life’s trajectory by putting meaning behind these events. [9:52] With meaning, Richie was able to keep his faith and continue moving forward. His meaning was in asking himself, “How can I live better, not bitter?” When you get stuck on what happened, ask yourself how to assign positive meaning. Approach your work from the dream, not toward the dream. [10:57] Covey would say, begin with the end in mind. He didn’t say, to begin with, the means in mind. You can change goals, habits, and strengths, which are all just means to an end. The approach of working from the dream and not endlessly toward it is powerful. You can collapse time. It’s a different way of thinking, living, and working. It’s anti-time management. [12:54] Richie learned that grief is a tunnel, not a cave. Things happen that impact us and the way we see where we’re going and what we have to look forward to. Richie’s purpose is his family. He wants to create the ability to have availability. Purpose is having character, creating relationships of trust, and being available for his family, and those for whom he needs to be available when they need him most. [15:48] Richie describes work-life flexibility in three parts: ability, availability, and agility or autonomy. When you look at the world through autonomy, availability, and ability, you can see how free you are to make the choices that you do, including the consequences. [18:28] You have to value your time, not time your values. You can’t sacrifice what you love for success. When you sacrifice what you love for success, you get neither. Infuse your work with your values or you will get a hollow life with hollow hopes. You can have money and meaning. You’ve got to bake it in from the start. [21:17] The second industrial revolution in the late 1800s came from the concept of time-motion studies. It is now known as Taylorism or time management. It was designed to control and master every aspect of workers. It takes and squeezes everything out of the worker for as long as possible to the point of breaking. Time management is about who controls how you use your time. [22:32] Anti-Time Management gives you control over your time. In Time Management, others tell you what to do. In Anti-Time Management, you decide. There is a balance between the two approaches. A full calendar is an empty life. An empty calendar means you’re a leader; it’s been handled. [25:18] The recent pandemic was the first time in history that everyone was experiencing the same thing at the same time. Technology advanced. Companies and talent started learning what was possible. People started seeing the world in a new way. People started distrusting companies and news outlets more than ever before. Of course, the corporations want everyone to come back in! [26:38] Can productivity increase working from home? It depends on the situation. [26:47] The leadership quality of the future that will be the most important leadership quality is discernment. When you have these gaps in data and interpretation, we need leaders and talent who can use discernment to fill them in to decide the direction we’re going to go. [27:50] Never have the switching costs of moving from one company to another been lower. People change jobs every 4.6 years. The company that supports talent in working for their role in the home is going to be the winner. [29:02] As soon as flexibility becomes a corporate benefit to the employee, it’s not a benefit to the employee anymore, it’s a longer leash. [29:56] Discernment comes in asking better questions for better answers. Problems are multi-dimensional. With discernment, you can make decisions that no one else saw. Ask open-ended questions. You can develop discernment. Richie has great mentors and surrounds himself with good people that think differently. It helps to listen to great podcasts like The Leadership Podcast. [33:23] If a chick doesn’t break out of its egg, it dies. Fear, negative pride, and procrastination are like an eggshell that we must break through to be our authentic selves. If you had no fear, pride, or procrastination, what would you be capable of? How would you feel? What would you do? You would be you. We go around trying to avoid past traumas through our decisions. [36:10] Richie sees that people have fear at work. In corporations, there is 99% work signaling and 1% working. Jan cites Joel Peterson, former Chairman of JetBlue: “24 hours is more than enough time per day.” Richie talks about having a purpose or reason bigger than your fear. At the end of the day, you get what you want, tragedies aside. You’ve got to be willing to do the work. [40:17] Richie does not like the retirement mentality. It has destroyed generations of people. He wants people to talk about it, as he does in Anti-Time Management. The retirement mentality is to put off what you want to do until you retire. You can do what you want now and find a way to responsibly support yourself your whole life. [42:06] Richie talks about the marshmallow test. The original study indicated that a child willing to wait 15 minutes for a larger reward rather than accepting a smaller reward now, would do better in life. But later studies showed that was not true. Richie compares the patient child to the obedient employee, willing to wait for rewards. Waiting is great for some things, but not for everything. [44:36] Your lifestyle is changed by how you get paid. The way you operate, the way you work, and the way you do things in order to earn, dictate your life. If you can work in a way where more gets done in less time, it will expand your ability to live, create, and be hyper-productive. Consider your purpose, priority, projects, and payments: If your payments can align with your purpose, you’re set. [45:59] Closing quote: Remember, “Time is the coin of your life. It is the only coin you have, and only you can determine how it will be spent. Be careful lest you let other people spend it for you.” — Carl Sandburg   Quotable Quotes “I don’t think people work for work’s sake; I think we work for something else, and so I love to help people create that something else and find work to support it.” “I held him for a second and handed him to my wife; she was in a rocking chair and I had my hand on his heart and we sang lullabies. He slipped away. There’s nothing like having a human being die in your arms. There’s just nothing like that.” “I came up with what I call Gavin’s Law, which is ‘Live to start, start to live.’”  “People say they have 20 years’ experience when in reality they only have one year’s experience, repeated 20 times. … Let’s go to work.” — Stephen M.R. Covey, per Richie Norton “A lot of times [people] get stuck on what happened. … Ask, … ‘How can I assign positive meaning to this?’ Because … if you can, then you can figure out your approach. When you approach something from the dream and not endlessly toward it, you work entirely differently.” “Goals, habits, and strengths have become means, that have become ends unto themselves. They’re just means to an end. You can change the goals, habits, and strengths.” “The way time tippers in Anti-Time Management treat time is the way Marie Kondo treats clothes and closet space. We look at it with, ‘What brings us joy? What doesn’t? What served us? What hasn’t?’”  “You have to value your time, not time your values.”  “I believe that the leadership quality of the future that will be the most important leadership quality is discernment. … When you have these gaps, we need leaders and talent who can use discernment to fill them in to decide the direction we’re going to go.” “There are more opportunities than ever. … People are saying to me, ‘How do we get the talent back?’ … Just hold on. … Never in the history of the world have the switching costs of working in one job or another been lower.” “If you want to be … the leader that brings in other leaders, … now we have an opportunity to show love, to be egoless, to look for talent where we are supporting them in the role that they’re working for … the role in the home; those are the companies that are going to win.” “Any fear that happens, if you don’t have a bigger purpose or a bigger reason, why would you do something about it? People are scared of losing their jobs and they stay.” “Change the way you get paid — change your life.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Warwick Fairfax is the Founder of Crucible Leadership, a philosophical and practical approach for turning business and personal failures into the fuel for living life on purpose, in service to others. In this interview, Warwick shares the wisdom gained from losing his 150 year-old family business worth two-billion-dollars. He talks about how he became a person of intention and reflection. He discusses how we need to delve into our values and beliefs and live in alignment with them. He shares why character means more than credentials. Listen in for the ultimate lesson on working through adversity and the importance of resilience.   Key Takeaways [1:51] Warwick is a big cricket fan. He looks forward to watching a big upcoming Australian cricket tournament on an obscure cable channel in the U.S. [3:24] Warwick grew up in Australia in his family’s 150-year-old media business. It felt like it was his duty to go into the company. He went to Oxford, as his father had done. He worked on Wall Street, then got his MBA at Harvard Business School. He was seen by his parents as the heir apparent. He could not choose not to go into it. [5:38] Warwick believed the company wasn’t being well-run. In his youthful idealism, he launched a $2.25 billion takeover in August 1987. Things went wrong from the start. Other family members sold out and didn’t believe in Warwick or his vision. The company had an unsustainable level of debt. Warwick tried everything to keep it going. In 1990 they filed for bankruptcy. The company was sold. [7:20] Warwick’s wife is American and the couple moved to America in the early ’90s; they have been here ever since. Warwick’s crucible was devastating. In Crucible Leadership, a crucible is defined as a devastating setback or failure that fundamentally transforms your life. It was excruciating. How could he have been so dumb with a Harvard MBA? Warwick was in a bad pit of despair. He was at rock bottom. [9:40] Warwick was 26 years old when he launched the takeover. Blue-chip merchant bankers advised him not to do it. So he found less reputable bankers who told him, sure they can do it. They just didn’t tell him that it wouldn’t be sustainable. Warwick ignored the good advice and listened to the bad advice. [12:38] Warwick credits his stability with his Christian faith which has always been the center of his life. His crucible brought him closer to his beliefs. Warwick believes God loves us all unconditionally. He doesn’t need our stuff or our successes; we’re not our rank or position, we’re valued as human beings, beautifully and wonderfully made. Warwick’s faith is a cornerstone. [13:32] Warwick’s wife loves him unconditionally. Losing a couple of billion did not change that. In the ’90s, Warwick and his wife started having children. Warwick found meaningful work, such as doing finance at a local aviation services company and business analysis. The love of his family strengthened him. As he says on the podcast, Beyond the Crucible®, you’re not defined by your worst day. [14:40] You have to dig deeply into your fundamental beliefs and values; are you going to be defined by your biggest mistake or this biggest thing that’s happened to you? When something bad happens to you, you can either be angry and bitter at others or yourself for years, or you can say, “This is awful; this is unconscionable; what I did was stupid; OK, but I have a choice how I move on from here, how I live.” [15:51] Warwick’s essential problem was that he was living somebody else’s life. You’ve got to live your life and do what you were called to do, regardless of what laudable professions your parents have followed. You love your parents, but you don’t need to do what they did. You’ve got to be you.  [16:52] Failure can be helpful if it leads you to examine yourself. Often, vision comes out of the ashes of your crucible. The key is you’ve got to live your own life. You can’t inherit a vision. You’ve got to own it. You’ve got to feel like it’s your vision. That’s at the core of leading with uncompromised authenticity. [19:57] When you grow up in wealth, the crucibles are different but they’re there. Warwick always felt extremely stressed by the sense of obligation to go into the family business. Growing up, if Warwick got in legal trouble, he knew it would be front-page news. He could not afford to fail and embarrass his family. Life won’t always be perfect. You don’t need to look for failure or crucibles. [21:57] Crucible Leadership surveyed around 5,000 people asking how many of them had experienced crucibles of life-changing circumstances over their lives. It was 71%. There’s a 70% chance that people you know have gone through crucibles. Be forewarned before the battle. Have a game plan. [23:23] Over the years, Warwick has asked executives what their values and beliefs are and to what degree they are living in alignment with their values and beliefs. If they are out of alignment, he asks, would they rather change their values and beliefs, or change how they live? They always want to get in alignment with their values and beliefs. Ask the question. People often miss that they are not aligned. [25:35] If coaches don’t ask their executive clients about values and beliefs, nobody may ask and the clients may never think about it. They may go through life asking “Why is life so difficult? Why am I having all these crucibles?” Well, it may be self-inflicted. Maybe living out of alignment with their values and beliefs is part of the reason. [26:23] Warwick offers “must-dos” to lead through a crisis. First, your team must feel heard. That doesn’t mean you do everything they say. Show empathy, appreciate their concern, and explain why you are going in a different direction. If they feel heard, they are OK with a different decision, as long as it is not a moral difference. Your team should know you care about them as people. [28:47] If you listen to a team, and you’ve never taken input from any of them in 10 years, just saying “I hear you,” is not going to fly. At some point, you’ve got to take some input from your team, or listening is artificial. You need to know your blind spots. If you’ve got bright people on your team, you’ve got to trust them. If they all agree on something else, there’s a good chance that they’re right. Be humble. [30:34] Ego stops us from doing things that every business book advises. Every Executive coach will say, “Trust your team.” Because of ego, we don’t do it, and it leads to business failure or suboptimal performance. [31:39] It’s not just about getting to know people but about caring. You can’t teach people to care. If you don’t feel that people are worthwhile and deserve to be cared for, Warwick advises you to step away; resign. Let some other man or woman step into your job who can do a better job. If you have people on your team who demonstrate they don’t care for others, let them go and do damage somewhere else. [35:20] Warwick states that hiring people that don’t care is bad for long-term company performance. If you don’t provide a caring, nurturing environment, you will not hire good people. It’s as hard to hire good people as it has been in the last hundred years. If you believe in your company’s long-term performance, you’ll hire people who care. [36:33] Warwick would rather hire someone who cares than someone with the highest academic credentials. Their team will stick with that leader who cares. Hire for character. It’s the right economic choice and business choice. It’s the right ethical and values choice. [38:44] Warwick reflects on what he as an executive coach might have told his 26-year-old self, but he says it wouldn’t have helped. He would not have been moved from his plan at 26. Sometimes things happen and you have to go through them to learn the lesson. [39:56] In general, with young people, Warwick would coach them to make sure they understand their values, ethics, and beliefs. He would ask how what they are doing serves their values, ethics, and beliefs. People following a calling in line with their values and beliefs don’t stop at roadblocks. If they need help, they ask for it. [40:45] Warwick will sometimes ask his team to reassure him before a presentation because he knows the material, but his emotions tell him he might fail. A strong, confident person is willing to admit their vulnerabilities and ask for help, at an appropriate level of sharing. It doesn't make you less of a leader, admitting you’re a little bit nervous. [42:33] When you go through a crucible, don’t waste it. Learn the lessons. Have After-Action Reports. Learn to do what fits your values, beliefs, and wiring better. [45:39] Warwick shares his views on business valuation. Executives often wrap their identity in what they do. They wonder if they sell low if that makes them worth less as a person. After they sell, at any price, what are they, since they are not Joe Business-owner? Don’t let your business identity stop you from making a rational business decision. [47:48] Don’t just have an exit strategy; have a life strategy after selling the business. There are many worthwhile options, such as heading a non-profit, donating your time, creating a new start-up, or becoming a mentor, advisor, or angel investor. Close one chapter and start another chapter. Know your why. You’ve sold your company, not your identity. [50:24] It’s hard not to see your identity wrapped up in what you do. It’s easy to say; it’s really hard. It’s normal to feel pain when you sell a business. Jan cites Clayton Christensen, “How will you measure your life?” [51:26] Closing quote: Remember, “If there is no struggle, there is no progress.” — Frederick Douglass   Quotable Quotes “It was my sacred duty to go into the family business because we didn’t just produce widgets, we produced something that was of service to the nation of Australia. … This sense of duty was so hard-wired in me, I could not not go into it.” — Warwick “I’m pretty good at giving grace to others; pretty bad at giving grace to myself. … I have a tendency to think if there's a problem in the world, it’s my fault. I tend not to blame others.”  “They said, ‘Warwick, the numbers don’t add up, don’t do it.’ Well, that wasn’t what I wanted to hear.”  “When you go through a crucible, it either draws you closer to your verities and beliefs or further away.” “We say this all the time; we have our own podcast, Beyond the Crucible®, ‘You’re not defined by your worst day.’”  “You don’t always have a choice about what happened to you but you can choose how you look at your life, moving forward. That’s the essence of beginning to get out of the pit of despair and beyond your crucible.”  “My dad was sort of the intellectual guy that would have been a better philosophy professor. He was not a business guy at all. I mean, John Fairfax, my great-great-grandfather was a business guy but those genes had long since faded by the time it got to me, fifth generation.”  “The key is you’ve got to live your own life. … It’s great to love your parents but you can’t inherit a vision. You’ve got to own it. You’ve got to feel like it’s your vision. So that’s probably at the core of leading with uncompromised authenticity.”  “Unless you ask the question, they don’t even realize they’re living out of alignment with their values and beliefs because they don’t know what [they are]. We, as coaches, can really help our clients by just asking those questions. If we don’t ask, nobody may ask.”  “Typically founders are not very good general managers. They’re good entrepreneurs but they’re just different skills, so be humble enough to trust your team. It sounds so simple and so easy but ego gets in the way and that’s the problem.” “Every executive coach will say, ‘Trust your team.’ This is not new, what I’m saying. But because of ego, people don’t do it. It’s so sad; frankly, it’s stupid. It will lead to business failure or suboptimal performance.”  “I believe that hiring people that don’t care is bad for profitability and bad for long-term performance of the company. Maybe not short-term earnings per share, but long-term, because people like to work for people who care.”  “Young people increasingly have choices and if you don’t provide a caring, nurturing environment, you won’t hire them. It’s as hard today to find good people as it’s ever been in the last maybe 100 years. … If you believe in … your company, hire people who care.”  “If you’re following a calling that you’re passionate about that’s in line with your values and beliefs when you hit those roadblocks, you won’t stop. And when you do hit them, … a brave man or woman asks for help.”  “You’re more than just your title. You’re more than just a nameplate on your door. If that’s who you think you are, then that’s very tragic because you’re set up for misery and a bit of a fall. So, there’s some soul work, in the broad sense of the word, that you’ve got to do.”    Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Lieutenant General Mark Schwartz retired from the U.S. Army after 33 years. A career Special Forces Officer, Mark served in a multitude of command and staff assignments, including the United States Security Coordinator of the Israel-Palestinian Authority. In this interview, Mark reveals the importance of having the right advocates in your corner. Mark shares his advice for young leaders, women leaders, and others on being intentional and deliberate with how they approach their careers.     Key Takeaways [3:10] Mark is pleased to be back in his home state of Colorado. Now that he is retired and has the opportunity to speak to civil society, he is focused on advocacy for women in leadership. [4:28] Strategic influence and influence at the local level come from having the right advocates in your corner. Mark talks about the effects that suspending diplomatic relations between the Trump administration and the Palestinian Authority had in 2019. President Abbas had lost his most important ally and his influence waned, while Netanyahu’s influence increased. [10:12] Mark learned from his time in Israel that everyone wants a leader who is ethically sound and has the character they want to emulate. It’s all about the people you have the privilege to represent and lead. If you’re not an example they’re proud of, people leave the organization and move on to find other leaders they want to work for and work with. [13:38] Politics has entered the business conversation. In the military, it is necessary to support the administration, even though the oath is to the U.S. Constitution, not to an administration. In the military, you can voice your opposition at every election. Mark recommends following thbusiness practice: use your voice at the ballot box, not at work, to avoid some real challenges in the workplace. [17:58] Loosely-bonded political alliances are essential. Mark illustrates that point with his first joint task at NATO leading the ground planning for a NATO mission expansion in Afghanistan. It was a very educational experience to learn the importance of inclusion. It applies also to businesses. Not everybody is going to get what they want but the voice of the collective body is powerful. [22:33] Empathy at the staff and HQ levels for your coalition partners is an important aspect of success. You are representing your nation’s interests, but you respect the caveats and interests of others. [26:18] In speaking of developing leadership, Mark describes an event along the Pakistani border that turned a situation from tactical to strategic quickly, for over six months. Mark was on mid-tour leave, but he called his commander to see if he was needed. He was told that someone he had helped develop had the situation in hand. The young operations officer managed a report to generals remarkably well. [29:27] Mark shares a model for advocacy for women in the military and business. The talent between men and women is similar. Merit is the most important factor. If you aren’t consciously creating opportunities for fair and equal competition for promotion or strategic-level leadership, you let some of your best folks go. Consider the propensity to serve. Keep the standards consistent. [33:51] People appreciate candid and honest feedback. All candidates are not equal. If someone is not qualified, you owe them that feedback to let them know why. Some preconceptions still exist. On one occasion, Mark explained to a female staff member that he was going to a well-qualified female executive officer to make an important statement to the command. [36:38]  When the Berlin wall came down in 1989, Mark thought that peace was almost here. There are still conflicts. Success against conflict comes through will and resolve, as Ukraine is showing the world. Mark talks about the Taliban taking over Afghanistan. As a nation, we need to understand the psyche of a country and determine what is achievable. [40:10] Mark discusses negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis, and why the Palestinians’ determination not to participate in any normalization dialog didn’t help them. Mark sees opportunities to work privately to create a better environment for the civil society of both Israelis and Palestinians. Mark offers suggestions of steps to take to get on track to reduce the levels of violence and tensions. [45:23] Mark’s advice for young businesspeople with leadership aspirations is to focus on doing the best you can on the job you have. Build your core competencies. After three to five years, make your desire to take on an entry-level leadership responsibility known to your next-level leadership. That could lead to getting a mentor or sponsor. Management should be on the lookout for bright women and men. [47:03] After you get your first leadership position, you will run into a lot of firsts. You will want a mentor or advocate because you don’t always go to your boss for help in dealing with things. [47:53] If you desire to be a leader and develop talent in your organization, you’ve got to identify early those individuals that have the potential to mentor you. The higher in the organization you are, the more important it is to be mentored. As you move up to mid-management, that is when most women stop rising in the organization. The C-Suite needs to watch for women with merit to mentor. [50:22] Mark is very grateful not only to have had the opportunity to serve as an American soldier but also to have had the support of the American people throughout his career. That support is highly appreciated by everybody who has served and who continues to serve. [52:37] Closing quote: “We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” — George Orwell   Quotable Quotes “If you don’t have the right advocates in your corner, it’s very hard to have any influence.” — Mark “It’s unfortunate when situations play out where the military is viewed as being politicized. As a senior leader in the military, it certainly disturbed me to see.” — Mark “If you’re truly doing your job in terms of talent and leader development, your responsibility is to advocate for those that you see potential in and create opportunities and provide advice, counsel, and sponsorship for those that deserve it.” — Mark “There’s no other way [besides DEI that] we’re going to balance equality across the workforce at every level.” — Mark “If you desire to be a leader and you desire to develop talent in your organization, you’ve got to identify early those individuals that have that potential. And as you get more senior, it becomes all the more important.” — Mark   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Hasard Lee is an F-35 pilot in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, and has flown 82 combat missions. He has the distinction of being the only fighter pilot to employ two different types of jets in combat on the same day. Hasard is a content creator with one of the largest defense channels on YouTube - with over 54 million views and a reach of 290 million people. Hasard has a book coming out in May 2023, The Art of Clear Thinking: A Stealth Fighter Pilot’s Timeless Rules for Making Tough Decisions. In this conversation, Hasard shares the rules for making tough decisions.     Key Takeaways [2:44] Hasard joined the Reserves in 2020. He still flies once in a while. Most of his time is devoted to writing his upcoming book. Hasard’s father was a physicist in the Department of Energy so they moved from Livermore, CA, to Los Alamos, NM, and Washington D.C. for his job. Hasard went to his first air show when he was five. He has pictures of himself in an F-15 with a helmet on. [3:59] Hasard got the flying bug when he was five. He memorized all the jets and was passionate about them. When he was 12, a friend of a friend of his father’s took him up in a Cessna 152 and Hasard got a little bit of yoke time. After that, he was hooked and he knew he wanted to fly in the Air Force. He started taking steps in high school to make it happen. [6:11] The happy place for fighter pilots is in the cockpit, flying. But developing systems for training fighter pilots on the F-35 is one of the best things Hasard has ever done. The F-35 is the most expensive weapons system in history and will probably fly into the 2070s. The training tech included simulators on laptops, VR goggles, and high-end simulators, all setting pilots on the right path for the next decades. [9:03] Joining pilots of different jets into one program is like a merger. And most mergers fail! Hasard contrasts the competencies of A-10 pilots for close air support for troops on the ground with the F-16 pilots that do much of what the F-35 pilots do, and the F-22 and F-15C pilots. Part of Hasard’s job was to create the syllabus, building from the lowest common denominator of what the pilots knew. [11:54] Hasard planned his book to be entertaining and to incorporate some of the principles he learned as a fighter pilot. Most chapters have a story from Hasard’s time flying and a story from history or the business world. He breaks it down through ACE: Assess, Choose, and Execute. That’s how fighter pilots make decisions. It’s developed from John Boyd’s OODA loop: Observe, Orient, Decide, Act. [12:44] Hasard explains assessing and prioritizing the information that comes before you using laws of power: exponential growth, diminishing returns, and knees in the curve; how to make decisions based on expected values; and execution. The number one thing is being prepared. Start with visualization, or “chair flying” from the beginning to the end in your mind, and plan how to handle contingencies. [18:07] How do you learn to evaluate the odds? With debriefs. A pilot will go fly for an hour and then debrief that flight for two to six hours and pick through everything that has gone right and wrong to sharpen their mental model and make it more in line with reality. Check your ego at the door. Call everything out. [19:55] This needs to be done better in the civilian world. Spend time with your team and write down lessons learned after every project in some sort of document that everybody can reference. After every flight, Hasard writes down in a little notebook three things he could have done better. Then, the next time he has a similar flight, he reads those notes to prepare. Leaders: are you doing this enough? [22:43] We’re all leaders. When it comes down to being a good leader, you need four things: Competence in your job and a level of competence in jobs that report to you, Caring, Conviction in the vision of what you do, and in the boundaries you will not cross, and Clarity for solving problems. With these four characteristics, you can get a team to move quickly in a certain direction. [25:21] Everything is predicated on how well you sleep. You perform better and make better decisions. It’s hard for fighter pilots to get enough sleep because they fly at all hours. A noise machine in the bedroom helps. Sleep is an exponential benefit to what you do. It will help every aspect of your life from your relationships to how well you see the world to solve problems. At least eight hours is optimal. [28:25] Self-care, such as nutrition, sleep, hydration, physical therapy, and psychology are being emphasized now in pilot training. The evidence is getting out there. It just needs to be a priority. Generation Z is prepared for it by not smoking. [31:30] Being a fighter pilot is not a one v. one cage match or Top Gun with four aircraft. Pilots work with hundreds of aircraft operating together. They deal with the space domain, the cyberspace domain, people on the ground, and aircraft ISR (intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance). It’s a force package of 100-plus assets working to create the best team possible. And the enemy is just as smart. [33:06] Advice for younger people who want to be fighter pilots: You don’t need to have perfect vision anymore! You can have Lasik or fly with contact lenses or glasses. If you want to be a fighter pilot, apply! [33:44] Hasard has noticed that in the military, everyone has similar values, along a range. The business world is more of an open ocean and you have to be discerning to figure out where a person is coming from and their intentions, and how well they execute. When you hire someone, they haven’t been through OCS or the Academy and pilot training. They don’t think like the military. Hiring is a challenge. [36:35] Hasard has a “Never Again story.” When he was a lieutenant learning to fly an F-16 he was doing high-aspect BFM with a colonel with 25 years of experience. Hasard wanted to impress the colonel. He pulled up to vertical at 245 knots — six knots too slow! He fell out of control. He was able to get the jet under control at 2,000 feet. He learned small changes in input can make very large changes in output. [42:06] Closing quote: Remember, “Clarity affords focus.” — Thomas Leonard   Quotable Quotes “There are three important power laws you have to know: Exponential Growth, … Diminishing Return, … and Knees in the Curve.” — Hasard “If you can slow down to less than about 250 knots [before ejecting], you drastically increase your chance of survival because speed behaves exponentially.” — Hasard “As soon as you put on your helmet, you lose 20 I.Q. points. And what that means is you don’t rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your preparation. … You have to be prepared … in a training environment even more difficult than combat.” — Hasard “If I could talk about all the benefits of sleep without saying it was sleep and just saying it was a pill, I think I’d probably be a billionaire. Because everything is predicated on how well you sleep. You perform better …  you make better decisions.” — Hasard “[Falling in an out-of-control jet] was a big eye-opening story for me that small changes in input can have exponentially large changes in the output.” — Hasard   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: The Art of Clear Thinking: A Stealth Fighter Pilot’s Timeless Rules for Making Tough Decisions (Coming in May 2023)

Whitney Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of Disruption Advisors, a talent development company. Whitney is a globally-recognized thought leader. author, keynote speaker, executive coach, consultant, and a popular LinkedIn Learning instructor. In this conversation, Whitney discusses how musicality has lessons for the business world, and the wide applications of the S-Curve.   Key Takeaways [2:35] At her daughter’s prompting during the pandemic, Whitney and her family started watching Korean dramas. The family became obsessed with them. Whitney now studies Korean for two minutes a day on Duolingo. Whitney describes the characteristics of Korean dramas. [5:22] Whitney majored in music, studying classical piano and jazz. Because of her musical background, when she structures a keynote, a book, or a podcast, she looks for musicality and a musical structure to it. Musical structure and musicality inform the work she does. Also, as an experienced accompanist, she knows how to be second, allowing her to be a good interviewer, and as a coach, to listen well. [7:04] Brett Mitchell, the former conductor of the Colorado Symphony, said that music is what happens between the notes. Whitney discusses pauses relating to leadership and cites Clayton Christiansen, saying that partway through his career, Clayton Christiansen started a practice of praying before teaching a class. Once he started that practice, he started to have a significant impact on his students. [8:42] Whitney suggests that before you speak, have a meeting, or a coaching session, you pause and think about the person you’re about to speak to, and how to convey to the person that they matter to you, that is an element of leadership. [10:33] Wayne Muller, author of Sabbath, pointed out the pauses in Martin Luther King’s exclamation, “Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!” [11:41] Gino Wickman, in The EOS Life, recommends entrepreneurs take sabbaticals. One of Jim’s clients just took a sabbatical and reported that stepping back and taking a break allowed them to reflect and then grow. [12:20] Whitney has a LinkedIn Learning class, Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders, and a book, Smart Growth. Whitney’s view is that we are wired to grow. Virtuous growth is growing in such a way that everyone around you grows as well. She believes that human growth is unbounded. [13:23] Sociologist Everett Rogers applied the S-Curve to the study of how quickly innovation is adopted. Working with Clayton Christiansen, Whitney realized she could apply the S-Curve to individual change and growth. Growth comes in three stages: slow (launch), fast (sweet spot), and slow (master place). Every time you start a new role or a new job, you go through the curve. This is covered in Smart Growth. [14:45] Whitney’s LinkedIn course focuses on how to create the conditions where people around you can grow, with the resources they need, and how they can feel connected to what they’re doing and the people they’re working with. Whitney also talks about building resilience and nurturing people. If you can do all those things, you’re creating conditions wherein the people around you can grow. [16:59] Whitney makes the underlying assumption that if you will grow yourself then, by the contagion effect, the people around you will grow. Then, by default, your business will grow. [17:49] You can manage your organization as a portfolio of curves. The people at the curve’s launch point will need the most support. They will also have a fresh perspective, opening the door to innovation. You want about 20% of the people in your organization to be new, 60% to be in the sweet spot, and 20% in master, ready for a new challenge. This is a good distribution for innovation. [20:10] De-prioritize the things you do really well that somebody else could do. Whitney gives an example from a client. If you stop doing the things you should delegate to others, you will have time to do the things only you can do, and you get out of the way for them to work on the steep part of the S-Curve. [23:06] Every organization needs to have, as part of their vision, growing human beings and helping them reach their potential. The vision starts with the founders, and as people join the organization, they begin to co-create the vision with the founders. Everyone helps each other grow. In the most fluid, powerful organizations, everyone contributes to the creation of the vision. [26:56] Whitney addresses growth pre-pandemic, in-pandemic, and post-pandemic. A lot of adaptation and resilience have been required. When people are under stress, they go to default stress behaviors. You need to make sure people work together and not against each other. People want to grow but are not always sure how to do it. This goes back to Whitney’s course, Grow Yourself, Grow Your Leaders. [28:39] Whitney asks Jan and Jim for their thoughts on getting people to work together under stress. Jim states that when people are stressed they need time and space to solve their problems. People are pausing to figure out how to work together. People need time and space to get up to game speed. Executives are not paid to be busy. Pausing is a good way to grow by asking yourself tough questions. [31:35] Whitney has an assessment that she administers to clients. It includes seven accelerants of growth. The one that ranks the lowest is frequently “Step back to grow.” People are not taking time to pause and reflect. Whitney quotes Tiffany Shlain who asks, “What if we thought of ‘rest’ as technology because the promise of technology is to make you more productive?” [34:17] Egon Zehnder surveyed 1,000 executives whether they strongly agreed that to transform your organization you need to transform yourself. Before the pandemic, 18% of executives agreed. After the pandemic, 805 of the executives agreed. The only way you have the moral authority to ask people to change is if you, yourself, are changing. The fundamental unit of change is the individual at every level. [37:52] Whitney lists some people that inspire her, and why: Rashika Tolshan, who wrote about the Queen of England passing away, Brené Brown, Musician Jacob Collier, author Richie Norton, and NFL QB Steve Young. Each of them inspired Whitney with their visions of growth. [41:35] When Whitney was making her list of influential people, her default was to go to all men. She had to make sure she included some women. She had to be very mindful and deliberate to determine who is actually influencing her and she wanted a diversity of perspectives. Jim highlights the leadership lesson of intentionality. [42:49] Whitney’s audience homework: On the topic of pausing and resting, listen to these two episodes of Whitney’s Step Back to Grow podcast: Episode 139 with filmmaker Tiffany Schlain and Episode 180. Don’t avoid taking a pause to rest. [43:57] Closing quote: Remember, “It’s all to do with the training: you can do a lot if you’re properly trained.” — Queen Elizabeth II   Quotable Quotes “Because of being a musician, I think of things in a musical sort of way. When I’m structuring a keynote; … a book; … a podcast, there’s always a sense of, ‘Is there a musicality to it; is there a musical structure to it?’” — Whitney “I wrote a piece about the importance of taking a break, that you needed to rest because the ability to rest was going to allow you to recharge so that you could then move forward.” — Whitney “For me, growth is our default setting. We’re wired to grow.” — Whitney “Every time we start something new, we’re on a new S-Curve. There are three stages. There’s the launch point that feels slow, there’s the sweet spot, … where growth is fast, … and … the master place, where growth is … slow.” — Whitney “People who are successful are intentional. It doesn’t just fall in your lap. … Successful people are intentional people and [a high] level intentionality is something to be admired and something for people listening to this podcast to take away.” — Jim   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: Tiffany