The Leadership Podcast

Jim and Jan discuss the importance of compassion and courage in having difficult conversations. They emphasize the need for empathy, mutual solutions, and bi-directional dialogue. Jim and Jan also provide tips for creating a positive environment for such discussions, including clear expectations, empathy, and core values. They highlight the impact of small actions and encourage listeners not to be neutral in situations of injustice. https://bit.ly/TLP-362 Key Takeaways [02:18] Jim and Jan delve into the significance of having the courage to engage in difficult conversations. They also touch on the fear that comes with these conversations and how it can be a warning sign to address. [09:47] Jim and Jan stress the need for empathy and finding mutual solutions in these conversations instead of just pointing out problems. They also acknowledge that difficult conversations are a two-way street and require forgiveness and bi-directional dialogue to be effective. They highlight the importance of approaching tough conversations with respect, understanding, validation, active problem-solving, and follow-up. [17:33] They discuss the challenges of having difficult conversations in organizations and offer tips on how to create a more positive environment for them. This includes setting clear expectations, using empathy and questions to facilitate collaboration, and focusing on core values like kindness, honesty, fairness, discipline, curiosity, and gratitude. [23:18] The importance of running effective meetings is also discussed as a key factor in reducing the burden of excessive meetings while increasing productivity and engagement. They advise to treat people with respect and seek meaningful connections through shared values and purpose when engaging in communicating. [28:37] Jim and Jan also give three things that you would have to remember when it comes to these tough and difficult conversations. Also, some closing thoughts for Jim and Jan about having a difficult conversation. [35:31] Closing quote: Remember, if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality. — Desmond Tutu Quotable Quotes "If you care enough, you'll have the courage. If you don't care, the fear will override." "Fear is such a strong signal to our logical brain." "I just always try to put myself in the other person's shoes. Just say, like, hey, let me just play this out. If I were to receive this message, how do I think I'd react?" "Tough conversations can be challenging, but approaching them with empathy or spec and a focus on finding solutions can greatly improve the outcome and foster positive relationships." "We have to take responsibility for it being misinterpreted and ensure that our intentions come across in our words and deeds." "Difficult conversations are not one way, they're a two-way street." "We can create a positive environment where difficult conversations aren't difficult." "Let's not react, but let's respond with thought." "When we let our emotions and reactions govern how we hear and address things, it doesn't serve us well." "Difficult conversations can occur in meetings, and collaboration is important." "What's not being said is as important as what is being said." "Expectation setting for people is a difficult conversation." "Put yourself in the other person's shoes and have it be a process that you're collaborating on something rather than telling." "My three would be similar: respect, use questions to help that person self-discover, and use questions to brainstorm on possible solutions together." "The better we get at asking really good questions I think that's the road to righteousness." "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." - Desmond Tutu Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com TLP 309: This Author Has Written More About Meetings Than Anyone TLP124: How to Make Difficult Conversations… Easier "5 Strategies to infuse D&I into Your Organization," HBR

Col. Terry Virts (ret.) served as a U.S. Air Force test fighter pilot, is a NASA veteran of two spaceflights and a graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and Harvard Business School. In 2019 he directed his first film, One More Orbit. His second book, How to Astronaut, continues to amass excellent reviews. He is currently involved in several film and television projects, serves on corporate boards, consults to the entertainment industry, writes and promotes public policy.​ He is a celebrated thought leader, speaker and author whose ​seven months in space included: piloting the Space Shuttle; commanding the International Space Station; three spacewalks; and performing scientific experiments, while working closely with multiple international partners. Virts worked with Russian Space Agency cosmonauts during some of the most stressful U.S.-Russian relations since the Cold War.​ While in space he took more than 300,000 photos – more than on any other space mission. The images are an integral component of the National Geographic IMAX film ​A Beautiful Planet​, which Virts also shot and stars in. His first book for National Geographic, ​View From Above​, combines his best photography with stories about spaceflight alongside his perspectives about life on earth and our place in the cosmos.​ Terry shares the importance of feedback, cultural understanding, and fair treatment when leading diverse teams. He discusses topics such as debriefing, stress management, and skills-based training. Gain insights into balancing productivity and well-being, prioritizing tasks, and overcoming fears. Don't miss the valuable advice for handling emergencies. https://bit.ly/TLP-361 Key Takeaways [01:53] Terry talks about his experiences as an entrepreneur and the challenges of selling ideas in comparison to being a leader in the military. During his time commanding the International Space Station with an international crew, he learned that feedback is important and helps to resolve conflicts between team members from different cultural backgrounds. [05:36] He also emphasizes the importance of understanding where people are on the experience spectrum and treating everyone fairly regardless of their position or length of service. [11:23] Terry shares his experience working with people from different cultures and the importance of a culture that values accountability while not punishing mistakes. [16:58] He also emphasizes the value of debriefing and learning from mistakes to improve safety in industries like aviation. [23:19] Terry discusses how stress can impact performance during missions, highlighting the need for moderate stress levels to optimize productivity. Additionally, he talks about pre-mission training and team-building exercises such as National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS). [25:25] Terry touches on the importance of skills-based training, including medical skills necessary when someone falls ill during a mission. He talks about medical procedures in space and how to handle potential emergencies like appendicitis. [31:22] Terry also discusses leadership styles and ways to balance getting things done while also taking care of their team's well-being. [40:01] The discussion revolves around the concept of being a "lazy" commander. Terry refers to a quote by Steve Jobs, highlighting the idea of hiring smart people not to be told what to do, but to receive their guidance. The importance of prioritizing tasks, working smarter instead of harder, and being a little bit lazy as a leader were key takeaways from the conversation. [45:43] Terry shares the three steps to handle emergencies: maintain control, analyze the situation, and take appropriate action. He also gives advice for business leaders facing adversity and emphasizes the importance of prioritizing tasks in order to avoid making things worse. [47:33] Closing quote: Remember, the universe is under no obligation to make sense to you. — Neil deGrasse Tyson Quotable Quotes "If you're a leader, try and see things from other people's point of view, a skill we must have." "You kind of have to know where people are on the experience spectrum... People mature at different rates." "You need to be open to feedback also and not make it too awkward or strange." "If you've got a CYA culture in your organization, you have to look at how you're holding people accountable." "If people make mistakes... you can use people's mistakes in a positive way, that can be really good for your industry." "You figure out what you need, and then you train that need so that people know what they're doing." "If you can take your team and travel overseas, that's when you get to know people, you can hang out and do things outside of work, that's important." "There's a terminal velocity by which a team can come together." "You need to have some kind of moderate amount of stress to perform optimally." "Part of what we have to do as leaders is to get stuff done, and the best way to do that is through the commitment of people who are willing and engaged." "The best commanders are a little bit lazy." "I hire smart people so they tell me what to do." "When working in a big bureaucracy, choose one specific goal you want to accomplish and focus on achieving it." "Sometimes you just need to chill out and let things happen." "Be like water, find the path of least resistance." "Work smarter, not harder." "Don't crash into the ground. Do your analysis then take your action." "The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." - Neil deGrasse Tyson These are the books mentioned in our discussion with Terry Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Terry Virts Website| www.terryvirts.com Terry Virts on Twitter | @astroterry Terry Virts on Instagram | @astro_terry Terry Virts on LinkedIn |Terry Virts Terry Virts Facebook | www.facebook.com/astrovirts Terry Virts Book | View From Above: An Astronaut Photographs The World "5 Strategies to infuse D&I into Your Organization," HBR

Aidan Higgins is the author of "Lead from you: We need aware, authentic and emotionally intelligent leaders. Leading from their best selves." Aidan shares his insights on the importance of self-awareness, authenticity, and emotional intelligence in modern leadership. He discusses how childhood can shape the definition of success and the value of humor in leadership. He also shares practical tips on observing oneself to detect changes in emotion or behavior and finding a balance between productivity and calmness. The episode ends with a reminder to change one's awareness of oneself in order to bring about personal growth. https://bit.ly/TLP-360 Key Takeaways [00:05] Aidan Higgins, is a leadership coach at Adeo Consulting and the author of "Lead from you". He believes that personal awareness and leadership awareness are the same thing and that leaders need to be conscious of their thoughts, emotions and how they act out, so their beliefs, thoughts, and emotions become their actions. [12:07] The conversation is about leadership and the need to adapt to changing times and technologies. There is a focus on the need for collaborative leadership rather than a top-down approach. The issue of control is also discussed, with the suggestion that some leaders need to learn to let go of control in order to achieve better outcomes. [16:10] Effective leadership is not just about having good intentions but also about understanding one's definition of success and the impact of childhood training. Many leaders strive for succes and may not even enjoy their achievements. Self-awareness is essential to achieving a balance between productivity and calmness. [20:49] Aidan also covers the importance of work ethic and discipline in the past, the role of having fun in bonding and interjecting humor in the workplace, and the challenges that leaders face in creating a good atmosphere for their team outside of work. [33:39] Aidan talks about the importance of overcoming addiction to being busy and finding a balance between productivity and calmness, which allows for more powerful and productive work. [35:08] Aidan shares a story about a successful leader who initially resisted change but eventually embraced it and brought the whole organization along by creating posters and explaining the "why" behind the changes. Aidan finds joy in seeing the leader's transformation and success. [40:02] According to Aidan, commitment, openness, and trust were the three independent words that allowed the team to be successful in achieving their goals. [41:50] Aidan challenges us to be more self-aware and authentic in leadership by observing one's actions and thoughts, questioning why things are done a certain way, and being mindful of self-talk. The goal is to understand oneself better to achieve personal growth and avoid being controlled by external factors. [45:43] Closing quote: Remember, what is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself. — Abraham Maslow Quotable Quotes "Control was always an illusion." "If the pressure is on so much, or you're in an environment where you cannot fail or you cannot take a risk, you can't move forward." "Character is who you are. Reputation is what people think of you, which you have no control over." "Not everybody has good intentions." "Appropriate humor in the right place at the right time is very useful, and having a sense of humor about things and about people and all that is very helpful." "Those without a sense of humor are not liked as leaders." "The truth without compassion is cruelty." "Stop and observe yourself." "You are not your thoughts." "If you're in the middle of a fog of anxiety or depression, you're not in the present." "You can't see opportunities because you're not in the present." "Watch the self-talk as well as another good indicator of the sort of mindset you're having." "What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself." — Abraham Maslow Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Adeo Consulting Website| www.adeo.ie Aidan Higgins on Twitter | @aidanhiggins Aidan Higgins on LinkedIn | Aidan Higgins Adeo Consulting Facebook | Adeo Consulting Ltd. "5 Strategies to infuse D&I into Your Organization," HBR

Linguistics professor, Valerie Fridland, explores the evolution of language and offers insights on how we can use it more effectively in the workplace. From the use of filled pauses and uptalk to the gender-based biases that affect language perception, Valerie provides a fascinating look at the role of language in our lives. Also discussed are the benefits of embracing language evolution, and how it can improve communication and connection in our personal and professional lives. https://bit.ly/TLP-359 Key Takeaways [01:11] Valerie Fridland, a linguistics professor and author of "Like, literally, Dude: Arguing For Good In Bad English," challenges the notion of "correct" language and encourages us to embrace language evolution. Her personal experience as a parent highlights the importance of understanding language in the real world. [03:51] Valerie talks about speech patterns and language usage, including uptalk and discourse markers. People have specific likes and dislikes when it comes to language, including certain words or phrases that they find annoying or grating. However, many of these preferences are actually based on regional dialects or historical linguistic changes and may not be as important or incorrect as people think. [14:38] Valerie talks about how filled pauses, such as "ums" and "uhs," which are typically considered to be bad public speaking habits, are actually beneficial for speakers and listeners. [20:10] Men and women process language similarly, but societal expectations and cultural models can influence the types of language they prefer. Young women are often the initiators and spreaders of language change. Different linguistic styles exist, but it's not about gender, it's about individual preference and social roles. [25:14] Valerie also discusses the differences in language and style between generations, genders, and ethnic groups, and how these differences can affect communication in the workplace. While it's okay to have a preferred style of communication, it's also important to come to a compromise and be open to new ideas. [35:19] Tips from Valerie that we can implement to make our workplaces more inclusive of everyone linguistically. Leaders should be aware of their own language biases and avoid making assumptions based on linguistic characteristics such as voice pitch or discourse markers. By being more inclusive of diverse linguistic styles, leaders can create a more welcoming and productive workplace for everyone. [39:19] While social media and other forms of communication may be disseminating information faster than ever before, the actual changes in language are relatively slow compared to historical changes. Additionally, Valerie discusses and gives examples of how the speed at which we speak and the perceived charisma of a speaker is a complex interplay of various factors, including speech rate, pitch, intonation patterns, and the use of vocal fry. Varying the tempo and intonational variability can contribute to charismatic speech. [47:04] Closing quote: Remember, slang is a language that rolls up its sleeves, spits on its hands, and goes to work. — Carl Sandberg Quotable Quotes "Language is a window into our minds and how our minds work." "Language is constantly changing and evolving, and it's a really fascinating thing to study." "We can learn a lot about our society and how we view things through our language." "The social beliefs we have about language and the linguistic reality are completely opposite." "Filled pauses, or 'UMS' and 'UZ,' are actually a superpower for speakers and listeners." "UMS are signals of hard cognitive effort, and they help us process complex information." "UMS also signals to listeners that we're not done speaking and helps with turn-taking." "Language is a tool that we use to convey our thoughts and emotions, and it's important to understand how it works." "Language is not just about communication, it's also about identity and how we perceive ourselves and others." "Candor has to be in different contexts for different reasons." "Language is fun, and amazing. Language is a connection and communication. And sometimes we forget that we're not there to be perfect speakers, we're there to be connected speakers. So focus on connection and communication. You can't go wrong." "Slang is a language that rolls up its sleeves, spits on its hands, and goes to work." Carl Sandberg Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Valerie Fridland | www.valeriefridland.com Valerie Fridland on Twitter | @FridlandValerie Valerie Fridland on LinkedIn | Valerie Fridland "5 Strategies to infuse D&I into Your Organization," HBR

Sean Conley, Chief Learning Officer for Baker Hughes, discusses the importance of creating a people-first culture while still achieving results for your business. Sean talks about the importance of creating an environment where people want to learn and change their behavior through repetition and trial-and-error. He also touches on the challenges of our educational system and the need to create white space in calendars for growth and development amidst busy schedules. Join us as we explore the insights shared by Sean on the importance of investing in learners, fostering inclusion, and creating a culture of appreciation and effective communication. https://bit.ly/TLP-358 Key Takeaways [01:02] Sean Conley, shares his 40 years of experience in learning and development, and he still finds himself passionate about what he does every day. He believes that this passion is crucial in helping others bring out the best in themselves and growing as a leader. [05:44] Sean discusses the importance of creating a learning environment where employees are given the choice to opt-in rather than being forced to participate in learning and development activities. He also discusses the importance of marketing and enticing employees to want to learn, rather than trying to push them into it. [13:17] Sean encouraged people to pursue their interests and passions using the many available resources for learning, rather than just focusing on memorizing information. Behavior change should be the focus of learning. [15:49] Create white space for personal growth & development, focus on changing individual behavior rather than the whole organization, help people understand various ways to learn, it's about time focus not just management, recharge when needed, encourage learners to create their own white space. [18:11] Sean believes investing in frontline leaders is key for organizational success, setting habits and behaviors that follow them. Senior management should focus on developing talent rather than learning new skills, creating an ecosystem for growth and development and leaving a legacy by developing successors. [20:45] Sean talks about how an organization can't grow if its people can't grow. Growth opportunities should be given when the learners are ready. It's important to focus on behavior change and application of learning to shape an organization. [24:45] Sean answers the question, "What are we getting right and what are we getting not so right about inclusion?". While there is progress in discussing inclusion in organizations, it's important to not only include those who are present but also consider who is not in the room and ensure everyone has a voice and is part of the dialogue. [26:42] Sean discusses the importance of diversity of the mind in the workplace and how learning is a key part of shaping the culture of an organization. Different individuals have different learning styles and as such, learning programs need to be designed to cater to different types of learners. [30:59] Sean agrees that leaders should start with ensuring that everyone in the tribe feels appreciated and valued for their contribution before addressing issues of belonging and inclusion. Sean also acknowledges the challenge of being a busy leader but sees it as a great reminder to prioritize appreciation in both business and personal life [35:19] Sean admits to still working on improving his communication skills and the art of telling, asking, and listening. He stresses the need to ask better questions and not simply react, but to listen intently to pull more information out. This highlights the idea that communication is an ongoing process that requires continuous improvement. [36:46] When is it okay to break the rules?According to Sean, "Rules are just made up by people and they're made up at a time. So sometimes (it's not really) I won't say break(ing) the rules, but we get to question them sometimes." [40:41] Closing quote: And remember, "He who learns but does not think is lost. He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger." - Confucius Quotable Quotes "By investing in yourself and by growing yourself, you actually show up better for your customers." "Learning comes with behavior change." "Getting your brain going and learning something is better than none." "It's not time management, it's time focus." "Learning environment is part of how you shape a culture in an organization." "Be courageous. It's the only place left uncrowded." - Anita Roddick Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Sean Conley on LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/in/conleyglobal Baker Hughes Website | www.bakerhughes.com/ Baker Hughes on LinkedIn | www.linkedin.com/company/bakerhughes Baker Hughes on Twitter | @bakerhughesco

Stephen Drum, retired Navy SEAL master chief and author of "Life on the X: A Navy SEAL's Guide to Meeting Any Challenge with Courage, Confidence, and Readiness", discusses the values and commitments necessary for effective leadership. This is Steve's second time as a guest on The Leadership Podcast, and in this episode he discusses the importance of being authentic in one's values and purpose along with the significance of focusing on the basics to achieve success. The use of After Action Reviews (AARs) is also highlighted as a way to continuously improve performance by identifying opportunities for growth. Join us as we dive deeper into this conversation about leadership, feedback, and the application of military principles to business leadership. Key Takeaways [04:26] Stephen Drum talks about the meaning behind the title of his book "Life on the X." The X represents the critical point of execution on a combat mission, the most dangerous and difficult point. By preparing and training for this point, success can be achieved in less dangerous situations. [06:38] The first section of the book discusses commitment, values, purpose, attributes, and character. [09:53] Stephen believes leaders need to focus on the basics, being crystal clear on the desired end state and checking for comprehension. They caution against getting too caught up in technology and processes before identifying the necessary resources for a project or endeavor. [12:40] Stephen believes that brilliant basics consist of giving resources, setting clear expectations and accountability, and coaching depending on an individual's skills and experience. He also emphasizes the importance of contingency planning and emotional control. [24:48] Stephen explains that the concept of After Action Reviews (AARs) depends on the position and organization, but some clients gravitate towards it while others are focused on the production and don't have time. Steve suggests making the process efficient and identifying opportunities to leverage the experience. Steve finds that clients embrace this approach. [27:20] During a meeting with a client, Stephen realized the client's note-taking gave him confidence they would follow through on the discussed actions. He believes taking notes is important in memorializing information and it helps people remember and take things seriously. [30:30] Stephen also talks about the challenges of giving effective feedback. Research shows that feedback is often not as effective as we think because people tend to get defensive and blame others or misremember. As a leader, it's important to give future-focused, succinct feedback that only addresses things that can be changed. [34:16] Stephen explains feedback in the military serves different purposes, such as accountability and documentation, but can also be used to replicate the stress of combat. The military also practices intrusive leadership, which involves getting into people's personal lives to provide support and resources. [38:14] Stephen reflects on how in special operations, there are peaks and troughs, whereas in the business world, it's go time all the time, and without self-care, burnout is inevitable. [40:55] People tend to push too hard and can't keep up that pace. Separating work and family can be healthy for some, but for others, it's better to have a more intense focus on work or other activities. In the military, there's no time off during a deployment, and even holidays are not completely free of work. In the business world, it's important to find ways to foster creativity and give employees a break from the grind of their daily work. [42:29] Identify their next big moment or key opportunity and develop an architecture for success, which aligns with the theme of his book. [43:36] Closing quote: Remember, "You will never do anything in this world without courage. It is the greatest quality of the mind, next to honor. " — Aristotle Quotable Quotes "As the leader, you have to be crystal clear on the desired end state." "We sometimes give into or fall prey to the allure of technology or certain sexy processes." "You're engaging more parts of your brain when you want to memorize something." "If it's serious and important enough, you're going to take the time to put pen to paper." "Feedback is not nearly as effective as you think it is, or that you need it to be." "If you're receiving feedback and it basically could be construed as negative or overly constructive, you're going to get defensive." "Identify what your next big moment or key opportunity is and figure out how you're going to develop the architecture for success." "A lot of people want to work from home, but for many people, it's healthy to have a separation, to go to work and be focused on that and then come home and focus just on that." "The mind, body, soul is critical. The body piece, rest, nutrition, physical activity, how that contributes to emotions and cognitive ability." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by | www.darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC | www.raftiadvisors.com Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | selfreliantleadership.com Stephen Drum | stephendrum.com Stephen Drum on LinkedIn | Stephen Drum Stephen Drum on Facebook | www.facebook.com/stephen.drum.967 Stephen Drum on Instagram | @stephen.drum "5 Strategies to infuse D&I into Your Organization," HBR

With his unique brand of edgy leadership, Dr. Todd Dewett is one of the most in-demand keynote speakers in the world, an internationally sought-after expert, a four-time TEDx speaker, and has been quoted in TIME, The New York Times, Bloomberg, Business Week, Forbes, CNN, and many more outlets. He is the author of "Dancing With Monsters, a Tale About Leadership, Success, and Overcoming Fears." In this interview, Todd talks about the challenges of work including: facing our fears to build confidence; the generational challenges, boundaries, and when quitting should be considered. Listen in to hear how to deal with your mistakes, how to find "fit," and the importance of outside counsel. https://bit.ly/TLP-356 Key Takeaways [1:56] Todd's bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) Todd comes to The Leadership Podcast through a mutual friend, Dean Karrel; both are phenomenal LinkedIn Learning instructors. Todd and Jan share a publisher. [3:29] Todd is a proud father of two; a sophomore in high school and a sophomore in college. They're the best thing he's ever done. Todd and his wife are besties and business partners. She is going through a battle with cancer and they don't know what's going to happen. Todd strives to understand it and be useful to her as she tries to beat this thing. [5:25] Todd likes most to speak about universal experiences; to take a thing we all know and give it a fresh perspective. Wanting to quit is a universal experience. Is it bad or good? It depends. Giving up too easily is a problem for some people. But quitting isn't simply bad. It can be strategically very useful. If something is not working out, it may be time to stop investing in it to invest in something better. [7:58] If fear is common at work it may be due to a poor culture or poor managers. But even in great work cultures, fear of what to say and how to act in a new situation is wired into us. We want to please people and be liked. Fear at work is an important topic to explore. Work is affecting people's physical and mental health in ways that are not productive. We need to learn how to mitigate the experience of fear. [10:33] Fear can manifest as indecision. We walk through a large system of interlocking expectations from ourselves, our parents, our partners, our peers, our supervisors, others at work, and our family. We don't always know how to navigate it successfully. Sometimes it's indecision, sometimes it's rash poor decision-making, and sometimes it's overreaching. [11:03] What is the reasonable, measured way to deal with that normal anxiety we feel in the middle of all those expectations? Good coaching and some thought will get you through that. The real problem is people who haven't done the work to narrow down the possibilities and don't know what their career goal is at all so they defer the decision to someone else. [12:31] Todd delivered a TEDx talk at Texas A&M, long after his Ph.D. there. It was based on his experiences as an employee and a professor, that lots of people love to talk about creativity and innovation but the gap between the concepts and the practice of embracing them is enormous. When people innovate or tweak a process, they receive pushback and criticism. Change may be seen as a threat. [14:28] Confidence is both a personality trait and a skill that can be built over time. Todd recommends the repetition of engaging these risks and learning from them in an environment that is supportive of innovation. People like Todd have a job because much of what people do doesn't naturally mesh with their environments. They don't fit without some effort. [16:21] The pandemic accelerated thinking about these issues and it came at a time of a generational shift we've never seen. There are five generations represented in the workforce. The definition of success is slowly shifting toward what makes the employee happy and find purpose, more than what others think. [16:49] The Great Resignation and Quiet Quitting seem to support that shift. Millennials and Zs do have different professional values in terms of wanting to be a partner and be heard rather than being subordinate and following orders. They want more leisure but also want to feel more purpose than earlier generations. People respond fantastically well when they believe they are heard. [18:26] The key to "fit" is objectively getting the skills that you need to do the work you want to do, and finding people that you enjoy, no matter the thing you're working on. The skills and the people both feed into your experience of "fit." [19:36] Todd agrees that there is both a corporate responsibility and a personal responsibility to provide meaning to work. He says, "Never believe the simple narrative." Millennials and Zs find it shocking that when starting a job, it is important to learn the norms, the rules, the expectations, and what it takes to be a top performer there, before demanding to be heard. It goes both ways. [22:19] People are aging out of the labor force faster than workers are entering it. Jobs have changed over the last 30 years. We lost many jobs and replaced them with service jobs. It may be harder to find purpose and alignment with a low-paying service job than it did with a high-paying manufacturing job. [23:54] No one's perfect all the time. We have moods, moments, and external factors that impact us. Even on our best days, we're imperfect. One of the themes in Dancing with Monsters is that "You're wonderfully imperfect but still perfectly capable of doing amazing things." Talk about it more than less. It leads to empathy, authenticity, and vulnerability. [24:21] The world of our fathers and grandfathers placed an uncrossable line between the personal and professional. There are some holes in the wall now, but it hasn't come down. Humans want to have authentic human connections that are meaningfully fulfilling. But instead, we put on a polished, professional version of ourselves that we hope will keep us out of trouble and maybe even get us ahead. [25:04] You don't have to hide. Most people through conversation can make teams meaningfully better. We need to be validated a little more, understood a little more, and be better listeners. We learn that everybody's imperfect, and that's OK. The key to great teams isn't finding the best talent, but talent is still required. The key is chemistry and getting the best joint performance out of the people that you do have. [26:45] Leaders are sometimes going to go too far. It's normal. What do they do to show vulnerability? Don't run from it. Own that. If apologies or statements are needed, make them sooner than later. But first, assume you do not see yourself and the situation perfectly. Find people who have insights into what just happened and ask them for their insights. They see you differently than you see yourself. [27:25] Take time to think about a path forward for using the error to make yourself better. Todd shares a story of embarrassing himself as a young professional speaker by bombing onstage in front of thousands of people. He used it as an opportunity to check his emotions, step back, examine the things he did wrong, and make a plan to fix them and not repeat the same mistakes. He used it to make himself better. [29:02] Writing a monster story is unusual in the leadership space. It came from a mistake! Two years ago, for the third time, Todd wrote a novel, and "It was not good." He is done trying to scratch that itch! The story involved a vampire in an office and he still loved the idea. After thinking about Patrick Lencioni and others, Todd got excited about a fable and started writing his book. Six hours later, he had the first draft. [30:49] Whatever your generation may be, the "more" that you search should be defined by you, whether it's just about work, or larger issues in life, Todd still says, "More is always possible." [32:32] Millennials and Zs have seen all kinds of financial adversity. No one understands success without understanding failure. Todd says he had so many big, fat, ugly failures in his career, it's hilarious! If you have one or two moderate successes people think good things about you. It's the halo effect. Todd loves talking about failures. [35:02] Leaders want to be aspirational but sometimes don't live the values. The gap between rhetoric and reality causes a massive cultural problem in organizations. Todd promotes more realism with high levels of candor and kindness. When employees make mistakes, discuss the mistakes with kindness and candor and admit your own mistakes. With kindness and candor, you can deal with reality a lot better. [37:27] We're not great at understanding ourselves or others as much as we think we are. Outside counsel is essential in any success story, for sure! Growth starts when you leave your comfort zone. That's just a truism. Allow your boss and allow yourself to push yourself, into areas that make you a little uncomfortable. That's where growth comes from. [38:49] Todd's closing thoughts: "Having what it takes to become an effective leader and finding success in your career, is not about what you're born with, it's about the skills that you build. And with the right effort and the right people around you, any of us can find those things and build those things. It is within our reach. I love sharing that with people." [39:37] Closing quote: Remember, "I have learned over the years that when one's mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear." — Rosa Parks Quotable Quotes "Proud father of two; I've got a sophomore in high school and a sophomore in college and they're the best thing I've ever done, no matter how much I might talk about a book or a course." "Lots of people, if not everyone, love to talk about creativity and innovation but the gap between the allure of those concepts and the practice of embracing them is enormous beyond words!" "We tend to see people respond … tremendously well when they believe they're being listened to. … The research suggests that teams and organizations tend to respond a lot better." "The key to 'fit' is objectively trying to go find the skills that you need to do the work that you want to do. That's Part 1 but Part 2 really is finding people that you enjoy no matter the thing you're working on." "Most people through conversation can make teams meaningfully better. … We just need to be validated a little more, understood a little more, and be better listeners." "The key to great teams isn't finding the best talent, although talent, of course, must be present. The key is chemistry and getting the best interlocking performance out of the people that you do have. That's chemistry, and it tends to be a better predictor of success than just base-level talent." "Growth starts when you leave your comfort zone. … Allow your boss and allow yourself to push yourself, performance-wise, into areas that start to make you a little uncomfortable. That's where growth comes from." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Todd Dewett, Ph.D. Todd Dewett on LinkedIn Learning Dean Karrel on LinkedIn Learning Dancing With Monsters, A Tale About Leadership, Success, and Overcoming Fears Brené Brown Kim Cameron Patrick Lencioni Who Moved My Cheese?, by Spencer Johnson, M.D. The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt Lee Benson

Vitaliy Katsenelson is the CEO and Chief Investment Officer of IMA and the author of three books. His most recent book is "Soul in the Game: The Art of a Meaningful Life." Vitaliy was born in Murmansk, Russia, and immigrated to the United States with his family in 1991. In this interview, Vitaliy contrasts his experience growing up in the Soviet Union with his experience in the United States, and how different his mindset was in each place. He also discusses how Stoic philosophy has been very helpful. He discusses how his essay about Tchaikovsky aims to help others who may be struggling with creativity. Listen in for a vibrant discussion on intention, communication, and vulnerability. https://bit.ly/TLP-355 Key Takeaways [1:53] Vitaliy's bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) [2:22] Vitaliy loves investing, writing, classical music, and spending time with his family, Vitaliy's father is a fantastic artist and Vitaliy has a small gallery of his work. [3:49] How Vitaliy sees the differences between Murmansk, Russia, and Denver, Colorado. Denver has lots of sunshine. In the winter, Murmansk has a few minutes of sunshine a day. When Vitaliy lived there, it was Soviet Russia. Freedom of speech and the free market did not exist in Russia. All businesses were owned by the government. Here we have an abundance of food and a lack of scarcity. [6:56] Vitaliy shares thoughts on how Russians and Americans communicate. He read How to Win Friends and Influence People when he was 18 in Russia. He hated the book and felt it was teaching him how to be fake. He read it again 20 years later and was shocked by how brilliant it is. He is re-reading it with his 17-year-old daughter and she loves it. She has an American mindset. [8:06] When Vitaliy came to the U.S. he found that Americans are very indirect and smile all the time, contrasted with Russians who are sometimes painfully direct. Vitaly was fired from his first American job. The man firing him was smiling at him, which was a confusing signal. Vitaly fine-tuned himself to a balance between directness and indirectness. He tries not to criticize people so his message is clearly received. [9:10] If Vitaliy has a criticism, he first tries to make sure to tell the person positive things. Then he structures the criticism as constructive feedback. He learned that from Dale Carnegie and living in the U.S. for 30 years. Vitaliy says if he had continued to communicate in the Soviet Russian style, he could not have achieved anything in the U.S. [10:43] Vitaliy's intentionality comes from the conscious choice to be mindful. To have a work/life balance you just have to be mindful about having the balance. Vitaliy knew he wanted to be a good father to his children. He made a mindful choice to spend more time with his children. He chooses to drive his children to school before going to work on a busy day. [12:38] Vitaliy has a value to be a good father. To live up to the value he has to be mindful about being with his children. If he just went on autopilot, he would just default to the easiest things to do which for him is working 10-hour and 12-hour days. To be mindful, he stops after eight hours. When he gets home and has dinner with his kids, he's not looking at his phone. He's present with them, giving them attention. [14:26] To live a meaningful life, figure out exactly what you value and spend your time according to your values. [15:32] Vitaliy sees value in simplicity. [16:50] As Vitaliy was working on the last chapter of his book, he put it on pause to study and write on Stoicism. He studied Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, and Seneca. Epictetus taught a framework that some things are up to you and some things aren't. What is up to you are your values and how you behave. Everything else is external and is not up to you. Don't try to control what is out of your control. [19:03] Vitaliy's 17-year-old daughter just got her first job at a coffee shop. She finds a co-worker annoying. Vitaliy asked her if she expected every co-worker to be perfect. It's not up to you how other people are. Vitaliy finds this framework to be simple and elegant; if you embrace the Stoic philosophy it will reduce the volatility and negativity in your life. [20:27] When he learned Stoic philosophy, Vtaliy realized he had made choices in the past unconsciously that were aligned with Stoic philosophy. Adopting Stoic philosophy intentionally has changed his life. He wrote that section of the book as much for himself as for the reader. [21:51] Every three to four months, Vitaliy sends his clients a 30-page letter in a story-telling format. As an experiment, once he sent the letter in a condensed format of brief bullet points. Eighty percent of his clients preferred the long letter. It was easier for them to read in stories than in bullet points. [23:33] You want to be very careful on the receiving side of storytelling and people who are terrific speakers. They appeal to your emotions. Stoics break down the message to its bare bones, to the bullet points. There is a conflict between Stoics and Sophists. Vitaliy acknowledges he is a Sophist in storytelling. At the same time, his values are Stoic. Sophists hijack the message and they may not have good values. [24:56] When Vitaliy encounters terrific communicators, he is very cautious to make sure the way they communicate does not impact his decision-making. [26:17] Music is an incredibly important part of Vitaliy's life. He has written essays on the music that was important to him at any year of his life. Vitaly gets up every day at 4:30 or 5:00 and writes for two hours while listening to classical music in his headphones. Those two hours every day are very special to Vitaliy. Listening to classical music while he writes has helped his creativity tremendously. [28:07] Vitaliy's kids made him appreciate chess. It's one of the few games he likes playing with them. His daughter invited him to play after watching The Queen's Gambit. After a game, they review the moves, trying to find the solution for the best move possible at any point. It makes an intellectually honest discussion. Jan notes it's like a military after-action review (AAR). Both become better players. [30:34] Writing music is a very creative activity. When you listen to classical music, think about how difficult it was for the composer to write it. Tchaikovsky left behind many letters to his brother and his friends. His letters describe how he struggled to compose his music. Vitaliy's book came about because he had been writing an essay about one of Tchaikovsky's pieces of music. [31:45] Vitaliy read Tchaikovsky's letters and realized that the suffering the composer went through was so similar to the suffering Vitaliy goes through as a writer. He wrote an essay comparing the struggles of Tchaikovsky to the struggles a creative writer goes through. [32:11] When Vitaliy finished the essay, he realized other struggling writers could be helped by reading it. Over the years, he had written many essays that could help others. So he put them together in a book. [32:45] When you study the lives of composers, you listen to music very differently. You feel the pain they felt as they were writing. You realize that you will have some very difficult times creating, and as long as you love writing, pain is just part of the journey. The lives of the composers made Vitaliy appreciate classical music so much more. There is an incredible amount of hard work, pain, and struggle in creativity. [34:52] Vitaliy finds that parenting and leadership have parallels. But leadership mistakes don't haunt you for the rest of your life! Vitality exposes his kids to new things all the time. They watch YouTube videos on various subjects. He introduces them to new books all the time. They discuss different topics and he doesn't talk down to them. He is interested to know what they think. [35:56] As a parent and as a leader, it's important to be vulnerable. You admit that you don't have all the answers. When you communicate, spend most of the time in the scientist mode. Whatever you're looking at is a theory. You are trying to discover truth. [36:59] When you make a mistake you admit it. Then your employees will be more comfortable admitting they made mistakes as well. [37:45] Vitaliy shares a link where you can hear his podcasts and read his articles. [38:23] Closing quote: Remember, "Do not act as if you had 10,000 years to throw away. Death stands at your elbow. Be good for something while you live and it is in your power." — Marcus Aurelius Quotable Quotes "If you insult a person first and then you give them a message, that message will never arrive." "My daughter and I are reading [How to Win Friends and Influence People] together … and she loves the book!" "Being around your kids while you are reading Financial Times on your iPhone is not being around your kids. Attention is a currency of time. So it's when I give them that attention, when I'm present, that's very, very important." "There is so much value in simplicity." "If you waste your energy trying to control things that are not up to you, you're going to have one miserable life. You're going to have this emotional rollercoaster of being upset." "I would argue that if you embraced Stoic philosophy, what it does, it would just reduce the volatility; it would reduce negativity in your life. And by reducing negativity, it's going to make your life calmer; more peaceful." "Listening to classical music when I write has helped my creativity tremendously. Studies were done on the subject. And they … showed that when you listen to music, … it forces your left brain and right brain to work at the same time. It basically increases your creativity." "I have found that there are a lot of parallels between being a parent and being a leader … [but] I guess if you screw up as a leader those mistakes don't haunt you for the rest of your life." "When you study the lives of composers, … you're going to start listening to music very differently. You're going to feel the pain Tchaikovsky felt when he was writing. … You're going to appreciate as a creator that at times you're going to have a very difficult time creating." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Vitaliy Katsenelson Investment Management Associates Soul In the Game: The Art of a Meaningful Life The Intellectual Investor podcast Vitaliy Katsenelson Vitaliy Katsenelson on Contrarian Edge Murmansk How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie Warren Buffet Stoicism Epictetus Marcus Aurelius Seneca Ryan Holiday Sophists The Queen's Gambit After Action Review Tchaikovsky Vitaliy Katsenelson Vitaliy Katsenelson is CEO and Chief Investment Officer of IMA and the author of Soul in the Game: The Art of a Meaningful Life. Vitaliy was born in Murmansk, Russia, and immigrated to the United States with his family in 1991. After joining Denver-based investment firm IMA in 1997, Vitaliy became Chief Investment Officer in 2007 and CEO in 2012. He's an award-winning writer with two books on investing and countless articles in publications such as The Financial Times and Barron's. Vitaliy lives in Denver with his wife and three kids where he loves to read, listen to classical music, play chess, and write about life, investing, and music. Soul in the Game is his third book and his first non-investing book.

Steve House is Founder of Uphill Athlete and a proudly retired professional climber and mountain guide. Jan has known him for years. For 21 years, Steve was a professional climber. In 1999 he became only the ninth American to achieve IFMGA certification, which is the highest level to guide all over the world. He has guided trips all across the world. In this discussion, Steve shares his journey from mountain sports to high-altitude climbing, to a nearly fatal fall, to coaching. Besides coaching mountain athletes, his current challenge is getting his pilot's license. Steve talks about the purposes of mountain sports and how separation from daily distractions while moving your body through nature guides you on your journey. https://bit.ly/TLP-354 Key Takeaways [1:53] Jan shares Steve's bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) [4:19] Steve thanks Jan and Jim for the invitation to The Leadership Podcast. As a professional athlete, there's not much that's not in his public bio. He's almost a private pilot and is less than a month from taking his final practical exam. He describes a recent incredible flight and the energy flying gives him. [7:09] When Steve was 20, he was studying in college to be an aeronautical engineer. Then he got hijacked by climbing. Now he has the chance to come back and do something he has always loved. [8:17] In 2010, Steve was doing a training climb preparing for an expedition to do a new route on the west face of K2 with an expert fellow climber. He had a bad fall of around 100 feet. He broke 24 ribs. Two ribs were smashed into innumerable pieces. He had multiple pelvis fractures, knocked all the spinal processes off his vertebrae, and had many internal injuries. [9:18] Steve lay on his back for about two hours. He knew he had hemopneumothorax. His breathing grew shallow as his chest cavity filled with blood. What came out of that was a lot of self-reflection. He had to come to terms with his drive to become the very best at what he did. That was his mission statement. [10:45] As Steve reflected, at age 39, he was trying to figure out if he would function again. He had to think about what his values were, and what he cared about and wanted to do. Was it time to change his mission statement? He hadn't accomplished everything in climbing but he decided he had accomplished enough. He could be proud of what he did do, and he was going to pivot to other values and other goals. [11:57] In elite sports, you're boxed off from the world. You eat, sleep, train, and go climb. You save all your energy to be better. It's how you achieve individual greatness. But you're not part of a team. Steve saw his crisis as a time to reflect and redirect. [13:48] Steve thinks that due to the intensity with which he pursued his goals, he required an intense jolt to trigger reflection. Anything less wasn't going to work. He notes that most of the people he climbed with are dead. That's how risky and dangerous climbing is. Steve has only a handful of friends from that era that are still alive. Steve realized he was going to join those who were no longer alive if he continued. [15:29] As a mountain sports trainer, Steve is in a position to help athletes get past the binary narrative of success or failure. There's a much greater range of possible experiences. We have often seen that the one that came in first cheated or used performance-enhancing substances. The whole paradigm is broken. There is another way to experience sports. Mountain sports do not have a history of competition. [17:02] Steve would tell his younger self he was always going to feel like an imposter, and that was completely OK, and that everybody else does, too. That feeling was one of the things that were hardest for him to overcome. It goes back to childhood. He was the scrawny little kid that wasn't good at sports. [18:49] One of the things that Steve learned from childhood was grit. He loved gritty experiences from a very early age. When he was 10, he backpacked his first 50-mile hike. When he was 11, he climbed Mount Hood. These were just things they did as a family or with his father. He enjoyed it. [20:37] Steve and his Uphill Athlete team talk about Campbell's Hero's Journey paradigm and try to figure out what step their client is on for that journey. The goal is to help them through that one step. Everyone is on the same journey, at a different step. [23:22] Uphill Athlete doesn't exist to motivate people but to educate and inspire. Coaching is education and teaching people how they can apply endurance training methodologies and see the changes in their bodies. It takes a couple of months for people to get fully bought in and see their progress. When they get to that epiphany, they are committed to the journey for life and remain in the Uphill Athlete community. [25:17] Going back to the imposter syndrome, Steve is often surprised that he knows the answer. And the only reason he can know the answer is because he lived it through 20 years of being an athlete. These are things you cannot learn in a physiology textbook. [26:05] What holds people back is their minds, their fears, their insecurities, and the pieces that they don't understand, or can't conceptualize well. Those are the questions Steven can clear up easily, but he is always surprised. [27:37] Steve tried to teach a man with a Ph.D. in exercise physiology how to coach but it was impossible because he didn't understand what it felt like in his body to do what was written on the training plan. He couldn't relate to the people even though he'd run circles around everybody on the science. [28:27] When Steve interviews people to be coaches, he's looking for people who have a unique superpower. He doesn't need 15 people that all know the same thing. He needs people that have different backgrounds and experiences and are willing and eager to share with other people and also learn from them. They have to be far enough along on their journey that they can take feedback constructively. [29:17] When you have a team that can do all of those things, it's incredible. Steve's team includes physical therapists, medical doctors, masters in high altitude physiology, and coaches that have coached every endurance sport you can imagine. They have great energy between them. [30:29] Some people Steven hires have well-defined superpowers. Some younger people don't know their superpower. Steven describes how he leverages coaches to develop the superpower in people within a relationship that is entirely a safe place for them to ask those "dumb questions." [33:39] Steve has a lot of athletes that do not have a set goal. They want to learn and experience and be in a community of like-minded people. Steve tells them it's OK not to have an Everest goal. Sometimes it's enough to engage with people as you learn. [36:10] Arthur Brooks's new book, From Strength to Strength, is about finding clarity in the second chapter of life. [36:47] Steve uses the phrase, "naming the uncertainty." Write down what you don't know. Let that sit. People come back to him in a month and say it was great to let that sink in. There are more than two chapters for a lot of people. [37:38] Mountain sports have an important role to play in people's journeys. Being in the wilderness in small teams and overcoming obstacles lets the noise go away. So much more happens out there than we give it credit for. People are not getting pings out there moving their bodies through nature and letting their subconscious minds do the work. Steve has solved writer's block many times with a long walk. [43:52] Steven's final thought: "It's joyful to learn something. It's joyful to become fitter. It's joyful to climb a mountain. … Walking up a summit ridge and standing on top of a mountain is ultimately no different than walking into the grocery store and going to the cereal aisle. But what is different is if you've been to the top of the mountain, you have an appreciation for all the rest." [45:34] Closing quote: Remember, "People say, 'Are you insane?' But the most successful climbers are the most calculating, with the most refined sense of risk. They're hyper-conscious of safety. They're the least insane people I know." — Jimmy Chin Quotable Quotes "I'm almost a private pilot. … I'm less than a month away. … I just had an amazing flight. … I flew from Slovenia down into Croatia, landed on an island, … flew back to Slovenia, landed … in the mountains in Slovenia, Took off from there, and returned to the home airport." "[After a difficult accomplishment], at the end of the day, you just feel so full of energy and experience and awe." "In 2010, I was doing a training climb. I was preparing for an expedition to climb a new route, … and … I fell around 100 feet. I broke 24 ribs, … I had multiple pelvis fractures, … [and] internal injuries. … I lay there for about two hours. I had a hemopneumothorax." "We don't always need a crisis. Sometimes it just takes a long walk in the woods. But I think that reassessing our values and making sure that they align with our purpose and our mission is probably something that all of us have to do many times throughout our lives." "This whole thing of like, 'If you're not first, you're last,' invalidates pretty much everyone's experience except one person's." "I loved gritty experiences from a very early age." "I'm often surprised that I know the answer. And the only reason I can know the answer is because I lived it through 20 years of being an athlete. These are things you cannot learn in a physiology textbook." "I've written four books now and I can't tell you how many times writer's block has just been solved by a long walk — and with no purpose. A walk with no purpose." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Steve House Uphill Athlete Vince Anderson Central Pillar of the Rupal Face Piolet d'Or (Golden Ice Ace) Reinhold Messner Campbell's Hero's Journey Krebs Cycle Tom Higley From Strength to Strength: Finding Success, Happiness, and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life, by Arthur Brooks Crucible Expeditions Steve House Bio For 21 years, Steve was a professional climber. His most famous ascent was with Vince Anderson. They did the central pillar of the Rupal Face and won the Piolet d'Or (Golden Ice Axe). Steve has done first ascents and new routes in Alaska, the Rockies, and the Alps, and is a famed climber. Renowned mountaineer Reinhold Messner called him the best high-altitude climber in the world. He's been an ambassador athlete for Patagonia, Grivola, Sportiva, Zeal Optics, and Coros Watches. Steve retired from professional climbing at the end of 2020 to dedicate himself to his family and Uphill Athlete. He currently lives in Austria with his Wife Eva and two sons. Steve has been a professional mountain guide since 1992. In 1999, he became only the ninth American to achieve IFMGA certification, which is the highest level to guide all over the world. There are less than 200 certified in the U.S. to this day. He has guided trips across the world.

Gena Cox, Ph.D. discusses her new book that provides powerful insights for leaders to drive inclusion: "Leading Inclusion: Drive Change Your Employees Can See and Feel." In this conversation, Gena stresses the value of human relationships, and how organizations have vast opportunities to optimize the human experiences for their employees. Gena reveals how a system that doesn't embrace inclusion will lose employees who don't feel included. Listen in for how curiosity can help your team feel even more connected. https://bit.ly/TLP-353 Key Takeaways [2:00] Dr. Cox tells how she is the luckiest person in the world. Her grandmother had a grade school education but was an entrepreneurial wizard. From watching her grandmother grow her neighborhood store, Gena learned the value of the human relationship in terms of getting things done. Gena's secret is that much of what she talks about comes from observing her grandmother and her customers. [2:56] When Dr. Cox was growing up, she wanted to be a journalist. She still sees journalists covering things around the world and imagines herself doing that. She supposes that journalists, like others, have a big "why" about how they can make the world better that lets them keep going. [4:22] Dr. Cox has been trained not to make assertions without evidence to support the assertions. She had known for a long time about the importance of respect. But it wasn't until the summer of 2020 when she interviewed leaders and surveyed employees about what they think leaders don't understand about inclusion, black employees said they felt leaders were distancing themselves and avoiding them. [5:54] When Dr. Cox did the content analysis to see the themes emerging from those comments, she came up with the word "respect." These comments were all about things where people wanted to be seen, heard, and valued. [7:07] It is important not to just think about these issues in the present, but to look centuries back. In our country, there are social dynamics that have existed for generations within a community where there are significant power imbalances. These imbalances correlate with race, ethnicity, and socioeconomics. Ignoring those factors can lead to misunderstanding the experience of employees from those places. [8:21] Dr. Cox wrote one chapter about history at the beginning of her book. It makes a difference if leaders understand the broader context before they try to address specific initiatives or priorities in their organizations because they might miss the mark, otherwise. [9:19] Dr. Cox works with leaders on inclusion and with individuals to think about how they can be the best that they desire to be. It takes two sides of this equation to tango to get the outcomes that we desire. Dr. Cox shares a case of a client feeling discriminated against in their career progress. Dr. Cox suggested they look for what they could do to get past the barrier and jump the hurdle. [10:28] Dr. Cox offers three ideas that can help each of us make that difference for ourselves. 1. Have a big "why" for what kind of influence and impact you desire to have. 2. Have a track where you are working on custom master classes. Learn as much as you can that will help you get to your goal. 3. Amplify and brand yourself within our job. Dress and behave for the job you want. [11:53] If your current job does not allow you to do all that, you might have to do it on a parallel track and keep it moving until you can use what you learn to move forward overall. [14:06] Dr. Cox thinks there is a lot of misinterpretation and reinterpretation that takes place about leaders like Martin Luther King. Dr. Cox does not talk a lot about what specific people have said. Some people hearing a quote may miss the main idea. Inclusion tops diversity. It's not just about getting more representation of a particular group. DE&I is really effective leadership of 100% of employees. [16:38] Dr. Cox talks about effective leadership to create situations where every single person in a team, group, or organization feels that he or she can put in the appropriate efforts and get the expected outcomes. We all have to have a part in making that happen, especially managers. [17:49] After George Floyd was killed, corporations started offering implicit bias training and hiring Chief Diversity Officers. Those two solutions are just tactics. They need to be added to a strategy that says "Here is what we are solving for." [18:34] The most important thing leaders can do to minimize the risk of doing things that are not effective is to start by talking to employees about what is their day-to-day experience. Then they will tell you what you should focus on first. [19:20] Dr. Cox would like leaders to attach fewer restrictions to the research-based insights, such as the size of the survey group. The research is too new to be buttoned down. Dr. Cox points to the value of qualitative data or the stories that people tell in this area. These stories haven't been told before so leaders don't understand the solutions they should implement. [21:28] Dr. Cox asked about three years ago in a LinkedIn article why, with regard to DE&I, organizations are not utilizing the same strategy and problem-solving techniques that they apply to every other problem. Because of the emotional component, including fear and anxiety, about the topic, leaders are failing to use the same kinds of judgment skills that they might have used for something else. [22:22] What research have you done? Have you gone to a solution without research or understanding what's going on so that your actions might work? Are you just throwing a dart at a board and hoping that something will stick? You would never do that if you were implementing a new initiative to support your customers or clients because you would know how high the risk would be. [23:18] The number one topic on the minds of boards of directors and leaders today, apart from making money, is talent. Under talent is the shortage of talent. Why is there a shortage of talent? People come up with a variety of explanations. The data Dr. Cox sees is that there is a significant portion of the workforce that feels alienated from their leaders and colleagues and dissatisfied. [24:31] The latest research says that 50% of Black American employees say that they are thinking about or preparing themselves to leave their current job. There has been more data over the past couple of years because of the pandemic. [24:55] Dr. Cox asks leaders to think about why there is so much dissatisfaction and whether it is true in their organization. If so, what are the elements in their organization that could be causing it? If not true, what could they learn about it? They're about to have this problem. What can they do to make it better for employees? [25:26] This leads to conversations about compensation, speaking up, well-being, mental health, and a variety of issues that should be at the tip of the spear. [26:31] Rehumanizing the workplace means emphasizing the idea that effective leadership is a pie chart. There's a piece for task performance and a piece for human performance. All the outcomes organizations are driving to achieve have a human component. [28:23] Leaders are telling employees to "come back to the office and do it this way," instead of considering alternative ways to work. There's a significant gap between what employees desire and what the leaders at the top think employees desire. Rehumanizing the workplace means connecting with the employees. [32:50] Dr. Cox doesn't want to believe that with MBA programs costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, organizations aren't focusing on the human experience. But she believes they are not focusing sufficiently on the human experience. The management of humans has not been balanced with task performance. Dr. Cox wants to do away with the term "soft skills" which are understood to be less than "hard skills." [34:40] In an HBR article, "5 Strategies to Infuse D&I into Your Organization," Dr. Cox writes about mitigating implicit bias at the systemic level. It involves looking at data the organization has about existing patterns within the organization of selection, promotion, career mobility, and visibility of people who have a variety of characteristics. [36:15] Leaders often think they are leading organizations where things are better than employees might imply that they are. Diversity is not just hiring diverse people. If new employees walk into situations where the environment is not ready for them or receptive to them, they are not going to stay. It's important for you to figure out, "What does it feel like to work in my organization every day?" [37:15] Leaders don't know how their managers behave, day-to-day, or recognize how often those behaviors are having a damaging impact. They don't put enough emphasis on setting expectations for manager behavior. Leaders need to ask, "Over the years that you have worked for this company, how often have you raised your hand to share an idea and been swatted down?" Optimize the talent you have! [38:21] If you run an organization with customer-facing people, you want to know how the customer is being treated. You should also want to know what experience your employees are having when they're interacting with your customers, and not assume that the customer is always right! Inclusion is understanding the day-to-day experience of all the employees that you currently have. [40:09] Dr. Cox has spent at least 10 years measuring employee experience, advising leaders about how to use data coming out of employee surveys. Respect is a concept that everybody understands. Nobody seems to know what belonging means. [40:49] Dr. Cox says leaders only need to ask three questions in a survey: Do you feel respected? What is it about your experience that makes you feel respected? Do you feel disrespected? What is it about your experience that makes you feel disrespected? What can we do to enhance your feelings of being respected? A three-question survey is as powerful as a long survey if you know what you're measuring. [42:25] Do not overcomplicate the issue. The only outcome that matters in this conversation is what are the experiences that employees are having and are they continuing to have good or bad experiences. What accounts for the variability between good and bad experiences, and what you can do as a leader, knowing and understanding that, to make these things a little more equitable and consistent? [43:39] Dr. Cox speaks of potential clients who ask her to talk about something and when it gets to a point where it's uncomfortable, they hadn't planned for the discomfort, and then rather than move forward through the discomfort, they back away and don't want to do the thing they should be doing. Dr. Cox is disappointed that some leaders haven't thought through what they believe. [44:34] On the plus side, while a lot of the things organizations are doing are destined not to have any impact when it comes to inclusion, more leaders are talking about these issues and are inching forward to a place where leaders can be engaged in trying to understand these issues rather than avoiding them. Dr. Cox is having these conversations more than ever before, even when some people are running away. [48:01] Dr. Cox's last thought: "I have a three Cs model. … Curiosity leads to Connection and that Curiosity and Connection are necessary in order to get to Comfort. Comfort, I think, is what we all seek." [49:03] Closing quote: Remember, "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." — Martin Luther King Jr. Quotable Quotes "While I call myself an organizational psychologist because that's my formal training, the secret that most people don't know is that a lot of the stuff that I talk about is stuff that I learned in the little … corner store just by observing my grandmother and her customers." "When I was growing up, I wanted to be a journalist. I didn't even think about psychology, And still to this day, when I see journalists covering all kinds of things around the world, I say, 'Gosh, I could do that. I can do that.'" "Dr. King taught us that whether we are talking about race, gender, LGBTQ+, ethnicity, neurodiversity, or other ways that humans naturally vary, we can't sit idly by and wait for others to provide the inclusion we seek. Each of us can help ourselves and others." "I talk about effective leadership to create situations where every single person … in an organization, feels that he or she, when they show up, have a chance to be able to put in the effort that is appropriate and get the same outcomes that would be expected." "Something about the emotion of this issue is causing people to fail to use problem-solving skills that they actually already possess." "Are you optimizing the talent that you already have? Most people will say, when I ask 'What is missing here about why I don't feel included?', it tends to fall into the category that 'I'm not seen, heard, or valued.'" "By inclusion, I simply mean understanding the day-to-day experience of all the employees that you currently have." "I remain eternally optimistic about all of this because of Gen Z and their willingness to speak for us, for everybody, about what that good human experience feels like." Resources Mentioned Theleadershippodcast.com Sponsored by: Darley.com Rafti Advisors. LLC Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC Gena Cox Gena Cox on LinkedIn Leading Inclusion: Drive Change Your Employees Can See and Feel, by Gena Cox, Ph.D. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "5 Strategies to infuse D&I into Your Organization," HBR