The Leadership Podcast

Stephen Drum, retired Navy SEAL master chief and author of "Life on the X: A Navy SEAL’s Guide to Meeting Any Challenge with Courage, Confidence, and Readiness", discusses the values and commitments necessary for effective leadership. This is Steve’s second time as a guest on The Leadership Podcast, and in this episode he discusses the importance of being authentic in one's values and purpose along with the significance of focusing on the basics to achieve success. The use of After Action Reviews (AARs) is also highlighted as a way to continuously improve performance by identifying opportunities for growth. Join us as we dive deeper into this conversation about leadership, feedback, and the application of military principles to business leadership.   Key Takeaways [04:26] Stephen Drum talks about the meaning behind the title of his book "Life on the X.” The X represents the critical point of execution on a combat mission, the most dangerous and difficult point. By preparing and training for this point, success can be achieved in less dangerous situations.  [06:38] The first section of the book discusses commitment, values, purpose, attributes, and character.  [09:53] Stephen believes leaders need to focus on the basics, being crystal clear on the desired end state and checking for comprehension. They caution against getting too caught up in technology and processes before identifying the necessary resources for a project or endeavor. [12:40] Stephen believes that brilliant basics consist of giving resources, setting clear expectations and accountability, and coaching depending on an individual's skills and experience. He also emphasizes the importance of contingency planning and emotional control.  [24:48] Stephen explains that the concept of After Action Reviews (AARs) depends on the position and organization, but some clients gravitate towards it while others are focused on the production and don't have time. Steve suggests making the process efficient and identifying opportunities to leverage the experience. Steve finds that clients embrace this approach. [27:20] During a meeting with a client, Stephen realized the client's note-taking gave him confidence they would follow through on the discussed actions. He believes taking notes is important in memorializing information and it helps people remember and take things seriously.  [30:30] Stephen also talks about the challenges of giving effective feedback. Research shows that feedback is often not as effective as we think because people tend to get defensive and blame others or misremember. As a leader, it's important to give future-focused, succinct feedback that only addresses things that can be changed.  [34:16] Stephen explains feedback in the military serves different purposes, such as accountability and documentation, but can also be used to replicate the stress of combat. The military also practices intrusive leadership, which involves getting into people's personal lives to provide support and resources.  [38:14] Stephen reflects on how in special operations, there are peaks and troughs, whereas in the business world, it's go time all the time, and without self-care, burnout is inevitable.  [40:55] People tend to push too hard and can't keep up that pace. Separating work and family can be healthy for some, but for others, it's better to have a more intense focus on work or other activities. In the military, there's no time off during a deployment, and even holidays are not completely free of work. In the business world, it's important to find ways to foster creativity and give employees a break from the grind of their daily work.  [42:29] Identify their next big moment or key opportunity and develop an architecture for success, which aligns with the theme of his book. [43:36] Closing quote: Remember, “You will never do anything in this world without courage. It is the greatest quality of the mind, next to honor. ” —  Aristotle   Quotable Quotes "As the leader, you have to be crystal clear on the desired end state." "We sometimes give into or fall prey to the allure of technology or certain sexy processes." "You're engaging more parts of your brain when you want to memorize something." "If it's serious and important enough, you're going to take the time to put pen to paper." "Feedback is not nearly as effective as you think it is, or that you need it to be." "If you're receiving feedback and it basically could be construed as negative or overly constructive, you're going to get defensive." "Identify what your next big moment or key opportunity is and figure out how you're going to develop the architecture for success." "A lot of people want to work from home, but for many people, it's healthy to have a separation, to go to work and be focused on that and then come home and focus just on that."  "The mind, body, soul is critical. The body piece, rest, nutrition, physical activity, how that contributes to emotions and cognitive ability." Resources Mentioned The Leadership Podcast | Sponsored by | Rafti Advisors. LLC | Self-Reliant Leadership. LLC | Stephen Drum | Stephen Drum on LinkedIn | Stephen Drum on Facebook | Stephen Drum on Instagram |

With his unique brand of edgy leadership, Dr. Todd Dewett is one of the most in-demand keynote speakers in the world, an internationally sought-after expert, a four-time TEDx speaker, and has been quoted in TIME, The New York Times, Bloomberg, Business Week, Forbes, CNN, and many more outlets. He is the author of “Dancing With Monsters, a Tale About Leadership, Success, and Overcoming Fears.” In this interview, Todd talks about the challenges of work including: facing our fears to build confidence; the generational challenges, boundaries, and when quitting should be considered. Listen in to hear how to deal with your mistakes, how to find “fit,” and the importance of outside counsel.       Key Takeaways   [1:56] Todd’s bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) Todd comes to The Leadership Podcast through a mutual friend, Dean Karrel; both are phenomenal LinkedIn Learning instructors. Todd and Jan share a publisher. [3:29] Todd is a proud father of two; a sophomore in high school and a sophomore in college. They’re the best thing he’s ever done. Todd and his wife are besties and business partners. She is going through a battle with cancer and they don’t know what’s going to happen. Todd strives to understand it and be useful to her as she tries to beat this thing. [5:25] Todd likes most to speak about universal experiences; to take a thing we all know and give it a fresh perspective. Wanting to quit is a universal experience. Is it bad or good? It depends. Giving up too easily is a problem for some people. But quitting isn’t simply bad. It can be strategically very useful. If something is not working out, it may be time to stop investing in it to invest in something better. [7:58] If fear is common at work it may be due to a poor culture or poor managers. But even in great work cultures, fear of what to say and how to act in a new situation is wired into us. We want to please people and be liked. Fear at work is an important topic to explore. Work is affecting people’s physical and mental health in ways that are not productive. We need to learn how to mitigate the experience of fear. [10:33] Fear can manifest as indecision. We walk through a large system of interlocking expectations from ourselves, our parents, our partners, our peers, our supervisors, others at work, and our family. We don’t always know how to navigate it successfully. Sometimes it’s indecision, sometimes it’s rash poor decision-making, and sometimes it’s overreaching. [11:03] What is the reasonable, measured way to deal with that normal anxiety we feel in the middle of all those expectations? Good coaching and some thought will get you through that. The real problem is people who haven’t done the work to narrow down the possibilities and don’t know what their career goal is at all so they defer the decision to someone else. [12:31] Todd delivered a TEDx talk at Texas A&M, long after his Ph.D. there. It was based on his experiences as an employee and a professor, that lots of people love to talk about creativity and innovation but the gap between the concepts and the practice of embracing them is enormous. When people innovate or tweak a process, they receive pushback and criticism. Change may be seen as a threat. [14:28] Confidence is both a personality trait and a skill that can be built over time. Todd recommends the repetition of engaging these risks and learning from them in an environment that is supportive of innovation. People like Todd have a job because much of what people do doesn’t naturally mesh with their environments. They don’t fit without some effort. [16:21] The pandemic accelerated thinking about these issues and it came at a time of a generational shift we’ve never seen. There are five generations represented in the workforce. The definition of success is slowly shifting toward what makes the employee happy and find purpose, more than what others think. [16:49] The Great Resignation and Quiet Quitting seem to support that shift. Millennials and Zs do have different professional values in terms of wanting to be a partner and be heard rather than being subordinate and following orders. They want more leisure but also want to feel more purpose than earlier generations. People respond fantastically well when they believe they are heard. [18:26] The key to “fit” is objectively getting the skills that you need to do the work you want to do, and finding people that you enjoy, no matter the thing you’re working on. The skills and the people both feed into your experience of “fit.” [19:36] Todd agrees that there is both a corporate responsibility and a personal responsibility to provide meaning to work. He says, “Never believe the simple narrative.” Millennials and Zs find it shocking that when starting a job, it is important to learn the norms, the rules, the expectations, and what it takes to be a top performer there, before demanding to be heard. It goes both ways. [22:19] People are aging out of the labor force faster than workers are entering it. Jobs have changed over the last 30 years. We lost many jobs and replaced them with service jobs. It may be harder to find purpose and alignment with a low-paying service job than it did with a high-paying manufacturing job. [23:54] No one’s perfect all the time. We have moods, moments, and external factors that impact us. Even on our best days, we’re imperfect. One of the themes in Dancing with Monsters is that “You’re wonderfully imperfect but still perfectly capable of doing amazing things.” Talk about it more than less. It leads to empathy, authenticity, and vulnerability. [24:21] The world of our fathers and grandfathers placed an uncrossable line between the personal and professional. There are some holes in the wall now, but it hasn’t come down. Humans want to have authentic human connections that are meaningfully fulfilling. But instead, we put on a polished, professional version of ourselves that we hope will keep us out of trouble and maybe even get us ahead. [25:04] You don’t have to hide. Most people through conversation can make teams meaningfully better. We need to be validated a little more, understood a little more, and be better listeners. We learn that everybody’s imperfect, and that’s OK. The key to great teams isn’t finding the best talent, but talent is still required. The key is chemistry and getting the best joint performance out of the people that you do have. [26:45] Leaders are sometimes going to go too far. It’s normal. What do they do to show vulnerability? Don’t run from it. Own that. If apologies or statements are needed, make them sooner than later. But first, assume you do not see yourself and the situation perfectly. Find people who have insights into what just happened and ask them for their insights. They see you differently than you see yourself. [27:25] Take time to think about a path forward for using the error to make yourself better. Todd shares a story of embarrassing himself as a young professional speaker by bombing onstage in front of thousands of people. He used it as an opportunity to check his emotions, step back, examine the things he did wrong, and make a plan to fix them and not repeat the same mistakes. He used it to make himself better. [29:02] Writing a monster story is unusual in the leadership space. It came from a mistake! Two years ago, for the third time, Todd wrote a novel, and “It was not good.” He is done trying to scratch that itch! The story involved a vampire in an office and he still loved the idea. After thinking about Patrick Lencioni and others, Todd got excited about a fable and started writing his book. Six hours later, he had the first draft. [30:49] Whatever your generation may be, the “more” that you search should be defined by you, whether it’s just about work, or larger issues in life, Todd still says, “More is always possible.” [32:32] Millennials and Zs have seen all kinds of financial adversity. No one understands success without understanding failure. Todd says he had so many big, fat, ugly failures in his career, it’s hilarious! If you have one or two moderate successes people think good things about you. It’s the halo effect. Todd loves talking about failures.   [35:02] Leaders want to be aspirational but sometimes don’t live the values. The gap between rhetoric and reality causes a massive cultural problem in organizations. Todd promotes more realism with high levels of candor and kindness. When employees make mistakes, discuss the mistakes with kindness and candor and admit your own mistakes. With kindness and candor, you can deal with reality a lot better. [37:27] We’re not great at understanding ourselves or others as much as we think we are. Outside counsel is essential in any success story, for sure! Growth starts when you leave your comfort zone. That’s just a truism. Allow your boss and allow yourself to push yourself, into areas that make you a little uncomfortable. That’s where growth comes from. [38:49] Todd’s closing thoughts: “Having what it takes to become an effective leader and finding success in your career, is not about what you’re born with, it’s about the skills that you build. And with the right effort and the right people around you, any of us can find those things and build those things. It is within our reach. I love sharing that with people.”  [39:37] Closing quote: Remember, “I have learned over the years that when one’s mind is made up, this diminishes fear; knowing what must be done does away with fear.” — Rosa Parks   Quotable Quotes “Proud father of two; I’ve got a sophomore in high school and a sophomore in college and they’re the best thing I’ve ever done, no matter how much I might talk about a book or a course.” “Lots of people, if not everyone, love to talk about creativity and innovation but the gap between the allure of those concepts and the practice of embracing them is enormous beyond words!” “We tend to see people respond … tremendously well when they believe they’re being listened to. … The research suggests that teams and organizations tend to respond a lot better.” “The key to ‘fit’ is objectively trying to go find the skills that you need to do the work that you want to do. That’s Part 1 but Part 2 really is finding people that you enjoy no matter the thing you’re working on.” “Most people through conversation can make teams meaningfully better. … We just need to be validated a little more, understood a little more, and be better listeners.” “The key to great teams isn’t finding the best talent, although talent, of course, must be present. The key is chemistry and getting the best interlocking performance out of the people that you do have. That’s chemistry, and it tends to be a better predictor of success than just base-level talent.” “Growth starts when you leave your comfort zone. … Allow your boss and allow yourself to push yourself, performance-wise, into areas that start to make you a little uncomfortable. That’s where growth comes from.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Vitaliy Katsenelson is the CEO and Chief Investment Officer of IMA and the author of three books. His most recent book is “Soul in the Game: The Art of a Meaningful Life.” Vitaliy was born in Murmansk, Russia, and immigrated to the United States with his family in 1991. In this interview, Vitaliy contrasts his experience growing up in the Soviet Union with his experience in the United States, and how different his mindset was in each place. He also discusses how Stoic philosophy has been very helpful. He discusses how his essay about Tchaikovsky aims to help others who may be struggling with creativity. Listen in for a vibrant discussion on intention, communication, and vulnerability.     Key Takeaways   [1:53] Vitaliy’s bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) [2:22] Vitaliy loves investing, writing, classical music, and spending time with his family, Vitaliy’s father is a fantastic artist and Vitaliy has a small gallery of his work. [3:49] How Vitaliy sees the differences between Murmansk, Russia, and Denver, Colorado. Denver has lots of sunshine. In the winter, Murmansk has a few minutes of sunshine a day. When Vitaliy lived there, it was Soviet Russia. Freedom of speech and the free market did not exist in Russia. All businesses were owned by the government. Here we have an abundance of food and a lack of scarcity. [6:56] Vitaliy shares thoughts on how Russians and Americans communicate. He read How to Win Friends and Influence People when he was 18 in Russia. He hated the book and felt it was teaching him how to be fake. He read it again 20 years later and was shocked by how brilliant it is. He is re-reading it with his 17-year-old daughter and she loves it. She has an American mindset. [8:06] When Vitaliy came to the U.S. he found that  Americans are very indirect and smile all the time, contrasted with Russians who are sometimes painfully direct. Vitaly was fired from his first American job. The man firing him was smiling at him, which was a confusing signal. Vitaly fine-tuned himself to a balance between directness and indirectness. He tries not to criticize people so his message is clearly received. [9:10] If Vitaliy has a criticism, he first tries to make sure to tell the person positive things.  Then he structures the criticism as constructive feedback. He learned that from Dale Carnegie and living in the U.S. for 30 years. Vitaliy says if he had continued to communicate in the Soviet Russian style, he could not have achieved anything in the U.S. [10:43] Vitaliy’s intentionality comes from the conscious choice to be mindful. To have a work/life balance you just have to be mindful about having the balance. Vitaliy knew he wanted to be a good father to his children. He made a mindful choice to spend more time with his children. He chooses to drive his children to school before going to work on a busy day. [12:38] Vitaliy has a value to be a good father. To live up to the value he has to be mindful about being with his children. If he just went on autopilot, he would just default to the easiest things to do which for him is working 10-hour and 12-hour days. To be mindful, he stops after eight hours. When he gets home and has dinner with his kids, he’s not looking at his phone. He’s present with them, giving them attention. [14:26] To live a meaningful life, figure out exactly what you value and spend your time according to your values. [15:32] Vitaliy sees value in simplicity. [16:50] As Vitaliy was working on the last chapter of his book, he put it on pause to study and write on Stoicism. He studied Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, and Seneca. Epictetus taught a framework that some things are up to you and some things aren’t. What is up to you are your values and how you behave. Everything else is external and is not up to you. Don’t try to control what is out of your control. [19:03] Vitaliy’s 17-year-old daughter just got her first job at a coffee shop. She finds a co-worker annoying. Vitaliy asked her if she expected every co-worker to be perfect. It’s not up to you how other people are. Vitaliy finds this framework to be simple and elegant; if you embrace the Stoic philosophy it will reduce the volatility and negativity in your life. [20:27] When he learned Stoic philosophy, Vtaliy realized he had made choices in the past unconsciously that were aligned with Stoic philosophy. Adopting Stoic philosophy intentionally has changed his life. He wrote that section of the book as much for himself as for the reader. [21:51] Every three to four months, Vitaliy sends his clients a 30-page letter in a story-telling format. As an experiment, once he sent the letter in a condensed format of brief bullet points. Eighty percent of his clients preferred the long letter. It was easier for them to read in stories than in bullet points. [23:33] You want to be very careful on the receiving side of storytelling and people who are terrific speakers. They appeal to your emotions. Stoics break down the message to its bare bones, to the bullet points. There is a conflict between Stoics and Sophists. Vitaliy acknowledges he is a Sophist in storytelling. At the same time, his values are Stoic. Sophists hijack the message and they may not have good values. [24:56] When Vitaliy encounters terrific communicators, he is very cautious to make sure the way they communicate does not impact his decision-making. [26:17] Music is an incredibly important part of Vitaliy’s life. He has written essays on the music that was important to him at any year of his life. Vitaly gets up every day at 4:30 or 5:00 and writes for two hours while listening to classical music in his headphones. Those two hours every day are very special to Vitaliy. Listening to classical music while he writes has helped his creativity tremendously. [28:07] Vitaliy’s kids made him appreciate chess. It’s one of the few games he likes playing with them. His daughter invited him to play after watching The Queen’s Gambit. After a game, they review the moves, trying to find the solution for the best move possible at any point. It makes an intellectually honest discussion. Jan notes it’s like a military after-action review (AAR). Both become better players. [30:34] Writing music is a very creative activity. When you listen to classical music, think about how difficult it was for the composer to write it. Tchaikovsky left behind many letters to his brother and his friends. His letters describe how he struggled to compose his music. Vitaliy’s book came about because he had been writing an essay about one of Tchaikovsky’s pieces of music. [31:45] Vitaliy read Tchaikovsky’s letters and realized that the suffering the composer went through was so similar to the suffering Vitaliy goes through as a writer. He wrote an essay comparing the struggles of Tchaikovsky to the struggles a creative writer goes through. [32:11] When Vitaliy finished the essay, he realized other struggling writers could be helped by reading it. Over the years, he had written many essays that could help others. So he put them together in a book. [32:45] When you study the lives of composers, you listen to music very differently. You feel the pain they felt as they were writing. You realize that you will have some very difficult times creating, and as long as you love writing, pain is just part of the journey. The lives of the composers made Vitaliy appreciate classical music so much more. There is an incredible amount of hard work, pain, and struggle in creativity. [34:52] Vitaliy finds that parenting and leadership have parallels. But leadership mistakes don’t haunt you for the rest of your life! Vitality exposes his kids to new things all the time. They watch YouTube videos on various subjects. He introduces them to new books all the time. They discuss different topics and he doesn’t talk down to them. He is interested to know what they think. [35:56] As a parent and as a leader, it’s important to be vulnerable. You admit that you don’t have all the answers. When you communicate, spend most of the time in the scientist mode. Whatever you’re looking at is a theory. You are trying to discover truth. [36:59] When you make a mistake you admit it. Then your employees will be more comfortable admitting they made mistakes as well. [37:45] Vitaliy shares a link where you can hear his podcasts and read his articles.  [38:23] Closing quote: Remember, “Do not act as if you had 10,000 years to throw away. Death stands at your elbow. Be good for something while you live and it is in your power.” — Marcus Aurelius   Quotable Quotes “If you insult a person first and then you give them a message, that message will never arrive.” “My daughter and I are reading [How to Win Friends and Influence People] together … and she loves the book!” “Being around your kids while you are reading Financial Times on your iPhone is not being around your kids. Attention is a currency of time. So it’s when I give them that attention, when I’m present, that’s very, very important.” “There is so much value in simplicity.”  “If you waste your energy trying to control things that are not up to you, you’re going to have one miserable life. You’re going to have this emotional rollercoaster of being upset.” “I would argue that if you embraced Stoic philosophy, what it does, it would just reduce the volatility; it would reduce negativity in your life. And by reducing negativity, it’s going to make your life calmer; more peaceful.” “Listening to classical music when I write has helped my creativity tremendously. Studies were done on the subject. And they … showed that when you listen to music, … it forces your left brain and right brain to work at the same time. It basically increases your creativity.” “I have found that there are a lot of parallels between being a parent and being a leader … [but] I guess if you screw up as a leader those mistakes don’t haunt you for the rest of your life.” “When you study the lives of composers, … you’re going to start listening to music very differently. You’re going to feel the pain Tchaikovsky felt when he was writing. … You’re going to appreciate as a creator that at times you’re going to have a very difficult time creating.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:   Vitaliy Katsenelson Vitaliy Katsenelson is CEO and Chief Investment Officer of IMA and the author of Soul in the Game: The Art of a Meaningful Life. Vitaliy was born in Murmansk, Russia, and immigrated to the United States with his family in 1991. After joining Denver-based investment firm IMA in 1997, Vitaliy became Chief Investment Officer in 2007 and CEO in 2012. He’s an award-winning writer with two books on investing and countless articles in publications such as The Financial Times and Barron’s. Vitaliy lives in Denver with his wife and three kids where he loves to read, listen to classical music, play chess, and write about life, investing, and music. Soul in the Game is his third book and his first non-investing book.

Steve House is Founder of Uphill Athlete and a proudly retired professional climber and mountain guide. Jan has known him for years. For 21 years, Steve was a professional climber. In 1999 he became only the ninth American to achieve IFMGA certification, which is the highest level to guide all over the world. He has guided trips all across the world. In this discussion, Steve shares his journey from mountain sports to high-altitude climbing, to a nearly fatal fall, to coaching. Besides coaching mountain athletes, his current challenge is getting his pilot’s license. Steve talks about the purposes of mountain sports and how separation from daily distractions while moving your body through nature guides you on your journey.     Key Takeaways   [1:53] Jan shares Steve’s bio. (See at the end of the show notes.) [4:19] Steve thanks Jan and Jim for the invitation to The Leadership Podcast. As a professional athlete, there’s not much that’s not in his public bio. He’s almost a private pilot and is less than a month from taking his final practical exam. He describes a recent incredible flight and the energy flying gives him. [7:09] When Steve was 20, he was studying in college to be an aeronautical engineer. Then he got hijacked by climbing. Now he has the chance to come back and do something he has always loved. [8:17] In 2010, Steve was doing a training climb preparing for an expedition to do a new route on the west face of K2 with an expert fellow climber. He had a bad fall of around 100 feet. He broke 24 ribs. Two ribs were smashed into innumerable pieces. He had multiple pelvis fractures, knocked all the spinal processes off his vertebrae, and had many internal injuries. [9:18] Steve lay on his back for about two hours. He knew he had hemopneumothorax. His breathing grew shallow as his chest cavity filled with blood. What came out of that was a lot of self-reflection. He had to come to terms with his drive to become the very best at what he did. That was his mission statement. [10:45] As Steve reflected, at age 39, he was trying to figure out if he would function again. He had to think about what his values were, and what he cared about and wanted to do. Was it time to change his mission statement? He hadn’t accomplished everything in climbing but he decided he had accomplished enough. He could be proud of what he did do, and he was going to pivot to other values and other goals. [11:57] In elite sports, you’re boxed off from the world. You eat, sleep, train, and go climb. You save all your energy to be better. It’s how you achieve individual greatness. But you’re not part of a team. Steve saw his crisis as a time to reflect and redirect. [13:48] Steve thinks that due to the intensity with which he pursued his goals, he required an intense jolt to trigger reflection. Anything less wasn’t going to work. He notes that most of the people he climbed with are dead. That’s how risky and dangerous climbing is. Steve has only a handful of friends from that era that are still alive. Steve realized he was going to join those who were no longer alive if he continued. [15:29] As a mountain sports trainer, Steve is in a position to help athletes get past the binary narrative of success or failure. There’s a much greater range of possible experiences. We have often seen that the one that came in first cheated or used performance-enhancing substances. The whole paradigm is broken. There is another way to experience sports. Mountain sports do not have a history of competition. [17:02] Steve would tell his younger self he was always going to feel like an imposter, and that was completely OK, and that everybody else does, too. That feeling was one of the things that were hardest for him to overcome. It goes back to childhood. He was the scrawny little kid that wasn’t good at sports. [18:49] One of the things that Steve learned from childhood was grit. He loved gritty experiences from a very early age. When he was 10, he backpacked his first 50-mile hike. When he was 11, he climbed Mount Hood. These were just things they did as a family or with his father. He enjoyed it. [20:37] Steve and his Uphill Athlete team talk about Campbell’s Hero’s Journey paradigm and try to figure out what step their client is on for that journey. The goal is to help them through that one step. Everyone is on the same journey, at a different step. [23:22] Uphill Athlete doesn’t exist to motivate people but to educate and inspire. Coaching is education and teaching people how they can apply endurance training methodologies and see the changes in their bodies. It takes a couple of months for people to get fully bought in and see their progress. When they get to that epiphany, they are committed to the journey for life and remain in the Uphill Athlete community. [25:17] Going back to the imposter syndrome, Steve is often surprised that he knows the answer. And the only reason he can know the answer is because he lived it through 20 years of being an athlete. These are things you cannot learn in a physiology textbook. [26:05] What holds people back is their minds, their fears, their insecurities, and the pieces that they don’t understand, or can’t conceptualize well. Those are the questions Steven can clear up easily, but he is always surprised. [27:37] Steve tried to teach a man with a Ph.D. in exercise physiology how to coach but it was impossible because he didn’t understand what it felt like in his body to do what was written on the training plan. He couldn’t relate to the people even though he’d run circles around everybody on the science. [28:27] When Steve interviews people to be coaches, he’s looking for people who have a unique superpower. He doesn’t need 15 people that all know the same thing. He needs people that have different backgrounds and experiences and are willing and eager to share with other people and also learn from them. They have to be far enough along on their journey that they can take feedback constructively. [29:17] When you have a team that can do all of those things, it’s incredible. Steve’s team includes physical therapists, medical doctors, masters in high altitude physiology, and coaches that have coached every endurance sport you can imagine. They have great energy between them. [30:29] Some people Steven hires have well-defined superpowers. Some younger people don’t know their superpower. Steven describes how he leverages coaches to develop the superpower in people within a relationship that is entirely a safe place for them to ask those “dumb questions.” [33:39] Steve has a lot of athletes that do not have a set goal. They want to learn and experience and be in a community of like-minded people. Steve tells them it’s OK not to have an Everest goal. Sometimes it’s enough to engage with people as you learn. [36:10] Arthur Brooks’s new book, From Strength to Strength, is about finding clarity in the second chapter of life. [36:47] Steve uses the phrase, “naming the uncertainty.” Write down what you don’t know. Let that sit. People come back to him in a month and say it was great to let that sink in. There are more than two chapters for a lot of people. [37:38] Mountain sports have an important role to play in people’s journeys. Being in the wilderness in small teams and overcoming obstacles lets the noise go away. So much more happens out there than we give it credit for. People are not getting pings out there moving their bodies through nature and letting their subconscious minds do the work. Steve has solved writer’s block many times with a long walk. [43:52] Steven’s final thought: “It’s joyful to learn something. It’s joyful to become fitter. It’s joyful to climb a mountain. … Walking up a summit ridge and standing on top of a mountain is ultimately no different than walking into the grocery store and going to the cereal aisle. But what is different is if you’ve been to the top of the mountain, you have an appreciation for all the rest.” [45:34] Closing quote: Remember, “People say, ‘Are you insane?’ But the most successful climbers are the most calculating, with the most refined sense of risk. They’re hyper-conscious of safety. They’re the least insane people I know.” — Jimmy Chin   Quotable Quotes “I’m almost a private pilot. … I’m less than a month away. … I just had an amazing flight. … I flew from Slovenia down into Croatia, landed on an island, … flew back to Slovenia, landed … in the mountains in Slovenia, Took off from there, and returned to the home airport.” “[After a difficult accomplishment], at the end of the day, you just feel so full of energy and experience and awe.” “In 2010, I was doing a training climb. I was preparing for an expedition to climb a new route, … and … I fell around 100 feet. I broke 24 ribs, … I had multiple pelvis fractures, … [and] internal injuries. … I lay there for about two hours. I had a hemopneumothorax.” “We don’t always need a crisis. Sometimes it just takes a long walk in the woods. But I think that reassessing our values and making sure that they align with our purpose and our mission is probably something that all of us have to do many times throughout our lives.”  “This whole thing of like, ‘If you’re not first, you’re last,’ invalidates pretty much everyone’s  experience except one person’s.” “I loved gritty experiences from a very early age.” “I’m often surprised that I know the answer. And the only reason I can know the answer is because I lived it through 20 years of being an athlete. These are things you cannot learn in a physiology textbook.” “I’ve written four books now and I can’t tell you how many times writer’s block has just been solved by a long walk — and with no purpose. A walk with no purpose.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: (Golden Ice Ace)     Steve House Bio For 21 years, Steve was a professional climber. His most famous ascent was with Vince Anderson. They did the central pillar of the Rupal Face and won the Piolet d’Or (Golden Ice Axe). Steve has done first ascents and new routes in Alaska, the Rockies, and the Alps, and is a famed climber. Renowned mountaineer Reinhold Messner called him the best high-altitude climber in the world. He’s been an ambassador athlete for Patagonia, Grivola, Sportiva, Zeal Optics, and Coros Watches. Steve retired from professional climbing at the end of 2020 to dedicate himself to his family and Uphill Athlete. He currently lives in Austria with his Wife Eva and two sons. Steve has been a professional mountain guide since 1992. In 1999, he became only the ninth American to achieve IFMGA certification, which is the highest level to guide all over the world. There are less than 200 certified in the U.S. to this day. He has guided trips across the world.

Gena Cox, Ph.D. discusses her new book that provides powerful insights for leaders to drive inclusion: “Leading Inclusion: Drive Change Your Employees Can See and Feel.” In this conversation, Gena stresses the value of human relationships, and how organizations have vast opportunities to optimize the human experiences for their employees. Gena reveals how a system that doesn’t embrace inclusion will lose employees who don’t feel included. Listen in for how curiosity can help your team feel even more connected.     Key Takeaways   [2:00] Dr. Cox tells how she is the luckiest person in the world. Her grandmother had a grade school education but was an entrepreneurial wizard. From watching her grandmother grow her neighborhood store, Gena learned the value of the human relationship in terms of getting things done. Gena’s secret is that much of what she talks about comes from observing her grandmother and her customers. [2:56] When Dr. Cox was growing up, she wanted to be a journalist. She still sees journalists covering things around the world and imagines herself doing that. She supposes that journalists, like others, have a big “why” about how they can make the world better that lets them keep going. [4:22] Dr. Cox has been trained not to make assertions without evidence to support the assertions. She had known for a long time about the importance of respect. But it wasn’t until the summer of 2020 when she interviewed leaders and surveyed employees about what they think leaders don’t understand about inclusion, black employees said they felt leaders were distancing themselves and avoiding them. [5:54] When Dr. Cox did the content analysis to see the themes emerging from those comments, she came up with the word “respect.” These comments were all about things where people wanted to be seen, heard, and valued. [7:07] It is important not to just think about these issues in the present, but to look centuries back. In our country, there are social dynamics that have existed for generations within a community where there are significant power imbalances. These imbalances correlate with race, ethnicity, and socioeconomics. Ignoring those factors can lead to misunderstanding the experience of employees from those places. [8:21] Dr. Cox wrote one chapter about history at the beginning of her book. It makes a difference if leaders understand the broader context before they try to address specific initiatives or priorities in their organizations because they might miss the mark, otherwise. [9:19] Dr. Cox works with leaders on inclusion and with individuals to think about how they can be the best that they desire to be. It takes two sides of this equation to tango to get the outcomes that we desire. Dr. Cox shares a case of a client feeling discriminated against in their career progress. Dr. Cox suggested they look for what they could do to get past the barrier and jump the hurdle. [10:28] Dr. Cox offers three ideas that can help each of us make that difference for ourselves. 1. Have a big “why” for what kind of influence and impact you desire to have. 2. Have a track where you are working on custom master classes. Learn as much as you can that will help you get to your goal. 3. Amplify and brand yourself within our job. Dress and behave for the job you want. [11:53] If your current job does not allow you to do all that, you might have to do it on a parallel track and keep it moving until you can use what you learn to move forward overall. [14:06] Dr. Cox thinks there is a lot of misinterpretation and reinterpretation that takes place about leaders like Martin Luther King. Dr. Cox does not talk a lot about what specific people have said. Some people hearing a quote may miss the main idea. Inclusion tops diversity. It’s not just about getting more representation of a particular group. DE&I is really effective leadership of 100% of employees. [16:38] Dr. Cox talks about effective leadership to create situations where every single person in a team, group, or organization feels that he or she can put in the appropriate efforts and get the expected outcomes. We all have to have a part in making that happen, especially managers. [17:49] After George Floyd was killed, corporations started offering implicit bias training and hiring Chief Diversity Officers. Those two solutions are just tactics. They need to be added to a strategy that says “Here is what we are solving for.” [18:34] The most important thing leaders can do to minimize the risk of doing things that are not effective is to start by talking to employees about what is their day-to-day experience. Then they will tell you what you should focus on first. [19:20] Dr. Cox would like leaders to attach fewer restrictions to the research-based insights, such as the size of the survey group. The research is too new to be buttoned down. Dr. Cox points to the value of qualitative data or the stories that people tell in this area. These stories haven’t been told before so leaders don’t understand the solutions they should implement. [21:28] Dr. Cox asked about three years ago in a LinkedIn article why, with regard to DE&I, organizations are not utilizing the same strategy and problem-solving techniques that they apply to every other problem. Because of the emotional component, including fear and anxiety, about the topic, leaders are failing to use the same kinds of judgment skills that they might have used for something else. [22:22] What research have you done? Have you gone to a solution without research or understanding what’s going on so that your actions might work? Are you just throwing a dart at a board and hoping that something will stick? You would never do that if you were implementing a new initiative to support your customers or clients because you would know how high the risk would be. [23:18] The number one topic on the minds of boards of directors and leaders today, apart from making money, is talent. Under talent is the shortage of talent.  Why is there a shortage of talent? People come up with a variety of explanations. The data Dr. Cox sees is that there is a significant portion of the workforce that feels alienated from their leaders and colleagues and dissatisfied. [24:31] The latest research says that 50% of Black American employees say that they are thinking about or preparing themselves to leave their current job. There has been more data over the past couple of years because of the pandemic. [24:55] Dr. Cox asks leaders to think about why there is so much dissatisfaction and whether it is true in their organization. If so, what are the elements in their organization that could be causing it? If not true, what could they learn about it? They’re about to have this problem. What can they do to make it better for employees? [25:26] This leads to conversations about compensation, speaking up, well-being, mental health, and a variety of issues that should be at the tip of the spear. [26:31] Rehumanizing the workplace means emphasizing the idea that effective leadership is a pie chart. There’s a piece for task performance and a piece for human performance. All the outcomes organizations are driving to achieve have a human component. [28:23] Leaders are telling employees to “come back to the office and do it this way,” instead of considering alternative ways to work. There’s a significant gap between what employees desire and what the leaders at the top think employees desire. Rehumanizing the workplace means connecting with the employees. [32:50] Dr. Cox doesn’t want to believe that with MBA programs costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, organizations aren’t focusing on the human experience. But she believes they are not focusing sufficiently on the human experience. The management of humans has not been balanced with task performance. Dr. Cox wants to do away with the term “soft skills” which are understood to be less than “hard skills.” [34:40] In an HBR article, “5 Strategies to Infuse D&I into Your Organization,” Dr. Cox writes about mitigating implicit bias at the systemic level. It involves looking at data the organization has about existing patterns within the organization of selection, promotion, career mobility, and visibility of people who have a variety of characteristics. [36:15] Leaders often think they are leading organizations where things are better than employees might imply that they are. Diversity is not just hiring diverse people. If new employees walk into situations where the environment is not ready for them or receptive to them, they are not going to stay. It’s important for you to figure out, “What does it feel like to work in my organization every day?” [37:15] Leaders don’t know how their managers behave, day-to-day, or recognize how often those behaviors are having a damaging impact. They don’t put enough emphasis on setting expectations for manager behavior. Leaders need to ask, “Over the years that you have worked for this company, how often have you raised your hand to share an idea and been swatted down?” Optimize the talent you have! [38:21] If you run an organization with customer-facing people, you want to know how the customer is being treated. You should also want to know what experience your employees are having when they’re interacting with your customers, and not assume that the customer is always right! Inclusion is understanding the day-to-day experience of all the employees that you currently have. [40:09] Dr. Cox has spent at least 10 years measuring employee experience, advising leaders about how to use data coming out of employee surveys. Respect is a concept that everybody understands. Nobody seems to know what belonging means. [40:49] Dr. Cox says leaders only need to ask three questions in a survey: Do you feel respected? What is it about your experience that makes you feel respected? Do you feel disrespected? What is it about your experience that makes you feel disrespected? What can we do to enhance your feelings of being respected? A three-question survey is as powerful as a long survey if you know what you’re measuring. [42:25] Do not overcomplicate the issue. The only outcome that matters in this conversation is what are the experiences that employees are having and are they continuing to have good or bad experiences. What accounts for the variability between good and bad experiences, and what you can do as a leader, knowing and understanding that, to make these things a little more equitable and consistent? [43:39] Dr. Cox speaks of potential clients who ask her to talk about something and when it gets to a point where it’s uncomfortable, they hadn’t planned for the discomfort, and then rather than move forward through the discomfort, they back away and don’t want to do the thing they should be doing. Dr. Cox is disappointed that some leaders haven’t thought through what they believe. [44:34] On the plus side, while a lot of the things organizations are doing are destined not to have any impact when it comes to inclusion, more leaders are talking about these issues and are inching forward to a place where leaders can be engaged in trying to understand these issues rather than avoiding them. Dr. Cox is having these conversations more than ever before, even when some people are running away. [48:01] Dr. Cox’s last thought: “I have a three Cs model. … Curiosity leads to Connection and that Curiosity and Connection are necessary in order to get to Comfort. Comfort, I think, is what we all seek.” [49:03] Closing quote: Remember, “Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see.” — Martin Luther King Jr.   Quotable Quotes “While I call myself an organizational psychologist because that’s my formal training, the secret that most people don’t know is that a lot of the stuff that I talk about is stuff that I learned in the little … corner store just by observing my grandmother and her customers.” “When I was growing up, I wanted to be a journalist. I didn’t even think about psychology, And still to this day, when I see journalists covering all kinds of things around the world, I say, ‘Gosh, I could do that. I can do that.’” “Dr. King taught us that whether we are talking about race, gender, LGBTQ+, ethnicity, neurodiversity, or other ways that humans naturally vary, we can’t sit idly by and wait for others to provide the inclusion we seek. Each of us can help ourselves and others.” “I talk about effective leadership to create situations where every single person … in an organization, feels that he or she, when they show up, have a chance to be able to put in the effort that is appropriate and get the same outcomes that would be expected.” “Something about the emotion of this issue is causing people to fail to use problem-solving skills that they actually already possess.” “Are you optimizing the talent that you already have? Most people will say, when I ask ‘What is missing here about why I don’t feel included?’, it tends to fall into the category that ‘I’m not seen, heard, or valued.’” “By inclusion, I simply mean understanding the day-to-day experience of all the employees that you currently have.” “I remain eternally optimistic about all of this because of Gen Z and their willingness to speak for us, for everybody, about what that good human experience feels like.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Charlotte Allen is the Founder and CEO of Rebel Success for Leaders. In today’s turbulent environment that demands new levels of collaboration, Charlotte works to create a world where change is fun and innovations are successful. She has over 20 years of leadership experience and is a best-selling author. Her latest book is “Rebel Success for Leaders: Lead, Grow, and Sell Fearlessly.” Charlotte brings clarity to topics including change, project failure, competing priorities, customer-centricity, and what being a rebel brings to leadership. Listen in for insights about STEM experts, influence, collaboration, and success.     Key Takeaways   [1:49] Charlotte tore her ACL in a ski accident a year ago in 2022. After a lot of physical therapy, she got back on the slopes a year later, to the day. [3:01] Charlotte explains why 70% of business change and innovation projects fail. People tend to have an aversion to change of any kind. We power through it, hoping it’ll be over soon, without focusing on the vision of what we want it to be and how to get there. [4:39] Change and innovation each bring something new into the world but innovation has a positive aura around it. It’s the warm, fuzzy bunny version of change. But the number of innovation projects that get to market is not that different from the number of successful change projects. [6:11] Failure is an important thing to describe. When we launch an initiative within a corporation, we often have organizational fallout. Parts of the organization did not get the communication. Parts are not happy. Some employees are asked to leave as a result of the change initiative. The failed initiative may get repeated. KPIs for initiatives need to be set up in a way we can measure them. [8:46] If the leadership is not clear on where the team is going, there will be a challenge to success. If there is no clarity within the team about how to operate, communicate, and work together, there’s going to be a problem with success. We are extremely driven by tools, metrics, and the latest model, without looking at how people are unable to deliver their best work within the boundaries leaders put them in. [10:10] Competing priorities, the squirrel syndrome, and siloed departments lead to failed projects. [11:21] Charlotte discusses the problems that complexity brings. Complexity is not a friend of successful change. [12:53] STEM people in an organization are not getting the same amount of training and leadership development as the sales team, but they are the experts expected to lead change initiatives. They need to learn two languages, the language of deep experts and the language of change, leadership, and development. But not everybody wants to be in every chair on an org chart. [17:45] There is a large predisposition in STEM workers to get into their work, which they are very good at. They come to a time in their career when they wish they had had more exposure to business elements. Folks that can do the translation between deep expertise and business are unique. We need to be searching for them, training them, and putting them into positions where they can lead. [19:58] Publicly-traded companies have to report out; metrics, KPIs, and spreadsheets are a required part of business. [20:26] In 2023, Charlotte believes leaders will spend more time with, invest in, and develop their people. These efforts can result in fewer people leaving and have positive effects on efficiency and employee satisfaction and engagement. Leaders are seeing that, partly because of changes during the pandemic. There is a large social movement for building community. You don’t build community with spreadsheets. [23:01] Comfort is the enemy of progress. People stay in a toxic environment because it’s a known job, and change is more frightening. There are so many other options out there. You, as a person, have gifts beyond what you are currently delivering. If you are in a toxic environment, there is no way that you can perform at your best. [24:53] About being a rebel: if not doing something will not get you fired, then consider it. If not doing something, or doing something, is going to get you fired, think hard about that particular action. Charlotte chose the book title Rebel Success For Leaders for a reason. She has always been able to do two important things: drive a path out of complexity and translate among dissimilar groups, such as silos. [25:47] Charlotte learned that you need to be unique, having the thing that only you can deliver to your business or your professional life. That is your rebel. You need to connect that with market success, timeline success, or the solution you need to deliver to the bottom line. In business, we spend most of the time on the success part, little time on the rebel part, and almost no time on connecting the two parts. [27:38] Success comes from a framework more than a recipe. A recipe is a precise pattern. A framework includes the key parts of a structure that allows you to change and operate within with enough of a scaffolding that you’re not going to freefall. The Forbes HR Council published an article in 2022 that said we are at a global deficit of leaders in every area who are good at change leadership. [29:00] Forbes identified five abilities leaders need to excel at — adaptability, agility, innovation, collaboration, and customer-centricity. Think of these five skills as the scaffolding. How do you have enough mobility within that to move forward and be good at change regardless of the situation? [30:42] Charlotte discusses customer-centricity in the area of STEM. She tells STEM technical experts that every person they interact with is their customer. “You are trying to influence them with your expertise and you are trying to change their behavior because of the advice and expertise you are giving them. So they are your customer. I am your customer because I am your boss, your leader, your manager.” [31:55] That was effective because deep experts tend to speak a lot of “deep expert.” They are used to being the ones that everyone turns to for the answer. They give details. What they rarely do is build a relationship, ask what your problems are, or try to understand your position. When you get an expert to think in a customer-centric way, it tweaks their brain just enough to think in terms of the relationship. [32:54] This gets them listening, looking for common ground, and communicating. They will deliver their expertise in a customer-centric framework. Customer-centricity is the human connection. [35:59] Collaboration is when two people decide to work together for a common goal to achieve a certain output. That is another word that is tossed around by organizations all the time. Not all group activity is collaboration. You must be working for a common goal and a certain output. [37:59] The curiosity of a technical person, when not guided appropriately in interpersonal interactions, tends to be off-putting and feels like an interrogation. When you put the seed in their brain that this is a customer, it starts to affect that conversation in a more positive way. [39:18] Charlotte’s challenge: “My challenge this year to everyone that I connect with is to think about how change can be fun. … I don’t always want it when it shows up at my door but I usually am very excited about it from that space of curiosity. And change can be a lot of fun once you have that framework that helps you guide your actions and your stability and that sense of comfort that you need a little bit of.” [40:28] Closing quote: Remember, “We will always have STEM with us. Some things will drop out of the public eye and will go away, but there will always be science, engineering, and technology. And there will always, always be mathematics.” —   Quotable Quotes “Failure is an important thing to describe. … When we launch an initiative within a corporation, we often have organizational fallout. There are parts of the organization that did not get the communication; parts that are not happy.” “Complexity is not a friend of successful change.” “We all have passion for the work that we do. A lot of folks in that STEM space have a really deep passion for the work that they’re doing for making a difference, for providing those solutions for their organizations and for the customer base that they support and work for.” “Not everybody wants to be in every chair on an org chart. When you find those folks who have the desire and the development opportunities to move spots, then I think there’s really no difference between a STEM person and a salesperson or a CEO, at the end of the day.” “There are so many other options out there. … You, as a person, have gifts beyond what you are currently delivering. And if you are in [a] toxic environment, there is no way that you can perform at your best.” “The customer-centricity, I honestly believe, is that human connection piece that we are all glossing over.” “Collaboration is when two people decide to work together for a common goal to achieve a certain output. That is another word that is tossed around organizations all the time.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Sarah Wirth is President of Ecsell Institute, and co-author of the best-selling book, The Coaching Effect. Her life passion is understanding what makes people tick. Sarah has spent the last two decades researching, writing, and teaching about what the best leaders do differently. In this interview, Sarah starts the conversation with her affinity for pop culture and the lessons for leadership she finds in movies. She tells how Ecsell Institute started as training for sales leaders and expanded into helping leaders in other areas. Sarah and her team gather and analyze survey data to help leaders improve the performance of their organizations by improving their coaching.     Key Takeaways   [2:02] Sarah’s team members say she is a pop-culture guru. She likes movies, TV, books, and music, and she likes to find leadership lessons in them. She did a series on looking for leadership lessons in movies. [2:28] Past guest Dean DiSibio wrote Reel Lessons in Leadership, where he talks about leadership lessons from movies. [3:12] Sarah picks Moneyball as a movie with leadership lessons. The character Brad Pitt plays is trying to lead his team in a different direction and lead it differently than anyone has ever led a baseball team. Jan likes Blues Brothers but would pick Succession (TV show). Jim would pick Ted Lasso (TV show). [6:08] Jan and Jim once asked past guests, “How do you measure leader effectiveness?” That is the purpose of Ecsell Institute. They go to the people that are being led to measure leader effectiveness. Then they compare the results with measurable goals for that position and what the leaders are doing to reach the goals. [7:25] Ecsell Institute looks at leaders that are achieving their goals versus leaders that are not. Then they look at how those leaders are leading differently, according to their team members. That gives Ecsell Institute an understanding of the behaviors of successful leaders. [8:58] The Ecsell questions are behaviorally-based. For example, “When you have your one-to-one meetings, does your leader have you define action steps coming out of them? How often?” They are trying to find leadership behaviors to give recommendations to help others become better leaders. People can learn behaviors to emulate. [11:57] Part of the evaluation is outcome-variable questions, such as whether you see yourself working here a year from now. How happy are you in your job? How much do you trust your leader? Would you recommend your team as a great team to work with? Sarah tells how transparency in sharing the information behind the decisions made has a huge impact on trust. [13:37] The Coaching Effects Leadership Survey is consistent in terms of what it measures. How it applies to an organization is something Ecsell has a conversation about with the organization, in particular, how specific leadership traits fit into the company culture. [15:06] Communication and transparency from Ecsell are key to getting employees to trust the survey and how it works. There is even a final question that is not reported to the client, “On a scale of one to 10, how honest were you in giving your responses to these questions?” Some respondents will put a five, especially in low-trust environments. [17:39] Sarah recommends the Coaching Effects Survey for choosing which leaders to invest in. The high-rated leaders are the ones who are interested in being great at what they do. They are passionate about being good leaders. They’re the ones who want to learn more and improve. Others may have more room for improvement but high-performing leaders have more potential for improvement. [19:42] A lot of times people get promoted into leadership opportunities because they were good individual performers. Sarah talks to the newly promoted leader and to their manager to understand, does this person have leadership capability? It’s a different skill set. You might get an underperforming manager while losing a great performer. [20:40] Sarah recommends that managers ask their team members before promoting them, what is it that interests them about being a leader. If they talk about enjoying coaching and mentoring their peers, and helping others achieve success, that shows they are likely to have an aptitude for leadership. If they just want to move up or make more money, that doesn’t indicate an aptitude for leadership. [22:35] Ecsell was founded to work with sales leaders. It expanded as clients wanted to apply the concepts to other leaders in their organizations. Sarah explains how sales leadership differs from other corporate areas. Salespeople are the athletes of the corporate world. They have to perform all the time. Their performance is measured differently. They have emotional highs and lows. They need coaching. [23:50] If you have a sales coach that does not manage the salespersons as much on the emotional level as on the task level, you’re going to lose out on so many opportunities to help salespeople perform. [24:07] Past guest Dan Pink made the point that salespeople are not motivated by money but by winning. Money is how they keep score. Sarah agrees with this. In an 18-month sales cycle, we have to find different ways to tap into that motivation to perform. A good coach can do that. The monetary goals alone will not drive the behavior. [25:21] Sarah believes it’s a disadvantage for a CEO not to have a sales background. However, a good CEO can learn about sales motivation. Sales teams suffer when they are overmanaged and under-coached. [27:22] One of the measurements of the Coaching Effects Survey is how consistent that leader is in their behavior. The best leaders are a lot more consistent with their team members. The consistency extends to one-to-one meetings, giving feedback, talking about the team member’s career, and following through on commitments. [29:37] When you are consistent as a leader, it makes the moments when you are inconsistent stand out more. Your team members are going to want to dig into it and understand it. If you are very consistent, then, when there’s something off, they might think there’s a pretty good. [30:59] Sarah would coach the importance of consistency starting with questions. She would ask a team member who was behaving inconsistently, “What’s your understanding of what you are supposed to be doing here?” They may not understand the expectations around their role. [31:31] Once she knows the expectations are aligned, Sarah would say “Let’s look at the data. Here’s where you’re meeting it, here’s where you’re not. Help me understand the gap. What’s holding you back from being able to achieve this?” They may need more training or a better understanding of the expectation. [32:04] Sarah doesn’t want to make assumptions about what’s causing the inconsistency. She wants to diagnose the issue with the person and come up with the problem and ideally, to come up with solutions together about what they can do differently. They buy into the solution, instead of being told what to do to fix their problem. [33:20] Sarah shares a client experience. A senior leader had thought the managers were doing one-to-ones, feedback, and career discussions, but they weren’t. The data showed clearly that despite the best intentions of the managers, they were not getting the coaching done. The disconnect between the leader’s perception and the reality in the eyes of the team members was a surprise to the leader. [34:08] So the leader made it a clear expectation. She made their coaching activities and the expectation to do them as part of their year-end bonus structure. If the leaders weren’t doing these coaching activities at a certain percentage, they would lose part of that compensation at the end of the year. The managers took it seriously, raised their coaching, and the company had its best two sales years so far. [35:01] The managers bought into it because they saw their teams were achieving more. They were motivated to keep coaching, even if they weren’t measured anymore, because they saw that it matters. [35:54] Sarah explains the reports Ecsell Institute produces for clients. For every question on the survey, they provide your result, company benchmarks, and top-performer benchmarks, so you can see how you are doing compared to your peers and the best leaders. [36:56] The data shows if you don’t have a strong relationship with your coach, at the core of that coaching dynamic, everything else — accountability, the type of feedback that they give you, how much they push you — all those other things kind of fall on deaf ears. They don’t know that you care and that you’re doing it in their best interest. [37:30] Sarah shares her thoughts on ChatGPT and artificial intelligence. There are certain things that can be helpful in the coaching process, that we can allow artificial intelligence to do, but at the core of it, the human relationship is so essential to helping somebody perform and grow. Sarah doesn’t think there’s a way that you replace that. [37:58] There’s always going to be such an important role that good leaders play because they’re the only people that can establish that human connection. [38:18] Jan just asked ChatGPT “What are the best questions to ask in a 360 for leaders?” In two seconds it responded, “How do I come across to others, in terms of my leadership style?” and “What do you think I need to do to build more trust with my team?” It’s going to be a great tool. Jan thinks it will help us get better. Please listen to Episode 348 for an interview with “guest” ChatGPT! [39:37] Jim heard that at least at one time if you were underperforming in an Amazon warehouse, a robot would come up to you and terminate your employment. That robot “definitely had a sign taped to its back!” [40:23] Sarah’s closing thoughts: “At Ecsell Institute, we are continuing to study leadership across the board and one of the places that we’re starting to study it is in high school and looking specifically at leadership from teachers and coaches and how it impacts kids in the classroom or on the court. … So be watching for more research that we have coming out on that, too.” [41:03] Closing quote: Remember, “Each person holds so much power within themselves that needs to be let out. Sometimes they just need a little nudge, a little direction, a little support, a little coaching, and the greatest things can happen.” — Pete Carroll, Seattle Seahawks   Quotable Quotes “My team members at Ecsell always like to say that I’m a bit of a pop-culture guru. I like my movies, I like my TV, I like my books, I like my music, and I like to find leadership lessons in them. I did a whole series once on how you can look for leadership lessons in … movies.” “There’s a scene at the end where they said, ‘The first one through the wall always gets bloodied.’ And I think that’s sometimes very true around leaders that are trying to be innovative and do different things. So [Moneyball] is a good movie for leadership lessons.” “There are many models of leadership in Pulp Fiction.” “The major way that we measure leader effectiveness is by going to the people that are being led. We feel that is the only way. If you want to get feedback and insight into whether or not somebody’s a good leader, ask the people that they’re supposed to be leading.” “Sometimes we just study the outcomes but we don't know necessarily what’s the role that that leader plays in achieving those outcomes.” “The leaders that are more highly rated in terms of their team members trust them, what behaviors are they exhibiting differently than the leaders who have low trust ratings? … How much information you share behind decisions that are made has a huge impact on trust ratings.” “As leaders, we overestimate a lot how consistent we are because we tend to judge ourselves by our intentions and what our plans were. But others judge us by what our behavior actually was.” “If you don’t have a strong relationship with your coach, at the core of that coaching dynamic, everything else — accountability, the type of feedback that they give you, how much they push you — all those other things fall on deaf ears because they don’t know that you care.” “There’s always going to be such an important role that good leaders play because they’re the only people that can establish that human connection.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Vivian James Rigney is a Seven Summits climber, and author of the book, “Naked at the Knife-Edge: What Everest Taught Me about Leadership and the Power of Vulnerability.” A Dublin native, Vivian shares information about his international travels and how he helps senior executives get past their egos, give up old habits, embrace vulnerability, and better serve their organizations. One tool he uses to teach vulnerability draws on his experience near the summit of Everest, where he learned the necessity of clarity and purpose. Listen in for insights on curiosity, peeling back the layers, and getting to the root of issues, challenges and opportunities.   Key Takeaways   [2:25] Vivian is from Dublin, Ireland. He studied business, then traveled the world. He has lived in seven countries, has visited more than 80 countries, and is now firmly planted in New York City. Every time he has launched himself in a new place has been a journey. He has seven books he could write about restarting in each country. [3:20] Apart from Ireland and the U.S., Vivian has lived the longest in Germany. He learned to speak German and French and he can still speak those languages. He lived in Finland for six winters, and he “can speak to a two-year-old” in Finnish. Vivian believes Mandarin and Finnish are the world’s toughest languages. [4:35] To make high-impact goals, first be very clear on the goal. Be congruent with the goal. Understand where your value system comes in. If you’re not fully committed to the goal, the words may be right but people won’t see it as a clear goal. [5:16] Never underestimate the power of subtraction. A list of too many goals diffuses the goals. If you have too many goals, you’ll fail on some. Be honest with yourself about a core list of goals. Say no to less important things. People will understand what the priorities are. [5:59] Acknowledge progress and celebrate success along the way. People need KPIs and progress reports. Success is not easy. In most cases, there has been a lot of toil along the way. There are people's challenges. So step back and learn from the things that could be done better next time. It helps people to be more authentic. It builds a culture of transparency. It changes the culture for the better. [7:31] Past guest Simon Sinek stressed, “It’s a journey. It’s a journey. It’s a journey.” You may never get there. Sometimes, once you’ve got there, it’s depressing. [7:59] High-impact goals benefit and serve others as well as yourself. The people executing the goal do better if they internalize the goal. You can make it clear to them how the end customer is helped by the goals. The minimum should be that your team and people feel connected with the goal. You connect as a leader with your team on an individual level. [10:08] On fact and assumption: Vivian recalls Denzel Washington in The Great Debaters. To be effective leaders we have to be current. Our nature is to operate from habits. That allows us to deal with what’s happening around us. But we have to be current, which means we have to upgrade what we believe. Are we dealing with information that’s relevant for now or a view we held yesterday? [10:50] We may be dealing with strong personalities who sound very compelling and sound good, but blow hot air and are not grounded. We constantly have to be asking what is the fact, and what is the emotion. There is a lot of emotion in the world. Distill down honestly what is important. Get past the ego that drives us. [11:40] Get feedback. Leaders tend to operate in their heads. Do we get perspectives on how others see us and experience us? Their perception is their reality. Use something like a 360-degree survey. Use a sounding board cabinet you can talk to, being vulnerable and open. Being a leader can be a lonely existence. Getting feedback can make you more real and current. [13:58] After getting past your ego, if you want to bring everyone else in a team to a current reality, Vivian says to be wildly curious. If you think something is off, ask about the situation with no judgment but curiosity to get to the facts, layer by layer, saying “Tell me more about that.” Get everyone to hear themselves and recalibrate their report if necessary. Drill down until you land at a point of clarity. [17:01] Vivian lays out a path for building a culture of curiosity in your team. After having a conversation about clarity, ask “What did I do differently today?” You may get observations like “You listened, you asked a lot of questions.” This creates shared learning, as people reflect on what you did as a leader. Ask “How did it make you feel to share more, or as I was asking more questions?” It’s curiosity with purpose. [18:40] Vivian shares some knowledge of the Seven Summits. There is more than one set, with a difference in one of the peaks selected. The people who have done the harder set number in the hundreds. [19:53] With his clients, Vivian uses a metaphor of a backpack filled with rocks. Letting go of the rocks in your backpack is letting go of strategies and habits you used in past roles that are no longer relevant to your senior role. What used to be ballast is now dead weight. Less is more. [22:41] Vivian recently talked a senior leader through the rationale of dialing back his intensity. Asking if it was in the leader’s DNA to get up late and lounge around, the leader knew it wasn’t. Being less intense did not mean he would get less done or lose the respect of his team. [24:34] There’s a basis of fear that has to be overcome. Vivian says it’s the fear of changing the status quo and losing control. Leaders feel they need to stay in control to stay on top of things. That comes at the cost of intuition. To make better decisions faster, tap into your intuition. Controlling too much is slow and inefficient. Releasing control frees you up to harness the strength you’ve built up over the years. [25:25] The purpose of a coach is to get the most out of the person they’re working with. In a business context, mindfulness is more about letting go of ego and being more authentic, having more impact through followership. [27:39] Sometimes we need to shed people. We don’t choose our family but we do choose the people around us. You want friends with net positive energy in daily life. You don’t want to have friends that always take energy from you that you need for other relationships. We deserve to be able to give to and receive from everybody. [30:20] Vivian discusses how to coach somebody to be “more strategic.” Is it that they are strategic but things get in the way, or is it that they are more suited to tactics and execution than strategy? The reality is that they may be in a role they don’t fit. [33:07] The top challenges facing senior leaders today are loneliness, agility, curiosity, and the data to process and use for faster decisions. The most important thing for leaders today is leading people of different generations, post-great-resignation while being authentic. [36:15] As a leader, you have ownership of how you recharge and must give the people on your team the same space to recharge. Recharging means different things for different people. If you demonstrate that you value recharging, while allowing your team room to choose how they recharge, it will show your support. Expect optimal performance from your team in the hours they work for you. [39:20] People may think that climbing Seven Summits makes you a wild, competitive animal that attacks things and figures them out. Vivian writes a detailed story in the book on the power of vulnerability. Everest was difficult for Vivian. On summit day, their guide seemed ill and was mumbling that he couldn’t do it this time. That put Vivian in a dark space with a hugely negative inner dialog. [40:39] Vivian felt a dark cloud overhead. He believed he couldn’t get up or down and he was sure he would die there. He felt a voice come from deep within him, repeating “Why are you here?” He realized he was climbing to prove himself. The voice asked why he was proving how strong, good, and successful he is. He closed his eyes to make peace with his expected demise. [41:41] Vivian’s sherpa tapped him on the shoulder and said if they stayed they would die. The sherpa demanded Vivian follow him. Everywhere the sherpa put his boot, Vivian put his boot. He thought he was going down, but he suddenly realized the sherpa was ascending. He followed him to the summit where he appreciated the view from the top but the cloud was with him until he got off the mountain. [42:37] The learning for Vivian was that we have to know why we’re doing things, not just chasing goals. He appreciates Everest but he regrets not having more clarity in his goal when he climbed it. In many cases, we do things without knowing why. Vivian didn’t need to prove anything. He had already achieved much. [43:08] As leaders, we have to learn when to let go. We are enough. Ask, “How do I use what I have?” Vivian shares with clients his vulnerability and what he learned from it. It induces them to share their story and they build rapport from that. Examples like that help us to be real. Life is all about real experiences. Vivian uses that in his coaching. [44:26] Vivian’s thoughts about the inner voice he heard on Everest: “I think that voice is always with us. … We do have to listen to ourselves, to let go of the noise, and we have to do that by disarming the ego. … We try to get people wise and honest themselves, 30, 40 years ahead of the regret, and have fulfilling times from that point forward.” [46:10] Vivan wrote Naked at the Knife Edge in New York City during the COVID-19 pandemic when he felt a vulnerability similar to the vulnerability he had felt on Mt. Everest in 2010. He said it was time to write the book. He wrote it in a few months, then added leadership pieces and reflections to it. It had taken him 10 years to be ready. [47:33] Closing quote: Remember, “A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives.” — Jackie Robinson   Quotable Quotes “How do you make goals that are going to be meaningful and resonant? The first thing one has to do is be very clear on that goal. Be congruent with the goal. Understand where your value system comes in with this. Why is that? Because you’re a leader.” “Never underestimate the power of subtraction. … People tend to make shopping lists of goals. … A list that’s too long gets in the way. It diffuses the goals.” “‘Wildly curious’ means, if you’ve done the introspection on your own head,  which is step number one, do it with others. … [Go in] without judgment. … Peel back the layer and say, ‘Tell me more about that.’” “When they get to senior leadership levels, … they’re using a lot of tools that they used in the past to do what they do today. … It’s about letting go of strategies from the past and habits from the past, which are no longer relevant. … Less is more.” “A decent coach’s sole purpose is not to reinvent the wheel; it’s to get the most out of that person they’re working with.” “As a leader, you have to have ownership of how you recharge and the people under you.” “In many cases in life, we are doing things without knowing why we’re doing it. In my case, I was trying to prove how good I was. How strong I was. But I didn’t need to prove; I’d already achieved.” “I think that voice is always with us. For me, I had chosen not to listen to it earlier, doing previous things. … We do have to listen to ourselves, we have to let go of the noise, and we have to do that by disarming the ego and really letting go.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

Erin Shrimpton is a chartered organizational psychologist and a LinkedIn Learning Instructor. Erin has a passion for shaping culture that is true to the brand it represents and strategy it supports. In this episode, Erin shares what she’s  learned about the workplace experience, and how culture is created and influenced by the behavior leaders model. Listen in for a dynamic conversation regarding the psychological aspects of how the environment, and connections truly shape culture.     Key Takeaways   [2:25] Erin was recommended to Jan and Jim by Dean Karrel, another LinkedIn Learning instructor. Jan and Erin have an Irish connection. Jan took students to study abroad in Dublin, Belfast, and Galway to compare and contrast the business and cultural environments between the U.S. and Ireland. Erin was born in Ireland and is based there. [3:41] Erin loves the Beatles! Particularly, The White Album. Erin considers that everybody has some sort of connection with the Beatles. [6:05] Erin talks about changing the experience to change the culture. Recent neuroscience research shows that much of the way we behave is shaped by our experiences. Our experience shapes the pathways in our brains, so much more than we knew before. Apply that to what we experience every day in the workplace. [7:21] Who owns the experiences we have at work? The CEO and senior leaders, HR, IT, Facilities, your manager, and your colleagues. Your colleagues are a large part of your experience. You may be powerless to change the direction of the organization, but you can change your experience with your colleagues. If you’re a great team leader, you can empower them to change their experience, every day. [9:01] Empowering your team to have great experiences may not change the wider culture but when you work together to change the little things about how you interact with each other, you start to catalyze change, because other teams are looking at you. This changes the culture from the ground up. [9:35] Jan refers to a recent NY Times article on assessing job satisfaction and why employees leave. A big factor is that the values the employees have are not the same as the values of the organization. When that happens, Jan tells clients there are three choices: they can work to change things, they can accept things, or they can seek employment elsewhere. [10:34] Erin’s first “port of call” in a similar case is always to examine and see what you can change. There are a lot of things within your control when working in teams. If even your great experiences with colleagues cannot protect you against a toxic culture, Erin encourages people to find another route for employment. That’s only after Erin has investigated with them how else they could change things there. [12:41] In the remote world, it is too early to tell how culture is being affected when people don’t see each other between meetings. Erin is pleased to see organizations getting together outside of their working context for the connection’s sake. [13:22] Erin sees two big issues with remote work: We’re losing opportunities to watch other people role-model examples and more importantly, we’re losing the opportunity to connect with people in an unstructured, water-cooler-type way. Erin sees the second issue as being damaging to our well-being and mental health. The first issue is detrimental to the organization, the second is a societal issue. [14:37] Research says that when we’ve got autonomy over our working day, the outcomes for our work and our mental health are much better, but we need to make sure we are connecting in person, as we can, as well. Use intention to create “impromptu” moments. Networking is essential. [17:08] Erin tells how some younger people (after working virtually) react to one of her in-person workshops with everyone in the room together. They find it nice to be in a group and have banter. But most young people are electing to work remotely. Are they finding moments of connection elsewhere and are they satisfied with that? If they are, do we need to rethink office work? [18:29] Erin sees local people going out to lunch with friends, even going for a swim, and then heading back to their home office for the afternoon. They are getting connections in their neighborhoods, which is good societally but presents a challenge to organizations seeking to create cohesiveness among their employees. Realize that it takes an effort to create connections with people. [20:53] Erin tells leaders we are facing two issues at the moment: revolutionizing the way we work and working out how to keep our teams connected. Erin asks them “Can one issue solve the other? Can you ask your team to solve together one thing that’s bothering them now?” When they feel real autonomy to do that, they get going with it and start that meaningful connection, whether it is local or remote. [23:11] Erin teaches a LinkedIn Learning class, “Use an Entrepreneurial Mindset to Find Success and Fulfilment at Work.” Erin has been intrigued by entrepreneurial thinking since she was a child. When she went into psychology she studied what makes work better for people. Then she assisted in a startup, Innocent Drinks. Everyone there was encouraged to think entrepreneurially. Erin learned how to do it. [24:14] When Erin went into other organizations and coached organizations for culture change, she noticed entrepreneurial people everywhere. Entrepreneurs aren’t just people who start businesses; entrepreneurs are people who think in a certain way about making something better. She also noticed that entrepreneurs absolutely have to find a way to motivate themselves that is not financially driven. [24:49] For most entrepreneurs, their “fortune” is a very long way away, so they have to motivate themselves to get up and find work every day that fulfills them that day. That’s what Erin saw in the entrepreneurial thinks she found at work in various organizations. They are able to find an intrinsic reward in their day-to-day work. [25:17] Being people who are able to find the intrinsic reward in the daily activities of their work, who are able to tolerate the uncertainty of our working lives, and who look with vision into the future are the three main elements Erin talks about in her LinkedIn Learning course. It is a mindset that can be learned. Most people don’t want to start companies but they can find this entrepreneurial mindset helpful. [26:27] To learn a mindset, adopt the behaviors and the habits. As a leader, be a role model of the habits you want others to adopt. Erin asks leaders, "How are you getting people to solve these problems with you?” To change their behavior, people need to feel some responsibility for the outcome. Jan quotes an old Irish mentor of his, Bud Ahern, who said, “People support what they help create.” [28:26] Erin shares information about Innocent Drinks, a very innovative brand for its time. Instead of printing “Use By” on the lid, they put “Enjoy By.” They didn’t think about the rules as they were, but about how they could change things. Erin has taken that with her, ever since. [29:18] Thinking about “how it could be” leads to innovation and creativity. But we are accustomed to operating by rules. We have to have some rules and heuristics because otherwise we would become overwhelmed with the world. Tune in to notice the set of rules by which you operate. Do you need them? How could things be different? Where do you stop breaking the rules, though? [31:01] It is hard as a leader to encourage rule-breaking but not too much. She compares the rules we used to have for our daily work to our rules for this more flexible environment. We have to learn how to be flexible with the rules and use a bit of deep thought about where the line is drawn and whether to break this rule or not. For leaders, it comes back to role modeling and sometimes admitting fallibility. [32:13] A leader may need to explain, “I took this risk. I probably went a step too far and here’s why, and here’s the learning I had from it.” It’s a bit of trial and error. You’re not always going to get it right as a leader but it’s worth that risk. [33:13] We need to be more forgiving as people adjust to what could be our new normal. There is an ongoing level of discomfort we all feel in this transition and we’re not articulating it enough. In 2019, we really had a very different life as a global culture. We don’t know how the future will play out and that’s uncomfortable. Having compassion for this discomfort can go a long way for leaders with their teams. [34:34] Active listening, taking a team member out for coffee, asking people how they are doing, all go so far. Jan cites past guest Margaret Heffernan who said before the pandemic, we were all about efficiency. The pandemic showed us we weren’t very adaptable. Today, businesses are still trying to be efficient while adapting to the needs of the people who run the business. We need negotiation skills. [35:31] A psychological contract with your employer is about the expectations you have going into a job and the expectations your employer has for your performance. You have an unwritten psychological contract but over time the contract gets breached because the expectations of the employee and the employer don’t match. This can lead to disengagement, or it can be managed by good communication. [36:31] If you joined a new organization in 2019, your employment expectations then are much different than your expectations today. We need to be having more open conversations about how our expectations have changed around our working lives, including what employers are expecting of their people. The team needs to understand what the expectations are and how they’ve changed. [37:54] Even knowing about it, Erin also falls into the trap of mismatched or misunderstood expectations. She will find herself frustrated and then recognize she has an expectation about something that may not be realistic. The first step is to become aware of your expectations. Then find the language and the forum to have those conversations with your manager or colleagues. [39:24] In the negotiation we are having about the new ways of working you need to get granular about things like managing your boundaries around your working lives. When it is OK to text or email? These details are what make up our day-to-day experiences. Give people permission to disagree or “fight.” It’s encouraged to avoid the dysfunction of complacency. People need to challenge each other. [40:56] Erin’s Closing thoughts: “Take time out to reflect because we are all so overwhelmed and busy … and so many … things … require a deep reflection and tuning in to what’s going on for us and …  to what’s going on for our teams.” [42:12] Closing quote: Remember, “Progress is impossible without change, and those who cannot change their minds cannot change anything.” — George Bernard Shaw   Quotable Quotes “I always think that everybody has a connection with the Beatles in some way, shape, or form.” “The field of neuroscience has progressed so much in the last 20 years when I did my undergrad in psychology. What we know now is so much of the way we behave is shaped by our experience.” “If you think about what is the best definition of culture, it’s ‘How we do things around here.’ So. how do we learn about how to do things? We watch, and we experience what everybody else is doing, don’t we?” “One of the things that people often get frustrated with about culture is that they feel completely disempowered to do anything about it. … If you’re thinking ‘There’s nothing I can do,’ that may be true in some context, … but you can change the experience.” “If you work in what you might define as a toxic culture, working with great colleagues helps you to kind of buffer against that. But there certainly comes a point, and … this is really important, … where you have to be brave and say to yourself, … this is not good for me.” “As a psychologist, I am all for the flexibility, the autonomy, that we are now enjoying with the new hybrid way of working. … I think it is really great for most of us.” “Other research says that when we’ve got autonomy over our working day, the outcome for our work is so much better and for our mental health, but … we need to make sure we are connecting in person, as and when we can, as well.” “Connection doesn’t happen just because you put people in an office. It happens when they’re working on something meaningful. So that’s the thing to focus on.” “Entrepreneurs aren’t just people who start businesses; entrepreneurs are people who think in a certain way about making something better.” “A world that affords us flexibility means that we also have to be flexible in it. We have to learn how to be flexible.”   Resources Mentioned Sponsored by:

ChatGPT is the artificial intelligence talk of the town, and Jan and Jim have experimented with it for a few months and share the questions they asked it, and the responses ChatGPT provided. They discuss how ChatGPT can be a game-changer for leaders to spend more time doing what they do best - develop relationships and exercise judgment. Listen in for how AI can be a new tool in your toolbox, and its potential as a leadership enhancer.    Key Takeaways   [1:38] Jan and Jim give a big shoutout to their friend Greg Hinc of County Cork, Ireland. He wrote that he started listening to The Leadership Podcast at about Episode 150, then he went back and listened to them all. He comments on their social media posts. He’s talked a lot about how much he’s learned and gained from it, which means a lot to Jan and Jim. There’s a little gift coming to Greg. [2:34] If you have listened to every episode like Greg, then Jan and Jim would love to hear from you, as well. [4:07] Jim’s friend, Jim Mirochnik of Halock Security Labs, introduced him three months ago to ChatGPT, an artificial intelligence chatbot. After five minutes of interaction, Jim was as excited as when he first learned of the world wide web in 1992. Jim asked ChatGPT a variety of questions and he got back usually well-written answers. [5:33] To test ChatGPT on a task a human probably couldn’t do quickly, Jim asked it, “Write a Java computer program that will take the input of two people’s names and an adjective describing their relationship and create a poem written in Iambic Pentameter.” Within seconds, it wrote a Java program that was pretty close to being exactly what Jim had asked for. [6:17] Jim clarified his question and ChatGPT gave him a better result. Then Jim asked it to write the program in Python and it instantly supplied the Python code on half a sheet. It gave a more concise answer than a human coder might have given and it was good code. [7:01] Jim and Jan share some questions he asked and the answers from ChatGPT from about three months ago. [7:14] Q. Write a 500-word essay on leadership. The answer came in about 35 seconds and it was amazing. Then Jim asked, “How many words is that essay?” It said 532. Jim asked why it went over. It said leadership is a complex topic and hard to explain. [7:54] This morning Jim asked it the same question: Write a 500-word essay on leadership. ChatGPT has gotten a lot busier, with more users. The response today took six minutes. It was very well written again and similar to the first response but it was much more concise at 372 words. ChatGPT is having a deep impact on university students and the way they study. It is a fantastically useful and powerful tool. [8:53] Jan hears people afraid that ChatGPT will take their job. He recently demoed ChatGPT to a CEO. When the CEO asked, Why are there silos developing in my organization? It gave these answers: Lack of communication/collaboration, competition for resources, different goals and priorities, silos created by structure, or resistance to change. That gave Jan and his client five things to explore together. [10:56] If you only had pliers before, now you have a vice grip. What sticks out for Jan is that he has to ask it very good questions and then, exercise his judgment and decide what to look at. [11:27] What Jan did with his CEO client was look at different goals and priorities. They have a retreat planned where each attendee will bring a list of five important priorities and will make sure everyone is clear on roles and responsibilities and where there is overlap. Jan — not ChatGPT — will facilitate the discussion. Jan sees it as an awesome tool. [12:03] Some people get better and quicker responses than others when searching on Google because they know how to ask questions the right way for good search results. That skill is super important with ChatGPT. You get better by practicing and using it. [12:45] There are some things that it can do quickly that might take weeks for a human to do. Jim asked, What are the top five themes articulated in The Leadership Podcast? [13:41] ChatGPT answered, “As an AI language model, I don’t have personal opinions but I can provide you with an overview of some of the most commonly discussed themes on The Leadership Podcast, based on the content available on their website and podcast. Here are five possible themes: Leadership …, personal development, team dynamics, innovation and disruption, business and industry insights.” [14:27] ChatGPT took about a minute to make that analysis. It had indexed and searched the entire site for The Leadership Podcast, so it knows about it. Jim had asked it the same question two months ago before it was able to search websites. Now it can. Its functionality is increasing at a geometric pace. [15:16] ChatGPT is a fun, powerful tool, and its answers are exceptionally well done. Another question was, Can you measure leadership? It came up with a similar answer to a discussion with guest Sarah Wirth - The Leadership Podcast Episode 351. [16:28] Jan asked ChatGPT When I interview Jim Vaselopulos from Rafti Advisors for my podcast, what should I ask him? ChatGPT responded, “As a business strategist and leaders consultant, Jim is able to provide valuable insights on various topics related to business management leadership. Here are some questions to ask during the interview. …” [16:51] “ … How has the COVID-19 pandemic impacted business strategies in leadership and how can organizations adapt to these changes?”, “Can you share a memorable experience from your career that taught you an important lesson about leadership?”, “What inspired you to become a strategist and leadership consultant?” [17:22] “Can you share a particularly successful project you had with a client and what made it successful?” These are good generic questions. They provide a good starting point. Jim cites Atomic Habits, by James Clear. If you want to run, start by putting your shoes on. Then you generally follow through. ChatGPT is a tool to help you jumpstart a report or analysis. It can help you get moving. [18:53] Jan is working with an organization with five good values that has not articulated its values into observable behaviors. One of the values is accountability. Jan asked ChatGPT, What three observable behaviors would you assign to the value of accountability? ChatGPT’s response was, “Honesty and transparency, reliability and follow through, adaptability and continuous improvement.” [19:26] Under “continuous improvement,” ChatGPT added, “They take feedback constructively, they recognize mistakes or failures can be opportunities for growth and learning, they’re willing to adjust their approach …” Jan asked if you, the listeners, know what the values mean in your organization? Don’t follow a robot blindly, but ChatGPT gives a great starting point for a discussion on values. [20:25] Jan says, oftentimes, those [company] values are ambiguous, the culture is by default, and the values and standards cannot be upheld because there’s no agreement on what they mean. There’s no common vocabulary. That’s something every organization could do today. Look at your values and agree on behaviors to associate with them. Can we be more clear on what we want our folks to do? [21:12] Three years ago, Jim and Jan were asked to go out to the Air University in Montgomery, Alabama. They gave a speech summarizing The Leadership Podcast and the guests they had interviewed and the overarching theme they could find. One of the themes that still continues since then was curiosity. The most successful leaders had the trait of being curious. ChatGPT didn’t come up with that! [21:59] The Leadership Podcast is about curiosity. Learning to use a tool like ChatGPT is about being curious. What are you curious about? [22:28] Jan asked When I interview Jan Rutherford from Self-reliant Leadership for my podcast, what should I ask him? ChatGPT responded “Can you tell us a bit about your background, how you became interested in self-reliant leadership?” and “What are the key traits and characteristics of self-reliant leaders?” It didn’t ask a single COVID-19 question, ask about stories or mention entrepreneurs. [23:06] ChatGPT had picked up on those topics on Jim’s website, not on Jan’s. There were relevant questions for each Jan and Jim from their websites. [23:18] Another question for Jan was “Are there any common misconceptions or misunderstandings about self-reliant leadership that you would like to clear up?” That’s a good question. During this episode, Jan and Jim were curious, tested their assumptions, and learned something! [23:40] Curiosity is such an important theme. ChatGPT is a vehicle to supercharge your curiosity and enlighten yourself in ways that you couldn’t without reading books that you may not have time to read. [24:27] Simon Sinek was a guest on the show and they asked him, “Where does personal responsibility and a sense of real duty to each other start to play a role, especially now (during the pandemic)?” So Jan asked ChatGPT that question. [24:42] ChatGPT had interesting answers, ending with “To foster a sense of personal responsibility and a duty to each other, it’s important to prioritize empathy, compassion, and kindness. We can start by listening to and understanding the needs and concerns of others, being willing to make personal sacrifices for the greater good, and taking action to support our communities in meaningful ways.” [25:09] Jan plays Simon’s answer: “Trust is a two-way street. Just think of any relationship: friendship, marriage, or anything. Trust is always two ways. In a business context, where there’s formal hierarchy, it is the leader’s responsibility to create the environment in which trust can exist.” [25:41] (Simon continues) “To build a circle of safety and create an environment in which people feel safe to raise their hand and say, ‘I made a mistake,’ or ‘I need help,’ or ‘I don’t understand,’ without any fear of humiliation or retribution. Without any fear that they’ll be on some shortlist by the end of the year. However, it’s everyone’s responsibility to step into that circle of safety.” [25:59] (Simon continues) “Compare it to a personal relationship. It’s very important for at least one person in the relationship to start to create an environment in which the other person feels safe to express themselves or be themselves. But it’s still the responsibility of the other person to take that risk to express themselves or be themselves.” [26:16] (Simon concludes) “It’s the same in business. It’s all fine and good for us to create the environment but people have to take the risk and say, ‘Hey boss, I need help,’ or ‘I made a mistake,’ and to realize that there’s no humiliation or blowback if you do that. In fact, you get his support.” [26:36] The ChatGPT is not about to replace Simon Sinek. He’s wonderful to listen to, he’s articulate. He hit on a lot of the same themes that were in ChatGPT’s answer. Jan finds that interesting. We know this AI today is going to be exponentially better. In less than a year, it may use a voice and cadence to come close to Simon Sinek. Leaders and business people now have another tool in their toolbox. [27:39] We’re still going to need to build relationships; we’re still going to need to be able to exercise judgment. If curiosity is a value in your organization, what does that mean? Are we teaching people to ask better questions and to listen better? Or are we saying go to Toastmasters to learn to be a great speaker and articulate? The emphasis has been on using our mouths instead of our ears! [28:10] To do a school term paper, you come up with an outline and then flesh it out. In practical business, people don’t start with an outline. Powerpoint is the closest thing to an outline for presentations. Make one good point instead of five average points. Two good points and seven bad ones ruin a presentation. ChatGPT can help you sharpen your point and get at it. [29:38] What are the keys to having difficult conversations? ChatGPT answered with seven bullet points taking up three-quarters of a page. Jim lists the bullet points: “Prepare, choose, listen actively, be clear and direct, focus on the issue, offer solutions and options, and follow up.” The supporting information is spot-on. It doesn’t have too many extra words or fluff statements. [30:23] What are the most common mistakes people make when delegating? “Not delegating at all, over-delegating, poor communication, micro-managing, lack of follow-up, not providing sufficient resources, and taking credit.” You have to recognize the efforts and achievements of the person you delegated to. [31:27] For as scary as this new technology can be, we need to adopt it, embrace it, and understand that it’s going to affect all of us in some way, shape, or form. Whether you realize it or not, your employees are using it! Jim shares a client story about it. [32:14] Jan just had a conversation about trust. He cites past guest Margaret Heffernan: Social capital is what happens between people; that relationship. You want to work with people you like, people you respect, and people you trust. Trust takes time and everybody’s busy. [33:28] Jan refers to Lisa McLeod, a sales thought leader, who says “If you can’t understand how you’re making people’s lives better, you can’t sell anything.” It would be so sad to go to work, with whatever tools you use, and not think at the end, “How am I making people’s lives better?” See the interview here: .  [34:10] Jim asked a young salesman what his value proposition was. The salesman listed the product features but Jim wanted to know how the salesman was making his customer’s life better. Jim tells a friend’s story about the pressure-washing cheerleader who lifted his low spirit with kindness and joy. [36:55] Past guest Barry Schwartz told about cancer-ward janitors who weren’t there to clean messes but to provide a better experience for patients. That floor had the best cancer-survival rates because of the janitors who brought them kindness and preserved their dignity. [37:39] Jan recalls how past guest Christophe Morin of SalesBrain uses props. As a prop, Jan holds up an insulated mug his wife got him for Valentine’s Day. Jan asks ChatGPT How does a coffee mug that stays warm improve someone’s life? “A mug that stays warm can be a convenient addition to a person’s daily routine. They can take their time enjoying their drink without having to worry about it getting cold.” [38:53] ChatGPT also says that drinking a hot beverage has been linked to various health benefits, such as improving digestion, boosting metabolism, and reducing the risk of certain diseases. “With a mug that stays warm, one can ensure they’re consuming their hot beverage at the optimal temperature to reap these benefits.” Our business is selling something. Do we understand how it improves someone’s life? [39:20] Is ChatGPT a menace? It might be. Is it something that can improve our life? Jan thinks it will be able to speed up things. It will get us to a point where creating an outline or coming up with some ideas, we’ll let somebody else do that and we’ll focus on the things that only we can do; exercise judgment, cut and paste, modify, edit, or think, and step back. It will help us get better at asking questions. [40:11] What Jan hopes ChatGPT does is allow us to spend more time with each other and improve the relationships we have between people, not on a computer all the time. [40:54] Jim asked ChatGPT to write the Darley ad, and it did! Jim reads the ad. [41:37] Microsoft is incorporating ChatGPT into Bing. [41:51] Jan and Jim would love to hear your feedback on this episode and on ChatGPT. How are you using it? This is a game-changer. Comment on LinkedIn or on Facebook or comment on the episode page. Jan and Jim will respond. [42:28] Closing quote: Remember, “Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.” — Arthur Schopenhauer   Quotable Quotes from ChatGPT “As an AI language model, I don’t have personal opinions but I can provide you with an overview of some of the most commonly discussed themes on The Leadership Podcast, based on the content available on their website and podcast. Here are five possible themes: Leadership … , personal development, team dynamics, innovation and disruption, business and industry insights.” “As a business strategist and leaders consultant, Jim is able to provide valuable insights on various topics related to business management leadership. Here are some questions to ask during the interview.” “To foster a sense of personal responsibility and a duty to each other, it’s important to prioritize empathy, compassion, and kindness. We can start by listening to and understanding the needs and concerns of others, being willing to make personal sacrifices for the greater good, and taking action to support our communities in meaningful ways.” “[Before a difficult conversation], prepare, choose, listen actively, be clear and direct, focus on the issue, offer solutions and options, and follow up..” “[Mistakes when delegating are] not delegating at all, over-delegating, poor communication, micro-managing, lack of follow-up, not providing sufficient resources, and taking credit.” Resources Mentioned Sponsored by: