You Have Permission

It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour, where I sit down with Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones to unpack everything from personal stories to shifting generational trends. In today’s episode, we kick things off by exploring my evolving relationship with cannabis and the lingering stigma that still surrounds its use. From there, we dive into the joys and headaches of homeownership as a way of celebrating Josh and his partner Emily’s first home purchase—comparing notes on which tools are actually worth investing in and which ones just collect dust. Later, we look at the shifting landscape of religion and politics, especially how Gen Z is reimagining both faith and civic engagement in ways that often surprise older generations. And of course, we couldn’t avoid discussing the impact of COVID-19—how it reshaped our sense of community, morality, and what we expect from each other socially. I share how many of my college student therapy clients have mentioned the timing of Covid-era lockdowns as having affected their social skills development. In the patron-only second half of the episode, we go even deeper, focusing on how Gen Z is navigating political disillusionment, their renewed interest in spirituality, and what all of this might mean for the future of activism and trust in institutions. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.com YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this roundtable conversation, I reconnect with Joy Vetterlein and Jon Steingard (former Hawk Nelson frontman) to explore their parallel journeys of leaving Christian ministry contexts, building public platforms around their deconstruction experiences, and then making the countercultural decision to step back from that public work entirely.  Both guests candidly discuss the complex motivations behind their initial platform-building—Jon's ingrained need for attention from his band years, Joy's readiness to stop letting others take credit for her best work—and the financial realities that made sustainability difficult. The conversation reveals how both discovered that the deconstruction community, initially appealing for its theological openness, developed its own orthodoxies and mob dynamics that felt uncomfortably similar to the evangelical culture they'd left.  Ultimately, both chose privacy and continued growth over platform maintenance, recognizing the hidden costs of public work on family relationships and personal development. Their stories offer a rare glimpse into the decision to pull back from influence and attention in a culture obsessed with building platforms and growing audiences. Previous Episodes: I Don't Believe in that God: Jon Steingard (#75) I Don't Believe in That God: Joy Vetterlein (#230) ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.com YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My dear friend Ben Bishop, author of The Garden House Substack, joins me to discuss how fiction can help us imagine how people from different times and places experienced the divine, particularly through the novels of Frederick Buechner. Listeners don't need to have read these works to follow our conversation—there are "no quizzes" here. Rather, Buechner’s function helps us strip away our accumulated religious assumptions. When we read biblical stories today, we're receiving them after thousands of years of theological interpretation, but Buechner helps us imagine what it felt like to be Jacob or Isaac in the moment—not as figures who knew they were part of some grand biblical narrative, but as people experiencing strange, terrifying, and wonderful encounters with the divine in real-time. Through his storytelling, we confront both the "offensiveness and the beauty and wonder of those stories" in ways that theoretical discussions simply cannot achieve, making ancient faith experiences immediate and visceral. In the Patreon-exclusive second half, Ben and I discuss our shared adolescent experiences with Christian punk rock, its influence on our sociopolitics, social lives, and faith development. Ben's Substack Ben's pieces mentioned: The Light Shines in the Darkness Straight On Til Morning ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.com YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I’m joined by my longtime friend Joe Rose, a partner at the law firm Gibson Dunn, for a wide-ranging and grounded conversation on the selection of Pope Leo XIV, the first ever American pope. We explore his background, reflect on the legacy of Pope Francis, and discuss possible downstream effects of Pope Leo’s ties to the Augustinian order. Along the way, we talk about grace, the ongoing relevance of Catholic Social Teaching, and how the papacy continues to shape the everyday spiritual lives of Catholics around the world, including Joe’s personal faith. Whether you’re Catholic or not, this episode offers insight into how tradition, global leadership, and theological nuance intersect in what is probably the world’s most influential faith community. ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.com YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sara Showalter Van Tongeren is a licensed clinical social worker and therapist (and happens to be the wife of frequent pod guest Darrell Van Tongeren). She joins me to discuss religious trauma, spiritual abuse, and the process of religious belief change — areas where both Sara and I work with clients professionally. Sarah explains that for many, religion answers fundamental existential questions about freedom, identity, isolation, death, and meaning. When religious certainty is shaken, this leaves people without tools to address these questions and creates a crisis of meaning. We discuss the importance of developing "existential resilience" — the ability to navigate uncertainty and both light and dark aspects of existence after leaving religious frameworks. In the Patreon second half, we discuss embodiment in healing religious trauma, rebuilding meaning systems, and how therapeutic relationships can model healthy patterns of rupture and repair lacking in many religious contexts. My instagram: @theexistentialtherapist LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/sara-showalter-van-tongeren  Group Practice Website: https://www.theflourishingco.org/  My website (no shoes): https://saravantongeren.com/  Therapist Centered Group Consultation: https://www.therapeuticgroupconsultation.com/videos  Everett Worthington's work on Forgiveness with free handbook/resources: https://www.evworthington-forgiveness.com/diy-workbooks  Highlights: 09:46 The Fluidity of Religious Trauma 14:50 Existential Questions and Religious Beliefs 24:55 Resilience in the Face of Spiritual Abuse 30:11 Coping Mechanisms and Grounding Techniques 43:30 Fighting Back with Cognitive Therapy 50:40 The Importance of Community in Healing ___________________________________________ Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/ Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/ Edited by Josh Gilbert (⁠joshgilbertmedia.com⁠ -- he is accepting more work!) Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.com YHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98 Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.html Join Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/ Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In today's episode, I reconnect with Jim Wellman from the University of Washington to discuss his fascinating undergraduate course, "A Life Worth Living." We explore how Jim guides students through fundamental questions of meaning and purpose that are often neglected in contemporary education. Jim shares touching stories of student transformations and we reflect on our own spiritual journeys—his recent reconnection with Christianity and my parallel work as a therapist addressing similar existential questions. We discuss Lisa Miller's research on spirituality's neurological benefits, Kantian ethics, and Tom Holland's thesis that Christian values underpin even progressive movements. Throughout our conversation runs a shared concern: in a consumer-oriented culture that "flattens" human experience, how can we cultivate deeper sources of meaning? This conversation felt like a vintage episode—intellectually rich yet deeply personal.Previous Episode with Jim:The Surprising Value of Megachurches (#95)Highlights10:05 Exploring Meaning and Identity in Students27:04 The Intersection of Spirituality and Science44:15 Ethical and Moral Development in Education01:00:00 Cross-Cultural Literacy and Understanding01:08:29 Human Flourishing and Its Importance___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I grabbed my teammates Josh and Joy for a bonus, impromptu mid-week episode on our real-time reaction to the news of Pope Francis passing, some general updates about the pod, and to talk through the results of our listener survey (with some more specific analysis for the Patreon community).What do you think of the results? Do you agree? Disagree?  Let us know! ___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, I sit down with Justin Brierley, former host of the UK-based show Unbelievable to discuss his book Why I'm Still a Christian and explore questions of faith, doubt, and religious identity. I share my struggles with Christianity in the current American context, particularly with the rise of Christian nationalism, while Justin offers his perspective from across the pond. We discuss Justin's approach of facilitating respectful dialogue across different perspectives, something increasingly rare in our polarized media landscape. We explore the distinction between general theism and specific Christian claims, with me expressing greater confidence in theism broadly than in particular Christian doctrines like the resurrection. Justin shares how his faith incorporates both intellectual and experiential dimensions, citing C.S. Lewis's journey from philosophical theism to Christianity. Though we run out of time before covering all the arguments in Justin's book, our conversation exemplifies the kind of thoughtful, nuanced dialogue about religion that both of us value.Justin's Linktree | linktr.ee/JustinBrierley___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I bring in my team members Josh Gilbert and Joy Vetterlein to check in on the state of You Have Permission and brainstorm future content directions.We want your input too… take the YHP poll here to let us know what you want to hear in coming days!I begin by explaining my reduced presence over the past eight months due to my demanding psychology internship (a necessary step toward licensure) and share how YHP's focus has evolved beyond evangelicalism toward broader explorations of psychology, religion, and their cultural manifestations.Then, I have Josh break out the timer and we walk through nine potential miniseries concepts including Centering Prayer, TV/Movie Analysis, Therapy Modalities, Modern Perspectives on Central Christian Claims, and Theories of Religion series we jokingly dub "Call Him Sky-Daddy." In the patron-only section, the conversation wanders through political jokes, televisionP recommendations and friendly banter covering a mini-therapy session for Joy’s fear of appearing on podcasts, Josh's appreciation for Jesus's teaching about removing the log from one's own eye first, and my dissertation defense (which I'd completed that very day). We love making You Have Permission and we’re excited to keep making the show with input from you here… so we hope you can take 4-5 minutes and share your preferences now!___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I welcome back psychologist Dr. Chuck DeGroat to continue our discussion on narcissism in religious settings that we began in this episode in February. After recapping our previous conversation about the development and manifestation of narcissism in church systems, we discuss a troubling trend in conservative Christian circles: the demonization of empathy. Chuck expresses bewilderment at this rhetoric, suggesting it functions as "an apologetic for apathy" and reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of healthy, differentiated empathy. We distinguish between losing oneself in others' emotions (undifferentiated empathy) versus maintaining healthy boundaries while connecting (differentiated empathy), noting that the critics have created a caricature of empathy as completely ungrounded. This trend is particularly concerning since low empathy is a hallmark trait of narcissism, potentially creating environments where narcissistic leadership flourishes undetected or is even rewarded.The majority of our conversation happens in the Patreon-only portion, where we explore different types of empathy, and discuss the challenges of identifying narcissistic leaders during hiring processes. We also examine whether power in church settings inevitably leads to narcissism, analyze parallels between narcissistic family systems and church communities, and address what individuals should do when they recognize narcissistic leadership in their church—with Chuck emphasizing the importance of therapy and preparation before any confrontation.Previous Episode with Chuck:All About Narcissism (#309)Chuck's Website | Chuckdegroat.net___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices