You Have Permission

I welcome back psychologist Dr. Chuck DeGroat to continue our discussion on narcissism in religious settings that we began in this episode in February. After recapping our previous conversation about the development and manifestation of narcissism in church systems, we discuss a troubling trend in conservative Christian circles: the demonization of empathy. Chuck expresses bewilderment at this rhetoric, suggesting it functions as "an apologetic for apathy" and reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of healthy, differentiated empathy. We distinguish between losing oneself in others' emotions (undifferentiated empathy) versus maintaining healthy boundaries while connecting (differentiated empathy), noting that the critics have created a caricature of empathy as completely ungrounded. This trend is particularly concerning since low empathy is a hallmark trait of narcissism, potentially creating environments where narcissistic leadership flourishes undetected or is even rewarded.The majority of our conversation happens in the Patreon-only portion, where we explore different types of empathy, and discuss the challenges of identifying narcissistic leaders during hiring processes. We also examine whether power in church settings inevitably leads to narcissism, analyze parallels between narcissistic family systems and church communities, and address what individuals should do when they recognize narcissistic leadership in their church—with Chuck emphasizing the importance of therapy and preparation before any confrontation.Previous Episode with Chuck:All About Narcissism (#309)Chuck's Website | Chuckdegroat.net___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this powerful return conversation with Heather Griffin, I revisit our popular "Mount Rushmore" of evangelical epistemology concepts: knowledge is easy, Bible facts, sincerity culture, and sanctified common sense. Heather shares her devastating experiences advocating for abuse survivors within the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA), revealing how institutional structures that appear to provide accountability often fail catastrophically. She describes the ACNA's unique problems where bishops operate with little oversight while clergy take vows of obedience, creating a system where speaking out against abuse can end a priest's career. The conversation takes a deeply personal turn as Heather recounts her husband Paul's near-death experience and the beautiful community response that surrounded them—creating a painful contrast with how that same community has failed abuse survivors. Heather's story highlights how even good people who demonstrate Christ-like love in crisis can become complicit in institutional failure when confronting systemic abuse, raising profound questions about spiritual transformation and institutional integrity.In the second patron-only half of the episode, Heather details her disillusionment with Christian leadership after experiencing narcissistic abuse from a bishop she trusted, explores her crisis of faith in light of these betrayals, and reflects on finding new pathways to spiritual connection despite her profound grief and disappointment.Previous Episode with Heather | “Bible Truths,” “Sanctified Common Sense,” & “Evangelical Insta-Trust: (#123)Highlights12:26 Advocacy Work and Institutional Breakdown24:19 Challenges within the Anglican Church of North America45:05 Navigating Spiritual Abuse and Betrayal___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

​​In this episode of You Have Permission, I speak with indie Christian recording artist John Mark McMillan and filmmaker Thomas Torrey about Thomas's film "Long December," which explores the story of a musician facing the painful question of when to let go of creative dreams. Thomas shares how the film emerged from his own career crisis when a major project collapsed during COVID, while John Mark reflects on his journey from simply wanting to "pay bills playing music" to desiring Grammy nominations. We explore the psychology behind creative ambition, discussing core beliefs about success, the importance of defining what "arrival" looks like rather than chasing moving targets, and the stoic philosophy that "the work has to be the reward." We wrestle with how identity becomes entangled with creative pursuits and the challenge of finding meaning and contentment whether or not our dreams materialize as we initially imagined.Long December Film | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17633766/John Mark McMillan's Music | https://open.spotify.com/artist/0T1KC0OHfbRO0O5bNH2tek?si=aj6GHoLIRxmLD0Un5XQf6w___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Laird Edman, Myron Penner, and Kristen Tideman join me to talk about how psychological science has transformed our faith. We discuss how the cognitive science of religion has allowed us to hold theological claims with an open hand while deepening our appreciation for religious practice. Myron discovers that seeing religion as human-made deepens his compassion for believers of all kinds while Kristen's academic journey transforms her from would-be apologist to humble truth-seeker. Laird explains how efforts to 'debunk' religion actually strengthened his faith, and I reveal the counterintuitive way my research on spiritual abuse reinforced my appreciation for religious community.  Our conversation weaves through topics including post-hoc justifications for behavior, religious anxiety, church community, and the natural human propensity for spiritual experience—ultimately showing how psychological understanding can enrich rather than diminish religious life.In the second Patron-only half of the conversation, we discussed church community, intergenerational relationships, embodied cognition, and the evolution of agency detection mechanisms.Highlights:02:52 Cognitive Science of Religion: Understanding Belief12:07 Psychological Insights and Spiritual Growth21:08 Religion as a Human Construct41:19 The Role of Humility in Belief SystemsYHP Episodes Mentioned:Episode 288 | Dan Made His Own EnneagramEpisode 253 | Still Christian & Way Humble About It!Episode 191 | All About Ritual (with Laird Edmund)Episode 80 | Myron is a Demon Skeptic (with Myron Penner)Episode 41 | Cognitive Science & Religious Belief (For Beginners) (with Myron Penner)Episode 39 | Psychedelics & Other "Spiritual Technologies" (with Sarah Lane Ritchie)___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, Dan sits down with legal scholar and author Jeffrey Rosen to discuss his book The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined America. Starting from Rosen's background as a secular Jew who studied Puritan theology at Harvard, the conversation weaves through classical virtues and their relevance today to the American founders' surprisingly ecumenical approach to religion and morality. They explore the tension between Christian concepts of perfect holiness and classical virtue ethics' focus on finding the golden mean, with Rosen even sharing a song he wrote to help remember Aristotle's virtue framework. The discussion reveals how the founders were more interested in finding common ground between different wisdom traditions than enforcing rigid doctrine, leading to insights about religious freedom and the First Amendment. Throughout, they examine how ancient ideas about self-mastery and virtue remain relevant for navigating our modern pluralistic world, with practical applications from Benjamin Franklin's virtue journaling as well as contemporary approaches to living well.Highlights19:56 The Power of the Mind and Self-Mastery27:35 Exploring Classical Virtues34:17 The Golden Mean and Emotional Moderation47:04 Navigating Pluralism and Moral Flexibility52:23 The Founders' Vision of Virtue and FreedomJeffery's New Book | The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined Jeffery on X | @RosenjeffreyBooks Mentioned:My Voice Will Go With You___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, I talk with Stephen Keech, frontman of metalcore band Haste the Day, about maintaining Christian faith in a scene where many have moved away from religious identification. Stephen shares his journey from rigid evangelical beliefs to a more nuanced, "malleable" faith that has allowed him to adapt while keeping his core convictions. We explore why Christian bands thrived in heavy music (the natural synergy between spiritual warfare themes and metal's intensity), the market forces that initially pushed bands to identify as "Christian," and the judgmental culture that drove many artists away. Stephen discusses his transformative encounters that challenged his inherited viewpoints, his shift toward Eastern Orthodox theology, and how fatherhood redefined his purpose after leaving the "ministry platform" of being in a Christian band. Throughout, we examine what it means to be "Christ-like" in today's polarized world while acknowledging the complexity of maintaining faith in creative spaces increasingly skeptical of Christianity.Stephen's Website | Stephenkeech.comStephen on Instagram | @stephenkeechEpisode Mentioned:Episode #118 | I Don't Believe in that God: Joey Holman Episode #139 | Christian Heavy Music: Theology, Attachment, PowerHighlights:02:58 The Evolution of Christian Metalcore11:52 The Tension Between Faith and Performance23:57 The Malleability of Faith51:00 Experiential Faith: Tent Poles vs. Picket Fences01:09:48 The Moral Dilemma of Modern Christianity___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Comedian Jenny Zigrino joins me to discuss comedy and mystical spirituality. Drawing from her background in Reform Judaism and early exposure to yoga, Jenny articulated how she combines traditional religious practices with what she calls "woo" elements like moon rituals and meditation. We discussed the relationship between scientific and spiritual frameworks, with Jenny making interesting arguments about celestial influences on human behavior and challenging my skepticism about astrology with observations about the moon's documented effects on Earth. The conversation took a more personal turn when she shared about her sister's passing, leading to thoughtful reflections on how people use spiritual frameworks to process loss and find meaning in tragedy.The Patron-only second half of our conversation centered on a detailed exploration of tarot cards, including a live reading for my podcast's future, as well as a broader philosophical discussion about consciousness, death, and the limits of human knowledge.Highlights:08:48 Exploring Reform Judaism and Spiritual Practices14:45 Understanding Tarot and Its Therapeutic Value19:02 The Influence of Religion on Personal Beliefs26:13 The Nature of God and SufferingJenny's Website | Jennyzigrino.com___________________________________________Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKochFaith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankochEmail about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: youhavepermissionpodcast@gmail.comYHP Patron-only FB group: tinyurl.com/ycvbbf98Website: www.dankochwords.com/yhp.htmlJoin Dan's email list: www.dankochwords.com/Artwork by sprungle.co/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Dr. Terry Shoemaker, a Professor of Religious Studies at Arizona State University, explores the fascinating parallels between religion and sports. He discusses how rituals, devotions, identities, and communities intertwine in both realms. From the spirited gatherings of Arsenal fans to family connections through college football, Terry reveals how sports fulfill social needs similar to those of religion, forging bonds and creating transcendent experiences. This conversation challenges listeners to reflect on the shared rituals and identities that define their lives.

Philosopher Michelle Panchuk, an expert in the philosophy of religion and feminist philosophy, joins the discussion on the troubling 'just world hypothesis.' She uncovers how this belief can distort spiritual teachings, implying that those who feel abandoned by God must be spiritually inadequate. Michelle highlights the impact of this idea on survivors of spiritual abuse and examines historical narratives like Job's, which challenge notions of deserved suffering. The conversation also touches on the neurobiology of spiritual experiences and the commercialization of spirituality.

In a thought-provoking discussion, Chuck DeGroat, an expert on narcissism in church contexts, sheds light on the complex dynamics of narcissism within religious communities. He differentiates between narcissistic traits and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, emphasizing the impact of trauma on behavior. The conversation delves into how narcissistic leadership thrives across the theological spectrum and the resulting collective defensive postures within congregations. Using Mars Hill Church as a case study, Chuck highlights the dangers of a combative cultural mentality that undermines empathy and authentic connections.