

The Way Out Is In
Plum Village
This podcast series is aimed at helping us to transcend our fear and anger so that we can be more engaged in the world in a way that develops love and compassion.
Thich Nhat Hanh’s calligraphy ‘The Way Out Is In” highlights that the way out of any difficulty is to look deeply within, gain insights and then put them into practice.
"The Way Out is In" is co-hosted by Brother Phap Huu, Thich Nhat Hanh's personal attendant for 17 years and the abbot of Plum Village's Upper Hamlet, and Jo Confino, who works at the intersection of personal transformation and systems change.
The podcast is co-produced by the Plum Village App and Global Optimism, with support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation.
Thich Nhat Hanh’s calligraphy ‘The Way Out Is In” highlights that the way out of any difficulty is to look deeply within, gain insights and then put them into practice.
"The Way Out is In" is co-hosted by Brother Phap Huu, Thich Nhat Hanh's personal attendant for 17 years and the abbot of Plum Village's Upper Hamlet, and Jo Confino, who works at the intersection of personal transformation and systems change.
The podcast is co-produced by the Plum Village App and Global Optimism, with support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Feb 29, 2024 • 1h 41min
Ripening Moment by Moment (Episode #64)
Welcome to episode 64 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.
This episode is the first to be recorded live in front of an audience, in the Still Water Meditation Hall of Plum Village, France, during a retreat, rather than in Thay’s Sitting Still hut.
Together, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino explore the Buddhist concept of ripening, or the Fourth Dharma Seal of Plum Village: the understanding that the care, love, attention, and commitment we put into what’s important in life take time to ripen, and that we shouldn’t expect instant results.
Brother Phap Huu starts off by introducing the first Three Dharma Seals and why Thay created them, before digging deeper into the Fourth Dharma Seal, the main theme of this episode; the process of ripening; the life journey of the practice; and much more.
Jo brings examples of lifelong journeys of forgiveness, and explores trust versus control, dharma rain, and more.And: how can we all apply this practice of ripening to our own lives?
The episode ends with a short meditation guided by Brother Phap Huu.
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
The Way Out Is In – Live recording informationhttps://wakeuplondon.org/thewayoutisin/
‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village
Sutras: ‘Discourse on the Dharma Seal & the Three Doors of Liberation’https://plumvillage.org/library/sutras/discourse-on-the-dharma-seal-the-three-doors-of-liberationInterbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterbeingThe Way Out Is In: ‘The Three Doors of Liberation (Episode #18)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/the-three-doors-of-liberation-episode-18
Dharma Talks: ‘Three Doors of Liberation’ https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/three-doors-of-liberation-br-phap-khi-italian-retreat-2018-05-01/
‘The Doors of Liberation’https://www.lionsroar.com/the-doors-of-liberation-may-2014/
Mahayanahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MahayanaDharma Talks: ‘Right View: Understanding the Roots of Our True Happiness’https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/right-view-understanding-the-roots-of-our-true-happiness
Old Path White Cloudshttps://plumvillage.org/books/old-path-white-clouds-2
Fragrant Palm Leaves https://plumvillage.org/books/1998-neo-ve-cua-y-fragrant-palm-leaves
Sister Chan Khonghttps://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khongSister Lang Nghiemhttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sr-lang-nghiem
Sister True Dedicationhttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sister-hien-nghiem
Quotes
“When we practice meditation and mindfulness to come home to the here and now, we start to discover that the present moment is the only moment in which we can be alive. And the present moment embraces the past as well as creating the future.”
“If we don’t have darkness, the light won’t have a chance to appear.”
“It is impossible to physically go back to the past, but I can bring the past into the here and now, and heal it by being right here, right now. By this present moment, I am creating a new path.”
“The world is created by our mind.”
“The insight of ripening allows us to understand that the path of practice is a wonderful journey, and that it takes time and space for things to mature, for things to transform, for things to heal. When we hear about ripening, we may think of a tree – say, an orange tree. It takes time for the seed to be planted. For the roots to deepen. For the tree and its leaves and flowers to grow. Even when the fruit appears, it takes time to ripen. And so our practice can be viewed as a journey of ripening.”
“Each thing we say, each thing we think, each thing we do, ripples out. I love that image of a pond or a big lake where you throw in a stone and see the ripples spread in every direction. And even when you can’t really see them, they’re still there in a subtle way, stretching out further and further.”
“The learning journey is endless.”
“If you know how to suffer, you suffer less.”
“If we take away the need for the outcome and are instead just present for people, then life can show up fully.”
“The Buddha said that the dharma is like fine-tuning an instrument for our path. If we are too intense, too rigid, too extreme, we won’t go the distance. The string might snap because there’s too much effort, there’s too much intensity. But if we’re too lazy, and are just daydreaming about what can be, then the string is loose and doesn’t play the the sound that’s needed.”

Feb 16, 2024 • 1h 33min
Shining Light (Episode #63)
Welcome to episode 63 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.
In this episode, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino explore ‘shining light’. This deep-looking practice, established in the Plum Village community, allows monastics to share and receive feedback, so that they can learn and grow together, and better understand each other.
Fresh from a shining light session, Brother Phap Huu offers insights into the practice and its evolution over the years, while Jo brings insights from feedback systems in the lay communities. Their conversation touches upon radical transparency, power dynamics, generating joy and happiness in the sangha, the practice of gratitude, the importance of language in the process of growth, bringing this shining light into the everyday, and much more.
Enjoy!
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
‘Shining the Light’https://www.parallax.org/mindfulnessbell/article/shining-the-light/
‘The Practice of Gratitude’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-practice-of-gratitude
Interbeinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing
Sutras: ‘Discourse on the Dharma Seal & the Three Doors of Liberation’https://plumvillage.org/library/sutras/discourse-on-the-dharma-seal-the-three-doors-of-liberation
‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village
Bhikkhuhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu
Quotes
“Meditation on offering guidance. Lord Buddha and teachers over many generations, today we have a chance to practice offering guidance to our brothers, sisters, and friends. We know that in spirit, we are all part of one sangha, that our flesh and bones are also part of one sangha. Therefore, we are aware that offering guidance to another is offering guidance to ourselves. We vow to use all of our love and understanding in order to practice offering guidance. We promise that every word we speak will come from the good intention of wanting to have a correct view about the person to whom guidance is being offered. We vow not to let our anger, sadness, and prejudice wrongly influence our opinion. We promise that every word we speak will come from love, because offering guidance to one is also offering guidance to many. We are aware that this practice will offer benefits to each of us. Dear Buddha and ancestral teachers, please support us in our wholehearted effort to successfully offer guidance today.”
“The essence of this [practice] lies in real friendship or in real relationships. According to my understanding and experience of relationships, they require the time and space to acknowledge the flowers, as well as to support one another when we see a particular negative habit or tendency. This may be a viewpoint, or a recurring action. And if you don’t fix it, or if you don’t support the other person to change it, it will grow.”
“When you hear something as simple as, ‘When you smile, brother, you make the whole room smile’, that’s a wonderful quality [to be told that you have]. I received this [complement] when I was a young novice. And I’d never experienced that before: being acknowledged for a simple action that can help brighten the room. And that became one of the threads in the fabric of who I am, and I always remember that [complement] when I smile. So shining light can water the seed that helps the wonderful characteristics of a human being grow and develop.”
“Freedom is freedom from something.”
“My life is my message.”

Jan 4, 2024 • 1h 59min
The Heart of Meditation – Part Two (Episode #62)
In this podcast, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino discuss the 16 exercises of mindful breathing. They explore topics such as nurturing positive feelings, understanding mental formations, and reflecting on emotions. They also delve into concepts like aimlessness, liberation, and realizing our true nature. The speakers provide practical tips for applying meditation exercises in a busy city life. Overall, the podcast offers insightful teachings from Thich Nhat Hanh's Buddhist philosophy.

Dec 28, 2023 • 1h 55min
The Heart of Meditation – Part One (Episode #61)
Guest, Sister True Dedication, joins host and others to discuss the sixteen exercises of mindful breathing and their application in daily life. They explore the challenges and benefits of meditation, the power of mindful breathing, and the importance of being fully present. Stories about Thich Nhat Hanh's meditation practice and personal experiences are shared, making for an insightful and engaging conversation.

10 snips
Dec 14, 2023 • 1h 31min
32 Words to Create Harmonious Relationships (Episode #60)
Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh's 32 words for harmonious relationships are discussed in this episode. Topics include generating presence, intentional practices, being a refuge for people, two-way communication, calligraphy as energy change, and Thay's favorite mantra. The episode ends with a mindful recap of the mantras.

Nov 20, 2023 • 1h 29min
Transforming Generational Suffering and Hatred (Episode #59)
In this podcast, Brother Phap Huu and Jo Confino discuss conflicts in the world, focusing on the war in the Middle East. They explore Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings on conflict, pain, and the path to peace. They share insights on not taking sides, deep listening, and transforming conflict. They also discuss Thay's legacy of organizing joint retreats for Palestinians and Israelis. The chapter highlights the importance of gratitude, small acts of kindness, and our own true presence of peace. The podcast ends with a guided meditation and expressions of gratitude to the listeners.

Sep 28, 2023 • 1h 12min
Healing Body and Mind (Episode #58)
Welcome to episode 58 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.
In this episode, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach and journalist Jo Confino talk about healing the body. Brother Phap Huu is back in Plum Village, five weeks after undergoing surgery on one of his knees, ready to discuss dealing with ill health after 21 years as a practitioner of mindfulness. How can we accept what is going on in our bodies but also heal and be present?
The conversation touches upon many relevant topics, such as deep endurance of pain and suffering; being mindful of your body and coming home to it; recognizing ‘the fear’; Thich Nhat Hanh’s journey of being in hospital and dealing with health issues (as recalled by his attendants); accepting the present moment; learning to be teachers; impermanence; and more.
Thank you for listening. Enjoy!
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
Gatha Poemshttps://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/extended-practises
‘How to Dwell Happily in the Present Moment’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjfGvC-55GQ
Stepping Into Freedomhttps://plumvillage.org/books/stepping-into-freedom
‘The Five Earth Touchings’https://plumvillage.org/key-practice-texts/the-five-earth-touchings Sister True Dedicationhttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/sister-hien-nghiem
Brother Phap Linhhttps://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/brother-phap-linh
Neural pathwayhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_pathway
‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’ https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village
Quotes
“In Buddhism, dying is not just the moment when we breathe our last breath. Because dying – the ‘no birth, no death’ – is the insight that there’s always birth and there’s always death in every moment. And that’s why we are ever changing and recognizing that we have to learn to let go of everything we hold dear – even our health. Our true belongings are our actions of body, speech, and mind.”
“It’s the cultivation of the practice that allows you – in this difficult time [ill health], when there’s so much energy in the opposite direction – to pull back and rest in that place.”
“The only moment we have in life is the present moment. The past will become a memory, will become lessons, will become a legacy. And the future is not yet here. So all we have is the present moment.”
“The present moment always teaches us to accept, let go, and embrace and dance with what we have.”

Sep 14, 2023 • 2h 3min
Mindful Activism: From Anxiety to Agency (Episode #57)
Climate activist Clover Hogan joins the hosts to discuss activism in times of polycrisis, empowering young activists, and turning despair into fuel for change. They explore the emotional journey of a young activist, balancing self-care with urgent activism, practicing mindfulness, and cultivating love and wisdom at Plum Village. Hogan shares her journey from burnout to mindful activism, navigating self-imposed pressures, and recognizing dedication within Force of Nature. They also discuss youth involvement, maintaining mindfulness practices post-retreat, engaging with power and emotions in activism, and promoting podcast subscriptions.

Aug 24, 2023 • 1h 36min
Caring for Children, Caring for the Child Inside (Episode #56)
Welcome to episode 56 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.In this episode, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach and journalist Jo Confino talk about the annual family retreats at Plum Village (the one time when families visit with their children): how they came about, and how the dharma can touch the lives of children and teenagers. The presenters share their unique experiences of these retreats, and stories of transformation involving parents and children, including ones featuring Thich Nhat Hanh and his deep teachings and special understanding of the youngest practitioners. Going deeper, the conversation delves into ways to remain compassionate and continue to listen deeply when dealing with a child; collective energy and co-creating an environment for children; the insight of nondiscrimination; the art of slowing down and being present for your children; authority and separation; the fourteen mindfulness trainings; and more.
Plus, why do people bring their families to a Zen monastery in the south of France? Are mindful practitioners better parents?Brother Phap Huu further shares how the retreats are run, some popular mindfulness practices, and how monastics work with different age groups. Jo talks about generational pain and the importance of deepening our relationship with our children, at any age.The episode ends with ‘Practicing with the Five-Year-old in Me and in My Parents’, a recording of a meditation guided by Thich Nhat Hanh.
Thank you for listening. Enjoy!
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
Old Path White Cloudshttps://www.parallax.org/product/old-path-white-clouds-walking-in-the-footsteps-of-the-buddha/
The Organic Happy Farmhttps://plumvillage.org/community/happy-farm
‘The Pebble Meditation’https://plumvillage.org/articles/news/the-pebble-meditation
Looking Deeply: ‘Healing the Inner Child’https://plumvillage.org/articles/healing-the-inner-child
‘The Fourteen Mindfulness Trainings’https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/the-14-mindfulness-trainings
The Bodhisattva vowhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vow
Mahāyānahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana‘Practicing with the Five-Year-Old Child in Me and in My Parents’https://web.plumvillage.app/item/vToqvVSlq6hvFCjp3QUy
‘Practicing with the Child in Me (Guided Meditation)’https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG8OmTzmNW8
The Way Out Is In: ‘Healing Our Inner Child: Pathways to Embrace Our Suffering (Episode #10)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/healing-our-inner-child-pathways-to-embrace-our-suffering
Quotes
“Now that I reflect on my childhood, what were the gems in my upbringing? One that stands out very clearly is when my parents were in Plum Village, because somehow Plum Village energy and the creation of the space was developed together; everybody co-created the retreat and you got to be yourself. We weren’t competing to see who was more mindful, or who was going to become the Buddha first. Then everybody slowly un-layered all of the masks they were wearing, as well as starting to embrace and accept themselves. And that presence has a very deep impact on a child.”
“It does take a community to help a child grow.”
“When the Buddha became enlightened, the first thing he did was to create a community. And I would even say that the Buddha’s journey goes all the way back to the support of children.”
“Every action that Thay produced through body, speech, and mind was a transmission.”
“The baby may not understand the words, but they absorb the collective energy.”
“Be mindful of your thoughts. Be mindful of your speech. Be mindful of your presence, because it gives off an invisible transmission, just like radio signals that one can receive.”
“What is the meaning of life? It is to be present enough that we can love, that we can see our interconnectedness with all those around us. Your parents, your brother, your sister: even though, sometimes, they make you angry, deep down inside, you do love them. And maybe our whole life journey is not to learn about that, but to live the message of love.”
“Moments of care, moments for being with others, are also time for oneself. And when you shift that narrative, your energy changes; suddenly, your love becomes boundless. You are channeling and practicing non-self and you’re also practicing selflessness. And that is one of the deepest wisdoms of Buddhism.”
“I’m holding this pebble, and if it represents a good deed and I throw it in the pond, where I know it will create ripples, then it seems that my good deeds will have a similar impact. So it is important to cultivate good deeds.”
“Children are a wonderful bell of mindfulness, because they press all of our buttons. Because they often break the rules in a way that adults don’t with each other. They sometimes speak truths that are uncomfortable and that we don’t want to hear.”
“Unless something is healed, it gets passed on, because the next child will witness that pain and soak it up. They either think it’s normal behavior, or they try to swallow it to take it away from their parents, because they want their parents to be happy. That’s their key wish: for their parents to be happy, not for themselves to be happy. When people recognize that their own healing also heals the past, that’s a great motivator; they’re actually healing the wound that was felt in their parents, their grandparents, or their great-grandparents. And then they’re changing the future, especially for their own children.”
“The heart of mindfulness is being in the present moment.”
“We heal the past in the present moment.”

Aug 3, 2023 • 1h 30min
Spiritual Journey: No Quick Fixes (Episode #55)
Welcome to episode 55 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.
In this episode, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach and journalist Jo Confino discuss spiritual journeys, why they take a lifetime, and why there are no quick fixes on the spiritual path. But how does this fit into busy lives and the instant answers and results we have become accustomed to? They also touch upon the difficulties of maintaining the practice, the reason there are no certifications for mindfulness, and why a retreat is not enough. And what type of happiness do you most want to generate in this life?
Brother Phap Huu shares insights from both Buddhist teachings and recent Plum Village retreats where he interacted with families and teenagers – beginners on the spiritual path – and suggests essential practical steps for integrating the practice of mindfulness into busy schedules.The episode ends with a short meditation guided by Brother Phap Huu.
Thank you for listening.Enjoy!
Co-produced by the Plum Village App:https://plumvillage.app/
And Global Optimism:https://globaloptimism.com/
With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/
List of resources
The Way Out Is In: ‘Engaged Buddhism: Applying the Teachings in Our Present Moment (Episode #9)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/engaged-buddhism-applying-the-teachings-in-our-present-moment
The Way Out Is In: ‘Regeneration and Musical Inspiration: The North American Tour (Episode #53)’https://plumvillage.org/podcast/regeneration-and-musical-inspiration-the-north-american-tour-episode-53
‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village
‘The Pebble Meditation’https://plumvillage.org/articles/news/the-pebble-meditation
Hollyhockhttps://hollyhock.ca/
The Bodhisattva vowhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vow
Quotes
“If Buddhism is not engaged, it is not Buddhism.”
“Mindfulness is always mindfulness, first of all, of suffering. That’s why we practice. Because, to understand life, there always has to be an object for us to reflect on.”“Thay always says that walking meditation is not about arriving at a destination, but to arrive in the ultimate, which is the freedom of the now.”
“Suffering, as a noble truth, teaches us the values of life and allows us to know what peace is. If you only live in peace, you don’t have gratitude for the wonderful conditions that you have. But if we meet suffering, it reminds us of the life that we’ve experienced and the life that we want to create together.”
“When you look at the great arc of history, the idea of a quick fix falls apart very quickly. It seems ridiculous. A quick fix to what? To the millions of years of lives that have come before, which are in us?”
“The Buddha said happiness and suffering are two truths that always go together. As long as there’s that thick mud, there can be some flowers there.”
“What is the world made out of? Each and every one of us. What is the collective consciousness made out of? Each and every one of us. What is the collective habit made out of? Each and every one of us.”