Spill The Ink

Many businesses have spent the past year navigating the increasing use of artificial intelligence in the workplace. Law firms are especially cautious due to lingering questions about the legal implications of using AI, particularly related to confidentiality and privacy concerns. Meanwhile, many professionals are exploring how AI might enhance their expertise and simplify workloads.  Jessica Aries is one of them.  Jessica is a seasoned legal marketer and founder of By Aries, a digital marketing agency specializing in the legal sector. She frequently talks about how law firms can use AI tools to enhance their operations, sharing her insight on social media and at various conferences. In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” Michelle Calcote King invites Jessica to reflect on the evolution of AI tools for legal marketers. They discuss the risks and best practices professionals should keep in mind when using them. They also talk about their favorite AI tools and analyze how AI is changing before our eyes. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Jessica Aries and what is By Aries The evolution of AI tools, particularly for law firms How your firm can strategically leverage AI to improve workflows The risks and drawbacks of using AI as a legal professional Best practices for AI writing prompts Why smart legal marketers make the AI to ask them questions The implications surrounding watermarked AI content  A shortlist of Michelle and Jessica’s favorite AI tools About our featured guest Jessica Aries, J.D., LL.M., is a lawyer turned digital marketer who helps lawyers simplify their digital marketing to build consistent visibility and profitable practice. A former in-house legal marketer at some of the largest and fastest-growing firms in the world, Jessica understands the pressures lawyers face and strives to help them perfect their digital presence to build relationships, develop new opportunities and transform their approach to marketing in an easy and approachable way. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out By Aries Follow By Aries on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram and YouTube Connect with Jessica Aries on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Jessica Aries: AI is gonna amplify the type of marketer you are, going to amplify the type of lawyer you are. So if you're one who's going to cut corners, it's going to really exacerbate that. But if you're someone who's really going to push the tool and challenge the tool, it's going to amplify that, too, and make you a better marketer. [00:00:21]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [00:00:38] Michelle Calcote King: Hey everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.  As everyone knows, artificial intelligence has been the topic of conversation in 2023. We're all sort of navigating what it means for our jobs and how best to leverage these tools. For law firms, it can be somewhat of a tricky conversation. But some people in the field have taken a lead on this and have embraced AI and are doing really interesting things with that. Jessica Aries is one of those people. I was really fortunate to attend a session of hers at the Legal Marketing Association Midwest Regional Conference, and she was full of useful tips. Welcome to the show, Jessica.  [00:01:28] Jessica Aries: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.  [00:01:31] Michelle Calcote King: I know you're a former attorney and you started your agency after a decade of working in-house at law firms. So let's start with you telling me a little bit about who you are and your firm.  [00:01:41] Jessica Aries: By Aries launched really in the pandemic when, like many, I was furloughed and had to figure it out in a hot second. I actually put up a LinkedIn post that went semi-viral within our industry where I basically just put up like a headshot and said like, "Hey, I'm a COVID-19 job seeker." And it resulted in this influx of leads to my now agency. At the time it was me working in digital marketing because there was a real gap in the market at the time. As you remember, many firms hadn't quite fully embraced digital, maybe not social media the way that they had, and social media really built my business. So a lot of what we do is social media strategy and social media marketing. We focus predominantly on LinkedIn, but we have migrated into video marketing lately and doing a lot more around new platforms, emerging platforms like TikTok and Reels and Facebook Reels. So really exploring those areas. And with that has come this need for really learning what AI can do to kind of advance and make simpler the the workflows that we had in our agency.  That's really how I got into AI. I was just looking to make things faster for us and find a way to really elevate what we were already doing and I thought, why not test it out? That's another algorithm. We're playing with the algorithms all the time. Why not test another robot? So that's how it came about. And so my agency predominantly does that. We work with lawyers and law firms to enhance and perfect their digital brands online using social media strategies and video marketing strategies. [00:03:10] Michelle Calcote King: I love that. I follow some of your videos. We do the same thing. We like to walk the talk and really do what we do for our clients for ourselves and when people ask me how we've grown, I say, "Well we do the same kind of marketing that we do for our clients," and that's really built our reputation and helped us grow, but I think you do a really good job of that. I followed you on LinkedIn for a while and your videos are especially very good. I know the law is a more conservative industry, but the way people communicate is very much so driven by a lot of these kind of trends from TikTok and things like that. My employees forced me to get on TikTok and to learn the styles more and understand, you know, cause videos are really kind of taking over social media. So yeah, love that.  So let's talk about AI tools. I know AI has been around for a while, right. And I think that was a point you made in your presentation. This stuff isn't new. It's actually, you know, being more and more incorporated, but it sort of feels like it came out of nowhere this year. How are you seeing the industry take on AI? What have been the reactions you're seeing? [00:04:11] Jessica Aries: Well, I think like anything new, there's always a lot of fear, a lot of trepidation. Like, "Am I going to get myself into trouble with my bar license?" I mean, I actually have people who ask me, "Do you write policies for firms?" And I'm like, "Actually, I try to avoid that," just because I worry about the risk of it looking in some way, shape or form in the future like I'm giving some sort of legal advice. So I'm very cognizant of the fact that in our industry in particular we have to be careful on what we're adopting and what we're taking on and how we're using client data, how we're using firm data. For me in particular, I really wanted to explore just how we internally in my agency could better leverage AI because I saw a huge opportunity. But beyond that, I saw the kind of evolution. I had played around with some of the tools that were predecessors to ChatGPT before. I'm blanking on the one right now that I use the most, but I had played with a lot of them before, had seen how some of them were-- [00:05:04] Michelle Calcote King: Like Jasper?  [00:05:05] Jessica Aries: Yes, Jasper I had played with! I saw kind of how it worked, where it had issues. And so when ChatGPT launched, which I think is really what most people think of GenAI now. Their first immediate response is ChatGPT and that's because when it became available to us, it was like taking that functionality of Jasper and giving it to us all for free. So for us, a lot of it was me trying to understand and kind of break it. I'm one of those people I love to play with it until I break it. So it was kind of challenging. What could I put into it? What would it give me back? What kind of prompts resulted in the best responses? And then how far could I take it? So I think that's where firms in particular haven't yet tested it as much and someone like me who loves to break it first is probably kind of refreshing to them to say, "Hey, I've already broken it. Here's the boundaries. Here's the pitfalls. Here's the things you don't want to step in and here's the ways to protect yourself from that."  That's really how I got into it and how I've approached it. And the way I'm seeing people in the industry now look at it is they are really wanting to understand what it can do for them, how it can impact their existing workflows, especially now that some of the kinks are getting worked out. As well as they better understand the terms of service, they better understand what kind of information they should and shouldn't be putting into it. As well as there's new tools and new advancements and even the different tiers of offerings that now allow for you to keep some of that information that would be confidential, truly confidential. There's this evolution I think right now of firms now being more interested in it and wanting to understand how they can leverage it, knowing that they don't have to jeopardize their bar license to use it.  [00:06:42] Michelle Calcote King: I do want to get into the risks, but let's start with the opportunities. What are the best opportunities for law firms and their marketing professionals with AI? What can AI do for them?  [00:06:53] Jessica Aries: Well, streamline a lot of the work we used to do in our marketing departments. I came from in-house in a marketing department where I always felt like there was more work than there was time to do all of the work. You could literally work 12-hour days and still never be done because there was another lawyer who needed your help with something. And so where I see the biggest opportunity is taking those things that are huge time sucks from our day and simplifying them. Something as simple as I have a client alert that's going out via email, I can simplify the process of creating the social media post that's going to go, the subject line, the lead in to the actual article of the client alert that I might post on our blog or somewhere else. All of that can be simplified and leveraged with ChatGPT to just make things easier and speed up that process.  But then beyond that, I think it's a great auditing tool, especially when you're asked to create a new campaign or a new idea for, let's say an office launch or the opportunity of a new industry group that's joining your firm. You can use it as a great brainstorming tool and just something to kind of verify that you didn't miss anything. It's a great way for you as a great marketer to just enhance what you're already doing. So I think there's just a lot of opportunities there, but I do like to say, too, the one negative drawback of ChatGPT or using something like that is you really have to already have those marketing skills before you start using it, because I think it amplifies the good or the bad. So if you're a great marketer, it's going to amplify that you're a great marketer. If you're not a strong marketer, it's going to amplify the fact that you don't really know your stuff. And so you've really got to spend that time honing those skills to be a great marketer first before you can really use the tool to its full advantage. That's how I'm seeing firms really leverage it and I'm seeing the great marketers get even better using it.  [00:08:46] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, it's interesting when it first came on the scene, everyone had this like immediate fear that it would replace them, you know? And I sort of likened it to — cause I'm old enough to remember, you know, when social media came on the scene and Google and I was working back before there was an Internet — and it really just is an evolution in our work and learning how to use the tools available to us to be better at what we're already doing. I mean, surely it will replace some of those very mundane tasks that, honestly, most of us graduate out of and we're going to skip that level now. So absolutely.  Let's look at best practices when using AI. In your presentation, you kind of went through a case study and you actually had AI ask you questions. I loved that thought. But let's talk in general, best practices for using AI in your day-to-day work.  [00:09:38] Jessica Aries: My first best practice is to give AI a job. So before you sit down and just start asking it questions, I think it's important to tell the robot who it's supposed to be because sometimes we sit down and we'll just write a question to it and so it's going to pull from all over, you know, it's database of language when it responds and sometimes that's when you get the worst responses. So if you can help the robot understand what role it's supposed to be playing in this conversation, that helps you a lot. So I love to start with saying like, "Hey, you're a marketing expert at a law firm." So you're not just a marketing expert in e-comm. You're now a marketing expert at a law firm. And I think helping it set the stage of understanding what role it's supposed to play.  And then I, as you mentioned, like to have it ask me questions about me or my business or my client or whoever I'm trying to solve the problem for. And that's where I think you really get into understanding do you know enough information as a marketer to really utilize this tool? Because it's going to ask questions like, "Who is your target audience? What geography are you trying to target? What are their pain points? What are the issues? What are the objections they have when they're talking to you in a consultation?" And I think as marketers, we don't always have access to all of that information unless we go back to the lawyers and say, "Hey, so what were the objections that someone gave you the last time you pitched them in a meeting? What were their reasons why they didn't hire you?" And that makes you actually be a better marketer to say, "Why haven't I ever asked these questions before and thought about that when creating content or when creating messaging for our firm?” [00:11:12] Michelle Calcote King: I'm a big fan of being a good questioner. I did a lot of speaking for a while on the art of knowledge extraction because I do think that is a critical role as a marketer because we can't know what we don't know. Being good at drawing out the right information is a skill. A lot of people on my team are former journalists. And I find that a really important skill. So being able to utilize AI to help with that, to help that process is a really cool functionality.  Well, let's talk about risks. We talked about best practices. What are those things to avoid and risks to be aware of? [00:11:44] Jessica Aries: Anytime you're putting anything confidential into something that has a terms of service that says it's discoverable: Red flag. Like anyone who's worked in legal marketing long enough, that's a red flag, right? Understanding the terms of service of anything that you're using. Making sure you understand who owns the IP rights of the output, that's an important part, too. I did IT and privacy law. As someone who worked in that area, privacy, is a huge concern too, right? Are you putting information in there that's private information that shouldn't be shared? Names of clients? Beyond just confidential, but also things that your clients wouldn't want you to have put into something that's discoverable, for whatever reason. So there's a lot of risks in that sense and so I think having a good understanding of what should be put into the tool, what's allowable, what's not allowable, but then beyond that, also just using your brain, right? If you wouldn't broadcast it across social media, then you probably shouldn't be broadcasting it within ChatGPT, especially if you're using the free version. If you don't have the enterprise version, or you're not using one of the other tools that's a closed system.  I know a lot of firms right now are building their own systems for that exact reason, or using tools like I heard of one called Claude that's more closed. Those are ones that, from my understanding, have that ability to kind of protect that data. So if you're wanting to use some of these tools and you're not ready to pay for the enterprise level of ChatGPT to have that production, maybe look at some of those like Claude or even building your own or partnering with someone who already has built one that will close it down for you.  [00:13:15] Michelle Calcote King: And can you talk a little bit about the fact that they are basically watermarking any content created by ChatGPT? What does that mean?  [00:13:23] Jessica Aries: I actually saw that that first came to light in an article I was reading-- so we write a monthly newsletter that talks about the latest things that are happening in social and digital media and marketing. And I saw a New York Times article that was talking about how these systems, they are created by a library of content that's uploaded into them and then digested, basically, and spit out. Well, that content has to be written by humans. And so the system doesn't want to have, you know, the people who created ChatGPT OpenAI, they do not want their system to be filled with AI-generated content. So what they're doing is they're watermarking the outputs that they're putting. They're putting the words in a certain order to be able to scan and be able to see, "Okay, this is AI-generated content," so they don't input back into the system content that was GenAI created. They have to preserve the integrity of their systems.  And so, you have to be really careful of representing that this content is something I wrote and is my intellectual property and yada yada yada without realizing that this is happening on the back end. They are watermarking this data, they are using it, certain word structures, so that it signifies to the system that that is not something that's human written, and thus doesn't corrupt their system; and could be used later in the future, it wouldn't surprise me if there's tools to be able to scan and tell us, then everyone, all of us, and out you, if you're claiming something's written by you, and is really AI-generated. [00:14:52] Michelle Calcote King: Fascinating. Which has implications then for copyright, I would assume.  [00:14:56] Jessica Aries: Oh, yeah. Copyright. Also, if you're claiming you're not using GenAI with your client's work, and you are, big, huge issue there. Your privacy policies, too. And, "Hello, privacy lawyer over here," is always very conscious of what you're saying your policy is and then how you're actually executing your workload. So you have to be really careful with all of those areas.  [00:15:20] Michelle Calcote King: So let's talk tools. What are some of your favorite tools that you recommend? So let's say you're a marketer at a law firm and you really haven't gotten into AI yet and you want to improve your workflow. What would be some of the tools you'd recommend they check out? [00:15:35] Jessica Aries: Well, so I always recommend that if you're a marketer working in-house, you ask if you're, first of all, allowed to use any firm data when creating marketing materials. If there's a policy, follow that.  Beyond that, if your firm's very strict and is like, "You can't use ChatGPT at all," then that's where I'd say, go to your personal profiles and things like LinkedIn and experiment with tools like ChatGPT. You know, test it out when writing your own LinkedIn bio and see what it gives you. Test it out with writing some LinkedIn posts to see what the outputs look like. Things like that.  If your firm allows you to use firm data, then there's a lot of different tools I would recommend playing with. The first one, obviously ChatGPT, which is the most popular, but I do recommend upgrading to ChatGPT-4. The outputs are so much better and it has a much larger memory. What that means is it can iterate on itself. You can have it ask you those questions, you can respond to those questions. It will recall what you had said in response to those so that you can get a better response in the iterations of your inputs and outputs. Which if you haven't used ChatGPT, go play with it so you can understand what I mean by that. It basically responds like you're chatting with someone. And so if you want a more sophisticated output, ChatGPT-4 has a better memory to be able to actually give you better outputs.  Beyond that, the other tools that I'm really loving, I love AI for data. So I'm a big user of wanting to analyze data and slice and dice it in different ways and I used to be one of those people who sat for long periods of time in pivot tables, slicing and dicing data to better understand what strategies are working for my clients, what aren't. And even the reporting that I'd get from some really advanced tools was never enough for me, so that's where something like ChatGPT with its plugin with I think it's code interpreter* will allow you to upload data and slice and dice it in different ways. So ChatGPT for sure. Beyond that, we do a ton of video content. So I'm using a lot of video tools like Video.ai is my favorite by far. If you have, you know, a lawyer who makes a lot of webinars and you want to slice and dice them into smaller snippets that can be used on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on wherever, whatever platform you want to put them on, Video.ai is my, my favorite tool. It'll add captions, it'll highlight the places that are, you know, best for potential engagement for you. So that's a tool I really love. And we use Descript a lot as well because we do so much video editing.  [00:18:08] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah we use that for our podcast and video as well. Yep.  [00:18:11] Jessica Aries: It's just so easy and it basically takes your video content and makes it like a Word document. And so you can edit your video content like a Word document whereas before having to open something like Adobe Premiere-- I mean, I have a multimedia design team that would do that, but it's still, like, just the opening of the application itself is a heavy lift on your computer. So to be able to use something like Descript is really the way to go if you're trying to edit and can even help do voiceovers and things like that. Those are some of my favorite tools and tools that I probably use every single-- actually I use them every single day in some way, shape or form, even though I'm not supposed to be editing my own videos, I'm always like, "Oh! I just want to adjust this."  [00:18:51] Michelle Calcote King: Right. You mentioned one that I played +around with, which I loved. I think it's called Crystal AI. I love personality tests and assessment. I just find them fascinating. And I stumbled upon Crystal a couple of years ago and just ran it on friends and a few of my employees and the accuracy was scary. Can you talk a little bit about that?  [00:19:11] Jessica Aries: Yeah, so that's part of the like LinkedIn tools, the business development side. In that presentation, I tried to think for the marketing and the BD side, cause I also used to work in business development. I actually managed BD tech for a global firm. And I just remember how I always craved more information. And so, some of the AI tools I had showcased, one was Crystal AI, which basically scans public LinkedIn profiles and gives you a high-level DiSC assessment on that person so you know how to approach communicating with them. If you haven't played with DiSC, anyone here who's like, "What's a DiSC assessment?" It's basically a personality assessment that will tell you how to have better conversations, what kind of information is going to resonate with people when you're talking to them. I'm a very visual person, so it always comes back with all these cues that when you're talking to me, visuals work better. But for others, it might be data, or it might be, you know, paragraphs, or it might be case studies. So tools like Crystal give you insights into the people who you're potentially pitching, which is very powerful.  Another tool that I love and use almost every day that I can't believe I didn't mention already is Taplio, which essentially works with LinkedIn and it's a tool that it has a lot of capabilities, but my favorite lately that it's launched is the ability to create content for you. GenAI-generated LinkedIn posts for you based on your past content. So it scans your past content and suggests different LinkedIn posts to share, and I use that one almost every day for idea generation. Now I do have to edit them. They're not perfect, but it's a great starting point and it saves me a ton of time. And they actually now just released a carousel generator, which is amazing. So if you've written a blog post or something and you don't have a graphic design team or you don't have-- graphic design doesn't have the time to create a carousel post for you, you can take the URL from your blog post, your article, whatever it is, and paste it into Taplio and it will generate a carousel post for you in your brand colors instantly, and then upload it to LinkedIn for you. It's crazy.  [00:21:13] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, that's wild. I remember Taplio from your presentation, especially the carousel functionality. That's fantastic.  Well, this has been fantastic. Is there any final thought around AI that you'd like to leave our listeners with?  [00:21:29] Jessica Aries: I think my biggest reminder and the thing that I actually started the presentation off with that you attended, but the thing that I'm becoming most known for is saying that AI is like makeup and the sense that it should enhance what you have. It shouldn't cover it up. So remember that AI is going to amplify the type of marketer you are, going to amplify the type of lawyer you are. So if you're one who's going to cut corners, it's going to really exacerbate that. But if you're someone who's really going to push the tool and challenge the tool, it's going to amplify that, too, and make you a better marketer. So use it to enhance what you're doing. Use it to enhance what you're doing in your legal work. And, you know, don't fall afoul of any of those confidentiality rules for your firm or those privacy rules for your clients.  [00:22:15] Michelle Calcote King: So we've been talking to Jessica Aries of By Aries. So if people wanted to get in touch with you and learn more, where's the best place for them to go?  [00:22:22] Jessica Aries: Well, I'm always on LinkedIn, I feel like every day. So please reach out via LinkedIn or my website's a great place. You can find my TikTok there, my reels, all my video content and YouTube is another great place. I make long form videos there, too, on different topics. So if you're someone who really likes to get gritty and digest a topic in full, check out our YouTube channel. That's @ByAries marketing.  [00:22:43] Michelle Calcote King: Thank you so much.  [00:22:45] Jessica Aries: Thank you. [00:22:45]: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes.

Architecture, engineering and construction firms are increasingly integrating video content into their marketing strategies. Thanks to smartphones, AEC firms don’t need expensive equipment or large production crews to create high-quality videos. Field professionals can now use their phones to capture on-site perspectives, resulting in authentic and engaging behind-the-scenes content. Jessica Whitlock, a studio leader at RS&H, was one of the trailblazers in her firm’s video initiative. She shares her experience launching the initiative in this episode of “Spill the Ink.” Michelle Calcote King interviews her about the role of employee-generated videos in supporting RS&H's brand and marketing efforts. They discuss how to get started, offer tips for shooting and editing great videos, and explore how to get buy-in from employees and clients. They also touch on must-have equipment and ways marketers can enhance collaboration with field professionals. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Jessica Whitlock and what is RS&H Why RS&H started creating videos for social media How they earned buy-in and rallied support from employees and clients to shoot on-site videos How to get busy field professionals to participate and contribute content How to train employees to shoot high-quality videos on-site  What equipment and apps are needed to shoot and produce videos How employee videos contribute to building RS&H’s company culture and brand Tips for enhancing collaboration between marketing and field professionals About our featured guest Jessica Whitlock, NCIDQ, CHID, IIDA, is a Healthcare Studio Leader at RS&H with over 11 years of experience in healthcare interior design, architecture and project management. She is a seasoned design professional with a bachelor’s degree in interior design. Jessica is NCIDQ Certified and holds a Florida Registration in Interior Design. She is also AAHID certified and a member of the International Interior Design Association, Women in Healthcare and Association of Medical Facility Professionals. Jessica’s experience ranges from acute care, outpatient care, behavioral healthcare, women’s specialty care and oncology care. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out RS&H Follow RS&H on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Jessica Whitlock on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Check out the videos mentioned in the episode: “A Day in the Life” and “Live On-Site with RS&H” Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Jessica Whitlock: We are a society that's looking for quick information and digesting it quickly. So how do we get them to stop scrolling? And it's really those 'Wow' moments in a very quick and digestive way, but also authentic. I really believe that the next chapter of marketing is showing things in a very authentic way. [00:00:20]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [00:00:37] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for professional services firms, including architecture, engineering and construction firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com. One of the great and unique things about the architecture, engineering and construction industry is that there are plenty of marketing visuals to work with. You know, there's schematics, construction sites, finished buildings, you name it. And with today's advanced technology in-the-field employees are one of your best resources for capturing pictures and videos that help us marketers tell the story that we need to tell. And really all your employees need is the smartphone in their pockets.  Today, we're talking to Jessica Whitlock. She's the Orlando studio leader at RS&H, and she's here to share a little bit about how her team is using employee videos to generate great content for the firm, and we might pick her brain on a few other topics, too. Thanks for being here today.  [00:01:36] Jessica Whitlock: Thank you. I'm excited.  [00:01:38] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. Well, let's start with, just tell me a little bit about your role at RS&H and your career.  [00:01:43] Jessica Whitlock: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am the Orlando Studio Leader for RS&H, and RS&H, we are an architecture, engineering and consulting firm. We're nationwide with headquarters in Jacksonville, Florida. We've been in business--  [00:01:54] Michelle Calcote King: that's where I'm based.  [00:01:55] Jessica Whitlock: Yeah, perfect. Yes. So, and we've been in business for over 80 years. So we really have that history and that trust with our clients. My background is actually in interior design, and then as I got to RS&H, it started to kind of flourish and go into different markets, which I'm super excited about. And then our Orlando office actually we focus most of our attention on healthcare. So my attention and for a majority of my career has always been healthcare, specifically for architecture.  [00:02:23] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. Yeah. Let's talk about getting employees engaged, and using their own footage for those marketing initiatives. Like I saw you've done a lot of, I think you call it "Live Onsite with RS&H." Just tell me a little bit about what you're doing and how it's been working so far.  [00:02:39] Jessica Whitlock: We've started this journey really recently and it sort of became a very organic way of how we kind of fell into it. So I was actually on-site for one of our projects that we were finishing up, and any architect or designer knows that as you go into the end of your project, you're pretty much on-site for multiple days in a row for about two weeks or more. And I was on-site during that time, and I was taking, of course, all my calls and marketing meetings from the site.  And one marketing meeting I had, I was on-site and I shared my camera and so they could see, you know, all the commotion and all of this stuff going on in the background, and they were just super intrigued. "Where are you? What's going on?" And so I actually picked up my laptop and just started to walk them around the project. In that moment was when we had this like, "Aha." This moment of, "Hmm. Well, we are this interested in it. I bet everyone else would be, too." And we started to talk about how we really don't see that kind of dynamic type of content from other architecture firms and how we could really use this to set ourselves apart. You know, RS&H we've also started kind of at the same time, some other initiatives around a very similar content and one is called "Mentor Minute," which is another content series that another one of our associates is creating. Just really quick videos on mentorship within the architecture and engineering industry to younger associates coming up. [00:04:00] Michelle Calcote King: Very cool.  [00:04:01] Jessica Whitlock: Yeah, and then RS&H also rolled out recently "A Day in the Life" where they follow their different associates around in different markets. You could be in buildings or you can be in transportation. And it's a really quick video. They let them know this is basically the day in the life of an engineer or an architect. So, we've recently started to see really good positive feedback from this type of, kind of, content movement on social media.  [00:04:23] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, it really is. Well, one, it's amazing. I just returned from a bucket list vacation in Egypt last week.  [00:04:29] Jessica Whitlock: Oh my gosh! That's amazing!  [00:04:31] Michelle Calcote King: It was amazing. You know, talk about like amazing visuals and everything, but it really is amazing to go on these vacations now and just use your phone, you know? There's no need for another camera. Because I'm old enough to remember, you know, having a bigger camera, and taking film to get printed and that kind of thing.  [00:04:48] Jessica Whitlock: And just hoping it turned out good. You're like, "I hope I got that picture I wanted." [00:04:51] Michelle Calcote King: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And not being able to check it, you know, right in the field. So what was your experience getting buy-in? Were there any concerns from either the marketing team or leadership? [00:05:02] Jessica Whitlock: So I think when it comes to buy-in, my experience has been based on relationships. The stronger your relationships are, the easier the buy-in is going to be, and that's for external and internal purposes. So I have a really strong relationship with our marketing team. Our marketing team is amazing. They don't silo themselves. They make sure they work with all of our different teams. And then when it comes to the client, we have really strong relationships with our clients. So getting buy in from them is also a really simple task. And this may not be the case for every single project or every single client, especially some of those projects that, you know, the information they don't want it to be public until later on. So there's only very specific projects we can, you know, make sure we do it with; make sure we're not breaking any type of NDAs or anything like that. But it's really more based on relationships than anything. [00:05:48] Michelle Calcote King: Got it. Yeah, that's smart. Well, and also having someone in your role who respects marketing, seems to really understand marketing and work well with them. That's critical to something like that.  [00:06:00] Jessica Whitlock: And typically the clients, you know, they're just as excited as we are. And so they're excited, they're usually like, "Yeah, let's do it!" And they want to push it through as well. So, we tend to have pretty good support in that aspect because we're all in the, you know, sharing the same boat and we all have the same outcome and value around it.  [00:06:20] Michelle Calcote King: That's what I always tell clients. I always say, "You'd be surprised at, you know, until you ask, you don't know." We have some clients that really want to protect that client relationship at all costs, which I understand. And so they might be a little fearful of asking, you know, "Can we shoot video? Can we do this?" My advice is you'd really be surprised how much they, too, want to share the story. And obviously there is a time and place when confidentiality is key. It might be some proprietary technology you don't want to show that kind of thing, but yeah, it's having that conversation. Do you give your team or have you done any kind of training to kind of make sure they're capturing the right thing? How do you kind of make sure you're getting what you want and they're delivering the kind of content that you want?  [00:07:03] Jessica Whitlock: That's an interesting question. When we first started this, you know, I'm not savvy when it comes to making different videos and things like that. But when marketing asked me to kind of start this campaign and this endeavor, I kind of went in full headfirst into the deep end because I was really behind it.  I started to work with them to learn how to quickly make these videos, which apps are going to be the most beneficial to me, which is going to be the best ones for editing. And they really helped me with that so that I could create these, honestly, on the spot, push them through my channels, and then we share them together through both my personal channels on LinkedIn, as well as the company channels. So they kind of worked with me on how we share that content, and they've also showed me a lot of cool tips and tricks I wouldn't have known before. And so it was kind of a really collaborative effort and learning to put those things together that you know, I'll admit I'm now personally using in my own personal different Instagram posts and contents and things like that.  [00:08:01] Michelle Calcote King: That's awesome. Can you share some of those apps or tips that have been particularly helpful?  [00:08:07] Jessica Whitlock: My first content I pushed through after we had this 'Aha' moment, I was very nervous about it. And so I was like, "I don't know. I haven't really done this before." So I created a video and I just sent it to marketing like, "You guys just make it look good." And when I got it back it looked amazing and so they were able to kind of like point out the different things of how they cut it and what to look for. The biggest thing I've learned is making sure your video really shouldn't be over a minute and a half. If it's over a minute and a half, you just lost your audience. And so that was something I learned through them. Also making sure that the music you set behind it and your captions and things are going to be something that as people are scrolling, because we're a scrolling generation, what's going to make them stop, even if it's just for a few seconds and pay attention to your content? They were able to kind of give me tips around that. I was able to download like a film app where it actually allows me to take the video, put it into that app, make all my cuts, apply the music, and make it a little bit more customizable instead of just using, you know, reel templates that you would see on Instagram or Facebook. Actually being able to create it the exact way you want it to be able to show the content in the way that you want people to perceive it.  [00:09:24] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. And do you use any tech other than your phone? Are you thinking about lighting or lapel mics, that kind of thing?  [00:09:33] Jessica Whitlock: That's like a good thought. We actually only use our phones and we do that on purpose. We've thought about what would we do if we took it to the next level? And then I kind of was like, "You know, I really don't want to." Not because it's more work or it's more equipment, but it starts to make it kind of less authentic.  [00:09:49] Michelle Calcote King: Right, a little too polished. [00:09:50] Jessica Whitlock: It's a little too polished. And if we think about what our different generations are really craving these days, they are really craving essence of connection, but in a very authentic way. And so if you go on to different architectural firm social medias, you'll start to see a lot of it's static and a lot of it is either post-project professional polished photography or it's polished renderings. But what about that in between? What about the process? What about the construction? The thing that everyone wants to see and be a part of? How does it get built? What does that look like? And so being able to go in with just a phone and really show the authentic environment of that process is, I think, really unique and it's what people are really wanting to see is something different. It's quick and it's dynamic.  [00:10:45] Michelle Calcote King: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. So how are you expanding this? So you talked about the mentor videos. Are there other folks like you in similar roles that you're now going, "Hey, you know, if you're going to be at this site, here's what we're doing." How are you kind of rolling that out?  [00:11:02] Jessica Whitlock: Our marketing team and myself and some of the other people who started to take on this initiative, even though they're not labeled 'marketing,' it's all about how do you encourage the associates to stop and take content? And I think a lot of it is streamlining the process. How do we streamline this process? So if we want our associates to really get involved and taking a lot of this, how do we as a company provide them with templates and resources, as well as instructions to make it easier on them?  I'm the type of person who loves to do it myself and I find it fascinating, but not everyone's like that. So our company is actually taking a deeper look into creating a program and creating resources on our own to provide to our associates so that when they're on-site, you know, here's a quick little template. If you want to take photos or a video, just put it in this app or this system that we've already pre-created for you with all the branding needed and you can just spit it out. Or if you get content, just send it to marketing and they put it together for you and they push it out.  And so it's giving them different types of resources, so it makes their lives easier because what's going to happen is if you try to encourage associates to do those things, it takes time. You know, it takes time putting content together. So how do we streamline that process? And that's what we're working on now. And we're really excited about it.  [00:12:22] Michelle Calcote King: Do you find that, and this is kind of a loaded question because I know how I've found it with clients, that it kind of it empowers people-- It makes them feel good about themselves to kind of be the person to have kind of visibility on social media with regards to their job or have their job share the content that they're creating? Especially younger people who are used to this and have grown up with this kind of life where social media is kind of central to everything. Do you find that it's kind of empowering and almost like an HR tool?  [00:12:53] Jessica Whitlock: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Because everyone likes when they post on Instagram and they tag a restaurant and then they see that restaurant, you know, share it in stories, your heart just bursts. And it doesn't matter if two people looked at it or if a million people looked at it. It was the fact that they took notice and they really liked how you were promoting them and they were supporting you. It's not only very uplifting and encouraging to our entire associate team, but it's also, you know, how do you encourage them to want to be a part of the face of the brand? [00:13:30] Michelle Calcote King: Right.  [00:13:30] Jessica Whitlock: You know? They want to be a part of that vision. They want to be a part of that brand. And it also shows to our clients our entire breadth of our team. And they get to see all these different faces that maybe they don't get to see every single day, but they get to see it through social media. It really kind of opens the door of like, "Wow their team is really expansive. I had no idea." Or, "I didn't know that person was, you know, an aerospace engineer." And get to see a little bit more about our company that maybe they're only seeing a little bit of part of, but now they get to see, you know, everything that we can do and what we're capable of. [00:14:05] Michelle Calcote King: I love that. That's really fantastic.  This is a podcast on marketing for AEC industry. Since you do collaborate so well with your marketing team, how have you been able to build that great relationship so maybe if there's a marketer out there that's trying to build better relationships with studio leaders like yourself, what's been the kind of key to you working effectively with them? [00:14:27] Jessica Whitlock: I would 100-percent say, do not work in a silo. We are a connected community and we seek that out. And so when marketers are, especially in the architecture and design industry, when you're trying to put together content, your designers and architects will know exactly what the clients are wanting to see and needing to see from a branding perspective as well as project styles. Everyone tends to have their style when they put out their content showing brand and different types of projects and your designers and your architects will be the ones that be able to tell you, "Okay, we know what they're looking for. This is the way that it needs to be." And working together and collaboratively from an early stage — that's always key, from an early stage — really creates a strong partnership and so when you put out these different contents, you're able to ensure that what you're putting out is exactly what your audience is looking for.  [00:15:25] Michelle Calcote King: Fantastic advice.  Would love to hear just as a final note before we go, and I know you're not a marketer, but since you are involved, what's the future for architecture, engineering firms, you know, building brand visibility, engaging with audiences? What trends do you see happening? [00:15:42] Jessica Whitlock: I do think that architecture marketing has always relied on relationships and those 'Wow' moments to really capture and convey the expertise that we're really trying to get out there, and that's not going away. It's not going to go away. However, these tactics evolve into these quick, digestible, authentic moments. It's kind of like guerrilla marketing. And I'm not sure if you're familiar with guerrilla marketing. It started in the early millennium and it really grew in popularity as social media started to gain in popularity. And it's these really interactive and innovative and unconventional marketing tactics to grab the attention of our audience in a very quick way. Again, going back to the comment I made about the scrolling, we are a society that's looking for quick information and digesting it quickly. So, how do we get them to stop scrolling? And it's really those 'Wow' moments in a very quick and digestive way, but also authentic. I really believe that the next chapter of marketing is showing things in a very authentic way. If you're on Instagram, you'll see, you know, these stories where it's like the Instagram moment, but what actually really happened?  [00:16:52] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:16:53] Jessica Whitlock: What's grabbing you is not the Instagram moment. What's grabbing you is what really happened. Because that's the authentic lens is pulling back the curtain and showing, "This is reality." And people want that connection to that. They're done with the polished, you know, kind of overexposed content. They want to have real authentic connections with people. [00:17:16] Michelle Calcote King: I've seen a lot of writing about that, especially with AI and deepfakes and filters on pictures that we are kind of coming a little full circle to people going, "But what's really real?" That's a really fantastic point. So, yeah.  Well, thank you so much for joining me to talk about this. We'll probably put up a few links on the podcast page to some of the videos you've done, because they are really great examples of how to do this well. But if anybody wants to reach out to you and talk to you a little bit more about this, what would be the best way for them to do that? [00:17:47] Jessica Whitlock: I would say right through my email, which is jessica.whitlock@rsandh.com.  [00:17:53] Michelle Calcote King: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.  [00:17:54] Jessica Whitlock: Thank you.  [00:17:57]: Thanks for listening to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click 'Subscribe' to get future episodes.

Jennifer Sebranek helped shape GBBN Architects’s marketing into a vibrant, creative and attention-grabbing masterpiece — much like the buildings the firm’s architects design. Their success truly cemented as the firm focused on building a client-first brand, which Jennifer refers to as GBBN’s “You, not us” approach. It captures GBBN’s unwavering commitment to prioritize the client experience and foster lasting connections with the built environment, clients, project partners and each other. Michelle Calcote King invites Jennifer to share insights into GBBN’s marketing approach and the trends shaping its future. In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” they underscore the significance of an authentic brand identity and personable writing. Michelle and Jennifer also explore how GBBN integrates video, public relations and email marketing into its overall strategy. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Jennifer Sebranek and what is GBBN Architects GBBN’s “You, not us” approach How GBBN’s brand has transformed over the years How GBBN uses social media to give audiences a “peek behind the curtain” The role of video in architecture marketing The benefits of public relations for an architecture firm How GBBN leverages email marketing to stay top of mind with prospective and current clients Why architecture marketers should invest in elevating the client experience How to get the most out of professional associations like the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS) About our featured guest Jennifer oversees GBBN’s award-winning marketing department and directs communications and public relations initiatives across all markets and offices. She’s a flexible and patient consensus-builder who works with her team, firm leadership and a growing workforce in the United States and China to ensure that GBBN’s diverse, creative voices share an authentic and cohesive brand message. Her ability to listen, empathize and consider multiple points of view is informed by all the places she’s called home—from her rural roots in North Carolina to time spent living in Chicago, England and Cincinnati. Jennifer is a past president of the Greater Cincinnati chapter of the Society for Marketing Professional Services, where she has also been recognized as “Marketer of the Year.” She was named a 2023 Cincinnati Business Courier's “Women Who Mean Business,” and she is frequently invited to present her marketing insights at conferences, including the SMPS Pinnacle Experience and the Cincinnati Public Relations Society of America Media Day Conference. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out GBBN Architects Follow GBBN on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Jennifer Sebranek on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Check out The Reel GBBN Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Jennifer Sebranek: We have had a time period where firms were so busy, backlog was at the highest it's ever been, we also had the COVID pandemic where people weren't able to meet face-to-face. So you've got busyness and you don't have that one-on-one time. And I think in that time period, it was really hard to connect with your clients and to build these relationships that help get you that next project or help them become advocates for your brand. So for us, we are really focused on going back to the basics of the client experience.  [00:00:33]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [00:00:51] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and marketing agency for architecture, engineering and construction firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com. Is there such a thing as a right way to market an architecture firm? Which strategies work? Which don't? What's up and coming for the industry that we should all be talking about? That's what we'll talk about today as we continue our series of interviews with leading architecture firm marketers.  So I'd like to welcome Jennifer Sebranek to the podcast. She's the principal and chief marketing officer at GBBN Architects. So excited to have you here today, Jennifer.  [00:01:33] Jennifer Sebranek: I am so excited to be here as well.  [00:01:35] Michelle Calcote King: Awesome. And I hope I nailed your name right?  [00:01:38] Jennifer Sebranek: Perfect. It was perfect. Yes. Yes. Yes.  [00:01:40] Michelle Calcote King: Well, let's start off, just tell me a little bit about your career and you know, sort of how you ended up in this field and at GBBN. [00:01:47] Jennifer Sebranek: Sure. I have been in the AEC industry for 15 years now. It's amazing how quickly that ticks up on you. And I ended up here after relocating to Cincinnati. And I didn't really know about this as a specialty in marketing. I had a marketing background, had been in the furniture industry, but I found myself working for a developer. And then after a couple of years there, jumped over to the architecture side.  And why I love architecture is because at the end of the day, you get to see a physical manifestation of the work that you did. It comes out in a building or a space or revitalization. Whatever it is, you get to see it, you get to touch it, and it really represents all the work that not only the architects and the construction companies did and engineers, but it also represents all the work that the marketing teams and the business development professionals did to make that happen.  I've been at GBBN for ten years now, and we have really been focused on sharing our story about how we are positively affecting our clients. How are the things that we do as architects making our clients more successful, helping them hit their goals? And we're focused in higher education, community development, healthcare, as well as the arts, and we have a technology team.  [00:03:08] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. I've got some specific questions, but if someone were to say, you know, "Tell me, what's your approach to marketing and business development for GBBN?" Could you sum that up for us? [00:03:19] Jennifer Sebranek: Yes. I like to talk about us being focused on, "You, not us." So our marketing and business development approaches are always centered around our clients, our potential clients, our partners, and how we're helping them surface their issues and find solutions through space.  At our firm, we do have two separate marketing and business development approaches. Marketing is all about awareness, making sure that everybody is able to learn about us and think about would we be a good partner for them. And then, of course, business development is all about relationships, right? How are we cultivating those relationships?  Both are really centered on the voice of our clients. What are they up against? How can we help them? How can we make them look good to their bosses? What's really working for us is really focusing on them and their issues versus us as architects and what we're doing.  [00:04:16] Michelle Calcote King: I got to tell you, I love your brand and also just sort of your brand voice. You're kind of like a little bit edgy. It's different. Can you tell me a little bit about the brand and the brand voice and sort of how you developed that? Was it hard to kind of be able to push the needle a little bit with that?  [00:04:33] Jennifer Sebranek: Yeah, so our brand is five years old this year. And it was about a journey of about eight years to deploy that new brand. We are very fortunate at GBBN that our leadership, we believe in the value of marketing and business development.  [00:04:48] Michelle Calcote King: I could tell, yeah. You can really tell that. Yeah, absolutely.  [00:04:52] Jennifer Sebranek: And it's very rare sometimes to have your CEO that absolutely — and our CEO, Matthew Schottelkotte — he understands that, "Hey, we're architects and we do that well, but we need people to really help us tell our story because we like to geek out on butt glazing and facade system, and our clients probably don't want to geek out about that." So we said, "How can our brand really reflects who we are and what we do for our clients?"  So we started first with really making sure that we were aligned as a leadership about who is GBBN, what do we stand for. So, we rewrote our guiding principles. We rewrote our mission statement. We really aligned on that. And then, the next step that we did was we created what is called a brand plan, and that is really starting to surface how are we different? What are the adjectives that describe our firm? How do we like to communicate with our clients? We went through that activity, and then we turned it over to an external agent feed to help us really bring those words to life. That didn't only mean just the visual, the logo, the brand look, but also what are the words that we're using so that we're making sure at the end of the day, we're connecting with the clients and what they care about.  So the brand has been really fun. So, five years and we've really tried to make sure that we evolve it to stay current with what we're learning about our clients, learning about what's working and not working. We have the most incredible marketing team here. When we rebranded, we made the strategic decision to hire a writer to help us surface those issues. It has been so successful that we hired another writer. We also have two graphic designers, a marketing manager, a marketing coordinator, and then myself. And the team really works together day in and day out to do proposals, but also to think about what is our social media campaign, how are we doing video? What are we doing to really connect to today's client and tomorrow's clients?  [00:06:47] Michelle Calcote King: Love that. Yeah, you can really tell. We work across professional services firms and our other market that we work a lot with this law firms. So architecture firms tend to push the needle in creativity, but I felt like yours really stood out. And as I was kind of reading through your social media, you often find this very stuffy, overly formal, corporatey language, and you don't have that. You have a very personable, "We're people here," kind of talking, kind of feel to it. Was that on purpose?  [00:07:17] Jennifer Sebranek: That's very intentional. It's very intentional.  We like to describe our social media as, "A glimpse into the firm." Our two major audiences are potential talent as well as clients that are using social media. And we wanted to make sure that it felt like a peek behind the door. What does it feel like to work at GBBN? And also what does it feel like to work with GBBN? I think sometimes in our industry, we get so focused on that beautiful architectural final photo and if it's got a trash can in it and everybody gets really upset. What we wanted to do with our brand is to really peel back and show the thinking behind the making. How are we using digital fabrication to work with contractors to be able to get that perfect angle in that building that looks amazing in the final photo, but is messy behind the scenes? So that is always the goal is to really make it just a little bit of a behind the curtain of what's happening today.  [00:08:12] Michelle Calcote King: The other thing I noticed is you've got some really cool content. You know, I saw "The Reel GBBN." Tell me about the strategy behind producing that.  [00:08:20] Jennifer Sebranek: So we're always looking at how our users are consuming content. And I think as all marketers know is that what works today doesn't work tomorrow. So we have been over the last few years really thinking about video and how do we integrate it more? And I think in our industry, I mean, marketers, man. We wear so many hats and then you just throw in this request for proposals on top of it and we're busy all the time. So we had to figure out a way to do videos, A, with no budget, because again, marketing AEC. And two, with a thousand other things on our plate. So what we did is we set a goal for every year we do about two to three project stories, and we realized that we're also doing still photography and everybody that's been on a photo shoot knows that there is so much time where you're just standing around waiting for people to fluff pillows, waiting for people to move. So what we did was we said, "Okay, while we're on site, let's just get our Samsung video camera, cell phone, and let's record. It's a low buy in, we bought a really basic microphone, and then our graphic designer interviews our project team to get the story behind it. And then we edit it all in house, and then it all comes together as a story about our project that helps supplement our case studies and other materials to tell the story. That was so successful that then we said, "What other stories can we tell? Let's interview our employees and find out why they like working here. If we do something fun, let's do a video on that to really help people see what it's like to work here."  [00:09:57] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. There's a time and place for that beautifully scripted, high-end video, but then just getting out there with your iPhone or something like that, you can really, really produce great content. I think people like that kind of less scripted and produced content many times. There's different means for it.  [00:10:17] Jennifer Sebranek: Yeah, it's, it's, especially with the trends of the TikTok, which we have not ventured into yet. When I see our partners that do video for us and they put these beautiful stories together and I feel like for like a professional firm, you need both. You need those that can tell the story in this beautiful produced way, and then you need this kind of gritty, kind of you figure out a way to do it internally. So it's a good combo to have.  [00:10:39] Michelle Calcote King: The other thing I noticed is that you are regularly published in a lot of publications, a lot of trade publications. What's the benefit you've found behind the PR that you're getting and how do you approach PR?  [00:10:51] Jennifer Sebranek: One of the major reasons for our rebrand was that we were ready to signal to the world about the elevated design that we've been doing over the years.  We're a 58-year-old firm. We've been around, people knew us as a good technical architect. But over the past years, we had really been investing in staff that had worked in New York and San Fran and Chicago who are coming to our cities. And we had also been developing our staff to that next level of design. So we had all this amazing work that was winning awards, but we hadn't really been sharing that. So that was a big point of the rebrand was to be able to share that story.  We are organized into market sectors. For example, our healthcare team. What I did is I sat down with each of the leaders of those market sectors, and I said, "What is your marketing plan?" And we developed a speaking, a writing, a publishing, a present strategy for each of those and we realized that, "Hey, we really needed this third-party publishing to help credential us and to help validate." It's so much easier to go to the client and say, "Well, we've been published in the New York Times, we've been published in Healthcare Design and in Behavioral Health, because they instantly like, they're like, "Okay, that's credible." And I think we started to see like with that, it just started to raise our awareness. And then there's nothing better than having someone else share your content on social media cause it gets to their audiences. So that success just really started to build, and that's the reason we needed that second writer, we needed that second graphic designer to keep up with the demand that was out there. [00:12:24] Michelle Calcote King: Love that. Yeah. And that's exactly it. It's the credentialing, the validation, and third-party sharing your story. And yeah, like you said, on social media, it just sort of amplifies it because those outlets know what they're doing and are building audiences that you want to be in front of. Let's talk trends. So we talked about what are you guys doing, but where do you see things headed? What, what are you kind of keeping an eye on right now in terms of what's the next thing for you guys marketing your firm?  [00:12:52] Jennifer Sebranek: I mean, we're absolutely keeping an eye on technology and what's happening with websites. We have an office in China. We use WeChat a lot to communicate. So we're trying to make sure we know that nothing stays the same and once you have success somewhere then it's time to pivot.  But I have to say, in our industry, one of the most important things that I think that we have to focus on is the client experience. So, lo-fi, but I think what happened in our industry is we have had a time period where firms were so busy, backlog was at the highest it's ever been, we also had the COVID pandemic where people weren't able to meet face-to-face. So you've got busyness and you don't have that one-on-one time. And I think in that time period, it was really hard to connect with your clients and to build these relationships that help get you that next project or help them become advocates for your brand. So for us, we are really focused on going back to the basics of the client experience and making sure that we're reminding ourselves what it was like to connect with each other before we all went remote. We're making sure that we're really thinking about, "How do we make a special experience so we can help our clients differentiate between us and another architecture firm?"  Oftentimes architecture firms, we all speak the same language. We've had interviews where clients have been like, "You all say the same words, but how are you different?" And I think how you're different is how you show, and how you work with somebody. How you build that relationship. I mean, we all have vendors that call us and ask us for things and we don't like that because they're asking us to do something for them. But those people that you love to pick up the phone and work with are ones that are calling you to really help you. To really say, "I know you're thinking about this in your business and here's how I can help you or here's how we can work together to accomplish your goals and make you look good to your boss." So that's really what we're going to be focused on is really making sure our project managers, people working with clients day-to-day are focused on cultivating that amazing experience to help us be different in the competition.  [00:15:01] Michelle Calcote King: I've seen a lot of people talking about how, you know, obviously, AI is the big topic right now, but one of the interesting points somebody made was that the more that AI becomes prevalent, I think the more people will revert back to wanting to deal with humans and want that human touch and want that real relationship. I can 100-percent understand that because you start to not trust a lot of what you see. We went through this whole digitization phase with the pandemic and I think we're going to get back to a little bit more of "Okay, you know..." And you've got to be there. You've got to have that digital side of it, but that more human element is going to, I think, going to be the thing that a lot of firms are focused on.  [00:15:38] Jennifer Sebranek: You're so right. You've got to have both. You've got to have both to stay relevant. You have to have the digital to be relevant and then you've got to have human touch to stay connected. [00:15:47] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. And I think people will crave it the more tech takes over a lot of our lives.  I noticed that you're a former Greater Cincinnati SMPS president — and SMPS for any of our listeners, it's the Society for Marketing Professional Services. It's the main association for marketers at architecture, engineering and construction firms. You're a member of the Board of Directors. Can you talk me through how has SMPS helped shaped your career? And, you know, if younger AEC marketers are listening, would you encourage them to get involved? What are some other avenues that have helped you develop in your career?  [00:16:21] Jennifer Sebranek: Oh my goodness. Absolutely get involved with it. There are very few people that understand what it's like to have five proposals on your desk, have three e-blasts that have to go out tomorrow, and a thousand other things on your plate. Marketers and business development professionals in our industry, we are a special group of people. SMPS is not only a crucial resource for me to learn about the trends that are happening, also to connect with people across the country, but it's also a way to have a group that really understands what you're going up against every day in your life and not only commiserate, but to help you have strategies.  One of my closest friends works for a competing architecture firms and we're not sharing competitive intelligence, but we are working together to figure out how we all navigate through these crazy environments that we work in. It's deadline-driven, it's high-pressure, it's different, and I think that having that network out there, it has just been so beneficial for not only my mental health, but to actually help me get to the C-Suite in this firm. Knowledge is power and being able to take to my CEO and the other members of our strategic team, trends that we're seeing, being able to say, you know, "My SMPS friends in other cities are seeing this and I think it's coming to our city next." It really starts to validate your information. And the best way to get involved is to be on a committee in your local chapter and then to make sure you go to the conferences because that's just where you get other opportunities to connect.  [00:17:52] Michelle Calcote King: I agree. I'm pretty involved in the Southeast. Even as an outside consultant, one, it just helps me understand what my clients are going through, you know. Gives me that kind of intelligence.  And I hate to back up to tactics, but you mentioned email and I'd love to know your approach to email. What are you putting out over email? Is it a priority? What are some of the ways that you're using email within your overall strategy?  [00:18:15] Jennifer Sebranek: Each of our markets, part of their marketing plan is e-blast. We made the move about three years ago to go away from the monthly newsletter. We were not seeing open stats, engagement stats that really showed. And then we realized, "Hey, if our brand is about 'Focus on them, not us,' we're just sharing information about us." So we pivoted from that, put our resources into thought leadership and doing e-blast. So each market then segmented their audiences and to specific ones. So we have our developer and then we have our healthcare and our higher education because we didn't want to be noise. We don't want to communicate noise to other people that aren't interested.  So we do use it to ship out insights, market-specific, and we try to only do it quarterly. Just not to be noise. But each market, they each have touch plans, so if they have a quarterly newsletter, then there might be other business development touches that they're following up via email for a client saying, "Hey, I know you're really struggling with making your sustainability goals by 2030. Here's an example of what our other clients are doing." Just trying to have touches in between those to make sure we're staying on their minds and being relevant to what they're up against. [00:19:31] Michelle Calcote King: I appreciate you kind of diving into those different tactics because I'm always interested to see how people are using different tools. Some marketers favor some versus others, but yeah, segmentation and making sure that you're not annoying your, you know. They don't see your email in their inbox and think, "Irrelevant," you know. [00:19:48] Jennifer Sebranek: MailChimp makes that so easy. I mean, there are others too, but it's just, it's so easy just to keep it all separate and update.  [00:19:55] Michelle Calcote King: I like to kind of end our interview with a final lesson. Is there a lesson you would say is one of the most valuable lessons you've learned over the course of your career in architecture marketing that you think other marketers would benefit from hearing? [00:20:10] Jennifer Sebranek: I think at the end of the day, everybody wants to help everybody. And I think a lot of times we can be embarrassed or a little hesitant to reach out to someone and say like, "Hey, I see you're doing this and it looks great. Can you help me?" I feel like in our industry, marketers are so wanting to help each other. So I totally recommend build your network, be bold and ask people, "How are they doing that? Can they give you some advice?" Because I think a lot of times people think, "Well, they're not going to share their process." But I can tell you my process, but the end of the day, you're going to interpret it in your own unique way. We're not making widgets. We're creating experiences and that means that we're all gonna be doing it differently and you can't copy me because you're not me. So, be open to sharing information, be open to connecting and taking the time to meet others that you really look up to and they will always be willing to share some advice or help you be successful 'cause in this industry, it is the most collaborative sharing group I've ever worked with and it's just phenomenal.  [00:21:15] Michelle Calcote King: It's fantastic advice. Took me a while to learn, but, once I did it's a game changer. So we've been talking to Jennifer Sebranek of GBBN Architects. If people want to get in touch and form a relationship with you, what's the best way for them to get in touch?  [00:21:28] Jennifer Sebranek: Oh, you know, I've got to pitch our Instagram or LinkedIn feed for you to be able to get that peek behind the scenes of what it's like to work with and at GBBN. We're at @GBBNArchitects and feel free to direct message me through any of those platforms. I get copied on all of those inboxes, so I'm happy to reach out and connect and talk more about the awesome things in this industry.  [00:21:50] Michelle Calcote King: Awesome. Well, thank you so much.  [00:21:54]: Thanks for listening to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes.

Extracting, capturing and communicating knowledge from project team members are fundamental responsibilities of an architecture firm’s marketing department. LS3P, an architecture, interiors and planning firm, has honed these processes over the years to drive its success, elevate its marketing efforts and provide greater value to its clients. In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” Michelle Calcote King interviews Katie Robinson, LS3P’s chief marketing officer and a principal in the firm. They discuss the firm’s marketing evolution, including how Katie helped refine LS3P’s knowledge management efforts and the positive effect it had on the firm’s departments. They delve into conversations about how to engage subject-matter experts in marketing efforts as well as podcasting, social media, career development and artificial intelligence. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Katie Robinson and what is LS3P How to engage busy architecture professionals in marketing efforts How LS3P captures and leverages employee knowledge Why LS3P centralized its data and information in a custom dashboard and how it streamlines communication across the organization How architecture marketing is evolving The role of social media and technology in today’s marketing landscape The importance of career advancement opportunities for marketing professionals What is LS3P’s approach to artificial intelligence About our featured guest Katie Robinson joined LS3P, an architecture, interiors and planning firm with offices throughout the Southeast, in 2004. She serves as a principal and the firm’s chief marketing officer, playing a pivotal role in driving the firm's practice and business processes. With a keen focus on supporting the firm's vision, Katie works closely with the Executive Committee to ensure comprehensive support across marketing, knowledge management and strategy. With her extensive expertise in marketing and communications, Katie has spearheaded a transformative journey at LS3P, turning the marketing department into a dynamic creative agency. Under her guidance, the team has excelled in managing both internal and external communications while offering responsive and proactive marketing and creative services. Katie's strategic leadership has been instrumental in the successful creation and implementation of innovative marketing collateral and brand management strategies, with a specific focus on fostering brand trust. Beyond her contributions to marketing, Katie assumes a vital role within LS3P's business team. Her responsibilities extend to leading the knowledge management efforts within the firm, collaborating closely with the practice team members to prioritize data collection on all projects. Notably, she was instrumental in the establishment of LS3P's pioneering Data Manager Program in 2013, which has solidified her position as a leader in the architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) industry. Katie's acute understanding of the profound connection between knowledge and creativity enables her to bridge the gap between data-driven insights and exceptional design. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out LS3P Follow LS3P on Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Katie Robinson on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Check out LS3P’s “Human Scale” podcast Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Katie Robinson: I will tell anybody in leadership the key to success is hire people far more creative and smarter than you are.  [00:00:09]: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [00:00:27] Michelle Calcote King: Hi everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm the host of this podcast, and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for professional services firms, including architecture, engineering, and construction. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com. We're going to continue our series talking to architecture firm CMOs. And we're going to just kind of dive into a discussion with one of the leading CMOs at a regional firm about what they're getting right, what are some of their challenges, how you go about building a thriving marketing department. So yeah, I'm excited to jump into that. Our guest today is Katie Robinson. She's the principal and chief marketing officer at LS3P, an architecture, interiors and planning firm. Welcome to the show, Katie.  [00:01:14] Katie Robinson: Thanks so much for having me, Michelle.  [00:01:16] Michelle Calcote King: I called you all a regional firm, but I don't know if that's correct. How would you describe the firm?  [00:01:21] Katie Robinson: Absolutely. We are a regional firm. Some of our clients and projects take us beyond the Southeast, but our commitment truly is to this area, which is why our 12 offices are lumped throughout the Carolinas, Georgia and Florida. It truly is where our heart lies. [00:01:40] Michelle Calcote King: Fantastic. Well, tell me a little bit about yourself first. How'd you get into architecture marketing?  [00:01:45] Katie Robinson: I fell into it by chance. I was living in Atlanta straight out of college and working for a publishing company. And it was a very exciting industry. It was the paper industry, so really good content. They moved their operations over to Brussels, Belgium. So, I was looking for a job and back then we didn't really have Google to search. So I got the phone book out and found architecture and found that a wonderful firm, TBS in Atlanta was hiring for a marketing coordinator. So, I kind of stumbled upon it by chance and was lucky enough to get hired there and join their team. So, that's how I kind of found my way into this industry.  [00:02:34] Michelle Calcote King: Love it. It just kind of stuck. I tell my employees some of those stories about before the internet. I can tell there's always this look of disbelief on their face. [00:02:42] Katie Robinson: I know. It's like this just glaze and it's like, "Really?"  [00:02:47] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, we had to do things differently back then.  Tell me about your department. I think I saw on your LinkedIn profile, you kind of talked about turning the marketing department into a dynamic creative agency. So if you can kind of describe for me the team you've built and the specialties that you have in-house.  [00:03:03] Katie Robinson: Of course. This is my favorite thing to talk about because my team is amazing. I will tell anybody in leadership, the key to success is hire people far more creative and smarter than you are, and then you look really good. And that's what we've built with the marketing team here.  I'll kind of back up. When I first started with the firm in 2004, we had two offices at the time. So we've grown from 2 to 12. Marketing existed, but we were really very reactive in marketing. You know, "Here's a proposal. We need to do it," and that was pretty much it. I think we had a two-page website, no social media, obviously then. So, my career with LS3P has been interesting because none of the positions that I've been in existed before I was able to show there's a need for it, "Let's try it and let's evolve." So what's happened is I've been able to also build different marketing positions along the way. We used to be very office-centric where there was a marketing individual, we call them coordinators at the time; we've since ditched that title because we don't like it. But in different offices, and they would basically do the responsive stuff, the proposals and interviews. And then if there was an ad that needed to be done, we would throw that together, but there really wasn't a focus on building brand trust and brand awareness or even proactive marketing in general.  We made a small step in around 2015 by putting together a communications team that started to push some of these efforts. But, honestly, it wasn't really until 2020 when we decided to make marketing a firm-wide team instead of office-specific that we really saw a huge change. We did that in the beginning of 2020. The buy-in wasn't great because the office leadership was like, "This is my marketing person. I don't know." Then we all went home to work during the pandemic.  [00:05:17] Michelle Calcote King: Right.  [00:05:18] Katie Robinson: So it was actually perfect timing. Something we thought would take us a year or so to get buy-in had almost immediate buy-in because your person wasn't local anymore. [00:05:28] Michelle Calcote King: Right. Right. You kind of had to think less in that way. You had to put your framework that way.  [00:05:34] Katie Robinson: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what we found was we had such great collaboration amongst our team members. We were able to put lane processes in place so when you worked with anybody in marketing, you knew what to expect. It was the same process for everyone. That also helps us jump in and help one another and pick up. You know, if somebody gets pulled away for an emergency of any type, somebody can swoop in and help. So we did that and then it kind of helped us to escalate the offerings that we were able to do within marketing. So our group created sub-teams. We have individuals who were really passionate about video and podcasts; individuals passionate about design award submittals; individuals that really like to do booklets and layouts and story crafting, and things like that. So we developed these sub-teams where our marketing specialists can jump in and out. And so they can build their skills; they can do what they're passionate about; they can have a break from all those responsive efforts, the churn and burn of our industry. And then it started escalating from there. We had an individual in the firm, within the marketing team who was very interested in doing experiential graphic design. So now our department offers experiential graphics. So we're able to work with the practice team members, be a little bit billable, which is also nice.  [00:07:02] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, neat.  [00:07:04] Katie Robinson: And then from there clients started approaching us saying, "Can you help with our brand?" "Yes, we would love to." So we've really started to model our team more as a creative agency rather than your typical architectural firm marketing. [00:07:18] Michelle Calcote King: I love that. Marketing is becoming more complex and having the ability to access a variety of specialists I'm sure is incredibly valuable to your firm.  Tell me about the role of thought leadership in your firm.  [00:07:32] Katie Robinson: Well, it's essential for, actually, both of my loves because I do lead the marketing group. My brain doesn't know boundaries, so the left side and right side just mesh together a lot. So, I also lead the knowledge management side.  [00:07:46] Michelle Calcote King: Okay. Great. Yeah.  [00:07:47] Katie Robinson: Our Foresight blog that we have on our website, it's awesome. It's a great place where we display our thought leadership, and what's so unique about it is it's voices from all over our firm. From student interns all the way to the CEO. That's kind of, you know, a really fun outlet that we have going on with our website. And right now, I would say, and this is probably not a challenge that's just for LS3P, but I think from our industry alone is capturing that thought leadership, especially from the individuals who are getting ready to start their next journey into retirement, and making sure that we can disseminate all of their knowledge and their expertise. And not only being a leader, but, you know, how they put together a C proposal for a client or you know, wall sections or, you know the little things we don't think to ask people. So how do we, as the knowledge management team, extract that knowledge? And then how do we, as the marketing team, communicate that internally as well as externally? That's kind of the balance that we find ourselves in right now, and I know it's something that a lot of firms within our industry and other industries are looking at as people start looking into retirement. [00:09:13] Michelle Calcote King: A hundred percent. And yeah, the two go really hand in hand. And I love that you use that term knowledge extraction. I use that all the time. It's basically what we're doing, right? We're really kind of pulling knowledge out of these experts' brains and then as marketers, we think, "Okay, what can I do with all this?" But you've also got that dual approach of, you know, just setting the firm up for the future.  I also saw that you guys have a podcast. Tell me a little bit about that.  [00:09:36] Katie Robinson: We do. We do. We have a podcast that recently launched. I was just joking to our fantastic marketing director, Meredith Ray, how I have not been a guest on the podcast yet. But it's okay. She assures me that I will be invited. But our podcast is called "Human Scale." And it's really fun because it's where we sit down with any and all members of LS3P. And we talk about the different facets of what we do, how we do it, but more importantly, who we are as humans. So you get a little bit of what they're doing in their professional life, but you get a whole lot of what makes them who they are. So it's incredibly fun. Meredith, who I mentioned, hosts along with one of our practice team members, Patrick Cooley, and they have such a fun dynamic together as well. So, I believe we have three external episodes right now and we've recorded our fourth right now. So it's really fun and it's, as you know from this, it is such a great way to connect with people.  [00:10:43] Michelle Calcote King: It really is. Yeah. I've made so many connections, and the way I position it when I talk to clients about it is it's a new way of networking and making relationships. It's just so focused. There's so many benefits you get from it, but you have a focused conversation versus that, you know, happy hour or networking event where you might not get to have that kind of deep dive with someone. You really get to do that in a podcast in a way that I'm not sure you could do in any other way. And it just helps so much with the way people consume media nowadays. And as marketers, we're always looking to repurpose content, and it's just such a great tool for that, for generating that content. You know, one of the challenges we run up against, especially in a professional services firm, and the reason I transitioned to this is because I think podcasts are a great way to do it, is getting your busy architects — so these are the fee earners, these are people that are billing clients who participate and share their knowledge and be part of the thought leadership. What have you found some ways to engage them, and that kind of gets them involved in ways that integrate with their work life well?  [00:11:54] Katie Robinson: So this is like the million dollar question, right? If anybody had an easy button for this, they would be set on. We're a participant of the Large Firm Roundtable through the American Institute of Architects, and I serve on the marketing subcommittee of that group. This is a conversation we have all the time with my peers in other large firms. And it's the hard one, you know, because you do need the practice team members. And it's not only that you need their time for the proactive stuff and to do things like podcasts, maybe some videos and things like that. You need their time for the responsive stuff, like letters and scopes of work for projects and pursuits. So it's a delicate balance. I think what we've been able to do really successfully is the fact that, as I mentioned before, we do have processes in place. [00:12:48] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.  [00:12:49] Katie Robinson: We also have a lot of pre-existing information that we can pull from; a really extensive text library, for example. So when we do need to engage the expertise of some of our practice team members, they're not starting from scratch. We're giving them something. I think also remembering that it doesn't necessarily have to be so polished. I mean, we want everything to be perfect. We're perfectionist in marketing, but, you know, having just a casual conversation like we're having right now that you can record and then extract tidbits from later is fine. It doesn't have to be set up in a studio somewhere with perfect lighting and perfect sound and everything. Taking those opportunities to have just those casual connections with some of our subject matter experts, and then taking it and saying, "Okay, what can we do with it?"  [00:13:47] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.  [00:13:48] Katie Robinson: You take a little bit and make a lot. You know, what little tidbits can we pull? Is there a Foresight article in this? Is there maybe an extended podcast in this subject? Maybe we can just write a social media blog on the content. Or is it just internal? You know, so trying to make a lot from a little definitely helps.  I think another thing that is really important to do is explain the "why" to the practice team members and and the billable folks of why we're doing this. You know, a lot of times the reason we're asking for their expertise is because we want to position them to be speakers at industry conferences or conferences our clients are attending. We want to help get them published. So, essentially, we want to help you advance in your career, but you got to help us by telling us what you know.  [00:14:44] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, you're speaking my language with all that. I think, especially with AI emergence, I think the more human we can get, the better people are going to be craving that more and more. So, when you're talking about, it doesn't have to be polished, it can be this kind of conversation, that's what I love about podcasting. There's not this pressure. There's not a, "Hey, write an article, you know, that looms over your head." It's really sitting down and talking about things you know for a half an hour. But I do think, we talk a lot about the skillset of knowledge extraction. You know, that is a real skillset that I'm sure your team has. We shouldn't overlook that, but that's a real key. Like you said, things like showing them that you're not asking them the same information twice. You've done your homework, you're repurposing it, educating them, all those things. So, I love that.  The other thing I want to make sure and ask, cause you've said, a vital aspect — this is in your bio — is the firm's custom dashboard that serves as the communications and data hub for the firm. Tell me a little bit about that.  [00:15:44] Katie Robinson: A long time ago, we developed a LS3P Dashboard, and essentially we did this because at the time there was not an internet solution that we felt really served our needs in terms of being a one-stop-shop for resources, but also allowing us to communicate with one another and share the knowledge that we were collecting. So we created our own. Essentially, the benefit that came from that is it really helped to propel our knowledge management efforts within the firm because if you create something like that, you better have content for it or it's just going to become static.  [00:16:23] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.  [00:16:23] Katie Robinson: So for a number of years, our dashboard has been amazing. We're actually in the process of converting to a new internet system that is developed for our industry, and we're really excited about that. But, again, what the dashboard taught us is the importance of things like strategic reporting in order to make really sound decisions about the future of our firm. Sharing resources, like codes. "Where do I go to find codes?" "Well, you go here." So people aren't spending their time reinventing the wheel over and over. And then we have a lot of project data that we have gathered through our data manager program. We put it in our database, but we needed a place to be able to kind of disseminate it, and what does this really mean, you know?  [00:17:09] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.  [00:17:09] Katie Robinson: So we were able to put in, and again, that's where I'm able to totally geek out on all of the knowledge management, data and analytics side, but then also say, "Okay, we're sending this to a group of creatives. It needs to be marketed in a way that creative individuals are going to be able to absorb it." [00:17:29] Michelle Calcote King: Well, and I think that becomes even more important as a lot of people are remote, you know, with the inundation of information nowadays. You know, you kind of have to, you have to take information, make it very digestible for really anyone, make it very visual, so that's critical. I'd like to talk about architecture marketing as a whole. So you've been in this for a long time, what have been the big changes and what changes are you kind of looking toward or anticipating?  [00:17:57] Katie Robinson: Yes. I would say proposals are getting more complex. The questions that they ask are getting a little bit more difficult to answer. A lot of it is Database, which is nice to be able to have that at our fingertips.  Competition is also a lot steeper and especially in the Southeast. We have a lot of the national firms making their way into our backyards, which is great. We partner with them often. We love them. But it still is a different level of competition.  [00:18:32] Michelle Calcote King: Sure.  [00:18:32] Katie Robinson: The benefit of that is it's allowed us to see we can do this. We can compete with these national firms. We can step up our game. It's taught us the importance of brand awareness, but also the importance of relationships. And we've developed those among 60 years of business.  [00:18:51] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.  [00:18:52] Katie Robinson: So, I would say from a responsive effort, it is just the complexity and the amounts of efforts that we're chasing. For the proactive, you know, social media is all the rage still. It's not going to go away. And it's really been fun to watch, especially over the past five years or so, how our social media presence is so much more targeted. We have an external engagement sub-team. They are fantastic at figuring out which type of posts are going to get the most engagement and reach the most people. But they look at it, not only from a reaching the clients, but reaching possible recruits and future team members, which is just as important. So it's really interesting to see the role that social media is playing in our industry.  And, obviously, you've hit the nail on the head. Things like podcasts are just such a thing that if you would have asked me even just two years ago, "Would we be doing this to help advance marketing in our industry?" I would say, "No. Absolutely not."  [00:20:00] Michelle Calcote King: I know, right? Yeah, I resisted it for a while too. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.  [00:20:05] Katie Robinson: So, I think that, you know, by embracing the trends, embracing technology, we are able to advance our industry in terms of marketing.  What I hope to see more firms, and I think a lot of firms are going in this direction. What I would love to see them promote a little bit more in terms of marketing is also the importance of career advancement for the marketing team members because while we have chosen to be in the architecture industry under that umbrella, I think a lot of firms don't really think, "Oh yeah, they're building their careers, too. So maybe there should be some paths and options for them." So I would love that thinking to twist a little bit. And it's beyond marketing. You know, you're talking about your HR, your technology teams, your convenience teams, everybody who works behind the scenes. It is really important to advocate for them and remember that we're growing our careers here, too.  [00:21:06] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. There's a woman in the legal industry who runs a recruiting firm and she coined this term called "revenue-enablers." So she calls marketers revenue-enablers, and I thought, "That's so smart," because her point was that, you know, while the marketing people within professional services firms might not be billing and generating revenue, they're making that possible and they're supporting it, and so it's such a critical function. And I love that framing of the issue because I think, yeah, that marketing people can often feel, you know, less than, or treated less than, or just not, like you said, you're within a firm where the career path isn't as defined. So, I love to hear that.  Do you see any big trend on the horizon that you guys are looking at and saying, Oh, we gotta keep an eye on that?" [00:21:51] Katie Robinson: Well, I'll tell you something we need to keep an eye on, whether it's a good one or a bad one, I don't know, but that's AI. [00:21:58] Michelle Calcote King: I feel like it came out of nowhere, right? Yeah.  [00:22:02] Katie Robinson: Every industry will say the same thing, you know. I mean, just small things like ChatGPT, it's very interesting and incredibly terrifying all at once. You spoke earlier about still the desire for that human connection, and my hope is that still wins out in the end. Although, how we're approaching it is try not to be quite so terrified of it coming, but embrace it without letting it take over our relationships.  [00:22:37] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, we're kind of, we're doing the same. We're dipping our toe. We're kind of, you know, seeing where it can be valuable. Yeah. You know, there's just so many concerns about confidentiality and all of this is just a lot to get your head around, but I'm the same way. You've got to embrace it. You got to see where it's going to fit. I mean, people were saying the same about social media and Google, you know, 20 years ago, so, or whenever. I think social media is actually younger than that. But yeah, now look, it's just a part of our daily lives and just a part of how we work. So, yeah, I think it's just kind of, we've all got to figure this new one out and it keeps us on our toes. Before we end, and these always go a lot quicker than I thought, is there anything you'd like to share, an important lesson you hope our listeners take away or anything we've talked about that — that we haven't touched on that you'd like to share? I know it's a big question, but I always like to leave on it. Yeah.  [00:23:31] Katie Robinson: So I can share one of the biggest lessons that I've learned— [00:23:34] Michelle Calcote King: I would love that. Yeah.  [00:23:35] Katie Robinson: —in not only this industry, but I think in life and in general is the importance of observing and asking questions. And I think a lot of times, especially as we're coming up in our career, a lot of individuals see asking questions as a weakness, but it is such a tremendous strength. To be able to really sit back, observe what people are doing, and then asking just really specific questions about what they're doing, how did they get here? It's so important. I tell individuals, too, if you're in the office and not working remote, take your headset off. Listen to the conversations that are going on around you because you've can learn so much.  When I first started here about a year and a half after I started, I had a really great opportunity because our CEO at the time, Tom Penney, needed some graphic assistance for an upcoming internal meeting with the shareholders. And I thought that was so cool. You know, here I was, I'm new to the firm and I get to see what the shareholders are talking about. It was really interesting. And so I started working side-by-side with Tom on that, as well as in other internal meetings, and I was absorbing all of the things that they were saying, but then I was questioning it. You know, I was questioning, I was talking to our finance person about the financials, cause you know, I had three whole classes in accounting, so obviously I knew what I was doing. But just understanding what is a utilization rate? Why does it matter? And, you know, asking all of these questions that had nothing to do with marketing. I was able to learn so much about our industry and how business worked. When I did start to really build in my career, I was able to connect them and say, "Okay, well, marketing can actually help you, Finance Group, because you're having to explain finances to a bunch of creative people, let us help you with that. So I would say just that was probably the biggest thing that I learned was that asking questions is not a sign of weakness. You know, vulnerability isn't a sign of weakness and that's the way that you can truly grow as a person and also grow in your career.  [00:25:55] Michelle Calcote King: That's really important advice. It's something I tell my team all the time, too, especially when you work in these expertise-driven industries. You're working with people who have very deep knowledge in a particular area, so it's really critical that you ask questions cause the more you know about their challenges and their knowledge, the better you are as a marketer. So, agree with that a hundred percent.  Well, thank you for sharing that, and thank you for joining us. So we've been talking to Katie Robinson of C3PO—no, just kidding—LS3P. And Katie, if people wanted to connect with you, what's the best way for them to do so? [00:26:31] Katie Robinson: Sure. They can send me an email. It's just KatieRobinson@LS3P.com. So it's pretty easy. Also LinkedIn. Use social media.  [00:26:39] Michelle Calcote King: Yes. Good one. All right. Well, thank you so much.  [00:26:42] Katie Robinson: Awesome. Thank you.  [00:26:45]: Thanks for listening to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes.

Jennifer Haferbecker, Chief Marketing Officer at HGA, discusses the fast-paced evolution of architecture marketing. She highlights the growing importance of role specialization and innovative marketing strategies in a post-pandemic world. Haferbecker shares insights on how branding impacts client experience and the necessity of establishing a marketing technology department. She also emphasizes the role of brand ambassadors and the value of professional development for young professionals, advocating for continuous learning and empowerment in the industry.

Some say that running a business is an art, not a science. But professional services firm owners should have a documented strategy for growing and scaling their business to one day (fingers-crossed) sell their company for millions of dollars. In 2017, Greg Alexander sold his consulting firm for $162 million. Now he’s on a mission to help other business owners achieve similar success.  In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” Michelle invites Greg to share lessons from his multi-million-dollar success story. They discuss the three stages of a firm’s life cycle — growth, scale and exit — as well as what owners should do at each stage to have a lasting impact on their firm’s value. Greg also emphasizes the importance of expanded service offerings, succession planning and good brand reputation as part of a firm’s long-term strategy. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Greg Alexander and what is Collective 54 How Greg sold his boutique professional services firm for $162 million Do’s and don’ts for growing, scaling and selling your business Why you need to start succession planning early What the founder bottleneck is and how to overcome it Signs it’s time to sell your firm The ideal exit strategy for professional services firms How brand reputation could impact your ability to sell  About our featured guest Greg Alexander is the founder of Collective 54, the first mastermind community dedicated exclusively to thriving professional services firms with big aspirations. Collective 54 helps members make more money, work less and get to an exit bigger and faster. Members get access to a network of peers, proprietary content and benchmarking data, coaching, events and software, all custom-built to serve the unique needs of boutique professional services firms. After selling his own professional services firm, the consulting firm SBI, for $162 million, Greg founded Collective 54, and authored the best- selling book “The Boutique: How to Start, Scale, and Sell a Professional Services Firm.” He is also the host of the popular podcast “The Pro Serv Podcast.” Through his expertise and guidance, Greg helps members of Collective 54 grow, scale and exit their firms. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Collective 54 Follow Collective 54 on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn Connect with Greg Alexander on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Buy Greg’s book: “The Boutique: How To Start, Scale, And Sell A Professional Services Firm” Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Greg Alexander: When the business is completely dependent on a founder, that's actually not a firm, that's a practice. A firm is a real asset, and the value of the firm goes way beyond the value of the founder. [music] [00:00:16]: Welcome to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now let's get started with the show. [music] [00:00:33] Michelle Calcote King: Hey everyone, and welcome to "Spill the Ink." I'm Michelle Calco King. I'm the podcast host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.  Today we're talking about a professional services firm's growth and scaling. A firm's path from a startup to a multi-million dollar business is rarely a straight line. There are turns, curves, peaks and dips all along the process, making a clear, long-term strategy critical to success. How can professional services firms evaluate and maximize growth, scaling and selling opportunities throughout their lifecycle? We're gonna explore that today in this episode. The perfect person to talk to about that is our guest today. Our guest is Greg Alexander. His company Collective 54, is dedicated to helping boutique professional services firms grow, scale and exit their business. Before launching Collective 54, Greg ran his own boutique professional services firm, which he eventually sold for $162 million. Wow. He also authored the bestselling book called "The Boutique: How to Start Scale and Sell a Professional Services Firm," and he hosts the "Pro Serve Podcast." Welcome to the show.  [00:01:53] Greg Alexander: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.  [00:01:55] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. Excited to talk about this. Tell me a little bit about, Collective 54 and the clients that you work with. [00:02:01] Greg Alexander: Collective 54 is what's known as a mastermind community. It's the first of its kind in that it's focused exclusively on the unique needs of the thriving boutique proserv firm. Members come in three kind of flavors, if you will. There's growth members, and these tend to be younger firms, maybe in the early days of their journey. They're trying to kind of figure out how to survive. How to grow to a certain level, etcetera. The next phase is the scaling phase, and we've got a group of members there. They're no longer worrying about surviving, but they're working 70 hours a week and they kind of want to figure out how to work smarter, not harder. The third group is the exit group. They've been doing it a long time. They want to do something else with their lives and they need to figure out how to sell their firms. Selling a professional services firm is a very nuanced thing, so we help them with that.  The number 54 is in the name Collective 54, because that's the North American classification code for professional services. So what's in that is what you might think: law firms, accounting firms, consulting firms, marketing agencies, IT service providers, architects, etcetera, etcetera. Pretty much experts that sell and deliver their expertise.  [00:03:15] Michelle Calcote King: Love it. I'd love to hear a little bit about your background in, selling a firm for, such a draw dropping number. Tell me a little bit about that.  [00:03:25] Greg Alexander: The name of the firm was called SBI.. I started that firm in 2006 and it was a management consulting firm in kind of a classic sense of the word. , We were heavily niched. We focused on business-to-business sales effectiveness. Our client base was a blend between kind of the Global 2000, so people that had huge investments in large sales forces, and also private equity firms that would buy companies and their thesis around buying the companies was to grow them. Our services were in demand there. In 2017 we sold that firm to a private equity, and the price was $162 million. And I share that number not to be braggadocious — sometimes it comes across the wrong way — but I share that to inspire people and say, "A service firm can actually pull this off," because it bothers me when they say, "Services firms can't scale and services firms can't exit and they're not wealth creating." That's not true, and I'm a walking example of that.  [00:04:27] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, absolutely. What better proof point that you know what you're talking about to help firms scale? Absolutely. Along your path, what were some of those key things that you did right — I'm gonna also ask you what you did wrong — but that were critical to scaling and exiting the business that are now kind of foundational to your work with clients.  [00:04:50] Greg Alexander: There were several. I'll try to categorize them into the three steps of the journey. I like to say that a boutique goes on a life cycle. It's about 15 years on average. Start to finish is three stages: Grow, scale and exit. About five years in each stage. For me, in the growth stage, the critical things were to make sure that I knew the problem that I was solving for the client. In the early days a mistake I made was that I was running around with a solution looking for a problem, and that's very difficult to be successful. So we switched that, got really focused on what the problem was, and that really helped. The second thing in the growth stage, I would say is we got really tight on who our ideal client profile was because when you're a small company you have limited resources. There are only so many hours in the day, dollars in the bank and heads on the org chart. Concentrating those resources against an ideal client profile was super important for us, and that allowed us to grow a lot.  When we got to the scale stage, it was about working smarter, not harder. Specifically what that meant was generating revenue from things other than the billable hour. It was tech-enabling service delivery so we could be that much more productive on a revenue per head basis. It was leveraging global talent in different geographies around the world. And it was getting really smart on how we priced our services. Those things really kicked, the scale engine into gear.  Then when we got to the exit stage it really came down to three things. It came down to profit margin. We were very profitable. It came down to, the business not being dependent on me, the founder, because it's tough to buy a firm when it's dependent on one person. And about reducing client concentration. A lot of services companies look good on paper, but when you double-click, they got two or three clients that are 40, 50% of the revenue, and that's too risky for someone to buy. So, those are some of the things that we did along the way that helped quite a bit. And those are the things that we teach Collective 54 members in addition to others.  [00:06:45] Michelle Calcote King: That's great. What are some of the things along your journey that you wish you'd done differently that you help clients see and avoid? [00:06:54] Greg Alexander: I would say that we took too long. We should have made it through the growth stage — instead of five years — probably could have got there in two or three years, but I was the first-time founder figuring this stuff out on my own. I just didn't know any better so I made a lot of mistakes. The advice I'd give your audience is to tap into mastermind communities, whether it's mine or somebody else's. Being around peers can really help 'cause you can avoid paying some dumb taxes. I would say in the scale stage, I probably didn't get serious enough about succession planning. When I got to the exit stage everybody wanted to know could the business run without me.We were able to prove that that was true, and the firm has done very well since I've left, but there was a lot of convincing there. If I'd gotten engaged in succession planning much earlier, it would've made my life a lot easier.  Third I would probably say investing in new service delivery. We didn't do that fast enough. When things are going well, you think they're gonna go well forever. Then one day we woke up and we had this gold-plated client roster. In the early days we were a one-trick pony selling one thing. Eventually we migrated not only from sales effectiveness, but to marketing, to product, to general management, and I would've done that faster. So, the advice to audience members is to expand the service offerings as quickly as possible.  [00:08:13] Michelle Calcote King: Interesting. How does that compare to the prevailing wisdom around being very niche-focused? You mentioned being very kind of niche early on. So, expanding service offerings, are you still doing that within a niche? How do you balance that?  [00:08:29] Greg Alexander: Everything comes back to the fundamental problem we were solving, and that problem was we helped our clients grow their revenue stream faster than their competitors. That was the niche, and that was a really tight niche, but within our client base, there were a lot of people working on that problem. There was a sales leader, of course, and that was our first type of client, but marketing is heavily involved. The product leader is spending a lot of money bringing out new products. This is a top of mind issue for the CEO, etcetera. So it was still the same very tight niche, but we were expanding from function to function within that niche that allowed us to really grow.  [00:09:07] Michelle Calcote King: Nice. Okay. I'm curious — just because we work with professional services firms, we work with, law firms, architecture firms, engineering firms, that kind of thing. Do you find any differences between the types of professional services firms that you work with and the types of, problems that they tend to encounter or ways that they're scaling? [00:09:25] Greg Alexander: This is a great question and it's somewhat of a religious battle, so I'm glad that you asked it. Point of view. They're much less different than they think they are because they operate off the same business model. And that business model is they're marketing, selling and delivering expertise. Now where they differ is the expertise that they sell. Law firms and marketing agencies on paper don't look like they have a lot in common because their domain expertise is so different. However, their business model is identical. They still have to win clients; they still have to hire people; they still have to scope work correctly; they still have to manage their certain margin profile, you know, etcetera, etcetera. The business model is identical, but the domain is different.  [00:10:09] Michelle Calcote King: Interesting. I'm a member of a mastermind. Tell me a little bit about how it works for folks who maybe aren't familiar with what masterminds are.  [00:10:19] Greg Alexander: The principle of a mastermind community is peer-to-peer learning. All, uh, wonderful mastermind groups have six components to them. And we're standing on the shoulders of giants, of people that came before us, and these are the six that have been around for, I don't know, a hundred years.  So number one is you gotta build the network of peers, and they have to be real peers. What frustrates some is they join a community and they realize that this isn't their peeps. This isn't their tribe, and they're like, "These really aren't my peers." So it has to be a high quality network. That's number one.  Number two, they gotta produce interesting and insightful content. That content is usually user-generated content. It bubbles up from that network. I think that's gonna be particularly important going forward because we're living in the age of AI where content's gonna become a commodity. But when the content is coming from your peers, it's not a commodity. So it's very unique.  The third thing is data. All mastermind communities provide benchmarking data. So for example, are you charging enough of your services? Are you earning enough from a margin perspective? Being able to see the data of other members is really important.  Number four is software. Most mastermind communities have wonderful, member directories so you're only a click away from getting access to help. These days it's much like a social media feed. They have that so you can get instantaneous help. One of our members calls it "The Human Google." That's one.  The next is events. Thankfully the pandemic is behind us. We want to get together and go to events that are not just sitting in a Las Vegas conference room with 5,000 of your friends. Rather, going to an intimate event with maybe a hundred of your peers as an example.  The last one is coaching. Coaching comes in many forms. I can get coached by a mentor and I can be a mentee. Or I can get coached by, like, we have an advisory board that's handpicked individuals that happen to be experts. It's something that's relevant to our members, etcetera. So, those are the six items that are present in the best mastermind communities, and they're certainly the six things that we've built in Collective 54. Those are the six things that our members get value from.  [00:12:27] Michelle Calcote King: When you say content, what do you mean by that? We're a thought leadership content firm. Are you talking about content that you're sharing amongst members or these are firms that are generating great thought leadership content on a regular basis and sharing it with each other? Explain that a little bit more.  [00:12:43] Greg Alexander: It's not thought leadership content. I'm glad you asked that clarifying question. It's kind of like in-the-guts content. What I mean by that is like, I just got off of a member call and one member was sharing his template for a forecast because a lot of our members are really struggling with matching revenue and expenses because there's some volatility in the economy. Everybody knows that they have to create a forecast, but that's a big word. That word forecast is at 30,000 feet. How do I get a running start by stealing somebody else's templates? I'm 80% of the way there when I get started. It's that kind of content. Very practical. How to, best practice style content.  [00:13:24] Michelle Calcote King: Got it. Okay. One of the things that I often see with firms, especially professional services firms and especially law firms, is sort of that founder bottleneck. Can you talk a little bit about that and how, you help firms overcome that? Because I assume that's probably the number one critical thing that most firms face when trying to scale to the next level.  [00:13:48] Greg Alexander: Yeah, it is. Someone once told me along the way is that you start your firm to go into business for yourself. Then you wake up one day and you realize you're not in business for yourself, you're working for your clients. Then as your journey continues, you wake up one day and you're not working for yourself or your clients, you're working for your employees. At the end of that journey, you wake up one day and added to yourself, clients and employees, end up working for the investors or the bank. And that's very, very true. When the business is completely dependent on a founder, that's actually not a firm, that's a practice. A firm is a real asset, and the value of the firm goes way beyond the value of the founder. Sometimes, like in our community, most of our members, in fact, about 90% of them, this is the first firm they've ever started. So they don't necessarily know this yet, and the separation between firm and founder hasn't happened yet, but it's mission critical for it to happen because in the end, scaling a firm is just too much work for one person. As you get bigger, you can't get to what it is you're trying to get to if you're one person. Building a bankable executive management team is mission critical. And being an effective delegator to that management team is a critical element in scale. I will tell you it's something that most first time founders get wrong because, let's face it, the profile of a founder is they're fiercely independent, somewhat stubborn people, and they can suffer from micromanagement. Delegating is a tough thing for them, and trusting other people is a tough thing for them. So, they gotta get over that if they truly wanna scale their firm.  [00:15:37] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. I noticed in your blog that you talk a little bit about growth by acquisition versus organic growth. How do you help firms determine what strategy is best for them and help them find their way with that?  [00:15:51] Greg Alexander: The way that we discuss growth is the first thing to do is to grow your current clients. Expand revenue from your current clients. Having an effective account management team in place that can spot new opportunity in the current client base is the first strategy. When you get out of the growth stage and you get to the scale stage, the revenue growth switches from acquiring new clients to expanding existing clients. New clients are always important, don't get me wrong, but the majority of the growth is gonna come from expanding your current clients because in the scale stage, that's what you have now. You have a client roster. In the early days, you don't really have a client roster, so all your revenue's coming from new clients. That's the first thing. Now, what do you have to do to expand revenue with your existing clients? Well, you have to come out with new services. And that is the lowest risk, highest probability way to grow your firm. Now, if you have a services roadmap that says, "Hey, I need to develop these services over the next 2, 3, 4, 5 years," it may make sense to buy a company, buy a firm that already has that service and bring them in. Where that works is when you have demand in your client roster for that service. So just by that firm, being part of your firm, you're gonna exponentially grow their revenue because you're gonna take that new service to your client base. Where it doesn't work is when you buy a competitor, one plus one, oftentimes equals 0.5 there because there's too much client overlap, and it's just not expanding the pie. It's just a defensive move to get rid of a pesky competitor.  [00:17:34] Michelle Calcote King: Got it. Interesting.  What do you see are those typical signs that it's time for a founder to exit? What are founders normally experiencing when they get to that third stage and they're looking to sell? [00:17:51] Greg Alexander: Well, there's a few things. First, the job satisfaction of the founder plummets because they're a long way away from the early days. Founders are pioneers. They like to be on the razor's edge and be out there trying new things. Scaling is in contrast to that. Scaling is doing more of what you've already done, just doing it better, faster, cheaper. Sometimes founders don't like that. So, that's the first thing I would say.  [00:18:16] Michelle Calcote King: Meaning founders are just sort of like shiny object syndrome? Is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah? Okay. And it's hard to kind of stick and just optimize. Okay. Yeah, I get that. [00:18:27] Greg Alexander: Yeah. So that would be one. The second one would be is that the market responsiveness, is the way I would say it, of the firm is degrading because the people in the firm have not been empowered to make decisions. You know, kind of all roads run through the founder, and when a firm gets busy, the decision-making cycle can get long. The remedy to that is to push decision-making power to those closest to the client so they can be super responsive in the marketplace. So, that's one. Another one would be lack of growth, top line revenue growth. Because again, it's too much work for one person, so you might have a business that was growing 30% a year for 10 years, and then all of a sudden it's growing at 20%, 10%, 5% because the founder is in the way strangling the growth. And then the last one, which is an easy one, is age. Founders they start their firms — the average age, and this was reported by Harvard Business Review, I believe, of a founder of a professional services firm is 44.  [00:19:25] Michelle Calcote King: Really? Oh, wow, okay. [00:19:27] Greg Alexander: Isn't that surprising? Yeah. So our belief is it takes 15 years approximately on average to go from cradle to grave. So if you push 15 years on top of 44, now all of a sudden you're in the retirement age. It's time to move on at that point, and can you? Do you have the next generation that can take the baton from you at that point in time? And that doesn't happen overnight. It can take 3, 4, 5 years to get the next generation ready to take over. [00:19:53] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, absolutely. I would've thought it would've taken longer.  What does an ideal exit strategy look like? Give me a few of those ideal things that you've gotta have. Asking for a friend.  [00:20:07] Greg Alexander: I'll give you the qualitative and quantitative. So qualitative is that you as the founder are at peace with it. You've decided that you've been validated and it's time for you to move on, and you're not gonna have any kind of seller's regret after the fact. So, that's number one. Number two is along the way, you probably have some very loyal employees that are approaching family member status. You want to make sure that when you leave that those employees are very well taken care of. That's the second requirement. And the third requirement is similar in that it's clients. You probably have some longstanding clients that you care about and you have some relationships with, and you probably wanna make sure that they continue to be well served after your departure. On the quantitative side, it really comes down to two things. That is what's the purchase price that you sell your firm for? Do you feel good? That you're being fairly compensated for the asset that you created? The second thing is what are the terms of the deal? Depending on who you sell to, like, if you sell the private equity, there could be an equity role. If you sell to a strategic, there could be an earnout. If you sell to your employees, it could be a seller's note. The terms of the deal matter just as much as the purchase price.  [00:21:18] Michelle Calcote King: As part of your mastermind, it sounds like if you're in that third stage, you have access to all of those sorts of experts to help guide you. That's fantastic. I love the fact that you break it up into those three different stages. Even my mastermind that I'm a member of, you've got a lot of people at different stages of theirjourney. And it's all marketing agencies, but that does make a difference. Absolutely.  [00:21:44] Greg Alexander: It does. And that's why we did it. And that comes back to the fundamental principle of a mastermind that it's gotta be real peers. You might be a marketing agency, but you could be at drastically different points on the journey and dealing with different issues, right?  [00:21:58] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, and just different desires and wants, which goes along with that stage of growth. I've got two more questions. For my own benefit, how much does reputation and brand play a role in, a professional services, sale?  [00:22:14] Greg Alexander: Oh, it's essential. I mean, professional services is an intangible. It's not like you go to buy a car, you can take a test drive. With professional services, you really can't do that. So what stands in substitute for being able to demo the product, if you will, is the reputation. If you're an expert, that's what you're trading on. People are looking to you to be an expert and it's so mission critical. That's why when I got to know you a little bit, you know, I know that you focus on that a lot and you know, how does a professional services founder establish a reputation? Well, there's the traditional way. It's like, for example, you mentioned my book, "The Boutique: How to Start, Scale, and Sell a Professional Services Firm." A book is a great way to do that, but I also have a blog, I've got a podcast, I've got a YouTube channel, you know, etcetera, etcetera. You have to establish your reputation. The best way, of course, is to do great work because word of mouth is mission critical, right?  [00:23:11] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. That's the price of entry. Yeah, 100 percent.   Tell me what is the most important lesson, if you had to sum it all up, that you hope our listeners take away from this conversation? [00:23:23] Greg Alexander: Don't go it alone. Being a founder of a proserv firm is hard. I have this thing, I talk about, "The founder's trail." When you step on the founder's trail — think of that as like a trail towards climbing up a mountain, if you will. You step on a founder's trail, you're leaving, God forbid, all the cowards behind because it takes a lot of courage just to step on the trail. And then as you go along the trail, kind of the weak die off because not everybody can go through the three phases. There's a ton of small business owners, but there's very few entrepreneurs. A small business owner is someone who's running a nice little practice paying the bills. An entrepreneur is someone who's building a firm that's someday gonna be worth a lot of money. So as the weak kind of die off along the way, you reach that top, that pinnacle, if you will. And along the way it's such a bumpy ride that a lot of self-doubt will creep in and you might give up too early if you don't surround yourself with a peer group. But being around a peer group, they'll be that support system that you need to keep pushing when the times it looks like, "Geez, this might be too hard." Just hang in there. So don't go at it alone would be my advice.  [00:24:32] Michelle Calcote King: I love it. It's so true. I've heard often people talk, and I experience this a lot, it's a very lonely experience, too, to found a company. You have no cohorts in the early days. And then those colleagues that you used to have, there's suddenly that gap. So that's what masterminds are great for. You suddenly have someone to at least ask questions to, but also just complain when you need it or have that group to talk to who are going through the same thing as you. It is invaluable.  Well, thank you so much. We have been talking to Greg Alexander of Collective 54. Where is the best place for people to learn about you, and especially to buy your book?  [00:25:10] Greg Alexander: The book is on Amazon. Again, it's, "The Boutique How to Start, Scale, and Sell a Professional Services Firm" by Greg Alexander. The website is collective54.com, and on the website, I would encourage all of you to subscribe to our newsletter, which is called Collective 54 Insights. There you'll get a blog, a podcast, a video, a bunch of content beyond the book. And if you're interested in meeting peers and being in a mastermind community consider applying. You can fill out a Contact Us form on the website, and one of our representatives will be in contact with you.  [00:25:46] Michelle Calcote King: Thank you so much.  [00:25:47] Greg Alexander: It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me. [music] [00:25:50] Thanks for listening to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.  

What do we all do before making a decision? Research. Market research enables architecture, engineering and construction firms to make strategic decisions about their business. Firms can use the information for diverse purposes, including to plan for the future, create buy-in, break into a new market and identify missed opportunities in their current markets. How do you know you’re doing “good” research? How should you incorporate your findings into your marketing strategy? Michelle invites Sarah Kinard to weigh in on the conversation in this episode of “Spill the Ink.” Sarah is the owner of The Flamingo Project, a market research and strategy consultancy for AEC firms. They discuss how firms can use market research to their advantage, common pitfalls to avoid, considerations before kickstarting a research project, and more. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Sarah Kinard and what is The Flamingo Project What market research is and how to get started Why AEC firms commonly engage market research firms How market research supports growth strategies and decision-making  How market research information supports content development How to tell the difference between “good” and “bad” information What to know before engaging a market research firm  About our featured guest Sarah Kinard is a strategic visionary with over 20 years of experience in professional services firm strategy, marketing and implementation. She is known as a change agent and is frequently hired by firms to create a strategy rooted in research, business practice and scale, resulting in their unique growth plan. Her career has taken her from a well-regarded regional firm, to a national K-12 firm to begin a higher education practice that went global, to a global interior architecture firm focused on hospitality. Her experience and understanding of differing markets, project types and growth strategies bring thoughtful, tailored research to her clients. She is constantly curious and able to weave together market data and trends in insightful and actionable ways. Sarah's curiosity, fail-forward/fail-fast approach and desire to have fun in everything she does are the hallmarks of how she “does it differently.” Sarah serves the AEC industry as a Trustee for the SMPS Foundation, as past president for the SMPS North Texas Chapter, and recently received the Hall of Fame award from SMPS North Texas. She partners with many business consulting agencies in the industry, including Zweig Group, Go Strategies and Elevate Marketing Advisors. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out The Flamingo Project Follow The Flamingo Project on LinkedIn Connect with Sarah Kinard on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah Kinard: I tell people that information is your compass. That's what market research gives you, information to make decisions. [music] [00:00:11]: Welcome to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now let's get started with the show. [music] [00:00:28] Michelle Calcote King: Hey everyone, I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for architecture, engineering and construction firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com. Today we're going to talk about market research. Market research is often the compass that leads successful marketing campaigns, but what is the key to conducting good research and how can it help architecture, engineering and construction firms empower their marketing initiatives, chase growth opportunities and achieve success? Today I'm excited to welcome Sarah Kinard to talk about the topic. Sarah's the owner of The Flamingo Project. In addition to having a very cool company name, The Flamingo Project is a market research and strategy consultancy designed to grow existing AEC firms and launch new businesses. Sarah currently serves as a trustee on the Society for Marketing Professional Services Foundation and is a past president of that organization's Dallas Group. Thanks for joining me today, Sarah. [00:01:37] Sarah: Thanks. [00:01:38] Michelle: I'm excited. One, give me a little background about your career, why you created the Flamingo Project, and I always tell people not to double-barrel questions, but I'm going to do it. Tell me about how you came up with a name. [00:01:50] Sarah: That's okay. It's a good question. I'm a marketer at heart and when I figured out that that was my calling, I was at a small liberal arts college and they didn't have a marketing degree. They had traditional business, communication arts, those sorts of degrees. I went to the Board of Regents and created an interdisciplinary degree. So, apparently, I've always been an entrepreneur and I didn't know it.  [00:02:16] Michelle: Very cool. [00:02:17] Sarah: Marketing, communicating an idea has always been something that has fascinated me. I was the little kid loving commercials. Of course, like so many of us, I didn't find myself at a product. I found myself at a service, which is a different thing. My first full-time career job was at an architecture firm that designs everything but hospitals and jails. That's really where I learned the craft of architecture, fell in love with the industry and specifically, urban planning and how the profession can shape communities and cities for the better. Sometimes they’re not always for the better.  Once I had the industry jargon under my belt and understood how projects came to fruition, how you win projects, I joined a firm who hired me to work with a principal to establish a new practice. It was a firm that had a 60-year-old history of doing K-12 work only, and they wanted to get into higher ed. 100-year buildings are a different thing than K-12 buildings. That's really where I found that research was at the core of how I was going to make it work; understanding the differences in the markets, what was needed, how to identify projects, obviously, competition, differentiators, you name it. That's really where I found market research as such a core to who I am and how I operate. From there, I went national with the firm with higher ed. After that, it was what's the growth strategy beyond this for the firm? Acquisition was clearly the right path for them, but not for me. I decided to move on to a global firm. It was actually global. A lot of the times we talk about how it's a global firm, but do you actually have a global role? I had people in Shanghai, Singapore, all over the US, London, Paris, Dubai reporting to me. [00:04:09] Michelle: Very cool. [00:04:10] Sarah: I say the time zones were brutal, the travel was amazing. It was time to stop doing that.  [00:04:19] Michelle: I know travel is very sexy until you start doing it regularly for work. [00:04:25] Sarah: Exactly. From there, I was trying to discern what was next and I got to speak with fantastic firms out there who wanted me to help them to grow. I realized I wanted to help a lot of firms grow and that was when I decided that my next step was not for me to go into another firm.  One of the things that research gives you is the understanding of the market, of differentiation, of how you need to look differently, and what stands out from the flock? A flamingo. [00:04:59] Michelle: Love it. That's cool. I love that. I'm just curious because I know how long it took me to come up with my own company name. Did you know it? Did you have it in your heart? Or did it come from a painstaking process of a million names and coming down to that one? [00:05:18] Sarah: It's going to sound little nuts, but when I was having the revelation that this is what I needed to do I was sitting at our family lake house alone, which at that time never happened. We would all be there at the same time. My mother-in-law was obsessed with flamingos and there was a flamingo staring at me on the mantle. [00:05:39] Michelle: That's funny. I love that. [00:05:41] Sarah: The flamingo made me do it, is the other thing I like to say. [00:05:45] Michelle: I love it. I think it's great. [00:05:47] Sarah: It just also worked out. [00:05:49] Michelle: Let's talk about market research and AEC firms because this is an industry that is not known for being the most forward-thinking and progressive. Tell me about the kinds of market research that you do in AEC. [00:06:04] Sarah: I've really spent a lot of time trying to help firms boil this down because it is a little alien to them. They don't know what they're looking for, they don't know what to ask for.  I like to say, basically, there's different purposes for market research and understanding what the purpose is. Is it a growth initiative for your firm? A growth initiative could look anything like a new sector, a new service, a new region. Is it to really understand your brand position? Is it to understand where you can do more strategic promotion, is what I like to say, whether it's PR or conferences, any of that. Is it competitor profiling? Really understanding where you sit with your competition. Content development. What do we need to be talking about? Then going back to growth sector and geography forecasts. Are we in the right sectors and the right geographies for our services right now? Are they changing dramatically? I also refer to it as a health check, understanding where it is. And pursuit specific, of course. We're real accustomed to anything once we get an RFQ RFP in our hands for research. Where did that come from, who's our competition, what are our differentiators there? We're good once we get to pursuits specific, usually it's pulling back from that. I'd like to say that those are usually the purposes and sometimes that can be in tandem with a strategic plan. Sometimes it can be because you lost something you didn't expect to lose. There can be reasons to give energy to the idea of market research, but those are the common purposes. [00:07:54] Michelle: Do you see that AEC firms only do market research as a one-off? Have you worked with some firms that are really starting to incorporate it as something that they do day in, day out, it's a regular part of how they operate? Are you seeing that shift? [00:08:09] Sarah: I am seeing that shift. It's very exciting and I really believe that it is indicative of the transition of leadership to the next generation.  One of the big differences between, let's say the boomer generation that has owned firms for a long time and done amazing owning the firms, but also benefited from really long-term expansion of markets. Yes, there were downturns in there, don't get me wrong. There were downturns, but they were all fairly typical. There was a cause and so there was a response. It was less multifaceted than the world that we are in today.  That is also a generation that started a firm, grew it locally, regionally, and maybe beyond, and could do that very well through relationships and not necessarily through market information. The generation that's taking over in leadership now, whether they're Gen X or millennials, are more accustomed to having access to information to make decisions, period. It's how they operate. It's very exciting to me when I get these phone calls where somebody says, "I've just been moved into a director of strategy role for the firm, and so I'm responsible for looking at potential growth opportunities, but I don't know how to do that. Can you help mentor me in how to do that?" Which it's thrilling to me. It's thrilling that firms are saying, "How can we make sure that this firm stays really viable for our employees, for our clients, for the communities we're serving?" It's very exciting. [00:10:03] Michelle: Yes, I bet. It's really rewarding when something you've been telling clients forever that, "This is a good thing, this is important," and then they start to implement it and ask for it without you having to struggle and push them toward it, I know that feeling.  We do a lot of content for AEC firms. Tell me about the work that you're doing to help fuel content. I'd love to hear more about that. What research are you doing and then, tell me about the output. [00:10:31] Sarah: What I'm doing is very different from what you are doing. I am saying very much, at the high level, strategic, "This is where we want to go with our vision. This is where we want to be in 3–5 years. What are the influences on our industry that we need to be talking about? What are the things we're trying in terms of new markets to capture? How do we need to be talking about that in the future so that it will resonate with where we're going?" It's much more at the company vision level and response to influencers and drivers in the marketplace. I do not do SEO evaluations and those kinds of things. It's more around, "This is where we want to be in the future." I have a client who says that what they like about working with me is we lift the gaze towards the future in everything that we do so that we don't, in the busy times — which we all know, are frequent — get stuck looking down at the piece of paper to get the work done and then look up later and say we missed. I'm really focused on, "What are the economic impacts that we're going to be seeing? What are the drivers of the market that are changing? Really, what are the things that our clients even need to be thinking about?" [00:11:57] Michelle: Yes. We live in this information age, we're in the heyday, right now, of ChatGPT and all this, how do you help clients tell the difference between good and bad information? How do you help them sort through that? [00:12:11] Sarah: I just love this question. [00:12:13] Sarah: My husband and I actually talked about this question last night as we were talking about our days today. I think that just in terms of me and where I sit, generationally, I couldn't refer to anything on the internet in a research paper in college. [00:12:32] Michelle: Right, I know. Same generation.  [00:12:36] Sarah: That was all very voodoo. LexisNexis is where you went for your information. It was already this canon of information that was, "This is the real deal." The World Book Britannica was the real deal. Today, yes, what is good and bad information? I like to tell people that, yes, there is definitely bad information out there, but really looking at it and saying, "Who is this coming from? What is their point of view?"  For example, people will call me to look at transportation for them. Transportation is, of course, a broad market. One of my favorite resources is ARTBA, but ARTBA, it leans towards things that are impacting labor for truck drivers. I just need to know that when I am referencing it. Really, what the clients want to understand is, for the trucking industry, how EV is going to be impacting construction, durations of rides, all those sorts of things. That's what we care about. Yes, we care about the labor too, because without them there to work, it impacts our industry for sure. Understanding the bias that certain things come with that are good bias, somebody else needs that bias. I don't need that bias. They have a lot of other very helpful and good information. I like to say go to organizations and associations, but every one of them has a point of view. Every one of them has a point of view, something that they're advocating for. Make sure you understand what it is they're advocating for so that when you're reading, and you're researching, you understand the bias that's there. [00:14:23] Michelle: Yes, it's like how I prep clients for media interviews. The journalist has a story they want to tell. Figure out what angle they're coming at, to begin with. We all want every media interview to start with a very— We don't play in the real politicized world of media, but there's still a story they're trying to get. They're still trying to fill a hole in an editorial calendar. You've got to go into it understanding that before you conduct the interview and make sure that you're operating from that. That's a great point. [00:14:58] Sarah: You can have a source that is a good source, but it becomes a bad source for you because you don't understand their point of view. [00:15:08] Michelle: That makes sense. If you're a marketing director at an AEC firm, and you're like, "We've really never conducted research, and I feel like we should," what would be a good start for somebody who's like, "We just need to get more direction to our marketing strategy"? Where would they start to integrate research into that? [00:15:30] Sarah: I believe that a marketing strategy is a response to where you are and where you want to go as a company. When the purpose of research is about the company strategy, the marketing strategy has to help move the needle there. When you want to inform your marketing strategy, you're uncovering where you need to use different messages to differentiate to meet your market and stand out from the flock, as I say. It's a response to that company vision and understanding what that means in terms of where we're trying to go and not just the words and the vision. Is it a growth initiative? Is it going deeper within an existing market? That's what we're trying to do usually with our work, is lay the groundwork for that to be done.  Going back to the purposes, the common purposes is that you guys want to be, from a competitive standpoint, winning at SEO. Then it's content, and so it is understanding what content is needed. Is it that you want, in a specific market, to be more well-known? Strategic promotion may be what you really need to be focusing on. It's almost do a swat to say, "What is it that we need to shore up right now?" That's a good starting place. Really, the marketing strategy is a response to where you are and where the company wants to go. [00:16:59] Michelle: I'm jumping around a little bit here, but I find—because we work exclusively with professional services firms, positioning is a real interesting thing for professional services firms. Like you said, most of the previous generation, their positioning was their geography. It was where they were based. They're a South Carolina firm and that was it. There was no other thought around positioning beyond geography. Are you finding that more firms are really starting to think more strategically and globally around their positioning? [00:17:34] Sarah: Yes, I think that the firms who have expanded their footprints beyond, let's call it, four or five geographies, have to find their voice and their point of view. Whether they plan to expand beyond where they are right now at all, they have to have a point of view. You look at large architecture firms and engineering firms that have been around for a long time, and you call XYZ Engineering Firm when you are going to do something really complicated. That's their brand. They haven't had to open additional offices in places because their expertise is sought after. Their point of view as well is sought after. As well as certain architecture firms, they've got specific expertise in certain areas. That's one model is the whole, "I've got a point of view, people will want me to come.” And then others that just want to expand geographically across the United States for various reasons. It could be driven by their clients and their clients being in those places. It could be because they're wanting to be more differentiated for resilience. [00:18:49] Michelle: That makes sense. That's great. Tell me, what do you wish firms knew before engaging a market research firm? [00:18:57] Sarah: That is such a great question and a little bit of a complicated question because this is such a new thing for so many firms. I think what I wish they knew is when they're hiring a firm, it is for you. This is not a report you're buying off of a shelf. This is for you. That's where I spend a lot of time helping them to refine what the purpose is and how they're going to use it. A great example of that is if this is something that is part of a strategic plan initiative where they're going in, and they're saying, "We want to understand what's going on nationally in the market when we're doing our strategic planning to determine some potential growth areas for ourselves,” that's one purpose. Or during the strategic—because people always ask me, do we do it before or do we do it after? Both, it doesn't matter. You can decide you want to grow, you want to differentiate and then do the research to decide which direction. [00:20:03] Michelle: Right, yes. [00:20:04] Sarah: Or you can do it at the front end either way. If it's for that, they're not necessarily looking for in every single market, all of the competition by volume, by this, by that. They're trying to understand what's the opportunity, what's the scale of that opportunity and how crowded is it? Those are some of the questions that we're going to want to answer. Then we stop because they're using it to make a determination of do we want to go further.  You decide you want to go further, you want to investigate — and this is an example, for one of my clients — want to investigate K-12 in this state because you want to grow further in the state. Guess what? One of the deliverables is a spreadsheet of all of the past bond elections, all of the firms that did the work from those bond elections, their voting history, all the things you need to make a decision of, is this a good one for us to go look at? Is this a large district that tends to break up projects into $10 million projects instead of a district that either awards at all to one firm and has awarded it to the same firm for the last four bond cycles? These are the kinds of things. It's both a understanding the health of the market, where population growth is forecasted, all those kinds of things but there's a spreadsheet so that their BD teams, their seller-doer teams can go in and say, "If I'm looking at this district, what's the story?" How are you going to use it? is a really important question. Especially in the engineering world, because they're engineers, they want to get down to all of that nitty gritty. I say, we can do that, but I don't know that you're going to use it to make the decisions you need to make based on the purpose you told me. [00:21:59] Michelle: Right, just helping them come back and remind themselves of what they're doing. [00:22:03] Sarah: Exactly. Purpose and how you're going to use it. [00:22:05] Michelle: Yes. I always like to ask this, if, let's say, somebody didn't have time to listen to this conversation, what's the most important lesson you hope someone would come away from about market research in the AEC industry? [00:22:19] Sarah: I tell people that information is your compass. That's what market research gives you is information to make decisions. My definition of market research is an answer to a question that informs action with a defendable why. If I break that down, market research is asking a bunch of questions and going to find the answers, which then helps you determine, "Are we going to go do that or not do that?" Because you have done that based in information, you have a defendable why over and over again. To me, information is your compass. Market research can give you the information that you need and it doesn't have to be hard either. [00:23:02] Michelle: Yes. Thank you so much.  We've been talking to Sarah Kinard of The Flamingo Project. If somebody wants to learn more, maybe has a market research project they've been pondering, what's the best way for them to connect with you? [00:23:15] Sarah: theflamingoproject.com is my website. I have a number of articles and worksheets and things like that on my site for market research to help get you going, to get your brain oriented into market research. I am always up for a conversation of how to break it down, make it easier and simplify it so that you guys can get started. [00:23:40] Michelle: Wonderful. Thank you so much. [music] [00:23:42] Sarah: Thank you. [music] [00:23:44] Thanks for listening to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.

Virtual meetings and remote work are the new norm of the professional landscape — yes, even for law firms. As the industry evolves, so should our communication skills.  Michelle invites Marsha Redmon, a legal communications and business development consultant, to share advice on how legal professionals can improve their engagement when presenting and pitching to remote and hybrid audiences.  They discuss best practices for communicating in different scenarios, common mistakes lawyers make, how to project confidence and credibility, and more. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Marsha Redmon and what is Marsha Redmon Communications The challenges lawyers face with virtual communication How to engage audiences in remote and hybrid settings Common mistakes attorneys make when setting up their video Advice for setting up your remote video to enhance credibility What technology and equipment are worth investing in How to train and mentor employees remotely Best practices for holding difficult conversations virtually Best practices for presenting to C-suite executives Projecting confidence and authority as a woman About our featured guest Elite law firms and lawyers have gone to Marsha Redmon for 20+ years to learn how to have a more powerful presence when they speak. During COVID, she became the go-to expert teaching professionals worldwide how to fix their virtual presence so they can speak with confidence and engage powerfully — to win clients, have impact and own their niche. Marsha is a former practicing attorney and award-winning TV journalist. The through-line in her varied career is, “There must be a better, faster way to do this.” Her workshops teach lawyers and executives the speaking skills and a fast messaging process they need for effective thought leadership in every scenario: speeches, panels, pitches, media interviews, client summits. Marsha practiced law at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher and was an award-winning consumer and investigative television reporter in major markets. She also taught business communications to MBA students at the University of Maryland. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Marsha Redmon Communications Follow Marsha Redmon Communications on LinkedIn and Twitter Connect with Marsha Redmon on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Download Marsha’s “5 Steps to Being a Powerful Virtual Presenter” checklist Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Marsha Redmon: Lawyers often aren't aware of their audience, and so they tend to talk over the heads of people when they're in person, and virtually, it's a lot easier to lose your audience. If you're not concise, if you're not focused, if you don't have energy, if you're not making eye contact, all of those things make it much easier for you to lose the attention and really lose the ability to connect virtually. [music] [00:00:27]: Welcome to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering, and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. [music] [00:00:44] Michelle Calcote King: Hi, everyone. I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host, and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink, that's ink with a K, .com.  Today, we're going to talk about all things remote work and virtual meetings. These are the norm in the post-COVID world. Although there've been some bumps along the way from learning how to unmute and mastering screen sharing, overall, it's allowed us to connect better regardless of our physical proximity. In this new world, it's really vital for lawyers and their firms to be able to connect with clients and their peers in a virtual setting. Doing so effectively requires a different set of skills compared to in-person communication, which is why this topic is so relevant today. We've got the expert in the legal industry on this topic to discuss this.  We're talking to Marsha Redmon. She's going to discuss best practices for navigating virtual communication in the legal industry. For 20 years, she's helped lawyers and other professionals improve their presentation skills. She's a former practicing attorney and also an award-winning television journalist. She's uniquely positioned to talk about this. Welcome to the show. [00:01:56] Marsha: Thanks so much. I'm excited to be here. I'm actually joining you from spring break in Fort Lauderdale. [00:02:01] Michelle: Love it. [00:02:01] Marsha: This is not my usual setup, but it'll do. [00:02:05] Michelle: Actually, I'm going to get into that later because I want to talk about, what are those things you've got to do when you're not in your usual setup. That lends perfectly to that.  Let's talk in general, let's set the stage. The whole world has had to really learn pretty fast how to operate in this remote world and communicate over Zoom and Teams, but what about lawyers in particular? Are there some unique challenges that you think lawyers have faced? [00:02:28] Marsha: I think so. The main reason is that lawyers often aren't aware of their audience, and so they tend to talk over the heads of people when they're in person, and virtually, it's a lot easier to lose your audience. If you're not concise, if you're not focused, if you don't have energy, if you're not making eye contact, all of those things make it much easier for you to lose the attention and really lose the ability to connect virtually. [00:02:56] Michelle: Do you see generational differences too? I was just having a conversation yesterday, especially in the law where older attorneys don't retire along the normal timeline that a lot of other industries do. Are you seeing real generational differences with this? [00:03:12] Marsha: I think so. For some folks, the technology itself is challenging. The need to really remake how you communicate. I think folks at either end of the generations may not believe that this is our world and that it's worth it and absolutely required to learn how to connect and communicate effectively as a lawyer over a camera. Whether it's virtual or hybrid, we have to learn these skills. I think there's a lot of resistance. A lot of folks still haven't realized that in the most important communication situations like pitching and CLEs for your clients, this is never going to go away because it's just too convenient. [00:03:53] Michelle: Yes, it really is. It's too convenient. It's going to morph, and we're going to see changes, but this kind of communication is going to continue. Absolutely.  Tell me about the workshops that you put on. What are some of the different things you're teaching in those workshops? [00:04:09] Marsha: Sure. As you mentioned, I've had this business coming up on 24 years next month. I started out doing media training, so, teaching lawyers how to talk to the press, whether it's broadcast or print. Very quickly, I expanded it to include all communication skills that impact lawyers, so, all the ranging from presentation skills to pitching, to how to talk about your practice. Both the core communication skills as well as thought leadership-specific communication skills. Of course, as you mentioned, once the pandemic started, it was 100% about virtual communication. Now that the pandemic is over, I am spending a lot of time teaching hybrid communication, so, talking about how to connect when you have people in the room, as well as people who are virtual. [00:04:58] Michelle: Oh, fascinating. [00:04:59] Marsha: Yes. The sad thing is that hybrid is harder than virtual. [00:05:05] Michelle: Oh, yes. [00:05:09] Marsha: Because we're dealing with two audiences at once. If you're the speaker and you happen to be in a room with people, we tend to forget about the people who are joining virtually, and so it's offensive and we miss out on some large portion of our audience. [00:05:26] Michelle: Interesting. I just heard about a thing called an Owl. Have you heard of this? That you could put into a room, and it follows whoever the speaker is. I haven't bought one yet. I've just looked at it, but it'll follow the speaker for that particular reason, that people who are hybrid, who are remote, but everyone else is in-person, are really left behind in those conversations. [00:05:51] Marsha: It's challenging. It's challenging at law firms. A lot of law firms use different platforms, and so it's hard, or they change platforms. I do a lot of work at a very large government agency that has a lot of lawyers and accountants, and they have traditionally used the one we all hate. That one. [00:06:10] Michelle: Teams. [00:06:10] Marsha: Now they've added a second one, so all of those people are now having to master both. [00:06:19] Michelle: We become creatures of habits with our tech platforms. Once we're comfortable with one, it's hard to switch over to another. That's fascinating. I'd like to hear more about that hybrid training. What are some other things you are training your clients to do in those hybrid situations? [00:06:36] Marsha: The challenges with hybrid, the first one is tech, so, figuring out. It sounds like this Owl thing is probably a voice-activated camera, and so, understanding, in all the conference rooms that you might work in, how do things work? Voice-activated cameras can be a problem if you have a main speaker, but other people have ice, or they're opening a chip bag or something else. You can have the camera turn away from the main speaker. Sometimes the microphones are voice-activated, so you may get a lot of background noise that's very distracting to the remote audience in particular. That's the first thing, attack.  The second thing is making sure that you have procedures in place to do everything possible so that the remote audience is brought into the room and is given all respect, and that you're showing a true commitment to making sure their voices are heard. My best piece of advice around that is to have a person in the in-person room whose job it is to be the voice of the remote attendees so that they're monitoring the chat. They're getting questions, and they're literally speaking up and saying, "We have two questions from the Chicago office. First question is this, second question is that," so that we have that handled. Another thing I would recommend, if you have a panel or several speakers, make sure some of the speakers are remote because that brings a kind of parody so that we're showing the people in-person aren't the important people, but we're spreading the attention. [00:08:06] Michelle: Interesting. Let's talk about, you're in your office, you're doing a Zoom or a Teams meeting. What are some basics that you see a lot of lawyers get wrong? [00:08:17] Marsha: Now that we're back in our office, we're starting all over. Most of us by now have figured out, how can I show up well as a talking head. Talking head video means this. I have a little bit of headroom. I'm in the middle. You can read my expression. I come across as a professional. Most of us have figured that out at home. Now that we're back in the office, almost without exception, everyone is backlit. Whatever blinds they have behind them, typically, they're facing the door and the windows behind them, and so their audience can't read their expression because there's so much light behind them. We all need to spin away from the light or get a better blind, or drape, or something because the bottom line is we judge each other over the camera the same way that we would if we were in-person, and so our audience needs to be able to read our expression. For me, I'm a little dark today because I'm doing this from a hotel room and the beach is out there. There's a lot of sun coming in on the side. Ideally, I would look more like you. I would have nice light on my face, I would have color in my face, but we need to work all that out in the office because we don't have credibility with our audience if they can't read our expression, if they can't see our eyes. We've got to work these things out.  On the flip side, if we do it well, then the audience, even if we're communicating one to 100, every person on the other end feels like we're having a one-on-one conversation because we're showing up like a talking head, which also brings with it a lot of perception of expertise, a perception of knowledge because we've spent all of our lives seeing experts and heads of state looking like this, right? [00:10:05] Michelle: Right. [00:10:06] Marsha: Talking head video. We can borrow that credibility if we go ahead and work out the lighting, the framing, those things. [00:10:15] Michelle: Interesting. Lighting, how you position your face in front of the camera. What about backgrounds? What are your suggestions there? [00:10:23] Marsha: My goal with the background is to have it be not distracting. [00:10:27] Michelle: Mine is probably a little distracting. [00:10:30] Marsha: The good thing is you have fun stuff in the back, which is just showing expertise because I'm sure those framed things are awards and things like that. [00:10:37] Michelle: Right, yes. [00:10:38] Marsha: I can tell that from a distance, and lawyers resonate with that. The good news is you have a lot of distance between your back and the things behind you. They don't distract me. I don't have the urge to lean in and try to read what they say because you have enough distance. [00:10:55] Michelle: Okay, interesting. [00:10:55] Marsha: Yes. The goal is to not be distracting. Here we have a couple of things. Nothing really worth watching, but a little bit of color, which is helpful. If you have a lot of stuff going on behind you, you just want to try to get some distance. If you happen to be on Zoom, you can always do Blur My Background, and that's very effective. I personally do not like virtual backgrounds. [00:11:17] Michelle: I was going to ask, that was my next question. [00:11:19] Marsha: They tend not to work that well. As the lawyer leans slightly here and there, some big headrest on their chair suddenly looms over them or their ear disappears. If you have hair, I saw a woman once do a pitch with a bun on the top of her head, and as she slightly moved forward and back, the bun would disappear and reappear. It was super distracting and not at all professional. [00:11:45] Michelle: If they have some worries about what's in background, you would recommend just doing the blur versus choosing a background. Okay. [00:11:52] Marsha: Yes, unless they've tested it, and it works really well. The thing about the virtual backgrounds is you really need to light your wall. Who has time for that? It's better to just blur. [00:12:04] Michelle: Interesting. What about technology? Obviously, I podcast, so I've got my fancy microphone, I've got a really nice camera. Are there some basics that you recommend everyone have right now, or are there things we can do without having to get a whole new setup? [00:12:23] Marsha: I think it's good to have a decent camera. The camera can really make a difference. That's why I'm so white today. This is the camera that I just keep in my bag all the time. The camera can really make a difference. If you're in a situation in your office or your home, wherever you do a lot of getting on Zoom or some other platform, it's good to handle background noise. If you know there can be a lot of noise if you're in a big city and you hear a lot of ambulances and things that are loud, I would suggest using a noise-canceling headset. One that covers both of your ears and have the noise canceling microphone because that will keep your audience from being distracted by the noise in your environment, and for you as a speaker, as a communicator, having both of your ears covered means you don't get distracted by the noise in your environment. [00:13:14] Michelle: It's amazing, I think, how well noise-canceling microphones perform. I work from a home office, and I have two dogs. I have been recording before and just heard mayhem going on, barking happening outside my door. I've learned that, really, it doesn't translate over the microphone. I used to stop recording and go back and listen, and they actually do a really effective job. Once you learn that, you calm down a little bit more about outside noises and that kind of thing. [00:13:46] Marsha: Yes, absolutely. For the last three years during the pandemic, I did all of my workshops virtually until the last six months. The yard guys would come, and they'd be six feet outside my window, and I'd be doing a workshop for 150 people. No one heard a thing, and I kept talking, which is important.  [00:14:07] Michelle: I had that happen. I was doing a speech to an industry group of, it was probably 100 people on it, and I was actually at my sister's house in South Florida. Her yard crew came, and right outside the window. As soon as I started talking, and I didn't have my noise-canceling microphone, I'm sure you can relate, it was panic-inducing. [00:14:31] Marsha: Oh, yes. Plus you completely forget what you were saying. [00:14:36] Michelle: Yes, you just blank. What about eye contact? I saw you wrote about some of that on your website. How do you make eye contact in a virtual setting? [00:14:46] Marsha: That's the most important thing because if you're looking down here at your notes, or you're looking down here at the video of the people you're talking to, it seems as though you can't meet the eye of your audience or you don't respect them, or you just don't know what you're doing. The bottom line is you have to look at the camera. I like to do a couple of things to help you cheat and make it easier. What I do is I'll take the Zoom window or the Teams window, and I'll squeeze it up so it's smaller. I'll push it right under the webcam, and I'll get about, as you can see, I'm a little more than an arm's length away from the camera, and so I can look at that video box right under the webcam, and it still looks like I'm looking at the camera. [00:15:27] Michelle: Ah, smart. Interesting. [00:15:29] Marsha: Yes, that makes a huge difference. The second thing is, for a lot of us, we have slides, we have bullets. I recommend that you squeeze that up and put that right under the webcam as well. Don't let those slides go full screen. You want to squeeze them up and put them under the webcam. [00:15:44] Michelle: Got it. The other thing I noticed when I first started doing these podcasts and doing them on video, actually, my producer of the podcast said, "You've got to lower your camera." I was doing the classic, it was up here, and I had never thought to bring it down here. She sent me the exact how. Once we did that, I thought, "Oh my gosh, that made such a difference." I would've never thought of it. [00:16:13] Marsha: Yes, it's easier. Truth be told, the ideal position for your camera is right at eye level. [00:16:20] Michelle: Right, at eye level. [00:16:20] Marsha: From today, my camera should be right here. [00:16:24] Michelle: Got you. [00:16:25] Marsha: There are no books in this hotel room, so I couldn't get it up. To your point, it's easier to make eye contact when the camera is level than when it is too high or too low. As you showed a moment ago, when it's too high, it makes you look really small so you don't seem professional. You don't seem like a full adult because the camera is looking down on you, which now that many of us are back in the office and on Zoom in the law firm offices, that's the new problem. It used to be the camera was shooting up our nose, now it's too high because they've got webcams on top of giant monitors. [00:17:02] Michelle: Right, yes. [00:17:03] Marsha: They've got to find a way to lower the desk or put the camera maybe on a tripod in front of the screen. Some solution. [00:17:14] Michelle: Definitely. I had a client once that I felt like all I ever saw was the top of her head for that exact reason. It was a giant monitor and she had a camera stuck up there, and she couldn't change it. It's all these new things that we're having to figure out here. The other thing I thought was really fascinating on your website was talk about… What I hear from our law firm clients is the real reticence of firms with remote work or even hybrid work is training and mentoring young attorneys. I have a fully remote team. We've been remote since 2018. We had office space for many years, and then I took it remote in 2018. I've always mentored in a remote fashion. What are tips that you give your clients about how to do that, how to accomplish that? [00:17:59] Marsha: The thing I'm hearing from all the law firms I work with is that small breakout rooms are a really effective way to let people connect and talk and engage, and feel like they know each other. Even now that a lot of lawyers are back in the office, they're not back in the office every day. Some firms still have people that are 100% remote for whatever reason. To have those times with teams of people so that we connect and we talk about things, whether we're talking about work or we're talking about life and ourselves to connect, to do it in small groups. Two people, three people up to four people. Just to get that connection. Then if it's possible, to get together in person relatively often when everybody is there as much as possible. One of the government agencies I was talking about, they have a community day now. I think it's only once a quarter, but everybody has to come on the same exact day because otherwise, they're letting people choose which days to come in. [00:18:57] Michelle: That's great. I saw somewhere where you were teaching them how to make little videos, screen recordings. I thought that was so important, because myself as a boss, as you're working through the day, you think, "Ooh, I'd love for my entire team to know this." What I hear from lawyers is, "Oh, well we're missing that, just drop in the office or that hallway conversation." When they say that to me, I think, "Yes, but that can still be accomplished through technology." Are there ways that you help them do that? [00:19:26] Marsha: Yes, there are a number of screen recording options. I'd be happy to send you some links and stuff if you want to put it in the show. [00:19:31] Michelle: Let's put it on there, yes. [00:19:34] Marsha: That just make it really easy. That you can log in, and you can use it to connect. You can also use it to say stuff. You record it once, and then people can watch it when it's relevant to them or useful for them. Sometimes with time zones and stuff, it's hard to get everybody together all at once. With the benefit of screen sharing is they can see your face in a little bubble, but then you can show them stuff on the computer. You can walk through and say, "Hey, looking at this document," or, "Looking at this new piece of tech we want you to use," or, "Let me walk you through some changes to the website," or whatever it happens to be. You can make a little screen share video and they can see things as well as you. [00:20:12] Michelle: It is very very helpful. Lawyers, they deal in the world of contentious topics, what about difficult conversations over Zoom or Teams? [00:20:25] Marsha: I actually teach a workshop called “Difficult Conversations,” which, of course, is about messaging, really. It's about actually having the difficult conversation. The thing I know is that it's easiest to connect and read each other if the camera is on so that we can see each other and we can hear each other. A lot of our judgment of tone and emotion comes from the voice, but it also helps to see people. It varies from person to person, but certainly, if you're delivering bad news, we always used to say if you're delivering bad news or having a hard conversation, you want to do it in person. If you can't do it in person, I say do it over Zoom or Teams or Webex, whatever you have, so that you can see each other. [00:21:07] Michelle: Yes, that's super important. What about busy executives? Is there anything different about, say, lawyers are presenting to the C-suite? Is there anything unique about when communicating with that audience virtually? [00:21:22] Marsha: Yes. I call it the short attention span audience, or as I used to say about lawyers, some of them have the attention span of a gnat. Just because you're that person, too, doesn't mean you know how to present to those people yourself, as with lawyers many times. The main things are, get to the point right away. My focus on that is to flip the order of your communication. Most of us were taught the scientific method, proof, proof, proof, conclusion. I always recommended, conclusion— [00:21:50] Michelle: Conclusion first. Right, yes. [00:21:52] Marsha: My point, here are the two steps you'll need to take, here's the benefit to you if you decide to do as I recommend. [00:21:57] Michelle: That's your journalism training right there, yes. [00:21:58] Marsha: Absolutely, yes. [00:21:59] Michelle: An inverted pyramid. [00:22:01] Marsha: Yes, super structured. In fact, really everything I teach around communications, most of it comes from journalism. In addition to my five years at Big Law, it's all about, how do you structure a message, how do you get the attention of an audience, how do you keep the attention. It's all the stuff you and I learned in journalism. [00:22:20] Michelle: 100%. I love to hire former journalists because they come ready-made with all of these skills that are often difficult to teach. It translates so well. Honestly, obviously, as a PR firm, it translates for that. I think just in general nowadays, having good communication skills gets you so far in business. This is just another step forward in learning how to do that.  Tell me about women and female attorneys. What's unique about how we as women communicate? What are some things we specifically need to think about? [00:22:56] Marsha: I think it's beneficial for women to get together with women and to talk about the communication issues and how to project confidence and authority. There are some slightly different issues for women, and I just find we're more comfortable talking about these things together, not having any men in the room. This is a very popular workshop I do, powerful presence for women. It's specific to women, and I mention women-specific communication issues only there. I never do it in front of men because it's just better for all of us. The specific things are pitch, knowing if you have an issue with pitch. If your voice is too high, how to use the lower natural range of your pitch. High-pitch voices don't carry as much authority as we want. There are specific ways to deal with that. If you have the issue, you probably know it. For me, the most important thing around confidence and authority for women these days is to become concise. Most lawyers talk too much. All of the research tells us men talk more than women do, but the perception is that women talk more. The upside for women is when we become concise, when we say less, when we have a real structure to our message, it's very noticeable, and we get extra benefit from it. My number one thing I always teach to women are my messaging structures and the templates that I use so that they get right to the point. Their sentences are shorter, their communication is direct, and that bumps up the perception of authority and expertise. It keeps attention, which is hard to do now for all of us. Then other elements, of course, are around things we do with our voice. Not using phrases that take away our power, not saying a lot of likes and ums. The most important thing, and men and women do this equally, is saying things like kind of and sort of. It's deadly. We have to get rid of that because we're basically saying, "Don't believe me. I don't really mean it." [00:24:58] Michelle: It's the worst whenever you listen to a recording of yourself, and realize you've got an issue with some of that. My issue is saying the words, "You know." When I'll listen to a recording, just cringe every time I hear it. It is very difficult to work it out of your communication style. [00:25:17] Marsha: Yes. I say, again. "Again, blah, blah, blah." I'm like, "Oh." [00:25:23] Michelle: Yes, that's so difficult. This is all fascinating. It's very relevant for nearly everyone working today. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this, especially while you're on vacation. We've been talking to Marsha Redmon of Marsha Redmon Communications. If people want to learn more, where should they go? [00:25:39] Marsha: Sure. It's really easy. It's my name, Marsha, marsha.com is my website. If you happen to be interested in a nice little checklist, you can go to presencetips.com. [00:25:52] Michelle: Great, awesome. [00:25:53] Marsha: It'll be in the show notes. [00:25:54] Michelle: Yes, fantastic. All right, thank you so much. [00:25:57] Marsha: It's my pleasure. Thank you. [00:26:00] Michelle: Thanks for listening to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time. Be sure to click “Subscribe” to get future episodes. [music]  

What does your brand say about your architecture, engineering or construction firm? Does it accurately reflect who you are today or is it still rooted in your early days of establishment? How a potential client perceives your AEC firm holds significant sway over their decision-making process. If your brand seems outdated or inconsistent, it could be the decisive factor that sends new business into a competitor’s arms. Michelle invites Mark Wierda, co-founder and president of Cultivate Brands, to talk through everything AEC firms need to know about building a strong brand that resonates with prospective clients. They discuss why brands evolve, how to execute a rebranding campaign, common mistakes made by AEC firms, and how branding impacts PR and marketing strategies. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Mark Wierda and what is Cultivate Brands What is a brand and what it means to have a strong brand How brands evolve over time How to execute a rebranding campaign Advice for building a brand that resonates with prospective clients and employees Common mistakes AEC companies make with their branding  How branding impacts the effectiveness of your public relations strategy About our featured guest Mark co-founded Cultivate in 2005 and serves as the agency’s president. With a background in photography, marketing and technology, he is often found on video and photoshoots and in the trenches with the web and apps teams. He’s proud to have a team with a knack for building strong brands — and bringing those brand stories to life to help clients overcome challenges and move the needle. Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Cultivate Brands Follow Cultivate on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Mark Wierda on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today. Transcript [00:00:00] Mark Wierda: I've seen construction companies will tend to throw a lot of energy at going through a rebrand process, but then have this tendency of saying, "We're done here. We don't have to do it anymore. We did that," and then kind of move on. So it's always trying to encourage that group to stick with it because it's not a one-and-done process. [music] [00:00:21]: Welcome to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now, let's get started with the show. Hey, everyone. Welcome to “Spill The Ink.” I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your podcast host, and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for architecture, engineering and construction firms, and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.  Today we're talking about branding in the AEC industry, and it's not a term a lot of architecture, engineering and construction companies have a lot of familiarity with, but it can be quite complex and impactful. It balances lots of visuals, the needs to speak to diverse client base and you've got to effectively communicate your team's technical knowledge and expertise. What do construction firms need to know to build a brand that resonates with prospective clients and employees? We're going to tackle that in today's episode. As part of that, we have welcomed a guest that I've had the pleasure of working closely with on a large construction company rebrand, Mark Wierda. He's joining us today. He is the co-founder and president of Cultivate Brands They are a brand agency, like I said, that my agency partnered with on a rebrand. We worked together to launch a new brand for an 85-year-old construction company. Throughout the process, I was really impressed by Mark and his team's brand strategy and creative work so I'm excited to pick his brain today. Welcome to the show. [00:02:03] Mark: Thanks so much, Michelle. It's a pleasure to be here with you. [00:02:06] Michelle: Yes, I'm excited to talk about this because you and I have been deep into a rebrand for quite a while here. One, if you don't mind, I made a short intro about Cultivate, but tell us a little bit about Cultivate, and I know you're one of the founders. Give me a little overview of what you guys do at Cultivate. [00:02:24] Mark: We have a relatively small team, about 15 folks on our staff. We're based here in the Chicago area and the southwest Montana area in the Bozeman community. We got our start, my gosh, back in 2005 really as a bunch of creatives, creative shop taking whatever projects we could find. I think for us the big epiphany or whatever was realizing that even though we’d feel good about maybe the projects that we'd be doing, the creative we'd be making, our clients would feel good about it. It came to a point where we realized if the foundation wasn't good, if we didn't have the right information, if we didn't really know that core idea or why we were making what we were making, it really impacted the effectiveness of any of the work that we were doing. That, I think, required a lot of soul searching for our team, a lot of thinking about what do we need to do to put our team and our clients in a better spot? Because when we're doing any of this creative communications work, any of that, and really settled in on this idea of brand and branding. [00:03:37] Michelle: Yes, and it's so important today, especially in the online world, I think, to have a really distinctive brand. Let's talk about construction companies. What would you say is unique in that industry when it comes to branding and developing a strong brand? [00:03:55] Mark: I’d love your perspective on this, too. I think, not to oversimplify it, but a lot of times we've seen that for a lot of construction companies, they've just never really considered it. They've never really had to. A lot of times these companies have been around for generations, and it's always been built on a handshake and relationships. For them, branding, it starts and stops on the sign, the logo, or whatever that's on the door. Now there's all these new pressures in terms of labor shortages and material, and there's technological advancements. Now the way that they've maybe done business for decades is not going to work as effectively as they have. I know that's not everybody. I don't know, what's been your experience so far? [00:04:43] Michelle: Yes, I agree. I think it's a couple of things. I think it's one, we see this in every area of professional services that we work in that it's really transformed from a— it's still a relationship business, but the way relationships are formed has gone from just an offline thing to an online thing.  I think in an online world, brands are more important. We have so much information thrown at us, so having a clear, distinctive idea of who this company is, what it stands for, what it's about helps people process and understand, okay, rather than it being Joe, the guy I see at the Rotary Club once a month, and I have this good relationship with him. It's more about who is this company? Especially, like you said, with attracting employees and keeping the right people. The brand. What does this company stand for? What kind of career is this going to be for me? Those things become important and branding becomes really important. One of the things I liked about the work that your team did when working with this one particular client — quite an old client — showing how brands have evolved over the years. If you don't mind, talk a little bit about that in terms of— What I thought was interesting was helping them understand that, when we're talking just purely a logo, the trends are more towards simplification of a logo, pairing down a little bit of the design.  Tell me how brands have evolved over years. [00:06:25] Mark: Maybe to answer that, if I could maybe take one step before that in terms of what we mean by branding and what a brand is. Then I'll answer the second part. I think when we talk about what is a brand, we kind of say, and you hear this, your brand is what others say about you. It's that feeling someone has in their gut. When they see your name, when they hear your name, it's that perception that folks have. That perception becomes, I guess you'd say it becomes reality when folks are making decisions based on that. If they're going to choose to work with you, if they're going to choose to get on board with what you want. I guess we would say, you have a strong brand when it's aligned because that perception is shaped by what you say, by what you do; it's shaped by all these types of things. We would say, you have a strong brand when that's all aligned. When what you say and what you believe and what you stand for and how you treat others, treat your audiences, your clients, your employees consistently, because then you start to create— When you consider what your audiences care about and can align with that, that's where that strong brand happens. But your question was, how does it evolve? I think a lot of times the branding evolves because, in the case of the client we've been working on together, in some ways their business had evolved where their branding, their visual identity that they had had was rooted in a type of work that they really did 10, 20 years past. Now even that had shifted. That kind of pigeonholed them into a way of working that wasn't representative of who they are now. I think I see that a lot of times where, yes, to your point, there is a move to just go simpler and stylistically, all of that. A lot of times it's driven out of if there's a misalignment in what they're saying, what they're putting out there, that's a real good reason to shift it to create that alignment. [00:08:40] Michelle: Yes. If there's a construction company out there that's thinking, "Yes, our brand's a little dated. We probably need to go through a rebrand.” Can you talk us through what that process looks like? How does your firm approach branding projects? [00:08:55] Mark: Oh man, you’re throwing all the questions. [00:08:58] Michelle: What could they be facing? [00:09:00] Mark: I'd love to hear your take on that one too. Sorry. Can you reframe that question again? [00:09:07] Michelle: When we first start working with them, your team did a really great job of holding a workshop where you asked some really important questions and dug around, did that fact-finding process. Maybe if we talk about, what are some of the things that y'all are asking in that process? We all came together and we did that workshop. What would be some of the things that you guys look to draw out? [00:09:39] Mark: First and foremost, I think it'll be that recognition from the construction company that it's needed. You need willing and open participants. [00:09:50] Michelle: Coalition of the willing is my joke. [00:09:52] Mark: Yes, there you go. I'm going to use that. [00:09:58] Michelle: Yes, exactly. [00:10:00] Mark: Absolutely. That has to be the starting point. Then I think it's going through an exercise to understand where the brand is now, and what's its desired future state. And understanding what's the gap between that and then working towards building that bridge between the two. I would say, yes, we worked through this workshop process that had a research component, had a lot of just fact-finding, getting as much information from the client. Really it's about fostering those conversations within the company to get to a point where they really understand their true identity. What is it that they stand for? What's important to them? All of that. We often say we don't see it as our job here to tell them who they are. We feel like we've done our best work when we can take what they say, come back, hold up a mirror, and they feel like that's it. That's who we are. That's what we're all about. First, it's going through that process of understanding their identity, which the practical aspects of that might be developing a vision statement, listing out those core values. You were very active with those guys in doing all of that work. Understanding core values. What's a mission? What's the vision? Maybe positioning ideas like where are they going to plant their flag relative to others? Those would be the foundational pieces. The second part, or the counterpart, is then doing the same for their audience. Who are they trying to reach? Identifying them, naming them, understanding what they care about. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter much who you are if you can't do that in consideration of your audience. Those two pieces come first. Then it's about trying to figure out how do we create those connections between those ideas that will connect those two together? Maybe we think about this idea of really humanizing the brand. How do you bring your brand to life by giving it a personality? That's where a lot of the design work or logo design work or creative work comes in terms of just some extra tools to really get those ideas out there. You can do that and you can maybe draw attention, but we'd always advise for these construction companies, they have to then deliver on what you say. Deliver the value, do it consistently, behave as you aspire to be. Then if you've done all those things, that's where you can watch that gap start to close. I don't know that answer— [00:12:45] Michelle: Absolutely. I thought one of the interesting things we did was after all the fact-finding, we came away and said, “Okay, there's two directions we can go here.” We had that one that was more rooted in history and a little bit more traditional. Then there was one that was a bit more modern and forward-thinking. I thought it was an interesting opportunity for them to go, “Both of these are true about us, but where do we see this company going forward, too?” This particular client chose the more modern, forward-thinking brand because they're thinking about the next generation of employees who are younger. There's a real generational shift happening in most industries and definitely so in construction. I thought that was a useful exercise, especially because the people often making the decisions are the older generation too. This company is unique in that it's got a younger CEO. But looking at, how do we position our brand and show who we are, but thinking of that next generation of employees and clients? That leads me to my next question about, you and I know working in this construction field, working with construction clients, the key issue right now is the labor shortage. Getting the projects isn't the concern, more so getting the right people and getting the people.  How does the brand impact their ability to attract the right people? [00:14:16] Mark: That's a great question. I think there's a few ways. On one hand, there's an awareness component. If the brand is out there, people see it, know it. Already there you're starting to draw attention to the potential labor market, if you will. I think I would say the other piece is having a strong brand can really help pave the way so that folks already know what you stand for. What's your reputation? There's already a sense of, is this a place that I could see myself? Is it exciting? Is it interesting? Is there going to be opportunity for me to progress in my career? Things like that. I think for anyone, especially if there's a labor shortage, like a struggle to find folks, you have to give them more reason to choose you over somebody else. A strong brand, which really just is a way to say you've got a well-aligned organization who knows what they stand for and knows where they're going, that's where that can really help. One thing I've noticed is construction companies are great at tackling a project. It's in their blood. They'll put resources on it. They'll figure it out. Once they make a decision, they just go. There's not a lot of second-guessing usually. I wanted to know if you found this with more of the engineering and architecture side, but 've seen construction companies will tend to throw a lot of energy at going through a rebrand process, but then have this tendency of saying, "We're done here. We don't have to do it anymore. We did that," and then kind of move on. So it's always trying to encourage that group to stick with it because it's not a one-and-done process. [00:15:55] Michelle: 100%. I think that comes from the age of before the internet, is my guess, because we see that, too. In the past you would hire an agency, have them go away, create your stuff. You'd have your collateral. You had your brochure, that sits on the— In the age of the internet we expect new content. If we don't see new content, their latest project, we don't see their thoughts on the latest issues, then we assume they're stagnant or they're not a growing dynamic company just because our information demands are different nowadays because we're accustomed to this constant feed of information. A company that's not regularly telling its story, we assume something by that. I think today's leaders grew up in the pre-internet days where, “Wait, I did that already. I've got my brochure. I've got my logo, my business cards. I'm done.” That need to constantly tell the story is a new thing, really. That's my guess as to why that happens. We see it not just in construction and other industries. [00:17:16] Mark: Do you? [00:17:17] Michelle: Because it's a “Wait. That's not my job.” But it is your job now.  I wrote this blog post a while back about it's not a one-and-done anymore. Unfortunately, to have a good strong brand and reputation, it's an ongoing, regular process. You got to tell your company's story because of how people expect to be fed information nowadays. It's interesting that you saw it from your side of things. [00:17:42] Mark: What's been your experience with how a company's brand contributes to the effectiveness of any of the ongoing PR work and things like that? [00:17:51] Michelle: It's pretty important. If we have a client, because we're definitely more focused on PR and my agency, we do a full range of services, but PRs are our number one, I always say to them, "Look, we have no problem getting attention to your company. That's what we do." I always tell them to sort that side of the house first because what we're going to do is if we get attention to your company, people are going to come to your website and your social media feeds. They're going to request information. If it doesn't align with what you're putting out there, you've missed a huge opportunity. It's really important to get things like your brand and your website and those things first before we start creating that engine of attention, really. Of media articles and your social media and all those things that you do on a regular basis. Because otherwise, you've really lost the opportunity. It's not worth it. It's not worth it to do all that if they then come to a website that is really old, a brand that looks out of date, they're not saying anything on social, that kind of thing. That's where I see a disconnect. Because we don't build websites. If I've got a client that the website's terrible, I'll say, we got to do this first before we kick that in.  What are some of the common mistakes you see construction companies make with branding? [00:19:13] Mark: It looks like I might have jumped the gun on that question. That one mistake is just seeing it as a one-and-done kind of thing. That's probably the biggest mistake. A lot of times I think it's just that follow through with, really, I'll use the word activating. Maybe that's a buzzword. You've developed all this great work to figure out what you stand for. You've maybe gone through a rebrand with a new logo and tagline and all those kinds of things. Then following through with maybe a brand awareness campaign of some sort just to make sure that then is put to use. We often say the logo you put out there, the tagline, those things are really like—they don't have any meaning really in and of themselves. They have some based on the style and all of that, but it's more about how do you start to attach meaning to that. I think just encouraging construction companies then to figure out ways to tell that story. Then just using some of the low-hanging fruit might be—at least the things that we see is like maybe you're telling stories. We've gone through the work to figure out who your audience is. Maybe it's putting that out on social media and putting a little bit of an ad buy behind it that's very targeted. Just to ensure that it's getting out there and in front of folks or on the recruitment side, developing maybe some strong creative that really speaks to that workforce that you're looking to attract. Then, again, putting a little push behind it so that it goes out there. The other, I guess, mistake, maybe an example that we saw or we've seen in the past is if you can then just make sure on the recruitment side in particular, that there's great follow through. What I mean by that is we had a client here, a building materials company in Chicago. Finding truck drivers has just been hard. There was a lot of effort putting together this campaign to really try attract folks to leave their current job maybe driving garbage trucks or other delivery trucks, and come work for them to drive a ready-mix truck. One of the most important things that the company did was, in addition to recruitment campaign, they really worked hard on the experience that these recruits had in onboarding, because what they found is that they would sign up, they would leave after the first day or two on the job because it was just too overwhelming. So they worked really hard to create this experience for the first couple of weeks of training to really bring them to reset expectations, to help them understand what they're going through in a way that was consistent with the messaging that was put out there in the campaign. Just to see that that was aligned. That was the case where they would attract a bunch of people, but if the expectations weren’t right then it was just more work. [00:22:06] Michelle: That's fascinating. Your prior point about attaching meaning to a logo and a tagline, I don't know if you've seen that movie, there's a movie out about the Nike deal with Michael Jordan. I don't know if you've had a chance to see it. [00:22:17] Mark: I haven't seen that yet. Would you recommend it? [00:22:19] Michelle: I do. It was great. One of the things that it was fascinating to watch them talk about—these were executives with Nike and they're talking about, “Yeah, have you heard, there's this new tagline they're talking about called 'Just do it'?” And to hear that from—this was, I guess, in the '90s when they were starting to talk about it. If you'd been in that meeting where it's like a swoosh mark and just do it, you'd have sat there and thought, “What?” They have attached such meaning to that through their ongoing efforts to where now we get it, we get what they're saying by that. Without all that, it would've been a useless just do it. Definitely. From a brand guy I think you find that movie fascinating. I definitely did from a PR side. Second last question I'd like to ask. We talked about how brands have evolved and that kind of thing. How does a creative make sure that he's reflecting how brands are? Is it just watching what other brands are doing and helping them stay relevant? There might not be any way other than just working in the industry and seeing how brands are changing, but how do you do that? [00:23:33] Mark: Probably like any industry, there's folks who tend to rise up as really leaders, thought leaders. I think we try to stay pretty in tune with that. Participating in conferences, secondary workshops, those types of things. There's been some really great thinking in terms of brand strategy and design. A group out of southern California called The Futur’s Chris Do that we love to follow and just learn about how to do our work better. I'm trying to think how to frame that up for these AEC firms in terms of how do they get better educated about that. [00:24:18] Michelle: I'll jump in. My guess is, one, just to be aware that these things change. Design sensibilities. I think that was a lesson I got. It's like you don't really realize that fashion changes until you haven't touched that pair of jeans for 10 years. You pull it out and you think, "I can fit in these," and you turn and put them on and you're like, "That doesn't work at all.” The point is that these things change and how your target audiences perceive you because of those changes is impacted. They wouldn't be aware of that unless people like us told them because it's not their job to be aware of it. Just being aware of that and then working with somebody like you who stays connected. But being open to the fact that these things change and you've got to, if you look at any major brand, they have evolved. Like McDonald's or Amazon, these things, they evolve. They don't just stick with that same brand for the same reasons that you shouldn't wear your 10-year-old pair of jeans. Do you agree with that? [00:25:25] Mark: Yes, I agree. It makes me think of the client we worked on together where the owner recognized, like, he used the analogy of the construction projects, the infrastructure projects they build, which I thought was really good where he's like, we 100% stand by the work that we did at that time. It did exactly what it needed to do. It was great work. Things have changed. Things break down over time. It takes work to keep at it and keep it together and keep moving forward. He really saw their rebrand as an opportunity to just honor what his father and previous generations had done before and really think about where they were headed. I think the result was in some ways their visual identity became simpler, stronger, more clear. It spoke more to the core of who they were and the what that they did. [00:26:24] Michelle: Yes, that's spot on. I agree. I remember hearing that analogy he made. The analogy was, just like bridges, roads, they have to be updated. This company built the first generation of America's highway system. We're now looking at a need to refresh that and update the infrastructure and it's the same way.  I think the idea there was that they had a lot of this as a company with a very strong culture internally. You've got people who've worked their generations, who had a real affinity and nostalgia for the current brand. He wanted to make sure and to give them an understanding of why would we change something that everyone feels so connected to? I think it really turned out well when he was able to explain it that way. [00:27:14] Mark: Yes. For them it was definitely going through that process of just calling out and naming the things that they'd always stood for but never really identified. [00:27:24] Michelle: Formalized. [00:27:25] Mark: So that they could then make it go farther so that they could move from just a core group who understood it because they had been there and they'd been a part of building it to something that was really transferable. I think that's the power of branding or brand there is it really helps transfer those ideas. [00:27:48] Michelle: Yes. That's great. Well, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much, Mark.  We have been talking to Mark Wierda of Cultivate Brands. If our listeners want to learn more about your team and what you do, where should they go? [00:28:03] Mark: Yes, probably the best place is to just head to our website, cultivatebrands.com. [00:28:08] Michelle: Great. Well, thank you so much for joining me. [00:28:11] Mark: Yes, thank you, Michelle. [music] [00:28:14] Michelle: Thanks for listening to “Spill the Ink,” a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.  

Women face unique challenges in the workplace, particularly in male-dominated industries like law. For female law firm owners, these challenges can inadvertently impact their efforts to efficiently scale their business, leaving highly capable attorneys to grow their firms at a slower pace than their male counterparts. In this episode of “Spill the Ink,” host Michelle Calcote King invites Davina Frederick to weigh in on the conversation and share how she’s helped lawyers grow their firms. Davina is the owner of Wealthy Woman Lawyer, a strategic growth planning and coaching company that helps women law firm owners turn their businesses into million-dollar enterprises. Davina shares personal anecdotes and insights into overcoming these challenges and empowering female law firm owners to achieve accelerated growth. Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn Who is Davina Frederick and what is Wealthy Woman Lawyer The unique challenges faced by women-led law firms How to scale your solo law firm in a million-dollar enterprise Shifting your business mindset to that of a CEO-level thinker Key components of marketing for scale Why a systems-driven business model is ideal for law firms Resources mentioned in this episode Check out Wealthy Woman Lawyer Follow Wealthy Woman Lawyer on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram Connect with Davina Frederick on LinkedIn Say hello to Michelle Calcote King on Twitter and LinkedIn Check out Davina’s books:  “The Wealthy Woman Lawyer’s Guide to Law Firm Marketing in the Virtual Age: 10 Bold Actions to Take Now to Attract Your Ideal Clients with Total Ease”  “The Wealthy Woman Lawyer’s Guide to Building a Systems-Driven Law Firm Business: 7 Essential Systems You Need to Take Back Your Time, Avoid Burnout, and Create Lasting Wealth” Listen to the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast About our featured guest Davina Frederick is a Florida-licensed attorney, law firm growth strategist, and business coach for women law firm owners. She is the founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer®, a strategic growth planning and coaching company that helps women law firm owners scale their law firm businesses to and through $1 million. She’s also the founder of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® League, a community and program designed to support women law firm owners who want to scale from solo to CEO of a thriving law firm business. Davina is the host of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, a top podcast for women in law in the U.S., and a two-time author of books on law firm management and marketing.  Sponsor for this episode This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink. Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.  Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more. To learn more visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today.