
Secondary Rules
Join legal scholars Ryan Goss and Joshua Neoh as they discuss public law and legal theory in their podcast, Secondary Rules. In each episode, Ryan and Joshua bring to life exciting cases, puzzles, and controversies from Australia and around the world - exploring some of the biggest questions facing any legal system, and the legal questions that define our democracy.
Ryan and Joshua are both associate professors at The Australian National University (ANU) College of Law in Canberra, teaching and researching Australian public law and legal theory. Whether you're a lawyer, a law student or just somebody interested in better understanding the legal world around us, Secondary Rules is a must-listen podcast.
Season 3: Ten(ish) Big Ideas
Season 2: Ten Great Cases.
Season 1: Two Great Courses.
Latest episodes

Oct 25, 2024 • 45min
Is it over now?
Dive into a riveting discussion on Australia's Constitution, highlighting its unique evolution from an imperial statute to a cornerstone of democracy. Explore the challenges of interpreting 'foreign powers' as social norms shift. Delve into the debate between originalism and modern interpretations, questioning who truly holds the power to redefine constitutional meanings. Discover the role of judges in navigating historical texts and the intricate dynamics behind constitutional reforms, all while reflecting on the implications for future generations.

Oct 18, 2024 • 45min
Sovereignty on the Beach
Dive into the intriguing concept of sovereignty as the hosts connect Churchill's speeches to modern governance. They unravel the legal implications of Guantanamo Bay and explore the impact of post-9/11 laws on civil rights. Historical perspectives create a backdrop for examining sovereign power in Australian constitutionalism, transitioning authority from London to the people. Plus, the complicating factors of secrecy in governance are highlighted, focusing on undisclosed ministerial roles during the pandemic. A captivating blend of history, law, and political theory!

Oct 11, 2024 • 42min
How You Get The Vote
The discussion kicks off with the essence of democracy, reflecting on Lincoln's view of the people's voice. It dives deep into the authenticity of various democratic systems, including insights from ancient Athens. The hosts question the legitimacy of Athenian democracy, exploring voting rights and modern challenges. They navigate the complexities of representative democracy and propose reforms like proportional representation. Lastly, they tackle the intricacies of direct democracy, assessing the Brexit referendum and the need for fair decision-making processes.

Oct 4, 2024 • 40min
Staters Gonna State
Dive into the fascinating world of statehood, where territory meets authority in unexpected ways. Explore how mutual protection shapes governance, and why some thinkers view the state as a necessary evil. Delve into human vulnerability, the complexities of greed, and the philosophical debates surrounding social contracts. Laugh along as the hosts tackle whether giant sea monsters hold lessons for modern societies, and reflect on the importance of an independent arbiter for peace. It's a captivating mix of theory, humor, and thought-provoking discussions!

Sep 27, 2024 • 40min
Look What The Law Made Me Do
Dive into the fascinating concept of the rule of law, where governance is contrasted with arbitrary power. Explore the differing interpretations between English and French legal systems, and the historical figures shaping these views. Hear about a quirky product liability case involving a snail in a bottle. The discussion touches on the balance between legal principles and societal values, and intriguingly compares cricket rules to the intricacies of legal systems. Finally, contemplate the future of legal legitimacy in a world influenced by organized crime.

Sep 20, 2024 • 35min
I Look in People's Windows
Dive into the intriguing concept of 'the people' and its vital role in constitutional law. Explore revolutionary ideals spurred by hunger in historical contexts like the American and French Revolutions. Discover Hannah Arendt's contrasting views on democracy and political discourse. Learn about the significance of covenants in shaping societies and the historical exclusions from the body politic. This thought-provoking discussion unravels complex ideas that continue to resonate in today's political landscape.

Sep 13, 2024 • 1min
The Tortured Lawyers Department
Here’s the long-awaited trailer for the third season of ANU Law’s Secondary Rules podcast — coming soon!Make sure you’re following or subscribed so you get the new episodes as soon as they land. Catch up on our back catalogue at https://secondary-rules.simplecast.comSecondary Rules is hosted by ANU Law's Joshua Neoh and Ryan Goss. Learn more about ANU Law here. Our thanks to the ANU College of Law and the ANU Centre for Learning and Teaching. The ANU acknowledges and celebrates the First Australians on whose traditional lands we meet, and pays our respect to elders past and present.

Oct 13, 2023 • 37min
Mabo v Queensland
The podcast explores the landmark court decision of Mabo v Queensland and its importance in legal theory, public law, and legal history. It discusses the history and legal proceedings of the case, John Locke's theory of property ownership, the interpretation of the law, different approaches taken by the judges, and the significance of the Native Title Act.

Oct 6, 2023 • 37min
Mazibuko v City of Johannesburg
Dive into the landmark case that questioned the role of the judiciary in safeguarding socio-economic rights in South Africa. Explore the historical journey from apartheid to the drafting of the Constitution in 1996. Delve into the complexities of providing access to water, especially for residents in informal settlements. Unpack the government's legal strategies and challenges surrounding water rights. Finally, reflect on the ongoing struggle of marginalized communities and the balance between individuals' needs and government resources.

Sep 29, 2023 • 39min
Rome v Jesus
The trial that changed the world. A Jewish rabble-rouser came face-to-face with a provincial Roman governor. He was hanged. But his death was not the end. It was just the beginning. Spikenard not included.For a cosmic interpretation, see Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ (2004).For a comic interpretation, see Monty Python’s Life of Brian(1979).Learn more about the ANU College of Law here. Our thanks to the ANU College of Law Marketing and Communications team. ANU acknowledges and celebrates the First Australians on whose traditional lands we meet, and pays our respect to elders past and present.