
When the Facts Change
Hosted by journalist Bernard Hickey, When the Facts Change is your essential weekly guide to the intersection of economics, business and politics in Aotearoa New Zealand. Presented by The Spinoff together with Kiwibank.Visit kiwibank.co.nz to find out how Kiwibank are making Kiwi better off
Latest episodes

Sep 2, 2021 • 51min
The case for mandatory vaccines in the workplace
Businesses face a big task and some big decisions in the months ahead. They need to ensure as many staff as possible get vaccinated, without breaking the law or alienating their workforces. They’ll have to look at their own vaccination programmes, their own testing policies and their employment policies. Should they adopt a “no jab no job” policy? Can they? To discuss where these lines will be drawn and who should be doing that drawing – businesses or government – Bernard Hickey talks to BusinessNZ CEO Kirk Hope and Frances Hughes from Oceania Healthcare. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aug 31, 2021 • 29min
Bonus episode: How businesses are responding to the return of Covid-19
When New Zealand’s second national level four lockdown was announced in August, it was a situation many New Zealand business owners were already familiar with and prepared for. The Spinoff’s commercial editorial director Simon Day speaks to Quentin Quin, chief customer officer – business banking at Kiwibank, about what businesses have learned from the last 18 months and how that’s changed their response to the most recent outbreak. Before joining Kiwibank, Quentin worked in a number of post conflict countries, emerging economies and unregulated unstable business environments, and he compares that experience to the economic uncertainty of Covid-19. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aug 26, 2021 • 49min
Who's taking advantage of the wage subsidy scheme?
Last year the government paid out $14 billion in wage subsidies to businesses as part of the Covid-19 response. This included a number of large companies who went on to deliver big annual profits and dividends to shareholders – and very few of those companies have repaid it. In this week’s episode, Bernard Hickey looks at the ethics of the wage subsidy scheme and asks: where is the accountability? And is the social license that was there for wage subsidies in March 2020 still there now? Guests: Professor Jilnaught Wong from the University of Auckland and Peter Vial of Chartered Accountants Australia New Zealand. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aug 19, 2021 • 1h 6min
How should we plan our population?
How big do we want Aotearoa to be? How fast do we want it to grow, and where? And are we still a classless society, or are we becoming a country of owners and servants? In this episode, Bernard Hickey looks at the need for an actual population policy alongside new migration settings. To find out more he talks to demographers Paul Spoonley and Tahu Kukutai, the New Zealand Infrastructure Commission's Geoff Cooper and geographer Francis Collins. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aug 12, 2021 • 1h 2min
The political economy of the climate crisis
How is it that democracies can only make big, politically difficult changes when faced with an emergency? We did it last year with Covid-19 – so could we do it again with the climate emergency that is in our faces right now? New reports released this week all point to the fact we can’t really afford to wait any longer – we need to take some political and economic pain to reduce emissions, and do it fast. To explore the political economy issues of dealing with climate change as an emergency, Bernard talks to Stephen Mills from UMR, researcher Jess Berentson-Shaw and the 1point5 Project’s Paul Winton. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Aug 5, 2021 • 1h 6min
How do we fix our unkind migration system?
What does the way we treat our migrant population say about who we are as a country? With around 200,000 people living and working in New Zealand on temporary visas, pressure is mounting on the government to make sweeping policy changes to address the limbo these migrants are being left in – an already Kafkaesque situation which has only been exacerbated by Covid. To look at how we ended up in this situation and what needs to be done to tackle the problems that have arisen as a result, Bernard talks to National’s immigration spokesperson Erica Stanford, The New Zealand Initiative's Eric Crampton and Dr Oliver Hartwich, along with immigration lawyer Alistair McClymont. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jul 29, 2021 • 47min
Back to the future of public transport
Bernard Hickey goes on a journey to find out how New Zealand's fascinating public transport history can inform our future, meeting musician, historian and public transport advocate Anthonie Tonnon at Whanganui’s historic Durie Hill underground elevator. Built in 1919, the elevator was once part of an extensive and heavily used public transport network in the city – how were these networks built, why did they die off and what can they tell us about the future of public transport in this country? To find out more about the current state of public transport and what happens next, Bernard talks to transport minister Michael Wood. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jul 27, 2021 • 40min
Bonus episode: SMEs with Kiwibank’s Joanna Greaves
The Spinoff business editor Michael Andrew speaks to Joanna Greaves, head of the small and medium enterprise team at Kiwibank. As an award-winning dairy farmer, accountant, agricultural ambassador and small business owner, Joanna has a wonderful insight into the value and the realities of SMEs in New Zealand. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jul 22, 2021 • 42min
How do we get a vaccination rate over 80%?
Around the world, countries are seeing Covid-19 vaccination rates plateauing at around 50-60% – and it's hurting them badly. So how will we get our Covid-19 vaccination rates up to the 80%-90% required for herd immunity? In this episode, Bernard Hickey explains how we can nudge our way to that target using behavioural economics and behavioural finance to get there. To find out more, he speaks to Māori health advocate Rawiri McKree Jansen and vaccinologist Helen Petousis-Harris. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Jul 15, 2021 • 38min
A big money-saving solar power idea
New Zealand's electricity market isn't working to produce enough renewable power to get to carbon zero by 2050 – but maybe there’s a solution in solar power and batteries in everyone’s homes. In this episode, Bernard Hickey explores an idea for how the government could shake up the electricity sector and return the big taxpayer-built power schemes to public ownership. Guests: Flick Electric Co CEO Steve O’Connor and Eric Pyle, the director of public affairs and policy at solarZero. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices