The Allender Center Podcast

Dr. David C. Wang is a psychologist and pastor, leading the emotionally healthy leaders program at Fuller Theological Seminary. Joining him is Dr. Danielle Zurinsky, a research manager at the Allender Center with expertise in health psychology. They dive into a groundbreaking research project on Narrative Focused Trauma Care, exploring why storytelling can be so transformative. Their conversation reveals the blending of faith and psychology, the importance of personal narratives in trauma recovery, and the vital role of community in healing.

In a compelling conversation, Adam Young, a counselor and author, shares his insights on how unexpected plot twists in our stories can lead to profound healing and transformation. He discusses the importance of revisiting painful past experiences with kindness instead of shame, emphasizing that vulnerability fosters connection and redemption. Adam also highlights the empowering role of storytelling in understanding trauma and encourages embracing our narratives to discover freedom and hope. Get ready to engage your past with courage and compassion!

Pastors today are navigating a complex, demanding, and often overwhelming landscape. Beyond the pulpit, they're expected to show up as counselors, administrators, fundraisers, teachers, building caretakers—and more. Some research even suggests pastors are carrying the weight of 13 different roles. It’s no wonder so many feel stretched thin, exhausted, and alone. Today, Rachael and Dan sit down with Dr. Rose Madrid Swetman, Associate Director of the Center for Transforming Engagement, to name the often-unseen burdens pastors and ministry leaders carry—and to explore what it means to create space for care, support, and more sustainable leadership. Whether you're a pastor, a ministry leader, or someone who walks alongside and loves one, this episode offers a deeply human invitation: to reflect on how we care for ourselves, our leaders, and our communities. You’ll find honest stories, thoughtful wisdom, and tangible practices for cultivating resilience—not by striving harder, but by rooting more deeply in connection: with God, with others, and with the truth that we were never meant to carry it all alone. Related Resources: Feeling overwhelmed or isolated in ministry? You’re not alone. The Center for Transforming Engagement offers tools, support, and community to help you rediscover joy, build resilience, and lead with lasting impact. Find program offerings and resources at transformingengagement.org and find out more about Resilience Circles at transformingengagement.org/circles.  Self-Facilitated Resilience Retreat Guides: Download this free series to focus on three key areas of resilience: People, Practices, and Purpose. These mini-retreats are flexible and self-paced, providing practical tools to navigate life's challenges and strengthen your resilience. Get your free guides at transformingengagement.org/self-facilitated-resilience-retreat-guides. Rose cites the work of Steven Sandage, a Boston University School of Theology professor of psychology of religion and theology, who has found rates of post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms in clergy at levels higher than those in post-deployment military personnel. You can read about that work here: https://www.bu.edu/articles/2022/why-are-so-many-religious-leaders-facing-stress-and-burnout/.  Rose also recommends looking into the work of Abraham Kuypter on public theology. Find more here: https://lexhampress.com/Kuyper

Good Friday is often described as paradoxical—a day of deep sorrow somehow called “good.” In this moving episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dr. Dan Allender and Rachael Clinton Chen invite us into that paradox, not just as observers of the crucifixion story, but as participants—people whose own stories of betrayal, abandonment, and suffering echo the narrative of Jesus’ final hours. Together, they explore what it means to enter into Good Friday by entering into our own “Fridays”—those dark and disorienting moments of our lives when we've not only been betrayed, but also betrayed others. The conversation invites us to reflect on the intersection between personal pain and collective suffering, and to consider how our experiences of humiliation, violence, and even despair connect us to the story of the cross. But this episode is not one of despair alone. It’s an invitation to sit honestly in the tension of a day when evil seems to win, and yet—somehow—we dare to believe redemption is being forged in the depths of that agony. As Rachael says, it’s a time when we’re forced to confront the death of a dream, the silence between what is and what is promised. And yet, even in the sorrow, there is a movement toward hope. This topic is not easy—but it is so important to engage. We hope today’s conversation offers space to weep, to name, and to consider how our own stories might be met and transformed by the suffering and love of Christ.  

Few relationships shape us like those with our siblings.  Whether you have siblings, share a sibling-like bond with a cousin or family friend, or are a parent navigating sibling dynamics, these relationships often play a significant role in defining our identity. Since so many of our listeners have asked us to explore this topic, today on the Allender Center Podcast, Dan and Rachael are diving deep into the messy, beautiful, and sometimes heartbreaking world of sibling dynamics. In today’s episode, we explore how these dynamics often lead to rivalries, alliances, and, at times, painful wounds that can last well into adulthood.  These sibling roles aren’t just part of our personal stories—they are deeply rooted in ancient patterns. We see these themes echoed in biblical texts, where stories of favor, envy, and scarcity unfold through generations. From Cain and Abel to Joseph and his brothers, the struggles we face with our siblings have a long, storied history. Tune in to gain fresh perspectives on navigating your sibling relationships, create space for growth, and learn how to honor the complex and beautiful stories each of you is living out.  

Sam Jolman revisits the profound themes of his book, exploring how the biblical story of Amnon and Tamar illuminates issues of lust, power, and the generational impacts of trauma. He challenges men to engage with their pasts honestly, advocating for healing through humility and storytelling. The conversation delves into emotional turmoil and the transformative power of literature, urging a deeper understanding of masculinity. Ultimately, it's a call to embrace a sexuality that honors and protects rather than harms.

In part two of this conversation, Dan and Rachael continue their exploration by addressing the profound link between shame, food, and sex.  Shame is often leveraged by evil around our core needs for nourishment and intimacy to isolate and create deeper wounds, making it difficult to engage these areas with openness.   Dan emphasizes, "Knowing your story’s vulnerability to how you have been harmed, but also how you've used food and sex," is crucial. Rather than allowing shame to silence or control us, Dan and Rachael encourage listeners to confront it with boldness. While shame may never fully disappear, we can engage it—not with harshness or self-destruction, but with a fierce kindness and courageous defiance. Rachael shares: “The Spirit is often inviting me in the disruption of shame, not to power up and go toward fight, flight or freeze as a way to disrupt shame, but to move toward tenderness, to move toward grief, to move toward a kind of righteous anger that leads to a ‘hell no.’”  Ultimately, the work of dismantling shame happens within a community of care. Dan reminds us that true healing takes place in a "playground of kindness"—a space where we are seen, known, and deeply loved. Please note that this episode contains discussions of sexual development, sex, body image, and disordered eating, and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.  

This conversation dives into the intricate relationships between food, sex, and the emotions tied to shame. It highlights how these vital aspects shape our sense of safety and connection from the womb onward. Societal pressures and personal trauma impact our perceptions of body image and intimacy. The discussion also explores the comforting bonds formed through shared meals and communal experiences. As listeners reflect on their journeys, they’re reminded of the interconnectedness of love, comfort, and healing in navigating the complexities of food and sexuality.

We’re thrilled to welcome back Pastor James A. White, who challenges us to think deeply about the stories we’ve been told — and the ones we haven’t. Who decides which stories get remembered and which are forgotten? How has a Western lens shaped our understanding of the gospel? And what can happen when we truly honor the origin stories of everyone — individual cultures, histories, and experiences? Pastor White believes that our past holds the key to both understanding the present and shaping a better future. In a world where truth is often distorted or silenced, he calls us to reclaim the power of storytelling — to listen well, read with intention, and resist narratives that erase or exclude. Drawing from the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman, Pastor White highlights how Jesus intentionally crossed cultural divides to connect with and honor another’s story — a powerful example of wisdom, humility, and compassion. The conversation calls for greater humility and curiosity in how we engage with others' stories, especially those shaped by trauma, resistance, and survival, while acknowledging the ways history and power influence how stories are told and remembered.  

We’re continuing our conversation with Rev. Dr. David Rice about confronting Christian nationalism—a topic we’re diving into because of the ways that it can deeply affect our faith, our communities, and how we engage with one another in this shifting cultural and political landscape. In our last episode, David shared his personal story—how his upbringing, ministry experiences, and cultural shifts shaped his understanding of faith and politics. We explored the unique challenges pastors face in addressing these issues from the pulpit and the tension of being accused of getting "too political" when speaking out about national concerns. If you haven’t had a chance to listen yet, we encourage you to go back and catch up on that conversation first. In this episode, we’ll dig deeper into: What Christian nationalism is and why it’s a critical issue for people of faith, Our collective longing for control—something humanity has wrestled with since the very beginning—and how this longing fuels Christian nationalism, And how we can thoughtfully engage with our friends, neighbors, and fellow believers in conversations about these challenging issues. We hope our conversation with David sparks some new thoughts or insights into how power is being used, where our faith fits into these conversations, and how we can move forward in meaningful, compassionate ways. About Our Guest: Rev. Dr. David Rice is BJC’s digital strategist, leading online engagement for the organization and its Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign. BJC is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization that brings people together to tackle today’s serious threats to religious liberty, including the targeting of religious minorities, the rise of Christian nationalism, and the politicization of houses of worship. Ordained in the American Baptist Churches USA, Rice joined BJC’s staff in 2024 after previously serving in rural parish ministry and starting his own communications consulting firm. Rice earned a Doctor of Ministry degree in missiology and organizational leadership from Western Theological Seminary and a Master of Divinity degree from the Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. His undergraduate degree is from Huntington University, where he studied youth ministry and Bible. Rice, who has lived on the West Coast and in the UK, now lives in Michigan with his family. He enjoys cycling, gardening, cross-country skiing, sourdough bread baking, traveling, and Arsenal football.