Life After Ministry

At some point in ministry, we start confusing busyness for faithfulness. We tell ourselves that exhaustion is just the cost of obedience - that being needed, stretched thin, and constantly available somehow means we’re doing it right.  But deep down, we know something’s wrong. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever. This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry. Key Takeaways Being busy for God is not the same as being faithful to Him. Stress isn’t proof of calling; it’s often a signal of fear or misplaced trust. Burnout is your body’s declaration of bankruptcy - an invitation to reorganize your life. Ministry culture often rewards overwork, but Jesus modeled a rhythm of rest and presence. True stewardship includes managing time as a sacred resource, not an endless debt. Building trust with time begins by creating small, consistent commitment plans. You don’t have to burn out to be fruitful. The work of God is sustained by the peace of God. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Matt and Andrew reconnect after 20 years 01:43 – When “busy for God” became burnout 05:18 – The body declares bankruptcy on stress 07:03 – Solving the time problem 09:21 – Is burnout a failure or a signal? 13:52 – Fear, faith, and our emotional relationship with time 17:24 – How “commitment plans” build peace 19:10 – Leading others in stewardship of time 23:48 – What life looks like on the other side of burnout 26:33 – Teams that heal their pace together Learn more, donate, or schedule a confidential transition call at MinistryTransitions.com Explore Andrew Hartman’s resources - free masterclass, coaching, and tools - at TimeBoss.us  

Most pastors imagine ministry as a lifelong calling, until something shifts - slowly, painfully, or all at once.  In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense.  Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling. From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see.  And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God. This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect. Key Takeaways How God can initiate a transition long before you understand it. Why community and spiritual friends are essential during vocational upheaval. What happens when the pain of staying becomes greater than the fear of leaving. How unaddressed wounds from ministry begin to surface during transitions. Why the Lord’s Prayer is a daily blueprint for grounding, clarity, and direction. The difference between assignment and calling in a leader’s life. How God works slowly, quietly, and faithfully in seasons that feel stalled. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introductions and the two Brads 01:10 – Brad Gray’s unexpected call away from a thriving church 03:45 – Moving to Nashville without a plan 07:00 – Brad Nelson’s painful exit from church planting 09:35 – How ministries unravel marriages and identities 12:30 – Discernment, tension, and the pivot point 14:30 – When pain forces change 20:00 – The Lord’s Prayer as a blueprint for life 25:43 – Kingdom, calling, and partnering with God 29:09 – The making of the film and book 33:06 – How churches can use the new resources 38:30 – What they would say to their former selves 42:49 – Is there life after ministry? 43:40 – Final thoughts and blessing Your story is not over. In fact, this may be the first time in years that God finally has the space to show you who you are beyond what you do. If you’re navigating a transition, facing a forced resignation, preparing for succession, or simply unraveling quietly under the weight of ministry, reach out. You don’t have to make these decisions alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation or to give toward a leader who is carrying more than they can name. And if you want to explore the formative power of the Lord’s Prayer as a companion in this season, engage the resources at https://thelordsprayer.com. They offer a film, a forthcoming episodic series, and a new book designed to walk with you as God leads you into what’s next. There is life after ministry. And God is already in the future preparing it for you.

Dr. Nathan Baxter loved ten hours of his job. Those one-on-ones with staff fueled him. The rest slowly emptied him. Naming that truth started a two-year journey out of a role he’d held for decades. He didn’t abandon ministry. He changed vehicles so his calling could breathe again. In this conversation Nathan walks through a practical runway. He set a modest income target, built a small savings cushion, and launched a coaching practice with a pastor’s heart. He also shares the moment his elders asked him to leave sooner than planned and chose surprising generosity, a gift that humbled him more than any pain. Now coaching CEOs and pastors alike, Nathan talks finishing well, clarifying a “particular purpose,” and the three anchors every leader over 50 needs: margin, influence, and hyper-intentional living.  If transition feels like free fall, this episode will help you steady your soul and take the next right step. Key Takeaways Honest work audits can reveal misaligned roles without shaming your calling. A two-year discernment window can hold fear, finances, and family well. Build a simple runway: clear income target and small savings cushion. Generosity in transition can reframe pain and deepen humility. You can keep a pastoral identity while changing employers. Finishing well rests on margin, influence, and intentional living. Purpose is discovered over time. Let the desert do its work. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and background 02:20 When the job isn’t the joy anymore 04:55 Two-year wrestle and first paid coaching moment 08:24 Elders, early exit, unexpected generosity 10:14 Building a practical runway and budget targets 12:16 Why “Lead Self, Lead Others” 16:02 Defining finishing well in the fourth quarter 18:18 Retiring the fee, keeping the call at 68 20:07 Purpose unfolds slowly, not suddenly 24:42 Margin, influence, and hyper-intentional life 27:30 Why pastors make great coaches 30:01 CEOs and pastors face the same pressures 31:38 Wisdom to a next-gen pastor son 34:03 Where to find Nathan’s work Before you make the next move, make the wise one. Visit ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential call, get transition tools for your board or staff, or give to help another leader walk through theirs with dignity. To learn more about how pastors can become powerful leadership coaches, visit leadselfleadothers.com or realcoachingsuccess.com. You’ll find tools to help you clarify calling, build a coaching rhythm, and multiply your impact beyond the church walls.

When the role that once fit like a second skin begins to suffocate, what do you do? For Duncan Robinson, it meant stepping away. No scandal. No collapse. Just honesty and courage to say, “I need to sit down and be fed.” That decision took him from church staff to radio hosting, from the pulpit to row three, and eventually back into ministry with a new clarity.  Along the way, he discovered how to face failure without fear, how to detach identity from role, and why bi-vocational rhythms might be the healthiest way forward for pastors. If you’re navigating transition - or helping someone who is - this conversation offers language and hope for what comes next. Key Takeaways  Identity is received in Christ, not earned by a role Failure roars like a lion but shrinks when faced Grace isn’t tidy - it meets you in real time Bi-vocational ministry mirrors the lives of congregants Pastoral skills translate beyond the pulpit Churches can pilot one day of outside work for healthier staff The wilderness is where God grows clarity and love Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and setup 05:15 From Phoenix growth to Australian valley 08:30 Radio hosting and a father’s death 10:56 Untangling identity from role 15:45 A year of silence and being fed 21:05 What “pastor” really means 24:50 Transferable skills pastors overlook 29:20 Why bi-vocational makes sense 40:10 Real-time grace at the speed of Jesus 45:10 Closing If you’re a pastor or ministry leader facing transition - or walking with someone who is - you don’t have to do it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com to explore coaching, confidential conversations, and resources designed to help you protect people, preserve purpose, and plan what’s next with wisdom and grace. To connect with Duncan Robinson, visit DuncanRobinson.net for links to his projects, speaking, and his book Full Phoenix Rising: Real-Time Grace at the Speed of Jesus - a raw and redemptive look at failure, faith, and finding your way back when everything falls apart. You can also find Full Phoenix Rising on Amazon, Target, Walmart, and other major retailers. If this conversation encouraged you, share the episode with a friend who might need to hear that stepping out of ministry doesn’t mean stepping out of God’s calling - it might just mean walking it out differently.

Ministry employment isn’t just HR. It’s covenant community, stewardship, and public witness.  In this episode, attorney and former ministry leader John Melcon explains how churches and nonprofits can handle staff transitions without abandoning their values or ignoring real risks. John shares his own sudden exit from a director role in Christian higher education and how that season led him to serve ministries as legal counsel.  He outlines why U.S. courts often take a hands-off approach to religious leadership disputes, what that means for pastors and boards, and how to prepare before conflict ever arises. From “talk about your last day on your first day” to using Christian conciliation instead of civil court, this conversation offers a road map: clarity in writing, compassion in tone, and a process that keeps the mission central. Key Takeaways Mission and values - not fear - should drive personnel policy and decisions. U.S. law generally avoids entangling courts in religious leadership disputes; plan accordingly. Written agreements can be precise and pastoral when drafted with mutual dignity in mind. Succession planning is discipleship: normalize timelines and transitions early. Consider mutual confidentiality/non-disparagement; avoid clauses that suppress lawful reporting. Use Christian conciliation for disputes when both parties voluntarily opt in. Involve counsel early - clarity at formation prevents costly confusion at separation. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Welcome, the tension of boss and brother 02:54 — John’s ministry background and unexpected termination 08:55 — Discernment, law school, and a new calling 12:51 — “Lawyers aren’t the enemy” and the advisor model 16:07 — How religious liberty shapes ministry employment 23:43 — Loyalty, performance, and ending well 28:49 — Clarity at the start: contracts, bylaws, expectations 32:56 — Christian conciliation vs. civil court 37:36 — NDAs, confidentiality, and what’s wise now 41:43 — Culture signals: how we say goodbye       When ministry transitions go wrong, the fallout isn’t just legal - it’s spiritual. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss and change with clarity, care, and purpose. Start your next chapter at ministrytransitions.com. And when wise legal counsel is needed, John Melcon brings both legal expertise and a ministry heart. Learn more about his work serving churches and nonprofits at taftlaw.com/people/john-terry-melcon/.

Quiet fatigue rarely announces itself. It hums under the surface until a crisis forces a decision.  In this conversation, Marine veteran and Forte co-founder Vineet Rajan reframes care for leaders as mental fitness - a proactive, daily practice that keeps pastors and nonprofit teams clear-headed, resilient, and ready. We contrast mental fitness with therapy, name the everyday pressures leaders face, and offer accessible rhythms that fit real life.  You’ll hear why churches are becoming early adopters, how to reduce noise so you can notice what God is saying, and why outcomes - not just usage - should drive board decisions. If you lead people, steward budgets, or carry a call that feels heavier than it used to, this episode gives you language, guardrails, and next steps to strengthen your team without adding shame or hype. Key Takeaways Mental fitness is proactive training; therapy is reactive care for acute needs. Both matter. Leaders fight three constants: entropy, the enemy, and evil - training helps us endure them. Preventative care beats crisis management; reduce interior noise to increase signal. Ministries love the model because it separates staff care from supervisory entanglements. Outcomes matter: increased productivity and well-being translate to real ROI. Accessibility drives adoption: mobile scheduling, short sessions, and confidentiality. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and setup 01:00 Vineet’s backstory: immigrant kid to Marine officer 04:00 What is Forte and who they serve 05:45 Mental fitness vs mental health - clear differences 09:20 Preventative maintenance and the “office vent” analogy 11:45 The three E’s: entropy, enemy, evil 15:00 Why churches became early adopters 19:30 EAPs, engagement, and outcomes that matter 22:05 The secret sauce: accessibility and aspiration 25:40 From interrogation training to loving people well 29:00 Vision: organizations solving big problems, people known and whole 31:15 Next steps for leaders and teams 33:30 Closing and partnership When leaders hit quiet fatigue, care starts with community. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss, burnout, and change - helping them rediscover clarity and calling. Visit ministrytransitions.com. For mental fitness solutions, Forte serves both sides of the mission field. Explore getforte.com/faith for Christian organizations, businesses, and nonprofits, or getforte.com for teams in the broader marketplace looking to build resilience and clarity.

When termination happens behind a closed door, the impact lands in the kitchen, the car line, and the kids’ bedrooms.  In this episode, pastor’s wife Kristen Joy Humiston tells the story of being shut out of the room, hearing “you’re done here,” and driving home past the houses of those who voted yes. Matt and Marilee name what many spouses carry in silence: rejection before termination, the isolation that follows, and how trauma forms when you have no voice, no choice, and no people.  They also get practical. What to do on day one. How to breathe, pack, and protect your children. How boards can reduce harm and how churches can care for the whole family, not just the titleholder. There is life after ministry. It may look different than you imagined. Yet dignity, honest community, and thoughtful planning can close a wound and leave a healed scar.  This conversation offers language, tools, and hope for spouses, leaders, and boards who want to do hard things better. Key Takeaways Forced termination becomes traumatic when people lose voice, choice, and community. Boards can reduce harm through clear policy, generous severance, and family-wide care. Day one priorities: safety, breathing space, housing plan, immediate financial triage. Spouses often sense red flags early; their intuition should be invited and honored. Community mitigates trauma; isolation cements it. Build a small circle fast. Identity untangling takes time for both pastor and spouse; purpose is bigger than a role. Support groups for ministry wives provide consistent, safe spaces for real healing. Chapter Markers 00:00 Cold open and setup 03:22 Introductions; why this conversation matters 05:49 “You’re done here”: the termination moment 09:29 Red flags and the slow drift toward decision 11:29 Rejection before the firing; betrayal and shock 16:32 The body keeps the score: words fail, pain speaks 20:06 Day zero logistics: kids, school, where to go 26:51 Finding footing: packing, jobs, housing 31:24 When the church orbits the pastor and forgets the spouse 35:29 How boards can reduce harm and do this better 40:11 Healing in community: support groups for ministry wives 50:17 Life after ministry: new work, real purpose 53:18 Preparing for a high-risk profession: finances and wisdom 55:24 Resources, next steps, and hope Connect with Matt and the team at MinistryTransitions.com for guidance through terminations, transitions, or succession planning. Explore Kristen’s support groups and coaching at KristenJoyCoaching.com for pastors’ wives and women navigating ministry fallout.

When a beloved role ends, identity gets loud.  In this candid conversation, Joshua Gordon traces his journey from ministry-adjacent entrepreneur to a surprising new assignment after his business collapsed in COVID. A trusted friend’s hard words, deep prayer, and patient community became “spiritual physio” that restored his sense of self in Christ. We talk about the gap between intention and impact in church transitions, why being “driven” can hide quiet desperation, and how to hear God’s still small voice before things are literally on fire.  Josh shares the practical and pastoral moves that protected his marriage, his kids, and his future calling. If you are a leader facing an ending, a board guiding one, or a pastor recovering from one, this episode offers language, wisdom, and hope. Faithfulness isn’t empire building. It’s walking with Jesus in ordinary choices that shape a lifetime. Key takeaways Intention without action creates collateral damage in transitions. “Driven” can be desperation in disguise; identity must relocate from role to Christ. God often speaks through memory, community, and quiet checks in the soul. Invite truth-telling friends. Love risks being misunderstood to protect you. Over-preparation can be control; trust requires limits on our need to manage outcomes. Measure success by faithfulness to Jesus and people, not by platform. Healthy endings open a window for deep heart work and future freedom. Chapter markers 00:00 Cold open, Canadians and calling 03:20 Intention vs impact in church transitions 07:30 PK expectations and disillusionment 10:20 Building a ministry-minded business 12:40 COVID collapse and costly layoffs 16:20 Untangling identity from role 18:45 A memory from God that exposed motive 28:55 “Physio” for the soul and daily trust 38:00 Friendship that told the hard truth 47:50 Closing one work, starting another 52:15 Learning to follow quiet discernment 59:30 Wealth redefined: family, faith, and freedom 1:04:15 Kingdom over empire, final blessing If you’re facing a ministry transition - or helping someone through one - visit MinistryTransitions.com to find confidential guidance, resources, and hope for what’s next. For more from Joshua Gordon and The Lead Pastor, visit here: https://theleadpastor.com/ 

When the New York Times ran with allegations surrounding Willow Creek’s founding pastor, Steve Carter had a choice: keep the machine running or protect the trust of the people in the room. He chose integrity - and walked away from the stage that had defined his career. In this conversation, Steve names the real costs: the silence inside the institution, the “values higher than the chaos” that guided him, and the morning-after reality that there was no job, no safety net, and no way to control the narrative. He talks about the anger he absorbed, the outside leaders who showed up, and the therapist’s hard question that kept him from repeating patterns. But the story doesn’t end in exile. It moves through a real wilderness - grief, breathing, waiting - and into a humbler, healthier life: moving back to the Midwest, choosing place over platform, and becoming the lead pastor at Christ Church. What emerges is a field guide for anyone facing a crisis of integrity in Christian leadership. Key Takeaways  Integrity over institutional preservation: Trust is sacred; don’t trade it for optics. Name “values higher than the chaos”: Decide in advance what you won’t violate when pressure comes. Healing is not transferable: There’s first-hand wounding and first-hand healing; your family needs its own path. Interrogate attraction to unhealthy systems: Ask why certain leaders and cultures feel “safe.” Grief takes the time it takes: Practice a Holy Saturday rhythm - don’t rush from Friday to Sunday. Choose place over platform: Calling is often geographic and relational, not positional. Lead from scars, not spin: Wounds can become witness when truth is told and humility is practiced. Chapter Markers 00:00 — Cold open: Why transitions are never just “staff changes” 04:53 — “These are my people”: the early joy at Willow 06:47 — Crisis emerges; what repentance would have required 09:14 — The headlines drop; “I won’t play with people’s trust” 11:52 — Who can you trust when the room is spinning? 17:22 — Six options, and why pastoring again wasn’t one of them 19:26 — Therapist’s jolt: “Why are you drawn to narcissists?” 22:16 — Outside support vs. inside backlash; the binder of messages 25:34 — Reframing the anger; learning what people were really saying 27:59 — Starbucks incident; a son’s question about “reward” 33:25 — Grieve, Breathe, Receive: the Holy Weekend framework 36:53 — Wilderness theology: disorientation to reorientation 39:36 — Reentry: discerning a safe, healthy church 41:33 — “Steve of Chicagoland”: called to a place, not a position 43:50 — Inner Hybels and inner Ortberg: action and formation 47:20 — Staying in touch; practicing faithfulness, not fame If you’re walking through a ministry transition or facing hard decisions about leadership, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to explore resources, donate to support a leader in the thick of change, or book a confidential call. You can also learn more about Steve Carter’s ministry and resources through Christ Church of Oak Brook and by picking up his book Grieve, Breathe, Receive at stevecarter.org/book.

Many pastors find themselves at the end of their ministry career unable to retire - not because they lack calling, but because they lack financial security. Churches often avoid the money conversation, leaving leaders stuck in the pulpit longer than they should be. In this episode, financial strategist Gabe Pelphrey opens the curtain on why retirement planning for ministry leaders so often gets ignored. He explains the unique challenges pastors face, the role boards must play, and the courageous conversations that make succession possible. This isn’t just about money - it’s about stewardship, legacy, and ensuring both leaders and churches are prepared for what’s next. Key Takeaways Why many pastors cannot financially afford to retire The board’s role in annual compensation and planning reviews How rabbi trusts and deferred compensation plans protect leaders and churches The danger of assuming “God will provide” without planning Why courageous conversations about money and succession matter How retrospective compensation studies address past underpayment Why planning early ensures dignity, security, and peace in transitions Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions 01:20 – The hidden financial crisis in pastoral transitions 03:45 – Who holds responsibility: pastor or board? 06:15 – When pastors retire into poverty 08:00 – Unique financial tools for churches (rabbi trusts, 403b9s) 10:13 – Stewardship and courageous conversations 13:27 – Strongholds around money in ministry 16:40 – Poverty mindset vs. extravagant misconceptions 20:06 – Retrospective compensation studies explained 22:53 – Gabe’s background and calling into this work 25:06 – How Stewarded serves churches and nonprofits 27:00 – Why Ministry Transitions + Stewarded work hand-in-hand 32:29 – Preview of joint webinar Retirement should not punish calling. Visit stewarded.io to schedule a strategy session. Build a clear roadmap with your board using tools like 403(b)(9) plans, rabbi trusts, deferred compensation, and retrospective compensation studies so your pastor can finish with dignity and your church stays strong. If succession or a financial crunch is on the horizon, do not walk it alone. Go to ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call. We help pastors and boards craft integrity-first transition plans that protect people, steward resources, and prepare your church for what’s next.