Bill Simmons thought he was in control - until a child soldier in the Congo held him at gunpoint. In that moment, as the AK-47 clicked into place, Bill realized the terrifying truth: control was an illusion. Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion.  But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous. In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption.  He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything. Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline. Key Takeaways Burnout doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a slow fade, and most leaders don’t see it coming until they’re in crisis. Control is an illusion. Whether it’s holding onto leadership or refusing to step away, the tighter your grip, the heavier the burden. Interruption is a choice - disruption is a consequence. If you don’t make space for rest, your body, mind, or ministry will force the issue. A sabbatical isn’t selfish - it’s survival. Leaders who take time to step away don’t weaken their ministries - they strengthen them. The church must do better. If you're a board member or elder, don’t wait for your pastor to break - give them space to breathe. Chapter Markers [00:10] - Welcome & Bill Simmons’ Story: From Missionary Kid to CEO [03:14] - Held at Gunpoint - What a Child Soldier Taught Me About Control [06:25] - The Burnout Epidemic: Why 8.5/10 Leaders Are Near Collapse [09:55] - The Moment Everything Broke - And Why Bill Took a Sabbatical [14:44] - Shabbat, Ceasing, & The Myth of Rest [19:09] - The Power of Pause, Psalm, and Prayer [24:59] - Leaders Don’t Have to Manufacture Spiritual Life - Just Make Space [28:41] - Interruption vs. Disruption: What Happens When You Ignore the Signs [32:11] - How to Sabbath Without Making It Just Another Task [36:46] - The Way of Interruption - Bill’s Book & Why It Matters Take the First Step Toward Rest The weight of leadership isn’t yours to carry alone. Read Bill Simmons’ book, The Way of Interruption, and learn how to embrace spiritual pause before burnout takes over. Order your copy now: Get the book here Need help navigating a transition? Whether you're stepping away from ministry or trying to find a healthier rhythm, Pastoral Transitions can help. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation.  

Matthew had been hiding a secret for years. A secret that was growing, festering, and slowly creating a wedge in his marriage.  He was a pastor. A leader. A man who thought he had it under control - until he didn’t. Until Joanna asked him the one question he had spent years avoiding. In that moment, everything unraveled. Their marriage. Their ministry. The future they had planned. What do you do when the thing you're struggling with is the very thing you’re called to help others with? When the shame is suffocating, and the voices in your head tell you you're disqualified? In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith open up about betrayal, confession, and the long road to healing. They reveal how their journey nearly cost them everything - and how, through the wreckage, they found a new calling. If you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, or just someone feeling like you've lost your way, this episode is for you. Key Takeaways Secrets don’t stay buried. What you hide will always rise to the surface - usually when you least expect it. Your struggle doesn’t disqualify you. But ignoring it might. Healing is possible - but only if you face the truth. Matthew’s addiction nearly destroyed his marriage, but confession opened the door to redemption. Ministry should not cost you your soul. Leaders are burning out, hiding struggles, and suffering in silence. It’s time for a better way. Chapter Markers [00:10] - Introducing Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith [01:15] - Falling in Love & Stepping into Ministry [02:08] - The Secret That Changed Everything [07:18] - The Moment of Truth: When Joanna Asked the Hard Question [09:15] - Can You Still Be in Ministry After Failing? [14:51] - Pastors in Crisis: Why Leaders Feel Stuck [18:30] - The Weight of Hidden Struggles & The Road to Freedom [21:27] - Creating a Culture Where Leaders Can Heal [26:08] - What Churches Get Wrong About Redemption [29:08] - Finding New Purpose After Ministry Next Steps If you or someone you know is struggling in ministry, you are not alone. There is a way forward. There is life after ministry. Get resources and connect with Matthew & Joanna at https://raabsmithteam.com/free Connect with us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/   Share this episode. Someone needs to hear it.  

What do you do when life shatters around you?  When everything you built - your family, your future, your faith - feels like it’s slipping through your fingers? Bryan Elliott knows suffering intimately.  A tragic accident left his brother in a vegetative state.  Addiction nearly destroyed his daughters.  A brutal murder stole one of them forever.  His businesses collapsed.  His marriages unraveled.  His world should have crushed him. But it didn’t. Instead, Bryan woke up the morning after his daughter's murder with something that made no sense: peace.  Not numbness.  Not denial.  Actual, undeniable peace.  And then, something even crazier - joy. How? This episode of Life After Ministry goes deep into the mystery of suffering, not as something to survive, but as something that transforms.  Bryan doesn’t just talk about enduring pain - he talks about what it means to co-suffer with Christ, to find God in the darkest pit, and to come out on the other side more alive than ever.  If you’ve ever walked through a season where God felt absent - where the wilderness stretched on too long and the heartbreak felt too heavy - this is the episode you need to hear. Because maybe, just maybe, your suffering isn’t the end of the story. Maybe it’s the beginning of something bigger than you ever expected. Key Takeaways Why suffering is not just something to endure, but something God uses to transform us. The kingdom principle of co-suffering with Christ and how it leads to co-glorification. How to recognize God’s presence in the darkest seasons, even when He feels silent. Why suffering is an accelerant in spiritual growth and how it prepares us for what’s next. The role of grief, loss, and pain in shaping our faith and revealing God’s goodness. How Bryan’s story of unimaginable suffering led to an unshakable trust in God’s sovereignty. Chapter Markers 00:10 | Welcome & Bryan’s background 01:15 | A tragic accident that unraveled his family 07:31 | When life keeps taking - divorce, addiction, business collapse 16:23 | The moment Bryan’s daughter was murdered 17:06 | Waking up with peace - and why it didn’t make sense 20:54 | Why suffering is an accelerant, not an obstacle 26:22 | What we’re missing about suffering as believers 33:42 | Encouragement for those walking through suffering 40:51 | How to move forward and trust God in the process   If you’re walking through a season of suffering, you don’t have to navigate it alone.  We’re giving away 14 copies of Bryan’s book, As In Heaven, for free. Be one of the first 14 people to email talk@pastoraltransitions.com, and we’ll send you a copy. Want more resources on navigating life after ministry? Visit PastoralTransitions.com for guides, support, and practical help to walk through this season with clarity and hope. To dive deeper into Bryan's ministry and find more resources on healing, restoration, and kingdom living, visit M46Ministries.com. This is one of the most raw, gut-honest conversations we’ve ever had. Listen now, and let it reshape how you see suffering.  

Episode Summary  The church is supposed to be a place of healing. But what happens when it’s the source of the hurt? Too often, we hear stories of toxic leadership, forced terminations, and broken congregations. And yet, no one wants to talk about it - not in the pulpit, not in the pews. The result? Wounds that never heal, pastors who burn out, and churches stuck in cycles of dysfunction. In this episode, we sit down with Kayleigh Clark from Restor(y)to talk about church trauma, spiritual abuse, and the path toward real healing. This isn’t just theory - it’s real-life ministry, where pain meets restoration. Key Takeaways ✅ Church trauma is real - and it doesn’t just affect congregants. Pastors are hurting, too. ✅ Healing must happen inside the church - we can’t keep looking for solutions outside the body of Christ. ✅ Difficult transitions leave lasting scars - but identifying past wounds is the first step to moving forward. ✅ God’s solution? Shepherds who care for the flock - not just institutions, but people who lead with compassion. Chapter Markers ⏳ [00:00] – Why church trauma isn’t just an individual issue ⏳ [04:30] – The hidden cost of toxic congregations and forced terminations ⏳ [10:15] – Why “revitalization” often fails when trauma is ignored ⏳ [15:40] – What it means to be a trauma-informed pastor ⏳ [24:00] – How Restor(y) is helping churches rewrite their narratives ⏳ [30:10] – Practical steps toward healing, for both pastors and congregations If church hurt has left you wounded, you’re not alone. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader navigating dysfunction, or a congregation longing for restoration, there is hope. 🔹 Learn more about Restor(y)’s work at restorycenter.com 🔹 If you need a safe space to talk, we’re here. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation. 🔹 If you believe in this work, consider donating to help pastors in crisis find healing. The church can be whole again. But it starts with facing the wounds. Let’s walk that road together.

Stepping out of ministry can feel like stepping into a free fall. For Jonathan Carone, leaving his church staff role wasn’t just a career transition—it was a journey of unraveling identity, reconciling relationships, and rediscovering purpose. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Jonathan shares his raw and honest story of being “coached off staff,” the lessons he learned in untangling his vocation from his identity, and how he found his way to thriving outside the walls of the church. Jonathan’s story is one of heartbreak and healing, tension and transformation. Whether you’re wrestling with burnout, navigating a tough transition, or trying to figure out how to use your gifts in a new space, this episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement for the road ahead. Key Takeaways: The emotional toll of juggling multiple ministry roles and unmet expectations. How reconciliation with former leaders brings closure and healing. The difference between calling, identity, and vocation—and why it matters. Practical advice for navigating transitions with honor, grace, and faith. Chapter Markers: 0:00 – Introduction: Meeting Jonathan Carone and his ministry backstory. 5:20 – The toll of split roles: Balancing creative director, communications, and high school ministry. 12:45 – The moment of transition: What it means to be “coached off staff.” 20:10 – Reconciling relationships: Finding healing with former leaders. 28:30 – Identity vs. vocation: Lessons in rediscovering purpose after ministry. 35:50 – Thriving outside the church: Finding new ways to serve and make an impact. 42:15 – Final thoughts: Living boldly for the kingdom beyond vocational ministry. Call to Action: Transitioning out of ministry is hard, but there’s hope and purpose on the other side. Let’s embrace the truth that your calling is bigger than your vocation. For more stories, insights, and encouragement, subscribe to Life After Ministry wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s navigate this journey together!

Episode Summary What if the missing piece to a thriving ministry isn’t more strategy or programs but healthier culture? In this episode of Life After Ministry, we dive deep with Jenni Catron, a renowned culture coach, to uncover the secret sauce behind teams that thrive.  Together, we explore how great leaders don’t leave culture to chance - they build it with clarity and intention. Jenni shares her personal journey from working in the record industry to executive church leadership and why culture became her passion. She opens up about her “aha moment” of realizing how deeply culture shapes our experiences and why neglecting it can derail even the best ministries.  Whether you’re a leader navigating toxic environments or simply trying to build a team that flourishes, this conversation delivers wisdom and practical tools to take your culture to the next level. Key Takeaways Great culture doesn’t happen by accident: It takes a clear vision and deliberate effort. Why leaders often miss the mark: Without clarity, teams are left guessing - and disengaged. Staff transitions matter more than you think: How we say goodbye impacts the whole team’s trust and morale. Culture as stewardship: Healthy staff culture is the foundation for effective ministry. Chapter Markers 0:00 - Welcome and intro to Jenni Catron 3:00 - Jenni’s journey: from music exec to church leader to culture coach 9:00 - What makes or breaks culture? Defining the “how” behind teamwork 18:00 - Conquering resistance: Leading through change with patience and clarity 30:00 - Staff transitions: The culture-shaping moments we often overlook 45:00 - Behind Jenni’s book Culture Matters and what’s next   Are you ready to build a culture that inspires your team and fuels your ministry? Don’t leave it to chance - start taking intentional steps today. Join Jenni Catron and other incredible speakers at the free Culture Matters Summit. Register now at culturemattersummit.com. Explore Jenni’s new book, Culture Matters, and access tools to lead with clarity at get4sight.com/. For more resources on making your staff transitions as graceful as your ministry, visit Pastoral Transitions. Let’s transform how we lead, together.  

Bill Tom, co-founder of Pastoral Transitions, helps pastors identify transferable skills and navigate new career paths. Noe Rivera, a licensed marriage and family therapist, addresses the emotional turmoil faced by ministers during transitions. They discuss the silent suffering many pastors endure and the importance of mental health support, especially post-pandemic. Insights on improving church culture during transitions reveal how communities can foster grace rather than pain, while sharing hopeful stories of new beginnings for struggling leaders.

Why is it that modern churches seem so successful in introducing people to Jesus but struggle to lead them into a life of true transformation? Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship. Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement. In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ. And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups. For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen. Key Points The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ. Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six. The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths. The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation. Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms. Pull Quotes "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus." "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd." "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation." "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love." Chapter Markers 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots Want to Go Deeper? Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance. Website: SoilandRoots.org Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms) Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.  

What Happens When Ministry Ends? What do you do when the life you built for the kingdom - your identity, your mission, your livelihood - gets ripped away without explanation? For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent. In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges. Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering. Key Points From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020. The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated. Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?” Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him. The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess. Pull Quotes "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us." "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like." "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart." "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens." Chapter Markers 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness Want to Go Deeper? Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth. Website: SoilandRoots.org Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms) Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

For more information about the work we do at Pastoral Transitions, visit us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/  To book a confidential call with our team, go to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/talk  Learn more about the great work Wes Gay is doing through StoryBrand by going to: https://www.wesgay.com/  Episode Summary  Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay. In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success. Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry. Key Takeaways Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change. Pull Quotes "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry." "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world." "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact." Chapter Markers [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey. [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding. [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll. [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles. [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership. [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind. [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace. [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy. [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about. [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry. [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation. [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.