

Life After Ministry
Matt & Marilee Davis
Many of us have experienced the sting of losing a job. But there’s something uniquely challenging about leaving a position in full-time vocational ministry. Whether you’re stepping down from a church or leaving a kingdom nonprofit, it’s not as simple as just changing jobs. Suddenly, everything changes. You’re left navigating not just a career transition, but also a profound shift in identity, community, and daily routines. It feels like stepping into an unknown, filled with questions like, ”What’s next? How do I redefine myself outside the ministry? How do I maintain my faith amidst this transition?”
Welcome to the Life After Ministry Podcast. We’ve been there, navigating the complex journey from vocational ministry to a new chapter in our lives. We’ll explore stories of transformation, hear from those who’ve walked this path before, and provide practical strategies to turn your transition into transformation.
Welcome to the Life After Ministry Podcast. We’ve been there, navigating the complex journey from vocational ministry to a new chapter in our lives. We’ll explore stories of transformation, hear from those who’ve walked this path before, and provide practical strategies to turn your transition into transformation.
Episodes
Mentioned books

Sep 30, 2025 • 37min
Why Ministry Leaders Don’t Talk About Retirement (featuring Gabe Pelphrey)
Many pastors find themselves at the end of their ministry career unable to retire - not because they lack calling, but because they lack financial security. Churches often avoid the money conversation, leaving leaders stuck in the pulpit longer than they should be.
In this episode, financial strategist Gabe Pelphrey opens the curtain on why retirement planning for ministry leaders so often gets ignored. He explains the unique challenges pastors face, the role boards must play, and the courageous conversations that make succession possible.
This isn’t just about money - it’s about stewardship, legacy, and ensuring both leaders and churches are prepared for what’s next.
Key Takeaways
Why many pastors cannot financially afford to retire
The board’s role in annual compensation and planning reviews
How rabbi trusts and deferred compensation plans protect leaders and churches
The danger of assuming “God will provide” without planning
Why courageous conversations about money and succession matter
How retrospective compensation studies address past underpayment
Why planning early ensures dignity, security, and peace in transitions
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Welcome & Introductions
01:20 – The hidden financial crisis in pastoral transitions
03:45 – Who holds responsibility: pastor or board?
06:15 – When pastors retire into poverty
08:00 – Unique financial tools for churches (rabbi trusts, 403b9s)
10:13 – Stewardship and courageous conversations
13:27 – Strongholds around money in ministry
16:40 – Poverty mindset vs. extravagant misconceptions
20:06 – Retrospective compensation studies explained
22:53 – Gabe’s background and calling into this work
25:06 – How Stewarded serves churches and nonprofits
27:00 – Why Ministry Transitions + Stewarded work hand-in-hand
32:29 – Preview of joint webinar
Retirement should not punish calling. Visit stewarded.io to schedule a strategy session. Build a clear roadmap with your board using tools like 403(b)(9) plans, rabbi trusts, deferred compensation, and retrospective compensation studies so your pastor can finish with dignity and your church stays strong.
If succession or a financial crunch is on the horizon, do not walk it alone. Go to ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call. We help pastors and boards craft integrity-first transition plans that protect people, steward resources, and prepare your church for what’s next.

Sep 23, 2025 • 41min
How the ECFA Is Redefining Care for Church Leaders (featuring Jake Lapp)
Behind every thriving ministry is a foundation you can’t always see - standards, accountability, and trust. Without them, the most passionate vision can unravel overnight.
In this episode of Life After Ministry, ECFA’s Jake Lapp explains why accountability matters not just for auditors and boards but for pastors, leaders, and anyone entrusted with Kingdom resources.
He shares how ECFA’s standards were designed to serve ministries, not stifle them, and how transparency is one of the clearest ways leaders reflect Christ’s call to integrity.
If you’ve ever wondered whether accountability hinders or helps ministry, Jake’s perspective reframes the conversation. This episode offers a framework for leaders who want to guard the mission, protect their people, and leave behind a legacy of trust.
Key Takeaways
Accountability is not bureaucracy - it’s discipleship.
Transparency builds trust faster than vision statements.
Financial integrity protects both leaders and the people they serve.
ECFA standards are guardrails, not red tape.
Trust is earned in drops but lost in buckets.
Healthy structures create freedom, not restriction.
Integrity in hidden details sustains visible ministry.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Introduction to ECFA and Jake Lapp
02:05 – Why Accountability Matters in Ministry
05:20 – The Role of ECFA Standards
09:45 – How Transparency Builds Trust
13:10 – Common Pitfalls Leaders Face
17:25 – Trust, Integrity, and Long-Term Sustainability
21:40 – Encouragement for Leaders in Transition
Strengthen the foundation you cannot see. Visit ECFA.org to review the Seven Standards, explore practical tools, and begin a clear pathway toward accreditation. Build transparency that protects people, guards the mission, and reflects Christ’s call to integrity.
If a transition is on the horizon, do not carry it alone. Go to MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call and build an integrity-first plan that safeguards your people and purpose. If you’re able, give to make this support possible for another leader.

Sep 16, 2025 • 45min
Why Ministry Needs a Mental Health Strategy (featuring Laura Howe)
What happens when the very act of caring for others leaves you depleted?
Laura Howe, founder of Hope Made Strong, knows firsthand the toll of compassion fatigue. From her own season of burnout came a global movement equipping churches to address mental health with wisdom and grace.
In this conversation, Laura shares her personal journey from exhaustion to renewed purpose. She reminds us that burnout is not a moral failure, but a workplace hazard for anyone serving in caregiving roles.
With honesty and clarity, she explains what resilience truly looks like, how to know when you’ve moved from “yellow” into “red,” and why churches must begin addressing mental health as part of whole-life discipleship.
For leaders in transition, this episode offers a lifeline. You’ll hear not only practical wisdom but also the hope that God redeems what feels wasted.
Whether you’re a pastor, a board member, or someone carrying unseen weight, Laura’s insights offer courage to pause, refuel, and continue faithfully.
Key Takeaways
Burnout and compassion fatigue are hazards of caregiving, not signs of weakness or sin.
Resilience is less about powering through and more about bouncing back.
Ministry leaders must learn to recognize their “zone” on the green-yellow-orange-red scale.
Sustainable care in churches means creating belonging, purpose, and hope - not acting as clinics.
The Church has a unique capacity to support mental health across every stage of life.
Global interest in integrating faith and mental health is rising rapidly.
Hope Made Strong and the Church Mental Health Summit provide free, practical resources.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Introduction to Laura Howe and Hope Made Strong
01:10 – Laura’s Burnout Story and Birth of Hope Made Strong
03:13 – Understanding Compassion Fatigue and Resilience
06:12 – How Do You Know It’s Time for a Change?
09:17 – From Red Zone to Hope Made Strong
12:15 – Sustainability and the Church’s Responsibility
16:04 – Why the Church Must Embrace Mental Health
19:50 – Launching the Church Mental Health Summit
23:25 – Personal Reflection and Final Encouragement
If this episode stirred something in you, take a next step: visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession - or give to help another leader get timely support. Then head to HopeMadeStrong.org to equip your team for sustainable care by registering for the Church Mental Health Summit and accessing practical tools for your church.

Sep 9, 2025 • 48min
Deeply Loved: Why Empathy Is Oxygen for the Soul (featuring Bill & Kristi Gaultiere)
What if the missing piece in your leadership is not more strategy but more empathy?
Bill and Kristi Gaultiere say empathy is oxygen for the soul, and many leaders are gasping without realizing it.
They join Matt to unpack how Jesus models secure attachment with the Father and how we can receive and reflect that love in daily life.
Bill and Kristi name the empathy deserts many of us grew up in, why ministry culture often rewards self-neglect, and how receiving care is not a luxury. It is discipleship.
The conversation lands with the Four A’s of Empathy. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge. Affirm. Practice these, and watch connection and courage return.
If you are ending a role, beginning again, or preparing for a hard meeting, this episode offers biblical wisdom and field-tested tools to do hard things with Jesus’ easy yoke.
Key Takeaways
Empathy is not sentimentality. It is the way love becomes believable and actionable. “We love because He first loved us.”
Many leaders grew up in empathy deserts. Naming this breaks shame and opens us to care.
Jesus models secure attachment with the Father. Presence before performance. Prayer before platform.
The Four A’s of Empathy help in any conversation. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge significance. Affirm strengths.
Receiving empathy enlarges capacity for compassion at home and work.
Empathy transforms hard transitions. It dignifies layoffs, fuels grief work, and softens the ground for forgiveness.
Leaders need safe people and slow practices that rebuild attachment to God and others.
Chapter Markers
00:00 Welcome and name pronunciation fun
01:38 What is Soul Shepherding and the easy yoke of Jesus
04:10 Release day for Deeply Loved and why empathy matters
04:43 Empathy deserts and early stories that shape leaders
07:45 Why Christian leaders struggle to receive love
11:06 Empathy is oxygen for the soul
14:48 “Is empathy soft?” Gender, strength, and honesty
20:38 Attachment, secure bonds, and practical tools
26:30 Theology plus psychology in Deeply Loved
27:03 The Four A’s of Empathy explained
38:22 Empathy in layoffs, burnout, and hard meetings
43:53 Where to find the book and Soul Shepherding retreats
45:08 Close and gratitude
Explore More Resources:
Dive deeper into the themes of this episode by visiting soulshepherding.org/deeplylovedbook for Bill and Kristi Gaultier’s Deeply Loved, and find confidential guidance and support for ministry transitions at ministrytransitions.com.

Sep 2, 2025 • 17min
Reflecting on Season Four: A Journey of Growth
Sixty episodes. More than 70,000 downloads. And countless stories of leaders who’ve walked through suffering, loss, and transition - and discovered God’s faithfulness in the middle of it all.
In this season finale, Matt Davis pauses to look back on the lessons of Season Four.
From transformational suffering to leadership in crisis, from the wilderness of interruption to the challenge of succession planning, these conversations have pointed us toward what truly sustains ministry.
More than just a recap, this is an invitation. An invitation to reflect on what God may be stirring in your own life and to consider how you might come alongside leaders who are navigating the hardest moments of ministry.
Key Takeaways
Every testimony is more than a story - it’s a prayer for God to do it again.
Suffering, when surrendered, can become transformational.
Presence matters more than polish in crisis leadership.
Succession is both organizational and personal - it requires planning on both levels.
The Church’s culture is an operating system, not an event.
Leaders in transition need more than strategy - they need support.
You can be part of multiplying hope for leaders facing transition.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Introduction: Season 4 Wrap-Up
01:00 – Why Testimonies Are Prayers for God to Do It Again
03:15 – Lessons from Guests: Suffering, Succession, Wilderness, and Culture
09:00 – Succession as Both Organizational and Personal
12:00 – Supporting Leaders in Transition: An Appeal
15:00 – Thank You and Looking Ahead to Season 5
Ministry Transitions stands in the gap for pastors and ministry leaders who’ve been let go, burned out, or are simply facing their next step - and they need your help.
Visit ministrytransitions.com to:
Access resources
Sponsor a leader in crisis
Or schedule a conversation to take stock of your next step
You’re not giving to a program - you’re giving to a person with a calling. Let’s walk with leaders through their lowest valleys and help them find hope again.

Aug 26, 2025 • 34min
Starting Scared: Why You're More Ready Than You Think (featuring Holly Tate)
What if waiting until you’re ready keeps you from ever starting?
In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown.
Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck.
Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership.
For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step.
Key Takeaways
Why emotional intelligence often outweighs skills in ministry hiring.
The unique challenges of church staffing versus corporate staffing.
Holly’s hardest transition and what it taught her about calling.
How the Ready Framework moves leaders from chaos to clarity.
Why starting scared is better than never starting at all.
The “Yes Barometer” that keeps teams from being derailed by new ideas.
How transformation requires courage, vulnerability, and faith.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Matt introduces Holly Tate
01:30 – Early leadership influences and church impact
05:30 – Lessons from staffing and hiring in ministry
08:50 – Transition to Leader and lessons from 2020
15:10 – Starting scared: email, podcast, and new ventures
21:00 – The Ready Framework explained
26:45 – Why teams need the Yes Barometer
29:30 – Becoming ready by doing
Next Steps
Learn more resources for ministry transitions at MinistryTransitions.com
Explore Holly’s coaching and clarity framework at TheReadyNetwork.com

Aug 19, 2025 • 36min
Ministry Transitions Nobody Prepares You For (featuring Tim Stevens)
Every ministry transition comes with both a push and a pull. Sometimes you’re drawn toward a new calling. Other times you simply know you can’t stay.
For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings.
In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving.
From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts.
Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions.
Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next.
Key Takeaways
The “push and pull” dynamic is present in every ministry transition.
Identity can become dangerously intertwined with a role - separation is painful but necessary.
Pastors often stay longer than they should due to loyalty, finances, or lack of vision for life after ministry.
Succession planning must start years in advance to avoid crisis moments.
Governance structures that worked for a smaller church may need major revision as the church grows.
Churches rarely have systems in place to care for staff after terminations or transitions.
Healthy endings require intentionality, outside support, and a willingness to let go.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Pickleball, Notre Dame, and the start of the conversation
02:29 – Matt’s transition season and early connection with Tim
03:17 – Tim’s 40 years in ministry and five major transitions
06:55 – Leaving Granger: identity, co-dependence, and the year-long decision
13:06 – Lessons from Vanderbloemen: big vs. small church transitions
15:17 – Leading through crisis at Willow Creek during COVID
18:49 – The birth of Leading Smart and the work Tim does today
24:36 – The state of the American church and Gen Z trends
26:20 – Why pastors aren’t ready for succession - and how to prepare
28:33 – Outplacement and caring well for staff you have to let go
32:21 – How to connect with Tim and Leading Smart
If you’re in a season of transition - or see one on the horizon - visit MinistryTransitions.com to connect, give, or book a confidential call. And explore Tim’s work at LeadingSmart.com for coaching, consulting, and resources your church can put into action right now.

Aug 12, 2025 • 1h 1min
Absolute Best Practices of Nonprofit Boards (featuring Dr. Michael Anthony)
What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart.
In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health.
From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it.
And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose.
Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next.
Key Takeaways
Why lack of proper orientation is one of the most common board failures.
How a “log of motions” can prevent repetitive mistakes and clarify focus.
The three duties of board members: care, loyalty, and obedience.
Why clear role boundaries prevent dysfunction between boards and staff.
Succession planning as a regular board discipline, not a crisis reaction.
The critical role EQ plays in leadership longevity.
How God can use painful transitions for deeper growth and joy.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Welcome & backstory with Dr. Michael Anthony
01:11 – Why this book on nonprofit boards
02:18 – Common causes of board dysfunction
05:24 – The onboarding process done right
07:43 – What’s a “log of motions” and why it matters
09:48 – The three duties of every board member
14:36 – Board size, terms, and rotation
18:04 – How to transition a board member off gracefully
20:36 – When to resign from a board for unity’s sake
24:17 – Role of the board chair & relationship with CEO
31:09 – Using ongoing board training to stay healthy
32:11 – Succession planning without personal attack
34:39 – How boards can handle leadership exits well
38:43 – Accountability, care, and EQ in board leadership
43:54 – What’s at stake if boards are neglected
46:52 – Differences between church and nonprofit boards
49:52 – Growing through painful ministry transitions
57:52 – How to connect with Dr. Anthony
If you’re walking through a ministry transition - or know someone who is - you’re not alone. Connect with us at ministrytransitions.com for coaching, resources, and a path forward. To reach Dr. Michael Anthony directly, email manthony@dts.edu or michael@calibrateglobalconsulting.com.

Aug 5, 2025 • 30min
Positioned for This: Succession, Calling, and the Next Chapter (featuring Ron Henry)
What happens when a leader transitions not just into a new role - but into their calling?
In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling?
Helping leaders find where God wants them next.
This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey.
Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart.
Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday.
If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step.
Key Takeaways
From Music to Ministry: Ron’s career in music and executive search wasn’t random - it was preparation for ministry impact.
The Power of NetWeaving: True connection isn’t just networking - it’s purposeful relationship building.
Great Fit vs. Good Fit: Success isn’t just about skills. Cultural and spiritual alignment make all the difference.
Why Transitions Fail: Fear, pride, and desperation can sabotage a move. Wisdom, patience, and community bring peace.
Succession is Spiritual: Planning for what’s next isn’t just smart - it’s biblical stewardship.
Community Over Ego: Millennials’ community-first mindset gives Ron hope for the church’s future.
Finishing Strong: Leaders must not cling to identity in a title. True legacy comes from passing the torch well.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Welcome + Big Announcement: Ron joins Ministry Transitions as Chief Succession Officer
01:05 – Ron’s Journey: From the music industry to executive search to ministry
02:38 – NetWeaving Defined: The art of connecting people with purpose
03:36 – What Makes a Great Fit?: Beyond resumes - finding calling and chemistry
05:25 – Why Transitions Fail: The danger of pride and panic hires
07:12 – Building vs. Self-Focus: Healthy transitions prioritize relationship
07:59 – Why Now?: Ron’s fourth quarter and finishing strong
09:28 – What CSO Really Means: The responsibility behind the title
10:52 – Where the Church Misses It: Lack of awareness and training in transitions
12:54 – Leaders Who Avoid Succession Planning: Fear, pride, and identity traps
14:19 – Joshua and Moses: Biblical blueprint for succession
15:40 – The Moment Ron Lives For: Seeing someone discover God’s purpose
17:40 – Why Millennials Give Him Hope: Community, transparency, and change
19:51 – Living Water: Why input must be matched with output
21:14 – Mentors + Influencers: The people who poured into Ron
24:38 – To the Board Members: What you're really accountable for
26:44 – How to Reach Ron: Email and conversations that start with coffee
28:00 – Final Words: Linking arms for Kingdom impact
If you’re in ministry and facing a career shift, don’t walk that road alone. Ministry Transitions exists to walk with you - through the letting go and into what’s next. Whether you're a pastor, a board member, or a nonprofit leader, now is the time to steward your transition well.
Visit ministrytransitions.com to access resources, connect with Ron, or schedule a confidential conversation today.

Jul 29, 2025 • 35min
Balancing the Business Brain and the Pastoral Heart (featuring Dave Fletcher)
What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything.
In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church.
They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust.
Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has.
You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred.
It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church.
Key Takeaways
The Business Brain + Pastor’s Heart: Every ministry decision is both relational and organizational. You need both instincts.
Why Fit Matters More Than Failure: Most terminations aren’t about incompetence - they’re about misalignment.
The $300,000 Mistake: Dave breaks down the actual financial cost of a poor staff transition.
Tell the Truth Without Telling Everything: How to communicate firings to staff and congregation without gossip or spin.
Marriage and Ministry: Why laughing, insider jokes, and iced tea matter more than most leadership books.
Give It Away: Why Dave gives away nearly everything on XPastor.org - and what it’s doing for churches worldwide.
Chapter Markers
00:00 – Intro & How Greek (Yes, Greek) Led Dave into Ministry
02:30 – The Wild Ride from Kids Ministry to XP
04:45 – Why the Executive Pastor Role Is All-In
06:30 – Letting People Go with Dignity
08:15 – Calculating the Real Cost of Bad Transitions
12:45 – How to Communicate a Termination (Without Creating a Firestorm)
15:30 – What’s Changed in the Church (Spoiler: Everything)
18:00 – Should Every Pastor Be Bivocational Now?
22:00 – Health, Marriage, and the Art of Insider Jokes
26:00 – Behind the Madness of the XPastor Seminar
28:45 – Fair Salaries and Why They Matter
32:00 – The Goal: Fully Enjoy God
If you’re navigating a leadership transition or just want to do ministry with more clarity, courage, and peace - check out the free resources at ministrytransitions.com. And for coaching, salary tools, or to attend the next XPastor Seminar, visit xpastor.org. It’s the guide you wish you had years ago.