Life After Ministry

What if the missing piece in your leadership is not more strategy but more empathy?  Bill and Kristi Gaultiere say empathy is oxygen for the soul, and many leaders are gasping without realizing it.  They join Matt to unpack how Jesus models secure attachment with the Father and how we can receive and reflect that love in daily life. Bill and Kristi name the empathy deserts many of us grew up in, why ministry culture often rewards self-neglect, and how receiving care is not a luxury. It is discipleship.  The conversation lands with the Four A’s of Empathy. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge. Affirm. Practice these, and watch connection and courage return. If you are ending a role, beginning again, or preparing for a hard meeting, this episode offers biblical wisdom and field-tested tools to do hard things with Jesus’ easy yoke. Key Takeaways Empathy is not sentimentality. It is the way love becomes believable and actionable. “We love because He first loved us.” Many leaders grew up in empathy deserts. Naming this breaks shame and opens us to care. Jesus models secure attachment with the Father. Presence before performance. Prayer before platform. The Four A’s of Empathy help in any conversation. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge significance. Affirm strengths. Receiving empathy enlarges capacity for compassion at home and work. Empathy transforms hard transitions. It dignifies layoffs, fuels grief work, and softens the ground for forgiveness. Leaders need safe people and slow practices that rebuild attachment to God and others. Chapter Markers 00:00 Welcome and name pronunciation fun 01:38 What is Soul Shepherding and the easy yoke of Jesus 04:10 Release day for Deeply Loved and why empathy matters 04:43 Empathy deserts and early stories that shape leaders 07:45 Why Christian leaders struggle to receive love 11:06 Empathy is oxygen for the soul 14:48 “Is empathy soft?” Gender, strength, and honesty 20:38 Attachment, secure bonds, and practical tools 26:30 Theology plus psychology in Deeply Loved 27:03 The Four A’s of Empathy explained 38:22 Empathy in layoffs, burnout, and hard meetings 43:53 Where to find the book and Soul Shepherding retreats 45:08 Close and gratitude Explore More Resources: Dive deeper into the themes of this episode by visiting soulshepherding.org/deeplylovedbook for Bill and Kristi Gaultier’s Deeply Loved, and find confidential guidance and support for ministry transitions at ministrytransitions.com.

Sixty episodes. More than 70,000 downloads. And countless stories of leaders who’ve walked through suffering, loss, and transition - and discovered God’s faithfulness in the middle of it all. In this season finale, Matt Davis pauses to look back on the lessons of Season Four.  From transformational suffering to leadership in crisis, from the wilderness of interruption to the challenge of succession planning, these conversations have pointed us toward what truly sustains ministry. More than just a recap, this is an invitation. An invitation to reflect on what God may be stirring in your own life and to consider how you might come alongside leaders who are navigating the hardest moments of ministry. Key Takeaways Every testimony is more than a story - it’s a prayer for God to do it again. Suffering, when surrendered, can become transformational. Presence matters more than polish in crisis leadership. Succession is both organizational and personal - it requires planning on both levels. The Church’s culture is an operating system, not an event. Leaders in transition need more than strategy - they need support. You can be part of multiplying hope for leaders facing transition. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Introduction: Season 4 Wrap-Up 01:00 – Why Testimonies Are Prayers for God to Do It Again 03:15 – Lessons from Guests: Suffering, Succession, Wilderness, and Culture 09:00 – Succession as Both Organizational and Personal 12:00 – Supporting Leaders in Transition: An Appeal 15:00 – Thank You and Looking Ahead to Season 5 Ministry Transitions stands in the gap for pastors and ministry leaders who’ve been let go, burned out, or are simply facing their next step - and they need your help. Visit ministrytransitions.com to: Access resources Sponsor a leader in crisis Or schedule a conversation to take stock of your next step You’re not giving to a program - you’re giving to a person with a calling. Let’s walk with leaders through their lowest valleys and help them find hope again.

What if waiting until you’re ready keeps you from ever starting?  In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown. Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck.  Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership. For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step. Key Takeaways Why emotional intelligence often outweighs skills in ministry hiring. The unique challenges of church staffing versus corporate staffing. Holly’s hardest transition and what it taught her about calling. How the Ready Framework moves leaders from chaos to clarity. Why starting scared is better than never starting at all. The “Yes Barometer” that keeps teams from being derailed by new ideas. How transformation requires courage, vulnerability, and faith. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Matt introduces Holly Tate 01:30 – Early leadership influences and church impact 05:30 – Lessons from staffing and hiring in ministry 08:50 – Transition to Leader and lessons from 2020 15:10 – Starting scared: email, podcast, and new ventures 21:00 – The Ready Framework explained 26:45 – Why teams need the Yes Barometer 29:30 – Becoming ready by doing Next Steps Learn more resources for ministry transitions at MinistryTransitions.com Explore Holly’s coaching and clarity framework at TheReadyNetwork.com  

Every ministry transition comes with both a push and a pull. Sometimes you’re drawn toward a new calling. Other times you simply know you can’t stay.  For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings. In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving.  From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts. Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions.  Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next. Key Takeaways The “push and pull” dynamic is present in every ministry transition. Identity can become dangerously intertwined with a role - separation is painful but necessary. Pastors often stay longer than they should due to loyalty, finances, or lack of vision for life after ministry. Succession planning must start years in advance to avoid crisis moments. Governance structures that worked for a smaller church may need major revision as the church grows. Churches rarely have systems in place to care for staff after terminations or transitions. Healthy endings require intentionality, outside support, and a willingness to let go. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Pickleball, Notre Dame, and the start of the conversation 02:29 – Matt’s transition season and early connection with Tim 03:17 – Tim’s 40 years in ministry and five major transitions 06:55 – Leaving Granger: identity, co-dependence, and the year-long decision 13:06 – Lessons from Vanderbloemen: big vs. small church transitions 15:17 – Leading through crisis at Willow Creek during COVID 18:49 – The birth of Leading Smart and the work Tim does today 24:36 – The state of the American church and Gen Z trends 26:20 – Why pastors aren’t ready for succession - and how to prepare 28:33 – Outplacement and caring well for staff you have to let go 32:21 – How to connect with Tim and Leading Smart If you’re in a season of transition - or see one on the horizon - visit MinistryTransitions.com to connect, give, or book a confidential call. And explore Tim’s work at LeadingSmart.com for coaching, consulting, and resources your church can put into action right now.

What if the health of your ministry depends more on your board than you think? Dr. Michael Anthony has spent 40 years in boardrooms - as a member, chair, consultant, and C-suite leader - and he’s seen what works and what breaks ministries apart. In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health. From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it. And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose. Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next. Key Takeaways Why lack of proper orientation is one of the most common board failures. How a “log of motions” can prevent repetitive mistakes and clarify focus. The three duties of board members: care, loyalty, and obedience. Why clear role boundaries prevent dysfunction between boards and staff. Succession planning as a regular board discipline, not a crisis reaction. The critical role EQ plays in leadership longevity. How God can use painful transitions for deeper growth and joy. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & backstory with Dr. Michael Anthony 01:11 – Why this book on nonprofit boards 02:18 – Common causes of board dysfunction 05:24 – The onboarding process done right 07:43 – What’s a “log of motions” and why it matters 09:48 – The three duties of every board member 14:36 – Board size, terms, and rotation 18:04 – How to transition a board member off gracefully 20:36 – When to resign from a board for unity’s sake 24:17 – Role of the board chair & relationship with CEO 31:09 – Using ongoing board training to stay healthy 32:11 – Succession planning without personal attack 34:39 – How boards can handle leadership exits well 38:43 – Accountability, care, and EQ in board leadership 43:54 – What’s at stake if boards are neglected 46:52 – Differences between church and nonprofit boards 49:52 – Growing through painful ministry transitions 57:52 – How to connect with Dr. Anthony If you’re walking through a ministry transition - or know someone who is - you’re not alone. Connect with us at ministrytransitions.com for coaching, resources, and a path forward. To reach Dr. Michael Anthony directly, email manthony@dts.edu or michael@calibrateglobalconsulting.com.  

What happens when a leader transitions not just into a new role - but into their calling?  In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling?  Helping leaders find where God wants them next. This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey.  Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart.  Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday. If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step. Key Takeaways From Music to Ministry: Ron’s career in music and executive search wasn’t random - it was preparation for ministry impact. The Power of NetWeaving: True connection isn’t just networking - it’s purposeful relationship building. Great Fit vs. Good Fit: Success isn’t just about skills. Cultural and spiritual alignment make all the difference. Why Transitions Fail: Fear, pride, and desperation can sabotage a move. Wisdom, patience, and community bring peace. Succession is Spiritual: Planning for what’s next isn’t just smart - it’s biblical stewardship. Community Over Ego: Millennials’ community-first mindset gives Ron hope for the church’s future. Finishing Strong: Leaders must not cling to identity in a title. True legacy comes from passing the torch well. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome + Big Announcement: Ron joins Ministry Transitions as Chief Succession Officer 01:05 – Ron’s Journey: From the music industry to executive search to ministry 02:38 – NetWeaving Defined: The art of connecting people with purpose 03:36 – What Makes a Great Fit?: Beyond resumes - finding calling and chemistry 05:25 – Why Transitions Fail: The danger of pride and panic hires 07:12 – Building vs. Self-Focus: Healthy transitions prioritize relationship 07:59 – Why Now?: Ron’s fourth quarter and finishing strong 09:28 – What CSO Really Means: The responsibility behind the title 10:52 – Where the Church Misses It: Lack of awareness and training in transitions 12:54 – Leaders Who Avoid Succession Planning: Fear, pride, and identity traps 14:19 – Joshua and Moses: Biblical blueprint for succession 15:40 – The Moment Ron Lives For: Seeing someone discover God’s purpose 17:40 – Why Millennials Give Him Hope: Community, transparency, and change 19:51 – Living Water: Why input must be matched with output 21:14 – Mentors + Influencers: The people who poured into Ron 24:38 – To the Board Members: What you're really accountable for 26:44 – How to Reach Ron: Email and conversations that start with coffee 28:00 – Final Words: Linking arms for Kingdom impact   If you’re in ministry and facing a career shift, don’t walk that road alone. Ministry Transitions exists to walk with you - through the letting go and into what’s next. Whether you're a pastor, a board member, or a nonprofit leader, now is the time to steward your transition well. Visit ministrytransitions.com to access resources, connect with Ron, or schedule a confidential conversation today.

What do scuba diving, salary spreadsheets, and severance packages have in common? According to David Fletcher - everything.  In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church. They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust.  Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has.  You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred. It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church. Key Takeaways The Business Brain + Pastor’s Heart: Every ministry decision is both relational and organizational. You need both instincts. Why Fit Matters More Than Failure: Most terminations aren’t about incompetence - they’re about misalignment. The $300,000 Mistake: Dave breaks down the actual financial cost of a poor staff transition. Tell the Truth Without Telling Everything: How to communicate firings to staff and congregation without gossip or spin. Marriage and Ministry: Why laughing, insider jokes, and iced tea matter more than most leadership books. Give It Away: Why Dave gives away nearly everything on XPastor.org - and what it’s doing for churches worldwide. Chapter Markers 00:00 – Intro & How Greek (Yes, Greek) Led Dave into Ministry 02:30 – The Wild Ride from Kids Ministry to XP 04:45 – Why the Executive Pastor Role Is All-In 06:30 – Letting People Go with Dignity 08:15 – Calculating the Real Cost of Bad Transitions 12:45 – How to Communicate a Termination (Without Creating a Firestorm) 15:30 – What’s Changed in the Church (Spoiler: Everything) 18:00 – Should Every Pastor Be Bivocational Now? 22:00 – Health, Marriage, and the Art of Insider Jokes 26:00 – Behind the Madness of the XPastor Seminar 28:45 – Fair Salaries and Why They Matter 32:00 – The Goal: Fully Enjoy God If you’re navigating a leadership transition or just want to do ministry with more clarity, courage, and peace - check out the free resources at ministrytransitions.com. And for coaching, salary tools, or to attend the next XPastor Seminar, visit xpastor.org. It’s the guide you wish you had years ago.  

What if the scariest thing about leaving ministry wasn’t the loss of your job - but the loss of your identity?  In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown.  From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace. But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be. If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are. Key Takeaways Why identity is one of the hardest things to untangle when leaving ministry How Josh navigated an unexpected layoff - and why it turned into one of the best days of his life What it looks like to still live out ministry in a secular workplace How to listen well, talk honestly with your spouse, and step into an unknown future with trust The surprising truth about being a present dad (and why the phone isn’t the only distraction) Chapter Markers 00:00 – Josh's journey into ministry and long tenure as executive pastor 04:30 – Lessons from staffing, transitions, and team dynamics 07:25 – When boredom, burnout, and frustration signal it’s time to go 12:00 – Why Josh and his wife stepped away from their home church after resigning 17:00 – A safe landing at a university… and an unexpected layoff 19:30 – The power of a spouse’s words during a pivotal moment 22:50 – From pastor to car wash CMO: how to make sense of an unexpected calling 28:00 – How Josh stays present as a father and what he wants his son to remember 31:00 – Advice for leaders who feel called to step out but don’t know where to start   If you’re wrestling with what’s next after ministry, you don’t have to figure it out alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to find practical support and a team who’s walked this road too. And be sure to follow Josh Taylor on Instagram at @joshtaylor.guide for thoughtful reflections on leadership, fatherhood, and life after ministry.

Alicia Lee didn’t leave ministry. She left Wall Street. After nearly two decades at Goldman Sachs, Alicia was managing a massive trading floor and rubbing shoulders with IPO titans. She loved the fast pace. She was good at it.  And then God pulled the plug. A missed promotion became a divine pivot - and what followed was not a sabbatical, but a startup. In this episode, we dive deep into Alicia’s unlikely journey from investment banking to launching Faithly, a digital ecosystem for ministry leaders - built not to replace community, but to amplify it.  She opens up about her hustle, her heartbreak, and her unshakeable sense of calling. If you’ve ever wrestled with identity in a transition, if you’ve ever been tempted to white-knuckle your way to the next thing, or if you’re still unsure what ministry looks like outside the walls of the church - this conversation will hit home. Alicia’s story isn’t just about leaving a job. It’s about finding your voice when your title disappears. Key Takeaways: God uses closed doors as clear signs to redirect us into new assignments. Your calling may not change - but your context can. You might already be “in ministry” and not even know it. Faithly is filling a gap for pastors and ministry leaders left out of traditional professional networks like LinkedIn. Slow growth is still real growth. There’s value in patient building and prioritizing soul care over speed. Transitions can tempt us to over-identify with productivity, but our identity is not in what we do - it’s in whose we are. Chapter Markers: 00:00 – From Wall Street to the ministry: Alicia’s surprising career shift 03:30 – The promotion that didn’t come - and what God did instead 06:45 – The vision behind Faithly: Why ministry leaders need their own platform 09:50 – Why LinkedIn doesn’t work for ministry - and what makes Faithly different 14:40 – Bringing Wall Street hustle into the startup world 17:00 – Juggling a tech startup and raising three kids 21:00 – Redefining identity after leaving a high-powered career 24:45 – Building slowly: Why Faithly is growing at the speed of trust 30:00 – What’s next for Faithly and how ministry leaders can get involved If you’re a ministry leader in transition, don’t navigate it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com for guidance, coaching, and care to help you land well. And if you're ready to connect with others who get it - people who are walking the same road - join the growing network at faithly.co. It’s not just a platform. It’s your new ministry ecosystem.  

What do you do when ministry success comes at the cost of your soul? In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and co-founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership.  Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling. If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home.  Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go. This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom. Key Takeaways What most leaders miss about the difference between calling and identity Why burnout isn’t always loud - and how to recognize it early The real cost of avoiding your own growth How to lead with clarity when the crowd is gone What “editing your life” looks like in a post-ministry season Chapter Markers 00:00 – Jon’s early ministry story 06:12 – From platform to pressure: the silent drift 14:45 – Burnout and the addiction to being needed 21:08 – Risk, honesty, and what it really means to lead well 29:17 – How Forte walks with leaders in transition 36:30 – Wrestling with faith after leaving ministry 41:40 – Final thoughts: courage over comfort   If you’re facing a leadership shift, you don’t have to do it alone. Start a conversation at ministrytransitions.com. Follow Jon Talbert on LinkedIn Learn more about his work at getforte.com And explore their support for faith leaders at getforte.com/faith