Pioneers and Pathfinders

Today we are joined by David Cunningham, chief innovation officer at Reed Smith and founder of Legal Metrics. David began driving change in the legal industry many years ago—first working with legal professionals as a tech strategy consultant for law firms, drawing on his business background to help clients improve their practices. David went on to become chief information officer at Winston & Strawn, where he created the firm’s strategies and oversaw its innovation efforts. He also founded Legal Metrics, a company that helps legal departments and law firms calculate and benchmark legal operations metrics to ensure excellence in diversity, as well as other business metrics important to legal departments. Today, David is chief innovation officer at Reed Smith, the first person to ever hold this position at the firm. There he has led initiatives such as the Innovation Lab, a program that identifies new ways of delivering legal services—and helps attorneys adopt those practices. In our discussion, David tells us about the lessons he learned as a consultant and how he applies them to his current position, the value of hiring an anthropologist at a law firm, and what excites him about the future of legal tech.

Today's episode takes a break from our usual format. Last week, Steve Poor participated in a webinar hosted by the Association of Corporate Counsel (ACC) Law Department Management Network (LDMN) about the implications of ChatGPT with Khurram Gore of Verizon, and Amy Yeung of Sallie Mae. Khurram has a deep background in technology and innovation, focusing on the intersection of law, technology, and business. At Verizon, he leads legal for their chief product development officer and the technology development organization, including Verizon’s 5G Labs, innovation partnerships, augmented reality and virtual reality business, and emerging tech groups. In addition to other outside activities, Khurram is also the entrepreneur in residence at the Stevens Venture Center for the Stevens Institute of Technology. Amy, who moderated the conversation, is a technology executive and thought leader with extensive experience in disruptive technology, digital innovation, and other strategic initiatives across all company life cycles. She has a track record of success in transformation, technology products counseling and B2B and B2C settings, leading significant operational initiatives strategy, data governance, and data architecture, among other things. In this conversation, we focus on the basics of ChatGPT and its potential impact on the legal industry, as well as the shortcomings of the program. The speakers’ insights give a valuable perspective on the implications of generative AI broadly, as well as ChatGPT in particular. We have edited the conversation for clarity.

Today we speak with Alma Asay, senior director of Practice Innovation and Client Value at Crowell & Moring. Alma’s interest in innovation began while she was a litigator at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher, using technology to improve efficiency for the firm’s clients. Without any experience in the technology industry or as an entrepreneur, she founded Allegory, a cloud-based litigation management platform that delivers services and insights across the entire litigation spectrum. The story of her journey with Allegory is a fascinating one of challenges, successes, and enormous perseverance. In 2017, Integreon bought the company, making Alma the first female founder to have a legal technology business acquired. At Crowell & Moring, Alma has built the firm’s innovation department, where she and her team address technology and legal operations needs. In today’s discussion, Alma talks to us about the lessons she learned in starting a company, the advice she shares with women entrepreneurs, and the impact her traveling experiences have had on her professional life.

Today we are joined by Catherine Alman MacDonagh, a lawyer, entrepreneur, and CEO and founder of the Legal Lean Sigma Institute. Catherine started her legal career as director of corporate marketing for Counsel Connect, a first-of-its-kind social network platform for attorneys. After several roles in marketing and business development at law firms, she founded the Legal Sales and Service Organization, where she developed the Legal Lean Sigma Institute. The Institute was formed out of Catherine’s interest in “harnessing the power of teams.” She believes that change management can help address matters such as DEI, the war for talent, and improving employee and client experiences. Catherine has also founded the Coalition of Professional Services Providers and co-founded Legal Sustainability and Social Impact. Additionally, she is the chief enthusiasm officer and co-founder of The Legal Mocktail, a program that teaches legal professionals the skills of networking through fun simulation exercises. In our discussion, Catherine tells us about how she was introduced to Lean and Six Sigma, how she confronts attorney skepticism toward change management, and what being a chief enthusiasm officer means to her.

Today’s guest is Kunoor Chopra, a true pioneer in the legal industry and vice president of Legal Services at Elevate, a law company providing software and services for the intersection of business and law. A litigator by training at Am Law 50 firms, she made the transition into legal services outsourcing when she founded LawScribe, one of the pioneer alternative legal service providers in the industry. She made the leap to founder in 2004—before the term ALSP was even born. Kunoor’s move from Am Law 50 to founder is not unusual now, but it was unheard of 19 years ago. After selling the company to UnitedLex, she co-founded Elevate with entrepreneur Liam Brown. As a lesbian South Asian woman, Kunoor wanted to create a place where people can bring their authentic selves to work, and she fulfilled this vision by co-founding Elevate. For more than a decade, Elevate’s legal, business, and technology professionals have offered practical ways for global law departments and law firms to improve efficiency, quality, and business outcomes. Additionally, she is a professor at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, focusing on innovation and transformation in legal services delivery. In our conversation, Kunoor tells us about her transition from law to sales, finding acceptance as a diverse attorney, and her thoughts on the future of the legal services industry.

Toby Brown is the CEO and founder of DV8 Legal Strategies and a true pioneer in pricing and project management in the legal industry. Toby got his start in law firm administration, and then became director of the Utah State Bar. His move to head of knowledge management at Fulbright & Jaworski marked the start of his business of law innovation journey, which has since led to a number of roles at Am Law 100 firms building pricing and project management programs. Today, Toby helps legal organizations break from the status quo and develop differentiated and sustainable strategies in lateral partner hiring, pricing, and legal project management. Toby is a respected speaker on topics such as legal management, marketing, and technology. He also founded the Standards Advancement for the Legal Industry, and was co-founder of the 3 Geeks and a Law Blog. In our conversation, we discuss Toby's professional journey and how it led to legal project management, the need for standards in the profession, what drives him to bring people together in the industry, and his new venture at DV8 Legal Strategies.

Today's guest is Dr. Sonja Ebron, a PhD of electrical engineering and an entrepreneur with a background in AI. She co-founded Courtroom5 with her wife, Dr. Debra Slone, PhD, a former librarian, school professor, and qualitative data and analysis expert. Motivated by their own difficult experiences navigating the judicial system, they decided to help others in similar situations. Courtroom5 provides people with the tools, resources, and workshops needed to help them settle civil cases, with or without a lawyer to accompany them. Through the resources they provide, people of all classes can learn and understand the legal process without being shut out. Courtroom5 won first place at the Duke Law Tech Lab Demo Day in 2019 and since then, has continued to grow. In 2022, Courtroom5 partnered with Fastcase to provide limited scope access to lawyers who use Fastcase, and to select individual elements of cases where they can provide the most help. It was a fascinating conversation with Dr. Ebron, covering everything from her personal journey to her experience as a serial entrepreneur, and how her training as an engineer influences her approach to the development of Courtroom5. Dr. Ebron is also the host of a podcast called Who Wrote That Up For You?, so we talked shop about the ins and outs of podcast life. Dr. Ebron is a fabulous example of the incredibly important role allied professionals can play in driving change in the profession.

To close out this year, we are delighted to welcome back an old friend, Jae Um. Jae is one of the most sought-after strategy executives in the legal industry. She is the founder and executive director of Six Parsecs, an insights firm for the legal vertical. In addition to strategic consulting for law firm leadership, Jae serves on advisory boards for emerging legal tech companies, including LegalMation, Datana, and LexFusion. Jae got her start in Big Law at Seyfarth, where she served in a progression of high-impact roles in client service innovation and strategic growth. She then went on to serve as director of pricing strategy for Baker McKenzie worldwide. She is a contributing author to Legal Evolution, The American Lawyer, and other publications covering the legal industry. In her spare time, Jae has created a series called Lawyering at Scale on Luminate+. Her work is consistently brilliant. Jae was one of our first guests on the podcast when we launched in 2021, and we are thrilled to have her back for a fascinating conversation about her life on the road, the role of empathy in her consulting practice, the cultural commonalities of the most successful law firms, and how she sees the landscape for the profession unfolding in 2023.

We have had numerous guests on the podcast focused on legal tech, but in today’s conversation, we talk about practical governance strategies for AI and other frontier technologies with Karen Silverman, the CEO and founder of The Cantellus Group. Karen advises Fortune 50 companies, startups, consortia, and governments on how to govern cutting-edge technologies in a rapidly changing policy environment. Her expertise is informed by more than 20 years of practice and management leadership at Latham & Watkins LLP, where she advised global businesses in complex antitrust matters, M&A, governance, ESG, and crisis management. Karen is a leading voice in the governance of AI and other frontier technologies. She is a regular speaker at conferences and forums, and her thoughts on the governance oversight and real-world applications of AR, AI, VR, and other nascent technologies have been featured in numerous journals and publications. Most recently, Karen launched a series on Luminate+, a streaming platform for cutting-edge legal content featuring the most respected thought leaders of the profession. Karen’s series, “Where Lawyers Meet Tech and Tech Meets the Law,” is about how new technologies affect the substance and practice of law, and what all lawyers need to know in order to be effective counselors. In our conversation, we talk about how Karen developed her level of expertise in business and legal issues around frontier technologies. We also discuss what The Cantellus Group does and the type of companies they work with, together with her views on the knock-on effects of machine learning on the culture of the practice. And of course, we talk about the changes necessary in the regulatory framework to keep up with the speed of change in technology.

Today's guest is Haley Altman. She is a corporate attorney, founder, and a friend to many of us in the legal technology innovation space. Haley has had a fascinating career, where she moved from attorney for buyers and sellers, to founding and selling her own company, and eventually landing on the buy side with Litera. She began her career in Big Law, first as an associate and then partner, moving into entrepreneurship as the founder of Doxly, Inc., which was acquired by Litera. There she took on the role of global head of corporate development, and eventually led 10 acquisitions in a time span of less than two years. Most recently, Haley has shifted to a strategic advisor consulting role at Litera, where she continues to support the leadership team and their M&A and product strategy. In our conversation, we talk about why Haley jumped from equity partner to founder, and the support she got from her firm and the venture studio High Alpha. We also discuss why she turned her focus to the talent side of the legal industry, and how she is addressing burnout and career progression—both for herself and for others in the profession.