The Inequality Podcast

In the United States, meritocracy looms large. Proponents argue that one should earn wealth and prestige through hard work, intelligence, and ability. However, any defender of meritocracy should contend with its shortcomings. Lauren Rivera is the Peter G. Peterson Chair in Corporate Ethics at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School, and the author of Pedigree: How Elite Students Get Elite Jobs, a book-length study of hiring practices at elite banks, law firms, and consulting companies. What she documents are processes that often fail to reward the most deserving candidates and perpetuate existing privileges.In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Rivera lays out the case against meritocracy as it is currently understood, citing her work in Pedigree as well as other research that shows supposedly meritocratic systems failing women, racial minorities, and people with disabilities.

Thousands of years before the modern era, great thinkers were theorizing about economic inequality. Unequal conditions were a focus of both Plato and Jesus, just as it was for later thinkers like Hobbes, Rousseau and Marx.David Lay Williams is a professor of political science at DePaul University. His new book, “The Greatest of All Plagues: How Economic Inequality Shaped Political Thought from Plato to Marx,” traces some 2,500 years of intellectual history about inequality, drawing surprising new lessons from some of the foremost figures in the Western canon. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Williams discusses his findings and what we can still learn from these world-historic thinkers.

As this podcast has highlighted before, cross-disciplinary collaboration can enrich practically any investigation into the nature of inequality. It is hard to find more compelling evidence of this than recent breakthroughs in the study of wealth inequality.Today on the show, we speak to two experts who have made fundamental contributions to this literature, in part by drawing on physics, math, and even Renaissance-era history.Our first guest is Alberto Bisin. Alberto is a professor of economics at New York University. He joins host Steven Durlauf to discuss how models of wealth inequality have evolved over time, as well as how recent models have successfully incorporated tools from the physics literature.Expanding on those insights from physicists, in our second segment, Steven speaks with Jean-Philippe Bouchaud. A physicist and mathematician by training, Jean-Philippe has long been a pioneer of “econophysics,” and his work consistently reveals novel, eye-opening ways economists can supplement their work using physics and math.

College athletics has tumbled into an unpredictable era. Money paid to players for their name, image and likeness has shaken long-held assumptions about what it means to be a college athlete. But although NIL deals have kicked off a new era in college sports, the tensions and conflicts involved are nothing new — nor are they unique to college athletics.Today on the show, we present a conversation that places the debate around paying college athletes into a broader context, drawing on the work of our esteemed panelists. The discussion, which was recorded live on stage earlier this year, features sports analyst Bomani Jones; Princeton Professor of Economics and Stone Center Affiliate Ilyana Kuziemko; Booth Professor of Economics Matthew J. Notowidigdo; and Professor Emeritus at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania Kenneth L. Shropshire. Damon Jones, Stone Center Associate Director and one of our show’s co-hosts, moderates the panel.

One of the most pernicious drivers of inequality in the United States over the past half century has been mass incarceration. Moreover, the consequences of mass incarceration have been borne not just by those held in prisons, but by their families and communities as well.First, Harvard sociologist Christopher Muller traces the historical roots of mass incarceration. He illuminates the close association between incarceration rates and the demand for labor, a relationship that has persisted from the 19th century American South down through the present day.Then, Duke sociologist Hedy Lee discusses her work on the oft-overlooked effects of mass incarceration on the families of incarcerated people. From the mental toll on spouses and children, to the nickel-and-diming of prison commissaries, the conversation catalogs a wide array of unexpected costs brought on by mass imprisonment.

Inequality is rarely static. It can grow or shrink over time. Perhaps no one understands that dynamic better than economist Bhash Mazumder, whose work has been foundational in understanding and measuring intergenerational mobility.In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Bhash recounts how his research revealed a clearer picture of income mobility in the United States: namely, how previous estimates of mobility were far too rosy. Throughout their discussion, measurement issues abound. They consider typical metrics such as income and wealth, but also less obvious approaches, including surveys of physical and mental health. Last, they discuss how mobility has been shaped by two major events in American history: first, redlining policies that began during the New Deal, and second, urban renewal projects that were sparked by the Great Migration.

Conversations about inequality tend to center on macro-level forces, such as political, economic, and social systems. But today on the show, we present two conversations that examine factors that unfold on a smaller scale: inside people’s everyday domains.In our first segment, host Steven Durlauf interviews fellow host Ariel Kalil, a developmental psychologist at the University of Chicago, about her work on family structure and the ways it can influence inequality. They drill down on the roles extended family members like grandparents play in raising children, how growing up with a single parent appears to have a more pronounced effect on boys, and how economic scarcity can hamper parents’ ability to give attention to their children.After that, Ariel and Steven speak with Mesmin Destin, a developmental psychologist at Northwestern. Drawing on research into identify formation, including the damaging effects of stereotype threat, Mesmin’s work explores identity-based motivation. The group considers various applications of this concept and how it may help alleviate inequality, including interventions that can help young people develop positive beliefs that are specific to their background and the benefits peer-to-peer mentorship programs.

Neighborhoods and schools—through factors like socioeconomic composition, access to resources, racial segregation, and social networks—contribute to patterns of inequality and influence mobility. Today’s guests provide cross-disciplinary insights into how these environments shape opportunities and outcomes.First, host Steven Durlauf speaks with the University of Wisconsin’s Felix Elwert, UC Berkeley’s David Harding, and the Stone Center’s own Geoffrey Wodtke on their research, which investigates neighborhood effects and how they manifest throughout economic and social systems, with a spotlight on segregation in schools.Their discussion is followed by a conversation with Columbia University’s Marissa Thompson, who studies education’s role in shaping inequality. She shares her findings with hosts Geoffrey Wodtke and Damon Jones on how parents form their perceptions of neighborhood schools, how those perceptions can drive segregation, and what policy interventions might make a difference.Read the 2011 study authored by Geoff, Felix and David, “Neighborhood Effects in Temporal Perspective: The Impact of Long-Term Exposure to Concentrated Disadvantage on High School Graduation.”Read Marissa’s 2023 study of parental perceptions of school segregation, “My School District Isn’t Segregated: Experimental Evidence on the Effect of Information on Parental Preferences Regarding School Segregation.”Learn more about the Stone Center at our website.

On this episode of The Inequality Podcast, host Steven Durlauf is joined by Janet Gornick, director of the Stone Center of Socio-Economic Inequality at The City University of New York and one of the world’s foremost experts on the measurement of socio-economic inequality. They discuss her many contributions to improving the quantity and quality of inequality data available to researchers, including her time as director of LIS, the organization formerly known as the Luxembourg Income Study. The importance of data-gathering efforts like LIS remains front and center as the conversation progresses into a discussion of gender inequality and differences in family structures across countries. Last, the two reflect on the importance of an interdisciplinary approach to social science research and consider what questions new scholars should pursue in the future.Read a selection of Janet’s work here, and follow her on Twitter/X.Explore the LIS Database here.Read more about The Stone Center at CUNY, which houses the U.S. office of LIS, at their website.

In the first episode of the new academic year, Steven sits down with Miles Corak to discuss cross-country comparisons of inequality and intergenerational mobility. They discuss the Great Gatsby Curve, the mechanisms behind the intergenerational persistence of socioeconomic status, and related innovations in economic research and policy in the U.S. and Canada.Read Miles’ blog post about the Gatsby curve here.