Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee

“I’ve continued to see large investors, both on the individual side [and] on the institutional side, continue to rotate their portfolios into fixed income,” said Wayne Dahl, co-portfolio manager of global credit and global credit investment grade strategies at Oaktree Capital Management, on the latest edition of the ‘Credit Exchange’ podcast with Lisa Lee.Economic growth will slow, forecast Dahl, noting the challenges from tariffs and their impact on inflation, consumer sentiment, and the job market.“We have to be eyes-wide-open to the fact that maybe some of those real positive factors in the first half might not have the same impact in the second half of the year,” he observed.But that’s a good environment for credit. Despite credit spreads being near their tights, the sub-investment grade segment remains at a pretty attractive level, Dahl said. Investors can earn in the sub-investment grade credit space what some people would consider almost equity-like returns, but with less risk and less volatility.High yield bonds, leveraged loans, structured credit such as CLOs, CMBS, RMBS – all these earn above seven percent. “And that’s a pretty good-trade-off for portfolios, to lock in that coupon, [to] be able to de-risk your portfolio, [and] still meet your objectives,” Dahl said.That being said, Dahl cautioned there is stress building, pointing particularly to leveraged loans. “I think, as an active manager, that’s something you’re keenly aware of,” he said.

“We've done our first trades and some of the first trades in the industry in investment grade private,” says Matt Eagan, who heads the full discretion team at Loomis Sayles and oversees USD 80bn of AUM, on the latest edition of the Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.Eagan, who sits on the asset manager’s board of directors, likens investing nowadays to Ozzy Osbourne’s song Crazy Train. Structural changes including the ageing of the workforce, the heightened need for security, and the growing US fiscal debt are inflationary factors, and should change how one conceptualises investing, says Eagan.Credit is a good investment right now, Eagan notes. However, rather than looking at spreads, which are currently tight, Eagan advises focusing on the risk premium.“People remember episodes where credit has been very tumultuous because that’s where the excesses were,” he says. “Today, they’re not there. The private credit market has derisked the public sector. The private credit market is a behemoth that’s almost become the mirror image of the public markets.”Private credit will evolve including a huge portion of the market becoming more liquid. Loomis has bought private investment grade credit in the secondary market. It has also co-mingled private credit into its public portfolios, including mutual funds. “We’re not the only one doing this,” he says.“I think investment grade privates will be one of the biggest ones that'll get to this point, where you’ll see much more secondary market activity.”

“We know there’s a big pan-European need for financing,” says Mathew Cestar, president of Arini, one of the fastest growing alternative credit managers, on the latest edition of the Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.Cestar, who has more than 25 years of experience in European credit markets and once headed a major investment bank, details the evolution of capital markets in the region, from high-yield bonds to leveraged loans and now, private credit.“European companies have never really had a love affair with public capital markets, largely in the sense that they are cookie-cutter and often volatile. Many of these companies, particularly at the mid-size [level], tend to be family owned, multi-generational, and private – they require something much more bespoke, relationship-driven and meaningful,” he says.Via lending to the ‘real economy’, Cestar sees a significant opportunity across various sectors in Europe to go beyond lending to companies owned by private equity shops. And he discusses the recently-announced partnership Arini inked with Lazard – the first private credit and bank partnership of scale in Europe.“As global pressures apply, we’re seeing not just M&A activity rise, but essentially the streamlining and reshoring of European businesses, and so there’s ample opportunity for capital investment to facilitate that,” notes Cestar.

Stephen Ketchum, Founder and CEO of Sound Point Capital Management, shares insights on navigating the evolving U.S. economy. He discusses the shift from manufacturing to a service-oriented landscape and how it influences recession fears. Ketchum emphasizes the importance of underwriting resilient companies in the face of geopolitical risks and tariffs. He also highlights the transformative role of AI in enhancing investment strategies, reflecting on his firm’s impressive growth from $35 million to $45 billion in assets under management.

While private credit broadly has showcased resilience and strength, “under the surface, not everything is as rosy,” according to James Reynolds, global co-head of private credit at Goldman Sachs. Reynolds spoke with Lisa Lee, managing director at Creditflux and editor-at-large at Debtwire, at this year’s Debtwire Private Credit Forum Europe in London on 17 June.Goldman has started tracking the debt-to-equity swaps in the industry because LPs around the world wanted to know what is really happening. Since 2017, the European direct lending market has seen around 120 debt-to-equity swaps across the industry – and interestingly, around half that number have occurred in the last two years.They tend to impact deals involving smaller companies from 2017, 2018 and 2019, and in more cyclical sectors such as consumer, retail and discretionary, Reynolds noted.That is resulting in real bifurcation in European direct lending. “You are going to start seeing dispersion in performance – it’s happening,” he said. “The question now that LPs should be asking is: what are the capabilities of direct lenders to go and own these businesses? It’s a different job than lending to a business.”Certain teams are going to come under pressure and there’s going to be more consolidation in the industry – indeed, it is already occurring. The landscape in direct lending in ten years’ time is going to look very different to today, with, in all likelihood, fewer, larger players, Reynolds said.

In this lively discussion, Alex Batchvarov from Bank of America shares insights on the irreversible trends reshaping capital flows, pointing to a shift in European credit appeal. Young Choi of King Street highlights the changing investor preference towards Europe despite previous concerns. Alex Leonard from Blackstone notes the influx of global investors into European markets, while Andrew Lennox of Federated Hermes emphasizes the resilience of ABS and CLOs amidst market volatility. Together, they contemplate the promising future of structured credit in Europe.

In this enlightening discussion, Matt Theodorakis, co-head of European direct lending at Ares and a seasoned expert in private credit and M&A markets, shares insights on the normalizing M&A landscape. He highlights increased investor confidence and anticipated deal-making activity. Theodorakis also explores the transformative impact of artificial intelligence on risk management in finance, asserting that leveraging AI could revolutionize decision-making within lending. He emphasizes the promising growth trajectory in European direct lending amidst a shifting economic environment.

Investors aren’t being paid enough a premium for the risks in US corporate credit, said Bryan Whalen, chief investment officer of fixed income at TCW, on the latest ‘Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee’ podcast.Whalen, who oversees USD 180bn in fixed income assets, contends investment-grade corporate credit spreads should be paying 50% more than they are. Investors should be getting 120 basis points of spread for IG bonds, but today they are getting paid close to 80bps, Whalen said.During the April volatility, there was a repricing of credit risk, but it didn’t lasted long enough to call the markets broken. But markets aren’t out of the woods, and it’s on the list of possibilities this year, according to Whalen. There are a lot of things that could cause volatility and if the Federal Reserve seems reluctant to rush to rescue markets, “you might actually see the market is broken because of the lack of liquidity,” Whalen said. “And it will stay broken, and that will magnify the downturn.”While Whalen likes being underweight corporate credit, he sees attractiveness in parts of the securitised market – mortgage-backed securities in particular, because some buyers that have traditionally been in the space have temporarily pulled back. Moreover, while Whalen doesn’t like US high yield bonds, he does like some high yield bonds in emerging markets. Asia has the potential to outperform relative to the rest of the world. On European growth prospects, markets may have gotten a little ahead of themselves on the narrative of a fiscal spending boost, and taken a pause on the approach of what Whalen describes, tongue-in-cheek, the “exporting of exceptionalism.” Still, there are some good opportunities in euro-denominated investment-grade corporate bonds, where investors get paid a decent amount of additional spread for the same company in a euro currency versus US dollars, he noted.

“Look at credit markets, they behaved quite differently this time,” said Eddie O’Neill, co-head of global liquid credit at KKR, about the period of volatility that whipped global financial markets in April. “They were very stable.”When equity markets were volatile, credit markets did see some selling off but in a very orderly repricing of risk. There was “no blood in the streets, no sustained buying opportunities,” O’Neill told host Lisa Lee at the Creditflux CLO Symposium 2025 in London. That there were three reasons: 1) the nature of the shock, which is policy driven, would take time to play out and the end result of it is still fairly unknown; 2) credit markets have matured in the last five years with new pools of capital becoming more significant; 3) the markets have been starved of assets and been technically driven through 2024 and 2025 with money on the sidelines waiting to step in.The European credit markets are more stable than the US, contended O’Neill. There is no significant ETF buyer base in Europe, the fundamental health of European corporates is pretty good, and Europeans have had the political realization that they need to turn things around. It's not without risk as maintaining political cohesion in Europe is difficult. Europe still has an Achilles' heel---energy costs and demographic will be a challenge. KKR is generally more bullish on Asia, said O’Neill. Despite the tensions between the US and China and slowdowns in the Chinese property market, Asia has the potential to continue to be a big driver of global growth. Asian credit will become a very big market over the next number of years, and investors should be looking at the region, he said. In particular, the investment grade credit market in Asia currently delivers significantly greater returns with lower defaults and loss rates compared to the US investment grade market.

People fail to give the private equity funds the credit they deserve, said Susan Kasser, head of Neuberger Berman Private Debt, on the latest ‘Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee’ podcast.Whilst in terms of investment opportunities, it has been a less productive start to the year, private equity funds have found interesting investment opportunities. Neuberger Berman has already committed to financing a number of new leveraged buyouts this year. There are a surprising number of companies that appear to be quite insulated from tariff exposure and are pretty recession-resilient as well – to a much greater degree than might have been expected, Kasser said.The beauty of a portfolio of privately-held, privately-negotiated, untraded loans is that concerns, volatility and market sentiment don’t really affect the loans, Kasser told Lisa Lee, managing editor of Creditflux. Rather, the only thing that does impact the loans is the fundamental performance of the companies being lent to. “That will take some time to figure out, but it looks like all should be well,” Kasser said.Kasser noted that an element of the underwriting that people miss is the importance of the private equity sponsor. They have three advantages in fixing a problem. These encompass control (they can make any change they want to), time (they don’t have to exit at any point in time), and capital (they have capital to support existing investments). A lot of problems, including things like recessions, tariffs, inflation, supply chain issues, and higher interest rates, are, to some extent, temporary and fixable, Kasser said.Neuberger Berman passes on many financing deals, even those that may look like good opportunities. “You just need to decide which way you want to err. And we have consistently decided we want to err on [the side of] capital preservation, margin of safety, zero mistakes for the investors,” Kasser said.