Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee

“Underneath is a lot of volatility. Companies are struggling. You’re seeing really wide dispersion,” says Greg Peters, co-chief investment officer at PGIM Fixed Income, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee. Companies, both public and private, are defaulting at a higher rate than you would expect given the macro backdrop.Investors have been too quick to dismiss the possibility of a return in inflation. Peters pegs the probability of the US economy overheating at 25%, and higher than the probability of a recession. The US has fiscal stimulus coming through, likely a more easy Fed, and together with deregulation and some other factors, there’s the real risk of overheating next year, he says. He adds there’s also a 10% probability of a productivity boost from AI.Markets are also struggling with the near-term effects versus the long-term, Peters notes. The case of France is what happens to a sovereign that’s overindebted, where the political system is called into question. “This is very much a canary in a coal mine,” he says.

“It’s a huge differentiator” to have dedicated and experienced personnel to deal with struggling borrowers, says Tim Lyne, CEO of private credit specialist Antares Capital, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee. Recent entrants, funds raised in the past five years, often do not.On the M&A front, Lyne doesn’t expect to see a great volume of M&A transactions this year, or indeed in the first quarter of next year. That’s because Antares’ volume on the new business side is average: “if it was going to be great, we would be seeing some of those deals come in the shop already,” he says.Private credit could have financed the $20bn of debt for Electronic Arts, but it would have been a stretch. But that will not necessarily be true for much longer, he observes. “If I fast-forward 3-5 years from now, I think $20[bn] will not be challenging.”There are also too many players, Lyne says, which is compressing fees. With more than $85bn in AUM, Antares has scale, and Lyne says the biggest private credit lenders will continue to get bigger. But for the players in the industry that are not of scale, “it’s going to be incredibly challenging for them to continue to grow over the next five years.”

“Existing investors are probably too long the dollar. They enjoy a very good ride. Valuations are expensive. It makes sense to take profit,” says Grégoire Pesques, CIO, global fixed income at Europe’s largest asset manager Amundi, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.The US, UK, many Eurozone countries, Japan – all have been spending profusely, causing deficits to be a big issue almost everywhere. Describing the fiscal and macro landscape, Pesques details where Amundi, with €2.2 trillion in AUM, is investing. He is buying UK Gilts because the market hasn’t priced in the possibility that growth may slow, and the Bank of England then cuts interest rates.Germany is prepared to turn on the fiscal spending taps, yet will stay one of the safest countries in terms of debt-to-GDP ratios. “There will be a premium for the government that keeps some sort of orthodoxy and has a very strong balance sheet,” says Pesques. There are also pockets of emerging markets that are great investments right now, he adds.There is a big need for diversification away from the dollar and away from Treasuries. But it will take “ages”, he notes, and the rebalancing will be progressive.“It’s always better for a risk-adjusted return to have more diversification in your portfolio,” says Pesques.

“Long-term, I think the game is over from a buyout perspective. I think private capital has won that game,” says Randy Schwimmer, vice-chairman and chief investment strategist at Churchill Asset Management, a leading middle market financing and investment firm with $55 billion in AUM.In the latest episode of the Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee, Schwimmer notes 90% of the leveraged buyouts completed this year were financing by private credit in the traditional middle market space. As for the large-cap deals, the bigger loans that can be multi-billions of dollars in size – while there, too, the majority of LBOs were done by private credit firms, banks have found a way to stay relevant by undertaking refinancings and repricings. Banks also still have significant market share in straight corporate lending and for certain specialist sectors.“It’s a healthy ecosystem right now, where everybody is playing a role,” Schwimmer says.Speaking to banks’ aspirations to create a secondary trading market for private credit loans, that will be difficult, especially in the middle market, Schwimmer predicts. He adds that many have tried. “Illiquidity will still mean something in the traditional middle market,” he says.

“One interesting canary in the coal mine that has not been materially recognised, is the health of the consumer,” says Dan Zwirn, CEO, CIO and co-founder of Arena Investors, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee.Zwirn has observed delinquencies in unsecured obligations increase materially, as well as stress in areas like the sub-prime auto market. Original issue consumer lenders are selling off ‘charge-off paper’, which is distressed unsecured debt, at material and elevated amounts.Financial assets are providing the proper signals and indicating trouble in the economy, he says.“What we have seen since the GFC is that the innovation around the thwarting of price discovery has never been more rampant,” he said. “An example of how that touches the consumer is BNPL (buy now, pay later), where certain types of buying don’t necessarily hit consumer credit scores.”But policymakers do have a lot of tools in the toolkit to delay problems, which can stave off a traditional economic crisis. As a result, barring any extraordinary geopolitical events, the market is instead likely to experience a “slow grinding decline,” similar to what Japan experienced with its struggling economy.

“Volatility is now certain. Before, we feared chaos because no-one knew what was coming. Now, it’s priced in” – Alan Schrager, senior partner at Oak Hill Advisors, in the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee.Focus on Treasury markets, advises Schrager. “As a professional investor, what we look at are actually the Treasury markets. They’re sending this signal that there’s this risk inherent,” he says, speaking to the recent rise in long-term sovereign yields of developed countries. “You always think of the risk premium of the US Treasury to be zero. And now that's really what's changed is that there is a risk premium in there.”Schrager also discusses how market volatility, macro risk, and private credit are shaping today’s investment landscape. He sees opportunity in stable companies with stressed balance sheets and notes that private credit spreads have held firm while public markets have tightened.Oak Hill Advisors, which has nearly $100 billion in AUM focused on sub-investment grade corporate debt, is now focusing on trying to provide capital, in either restructuring or refinancing transactions that take decent companies with bad balance sheets and reorganise them.

The likelihood of a September rate cut has edged higher. “They will move ahead with that,” predicts Brad Rogoff, head of global research at Barclays, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.He adds, however, that the market “does need to get used to lower job numbers,” citing what’s currently taking place with immigration and fewer people coming into the workforce. “Just to have a healthy job market, we're not going to have the same job gains as we had.”Rogoff expects inflation to be above the Fed’s target for the back half of this year and into 2026. Chances for a recession in the near term are low, but over a longer time period, perhaps the next two years, the risks are definitely increasing.Fiscal spending will provide some stability as a counterpoint. The yield curve could steepen further and less so than if the US Treasury was issuing in a different way, or if questions around Federal Reserve independence become even more acute.Meanwhile, in Asia, China is going to be a big focus for the rest of the year. “We’ll probably see some stimulative effects implemented in China, but I’m not convinced that there's any bazooka coming,” Rogoff observes. “If we see growth continue to lag in China, that’s probably got to be your biggest focus at this point in Asia.”But a slowing economy is still a positive backdrop for credit and spreads should be tightening, though perhaps not to the degree they have. While Rogoff worries a little bit about the complacency in the market, when he looks down the credit spectrum, markets are proving leery of riskier assets, such as those rated triple C. “It hasn’t necessarily been the rising tide lifting all boats,” he points out.

“We’ve been increasing our exposure to prime office,” says Michael Buchanan, chief investment officer at Western Asset, a fixed income specialist owned by Franklin Templeton, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.New York office property, especially the higher end, is doing very well, Buchanan observes. Also attractive are hotels, lodging, offices, multi-family accommodation and warehouses.Buchanan predicts a record year for commercial mortgage-backed securities (CMBS). “That’s really where our dollars that we have to allocate are going right now. And we probably have one of our highest exposures that we’ve had to CMBS in quite a long time.”On the macro front, Buchanan’s base case is for a temporary pickup in inflation due to tariffs, which will then revert to trending toward – though perhaps not hitting – the 2% target set by the Federal Reserve. The question is really about who will pay for tariffs – and it’s not clear exactly how that will play out.“Watching margins will give us a really good indication if the importers are paying for those tariffs,” Buchanan notes.Western Asset, which has nearly USD 200bn in assets under management, has been trimming their exposure to investment-grade and high-yield credit, due to valuation concerns. There’s still the likelihood of seeing some elevated volatility that will result in some spreads pushing wider. When that happens, it will give Western Asset a better entry point for adding some of that exposure back, Buchanan says.

“From what I could see in our proprietary data, we are seeing a bit of a slowdown,” says Lauren Basmadjian, head of liquid credit at Carlyle, a powerhouse with USD 199bn in credit assets under management, in the latest ‘Credit Exchange’ podcast with Lisa Lee.It's early days, with only about 10% of the portfolio companies that Carlyle lends to having reported thus far. Cautioning that it’s not fulsome data, Basmadjian says that companies are reporting low-single-digit growth in the second quarter, down from mid-single-digit growth in the first. And it’s happening in both the US and Europe.When investing, be conservative right now, advises Basmadjian. For example, leveraged loan spreads have fallen to remarkably low levels, with some at tights not really seen before the Great Financial Crisis. Between the two markets, the European loan market offers better value, she believes.“When I look at the loan portfolios that we could put together in Europe versus the US, you probably capture an extra 60 basis points or so,” Basmadjian says.As for LBOs, Basmadjian says there are more processes going on in the background, but it’s too early to tell whether they’re going to come to fruition. “When pencils went down in April, pencils are back up now,” she notes.“But it takes a while to get the engine going. And we don’t expect to see a lot of new LBO and M&A activity for the remainder of the year. That saddens me to say. But I do think that there’s a lot more in the background, and it just takes a while for it to come to our market.”

“There’s nothing more compelling than live sports,” says Mark Attanasio, co-founder of asset manager Crescent Capital Group, on the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee. The marketplace, now some USD 3tn in size, has the most-watched programs in media, as well as the ability to bring communities together.Attanasio, who is the principal owner of the Major League Baseball team the Milwaukee Brewers, has become the majority owner of the English football team Norwich City. The self-described ‘Ted Lasso’ of English football owners expects to take the team back to the Premier League in three to five years.His advice to others wanting to invest in sports: start by being careful about ego purchases, even as a minority owner. Because it’s not easy to win.There will be trading in minority investments in sports over the next decade or two as that market matures, predicts Attanasio.Turning to credit, the co-founder of Crescent, which is approaching USD 50bn of credit AUM, says he expects to see more private credit loans trading, and that the asset class will “definitely grow to a secondary market.”“All the markets, as they reach a [certain] size, go that way – including, by the way, sports,” he says. “You have a lot of secondary interest in sports teams that trade the NFL,” says Attanasio, who has seen particular minority pieces of US football teams selling for very high valuations.“You’d expect to see additional liquidity in minority investments in sports over the next decade or two, as that market matures. And I think it’ll be good and bad for the market,” Attanasio predicts, pointing to better liquidity, but tighter spreads for investors.