Welcome to Episode 48. This episode is for you if you want to use LinkedIn in more effectively to grow your business, or to help your account management career.James Potter enlightens me on so many things I didn't realise about LinkedIn. We talk about:why it's useful to know who could be looking at your profilewhat typically holds business leaders back from postinghow to avoid making awful faux pas when connecting with peoplethe benefits of being more selective about who you add to your networkand lots more nuggets of usefulness.If you're in an agency account management role, and you're responsible for forecasting and firming up the account growth, I'm running my next Account Accelerator programme starting on 27th January 2022. By the end of nine weeks working with me, you'll have a repeatable, client centric approach to increasing revenue from your existing accounts. Now, if this sounds like you, or perhaps someone in your account management team, then please get in touch and let's see if it's a right fit for you. Email me at jenny@accountmanagementskills.com or connect with me on LinkedIn. 

Welcome to Episode 47. Have you ever wondered why sometimes you're just in flow at work? You're doing something you love, time seems to just stand still. And you feel like you could do this task for ages. And sometimes you're doing tasks that feel heavy, hard, difficult. And you look at someone else doing it and then think, why did why does that come so easy. I've invited business and performance coach Osman Sharif, to talk to us about how understanding your own unique superpower can help you enjoy what you do at work, get the best results, and embrace your unique talents. And ultimately, this makes your business and your career much more satisfying.If you're working in an agency environment in account management and you're ambitious, you want to accelerate your career and you want to increase your confidence with clients and improve your consultancy skills, so you can add more value to your client relationships and grow your accounts then my next Account Accelerator programme starts on January 27th 2022. If you'd like to know more, then please get in contact and let's see if it's a good fit for you. You can contact me on LinkedIn at Jenny Plant or you can drop me an email at jenny@accountmanagementskills.com

Welcome to Episode 46, with Robert Solomon. He's the author of the must read book for anyone in agency account management, 'The Art of Client Service'. In this chat, we talked about:-  why there are fewer account managers doing more with much less experience-  why some people believe the account manager role is becoming extinct and what we both think about that- and why often the work of great account management isn't recognised. Robert also talks us through his approach to managing difficult client conversations. And we talk about so much more. Robert's book, along with his workshops and his coaching have become foundational to building a new culture of client service and collaboration at many organisations of all different types and sizes and geographies. Robert is the founder of Solomon Strategic, and he provides marketing counsel to ad agencies, clients, and those in marketing looking for behaviour change. Robert, in his career, was a senior executive at several US based international advertising and marketing agencies. He was president and CEO of Rapp New York, president of direct and digital marketing at Ammirati Puris Lintas, General Manager of FCB Direct West and Senior Vice President and associate partner at Digitas.

Welcome to Episode 45. Today's chat with Richard Long, Director of Strategy & Communications at earthware will be particularly interesting for you if you're curious to understand how management consultancies operate versus agencies, and why they could potentially be posing a threat to your agency business. This is going to be particularly relevant if you're working in healthcare communications, because Richard currently works for an independent healthcare digital agency, but was also working for a management consultancy where he was setting up the life science arm. Richard shares insight into:- how management consulting consultancies operate- what a land and expand approach looks like- and how you can differentiate yourself from any management consultancy that might be posing a threat to your client business. He also shared some top tips from his many years working in account management. I hope you enjoy this chat with Richard.If you're working in an agency account management role at any level, and you'd like a non salesy approach, to add more value to your clients and grow those existing accounts, then check out my Account Accelerator programme, starting again on 23rd September. If you'd like more details, drop me a line at jenny@accountmanagementskills.com and we can see whether it's right for you.

Welcome to Episode 44. In this episode, I talk to Alex Raymond from Kapta about everything to do with account management processes. Not project management systems, not CRM systems, but having a dedicated system to guide the agency account management team, when it comes to managing and delve developing existing client relationships. Kapta is a key account management platform. We chatted about:- the importance of having a client development plan- the value of running quarterly business reviews- how to avoid client churn- and also how account management's going to evolve over the next three to five years. I hope you enjoy my chat with Alex and you can check out the details for KAMCon on the website which is https://kapta.com/kamcon A reminder also that my next Account Accelerator programme starts on 23rd of September. This is a transformational programme for agency account managers and account directors to take your agency from unpredictable project revenue to more predictable account growth. It's a playbook for growing existing business, a step by step process and a toolbox of strategies that you can take back to your agency and apply. https://www.accountmanagementskills.com/training  On this page you'll also find testimonials from account directors and account managers who've been through the programme.

Transcript: Jenny  00:03Today, I'm delighted to introduce Nina Whittaker to the show. She's the Client Services Director for Stratton Craig and Stratton Craig is a copywriting, copywriting and content agency. And I had the pleasure of working with Nina and her team pretty recently. And I was particularly struck a by Nina's leadership style,  and also the cohesiveness of her team. So it was a really lovely feeling to work with her and her colleagues. So I was really keen to get her on the show to talk about her role as CSD. She's also kind of like deputy Managing Director. So I think it's really interesting for others maybe who are interested in getting into the role themselves, or you aspire to do that in the future to have a little bit of an insight, a window into her life, her role, and just get some thoughts on agency life in general. So welcome, Nina.   Nina  00:57Thank you for having me, Jenny, really pleased to be here. Jenny  01:00Well, I'm delighted. Would you mind starting off just by giving us a little bit of background on you? And how you got to be a CSD?   Nina  01:12Of course, no problem, I thought I'd actually start with a bit of a confession, always a good way to start a podcast. And so I was a student many years ago at Exeter University. And coming into my third year, I was thinking about careers. And I saw that there's an event for advertising, someone talking about advertising, I thought, that is the career for me. That's what I want to do. So I went along eager to find out more and what I should be doing to get into the industry. And it just so happened that a former director of Stratton Craig was presenting on copywriting. Before that day, I didn't really realise that there was such a career path, such a huge industry in this space. And so I took it upon myself to ask for work experience, because really the description of what she was doing, as the Client Services Director herself at the time, really matched my interest as a business management student, but also, my love of writing and essay writing, whatever writing I could get my hands on, I was doing it. So I asked for work experience and probably to say, I haven't looked back 13 years later is probably an understatement because I went from there and worked my way up through the ranks Stratton Craig really. Jenny  02:27Wow. I never knew that story. How amazing is that? It's interesting Nina you say that you didn't know much about it. Because this is a little bit of a pattern I'm seeing that a lot of people don't understand what does it mean to be in this industry?   Nina  02:45Yeah,  it was fascinating, because you do hear you hear about all sorts of careers as a student and to come up through school and University. And I think advertising is perhaps the closest that you would commonly hear about, certainly when I was at university anyway. But in terms of copywriting, and it's a really broad industr, to be honest, there's so much so many formats that you write for, whether it's reporting, social media copy, blog posts, articles etc. There's so many different avenues that a career in copywriting, or the industry can take is really super varied. So for me,  that was the exciting part was knowing that I could merge my kind of passion for writing and editing with probably more of a business management mindset as well. Jenny  03:30So what did you start off doing? You started off with work experience? Nina  03:35Anything and everything, anything and everything. So when I joined, it was a very small team, there was just three of us. So I joined I was doing various bits and bobs, admin tasks. And it also started to get involved in things like costing projects, understanding what it was the clients wanted from us, briefing writers,  being a shadow to others in the team at the time. So I did that work experience for about three weeks and I think it was and then it wasn't long after that I was offered the role as accounting exec. And I moved into that kind of more formal role of really helping to keep projects running and ticking along, and keeping clients and writers happy and on track. And then obviously working my way up through the ranks from there. Jenny  04:26Wow. Tell us a bit about Stratton Craig because you've probably seen during those 13 years an evolution not only of your own role, but obviously if the company and what they offer. So how has that changed and what were you offering before and what are you offering now? 04:41So when I joined Stratton Craig, actually just before I joined it, just been bought by Darren who is the owner of Stratton Craig now and our MD and probably before Darren bought it, it was more of a collective of copywriters and so particularly focused in the legal and Financial industries, and they were doing a lot of writing in that space. And they started to build that agency structure with account managers as well. But Darren also had another agency at the time. So he really kind of accelerated that process in terms of building teams and growth around that kind of agency structure. And so we went from mainly offering copywriting on an ad hoc project basis, and through to adding services like tone of voice consultancy, content strategy. And obviously  a huge amount of what we were doing went digital as well. So that opened up loads of new avenues of formats and channels that we needed to write for. And so really helping to support that growth has been a key part of my role, definitely. And the other key thing that happened is we opened our London office about three years into my role is Stratton Craig. So that then took me to London for six years, I spent my time there and did my stint in London and the team grew hugely in London. And then I now I'm back in Bristol, building the team here again. So it's been quite a journey. And at times, it's felt like, probably, I'd say, over the years, like two or three different roles, and two or three different businesses or based attention to grace that we've experienced. Jenny  06:22I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth. But given that you have worked so closely with the business for so long, there's probably not one area of the business that you don't know something about.  I mean, you do get involved in every area of the business. Nina  06:35Yeah, I think that's probably fair to say, definitely. I think I'm fortunate, we've got a fantastic team. So I'm certainly not responsible for all those areas. But I think part of the Client Services Director role, but also generally of being a director in a smaller business is that you do have an eye on everything and an opinion on everything is also really important to have and to be asked for as well.  I've definitely tried my hand at a fair few different things in the business and also continue to have kind of sight as those things as well. Jenny  07:10So along that theme, what do you think is the real value of the CSD role in an agency? Nina  07:17I was thinking about this actually, because I think probably the really specific and biggest value probably varies from agency to agency because as a client services director, you have site across, obviously, all of the clients, you have a site of a lot of the operations within the agency that you're working for. And for me, certainly at Stratton Craig, that means I have sight of a lot of industries and types of projects. And so I'm constantly learning from one project, what might help with another project and so forth. And being able to have that bird's eye view of things, I think is so important to the client services director role. And I think it allows you to add value in the way that your agency needs iyou to. And so I personally, I'm always looking out for and considering how do we need to adapt to meet the needs of our clients who are also evolving and adapting, and those needs are always changing. So I think having that person who is always keeping their eye on the future, forward looking, okay, this is what our clients are going through, this is what the industries we work in are going through. And so that probably means that we need to position ourselves here to make sure that we are able to support them in the future. And so seeing what it is and then obviously putting in place the structures, the resources that are needed to deliver on that and to be able to meet those expectations that run your agency. Jenny  08:39You've also again hit on something that I think I completely agree with what you've just said. Clients buy into us, because we do have that bird's eye view over different industries, different types of clients, sometimes in the same sector, sometimes not. And funnily enough, one of my previous guests, Carey Evans, from relationship audit said that 100% of clients that they interviewed say that they want agencies to leverage their understanding and knowledge of other industries, other clients to bring to the clients, but only 25% of agencies do it. So I mean, you're obviously in that 25%, which is fantastic. Nina  09:16I think it's so important. Different industries can learn from one another, but it's also just different ways of working. There are so many ways you can tackle the same problems. And as a client services, anyone in Client Services, you see the different approaches organisations take and how they they work and don't work sometime, you can bring that to other clients too. Jenny  09:36Really good insight. And can you describe a little bit about your role. What are the key elements that you get involved in, so we have an insight into a day in the life of Nina. Nina  09:48Oh, goodness, no two days are the same, that's for sure. I think probably the best way to describe it is driving that full lifecycle of a client. So really  from the first inquiry or referral, or however they've come to us, and I will often be their first point of contact. And at the start, a lot of it is about hearing what it is that they're looking for. And firstly, qualifying, you know, do we really think we can add value to this client? Is this the client for us? And are we the agency for them? And then trying to take that forward into shaping some kind of brief and diagnosing, what are their pain points and what value can we add, and how do we add that value. And so initially, understanding their needs and making sure that we're the right people, but then also bringing together the right people to be on that pitch, whether it's a pitch or a proposal, or however we're approaching the client, and the task and making sure  I've got the right team around me to show them what we can do and I'm certainly not a single person in terms of the success that we've had at Stratton Craig. And that's so important to bring the team to life for our clients, I think. And so through the proposal pitch process, and once the clients then won really, that's when I bring on board another member of the Client Services team, and they probably have already been involved in the pitch themselves as well. They will then take the day to day running as the account over. And I will then tend to be involved more in key meetings, like project kickoff meetings, or quarterly business reviews, and anything where I guess it goes beyond just, okay, what are we delivering and how are we going to get there? What perhaps are the pain points that we're facing at the moment? And what opportunities have we as an agency seen that we want to tell that client about and taking that more strategic again, that forward looking view on things, and bringing that to the right kinds of meetings with the client on a regular basis. And you're obviously also, of course, senior point of escalation, if there's any issues. And thankfully, that doesn't happen too much. And I think that's a testament to the team that we built at Stratton Craig, but certainly if there's awkward conversations to be had they fall to you. So you kind of have to be prepared for those. And beyond that at Stratton Craig, there's also the people management aspect of the role. And so I will be supporting our client services team and our writers with their own their own roles, their accounts, but also their career development and helping them go in the direction that I've been fortunate to go in myself. Whether it's because we're a small agency, I don't know, but I'm very closely involved with the strategic direction of our own agency as well. So having my eye on so many things, allows me to offer that client perspective, when we're talking about what services we should be offering or even our own rebrand or whatever it might be. It's  bringing that perspective to Stratton Craig's own growth and development as well. Jenny  12:54It sounds like you get involved into so much like, how do you prioritise? Nina  13:00That's a good question. I think that's a key skill that I have learned, particularly in the last few years of my role.   I think prioritisation comes hand in hand with delegation, and really understanding the skills of those around you. Because everyone wants to be exposed to growth development anyway. So, if I've got 10 tasks to do and only time to do three of them,  there are definitely people who can help me with them and support me on them. So partly, I look at who can help me with certain tasks, and who would benefit from being involved in certain projects and tasks. And then in terms of prioritisation, I'm a big fan of to do lists and writing things down and capturing what it is I've got to do and how long each thing should take me and asking myself regularly, am I the right person to do this? Is this the right time to do this? Does it have to be done today, this morning, this hour, whatever it might be. And it's kind of constantly shifting that to do list  to to allow for reaction as well as proactivity. Jenny  14:09I think you're on the money as well. I mean, choosing the tasks that are really going to move the needle and move things forward is sometimes difficult, isn't it? Because we get caught out putting out fires and things like. Was it difficult for you because you started off so early in the company, and you were doing everything? Was it difficult to transition into that role where you're letting go and letting others take the lead? How did you find that? Nina  14:37It was difficult, I would say it was counterintuitive because until, at each stage of my career development, the things you're letting go of are the things in your previous role you were so closely held accountable for. And it feels really counterintuitive to be like actually, I don't need to know about that. I just need to know about the outcome of that or whatever it might be and and it was definitely difficult. And I think again, particularly in my role as CSD it's been one of my challenges that I've probably taken my time to get used to and to master. I don't know, even if I've mastered it yet. But I think, again, it's building the team around you, I've been really fortunate to be involved in the recruitment of the majority of the team at Stratton Craig. So I've really, from their first days with us been able to understand their strengths, their ambitions, and what it is that they want out of their role, so that I can build that, help them build that, but also know what to send their way, what not send their way and to really trust them in their capacity is as my team as well. Jenny  15:47That's kind of gold standard lead leadership, isn't it, right there, you know, find out what it's gonna motivate them? Because we're all intrinsically motivated by different things, and then help them with their own ambition.  Tell us a bit about recruitment, because we discuss recruitment on the podcast recently. What's your recruitment process? How do you go about selecting the right people for you? Nina  16:12We have a few stages of our process, we try not to make it too laborious. But there's kind of, for us, just an initial informal chat with potential candidates who have shown an interest in a role and just really kind of, is this the right fit for you? And are you the right fit for us, equal kind of footing really, because I think you can write the best job description, and you can write the best CV, but it's always the things in between the line that really create the magic. And so telling them a bit more about the role and hearing from them, some of that stuff we just talked about, their ambitions, and what it is that they want from their next role and everything. And then taking that through to something a bit more of a traditional interview process with competency questions, and so forth. Because it is great to hear, really useful to hear, real examples of things that they've done and challenges or opportunities that they faced and how they've worked with them. And as a writing agency, we also involve some elements of writing in our interview process as well, or editing. And then we at Stratton Craig have found that our most successful recruits, we just had a feeling and that sounds so unscientific, but you can do all the personality tests and everything else. But I think that from those early conversations, you often start to get a feeling whether this person is going to fit into the fabric of our agency, and how we work and how we act and behave, I think is key. And so we talk a lot, and we try to talk a lot outside of interview as well and really just get to know, these candidates as professionals and as people in their own right, not just as candidates for the role that we're interviewing them for. Jenny  18:01Interesting. How has your business model evolved? Do you have a structure in place where it gives you the flexibility to scale up when needed? Because I know how you've been through a growth spurt, you've got some fantastic blue chip clients, how do you manage to resource effectively? Nina  18:26Stratton Craig has always had a mixture of writers in house and a freelance network as well as specialist writers, and many who have actually worked with Stratton Craig longer than I have, so very much part of our team,  Senior Specialist writers who have chosen the freelance route for their careers. And so in terms of the writing side of our business, I would say that that has always been very scalable and it continues to be we we have experts across all the sectors and formats that we work with. And we build teams around our clients needs. And that's something that I think we've really managed to perfect the art of doing that and knowing the right people for the projects. I think, what we probably have seen more of a challenge with is the Client Services team, because obviously, as growth occurs, that's more clients to manage, and more clients to develop as well, really importantly, and making sure that our teams have the freedom to do that means making sure that we've got enough Client Services people on board to really grasp these opportunities. And so we have been through a bit of a growth spurt in the past year or so. In addition to that, we also have some project managers for example. So we do see a difference between account managers and project managers. So we can bring project managers in to manage certain projects for a client or a few clients projects at a time. But in terms of the actual client management and account management, that's the people that we want in house and the people that we build up in the team internally. So I think the easiest way to be scalable is to see that separation between the two. Jenny  20:08So ease of scaling, because I agree with you separating the role, and I think, I know we've had this conversation in the past, but sometimes the account managers who are also doing the project managing it can impede those who are particularly good at expanding and developing those accounts. So just to reiterate, is that a deliberate thought on your part to keep them separate so that they could do those roles? Nina  20:35I think there is certainly still an element of project management involved for account managers. But in those times when we've seen a real pinch in resources, or a sudden influx of work that we need to deliver that's when we've really been able to showcase the project management that we can get some support on here. The clients need to have their regular contact and dedicated account manager, having the picky conversations with them. But actually, what is it that you account manager can just give to someone else, because it's essentially the project management part of your role. So it's not it's not completely separate all the time. But in the moments of squeeze, we can separate it quite quickly. Jenny  21:21 We talked a bit about Stratton Craig offering strategic support for clients, and really having that bigger picture and umbrella view. Tell me a bit about your strategic department. Do you expect the account managers to have that strategic head? Or do you see that as somebody else's role? Nina  21:44I think there's, it's an interesting question, because I think there's  two parts to it, really. Some of our clients come to us commissioning strategy  projects. So they might want to content strategy or just a messaging framework or an a part of what's going to become their comms strategy for them as a business. So we have our content strategists and comms consultants, they're doing that. And those people also do get involved in our client account management as well and our account development, but certainly our account managers are looking at all of their clients from a strategic perspective in terms of really understanding their pain points, and diagnosing, you know, what does that mean for you as the individual in your business? How is that causing you trouble every day? And what can we as an agency do to help you solve that? So constantly kind of asking those slightly deeper questions rather than just what's the next brief that we can do for you  but also, certainly for our top tier clients, helping them to look forward to look ahead at the opportunities that are coming their way. What could they be communicating about next, what might be a challenge that's on the horizon that communications could help them solve, etc, etc. So there's kind of strategic viewpoints on both sides. And we are lucky that we have our content strategists, because they can really help inform. They're fantastic researchers and have a fantastic eye for spotting these kind of opportunities and challenges but equally the account managers are learning from them and taking those processes into their own hands as well. Jenny  23:26Great point,  it's good to have that mentorship internally, isn't it? You mentioned earlier that you have quarterly business reviews,  QBRs,  with your clients. Do you find that generally clients are open to your suggestion for having QBRs? Nina  23:40Yeah, I think so. I think we've seen a variety. Some clients want them monthly, to be honest, sometimes really they find that the more regular, the better, whereas some clients actually have their own cadence already of meetings, and there's just one particular type of meeting that we fit into. So rather than adding another one to the list, we might be invited to something that already exists. And so that could be bi-monthly or even just twice a year, something like that. So I think suggesting them always leads to something, it might not always be a quarterly business review. But whether it becomes a monthly or twice yearly, and it allows you to kind of hear how you can best fit into that strategic decision making that they're already doing themselves. Jenny  24:26I think that's a really golden tip right there for anyone that's not currently doing it. In my experience of working with different types of agencies, sometimes, if the perception is oh, we only do this, it's a service that's a little bit probably downstream, then how could we offer this kind of more upstream service? So as you say, just suggest it, because presumably, how has that helped your relationships with clients being earlier in their planning process? Nina  24:56I think it brings focus to that proactive tasks that we like to do with our clients, and it gives them a moment in time when they can expect it from us as well. And they prepare for it as much as we do to make sure that these sessions are really, really useful. So they will share stuff with us in advance,  sometimes, voluntarily or sometimes, because we've requested it, but things that are really going to help us make the most of an hour or two together. And almost always, we need more time, because everything that we've discussed throws up more questions or more ideas etc, etc. So it allows us to have that kind of brainstorming moment that actually then leads to many more of those types of conversations in the weeks after as well. Jenny  25:43Fantastic. You've mentioned quite a few of them so far, but what do you believe are some of the essential skills for the CSD role? Nina  25:51I think there's some that are common to every client services role, of course. So organisation and time management are crucial and only intensify as you become more senior in that kind of space. And I think the one that I always hone in on is listening, and listening to clients and to your own team as well, I think is absolutely crucial, because it's only really through the listening that you can spot those opportunities, read between the lines or hear between the lines, and  spot the challenges that you you're there to help your clients face. I think my tip would be listening is the one to hone and to really focus on. And then with that comes also empathy and once you've listened understanding and truly, truly feeling what it is that your clients are thinking or your team are thinking, so that you can offer them the help that they need in that moment. I think the worst thing you can do is go in with assumptions as to the position they're in and, and not hear what it is that they're really saying to you about what they want or need from you. Jenny  27:02Great advice. Anything else? Nina  27:06Definitely problem solving is the other aspect is the role. And problems not always being a bad thing. You know, this is opportunity solving in some cases as well. I think there's this constant need to adapt and shift and be ready to pivot at any time, depending on what it is, comes through the inbox through the client inquiry, you know, through the website, and so forth. And making sure that you're always kind of ready to think on your feet as well.   Jenny  27:40I think this is really good advice because the agency life is very much like that, isn't it? No day, as you said at the beginning, is the same. And you have to have that kind of mindset, growth mindset and flexible approach to most things to survive. Nina  27:59One of my mentors, a coach that I've worked with once described my role, and it was just as I was going into the CSD role. And I was  having a bit of trouble moving with, with the role and making sure that I was always changing direction if I needed to. And she was like, You are essentially the football manager on the side of the pitch, the ball is always moving, your players are always moving, their players are always moving, and you need to look to watch all of it. And just keep moving with it all and adapting your steer and your direction, based on where the ball was going next. And that's probably, I haven't done her analogy justice, but I remember at the time thinking,  finding some peace in that understanding of actually, that's my job now, my job isn't just to follow the project plan and just to keep going and deliver my my job is to steer everyone around as everything keeps on shifting and moving. So I found that a very useful way of looking at it Jenny  28:59It's a fantastic analogy, and I'm going to steal it. That's a brilliant- actually anyone who's even thinking about going into the CSD role that's a fantastic kind of vision, a very easy way of of kind of understanding what it's all about. So thank you for sharing that one. You've talked about you're working at a more strategic level with clients generally. Can you share some examples of some of the most effective ways that at Stratton Craig you've been able to help your clients businesses grow? Nina  29:36At a very fundamental kind of level  Stratton Craig works with clients in a lot of technical sectors. The past kind of five years or so I would say that there's been a real awakening as to the need to communicate clearly and accessibly with audiences. Even in those most technical sectors, you're still really communicating with people and so something that we really focus on is that clarity and accessibility of the content we write those kinds of industries, which I think in itself fosters understanding and engagement and loyalty that delivers growth for your clients, almost immediately, really compared to  perhaps how they have been communicating in the past. And then also  through our strategy services, we are helping clients to explore new formats and new channels. Every other day, there's a new way that you could communicate with your audiences and actually helping them to explore and experiment with those. And crucially, to measure the success of those experiments is also helping our clients to reach wider audiences, new audiences,  or just to reach their current audience in new ways as well. And the other thing that we do is produce a lot of annual and sustainability reports. So for me, that's about laying the foundations for growth. So, these are the things investors and analysts and everyone are looking at. So before you've even thought about your end audience, we're actually helping with the setting and making those solid foundations on which to grow as well. And that's a huge part, and certainly, increasingly growing in terms of the advice and support that our clients needs, you know, these regulated industries have to report on these things, and ESG, and so forth, it is becoming a huge topic for them. And without those, the ability to grow is hampered, so certainly that as well. Jenny  31:30I bet you've seen a huge growth in requests for that support? Nina  31:34We have, as I said, ESG has been, certainly past couple of years a real influx, based on various regulations but also, kind of alongside that is a general need for tying together everything a business is already saying into a more cohesive narrative as well. So we're working with clients to look at everything they're currently saying, and bring it together to kind of a single source of truth, because global businesses have so many versions of the same story, in all these different contexts that actually having, again, that external bird's eye perspective on it can really help see quite how in cohesive they can be at times and bringing that together can be can be really helpful, I think. Jenny  32:24Absolutely. Your thoughts about measuring success? How easy is it to measure success in the world of copywriting and content strategy? Nina  32:32That's a question we are asked so often, and it's certainly not easy. And it is possible, though, I think the thing to remember is that rarely does anything stand on its own in terms of the success that you get. So alongside copy, you also have design, and I think those two things work together to deliver the results that you get. So we would never claim success purely based on copy but there are ways that you can, you can understand and evaluate the success of what you do. So, particularly if it's online, there's all sorts of metrics, things like Google Analytics, where you can see are people engaging for longer with our blogs, for example? Or are we driving more traffic, because actually, we're talking about more relevant things so we're appearing in more search results, etc, etc. There's some fundamental pieces like that, but we also do things like social listening, or focus groups as well, for our clients, where we just understand what, how their audiences perceives them. And that's a much softer measure of things. But if a client has struggled with how it's being perceived, or they're going through a rebrand and want to be shifting their position in the market, that's such a useful way of hearing from clients based on your tone of voice was this and it's now this, read those two statements and tell us which company you prefer the sound of. So there are definitely ways to do it. What we tend to do in those early stages of any strategic project is identify what are the relevant KPIs that we can use with this project that are going to get us closest to understanding the ROI? Jenny  34:16It sounds like you play the role of really steering the client through this. Do you work with every type of business from kind of startup to global companies? I mean, I know a handful mostly are global. But do you qualify which types of companies you can help the most? Nina  34:40We do we work with all types of businesses to be honest, a lot of our clients are global and international companies, but there are definitely startups and smaller companies in there as well. And I think that the common thread between them is that they have a need, they understand their need to communicate clearly, consistently and engagingly with their audience, they value their communications. So we work across all sectors as well. So in some sectors, it's that they are really struggling to stand out and that's the kind of challenge that they come to us with. But in others, it really is, actually, no one understands what the hell we do so can you help us articulate it better than we can ourselves because we're way too into detail. So it varies so much but I think it's just that recognition that the words they're using really matter. Jenny  35:32Very, very powerful. And let's go back, going back to your role, talk me through some of the challenges that you face, give us some examples of things that you really have to be prepared for. Nina  35:46So I think, I think that football match analogy is a good one, because the day never stands still really, there's so many things going on within the team and the clients that you have that actually,  there are constant surprises, and some of them are good, and some of them aren't good. But it's just always being, putting yourself in a mindset where you're ready to shift direction and reprioritise as you need to. Sure. And because you are pulled in a lot of different directions. And I would say it's not unusual that all of those things require attention at the same time, you get that perfect storm quite regularly. And so I think prioritising, delegating and managing expectations as well. I think, over my years and Client Services, probably my biggest learning is that when I'm honest with my clients, and I share this is what we're able to do, but this is what we're not able to do right now. That's what really I find strengthens the relationship and moves it forward when you're facing a challenging period. So managing expectations, and making sure that clients and teams are always communicated with clearly and aware of the state of play really is super important. And then in terms of other challenges, I think, moving into the CSD role, as I said, is a challenge because you're having to let go of things that have always been part of your role. And so, certainly for me  that was the challenge of moving into the role. And then beyond that, I think it's perhaps something around the fact that as a CSD, you need to kind of allow your team the freedom to fail. And that comes to me very unnaturally, because I just want to support my team and help them do the very best possible. But I know that I've had learnings along throughout my career, and they've been some of the biggest turning points of my career. And so it's so important to kind of advise and guide people but also to step back and not micromanage them through to success, because actually, that's not really success on their own terms. So for me, that's a big part is kind of allowing them freedom, and being there to support them, should something go wrong. But certainly not micromanaging, or babysitting. Jenny  38:21I've seen how your team have responded to that, and the way you manage and I think you're an absolute natural. And that's probably why your team is so loyal. And you build that trust. I'm just saying that honestly, through an external observation. So what you are doing that really well. I'm just curious to know, do you have any kind of insight into how you manage people. How would you, if you had to train another person in how to manage others? Is there any kind of thing that you would say, you mentioned, don't be a micromanager? I think that's clear, find out what their their ambitions are, so that you can help them progress. Anything else that you think would be useful? Nina  39:07I imagine a lot of Client Services Directors are in a similar position to me where they have been in the role that they're managing themselves. So for me, I quite regularly refer back to things that I experienced in the role when I'm talking to my team and trying to help them understand how to manage a situation or, you know, just guiding them on a particular task that they're having to do. And I will share the learnings that I had when I was in a similar situation, which I think the benefit of that is that it brings me kind of into the room with them and not  someone who's telling them how to do it and oh, you should do it that way, because that's the right way. It's actually I did it and I learned this so you can decide what you do with that, but that's my experience of this challenge that you're facing or this opportunity that you're facing. So being honest about the challenges that I had when I was at that stage I think, helps to humanise the kind of the relationship between you, really. And I also have invested quite a lot of time and getting to know my team as people and outside of work. We are sociable bunch, so I know lots about them, and they know lots about me. And that doesn't work for everyone but I find particularly in a small business it has fostered a real sense of cohesion and support within the workplace. And I think it's that genuinely understanding that you've got each other's backs. And for me as a manager, that's really important when I'm having to deliver some bad or difficult news or having to work through a challenge with someone is actually, I think that belief that I've got their best interests at heart comes from knowing them as more than just my account management team. Jenny  41:04Lovely. I think that's fantastic. I'm interested in your view on this. And one of the biggest questions I get asked most frequently is, what do I have to do to get promoted from account manager to account director. And similarly, for those that are maybe at a senior account director level, looking to step up to CSD and I'd be really interested in your view on what is it for both of those steps? I personally think it is a step. But I would love to just hear you're having been through all of that and seen it with your team.  Nina  41:38I'm not surprised that it's a common question because it's something I struggled with when I was going through those stages. And I think I particularly struggled with the concept of the difference between account manager and account director. Because actually, when you describe many elements of the role and even when you see the people in action, they're often working on similar tasks, or the same tasks together quite often and they probably are responsible individually for certain clients, etc, etc. So it's hard to distinguish what it is that makes you an account director versus an AM.  I think certainly at Stratton Craig and my understanding generally is, it's probably more about how you do what you do than what you're doing.  I think it's stepping into having a more strategic focus,  as you become the account director, you really are responsible for steering your client in the direction that you as an agency believes they should go in. And so it's about always bringing, and being prepared to share your independent opinion of a situation, a challenge, an opportunity, a trend, whatever it might be, being well researched into what it is that your client does, their industry and the opportunities that they have ahead of them. And bringing that to meetings and articulating in a persuasive way, and taking them on that journey with you and building that kind of authority and trust that they're kind of like yeah, Nina really knows what she's talking about in this topic. She's clearly been speaking to others, or she's seen a really interesting article, or whatever it might be.  I didn't know that and I think she can help me with that kind of thing. So for me, I think, moving into that account director role, that's a big part of where you start to do a lot more of that. And I think that was the hardest thing for me to grasp was like, but I am putting ideas on the table, etc, etc. But actually, once you're doing that, you see that taking that slightly more forward looking approach is  actually quite a big difference to what you were doing as an account manager. Jenny  43:47I love the way you explained that. Thank you. . And what about this leap?  Maybe you've got someone listening, that's thinking, well, I'm senior account director. I know I'm ready for CSD. What do you think that big jump is about? Nina  44:07 I mentioned earlier that part of the key to the role is being able to understand strengths of others around you and building teams and using the skill sets that are within your team. And I think demonstrating that you can do that. I think you have opportunities to do that in any client services role,  but demonstrating that as the senior account director is certainly very important. And I think also, from my experience, a big difference was showing and demonstrating my interest and my affinity for the strategy of Stratton Craig as an agency as well, because obviously, as the Client Services Director, you then are brought into many different conversations about actually where are we going as an agency and where should we be going as an agency and so in the run up to becoming Client Services Director, I was actively looking for processes that I thought actually I think we can improve that and or services that others are offering that we aren't, but I think we should be. Looking for opportunities to develop and improve the ways we work and the things we do as an agency and I'm taking those to Darren, my boss, and showing him you know, I really care about Stratton Craig and this is my idea, and open to the feedback on that, and then actually driving that forward. I think driving is key, rather than just giving someone an idea and hoping someone else does it. Jenny  45:37Again, really nicely put,  two things really bringing the best out of others because let's face it, not everybody can, not everybody finds it easy to do. So, you know, it's not to say you can't learn how to do it,  and then being that real, commercial business leader, with that view of I'm passionate about where this business is going. I'm obviously passionate about the clients businesses and how we can help but also where we go. Nina  46:08You've just reminded me something on leadership in any industry, that's certainly something I've experienced is increasing my self awareness has, I think been really key to becoming a client services director. Understanding what it is that motivates me, truly, and what it is that triggers me when I'm stressed or under pressure, and  shifting my perspective on stress versus pressure as well. And that's a whole other conversation but, and certainly, I had a coach who helped me to better understand how I was coming across to both my seniors and the more junior members of the team and how I could adapt the way I communicated when I was under pressure to better support others and each other up and things. There's definitely something in building your self awareness to become a better leader. I think it's crucial. Jenny  47:03That is such a good tip, Nina. Can you share what actually was the feedback to you? What was the lightbulb moment. Do you mind sharing?  Nina  47:13Of course. So I think the time came, when Stratton Craig, I'd been in London for six, seven years. And we decided actually, we're going to  reopen the Bristol office, and that I was going to lead that reopening, and the building of the team in Bristol. And so I think I think I had a bit of the weight of the world on my shoulders at the time. And I was managing my own personal life move to Bristol, and also trying to recruit and train a number of new team members in Bristol, and keep all of those London clients happy and make sure that everyone was still on track there as well. So it was a big task. This was when I was put in touch with this coach, because we talked about it and she had been in the office with me at times. We'd had feedback from the team and I think that when the world was on my shoulders, it all came out through my face and I'd be sat at my desk  frowning like this, and it would make some of these new members of staff not feel like they could come and ask me a question because they were like, Nina's so stressed out, I can't go over, and it was simple things like a post it note on my screen to tell me to remember to look up and just breathe or whatever it was. But that was one of the, for me, one of the simple pieces of feedback that I got. And that I've really tried to work since, is just not holding all that stress within because it does show, even if you're trying really hard not to bother everyone else, there are ways that it shows. So share the load with your manager or whatever it might be, and it will naturally kind of play out for you. Another thing that I really learned was the ways others communicate as well. Some people communicate completely, they hear things or some people feel things and it was listening out for what others say, so that I could adapt how I was talking to them at the time to deliver the message better or  in a way that would make them feel more listened to and to show that they were listened to as well.There was various things we worked through, and I still talk to her now. So it was a fantastic experience. But there was definitely a kind of a big shift at that point for me in terms of self awareness.  Jenny  49:31Brilliant, brilliant tips. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm sure those little insights and the story around it will be really helpful to others. I had something similar happened to me. I've my face said it all.As you say, as a leader, you set the tone energetically for the rest of the team. You know, if you walk into the office with a face like thunder having had a bad weekend, you just it reverberates doesn't it round the office and everyone kind of feels this tension? So thank you for sharing that's really, really useful. So let me just talking about the future, I'm just conscious of time as well, how do you see things evolving for your clients? How do you see the services you offer, matching the ever changing needs of your clients? Nina  50:22I think something we are seeing is that, in the long distant past, as I said, we did a lot of projects with our clients. And what we're now seeing is the clients actually require entire programmes of content. And that's really across all the industries we work with. And, within those programmes, there is a need for so many different formats and channels and requirements, that it's not just one writer, to work with a client, it's actually a team of maybe 10 writers working together, and also individuals on certain projects within that programme and bringing a real range of skill sets together to actually cover all the bases and to make sure that those communications are really successful. So, certainly, we're seeing a trend away from, we need to create a website towards actually, we're rebranding, and these are all the things we need to do and we need to make sure that we're threading the same story throughout all of them. So I think definitely, clients are joining up their own things, which is then obviously, filtering through to the work that we're doing with them as well. Jenny  51:30Are they becoming more open minded to having project teams working remotely in different places? Are you seeing a shift in that as well? Nina  51:40Yeah. And I actually have seen that they value that they value knowing that, we have writers who many are based in the UK, but many aren't so actually having writers who perhaps work in different jurisdictions for legal clients and, or who understand the cultural nuances and how certain language is going to be received in a certain market. There's definitely a want, particularly from our global clients, to have a team that reflects their globalness. Jenny  52:15Amazing. Nina, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing so much value. It's been really, really insightful. And it's great for me to get to know you on a different level as well. So this has been brilliant. I'm just keen for you to share your contact details. First of all, who would you like to be contacted by and how can they get hold of you? Nina  52:37So firstly, if anyone, if anything, I said things resonated with anyone, I'd be happy to hear from anyone who has got ambitions in the industry in terms of account management,  I've benefited from mentors and advice throughout my career. So I'd be really happy to chat to anyone. And, and then in terms of clients, we do work across lots of sectors and performance, so I won't bore you with those, but I think clients who are looking for a partner, a partner that specialises in writing and words, so perhaps, to work in collaboration with the other agencies they might have on their roster, and who are clients who are really happy to open up their strategy to us because I think that's when we can really add the most value and build the best relationships when we really fully understand what are their pain points, and what really are their objectives, their business objectives that we are part of meeting. And so for us, that's Nirvana is having clients where we really do become that seamless extension of their team and can support them in strategic discussions as well as delivery of their projects. Jenny  53:48Amazing. And is the best way to get hold of you on LinkedIn or your website. Nina  53:53I'm on LinkedIn, Nina Whittaker and also you can just drop me an email nina@strattoncraig.co.uk as well.   Jenny  54:01Thank you so much Nina, again. I really appreciate it. Nina  54:03No problem. Thank you for having me. Jenny  54:05Pleasure.

Welcome to Episode 42.The first ever episode of this podcast went live on August the fifth 2020.So one year on almost to the day, and I'm reflecting on the privilege I've had of interviewing some of the most interesting and experienced people in the creative agency world.My goal as always, for you is to come away with helpful tips, ideas, golden Nugget nuggets of wisdom, and reminders for how to keep and grow existing client relationships.And that is whether you are in an agency account management position, an agency leadership role, or you're looking to get into the industry maybe I've spoken to agency account management teams, agency leaders, strategist and consultants to the creative industry.So I've reached this one year milestone, and I wanted to do an episode dedicated to highlighting some of the top tips that have been shared by some of my guests for getting keeping and growing client business. So let's start off with getting businessGETTING BUSINESSTip 1: Getting business with Spencer GallagherAnd the first tip is from Episode Seven with Spencer Gallagher.Spencer is the author of the book Agencynomics, and Co-Founder and Joint CEO of Cact.us consultants.He built and sold his agency and now he helps other agency leaders grow their agencies. So I asked him what he would do if he started again to get new clients.Let's listen to how Spencer replied to that question.********So, so if I started to get some more I'd work on my personal brand, I'd work on learning how to talk about the process to share what I'm doing to demonstrate my expertise. And I would I would start to, I would start to build a really good network of connections. Because the number one way now, around two surveys this year journey, one was the UK lead generation survey, and one was the global lead generation survey. And if you take out the number two, number three way for for agencies to get busy is always existing clients referring other clients or existing clients leaving, but if you remove those, because they've already clients, the number one way is through networking, speaking, thought leadership, and you know, and so those three areas, you need to build your connections. You need to you know, to do to set yourself some, some numbers. I mean, I used to have this thing a blue Halo where I'd meet 50 new people each month. And I think today, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be new people, but meaningful conversations on a regular basis will build your pipeline. And if you build your authority, then those two things come together. So that's what I would do.*****Tip 2: Getting clients with Marcus CauchiTip number two for getting client business, I'm taking it from Episode Three.I managed to have a chat with Marcus Cauchi. Marcus is my old sales trainer and he has been hugely influential in my career.And he's probably one of the most well known UK sales trainers and salesmen, and he's also the host of the hugely successful Inquisitor podcast, I'd highly recommend you have a listen that I think there's about over 300 episodes already.So here's what Marcus said about the skills you need to get new business. Let's hear from Marcus now.*****If you develop two skills, listening, and questioning, I've never listened my way out of the sale. I've talked my way out of plenty. And most people, when they're asking questions are asking questions to gather information to gain understanding if they're slightly better, but the best questions are the ones that deliver insight.And this is where people go horrifically wrong because they don't prepare, they turn up and they prepare the pitch. But the pitch is broadcast. It's not collecting useful insight. It's not gathering the quality information.By the time you've turned up, you should already know most of the answers to the questions you were going to ask. Because you can do www.google.com, what would Google say? It's not like that information isn't out in the public domain. And your buyers are very savvy nowadays, they've got the sum total of human knowledge with a few clicks of a mouse available to them. So they've done a lot of their research. And they're familiar, I think with their symptoms, but they're not necessarily ofay with that cause of their problems.And it's your job to get beyond that. Because if you are making this initial sale, your job is to beat the status quo.60% of buying cycles and up with the incumbent solution, whether it's home grown, or another agency.Of the 40%, 74% of those will go to the company that displaces their current preferences, helps them recognise what the cost of staying stuck will be, creates enough points of difference.And this isn't about the product necessarily. It's about what matters to the customer and creates enough white space between you and the competition and the incumbent. And most importantly here is being able to allay their anticipated fear of regret and blame. That's how you win business.*****Tip 3: Getting business with Nathan AnibabaSo continuing the theme of new business in Episode 31 we talked about having an agency podcast to generate leads new business leads, and Nathan Anibaba, who is the Founder and Managing Director of Agency Dealmasters provided some examples of how podcasting can help generate new business for agencies.So here is Nathan, and what he shared about what makes a great podcast.*******The secret to podcasting is that it needs to be educational. So people need to come away from it, learning something. It needs to be entertaining, and it needs to be fun. You know if you can do those three things, that's the magic trifecta.But the most important one, especially for senior decision makers is that they have to know that when they spend their time listening to your show, they're going to come out of it better off, they're going to learn something they're going to improve, they're going to be better they're going to be able to implement something in their business as a result of it.*****I hope you enjoyed that quote. And by the way, if you're not listening to the Agency Dealmasters podcast, you're missing out on a fantastic one.Nathan has been doing this much longer than I have and has had some brilliant guests, including Blair Enns from Win Without Pitching and also Rory Sutherland, the Vice Chairman of Ogilvy.Okay, so tip number four....Tip 4: Getting clients with Mark GoulstonTip number four comes from my chat with Mark Goulston in Episode 33.It's not just about the tactics for generating new business, but it's also how you show up in your new business meetings and your ability to communicate and build rapport really quickly with those prospective clients.Mark is an ex FBI hostage negotiation trainer. He's also a psychologist, a business advisor, consultant,  speaker, and the author of the brilliant book, Just Listen, which I highly recommend.And he reminded us about the power of empathy in your new business meetings with prospects. Let's hear what Mark says about new business meetings.******In my book just listen, I use a bunch of acronyms to make something easier to remember. And I said you want to be a PAL in conversations. And PAL stands for "Purposeful Agenda-less Listening".And I think one of the reasons people don't listen is because most people have an agenda.I wrote a blog on why people are afraid to empathise, especially in the business world. And one of the reasons people are afraid to empathise in the business world is if I really find out where the other person's coming from what's really important to them what they care about what they really need, and it doesn't match what I'm selling. If I'm going to be really showing that I'm of service and I care about them, they're not going to buy what I have.So I'm afraid to empathise and bring up something that means I can't sell them what I have. But the problem is, you can if you're forceful, you may push something through to someone who's intimidated by that. But, boy, if it doesn't work out, and they feel that you've sold them too hard, you're not going to win many friends or influence too many people.*****KEEPING BUSINESSSo we've listened to a few quotes, sharing some tips about getting new business, but what about keeping the existing clients that you've already got?So let's turn our attentions to a few tips about this.Now we know that keeping business is about strengthening your position as a trusted advisor rather than just being seen as an order taker.Be more consultative and making sure you're consistently adding value to the client's business and surprising them with new ideas.Tip 5: Keeping clients with Andy Young and Laura CohenOn episode 16, and this is tip number five, I had the pleasure of speaking to the account management team at Skeleton Productions.Andy Young and Laura Cohen shared their thoughts about what it meant to be a strategic account manager. Let's hear now what Andy said...******When you think of account management you think of a relationship builder. That's what you are, you're there to build relationships. But I've seen myself shifting definitely more recently to a more challenger mentality. And I think that kind of shift does elevate you in your client's eyes.It adds additional value to them and as Laura says, it allows you to get the, get the briefs and get on to the nitty gritty so that when we go back internally, we can produce the best work possible because we fully understood their business, we fully understood their aims.And again, to reiterate what Laura said, sometimes the client says, I want an explainer video for this, I don't want it done like this. And it's like, hang on, let's look at what you're trying to achieve. Let's look at who you're talking to. And let's see if that is the right way. You're saying you want live action. Maybe animation is better?By having that you can really get people to think and it just builds it just builds momentum and you start then to become a trusted advisor and then they kind of reach out to you saying right, we're trying to do this in 2021. We'd love to have your input on the content plan. And things like that open up a whole new avenue of conversation and whole new way to add value to that relationship.Tip 6: Keeping clients with Steve Richards and Ryan O'KeeffeTip number six for keeping existing clients was on episode 36.I had the pleasure of speaking to the delightful Steve Richards and Ryan O'Keeffe from Jago.Jago helps agency leaders build their personal brand and Steve reminded us of how you know those in account management can also build their personal brand and establish trust with their clients.Let's hear what Steve had to say.*****Recruitment's becoming more like marketing.And one of the things that will attract talent into your business is if you have an employee branding programme.Actually the fastest growing businesses, a large percentage of them, have employee branding as official programmes. Employee branding is basically personal branding for the employees where they are pushing out the company's marketing and brand through their own social channels.Because they get 560% more engagement than the company channels.So actually, if you're an account manager, it makes sense for you to be investing in your personal brand for your career opportunities going forward, but also for maintaining those relationships.Because if you're on LinkedIn (or wherever) putting out content and your clients are following you on LinkedIn, you're front of their mind and it helps you scale trust faster and quicker, and build stronger relationships, deeper, more meaningful relationships with your clients because they're not just having account management calls. They're seeing you in between the calls and totally buying into you and the value that you bring.Tip 7: Keeping clients with Simon Rhind-TuttTip number seven comes from Episode 27, I had the opportunity to chat to Simon Rhind-Tutt and Carey Evans from Relationship Audit and Management (RAM) and they shared a top tip.RAM have interviewed hundreds of clients over a huge number of years. They basically audit the relationship between clients and suppliers.So they work on behalf of agencies to go in and interview your clients. And they always listen for what's not being said and they ask the difficult questions.So inevitably, they come back with these really deep insights about how your clients really think about you.Simon had some wise words to share about tactics for us in the account management role, to improving client relationships.Let's hear what Simon said:*********With the intensity of deliverables and the problems associated with remote working, one of the casualties of this are regular post project reviews.What we're seeing is they're being sacrificed just in the charge to get everything done.If you are holding regular post project reviews, to look at what's worked and why it's worked, particularly in terms of process, but also to look at where problems have occurred, and what the agency can be doing to prevent those problems occurring again, one of which may be forward planning, you will have a much much better client relationship.GROWING CLIENT BUSINESSI hope you're enjoying these insights and tips for getting and keeping client business.We're now going to turn our attentions to growth of accounts.So reflecting back on all of the interviews I've had, I wanted to pull out a couple of quotes that I thought were really relevant to this area.At the end of 2019 Gartner conducted a piece of research among 700 business to business organisations, and account managers.And they asked them what they thought it took to grow existing business.And a lot of account managers said exceptional service.But the surprising reality and the conclusion of this of this research was the actually, you have to have client improvement conversations.And that means being hugely commercially aware, understanding your client's business, and also having the ability to offer insight and help your client grow their business.So the starting point is having commercial acumen, understanding their business, their industry, asking great questions to uncover challenges and then pro-actively surprising the client by bringing them new ideas, and helping the client capitalise on these future business opportunities.Or conversely helping them avoid future problems.So for this, you need to be situationally aware, which means keeping an eye on the changes in your industry, the clients industry, and also the market in general.So there was a lovely quote from Carey Evans from RAM which highlighted the importance of sharing your knowledge. And this was on episode 38.So let's hear what Carey said.*******100% of clients want their agencies to leverage their learning with other clients to their benefit.25% of agencies do so.100 versus 25. It's dead easy, right?If you're doing stuff for a certain client that works and you see an analogous situation with another client that could benefit from a similar sort of situation, then why not share? (confidentiality being prime of course), but you can certainly talk broad principles as and when you do it.Of course, the great thing is you can also turn these things into case studies, whereby it becomes an agency library of how to reapply learning from one situation to another while making adjustments at the margin.*****Tip 9: Growing clients with David C. BakerTip Number nine comes from Episode 24. I had the absolute pleasure of chatting to David C. Baker, who is the author of the book "The Business of Expertise", and the co-host of the massively popular 2Bob's podcast.David consults with agency leaders he has done for a number of years.And this is what he had to say about how to grow existing business.*******Jenny:So what do you advise agency leaders do when they say to you that they want to grow their accounts, what are your go to pieces of advice for them?David:The single thing that I think is most important there is to keep simulating the first year you work for the client.So when you presumably, when you land a client, they were already working with somebody else. If they weren't, then they probably are not a good client.In other words, you're not the first agency they're working with. That's a sign of a client, that's a good fit. And they came to you, because something about the previous firm was stale.They weren't reinventing things. They were just doing the minimum, whatever those things were, and you impressed them out of the gate.And you were a little bit surprised you landed it, and now you're doing everything you can to fill those expectations that they have.But then you slide into the same thing the other previous agency did, and you have new clients coming along all the time. And you kind of forget these and you don't every year say, All right, let's not just modify last year's plan, let's instead look at what would we do completely differently if we inherited this plan from another agency? What could we do differently.And I think that's the biggest thing you can do to grow accounts and to keep them.The goal isn't to keep them forever. The goal is to keep them for the right amount of time. And that could be for two years or five years. Seldom is it longer than that.And the key to that is to there are a lot of things out of your control, obviously. But the key to that is to treat it like it's a new year every year and this is a client we're still really trying hard to impress.*******Tip 10: Growing clients with Sam BridgerAnd finally, tip number 10. I want to give you a tip about asking for referrals, which is a great way to grow your existing client business.I too often meet agency account managers who feel it's too pushy or too salesy to ask their clients for referrals, either to other areas of the business or to their network, even when the relationship is really, really strong.And sometimes account managers anticipate that the client might feel that they don't want their agency to work with anybody else. So that's another reason that they don't ask for referrals.But I spoke to Sam Bridger on episode 22. And Sam is an interim marketing director. She's worked in marketing at a high level for over 30 years and has managed a huge amount of agencies through her time.And I asked her the question about referrals and whether in her experience working for multiple different companies and multiple different agencies, whether she'd ever been asked for a referral. And here's what she said.....******Jenny:If you're if you've got an agency that's working really well with you, and you love them, it's been going on for a while and they've been performing really well and bringing you new ideas, new insights, etc. Have you ever been asked by an agency of that kind for referrals? e.g. can you refer me to other parts of the business or can you refer me to....Sam:That's really interesting Jenny I don't think I ever have actually.  I have done it. I have said to other parts of the business 'you should work with this agency'.And the example I gave earlier on about the Mercedes roster got agencies working for other parts of the business.But I don't think anyone has ever explicitly said "Could you recommend me to someone you know", whether inside or outside the business.So that's, that's a really good tip I think. Do that.Jenny:Okay, so if someone had asked you, would you have helped?Sam:If I thought they were a good agency, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's all about helping each other out. So, yeah, I would have no qualms in recommending it.And I have, you know, subsequently as a client, obviously, I've gone on to, from one business to another entity. I've worked with that agent that afar but wonder if they could help us. You keep hold of the good ones.*****Again, I hope you're taking notes and getting some inspiration from these tips that my ex guests have shared.So to finish off, I want to finish off with a little good news story from one of my account accelerator participants, Laura Cohen, she actually put into place the referral strategy that I teach, and her confidence grew as a result, the positive response that she got from her client, when she asked him for a referral.So I want to share this little quote from Laura now:*****Asking for referrals at the beginning seemed a very unnatural thing before. And for the training, it made complete sense why you would do that because it also instils total confidence in what you're about to deliver to the client as well. And it's just sometimes we're very British about it. But with a client that I had in mind then I contacted them and just asked them about, you know, the referral and he was absolutely completely afraid. It was it was like a normal process. It was expected. It's that confidence to say 'this is okay, this is normal. It's okay to ask for referrals'.****I hope you enjoyed these top tips for getting keeping and growing client business and maybe your you'll implement one or two of them.If you'd like to join my account accelerator training programme, which is for agency account management teams to help them grow existing business then the next group starts on 23rd September 2021.You can find all the details at https://accountmanagementskills.com/training or drop me a line on LinkedIn at Jenny Plant, or send me an email at Jenny@accountmanagementskills.com.I look forward to speaking to you

Transcript: Jenny  00:02So on today's episode, I'm really thrilled to have Phil Cookson with me. Phil is director of Creative Resource. He's also the cofounder of School of Thought, a not for profit organisation with the objective of helping to develop the creative sector in the north of England. So I'd love to dive into that bit, Phil, later. And he's got 17 years experience in the creative and marketing sectors. And that's one of the big reasons that I've invited Phil on today. He's so active online, he has a very buoyant agency, recruitment agency. And I've asked him particularly to share his observations, thoughts, and tips for recruitment, both for creative agencies and also for candidates. So Phil , a massive welcome to you. Phil  00:49Thank you. Thanks for having me, Jenny. Really looking forward to it. Jenny  00:52Yeah, me too. I can't wait. So would you mind first of all, Phil just kicking off by spending a few minutes talking about you, your background, what you do now and who you help. Phil  01:02Yeah, so as you said, 17 years in recruitment now for the creative, and marketing sector, predominantly agencies. We also do it with brands as well. We focus primarily on the north of England, really they're our heartlands that we like to stick within and really get the relationships deep, which which you can do when you've been doing it as long as I have you, you tend to have some really long standing relationships, which is really good. We're now a team of eight, hopefully soon to be a much larger team if I can find some staff for myself, which is it's not very easy. It's quite a funny thing, isn't it? Recruiters saying they're finding recruiting stuff very difficult. So, yeah, hopefully bigger team soon. And then I'm co founder School of Thought. School of Thought's been around for six years now in the North. We basically run a 12 week intensive, creative course and competition that happens every year in Manchester. And we're now in our second year in Leeds. We've had, I think, by the end of this current year, we'll have had 113 people who've gone through the School of Thought programme. Every week is hosted by a different agency in the north, they set the group a brief, and we come up with some ideas to crack it. And it's a lot of fun. And I think the creatives that do it would all probably agree they've all come out of it having learned a huge amount of skills and experience. And we think we have one of the best First Prizes of anything going as well. So the winner's prize is a trip to Cannes Lions, so which is pretty life changing for the people who've been.  Unfortunately, with Cannes not having run for last year, initially, I've got a little backlog of people I need to send. So hopefully next year,  I'll be very heavily involved in my travel agent duties of getting several people over to Cannes, the tickets and the accommodation and things. It's a lot of fun, School of Thought. Jenny  03:23It sounds like a fantastic prize. And is that open to just creatives or is it across the board? For anyone in the agency? Phil  03:31Yeah, across the board. We've had quite a few account handlers do it. We've had quite a few planners, quite a few marketing people from client side as well. So but , anybody who thinks you know, ideas are important. And I think we'd all agree they are. I think anybody who wants to get better at developing ideas, recognising big ideas, pitching big ideas. Yes, it's for anybody. And we have people just coming into the industry through to senior people as well. So it's a real cross section of people from different backgrounds and different levels. Jenny  04:10And just briefly Phil, why did, how did that come about? Why did you start that? Phil  04:14It came about with my cofounder, David is from Australia, and he had experience with the program in Australia called the Award School, which is run on a similar style. And when he came to Manchester, he said to me, have you got anything like this in Manchester, or even the UK? And I said, No, I don't think we have. So I said to him why don't you do something like that? He said, right I will do but you're going to help me. So I got roped in to help him because he had the idea of how it would work and I had all the connections in the agencies that we needed to get agreement to come on board and do it with us. So that was where we originally came from. Jenny  04:59It's actually a very shrewd move, isn't it because it's, it not only works for the individuals who are taking part in the program , but it also creates kind of an event, a program  where you're then developing more relationships with the industry. So it's kind of a win win, isn't it? 05:16Yeah, it's great because I get to spend time  with all the agencies,  through the program. We, COVID allowing, we always have a big event at the end of it in Manchester, or Leeds, where we hopefully get as many agencies and creative people down as possible, usually 150 to 200 people there having drinks, looking at what's been produced over the 12 weeks, and it's a real celebration of what the 12 people have done. And also a chance for the industry in those cities to come together. And School of Thought is about helping the creative ecosystem, in those cities. It's by the agencies, for the agencies and I see myself as a facilitator, really, who brings it together.   Jenny  06:08Fantastic, fantastic. So listen, Phil, I'm really keen, and I'm sure the listeners are to get from your side, what what you're seeing in terms of the general trends in the creative agency recruitment market currently, and perhaps since the whole COVID thing's happened, and what are you seeing? 06:29This year, in particular, it seems like everybody's trying to hire. It really does seem like every agency that I speak to us, has really come through last year in in really fine fettle. Most conversations last year, people were saying things are okay,  we're going along fine. And then it almost seems like at the start of this year, clients have pressed a button, and all of a sudden, everybody's snowed under. So the majority of the roles we're seen and that we're recruiting for, they're all growth, they're all new roles. There's very few replacement roles. The majority of agencies seems to be growing and getting bigger. And, certainly the agency market in the North is really vibrant at the moment. Jenny  07:26Is it growth within a certain type of role, or is it across the board, every type of role for agencies? Phil  07:33It's really across the board, I mean, that there are huge amounts of roles in account handling and creative, but, even in niches like traffic managers, and studio managers, and you don't see many of those roles about but people are hiring them because they're getting busier. And the whole range of digital marketing roles are constantly growing, paid media, and in particular, is one that's really going up and up and up. But it's really across the whole range of types of agency roles. Jenny  08:10And are you finding that there are the candidates available? Or is that the balance that everyone's looking for someone but no one's available? Phil  08:18At the moment the balance between supply and demand is very out of our focus. There's far more demand than supply at the moment. There's general shortages in all areas. We certainly feel from some of the conversations we're having, that there's a lot of people who have perhaps been safe in their role for the last 15 months since the pandemic started telling us that they're putting their career moves on hold, until they feel there's a bit more confidence that things are back to normal. So there is a, like I say it's wildly out of kilter between supply and demand. And I must say in all the years I've been recruiting, there aren't many years where supply and demand are equal. I can probably think of two years maybe in the last 17-18 years, where you might argue that supply and demand are equal. Very often, it's one way or the other. But I've never seen it quite so out of kilter. Jenny  09:29How are agencies responding? Are they putting up their salaries? Are they  doing a mixture of coming to you as a recruitment agency, but also doing a lot of their recruitment themselves? How are they responding to the lack of candidates, because that must be hugely frustrating. Phil  09:47It's difficult and I think agencies are coming to us they're doing their own networks and and their own advertising as well to try and get a shortlist and I think what we've found working with agencies that have successfully recruited this year is they've moved away from this thought that they must interview four people for a job. If they can get their head around the fact that they might only interview one person, and they need to compare that person to their own criteria, and then make a decision. Salaries, yes, they are going up. And I think people are willing to pay good money for good people. I have not seen too many examples of salaries going ridiculous, which I'm glad, because that can send the whole market flying upwards if, all of a sudden, one agency or a couple of agencies start paying 10,000 pounds more for what other agencies are paying it forces everybody up I don't think anybody wants to see that. But at the same time, if there's a good candidate available, I think you need to pay them a good wage to secure them otherwise someone else will. Jenny  11:11Absolutely. So I'm going to come back to this topic a little bit later, because I'd love to hear more tips and advice that you would give to agencies. I'm just interested, obviously, we've got a candidate shortage. What is the industry doing to attract new talent  into the agency world? Are we doing a good job? Phil  11:30I don't think we are. Well, I think we attract talent that wants to come into it agencies. But I think agencies generally are quite nervous about bringing people in, without any agency experience.  It's almost like a big thing that if you haven't got agency experience, you won't be able to do the job, you won't be able to understand what we do. And I don't think it's quite that simple. And I don't think it's quite that true. I think, there are people who are  maybe they've been in house, and they want to try agency. And there's still a nervousness about bringing them in. But I was speaking to an agency a few weeks ago, a talent manager at an agency and we were talking about this issue. And she said, well, brands are quite happy to take people from agencies who've never worked in a brand before, why aren't we happy to do the same? So there are people trying to get into agencies, but I do feel there's a bit of nervousness about people without agency experience. Jenny  12:41And why do you think that is? Phil  12:43I think you do find most agencies, when you do talk to them about that they've probably had a bad experience at some point of somebody who's come in from an in house role and not worked out or not enjoyed it. And I think that some, in some cases, that one bad experience puts them off. You've got a bad apple, so you throw away the bunch type thing. And I feel that there is a little bit of that, in that type of thing. And also, I think sometimes we don't make enough of the fact that, particularly with account handling, there are other sectors where there are very strong B2B client services people that could probably be very well utilised by an agency and we don't, again, don't seem willing to look outside the box at people who've maybe come from a completely different type of industry, but have brilliant account handling and client services skills. Jenny  13:45I agree there. In a way, in my personal experience of employing people in the past that have been in-house like working as a marketing manager role, and then they come agency side, it's like a baptism of fire. And in my experience, it hasn't worked out. I can't say that. I mean, I can think of a few examples where it has so I'm not saying that this is, but I almost sympathise and empathise with the agencies that have said this, because I've seen it happen myself. I think the pace that we work in an agency is incredible. And if you're not used to that pace, or you're not used to juggling a million things,  it can very quickly say, Oh, God, I just I'm gonna go back to, you know, do you agree? Is that the kind of feedback that you're getting? Phil  14:33Yeah, and you're right. I've seen people who've who've tried to make that move, and it hasn't worked out. And you know, they haven't enjoyed it. And I think, for me, it's about like, trying to identify what type of experience they've got from an in house environment. And there's very different pace in, say, a retail brand than there would be in an engineering brand,  and so I think sometimes you've got to try and look between the lines, what type of experience they've got and where they've been, and what are their motivations for coming to an agency, because the ones that I've seen have made it successful are the ones that have come to me and said, I look at what my agency is doing and I just wished I was there rather than here. And I don't feel the pace is enough for me in my current role, I want to get into an agency because I want the pace and I want the variety. Because I think, especially when you start your career, and I would always advise this to anyone starting a career, when you get a first job offer, you often take it, if that happens to be client side, but  you might have the personality to suit an agency, you just didn't get, your first job offer wasn't an agency job. So sometimes and it happens the other way round, I've seen lots of people, two or three years in an agency in the first job, and they realise it's not for me, and they go the other way. And you've got to understand that sometimes people haven't been able to get that perfect job first time around. And it might be that  they realise through working for two or three years, I'd rather be on the other side of the fence and make use of those people that want to do that.  Jenny  16:15Yeah, that's fair enough. I mean, I suppose going back to the subject of attracting talent, I mean, are you seeing that a lot of agencies are interested in sort of graduates coming through? And do you do anything, because what occurred to me when you were talking there was the benefit of having someone involved in the recruitment process, a) because it's hugely time consuming but too that you can offer that kind of perspective on things that you can really talk about the candidate in, I don't like particularly like this word, but a holistic sense, you know, look at this, look at that, look at their motivation, so that's guiding them, is really valuable. Phil  16:51Yeah, I think agencies are, you know, interested in graduate talent. And I think we do an event every year called Two+Two, which is a full day event for marketing and creative students to work on a brief together, and we get around 50 different agencies to come down and spend the day with them, mentoring them. And lots of agencies pick up talent from that event. And also, you see a lot of the students, their eyes being open to actually what agencies do. Because I think there's definitely an issue there in terms of do graduates understand what agencies do and what roles are available. And we've we've found quite a few have gone into account handling off the back of that event, because they've met people from agencies who've talked to them about what they do, and what roles are available. And all of a sudden,  they've said to us, we had no idea this existed,  and I think that, and I don't know  quite why this has changed, but certainly, if you went back 10 or 15 years, if you put an ad out for a graduate account exec, you'd get lots of people applying with relevant degrees, perhaps with placement experience, you'd get a lot of people. Now, when those same ads go out, you get virtually nothing. And I don't know quite why that graduates now don't seem to either understand or be attracted to agency life in the same way that perhaps 15, 20, 30 years ago people did. So haven't got an answer for that as such. All I know, is that a lot of the unis that talk to us they don't feel that their students know a lot about agencies. So is the industry sort of portraying itself and communicating itself as well as it could do, is probably the question. Jenny  18:53I think you're on the money here. I think your event sounds fantastic. And obviously, we will include a link for anyone listening that that wants to get into the industry. Absolutely. I think, from my experience, the Pharmaceutical Marketing Society, they do an event for graduates, which is hugely beneficial, because they get to see...so I think I think you're on the money there. Also, I've spoken to new graduates that have joined an agency and have said to me, I had no idea what the hell, you know, and I thought this this company, this agency had a graduate scheme. So I think there's a real gap in the market there. Phil  19:31And I think, you know, as well, we see graduates coming out now, and I think graduate salary expectations have perhaps gone up in the last few years as well. And I'm not sure agency entry level salaries have gone up too match. Certainly, in the North, I think most agencies would say for an entry level grad, they'd probably looking to pay around 18k, maybe 20 if they had a placement year, but I would say most graduates, and the really good graduates, the ones that you want, they're looking for more than that. And you've got other industries, not necessarily,  maybe client side, but even tech startups and things like that, that will pay more. And you're not just competing for salary against a talent against the agency down the road, you're competing for it against in house roles, graduate schemes, tech companies. It'd not as simple as just saying, Oh, well, they want to be in an agency. So they'll come to us, you're competing in a wider, a wider ecosystem, really, than just agencies.   Jenny  20:43It's so true, Phil, and I think, and that's something I've heard also in the past is that the tech sector, are attracting our talent in a better way. And, you know, maybe we should be modelling what they're doing. That would be an interesting project to look at how the companies I mean, even the likes of Facebook, Google, Twitter, the big companies who are, Apple, the companies that everyone knows about in the tech industry, and that that probably to a graduate would seem a lot more exciting. But, you know, hey, I'm not 100% sure, like you say, but I think there's a massive gap here. Phil  21:17Yeah, and I think you're right, as well about saying that people who start in agencies at entry level are almost being left to their own devices, in a way, because agencies, especially small to medium sized agencies,  and in the North, we've got a lot of agencies that you would class of that size not having a focused talent function. And your development is almost left down to whether you get a good line manager or not. And often those line managers haven't been trained, perhaps in the right way, or even trained to manage a more junior member of staff. So you're almost getting people who don't fully know  what they're doing, managing and training somebody else.   Jenny  22:05It's the blind leading the blind, Phil, isn't it? Phil  22:07Yeah. And that's a difficulty and say, in terms of how do you get those people when they're in,  how do you help them to progress and develop and to grow and to feel like their career is going forward in the right direction? That's a real challenge. Jenny  22:27Okay. So that I think, again, you're on the money with this, because, yes, I don't know of many agencies with really comprehensive staff onboarding programmes .It's like here's the desk, this is the client, blah, blah, blah. So I like this, I think it's a good conversation to be having, because maybe it's going to bring to the agency's mind anyone listening, right, we need to focus some time here. But can you give me some examples of agencies that are attracting the talent? And why are they attracting that talent? Phil  22:58Yeah, I think certainly, as I was saying not focusing on, we must have a shortlist of four people is really important. And also hhose that are willing to hire on on culture fit and potential. So one of the things I've been saying quite recently, and I think it sums up what I've been talking about with a lot of agencies is don't look for a unicorn, if you look for unicorn, you might be disappointed. But if you can find a horse, and then you can add the horn yourself when they're inside the building, and it's sort of like the way I think agencies are attracting talent, the ones that are looking at it and going, Well, we might not find somebody who ticks 10 out of 10 boxes, but if we find someone that ticks eight out of 10, and is a great culture fit,  we can fill in those other gaps. And I think that's a really sort of clever and smart way of looking at it. At the moment, I think you've got to think in those ways.  Jenny  24:07I like that analogy. And I think that's a great argument to say. But what are the traits that you're looking for? You know when you've been working with people, the ones who are self starters, that get stuff done, that is always asking, what else can I do now? Is this okay? What could I read behind the scenes to kind of get me up to speed with this and you can almost feel that they're going to be fantastic. And I funnily enough, I ended up talking to her a CSD yesterday who was of that ilk. And I ended up saying to he,r Can I just tell you how impressed I am with you? Yeah, she went, Oh, I feel like an imposter. I said, don't worry about it. She didn't have necessarily a lot of formal training. But my God, was she all over it. Sorry, you're the expert, I'm not. Phil  24:53I think you're right,  they're always the things that I look for and I think the agencies that I work with are looking for is , it's an attitude, isn't it as much as anything else. And if people have the right attitude, like say you can educate them in areas that you need to, and you can develop skills, but that attitude and that willingness to ask questions and to look for work. And if you go back to entry level people, the advice I always give to people at that level, when they're going for interviews or internships, I always say to them if you ask people in the agency, what can I do to help you? What can I do to make your life easier, they will love you and that rings true, probably throughout their career. If you're asking yourself, what can I do to make everybody else's life easier in the agency? How can I ease the pressure on your shoulders? They will love you and they'll want you around, won't they? Jenny  25:55Absolutely, I think that's a magic question. Very good tip. So these agencies that are currently attracting the talent, tell me your views on how proactive they are with their own marketing of their own agency, does that have a bearing on how the candidate sees them? What else could agencies be doing to make themselves more attractive, so that they're actually drawing them in? Phil  26:22Yeah, I think we need to be more visible, I think all agencies needs to be more visible, I think it helps to have a reputation. And  that doesn't just mean like winning awards, it can be more of a reputation about the type of culture you've got. And I'm not sure agencies do a great deal of talk about that. Some do. And I think it's a really good public portrayal to really  show what type of culture and what type of environment you've got. And I think that really helps if you can really get that across to people. And I think as wel through working with us one of the great things we're good at is telling and crafting these stories about agencies and because I understand not every agency has the time to really do a lot of their own marketing. And sometimes  we can tell a really good story, and a really good insight into the type of place it is to get a candidate to look at it that maybe it wouldn't have been on their radar before because there are hundreds of agencies. And over the years I've talked to a lot of candidates who say things to me, like, Well, I think I know all the agencies that I'd want to work for. And I say, Do you realise how many agencies there are?  I'm sure I can introduce you to a few that you've never heard of that you would absolutely love. So certainly we help in that regard in terms of  making those connections and introducing new agencies to people that they haven't heard of before. Jenny  28:07Great point.  And I love the fact that you help agencies craft that story, because you're right,  I remember recruiting before, it's like, what's the job description? Let's just get it out there. You know, there's no thought that goes into it. So having someone else to add that value, I think is key. I want to move on to the account management function specifically, because I obviously this is Creative Agency Account Manager, what value do you think a good account manager brings to the agency? Phil  28:37Something stuck with me, many, many years ago, talking to an agency MD, about this. And his point to me was that a good account manager is one that will get the brief right first time, at least 95% of the time. And his point of view was that someone who could do that is worth the weight in gold, and will keep his agency's profit margin going north, and account managers that get the brief wrong more times than they get it right, you know, are going to be sending it southwards on that profit margin. And that stuck with me. And that was probably like 16 years ago, I was told that and it's always stuck with me is sort of a really good way of summing up the value of a good account manager. Jenny  29:35It's a good point, actually, because in order to write a good brief, you've got to have the skills behind it to be asking the right questions, to challenge the brief, to make sure that you've done your research. So a lot is encompassed in that statement, isn't it? You know, if the final brief is the right one, and everyone works to it, not only are you saving a huge amount of time and effort and money, but it demonstrates that the account manager is doing exactly what they need to do. Phil  30:05 And I think as well that ability to work successfully with the creatives and that ability to understand creativity is really important. And one of the things we enjoy with the Handle This event is it's often the first time that marketing students and creative students have worked together, because the way universities are structured, they tend to be in different departments, the marketing degrees in the business school, the creative courses are in the art school. And the way universities are structured, they can't do cross department courses and units. And often it's the first time they've ever worked together. And  the way you see their eyes opening about what the other person does and the skills that they bring to the table is wonderful. And I think that ability to really get the best out of your creatives as an account manager and get them on your side is really important as well. Jenny  31:07Love that. Yeah, that's so so true. And so what do agencies or what else do agencies want from account managers? Get the brief right, be able to work with the creative team, obviously proactivity, as we've discussed, what else anything else that they're asking for? Phil  31:25I think the dream for most agency owners is  account handlers that can grow existing clients. And I've always felt that sales is seen as a dirty word, within agency account managers often, that they don't want to think that sales is something that they have to do but, but I think agency MDs, and chief execs would like them to be able to do it. And again, I remember a young lady many years ago, an account exec that I met, and she'd only been in the industry for 18 months. And she was telling me that she'd proactively reached out to the marketing director of one of our agencies clients with an idea, the marketing director loved it, got the agency involved on it, and she grew the client spend by 400%. And she was 18 months in and I said to her, you will go far. When you tell that story to any agenc that's hiring, they will love that. And she  did, she's gone on to have a brilliant career, very, very successful. And you could see it from those early days. And I think that's the dream for a lot of agency leadership - people that can do that. Jenny  32:45I agree. And I've had that similar conversation with all the account managers, and that's why I put the Account Accelerator Program together is because of exactly what you said, most account managers don't feel that they necessarily are in sales, but they still need that skill of growing existing accounts. And you do not have to be a sleazy car salesman, in that connotation of sales, it really can be really seamless. So I'm with you. 100%. Phil  33:15Yeah, and I think it's a tough job, isn't it? I think we ask a lot of the account managers in the industry, and I think the workload is growing. And I think people are putting more on account handlers, which is tough, because I always thin  account managers get flack from every direction,it comes to left and right, and up and down. And that's a tough place to be, isn't it? It's a really tough spot to be in the agency. Jenny  33:46I spoke to David C. Baker about this. And he said it was the hardest job in the agency. And I think you're absolutely spot on it is, you do get flak from all directions. But if you are super ambitious, and you want to develop your career, then what better than to grow an existing account, because you will get the recognition, you'll get the career growth. And you know, and that demonstrates a huge level of productivity. So kudos to that girl that did that. So just in terms of currently, is there a big demand for account managers? Or is there a shortfall particularly? Phil  34:19Yeah, the demand for account managers is huge at the moment.  I have not known a demand like this in all the time I've been recruiting and I must counter that with what I was saying before about supply, and the supply is dwindling, of account managers. We're speaking to lots who are basically going client side or leaving the industry altogether, spoke to several you've left the industry all together to do something completely different. And I think the analogy I've been using for this is that I almost feel like the account handling recruitment market is like a game of musical chairs. And there's always some chairs empty. But there's always people moving around and sitting down on different chairs. So we've not quite noticed that there's not enough people in the game. Whereas now there's not as many people walking around, looking to sit down on a chair. So now we're noticing as an industry, there's a lot of empty chairs. And I don't know if that analogy makes sense. But that's how I've been been explaining it to people. And I think it's true that we just, we've always had a shortage, but it's been exacerbated by people leaving the industry and others may be just sitting tight in roles, because they're not confident to move yet. So there's just a demand out there that can't be satisfied at the moment. Jenny  35:54I love your analogies. Phil, it's really good. I'm just thinking about that. Is it like a perpetual situation where you've got a gap? You need some account managers, you haven't got them. So it puts pressure on the rest of them with extra work, and then they end up leaving. And then you get a new one in and but there's still a gap there? Phil  36:17I think that's a real issue, and could be one moving forward, because you know all these agencies that have got gaps they're looking to fill you're right, they'll be putting extra pressure on  existing staff. And that's not good in the long term. And I remember one agency many years ago  said to me with their account handlers, they always over staffed on their account handlers. They always had at least one or two more than they felt they needed, just to make sure that the workload never got too much, they were covered for holidays, they were covered if somebody left, and I thought what a really enlightened way to run an agency, and that agency never had any problems with account handlers leaving, they kept them for years, because they were never overworked. Jenny  37:11Wow, I'm sure there are a lot of people thinking about this. And because a lot of the time it's down to the business model, isn't it? Because we sell hours, we're always trying to make the profit margins work, and therefore, there's no scope to have people sitting there not doing much. And so there's always that balance, isn't it? I think that's a really great example of an agency that's obviously  probably had a different financial position that they could afford to do that. But it's worked out. Phil  37:41And I think it's a case of slightly more cost on staff, but if that saves you money on losing staff, and the problems of then re recruiting to replace them and you might utilise freelancers in that period when you're looking for someone, and that's got a cost assigned to it. So I think  it probably balanced out over time for the agency because they were investing properly in the people that they had in the building at that moment in time. Jenny  38:16I think you're right. So I'm thinking about agencies that might be listening to this thinking, right we need staff, it's taking ages, it's looks like it's putting pressure on the rest of the team. Can you share some tips or guidance for agencies who want to recruit the best team, you've already said have a dedicated talent manager, if you can, obviously, create a fantastic culture, and so that people are attracted. Open your vision a little bit in terms of looking at..open your mind to a candidate and not have the expectation of having four interviews, times are different,  anything else that you haven't said that you could add to that? Phil  39:03I think the flexibility angle is is really important at the moment. There's certainly, you know, applicants are looking for more flexibility than then they perhaps had in the past. That hybrid working model is really important to applicants at the moment people want that sort of two or three days in the office two or three days at home is really important. So to think about that because it can open up people that might not have ordinarily commuted to your location for five days, but they might do for two or three days. Which is a good option. I think as well there is still an issue I think with the industry being unsure about people working  three or four days a week and not being full time and I think we miss out on a lot of talent that leaves because they can't work three or four days a week. We had an agency quite recently that was looking for somebody. And we found them a very talented account manager, who had a young child and could only work three days a week. And, you know, good on them  they interviewed her, loved her, as said we'll make this work, because she was great, and she fitted, and they will make it work. I know of others that want to work three or four days a week and don't feel that an agency is the best place for them to do that. So I think we will lose some talent through the exit door in that situation. Jenny  40:43Have you had complaints from agencies who perhaps have been open to taking someone part time, and it hasn't worked out? What are they kind of saying to you? What's their nightmare scenarios that have happened? Anything? Phil  40:55I think it's about not being now when a client needs you, isn't it? That's the worry, isn't it, that you know that your day off is Friday, and the client emails on a Friday and you're not there, I think that's the worry. But even going back many years, I remember an agency where I found someone who wanted three days a week and the MD said I'm just not sure Phil, but let's do it on three months contract and see how it goes. And at the end of the three months, he said Phil, I'm completely sold. The amount of work that she gets through in three days, is putting other people to shame,  working five days, because she was so well organised on those three days, there was never a problem on the day she wasn't working. And I think we just need to, you just need to find solutions, whether that be a buddy system, a lot of people who will want to work three or four days a week will still check their emails on the days they're off. They will do it. I'm not saying it's right. But they are willing to do that for that sacrifice, to have that extra day that they might need for personal reasons. Jenny  42:11I suppose it comes down to, obviously, circumstances but also attitude, doesn't it? And does this fit? Will it work? And will the candidate do everything that they can to make it work plus the agency be flexible enough to kind of try to do anything they can behind the scenes to make it work? So you're right. I mean, so are you finding that any candidates are saying I want 100%? work from home? Phil  42:36Not really no, very few. I think there's a general thing, people have missed the office. And I think most people who work in agencies are, enjoy working with people, we're that type of animal, I think that wants to be in a room with other people. So I think there's some great things about working from home. And I think that not having to travel for client meetings as often I think is probably a real beneficial thing, not having to spend your day on a train down to London and back just for one meeting. I think there's real benefits to that. But I think everybody wants to, to be in the office at various points and understands that creativity is better created generally thinking  in a shared space with other people. So most people seem to want a hybrid model. Jenny  43:31Personally, because I started in agency so long ago, I find that actually, the positive that's come out of this pandemic is that there is more flexibility that people are being allowed to work from home some days. And even like you said, be a little bit more open about part time hours. Because I personally have seen so many of my friends, ex colleagues that have hit the childbearing age going off having babies and they're just thinking it's impossible to come back, agencies were so closed off to any kind of flexibility. Is that what you've seen? Phil  44:05Yeah, over the history of my work in an industry, yes, I would say that's always been the case. And whilst I like you, I'm hoping that what's happened over the last 15 months and that more open mindedness about flexible working might mean that it doesn't happen to the next generation. But also, maybe there's  a few people that could come back into the industry that thought they couldn't. When you've explained it like that as well. I think when you look at the the gender balance, within account handling, it's predominantly female, isn't it in most agencies as well. So it sort of enhances that problem that we've had over the years, doesn't it?  Jenny  44:54It's such a good point. And do you think also that agencies are more flexible with age, I mean be honest, are you seeing any ageism? Because obviously, it's a young industry, isn't it? Like creativity? It's dynamic. But personally, I think, perhaps I'm giving.. you tell me first and then I'll stop ranting. Phil  45:16I don't ageism is  as big a problem as it was. I think people are far more open minded now than they were 10 to 15 years ago. I think there is more of a focus on good people who get the job done are worth the weight and gold and I think most agency owners that I speak to a far more open minded now than perhaps people were 15-20 years ago.  Jenny  45:48I'm so glad to hear that actually. Because particularly in the current management function, if you're really super experienced account manager, you could be a huge asset. You don't have that reticence about picking up the phone to clients being a little bit more confident, opening doors. I don't know, I think it's a missed opportunity if people aren't being flexible with age. Phil  46:14I think one of the other things I've noticed as well, that I'd like to see more of is, is utilising people from different types of agencies as well. In particular, if you think about people who've worked in events agencies  have,  they've struggled over any period of time. And the people who have been account managers in those types of agencies have got great transferable skills. If you're an integrated agency or a digital agency, why could you not utilise someone with those skills, or somebody who's perhaps focused on point of sale? Why couldn't those skills if you work with great clients, and they've managed projects, and they get things done? Why couldn't a different type of agency pick them up and very quickly bring them up to speed in, in what you as an agency deliver? Because they've got the core skills. Jenny  47:13I think you're spot on. I think that's great, great advice. So also, can you give any tips or guidance for candidates, maybe that are looking for the right agency for them? Phil  47:25I think what you're finding at the moment, because agencies are aware of the shortage on the market, and have perhaps been looking for  a while, the agencies are tending to, to make offers after one meeting at the moment, I think, because they're so keen to get in there. And I understand that, and  I would encourage people to move quickly. But for from a candidate point of view, I'd always recommend going for a second meeting. You will find different things out, you will meet different people. And you'll think of more questions. So, I think rather than rushing into accepting a role,  do your due diligence, and go through it at your speed, don't feel like you have to accept a job because it's been offered after one meeting, feel like you can ask for another one. And also, I always think anyway ask yourself, what will you learn at this agency. How will working there see your skill set develop over the next couple of years. Regardless of what money they want to pay you,  and how they talk about  the type of things you'd be doing and the table tennis table and the pool table and the ballpits, the beanbags. What will you learn there in the next couple of years? And I think if you can give yourself a positive answer to that question, and that you can see yourself be in two years being bigger, better, more rounded, then it's probably a good place for you. So I always think that's a good way of looking at any new role. Jenny  49:13Good advice. And would you suggest that they also asked to speak to, I don't know, other members of the team? Because I'm always surprised that sometimes the recruitment happens in a vacuum.  And we certainly had a policy where I used to work that first interview was kind of a screening. But the second interview, if we thought that that was the right person, they would actually go out to lunch with the team. I went out to lunch with the team because everyone gets a say, to say, no, she's gonna fit in or I'm not sure. And actually, it makes everybody more bought into the decision. Phil  49:48Yeah, I think it's good advice for agencies in terms of their process.  Get more people involved who they'll be working with. It can just be a simple, quick coffee or a chat, but it will help your team regulate the hiring of the right people and from the candidates point of view, they'll good feel as to whether it's the type of place they want to work. So it's a win win, really, for everybody, isn't it?  Jenny  50:23Totally agree. Anything else, any other tips for candidates? Phil  50:27I think, just generally,  salaries could be thrown at you, money could be thrown at you by certain agencies. My advice would always be don't follow the money, your criteria about where you work, and where your career goals should never ever be about money, in my opinion. Now, other people may disagree with me, and that's fine. But I would always make career decisions based on other factors. Because I believe if you're talented, and you do a good job, that you will earn good money, and you'll earn a nice living. Well, you've got to enjoy it. You've got to enjoy what you do and enjoy the people the environment you work with, otherwise, the money won't matter. Jenny  51:15Yeah,  I love that philosophy. And what would those other factors be if it's not the money, what should candidates be looking for? Phil  51:24I think they need to be looking for an environment where they fee their personal well being is going to be looked after, as well as their professional development. And I think if you can find somewhere where your new agency is going to really look after you in those two areas. I think you'll stay for a long time, and you'll enjoy it. You'll feel looked after in all areas as well. Jenny  51:52What kind of, I might be putting you on the spot here, but what kind of questions should a candidate be asking at interview stage to try to determine whether the agency's going to be looking after their well being? Phil  52:02I think I'd be asking them do they have a policy on on well being? What's the policy on health? Do they have a mental health policy, I think is something that's growing these days that more and more agencies are having policies on mental health and personal well being. So I'd want to know what have they done so far for their people that are already there to look after their well being? What are you doing currently, that I will have access to? Jenny  52:37That's a killer question, actually feel that's the podcast value in gold right there so well done. How do you think, Phil, that the recruitment industry is going to be evolving over the next few years? Phil  52:51The way I see it going, and there was talk last year that the recruitment industry will change, because now we're doing everything on Zoom, there was lots of talk of, well, you know, you could recruit for jobs in different countries and jobs in different areas. And I think there was people getting excited about that. Whereas I think the way it will go is is delving more into niches, and really focusing  on the areas that you know, and that that you can add value to. And certainly that's what we're trying to do is really focusing on the types of roles and agencies we work with in the North, and really becoming that person that knows what's going on in our field, and builds deeper relationships. I think we've always tried to do that. But I think it's going to go even further, that it's going to be about relationships and knowledge. And  that's certainly what what we're trying to do is really focused on   building that reputation that, that as a business, we're people who are, we're not outside the industry, we're inside it, and we're part of it. And I think the things that we do like School of Thought and the Two+Two event and we run the Handle This event for account handlers as well, which is really good and like everything we do is to really be part of the industry and not diversify, and sort of dilute what we do. I think you need to make it stronger. Jenny  54:37It's like Marketing 101, actually, isn't it because you've niched in an industry and you've niched in an area and you've really drilled down to, as you say, develop those long standing relationships and becoming the expert and then also you've layered upon that, events and ways of attracting a pool of new people. So I think you've got a fantastic business model there. That's a really good piece of advice for other agencies listening to this. Anything else? Because you mentioned something that I just wanted to ask you this working remotely from different countries, are you seeing that there any agencies that are being flexible with hiring people in other countries or conversely, candidates who are thinking about relocating to Spain, for example, and wanting still to work in a UK based company. Phil  55:29There are one or two agencies that are open about hiring people from different countries. I think there's probably a few more that are open to hiring people within the UK in different locations. And  just getting them into the office every few weeks when needed. Not seeing too many candidates wanting to relocate, and work remotely. But I think that might be something that might come up. And I think we have seen people relocate, say, from London to Manchester carry on working for their London agency remotely, while they find a new agency in Manchester, and that's completely new, because it was always, if you found a job in Manchester and you were working in London, you'd have to hand you notice in and relocate, and start a new job in four weeks. And so I think it's opened things up in that way definitely, we might see more people wanting to go and I don't know live in Cumbria, in the Lakes or in Cornwall, and still work for London or Manchester agency, I think agencies will probably be open to that. Jenny  56:38I can see this happening. I think we're at the beginning of a trend of this happening. An as you say, because of the shortage of candidates, companies having to be a little bit more flexible about this. Phil, this has been brilliant, any final pieces of advice that perhaps we haven't covered that you think would be worth sharing? Phil  56:56No, the main thing I would say, though, is I'm always open to anybody who wants to reach out to me for advice, support, guidance, opinions.  I see myself as someone who will always answer any question anybody's got,  I'm always happy to help people. So if anybody has anything that they're struggling with, whether they be an agency that wants advice on something, or an applicant who's applying for a role and want some advice, I'll always help anybody. So people are more than welcome to get in touch. Jenny  57:30Oh, Phil, that's so lovely. And can you give your contact details, where's the best place to reach you? Phil  57:34The best place is probably LinkedIn. I think I'm very visible. I have a very recognisable profile picture of me and the dog. And people often recognise a picture and they recognise him more than me sometimes. So if you search Phil Cookson and you'll spot me on LinkedIn, definitely the best way to get hold of me. Jenny  57:55Brilliant, Phil, thank you so much. This has been brilliant. And I've really enjoyed talking to you about everything to do with the recruitment industry. So thank you so much for coming. Phil  58:04Thank you, Jenny. Thank you for having me. It's been brilliant. Thank you.  Jenny  58:07Absolute pleasure.

Useful Resources:Zoe's Substack "Musings of a wandering mind" where you can read all her latest posts on fandoms and her piece on misogyny in the ad industry "Mad Men Furious Women".Coverage of Zoe's misogyny article:The GuardianThe IndependentYouTuber (mentioned during the podcast): XanaduLinkedIn profile for YouTuber Cory Strassburger: https://www.linkedin.com/in/corystrassburger/Transcript:Transcript:Jenny  00:03So today's guest, I'm a huge fan of, her name is Zoe Scaman. She's the founder of Bodacious, a strategy studio that creates dynamic and culturally compelling brands. She's one of the most brightest strategic minds in the creative industry, and has a huge following on Twitter, where she generously shares her thoughts, observations and predictions about the ever evolving world of fandoms. She started her career as an account manager in an ad agency, which I find fascinating, moved quickly into strategy and then management consultancy. She's worked for many agencies, including Naked, Droga5 and with brands such as Adidas, Nike and Coca Cola. Before setting up Bodacious she was Global Head of strategy for Ridley Scott Creative Group. And my level of adoration for Zoe has just gone up a few notches because she's written a magnificent piece and a very moving piece on her Substack recently called Mad Men, Furious Women, all about misogyny in the ad industry. It's literally exploded. She's appeared in The Guardian, Campaign, Adweek and the Times Radio. And we will talk a little bit about that later. But Zoe welcome! Zoe  01:13Thank you very much for having me. Jenny  01:15Would you mind spending a few minutes talking about your career journey, particularly why you moved out of account management? And how different is working with your clients now at Bodacious versus during your time in agencies? Zoe  01:30Sure, I mean, it's a long rambling journey. So I'll try and make it as succinct as possible. I started out accidentally in advertising when I was 18. So I basically went and did six months in Greece, didn't sit my A level exams, because I was going through a rebellious patch, came back, realised I couldn't go to university without the A levels and so I was like right, I need to find a job somehow. And back then you still found jobs in papers. So I went into a local paper, and I found a job. And it just said "bright enthusiastic person wanted for a startup". And it was right place right time, to be honest. So it was in Guildford in Surrey. It was a small agency that specialised in pay per click, so sort of search marketing. My first client was a pornography website, which was very interesting, because my job was to source keywords and write ads. So I learned a lot about all the different factions of pornography that were very popular! But they also had created a software which at the time was groundbreaking. So you could actually track what people did on your website after they clicked on a Google link. So that might seem really provincial now but at the time, it was a really big deal. And what that allowed me to do was to travel up to London, and basically sell this software to the bigger agencies and wear different hats while I was with them. And suddenly my eyes were just opened to this huge world, that to be totally honest, I had absolutely no idea even existed. And I was walking into agencies like Walker Media and seeing Christine Walker, who was just terrifying and formidable and incredible, and her table of women and they're all smoking in the office at that stage, and I was like, wow, I want to be like them when I grow up! So I then moved to London, got a job in an agency there, moved into kind of account management within digital advertising, which was still relatively new at the time. Then I left there and moved to Australia, where I went to Media Comm, still account management. So I was an account director at that stage, super young, probably way too young to be an account director, and leading a team. But that was kind of soon bought crashing down to earth when I realised that I was completely incapable of doing it. So then I moved into strategy. Then I moved into Australia's first social media agency, which was a little bit before its time and we went bankrupt after nine months, but it's an amazing journey. And then I ended up at Naked, which is where I really cut my teeth in understanding strategy and really getting under the table (?) of that. And I worked on Coca Cola for two years across Australia and New Zealand, we did Share a Coke which was the names on cans that originated from there, and then went up to 72 countries worldwide, which was incredible. And then I moved on to a number of different agencies. I went to Universal McCann, I moved back to London, I went to Glue and ran Kellogg's digital globally as well. Then I moved into kind of management consultancy, so I wanted to go more into the nuts and bolts in terms of how a business operated, where we were getting into barriers when it comes to socialising and sharing ideas internally. So I went to an agency or not really an agency, a consultancy called London Strategy Unit. And my first job was with Adidas. So I basically moved to Nuremberg in Bavaria, which was interesting, middle of nowhere for a few months, and rewrote, Adidas's global marketing planning process, which was just fascinating. Because for the first time, I was firmly on the other side of the table. And I was really understanding how different functions within the business communicated, how they operated, how they interacted, how the agency relationship came to be. And I realised actually how little the agencies really mattered in the grand scheme of things. It was like 5% of the brain power that the clients were thinking about the vast majority of the time, the rest of what they had to concentrate on and what they had to juggle was just vast and I think really understanding that helped me. I then moved to New York for a bit. And I went into a management consultancy there called Undercurrent because I really wanted to be at the forefront of where that space was going. So I worked with Al Gore's Climate Reality Project to work with PepsiCo and American Express, which was fascinating. Then I moved back, I did more client side work with Adidas. And then I fell into Droga5. And I'd been freelancing with Droga5 before but this was kind of more falling into it in a more full time capacity. But due to my nature, I then kind of got itchy feet. And I was like, right, I'm going to Ethiopia. And so I basically got a job doing an international development project in Ethiopia with Nike Foundation, I'd never done any of that kind of stuff before. I was a complete fool. So I was like, I've googled Ethiopia, I get it, it's fine. And I landed in Addis Ababa in the middle of a tribal warfare, national emergency with UN peacekeepers, and all this kind of stuff. And I was like, Oh, my God! What have I done? And the internet was turned off, and I couldn't get hold of my parents. And you know, we had to have safety protocols and bodyguards and all this kind of stuff. And it was just fascinating, because I think it was probably one of the most humbling experiences of my life. Because at that stage, I'd done very, very well, in my career, I was flying, I was quite cocky, to be honest. And I thought I knew everything and landing in a country like that, in that context, where all of the rules that you have learned so far in the Western world do not apply. That is not how they do business. That's not how you're going to get traction, you have to basically swallow the fact that you have no idea what you're doing. You have to get comfortable with learning and relearning all over again. And you've got to figure out a new path forward, where all of your old tricks of the trade and all of your old knowledge about how to communicate and get work done is just gone. So that was amazing. And I'm so glad that I did it at that point in my career, because I needed to be kind of knocked off my perch a little bit I think. Then I came back to Droga, stayed there for a while, totally burnt out. And then I left and kind of went back to freelancing a little bit until I started actually, kind of I think I can level this up. So I wanted to start my own thing, my own consultancy with Bodacious. So I launched it and started looking for bigger projects. Then I got headhunted by Ridley Scott, which was surprising because I was like, why do you want to hire me? I've never worked in entertainment before. And I was his Global Head of Strategy. And I agreed that I would do that about 50/50. So I'd keep Bodacious and do that 50% of the time. In reality, it was more 70/30, 80/20, obviously more towards Ridley. But it was a fascinating experience. And I got exposed to, again, a totally different world, but I had no idea about any of it. Most of the time, I'd be sitting in a meeting and it would be like listening to another language in terms of what they were talking about. But that learning curve was fascinating. I got exposed to some incredible people who I'm still connected to now. And it really started to broaden my horizons when it came to the landscape of entertainment, the future of entertainment, which then led me into kind of fandoms and the metaverse. Then I obviously pulled in the brand strategy element that I'd had previously. And that really started to shape the direction that I am in now and really started to kind of push me down a particular path, which I think I'm now kind of consolidating. Jenny  08:20Wow, I mean, that that is a hell of a journey, isn't it? As well, I'm just like, my jaw is just dropping as you were just explaining that. I mean, as you said, it must be hugely mind expanding to have experienced so much. And I'm just curious now, how do you end up working with clients who you can offer all of these facets to? Because like you said, when you started working in management consultancy, you realised that what an agency actually does is a small part of that, but having the bigger picture as well. So how do you attract your type of client that you want to work with at Bodacious now? Zoe  08:57The type of client that normally comes to me are the ones that have got really complex questions and no clear solutions. And so because they don't really know what the solution might be, they don't know who to hire. So they can't necessarily say this is an advertising brief, or they can't necessarily say this is a CRM brief, or this is a television production brief, or something around that or this is a management consultancy brief because they just don't know. And that's where I come in. Which is, I almost kind of fit at the top with those sort of complex problems. And mostly, the problems, they come to me with just one sentence. And I can then look at it and stick with it and figure it out and kind of dive into all of the different areas around it. And then I can figure out where that needs to go next. So it might be an advertising brief, it might be that they need to start thinking about building entertainment properties. It might be that they've got their audience wrong, it might be that they need to go into new product development, it might be that the distribution strategy is wrong that they need to move into a new category. But I think that having the ability to be a bit of a Swiss Army Knife and be able to consult on all of those different levels is starting to become a skill that's more and more in demand. I call it just being a generalist. But I think a lot of people assume that a generalist is a kind of negative connotations, so it's like a jack of all trades. But obviously, the jack of all trades quote is actually a lot misunderstood. So people think it's a jack of all trades, master of none. And we forget the last piece, which is 'oftentimes better than a master of one'. And I think that really resonates with me. And so the vast majority of them, as I said, they come to me because I can look at it holistically and be like, right, I think it might be a little bit of an advertising brief. But I also think you need to look at category expansion, but I also think you need to sort packaging out. But I also think you need to start thinking about gaming development or something around that. And that tends to be where they come from. Jenny  10:52Amazing. You can you've got the ability to see the bigger picture, and then presumably, pull in the elements that they need later down the track once you've kind of sorted out the problem. So yeah, is that true? Zoe  11:04Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of the time as well, I will find myself in a sphere or an area where I also don't know enough about the area. And so it's brilliant for me, because I just keep learning. And I'm very open with clients that I'm not a specialist in every single one of these areas. And so I will bring specialists in to help consult on that stuff. But I also think the clients are quite open minded to the fact that there's a certain subset of things that I have no clue about, and we can learn together. And they're not scared of hiring someone that is a generalist that doesn't necessarily have deep, deep, skills or knowledge in any particular area. Jenny  11:43So obviously, you've talked a lot about the evolving creative economy and fandoms. I know you recently wrote a huge piece on this. And you've actually come up with a formula for fandoms. Is that because you were asked so many times, what is the fandom? Zoe  11:57It is, and it's also because I think I was confusing people. So I started talking about fandoms, probably about two years ago. Then I started talking about gaming. And then I started talking about the metaverse and then I started with my cryptocurrency and especially with the cryptocurrency people were just like, 'What are you talking about? Why are you talking about blockchain? And why are you talking about currencies in this sense? It doesn't make any, there's no link?' And I was like, actually there is. It's all linked together. The creation economy is linked with fandoms, is linked with new entertainment models, is linked with blockchain. And everyone's like, no, don't see it, don't see it. You're completely off your rocker, you don't really understand what you're talking about. I was like, right, okay. I need to pull all of this together into some sort of thesis that shows people how I'm thinking and why I think it's woven together in this area. And so that's where it came from. Because I think I'd been banging on about so many bits and pieces that looked like disparate fragments. But to me, they were all perfectly glued into one central thesis and one central mega trend. And people were just not following along, probably because I was kind of static running all the time. And they didn't really see the links, and they didn't have the time to sit with it in the way that I did. So I just wanted to put something out into the world that showed them the picture that I was seeing. Jenny  13:14Can you give us an example where it fits together that would highlight how simple it is? Or conversely, can you talk to us about that actual formula? Would that, to simplify it so that people can get, I know that you've written a huge piece on this? But is there a way to summarise it so that people can understand it in a really simplistic form? Zoe  13:40Sure. So I mean,when we talk about fandoms, a lot of people think about screaming teenage girls, like Beatlemania, One Direction, maybe even think about Trekkies from Star Trek, or Star Wars fans or Comic Con or something like that. Fandoms have been around for decades and decades and decades. But what we're seeing now is an unleashing of them in a way that they are becoming a dominant, basically force within culture, within commerce, and they're starting to actually drive huge trends in terms of entertainment in terms of brands in terms of spending power, in terms of creativity. And I was looking at, how do I summarise this and a formula that kind of makes sense. And the formula that I've got is: Community times Autonomy times Equity. So the community piece, the deep dive in there is, we are coming up with new platforms. So beyond social, so beyond kind of Facebook and Instagram and that kind of stuff. There are new platforms emerging that are all built for vertical niches. So the more kind of niche and weird your interest is, the more these platforms are catering to you so you can really find your tribe. And the interesting thing about that is the shift towards interest networks. So social networks like Facebook and Instagram, normally, when you first set up your Facebook profile, you would be friending people that you actually knew in real life. So you might friend Like the person that you went to school with 10 years ago, or you might friend your aunt, or you might friend your hairdresser or something like that. But it was people that you knew. The problem with that is that you might know them in real life, but you actually might not share any interest with them. So your aunt might be going off on a kind of a right wing nutcase job on Facebook talking about conspiracy theories, your hairdresser could be talking about a boat that she's doing up or something, but it's not necessarily your interest area. But now what we're seeing is interest networks. So TikTok is an interest network. So you can go on to TikTok and you can set up a profile, and you don't have to follow or friend anybody. What will happen is the 'for you page', your homepage, will just start to serve you content. And the algorithm that sits behind it will just learn very, very quickly the type of content that you react to depending on how long you spend with the video, how fast you swipe past it, if you follow that person after you've seen the video, that kind of stuff. And the algorithm starts to then serve you more and more content based on what you like. And then before you know it, you found yourself in some sort of deep TikTok cults or tribe, which is all around the niches that you love. And that nicheness is becoming more and more popular not just on TikTok but also on platforms like Discord and all that kind of stuff. I mean, you can go on Discord, which was set up for gamers to be able to communicate while they were gaming with World of Warcraft or Call of Duty and now you can find a channel all about reptile lovers, or knitting patterns or something like that. It's insane. So I think the fact that we're bringing together these niches and these tribes, and they're becoming more and more vibrant little communities, because they're so passionate about whatever it is that they're putting up on a pedestal. it's really, really interesting. And those platforms, as I said, we didn't have them before. And now we do so about unlocking and connecting these niches like never before, then the second part of the equation is autonomy. And the autonomy side of things is about allowing fans and allowing people who are passionate about a certain intellectual property like Marvel, for example, or music or something like that to actually create alongside the artist or alongside the IP, so they can kind of spin out their own ideas. And previously, we've had this to a certain extent, we've always had fan fiction, we've always had kind of fan stories or kind of fan spin offs, but we've never taken it seriously. It's always lived in the depths of like Reddit or something, or a deep fan forum. You know, there's there's been stories for Star Trek for ages, for example, about Spock and Captain Kirk falling in love, and getting married, and all those kinds of things. But the problem was that what the studios did is if they gained any traction with those fanfictions, the studios would send them a cease and desist letter. And fanfiction for them was fun until it got out of hand, and they didn't want it to kind of become mainstream. But now what we're seeing is it is becoming mainstream. And again,these new platforms that are coming out, are enabling fan fiction, fan created songs, fan created art, fan created merchandise, to rise almost to the level of official in some capacity, which is just fascinating. And that is unleashing a new form of creativity that we've never seen before. And now what's happening is some brands who are very smart, are waking up to this, and they're actually encouraging the fans to create ideas from their existing intellectual property that they then might turn into movies and comic books and merge lines. And Lego is one of them. So Lego realised that there's lots and lots of fanfiction going on around their characters. And they were finding it on amateur Publishing platforms. And they were like, this is amazing. But we don't own this. And we can't do anything with it. If it's disparate, and it's all across these different platforms. So they've set up a platform called Lego World Builder, where they're encouraging fans to write stories to write screenplays to do designs. And then they're allowing the community within Lego World Builder to up vote or to endorse the stories that they love. And they're doing that because what they want to do is they want to use the fans in order to be able to create new ideas, new movies, new Lego sets, new worlds, and they're giving the fans who create those a share in the equity as well. So it's only been around for about six months, but they've already got two projects out of the back of it. So one of them is a short film around Ninjago. So Ninjago is a kind of ninja Lego character. And a fan wrote a short screenplay for Ninjago. And they're turning it into a production. They also had a challenge around world building, so a whole universe, for example. And somebody came up with a universe called Holiday Heroes, which is basically a little planet where all of our holiday icons live, like the Easter Bunny, and the leprechaun from St. Paddy's Day, and Santa Claus, and all this kind of stuff, and they all live together. And they're actually turning that into a new Lego set. And that then could become a movie franchise, and it could become a comic book and it could become a merch line. And so they're starting to realise that fans are not just there to passively consume the centralised control stories that we put out there, but they are also a font of new creativity and new ideas, and we should be finding ways to tap that and unleash it in some capacity. So that's the kind of secondary piece of the formula. And then the final piece of the formula is equity. So equity basically means we really should be paying fans if they're coming up with this stuff. We can't just do it for free and then we make loads of money off the back of their ideas and their IP. And fans are starting to wake up to this as well, because what's happening with the creator of the economy, so you know, the Youtubers, the TikTokers, is that kind of stuff, during the pandemic, they started pioneering ways to pay fans back to their attention. So if you're on Patreon, for example, and you're a YouTuber, and I'm a fan, I might pay a certain access tier, which means that I get, I'm in a whatsapp group with my creative that I love. And they WhatsApp me once a week, and I pay $100 for it or something like that. But then that patronage needs to be repaid in other ways. And maybe as a result of that, I get exclusive access to much that nobody else gets, or maybe I get a share of the royalties of the song that they're creating, because I've given feedback in a closed group as to where I think the chorus should go, or something like that. And so what's happening is we're seeing the blurring of the lines between the artist and the creator and the fan, in terms of their input, but also their terms of being able to share in the financial upside as well. Because when you're a fan, say you're a teenage girl, and you're a One Direction fan, you get a warm, fuzzy feeling from advocating for that band and their music. And when you see them do well, you feel good, because you're a fan. But what if you could also turn that advocacy for the band into money? So if I had bought a token or a share, for example, in One Direction when they first came out, because I love them so much but I also believe in their power to be able to explode all over the planet, then when their success increases, and when their popularity increases and their financial value increases, so does the value of the share that I've bought. And that's what we're starting to see more and more. And that's where the crypto side of things comes in. Because we've never really had the ability to provide tokens or currencies to fans that are fully transparent in terms of their value and their upside, but also their ability to automatically do kickbacks and pay back like dividends and all that kind of stuff. We've just never had it. And now what we're seeing is we're seeing new platforms built on top of the blockchain, for this purpose so they're creating creator currencies, fan tokens. You know, there's one company called Socios, which is a fan token company, and they are reinventing sports. So now, Juventus, Man City, Real Madrid, all of those football clubs around the world are working with Socios to create fan tokens. So fans can actually buy into the club. And at the moment, it's quite basic in terms of what those tokens buy you. So they buy you like an equity share of some kind. But they also buy you, depending on how many tokens you hold, voting rights. So you know, if you're holding a certain amount of tokens, amongst other fans, you can vote for the song that the team is going to walk onto the pitch to. You can vote how they decorate their tour bus, you can vote on the next jerseys they bring out, for example for the match. And so that's kind of quite basic, but it's only because they're so new, and they're still testing the waters. So it transforms you from fan to owner or fan to investor. And you can also start to govern and make choices. And be that as I said, it could be music could be football related, could be choices in terms of a movie that someone's making, and what the ending is, or if they're multiple endings, could be game development, there's so much potential to it. And again, we have never had these tools before. And that's why it's kind of unlocking it. So when you start to kind of dive into community, as I mentioned, it's all about niches coming together really passionate groups of people that have never been able to find each other before, then you've got autonomy. So they're also able to create, they're able to come up with their own ideas, but also to push those are their own ideas into kind of mainstream acceptance. And then you've got equities, so the ability to actually reward them and help them share in the upside of whatever it is that they create, whether they actually be developing something or they're just advocating for you as well. So when you tie those three pieces together, you start to see that the way that fandom is shifting and unleashing is going to mean an entirely new landscape for brands, for creators, for IP, for games, for movies, for music, for everything. And that's why he's got me so excited about this space. Jenny  24:16Wow, I can see why you're so excited. It feels like the future Zoe doesn't it? Zoe  24:20Yes. Jenny  24:21And I suppose as you said, we're at the very beginning of this. Are there, what do you see as the barriers to some companies currently kind of adopting this way of thinking? Zoe  24:34So many barriers, so many. The first and probably most common barrier is fear of loss of control. We have got to such a way of thinking within brands, within entertainment, that it's all about quality control and quality control can only happen if you centralise it and if you hold on really, really tight and you perfect all of the edges and nobody messes about with your IP. And to a certain extent, that is true. So you know, when you're looking at movies like Marvel, the quality of those movies is just increasing and increasing and increasing because the core team behind them are getting into a rhythm. And that's why, every Marvel series that's been released on Disney Plus has been better than the one that came before. So that's true. But you also need to open up this idea of decentralising your IP and kind of letting go of your IP to a certain extent as well. And you don't need to do it in terms of you're never going to have well, you might I'm not going to say never, never, but you're never going to have fans creating a gigantic Hollywood blockbuster together. They're probably not going to get to that stage because they don't have the expertise. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't come up with interesting stories or tangents or creations that could then in some capacity feed into what it is that you do next. Or small side projects that you might explore, because it gives fans the ability to feel like they're more sticky within that particular universe or that realm because they feel like they've got the ability to create and to share. But also, creativity, I think, as we're learning, can come from everywhere. And when we first had social media talking about, crowdsourcing and that kind of stuff, we got into a way of thinking that we were just like, right, you know, people can create stuff, that's fine, but most of its going to be shit. And it was, because they didn't have the tools. But now look at what happens when you put just a really simplistic tool like TikTok into the hands of the public, and the creativity and the new trends and the ideas and the means and the cultural currency that has been birthed from allowing the general public to have their own tools for creativity and development. And the cream always rises to the top. So we're not saying that everybody has the capacity to do this. But we're saying it's so much more democratised and decentralised than you had previously imagined. So that idea of giving over a percentage of control, or letting fans play around with your IP and reimagine it in their own lens is terrifying for the vast majority of businesses, because they just don't know how to handle those conversations. And IP, you know, is surrounded by legal parameters and copyrights and all that kind of stuff as well. And they've got to be careful on that front. But there are possibilities. As I mentioned, with Lego world builder, you can do it if you open it up. But I think a lot of clients are just assuming that the quality is going to be really bad that it's not worth the hassle. And they don't really understand what they would do if they did open up their IP as well. So that kind of scares the crap out of them. I think the equity piece also terrifies them. So this idea of moving into kind of blockchain and cryptocurrency and fan tokens, and they don't really know where to start. So the vast majority of clients that come to me say I want to get into gaming, or I want to get into crypto. But gaming is huge and multifaceted. And so is crypto and so it's not just about getting into the space or getting into the technology, it's thinking about what role do we play within that space? And what role do we create for our consumers in that space as well. So I think a lot of it is uncertainty, it's uncomfortable. They feel like it's almost too futuristic. But then they're also worried about being left behind. And the pace of change is terrifying. And they also don't have the skill sets necessarily in house to be able to do this. There's very, very few people, clients that understand cryptocurrency and blockchain. There's very, very few people that understand gaming unless they're actually in a gaming studio themselves. And so that is probably the biggest barriers is lack of knowledge. And that lack of knowledge leads to a kind of head in the sand mentality. And also just clinging on to the way we've always done things because that feels like it's manageable and it feels like it's less overwhelming than trying to face this kind of barrage of new. And it's constantly coming out and trying to wrap their heads around it. Jenny  28:37Yeah, lots of reasons there. And I saw that recently, you shared a guy who's kind of emerging as a really interesting YouTuber who's created his own metaverse. You shared the example, I watched the video and I just thought I could not believe the quality of the production that he put together. And everyone, I read all the comments saying, this is just going to be huge. So it's almost like individuals now with the tools that are at their disposal are becoming a little bit threatening for bigger organisations that have spent, I don't know, months or years putting productions together. Do you think? Zoe  29:19100%. Yes, so the guy that you're mentioning is Cory Strassburger. And Cory is an animation artist but also your works with Unreal Engine and that kind of stuff as well, which is from Epic who make Fortnight and he's created a character called Blue and Blue lives in Xanadu, which you would have seen from the YouTube, but he created all of that, every single aspect of that episode was created by one person, which is just insane because it's almost like Hollywood level production, and storytelling. And what's so fascinating is that world that he's created, that could turn into a movie franchise, it could turn into gaming, it could turn into a merch line. It could turn, he could actually birth fictional brands within that universe that then become real brands in the real world, it is just gigantic. And you know, I think18 months ago, maybe a little bit more, I said on Twitter, creators will be the new brands. And I got absolutely annihilated for saying that. That I was an idiot, that I didn't understand the space, that there's no way that creators could ever rival brands that, brands had huge supply chains and infrastructure and all this kind of stuff. And I am looking at it now 18 months later, and I was like, I was right. And that's what's going to happen, because Cory can then turn Xanadu, as I said, into an entire world with the tools that he now has at his disposal, if he wants to create a merch line. So you know, hoodies, t shirts, all this kind of stuff, he can use a contact in China, and then he can do drop shipping. So he doesn't actually have to have a factory or a warehouse or anything, it just all gets automatically made online. Drop shipping has completely changed the merch landscape. That's why new Teespring is huge in that space. They've partnered with TikTok to allow all the TikTok creators to create their own merch lines. So they can actually rival the supply chains of the big brands, but they don't actually have to know what they're doing. They just have to press a couple of buttons and it's done. And it goes out to their fans.  And then I'm also saying, let's talk about teenagers. Teenagers have only got a certain amount of disposable income. And if they're going to buy three hoodies in the course of three months for example, and one of those hoodies is Xanadu and Blu and Corey, and another one is Addison Rae on TikTok, that only leaves one hoodie left for them to buy a brand. And so the actual power and the influence of the brands is shrinking, while the power and the influence of the creators is rapidly increasing. And also, these people are closer to us because we feel like we've got some sort of parasocial relationship with them. We get to know them. They're not faceless, like an Adidas or something like that. They're actually a real person. And so we feel like we've got a vested interest in supporting them. They feel like we know them in some way. And that parasocial relationship is incredibly powerful in terms of what it can actually then burst with fandoms and products spin offs. You've got YouTubers and TikTokers making coffee brands. There's too young TikTokers, I forget their names now, but between them, they've got like 20 million, 30 million followers. Red Bull approached them and said, 'We would love for you to sponsor Red Bull'. And the kids, like they're 19 and 20, turn around and they were like, 'Oh, that's a great idea, we'll just create our own energy drink'. And so they did. And so now, you know, they've got an energy drink with a distribution network of 30,000 teenagers, and they can rival you know, Red Bull. So Red Bull can no longer just basically rent them as a distribution network. Instead, they have the capability of building their own brands from scratch. There's a company called Piatra, who just got $15 million worth of funding last week. And Pietra is designed specifically to allow creators to easily make their own products, and then send them on to their fans as well. So all of these tools and infrastructures and supply chains and manufacturing, we have never had this capability before. But now, if I'm a creator, and I've never made a product in my entire life, I can press a couple of buttons on Piatra, I put a link in my TikTok profile, and voila, I'm a brand. Jenny  33:12It really is an exciting time. Funnily enough, a few years ago, I was teaching the private label model for a few years where you can reverse engineer what's selling on Amazon. Work out how to change the product to make it more appealing to the customer and then go and source the product from a manufacturer as a private label brand. And then you put your own brand on it create your own brand. And you can sell it back on the on the Amazon platform. So funnily enough, I was teaching that for a while. So this is like everything's coming together, isn't it? And it feels like a long time coming for the creator. Because it wasn't that many years ago that suddenly all of their music was being downloaded for free. And then they had to start gigging, didn't they, to actually earn money? So it feels like it's the rise of the creator, as you say, the rise of the creator economy. So how does the traditional agency fit currently Zoe? I mean, it sounds like this is a massive movement, it's obviously going to evolve and change and grow. Do you have any examples of agencies that are helping their clients navigate this? Or how do you think the agency model is faring in this quickly changing world? Zoe  34:28I think it's terrifying. For them, I would be terrified. Because the way that the vast majority of business models are set up, doesn't work in this space. It's too expensive. It's too slow. It's too heavy in terms of overheads. And it's like tunimg around an oil tanker. And that's incredibly challenging. I'm not saying that's all agency, some agencies are a bit more nimble, and they can figure out this space. But the vast majority of agencies are incentivized to continue to feed the conveyor belt and the sausage factory that they've set up, which means, big long kind of pitch processes, there's very few retainers these days so you actually can't really track your cash flow, in terms of knowing that a client's going to be with you for a year or two years or something like that, because most of the projects are project based. And so you pitch and you put all of this effort and energy, which is normally free, into getting a client who's only going to be a project, then you throw a big team against it, and you over inflate the prices of the team because you have to, because there's no other way to try and make that money back. And then they all work quite slowly, that's what happens when you've got lots and lots of people trying to work together in an agency field. So you're less nimble. Then you create a kind of more traditional ad product, so be that film or something like that, which you then put out into the world. And given the speed of culture, it's forgotten in 24, or 48 hours. And I'm not saying that doesn't necessarily work in some cases. People do, obviously, still watch television. If you make a 32 second ad, and you can chuck it on television, over the course of six months, that's still going to work to a certain extent on brand building, but it's not going to get you the kind of cultural aspects that you need, it's not going to help you really build relationships with creators, it's not going to help you explore fandoms, it's not going to help you explore new business models and they just don't have these capabilities in house right now. And so I think they need to build those pretty quickly if they can. I'm not convinced that the vast majority of them actually can, I think it's too late. And you just have to look at the market caps of the big agency groups, which are shrinking, and it just shows you potentially where it's going to go to next. I think what could be quite exciting is the renaissance around Indie shops. So a lot of people are leaving agencies, there was a piece in Ad Age, I think that was published two weeks ago, it was more US centric, but I think it's applicable globally, basically saying that people are leaving that advertising agency jobs in droves after the pandemic, because they're first of all, like, fuck this, I'm exhausted, I've been getting paid absolutely nothing, what do I actually do this for? It's just an ad, I'm not saving lives here. And the the culture of overwork, is just relentless. So I think a lot of them are going right, after the pandemic, I need to look at my life again, and really think about what it is that I want here and how I want to be, and then leaving. And with that loss of talent, what we're going to see is we're going to see the freelance market explode, we're going to see little pods of people start to gravitate towards each other and little collectives, we're going to see the birth of lots of new smaller shops and smaller agencies. And I think that's really exciting, because I actually think that there's going to be new forms of creativity born off the back of that. And for me, personally, I love this idea of a kind of Avengers Assemble model, where you bring together the right partners and the right collectors for the right projects, you work together for a period of time, you get that project done, and then you disband. And it gives you so much more flexibility in terms of  squaring up talent, in terms of working with lots of interesting people, the ability to learn as you go, actually being connected to partners that maybe you've not done anything in that sphere that area before. And I think that, for me feels much more exciting. But I think the bigger agencies, the ones that are quote, unquote, more established, and it's going to be a really, really rocky period for them. Jenny  38:04I think you're absolutely right. Because also, during this period, a lot of people have worked from home. And I suppose they've thought, well, I can do this all from home, I've got my client, and I'm doing everything. It's not like, hey, what do I need? And I think that's probably some agency owners and the management, senior management are kind of threatened by that, probably. But I think I think you're right. Let's talk a bit about the agency culture as well, because I don't want to leave this interview without kind of touching on the the article that you wrote a while ago. And personally, I felt very triggered by it. Because with a few of your own examples, I resonated with it. So do you mind sort of talking about why you wrote that piece about misogony in the in the ad industry? Zoe  38:50So I was having a coffee with a female strategist over from New York, and we've not met before, and we were just having a bit of a chat. And we were very, very quickly into this space of warning each other about who to work with, who not to work with, where was slightly safer, where was not. We were sharing some horror stories. And then we kind of woke up to that fact. And we were just oh my god, this is not normal. Like, why are we having this conversation? Why are we now, as women in our mid 30s, warning each other about how to stay safe in a workplace and who to avoid. This is insane. And then we started talking about just how deep rooted sexism and misogyny is in the culture and the business. And that post Me too, we didn't think that that much had changed. We felt like there was less overt sexual kind of harassment and that kind of stuff, because you knew that you couldn't get away with it. But that didn't mean that it had gone anywhere. It just meant that it was kind of buried and coming out in other facets. And we basically said something needs to be written about this. And so I went home and I started writing and I went on to Twitter. And I said, Look, I'm going to write this piece. If anybody wants to share their stories with me, please do so, you can be anonymous if you like. But I do think that using the stories brings it to life, so much more so than just stats and a kind of more generic piece. And I was absolutely inundated. And the stories that you see in the piece are about 10% of what I actually got. And then obviously, once I published it, it just exploded. So I think now I'm sitting on like, 700 stories roughly, and they're all around the world. They're Australia, Germany, they're France, they're the Philippines. They're Hong Kong, they're North America, absolutely everywhere. And it's just happening all the time. And again, a lot of people think that, that's advertising in the 80s and 90s, or it's the Mad Men era and that can't possibly happen anymore. But the vast majority of the stories that I got happened in the last few years. And you know, some of them actually happened last year, for example, like some horrific stories, but in the middle of the pandemic as well, which is crazy. And I think we just need to open up that conversation again, and realise that we are not done and dusted. And after the last #Metoo movement, some symbolic heads rolled, which was fine, but the management teams that enabled them and protected them did not, and they are still in place. And so we did what we had to do to get rid of that spotlight. And we did some lovely pledges. And we talked about #feminism, and time's up, and all this kind of stuff, we didn't do anything, there was no policy change. And so that behaviour is still very much happening. And I wanted to shine a gigantic floodlight on the fact that we may think that we're progressive and liberal and innovative and #diversity and Black Lives Matter and all of that kind of stuff. But it is just lipstick on a pig. And we need to do so much better when it comes to real policy change with teeth. But we're very, very good at over communication. We're very, very good at lovely words. We're very good at pledges, we're very good at codes of conduct, but we don't enforce any of that in a way that matters. Jenny  41:57And you've become an accidental hero, haven't you? Because I mean, I think like myself, so many women just feel so, finally, someone's actually making this public. And, I know that the likes of Cindy Gallup have talked about it in the past, but it just feels like it's fresh again. And personally, when I read that article, things like that were happening in the early 90s. And I was absolutely shocked to see that it was still happening. So I know a number of people feel furious. But what actually can people do now? I know that you've said that several things need to change. But obviously, you're not, you don't particularly want to be the one leading this charge, do you? Zoe  42:39Not really. It's not that I don't want to. It's that I can't. I don't work in HR, I don't work in law. I'm not a professional DNI person. I don't work in lobbying or anything like that. What I saw my role as is the ability to write in such a way that I let them match. And just as you said, this work has been going on for years and years and years, way before I came along. The likes of Cindy, as you mentioned, she's been fighting this fight for decades arguably. Kat Gordon, from the 3% conference, there's so many other women who have been pushing in the right direction for change. And the difficulty is that, again, because of the speed of culture, because of the cyclical nature of the way that advertising culture works, is we get really excited, really outraged for like two days, and then we just forget, and we drop the ball and nothing happens. And that happened with the first Meteor movement, happened with Black Lives Matter, it's probably going to happen with my piece as well. And so, I think what we need to keep doing is we need to keep lighting those matches. And so that was all I did, is just light another one. And we need to keep doing that to make sure that the energy and the focus is remaining on this space. But we also need to support the programmes and the incentives that are already happening. And you know, when we first had the 3% conference, there was a big hoo ha about how amazing it was. And then people just kind of dropped off. And they didn't support Kat and her mission and the way that they should have. And that was very hard for her because it's such uphill work. And it's exhausting as well, because this change is incremental, it's generational, we are not going to see a gigantic change in our lifetimes, it's not going to happen. That doesn't mean we give up. That means we keep pushing, and we keep trying to change things for the next generation that comes after us. But that is tiring. And so you need to be able to rest. You need to be able to recuperate your energy. And then you need to light the match again, and kind of off you go. And I think, I'm trying to not lose the momentum of the piece that I wrote. And there's a couple of things that I'm pushing with. So I know I've pulled together some industry bodies, most specifically in the UK, who work, in women's initiatives and LGBTQIA initiatives. And we're trying to come together to see if we can all push in the right direction on NDAs, for example. The government committed in the middle of 2019. They were going to pass some legislation on the inappropriate use of MBAs in the cases of sexual harassment, bullying and discrimination. And they said they would pass that legislation but there's not been a date as to when that's going to happen. But the fact that it's coming, that's precedent for the fact that it is, and it will be a thing. So we could actually write an overview of what agencies should do and what they shouldn't do in preparation for that. And actually, ahead of that legislation being passed, the BBC, the NHS and the House of Commons, have already signed up to its ideals, and so that they will never use NDAs in those cases. So again, there's no reason why the agencies can't sign up to that. So we're pushing in that direction at the moment. I'm also talking to some female political leaders to talk about how they might be able to push the legislation a bit faster, but also other things that we can put in place. And then some people are starting to rally, which is amazing around this idea of unionising, or having an ombudsman of some kind in the advertising industry that allows for a third party to be able to be created. So where women and/or men can go, if they need to escalate claims, which are not necessarily going to work. They escalate them within their own agencies, because a lot of HR departments have their to shut that stuff down. And they don't necessarily trust the system. And that's why, the research that came out was that 83% of women don't report this stuff, because they're scared of the consequences. But if they had an external escalation point, they may well actually do that. And then we can really start to track and see this problem and fix it faster. So there's a couple of different things that I'm trying to push. But again, as I said, I'm not a legal expert, I'm not an HR expert. So I need to pull in real experts to help me with this, but also, I can't do this as a one woman band, and I need support. And we've also got incredible professionals, as I said, who work in this space, they just needed the additional energy and outrage that the pieces created to then get the ball rolling again. Jenny  46:37And so fantastic, well done just for carrying on and doing actually, trying to make bigger changes. In the meantime, if there is someone listening to this, and they are struggling, I'm going to put a link to all of the things that we've talked about. But this piece as well, if anyone reads your piece and feels like they need somewhere to go, what bodies would you say? Or who who should they talk to in the meantime while we're waiting for these big changes to happen? Zoe  47:05I think if you are in a media or creative industries, the best thing to do is to call NABS. It is a helpline that is set up specifically for this industry that has people that you can talk to who are very experienced in their space, so there are therapists, there are HR professionals, there are lawyers. And if you go to them and explain what it is that's happened to you, they're very understanding. It's kind of like a Samaritans type of hotline, and they will point you in the right direction in terms of getting some help, which I think is the right thing for you to do in the short term. Jenny  47:35Brilliant, brilliant, great advice. Thank you so much Zoe. I really appreciate you coming on. I know that you've had 1,000,001 invitations to join different podcasts. So I'm really grateful that you chose mine. But also, I noticed that you've got an event coming up on the 15th of September. I don't know if you wanted to mention that. Zoe  47:54Yes. So I'm going to do a two hour deep dive into the new founding formula document that I produced a couple of weeks ago. A lot of it is locked in unless you actually buy it. But I'm going to do an unlocked presentation and a Q&A at the end. There's only 100 tickets. So it's kind of first come first serve. I think I put it out late last night and there's 30 tickets gone already. So yes, if anyone's interested, then go to my twitter and you'll be able to see the link. Jenny  48:18Great. Okay, fantastic. And just finally, Zoe, who would you like to be contacted by? And do you have any final kind of pieces of advice for anyone working in an agency and walking up their career journey now, in terms of how to get involved with what you've been talking about? Zoe  48:39I think the best thing to do is to keep your mind as open as possible. I think sometimes we get trapped in terms of what we should and shouldn't be looking at and interested in based on our career or based on the position that we're in right now. But I would encourage you to be curious, I'd encourage you to fall down rabbit holes. I'd encourage you to Google and read and all this kind of stuff if there's anything that's interesting to you, even if you don't work in that space. One of the big things that I found is, when I first started writing about fandoms, and cryptocurrency, I wasn't really working on those projects. But the more I started looking into them, the more I started connecting with the right people, the more I started writing about that space, and suddenly those projects found me. So I think that if you are interested in something, you can kind of read or write or connect your way into that space, you've just got to go for it. Jenny  49:24Brilliant. So once again, thank you so much. I'm going to put the links. If anyone's not following Zoe I would highly recommend you do so because she really keeps you up to date. And she's shared so many stories and examples of what's changing. And I think what's most important for agencies, like you said is to keep an open mind and to keep learning. So thank you so much Zoe. Zoe  49:47No problem. Thank you.

Transcript: In this episode, I'm going to share with you three key steps to leading a client meeting. One of the many roles of an account manager is to lead meetings where you may have several clients involved, and also several members of the agency team. So this might be a presentation of your new ideas, or it could be campaign results, or even you might be conducting a post project review: anything where there's meetings of several individuals from both the clients side and the agency side. And actually, as main point of client contact, you're the one that needs to be seen to be facilitating and leading a meeting such as this. So I want to share with you three key steps you can take to make sure that you're covering all bases when you turn up at meetings. And the reason I'm doing this ismany participants on my Account Accelerator programme tell me that sometimes they struggle, leading client meetings where there are several agency colleagues involved. And one of the reasons is, perhaps the agency colleagues that are attending the meeting are more senior, or maybe they're more extroverted, or maybe they just have more to say. But what happens is sometimes the account manager feels, hang on a minute, I should be sort of being seen to lead this, this call or this meeting and actually, what I'm beginning to feel like is, I'm not being the main person here, and I just don't look like I'm in control. So it could be that there's another character in the room that's a stronger character, or they just simply know more about this particular topic, and are kind of an extroverted character where they like to talk a lot, but for whatever reason, really, if you follow these three key steps, I think you're going to set yourself up for success.So the first step is to reconfirm. And they will begin with Rs because I love a model. So to Reconfirm the meeting with the client, so perhaps you've set a date with the client for two weeks time, where you're going to be presenting your ideas back. Now, the smart thing to do is before you turn up at the meeting, is to call in advance to make sure, maybe it's a several days in advance to reconfirm the time, reconfirm how you're going to connect, and also to go through the agenda. Now, this is also an opportunity to ask the client, what their expectations are for that meeting. For example, you could ask something like for this meeting to be successful, what for you needs to have happen by the end, and then you go really quiet, and you wait for the client to tell you. So you might be surprised, you might be surprised that they will say something like, Well, actually, my business unit director is going to be there. And actually, it's really important to me that you shine in front of him, because he doesn't know you, he's never met you and he might have another agency that he'd like to work with. Now, this is great background knowledge for you. So obviously, another important point of this is reconfirming who's going to be at that meeting. And like I just intimated perhaps there are going to be other people from the client side that you've never met before. So it would be really in your interest to understand who they are, how experienced they are, how up to date they are with the project, or what you're going to be presenting, and more importantly, what their expectations of that meeting are. So you know, you can ask your client contact, tell me who's going to be there? And can you spend a few minutes telling me a bit about the background to these people? And perhaps can you introduce me in advance, so perhaps I can introduce myself and just double check what their expectations are of the meeting. So this means that you are going to understand who's going to be there, and what they want. Now, a little tip, if you are given the names of those client individuals that you have met, then you can go over to LinkedIn and see if you can find their profile, look at their background experience. And also, you could download an app called Crystal Knows and Crystal Knows tells you the type of kind of communication style this individual has. It's really fascinating. I was a bit sceptical at the beginning, but I have to say having tested the app with several profiles of people that I know, I can honestly say that it's quite accurate. So this is obviously useful information for you because that will give you context for what kind of character they are, and perhaps what they're looking for. So for example, if you know from looking at their profile and looking at the app, maybe, that they tend to be very analytical, not particularly outgoing, they like the detail, they love spreadsheets, then you can then have that in mind, when you're presenting. You can maybe take a little information pack that they can then take away and have a look at in their own time. Similarly, if you find out that the characters that are going to be there are extroverted or expressive, or drivers, you know, get to the point, I want the outcomes, don't give me waffle, you know, just be sure to make to keep in mind that you need to adapt your style in the meeting to who's in the room. So that's the first thing, call in advance to reconfirm the meeting with the client. And also, sometimes when you do this, the client might say something like, Oh, I'm glad you called, because things have changed a little bit our side, or something actually else has come up that I need to brief you on. So perhaps we can put aside 20 minutes at the end of the call so I can brief you. You never know. So why is this important? Well, you don't want any surprises at the meeting. You want to look professional and buttoned up. You also want to know if the meeting could be any shorter. You know, if you've put aside 90 minutes for a huge presentation, but actually, the client tells you 90 minutes is a long time. How come? Let's talk about that. Could we do it in 15 minutes or something like that. Also, you want to do a bit of research on the company. You know, what's happening at the company level is anything that you should be aware of. Have a look at their client website for the latest company news, perhaps downloads the transcripts from the the investor relations meetings, if it's a big enterprise client, perhaps look on LinkedIn for the CEO and see if there's any latest news he shared. So yeah, reconvene the meeting, do a bit of background reading.And then the next step is to Rehearse. So the other R is rehearse. And that's where you want to pull the agency team members together, to talk them through your pre meeting plan. And that is essentially briefing them on who's going to be there, what their expectations are, go through the agenda, and agree roles and responsibilities. And this will prevent anyone talking over you, for example, if you agree that you're going to be the one leading the meeting, facilitating the meeting, opening up the meeting. It's also an open opportunity to think about and anticipate any questions that you think might come up in the meeting, so that you can agree as a team, how you're going to respond to those questions. You may have some questions yourself that you'd like to ask. Also agreeing,  how you're going to interact with the team? Who's going to go first, who's going to go second? What's going to happen at the end? Maybe you have a Q&A session, and who's going to lead that and maybe direct the questions. So, getting the team together is a real lovely way for the rest of the agency team members who perhaps don't have that regular contact with your client, to feel included, to feel updated, to feel prepared, and part of your team. So rehearse get together and make sure that, you know, by the time you get in front of the client, you are a well oiled machine, and you've anticipated different things that can happen.The third step of leading a meeting is to be Ready to lead. So this is the third R,  ready to lead. And essentially, it's where your job is to at the beginning of the meeting for everyone there, restate the meeting agenda, talk about timings of the meeting, and what's going to happen at the end. So for example, you might might say that, at the end, my job is going to be to take note of the key action points. And what I'll do at the end of this meeting, is go through those key actions to get them agreed. And then I will within 24 hours of the meeting ending I will circulate a contact report with those key actions document documented. So that's always a good thing to do. Also, if there are any breaks in the meeting, just make sure that you've told everyone, look, we're going to be pausing for 10 minutes for a refreshment break, so that everyone knows in advance that they can maybe take a call that they need to or send an email. And then facilitate the discussion.Make sure that you're the one leading the meeting pulling people in and looking for those signals from from the client side, particularly, if they are, you know, maybe losing their concentration, getting distracted looking bored, look for members of your team, maybe that may be waffling a little bit too long, or going off agenda points, make sure you bring everyone back to the key objective of why you're there. And then at the end of the call, you can then wrap up, summarise the key points that have been covered in the meeting, and talk about next steps. So let's just recap. So the three R's so Reconfirm the meeting in advance, Rehearse the meeting internally, and then be Ready to lead the meeting with the client. So I hope you found that useful. I hope there was a couple of reminders there for what you can do. But it's always good to have a process that you follow for every meeting, so that everyone knows the protocol, particularly for big meetings where you only get one chance.There's another episode of the podcast where I talk about how to overcome status quo bias. And this is where you may be presenting new ideas and perhaps the client is potentially resistant to those ideas, and how you can overcome them. So you can certainly have a have a look back at that episode, I'll include the link in the show notes. And this will give you a reminder of the checklist that you can go through to make sure you cover all of those points to overcome the client status quo bias.I hope you enjoyed that episode. And if you have any questions about leading meetings, then please look me up on LinkedIn, Jenny Plant, send me an email jenny@accountmanagementskills.com.And just to let you know, I'm running my next Account Accelerator programme on the 23rd of September. This is going to be a nine week programme with five 90 minute coaching sessions every two weeks. And it's where I talk you through a systematic approach and a client centric approach to client growth. So it's to take you from unpredictable project revenue to more predictable account growth. And it is for you if you've been in an account management role for at least two years managing managing client relationships and you are responsible for account growth. Then come over to my website on the training hub, and you can find out more. It's accountmanagementskills.com/training.