Creative Agency Account Manager Podcast

Jenny  So, Sam, a very big warm welcome to you, to the podcast. So we were introduced by a mutual friend, Tina Fegent. And I'm very grateful to her, because it's always good for me to get recommendations for who I should get on the podcast. And so I'm going to hand over to you in a moment, Sam to give you to give your background. But I just thought it was really interesting because Sam has worked predominantly on the client side, in very senior level marketing positions. And she's essentially now an interim marketing director. And I was just looking through all of your history, Sam, and you'ved worked with some fantastic brands, you know, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's Mercedes Benz, Whitbread, Avios, MS Society, Anglian Water. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the brands you've worked with. So I think this is going to be really valuable discussion for us, because I think it's really, you've come across so many agencies in your time. So getting your perspective and sharing your experiences are going to be really valuable. So welcome. And would you mind spending a couple of minutes just talking about you your background? And who you help? And maybe some, give some flavour for your experience working with agencies? Sam  Yeah, absolutely. Hi, Jenny. So my name is Sam Bridger. I'm an interim marketing director and consultant. I think the thing to say with me is that I started agency side. So I started my career at J Walter Thompson, JWT, and Gray. And so I'm really empathetic to the agency point of view. And I've also done a stint at the AAR. So I've also done that intermediary piece, I think you've said, I've kind of been on all three sides of the pitch table, if you like. So I think that really helps me as a client to work with agencies and understand the demands that face them. You know, I've been a client for 25 years been an interrim for 14 years. So I've kind of worked with more agencies than I can remember and probably run more pitches and I've had hot dinners. And so yeah, lots of different experience. And, currently, now I'm looking for the next challenge as either a strategic consultant with an agency or with a client. So yes, it's, as we come out of furlough, it's all starting to look quite exciting again, now. Jenny  It's getting very busy, isn't it at the moment? So I love that that's quite a special background as well, given that you've worked for two, you know, both sides of the fence, as it were. And I mean, from your perspective, because a lot of debate lately, Sam has been around the value of account management, could you give me your perspective on what value you see the role of account manager bringing to maybe both the agency and the client side? Sam  You know, there's lots of examples of this. And it's, I think, the first thing to say is recognising that the role of account manager it's a difficult balancing act, because you're there to manage the clients expectations, but also to sell the agency product. And you know, sometimes they're very clearly caught between two stools.And it is a challenge, particularly if there is a big disagreement over a creative route, that the account manager has to walk that line. But it much like the marketing director is the voice of the client ,sorry, the voice of the customer I should say within their business, the account manager has to be the voice of client in the agency, they have to be representing the needs and the wants and the issues that the client is facing, and therefore really need to understand them. And maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more later on. So, you know, I think what clients really appreciate is to understand any kind of internal dialogue that may have gone on about a creative brief, for example, if it's being presented, we don't necessarily want the account managers to just come to us and go, you know, here it is. Everybody loves it. If that's not the case, you know, be honest with us, because it's such a subjective process creativity, that there's never a right solution. And understanding the dialogue and discussions that have gone on behind the scenes does sometimes help us go you know, what, actually,  that's a good point. Maybe we hadn't thought of it that way, rather than well, they're selling you this, you've gotta buy this , you know, and I think  that very old school way of working, I'm hoping it's kind of going away, but I still see it, you know, it's still it does still rear its head occasionally. And it's just it's a shame because absolutely, you know, everything that I do, and the way that I manage my own teams, the way that I manage my agency is honesty is the most important thing that you can have. And you're going to get the best work if you have that kind of discussion. And that understanding and ultimately, as an account manager, if you don't believe in the work, don't try and get someone else to buy it. Jenny  I love that. I think that's really insightful. So how do you propose that an account manager does that? Well, so you said that it was really useful to hear the internal dialogue behind the scenes of maybe giving those creative concepts and presentations more context for you, rather than saying that this is the right route and being very sort of salesy, and you know, tell me a bit more more about that. Sam  I think just rewind a step, I think, how clients manage agencies is absolutely critical to all of this. And I think I am always staggered, whenever I move into a new organisation, quite how bad so many clients are at it, the amount of times I'll go to an organisation, and the agencies are being kept separate they're at arm's length, they're only being called in when there's a brief to answer. And for me, to get the best out of an agency, they have to be part of a team that, you know, it's a team effort, marketing. it always has been, and you know, it's not down to the client, it's not down to the agency. So they are a big part of our external marketing team. And so they all need to be around that table. So one of the first things I always do is to, is to bring people together. And you know, I'm quite often have them looking at one brief and coming up with the answer together, because I think that's really important, that kind of shared knowledge and that shared expertise. And I have yet to work with an agency that hasn't appreciated that, that hasn't thought, it's really good to see what the other guys are doing. And to get that, those new sparks of insight and those new little nuggets from bits of the business that they maybe don't work on. And it was really important as well, when to keep them in the loop, particularly, the kind of work that I do is often transformational. It's about helping the business  change directions, put new strategies in place, etc. And when the business is going through all of that particular change, you need the agencies on site, you know, you need to keep them up to date with everything that's going on. And the last big business I've worked with, which is Anglian Water, there was a dozen agencies that, you know, they hadn't seen for ages that they just worked on this little project, well it was a big project, but it was kind of over to one side. So when we kind of brought around the table and said, this is the strategic ambition of this business, they were like, really, okay, brilliant, you know, that's really exciting, and really motivating. And here's a load of ideas that I've got. And it just sparks all of that creative energy, which I absolutely love. And, you know, in this business, there's no harm in networking with your peers, let's be honest. So it's always a, you know, it's a win win for the agency as well. So I've also taken it to extreme, particularly back in, in my Smart days, where I literally said one brief one budget, and said to them, you pitch for how much you need to spend on this, because I can't sit here arbitrarily and say, Well, I'm going to give this much production and there's much, they are just kind of pulling numbers out the air. So asking the agency to collaborate not only on the strategic direction that we need to take, but also on how we're actually going to spend that money, and then which media channels and which is the best way to do it. And it's always produced really, really great results. So I think, you know, I've never understood clients who think that, you know, agencies are suppliers, not partners, and that we don't need to kind of keep them in the loop on things. Jenny  Why do you think that persists? Sam  Laziness, possibly, and probably just a general, a genuine ignorance. And I don't mean that in a, you know, an offensive way, I just mean, that lack of understanding about what they can actually bring, I think there's a, you know, that one of the biggest issues client side as well, that I see is, is marketing directors who are appointed without classic marketing training. So it's either coming from sales roles from other general management roles, from ops from, you know, from all sorts of places who don't know about marketing. And if they're not instilling best practice on their teams, the teams are not going to learn, it's not going to, you know, it's not going to cascade its way through to the junior members of staff. And I think that's, that's a part of the problem. And also, quite simply, as well, because it is an expense, you know, you're not getting those people, if you're a good client, you're not expecting those people to come around the table for free. So you've got to think about how you're remunerating the agencies and and think about how you want to pay them for their thinking time, as well as their actual productive creative time. So it is difficult and on a tight budget, you know, there is a way to manage it. But there are ways that you can manage it without, you know, hugely increasing your agency bill. Jenny  What do you think agencies could do differently to kind of open that door up for themselves? Because you sound like the ideal client? I'm sure there's lots of agencies kind of cheering thinking I want to work with Sam. But what could what's they're, what's the agency's role in this? How could they do anything differently, to try to open that door to the strategic table?    Sam  I think it's a good question, Jerry, I think what can help is just taking that initiative sometimes. So if you know that you're working with clients that does operate in that area, kind of divide and conquer kind of way, then try and find ways to bring the agencies together yourself. So perhaps, you know, run an afternoon workshop where you invite all the agencies together to talk about an issue either in the sector or with a particular client or with a particular brand or whatever it might be. Do it in the afternoon, have a couple of hours of workshopping, and then a couple of hours of you know, going out for a drink and getting to know each other. And it just set that ball rolling and just demonstrate a way to add the value because that's a good way of the client seeing that, this is probably a good idea, maybe I should do this more often. The model that I always run, which always seems to work really well is that there are weekly status meetings between the day to day team, so the account managers and the brand managers or whatever their equivalent is client side, there are monthly planning meetings with marketing directors possibly or the level below, heads of, and planners and account directors, and then quartlery all agencies and at the quarterly all agency, it's a really good opportunity to get people together to see what's happened in the last quarter to think about what's coming up in the next quarter. Review the results because I'm very much result oriented marketing director, I'm not just for that looked nice, fire and forget, let's go on to the next thing, so look at themselves, and sometimes also to bring in guest speakers if you like, guest presenters. So quite often I bring in people from other parts of the business that they've heard of, or they know the area that they look after, but they've never met them to explain the projects that they're working on and bring those to life. And it's just again, it's just a great way of getting people around the table talking. And I do it internally as well as client. So always put into in place internal comms planning processes, which involve the individual business managers in the comms planning process and make sure, I've worked with lots of businesses, where they've come to the marketing department and said, you know, do me a leaflet, or you know, give me a Facebook ad, or whatever it might be, you know, we're not the colouring in department. So tell me what your objectives are. And we'll tell you how we'll solve it for you with our agency team. So it's really important to kind of get those guys involved. And I think I remember one of my absolute best moments, Anglian Water, when there was a person from the parks and recreation team, talking to a person from essentially the wastewater sewerage team about a problem, these two people had never even met before, never been in a room before. And yet, because they were talking about shared piece of land, all of a sudden, they were like, Oh, my god, yes, you could do this. And we could do this. And then that would happen. And it was like, bing, you know, it's that kind of lightbulb moment that I really love those making those connections.   Jenny  I think this is so spot on. And you're absolutely right, because the earlier you bring everybody into the process in the beginning, you get everybody's views, and everyone feels like they're part of it, you get all the buy in, and then you take them on the journey. And when those decisions are made, they very much feel like they've been part of it from the beginning. So I'm absolutely in alignment. And I love that that the fact that you've also said not only for agencies, but also internally, as well as how you, you operate. And I see that there might be some agencies thinking, this sounds quite ideal, but where you have an agency that perhaps has multiple, different offerings. You know, if you're coming together with an agency that also has multiple types of offerings, it's almost becomes a little bit competitive in terms of ooh we know what the client's strategy is, now, we're going to propose something, and we're going to propose something, and it where you don't have specialists that are very siloed, in different areas, any kind of thoughts on that, how you can sort of eliminate the competitiveness. Sam  Sure, and competition is a good thing. So my first thing was like, don't be afraid of that. Because if you're a good agency, you'll win your share, you know, your protect your share. And if you're not, you'll learn from the others that did. So I think, you know, the days of individual specialties, as I say, are long gone. But what I've also found with clients is that if you look at you know, whenever you're running a pitch, and you start looking at the agency, they're out there, all the agencies claim they can do everything they always do, you know, we do everything from leaflets to full blown TV campaigns, you know, and very rarely are agencies, brilliant at all of them. And I'm kind of talking about the mid size to small sized ones, not the big groups that have got a solution for everything. So very rarely are those sorts of agencies good at everything, and they've all got things that they're better at, they've all got their areas of specialism even if they can deliver those other things. And with a client like Anglian Water, for example, which is my most recent one, they were using these sort of small to midsize agencies for specific projects, even though there were projects that other agencies are doing that, you know, agency A could easily have picked up as well. So that also helps us it's kind of bringing these people into the room say, Well, we've now got this project. And you know, we're going to ask you guys to pitch for it. Because even though we've appointed you to be our CRM agency, we know that you're capable of delivering this or we wanted you to be our digital agency, but you're equally capable. So it also helps us to have lots of different skills around the room and lots of different opportunities for new creative solutions. And it stops agencies getting kind of tired, you know, with that, well we always deliver the CRM, so we'll just keep delivering the CRM gives them an opportunity as well to re engage in the business in a different way. Jenny  You're absolutely right. It provides that kind of competitive environment a little bit, doesn't it? Which is beneficial to the client because they're going to get the both of both both worlds, best of both worlds. I think also it does keep agencies on their toes and keeps them more engaged because what's the price you pay for sort of doing those mini internal pitches is the fact that you always get to see the client's strategy and you feel bought in. So it almost compounds and cements that relationship, I think which is really, really beneficial. Sam  From a client's point of view as well, you don't want to be doing another pitch to bring another agency on board. And this is the other thing I see is going back to my days at Mercedes, one of the challenges that we had there was that we needed to save, I think something like 130 million euros over the period of a year across across the major European markets in one year. And a large proportion of that fell to the marketing teams to try and make savings and there was so much wastage, it was crazy. And in Mercedes  UK, which covered Mercedes, Chrysler, Maybach, and Smart, which I headed up, we had no agency roster in place at all. So I thought, well, the first thing we need to do is just see who we're working with. And I identified 130 agencies working with MB UK, which is probably not that surprising, you know, from the from the big pan brand media and creative agencies right through to specialist agencies that could put on commercial truck shows, and others that would do golf days for VIPs. So the first thing to kind of put those guys in order and say well you're Tier one, because you do everything,  your Tier three, and then understand within that which ones we needed to have contracts and retainers with and which ones we were just using on a project basis. And once that was in place, it was just so much easier for everybody around the business to go, I need an agency that can do XYZ, so who have we got ok, brilliant, I'll go talk to them. What had been happening in the past was that every time a project came up, they were going out looking for somebody new, because they didn't know that that part of business was working with somebody who was really good. And that helped the agencies not only to generate more business, but obviously to understand the breadth of our business better and get involved in lots of different things and start making the connections on our behalf. And I think that is one thing as well, which is always a great side benefit of this, that you as a client, and particularly in some businesses can be quite siloed, you can be in your division or your team or whatever, focusing on your objectives and your projects. What we need to do, we really need to do X, Y, and Zed and we want to go to I don't know, let's pick those of the Game Fair in Hertfordshire, you know, this year to have a stand there and they go, Oh, you know what, we're already there. But it's my Maybach. So you probably want to kind of coordinate with those guys. And sometimes they help you know what's going on in your own business and stuff that you wouldn't normally kind of come across. So like I say I very rarely see it as a lose situation. But it is it takes a lot of work set it up. Jenny  I presume as always as well, you probably get resistance to it. Because I think the benefit that you have Sam is going into so many different types of organised organisations, that feels to me. So you know, so what a great starting point, collaboration, communication and getting everyone to speak to each other. But what kinds of resistance have you had to that?   Sam  A lot. Yeah, I know, it's the thing that I always joke with that I go into an organisation and they say we've got this strategic challenge. help us solve it. Okay. Okay, great. And then I spend my first couple of months, at least the first 10 weeks, going around asking people what the issues are really getting under the skin of the business. And having that  my golden question, which is how can I help you do this better? And they brilliant, here's all the stuff that really annoys me. Here's the stuff that needs fixing, because they can offload on someone who is impartial and isn't there with a you know, a political agenda just there to sort something out, and I go great, and I put it all together. And kind of present that kind of along later and say Okay, so this is the strategy, this is what we need to do it's all the stuff you've told me. So this is what we now need to start changing. And I always get always, always always this 'ah'. When I said I wanted everything to change. I didn't mean me.  So I have to work around that. And it always had to go through this like Yeah, yes, that norming, storming, performing thing of setting up new teams, you always, always get it about three months in. Yeah, sorry, that means I've got to change as well? Not sure I signed up for that. So you then persuade them, you can work with them, you then show them what we're trying to collectively achieve and how ultimate say how I'm helping to make their job easier. And make it make it much more enjoyable for the teams and make it much more easy to understand how to measure their results and you know, achieve their objectives and all that good stuff. So you will always go through that change. The only way you can do it is to tackle it head on and say I know it hurts, but this is why we're doing it. There are always some way you're going to have to push them a little bit harder and they're always some that will just jump willingly and that's just the nature of the beast.   Jenny  So not only have you got to be a good marketeer and strategist you also need to be a fantastic influencer to get anything done. Sam  Especially as an interim, because you've got such a short space of time to do it. So there is no I'll just, if you take on permanent job, and I remember this compensation quite readily when I handed over to the permanent hire when I was brought in to set up a strategy and a team while they were looking for the permanent director, and we had our hand over meeting, and I said, Okay, the things that you just need to be aware of is A, B, and C. And he said, Well, I'll just kind of spend the first three months getting the lay of the land, getting my feet under the table before I kind of dig into those. And I thought, great, you know, you've got the luxury of doing that for me it's a complete waste of time because I just told you what's going on. But hey, but you know, you as an interim, you don't have the luxury of time to build those relationships. So you have to do them on the hoof. And you have to do the work and build  relationships and and try and bring people on that journey with you. Jenny  Do you think your skills in your agency life helped you or help you now?   Sam  Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad I started agency side, you know. I know, the skills I have now, you know, prehistoric and, you know, the days of buyer books and spot matching by hand when I was a TV buyer with 13 different channels, and you know, but starting at JW T was just fantastic. And such an honour for me to have started there. And they had the mantra at the time, which if you can buy TV, you can buy anything, which is true, because it was the hardest negotiation, it was like, it was like being a city trader buying TV back in those days, you know, people standing up on the phone shouting in the media department. And I'm sure it's a whole lot more pleasant now. But yeah, and it was bloody hard work. But during that, working through pitches, you know, understanding lots of different clients simultaneously working from Esso to Kellogg's to Unilever to all different pitch clients, Swaddlers, which is a nappy brand, which was my first client that was my own client. Yeah, to go through all of that. Absolutely. And I think I there's something, we were talking earlier on about good account management. And for me that being in touch and  being a really good communicator is really, really important. And the account director I worked with when I was at Anglian Water, one of the agencies there was absolutely brilliant, you know, she was always on it, she was a great communicator, she, you know, you just knew that she was on every everything, but she worked ridiculous hours. And I think that, for me, that's one of the things that needs to really change in agency life, that agencies still have rubbish work life balance, you know, you still see them pulling the 2am pitch, you know, and it's like, as a client, I've never done that, unless you've got a kind of job, which involves some kind of emergency response. So I think there is there is work to do on that side   from the agency side definitely. I have every sympathy for it, that needs to change.  Jenny  The pace is unreal, sometimes. I want to focus in on that, what you've just said about communication skills, because I think you're absolutely spot on. The best account managers I've ever met, are the best communicators, they are, they just have this ability to make sure that everyone in the room feels that they're informed that, you know, everyone feels part of it spoken to heard, felt. And that skill of communication, I think is so key. And what I wanted to ask you was you you've written on your blog, a few pieces, which are really useful for account managers and agencies, because you've, you've kind of shown the both sides of the coin, in the context of pitching, for example, or also going to a, an agency's office as a client who's bringing the business and how you like to be treated. And you gave a few examples, which I thought was really spot on, you know, like, Don't leave me in the reception area with you know, and don't have the person that's on the reception, eating a bowl of spaghetti when I arrive , because it just gives me that impression. And I would love you to, and I don't want to put you on the spot. But because we are in a virtual world, I'm really keen to hear from you. How can account managers  improve their communication skills when everything is on the screen? Sam  Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? I think we were talking to somebody the other day, and they were all kind of getting Zoom fatigue as well. And it almost seems to be the default now. And I was talking, I was setting up a meeting the other day with somebody and her PA was  well, you know, would you like to Zoom? Would you like to FaceTime? Would you like to Skype? And I was like I'd just like to speak on the phone, actually, you know, that wrong? We've forgotten, there is this thing that you can pick up? So, you know, I think it is just about checking in and just trying to you know, we don't have to have everything as a formal meeting. And you know, don't forget that you can text, you can just give a quick buzz, you can just drop a quick email, how's everything going. Is there anything I need to do? Whatever the project is, you know, just checking in because for a client, the account manager is there to kind of take your problems away to just this is what we're trying to do. This is our challenge this is my budget, you know, help just make it happen. And whether it's, whether it's on a Zoom call, whether it's on a shoot it's about dealing with the problems that come along and not making a meal of them and just being calm, being flexible, being professional, just being able to deal with staff and take the pain away. And again, it does come down to remuneration, ultimately, you know, we are aware of that if you are, you know, up to the limit on your hours for that week, that month, then you're not going to proactively begin phoning the client, particularly if you're very busy on other client projects, and like you were saying before, running a million miles an hour, but keeping in touch, just making sure that you're not falling off the radar, I think clients also want to feel like, you know, it is a two way dialogue and they don't want to feel like you're only getting in touch when we're paying you for something, you know, just How's it going? Oh, you know, any, anything we can help with any projects, doesn't always have to be a sales pitch, it can just be, you know, we're here, do you need us. Jenny  What do you think's the most useful way to do that? You know, one way you suggested, you know, is there anything you can help, we can help you with, you know, should we have an update on what's happening, you know, so that we can see how we can help. But if, if that's for a client is a bit, you know, I've got too much to do, I can't, I just quite frankly, don't have the time, what would be a useful way for the account manager to keep that dialogue and keep that contact? Sam  It's really helpful, one of the the things I find really helpful is what the competition up to, you know, there are, we can see, if we take the very basic example. And we can see what ads they put on TV, for example, what we can't see is how well they've done. So anything that you can do behind the scenes to get data to get results to do any kind of analytics on their social media listening, or  you know, did you know, I don't know if you've heard about this, but Brand X has got a real big issue because of.... and you might want to kind of take advantage of it, or Brand X are actually doing really, really well. And you think we should kind of try and up our ante somehow. So just you know, just that kind of broader as well as being another pair of specialist ears out there for us really, and just really helping us because my team is busy running their own projects and managing 1000 things, I'm busy managing them and managing families and managing upwards outputs and keeping the board happy. So to have someone out there to kind of really help us. And I think this is as a as a modern client, if you like one of my biggest moans compared to how things used to be back in the old days. It' so bloody difficult to get decent, consolidated campaign results now, because I get presented with a bunch of statistics from you know, various social media channels, which don't add up to a hill of beans normally in you know, in the real world. And I don't ever have that sense, I very rarely have that sense of was this worth doing? You know, was this worth doing? Or should I just taken that half million quid and put it on bus side, or a TV ad or whatever it might be. So help me really understand that, help  my team understand that because ultimately, again, I've got to stand up in front of the board and justify it. And if I can't understand it, and I can't justify it, I'm not going to be able to give it to them, and therefore they're going to take the budget away next year. So really help us to make the case for why we're doing what we're doing. Jenny  It's so useful. It's such a good tip, you know, bring the client something that they didn't know, competitor information being one being really clear about your campaign results. And that's the real data that you need. An that, you know, how much do you think agencies actually understand the role of the client? Because we talked about the other way around, but you've just said, I'm the one putting my reputation on the line by standing up in front of the C suite, the board and explaining what we're doing and why. And actually, how much understandingdo you think agencies have of the pressures that you're under? Sam  It depends, I think, it's it's very easy when your agency side to think that  the advertising, let's call it that, for simplicity sake, is the only thing that they're dealing with. And you know, and it really isn't it for me, it's the nicest bit of job that I love the most, you know, I love working with agencies, I love the creative process. But I've also got salaries  to review jobs, you know, job evaluations, to put forward,people to recruit boards,  to deal with other strategic things to write, you know, I've got a million other things going on in the business that I have to deal with and stuff gets chucked at you all the time. So it's just, you know, it does help to have some sort of understanding of the context of a marketing directors day and what they are also having to deal with. And that comes back to the earlier point of help them do their job, help them take some of that stuff, if they can. Jenny  Do you think it's useful because this is brilliant tips, by the way, Sam. So thank you. What do you think there's anything else that the agency can do maybe at the beginning of the relationship or the beginning of the project, to create that dialogue to say, look, you know, just it's okay if you spend a couple of minutes just telling us telling us about your role your day, so that we can see the best way of communicating with you on an ongoing basis, or if we have a situation where we need to meet you urgently. You know, what do you prefer? How do we contact you? Do you think there's enough done at the beginning to set the relationship up for success? Sam  Probably not. And you could you could even trace that back to the pitch, actually. So I've got you know some of my pitch horror stories. Which I have many and some quite funny? I think, for me, one of the one of the worst things is when agencies don't let the client talk, and you would, you would say, what does that even a thing? And oh, my god, yes, it's a thing. So I've been to two examples spring to mind where one great agents we walked in, and we loved what they've done with a room, they clearly have got our brand. team seemed great, they were, you know, kind of talking, seem to understand what we were there to do. They spent 50 minutes of an hour presentation talking about another brand, and not even a brand in my sector, to the point where I'm actually sitting next to Paul Phillips from the AAR and I just wrote on the page next to him - make them stop. It was just like, guys, are we ever gonna get to the point here, and they were so desperate to show off this really good, you know, award winning work that they've done for this retail client, but they completely forgotten to talk about us. And suddenly, I'm on another one. I think this is when I was at Mercedes, pitching for CRM agency. And we were sitting around the table and having a good chat. And someone said to me, so Sam, you know about the cars - asked me a question. And I literally opened my mouth to answer. And the MD of the agency jumped up and answered it for me.  Jenny  Yikes. Yeah, you know, the disappointing thing about that is, I always think that the best account people have a really high level of emotional intelligence, social awareness, and they can kind of read a room really well, so that they're able to kind of say, Oh, my God, you know, I would have thought that someone from the agency team would have picked up on the fact that they'd been talking at you for 50 minutes, and that you were showing some level of discomfort, you'd even leaned over to the guy next to you to write something down. I would have liked to have thought that someone would have picked that up. Sam  It's really, as I said, in my blog, and if I look bored, I am. So yeah, absolutely. I think emotional intelligence, it's a really, really good point, Jenny and I also think it is about being genuine and being honest, because I've also worked with account managers who I'd say are quite fake, who kind of almost pretend to be your best friend. And you know, and then when you don't work them anymore, it's like you're dead to me now. I don;t want you to be my best friend, you know, I want a professional friendly relationship if we stay in touch when we stop working together great. And I have done with loads of people. But I don't want that kind of vague, invite me to a party and then leave me standing in the corner because the clients here you know, kind of nonsense, you know, it's like I am not a client. I am Sam, I'm a normal person and I'm quite nice outside of work. So you know, don't need to..well I'm quite nice in work as well. So, um, you know, I think there is that that thing about being genuine. And I'm just always reminded of, you know, going to the extreme lengths of making a client in this case, not the client making the talent happy. And I don't know if you've ever heard that great story about Sarah Gold or Sarah Golding as she now is who's the chief executive of they're called The Partners now aren't they? Yeah, and chair of the IPA and she was our account director when I was at Orange and she was at the Lowe. And yeah, for her famous story was that she was trying to keep Naomi Campbell happy on an Olympus shoot. So she took up smoking just so that she could hang out with her and like you know, for us mere mortals who aren't you know, as great as Sarah , it is about that genuine you know, be a be on side and be a support, be a great help and be friendly and let's have a let's have fun while we're doing this job. But don't be fake about it. Don't be shallow and obviously the more you find out about me and the pressures on my team and my job, the more you can do to help/ Jenny  Do you think and I don't know what view you've got on this. Do you think the best account managers just have that natural kind of interest and charm about them? Or do you think that's something that with coaching and mentoring and help you can actually help someone with? Sam  I think you need a bit of it to start with ,yeah, I think it can be it can be trained, it can be learned like most skills, but if you're not a genuinely empathetic people person, it will be hard for you to do it genuinely as we just talked about and I think that the thing is, it is a real people job because you do have you know as we were saying before, you do have lots of conflicting people and demands to deal with you know, you are kind of the centre of this storm in a lot of ways, so if you're not a people person and you don't know, you're not great at stakeholder management and engagement, then you are going to struggle Jenny  You're in the wrong job basically. Sam  It's about bringing your whole self to work as well, not your fake self. So if you've if you've got an opinion on something, say so you know, by carrier, you know, you're not there to let the creatives and the planners do all the great thinking you have an opinion too. So bring it to the table, you know, I have seen account managers who've just meekly kind of sat there. And I know damn, well, they've got an opinion afterwards, they've told me and I so well say so, bring it to the table, you know, just just, it's difficult, particularly dealing with creatives. Because, you know, quite often you're dealing with creative egos. And that's sometimes hard to get a word in edgewise. But, you know, you have to, you have to be able to trust your convictions, I think. Jenny  I agree. And I think that's a great point. Because a lot of I think a lot of account managers, they don't want to be seen as an order taker, passively taking notes, and just being the person that goes from one side to the next, they want to be seen as a trusted adviser, they want to be bringing the insights, they want to be bringing the competitor information to you, and have a place at the table. It's a really, it's a tool, it's a tactic, but we use the concept of a one page pre meeting plan. Because if you've got a big client meeting going up, coming up, and you're in that meeting with bigger personalities, maybe a creative, maybe a strategist, etc. You have the ability to orchestrate that meeting by getting everyone together before and say, right, this is how it's gonna go. I'm gonna lead I'll bring you in at that point, then I will ask for questions. Because I I personally think that the client then has the perception of that person as valuable. Because if you're sitting in a meeting passively taking notes, you don't say anything, A the clients probably going to think well, what am I paying you for? But also, what value are you bringing, like you say. Sam  Exactly, and a lot of that stems from understanding the client's product properly as well. Again, in my blog, I talk about examples again, mainly they're pitches, but it just shows how critical it's where I've had as a car client been presented with account managers that can't drive, as a client for NHS blood and transplant someone who's never given blood. And working with at Whitbread these sort of 20 something Shoreditch types who'd never even heard of Beefeater Inns let alone set foot in one because it's not a London brand is not trendy and stuff you know, mid market family brands been around for 50 years, you know. So I think it's, it's make sure you learn as much as you can about the product you live and breathe it, you know, drive it, go on it, do whatever, whatever, whatever, eat it, whatever it is, you know, experience it as much as you possibly can, and understand it, because I the one thing that that I have said in a boardroom scenario is that if I've got a seat at this table, I've got a voice at this table. Otherwise, there's no point me being here. And, you know, and I think they need to remember that they're not the note taker, you know, they're not the person to carry the bags and you know, carry the the art folder, they are the person who is there to kind of help cohesively bring, bring everything together. It's an it's an important skill.  Jenny  Absolutely. And that's great advice. Do you have any other because you said you have quite a few horror stories, I'm really keen to hear them. Because you know, someone listening might think, Oh, my God, I think we're going into one of Sam's potential horror stories. And you've just actually given a lot of food for thought already. Do you have any other ones that.. Sam  I could sum it up really with the same philosophy that Whitbread had so Whitbread obviously have Premier Inn, Costa Coffee and four more restaurant brands. And their philosophy was 'our house' when I was working there, and it was really simple, it didn't matter whether you were the chief exec, or a waitress  in a Beefeater or a chambermaid in a Premier Inn, you treated the place as if it was your house. So if someone was coming to your house, you wouldn't give them a dirty glass to drink out of, or you wouldn't you give them dirty sheets to sleep in, you know, make sure that the room was tidy that when they finished drinking, you offered them another drink, you know, so it's just it's that bringing it down to a really simple level. And so when I go to an agency, whether it's a pitch or just a meeting, it's just like, you know, it's that welcome. If that making sure the reception is tidy, you know that that someone having a bowl of spaghetti really happened in the middle of reception and you know, copies of Campaign that were four weeks out of date and stuff like that, or being left sitting there one I remember where I was delayed because of a train and I'd phoned to say I'm really sorry, train delayed, I can't do anything about it. I'm going to be about 10 minutes late, arrived at the agency was left sitting in reception for another 10 minutes. And I'm sitting there thinking, this is the time I'm meant to be in a meeting with you. What are you doing? You know? Why are you leaving me here, or I've turned up for a meeting before my colleague, and I've just been left sitting in an empty meeting room until the colleague arrives. And it's like, I don't want to be treated like royalty, but I also would like a bit of professional courtesy and, you know, maybe you could chat to me and find out a bit about me before the official meeting starts. Back in, this is going back a while but I when I left advertising my first client job was at the RSPB, which is the bird charity. And the big joke is that I know nothing about birds, I can barely recognise a chicken, but I was there to do a commercial job for them. And we had started a search for an agency to celebrate our millionth member at the time. And I ended up running that as an ex agency person. And we went to meet some media agencies and I had obviously come from seven years as a media planner buyer. I was working with two deputy marketing directors or two assistant marketing directors, joint marketing directors, I should say, one who was ex IDB and one who was ex I think Unilever again an FMCG brand, I can't remember, in the mists of time, and the media, one of the major agencies at the pitch treated as if we were like three old ladies who worked in the gift shop. I was at the time, I was like, 28, so I wasn't even an old lady, you know, just the  no bother to check out what our backgrounds were, what we knew. And he started to talk, one of the guys started talking the most random media bullshit at me, which I let him kind of tie himself up in a knot for about 10 minutes and then said, Well, actually, I think it's du du du du du du and the shock on his face. And I said, I'm sorry, I should have told you I was a media planner buyer for eight years. And it was like, you know, serves you bloody right mate, do your homework. So I think that's, you know, that the value of what you can understand and to have conversations where you're, you know, there is such thing as a stupid question nowadays, because the internet can tell you so much that don't ask me who the parent company is of my brand. Or don't ask me what other cars we make, or you know, whatever it might be, do your basic homework. Don't turn around to me say, this is so interesting. I didn't know anything about this until yesterday, you know, I haven't come here to talk to a bunch of interns. I've come to talk to you about your expertise and how you can help me improve what I am trying to do with my brand. So yeah, and there's all that there's all the little things that catering is always one which gets me which makes me laugh, you know, being presented wio platesth ginormous, crumbly croissants and no plates.  On a futon. And yeah, milky tea, I'm lactose intolerant, by the way, in a chipped mug, chipped kind of freebie mug. So yeah, they're just, you know, all of those sorts of things. It's just treated me as if I'm a guest in your home. So treat, treat me in the way that you would you would treat guests in your home. And it's that conversation, you know, we're here to talk about your business and how you can help us.   Jenny  Do you think it's got worse or better? That aspect of it? Sam  Oh, good question. I don't think it's changed enough. Actually, I don't think it's necessarily got worse, but I don't think it's got better. I think it's very easy and easy for agencies to go into pitch mode. And they, you know, deploy the same team, you always deploy approach it in the same way. And I've read lots of lots of books and lots of essays on how to break that cycle, and how to think about pitching differently, etc. and that it's worth digging those sorts of things out. But yeah, it. Unfortunately, the whole pitch process is still so mired in the same. Here's a brief, here's the long list. Here's the short list now that and what it doesn't let you do sufficiently is road test a relationship. And ultimately, that's what it's all about. And I think next time I'm looking for an agency, I'm really going to try hard to do it differently. I'm going to try and do some project based road testing, rather than the big all singing, all dancing, kind of, okay, you've got all the business based on two meetings, you know, it's like marrying somebody when you've been on two dates, isn't it? Jenny  Essentially, it is. Where do you see that? You know, what do you what would you be looking for during those kind of test projects? What kinds of behaviours and skills? Sam  I think, you know, as we've talked about it is that communication, it's about staying one step ahead. It's about being calm and professional, but taking as much crap away from my day as you can, you know, when it comes to that particular piece of work, and, and just really helping bring the whole piece together, you know,  none of us are working in isolation, working with other agencies, you know, and and helping me deliver my objective. That's ultimately what I'm employing you to do. So however, you can help do that is always going to be appreciated, I think. I think the other thing is, in whatever type of agency contract or relationship we have, that would be like regular reviews, those relationship audits are so important. And I think for them to work in the best possible way they need to be 360. So the agency can review the client as well as the client review the agency. And it's always done anonymously, you know, so, of course, you can normally work out who said what but that's beside the point. But I think it is really important because a good client should want their agency to improve and they should want their teams to improve. And if so, you can do that like twice a year or after a big campaign or whatever it might be and having a kind of structured, for each kind of production and account management , creative, you know, you have a few structured questions. And just it really just helps to kind of bring any issues out really understand where things went right where things went wrong, what can we do more, or what should we do less of, how should we change, and also has been a big issue or with have a wash up meeting, you know, I had one recently when I was at Anglian Water where there was an issue. And it is not about apportioning blame, it shouldn't ever be that no one should ever kind of worry about going, the biggest problem was that Dave screwed up. And it was like, Alright, Dave, let's kind of understand how that happened. You know, what, what was it that led to that decision? And you know, unpick it that it doesn't happen again, it's not about what, fire Dave, I don't want to see his ugly face ever again. You know, it isn't about that, if you're a good client, you should be much more empathetic to particularly when you are this, you are loading an awful lot of pressures on the agency when this particular campaign I'm talking about was geo dependent, location dependent, weather dependent it you know, there were so many variables in it, and across so many channels, inevitably, something was gonna fall over. So we were lucky, it was only one thing. But when it did, it had a bit of an impact. So you know, okay, one thing fell over what happened? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again, you know, I've never been the kind of manager that screams and shouts at my teams, I'm not going to do that to my agency either, I just don't see the point. Jenny  Do you think agencies ask for feedback enough? Sam  No, they don't. They're bit scared. They're a bit like, Oh, we might find out something we don't like I'm particularly in the pitch scenario. I think the other thing is even putting, like the likes of the AAR and the intermediaries to one side, since I've been running pitches, for however many 1000s of years, only one agency has ever phoned me directly to ask me why they didn't get a business. One. You know, which is mad really , I was quite happy to tell them. Jenny  Why do you think yeah, they you said that they're scared. Any other reason that you think that might be happening? Sam  I don't know. You know, when I worked with agencies as a pitch consultant, and you know, one of the things that is quite often said to me is, we're quite often the oh you came in really close second, and why is that? And my first question is, then what what what, what have you asked, the clients that have told you that, you know, what, have you started kind of compiling that client A said,  it was because of this, client B, said that, you know, if there are either a theme emerging here, or that something that we can start to kind of put together. And quite often they don't, I don't know whether they rely too much on the intermediaries or they think it's an imposition to phone the client, you know, but it's again, it's like, don't be scared about doing that, you know, this, we're just normal people, like you guys, just give us a buzz. And if we can't answer you, or don't want to answer you, we will tell you, but if we're happy to, then you've got nothing to lose. So it is just about trying to get as much kind of experience together. What you know, it's like, it's like the relationship audit, you know, after the pitch, if you didn't get it wash up. Why didn't you get it, be honest? Don't be afraid to say well, actually, it was because the MD just didn't stop talking. And maybe he shouldn't be in the pitch. Or maybe he should come in at the end, you know, manage the individuals and egos is the hardest thing. But if that's what's stopping you winning business, it's something you have to face up to.  Jenny  It's so true. I'm actually thinking about my early days in the agency world where we didn't get a pitch, and I know that the the MD didn't stop talking fully enough. And you can just sense that you think this isn't this seems really flat, you know, and of course, he didn't get it. But I think that's really good advice about giving, you know, asking for feedback productively.  What do you think about clients that before the pitch, they don't give the agency enough access to them? You know, a lot of agencies complain to me that they're going into pitch for a piece of business, but the clients you know, they get the brief, a maybe they're allowed a window of half an hour  with all the other agencies to asks a few questions. But what do you think about  client's being more open to agencies contacting them beforehand to get some more context? Sam  They absolutely have to. You know, bonkers. I can't imagine trying to, you know, if we go back to the getting married scenario, you're not going to marry somebody when you've only spoken for half an hour. So if you really want to have a proper collaborative relationship, you need to get to know each other. And what I always make sure that I do is build in at least two hour long follow ups with the shortlisted team. So they'll probably be one at brief stage it might be just a half hour call to do a QA and so you you schedule that and it's  individual it's never with all the agencies at once because that's not fair. And then for the ones that are shortlisted and then answering a brief or putting together, you know, some example creative, whatever we've asked them to do. Then there'll be another either face to face meeting or a call or, you know, currently a Zoom probably And how are you getting on? You know, is there anything you need to ask us now? Is there anything that's not working for you. And the other thing that I found in that process, almost inevitably, the agencies that you think at the beginning, are doing really badly, like in that interim stage, when you, when you have that kind of get together and think they haven't got it, they haven't cracked it. And another agency is doing really, really well, almost always, they will flip around by the time they come to present. And the agency that were doing badly wins the business and the agency that was doing brilliantly falls at the final hurdle. Don't know why it happens, but it almost always happens. So it's really important to kind of see and it helps you as well get to know them and see their thinking and how they're working through things and steer them back on course, because it's in nobody's interest if you get to pitch stage, and they've gone completely barking up the wrong tree. So you do need to make sure  and I think it goes back to my   thought of trying to run it differently next time. Because in the real world scenario, you wouldn't brief an agency and then go bye see you in six months, you know, three months or whatever, you would work with them on the campaign until you had something you're happy with. So why should the pitch scenario be running these very old fashioned kind of , can't possibly talk to each other during this process? Now, I realise it's time consuming. And that is the biggest thing about it. But it's a big investment. So you should be prepared to make the time and try and find and try and prioritise that time in your diary. Because if not, you're not going to get the best result. If you don't potentially. Jenny  I absolutely agree. I think it also shows commitment from the client to the agency, because many agencies just think, well, this is a huge beauty parade. There's probably at least five others, if not 10, 20. You know, there have been pitches where, you know, it's like throwing, you know, spaghetti at the wall and hoping something sticks, they seem to throw it out there to agencies, loads of different agencies. And I suppose from an agency's perspective, yes, many are good at qualifying those opportunities first. But quite frankly, if perhaps the financials aren't in the place where they need to be, they might take that opportunity, but then they go on to waste their time. And time is money, as you know, they know, unfortunately, that's the business model. Sam  Yeah, exactly. You don't want to waste time. So I think the other thing that's really important if the  clients don't have a beauty parade, you know, I've always been very, very certain that whoever is on that shortlist, we should be able to work with any of them. So there should be no like, Well, they've done a great job. But we, you know, we didn't like the MD becuase he didn't shut up, you know that there shouldn't be any of that, to have got to that final three, whatever, any of them should be able to win it. So I think it's not fair to have a beauty parade. Absolutely not. Jenny  No. And sometimes they think that they're making up the numbers, you know, and you find that out afterwards. But this, Sam, I'm just conscious of your time, this has been so rich with insight, and I'm sure loads of people coming away with some thoughts and ideas for how to do different things. And I would like to just ask you a couple more questions, if that's okay. Do you get approached from a new business perspective by agencies?  Sam  Yeah, I, certainly less than I used to. When I started my career  as an interim, I did more consultancy and agency pitch work. And it's kind of morphed into more interim marketing director work. But yes, I still do it. And I'm yeah, I get the occasional approach. But I think what would be really nice if it wasn't always the, we've got this pitch next week, and we haven't done anything about it. You know, so there's 11th hour things. So yeah, but certainly what, what I tend to do is, is help, I kind of call myself a surrogate client, because I help them think about the brief from the client's point of view. And I think one of the, the biggest tips I would give you is that the client doesn't always know what they want when they write that brief. So if you're slavishly answering it word for word, you're not necessarily bringing your best game to the table. And I think particularly as you know, as agencies, we were saying earlier on agencies are multi disciplinary now, and everyone can do everything, supposedly. So it's quite hard sometimes for the client to know what type of agency they need, or even what type of campaign activity they need to run, you know, it's just, I've just got this thing you know, that the old days of I need a media agency or I need an ad agency, are so long gone, that you you much like as I was saying, earlier on, about as an internal client, you need to come to the team going, Well, here's my problem, how can I solve it? That's why I personally really like the intermediaries because they can help you kind of sort the wheat from the chaff at that early stage. But all that said, It is about looking at the brief and thinking you know what I'm what I'm actually seeing here is the client wants this. They've expressed it in this way, but actually their challenge if I know enough about their business, and I've dug into it is this. So I do I have worked with agencies and there was one PR agency that was helping with it with a car pitch that would just went hell for leather on some fantastic stunt idea. It was like, that's a tactic, not strategy. They're looking for a strategy. No, no, no, this is what they want, this is what they want. And guess what happened, they didn't win the business because they hadn't expressed enough, you know, strategic knowledge of what the challenge was, they just focused everything on a creative idea. So I can definitely help them on fixing that way. Jenny  That's brilliant. And if they're an agency that's trying to reach out to a prospective client, any tips on how to do that in a way that is going to make them stand out?  Sam  Oh, that's a really hard question. I think, you know, it goes back to what we're saying, just help solve their problems for them don't kind of come to them, have you got any work? And I'm using kind of really stupid terms. Of course, no one will do this. But you know, I understand that this is a challenge in your sector. This is what we think we might be able to to help or this is what we've done for another brand in your sector and look at the results or have you thought you know, so it's come with a with a challenge and a solution, you know, and just try and it's about dialogue about making yourself useful. I think that's, that's the thing. It's hard to do because everyone's busy and, you know, marketing director, you know, as a marketing director, you're so aware of being cold, called, as well, you know, the Hi, just thought I'd get in touch to you know, so you do have a screening filter on networking, you know, all of those sorts of things. Jenny  And just final question, if you're, if you've got an agency that's working really well with you, and you love them, it's been going on for a while, and they've been performing really well and bringing you new ideas, new insights, etc. Have you ever been asked by an agency of that of that kind? for referrals? Like, can you refer me to other parts of the business? Or can you refer me to other.. Sam  It's really interesting to me, I don't think I ever have actually, I have done it. You know, I have said to other parts of the business all you know, you should work with this agency, and the example about the Mercedes roster got agencies working with other bits of business. I don't think anyone has ever explicitly said, Could you recommend me to someone, you know, if either inside or outside the business? So that's, that's a really good tip. I think do that. Jenny  Okay, so good. Because if someone had asked you would you have helped?  Sam  Yeah, I thought they were a good agency. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's all about helping each other out. So, yeah, I would have no qualms in recommending and I have, subsequently as a client, obviously, I've gone on to, from one business to another and said I've worked with that agency they're fab , I wonder if they could help us. So you know, I,  you keep hold of the good ones. Jenny  Customer lifetime value, love it. Listen, where can people get hold of you? And who would you ideally like to approach you? Who do you work with best? And where can they find you? Sam  You can find me on LinkedIn, Sam Bridger, or sambridger.com is my website. So you can get hold of me through that. And I think the clients that I really like to work with, and this has really been sort of amplified over the last year or so with everything that's been going on are those that have a good sense of social responsibility. I've worked with a lot of charities, I'm not just a charity client. Anglian Water's a really good example of a business that totally oriented itself around sustainability and environmental protection. And looking after vulnerable customers, though, you know  that meant a lot to me. So there wasn't sort of, as I like working with but also loved the hospitality sector, you know, worked in the hospitality sector quite successfully. I've worked with lots of different organisations. For me, it's just it's always about the challenges is what I always say it doesn't necessarily matter what the sector is it's like, you've got to meaty challenge, if the business is a bit stuck, or you know, your agency is a bit stuck. And you need to think about how you can pivot and do something different than yeah, I'm your woman. Jenny  Amazing. Honestly, Sam, you've provided so much value today. Thank you so much. I'm very grateful for Tina for introducing us. So thank you so much for coming, Sam  Pleasure. Thank you, Jenny.

Transcript: Jenny  So I'm really excited today to be speaking to Paul Kirkley. Paul is currently Client Services Director for the fabulous agency MadeBrave. And he has such a huge amount of experience in agency life, that I think this interview is going to be fantastically rich and full of insight and tips. So, Paul, I'm going to pass over to you really, if you could spend a couple of minutes just talking about your background, your experience in agency life, that'd be fantastic.  Paul  Thanks, Jenny. Hi, there. Well, I've had about 25 years plus in the in advertising industry. And I was, I was really, really lucky because I knew from an early young age, what I wanted to do, so I never really wanted to do anything other than working in advertising in some form or other. And I was lucky enough to start at Ogilvy as a grad. And I spent about 8-9 years at Ogilvy working on numerous clients, but being really, really well trained, because the the Ogilvy at the time was a really big sort of training agency. And you had experience within all the different environments of the different departments. So you're lucky enough to get all that sort of training, I was lucky enough to get all that training from an early start. And after I'd worked at Ogilvy for a while before I joined a startup it had actually already started up, but it was quite small. It was about 30 people. And that was really, really interesting, because it was a move from the big agency into a small agency, and you sort of had to move from working between departments to being really all one department. And so you again, you learned a ton more stuff of how to really get stuff done in a in an agency. And I then spent the bulk of my career at JWT, after five years, I left that agency, the startup and joined JWT and that was fantastic. I've always been in account management, I've always loved the sort of creativity involved in the whole industry. And once I was at JWT, I was head of account management, I was head of new business for a number of years. And I worked across all the different clients that JWT had. So local domestic clients, regional clients, global clients, and for the last sort of five or six years there I was a global business director. It was fantastic experience with you know, hugely talented people that that, frankly, selfishly I never stopped learning from. Jenny  And you're very modest actually your account management team, correct me if I'm wrong, was 120 people. Is that right? So that is some feat to look after so many, Paul  I think it was the biggest account management team in London, possibly in the country. So yeah, it was a lot of people. But again, you know, they were they were brilliant, hugely talented, all really, really interested in brands and really interested in sort of how to get the best work for their clients. So it was a joy. Jenny  So if you're one of these lucky people that knew what they wanted to do at an early stage in their career, and then presumably just pursued your path, Ogilvy fantastic training ground? What do you think that training gave to you that perhaps other account managers in different agencies don't get? Paul  Well, I think it gives you a massive understanding of what motivates different people in different parts of an agency. So if you apply yourself in each of the different departments properly and sort of thoroughly throw yourself into it, and think about it through their, the different people in those departments eyes, you get a very different perspective of what actually motivates a strategist, or what motivates a creative person, or even what motivates an account person. And I think being understanding of that and respectful of that is something that you can only you can only learn if you've been exposed to it in a in that sort of way. And it really it changed how I sort of operate in an agency because you suddenly realise that all the different departments are so valuable that you , the more you can understand about what makes their lives easier and better. And frankly, what they're ultimately sort of inspired by means you can set everything up as the account person to make their lives more favourable, easier, better, but for their work.   Jenny  What did you learn if you can remember this while back about how to work with clients? I mean, that was a really useful exercise and i think i'm sure other agency, maybe leaders are thinking, yeah, maybe we need to invest some time in the team so that they can sit in the places of different people within the agency. What did you learn at that stage about the client and working well with the client?    I think one of the things you learn is getting it's the benefit of being in a big agency is you have a myriad of quite often quite big clients. So you're operating with, again, hugely talented marketeers who really understand the broader picture of, of what your what you can obviously offer and what they are actually after. And I think the benefits of it is, is that you just are exposed to so many different types of people, that you get just tonnes more experience. And you can perhaps in in unfortunately, in a smaller agency, it's a different kind of experience. But you're you're witnessing and being exposed to so many different problems, that the different clients have that after a certain amount of time, you feel you just have an innate confidence that builds because you're, you faced so many different problems, at least once before. And they're quite often the skills that you learn from one client or one particular brand is transferable to a completely different category, or completely different client. And I think that's, that's probably the biggest thing that you, you learn from that sort of mix of different types of clients. Jenny  And I suppose it gives you exposure to the business perspective. Because if a client has one particular challenge, and you deal with so many challenges from different clients, then you start to get a picture of the types of business problems that you are fixing for the for the clients, right? Paul  Absolutely, yeah, there's, there's so many different problems that arise, but very quickly, you start connecting the dots. And if you if you're lucky enough to work across a variety of different clients, and even not at the same time, you just have to be able to remember those situations you faced, you faced and hopefully help them through. And then you kind of bank it. And then you can use that bank of information, bank of experience, we like to apply to anyone else who comes in the future. So quite often, you know, you after a number of years of that kind of experience, you start to almost work out that individual business problems are not that individual. There are actually things that you can learn from other clients, other brands, other campaigns, other situations that you know, people have been in. Jenny  I suppose it also arms you with the types of questions that you want to be starting to ask the clients at the briefing stage, the more that you are exposed to their different business challenges and communication challenges and problems, right. Paul  Yeah, I think one of the things you have to be wary of if you have been through a lot of those experiences is not presuppose or prejudge those situations. So it's a very good point, I think, often the best briefings come out of the best questioning. So the ability to be someone that's open to listening, you know, everyone always talks about agencies that they never really listen. And I was, again, taught read that early age that you know, you have to really be a good listener when you're especially when you're an account person, because it's that's listening between the lines of what someone is saying and those kinds of meetings, is where you really unearth the truth, the truths if you like, and so I think it's that ability to not prejudge, or presuppose you know, the answer or jump too quickly to the answer. Is it again, a very sort of, it's an important learning to have Jenny  I 100%. agree with you, Paul. Funnily enough, it's one of the key aspects of my training programme is how to ask questions. And we actually have a framework that can be adapted for different scenarios. And I just had an instance with a client of mine who, who had started to ask questions differently to her client. And a client actually said to her, wow I started, I was going to brief you on one project, but now we are talking about three different projects, because she'd been so good at asking questions. So I think it's kind of underrated, isn't it? Somehow, questions and listening Paul  It's completely underrated. And, you know, I think I think what what most people need, not just the not just clients, but I think it's what most people, whenever you meet people for the first time, or even when you're not being curious and inquisitive and asking and being interested, is often the thing that most endears people to other people. So you know, if you can do that in your work life as well, you, you often open up and numerous other doors to other situations, because they're going to be interested in if you're interested. And if you're genuinely interested, you know, even even better. Jenny  Absolutely agree. Fantastic. Okay, so that we've talked a little bit about, you know, the early years and I want this podcasts to be fuel for thought or food for thought, for people listening, who perhaps aspire to be a client services director. So you really have reached, you know, level, you know, managing 120 people in that CSD role, then going beyond to be, you know, global business director, etc. But tell me, what do you think makes a superb Client Services Director?   Paul  Well I think the role of account management firstly is is to, is to create the right environment for the best world class works be developed on behalf of your clients and your agency. So creating the right environment is the biggest sort of role for anyone in account management. And ultimately, what that means is, it's about becoming, in my opinion, a trusted advisor. So be someone that your clients view as someone they can trust, and someone whose advice they can trust, it's, it's the opposite of being a sort of transactional order taker. So it's very easy in account management to, you know, just take orders and go back and deliver what's been asked for by the client. But that means you're only ever reliant on the last project. Whereas if you can build this kind of trusted adviser status with your clients, and not, it's not a sort of something you hide behind, it's something you have to actually do, you have to be someone that that is giving advice that they can trust. So in a way, what that means is internally, you need to be able to lead and direct and encourage teams to do everything possible to create that environment. And externally with clients, it means it involves inspiring those clients to entrust you to develop that world class work. So  it's a tricky area to get into. But if you're genuinely interested in your clients problems, and your clients business, and you genuinely can offer them some advice that's trustworthy, then you're more than 50% of the way there because that that is, in my humble opinion, what what makes the great account people and the great Client Services directors. Jenny  Brilliant answer, and I love that view. If someone's listening to this, they might be thinking, Well, what could I possibly offer them advice on? If you know, they know their business better than I do? Like, talk me through maybe some examples of how you can provide advice to the client?    I think it's about the first thing is it's really about trying to make them and their brands successful. So there's no agency that successful when their clients aren't successful. So the first thing to think about is what could we do to make our clients and their brands more successful. And that could be just having a point of view on the current situation with their brands, it could be looking at what their competitors are doing. It could be just sharing some information about successful ideas that you've seen or work that you've seen. It's also I think about, about being, you know, massively ahead of the client curve as much as you can. So being aware of what's coming down the track for them. So again, being very close to their business. And, and thinking about what is the next thing that's coming down the track or the next three things that are coming down the track? And how could if I was in their shoes, how would I prepare for that? How would I What would I ask an agency to do? What would I want them to come and come to and to do? And then specifically in the agency, I think it's it's really about inspiring a team or the team to constantly outperform, to constantly think about what is not okay, don't settle for what's okay. Because anyone can just deliver, you know, what's what's been asked for? It's always about pushing for what is the next world class result or next world class answer. Jenny  I love that. Always thinking ahead, always looking at future trends, things that are coming down the line that are going to be relevant, because we forget sometimes don't we, the client goes deep in their business, but they don't go wide. Like we go wide with different industries. And interestingly, I did another interview with another account manager from a different industry, funnily enough, and he was saying how much he brings. He looks for trends happening in other industries, completely different industries that you can borrow, and adapt. So that's fantastic advice for anyone that's aspiring to be really good at account management. So leading this team, a CSD. How do you spend your time and what do you think are the skills you need to really be good at the role of leading the account management team?  I think that i think some of the things that you can do. I'm sorry, could you repeat a question, Jenny?   Jenny  I've got this terrible habit of asking about three questions in one question. So it's nothing to do with you for the, I'm really looking for the skills that someone needs to be a good CSD, because I'm sure there'll be people listening to this, maybe you are an account managers level, account director level, but really want to go higher and advance their career, what are the skills they should be maybe looking to acquire, in order to be very effective in the role? Paul  I think you have to be quite organised. And I think you need to be able to simplify things. So I think it's very hard when you're dealing with clients who have often got, you know, lots and lots of plates spinning off and don't have a lot of time, they also may be paying the agency quite well. And they don't, they don't really want to spend more time than they need to, you know, talking to the agency about their problems, they want the agency to go and solve them. So I think the ability to think, very, very quickly and single mindedly about how to get to a solution is a really important part of the role, then I think sort of just being fascinated by what your clients businesses is, I can't reiterate how important I think that is, I think it's the most interesting part of the job. I mean, I was always taught to learn everything you can about your clients business, so that if they were unable to go back to work for a  bit, you could step in and take their role. Now, that's, you know, obviously hugely arrogant, but it was a sort of nice, humble horizon two aim for it was like, you know, try and try to think of yourself, what are the things that your clients are worried about, that you could help them with, so that so much so that even if they weren't able to be in work that day, you could step in and probably, you know, help them that day when they weren't there? I think also banking as much as you can of what works. So find out what works. in marketing, find out the work that works, finding out the work that you admire, and your clients admire. And ask yourself as honestly, as you can, why do you think that work works? Why? Why is it really working? What is it? Why is it engaging with people? Why is it changing people's behaviour? Why is it changing people's perspectives? What is it about that idea, or that approach that changes how people view their lives? And the more you can sort of learn about those, the more you can have an interesting sort of bank of information like that bank of ideas, if you like, the more you can apply those across your different clients. And again, you know, having that when you when you see people that are fantastically rich with insight, it's, it's usually because they've got that knowledge, they've just banked as much knowledge as they possibly can. And they've got a very honest view of it. And they've been probably honest with themselves about how, how successful that thinking is, and why it's worked that they have been able to apply it to other other areas. Jenny  That's such good advice, actually. Keeping abreast of what's happening in the marketplace, what what work is out there, what does your client like, you know, what works? Why did it work? How did it change behaviours? Great tips there. And in terms of your role as CSD, and your previous role as CSDhow much what was your role in client meetings? For example, you know, you have a team, they're going to be the sort of delivering the work, but how do you input? Where do you input? Where do you think you bring the most value? Paul  Yeah, good question. I think I think one of the temptations is to is to sort of suffocate people in those sorts of meetings. And, and the best, I think the best CSDs do the opposite of that. So they're much more empowering. So they they will help and mentor and coach people going into the meetings, and even during the meetings will not chair the meeting, but they'll try to sort of ensure that the meeting flows well,  the agendas adhere to any additional thinking that might not have been covered by the team could be brought in by the CSP, just to sort of embellish that thinking. But I think it's more about you know, setting the team up for success and  allowing them to gain from your experience because the, the you know, ultimately you want that team to succeed. So the role of the CSD is not to take over the meeting or shine or run the meeting. Quite the opposite. It's more for them to my opinion, so then to empower and inspire the other team, the rest of the team to success. Jenny  I'm glad you said that, because I've had a lot of account managers say to me that they sit in the client meeting. And unfortunately, they're, you know, more senior peer takes over. And therefore, they end up not saying anything. And the client has the impression that you're there, you know, you shouldn't even be in the meeting, let alone have an opinion or a view. So I agree with you. It's good to orchestrate. So that you are, like you said, shining the light on the team? And how much juice does the CSD role get involved in agency operations, new business, other factors? Other than kind of, except developing and growing existing clients? Paul  Yeah, well, it's it varies. I think it varies in different agencies. And my experiences is quite a lot in those two areas. So I think if you're running a reasonably big department, and then the agencies quite rightly expecting you to have a point of view on how the agency is operating, and how the work is coming through the agency, how it's coming into the agency, you know, is it all those things that would fit with operations? And then I think on new business, I think, again, you know,  why wouldn't you put someone who's got lots of experience of different clients, and, you know, working on your business, into that into that sort of world as well. So, in all my experience on running as a CSD, I've had a lot of, you know, exposure to operations, a lot of exposure to new business. And I think, you know, quite rightly, because I think if you've had that sort of been lucky, like, I have to have that exposure to all that work, and all those different situations, it's, it's very, very helpful to have someone in the room who's, you know, just been in a similar position and face those sorts of challenges. Jenny  Brilliant. And could you maybe show us the other side? What do you think some of the challenges are in being a CSD? Paul  Well, I think I think the, one of the biggest challenges is probably when something goes wrong. So you end up being quite rightly, you end up being the person that is accountable for something going wrong within the agency. And again, quite understandably, if something goes wrong, ultimately, is it's good to have someone that is accountable for it, and the buck stops with them. But I think that you know that anything that when it does go that wrong, I think the way to view them is that the way to view those situations is there's opportunities to fix them. So, again, I I learned from someone quite an early stage where they said there's there's never a problem there's always an opportunity. And, and in fact, they used to say if they weren't, if there weren't any problems, we wouldn't have jobs, which is a really nice way to think about it really sort of inspire me to think about how, how you how your role with clients is actually really perceived. And in fact, if something goes horribly wrong, as long as you fix it quickly, and fix it well, I've actually found it to be a very, very helpful thing. And people actually remember the agency that fixed the problem for them. They, they respect the agency that and the and the team of people that acknowledged it was a mistake, were honest about it, they didn't hide it, they they were completely open about it and transparent about it. And then, you know, authentically changed it, changed how they were, you know, and resolve the problem. And that's always for me has always been seen as a big positive by clients.   Jenny  How would you describe your leadership style, Paul, because I know, you know, you, you have a very calm, experienced kind of approach, you know, that that's very reassuring for people that you are in charge of? How important do you think that is? For the team, you're, you know, I'd love you to spend a couple of minutes just talking about your leadership style and what works. Paul  Yeah, I think I'm quite that's a very good question. I, I think I'm quite a sort of, as you say, I'm quite calm person, I doesn't really faze me. So I don't get fazed by big problems at work or stress at work. In fact, I thrive on it and I like it. And I think that, again, it sort of comes with having been in lots of situations, not the same situations before but similar situations or face similar problems, whereas you can normally see a way through it to an art to and to an answer that's going to be a successful answer. And I think my style is to try and help people to see the same answer that I can see without telling them that that's the answer because they in that way they learn as they go along. So it's a much more of a mentoring style and coaching style. And in some respects, it's, you know, it's I think it's quite a strong leadership style, because you're constantly encouraging people to go the extra mile to do the extra step to just think beyond what's being asked. And of course, when they work it out eventually for themselves that that is the answer. They'll never forget it. And so they then repeat it. So I think that that sort of style has always worked for me, and I've never been a sort of cheerleader leadership style, it just isn't me. I'm much more, I think, considered and more sort of calm than that. And I think that, probably, because that's how I reacted to my previous bosses. I prefer that kind of a, of a boss and that lead, and I respond to that, and it, you know, inspires me. And so I've basically adapted that style. And, you know, it's been very helpful to me. Jenny  I hope there are agency leaders out there listening to this, because I agree with you, 100%, I think it's so much more, we've used the word empowering, but you make your team so much more independent, don't you? If you're you're training them to think in that way. And the only way they're going to do that, rather than you being the hero, that you become the guide. So I think it's a fantastic management style. And what what changes? I'm interested because you've been in the industry for so long, what changes have you seen throughout your time in terms of how agencies are operating? Paul  Yeah, I think I think there's been quite a split now. So quite polarisation is possibly a little bit to do with COVID. Actually, but I think for the last sort of 10 years, there's been a split between short termism and more sort of, you know, kind of sales very sales focused, and what I was saying earlier about being a trusted advisor, and I think that's that is starting to polarise the business a little bit. And it's, I think, partly driven by, you know, that the pressure on agencies to become more profitable, if you like, in a, you know, what's a, you know, a tougher world now has forced some of the agencies into that kind of world of short term sales, rather than, you know, being a more long term partner and having a, you know, more sort of longer term view with your clients. And I think the other big changes, I mean, everyone will say this is is the understanding is the, the requirement for the whole agency, but particularly account management to understand digital, the digital revolution. So I think that, you know, in the past, I think some agencies were able to get by with not everyone embracing that. But I think that it's utterly impossible now, if you're not, you need to be interested in it, you need to be curious about it, you need to understand it, you need to genuinely embrace it. And you see the people that haven't, and then they're not, you know, they're not really working in the industry anymore, because they just haven't chosen, they haven't chosen to embrace it. Jenny  Well, what would you say? If anyone's listening thinking, oh, gosh, that's me, I'm not moving fast enough with the times do you feel that there's any sources of, you know, any people that you follow, or any sources of information you, you listen to or read, to keep you ahead of what's happening, what's changing so quickly. Paul  So I'm lucky enough to have children of the age that they are sort of innately intuitively digital, so source is to talk to them, they're, they're so knowledgeable. But it's mainly other people. So I've found in the agencies without words, that that's the best source for people to, to you know, to take to to learn from, I mean, just by hanging around with those people, you just by osmosis gained so much knowledge and you know, once you connect with them, they're sharing as much as as much as you need to know they're sharing everything you mean, you don't need to be so, you know, did so involved in it. But you do need to know enough to be able to advise clients and be and frankly be trusted by clients on it. So I yeah, I mean, I do follow a lot of people on social in this sort of area, but it's there's none of that, you know, there's no one particular person I draw out but I think just having a hunger for it and being interested in it and and enjoying it is is probably the best advice. Jenny  I agree because I don't work in an agency full time I still am plugged into the agency strategists and they share a lot of their learnings and thoughts. And, and I've learned so much. I mean, I think a lot of the agency strategists look to different industries for what's changing and evolving, like gaming and sports and music in different industries, and they get their influence from there. And yeah, I think that's that's a good point. And what, what, if any challenges do you think have particularly been presented to agencies around working remotely? Paul  Well, I think I think the biggest challenge is the, it is harder to build and maintain relationships. So you know, and also, I think the ability to see, body language on these calls is very, very difficult. If you're working with a client, you know it and it's not just for the agency to see whether the client likes what you're talking about, or what you're sharing, or whatever, it's the other way around as well is that everyone misses I think that kind of body language. And if you're not connecting regularly, and you're only connecting virtually through video calls, then I think that's disproportionately affecting some of the situations because of COVID. I think the ways to sort of overcome it. I don't think there's a rocket science thing for this, I think, I think you need to have, you know, regular calls with your clients. But not just when you need a call. So I think it's worth sort of establishing them. But most people are open to having a conversation or a quick coffee or beer in the evening, or whatever it is just it's just a nice way to make it as normal as you can, to normalise it as it was prior to COVID. I think regular sharing of anything you find of interest, any articles, you see any links you see, I think, you know, there's it's not again, rocket science, but I think that is something that people enjoy. I think they respect it, they like the fact that you're thinking about their business and, you know, to earlier points, that's what you should be doing all the time, you should be constantly thinking about how can I make my clients life easier? How can I make them more successful. And then I think, you know, just the small thing is, I think when you're on video calls, I think it's quite easy to miss what the action points are as a result, or what the summary of that particular video call is, because they're a slightly different experience for both parties. And I think it's, you know, a lot of a lot of agencies, I think, have sort of lost the, you know, the, the contact report, or the call report of those meetings, has sort of fallen a bit by the wayside. And I still think those are very important documents, because they're not political documents, they're just summaries of meetings, which help, you know, as people go from one call to the next to the next to the next, they just help everyone to work out what they need to do as a result of that call. And I think it just is a, again, it's another thing that you can follow up with to keep the contact going. Jenny  Yeah, keeping everything on board. Absolutely keeping everything on track and keeping it moving forward. And, Paul, you've got an awful lot of experience with global brands working on global accounts. What do you think if there is an agency listening, thinking, I want to be working more with global level accounts, rather than local? Do you have any kind of, can you explain to us, what are the key differences in terms of how the agency operates? Paul  Well, I think you can only really work properly with global accounts, if you have a global outlook. So I think you have to be someone that is, you know, is  interested in what's going on in the world. So most of the global clients that I've ever worked with are, some of them are really, really genuinely global citizens, you know, they've lived all over the world, they you almost don't know what nationality they are, because they're so global. And they are very interested in what's happening in the world, all over the world. And in fact, they can look at any part of the world and see their company or their brands challenges in that particular environment. So I think the ability to think beyond just the domestic world that you're in, as an agency person, and look for inspiration around the world, in different markets, different countries, different brands, different companies in those countries and markets is it's a bit like just being very curious about your clients business, butexploded across the world. And I think I think it's, you know, it's just really about immersing yourself in that and genuinely looking and but you have to be genuinely interested in that. You have to want to do that. You can't just go, I wish we could be more global, you have to go, I'm interested in the challenges that this particular brand is facing in this country. I wonder how we could help them in this country, and connecting the two and growing and growing from there it is, it is a different sort of mindset. That doesn't come from just having an office in another country, you have to have people on the team who have that global perspective and interest. And, it's, frankly, a sort of cultural interest in what what different different differences and similarities there are, across the world. Jenny  There's a theme coming out of this isn't there, I mean, for in terms of behaviours and skills that you need to get far in an account management career is really continuing to have that interest, that thirst for knowledge, that curiosity, as you say, to really put yourself in the client's shoes, and to really immerse yourself in their world so that you can become more valuable. So thank you for continuing with that theme. Can you give us any examples of where you as a client services director has really added value to either your agency or the client or both?   Paul  Well, I think you know, resolving conflicts within the agency, I think, is an important part of the role. So inevitably, when you've got lots and lots of bright people with very strong opinions, who think they're right, and both parties might well be right. But in the end, you often need a sort of mediation person who can bring, you know, the team back together again, accept the fact in fact, even applaud the fact that there might be a know, difference of opinion. But you know, often great creative ideas come out of, you know, very strong differences of opinion. And you kind of need to encourage that, yet treat it on a very professional basis, rather than a personal basis. So I think the Client Services Director, in those situations, you know, a big part of the role is to be able to galvanise the team, bring everyone back into the pointing in the same direction, accept the fact that nothing is personal. It's not a personal point of view, it's just a business decision or business disagreement. And, you know, and get everyone back back together and pointed in the same in the right direction, and almost agree to disagree in those situations. Jenny  Something just occurred to me while you were talking there, because you also experienced and if you are leading a team, and someone's listening to this as a CSD already, and they want to maybe get more inroads within their client companies to have C suite level conversations, do you have any kind of tips that you could share from your experience of doing so? Paul  Yeah, again, I think, as you said, you know, a lot of them all roads tend to lead to sort of being as interested as you can, in your clients business. And the more interested you are, the more likely they are to share the issues that they're facing. They will ask, they'll, you know, open up to more situations where they think you might be able to help. And ultimately, the more the further up the sort of ladder, you can get to being a trusted adviser, you almost get to the point where you can ask, you know, I'd love to be moving up into a sort of, you know, C suite, or I'd love to meet so and so who's got this issue that you've talked about? Could you introduce me to them, and the closer that bond with yourself and the clients, the more likely they are to say, you know, what, I think, you know, A should meet B, because they've got an interesting perspective on something that we didn't realise they had a perspective on. So the more the more you can, you know, listen, and ask questions about your clients business, I mean, informed questions, you obviously are trying to get, you know, a proper perspective, a professional perspective. But the more you asked that, the more likely, in my experience, you are to sort of be introduced to a wider audience within, of clients within an organisation. Jenny  It comes down to having that valuable point of view, doesn't it? And if you're bringing external perspective, external trends, things that are happening that the client needs to be aware of, then they may spend some time with you. But if you're not kind of part of that conversation, and I call it the begging bowl approach, you know, like, can I have five minutes with no, if you want five minutes with me, you have to bring something of value, because they're busy people. And how do you think agencies just in the future are gonna continue to evolve? And how can we prepare for that? Paul  I think, I think agencies will continue to be under sort of financial pressure And I think that they will increasingly move into as many deliverables, the many areas have different sort of skill sets within the agencies. And I think that's probably potentially quite dangerous area for agencies to go into, because I feel that a lot of the sort of deliverable natures of what agencies are doing now is, is being offshored, it's being sort of pushed down the cost of it or being pushed down. Whereas the, for me the more upstream strategic thinking, for an agency is where the future for agencies lies. So I think the ability to come up with will help clients come up with powerful strategies for success, but also to be able to help them deliver what needs to be done in order to achieve that is a is a nice to have. But I think that the upstream thinking is where agencies will increasingly successful agencies will increasingly be more successful. Jenny  Yeah, that's, that's good advice. I mean, I follow I don't know if you've heard of Tim Williams from ignition Consulting Group. He always talks about pricing models. And, as does Blair Ends, but you know, how we price I think, probably needs a revamp, and I know, many agencies are doing that successfully moving to more value based pricing, etc. But I think I think you're probably right. I mean, we are, you know, a lot of the work that we do is commoditized, unless you're bringing something different unless you're adding the value that we've been discussing. So that's, that's good perspective. Do you have any tips or advice for anyone who is aspiring to be a CSD in their career? Any, any words of wisdom? Paul  Well, I think, you know, I will, again, reiterate that I'd be as curious as you possibly can about your clients. And I'd be as helpful as I can, as you can to all your team members around you. So the more you've got people within the agency saying, you know, he or she is a fantastic asset to our team, they really, really bring the team together, they identify the vision that we should be heading after. They're very, very, you know, truthful, they act with integrity, they never talk behind people's backs, they they eradicate the politics that inevitably exists in some of these places. And the ending, if the same is being said by clients, then I think you know, you, you're well on your way. And then I think just you know, it's important just to enjoy it. No one likes people who look like they're in, in pain, doing their job, they really want to be surrounded by people that are enjoying it. And the more the more you surround yourself with people that are enjoying it, the better  the job is, you know, I mean, it's a pivotal role in an agency. And I think if you're in the world of account management, I can't understand I could never understand why someone wouldn't want to be even more pivotal as the CSD and enjoy it. Because it's, it's a, you know, no day is the same. It's  a fantastically exciting role, where you just have a different challenge every day all day. Jenny  it really comes across that you enjoy your job pool, which is a joy to see. And I absolutely love your insight into sort of modelling the behaviour that you want to see in your team. Because if you're all stressed out, no time, a little bit aggressive, you know, you start blaming others, that just sets the tone for the whole agency, doesn't it? Yeah, and I believe I mean, I've worked like yourself since the early 90s in agencies, and I think leadership really starts at the top. So the behaviours that you have are going to filter through the agency. So enjoying your work, you know, embracing challenge, embracing change, and setting the tone, I think is that's a fabulous tip to finish on actually. Do you have anything else? Anything that I have haven't asked you that I probably should have done? Paul  I don't think so. That was a thorough set of questions. We've covered everything.   Jenny  Well, saying thank you so much, Paul. And it's yeah, it's been a pleasure to chat to you. Thank you so much for spending the time with me today. Paul  Thank you, Jenny. Thanks a lot.

 Jenny  So today's episode, I've got something a little bit different. I'm really thrilled to say that James Aldrich has joined me. And James actually works in account management, but in a completely different industry. And I thought how exciting it would be to have someone from a completely different industry to give us a perspective on account management, to see what we can learn from other industries. So James Aldrich, he works in the software industry, and he looks after accounts, in the telco space. So James, would you mind spending a few minutes just talking about your role? And how you actually got into account management? James  Yeah, thanks, Jenny. So I'm in a major account director, I've been selling software and being an account manager for 21 years now. And I wanted to be in sales. And of course, you know, from business development into account management when, when you bring new clients on board. And so I've had a mix between hunting and farming the last 21 years. Jenny  And tell me, you know, the value of account management because I asked the same question to everyone. But I would love to hear it from your perspective, having been both in the business development side and the account management side, what do you think the value of the role of account management brings to both your company and also to your clients? James  Well, I think that I don't really, honestly see a huge amount of difference between business development and account management, I think that part of what you're doing is looking after a client is to extend your network anyway, which is very similar in the way that you do with your account. And how you establish the relationship between your company and yourself. And the the client as well is, is a kind of a reflection of within the pre sales process, and how it should be within the post sales process as well. So the value I bring to my clients A is a knowledge of expertise within the platform that we support and sell for service, also within the industry, but also as a conduit into other organisations as well. A lot of my clients want to learn what other companies are doing sometimes within their own industry and outside of it as well and, and give an idea on best practice and, and opportunities that they could leverage through this kind of combined network as well. So kind of the value that I bring to my companies for that is a single point of contact, I have access to some of the best people in my industry, that work for my company, that support me, I'm very lucky in that base as well. And they are always a professional reflection upon the company. But more importantly on me as an individual, my integrity to that organisation, because ultimately, in business development people buy from people. And through account management, that trust is sort of elongated through the lifecycle of a client. Jenny  You said something really interesting to me, before we had before we had this interview, which was your values, and you said, it's really important for me to align my personal values with the values of the company I'm working for? Can you finish off that story? Because I thought it was so, such a powerful thing to say. And you started off by saying that, but it was the most important thing for you. Why is that good?  Yeah, it is, I think, through your career, the one thing that follows you is a reflection of your behaviour through each of your clients, and the value we bring is your network. So everybody that works with me and for me on the support of my clients, I say that these are your clients, what is your contacts, you know, and how you define yourself is a reflection on the values of you in an individual, if there's a misalignment between my company values and how we behave. And me personally, that becomes an integrity issue. And it won't just sit with that company, it sits with the individual as well. So yeah, values are 70% of the reason why I work for a particular organisation are the values match between what I believe is important. And of course, you align them to the client as well. And that's why business development and account management sre not that different, because because it's a continuation of it. So the company feels that they can work with individuals. But primarily, they believe the platform that we support and sell is the best in the market and meets the requirements. And they're also going to be able to follow that through because in any project that I do, occasionally there are issues that come up. And you need, the client needs to feel as though we're approachable and we're contactable and they need to feel that we have their sustainability and success at heart. And that is really at the heart of the core values we say customer first in everything we do. We also talk about white gloves experience, you know, making sure that every point of contact within my organisation and how we engage and interact has to be a certain level of dedication, quality and it has to reflect the values of that company. Primarily authenticity for me is the most important thing you know, we talk about being your true self. You can't fake it. It's you can't fake passion. You can't fake enthusiasm. You're either enthusiastic for what you're supporting and what you're selling or you're enthusiastic to work with the client you're working with, and you're enthusiastic in the role you've got. And again, making sure that the core of that is, in your values is the most important thing for me personally. And the reason why I choose in my career who I work for, Jenny  There's a couple of things that I want to pull out there, which were really interesting for me, the first thing you said, which I think is gonna resonate with a lot of people listening is I also bring the value of my network. Just the first part of the question really is, how proactive were you and have you been in networking? You know, and how do you network?  Okay, yeah, honestly, everything. So my, before I joined my current company, I work for a company called Anaplan. And before that was Oracle, and for that SAP, so I work for big organisations that will already have an established brand within a particular organisation. And when you join a smaller company, and you're starting to reach out, you realise, in part that the value you had previously as being part of a big company, like Oracle doesn't exist anymore, so you really need to re establish your customer brand. And that is through the network. So there's a lot of pressure on people at the moment, especially in during the day, how do you get access? How do you reach out to people, because you can't call up an office cold calling is completely unacceptable. In my view, if you're calling someone's personal mobile that on LinkedIn, you can get access to people's mobiles, or companies that will gather people's personal mobile, but for me, it doesn't reflect the ethics of how I manage it. So I don't I do it through referrals. I do it through referrals with a partner that we work with the GSIs, or do it through other companies that I've worked with, or, or people that I know already. So these days, everybody knows everything, and everybody can find everything out. So and I think 80% of the sale is done before you even engage with the client. So how you represent your network, and how you support your network is probably the most important thing in my role, which, if I know that I'm introducing people that will add value to the clients that I'm working with. And also will support the credibility that I'm working hard to establish within that as well, then it becomes kind of a quid pro quo, we'll support each other through that journey. And the partners that I work with like Deloitte, Accenture, EY etc, they will help introduce me into different organisations because they know that I reflect a particular level of expertise within my field, which is a value to the clients that they're engaging with as well. And then again, it's completely aligned to what is the objectives of our companies collectively. And ultimately, I'm going to keep saying and sustainability of the clients because at the moment, it's not about how, what are you going to plan for what comes next is about the speed at which you react to it. So if I can help become a conduit into my organisations to support that. And people are losing their roles as well, they're losing their jobs as well. So part of what I'm doing as well as is engaging them with other companies that are looking for people because one one industry come down, another goes up. And you know, technology is being pretty, weathering exceptionally well. So if we can help support those individuals through that journey, it becomes a much longer career plan for myself and for them as well. Jenny  With referrals, do you tend to organically sort of receive referrals? Or do you actually actively ask for referrals, where it benefits you?   James  Yeah, every every, there's one of the things I always find at the end of every meeting is is somebody else, this will be a value to somebody else, that it'd be useful to somebody else that I could speak to as well. Nine times out of 10 or so why don't I just keep it to me that becomes quite personal. With what I do and what we do. However, there's it quite often resonates you can get, you can sort of grow that network as well. And I do that as well, with the partners we work with where we know they're engaged in different clients, you know, who can you recommend that we go speak to, can I reference you kind of reference our conversation and then try and gain access that way you got to be a lot smarter these days on how you grow it's a lot slower a hell of a lot slower to work. But I was lucky that because of the company I'm currently with and I built it up from nothing that I'm well established in that area now. And as one of my clients will tell me, there's nothing that's been thrown at us we haven't managed to deliver upon. And when you meet that expectation in any conversation, you have and any form of communication you have whether or not you put a LinkedIn post, you're doing a direct mail, you know, on any form of communication or credit or webinar, it's my time is more valuable now and my home life is more disrupted. Ensure that it's very specific to that individual. I don't think the shotgun effect that you know, we used to do back in the early 2000s it really works anymore, I think. I think it's gonna be much more tailored and much more specific and a lot gentler as well. A lot softer touch. This is of interest, if it is great. If not, is there somebody else I can, do you think it will work for? Jenny  You see, that's, I mean, it makes total sense. And it's, it feels like a no brainer when you say it, but actually, I teach people how to ask for referrals. Because, believe it or not, one of the things people struggle with is actually how to ask. And particularly if you're an account management role, and you're asking your client for a referral, you know, you've obviously got a long standing relationship with them. And you don't want to damage that relationship. So there's a real fear sometimes with, you know, appearing too pushy, you know, saying it in the wrong way, getting a rejection, any tips or advice or words of wisdom for anyone that's maybe in that position?  James  I think part of the, your intuition should tell you, you know, I always say go eager on everything. If you don't feel it the right time, then don't do it. And it's a pretty simple thing to do. But, but I think it's quite a British thing to do, America's much more accepting of sales. And the acceptance of the role in one of these is quite an embarrassing thing, we believe to be involved with that. But I think as soon as you accept that there should be a level of empathy. And if you've been respectful and appreciative of a person's time, they should also understand that you're doing a role and doing your job as well. And never be afraid just to say, you know, just somebody else I could talk to, and or can you put me in contact with so and so? And are you happy for me to use your name when I do it? No, okay, they'll give me their email address or whatever. Because the way that you've reflected yourself in that first conversation should set the bar of how you reflect yourself in the next conversation. Because if you're asking somebody to refer you, and you've gone in, poorly, you've gone in aggressively or too pushy, then they're not going to refer you full stop, you know, if you really want to wind up somebody in sales, then you get a call from a headhunter that's very aggressive. And you should pass the name of one of your friends or somebody you don't like and say, yeah, go get them in a conversation. But I think that and that actually, for me, for two things have really transformed everything. One is in my industry SaaS, Software as a Service, it is easier to cancel a subscription and replace something because technology is, is so agile these days, whereas when I worked at Oracle, you know, the investment level, and how complicated it was to put in place, and you're stuck. So the renewal becomes more important. And that's why if you get a win, and you get somebody that buys into it, and you make them personally successful, and you appreciate that there is something personal for them in it, then it becomes a no brainer for them to make that referral and be part of that journey as well. And I know I'm sort of jumping between that first point of contact, you know, finding the contact, reaching out getting the project, but exactly the same step throughout the process, which is whether or not business development, account management, pre/ post sales, you know, the quality and clarity of communication is what's important. And know your subject, know the industry, know the client, and reflect yourself with a with a level of credibility as well. Jenny  Tell me about those renewal conversations you have, like you said, that's a really important point. And particularly if you're, you know, what the average value of one of your accounts is approximately how much? James  I'm not really allowed to say I'm afraid, but it is publicly available information but our earnings coming out soon. So I'm not gonna say anything about that. But let's just say, yeah, it's between high six and seven figures, it's between what I worked with as well, and but it sort of becomes it to me, the value that's realised off the back of it. So we I make a very conscious effort to work with a client and get my team to work with them to help them at certain points understand what is the value of an investment, because again, it can be lost, you invested this much, what was your, you know, not just your ROI, but what's your hard and soft touch value of it. So at the renewal point, if you're thinking, well, we're spending seven figures, but we're making 10 figures back easily, or, you know, or 10, plus, you know, spending a million you get a hundred million back, that's a pretty good level of investment. And, and we can demonstrate those kind of things. So the renewal point, it shouldn't be a point of, we want it cheaper, we want the same but for cheaper, it should be very much a point of all we getting the value we expected out of the back of it, if we've done our job right, then the renewal becomes a no brainer, but but I always say up front of my first ever meeting, the renewal is more important than the land. We don't get the land right, then we won't get the renewal and for the sustainability of my company, as a shareholder in my company, as well, that the renewal become more important. It's their long term goal. And if you get that land, then you get the opportunity to meet expectation, you get the opportunity to grow or expand through that journey, then the renewal is even bigger than when it started but but with a focus on the value to the client. Because if again, if your investment levels, a client there and the return you're getting is there, based on whatever business case you're measuring against, then yeah, it's a no brainer. Oh, by the way, if you repeat that same principle across every part of your business, then your investment level doesn't accelerate as quick as that. But the savings, the incremental value to accelerate far greater as well. And often companies like in, especially in the software industry, they don't take the time to work with a client to help them understand that. Somebody who originally invested in it leaves, somebody else comes in, we've got this stuff, we don't really understand what benefit we're getting from that. But we've always been using it. And it's such an important aspect of what we do. Because when you go on from what we used to sell, which was on premises technology, let's make a significant investment, and spend a year implementing or two years implementing it and we're stuck. Now you can make a reasonable investment. And you can get in place within a month or two. And and you get value within the fiscal year. And we need to just continually measure ourselves against a client's expectation of value and I've said values a lot and value. But yeah, my core values and value monetary or intangible or tangible benefits the client as well. Jenny  That's a really good point. I've got an idea for the podcast title now. Okay. So I was thinking, actually what you said, a lot of this comes down to the metrics that you calculate at the beginning, isn't it? Like, what is the value that we're expecting to provide to this client based on the investment they're making, and what we've seen as the expected returns, and then it's about making sure that it that is visible throughout the relationship, you know, until you get to the point of renewal, because then you can prove what you've achieved for the clients. So and I think the reason I'm saying that is because sometimes in the creative industry, it's less easy to, to have those hard metrics at the beginning, or, you know, it's overlooked. So I think what you're saying is to put you in a good position, you need to reflect back at those renewal moments to say, look how much we've achieved look at what we've done so far, so that it the renewal becomes a decision that they make, very easily.   James  Through the journey, just some of the products I do, they're looking for hard benefits, but a lot of the products also get intangible or soft benefits off the back of it, and they should never be ignored. I mean, in my view of productivity and efficiency gains, what can you do, what better decisions you have you made after using what we're doing? How do you better support your customer. And ultimately, within the industry, I support Intel telco, it's all about the customer journey. So the same way that I try and ensure that every touchpoint I have with my client is a certain pedigree, the best we can or honesty to say honesty is probably better, because there's things we can do and things we can't do. And it's better that the client knows that as early as possible, as well, in the same way that they try and do the same thing as well for their customers. But if you've got 32 million or 54 million customers, that's a lot to manage and support that way, but they try and reflect every project they try and do is how does it impact the customer? Does it give us one version of the customer, so that there may not be an instantly recognisable, tangible benefit to a hard metric against that, you know, a lot of that's realised after you've done it. And actually is one thing, I do see that the Americans do very, very well in their products, they'll, they'll, if they got 10 projects, they'll kick off 10 projects, two of them won't work, but the other 8 will be great. A lot of the again, the cultural difference over here is they're much more much more conservative with what we're going to do. If it already works, why why fix it? And you'll say, well, it doesn't need fixing, it needs improving. And there's something else that COVID has really transformed as well, it's given company, the opportunity now to think about where they're going to be in three years, and focus very much on what the outcome is going to be everything's about the outcome, how are we going to be able to put ourselves in a position to come out of this quickly. And not just within what I do, but everything around supply chain and supporting networks as well, are built around this, as well and intelligent, you know, individuals that I work with that are really thinking, well, I already understand what we do within our industry. Tell me what that industry is doing. What can we learn from that industry? And the thing about software companies are they're kind of a conduit between different industries, you know, we're like a central point that we work with oil and gas, work with travel and transpor,t work with the banks, you know, and and there's not that many other industries that do cover such a wide spectrum of knowledge base as well. And, again, that's the network value is, you know, would you be interested in learning what such and such does, you know, and yeah, can you put me in contact with the CFO of HSBC or something and and that's really what we're trying to add value for when I just ended up becoming a conduit. Mainly the most important thing for me is that is a it's a, it's a well used quote, but Steve Jobs said about having people that are better than him working for him. And it's the same thing I try and do with in my team as well. I understand that there are things that they do a hell of a lot better than me in different areas. And then just making sure they're able to do it. And I know we talked about this previously. And that's a sense of fun, it can be really tough, when you are under a lot of pressure to deliver something within a particular timeframe. And you've done everything you can you try to control as much as you can, and you get to the point there's nothing else you can control it is up to the client there. And then it could be out of their control as well. And you have to accept that. But through that whole through the whole journey, the way you motivate internally is important as to how you motivate externally as well. And that's the sense of passion, enthusiasm. And I go back to values. And my team know that because I'm speak so passionately about the values they're collected, they know that no decision I'm going to make is going to be counterproductive to the client. Because they don't have the targets that I have. They're interested purely in the client, My interest is my customer or my company as well, I made sure we meet our number. And, you know, I try my best to reflect that. And you know, I've been very lucky, very successful in doing so. But I always say that, especially now, we may need to make decisions in the short term that are in the client's interest more than they're in our interest. So we need to balance the scales a little bit more in their favour, make them sustainable, and we'll see the benefit in the long term. Jenny  I'd like to focus in on that on the targets that you set by your company. And also perhaps this could be tied into how you grow an account. You know, so you've got a really good client, it's huge. You've got a team working on it. Presumably those touch points throughout the relationship are what do they do like quarterly business reviews or kind of strategic meetings that you're having on an ongoing basis reflecting on the metrics on progress? Or do you get invited to client planning meetings? Or C suite conversations? James  Yeah, all of the above pretty much. Yeah. So it depends basically, where they are within a cycle. So they're seasonal, in part that they're are more important periods than others. It depends on whether or not , sorry to use the word again, that whether or not we add value in joining that meeting, and doing so we have a role and a purpose to play. If we don't don't do it, there's, you know, things that be more important to do. I'm dead against meetings for the sake of meetings, even more now that I'm at home, and you can see your day via slot, a 30 minute meetings with no lunch break or anything, it becomes impossible and managing hours worked longer. So what we try and do is really reflect, you know, get an agenda really tight on what we're doing and why we're doing it. But the other other, we call them 'art of the possible' sessions that we do quite often with C suite, which is, again, you know, what could else we'd be doing, let's use our imagination to come up with something else we could be doing. And then we pull in the relevant people from our external companies that have an expertise within a particular field to support that. The cadence is important internally as well. Because I don't feel the need to be on every call that I have, that my company has with a client, I just made sure they're all aligned to the same strategy within there as well. And I trust the people that manage that and support that as well. So but that can, that can be reflected throughout the year. But a lot of what we do is we get pulled into, we want to do this, can Anaplan do it? And you know, the thing about what I, what we sell into the service we have in the platform that was built is that yeah, it pretty much can do anything. And it's pretty unique in the marketplace, which is why we've been very successful. But ultimately it comes, we drive it right back to education, make sure the client knows how the expectation what they're going to deliver. And that's when we set up the project plan, in effect of, you know, when are we going to do the sprints, when we're going to have the reviews, you know, the scrum reviews and the different parts throughout the process. And as it's going to get busier at that point when we agree the user stories and then deliver against them, okay, we'll get more meetings and manage that follow my role is to make sure that my team are not pulled into too many meetings, that are not reflective of what they should be doing as well. And it's just everything. There's no set structure to anything, it all depends on whether or not as well, the client wants to have that conversation. So although, you know, sometimes we become a bit reactive, which is absolutely fine. And we should be more reactive at this point as well. We made the recommendation, can we have a conversation? You don't know what we're gonna be talking about, then don't do the meeting. Yeah. And that's why a lot of people in my company want to talk to my clients, they want to, oh, can we be introducing such and such and talking about? What do you want to talk about? No, there's no value and having that conversation with that individual, I can give you that information. So let's step away from that. And, and part of that's me protecting because of course, all of my colleagues want oh could your client go and talk to this one? Because we really want them to do that project. Okay, and I get that a lot, you know, 10 times a week or something. No, that's not in the my clients interested do so. But, you know, on the back of it and one of my big clients has done a number of events in the last couple of weeks. We've delivered their project we've delivered against expectation and now they're talking about it. And again, it's that's the longer goal, which is the reference out the back of it. And it's that's the mass market reference goes on YouTube goes on LinkedIn, you know, goes on The Economist, all that kind of stuff now and then anybody can see that on and guess what, then we start getting the inbounds coming through off the back of that kinds of thing, we want to find out what they did we want to learn more how I did it. And then we go back in that journey of cadence control. Sorry if I've gone on a bit there. Jenny  No, no, not at all. I'm taking notes as you're speaking, because obviously, this is very relatable for an account manager that might be listening that's working in the creative industry. And what you've said, which is really interesting, that I think we can all learn from is how do you raise your own value for the client, and what you've said, You've said a few things, really getting under their skin and understanding what their goals are, and being quite protective of their kind of time, and who gets exposure. Also, your knowledge of other industries, you know, that must be very valuable for them when they want a perspective on how other people do it if they've got a particular challenge or problem. Also your expertise, because  you've built up your expertise in one particular area, which is obviously very valuable. And then the value of your network, who do you know, who can you bring to the table? Who can you introduce us to, that could also, you know, you said I'm bringing in other experts, because I can see that they they can lend some additional value. So I think, you know, everything that you're saying here is, is very relatable for our industry as well. And there's perhaps sparks some ideas for other people to think about what they could be doing differently, to make themselves more valuable. James  Honestly, I don't really see any, if we base it in sales, I don't see any difference in in any industry or anything you're doing. I think you know, whether or not you're selling a car, or you're selling medicine, or you're selling phones or anything like that, the first thing is understand what is the value to the person you're selling to. So it's not feature function, chuck it out, I'm really big on that, I mean, when I go and buy a Telly or DVD player, and the sales guy just started telling me a whole lot of stuff that I had no interest in, I one particular thing I wanted in this telly. And I ended up just walking around doing it myself online. And that's the big difference of note that he added no value. So I didn't follow through the process. And by the way in onboarding, as well, you get to a point where you're happy to pay a premium, if you know you're going to get something good off the end of it and doing that. And that's the value. So imagine as a baseline cost for anything you're going to buy. But so the bigger reason you're buying from that particular organisation is the people. And yeah, that's all to do with the value where the regardless of what you're selling, and what you're supporting your clients with. It's the same principle. The specifics are the product. The specifics are who you're selling to, but the nature of how you behave yourself. And that's the, that's the authenticity bit that there are good people in this industry in account management, they're are not so good ones. Yeah, people can be very successful. through no fault of their own, I say, because they're very lucky, their timing, they're on point, but they sort of get found out and you get your culture, right, and your work ethic, right, and you do the right behaviours, and then ultimately, you'll be successful. And the people around you should support you in doing so as well. Jenny  Absolutely, because the end result actually is a little bit of a commodity. And for many clients, it's about the experience of working with you as well, like, Is it a pain in the ass to get to the end result, you know, you might be getting me the same business outcome, but I want to kind of make sure that that journey isn't like pulling teeth. And going back to my previous question about growing an account. You know, obviously, there are different ways of growing an account. But tell me your view on best practice when it comes to thinking, Okay, I've got a target. And I've got a really good client, we've been working for a while together, they're really happy with where we've got to what we're doing. Where do you see the growth opportunities. James  Get it right first time. So no matter what deliver on whatever you promised, you deliver on your promise you earned the right to do something else, if you don't deliver on your promise, and you don't have the right to something else. When we started we call it expand before you land because of the complexities in onboarding new clients. And because we started sharing the vision of what we were doing across an organisation when you worked with a big company, you can do that, you know, there are there are multiple entities and multiple different people. But in what I do, they all have pretty much the same core challenges. And the quicker you solve those challenges, the quicker they get value. So you start thinking what I should be doing this, I should be telling them about this, you know, that should be going to the next person because it's in their interest. And then you start realising through the whole thing. That if I go if I my company, I do a project and I save my company 10 million quid or something. It's good for my career, as well. It's in my personal interest to do this. Then I put up my CV and then I accelerate my career. And then you start realising that you this is the bit you can't fake, which is if you really believe in what you're doing, then the next thing is, is kind of like your duty to try and help the people that you're working with to be more successful. And they will make their company more successful. In doing so their careers will be more successful. Some of the people I've worked with initially, and now moved on to much bigger, better things off the back of it, which is great, because that's my ultimate goal. Because if they've helped me become successful, and I've helped them to become successful, if I recommended you a project and it fails, then it goes completely the other way. And that's, so that's part of  the truth and on itself you have and the project you're doing. And you already know that if you know what you're doing. So how do you expand from what you're doing? Get it right, have the confidence for the people that you work with is how you it's gonna work. And again, that's what I do. I have a chap that works with me, he's incredibly skilled, incredibly knowledgeable, he keeps me in check, which is, I say to him, will this work. And if he says, yes, then we know it work. And he's got that level of credibility, if it does, and we'll deliver against it. And if I see any point of failure through that process, then I've got to be on it quick. And that's the internal cadence that we manage as well, and you get it right, and then you expand successfully. And then you'll see that renewals bigger, which means that it is a much bigger system greater risk. No, it shouldn't be a greater risk, you've done the right things, the client sees the value, and they will continue. And they want to do more Oh, by the way, that person you sold to has now gone to that other company, they've now recommended us as well. If you look at the growth rate of my my company, in the last 10 years, we're went from nothing in a shed in York, was where the technology platform was written by a chap that I've known for 20 years. And a guy that I work with, when I first ever started an ex New Zealand SAS captain who, who became, you know, started this company, again, we're now listed on the US stock exchange, I forget our latest valuation, but it must be well over eight, 9 billion as well. So I was employee number 243. In six years, we're now over 2002 and a half 3000 and the growth, the hyper growth that we go through. And of course, when you grow, you're more successful, the risks are even greater, because you could lose focus. Because you could lose the reason why you became successful in the first place. The reason became successful first place is because you met the client's expectations. And they recommended you. And they recommended you internally and they recommend you externally. And they brought you with them on their career. And when they started with another company, they brought you with them and sometimes the company, but when I see they come to me, they reach out to me, James, I'm now at this place, can you come and have a conversation? Yeah, love to now I don't look after that client, quite often, they may somebody else successful. But as we all should be shareholders in our companies, either materially or, you know, the fact that we're employed by them as well, it's our duty to then support that growth continually as well. Jenny  That's a very, very inspiring story. I mean, what you've also said is that you're continually solving challenges for clients coming up with solutions, making sure that they work, and then presenting them. So it sounds like you're continually adding value. The other thing I want to ask you is given that you're given the your company's grown so fast, and so phenomenally well, how do you make sure during that hyper growth, that you do make sure that you get the right people on in your team, that they're all following the same lead, as you've just explained about making sure the ethics and values are aligned? I mean, how do you make sure that that happens? You referred to it earlier on actually, with internal, you're doing internal training to make sure that each level is.. James  Yeah, enablement, we call it and you know that again, and we do it with a buddy system as well, too, we buddy people up with other people, so they can learn from them as well. But I think either either it's very difficult, because the culture of the company you think will be is set really up for us in the US that's where the values are. And quite often sales has a very different culture from the rest of the company. So you rely on your management structure to reflect that as well. And manage downwards to support that. So all I can do is protect my little franchise, my little ecosystem, and the communication between my company and the clients that I've introduced into my company. And that makes a big difference it becomes quite personal when you do that. So the evolution of account management, from business development to account management, so it's different when you inherit something because it's an opportunity to be better than the person before, but it's also an opportunity to be not as good as the person before with me is that thing well, James has been with us Six years, he knows us, it'd become more of a challenge when somebody else comes in because, you know, they'll lose a little bit of the feeling, they can just pick up the phones and know instantly what's going on. So, I can only do that. And, you know, there will always be points where somebody will come in. And they will have their own view because of how they worked previously and a different company, and it will build change. I talked earlier about the external brand that's valuable to me, my previous company will buy the internal brand. And some people that come from very big companies coming with their internal, you got to build your internal brand. Focus on your internal brand, that's where you manage outwards, not managing downwards, I try and make sure that I'm supporting downwards, because if they're doing what they should be doing, then it's a good reflection on me as well. And that's that, fundamentally, of how I see any level of account management. But I've got people who say they work for me, they work with me, and they very much do, because they have different reporting lines as well. But culturally, as a company grows, you're not going to be able to do it. Unfortunately, you know, as your best will in the world to get the right people in that have the same values as you. And you'll see that people have been there for a long time will move on, and they will keep searching for what they have previously. And they'll find it because you know, that's why they're successful. And companies will become too big to fail as well. But as long as I'm here longer than doing this, then I'll continue to try and reflect the values that I bought into when I joined my company with the clients that I work with. And it seems to be working, which is great. And that's the important thing for me. And for the rest of the company. You know, again, I'm very lucky that a lot of people that work with me and around me have been with on the journey for a long time as well. We try and make people more vested in the company wide success through through shares, and stock as well get them reflective on that, I think is a nice to have, you know, I'm very much focused on what my target is, and, and the customer success, everything else is a nice to have. And then you just sort of hope for the best to be hoest with you there's no way to manage it at my level. If I was running the company, I could manage it. But that guy's in the US and you know, luckily, in the company I work with, I get a very strong sense of passion and value enthusiasm from that individual. So I have a huge amount of respect from him, he is walk on his way to be earn the respect, not expect the respect from his job title, but earn the respect. And I'm very lucky to spend a lot of time with him. And I have direct access to him to help support me as well to be successful. And I hope that he also and people also in our both the leadership team, see the sense of enjoyment that the people that work with me get from working on these accounts. And it was hard to start with, you know, when you when you start with nothing's happening. And you know, you, you calling everybody and everyone said no interested. But then it works, are you aware that this guy has managed to do that, you know, X, Y and Z? Oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about it. And I'll make you successful with that as well. And quite often through your career, you will not find companies that have products to sell, which are as good as some. I'm very lucky with that one, our goal at the moment is not to be the best at what we done. And, and you know, and again, it all came back to meet expectations that match the client's goals and values and continually display them and we call it customer first. As long as we show customer first and then I'll still be here. Jenny  I think that's nice to have, you know, a mantra or a saying that everyone, you know, can James  I'm probably an idealist Jenny, I'm probably completely delusional and an idealist. Jenny  Not at all? No. Do you know what it's it kind of what it says to me is that you're happy doing what you're doing. And I think with all of the years of experience experience I've had working with different account managers, it really comes down to that it comes down to culture, you said it starts from the top and it spreads down. So if someone at the top has that genuine, you know, authentic, passion, energy, and, you know, really wants everyone to succeed and sets people up for success, it really does reflect down throughout the organisation. I think what happens negatively is when you don't have the right leadership in place, because that very, very quickly spreads like wildfire. And that's where you get cultures that, you know, play the blame game and, and it's just destructive. So I think everything that you said is really, really key really this, you know, culture. the buddy system was a great tip as well, I think, particularly while we're all working remotely where we don't have that physical interaction with with each other. How do you make sure that the younger more so that the new people coming through are picking up those values? Are there any other tips, particularly around you know, the situation with how we're working remotely? Is there anything that you could share that might be valuable for agencies that are working remotely that in terms of making sure the account management team are performing at the highest level possible? James  That's a good question actually. Because the way we're working now, I know I've referenced the US a few times, but the way we're working is how the US works. It's how a lot of Central Europe works as well where physically you can't be in the same room, we sort of blessed in the UK, the fact that you can pretty much travel anywhere within a day easily to get to meet.. And the old view of gotta shake someone's hand, they're looking in the eye, no one makes eye contact anymore. This way, we're all looking looking at ourselves, and we're looking away from the camera, that becomes very difficult, I think increases the value on written communication and clarity and thinking, what would you want to receive? And how would you want to read it? Because I get a lot of, my junk mail box has gone through the roof, with material I'm receiving as well, what a waste of someone's time to do that. And what is the best way they can reach out to me, and sometimes it's been a little bit more creative. So if you're in the creative industry, you know how you do that first, every communication has to be reflective of your product, and what you're selling. So it has to be high quality has to be very tailored and very customised for those individuals as well. I think I read somewhere that 98% of cold emails are failing this year. So I my general advice is be more creative in how you find somebody and set up a first conversation, keep them short, keep them to the point. No-one's looking for a buddy, no one's looking for a drinking partner at the moment, that kind of stuff. And that's not a relationship. That's the 90s view. And there are a lot of salespeople that still have a very 90s view of it. And again, you know I worked with people at Penguin Random House a few years back, and you know, they still have a sales team that love to go out for whiskey and do that kind of stuff, you know that but that's a very different way of working, might need to edit that bit out, actually, Jenny? I think that I think what you're always thinking of is, you know, if I'm going to be in a conversation with somebody going to be trying to define the relationship, then every single point of communication, whether or not you're using LinkedIn, which I still think it's incredibly, incredibly valuable tool, but it's become a bit more of a social media tool, which has become a real issue for me. So I don't do InMails, I you know, if I reach out, try and connect to somebody, it's because I know somebody else. And you know, and and, and I've established my external brand off the back of that. Which means that, you know, I can engage with somebody within my industry, and help support them. So I look at my technology partnerships, I look at my my global systems integrated partnerships, as well as we work with and how we can support them and think, can I get you to help support me in what I'm doing as well? I mean, I don't know about the creative industry about how what that supportive structure is.But really, the first point should be in every company we don't do this enough, is to go around the people in your own team, who do you know, where are you looking for? Who can I talk to? That's the easiest one, you know, the next one is understanding people's careers I call it career mapping, which is where they've been before, where they're going, you know, how can I find out about them? And do they know, so So, and you start putting that seven degrees together. And then ultimately, everybody knows everyone, and it all comes down to that thing. Everybody knows everyone, everybody knows everything. Everybody knows when you're not reflecting who you should be, your behaviour is not conductive to proper business. And we get rid of people pretty quick. Don't be one of those people, be one of the people, that means that I want to reach out to you or want to help you. And finally, the only other thing I said that helped me through my whole career, Never be afraid. And the first thing you say is can you help me? I need your help. As soon as you say that people start listening, if you put in an email, I'll owe you one, I wonder if you'll give me a hand? And I need your help? Can you help me do that? It takes somebody less than 10 seconds to respond. So yeah, go and talk to that person. And then you go, so Never be afraid to make that may then ask because you know what they're doing in the US and the US are about a year ahead of us. Because they take chances because they go ahead for projects. And and then what we normally say is however the US is doing, we will be there 12 months later, and it happens, it always happens. But we need to encourage people to make changes quicker. And regarding the way of working on getting everyone settled into I think everyone used to it when the schools go back, I think people are quite happy not to not to have the choice to get back into the office. And certainly my clients are saying that no more than 30% of workforce will be in the office any one time. So it will change it. You know, when you go into the city, you'll be sitting with somebody and they want to make their way into have that meeting, you got to think well, what am I doing? Why am I doing this meeting? Is it a value? If I'm not doing it, don't worry about it, send them a little birthday card or something Happy birthday, but everything you do is very much I'm having this meeting. This is a value to you. And then I'm going to ask something that's valuable to me. Jenny  I think face to face is going to come as a bit of a premium, isn't it moving forward? There's a few things that you said and I'm glad that you brought up LinkedIn and your personal brand because I don't think I see enough creative agency account managers on LinkedIn in an either engaging with their current clients online if their clients are active. But also just sharing things that they're doing, updating their profile, so it looks more creative and more engaging. I think that's a really easy fix, and it doesn't cost you know, doesn't take very much time. And also not to mention being creative in how they reach out to people, I think you made a really good point about the emails or 98% of emails falling flat. Lucy Snell I interviewed her on the podcast, and she is she works for the creative industry. And she's very, very good at helping agencies prospect for new business. And what she was saying she was saying similar thing about emails and cold emails, and how, you know, rather than send a cold email, send a personalised video message that looks as if you put some effort in and looks as if you've really done your research and you've worked out who you're talking to, and why what you're saying is going to be valuable. So that was the point I was gonna make.  James  My only other response to that is  my email server will immediately spam that out? With a video attachment? LinkedIn might be ok, I've never sent a video on LinkedIn.   Jenny  This is the new messaging function that you'd have to get. This has been amazing. I'm just very conscious of your time. James, I, have you got any, perhaps parting words of wisdom or tips for someone who's listening to this thinking? I really want to get into account management. You know, what do you think it's important for me to do or know. James  I think, well, everything that I do, it works for me may not work for anybody else. But I think the thing I've always really impressed upon is that it's continually learning so and learning, you can make sort of make a choice from a whole load of stuff that you pick up from, don't just focus within your own industry, or whatever your own selling focus on everything. Because the founding principles are exactly the same. What works for somebody may not work for you don't do it, don't be told you need to do something, because it's a way of working. And there are a lot of sales methodologies to do, this is the important thing to slice up. And the best thing about doing all those sales training I've been on, is I take elements of them, that will work for me. And then I try and apply them as best I can, because they helped me they have value to what I'm doing. And it helps get over time management's that really difficult thing to manage as well. So I use these things to complement. And ultimately, in helping myself get organised, it means that I can be quicker to react to what the clients will require that particular time. So anybody who wants to get into account management, if I want to do that I want you to be if you're looking back at how I've been a film director, or guitarist in a band, so you know, anyone that says they're passionate about doing this, they're lying. They're passionate about Star Wars, they're passionate about football, they're, you know, they're passionate, they enjoy doing what they do. This role has enabled me to fulfil what I wanted outside of work. It so I work to live. And, and you know what, and luckily, I enjoy meeting new people. I enjoy meeting people for the first time and I enjoy learning about what they're doing. I found it credibly fascinating learning about what companies do. So if you want to learn not only about how to sell and how to support customers, about what companies do incredible tidbits about from my perspective about how companies report customer details, about where we going in technology, I do, what the future is going to be as well. I'm very lucky that what I do has helped me enable that interest and passion and enthusiasm of mine. And I did a history degree. So my goal was originally to bring the handwritten work back into technology sales, I failed miserably and they told me I would do that. The team at Pareto told me, I would fail miserably when I was 21 years old doing that. I don't think I ever I've ever written anything by hand. But my principles, well, I wanted to bring something a bit more personal to her. And I think that if you want to get into it, where you enjoy those aspects of it, of something new every day of something, you know, it's hard. It's it's hard, there's a hell of a lot of legwork to get there. But when you've managed to get there, you can transform everything. And again, Jenny, you know, what's going around me at the moment. So if I can support my family of the back of it, there's nothing more important than that. Jenny  Brilliant, that's a lovely note to finish on. Thank you so much, James. I really appreciate it. You provided so much value, so many tips. And I'm going to pull out some of these key learnings for us to take away to the creative industry. So thank you so much for joining me. James  And the best thing about working from home is I can just stress like this and get away with it. So no one cares anymore. Jenny  No, that's brilliant. Thank you so much, James.

Transcript:So today's episode is a solo episode. And I want to talk to you about presenting new ideas to your clients with behavioural science in mind. Now, what I'm going to be talking about is the idea that when you present new ideas to a client, that for them represents a change in what they're doing already, it's useful for us to put ourselves in the shoes of the client. So why is that important? Well, our clients are often working for companies. So they are measured on their performance and the decisions that they make. So if we are presenting an idea, which might seem a bit of a bold idea, so maybe it's a new campaign concept, or perhaps a new content marketing strategy, or even a new channel that we're proposing, like doing some kind of app, this for the client represents a change. And it's therefore useful to understand the psychology of making a decision to change so that we can present our ideas accordingly. Now, the background to this is twofold. One, I am really studying for writing a book, and I'm doing lots of research. And I've got quite deep into behavioural economics, which I'm loving. And secondly, I'm reading some research that came out in December 2020. So behavioural economics is the study of psychology, if you're not familiar with it, as it relates to how we make economic decisions, and they use experiments to develop theories about how we make those decisions. And for many of you listening, you'll be very familiar with Rory Sutherland, who is the vice chairman of Ogilvy, and is probably the most well known person to have popularised this field of study in the advertising industry. I'm also, as I said, reading some research that came out in December 2020, conducted by a company called Corporate Visions, and it was provided in a book called The Expansion Sale by Eric Peterson and Tim Riesterer, and basically a range of biases have been identified in behavioural science and economics as a result of the way people think and feel. And one of those biases that I want to talk about today is called status quo bias. And no, it's not the band, if anyone's that old, they remember like me, the very popular band, but it means that people prefer essentially things to stay the same, even if staying the same isn't the best decision. So if we are thinking about our clients, and we're presenting new ideas to the client, that might mean that they need to make a change of what they're doing currently. So it's useful to address these different points. So a simple example, if you shop around for car insurance, for example, you'll probably get a better deal but not everybody shops around, which would be the rational thing to do. So why does that happen? According to some research, and the research psychologist, Christopher Anderson, in his paper, The Psychology of Doing Nothing, there are four main causes of status quo bias. The first one is called 'preference stability'. And this essentially means that people naturally dislike uncertainty. So a previous decision they made becomes their preference. And if someone tries to challenge that decision, by bringing them some new information to the contrary, they want to quickly resolve that insecurity and uncertainty to default to their original preference. Second thing about status quo bias is anticipated regret and blame. So people think, what if it goes wrong? Will they regret it? And will they be blamed. And if you think about our clients for a moment, their career success could be riding on this big decision they make to either go with an idea that you present or not, or their colleagues might ridicule them or point the finger. So you can see why making that decision to change could be affected by this element of status quo bias, the anticipated regret and blame. The third thing is the perceived cost of change. So people naturally think that if you're presenting an idea to them, that that's going to be costly. And if they stay the same and do nothing, it's not going to cost them anything. And we're going to go through these and see how you can overcome each one. The fourth one is selection difficulty. And what that means is that we usually are presented with an overwhelming amount of information to make a decision. And the decision making part of the brain is just simple. And it needs a clear contrast between what you're doing now, and what that change promises to do. So that element also needs to be addressed when you're thinking about presenting new ideas to the client. So for our existing clients, there are a number of things that we need to make sure that we do during that presentation of this new idea to allay their fears and to make them feel comfortable about making the decision to change. And similarly, if we are prospecting for new business and talking to completely new potential clients, we want to be disrupting their status quo to challenge what they're currently doing. And maybe we are challenging what they're doing with a current agency. So we have to disrupt their thinking. So it has two consequences, the status quo bias. Because for our existing clients, we are their status quo bias, we are their choice of agency.  So let's go back to how we present an idea to a client that's already a client of ours so that we are not disrupting their status quo of decision to stay with us. But we are disrupting the status quo with what they are doing in their marketing capacity. So let's think about those four things. Again, the first one was preference stability, people don't like to make change, because uncertainty is uncomfortable. So what we can do during our presentation of a new idea is to first of all reinforce why they chose us by showing them the results that they've got from us so far, and some progress on the goals that they are making as a result of the work they're currently doing with us. And that should allay their preference to believe that just confirms their preference stability, for choosing us, but then we need to destabilise slightly what they're currently doing in their, in their marketing activities to consider making a change to think about our new idea. So we need to destabilise their their current thinking but without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And the idea is so different, that they might think, oh, we might need to get a few more agencies around to help us make that decision. So we need to present evolving trends that will be affecting our clients and what they're already doing to meet their current goals. And by doing those two things, we are anchoring the client in their decision to choose us.  The second thing is anticipated regret and blame. So if we think that the client is going to regret making the decision to change, we need to allay their fears early in our presentation. So we can provide evidence of success through the work that we've done with other clients. So we can show them case studies of similar clients who have made a decision to change to do a project with us. And we can show case studies of it being successful.  And then the third element was perceived cost of change. And as we said, we as human beings, we think that if we make a change, it's going to cost us money. But the cost of doing nothing can sometimes be more of a loss to us, because we might be losing out on an opportunity. So we need to, during our presentation, show the cost that's been invested so far, to create the momentum we've already created with the work that we're doing so far, but also highlight the potential loss of not making that change. And I'm going to give you an example in a minute so that the theory kind of makes makes sense.    And then fourth element was the selection difficulty. So how can we show our clients or simplify the client's decision to make this change? Well, simply we can show them what the pathway looks like if they continue to not take any action to make the change or to capitalise on this opportunity that we're presenting to them with this new idea. And similarly, what happens on the pathway, if they do make the change, what's the upside, so really being clear about what the selection could look like either way. And just to put an example around this, if we go back to the beginning of preference stability, let's suppose that we are a content marketing agency, and one of our clients has done ad hoc projects with us so far, but we want to propose to that client that they do a whole content marketing strategy with us and a key messaging workshop so that we can really understand the bigger picture and bring all of those elements together. We need to, in our presentation, counteract four of those elements of status quo bias to persuade the client, why this might be a good idea for them.  So the first element as we remember is preference stability. The presentation has to start by reflecting on all of the ad hoc work that we've done so far in our capacity as copywriters because they've done ad hoc projects with us so we can show what projects we've successfully completed to date, perhaps the metrics that we've been able to achieve maybe it's increased reach or percentage engagement from the work that we've done, or maybe we've been driving attendance to an event through the pieces, the copywriting pieces that we've been doing so though that is delaying their fears reinforcing their choice of us.  Secondly, if we want to help them understand that change is needed, then we can present the facts of these evolving trends. So we could say that according to the Content Marketing Institute, for example, 86% of other marketers who revised their content marketing strategy, expect the adjustments to stay in effect for the foreseeable future, meaning that the majority of other marketers are actually revising their content marketing strategy, and therefore, it would be a good idea for us to do the same. Similarly, you can throw some statistics out there in terms of the new platforms that people are using. And again, citing the report, you could say 66% of B2B marketers, like you said that LinkedIn was the best social platform for generating best overall results. And as we know, from the work that we've done with you, so far, LinkedIn hasn't been a key focus for us. But we know that it's been hugely successful for many others. So we think that it's worth us, looking at your entire content marketing strategy, and how we might incorporate LinkedIn, as a social media platform, in that overall strategic approach. And then perhaps we can talk about the use of Instagram for paid social, for example, and the rise in how other marketers are currently jumping on that trend. So these are all evolving trends that are in our ballpark, they're our, our area of expertise, they build on the ideas that we're already working with the client on. And so therefore, we are asking them to think differently about what they're currently doing. The second element is an anticipated regret and blame and we certainly don't want our idea to be regretted. The way to counteract that for this example that we're using at the moment is to remind them, first of all, for all the time and resources that we've spent so far developing the momentum and show the case studies of other clients who are also revising their strategy and the success that they are having.  And then thirdly, the perceived cost of change. So we need to make sure that we highlight that if the client doesn't change, there is a potential downside of not changing. And as we know, from Daniel Kahneman's research, he won a Nobel Prize for his work in this area. And he found that people are twice as likely to make a change as a result of a loss, a potential loss, rather than a gain. So we do need to highlight if we don't change and conduct this new, you know, review of the content marketing strategy, then, if we stay the same, it could be damaging if we show that the impact on brand reputation as a result of not updating the messages that, you know, have needed to be changed in light of, first of all the research, but also maybe current events, like the pandemic and how consumer behaviour is changed, then, you know, it could be detrimental to our brand. So that's another example of how we can show them the cost of doing nothing.   And then finally, selection difficulty. And this is where we can clearly show them examples of what other brands are doing currently, perhaps, if they don't review their content marketing strategy, and continue with messaging that was relevant last year, for example, and the backlash that they can have for their brand from their customers. And on the upside. If they do revise their content marketing strategy, we could show examples of how that really is conducive to consumer brand, consumer sentiment and how successful other brands have been.   So I really hope that that has given you some food for thought about presenting new ideas to your clients. And just to recap, those four elements of this status quo bias are preference stability, anticipated regret and blame, perceived cost of the change and selection difficulty. So if we are thinking about presenting ideas that help our clients change, then we need to be aware of how their current thinking is around making changes.  If you've enjoyed this episode, this is just one part of a nine part process that we go through at the Account accelerator. So this one part is included in the section of my Account Accelerator training programme, all about growing existing business and how we can make sure that we go from unpredictable project revenue to more predictable account growth by making sure that we have a client centric approach to account growth, and this is one small element of what we go into a lot more depth on and other elements of psychology that help us in the way that we manage clients.  So if it sounds intriguing to you, and you'd like to know more, I'm running my next Account Accelerator training programme on the 15th of April 2021. So please let me know if you're interested in joining that one at Jenny Plant on LinkedIn, or jenny@account managementskills.com. Until the next time.

Transcript:Jenny  Welcome to the Creative Agency Account Manager podcast with me, Jenny Plant,from Account Management Skills training. I'm on a mission to help those in agency client service, keep and grow the existing client relationships, so their agency business can thrive. Welcome to Episode 16. This episode is with Andy Young and Laura Cohen. They're both strategic account managers for Skeleton productions and Skeleton is a full service agency specialising in video production. In this chat, they share some brilliant tips and ideas for you if you're an account manager, and you want to enhance your account management skills, and be seen as more consultative with your clients. So they're going to share why shifting from being a good relationship builder to taking more of a challenger approach with your clients works, how to build trust with your clients, so they take risks and do bigger and bolder projects with you, why keeping your finger on the pulse with future trends happening in your specialism is key to ensuring your clients see you as an advisor, rather than an order taker. What a pre flight questionnaire is and how to use one, and why you shouldn't be scared of the word strategy. They're going to share tips on how they've kept decision makers engaged throughout projects, and how to get things back on track if the project goes awry, and so much more and so many more valuable tips and ideas for you. So I really hope that you come away with some value from this episode, grab a pen, take some notes, because they really don't stop with all of the brilliant ideas. Enjoy. So Andy and Laura, they are strategic account managers from Skeleton productions. And I'm really thrilled to have them on the show because from my side, I think they're going to share some really interesting insight into what it's like to be a strategic account manager. So Andy, do you mind if I start with you? Can you just spend a couple of minutes talking about your role, what you do and how you found yourself in account management?  Andy  Yeah, thanks for having us on, by the way, Jenny. Yeah, so me personally, I'm strategic account manager at skeleton, we work with our clients to offer top level strategic advice for their video content. Sometimes we branch out a little bit further than that. But primarily, it's helping them achieve remarkable things with video. And I kind of came into Skeleton through another agency that was full service. But one of the things that I really, really enjoyed about working there was video, so I kind of made the move to skeleton purely because of that. But before that slightly different world, I used to work in craft beer. So I used to work for Brewdog. And then I ended up working for a smaller company after that important beers from America and distributing in the UK in Europe. So it was quite a bit of a shift. But the sales and the marketing side that I learned while working in craft beer really, really helped me take that first step into agency account management. And then from there, I've just kind of grown really. Jenny  Really amazing. Thank you very, very interesting and diverse background. And I'm glad you said that the brewdog experience helped you in your current role, I think, and what specifically I'm here just before I move on to Laura, what specifically do you think was the key thing that helps you having worked in another industry and another type of organisation? Andy  I think sometimes it lends some like transferable skills. I think when I worked at Brooks, I was customer facing as well, it does, I guess, really, really helped you with your confidence with that. And then you also learn how bigger companies work and grow quality work there, it was quite a quite an expansive growth. So I think you'll learn about what it takes for a company to grow. And that's essentially what we're trying to do with our clients. We're trying to help grow a part of their business, grow their offering, grow their team, we're trying to grow something. And I think I learned a lot about that by working at Brewdog.  Jenny  That's a really interesting and key thing, though, that you just said was like the business you understood the business outcomes and from a client's business perspective, because I think from my side meeting different agency account managers, that's the shift you need to make, isn't it to bring the most value. So that's really interesting. Thank you for sharing. Laura, welcome. Can you spend a couple of minutes talking about your background?  Laura  Yeah, certainly, once again, thanks for inviting us on today. It's really, really nice to be invited. So I am a strategic accountant manager at Skeleton I look after about 10 of the agency's accounts, and they range from B2B to B2C clients and all varying sizes from SMEs to global organisations. skeleton is very different to what I've done before. It's very niche. So we're a full service agency that specialises in just video and editing motion related really. And we offer video strategy right through to delivering the content and distribution. And that's a mix of 2D, 3D animation, and really using the app storytelling to create compelling stories that engage and delight our customer audiences that ultimately drive results, but they're also very niche and it's very focused just on video and motion which is different to my backgrounds previously. So previously, I've worked in full service agencies in the 20 years that I've been working within marketing, I started off as an account executive from a trafficker, all the way around out to an account director level and also working in marketing as well. So I have worked on the client side too so it's very different in that we are very focused in terms of the you know, when we should just we do video and we do motion. But it has allowed me to draw on those experiences of where I've been in marketing before, for instance, and been a client myself understanding of what's important to the client, and what's also important to the agency. And I felt, I feel like that really helps kind of, you know, shape your brief, understand what the client's business objectives are, and not just say, from the agency points of view. In terms of the other areas that I've worked with full service, I think it just helps to have that knowledge, just to know where else you can possibly help the client. So although we specialise in video, it's not to say that we can't say actually, you know, you really need to do some work with your SEO, well, you really need to think about this. And then we put them together with some of the connections. So kind of drawing all that experience to helps.  Jenny  I think that's what I love having worked with both of you, I could see that you both have a strategic mindset, as your title kind of suggests, where you could add different value to the client in lots of different areas. So just what do you think is the key benefit if you've got an agency listening that's deciding to specialise in maybe one specific offering like you have? What do you think are some of the benefits to an agency to really focus in and specialise in one area? Laura  I think one of the benefits of the agency is that we are absolutely experts in that field. So we will know all of the latest trends, we will know everything there is to do from strategy, right for delivery, right through to what the latest things are happening and creative. This is what we do day in, day out. And it becomes second nature. And second nature so much so that, you know, we forget this, sometimes when we tell this to our own clients, you know, we have to sort of spell that process out because we do do it every day. Whereas other agencies video is an add on, it's a bolt on, it's just another surface. But we do is this is what we do every single day. And we and we do it because we love it. Jenny  That's brilliant. Andy, I remember a few months ago working with you, you were looking at trends that were happening in the market for some of your clients weren't you in terms of what was happening, future focus, and I've seen a lot of your posts on LinkedIn, which, again, is a very sort of impressive action, for me to see through from the account management community, actually positioning yourself as sort of leading in that field.  Andy  Yeah, and the people that you're working with, you've got to think, as I said, like video is very, very niche. And so it's a very, very small part. But it is a rabbit hole when you start learning about it. And you're starting to try and be forward thinking and I think it's a great position that you can be in to do that to then lead your client, they're not coming to you saying can you do XYZ, you're saying to them, Look, I've spotted that this is happening, your competitors haven't done that yet, I think you should be doing it. Because that feeds into your objectives as a business, you want to be thought leaders, you want to be the best person in this industry. So we want to help position you like that we've got several clients that are like that they have got very, very strong competition, there's very, very little differentiation. And so by us, like focusing on those little wins that we can kind of help them with. And as Laura said, it's stuff we do day in day out. And it's almost very, very normal for us. But it's not for a lot of people I could say video is a very, very small part of their marketing mix. But it's very powerful as well. Jenny  Laura, what do you think, above and beyond, you know, looking at future trends? What other things, and bringing them to your clients, what other things do you think are valuable about the account management role? Laura  I think it's being really the account management role in terms of adding value to account management, is that what you mean, in terms of how we add that value? I think one of the values that strategic account manager brings to the client is that we really get to know our clients, both in a professional sense, but also in a personal sense. And having that greater understanding and in depth understanding of your clients objectives, their challenges, it allows you to understand the brief and to interpretate, the brief for the greater team, like the devil is always in the detail and as a strategic account manager and account manager, if you don't have the answers for the creative team, you know that we're never going to deliver a brief that is that is the creator that is on brief. And we almost have to act as if we are almost kind of creative directors in some sense as well, we have to have the answers. So you have to know your client inside and out, you have to make sure that the brief is right. And you have to make sure you're adding that value in you're asking those questions get to know your client well enough so that the outcome of that brief is exactly what they're expecting. And it gets the results really, I think there's nothing worse than not having the answers for a creative team as a strategic account manager.  Jenny  Yeah, it almost puts the personal pressure on you internally in the agency, doesn't it to kind of come up with the goods, but also forces you to ask the right questions in the briefing session with the client. Yeah, and what's your experience been with him?briefs in general. I mean, I suppose we've all been guilty of doing a bad brief. And we're at some point in our career, I don't know about you, but I'm recalling a really bad moment in my career, when I walked into the creative department gave the brief, she read it, and then she just threw it across the room. I had to go out of the room with the tail between the legs.  Laura  Yeah, I had that in mind. One of my is the second agency I worked in when I moved to Nottingham, and my creative director there, he was ruthless. And he would literally throw them back at me when I mean, one after the other. But that was great learning. It was great learning to know, you know, what goes in is what comes out. And you have to ask all those questions. And you have to challenge the brief, because actually, sometimes the client, that isn't actually what they need, it doesn't meet the objective. So actually, so I and I have that quite a lot with my clients in that I have to challenge the brief. And they appreciate that because it shows that we're listening, it shows that we're listening, and it shows that we're using our expertise, and they trust us. And that often then leads to more work, because actually, we now need to do another video that answers another brief because we've been trying to put too much into one video, which ultimately dilutes the message completely.  Jenny  I love that you brought that point up, Laura, because you're right, you're demonstrating your understanding by being critical, like critical thinking, I think with the client shows how senior you are. Because that's the only way that then they they trust you if you are giving them your genuine advice. I mean, the subject recently of consultancy, and us becoming consultants, is so rife at the moment everyone's talking about, and a lot of account managers is changing their title to consultant. So I think that's a really key point. Similarly, there's a study by Gartner, actually, that was done at the end of 2019, all about why account managers aren't growing their existing accounts. And one of the things that it concluded was that there was this absence of having future focused business conversations with their clients, which means that we are painting a picture of our vision for the future business. But also we've got a critical perspective. So I think creating almost that tension in the relationship is part and parcel of becoming more senior as an account manager. What what are your thoughts on this Andy? Andy  Well, I was used to be a when you think of account managers on time you think of a relationship builder. That's what you are, you're there to build relationships. But I've seen myself shifting definitely recently to a more challenger mentality. And I think that kind of shift does elevate you in your in your client eyes, it adds additional value to them. And as Laura says, it allows you to get there, get the briefs and get on to the nitty gritty so that when we go back internally, we can produce the best work possible because we've fully understood their business, we've fully understood their aims. And again, to reiterate what Laura said, sometimes the client says, I want an explainer video for this, I don't want it done like this. And it's like, hang on, let's look at what you're trying to achieve. What are you talking to, and let's see if that is the right way. You're saying you want live action, maybe animation is better. By having that you really get people to think and it just builds, it just builds momentum and and you start to become a trusted adviser. And then they kind of reach out to you saying, right, we're trying to do this in 2021, we'd love to have your input on the content plan. And things like that opened up a whole new avenue conversation, a whole new added value to that relationship Jenny  It's so true. That's so spot on, to kind of build on that point. What other skills do you think you need to be a great account manager, or strategic account manager? Because this is what we're talking about here? We're talking about providing a level of service and a level of kind of consultancy, to fulfil their business needs. So for both of you really, I'd love to know what what are the skills you think are important?  Laura  I think listening is one of the biggest skills you need to have, as a strategic account manager, I think you must have listened to your client's needs, let them talk, you know, let them hit what are the difficulties they're facing? What are the objectives? What have they done before? What worked? What didn't work? Where are they at now? How is it affecting them? Listen, because out of that listening will come solutions that you can present to your clients. And that's not solutions just because you're getting a sale, it's genuine solutions that's going to help them achieve a goal. Interpersonal Communication skills, I think goes hand in hand you have to have those to do the job with people don't only just buy the work they'd people do buy our advice, and they buy us individually isn't, you know, they buy us if we care. And I'd say integrity is really important. You should always act with integrity. The services that we offer should always be right for the clients and the clients objective. We shouldn't be thinking about what products and services we offer that we can shoehorn into our client. It should be the other way around. So I think for me, those kind of three skills are key to being a strategic account manager.  Jenny  I love that last point that you made about sort of our values really, you know, and our integrity. I spoke to an account manager early yesterday. I'm going to interview him on the podcast, he's from a completely different industry. He's from the tech industry. And the projects he's working on are hundreds of millions of pounds. And he started off by saying, values that are the key thing for me. Because if my company, if I'm not aligned with my company values, it's my reputation in the market. Because at that level, it's about your contacts and who you've created relationships with. So you've got to make sure that every role you have, you're aligned with your own personal values and integrity. So I love that point, Laura really well made. Andy, what about you anything that you would add to what Laura said? I think there's some great things there. Andy  Yeah, I think listening is vitally important. I think sometimes if you just sit and listen, a client does generally want to kind of share more with you as well, because people like, like to share about the business, the things that they're proud of the things that they want to improve, and they have genuine excitement about where they want to take their business. And I think would add to that the inquisitive nature, as well, if you've got an inquisitive nature, and you're probing, and you say, That's interesting, that's interesting, I think I want to know more about that, I want to know more about that. And if it is genuine, that really comes across as well. And that goes really, really far in the relationship. A couple of things I would say would be adaptability, this market is ever changing. Tech's always changing, that we use research tools are always changing, you've really got to be on it and willing to go with it if you want to be that forward thinking account manager. I would say, probably now more than ever as well. Resilience is absolutely key. A hell of a lot of work goes into working with clients, a lot of it behind the scenes as well, I think sometimes clients don't understand the work that goes into what you present to them, what your idea is that you're sharing. And sometimes it just doesn't come off. And that's the way it goes. And last year, we had several projects pulled because of COVID. For a resilient nature gets you through those and you get to reap the benefits as it comes back around when those compensations start up again. I think resilience is as a strong one that will will put you in good stead to be a decent account manager. And the only other thing I would add as well is just be a good human being. I think that's really really important as well, in these times, just being a decent human being to each other because it is even though it's business to business, it's still person to person. So be a good person.  Jenny  Oh, no, that's such a lovely point. It's so nice. And, you know, we started off the call, didn't we, Laura shared that she's homeschooling at the moment, which I don't know about you. But a lot of my clients are homeschooling and it puts a pressure on you doesn't it puts a personal pressure on your life, and that's obviously going to spill over into the work life as well. So love that point, you know, be empathetic, and be human. Lovely point. I'm keen to have a few examples, maybe from both of you as to perhaps how you were able to add value to a client and what the impact on their business was.  Laura  Yeah, I can kick off with a couple of examples that might see what they said quite right. So we were commissioned to do a video strategy for Thomas Sanderson, Thomas Sanderson are very high end window furnishings company. And the video strategy runs right from sort of initially running out of business insights workshop sessions with the key stakeholders to gain insights into their marketing objectives, their goals, SWOTs etc, and understanding of their entire business right through to the final end of the video strategy. And one of the things I added to it, it sounds very basic. But this is just kind of a way in which I think a strategic account managers should be thinking is before we even went into this session, so I created what we call put together a pre flight questionnaire. And in this pre flight questionnaire, are all different information that we would need to know for this project. So it's Who are the people who are responsible? What are your marketing plans? What have you done? Who are your agencies? What trends do you use? What trends Bibles do you use kind of all of that kind of core information that we needed to get. And by gathering all that kind of basic information in like a big spreadsheet, which I could submit way prior to these workshops, it just allowed us and the purpose of me doing that was just get the detail, which allowed us to have so much detail we needed to know. But by knowing that, by thinking ahead, and knowing that we were able to allow us to have the time with those key stakeholders in that meeting, to just purely focus on planning, and getting their inputs into that process, which was, you know, one of the most valuable, they are time precious, we only had four hours, maybe per session. So actually not getting bogged down in some of that detail. It really helps just add value. And I think that's just one of the things that you can be thinking of as a tool, as strategic account managers. What can I do to make this process as streamlined as possible? And to get the most out of both of those sessions?  Jenny  That's really useful because that's repeatable, isn't it? Once you've put the effort into establishing your pre flight questionnaire, and maybe someone listening is thinking, Oh, we don't actually systemize the questions we ask or we don't sort of dig deep enough. And all of that experience of learning because when I'm hearing you both, actually you rattle off the types of questions that you typically ask your clients and it shows how ingrained that kind of behaviour is for you both so  for many people maybe it doesn't come as second nature, but for you, I can see how sort of proficient you are with it. So I think that's a lovely idea and a great little tip for those listening craps to do that, you know, because it also allows you to systemize your onboarding process, doesn't it? Laura  Like it says that yeah, exactly that it really helped with the onboarding, it helped me with a client that had never done a video strategy before. It helped them gather the information all in one sheet. So they knew exactly what they needed. It gave them time to do it. And as I said, it really allowed us to really focus on the core objectives of what their business workshop was with the right people.  Jenny  And what's the downside of not asking the right questions. Laura  If you don't ask the right questions, you want to do that you're not going to get the right brief. The brief the brief won't be right. If you don't ask the right questions at that stage or the right information, your strategy, your recommendations could be completely wrong. Jenny  And time is money, isn't it? Right? Yeah, absolutely. That's right. Love it. Andy, what about for you any examples where you've been able to impact the client's business? Andy  Yeah, I think we worked on a big project last year ahead of Brexit it was for a road haulage company. And they've, it's almost like a once in a lifetime opportunity for them to launch this product that they've been developing to steal them ready for Brexit it was unlike anything else in the market. There was no way it was like a true USP in a very, very competitive, price driven commodity market. So we helped them market a product, which we know is a service, but it's called a product in the industry. And so what we did, we put together a multi channel campaign for them. And they never done marketing like this before. They relied heavily on tele sales and very little on inbound. So we created a multi channel strategy with video at the focus. And so this was during during COVID, it was one of the toughest times to film. And it really kind of stretched us as an agency in terms of reaching this high quality production content. We had like 35 people on set, we had stunt coordinators, we had COVID officers we had everything kind of all put into this piece of high value content that would be the centrepiece of the campaign that was all about utilising that and chopping that up in different ways that we could hit certain target markets who could remarket to them via YouTube, it could reach out to them on LinkedIn. And then that all kind of led to that was a lot of generating awareness. And then we moved people further down the funnel, round the flywheel should I say, into the engagement side of things. So we help them do a webinar, they usually do person to person event face to face events in person. But we help them do a webinar where they had over 1000 signups over 800  new people engaging with them. And then that kind of filtered into really, really high quality leads that they then had the telesales and the team to then convert. So we generated a hell of a lot of leads ahead of what is going to be an intense time for a lot of people. So that's where we added some serious value, because they wouldn't have been able to get to that point in such a tight timeframe, we're talking about five month timeframe, doing zero, all the way up to boom, let's do our biggest ever marketing campaign that we can do. So it was a lot of steep learning curves. And as a client, say they have a graph of pain that kind of goes up like that, and then the bubbles like that, and then another bit of growth comes out. So we've been in the graph of pain portion of that. But we really, really knocked out some incredible content, some incredible results, so that for them to trust us with their most important opportunity in the industry that they've ever come across. And all of them have been in it for a long time, it was quite something significant about the pressure. But it was really, really great to have the opportunity to grab it and run with it, which we did as a team. It took a hell of a lot of us to to deliver those results.  Jenny  A few things you've said, I love what you said one of the things is a bit of a reminder about repurposing content and assets you've already got. I know that's something you particularly do really, really well, particularly in the you know, the COVID situation, because a lot of our clients have either been tightening their belt suddenly. But also like working with them with the whole strategy in mind. And then getting them results in such a short period of time. I mean, that shows a huge amount of agility on your part to have pulled that out of the bag and get that all done and get the results within that timeframe.  Andy  I would you say yeah, it were quite nimble, like throughout the process. One thing that I do want to say is that Skeleton had worked with that client for seven years prior to that. So there was a lot of trust that had been built up. And it was an intense collaboration with the client as well, the client was fully dedicated to this opportunity, as well. So there was a lot of back and forth a lot of continued communication. So when I talked about it being a team effort it was about with the client as well. And I think that's something that helps drive results is by setting those common goals at the beginning what you're trying to achieve, and then working to it and all committing to making it a success and that that's what both was and the client did.  Jenny  I love that you brought that up as well actually because you're getting buy in, aren't you you need to get all the stakeholders involved that are going to make that decision. Bring them on that journey with you. And obviously you had built up the trust over seven years. So they were more likely to say okay, we trust you because you've done good work for us in the past. But I still think that's that's really good work. Extending that a little bit, why do you think clients stay with you for the long term? I mean, seven years is a long time for a client to stay with you. What do you think is the secret? Andy   I think in terms of the way we work with people goes back to what we've seen before. We've got that challenger mentality, we're not just there just to execute what they say, what we do is right at the beginning, we try and learn as much about the business as possible so that we can kind of help them grow, help them develop. And yeah, I think it's content that works, and then show them the results and the return on investment of that as well. And it almost just becomes, like natural, it's like why wouldn't we do that, because we know we've got previous track record of delivering XYZ. So let's do that for this and see how that works. And I think I think that's just just just a big part of it just so happens a lot with agencies like we have done a great bit of work, here you go, whatever it is, that's it, and then we'll kind of sit down and think, oh, that's really, really great. But that's, to me as an account manager that's almost like, that's the end of the beginning. The next part is seeing how that works, how we can improve what you've worked on, but also how you can build on the future. And that's continual, it's not linear. And I think if you've got that kind of mentality, it does keep clients on board, because why wouldn't they? Because you're helping them grow their business. So I think that's probably the reason why people would stick with us and do stay with us.  Jenny  Great. And I would agree, I mean, one of the things you both do really, really well is to talk about your case studies in the context of always including business outcomes that you've achieved. And that's a really good point, Andy about, you know, the more outcomes you achieve for the client, the more results you've achieve, it's perpetuating, isn't it, you can reflect on how much they've done with you. And then, you know, build on that with further ideas using your trends analysis and your insight. So that's really the secret to momentum in terms of growing the account, isn't it? Laura, you were just going to say something. Laura  Just building on what Andy said, Really, I just think that the reason, one of the reasons they stay with us is because, you know, we listen. And when we're not scared to challenge that brief, we really care. And we deliver, we always deliver and we don't just sell, we are trusted if not strategic advisors to our clients, it is this kind of perpetual cycle is not linear. We're not just order takers. That isn't how we like to work with our clients. And we like creating beautiful work that takes their audience on a journey, and ultimately drives those results. And we keep thinking of ideas and new ideas how we can build on that, as you've mentioned, in the sort of current climate and how we can maximise their budgets by repurposing existing footage so that they still got some content that they can still be communicating with their audience for but within the new budget that they're now working with. So it's always kind of being agile, and always listening to what they're doing.  Jenny  Lovely, Andy, what were you going to say? Andy  I'd say the word you used then, momentum, I think that is absolutely vital when working with clients to keep that wheel spinning, keep feeding them ideas, keep working with them, they're not gonna say yes to every single one. But you still have given them ideas, you still adding value in some other way, getting them thinking, I think, maintaining that it should be absolutely priority, once you've work that hard to get it up to speed, maintaining that momentum. And another big word to set alongside that would be consistency. So be consistent with your clients keep that momentum going. And that will drive results.  Jenny  It's so true, because what's the worst that can happen? They say, Well, no, that idea particularly under you know, it's not the right time for us, or, you know, that doesn't particularly align with what we've had planned for this year, you know, but they're left with the perception of, wow, these guys are consistently bringing me new thoughts, new ideas based on their understanding of what's changing in the market. Because let's face it, our clients are very kind of, they go very deep in their products, don't they and their business. But we go wide and deep in our industry, and what's changing. So I think that's really valuable. Do you have any kind of forums or situations meetings, that you have those kind of more strategic discussions on a more regular basis? Or do you find that these are ad hoc ideas that you bring to them on a regular basis? Laura  They can be for me a combination of both. So we have regular catch up meetings with them, I would say about sort of top clients. And then those catch up sessions, they are more kind of strategic in terms of where they are in terms of business sharing quarterly plans. And we can get out of these sessions, we then sort of come up with different ideas and suggestions. Or it's just ad hoc, because we're looking at latest trends for different customer bases. So I've got a customer that's in beauty, I've got a customer that's in interiors. So it's looking at their different trends and spotting different things I literally before just before this call, I've just spotted something I've just sent to a client that I thought was amazing but is on brief, you know, really, really interesting for the business. I think it's, for me, I think it's a combination of both dependent clients really.  Jenny  That's a great tip as well, Laura, sort of keeping abreast of what's changing so that the news is coming to you on a regular basis. And then you're sharing it with your client and providing your point of view. You know, because I understand your business because I understand where we are in the relationship. This is why I believe that this is particularly relevant for you. And perhaps this is the action we need to take. So I know that you both do that on a regular basis. So again, it's adding huge amount of value. Andy was there anything else that you were going to add there?  Andy  No, I very much the same as Laura sometimes you have structured meetings, and especially when you're doing like onboarding a client, you'll have every kind of structured meeting to them break down ideas and then future kind of pathways that you can take with them. But I really, really love the organic approach, one thing that I do like to do is make sure I've got connected with people on LinkedIn everyone you work with anytime you've emailed someone that is potential work with them, add them on LinkedIn, because I think it's a really, really easy way to share ideas. As you're scrolling through LinkedIn, sometimes you see something that information about their industry think, oh, I don't know whether you've seen this. But I think this is actually quite cool and quite relevant to what we're working on or, or there's this new bit of software that can measure this I don't know if that might be useful for you. And so by having that, so there's a lot of stuff that happens organically doesn't have to be some gigantic presentation that you're working on to show your ideas. I'll give an example actually I worked with a project management company IT project management company, and their biggest competitor did this amazing Christmas video, they spent mega mega bucks on it, and it was great. I said, Oh, this is really, really great. Maybe we can do it next Christmas type of thing like joking around. But then after I'd watched that I was getting hit with remarketing videos on YouTube. And I was like, taking screenshots of it and just say, they're chunking this video to hit me with because I think I'm interested in because I've been researching. That's what we should be doing. Once we get to the end of the video project we're working on, we should be doing that. And it can just be those things, you don't have to come with a massive deck to pitch my ideas and just overwhelm them I think, the organic, it shows that you're you're thinking about them. And I think I think that's a key thing that consistency links back to that consistency that I was on about. Jenny  You've both shared so much value and tips you know, for people listening, I think you're just like, bam, bam, do this do that. It's really useful. Thank you. I was gonna ask you like, you're obviously, you know, advanced in your career that you've both done an awful lot. Lots of exposure to different types of businesses, different types of role, you're very senior, what do you wish you'd learnt earlier in your career that you think would have been kind of really useful?  Laura  What do I wish I'd learned earlier, I wish that I had learned not to be afraid of the word strategy. I think early on in your career, the word strategy, particularly if you come from a full service or agency background, you always associate with an actual strategist, actually being strategic is just a different way of thinking. And I think that's something could certainly have recently I have I've really learned that, actually not to be scared of that word strategy. It's just a different mindset. It's just a way of breaking down information. And early on in the career, don't be afraid to ask questions. They're your clients who are just there to get the right information out of them. Be yourself. And the brief for me is key. The devil is always in the detail. If you don't challenge that brief, if you don't answer those questions as we've already said, you know, the output will never be on brief, which is going to cost more money and more time and frustration for both parties.  Jenny  Do you know what I bet there are loads of people listening to this thinking, whew, about that strategy, because I think a lot of people do get bogged down with that to say, Oh, it's like, this is someone strategic? And I'm not. And actually we all are, it's just a different way of thinking exactly, as you said. So don't be afraid of it. So I love that really good. And asking great questions. Again, you know, you don't have to have all the answers in front of your client. In fact, don't let that hold you back. Just simply turning the conversation back to the clients, say tell me a bit more about that. Give me a bit more detail, or can you share a bit of background that allows them to then give you more context? And then you can sort of, you know, don't feel like you've got to have all the answers. I think you both kind of this has come through in this chat. You know, listen and ask questions, I think is fundamentally, what an account manager really should be doing all the time. Andy, what about you? What would you have said that you wish you'd known a lot earlier?  Andy  So I would say the same as Laura, to be honest, a lot of it, there's no stupid questions, there's a lot of jargon and acronyms out there, just don't be afraid to ask what they are. Because if you think it means one thing, it could potentially mean another. So I'd always get those clarifications from people because it is very, very broad, when looking at those types of things. And as Laura said, Be yourself, I think people do love it. It's a people, person to personal business. So on that. And then also, I would say, obviously, no one's perfect. And we do make mistakes, I think it's very important to own your mistakes as well. Don't ever try and cover them up or anything like that, whether it's internal or external, own your mistakes, because there are people, if you're just starting out, there will be people more seeing you can help you. And I think clients do appreciate it. If you have  made a mistake to put your hand up and say, Look, I made this mistake, this is what we're gonna do about it and go to them with a solution. It adds value through mistake. Strangely, you don't go out making them intentionally. But I think owning the mistakes is a big important one.  Jenny  And actually, that's really brilliant point as well. Like if there is a mistake, or if there is a problem. The way you handle that problem really can bond you with the client. It can make the client see you even more valuable can't it, how you conduct yourself, how you tackle it, how you speak to the client, how you hold yourself, and actually honesty. Absolutely 100% agree, Andy because you just tell a little fib about anything at any point and your credibility is just gone through the floor. Continuing this thing for both of you to share with me your biggest challenges and how you've overcome them because I think. Again, anyone listening to this maybe on their account management career journey? Either they're gonna come up against the challenge, or they might have experienced the challenge before. So, from your perspective, what are some of the challenges you've had?  Laura  So some of the challenges that I get with clients are, the clients don't like to be challenged on their brief. And that is part of our job to challenge on the brief. Or we have a situation where we've gone past the briefing stage and we're sort of putting together creative options, and the almost one, a hybrid option, kind of mixing too many messages together so that the end result is just mixing, confused, confusing, and doesn't really have a clear creative thread or an idea running through it. For me overcoming those challenges, really, it's to stop and pause, stop, pause and call a meeting, get all the key stakeholders in the meeting, the creative team, if necessary, to clearly explain, from our eyes, our expertise, the rationale for why we're making these decisions. So why we're making these recommendations. And what options are there to move forward. We are experts in the field. They're experts in their business. And it's about the two parties coming together and acting as a team, ultimately, to get the best outcome. And often in that situation, you'll use anecdotes or examples of where this happened for other clients, and you can easily show the other work and show how that the different impacts of the results. That's hard just to bring it to life. And then from that you get there, you can often sometimes have a bit of resistance between an agency and the client. And we're doing it for the good of the job. And we are experts. And that's why you're using us. So just calling that meeting, having a really open forum to talk like that, I find often just comes out with a really good result. I've had it on a project recently. And it you know, it was great. There was no problem. There was absolutely no problem after that meeting. We were all aligned.  Jenny  I love that. I mean, a realignment meeting is brilliant. And presumably the client was open to having a realignment meeting. I think some people call it mid project review meetings. You know, typically, we always do this just to make sure we're all on track all on the same page. But that would make total sense to me to do that. Yeah. So if they don't like being challenged on the brief, are there any other ways that you can shift that perception? Because maybe some clients, you know, see us in that order, take a bucket? And say no, just do it, just get on with it? How can you deal with that situation?  Laura  Those clients can be difficult. So we do have clients that I would say they don't want to work closely with us this is as a commodity. And they want to do some more on a transactional basis. And kind of no matter what advice we kind of want to offer them. It's very frustrating when they just want to see us as order takers. And ultimately that's not how we want to work for clients. And it really is on that stage by challenging the brief, it really is about talking to him about the best outcome. And these are the options that we have for you. We could do it this way. Or we could do it this way. And this is the reason why we don't have this information, or we don't have this information. This isn't right, this is what we're going to end up with. So what we get quite often, when you challenge on a brief is many account managers will find this is that the clients will want to say far too much in one piece of communication. And that's not just a video that goes across absolutely everything. And that's one of the things that we always challenging is actually what are we saying? And who are we talking to. And we really need to dilute this message right down. And sometimes when you spell that out, in a brief and you can turn it flip into something completely different. And you give them an example. They then usually say, oh, okay, I see what you mean. Now, this message is confusing. I don't know what you're trying to tell me. Or you can but you can bring up a TV advert you can bring up anything, you can bring up in a really bad example, as a reference to say, this is why we're challenging you. Because ultimately, what we're going to end up with is something that's very confusing that's not a brief that doesn't talk to your audience.  Jenny  Great. So it's kind of giving them an example of, you know, if we carry on down this road, we're gonna end up here, but actually, we need to end up here. And here's why. And this is how it's usually done typically. And I mean, advertising. I mean, I come from an advertising background, it was always drummed into me, it's a one message medium, you know, and you've got to be really clear with that one message. And some people just want to put all of their bullet points and then the other one make the logo bigger, isn't it? Andy, what about you, in terms of challenges? Andy  I kind of definitely echo what Laura said, Sometimes there's like the realignment meeting just to make sure you're on the you're on the right track. Because the amount of times something could get misconstrued in an email like tone obviously doesn't come through. And sometimes you like be sat there thinking, did they mean it like this to the meaning like that, just pick up the phone and call someone or arrange a meeting, just just do it, it's much easier to kind of really understand what someone's saying. So just make time for those conversations when you need to. I think one of the things that's always ever present is the pace of marketing that we mentioned earlier, why adaptability is so important to kind of constantly try and stay ahead of the game. I think that's always going to be a case not something that you just have to live with. And if you don't enjoy that, it'd be quite tough to be that kind of leader. So you generally have to have some desire to be able to do that. But even then it's still very, very kind of challenging. But we internally have forums where we can share great work we've seen we can share great ideas, we can share what other people have been doing. And so I would recommend that if you're part of a team to share that knowledge, and you kind of share the burden of all staying abreast of that. And I think that's something that's been quite powerful for us. And I also think one of the tougher challenges is not having access to the final decision maker, whether you're working with a partner agency, you've not got access to the client, or you're working with one of the mid tier and they're reporting into C suite, that is always a challenge to be able to get what you're trying to say, to the final decision maker through an intermediary. And basically,  you've got to equip that person as best as possible to do that, if you can't secure that direct dialogue. And that's all it is always fall back on, I always push to get that meeting to the final person, because you're the experts, you know, it all you can feel the questions that might be coming out of it. So always, always push for that. But then failing that, just make sure that the person that you deal with is fully equipped, got everything that they need, they feel confident in what you've gone through with them to make sure they've got all the necessary tools, but that one is never gonna go away. And that is just sometimes the way it is, especially if you're fielding pitches from multiple agencies as it can happen. So yeah, that's one that always kind of, you've just got to do your best given the situation.  Laura  Totally agree on that. And it just to build on it, I'd say like, when you have your projects that you're working on, it's kind of if you haven't got access to that stakeholder, and you can't and you fully equip your client, but just ensuring that you have all the key stakeholders involved at the key sign of processes. So each milestone at the point of no return, you know that there's key stakeholder in the business has at least signed that project off, or signed that milestone off. Jenny   I think this is really good. It's a really good topic. And so when you say equip them, do you mean provide your contact with a business case, so that they can then present that easily to the C suite? Andy  Exactly that and depending on what what you want to do whether you want to create a video for them, it can come in different formats, as well as depending on how you want to get that across to them. It could it could be in a PDF, it could be in PowerPoint, Whatever it is, as long as there's something on there that also sells the idea that you're trying to pitch them, but also sells your agency or you as well, I think that's sometimes important, because you're not able to build that rapport with the end decision maker. So making sure that you've got a little bit of something in there, that is personal, either about you or about the company does help a little bit and give you a bit of credibility, but kind of add that in towards the end. But build them the best business case you can. and then you've just got to hope that that's delivered in the way that you would want to deliver it or as close as possible.  Jenny  And Laura, you said, you know, make sure that you have like key meetings, where all the decision makers around the table and all the key stakeholders so that someone doesn't come in the last minute and say, ooh I've got a change. You know, last night, I spoke to my neighbor's daughter, and she said, you know, we might want to do this with the video that happened to you?  Laura  Yeah, now we'd like it blue and green, please. Jenny  And make the logo bigger! What other ways can we make sure that we are reaching the key decision makers, maybe our day to day contact is not a key decision maker. Any other thoughts on that?  Laura  Making sure that we kind of introduction at the beginning of the project really, and making the whoever our client is aware of what the key milestones are. So what the key milestones are, what are the points of No Return, and what implications they will have to the business if that stakeholder isn't included, for instance, cost implications. So if we are going to put together a storyboard and we sign storyboard off, or if we film something, which can be extremely costly, and we're travelling around the world to film it, and someone hasn't got the buy in from the initial concept that's got massive financial implications. And they were the client who will have to sign that off. So it's in their interests, to share it with the key stakeholders, or to at least get the key stakeholders involved in an initial briefing session or an initial meeting, or at least make sure that they are presenting it to them on our behalf. So it's kind of trying to flip it back really, to the client, always. it's in their interest. It's not just in our interest, it's in their interest to make sure that this briefing is going to be right.  Jenny  Great tips here about sort of managing expectations from the beginning. You know, making sure that you have all of these conversations upfront as part of your onboarding process. So lovely tips. Thank you so much. A few sort of tactical questions, what tools do you tend to use in your job, any sort of apps or tools that you think that help your account management process? Laura   We use HubSpot for our CRM tool, which is our main CRM tool that we use. We use Trello boards to manage our products, actions, kind of daily management tools, Jam boards really good, you know, especially at the minute, we're working remotely, just because we can't get into a situation where we're in a boardroom with sticky notes, it's a virtual sticky note board, which is quite cool to use. Jenny  Is that jam board? How do you spell that?  Laura  Jam board and then it's part it's part of Google suite, G Suite and it's really cool. It's really easy. We've used it for a few like brainstorming sessions and stuff, which is it has worked quite well actually. And use it for clients stuff as well. And we use as a business we use Toggl and stuff as a time management tool, but project management tools really Trello, HubSpot, Jam board.  I'm sure Andy's got loads more. Andy  I do though, I do love a good day. I do love a good tool, to be honest, to make our life a little bit easier. I would say HubSpot again, is my absolute favourite that we work with it can track email. So if you're working across an account with all the people, they can see clear communication that you've had, which allows you to burrow further if sharing an account are the things that I do like it has a trackable document you can send to me if your clients are engaging with the content that you're sending them, whether it be PDF or something similar. And it's got tasks in it as well, which I think is really, really vital sometimes to you've got an email, you can set a task to follow up or you can set a task to do this by a certain date. And then you can just go to your task list and just work through them. Because I think one of the hardest things you can do probably I mentioned this earlier, is create structure, as an account manager to give yourself some structure of where you should be spending your time. And HubSpot helps me do that. I think other things that really help you we're starting using Frame.io for feedback. So it's not just about doing great work for our clients is about making ourselves as easy as possible and stress free to work with as possible. Frame IO is one of the tools that we've recently invested in that really helped us do that.  Jenny  And what does that specifically?  Andy  So it's such a, it seems such a little thing. But so what essentially is it's a tool for reviewing video. So you can easily just kind of like click on the video where you want to comment on the timestamp. And then it's also got revision history as well. So you can see what feedback was given on stage one, to then reflect back on that or look at stage to see, see where those changes have been implemented, and then then be able to work that way. And it just gives a very kind of clear idea to the client. So if they're reporting internally, what's happening with the project, you can say, right, we're at stage one, this is where at stage one, these are the changes that was supposed to make and more than ever it is powerful, because it allows that collaboration from wherever you are, it's very rare, someone's going to sit and watch a video in an office and you've got all stakeholders around. So anyone from anywhere, and you can do in different time zones, you can even enough conversations on it. So someone says I want this being read, or they want it read because of XYZ and say, Yeah, okay, we'll make it green. So it's got things like that. And that seems such a small snippet, but it's all part of owning the client, and owning the experiment. So keeping that momentum going. Because I think sometimes it's not just about great quality of work. It's about how easy you are to work with, as well once things get going. So there's that. And then a biggie that I've used a lot, especially with the campaign that I mentioned earlier was Wistia. So Wistia is a video hosting platform. But it's got great analytical tools on it. So you can see where people are dropping off, you can see rewatcher, you can see where people are engaging on call to actions. And it really really does help them to see how well the content's performing. You think people are rewatching this part, do we break that down further create some content around that people will be watching it because they want to know more about it, or they don't fully understand it in that video. So let's expand upon that and create some content for it. And then you measure that. So Wistia and I know other video hosting platforms that do that, but I don't think any quite does it as well as Wistia. So that's a really kind of big tool for me to show that added value that we bring.  Jenny  Very valuable, very valuable. Thank you so much. I'll add a couple more just on from my side Streak is something that I use that integrates with Gmail. So it's like HubSpot, but it does what I want it to do in terms of CRM, Mural, and Miro, you've probably come across them, but for collaboration and you know, everyone doing post it notes, a brainstorming session, some kind of strategy session is often useful. But thank you for sharing. Those are really, really useful. Just two more questions, because I'm conscious of your time, how do you see the account management role evolving in the future? Laura  I think the role would become more strategic for an account manager. We are strategic account managers. And I think within the agency businesses, account managers will be given more remit, more remit more trust and more confidence to get to know their clients better. I think there'll be less of a hierarchy like there has historically been in agencies, and more ownership for the account managers to really get to burrow into those clients and get to know them, get to know them better, and work with them more strategically.  Jenny  Amazing. What about you, Andy?  Andy  Yeah, this same kind of thing, I think, expected to be more integrated into your clients, clients company, the clients team, I think that'll be an expectation. And it's something that we do do now. But now it's slightly out out of the norm. But it will become the expectation, I think that's where it's going to go and it's, it's just going to be all about getting to know absolutely anything and everything you can about that client and about the business and the way the business works not just about their market, but the way the business works, because that makes it so much easier when you're dealing with the more process side of things like sign off, to get everyone on board those types of things. And not only are they producing great content, but you're making yourself as easy as possible to work with. I think that'll be a big part of it. But I think the thing at the moment is no one's to show what that looks like. And I think that's probably a really exciting, exciting prospect because we really don't know what that is. And we're able to kind of help shape that.  Jenny  I agree with you and the point you made, Laura was really key, I think the idea of consultancy being more like a management consultant understanding their business problems, I think it's a huge trend. And, in fact, I was in very, thankfully invited to a roundtable discussion the other day with a group of Client Services directors for BIMA. And that was the one topic that we're talking about this idea of consultancy, because many account managers are having their names changed to consultant. That's the trend that's happening, and being more consultative. So I think you're right, not, you know, goes without saying that you've got the likes of Accenture, Deloitte, PwC, buying creative agencies left, right and centre. So that kind of trend is that that the two are kind of merging? So I absolutely agree, I think that's spot on. Just Finally, any kind of final bits, and you've shared so much value. By the way, I just thank you so much, both of you. Any final advice or tips for someone who perhaps is listening to this and thinking, I love the idea of being more of a strategic account manager, any advice for them? Laura  I would say that advice for them first of all, don't be afraid of that word strategy again. Because it really is about just getting to know your clients a bit a bit more. Ask the questions. Listen, don't be afraid to challenge the brief as we said, immerse yourself in their world. Sign up for top tips you know trick tips and trends and things that are happening, you know, if you've got a client that's in fashion, or you've got a client, this interiors or whatever their business might be SaasTech, immerse yourself in that world, get to know it, so that you can really add some value and share the thoughts have been put into it as well. And enjoy it.  Jenny  Lovely, lovely advice. Thanks, Laura. What about you, Andy? any parting tips?  Andy  Oh, obviously, it's taking your course Jenny? That's the big one.  Jenny  I did not pay you to say that did I?! Andy  No, no. In all seriousness, obviously,  working with you is really, really helped both of us. And it's given us confidence. It's given us structure. And it's given us some great tools that we can build on, because we already had a lot of good skills. So it was good, knowing A we've got those skills, and we're good at it. That's a confidence part. And it's like, right, where do you take this next. And I think if you're looking at the bigger picture, I think like learn from the leaders in the industry, I guess, we'll learn from that, adapt your approach, be prepared to fail, because not everything you try is going to work. But then you make sure you're okay with thatm reflecting you go again. And I think, again, just constantly just wanting to learn consume as much information and don't be afraid to try something that might be a little bit different, a little bit alien. But once you've done it a few times, it very much becomes a part of who you are. So I think looking at people who are out there doing it right and who have been doing it right for a number of years, I think is a great way to kind of look up to those people and and try and emulate some of the stuff that they do that really works.  Jenny  Fantastic. Thank you so much, Andy. And I really appreciate the feedback. I think you two are an absolute pleasure to work with, like, absolutely. You know, you had it all. But working together. I think I just saw that kind of enhanced kind of level of consultancy. But if someone is really kind of enjoyed this chat and want to get hold of you, who particularly do you work with client wise, who might be listening and thinking, I really love the sound of utilising video in such a strategic way for my business. Laura   In terms of clients that we like to work with, we like to work with all clients, so from startup companies, to SMEs to global organisations, who have got, who've got a story to tell what we do, we make videos, it's the art of storytelling. And it's the art of storytelling mixed with whatever there's going to be live action animation, what that looks like, we are telling a story that is ultimately going to make somebody an audience do something. And from that doing that something there's going to be a result. And whether you're in any of those organisations that I've just mentioned in you're in B2B or B2C? You know, really, we'd love to work with you, we'd love to show you what we can do.  Jenny  Brilliant, and how can people reach you? What's the best way?  Laura  The best way to reach us is a fire our Well, our website, really and our details on the website, or directly via email addresses and mine is laura.cohen?skeletonproductions.com. Jenny  And is the website skeletonproductions.com?  Laura  The website is skeleton productions.com. And all our contact details are on there as are our faces.  Jenny  You're right, your lovely faces. Well, thank you both so much, honestly, that was really, really brilliant. And I think so many people would have got so much value. So many ideas coming through. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.  Laura  No problem. Thank you very much for having us. And thank you very much your course you really have added so much, so much to us. And yeah, I think both Andy and I have really benefited benefited from the course so thank you.  Jenny  It's a pleasure. I hope you came away with lots of tools and ideas and tips that you can take away from this episode and apply right now in your role. Just a reminder that on the 15th of April, I'm going to be running my next Account Accelerator programme. This is a three month training and coaching programme. There are weekly calls, and I take you through a step by step programme to take your agency from unpredictable project revenue to more predictable account growth. So by the end of 90 days, you come away with a client centric plan to increase your revenue from your existing accounts. So if you'd like to join me, please get hold of me on LinkedIn, Jenny Plant, or drop me an email. It's Jenny@accountmanagement skills.com. I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Transcript:Transcript:Jenny  So I'm thrilled today to welcome Nadine. Nadine is a friend of mine. And she also happens to be an expert in leadership skills, and also managing difficult conversations. And I first met Nadine, a few years ago now, where we were in a masterclass together. And I was really, really impressed by first of all her public profile, how much she gives of herself online and how much value she provides. And she's a podcaster herself. She's got a very, very high quality programme, all about managing difficult conversations. And she's written white papers, and she's got a very impressive background. And I thought, who else would I invite on my programme today? Because I think she can provide tonnes of value to us, particularly around leadership and also managing difficult conversations. So Nadine, welcome.Nadine   Hello. Hello, Jenny. And well, thank you so much for this amazing introduction. I feel like saying okay, the end now. I've done everything you said, thank you so much for that.Jenny  You're welcome. But um, I know I've left loads of gaps. So just as to kick us off. Would you mind spending a few minutes just talking about your background? And also, now, who you help.Nadine   Who am I helping? And who am I? Okay, well, the first thing to say probably, you'll understand, and you'll hear through my terrible accent.  I'm French, but I am here in the UK. And very proud to be in the UK actually, I've got my settled status. And so no matter what Brexit is decided for me, I will stay in the UK. And so I've been in the UK since 1989. I have done all my career in the UK in education, about 25 years in education. I did two headships, secondary. And I have four children. And at the moment, when I was thinking about, oh, how should I introduce myself, when Jenny's going to ask me that question. I sort of, you know, usually I would say, Well, I'm an executive and leadership coach, and I'm a workplace mediator, and, but at the moment, I feel that I've got different hats that I am wearing at the same time. I have four children, three of them are in the world of work, and one of them is still at uni, shes at Kings, in her final year. So at the moment, I am a mother. And every day, my children are contacting me since COVID. And I'm a wife of an amazing person he is writing on French cinema. He's a professor, and I'm a I'm a daughter, my mum is in France, and suddenly I've not been able to see her. And so I'm having to juggle that. And I have my own company. So I'm a businesswoman. And I've had my own company for the past five years now. I left my headship in 2016 so I'll start my fifth year, and I'm an executive and leadership coach. I'm a workplace mediator. I'm an a learning designer, because I do a lot of training, leadership training. And I have a podcast, you mentioned it, leading to coaching change. And I do LinkedIn live every Thursday, at four o'clock GMT. And when I was speaking to a client this week, she said to me, so when do you have all the time to do that, and to work full time as well. And I think that when you have passion, you can do it all. And because you do it every day, it's and because you have consistency, it's easy to do. And you get better at it as well, because habits, so I'm getting better at, you know, editing my podcasts or preparing my LinkedIn live. And so so yeah, so it's, um, you know, it's, it's, it's me, really.Jenny   you could certainly see the passion that comes through with everything you do online. I mean, when you do those LinkedIn lives, which I think are super valuable, by the way, and anyone that's listening, I would really recommend tuning in, because I learned so much, but you can you can see the energy coming from you, Nadine, it just speaks volumes that actually it's very, very attractive.  I'm also glad that you introduced yourself in that in that way in, you know, giving all the context of how many hats you wear, because particularly right now, many of us, you know we're recording this in January, and many people that we know are locked down, and we're kind of fed up and you know, we've got a lot of the pressures, some people are managing small children having to homeschool others are managing family members. And, you know, if you're not ill, it's the boredom and there's lots of different so thank you for introducing yourself in such a humanist way, I really enjoyed that. I think the one thing that with people listening into this what I, what I was thinking before when I was preparing these questions is because you are an expert in leadership skills, I'd love you to sort of talk talk to us a little bit about that, because you've met so many very, very senior leaders and you've worked so closely with them. What for you, in your experience makes a really great leaders?Nadine   Ok, I was reflecting on that, actually. And I was thinking about the people I worked with when I was working in education wise to work in education, but in in a different way. And I've had the privilege to work with two amazing heads that and they have totally shaped who I am today. So the first one was called Derek Wise. He was the head teacher at Cramlington, it's now Cramlington Learning Village in Northumberland. And the reason why I think he's, he is not alive anymore. He died a couple of years ago. But he was an amazing head. And he was amazing, because he had a very clear vision, very clear vision. And he had a very clear strategic plan. But most importantly, he had the right people in the right seat. So we always go back to Jim Collins, you know, 'from good to great'. And he knew exactly where to put people in which position in which roles in the school, he was extremely consistent with his communication. So his communication was clear, consistent. And we all knew our roles. And there was no debate around that. And we all knew what to achieve. And the school got a third Ofsted Oustanding. And he came in and he said, Well, you know, we've we've got the Outstanding for a third time, and he cried. And, and, and it felt very moving. Because actually, we'd all built that together, there was a real spirit of we were all in it together kind of, you know, approach. And it was a risk taker, don't take me wrong, even if there was a strategic plan, you would take calculated risks. And the best gift he did, he did, he had a research group. And I was part of it. So every Thursday, I would stay until about six o'clock at school. And we would talk between four and six, we would talk about research and education and what was working best around, you know, around the world in terms of education, in terms of learning and in terms of leadership. And at one point, he said, you know, if any of you want to go and study something specific around the world, just write a business proposal, and give it to me. So I thought, wow, you know, there's lots of things I'm interested in. But I had four children. And at that point, my youngest one was a baby. So I thought, well, it's going to be a bit difficult for me to travel. But you know, I just took my chance. And I'd always been interested in gifted and talented children. And it was actually it was quite a passion for me, probably because when I was at school when I was young, I jumped a year group. And so I was always fascinated as to you know, what, why is it that some children learn quicker than others and are more curious. And so I wrote a proposal, and I gave it to him thinking there is no way he is going to send me to Australia and New Zealand for four weeks during term time. So I had done my cost and everything. You know, he could not ask me any questions. I had thought of every possible question. But it had to be on two A4 pages. And then one morning, he would always do that he would have his hand in his pocket and look through his windows in his office. And he called me in and I said, Well, it's probably to tell me that, you know, no, thank you, but no thanks. And he said to me, Well, you'd better pack up. And I will never forget that. And so off I went, so my parents flew to the UK to look after my children. And off I went and my husband could could travel with me because he's an academic. So he was able to do his research as well in Australia and in New Zealand. So off we went to Australia and New Zealand, and I toured many schools to look at best practice in terms of leadership and gifted and talented children. I mean, saw some amazing practice, met some amazing people. One of them was called Barbara Prashnig. She did a lot of work on learning style analysis and teaching style analysis and that's made me reflect quite a lot. And, you know, he totally shaped who I became then as a head myself and he died when I took up my first headship. He died two days before we were meant to have lunch, but he died of an illness. But I still have his email congratulating me to say that he was very proud. And I did say to him, you know, I am where I am, because you made me who I am. So that's, that's the one guy. And the other guy was another head when I was living in Sheffield, and his name is David Conway. And I was the deputy head there. And he was the head teacher, he had a very interesting background is he was an ex military guy. So very process and systems driven, but also very flexible. And me at that point in my career, I was quite not stubborn, but I wanted to go one way, you know, I always said, well, A will take me there. So it will be B and he taught me a good lesson. He said to me, you can get there taking different routes. It doesn't matter which one you take, you know, and we had some really big discussions on this one, because I know I can be I could be quite stubborn. And I wanted to do it my own way at that point. But actually, he he kind of proved to me in a very gentle way that a, it's okay to choose a different road, at some point on the journey, that providing you get to where you want to be, it's okay to yeah, to take a different road. And that stayed with me forever. Because that was about the strategy. And he was absolutely right. And the school did very well. And he's an amazing guy, I have to say he's retired now. But he's amazing. I hope he's listening, I will tell him to listen, because you know, credit to him. And I have used what he taught me when I was ahead. And, and I've also used it as a business woman. And for example, if I really want to work with a client, I will try different way to get to work with that client. So yeah, so that's how I am inspired by, by people.Jenny There's loads of lessons in there. Those two stories. I love it. Because I think everyone, I was listening intently. And I just thought there's so many kind of takeaways there. The people that maybe are in leadership positions themselves. So going back to this story about Derek, which I actually had a tear in my eye at the end. You said that he he had a clear vision, he had a clear strategy. And he chose the right people. And I think, tell me a bit more about choosing the right people. How do you make sure that you choose the right people for your team?Nadine  That's a very good question. And I think it's not always about it's not about qualification, always. And it's not always about experience. And sometimes it can be about intuition. Let me share something with you. I was in my first headship and the school that I had taken over me immediately needed to change. And I was appointing a number of staff, particularly in English, maths and science. And I needed some heads of department. And we  interviewed a number of candidates on that day, and fairly, fairly early on in their career types of candidates. And great, and I just felt that they were the right people to be put in a leadership position. So I had three people where I thought, you know, my little voice inside me standing, it's telling me to offer them the post of head of department, yet they're only NQT, so they've just finished university. They've got no experience, really, of working, you know, full time, no experience of leading a team, but they've just got that tremendous potential. So I appointed them. And I remember my colleagues who were head teachers, and you know, in the region in Hampshire, they said to me, have you gone mad to appoint people with no experience? And I said, No, I appointed them on their potential. And I know that they're amazing. They just got to be given the opportunity to be amazing. And they will shine and I will make them shine. You know, radiance is one of my values very strong, right. So here we were. They were amazing, they delivered. They were totally I think when I got them that they were appointed, and then they were appointed as head of department, I think they have to sit down here. They said, well, we didn't come for that. But actually they were, they were amazing, they're delivered. And, and they took the, to each of them to their own department and their own people to a really nice place in terms of learning and in terms of outcomes in terms of success for the children. And so, so to me, that's, that's how we can we can appoint people. Yeah, I mean, you know, qualifications and experience, is nice, but he's more than that. And, and I've often reflected recently, on your intuition, how do you use your intuition when you know, something's right, but on paper, it doesn't quite look like that, right? Because you have the criteria. And, but there's more to that. And if you feel at times that actually, you know, those people have tremendous potential. And you have to think, you know, the future of the organisation, what they can bring, and how you can shape them and there is all, leadership succession, because you yourself will not be there forever. So when you make an appointment, you have to think, and you have to think about your risk assessment as well, you know, so if this one isn't, isn't staying, who will be in the in his place, and you know, it's a bit like the domino effect. And I was very keen to put that in place. Very, very early on in a school, and I think I think history has proven that I was right to do that. And I'm very proud. I mean, they're, they're still there. And they're, they're amazing, absolutely amazing people.Jenny   I'm really fascinated by this use of intuition. And but part of me thinks in my mind, was it was there a little bit of a factor of Nadine had been working in schools for a number of years, I've met other head teachers, I have a good friend, that's a head teacher, actually. And he seems to have this knack of being able to identify very quickly, what kind of character you're dealing with. And I just thought is it because the exposure to so many people and throughout their lives, you know, this when you're seeing so many people go through their kind of development? Is that why you hone your intuition, and therefore you get to the headship, and you kind of already know, by meeting someone quite quickly, do you think there's a factor there?Nadine   I think it is, but but also, I think it would be fair to say that sometimes you can make mistakes, right? And I have made mistakes, I mean, you know, there might have been one or two appointments where I saw actually, you know, maybe hear it, the person didn't quite deliver for a number of reasons. But I think generally speaking, by, you know, but by having an experience of working with people of knowing what you want, and on discovering what people can bring to the table, and, but also always looking at their potential, because there is the now, and there is the constant, evolving situation of what you will need in the future. So they may have a skill that you don't need now, but actually, you know, because of the strategy plan, you know, that in a few years time, you may need that. And actually, because now we live in a world where what we thought would be five years time is probably now or never, you know, in some instances, the plan hasn't worked, then, you know, some of us have discovered talents that perhaps we didn't know we had. And, and same with the people that you appoint, you know, when you tell them that you've noticed that they've got a particular talent, sometimes they don't know themselves that they have, it's just you, you've noticed that because you've asked them certain questions, you know, they might have done a task as part of the interview, and you're cross referencing everything and triangulating everything. And then it's like drawing a picture, you know, you you get, you get a clear picture of what the person is about. And I've used psychometric tests as well in the past. And I think we've got to be careful with those. I did a LinkedIn post on that, actually. And there were quite a lot of people feeding back saying, you've got to be careful with it. And I agree, actually, because because this is a snapshot at a moment in time, it doesn't mean that you will always be like that. But for me, it was just a little hint of what was possible at a specific time. And did it make a big, did it have a huge impact in my decision, you know, no, but I I took it into consideration as well. So it's about the person and it's about how the person is how the person is interacting. And you know, I think when you mix people you know, like you organise coffee time when you've got an you know, and you call different people to talk and, and you observe people and that's quite fascinating as well. So, I think it's a mixture that is, that is such that you know that that person is probably the best one?Jenny   You said something as well, which I thought again, was very telling is you kept saying, you know, making them shine, you know, helping them, empowering them. And it kind of drew me back to the story you said with Derek, when he called his leadership team together and said, You know, I'm prepared to invest in you, I trust you, I'm, I'm gonna back you if you want to go out and bring something back, which I think was a super smart move, you know, because ultimately, he was going to benefit from those learnings. But he was taking a gamble and also look at look at the the, the effect that's have had, it's almost like you've got more loyalty towards him, you've got more trust, and bonding. So do you think that that's a factor in leadership qualities? Do you see that successful leaders empower, you know, shine the light on and provide that kind of environment?Nadine   I think it's important, I think it's a balance, isn't it, because you, you, you still have to lead and particularly now, you know, in a time where we are, I mean, employees, they want to see their leader, you know, navigating that crisis, so they want to see somebody who is leading, but you're the one to empower your staff, because if you end up micromanaging things, then you're becoming operational yourself, you know, so you need to be in the helicopter, and keeping that view. And if you've put people in the right place, then there is no need to micromanage you know, people can be in power, and, and can deliver. Now, one of the things that I love doing was my one to one meeting with my staff, I just loved that, and I would not miss them. And, and I remember  my senior leadership team telling me, you know, doing the one to one meeting with us kind of worse than Ofsted coming in, because of because of the questions that I that they would ask and, and they will not always question about, you know, the performance. So, but I remember asking questions. So you know, we've got the values for the school. So how are you demonstrating the values every day into your daily job, right? I used to be same as you and I, Jenny, we have values for business. I mean, my values they, they drive my business, you know, I said, I like I like radiance. I mean, radiance is important for me, I like to make people shine, you've been a guest on my podcast, I hope to invite you to my LinkedIn live. And it's important for me to where there is talent to make people shine. And you're the expert in your field, Jenny, I'm not at all I mean, you know, I am, I am watching you, I could never do what you're doing. You're very, very unique, very expert in it. And I think it's nice to recognise people's talent, and to put them on stage and to make them shine. And to applaud, you know, and to say, Well, good for you, because you work very hard. So you deserve to be very successful as you are Jenny. And so that's kind of how I see things.Jenny   And going back to this tip, you've given some sort of such good tips. I think if leaders are taking note of these different things, you mentioned, how important one to ones are. And I believe that they are to, you know, do you have any practical guidance for a leader that perhaps is thinking? Or how often should I be having those one to ones, you know, what should be the nature of the one to ones? How far to the one to ones extend beyond my immediate sort of direct reports? Have you got any thoughts?Nadine   I could talk to you for hours on one to one.  Well, I would say that, I think it depends on the organisation and on the people that you're line managing. I mean, I was seeing my SLT, you know, every week, but that was the context of, you know, when I was working with the clients that I am working with, because they are leaders, they are managing teams, and they tend to have one to one meeting once a month, I think my advice would be, put them in the calendar and make sure that they happen. There should be no excuse, you know, that should never be cancelled. And it's very easy to cancel them, right, because things are happening. So you think, well, I don't need to meet John, you know, he'll be alright. He'll be plodding on. But actually, everybody needs a one to one on a regular basis, to just you know, check what's been you know, what's been achieved and celebrate that and the support that you can you can offer as well, the perspective that you can offer. And I mean, for me, it's all about the conversation. With your team, because it's it's all very well saying, Well, you know, they're all in their role. So everybody is in the right seat. Well, that's okay, up to a point, because life is testing, you know, challenging. And people need support at some point, we all need support at some point, right. But we also need praise. I think that's very important. And it's very difficult at the moment to praise people, because you're on Zoom, you know, is 50 people. And so I think having the one to one and being able to pinpoint where people have done extremely well, and to explain to them, actually, it's not only saying, you know, well done, okay, it's explaining the why, why is it the well done? It's also explaining, okay, so how can we move that further? What can I do to help you? And I think all of that is really important. It's also easy for people sometimes to, to talk and say, yeah, I'm on course, with that, you know, it's fine, I've taken care of that. And, but you, you do want to see, you do want to know, because you have to triangulate and make sure that actually your plan has been delivered, right? The plan of the organisation needs to be delivered. It's not that people don't trust people, just it's nice to see things. I was talking to one of my clients recently, and she said to me, I don't doubt what my team is doing. But I quite like to see what they're doing, you know, in their one to a meeting, is that bad? Nadine, does that make me a very operational leader? And I said, No, I think there is nothing wrong with, you know, asking, so what does it look like? You mean, show me, you know, and everybody can bring something to the table. So you can add a little, you know, observation or perspective. And so I think I think those one to one are very, very precious. And they are difficult things at the moment, Jenny, because, you know, I mean, we're now a year into into COVID. And, and I'm coming to the difficult conversations now. Right. And in the first part of COVID, people would would hesitate at having kind of what they called difficult conversations. So where wedisagree on one thing, right? People would, would not speak really about the performance, because it's quite hard to tell somebody that you're not quite happy with the performance. Well, a year into COVID, you have to have those discussions now. And some of my clients have been really struggling, because they said to me, you know, face to face is bad enough, having having those conversations. Now I'm having to do that on Zoom. You know, my colleague is crying. Had she been in my office, I would have known what to do I'm on Zoom. I know that in 10 minutes, I've got a next meeting starting. So I think I think now we're having to navigate even more how to handle those conversations so that we can have them right, we need to have them. And they don't have to be difficult. We make them difficult because of our perception, our mindset. They don't have to be difficult, but they do need to happen. And for the sake of people as well, because, you know, there are many people out there who who need the support. I mean, people are exhausted, right, we're certainly back in January, you've probably have heard, I've heard, you know, my clients are saying, I'm exhausted. And it's week three, and I've got a year in front of me. And I'm not allowed to take holidays until May, and I don't know how I'm going to survive. So we're talking a lot about resilience. I'm doing a LinkedIn live on that this weekend, again. So it's about how you can you can help people have the conversation and how you can, how they can learn to use their strengths more, because we all have strengths, right? But it's just knowing what they are when.Jenny   If someone's listening to this thinking, Oh, my goodness, oh, my goodness, she's she's talking to me because I have got to have a difficult conversation. And perhaps they're thinking, I've been avoiding it just as she said, You know, it's it's something that I don't want to have, and it's awkward on Zoom. Any you said mindset you said using your strengths, any other guidance or tips that you could provide to someone who either to prepare or actually have the conversation?Nadine   Well, I think the first thing is, the first thing is to prepare that conversation and particularly when it's when it's a difficult conversation and it can be a difficult conversation around what, around relationships with people because even on zoom, you know it's quite tricky at times. And personality clashes yeah, can be about performance at the moment. There are a lot of things companies who are doing their, their kind of closing their performance review. It can be  about that. And it can also be Jenny about grief and loss. Because at the moment, there are many companies who have gone through a period of change. And people have gone, right people have taken early retirement, they've gone to other companies, you know, some senior experts have left the companies, there is a vacant seat. And for those who are staying, actually, this is quite hard. So there is a sense of grief and loss. So that's a difficult conversation when you, you know, when you're the new plus two, and you come in, right with all of your ideas, and but you have people who are suffering from from a loss, because actually, they liked their previous plus two, and they don't know you. And so that's another kind of difficult conversation. And there is also the difficult conversation with yourself, as you know, right? And can I can I, can I have that difficult conversation? Or am I starting to doubt myself? And you go, No, no, come on, you can do that. Right? You can do that. So how do you do go about it? So yeah, preparing the conversation, you have to prepare the conversation, there are specific ways in which you can prepare them. Absolutely. But the thing is, don't over prepare, because sometimes people don't respond in the way that you had anticipating. anticipated. So so you have to prepare to an extent, but most importantly, what is it that you want to get out of the conversation? You know, it's a bit like you go to a supermarket, and you think, Okay, so what am I going to put in my trolley? And how much do I want to spend? Right? Well, it is a little bit like that. Because you have to measure that you're going to be doing it online. So it's quite different. You don't have people on a face to face, you're going to have to make sure that you read them properly, you know, you're going to have to think about the language that you're using and what kind of stakeholder it is. The questions that you're going to be asking, and, you know, how do you how do you have that conversation where people can talk to you in a safe environment? So how do you how do you create that safe environment so that people can open up and say, yeah, you know, I'm sorry, but I know I've not met my targets and I've got four kids, I've got to homeschool. It's been a nightmare. And I don't have the room to work. And so yeah, I've not met my target. And then people can become quite emotional. Because you see, we don't always know everything of people's life. I mean, you know, people will have luggage, right, we will have a breaking point. And people are tested at the moment. So it's also Well, how do you respond to that? I mean, you know, we've got to be human, there's some people for whom at the moment, it's very testing. And, you know, not everybody has a house and a nice garden. And, you know, not everybody has that, people have to homeschool children, they have to do a full time job, they have to cook. And you know, they probably have parents that are in a home or you know, unwell. And so it's a bit like what I was saying at the beginning, where we're, we're wearing different hats. And so it's also about having empathy. And that doesn't mean that you accept the poor performance or you know, but it means that you change the conversation, and you put some, you show empathy, compassion, and, and you put some support in place, you do whatever you can do to support those people. But I was listening on on LinkedIn, there was a good conversation this week, actually, to a leader. And she said, Well, I'm doing everything for my team, I will do everything I can for my team. And so that's great, right, but I did respond in the post. And I said, that's great, Sarah, it's brilliant. But what are you doing for yourself? You know, because you're typically we all have a breaking point. And we've all been there, right? I mean, if people tell me, I've never had the breaking, you know, I've always been great. And in my career, I don't really believe that. I think there is always a point in your career where things are challenging and tough. I've been through that as well. You know, and how do you look after yourself? And where do you get the strength to keep going? You know, because because it's a bit like a car, you haven't got any petrol can go anywhere. So So, I think finding your strengths and finding what keeps you going is really key to have the courage to have those conversations that are constructive, that are courageous conversations, where at the end, you don't have people who are left emotionally, a wreck or you know, low are in tears, and I think we have a sense duty of care. I think that's really important. And I've always spoken about that, you know, the duty of care for people, no matter what you do. And so this is why I spend a lot of time talking to my clients about Okay, so how are you going to turn that difficult conversation into a courageous conversation, right? And what do you want to achieve? And then let's work backwards. And, you know, what works for one person may not work for the others, I mean, we're all very different, we all have very different DNA. And we'll Yeah, we're all very different. So there is not, there may be a kind of framework, but then you have to use it in the way that it works for you, in the way that you feel confident about it. Because people are opposite you, you know, when they are seeing you on Zoom, they're gonna see that you're not authentic. And, and it's all it's important to be to be yourself, and to be in agreement with what you're saying, you know, to be authentic, I think is really, really important. And to understand that, you know, everybody's trying to do their best at the moment. And the best at the moment may not be, you know, the top performance, but actually, we talk about surviving, you know, and people say, Yeah, but we can thrive as well. Yeah, sure, we can, right, but let's, let's help people, and let's see what we can do. And I see a lot of organisations and leaders trying to do their best, you know, and, and do things that probably they would never have done before. But they go the extra mile, because we're all being challenged to do things differently, and things for which we've not been prepared. We've not studied, I mean, you and I, Jenny, we've not studied at all, you know, leading in a crisis, like the one we are at the moment, despite all the qualifications that we have. So we're not improvising, but we're evolving to navigate the crisis and, and it's challenging for a leader. But you know, there are some amazing people out there who are doing it and credit to them.Jenny  I think there's some great nuggets there. I mean, having a level of self awareness for a start being really prepared for your, your difficult conversation, planning out what the outcome, the ideal outcome would be, but not being too rigid. Having bags of energy, empathy, sorry, asking the right questions, having, you know, considered their circumstances, have that in mind. And also considering their personality and their style and their communication style. And being authentic with how you come across, you know, be be real, don't try to be someone else or conduct the meeting or the conversation in another way other than really yourself. And honesty is coming through there. I think this is, that's great tips. Tell me, do you think having difficult conversations with your employees, like as a leader? Do you think there's anything different if you're having a manager, you're managing a difficult conversation with the client? Do you think the skills are fundamentally the same? Or do you think there's any differences?Nadine   I think you I mean, I think it's a little bit different, because you don't line manage your client, to some extent, right? It's a different relationship on that level, they don't work for the company, they work with the company. So I think it's a different relationship, you also have a lot to lose with your clients. Because if they, if they walk away from a contract, and you know, you, you have a bit of a problem there. So I think it's, I think it's a different relationship. But I think that the, the strategy that you use to have a conversation can be can be the same. You know, when you analyse a conversation, I'm doing a lot of work at the moment on that Jenny. On analysing conversations and what they are made of, right. You would still ask questions. So  it's about looking at type, the types of questions that you're asking, looking at the type of language that you are using, and looking at the reciprocity in the conversation. And whether it's a colleague or a client, you do that anyway. Right? If you're a great leader, you do that anyway. And looking at the interaction, so is it me who is talking on me or am I inviting? Is there an invitation or am I just talking over all the time, and you know, the intonation, the pace at which you are talking the choice of words that you're using, you know, the silence because people need time to think and process at the moment. The respect that you are showing, I mean, all of that, whether it's a client or an employee for me, they are kind of the same pointers, right? Just need to use them very, very differently. And this is why I'm spending more time looking at the quality of the conversations. It's not about the lens, right, you can have a 10 minutes. And it's a very powerful conversation, you can have a half an hour conversation, and it totally destroys a relationship. So it comes back to who you are, and how self aware of your own practice you have when you are having a conversation. And I have often wondered if I was in because sometimes people are missing? Well, here we go again, Nadine is going about the conversation analysis, you know. And I'm wondering if it's because I'm bilingual, so I'm kind of navigating two languages at the same time, I'm a linguist. So my favourite tool is you and I have discussed that before as the thesaurus is a very important tool for me. You know, so I've often wondered if I'm putting more emphasis on those than you know, other people, I don't think I am actually because I've done some research on conversation analysis, and it does exist, I'm not the only one to do it. I mean, many people have done it. But it's just that when you're aware of that, and those pointers, then you can, you can do it in a better way. Because you are reflecting on how you're doing it. But somebody needs to show you, this is why having a coach or you know, somebody needs to point that out to you.Jenny   I this is so funny that we're having this conversation, and I'm so glad you steered the conversation in this way. Because when I train account managers, how to grow existing accounts, we talk about conversations, they're completely different conversation. They're not necessarily difficult, they're more expansive. And I often say it's not what you say it's how you say it. Because, you know, you could say or Let's ask for a referral. And a client might say to me, Well, I've asked, but hang on a minute, how did you ask, give me the context? And what was the intonation? How? So I love this? And do you think rehearsal is a an important factor of preparation? But what about rehearsal? Or do you think that makes it too staged?Nadine   I've actually done some work on that, because there is a school of thought that says, rehearsal are never true conversation. Because they are predictable, right? Because you come and you know, it's a rehearsal. It's kind of a roleplay. It's a simulation. I actually disagree with that. And I filmed three conversations recently, that were a simulation for one of the training that I'm doing online. And it was very authentic, you know, the script. There was a, there was a an overall context of the situation. And then the actors went, we just went with the conversation. And I think that that simulation enabled observers to grasp the good points or the strengths of the conversation, but also, what could be improved for the future for them. And so I think simulations has a place where it needs to be the right one, I think it has a place and you know, as a linguist, I would say that I mean, I've learned English doing role plays, right? So without roleplays, I wouldn't be able to speak as a as as I do now. And, you know, and children learn by modelling by repeating, you know, so I think I think they do for me, my school of thinking the Powrie School of thinking will be that simulations are helping, there is no doubt.Jenny   Clearly, you're an expert in this space. And I'm looking at the time I just want to be conscious of time knitting, so know how busy you are no thinking, I would love to kind of for you to tell us a bit more about your programme that you have for managing difficult conversations and also your leadership programme that you have. So can you tell us like typically, what kind of clients go through this programme? And, and who, who would you like most to, to work with?Nadine  Okay, so so if I say to you that my clients are leaders who are working around the world, and they lead teams, multi cultural teams, and  they are all going through a period of change, that they're all having to have some conversations at some points that are what they perceive to be difficult conversations, but what are in effect courageous conversations? So I have 20 different courses, modules that you can choose different topics because what I did,  a year ago is I did a market survey on what were the main conversations that were difficult for people. I did that on LinkedIn. And then they came, people responded to me came up with all kinds of topics, I did some research as well, with CIPD,  Harvard University, so I came up with 17 topics, and then I added three more. And the three more were about leading teams virtually, because actually, that can be quite difficult as well. So I've got 17 on very specific topics like performance management, personality clashes, pay, diversity, you know, you just name it, you just need to go onto my website, Nadinepowrie.com. And you will see where they are. And I've got three on leading teams virtually, where I've got business simulations, where people can actually see a real one to one meeting happening. And they're able to study and observe and learn from it. And, yes, and the leadership and the leadership, executive coaching, this is  more bespoke to some extent, I don't have a programme search, because it's bespoke for whoever comes and say this is what we want. So I tailor it for people, I don't believe that coaching is just looks like this. Right? I think it's very specific to each individual. And, yeah, everybody has their own DNA. So I'll put a DNA on each of them. So that's kind of how I work. And I can do that in English. And I can do that in French.Jenny   Wow. Honestly, that sounds so valuable. Thank you so much for sharing. And we'll include the link in, in the podcast notes. And, Nadine, do you have any final words of wisdom? For anyone listening that thinks  I've got to  manage, I've got to manage a difficult conversation? Or, you know, I feel that I need some help with my leadership, any kind of words of wisdom that you'd like to leave, leave us with?Nadine   I think I would say, think about the opportunity that this conversation could give you. Which is, you know, it doesn't come from me. So let's be clear, right. I had a coach when I was ahead. And and she was actually on my LinkedIn live last Friday. And one of the questions that she kept asking me, when when I was struggling with some challenges, right, and some difficult conversations coming my way. She always asked me that question. So what opportunities is that giving you, and at the time I felt, well, that's not giving me any opportunity, but to be stressed, and really worried. And actually, she was right to ask me that, because it did give me a lot of opportunities. And you know, many of those were very positive. And, you know, one of them is to build relationships with people. And so that would be what I would leave you with Jenny.Jenny  Thank you. That's a fantastic reframe. And a nice, perfect point to leave it there with so Nadine, thank you so much for sharing so much value, and so many stories, and it's been rich with nuggets of wisdom and also tips. So thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.Nadine  Thank you, Jenny, for having me. Thank you so much.Jenny   It's a pleasure.

Transcript:Jenny:So today on the show, I'm really excited about chatting to Sarah Deakin and Ruby Beagan. They're both from Thursday, which is a creative agency. And they're both account directors. And the reason I invited them on is because they're very impressive account directors, I believe that they do a lot of account directorship really, really well. Some of those things that I've seen and watch them do is being really consultative with their clients. I think they show up and they ask the right questions in meetings, they also bring their clients fresh ideas, new thinking, insights and trends. And generally, they're adding value to every interaction. And they're very commercially astute. Apart from all of that they're also very energetic and engaging. And they're part of my sort of inner circle of account directors that I want to be around, because I learn a lot from them. And what I've also observed from both of these girls, is the fact that they're always open to new ideas, they're humble enough to know they don't know everything, they approach challenges with a real sort of resilience and a thirst for knowledge. So, I love being around them. And that's one of the reasons I wanted them to come on. Because I'm sure there's a lot of either account managers looking to step up to account director or account directors that are looking for other ideas from other agencies. So I see this interview as a bit of an exchange of information. So I'm gonna pass over to maybe I could start with Sarah, and just tell us a bit about you, Sarah, your role at Thursday, how you got into account management, and kind of what you do on a day to day basis.Sarah: So I'm an account director at Thursday. So we're about the 20 strong inside lead design studio in Winchester, I was previously, my previous role was with an agency called Skyline, which was a slightly smaller agency. And we were sort of specialised in really short lead times, we were very reactive agency worked incredibly closely with our clients, you know, they pick up the phone to us, and we try and turn things around super quickly. So very relationship focused role at Skyline. And then, about a year and a half ago, perhaps two years ago, Thursday acquired Skyline and Thursday are much more kind of insight led and strategic in their culture. So the merge with Thursday brought about a company which was an agency, which was much more kind of sort of full service agency. And that's where we are now. Jenny:Amazing. Thanks, Sarah. What about you, Ruby?Ruby:Hello, thank you. I'm Ruby Beagan. And I am one of the, alongside Sarah, one of the account directors at Thursday, which is a design studio based in Winchester. At Thursday, we use design to explore our client's problems. And we have a real focus on clarity. And it was only this morning, actually, that I had a client say to me, oh, it now makes sense. And it's those sorts of moments that we were really after. So that's kind of what gets us up in the morning. I started my account management journey five years ago, and I think, probably with quite a lot of people within Client Services, I fell into it. It's not really the kind of career that you get told about school, it's not really kind of on your radar from a young age. You know, it's usually a vets, or, in my case, I think I wanted to be a midwife, but my biology teacher told me to take a different route. So that ended that dream. But yeah, so I kind of left uni, panicked, got a call centre job, because it was kind of like, oh, I'm out of education, straight into job, didn't wanna sort of take that gap year, did it for six months, hated it, and then looked into kind of pursuing a career in Client Services.Jenny:Wow. But Client Services in agencies or client services, it could be anywhere because presumably, in the call centre, you've got quite a lot, you got used to speaking to people all the time, which is part of our role, isn't it?Ruby:Yeah. So from the call centre, I went to a letting agents, so kind of did all that customer service side of things and management of properties. And then from that, that was a leap into agency.Jenny:Amazing. Well, thank you both so much. Sarah, can I ask you a question? We recently there's been a lot of debate about what value the role of an account manager or account director actually brings. So would you mind just sharing your view on what you believe account management actually brings to the party to both agencies and clients?Sarah:Yeah, well, I think we, from a client's point of view, we're acting as that liaison between themselves and the agency. So we've got this really good view of both worlds. So we put ourselves in the world of the client, we learn about what they do, what the industry is doing. And then we you know, we know like the back of our hand what, you know, how the agency runs and the strategic side of, you know, what value we can deliver. So it's just about kind of maximising those opportunities, making sure that we're delivering to the best of our ability.Jenny:I think you're right, I mean, I've seen particularly you Sarah being really as I said in the intro, very consultative with your clients really getting under the skin of their businesses, finding about what challenges they have, their pain points and bringing solutions that don't always necessarily fall in the remit of the services you provide at Studio, at the Thursday studio. So I think you're absolutely right. You really sort of play this Ambassador role. What about you, Ruby? Is there anything else you can add to that?Ruby:Yeah, I totally agree with Sarah, we, you know, Client Services, value added for the agency with definitely the hub, we kind of bring everything together, we are, we are the glue. And I am including project management when I sort of mentioned that, but I do think account management, we have the deepest understanding of our clients businesses, the ways they like to work, their expectations. We also know the pressures they're under, the stakeholder management, what they need to be able to do their job well. And I think we, within our agency, we represent our client, and sometimes fiercely, you know, we have resourcing meetings where people are trying to take away our resource and we protect our clients, you know, we fiercely, like, no, it needs to be done. We're managing expectations. So I think agency side where we're that hub, and then client side, like Sarah said, I think we're, we're an extension of their team, we have that crucial, outsider's point of view, but we're also an extra brain or an extra pair of hands for them on their day to day stuff. And we don't sort of just say yes to all their requests, we make sure we challenge them with consideration to make sure that all the solutions that we're giving them are meeting their problems and overcoming them hurdles, so that we sort of understand not just the current day problems, but also keeping in mind the bigger picture, like you said.Jenny:It's a really, really good point. Actually, there was a study done by Gartner last year, and I shared that insight with you and I thought is really, really insightful because the study was among 700, B2B organisations. And they were asking the question about why do the company, why don't you grow at the company, and they've realised that account management, if they go above and beyond in terms of service, they will only reach a level of retain, they'll retain the account. But in order to go beyond that, and actually grow that account, they have to have what they call customer improvement conversations with their clients. And that's where you are being more critical, you are being more challenging, you are delivering more insight and really stretching the client. So I love that you brought that up Ruby. The other thing that you just said that I would love you to sort of go into a bit more detail about is in your agency, you separate the PM function, the project management function from the account management function. Now, with my other clients, they, they don't make that separation. So effectively, that one person is doing both roles. Can you talk to me a little bit about how that works for you, and also what you believe kind of the fors and againsts?  Ruby:Hmm, definitely. So I've been in an agency that does both one where it was a jewel role, and I was kind of director and PMing. And then in other agencies where the roles are separate. And I think that, you know, it is separate to an extent, Sarah, and I very much still know what's happening in our projects. But splitting it out means that Lucy, our project manager Lucy is able to work on the day to day stuff. So the timelines requiring information and content and kind of all of that information and making sure that all the cogs are turning correctly. And then it allows Sarah and myself to kind of come in above that, although we have full knowledge of the day to day, we're able to grow that client account, we're able to talk to them strategically, because they don't always want to talk to us about the day to day. We're able to kind of pause that and get them to look forward, which is which is a massive benefit of having that split role. It also means if you're navigating some of the trickier situations and conversations you're able to say, Oh, hang on, let me take that back to my project manager. And I can come back to you on that. And it kind of you don't have, feel that you sort of put on the spot, you know of what date is this going to be delivered? Or can we bring this in sooner, kind of some of those time concerning questions. So I think it does help in having that other person and then doing a joint role, I've done that as well. And similarly you kind of you just navigate around it, it is just a little bit harder to get the headspace to think strategically and think about the bigger picture because you are more bogged down in the day to day.Jenny:That's exactly what I hear a lot. And it's interesting you said earlier on that it kind of separates you from the delivery. So if the project isn't going to time or to budget for whatever reason, does that mean you don't have to have those conversations with the client if something's going you know, haywire, who actually does have that conversation because, you know, we know there's always challenges particularly with tight deadlines and things. So what actually happens in in sort of the day to day running?Ruby:I think scenarios when a project is kind of needing that additional level of support, we, Sarah and I, definitely do get involved and having that conversation and kind of, but being on the client side, sometimes project managers are more on the agency side, on the basis that they're seeing all the numbers and times and, and are very realistic whereas account management, you can kind of be like, Okay, well, let me see what I can move around and, and be a little bit more accommodating in some, in some ways to just try and kind of soften that message. So I think we do definitely come in and help with the more difficult conversations when things are not working. But before we do that, we obviously worked with a project manager to kind of be like, so what, what's a compromise? What can I take to this conversation that says, Okay, we're not going to meet that. But we're going to do this, and we're going to do that. So it's kind of you're going in prepared, I think that is one of the most important things to those difficult conversations where you're about to deliver a little bit of bad news is having something good to kind of help them along their way as well. Jenny:That's great tip. Thank you, Ruby, would you add anything to that Sarah, about the separation of the PM and the AM role?Sarah:Yeah, well, just that, you know, being able to move away from the conversation, and to really fully brief yourself on reasons why. If you know, if there are any problems or anything to overcome, it's just really good to be able to go to the team, I think just to go to the team and have a really good chat, you know, even sketch it out. Why has this not happened? Why is that? What's the blocker, so that you're really well briefed to be able to go back? Because sometimes, you know, I think we all have it, where we, you know, or one on one conversation doesn't quite hit the mark, you just need that little bit of backup, you need to revisit the timelines, the reasons, a lot of these projects are really complicated. And, you know, just having those simple conversations about what's coming in on track. And what is and isn't that simple. So it's just about being able to just have those conversations internally and then go back fully informed.Jenny:I'm probably going a little bit too deep into this. But I know it's a topic of conversation that comes up a lot, the separation of the PM and AM role. So do you think in terms of a skill set that's required for the AM and the PM, the PM needs to be better versed in technical skills? Or do you think that it's really important for the aim to totally understand and maybe have done that role so that they equally are as proficient with the understanding of how a project works like that? What are your views on that? That’s a weird one, but just curious what you think?Ruby:The first agency I was at was very technical, and I kind of got catapulted into it, and had to learn the ropes quite quickly. And the project managers that were extremely technically advanced, and they were very, very good at their jobs. And actually, I probably didn't need to input technically. But having that knowledge and going to a job role really helped me. So I would definitely say if anyone is in Client Services, or looking to get into Client Services, understanding the technicalities, and even not just technicalities, I think the brand process photography, social media, I think if you can become your own expert within that area, I do think it really helps to have those conversations, and just your general understanding of knowing when things are going off on a different sort of par for and being able to have them conversations with your clients. I do think it helps.Jenny:I think you're spot on there. And I think I tuned into an interview with Martin Sorrell yesterday and we were, he was, talking about the importance of keeping up to speed with what's happening. The industry in terms of marketing is changing all the time. I mean, digital technologies are available now that weren't available only few years ago. So I think it's also great that you have that ability to maybe spot what the trends are, you know, not just for the customers business, but clients business, but also for your industry and what's changing. So I think I think there's a real strong argument for separating those roles. And Sarah, can I just ask you, what do you believe the difference is, if any, of having an account manager role and account director role.Sarah:So I would say, an account manager, you know, essentially you are solving client problems, you're, you know, getting to the bottom of what needs to be done, and you're doing it, you're delivering it to budget on, you know, on time. With an account director, I just think that you're coming in at a more strategic level. So you're understanding that for the client's industry, you're ahead of the curve, hopefully, in that industry and knowing what's coming next, being able to advise on that level. So you're not just talking about the agency world anymore. You're talking about the client's world, and then marrying the two together and then you know, just being able to partner with them really, and they're thinking and thinking going forward to so you know, even looking next year, maybe even you know five years time you're looking ahead all the time and, you know, drawing observations from the industry.Jenny:I think it's a really good point, actually. I interviewed a lady called Kate Whittaker, who is head of corporate communications for Dual Group, which is an insurance group. And she said that it was particularly beneficial for her to have an agency that was working with her that understood her market and her industry. But how do you stay on top? Like, how do you stay on top of what's happening in your clients industry? Sarah:For me,  I just keep an eye on the news. I've got some Google Alerts set up that sort of thing. LinkedIn is really helpful, too, if you, you know, got the right channels set up on LinkedIn, and following, I think a really quick way is following my own clients and their competitors on LinkedIn, seeing what they're talking about, often they'll refer to an article about, talk about an event, or even events, we can go to events. But back when we could go to events, and just keep on top of it. And that's the really, really quick way of doing it actually, just tuning into what the clients talking about. But obviously, you want to bring something new to the table. So you want to be making sure that you're well versed in similar areas or with their competitors, or other areas. Yeah, so that would be, that would probably be the simplest way of doing it. At this point it’s interest, I think as well, just having a genuine interest. Because these industries really are interesting, they've got a lot, you know, that, particularly over the last 12 months, a lot has been happening in different markets. And it's really interesting, just paying attention to the changes, and being able to take those observations back to the clients.Jenny:I love that you brought that up, actually, because I think you're right, LinkedIn is really, you know, you could be entering the conversation with your clients online, as well as offline. I think it's just another opportunity, as well as staying informed with what's going on in your clients, industry. Ruby, what about you? Would you add anything to that in terms of a the separation of the AM and AD role, but also operating at an AD level? Anything else?Ruby:Yeah, I would say that, personally, I think that leap from senior account manager to account director is one of the biggest and one that you should feel ready for. And, you know, I'd advise anyone that's in Client Services, not to rush through the ranks, you know, go from exec to account management to senior to AD and get an understanding at each level. Because once you are an account director or Client Services Director and managing a team, I think you need to have that empathy and understanding of all the levels to really kind of help manage your team. So firstly, I'd say don't, you know, rush through the ranks. And then I think the other sort of areas in my personal career that attributed to that step up was firstly, managing a team, that sort of day to day management, as well as creating their growth path and mapping out their commercial and client and personal based objectives, having those check ins and almost putting not your own career to one side, but acknowledging other people's as well. And being that person that's passionate and wanting them to be the best version of themselves and highlighting areas for improvement or kind of going back constantly going back to the objectives and saying, Where are we at with this one? Have we met that commercial target to do all of those things, I think, attributed to me becoming an account director. And then secondly, like Sarah said, I think it's having that additional layer to your client partnership. It's not just being firmly by their side, but with them at the forefront of their business, helping them drive it forward, taking in all of that insights from our industry, from their industry, and just making sure that you're kind of aligned with their not just current ambitions, but future ones as well.Jenny:Very well said. What do you both feel about thought leadership? Because I always see that on LinkedIn, for example, I think it's the platform at the moment to be on, to enter the conversations with clients, but also to share your thoughts about what's changed in the market, maybe sharing what you know. Sarah mentioned earlier on about going to conferences and events and those insights that you pick up first-hand, how important do you think thought leadership is to for account management?Sarah:In order to demonstrate, as in us writing pieces? And, yeah, well, I think, yes, it's really important, it just is a change from the norm. And I think that's what people look for in an agency they're looking for, they're not just looking for people to do what they're telling them to do. They're looking for people to, to think differently, and to challenge what's been done. And obviously they call it, you know, just disrupting, and just new thinking, and that's what people that's, you know, above and beyond what a lot of agencies offer. So, um, and I think that draws people's attention to, to us as an agency.Jenny:Really well said, thanks, Sarah. Ruby, can you give us some examples of where you think that account management has made or you yourself has made a difference to the bottom line of the client?Ruby:Yeah, of course. So I had a university approached us a few years ago with a brief to help drive Open Day attendees. And that was kind of the extent of the brief, it wasn't very deep. So we work closely with them to kind of build that solution and seamlessly allow users to engage with the university and book open days and the project KPIs were met. And that brief was fulfilled. But as part of the account management process, and being involved in the insights phase of that project, we did like a sort of a deep dive into everything. And we discovered there was a series of mundane tasks that staff were having to do manually. So we looked to overcome that as part of this project and automate those tasks, so that not only did it boost general morale, but it also empowered the team to spend more time on strategic partnerships, which had an amazing bottom, you know, effect on the client's bottom line. And it was a great example of how account management and insights, not only did we achieve the original brief, but we overcome other problems that they were not even aware of. And these were operational or internal engagement problems. So it was kind of a massive learning curve for me how account management and sitting there and questioning things and going down different avenues with the client to not just accept that the brief was to drive Open Day attendees, but delve in a little bit further, we overcame a much bigger issue than they thought and, you know, it was sort of a two prong approach. And they got the Open Day numbers up and they also improved internal efficiencies and morale. So it was a really great outcome that kind of demonstrates that, through design and development, you can kind of overcome a multitude of hurdles that you probably didn't even know, were there when writing the brief.Jenny:I think that is such a super example of adding additional value to a client's business. And actually, the client presents a problem to you, but actually, is that the problem? Is it the only problem? What's the impact of that problem? And what else can we see that perhaps they're not seeing? So a couple of questions on this particular example? Because I think it's a great one. Do you find sometimes that clients are reluctant to share with you more information about their business, so that you can sort of lift the lid on what's happening? And how did you do it in that, in that instance.Ruby:So as part of all of our projects, we have an insights phase, where we kind of want to go in and do a deep dive in. And that is, you know, sold in from new business as part of our journey. And it's such a crucial part. And it's usually done through interviews with personnel in the team. So you kind of understand, so it's not just capturing all this information from the marketing manager or CTO or CMO, you're kind of broadening out to understand other people's views on the business problems or all that solution, you know, everyone knew we were working towards driving open days, and we're asking people's opinions on and understanding the workflow of delivering these open days, and these mundane series of tasks were completed manually, and what had to be done before the Open Day booking could be completed. And we sort of spoke to them about these tasks and how much time it was taking up. And we kind of built a little bit of a business case to really kind of explore this further with the client, which obviously, they saw the amount of time that was being put into these tasks, and realise that automating them would cause I think it was about 30% efficiencies. Jenny:Wow. So if you hadn't have spoken to other people about the problem in the organisation, you may or may not have uncovered that insight. That's, that's brilliant. So that's a really good tip, as well as for other people listening, the person that brings you the problem, you know, think about how that how the problem is currently affecting other people get their views on what how they see the problem. And through that, you get the insight. I think that's a great example. Sarah, do you have any other examples of where you've added value to the bottom line of the client's business?Sarah:I've got some examples. But I just wanted to say that, you know, generally, at Thursday, that is the way we approach every problem with the insight phase. And I just think that, you know, as a general, without specific examples, I think we just, we, we take that approach each time, so a client will come to us very often a client will come to us and say I need a website, or I need a new, you know, an app or whatever it might be. And we always as a matter, of course, will sit down with them and actually analyse what they're asking us. Start again, you know, and just find out what the driver is behind that and what it is that they're trying to achieve. So we'll look at the objectives, we'll look at the goals, and then we go all the way back to the beginning and figure out if that really is the question, is it the website? Is it the brand where you know, so for example, somebody did come to us recently for a website, actually, it was a problem with the brand. So we have rebranded that company now and we're already looking at really exciting results from that. And then we will go on and do a website. It's those sorts of things as well. We were saying, you know, it's just about asking the questions. And we are, yeah, we’ve got lots of examples of companies that have come back to us and said, you know, you have made a direct impact on my bottom line through the projects that we've done with you. It’s exciting stuff. Jenny: It really, really is. I'm so glad you're explaining this, because I think this is key really, to how we can add value, as, you know, as an industry as a role, and I suppose I kind of want to dive even deeper into it. But I think you've really explained that the key crux and I suppose I want to ask you the same question, Sarah, about is there ever any reluctance? You know how sometimes it's a character thing, isn't it? If your client comes to you, yeah, I just need a website, we'll just get on with it. I just made the decision. I always use the analogy of being a doctor diagnosing problems, we kind of have to ask loads of questions to really uncover all the symptoms, but sometimes people come and they're self diagnosed. Yeah, what the problem is, I've chosen my medicine, and I just need you to just write the prescription. Do you ever find that?Sarah:It does happen? And it's usually and again, you know, we're always going to have some conversations anyway, whether we explained that we need to sit down and really identify the issues.Ruby:I think it's probably particularly with existing clients, isn't it, Sarah, that we find that I think new clients are more than happy to go through the deep dive insights, but existing clients, once they've done that big brand and big website projects? And they're like, right, I need this and we go, right, let's delve into why you need that. And they're like, Oh, no, I just need, you know, they've been through the process. They're like, you know, enough about me. So there are times where you have to know your clients, I think, and you have to understand when they want to go through it, and not and Sarah and I, I mean, we definitely experience clients pushing back and saying, This is what I need, I just need that.Jenny:That’s a really good point, actually, to separate it from brand new clients who are working with you for the first time and it makes sense. And then those ongoing relationships. So that's the reality, isn't it, Sarah? Are you gonna say something else?Sarah:Just often down to time restraint, and budgetary restraints with clients, if they feel like there are new requirements, and they need it done quickly, then yes, they often do come to us and say, right, forget asking any questions, let's just get this done. But we do, we do still try to as far as possible, even if it's reusing insight that we've done previously, you know, we will, we're reluctant really to kick off a project without any insight behind it. Because the end result is always so much better. When we've when you've got full visibility of what you're doing and why you're doing it.Jenny:I suppose it's also explaining why you're digging in further, you know, typically, with our other clients, we’ve found in the past that, you know, going a little bit deeper into this area helps them and make it about them. So that's a really good point. Why do you think clients stay with agencies for a long time, because I know that you've got very loyal clients. And obviously testament to Simon Harmer, who I think’s created a really fantastic culture where you both feel very, you know, happy in your roles, energised, motivated, and it's a real sort of team vibe, which I think, you know, culturally, I think the agency has got it right. But why do you think clients stay with you for so long?Ruby:I think it's the continuous stream of sort of forward thinking ideas that are rooted in the knowledge of the clients business, as well as their industry is key for client retention. I think this married with the kind of trust that's built up over a period of time, from Simon, from the developers, from, you know, the creative, a lot of people in our agencies are, they're client facing, you know, most people are more than happy to kind of jump on a call or present. And I think that's, that's really lovely that our clients really get to know not just Sarah and I, and Simon, but also the wider team. And I think that's really nice. And I think that married with transparency on communications, as well as kind of well delivered services helps with all the client retention.Jenny:Great points. What about you, Sarah? Anything to add to that?Sarah:Yeah, I think we are lucky with our team that just such a great bunch of people and we've got, again, you know, we're lucky with our culture and that we've got this incredibly supportive agency. So within the studio, as Ruby said, people jump on calls, they present, we all do things together and people our clients do know, the wider team. I just think we're supportive of each other and, we have a group meeting every morning and we can just say, you know, in that meeting, look, I need a bit of help over here. This is a you know, we've got a new delivery date over here. What can we do and I just find that people just come out of the woodwork and say, right, they roll up their sleeves and help with anything we need help with. So we get things done. So, you know, it's that accountability, you know, even the wider team, even the people that wouldn't necessarily in some agencies have been be client facing or have any real direction. accountability to a client. I think here, people do feel accountable, everybody feels accountable. And everybody feels that, you know, they've got this responsibility to deliver what we've said will deliver. Jenny:I think this is huge. And you too, I think you remind me of my Publicis days, and the team that we had there was it truly was, it felt like a family. We were all, we had each other's back. And it was just such a lovely environment, I missed that so much. And it was a very special time. Because, you know, you just you want to be there and you want to help each other and I just, I get that vibe from you every time I speak to you. Tell me about, we're obviously recording this in December 2020, we are in, we've just come out of lockdown because of global pandemic. I would love you to just touch on maybe some of the challenges you've had, from an account management perspective, any challenges you've experienced as a result of suddenly everyone working from home and maybe having to speak to clients at home? Or getting stuff done? What's kind of, what's been happening? your side?Sarah:Yeah, I think that it's, it's brilliant, when we're all in the agency together, when we're all in the studio together, you know, we can just pull into meetings, ad hoc, we can just, you know, have discussions over the desks. We can't do that now. And that's, that is hard. Because, you know, we do work together so well, we create things together. So I think that's, that is a drawback that we have to work in our silos, we, you know, a lot has done over Messenger, over Zoom, it's just not quite the same. And in a creative space, I think you get the best synergies with colleagues, when you are in a room together. And there's just the fun bit as well, you know, just the social bit, but, you know, I think we, we are lucky, Zoom, I know that it's not everybody's favourite thing, but it's been a lifesaver. And, and I think that we never had any qualms in jumping on a video call with clients before. So this was just an extension of that. And our clients have been very receptive to that, you know, they're just very happy to. We've just kept regularly checking in with clients, even if it's just to have a chat and just say, how's it all going? Isn't this all a bit weird? You know, they've bee  happy to chat and, and from that, sometimes they'll open up start talking about business opportunities, things that they quite like to do, things they'd like to look into. And we've been able to see where we can help.Jenny:Have you found that they've been more accessible than usual, because they're at home and have more time for you?  Sarah:At times they are, depending on the client, at times, yeah, they can be more accessible. And there have been times I just think that in an office environment, your times a bit more segmented, and you've got a meeting all morning, and then you're out of the office, you know, whatever it might be, Whereas you know, you don't have that travel time you don't, there is more downtime, possibly, depending on the client. And it doesn't mean that, you know, they're more likely to want to have a chat, really.Jenny:I love what you said there, you just phoning in, you know, phoning to check on them. And then that kind of leads naturally to business conversation. So that's kind of feels very natural. What about you, Ruby? What are the challenges? How have you seen this whole situation? And how have you overcome it?Ruby:So I think one of the kind of biggest challenges for me, regardless of COVID, really is managing scope creep, and maintaining a healthy partnership. I think that is probably one of the hardest aspects of our role, as account directors, is kind of maintaining that relationship, giving the client what they want, as well as not over burning hours in the studio. So I think, you know, a lot of projects start with a host of assumptions on both sides that aren't always captured in the initial brief, or in the initial, which are then not captured in the estimate. And these assumptions can be anything from, you know, functionality, they thought was meant to be included, or data automatically being pulled through. And I think COVID and doing it all over the phone or doing over Zoom has made it more difficult, because, you know, none of us have found that magic solution yet to overcome all the scope creep. But I think doing over zoom has made it a little bit more difficult. So I like to have quite an open conversation at the start of the partnership, you know, maybe over a kind of introductory lunch or quite softly where we kind of explained that all the assumptions will be unearthed in the early stages and things will be brought to the surface and that we will collaboratively overcome these. So I think not being able to kind of book those lunches and have those soft touches make some of the harder conversations down the line a little more trickier to navigate.Jenny:That's really interesting, actually. And I'm glad we're talking about it because scope creep is huge. It's one of the biggest problems that we have to manage, isn't it? Yeah. And what you just said there was really key I think, is sort of managing expectations from the beginning, but also sort of preparing the client for the fact that there may be assumptions that we were both making and that are going to come up throughout the project that will have to talk about. Ruby:I think setting that foundation to have that transparent conversation is key. And you know, I like to capture all of these probably in a statement of work or something like that, and use prioritising methods, usually a Moscow approach methodology where it - must have, should have, could have, won’t have, an understanding their priorities so that I can then go back to the team and say, like, this is a really small tweak, can we squeeze it in budget, letting the client know as well that we've managed to squeeze that one in just so that they're kind of aware of what is coming through and what isn't? And, you know, some of the larger assumptions, you know, is there a workaround that we can do that brings it within budget, or if not provide an additional quote for it. And I just, I also think for other account managers and account directors, I think having that conversation where the client assumed it was included we’ve not assumed it's included, is a tricky one. And I think having the confidence to kind of, you know, provide work around or if not possible, show them all the things that have been included, that weren’t initially included, and be confident enough to provide a quote and explain that, you know, it might be that we can do this in phase two. And it's also once you've built that relationship with the client, there are elements of, or assumptions that don't squeeze into phase one, it's an amazing way of building that shopping list for your account plan for future growth from the phase two. Because you've instantly got a whole host of requirements that your client wants to action, and they can be rolled out quite quickly after the initial phase. So it can really help with rolling your account and, and keeping that client working with the agency after the kind of big ticket piece of work.Jenny:Really good points here. First, slight point, Moscow, um, repeat that for us Ruby:So, must have, should have, could have, won't have. So it's a nice way for them to prioritise and really sort of sit down. But we really must have that. We should have that, shouldn't we? Because I know Peter wants that or could have, okay, well, there's a few people that want it and won't have fine, you know, it is a bottom of the priority list. So it's a way that they can kind of sit down and know that it's business critical that we must have it and then we have to have quite transparent conversations about that.Jenny:Love that tip Ruby, that's a great tip. Thank you. What about scope creep, where it's less about additional features, and not having identified those at the beginning. And it's just simply because the project is going on longer than we anticipated. And we're spending more hours any tips for any account manager that might be listening to this with that situation?Ruby:I would say really be transparent and let that client know, early, as soon as you know that this project is not on path, let them know. And you know, and  speak to your team don't just sit there and let it fester. Because it's only gonna get worse. I mean, I've learned from that it's not going to go away, speak to your team. And it might be that your boss says right, okay, well, I'm happy as a business to absorb X amount of hours because so and so needed training, or they needed to understand the project a little bit more. And, you know, have that conversation with the client, if there is an opportunity to say, right, as an agency, we're willing to invest X amount of hours, I was wondering, is there any way that we could get an extra X amount of hours so that we can finish this project and together and make sure it's the best version, so kind of letting them know that you've invested hours, and that you need a little bit from them as well. I found that has worked a bit, you need to be in a very good place with your partnership, and have already delivered some elements to build that trust. And so that they don't think, oh, you're just sort of swallowing all the time, make sure that they can see that you've delivered previously. I love that.Jenny:I think that's really, really good. Keep talking, keep the lines of communication really fluid and open, rip off the plaster have the conversation as early as you possibly can. And then come with it's only gonna get worse and then prepare some solutions or prepare you know, internally have that conversation before you go back to the client. So great, great advice. What other advice do you have Sarah for anyone that's listening to this and they think I need to kind of improve my account management skills or I need I want that promotion to account director, I'm ready for that. What else do I need to be doing? Any advice for client service people?Sarah:Yeah, I think you can just make sure you're educating yourself in your clients industry, making sure you're having that strategic relationship with them in terms of wanting to climb up the ranks I think you can demonstrate that you're doing your job through the agency numbers. So if you're clear on what you are delivering you know and having your targets set properly in terms of you know what, what is likely to happen what has happened in the past and you can show what you're bringing to the to the agency, they, you will get recognition for the role that you're playing in the agency. Jenny:Great advice, bring extra value, learn about the client’s business and watch the numbers. Ruby, anything else?Ruby:Yeah, I would say firstly obviously, reach out to yourself, Jenny. Every time I speak to you, you ignite a fire in my belly and remind me why I love what I’m doing. And I always come away feeling like I’ve been given a breath of fresh air, which is huge and I think if anyone is looking to improve to definitely, obviously reach out to yourself. And then secondly I would say work closely with your team.Jenny:You’re making me cry. I didn’t pay her, everybody, I didn’t pay her to say that!Ruby:Secondly work closely with your team, I’ve been in an agency where we were almost encouraged to compete against each other. And were given rewards for getting X amount of money in fastest and things like that and I just don’t think it’s a healthy culture. I think working closely with other people in your client services team. Share ideas, share tips, share stories. Don’t try and stand on each other’s toes. You know you’re in this together as an agency and as a department and I think that is probably one of the ways that I was able to improve my account management skills is from learning from others.Jenny:Great, great advice and thank you for saying that, it was very sweet. What else should you be focussing on, particularly with the account director role? We’ve mentioned understanding the client’s business, being consultative, asking the right questions, bringing insights, bringing new ideas, being ahead of the curve, watching the numbers. Anything that we haven’t mentioned leading the team, being collaborative, being a thought leader. Anything else that you think would be relevant for someone listening to this?Sarah:I think one of the tips you always s give is the asking at the right time for referrals from clients, because that’s a real driver for new business. So making sure you’ve got that, when things have gone right with a project, when you’ve got this strong relationship with your clients and you have demonstrated that your agency is really working int eh best possible way with the best possible results that moment is perfect to be able to ask who else can benefit from these sorts of services?  And they historically with us we’ve had clients that are really happy to pass on this referral and just to say yeah well it’s worked for me so why wouldn’t it work for this other associate? And it’s a brilliant way to move through and win new business. Jenny:I’m so glad you said that, Sarah, because that’s spot on. And I think Agencynomics have done a couple of surveys recently to show that I thinks its 30 percent of new business comes from clients who refer you to someone else or move somewhere else and take you with them. That’s huge, so if we’re not good at spotting the opportunities to ask for referrals then you know, it’s a missed opportunity. Sarah:Exactly, yes, just having that relationship where it’s possible to ask as well. You should be as an account director or account manager comfortable with you clients to that degree where you can happily ask for that. And if you don’t have that relationship its probably something you need to continue to work on.Jenny:Really good point. Ruby, who inspires you, who do you follow? What do you listen to, what do you read? You’ve mentioned resources for your role like LinkedIn, setting up Google Alerts, following your clients on social and understanding their industries. Where do you get this information, what do you do?Ruby:So I do a lot of talking I think. Rather than going to these sort of platforms I think I just do a lot of talking with others within client services. I have a former colleague at a previous agency that continues to inspire me, Jody Simpson, she’s just an absolute pocket rocket and even now we’ve both moved on , we’re both in separate agencies but we kind of whenever we’ve got an issue, it could be a client issue or just a general question it’s just having that network where you can kind of tap in and say I just need a bit of help, I’m a bit stuck, I don’t know where to go with this and being able to share stories or shed a bit of advice, or read a difficult email things like that. We do it together, Sarah and I and I would say that it’s those moments that inspire my career. I’m not a massive one for kind of reaching out or looking at and following people in this space. I think it’s more I have probably quite a small close knit network that inspires my career and definitely amongst the team at Thursday, Sarah, Simon, talking to other people that are right in the thick of it, I think that’s what helps me in my role.Jenny:Great, that’s really good advice. What about you Sarah?Sarah:Actually I have to say I’m quite similar to be honest. I think we all try and keep up to speed with what’s happening and there are things, I like to read Creative Review and that sort of thing because I’m at heart creative and that interests me. Keeping up to speed and seeing what the latest creative thinking is and the odd podcast but there’s nothing that I would say I religiously would go to, but like Ruby for me it’s conversations. And in those conversations people put you on to things all the time. Jenny, with me before you’ve said, have you heard this, have you read that? And I’ve got a weird personality that if someone says that to me I have to then do it. Have you read that, and it’s a whole book. Yes, I will then go and read that book. So there are little things but nothing that, I’ll take advice from other people on what to read and have those conversations. And we all seem to be pretty much up to speed so it seems to be working.Jenny:Absolutely, that’s great. Great advice. Final question – anyone listening to this who’s thinking about getting into agency account management what would your one piece of advice be? And don’t say don’t do it!Ruby:I would say be present on LinkedIn, make sure you build yourself a great profile and reach out to people in the industry. Everyone within account management, we love to chat. Reach out to people and just say hey have you got 5 minutes, can I have a chat? I’m thinking of getting into this industry  would you be able to shed some light. And just having that conversation it will build your confidence and it will also clarify whether it is a route that you want to take.Jenny:Brilliant advice. Sarah, anything else?Sarah:I think networking events, things like we do Tea and Toast at Thursday and a couple of other networking events that our marketing manager puts our way sometimes when things come up that are of interest. And I think that’s a brilliant way, you just, now that it’s all on Zoom if feels like it’s going to be a bit awkward particularly when they’ve got breakout rooms and you’ve got to chat to people you’ve never met, on Zoom. But actually, weirdly, it really works. I’ve found it really works. And I’ve met some really interesting people and if I was just starting out in this career I think that would be a great way to just to kind of get that exposure, to chat to people and to find out who you click with and if they potentially run an agency or work in that sector then it’s just a great intro.Jenny:Good advice, very good advice. Where can people reach you if they want to contact you to have a further chat?Ruby:LinkedIn, I’m always on LinkedIn. So just reach out, send a message and then we can set up a Zoom call.Jenny:Same for you Sarah?Sarah:I’m the same, yeah. I very often check my LinkedIn account.Jenny:Brilliant, alright. So thank you both so much, this has been so valuable. I know that you’ve shared so many tips and I’m sure people are thinking I didn’t think of that, or this was a great reminder or hopefully they are going to come away with some golden nuggets that they can apply in their businesses. So thank you both so much. 

Transcript  Jenny:So I'm really excited to welcome to the show, Alison Coward today who is the founder of Bracket Creative and Bracket Creative help teams work better together. Now the first time I met Alison was when she was speaking at an Agencynomics event. And she's a very well known keynote speaker. And I was just struck by how she captivated the audience. Literally all of these agency leaders were scribbling notes, because she was just so, so articulate for one, but also, her speech contained so much fact based, you know, there was data, there was thought leadership that she was quoting books and statistics, and it was so impressive, and we've become friends. And I'm, for that reason, we're both in the same kind of industries. Alison works with lots of different types of industry and companies, but specifically, we have an overlap in terms of agencies, because she works with agencies. I would love for you, Alison, I know you've got over 15 years experience, I'd love you to just give us a flavour of your experience. Alison:Yeah, well, firstly, thank you for having me, I always love our chat. So I'm really looking forward to this. I think you've given a really good introduction to what I do already. And my company is Bracket, I specialise in team culture and collaboration, I have been working in the creative industries, literally most of my career. And specifically what I do at Bracket is around helping teams to become more creative, more productive together, essentially looking at that high performance, but how can they make the most of the talents of the team and, get them to work together so they can achieve amazing things together and enjoy while they're doing it, as well. So I do a lot of workshop facilitation, which are sessions where we bring teams together, helping them to have productive discussions, and, you know, figure out what they're going to do, how they're going to do it, strategy, sessions, kickoff, sessions, brainstorming, you know, new idea type brainstorming sessions as well. The other thing that I do around that is a lot of my work is influenced by workshop facilitation. And I'll probably get into that a little bit later. We also do kind of training and coaching and consultancy, because I think one of the things that's really important to me is that people within teams become owners of their culture and responsible for their culture. So I'm really kind of quite keen on helping people to develop the skills that I have in particularly in facilitation, and how they can have better conversations about how they work together. Jenny:Fantastic, what I love, you always pop up on LinkedIn. And it's not necessarily that you're posting, it's because your clients tend to post about the experience of working with you. And they're usually just glowing with great feedback. So I know that you do some great work in the world, and why specifically, like turning our attention specifically to agencies, because this is the audience that I'm talking to mainly, why do you think it's important for agencies to pay attention to their team culture?  Alison:Yeah. So I mean, I come from the creative industries and create, like a creative background. So my history is in working with creative people, people that have you know, have got creativity as their currency. And there's one thing about like, being creative. But then there's another thing about the conditions that foster more creativity, and foster high performance. And that often comes down to things like the culture like, you know, how easy is it for people to put forward ideas? How supportive do they feel in their environment? How easy, how comfortable do they feel, taking risks, and making mistakes in front of their team members. And that's all cultural. So within an agency environment, focusing on the aspects around the team, which kind of create the environment for people to do their best work is super important. You know, you can be creative without some of those conditions. But if you do put those things in place, then you're going to get much more kind of productivity and creativity from a team. And as I say, they're going to enjoy doing it as well. Oh, and you know, enjoyment is a big part, enjoyment and engagement is a big part of doing great work. It's not kind of you know, if you do the work, and then you have fun, it's, it's completely interlinked. If you can enjoy what you do, then you produce better outputs. It's just as simple as that. Jenny:It's so true. I mean, you mentioned the creative output, which is so key to what we do as an industry and how great team collaboration and culture can foster that. What do you think the impact on the agency's bottom line is as a result of a strong team culture? Alison:Yeah, well, I mean, the thing that comes to mind when you when you talk about that is, and this is what I spoke about at the Agencynomics event, it was one of the things that I mentioned was the idea of psychological safety. And it was a study that came out, actually, psychological safety comes from I think it was coined by someone called Amy Edmondson who's an academic. She does a lot of work around like teams and teaming. But when Google did this internal research study into what made their most high performing teams, they found that psychological safety was right at the top of the list. They thought when they did this research because they wanted to understand like, what made the best teams perform highly? And how could they replicate that and they thought they were going to find things like, you know, IQ and like aspects of technical expertise, that kind of thing. But everything that they found was more cultural. And at the top of the list was this idea of psychological safety, which is people feeling safe to make mistakes, and take risks and learn from their mistakes, all within a team environment. So I mean, if Google were finding that this was what made them high performing teams, I definitely think it's something that we should probably all take notice of. And there's no I mean, there's loads of research studies, I can reel some off if I kind of look through my notes, but research that shows that when people are more engaged, and it leads to more productivity, when people are happier in their work meets more productivity, when people have good connections with their colleagues at work, it leads to more productivity. So there's, I mean, there's loads out there and show that concentrating on culture is not I mean, I think the problem with culture is that it can seem into intangible that, I think, is a mixture of so many different aspects. But it might be hard to pinpoint exactly which thing is having an impact on the bottom line, but all of it together definitely does. Jenny:I love that point about psychological safety. And it's, it's quite a well known study in certain circles. But if someone's listening to this, and it's the first time they've heard that concept, and they're thinking, actually, I want to make sure as a leader of an agency that I am creating an environment that my staff feel that they are psychologically safe, that they can admit they've made a mistake or take risks, why would they know they hadn't created that environment? What would they look for? Alison:What would they look for so? Honesty. Are people able to be honest? Are you able to constructively critique your teammates and team members ideas without, you know, it turning into unproductive conflict? Are you getting ideas from people, because the thing is, is if it's not psychologically safe, and then people are going to be afraid to say something that they think might be stupid. And we you know, we know in the brainstorming session, that often it's those kind of terrible, those ideas that seem terrible at first that leads to innovation. So if you're not getting those kinds of terrible ideas, I guess that's a good way of kind of seeing that you haven't got psychological safety, because people don't feel safe sharing them, or playing around or kind of, you know, experimenting. So I think those are some of the signs. I do feel that people have been honest, are able to speak up and be honest. I mean, you can look at your meetings, for example. And I guess this is not always a sign of psychological safety. But it can be one of the things to look out for when you're running your meetings and our people speaking up? And does it feel like an environment where people do feel that they can speak up without getting, you know, any kind of pushback, or, you know, being blamed for getting something wrong, or made to feel stupid? Jenny:This is so interesting, because presumably, if it takes a lot of self reflection, maybe and self awareness on behalf of an agency, or agency leader, for example, to recognise that, and maybe it's the middle management, maybe that spot what's happening as a dynamic. And to that point, can you talk to us when an agency comes to you, someone from an agency, who typically comes to you? And what kind of sort of symptoms do they explain to you as to why they think they need to address their team culture? Alison:Yeah. Well, do you know what Jenny, this is super interesting. And this is something that I've discovered over the past couple of years through looking at who comes to me, I mean, first of all, it depends on the size of the agency, but often, it is like an agency leader, that comes to me. I find that the teams or the agencies that are really in trouble, I don't see them, because they don't know what they don't know. They don't know that, you know, it's likely that they haven't even registered that culture is something that is important to focus on, or they've completely dismissed it or something. And they think that it's a luxury and something not necessarily the teams that come to me, they're already on their way to exploring or looking at a team culture, I often tend to work. I mean, I've had it on my website that I work with forward thinking teams, because I really think that the people that come to me are the people that are already doing a lot right. And they want to know, how do we keep this going? We're growing, things are changing, how do we make sure that we maintain our culture because they already see how important it is. Or they might be at the kind of early stages of that they're starting to kind of come around to the idea that we need to spend a little bit of time and resource on our culture. So I don't really, I can't really say that I kind of see people that have, like, you know, like you say the symptoms, but it's, you know, it's usually all the kind of things that we want to make sure that people feel included. You want to become more collaborative and want to run our meetings better. So yeah, there's, it's usually kind of towards the other end.  Jenny:That's so interesting, isn't it? It's almost like I can't tell you that this input is important, you almost have to decided it's important, and then look for some help in how to make it better. Alison:Definitely, yeah. And I think, you know, it's not like you sit around the self awareness, this is not easy work. And, you know, there are all kinds of things that you can do to get things going and to start things off, which will make an impact. But actually, the self awareness, you know, if you've got a leader that all of a sudden realises that their meetings aren't a place where people can speak up, that does take kind of like an admission that maybe I'm not running these meetings in the most effective way, which is like a self criticism, which, you know, some people aren't ready for. Jenny:How do you think the whole situation with COVID and this global pandemic where we’ve all had to work remotely? What effect do you think that's had on generally across the board on Team culture? Alison:Massive impact. I think if people weren't thinking about it before, they're definitely thinking about it. Now. People have really seen I mean, in the conversations that I've had, and people have really seen the connection and engagement piece, but how do we stay connected as a team? And we're not sitting next to each other? And, and yeah, meetings, online meetings in meetings, but how do we run our meetings to make them more engaging, and we make the best use of our time? I think, you know, again, one of the things that I was, was quite interesting at the start of pandemic, you know, this was something that none of us had experienced before. I was kind of looking around at teams and thinking is the stuff that I've been doing with teams over these years, is it relevant in these times? Does it work? Is it you know, is it going to hold up, so I was kind of, you know, just observing and seeing what was going on. But one of the things that I remember and quite distinctive, it started with pandemic was, you know, there was kind of like that initial rush to get everyone working from home. So everyone focused on like the tech and that, can we work from home, and there was this kind of like, wave of zoom screenshots on LinkedIn, of like, you know, people with, you know, maybe with the silly hats on or, you know, showing we’re all working from home, we can all do it, we can all work from Zoom. And sort of like thinking, it's great that you've been able to get on Zoom. But that's not culture. That's not team culture. Team culture actually happens in between those zoom meetings. And so I think there was kind of a, I think, a realisation of what culture really is. And not just kind of people feeling good and happy. And the kind of, you know, the Friday night down the pub, and it's really all of everything, and all the stuff that we can't see as well, and how people feel about their work. Jenny:Give us a few examples of what good looks like.  Alison:Good looks like,  I've spoken about a lot of it. Good looks like anybody being able to say, this isn't working in the way that we work together, let's improve it. It looks like anybody within a team standing up and saying, I would like to improve this within our culture. But what can we do together? It means somebody in a team. I mean, I talk a lot about facilitation. And I think that's really key to meeting. So for me and ideal, this doesn't always happen. But an ideal is anybody been able to facilitate those meetings and all of those meetings being productive, and the best use of everyone's time. It looks like a team, like if you were to ask a team, that what is it that you're working towards? Everyone would be 100%, super clear. And it looks like a team being aware of the value of their teammates and their team members understanding everyone else's contributions as well as their own and having empathy to how people work differently. Yeah, there's a mixture of things. I mean, I could go on forever, really. But yeah, it's like a resilient team, you know, that how well does a team stand up, like if something changes within the team, it could be a pandemic. I mean, we've kind of experienced that now. But how resilient is a team that how does a team kind of bounce back quickly? Or how does the team kind of rally round and support each other through that? So those are those are the kinds of things that I look for in cultures, team culture. Jenny: if someone's listening to this, and thinking, oh, my goodness, I'm a leader in a business. And I believe that we've got a bit of a problem. I don't see people standing up and presenting ideas. I don't see people being quite bold in their thoughts and being able to express themselves, where do you even start? Like, what can you give us a few tips for someone listening to think what they could do about it? Alison:Um, so again, it depends on sort of what stage you're at, like things are really broken, and obviously you need to kind of address it more sensitively. So in that case, I might suggest like one to one conversations with team members and anonymous survey and those kinds of things to kind of gather thoughts and feedback and that actually listening to that feedback, not kind of dismissing it because you don't agree with it or it kind of sounds quite threatening, but actually really listening to it and taking it to heart and then looking at what can change. In a team where you can start to have those conversations have an open conversation about like, what's, what's not working for us? And what is working? And where do we want to be as a team, and therefore, how can we get there. Again, that kind of takes a certain level of connection within the team already in place, because people need to trust it, and trust that it's going to lead to something. But starting small is super key, like the worst thing is to kind of make these massive promises that everything's gonna change, and then not be able to live up to that promise, because a big part of this is behaviour change, behaviour of the leader and people in the team as well. So making sure that whatever you kind of at least start with is a kind of a small shift. So you know, starting with our weekly meeting, and how can we improve that? How can we make our weekly meeting more collaborative and more inclusive and working on that over a period of time and seeing the shift. And see the shift in that weekly team meeting you can start seeing the shift up in other places, as well as building up the momentum to kind of try new things. Because the team would have seen that actually, they set up meetings weren't working, they were involved in figuring out what makes what will make that meeting work. And then they started to see those changes actually take place. And they can feel the difference. Jenny:It's such great tips, such great advice. Recently, I heard of an agency who had been listening to their team, which is great, as you say, and the feedback was, we're having too many internal meetings, everyone Xoomed out, they're exhausted, and they wanted some control back on their diaries. So they decided to have a no internal meetings day, a week, you know, and what else? Have you seen other examples of little initiatives that have been helpful to teams? Alison:In the pandemic, one of the things that I've seen and I’d advised teams on, and I've seen teams doing this as well, is making space for the social connection. And because we don't have that now, do we, we don't have the kind of we can just walk over someone's desk and ask them a question or say, let's kind of take a coffee break together. So actually making this up being intentional and making a space for that. I've heard of some teams using a there's like a little plugin on Slack called Donut, which randomly pairs people for coffee. And so there's that the social connection, and what else is there? What else have I seen, um, so the no meeting days are something that I've seen as well. One team that I've worked with actually gave the example of giving everybody and got rotating the responsibility of doing a little activity at the start of a team meeting, which was a fun activity. And everybody had responsibility in there kind of, in turn to do that to kind of involve them. And to kind of surprise the team. Also, what else have I seen? And Gosh, lots of things. And I think also very simple. I mean, personally, I've seen leaders investing in this more so actually getting external facilitators like myself to work with their teams to have these kinds of conversations when teams haven't done that before, you know, so that can make a difference. I mean, there's a lot of follow up to be done after that. So the workshop in itself is not the kind of, you know, check, we've done it. Actually, it's the kind of the start of a conversation, I've seen much more of that and much more sort of leaders willing to invest in like away days, and like team discussions and those kinds of things to talk about how they work together, as well Jenny:See, that would make total sense to me that you get someone in externally to conduct that, yeah, it might take a, you know, a certain amount of humility, because you don't know what you're going to find out. But I would have thought that a third party people would be much more likely to open up and presumably they do to you? Alison:They do and I mean, on that as well as I am, you know, obviously I do facilitation as an external person, and I see the value of it. And I do see the kind of value of having someone from the outside be able to spot that my aim with teams at the same time is eventually for them to be able to do that themselves. Because I don't think that these kinds of conversations and discussions should be reserved as a special thing. And I think that this is how people should be running their meetings, they should be open, they should be collaborative, there should be a space where people feel that they can be honest and constructive and kind of problem solve together. So at the same time, as you know, I do see the value in every now and again, getting some kind of external facilitator in to support those discussions, especially if a team has never done it before, because a facilitator knows how to handle those dynamics. But encouraging a team to have those discussions more frequently and eventually take responsibility for the facilitation themselves. Jenny:I love that it's almost, it's much better to make that investment to almost course correct the agency and then give them the tools and the skills to carry on. I love that. Where do you see this evolving? What kind of trends are you seeing for the future? Is this just gonna carry on being something that we invest time in? Alison:I hope so. I mean, I have, since I've started the business, I've definitely seen a shift in the way in the recognition of the importance of team culture has accelerated in the last few months, in terms of kind of like the complete end of the scale where I hope teams will get to. Where I really want to see teams get into is that they do take responsibility, like everybody on the team takes responsibility for the culture. So it is like a kind of self evolving, self sustaining continuously developing team culture, rather than it kind of being seen as something that you do once and then it's kind of done. And the reason I see that happening is because change is, it's I mean, change is normal now, we should expect change. And a team needs to be able to kind of take themselves through those changes. I mean, it's great if you can bring an external person in. But what's much more powerful is if the team themselves have the skills to be able to kind of adapt and respond to what changes happening around them. So that's where I hope team culture is going in that it becomes much more natural part of the work conversation, we're not just focusing on the output, and what it is that we need to create. But we're also having conversations about how we get there together. Jenny:I think this is fantastic. I've got a question for you. With the way we've been working recently, particularly agencies, obviously, this is really super relevant, where you have a team that you want to enhance the way they work and be more productive, be more collaborative. What about if agencies now are getting more freelance talent now and again, for different projects, bringing in teams from around the world? Because now we've opened up the market to the world, haven't we? Working on projects together. Do you have any advice or thoughts around how to do that efficiently? When it's just more about maybe, you know, short term contracts with people. Alison:Yeah, I mean, to be honest, this is where Bracket started, Bracket started off as an agency that brought together freelance talent. And that's where all of these concepts that I've kind of, and these this methodology in this framework, it's evolved out of that through the knowledge of like what it takes to bring independent experts together into short term teams. And, you know, because they're working together in over a short period, they need to kind of perform well, quickly, right. So and it's all of the same principles just intensified. And, you know, get the team together, get everyone in the team together from the start, whether they're freelancer, whether internal, get the whole team generating that, how they're going to work together, and what they're going to work together on that. What's the what's the final idea, make it collaborative from the start and keep everyone involved. And so that everyone's got a bit of ownership over how the project goes, rather than kind of coming in and doing a little bit that they can only see. You know, their part, they need to be able to see the bigger picture. And so, that's exactly what I was doing when I first started Bracket, which was like bringing these things together. No matter what their kind of discipline was getting everyone together at the start of a project, having a discussion about like, you know, this is what the client wants. This is the skills that we have on the team, but what can we do? What does it look like? And how are we going to work together to make that happen? And I mean, I mean, this is a long time ago now. But I remember, this is how I started facilitating, because I didn't really do facilitation before that. I just remember, like all of those sessions, the freelancers enjoyed it so much, because they were kind of, they felt much more part of the project rather than kind of being handed a piece, and that they would take away do and then and then kind of deliver. Jenny:It just feels like such a no brainer, doesn't it? Alison:It does. Yeah, it does. I've been talking about it for ages. And I think for me, you know, I know, there's lots of complexities involved within companies and agencies and teams and organisations. At the same time, I think that if we kind of kept it simple, which is, you know, how do we get great people together to do great work? That's what we want, right? And we would kind of probably make it a lot easier on ourselves. Jenny:Absolutely. And you want to get it right first time, don't you, because time is money. And the longer they have to work, you know, over and above the original brief. It's just costing anyone money. So it's just it's absolutely no brainer. It's been fantastic the amount of information you've shared with us. And the insight you've provided is great. I know you have a team culture programme, which obviously you've been iterating over years. So it's now probably a well oiled programme with all of your experience. Can you tell us a bit about that?  Alison:Yeah, so the programme is almost like a combination of everything that I know and do and have done with teams over the years. So it's a mixture of like facilitation, ie, getting the team together to create ideas. Figure out like, you know, what it is that they're working towards, what their team purpose is, all that kind of stuff, as well as training. So this idea of ensuring that teams have the skills to kind of sustain this and so teaching them things like facilitation and how they would have conversations about designing new ways of working together, and as well as team coaching as well because every team is unique. There's no kind of like cookie cutter approach for you know, making a team work. A team culture depends on who's in it, what they're working on the nature of their work, and what that team looks like together, the environment that they're working within, so that the coaching addresses the specific issues for that specific team. And it's a mixture of all of that stuff. So yeah, training, facilitation, coaching, consultancy, and to get a team to a level where not only do they know what they're working on, they know their culture, they know their identity, but they've got the tools and the skills to kind of sustain that if any changes happen, or someone joins a team, someone leaves, if they face any challenge together as a team as well. Jenny:I can imagine that it's not only an effective process to go through, but also a fun process. Alison:I should hope so. Yeah, I would say that it's fun to work with me. But yeah,, the thing is with this as well, is that, you know, I've learned a lot. As you say, I've been doing this for quite a while. And I've learned a lot about teams and kind of, you know, evolved my thinking around it. And I think when I first started doing this, I was so focused on collaboration, and you know, the team as a unit, and I kind of I wouldn't say that I forgot about, but I didn't really see the relevance of the individuals within the team. It sounds bizarre, but I was kind of looking at the team as a whole rather than the individuals in the team. And then it kind of dawned on me that if you want a team to perform well, together, then those individuals need to perform well, individually, right? They need to be self aware, they need to kind of know where their opportunities for development are, they need to know how they fit into the kind of collective goal of the team. So you kind of need to work on those two levels. So the programme kind of works with a team in terms of the dynamics of all of those people coming together, but also works with the individuals to ensure that they are engaged and connected and you know, their areas of development that's been focused on in terms of how do they contribute to the to the bigger picture. Jenny:Makes total sense. What are the first few steps that you take when you start working with an agency? Alison:And so as an assessment, there's lots of kind of interviews and kind of where are you now and I’ve actually designed a bit of an assessment, which is on my website, and just about to be released, actually. So it kind of helps teams to figure out what stage they're at, whether they need to fix their cultural overlay to build it when they need to sustain it. But anyway, you know, after that, it's like a five minute quiz. And there's more investigation into that, what are the actual dynamics in the team? What do people in the team feel like the priorities are to address or fix or improve or work on and then we'll set up a plan around that. So there's the five pillars of the programme, which are the kind of things that I've learned, that are important for high performing teams, but then there's all the pieces in between, which is where the team gets to really address the issues based on their own specific culture. Jenny:Sounds like a really useful tool, we certainly put the link to your website, because I think even if it's not live yet, when someone listens to this, I'm sure by the time they listen, it'll, it'll be live. How do you get inspired, Alison? Who do you follow? What kind of sources of inspiration do you go to? Alison:I'm always reading and I do sort of, you know, I've got some Google Alerts set up for things like collaboration and creativity, you know, I get a lot of inspiration from, sounds really boring, but I get a lot of inspiration from academic papers. I really love reading and you know, kind of like research papers on meetings and the connection to wellbeing and how to, you know, increase creativity and productivity and the value of facilitation. So I get a lot of inspiration from those kinds of those kinds of studies. Yeah, I mean, I love hearing about teams that feel that they're doing good work and kind of seeing examples of things that they're putting in place to get inspiration. I think one thing that's important is that, you know, you may see something work in one team culture, and you can take inspiration from it, but it's may not work for you in exactly in that exact same way. And you may need to kind of adapt it. So I do like kind of reading about teams and what they're doing and sort of what they've learned as well. And so yeah, and I've got like a stack of books behind me that I need to get as well. Jenny: You're probably one of the most well read people I know. And it was clear from your talk that you did, I mean, it was just bam, bam, bam with all these statistics, and it was just, you know, it's evidence based, everything that you talk about is evidence based. So I think it's really, really powerful. If someone's listening to this, who ideally is the ideal person that you think you can help the most, like, who would you want to contact you? And how would they do that?  Alison: Yeah, I think anybody that's got responsibility for a team and is able to invest resources in you know, their development, essentially. So whether that's kind of a middle manager within a larger organisation or a senior leader within a smaller agency, although I'm happy to talk to anybody to be honest. Like I you know, sometimes I go in and I do kind of, you know, coaching with people that want to learn to facilitate more effectively, for people. I mean, one of the things that I feel quite passionate about, as well as obviously, from a business point of view, certain people that are able to kind of invest in what I do, but I'm also really passionate about helping people that work within teams. It might not be at that level, but really concede that there's things they can improve. And they've got like a real passion to make their working environment and their team's working environment better. So if you're one of those people, then feel free to get in touch because I always like talking to people like you as well. And you can go to my website bracketcreative.co.uk or find me on LinkedIn - Alison Coward. Jenny:Fantastic. Have you got any final pieces of advice for anyone listening to this about teen culture? Alison:And yeah, I mean, I think I said it before, but start small. You know, this is I think, you know, you can feel very passionate about improving team culture. And I think that's great. Like, definitely, if you're in the stage where you think like, this is something we want to work on and, but be realistic about what it takes for people to change their behaviour. Like it's not instant. It is, you know, something that you will work on over time and hopefully continue to work on. So I'm taking like a small first step, just to get the ball rolling, just to get buy in, just to get people feeling a bit motivated, that change can happen and then then go from there. Jenny:Thank you. That's great advice. I love talking to you, Alison. You can see in your eyes how passionate you are about this subject. So I hope people will get in touch and benefit from your services. Thank you so much for joining us. Alison: Thanks for having me.

Transcript:Jenny: Welcome to Episode 12. Now, this episode is a solo episode, and it's all about growing existing business and existing accounts. So this episode really is for you if you are an agency account director or an account manager in the role for a few years, and it's your responsibility to grow that business to grow your client business, and to expand the account and to grow those relationships. Now, this has come up because many of my students, the people that work with me, often have questions like, how can I grow my account without coming across as salesy or pushy and compromising my client relationships? Or what do I need to do? So the client sees me as someone that brings value, because at the moment, they just see us as very transactional. Some people ask me about asking for referrals, we all know it's a lucrative thing to do. And it's a very smart thing to do. But how do you actually ask without coming across as salesy? And what questions should I be asking my client to really understand their business to uncover business problems? And how do I sell without being inauthentic and really having a client centric approach? And do I need to be more assertive without putting my clients off? So these are some of the questions that I'm asked all the time about selling to existing clients. And that's the reason why I've decided to put together a series of podcasts around growing existing business. And the key really here is having a client centric approach, and ensuring that you continue to add value to your clients. So in this episode, we're going to be looking at the different value levels that you can give to your clients, and what skills you need to deliver those that add value.  Why is it important to retain and grow our existing clients?So let's step back for a moment and just ask ourselves, why is it important to retain and grow our existing clients? Well, there's a number of statistics on online, some of them you may already be familiar with. But some of the really standout ones is, quite frankly, it's cheaper to grow your existing clients. So according to the Harvard Business Review, it's anything from five to 25 times more expensive to go out and get new business. And when you think about it, the cost of pitching is huge. And that's often where we stand a one in four chance of winning the actual business. So it's a huge investment. So it's cheaper to grow the existing account, because they're already familiar with us, and we already understand their business. It's also more profitable. Now, according to Bain and Company, if you increase your retention rate of a client by 5%, it can increase the profit margins by between 25 and 95%. So again, retaining your existing business is much more profitable. There's also a study by Gartner that says, 80% of your future sales come from 20% of your existing clients. Now, that is quite an eye opening statistic. So if we are thinking about that, then we really do need to be nurturing, and adding value to these existing clients.  Now, there was a study by Gartner in 2019, that really looked at why accounts don't grow. And the really interesting statistic that came out of that was that, although there's a belief among the account management fraternity that exceptional service leads to account growth, it's proven not to be true. Exceptional service delivery leads to retention, for sure, but it doesn't necessarily lead to growth. And the findings from that study concluded that what you need to grow an account is to have what they call customer improvement conversations. And if you are having those customer improvement conversations, then it can increase your account by 48%, and increase the likelihood of renewal or retention by 94%. So increasing your ability to grow an account by 48% is really huge. And so we really should be paying attention to what does a customer improvement conversation really mean? Customer Improvement ConversationsSo the study defined a customer improvement conversation as three core things. The first thing is to provide customers or clients with a unique critical perspective. Now, when you think about that you think about, you know, that could create some tension in your client relationship. If you are providing something unique, and something critical to maybe what they're doing already. But this really is going to move the needle for them, because they're going to suddenly see you differently and see you as someone that can add a huge amount of value, because then you are showing them something that perhaps they hadn't seen before. Point two was for you to paint a vision of your customers future business, which means you need to be ahead of the curve looking at trends, looking at the future of their business, so that you can spot opportunities for them to capitalise on, or also avoid challenges that may be coming down the line. And then three to provide customers with a return on the investment. Return on investment on the entirety of your relationship. So what I'm going to do now is to talk you through the four levels of client value, and the skills you need to deliver value at each of those levels. Level one - Deliver a quality serviceSo the first level of value that we can give to our clients is to deliver a quality service. And this skill you need to deliver a quality service at this level is to really have an understanding of what your agency does, and a technical understanding of all the services that you deliver. So you will be, for example, you'll be able to link a client problem to an existing client case study in the past where you can cite examples of where you've helped other clients in the past. You'll also have a really good understanding of your client’s internal processes, and particularly their sign off and approval processes, so that you can make sure that you're aligning your processes to them. You'll also understand the difference between your high value products and services, and your low value services. So, for example, if you are a full service agency that does brand strategy, then perhaps a brand strategy workshop is very high value, to do an execution of an ad is low value. So the idea, the concept, the strategy, is very high value, you can usually charge more for it. And understanding the difference between strategy and execution is key. Another example would be perhaps you're an app developer. So it's low value, the actual execution of an app or delivering an app. But actually, if you are consulting with your clients at a very top level, then maybe you're talking to them about their general digital transformation, and their digital strategy. And the app is an execution of what their desired outcome is. So understanding what your own services are in terms of high value and low value is a great starting point. Similarly, you can, at this level, understand how the agency works in terms of processes. So when you're in front of clients, you really have a good idea if a project comes up of how to execute that project and how to deliver that project seamlessly, to ensure that it gets delivered on time and on budget. And you also have a thorough understanding of how to scope a project, how our cost estimate works, how our purchase order works, how our timing schedule works. So it's all the nuts and bolts, the technical understanding of how you deliver a quality service on time on budget. And that is level one, in terms of what our clients expect from us in terms of value. Level two - Deliver an exceptional client experienceLevel two value is not only do you deliver a high quality service, but you also deliver an exceptional client experience. And in order to operate at this level to value, you not only understand your services and processes and how they fit in with the client, but you also understand how to manage the relationship with the client and deliver greater service to go over and above. So, in order to do this, you probably would have done some kind of relationship mapping exercise. So you understand all of the clients, the client side, who is involved in the decision making process at the client side, and who's it important for you to establish relationship with. You also understand your own client context pain points, and how they're measured. How are they measured? What are their KPIs, and also you understand their challenges, both internally and externally. So you're always looking to identify areas that you can add value and help them solve their problems. You may have a little, what I call a fuzzy file, a fuzzy file is taking a note of any particular details about the client that will be worth you understanding, a new remembering, so that you can create that rapport with your clients. So for example, if they support a football team, then make a note of that. So you can ask them, the next time you see them, you know, is your team playing this weekend, for example, or maybe they mentioned the name of their son or daughter, and you can repeat it back the next time you speak and say, ‘I remember that you had to disappear to take your son to school, how is Simon?’ You know, using people's names is always really a good way of making sure that they know that you're paying attention, and that you really are interested in them, not only their role, their pain, their role in the business, but also on a personal level.In order to understand and operate at a level two value level, then you also you have a very thorough internal client experience, process from the moment that your client joins you. And you have an onboarding process, but all the way through the relationship, so you know what the touch points are. You know, the level of value each point in that relationship, you are consistent, because what this helps to do is to manage your client expectations, and to make sure that their experience of working with you is consistent. Because if you think about it, if they want to maybe refer you to someone else, then they need to make sure that you are going to deliver the same high level of value and experience that they've come to know you for. So making sure that internally you have a very, very clearly defined client experience process. Level three - Understand the business outcomesNow moving on to level three value. So for a client, if you are offering level three value, not only do you offer a high quality service, you not only deliver an exceptional client experience, but you also understand the business outcomes that the client is trying to achieve. And you align your services to help them achieve them. And the client has a return on investment for the relationship. So if you are operating at level three value, you are not only doing everything that we've already discussed, but you're also regularly diagnosing the client, that and their business, to uncover opportunities for you to really make a difference to their bottom line for you to make them money, save them money, save them time, reduce costs, and all of these business outcomes that clients work with us for. So you will understand how to ask the right questions at the right time in the right way to uncover the business outcomes and the business objectives that the client is trying to achieve. You're also researching. So there shouldn't be a client question that you asked that you couldn’t be looking up on Google before you actually get to the client office. So make sure that you really fully understand the client business. And that is typically, you know, looking at the client's website, following the company Chairman online, following all of your client contacts on social and having a Google Alert set up for your company, the company name, maybe the product, maybe the competitor products. And if you're working with a listed company that's on a stock exchange, then you can also look at resources like Seeking Alpha, where you can actually download the C suite transcripts of some of their meetings, and their investor meetings where they're talking about where they're headed, where the company is going, what their long term visions or what their yearly plan is, what their strategic imperatives are. And you can really get a great understanding. So you can actually download those transcripts for free and read them really to understand the company at a very, very senior level. You might also talk to their clients and customers. So you might join focus groups, you might generate some unique first party data to understand their client customer. And customers, you may be doing some kind of listening study to understand more about what their needs are and how their needs are changing. Or you might be talking to other departments within your client company to get their perspective on where the growth areas are in the business and where the challenges are. So for example, if you are dealing with the marketing department, then you may ask to talk to their head of sales, or even go out on the road with one of their sales reps if they're still doing face to face selling. So, really having the skill you need to operate a level three is a level of business acumen and a real thirst to understand the client business from a business perspective, and understanding what they want to achieve. What are the value drivers? How are they, what next year are they focusing their energy and their budget on, and who owns that problem and who owns that challenge to address. So you will be asking for their marketing plans or operational plans. And you understand where their focus is, and what the important issues are for them as a business. Because where you become more valuable is where you really understand, not just thinking about yourself, it's not thinking about your services, it's thinking about their business and how you can add value. And you can share insights. Level four – Future value creationSo I hope this is useful so far. And finally, we're moving on to level four value. So level four value is where you do all of the things we've discussed, this isn't one or the other, this is actually building on the skills that you already have. But level four value is about future value creation. So the skill you need is to be a strategic thinker. Future value creation simply means that you are looking ahead of where the client is currently, and you are spotting opportunities for them to capitalise on, or you're identifying challenges where you can help them avoid. So in order to, the skills you need at this level really are to be looking at the environment, to be situationally aware, to be reading about trends, to look at competitive landscape, to be a lot more consultative, to be very proactive in generating ideas of where you think that the client needs to be aware, and what's your point of view, in terms of how you are going to help them solve these problems or capitalise on opportunities. And there was a study done several years ago, and it was led by Tim Williams from Ignition Consulting Group, and he's a pricing strategist for agencies. And there was a big study, it was global, and it was between agencies and clients. And one of the questions that was asked was, Why do you, why do you let go of an agency? And the client said, because they never gave us anything that we didn't ask for. And I think sometimes in agency life, we believe that because we are delivering good value quality service, that that's good enough. But unfortunately, our competitors are waiting in the wings to help our clients solve their biggest problems and challenges. And if we are continuing to be reactive to briefs and just deliver good service, it's no longer enough. So yeah, if you're operating a level four you are, you've got an analytical mind, you're looking at trends. And a little tip here is I think trends. You know, you can google what trends there are, both in your business, but also how they relate to the client's business. So for example, if you look at management consultancy websites, they tend to have a lot of people that are part of these generations of reports. So PriceWaterhouseCooper,s Accenture, McKinsey, Ernst and Young, Bain and Company are just a handful of those websites that you can refer to, because often they publish reports about different market segments. So there may be segments in the market, and there certainly have been recently ,that you can look at to identify maybe what the customer trends are, what the market trends are, what's changing, what you know, a lot of people have been talking about digital transformation this year, particularly in 2020. So we you know what, what is changing for your client and what can you bring to their attention. Think about the customer insight that you can find out that your client didn't know. Think about the market trends that you can find out more about and help educate your client. And I think education is huge. If you are looking to grow your existing accounts, because anything that you can educate your client on, is going to stand you in good stead for being positioned more as a trusted adviser, rather than an order taker.  So I hope these four level of levels of value, and the four sets of skills that I think are really important in order to deliver that value, has been useful. And this is step one, all about a value ladder in my Account Accelerator Programme. My Account Accelerator Programme has been running since 2016. It is for you if you're an agency account manager with at least two to three years experience, if you’re an account director and you have to be responsible for existing client growth. It's a three month programme, it's weekly calls. And I literally give you the tools, techniques, strategies, and you end up with a plan after that 90 days in how you can grow your existing accounts. Account Accelerator ProgrammeSo there are nine steps. And the first step is the value ladder, which we've just briefly discussed, where we actually sit down and develop relevant ideas for you to proactively take to your clients. So you're definitely increase the client's perception of value for your role and your services. The next step is relationship mapping, where you will ultimately save time by focusing your account growth actions, on the right opportunities, the right clients, because otherwise, it's a scattergun approach, where, and I know this is one of the push backs that a lot of agency account managers say, I don't have time, I don't have time. So we need to make sure that you are spending your time in the right areas. The next step of the Account Accelerator Programme is client diagnosis. And this is where you'll increase your confidence in client interactions, and ask the right questions to uncover the right growth opportunities. And I give you a framework for asking those questions. The next step is referrals blueprint, and this is where you'll ultimately feel really comfortable about asking for referrals. Referrals are really, really important in terms of growing your existing accounts. And statistically, according to an Agencynomics report, 30% of growth comes from your clients referring you to others, or leaving the client company and taking you with them. So in order to master referrals, it's really important that we are able to say them in the right way, and ask for them in the right way. The next step in the Account Accelerator Programme is all about client stories. So you'll increase your client's receptiveness to your suggestions and ideas, because part of interacting with clients is making sure that you are proposing ideas in the right way, without any resistance from your client. The next step is all about client experience. And you will ultimately reduce your uncertainty of which growth strategy is right for which client. So we literally give you a toolbox of strategies and tactics to use for growth. And the next few steps are your authority builder. So we'll make sure that you raise your personal profile. And so that you're interacting with your clients in the right way, not just in person, but also online. Your risk management is the next step. So risk management is all about how to reduce the client relationship risk, because the last thing we want to do is make all this effort to develop our client relationships when ultimately, we also need to be mitigating the risk against losing them. And then finally, we pull everything together into a practical, short, usable client growth plan.  One of the things that I hear time and time again, from account managers account directors is that they have a plan for growth, a client development plan, but it's so unwieldy and so huge, that frankly, they don't use it and it gets left on their desk. So if you would like some more information about the Account Accelerator Programme, there's limited numbers. We're kicking off in January, on January the 12th 2021. And there are going to be different account managers and account directors from different agencies who are very enthusiastic. They want to accelerate their career. They want to be able to add more value to their existing clients, and they don't want to be coming across as salesy, but ultimately, they are responsible for account growth. So if this sounds like you then please get in touch. It's jenny @accountmanagementskills.com or send me a message on LinkedIn. It's Jenny Plant. So I hope you found this valuable. I'd love to hear from you. And I will see you on the next episode.

Transcript:Jenny: So today I'm delighted to have Bill Wallsgrove, who is a bit of a guru I'd say in the branding world. He has over 30 years experience helping companies with branding. And now he helps agencies established their brands. And that's particularly one of the reasons I wanted to invite him along today was to talk a little bit more about this. Bill has such an impressive background that I struggled to pick out some key points in his career to kind of highlight, but there are a couple of things. One, you were Creative Director for Coley Porter Bell and also Future Bands. Obviously, run your own branding consultancy for many, many years. And you have a lot of experience both in paint and branding beers. And some of the names are Heineken, Budweiser, Pils. You've also worked on Benetton, B&Q, and I'm sure hundreds of others. You also run workshops for agencies to establish their brand. And you're also a university lecturer, I don't know where you find the time to do that. Is if that wasn't enough, you also advise agencies. So you sit on the board of a couple of agencies, one of which is Studio Blup as non-exec. So Bill, welcome to the show. I'm really delighted to have someone with such experience here. So thank you for joining me. Bill: Thank you. That's just a great introduction. And I feel like it's like if I was on stage, I'd say, Hello, London town! Jenny:  You can still say that. But I will always say, would you mind spending a couple of minutes first of all, just kind of filling in the gaps to your background and experience? Bill: Yeah, well, it's interesting what you say, I'm not a university lecturer. I'm a visiting lecturer at several art colleges, universities, and one of the lectures I give is all about personal branding. And personal branding is really to help some third year students think about how they brand themselves to go out to the world, how they launch themselves, how they celebrate their differences and their unique qualities. And one of the slides I put up is saying, ‘where I never knew that I'd be where I am now 30 years ago’, because you know, here am I now a brand consultant, specialising in digital strategy for agencies. And talking about personal branding, talking about colour theory. These are not things I started out doing. When I kind of left school, I went to art college, to be a graphic designer. And that was a pretty difficult choice because I also was offered a place to do history, which is my other passion, at University. Well, I told my father, I said, Look, I'm not going to take the history place. I'm gonna go to art school he said, and I've used this adage before, he said, you know, go to art school, you'll never get a career out of that. Also it's, it's it's sex, drugs and rock and roll. I said, Dad, you just sold it to me.Brilliant account management. So yeah, I went to art school and thought I wanted to go into advertising. In fact, I did, I spent, after I left art school, I went to the creative department at Ogilvy and Mather.And I was there for about three or four months, I really didn't like advertising. I didn't like being in a creative department that had no contact with the clients. And I was talking to friends about it. And they said, Well, you ought to go work, maybe for more branding agency. And you know, you're not stuck in advertising. I then went to work for a very small agency before I joined Coley Porter Bell and really enjoyed it because with a small agency, you were both creating, and also presenting your work to clients. And I began to realise my passion was not just about the creative work itself, but also being passionate about explaining why the creative solutions, right from clients, I began to enjoy talking about why creativity, creativity mattered. And I went on to be creative director at Coley Porter Bell. And I was stopped one day by my managing director who said, and she was a very bright woman, she said, you know, Bill, I think you're wasted in the studio. And I thought I'd been told off, you know, you know, you're no good. And she actually didn't mean that as well. She said, you're much more valuable to us selling design to our clients, than you are actually being stuck on the drawing board as it was then and then the computer. And I began to think about so I went back and told my wife this and she said, Oh yeah, she's right. You know, you're passionate about your subjects and obviously, you know, she’d seen when I've been out with friends at dinner parties and describing the latest projects, I'm working on how passionate I was about. And so I kind of moved from being a creative to by default, being a sort of client manager, if you like and managing fairly large accounts at the time, which included things like Dulux Paint, Holsten Pils, which is where the beer and paint thing started. And several other brands like Nestle and Unilever and retail brands like Tesco and began to become really interested in, then I started reading up about the theories of branding realising that I couldn't just talk about design, I had to talk about why design worked for business. So then began to read books like The Big Idea and, and Fishing in the Deep Water and several other books, which were all about how brands have to differentiate themselves and it's interesting Coley Porter Bell was a great place to sort of start my career because it was a strategic design agency, which was one of the sort of pioneers in the 90s actually talking about strategy and design. Which is why in the end they were bought by WPP, because Martin Sorrell could see that see what capable trying to do had a very close link to what his agencies were doing. So ironically, I started working with Ogilvy and Mather again. You can't get rid of it. So since then, is it okay to carry on? So since then, after WPP bought Coley Porter Bell, I didn't like being in the larger agency group to be fair. And that's when I then broke away and formed my first agency. When I say formed, I didn't, it was an existing product design company. But I joined it as a partner to introduce graphics and branding, its product design. And that was particularly important for new product development, particularly when you're doing beer brands where you’re both creating brand new bottle shapes, which is the product design part, but also creating the branding. And of course, the bottle shape is part of the branding there. It's what we use called 2D and 3D means 60. It's the kind of it's how it comes together. So became passionate about new product development. And obviously, the branding as part of that. We had that for about eight years before we sold that to Interpublic, which is the McCann Erickson agency, we then sort of sidled up alongside McCann Erickson. And again, I realised I didn't like being part of an agency group. And that was my kind of, I guess it was my kind of midlife crisis, as I never really want to work for anyone ever again, I quite enjoyed running my own agency. So that's what I should be doing. So ever since then, I've had several other consultancies. But now I'm an independent brand consultant.I think somebody described you know, the hitting 40 moment as being you want to only work for yourself, means that you've decided you're unemployable, which I think was probably what I meant. Because I was too opinionated. Jenny: There’s nothing wrong with that, Bill. There's so much that I want to dive into. And before I start asking my questions that I've kind of established, I want to pick up on something you said about strategic design. And I talk a lot to agency account managers about talking the language of the C suite, you know, talking the language of business outcomes. And I would just love your thoughts. If you can explain to me, how do you, perhaps you don't need to, but how can you convince the C suite? That design has a place at the table, that it's going to actually make a difference to the bottom line? Bill: It's a good point, I guess it's why almost all projects that I've been involved in for the last 15 years always start with a brand workshop, which is actually when you sit around table, with all the key stakeholders and work out what's the current status of the business? What's the current status of the brand? What are the things we need to do which define what the communication creative briefs should be? Because obviously, a design is only as good as the brief. But of course, everything is designed. You know, you can't say design isn't at the table. Because there's nothing that isn't designed, everything we see around us is designed by somebody. Because design doesn't just mean drawing, design from the dictionary term means problem solving. So design doesn't mean you have to actually draw something design means you have to solve a design. Scientists use design to solve things like creating a vaccine, you know, the brief was, how are you going to create something which is going to attack this particular virus? And what are the solutions? So it's design and through experiments, you come up with the right answer. But why strategic design, which I think is more key to your question, is if strategy really means, you know, very basic marketing means, what are you trying to sell? Who’re you trying to communicate to where do they gather? What do you want them to do? What's the call for action? It's very simple. It's why I almost hate the word digital marketing is because it's all marketing, it's selling to people. And it's knowing, you know, you've got to motivate people, you've got to provide them with information and stuff, which is going to engage them and make them buy something or make them do something. And design is both the process and obviously one of the outputs. Jenny: This is great. And the other question I was going to ask you was a lot of people have different interpretations of what a brand is, you know, and I know there's lots of descriptions of how to explain what is a brand? How do you define a brand? Bill: Yeah, well, I think for me a brand is a price. And I agree with you the problem for me with a lot of sort of brand strategy stuff is there have been so many things going around the world of branding in terms of, you know, is it a brand mission, a brand vision, a brand proposition, value, and people get confused by the terminology. And for me, it's about a promise delivered. That's what a brand should be. And my latest bugbear, I guess is a lot of people talking about it seems to be en vogue. In vogue, whatever the phrase is? I think En Vogue were a group, that’s my DJ past! In vogue is to talk about brand purpose. And I kind of get slightly irritated by that. Because some brands do have a purpose or some brands don't. You know, I'm working for an engineering company at the moment. And they do fantastic engineering, it's high precision customised engineering. And they said, What's our brand purpose, I said, I don't think you have got a brand purpose, you've got a brand promise, which is to do highly efficient robotic engineering. And they went Okay, that's fine. Whereas I'm working on another brand, which is all about combustible packaging. Now, that definitely has a purpose. Because what it's trying to do is reduce packaging waste, it's a purpose is about giving something back to society. Now, whether it's environmental, or community or some, a purpose, I think is a much more human or Earth bound thing. It's not about you know, if you're just making widgets, you don't have a purpose, you have a promise that we're going to make the very best widgets. And we're about efficiency. So I think promise and relevance is what branding is about. I personally use something which I love, which I kind of used and going back to the personal branding side, which is I like the term Ikigai. Do you know the term Ikigai? Yeah, I've used it in lots of brand workshops. And it's a very simple thing. It’s Japanese philosophy. And it, it asks, but it's really Ikigai means your reason for getting up in the morning. What motivates you? And if it was a Venn diagram, sorry I’ll draw a Venn diagram in the air, and then it's got four component parts, and it's What are you good at? What do you love? What does the world need, and What can be rewarded for. And at the heart of that is your Ikigai. And Ikigai really means your personal sense of purpose. And those people I think, who find their Ikigai early enough, they do find things, they're really good at things they love, things that they really need to provide things that people need, and they can be rewarded for it. They're going to be happy in what they do. I think when you're doing something, which doesn't suit your Ikigai, that's when there's a sort of dysfunctionality. So I tend to use Ikigai to define, not just purpose, but your kind of mission. What's your role? What’s a brand's role, and if a brand defines what its role is, it will then define what it needs to promise to people and then deliver that promise, and brands fail and they don't deliver the promise that they sell. Jenny: Do you think that too many companies right now are thinking we have to have a purpose? Because there seems to be a rise in brands having to have some bigger purpose, then? Bill: I think so I think, well, I'm not saying it's the Emperor's New Clothes, but a bit of me thinks that people try and oversell it. I think purpose is very clear. There are some brands for the purpose. And there's some brands who don't say some businesses that do and some don't, maybe that's me just being very black and white about it. But I do think that when you strive to, you know, give a fizzy drink a sense of purpose, you know, and the way you justify is saying, you know, we liberate people, you know, and let them express themselves, I kind of go, no you’re just a fizzy drink. And I'm sorry, it's you know, I love marketing, but I can also see through the bullshit. Jenny: I love that you've said that because it almost seems sometimes a bit contrived, doesn't it? Bill: That's my problem. And of course, the great thing about marketing now is people are very marketing savvy, I hate the kind of Z generation or Millennials or whatever you want to call it, but they're very aware about how they're being marketed to. And I think if you strive to over market, and you don't use human terms to describe what you're trying to do, because brands succeed, now, if they're discovered, they don't really succeed by selling hard to people, people discover brands now. And also, they like peers, peer to peer recommendations as well. So I think trying to sell purpose when you really don't have one absolutely is probably, it makes me cringe. It's like scraping nails on a blackboard to me, though, I can see through what you're doing. It's just it doesn't work. Jenny: I think if everyone's honest, I think that's the same kind of impact that it has on individuals as well. So moving on to thinking about brands, the actual, how do you think branding, the process of branding, and also brands themselves have evolved over the lifespan of your career thus far? Bill: Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. I mean, I read an article recently about sort of three generations of branding. And I thought what was great about that was it sort of  it kind of clearly says because when you think about the history branding, branding sort of started with almost you know, what it is it's putting a mark on your animal in a field. It's or, you know, the Romans use branding for various things, But branding sort of post war and I think post war is really where branding kind of took off in America in particularly, and obviously spread across to here was all sort of fast moving consumer good lead. And it was all about product performance, and it was all about aspiration. And it was branding was about ownership of something, of course, it was about owning a product or service. And then it was about giving that message out. And that's why all the classic kind of David Ogilvy advertising stuff, which is all about pushing messaging out, which engaged people. And that feels, to me, that was the kind of first generation of branding. It kind of really changed, I think, at the turn of the century into now, when I say turn of the century, that's my history thing coming back up. But I think now it's much more about customer, it was much more about customer experience. And it was much more service led. And I think you found things like financial services, and computer companies and hotel groups and airlines started talking, and coffee brands, started talking much more about service and the experience of that brand. You know, how did Starbucks grow so quickly? Well, they branded what should be very simple process, which is buying a cup of coffee. And I think we've gone past that now. Whereas I think what's happened now is moved and particularly with the huge success of the technology companies, we've moved into this third generation, which is much more entertainment led. And it's much more about a kind of engaging people's intention. Apple, of course, the past masters of that, and I hate to say like many brand consultants, I use that example. Because, you know, Apple said very early on Steve Jobs said we're about think different. We're not about selling computers, we're selling to consumers, what they can do with our computers. How can they be creative? What music can they create? What designs can they create? What films can they create? So the think different was trying to be almost anti technology and saying, we're empowering you because we made a computer system, if you don't have to be nerdish to understand, sorry, for the nerds out there. Thats kind of what I think it is now. And I think that's why tech brands have used much more of the elements of the entertainment industry. When Apple do new product launched, it's like a new film being launched. Or it's like a, you know, it's like everyone I know last night was waiting for the for the new episodes of the Crown on Netflix. God, I even put it in my diary, The Crown’s gonna be on, but I think brands now use much more about that. It’s not my thinking. There's several people writing about this kind of three generations of branding. And I think they have moved from the hard sell of products, then the experience of being with the products. And that's much more about the expectation, and particularly as a lot of successful brands now are not tangible things. I mean, Google massive brand, but we think it's a free service. It's not a free service. It's Google, you are part of the brand now. It wants to own information about you, you are the content. And so you know, and I think it's interesting how brands that were traditionally FMCG brands are desperately trying to catch up with that sort of, you know, so to use my fizzy drink, I will call it out but when Pepsi Cola did that awful ad, I think a year ago, which was sort of young people marching, protesting in the street, not protesting about anything, it's just, you know, we're Pepsi. We're providing people with the power to go on the street in protest. Of course, there's blank signs, not really protesting anything. And that's when going back to the two things I was talking about, it's trying to pretend you've got purpose, your fizzy drink is motivating people to go and talk about revolution on the streets. And also, you know, trying to pretend you're involved in entertainment that you’re not. It's just sort of, don't try and pretend you're you know, and the problem is young marketeers, I think jump on a bandwagon very quickly, and they say, we've got to have a purpose. We've got to be relevant. We've got to, and they don't stick to their knitting. No, maybe maybe this is just me being the Victor Meldrew of branding? You know,  you can see through it and and I kind of watch how my my son engages with branding as well. And you know him growing up just seeing the brands that meant stuff to him and the fact that I don't think he has ever really looked at a laptop. I think he uses his mobile phone for everything.And the brands that he has loved and liked have been usually fashion brands, music brands, you know, Spotify is big to him it's just, he’s not particularly you know, I can wax lyrical about, you know, the history of fast moving consumer goods. How Unilever, with Sunlight was one of the first kind of brands, but it doesn't mean anything to him. You know, it's, I'm interested in the history. He's actually interested in, you know, what engages with me, you know, what, what do I use? And I remember when he first, you know, said left us with him about 10 years ago, who can probably have got the timing wrong. And we've had dinner I said, I'll just go and get a taxi and he said, No, I'll get you getting an Uber. What? So, you know, he was introducing me to brands long before I knew about them. Jenny: I love this, there's so much. I love that third, you know, first, second and third generation branding, I think that's really clear to understand. I mean, just this, I don't know if you've got one off the top of your head. But given that we are in this third generation, it's all about entertainment and expectation. And I can certainly see from my partner’s son, actually, following fashion brands, they have the drop of the new range of clothing that everyone's lining up in the streets for, so I can see what you're saying about this. Do you think that there are any FMCG type brands that are doing that well? Bill: That's a really interesting one. No, is my honest... I've kind of gone..it's more kind of retailers. I think online retailers who have been smarter than anyone at engaging people, I don't think FMCG brands themselves. And I think actually, there are things like good design on shelf and standout, good packaging, and good advertising still matters. You know, I don't think these things are dead. And of course, advertising doesn't it could be just a fantastic YouTube campaign. It could be just a fantastic. But you know, wouldn't it be great if they got podcasters like you, or bloggers talking about how great their brands were to people who actually bought into them? You know, I know that my partner's youngest daughter, who's she, she does fantastic. She sells fashion through Bing Bong and bang bap that I don't know what it is, I don't know what it's called. And she uses Tik Tok and I have to admit, I'm lost now. Whatever you're doing, you’re doing it well. But you know, she seems to love watching people dancing in her clothes that she's made. Jenny: And before I go on to how you help agencies, specifically, I want to kind of pick up a little bit further on this because you work with Studio Blup, I had to look them up, to be honest. But I realised how trendy they are and how kind of what a famous youth brand they are. So on this point about, you know, the third generation branding and your experience with guiding Studio Blup, can you kind of just give us a little bit of background on how you help them and what they're doing that's different? Bill: Yeah, I mean, in a way, Studio Blup has been sort of a happy accident for me and serendipity. I discovered them because they did a website that I admired for a client of mine. And I said, How did you find it and find these people? And I think it was through a connection through college students or whatever. And said, Well, I'd love to go and see them found out they were in Islington, went up to see them and got on with them, like house on fire. And we started talking away and they're a different generation from me, they were probably 10 years out of, or eight or 10 years out of college, and just doing some fantastic stuff. And they were sort of founded on the basis of being much more sort of design and illustration agency, because the creative director came from a background of graffiti design. And he had lots of friends in the sort of grime industry, the music industry. And so they were being used by brands like Nike and Universal for doing great social media campaigns. And when I started talking to them, they said, well, we'd really like some help on two things. One is more on our direction. So I’m no longer a non executive director, by the way, I'll explain why. A non executive director was always a kind of inverted commas more, I was more a mentor for them. And they wanted to think about how to repurpose themselves to make their brand more relevant. And they wanted to add in branding services to what they were doing. So I started doing brand workshops for them. Because brand workshop helps clarify the brief, they were very frustrated that some of the briefs they were getting were pretty fuzzy. And, you know, I when I was at Future Brand, we were forever offering writing the briefs for our clients service, because actually sometimes clients know they want to do something but actually writing the brief is a really hard thing to do. And so I started doing brand workshops to help clarify the brief, of course, they could add that as an additional conscious consultancy service into their fee basis. So I was both a mentor but also doing projects with them. But for them, I began to say stop trying to pretend you're a design company. It's quite obvious you're not a design company in the classic sense, what you are is a much more like a style house. You have a very idiosyncratic style, which people really love because it's relevant. It's now it's funky, cool, fab I can use all the 60s groovy words you want. But it was a very engaging style and their social media reach was huge. Their Instagram page is fantastic. And I said, instead of saying we are another design company, because there's hundreds of them knocking on the same doors, why don't you say that we are a style house. And that we're rooted in, in in culture that we, you know, we, we look at the streets we absorb it, and we put it back into our designs. And almost say, we have our own distinctive style, if you want some of that come and work with BLUP, but because nobody else has it. Not, we're another design company knocking on your door. And so we kind of pushed that further that that they are a style house with this unique way of remixing things. If you look at their work, and I would say look at their Instagram page, because the website isn't the key thing, really. Their following on, on their Instagram page is huge. And the fact they get so many projects from people going, we really like what you're doing. And they're hugely cheeky as well, in terms of, you know, they started doing what they called Disney remixes, which were taking, and I know, Dines the creative director loves, like me, he's got a love comic books and cartoons, all that kind of stuff. And they did these Disney remixes. And they got approached by Disney and I thought, Oh, my god, they're going to be sued? And they said we love your stuff. You know, would you do some work with us? So it's that kind of it's, it's an attitude, which is not that we’re yet another design agency, we have our own style. And if you buy into it, we can prove that people really follow it. And so much so that they started managing some of their clients’ social media accounts as well. Jenny: Wow, do you know, as you're talking, I was just thinking of a slight sort of a different industry, but a similar kind of thing where, you know, George Northwood. I get my hair done at George Northwood. And if you go to George Northwood, it's a type of cut that you get, you know, they cut all in the same way in George Northwood style. He's really very popular on social media, he does some stars. And it's a similar kind of thing, what you're just describing, and I, I don't know whether many others sort of, you've called them a style house, but originally, they were a design agency, that have that kind of, you come to us, and we will help you with all the way WE do this, that's going to keep you relevant. Do you know anyone else that's doing that? Bill: No, but I’ll just finish, but I will go on to that. But BLUP the other thing they were doing, which I thought was great is because their other passion is not just design and illustration, and graffiti, and video and all that kind of stuff, animation. But they love clothes, and fashion. And so very early on, they started doing their own fashion items. So when you go to the BLUP site, it's not just to look at their work, you can buy a T shirt, or a bag or a hat or whatever. And I thought that was extraordinary. And I thought it was just a sort of vanity luxury bit of project. But weirdly enough, the fact they do that makes them appear more like a style fashion house. In fact, their clothes have been very popular with the community they know. So in the grime community, you know, and they gave samples out, and it's very, very clever marketing, so much so they did a pop up shop last year, just to test it in Soho and sold out all the items within the three to four weeks. So I think the analogy of because if you think about it, you know, I know, my partner has particular fashion brands that she buys into, and you know, she will constantly look either online or in store, see what the fashion brands are doing. And I think that's what people do with BLUP. So and, of course, there's still a very good creative design house, they do great identities and stuff, but I think it's kind of you’ve got to buy into the BLUP way. And so much so part of their success and I'd like to think I contributed part of that as a mentor, is they were bought by the Lab group at the beginning of this year, actually during lockdown, which is extraordinary. But that's because Johnny Tooz. who is the chairman of the Lab group he was also another mentor to BLUP, the managing director, Alex. And you know, they were kind of chatting away about what the future was. And I think Johnny must have had a eureka moment. He said, why don't you join our group. Because the Lab group is one of the companies that I really admire, what they're trying to do is build up this sort of digitech way of approaching branding, which is what I call all brands should be doing this now which is having a digital first approach to branding. Much as i say i hate digital marketing, I do, the terminology of digital marketing, but you have to understand and particularly when brands are becoming critically aware of this lockdown has exposed, this things won't change after lockdown. You know, all sorts of things that happen the way people work from home, the way people buy things, the way people engage with things, you know, as soon as who you know, who's the biggest suffer when they announced this potentially a vaccine, Zoom shares must have dropped you know?  Jenny: What is a digital first approach to branding? Bill: I guess the prime example of that, I'll say Apple, I won't use them again. But Airbnb would be one that I would say is that it starts off with is, what's the first thing you see on Airbnb is probably the app on your phone. Okay, so if you work backwards from what's the app on our phone, and we have to have a distinctive app on our phone, and brand backwards from there, you know, how then does that identity express itself across different social platforms, how does it engage as a website, you know. I used Uber, you can use Deliveroo, all these brands have realised it's about digital first. Whereas a lot of the companies I'm working for now haven't thought about that, because they designed their identity maybe 15-20 years ago, when it was much more print based world. So the identity actually can't be transformed to a digital first brand. So most of the work that we're doing particularly a lot of work here in Brighton, my other part of my job is with a company called New Juice, and almost all the work but we're much more sort of, say a classic, purist, typography based company, we create classic identities, but we are a digital agency as well. So we work from what's the smallest place your brand is going to be seen. You know, it's going to be if you're a B2B business, it's going to be your website, and probably your LinkedIn page. So work out that how those things work. And also, from a digital first point of view, realise that don't put repetitive copy in because Google doesn't like that. Make sure you say the same thing but you say in various different ways. So you begin to, digital first means make sure that your identity works at the finest point it has to, work backwards from there but also think clearly about the words that you use, you know, understand how organic search works. And so there are a lot of tools of how digital branding works that you need to incorporate in your next generation of branding. So literally, I love working on brand new briefs and working on some great ones at the moment. But I love working with companies who actually come to a realisation that actually, probably we need to go into the next generation of our branding, it just is not fit for purpose anymore. Jenny: This is so fascinating. I'm loving it. And to that point, there's obviously agency owners, leaders listening to this thinking, I love what Bill's saying. And actually, the first question for you is, why would an agency come to you about their own brand, when a lot of them are experts in themselves? Bill: Actually, weirdly, it came about, I've done more for Brighton agencies and I have for London agencies, it came from BLUP experience, I didn't change the way BLUP looked, but I changed the way they talked. It's a different thing. Sometimes because when you're not an employee or a shareholder or a director, you can see the wood for the trees, it's what consulting is you can stand back and be more objective. And sometimes, so when I was trying to explain the benefit of using brand workshops, quite often, an agency would go, can you do a brand workshop on us because it's a bit like doing a health check or an MOT. It's just going where we are fit for purpose. And of course, when you do a brand workshop for an agency, and I've done several now,  I've done four or five here in Brighton the last two years. They're just checking from an objective point of view that it's not that they don't have the skills themselves. But quite often, you know what it's like when you've got your own business, you're immersed in it. And sometimes you just want it's a bit like having you know, and my joke is, you know, being a consultant is stealing someone's watch and telling them the time. You’re not telling them anything they don't know, but they quite like having it as a health check. Jenny: I so see that. And being a consultant myself, it's so true. And you're right, you get so immersed in your own business. You cannot see it objectively, you cannot see the wood for the trees. So I love that. Can you, I mean, do any particular agencies spring to mind apart from obviously the ones that we've mentioned, that do their own brand really well. Bill: Yeah, I think my my favourite agency at the moment is one called You and Mr. Jones. Do you know You and Mr. Jones? Jenny: I don't actually, it kind of rings a bell. Bill: Well, I think what's clever about, they're an American agency, and they were founded bysomebody who's rooted like you in advertising, but began to realise the world they call themselves you know, they are helping brands through digitech. They're helping brands understand how to use all the skills out there to be more effective. I love the brand name as well mainly because I'm a soul fan. So you know if it's a Billy Paul, Me and Mrs. Jones, it used to be when I was a DJs to be the song I played at the end. You know, it's what they call the dance section. There's another phrase for it, which I use.Jenny: How did you how did you manage to squeeze in DJing as well? Bill: I've been an owner of a house music label. I've been an investor in a nightclub I've yeah well, no, it's kind of you follow your hobbies. I mean, look, I couldn't, I failed miserably at the things I really wanted to do if you want to know my Ikigai. So I'm not centre forward for England, never was, never played for Arsenal. And, you know, was never, you know, successful drummer in a band. So all of which I've tried. And you know, what they say about people who fail at being musicians themselves, they become DJs. You realise, you know, you’re not going to make your own music, play other peoples. Jenny: So I completely cut cross you there. So You and Mr. Jones is… Bill: It's worth looking at their website. It's just I think they're very clever. And I’d say the Lab group are probably following a similar model whereby it's much more using thinking about neuroscience, thinking about behaviour. You know, it's much more, you can't motivate people if you don't know more about psychology about what motivates people. And I think so it combines this, I think You and Mrs. Jones do it very well, which is, is it combines research, it combines constantly having your finger on the pulse in terms of how platforms are changing. It requires creative solutions to navigate those. So they're what are called post advertising agency. Because I think the old advertising agency model is dead, but that's another thing. Jenny: Okay, brilliant. I'm gonna have to look them up. And if there's an agency leader thinking, I love what Bill saying, and I would love to work with him on my brand. Can you just give us a kind of brief overview of how you approach that task? Bill: Yeah, well, I mean, with, I'll go back, it's good question. I'll go back to why I've worked with some agencies in the past. One agency I worked with, they wanted to reframe what they were doing, because their agency name, I won't name them, was the two partners names, and the two partners have fallen out. So the remaining partner wanted to then reframe what the agency was about and rename it, of course. So that was a very specific task. So I don't just work on agencies,  the reason I do it with agencies is to help them sell brand workshops as part of their service. And I say I do run workshops with them to show them the process. But go back to the reason you’d want some third party help, some objectivity, is because you've obviously decided you, you either want to change your proposition or your promise, or you want to add existing services, or you want to go to new markets, or there'll be a different reason. And like anything until you ask the right questions, you can't come up with the right answer. Everything is, I like the word bespoke. But that's the fashion telling, it's probably customised. Everything has to be customised. The problem is every problem is different. It shares similar things, because branding, you know, branding is like tree rings, or fingerprints, everyone has a unique fingerprint, and every tree has a unique tree ring. But they exist, and we know why they exist. Jenny: And is the process of working with that agency. Do you do what you mentioned before about getting all the stakeholders around the table to do that process with you? And if so, how long does that take? Bill: The classic brand workshop is probably about three days, and it will be the first day would be me researching the competition and researching the category. And if this is I do this for clients, as well as agencies as I say, it would be, you know, let me go and find out how the world sees you in this sea of other brands that you're competing with, you know, tell me who you think your key competitors are. And in that, I'll also probably look at some other categories as well, where other people are doing good stuff. So that audit and research happens first, research is really critical for any workshop. That means you go into a workshop with a few preconceived ideas. And this is what I've seen and observed, what do you think? So it's like putting a straw man into the conversation, which allows the stakeholders around the table then to go actually, yeah, and, of course, in a brand workshop, there's no wrong or right. You know, it should be a sense of everyone can just bring ideas to the table. And quite often you'll find somebody who's maybe more junior has really bright idea for the business. And the workshop actually brings it to the surface where I guess that's a really bright idea, whether it may not have come out of the normal systems, you know, within the office, you know, it's a chance to talk about our brand or our business in a kind of objective, consistent, the workshop can be a half day or a full day. And of course, a lot of these workshops now being done by Zoom. But of course, you can do that with the audit and questionnaire, then the Zoom call. And then the third part is the report which comes after which will be based on everything that everyone said, This is what you said, this seems to be the consensus. This is the criteria for the brief that you've set yourself, which is usually a new communication strategy. It could be, you know, a new look, it could be, so a creative brief. So it's three parts and say it's the research the activity which is the most critical part and then the honest, objective review of what you all collectively said. So putting, like I said, it's the watch back to you, isn't it? It's, it's almost putting the mirror and saying this is what you are. And this is what you say you want to do. Is that right? And of course, if they then say that's right, that can either go onto a creative brief which I can feed into one of my agencies, well, they can fit it back into their existing agency, it doesn't require me to them do the work. However, it's sometimes it does. Because you know, what it's like, and we go onto account management, when people like the way you talk about things, and they like the way you think they'll work with you. You know, it's nothing to do with I have a unique process, or I have unique proposition, I have a personality. And, you know, I have, I hope, a promise, which is that people like my personality, and some people don't, I can understand that. And people like what you're promising, they'll work with you. So it's a, I love workshops, because I guess in the same way that we all probably like counselling, you know, whether it be the counselling of friends or professional counsel, whatever your situation in life is, sometimes you do need to stop and take stock. Jenny: I totally agree. I think this is such a, an actually, I can see why this is so valuable, both for agencies who are looking to look at their brands in more detail for themselves, but also, as you say, as a service, that you step into that role to help agencies with that, with that, with that thing, because many agencies I work with, for example, they don't profess to be experts in branding. And yet through working with their clients, this comes up and the need comes up. But it's not something that they offer in house. So this is great to know that you do this. Let's turn our attentions to account management because many of my audience are account management and I, having worked in the industry for so long, Bill I'm just really interested in, first of all asking you the question, where do you see the value in account management? Bill: Good account management is so critical, as you and I both know, we're involved, we have been and are involved in the whole thing about relationship audits anyway, where you know, account manager, account management is about understanding the nature of both the business you're working with, and also the people you're working alongside, you know who your counterparts are in the business you're working for. So I think the value of account management is it, sometimes I say I had to learn by default, because I moved from being a creative into being a client director. And I tend to use the same things I use in my personal relationships was it's all about listening carefully. You know, knowing when to talk when not to talk. I think it's a lot to do with empathy. Because sometimes what you're being told to do isn't actually the whole brief. And sometimes if you’ve got some empathy, and you begin to ask the right questions, you'll know other aspects of the brief, which are equally as important. And of course, that's really important in account management, because good account managers actually can take one brief and turn it into two, you know, it's that kind of thing. Write a proposal, I always say this to people, whenever you write a proposal, you know, your proposal might be that one activity, but always put last sheet at the back of the proposal, did you know we do these other things? Because it doesn't matter if that's just seen as being a wasted page, or wasted PDF, at least because sometimes we'll go I didn't know you did that. Yo do copywriting? I didn't know you did that, we've actually got copywriter. So it's, it's got to be a sprat to catch a mackerel, you know, good account management should be about, of course, it's about continuity. It's obviously about success. It's about making sure that what is promised is delivered on time, at cost, accurately. And but I do think it's this, this. And the other thing, of course, with really good account management is, as I said, about workshops, research is so critical, not just research on the company you're just about to work for if you won the pitch, research on what their competitors doing, and research on the individuals you're working with, you know, I know that Simon a friend of ours, that said that, you know, he made it his job whenever he can't imagine would find out, you know, what are the interests of the person you're going, you know, are they interested in music, fashion, football. I mean, the weird thing for me is I know when I've been a successful account management because some of my great friends on LinkedIn are former clients of mine, and you know, we talk about football, music, politics, how much we hate Trump, you know, all that kind of stuff. You know, what cat videos we like, I'm joking. But you kind of and I say to an account manager, don't go out to try and be somebody friend, just be a really good professional. But if a friendship evolves out of that, then, you know, I probably in my career, worked for the same person in three different roles for three different companies. In other words, they've carried me along with them, no matter what agency I've been working with, it's my own or for somebody else into that. So people, I think people develop a shorthand together. Good account management is developing that shorthand, so that actually everything isn't laboured. Because I think the other thing we got to remember is, we think what the services are providing are so important, but they're not the most important thing in the client's life. You've got to recognise what you're doing, it may be a fun part of what they do, it's probably more fun than, you know, doing reviews of packaging lines, or whatever it is. But, and obviously, they love the results and when it motivates them, it really motivates them. But it goes back to if you have all that thing, that listening empathy and you really do some research, you're bound to probably have a better relationship. It may not be the strongest bond ever. You either want people to like you and like what you do, or just really like what you do. The liking you isn't the critical thing, but it often goes hand in hand. Jenny: I love all of that,everything that you've said. And I think, like you said, research is really important as well. It's bringing insight and ideas to the client that perhaps they hadn't considered.In terms of any high performing account managers you've experienced or you've worked with in the past, can you think of any examples where they've, you know, specifically delivered a lot of value, either to the client or the agency? Bill: I mean, when when we grew Planet very rapidly, Planet was the first company that I was the director of myself, which was the new product development agency where we used 3D design, product design and branding. We very quickly realised that as a group of creatives, and we were all creatives, that there were limitations to some of our skills, and three of our clients over a period of two years, then said, I really like your agency, I'd love to work, I'd love to switch sides. And two of them came from Unilever, one of them came from DHL, I think, and they were the best account managers we ever had, because, and they ended up they've all actually gone on and started their own agencies, we were just a stepping stone for  them. Hey c’est la vie but that's life out there. But the fact they’d come from the client side, meant that they instinctively knew what clients wanted, and how clients needed to be talked to. And also, the key thing we learned from them was actually how to provide stuff to your clients, which they could use to sell up to their bosses as well. In other words, how you provide information in a way which is useful. So I what I got out, there was a real understanding about what it must be like to be working inside Unilever or Nestle or the Diageo, you know, what are the things that are important there? Or Coca Cola? I remember once I was speaking to the marketing director, Coca Cola, a good friend, and I said, how come Coca Cola has all these problems launching new products? Should the problem is we've got too many clever people. I said, What do you mean, she said we’ve got so many clever people that often ideas get stuck in the system, because everyone's adding their, you know, it's almost we don't have a streamlined system. I think what they did for some of the revolutionary new products is they had a breakout team who went and worked in a separate office completely. Because the problem is, if you have too many people, you don't get clear cut through. Jenny: This is brilliant. Bill, I feel I could talk to you all day. But I've just looked at the time. So I'm really keen to get your view on. What do you think is the future of agencies and the future of the agency model? Any thoughts on that?  Bill: Yeah, this is this is an area again, Simon Mishra and I were talking about the other week, which is that I think it must be so tough for clients to work out where to get the services they need. You know, it used to be simple, you know, you had your advertising agency, you had your design agency, you had your public relations agency, etc. The digital world changed all of that. And the problem is, I think you've got digital agencies who have claimed their branding agencies, branding agencies, who are saying that social media agencies, people saying.. it's not being, not sticking to themselves. So I think the future of agencies is actually saying, again, going back to branding themselves, so they really know what their promises, what are they really good at, focus on what they're really good at, doesn't, they can still sell a whole bunch of other services, but understand the hierarchy of how you communicate what you don't pretend to be things you're not, you know, if really you’re greater public relations, and you have fantastic insight about how to, you know, speak to magazines, and you've got great relationship with journalists, that's your strength. The fact you can do social media stuff, as well as, don't pretend you're a social media expert. You know, and you've got you got hands on touch to all the, you know, the guru bloggers out there, and it's just, I think, stick to your knitting. But the future agencies means that lots of agencies are going to be confusing people by pretending they're everything to all men, and that's it's a very grey area out there. I think shopping it must be really difficult. I think it's why you know, the clever agency groups now you know, much as there are things about WPP I don't agree with but what Martin was brilliant at was sorting out what was.. this is a digital service within our agency. This is an advertising services agency, this is a creative, you know, saying it's all about you know, we're passionate about doing branding, and okay, that's why You and Mr. Jones is an agency out there talking about guiding people through digital technology. That's what we're best at. And then okay, well, what's the service that you need to guide you through this changing digital world?So I think, and it's why with Studio Blup, it's very clear what they are good at. And it's why they're, they're part of the Lab group now. They are great creative, hotshot have their own style, their own unique way of doing things, which people buy into, and has that way of working. And with New Juice here in Brighton, we know that we're when we're not a B2C agency, we're much more B2B agency, where we love doing business to business brands, and we're working, we've worked on several startups, they're probably my favourite kind of work at the moment, which is where you got a blank sheet of paper. And so we don't claim to be things that we're not, we're, you know, we say we're a branding agency that has our finger on the digital pulse, it's, it's fairly clear. Jenny: I think that makes so much sense stick to what you do really, really well. And just finally, to wrap up, do you have any sources that inspire you, sources of information, any books that you've read, that you think would be particularly relevant for the audience to read? That would help them either with their thoughts around branding or account management? And, yeah, or anyone that you follow? Bill: Not so much books, as I said, I'm not really, you know, the only book I've really loved reading recently is The Body by Bill Bryson. And that that was a very poignant book to read right before this whole COVID because it talks about, you know, the immune system and things. I mean, you know, so learning about your own body is pretty interesting. But that's irrelevant to what we're talking about. I mean, I guess the people I really follow people like Mark Ritson. Just  because whether you agree with him or not, he pumps a lot of stuff out of there, which is worth.. It’s like anyone you know, you can agree or disagree, but at least there's stuff that's being put out there. I really like Michael Wolff. Now, don't get confused, there’s two Michael Wolff's. If you Google it,  that one's a journalist. I mean, Michael Wolff, who used to be the creative director of Wolff Olins, the branding agency. His website, which has got an A-Z of branding, it's fantastic. I mean, it's quite frivolous and lovely. But, you know, I know him personally. And he writes stuff on LinkedIn, which I always read. And I like him as well so probably, it's not books, it's magazine articles. You know, there's, there's just some great people out there. I could go go through a long list, but I think it's kind of, definitely I suggest Michael Wolff, if you're a creative, I think if you want to, as you know, if you want to know what your client's needs are, you've got to be reading Marketing Week and Mark Ritson has great views about marketing. Marketing changes all time. Jenny: Great advice. Thank you. And just finally, if anyone's listening to this thinking, Bill sounds fantastic. I'd really like to kind of contact him. First of all, who would you like to be contacted by and and how would they do that?Bill: My real passion at the moment is helping people. The lovely thing about, not lovely, if there's any, any good news, but lots of people coming out of the woodwork who wants to launch their own new businesses. So I think it's been a lot of time for people to do their own Dragon's Den in their head, going, actually, maybe is this the way I want to work again? I've had an idea. So there are lots of new businesses being formed or new entrepreneurial ideas happening. And I love working on those because quite often, it is a brilliant, I'm working on one at the moment, which is an absolutely brilliant idea. But they haven't really got a brand name, or the one they came up with is not really clever. They hadn't really researched, the branding wasn't really important, the business idea. I can help on the branding side, so I love startups. Particularly I can really help those and of course, the other thing is because I'm not an agency with overheads, I can give much more of a personal service, which is valued for money, I have to say, people. I’m advertising myself!  I love that. And of course I love working with agencies, but I've kind of restricted myself now to working,  I've kind of done my job with BLUP, I'll still be working with them, but they're part of the Lab group. And that's their extended family, which gives them international reach. Doesn't mean I don't still work with them. But I'm really enjoying working here in Brighton with New Juice. Because the great thing about I weirdly moved to Brighton to work from home seven or eight years ago. So I kind of think I'm Nostradamus. I predicted it. But the lovely thing about looking Brighton is they're very small agencies here but the sense of collaboration is huge. It's a kind of mini Silicon Valley. There are so many digital companies and so many games developers and just really diverse.  Wired Sussex is great,  you can connect with people and I've connected with great video makers, animators, all sorts of people. So I think the future model of the agency world, from my perspective, is we're going to keep very lean at New Juice. But it's a bit like a film production company, you bring the right people in when the right brief needs them, you don't need to employ them. It's much more about the collaboration. And Brighton seems to have a great collaboration culture, partly because it's essentially I think it's Camden by Sea. It's got a love of music and arts, which is you know, that's why I lived in Camden. Jenny: Amazing, Bill, listen, I feel like I talk to you all day. This has been absolutely gold. Thank you so much for spending the time with me, sharing all your knowledge and all your views. I think it really has been fantastic. So thank you so much for joining me today. Bill: Always a pleasure, Jenny. It was great to be introduced to you and I think your podcasts are great. I think that's the other thing is podcasts are something which have been hugely helpful during lockdown. I think I've certainly enjoyed doing several now. And it's got me listening to a lot as well, which is again, it's weird, isn't it? I just don't read books as much. Jenny: I think you should do one yourself. Bill: I've got an idea for one. Jenny: Okay, all the best. Thank you so much, Bill.