Creative Agency Account Manager Podcast

Transcript: Jenny  Well, today, I'm absolutely thrilled that Dr. Mark Goulston has joined me. He is a very sought after business advisor, consultant, coach, speaker and psychiatrist. He has such an impressive background. He's the author of several best selling books including 'Just Listen', that I'm holding in my hand here, and in the background with Mark, 'Talking to Crazy' and 'Real Influence' and 'Get Out Of Your Own Way', all bestselling books. He hosts the extremely popular podcast 'My Wake Up Call with Dr. Mark Goulston', where he's interviewed some prominent figures like radio and TV host, Larry King, leadership guru, Ken Blanchard. He's also a regular LinkedIn live host called 'No Strings Attached' and he's written for Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Business Insider, Huffington Post, Psychology Today and many more. He's the inventor of Surgical Empathy and this is a process for getting through to anyone, by going to their psychological core, and unlocking what's holding them back. He was a UCLA professor of psychiatry for over 25 years, and a former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer. So I'm honoured to have him on the show today. I'm very grateful to Marcus Cauchi, our mutual friend who's put us in contact. Mark, welcome to the show. Mark  That's a lot to live up to. Jenny  It certainly is very impressive Mark! Can you help me fill in some gaps there? Tell me a bit more about yourself in your own words, and how you became an expert in listening and getting through to others? Mark  Well, I think it started because after my training, I was really fortunate, I trained at UCLA in psychiatry, and I had a mentor who was one of the pioneers in the area of suicide prevention, a fella named Dr. Ed Shneidman. And if you look him up, you'll see  they're almost synonymous. And he was a main referral source for me when I started out. And something that was my good fortune is that I had applied for a fellowship and just before I finished training, the fellowship was cancelled. So I just shrugged my shoulders thought, well, I'll go out there and see if anyone will come and see me. But I had the good fortune because when I would be with patients, yes I had a protocol, but I didn't necessarily have to report to anyone. And what I noticed in my suicidal patients, and I had a fair number of them because Dr. Schneider would refer them to me is, I learned to not just look into their eyes, but listen into their eyes. And increasingly, I got this feeling that what they were saying in their eyes is you're checking boxes, and I'm running out of time. And if you look basically, if you have a loved one, or a teenager or a spouse, and you look into their eyes, they're all screaming out, this hurts so much I can't take it anymore. But what happens is they scare people. And what I realised is when I was checking boxes, it was really a way to protect myself. And what I realised is if I listened into their eyes, if they couldn't come to me, I had to go to where they were. So I'll share one anecdote, which really was one of many, but this was probably the most dramatic one. When I was early in my practice, I used to moonlight at a psychiatric hospital, which means I'd cover for other psychiatrists. Over the weekend I'd meet patients, I'd go up to the wards and I'd medicate and I'd write prescriptions. But sometimes you'd be awake for 24/36 hours and so on one weekend that happened and on a Monday I came in to my office to see someone, I'll call Nancy. Nancy had made three or four suicide attempts before I was seeing her. She'd been in the hospital at times one month, two months, back then you could stay in the hospital a long time. And I'd been seeing her for six months and I didn't think I was helping her. She'd come in, that was the longest she'd gone without an attempt or hospitalisation, but when she'd come into the office, if you're me, this would be Nancy. She wasn't exactly catatonic, but she was disconnected. So on this Monday, after not sleeping, there's Nancy, you know, characteristic pose, and I'm looking out of the room and all the colour turns to black and white. So I'm looking at a room and it's black and white and I thought well, this is interesting. And then I got these chills, and I got cold. And I thought I'm having a stroke or a seizure. So I'm a medical doctor, I'm a psychiatrist. So it wasn't rude, because she was looking at me, so I did a neurologic exam on myself. So I'm going like this, I'm looking at my fingers, I'm tapping my elbows, I'm going to see if I'm having a stroke or a seizure. And then I realised I wasn't. And then I had this crazy idea that I was looking out at the world through her eyes. And that the world felt black and white and cold to her. So I just leaned into it. And the more I leaned into it, the worse it got. And because I was sleep deprived, I blurted something out, that normally I wouldn't. I said, Nancy, I didn't know it was so bad. And I can't help you kill yourself. But if you do, I will still think well of you. I'll miss you. And maybe I'll understand why you had to to get out of the pain. And I thought, did I think that? Or did I say that? And I thought I just gave her permission. I thought I just blew it. And then she hesitantly looked at me. And then she grabbed on to my eyes. I mean, she grabbed onto my eyes with her eyes. And I thought she was going to say, 'Thank you, I'm overdue'. And I said, 'What are you thinking?' And she looked at me, and she said, 'If you can really understand why I might have to kill myself to get out of my pain, maybe I won't need to'. And then the colour came back. The coldness went away. And I kept looking into her eyes. And I said, 'I'll tell you what we're going to do. I'm not going to give you treatments, and programmes that you've already been through unless you ask for them. Because if I give you all those things, you'll nod politely, and then you won't do them. And you'll come back and you'll tell me, you weren't able to do them? Would that be okay?' And she kept looking at me with a look that said, 'Keep talking. Keep talking, I'm intrigued'. And I said, 'What I'm going to do instead is, I'm going to find you wherever you are. And I'm going to keep you company there. Because you've been there alone, too long at the worst times. Would that be okay?' And then her eyes started to tear up. And she started to heal. So you'd mentioned something called Surgical Empathy. And I just gave you an example of kind of what it looks like and what it feels like. And here's something I discovered about suicide. And if you're watching or listening in, you might relate to this, and other people don't get it. Death is compassionate to psychological pain that's unbearable. So death is compassionate to hopelessness, that won't go away. Which is why people who are feeling hopeless, helpless, worthless, useless, they attach to death as something to take the pain away. And what I've discovered with Surgical Empathy, what I did with Nancy, and what I'm now training people around the world to do, is if they can feel 'felt by' you, and if you've read my book, just listen, you'll know it's about how do you get people to feel 'felt by', it's great to feel understood versus misunderstood. But boy, when someone feels 'felt', and they feel safe, they lean into it, because they don't feel safe or felt by anyone. And so, I think what happens with Surgical Empathy, is they let go of death as the way to relieve their pain, and they grab on to feeling 'felt'. So is any of this making any sense because you've been so patiently listening to me. Jenny  I'm very conscious, because I'm reading the book, Mark I want to pick up on a couple of things. You say that you blurted it out. For me, in that moment, it obviously came very naturally to you what you needed to do with her to make that change, and obviously it impacted hugely, and that was a turning point for her. And I'm sure probably the first time that anyone's spoken to her like that. That she felt 'felt'. So that was the first thing that I kind of picked up on. I also want to tell you that I've been listening to a lot of other podcasts. I've watched your LinkedIn Live, and you have this way, with your voice, that it's very soothing. And I actually felt quite emotional listening to your voice. So does that have a part to play when you want to get through to someone? Mark  Absolutely, in fact, something I will share with you and your viewers and listeners. I do a a version of mediation and conflict resolution that uses Surgical Empathy. And tell me if you can picture this? Picture a group of people, a group of executives or Board of Directors, and I actually developed this working with couples who just hated each other. So picture this, there is a group or a couple individuals, they're in conflict. And what I do with them, is I will say, 'Pick three topics that you can't talk about without getting into an argument, that need to be talked about and resolved'. So they can usually come up with those. And then I'll say, kind of tongue in cheek, 'Well, it looks like we have agreement. We have agreement that you can't talk about those without arguing and that's a good start'. And I make sure, 'Are we in agreement that those three topics need to be resolved?' And  they say 'Yes', they say, 'Great'. Now, would you also agree that when people are talking to and with people, we are making progress towards resolving those problems? Would you agree, when people are talking to and with each other? Yes. Would you also agree that when anyone is talking over, down or at another person, the progress stops. And what happens is, whoever you're talking over, down or at at, starts to tense up, and starts to want to react? Would you agree to that? Most people agree with that. And I say, great. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to pick those topics that you can't talk about. And I'm going to ask you, you parties, show me the way you need to talk about it so we can solve it. And that means show me how to talk to and with each other. And at the first sign someone is talking over, down or at another person, I'm going to call a timeout, because progress has stopped. And I'm going to take that person into another room, or if it's a Zoom  we'll do a breakout session, and I'm going to find out what's going on with that person. You know, and I'm going to talk them down from DEFCON 1 to DEFCON 5. And often they'll vent, but I'll let them vent,  and I'll say 'What's really going on? Now I understand that. But what's really going on? Why does it so matter to you that you have to get your way, and you can't agree?' And so they open up and they open up. And then I will coach them. I'll say, 'So show me when you go back, the way you want to talk about it so you don't push people away. Because, do you think the way you're talking about it is going to make anyone want to agree with you? Even if you're right, who's going to want to agree with that? You know, you're reminding people of their abusive mom or their abusive dad, no one's gonna want to agree with you. So let's practice that'. And then we'll give it a try and do the best you can. Because you know, if you get agitated, I'll bring you back here and we'll refine it. We have all day. But can you see that approach? Jenny  I love the approach. It's the 'how' isn't it? It's having agreement upfront, 'how' are we going to address it? And over, at or down, that's the rules. So I love that because everyone understands the rules, and then they can self regulate, can't they, or maybe? So I love that. Why do you think that we are so bad at listening, and yet everyone thinks they're great listeners? Because the story you described before, with the suicidal lady, was, you were first of all listening enough. And then you started meeting her where she was, empathising. So why do you think, we all think we're good listeners, but really, we're not. Mark  Well, one of my favourite quotes comes from a British psychoanalyst named Wilfred Bion. And he talked about listening and one of his quotes, and I think he was talking about presence. And basically his quote was, 'The purest form of listening is to listen without memory or desire'. Because when you listen with memory, you have an old agenda that you're trying to plug the person into. When you listen with desire, you have a present or future agenda that you're trying to plug them into. But in either case, are you listening to where they're coming from, or their agenda? And in my book, Just Listen, I use a bunch of acronyms to make something easier to remember, and I say you want to be a PAL in conversations. And PAL stands for Purposeful, Agendaless, Listening. Purposeful, Agendaless, Listening. And I think one of the reasons people don't listen is because most people have an agenda. I wrote a blog on why people are afraid to empathise, especially in the business world. And one of the reasons people are afraid to empathise in the business world is, if I really find out where the other person's coming from, what's really important to them, what they care about, what they really need, and it doesn't match what I'm selling, if I'm going to be really showing that I'm of service, and I care about them, they're not going to buy what I have. So I'm afraid to empathise and bring up something that means I can't sell them what I have. But the problem is, if you're forceful, you maybe can push something through to someone who's intimidated by that. But, boy, if it doesn't work out, or they feel that you've sold them too hard, you're not going to win many friends or influence too many people. Jenny  No, and I completely agree with you. I mean, my audience is principally those managing client relationships on a day to day basis. It's their job, first and foremost, to listen to the client to understand their needs, their business challenges, their problems. And whilst they don't have a selling agenda, it's certainly an agenda in their minds to want to help. How can I add value to this relationship? Regardless whether it's with my products and services, or maybe, I could introduce them to someone in my network, or provide a piece of information that they will find useful, any trend or market insight? So what advice would you give to those account managers that are managing those client relationships, that are going into a client meeting, trying not to have a specific agenda, but being really present? Do you think, I mean this is the feedback that I get, is in order to do that proficiently, you have to be flexible, and sometimes account managers lack the confidence to go in there without some set questions or some set agenda of some type. So what advice would you give to those maybe who are in that position? Mark  Well, here's something I'll share with you. Five of my books are bestsellers, pretty big bestsellers in Russia. And about a year and a half ago, I gave a presentation along with a Nobel Prize winner named Daniel Kahneman, he wrote a book called Thinking Fast and Slow, and it was he and a fella named Joseph Pine, who wrote I think The Experience Economy. Great people, and we all headlined. And my talk to about 1000 Russian managers, probably account managers, leaders, a whole bunch of people, the title of my talk was 'Change everything you know about communication'. And what I said to them, and there's actually a video clip, (I'll send that to you, if you want to add a link to it), I said to the audience, if I focus on what you're listening to, you're listening to me. And if I respond by giving you a bunch of bullet points, you will write them down. You'll try some of them. Most of them won't work. You'll say it'll work for him, he's an expert. Maybe one or two will work. But if I have good stories, and I am a good communicator, you'll give me your mind for now. And they're looking at me like I'm a little bit crazy. Maybe I am a little bit. And then I switched the tone of my voice. So they heard my tone, even though I was translated into Russian in real time. And I said, but if instead of focusing on what you're listening to, and you're giving me your mind for an hour, if I focused on what you're listening for. And I got it right, without you telling me and I delivered on it. You'll give me everything. And then I said, 'This is what I do, when I make presentations to some of your listeners or their companies, because it's often the same three questions. Let me see if I get what you're listening for. You're listening for something that will get you better, measurable results. Because that's what you're judged on is measurable results. And if you get better ones, you might get a promotion or a raise. And what you're also listening for is a way to get those results, that's less stressful, and more effective, because the way you're doing it now is stressful. You're all drinking too much. Your people are drinking too much. It's really out of control. And I asked them, 'Is that true? And he went 'Da, da'. And then I said, 'And I think what you're most listening for, is that I can give you tips that are tactics that are immediately doable by you. And you don't have to buy a book because I haven't written this book yet. Still haven't. And there's no course that I'm trying to sell you into. So you're listening for tips and tactics that I can give you to accomplish that, so you can get better measurable results that are less stressful. And if we do that, it will be worth the more than $500 in a day of your time that you gave to be here. Is that true? And they went 'Da da'. I said, Come on, sit down, sit down, calm down. But that was focusing on what they were listening for. So if you're an account manager, and you get a sense that the other person is smiling, but it's not a Yes, they're being polite. They're smiling. They may not want to say they don't understand what you're talking about because you're using too much jargon. They're just smiling politely. But if you're more of a seasoned account manager, you'll know that smile is not a yes. It's trying to be polite, because they've checked out. They just haven't gotten up and left. And then at the end you might say, 'Do you have any questions?' And they might say, 'No, no, I think I heard what you say' or and then you might get anxious, well, 'Can I share some of the other things we're doing?' and that's really going to drive them away even more. And, and so here's a tactic and tip that you can use from our podcast today. So picture that scenario, you're talking to them, and they're smiling, but you can tell they're not engaged. And what you say to them is, 'I'd like to pause for a minute'. And they're gonna wake up because it's like you called on the kid in the back of the class who was sleeping, 'What, what what?' I'd like to pause from it. And then you say, 'I went to the beginning of our conversation'. And you're listening, because they've never heard this before. They'll go 'Ha'. 'I went to the beginning of our conversation. And it was kind of like this. You came here looking for something and whatever, I came here wanting to sell you something. And you were looking for and listening for something that we haven't covered? And can you tell me what it was when you came here, when you were listening for something or looking for something that we haven't covered? Because we have a little time left. And we might be able to address it. If I can't handle it, yeah, there may be people I know who can help you.' Jenny  Excellent question. Mark  And so you get them to open up. And what you then want to do is get them from being withdrawn into riveted in attachment to you. And then when they tell you whatever it is, you say 'I'm so glad you said that. I wish we had started with that at the beginning. Can you tell me why that's important to you?' And then they're opening up further. And you said, 'Oh, I'm so glad you're telling me that it all makes sense.' Then here's a question. You have to get advanced in this to be comfortable. I'm comfortable with it. But I'm a psychiatrist. And the next question is 'Jeez, you've told me what you were listening for why it's important, you know, between you and me, what's really going on? And they're going to go, 'What?' And then you say, 'Yeah, between you and me, why are we doing this? Because you and I have much more in common than either of us have with our CEOs. Our CEOs, they go to another company, they're going to get a parachute. You and I just trying to make a living. I'm trying to sell stuff, you have to buy stuff, that doesn't backfire. We're like, we're peers. So what's really going on?' And they may pause, but they've never heard a conversation like this, they're going to be intrigued. And then you say, 'Can I share with you the answer I get from other people in your position?' They're going to be curious. And then you say, 'I don't know if you can relate to this, but I've spoken to others, and when they opened up to me, and it was clear that we were peers, both of us just trying to make a living, more than a couple of them have said, 'I need a win'. And when I've asked them, 'Wha't does that mean?' They said, 'You know, you get paid for selling things. I get paid according to my judgement and what I buy. And I bought some things that didn't really work out and my boss kind of questioned my judgement. What I need are some wins, where my boss doesn't question my judgement'. And then what I suggest to people, and you may lose the sale, but within a relationship for life what I'd suggest you say to the person is, 'Let's forget what I'm selling. Tell me not only what a wind would look like, tell me what would cause your boss to get a promotion and then give you one? What? Think of what's going to get your boss a promotion, or a raise. And if you're instrumental in helping them get a promotion or raise in there, someone who shares their good fortune, they're going to give one to you. So let's brainstorm what that might be. Jenny  Mark, this is this is gold, it really is. I mean, a lot of what you've just said, it's about breaking down those barriers, isn't it? And you can see when you when you play out that scenario, the depth of connection that you would then establish with the client. And I feel that more and more I'm seeing account managers communicating with their clients, through email, for example. Too much through email, and not enough verbal. Obviously, we're in a remote working situation currently, but still on video and on telephone. I don't know why they don't approach conversations more in that in that way? And I suppose on going back to confidence levels, and whether that's experience, confidence or worrying about the outcome? Are there any tips or strategies you can share around how you would overcome the internal, maybe dialogue you have? You know, they're not interested in that. How dare you speak to them like that, that kind of voice? Mark  I live truly to be of service to other people. I don't sell anything. And when I'm with people, they quickly realise that I am here to help them be as successful, have the best life possible. And, I'm not about money. And I'll tell you what happens, at least in my stratosphere, but it's taken years to develop this kind of trust from people. I've discovered that when you give value, true value to people who are very wealthy, and you don't hit on them for anything, they appreciate you because they were able to lower their guard because you weren't grabbing at them. And then they'll come back because I don't ask for anything. And they'll say, how can I compensate you? And something that I learned from my good friend Marshall Goldsmith, a big executive coach in the world, is well, you can pay me what you think it's worth. Or you can donate to a foundation that I'm connected to stop teen suicides? It's up to you. I understand when you're young, I can't do that, I got to get my numbers, and I'm not at that level. But I'm throwing a lob into your future about what you might evolve into. Jenny  That's really good advice. And your point of coming 100% from service is a good philosophy no matter what level of experience you have, isn't it? Because if you go in there with the agenda lists, no agenda, and just think I want to help, how can I help? And then you're fixed on solving the client's problem, to understand it first, and then think about how you can help. I think that's a general good philosophy, to put your mindset into more of a kind of structured and focused way. Mark  Why I'll tell you something, you know, we hear this term, the Imposter Syndrome. And what I've noticed is social workers, nurses, most doctors don't have the Imposter Syndrome. Because they're not selling something to their patients. They're trying to get them well, they have this higher calling. And I think the Imposter Syndrome in business, is if you're selling something, you know you have to get your numbers. And so down deep, you know, I care more about getting my numbers than really being of service to them. And so I'm an Imposter because when I say the words, and when I say some of these lines, which if I hear it again, I'm going to tell the person lose the line, 'What keeps you up at night?' I think that's a line that has come and gone. And what happens is people see through it that you've one to some training that teaches you to ask certain questions, that sound like you care when you don't. And I'll share something with you that I used to call the Miracle on 34th Street Sale. So some years ago, I would meet with people and sometimes it would take me, sometimes I would fly to meet them, or take me several hours to drive there, and pretty quickly, I would focus on what's truly important to them, and critical to their success. And then when we surface that I would sometimes say to these prospects, I'd say my advice to you is don't hire me or buy my product or service. This is after taking three hours to get there and they go 'What?'  I said, I just focused on what will get you a raise or make you successful. And there's at least two or three things that come to mind for me, and they're not what I do, and they're not my product or service. But I know two or three people. Now, if you don't have them internally, I know two or three people, you know, you probably should talk to and get those things taken care of. And an account manager said, 'Let me get this straight. You drove all the way here. We had a pretty good conversation. And I might have hired you and you told me not to hire you'. And I said 'That's right'. He said, 'Why did you do that?' I said 'Because as I got a clear idea of what would get you a promotion or a raise, but I realised you needed to do other stuff before you use me. And I just sold you on something much, much bigger than my service or product'. And he said, 'What's that?' 'I just sold you on a unicorn. I just sold you on trusting me. Which means I can call you back at any time as I continue to be focused on your success and come up with things that might help it'. Jenny  Lovely, that's such good advice. And I think it's really sort of setting the tone for what's going to make you successful in an account management role. Really. You describe in the book, the four levels of talking and listening, which I thought was a lovely way to understand the different levels. Do you mind spending a couple of minutes talking about that part? Mark  Sure. When we're in a conversation with another person, we can talk over them, at them, to them or with them. Over, at, to or with. And the way you know you're speaking to them is when you talk over them, they're insulted. If I gave a talk to a group and they weren't martyrs, and there was a break and I was talking over all of them, if there's a break in the middle of my talk, they shouldn't come back and hear the rest of it. If you're talking at them, people will either be scared, and they'll hunker down because you're reminding them of some bully in their life, or they'll stick their chin out at you, like, you can talk at me that way. If you're talking to them, they'll nod, this is business as usual, you've addressed their needs, and it looks like it's gonna go forward. But the gold standard is when you talk with them. And when you talk with them, you'll see that they relax their shoulders, because they can lower their guard and they feel safe. And it's when you talk with people, that things get done, as we mentioned earlier about the mediation approach of talking to and with, people lean towards each other. I'll share another exercise, which you haven't heard about. I've been rather busy and in COVID I've written two books. So one of them. One of them is called 'Why cope when you can heal?' about how to heal from trauma and not just recover from it. And the second one, which is coming out tomorrow is called 'Trauma to Triumph, a roadmap for leading through disruption and thriving on the other side'. And in that book, I talked about the huva technique. And if you practice this once a day, with one conversation that you want to go well, if you practice it for a week and make it a habit, it will change all your relationships. And you've done a very good job, by the way. So Hoover stands for, what you do is you have a conversation with someone. And afterwards you rate yourself from their point of view, on a scale of one to 10. One being lousy, 10 being great. H - is from their point of view, how much did they feel heard out by you? Did you interrupt them? Did you try to top them? Did you try to one up them? How much do they feel heard out? U - How much did they feel understood? In the way you show you understood them as you ask them say more about that. You're curious about what they're saying? V - How much did they feel that you value what they said? They remark and they see the application of it and how it could be valuable. And then A - is how much do they feel you added value to what they said. And I will tell you, you get a 10, 10, 10, 10 score.  Jenny  Thank you. Mark  Beacause I felt heard out. These are not short answers and you're letting me go. I felt understood by you. Because you dipped in and you made sense of what I was saying back from me and your viewers and listeners. I certainly felt valued by what you said. And then you certainly added value by being able to pause and genuinely see the application of it. So you got a good score. Jenny  Thank you so much. Coming from you, that's massive praise for me. Thank you so much. I want to pick up on the You. You said, 'I rate myself on being understood'.  Did I say things like, 'Tell me more about that. What else? What else?' I'm finding, Mark, that when I have, personally have conversations sometimes, say for example, I say, 'Oh, I went to Greece on holiday last year'. The person I'm speaking to said, 'I went to Greece as well. And we went here and we went to this taverna and it was great'. And all of a sudden, I'm talking about their holiday. Now, I've used this example, but I'm sure the person that wants to empathise with me and say, 'Me too. I went to Greece'. But can you give us maybe... Mark  So what's happening is, I was fortunate, I've had eight mentors. Unfortunately, they've all died. The last one was Larry King. I had breakfast with him for two years before COVID every morning with a group of our breakfast group. And I was a student of Larry King. And he was just busy being Larry King. He's an incredibly curious person. And I said, 'Larry, I just discovered your magic', because I like to deconstruct how people do things so other people can do it. I said, 'Larry, when you do interviews, you're a plus-er,  you're not a minus-er and you're not a topper. So you're plus-er, meaning you're always adding to what the other person's saying, not your own personal anything. You don't give opinions. You don't give advice, but you're always having them go deeper. You're very curious. And that's a way of being a plus-er. So why did you do that? Why the green hair. Without judgement, you do it without judgement. 'You shot a lot of kids, why did you do that?' No judgement. And you're not a minus-er. You don't jump down their throat. You don't hit them with a gotcha. So people love to be interviewed by Larry King, and you're not a topper. And see, what you were mentioning is, you'll say, 'I went to Greece'. And someone else will say, 'Oh, we did, too and we saw all the islands plus we took a cruise and we made it over to such and such'. So that's being a topper. And so that's another exercise you can ask yourself. Was I a plus-er? Which is valuing and adding value? Was I a plus-er? Or was I a minus-er? Or was I a topper? Jenny  I love how you create models for everything. I do that too. And I think it's a way for everyone to remember these things, these principles. So thank you for this. This is amazing. I've been taking a million notes. Mark, tell me in your career, what has touched you the most? Because you've helped, I mean, literally hundreds and hundreds of people throughout your life. Can you talk to us about a scenario where it really has impacted you personally the most. Getting through to someone? Mark  Well, I think I shared this scenario with Nancy. I mean, that was kind of a watershed thing. I knew it was helpful, listening into people's eyes. But I listened into her heart, which which had grown cold from depression and suicide. But I'll tell you, there is a backstory. One of the things that caused me to look into people's eyes, and I'll share this story and then we're probably going to have to start to close it up, I got it back to back interviews here. But before Nancy, I remembered when I was in training, I was called to see a patient who had been put into restraints. And I was called to okay the restraints on their arms and legs and put them on anti-psychotic medication because they were pulling at their IVs, they pulled at a respirator too, but that was on them. And they were kicking. And the doctor said, 'Just go up there and okay the order'. So I go up there, we'll call him Mr. Jones, and I go into the room, and he can't talk because he has a tube in his throat. He's going 'Ah, ah, ah', and I said, 'What is it?' and his eyes are like saucers. And I said, 'What is it?' And they said, 'He's just psychotic'. And I kept talking, and I gave him a pencil to write something and his hands were tied down. And he just scribbled. And I thought, well, maybe they're right. And I said, 'Look, you're pulling at the IVs, you're kicking, you're pulling at the respirator, and we had to put your arms and legs down. And I'm going to give you something to help you sleep. And then when when you're rested, we'll take everything off'. So a day later, the doctors page me and they said 'Mr. Jones is up, he's sitting in bed, he's off the respirator. And he told us to page you'. So I go into his room. And he looked into my eyes. And he said, 'Pull up a chair'. So I pull up a chair. And then he kept looking at me and he said, 'What I was trying to tell you, is that a piece of the respirator tubing was broken and was stuck in my throat. And you do know that I will kill myself before I go through that again. Do you understand me?' My eyes just watered up. And I said 'I'm so sorry. So sorry. I understand'. So it's events like that, that caused me to say I've to do more than checkboxes and make sure I'm asking all the appropriate questions. And what I've shared with you, when you're talking to an account manager, and it doesn't look like it's going well, my version for you who are listening in, they're listening for and looking for something that you haven't covered. And so give them the chance to bring it up. Jenny  Love it. Thank you so much. Honestly, Mark, this has been revelatory and absolutely so valuable for people out there thinking about evaluating how well they are listening and getting through to other people. So I want to be respectful of your time. How can people reach you Mark and learn more about you and read your books? What's the best place to go? Mark  Well, if you go to Amazon, you'll see I have nine books there now, so you have Amazon UK. If you go to markgoulston.com, I blog a lot and I'm just sort of a content maniac. I have a podcast called 'My Wakeup Call' (wakeups one word), and I speak to thought leaders, change agents from around the world. I spoke with Margaret Heffernan. She's in the UK. She's one of the top TEDx speakers. She was wonderful. And then I have something on LinkedIn called 'No Strings Attached', where I interview my guests, and I say, 'Just give nuggets and tips with no strings attached, that meet these criteria for my viewers and listeners. I never would have thought of that. That could work. I could do that today'. Jenny  Such a lovely concept. Honestly, I'm going to include all of those links in the podcast notes. So Mark, thank you again so much. I'm absolutely honoured that you came on. And I've really, really enjoyed it. You've had me riveted for an hour now. So thank you so much. Mark  Well, well, you could sell HUVA vacuum cleaners - HUVA. You did a great job. Thank you.  Jenny  Honestly, that was amazing.

I hope you come away with lots of new ideas about the account management role. Now if you are an account manager, and you want to raise your value,  increase your confidence, improve your consultancy skills, and grow your existing accounts, then come and join me at the Account Accelerator Programme. The next one starts on 15th April. It's for three months, and I take your agency from unpredictable project revenue to more predictable account growth. If you want some more details, please contact me on LinkedIn at Jenny Plant or drop me an email at jenny@accountmanagementskills.com. I'll see you on the next episode.Transcript:Jenny   So, I'm beyond thrilled today to have David C. Baker with me today. David is a leading authority on positioning, reinventing and selling firms in the creative and digital space. He's author of five books, including The Business of Expertise, a book Dan Pink described as essential reading for entrepreneurs in any space. And he's considered the experts expert. David describes himself as part researcher, part scientist and part educator. He's advised over 900 agencies and co hosts probably one of the most well known podcasts in the agency world 2Bobs with Blair Enns. He also happens to be a lifetime member of Mensa which is incredible. I'm honoured to have him on the show today to talk about everything to do with account management. So David, a big warm welcome. David   Thank you, it's really good to be here. Account management, now 80% of the people just left, except for the day to day- they tune in to you because of account management, right? But if anybody else said that we're going talk about account management today, zoom, everybody's gone! Jenny  That is so true! I know that you've written a lot about this. I'm a massive fan, I've followed your work for a long time. And I know that you have a really strong point of view on many things. And I often find myself listening to your podcast, and kind of nodding and saying, yes, so there were several where I just felt, 'Yes, David's actually said things that I've been thinking'. So I'm so excited about this interview. So, would you mind by starting off by, I know you are a legend in the industry, so many people know you. But just giving a little bit more detail about how you work with agencies. David   Sure. So I had my own firm for, I can't remember, it was five or six years. And through a strange set of circumstances, I started advising my peers. And so, I do that, I've worked in 30 countries. I only work with the smaller, independent firms. So, I don't work for the ones that are a part of holding companies and so on. And now I only help them with how to make better business decisions around their positioning, around staffing, merger, acquisition, succession stuff. I'm not qualified to help them do better work, there's lots of good help for that. So one of the strange, I never would have predicted this, but one of the strange areas where they seem to really soak up whatever sort of insight I and others can give, is around roles, particularly account management and project management. So, when you invited me to come on your podcast, I was eager to do that, because I just think it's such an interesting topic. To me it is and it should be more interesting to other people. But it's also so much more relevant than some of the things that we spend a lot of time worrying about. In other words, your clients will notice poor account management long before they notice work that isn't up to your standards. But we focus on the work more than we focus on how it's delivered and how we lead clients. So that's sort of why this is important to me. Jenny  You've described the agency account management role as the most difficult job in the agency. Can you tell me a bit more about why you think that? David   Yeah, and the last thing they need is a bigger head, right! So, account management people are strange, power hungry, very persuasive. The last thing they need is to hear that, but it's true, because it's the only role, well, I guess the principal has a little bit of this, but it's the only role where they have one foot firmly planted on both sides of the fence. I think of it as sort of like an ambassador, but it's even worse. So if I'm the US ambassador to China, then my allegiance is to the US. But I still have to see things through China's eyes. But then an account person has to be a lot more balanced than that. They can't give away the firm, but they have to be the clients advocate within the agency. And so that's why it's the most, I don't think it's the most important role, I think that's a PM, but I think it's the most difficult role for sure. And it's very few people who can do that role well. Let me just insert something, this strikes me every time I say this, I think, if somebody else were saying this, I'm not sure I would believe it, and it's that, everybody who is a great account person, is a failed something else. That's because you don't go to school to be an account person. You don't.  And nobody says when I grow up, I want to be an account person. They always went to school for something else. We know that because there is no schooling, I mean there's training and so on, but there's no schooling for it like formal schooling. So they've tried something else and discovered that they were really good at account management and they adopted that life. So it's strange, it's so important and yet we don't have a formal educational track for it. Isn't that strange, like we do for design and advertising? Jenny   It's so true. And what do you think are those magic skills that an account manager discovers that they're good at? David   Listening for sure. I think that's really critical. The ability to push back on a client without causing unnecessary offence. So, I think of it as sending a client to hell and helping them enjoy the trip, so to speak. So we're not losing the client, but we're definitely communicating something that needs to be said. I think also, the ability to grow an account, which I'm sure we'll talk more about at some point. So the client will have questions and you try to answer them, and then you ask questions. But the ability to ask really smart questions is, I don't think anybody is better at that than account people. Those would be probably the core skills, I think. And there are some core skills that don't exist in account people. That's great organisation, it's very rare to find a great account person who doesn't also need somebody following around behind them to clean up the mess, just honestly. Jenny   You made me chuckle with this. What do you think the problem is with expecting account managers to also do the project management role? Because when I work with agency account managers, they come to me with the title of account manager, but actually what they're doing is this hybrid role of managing projects and having to grow the account. David  Right? Well, part of the challenge there is simply ability to do both of those things. And this was a complete surprise to me in that when I was doing research around this, in the early 2000s, I wanted to see if there was a pattern, a personality profile pattern, that match certain roles at firms. And I started out because I had a conference in San Francisco for 50 creative directors. And I thought, all right, I have all these victims in one place, I'll just give them all this personality profile. And there was no pattern whatsoever. And it was kind of an expensive process, it cost me about 4000 bucks. So I thought, well, I'll just drop this, or maybe I should try one more thing. And I had an event coming up in Dallas with 40 account people. And I decided to give them all a personality profile again. And the difference was staggeringly different. I think it was 85/ 86%, whatever, that almost all, but two or three people, had the same personality profile. And that personality profile was not, it didn't indicate strengths around organisation, or objectivity, or process orientation. What it indicated was an ability to communicate well, to know where to push back, to take a relationship over forcefully to lead it. So, there are some people, maybe 20% of account people who are really good at PMing as well. But in most cases, what makes you a great AM, makes you a pretty terrible PM. To take this a little bit further, when you have an AM who's functioning in the role of a PM, often things get dropped, that's kind of obvious, but they also have a propensity to give away too much of the shop because they get lost in this desire to make the client happy, sometimes at the expense of the firm. And that's where that role gets a little bit weird where they're trying to straddle both sides of the fence. So when you have an AM doing a PM role, sometimes the work isn't as organised or buttoned up. And also they need the PM to be a balancing force so that we don't give away too much to the client. Jenny   I'm nodding because this is so true, and I think it's going to come as a really big food for thought for many agency owners who are actually thinking about this role. So, I mean, what happens for an agency that has the PM leading that client relationship? David   And that's particularly true with newer firms that are more slanted towards digital work for sure. But what happens there is two things. And the first could happen at any point and it tends to happen sooner rather than later. And that's that a PM will miss some cues that maybe the relationship is slightly off course. Their focus is on competence and objectivity and delivery, and they don't read some of the signals that the client is needing a slightly different treatment, they need a little bit more coddling and so on, a little bit more wrapped in relationship, that's the first thing that happens. The second thing that happens, and this doesn't show up for quite a while, it could be a year or a year and a half, but it's that the client typically doesn't grow as much as it could have if it was being managed by an AM. So a PMs perspective is to do great work and to not mess up. It's not to take risks and grow the account. The account person's job, the way they view it, is to constantly take risks and see what else we could do for the client. Not in a way that is a misuse of client funds, but like they just see opportunity in there. And  they're not worried about messing up from time to time, because they have enough confidence in their abilities to sort of save the account, and most of the time, that actually does happen. But they have this outlook of always wanting to grow an account. So that's what happens when you have a PM, functioning as an AM, is that they miss some personal cues sometimes, and in other cases, they don't grow the account. I want to mention, though, that we can't just rely on the fact that somebody is called a PM or an AM because people use those phrases. There are a lot of people called PMs who are actually functioning as AMs. And the opposite is true as well, there's quite a bit of confusion in this space I think. Jenny   I agree, absolutely. I agree. Was there anything in your findings, in your research, to show that the pure account manager enjoyed more the client interactions? Because sometimes when I've met the role of an account manager, but actually it's a PM role, they like to be very transactional, I've done that tick off the list. They're not the ones that naturally want to speak to the client or engage as much. Have you found anything in your research to show that that's true? David   Yes, it's absolutely true. And in DISC language, that's the personality profile that I use, that would be somebody typically, with a low 'I'. They don't need a lot of social interaction to be satisfied. And what they're doing is motivated by a genuine desire to serve and please the client, but they don't see the need for all of the relationship side, to them that's inefficient, and it's also not all that welcome. It takes energy for them to do that. Whereas the best account people are not always energetically from a relationship standpoint. What they do is they are really good at seeing how the individual client on the other end of the line wants to be interacted with. And then they adapt their style to that. So if the client prefers a brief email with two choices, that's what they get. If they prefer a long lunch or a drink to discuss a tough topic, then that's what they do. Relationship driven people are really good at seeing what other folks need and want and they deliver in that way. Somebody with a PM profile will default to less relationship management. Now the best ones can adapt a little bit, but they find it exhausting to have to pretend to be like an AM when in their hearts, they're PMs. Jenny   I just love this so much. During COVID, you ran multiple free webinars, and I know you attracted hundreds and hundreds of people from the agency space. During those webinars, you advised firms to keep the AMs and PMs and flex with the skill players. Can you tell me a little bit more about why you why you advise that? David  Yeah, it doesn't make sense on the surface. It doesn't seem obvious to me that that would be the right thing to do. It seems to me like we're in the business of doing advertising or creative or digital. So we got to keep those people and that the AMs and PMs are sort of redundant. And I don't believe that at all. I think that the core in American football, we call it role players and skill players. So the role players in this example are AMs PMs, and in some cases some strategists and also new business people. Those are the ones that make the core of your firm. And if that strikes you as odd, it's because you don't believe that that contribution is as billable as the other things, but like I said before, clients notice deficiencies in AMing and PMing long before they notice deficiencies in the work. They also won't notice much in their experience if you're working with a contractor who's a writer, as opposed to an account person who is a writer. So the core staff, the people that are with you all the time, the ones that they get used to are the AM and the PM roles, and then new business and in some cases strategy. And then all the skill players are the ones that you can assemble for a particular team at a certain time. Ideally, I think a client wants all those people full time and on staff. But when that's not possible, it's better to flex with the skill players and not the role players. Jenny   Lovely, thank you for explaining that. So when you start working with an agency, where do you typically see deficiencies in the performance of the account management team? David   Well, it always starts with having the right people in those seats. So if you're working with a firm, and they don't believe in account management, and this comes because they worked at an agency, for instance, and they wondered what they did, and they called them suits, and they thought they just needed expense accounts and ate up the budget. Right? That's a perspective that still lingers in this field. And it's, and that's because it, there are a lot of cases where that's actually true. So in that world, they diminish the role of an account manager, and they don't have one, that's one thing I see frequently. Another thing I think I see, and this just blows my mind, is the occasional firm where they don't think account management or project management is billable. Really, that's crazy. And there were a couple firms in the US, especially around the packaging side, where their clients wouldn't allow them to charge for it. So they discharged $400 an hour for design or something right, and those days are gone. I'm talking about modern firms who don't think that it's billable, or they just tack on some percentage on top of it. The other that I see, is assigning PMs to AMs and in that scenario, AMs are more powerful and persuasive. And so the PMs don't typically have as much power as they need in those relationships. And so the AM is sort of ordering the PM around and in my world AMs and PMs are exactly equivalent and need to create this healthy joint tension. Another area I see pretty frequently is, and this one makes me really angry honestly, and it's that we don't see separate career paths for PMs and AMs. Instead, we think that you start out as kind of an assistant to an AM, and then eventually, maybe we'll let you talk with a client every once in a while. And then when you're really good, you get to talk with a client. And that just diminishes the role of PMs. I think PMs are just as important as AMs and their career paths are completely different because, now you may start out as a PM and discover that wasn't the right fit for you and you bounce to an AM or vice versa, but the roles and the personalities and the outlooks are very different. That's one thing I see very frequently. Jenny   Where do you see it working really well? Have you got an example of where you've witnessed a PM and AM working seamlessly together? Because this is something that often a lot of people talk to me about, how do we actually establish roles and responsibilities? And who's going to speak to the client, who's going to lead the meeting? Where does one stop, start and the other one finish, etc. David  I think the aim should be the primary interface with the client all the time. Not because we're trying to protect the client from anybody else. In fact, the PM should be the primary backup contact and we're not trying to keep the PM from interfacing with the client at all, it's fine. But nothing should happen with the client that the AM doesn't know about. That's one of the basic ways to divide labour. I think one of the things that I'm hoping that people will get, is how to work better together and to create sort of that healthy tension. 30 years ago, before I was in the advisory business, I remember I won't mention his name but he used to say this all the time, that, and this was before there was much research about what made a great PM, and he would say, if you like your PM, you've got the wrong one. That's what he would say. And the idea was, that the very best PMs are sort of like taxi cab dispatchers, they're short, abrupt, to the point, matter of fact, and to some extent they are, but in the best scenarios, the AMs feel like, I could never get my job done without great PMs behind me. And PMs are so grateful that they're not AMs because that's not what they want to do. So there's this healthy tension that comes about between them. But it's not just about AMs and PMs working really well together, there are other systemic issues that can get in the way. So for instance, if you have an AM, who's having to manage a lot of accounts, they can't give the right attention to that, they can't be expected to grow those. I found that kind of the ideal number is one to four, one to five accounts. Or if, the salespeople are consistently delivering clients who are not a great fit, who don't trust the firm, they aren't spending enough money, they can't corral the decision makers, then as an AM you can't be responsible for those results, right. So it really is a picture of teamwork all working together. And, moving the firm forward, together, I have a lot of respect for both AMs and PMs. But I would say that, between those two, the one that needs more respect in our field than they get now is the PM side. The AM's are going to be okay on their own. They amass respect, that's part of what makes them good at what they do. The PMs don't, they're labouring in the background doing great work. And we notice them when something fails, but we don't necessarily notice something when things are great. Jenny  Have you seen evidence of how it affects a PM then, if they're not given the right attention, or they're not being recognised? What have you seen from firms that have that scenario playing out? David   Well, fortunately, PMs are often self motivated. And they're going to do a great job regardless until they just leave the firm. AM's get their feelings hurt, and you'll know if they're unhappy, right, a PM will just keep doing their job! But if you're going to stand out in this marketplace, first of all you've got to have a really brilliant positioning that sets you apart, I'm just assuming that, but after that, once you land a client, what clients really notice is brilliant account management and brilliant PMing, and the better, you can manage that with both of those branches, then the better off you'll be, it'll really give you a leg up in the marketplace. Jenny   I've got a little side question. You mentioned the sales team earlier on. Just curious, in your experience, where have you seen a good pass-over between the sales team and the account management team? Where do you see that? David   A lot sooner than it is? Jenny   I was expecting you were going to say that! David   This is such a mistake we make. So I view sales, not marketing, but sales as essentially assessing fit, and answering objections, and so on and setting the table. Once it looks like that prospect is going to begin working with the firm, then sales continue, but those sales are led by the account person. So the account person needs to be introduced very early in the process. If you don't do that, then these are the problems that occur. One is that the client will get attached or will bond with the salesperson who needs to leave the cave and go kill something else and drag it back. They can't afford to get dragged into being the account person. So that's one problem. The second problem is you don't want to count people to feel like they're inheriting all these promises that a salesperson made, right? It's just resentful. And a salesperson has no incentive not to make crazy promises just to close an account, right. And the third reason is that we really want to let the salesperson focus on what they're great at. So I'm a firm believer in introducing an account person very early in the process, and they actually close the first project with the client. And then the salesperson should never be seen by the client again. Now the only time you have a salesperson who feels obligated to insert themselves into the relationship is if the account person is not a capable seller or grower of that account, in which case they have to rely on the salesperson. That's a fault with the AM. That's not the way sales should work. Sales should only be about new business, not existing business. Jenny   Thank you. I'm sure a lot of agency leaders listening to this, we'll be thinking about that. That's great advice. And so, something that I read on one of your blogs, you said that you suggest agencies ask their clients to take a personality test, which I think is absolute genius idea. Can you tell me a bit more about that? David  Yeah. And if there's any qualms about it, you just give them yours and say, 'Hey, we're really big at this firm in trying to match up how we work with you based on what you prefer'. And so I don't know you well enough to know what those preferences are. But if you would be interested in taking this, then I'd love to set you up. And you might enjoy it. Here's mine, if you want to look it over and see what it says, And invariably, they'll take it. And then they'll say, 'Hey, could I get one of those for my partner too, I mean life partner...' And then there's lots of fun discussion. But even if you don't want to do that, there are some very simple two question sort of quizzes that you can ask yourself without ever talking to them to see what kind of personality profile they are. That way you'll know how to manage conflict, you'll know how to be efficient, but also give them the attention that they want. Are they somebody who likes to be in charge, and they want to have options? Is it somebody who wants to see all the details? Or maybe it's somebody who wants to see all the process step by step? Or it could be somebody that just wants to be inspired? You know, so it's important to understand how each client is different, and then treat them differently. You're not in the service business, you're in the expertise business, but there isn't any reason to not make the process as smooth as possible for clients, to whatever extent you can. Jenny   You mentioned earlier on that you use the DISC profile, do you recommend that one for clients as well? Is that your go to recommendation? David   It's not the most accurate one, the most accurate one is Kolbe or PI. But DISC is very accessible and inexpensive. It's where I did most of my research. There's some other pretty good ones too, like Myers Briggs, Indra. There's five or six that are really, very accurate scientifically, the rest are kind of not. But even some of those will be sort of useful, if nothing else it will be interesting. Jenny   Great, okay, thank you for that. So one of the observations that I've made from training account managers, is the lack of coaching and guidance from the agency leadership team. Can you tell me if you've experienced the same? David   Yeah, I have. And I would say, it's not just a failure in coaching, it's that they just don't know what they're doing. You know, they don't have anything to add to it right? That's not something that's common across all successful principals. The only thing that's common across all successful principals is that they are risk takers. Some of them are great account people, and a lot of them are not. They feel like, in the early days that their firm is successful because of their account management, which is not true at all. It's more because of their strategic insight. And so when they finally give that up and let somebody else do the account management, they discover how good that person is. And it's beyond what they ever could have imagined themselves. So I don't think it's so much a failure of leadership, I think it's just simply not having a lot to add to it. A lot of principals are really bad at account management, and they're even worse at project management. So it doesn't surprise me that it happens. I think that's why advisory practices like yours have so much opportunity out there, because there are principals who care about this, but they don't know what to do. And so they rely on an outside expert to help. Jenny   I think it's definitely a big gap. And that's why my programmes are at least three months, because I like to work with that manager over a period of time. So going back to the account management role, what would be your advice for someone listening, thinking, I really want to up my game, I really want to develop my career in account management. What's your advice for how they should do that to be successful in account management? David   Well, I think having an articulated point of view around, and this would be a lot easier if if, as an account manager you're working with firms who consistently are in the same space, whether that's vertical or horizontal positioning, if you're working for seven clients, and none of them have anything in common then I think it's very difficult for you to be a great account person. But if there's some commonality between them, then learning their field as much as possible, staying in touch with what's happening around it would be critical. And then learning great communication skills, maybe even signing up for some personal therapy, understanding yourself, understanding what your hot buttons are and how to talk yourself down off the ledge. I think networking with other account people is really good. Widely read as well, get feedback from right after a meeting, get feedbacks- anybody else from your team that was in there- like what went well there? What didn't go well? That's one of the difficulties with this field is that there's not just one very specific body of knowledge you go learn, it's really about being a better human more than anything. There's no role that's more human than the account person. And, so being self aware, learning how to read, learning how to de-escalate, those are all really critical. And I'm not even talking about like, understanding the particular nuances of your of your client work, which is big enough, right? Jenny   This is such good advice. I wish in my career, I'd started reading and seeking external counsel much, much earlier in my career. You know, I feel that much of my career, I started in the early 90s, in an account management role, and you feel like you're being pulled from pillar to post, not really having any commercial guidance as to what your role is. And so that's fantastic advice. And also understanding yourself because we are the principal communicators and that's our currency. David   Right. Something else I would add would be, and this is going to strike people as pretty strange, but go to Google and look up Theory of Change or Model of Change, and then flip to the image tab and see the 1000s of theories of change. And peruse those someday and come up with a model that's unique to your firm, about how you as a firm interact with your clients. How you bring them along, what's your theory of change. It's an area that not a lot of people have experienced, and we just innately know, at least we think we know, how to present a new idea to somebody and convince them of it. But if you spend a little bit more time, more like a scientist, and think about what is your own perspective on theory or models of change, it would help you as an account manager too. Jenny   That's great advice. I recently read a book, and there was some research that came out at the end of last year, about how we should bear that in mind when we're presenting ideas to clients. And they they use the principle of status quo bias. And they broke it down into what actually constitutes status quo bias. And some, examples of how you can overcome status quo bias. So you're saying exactly the same thing? I think that's brilliant, brilliant advice. So, what do you advise agency leaders do when they say to you that they want to grow their accounts? What are your go to pieces of advice for them? David  The single thing that I think is most important there is to keep simulating the first year you work for the client. So presumably, when you land a client, they were already working with somebody else. If they weren't, then they probably are not a good client. In other words, you're not the first agency they're working with. That's a sign of a client, that's a good fit. And they came to you because something about the previous firm was stale. They weren't reinventing things, they were just doing the minimum, whatever those things were, and you impressed them out of the gate. And you were a little bit surprised you landed it, and now you're doing everything you can to fill those expectations that they have. But then you slide into the same thing that the other previous agency did, and you have new clients coming along all the time. And you kind of forget these and you don't every year say, 'All right, let's not just modify last year's plan. Let's instead look at what would we do completely differently if we inherited this plan from another agency? What could we do differently?'  And I think that's the biggest thing you can do to grow accounts and to keep them. The goal isn't to keep them forever. The goal is to keep them for the right amount of time. And that could be for two years or five years, seldom is it longer than that. And the key to that, there are things out of your control obviously, but the key to that is to treat it like it's a new year every year and this is a client we're still really trying hard to impress. Jenny   That's great advice. And it's something that we talk about in the account accelerator programme, being proactive, coming up with new ideas. I read a study, and one of the questions to clients in this study was, 'When you change agencies, what are some of the primary reasons why?' And the top answer was 'Because they never gave us anything that we didn't ask for.' So it sums up what you're saying, don't rest on your laurels. You mentioned that typically on average, an agency would keep a client between two and five years. Just curious, what do you think happens after five years? Where do you see the problems occurring agencies have very long client relationships? David  So in the early days of a relationship, they're more likely to listen to you and they're more likely to pay you some sort of a premium. That tails off in time. It always does, it's just a matter of how long it takes to happen. I think agencies, especially agencies that are growing, and whose capabilities are changing faster than their client needs are changing, I think a healthy turnover of your client ratio is a really good thing. And it's not the way it is in the field though, you hear people bragging all the time about how we have our first client still 11 years later. And I think, if you have them for the right reasons, that's great. But it could be that neither of you is all that ambitious, I don't know. I think you want to have an episodic relationship with your clients. The more it's just a steady presence, the less they're going to listen to you carefully, or pay you much money. You don't want to be the occupying force that moves into people's farmhouses and eats their crops and dates their daughters, that's not what we want. We want the deliberating force that falls from the sky to cheers and fixes things and then moves out. That's more the relationship we should have with our clients. There's exceptions to that. But in general, we're too in love with long clients. And that's part long term relationships with clients and that's partly because we suck at new business, and we're terrified of losing clients. Jenny   It's so true. Do you think those ones that get stuck are just disrespected? The respect is somehow diminished if you've got the client for too long? David   Well that's the default for sure. Now, if you are really good at consistently, over time, looking for ways to grow that clients presence in their marketplace, then that's very different, right. But it's not that many firms that do that. Most firms sort of slide into this old couple routine, where I know where I'm supposed to sit on the couch, and like what I'm supposed to do after dinner, and it's not all that exciting. It's just what we do, this is not my marriage, this is somebody else, but we're not taking the risks, it's not like a dating relationship. And so you don't want the client relationship to get into the old couple thing where you're just doing, because nobody wants to pay a lot of money for that. And people aren't listening too carefully to each other at that point. Jenny   Interesting because, you said, unless you're helping them grow their own presence, which is so true, but in order to do that, you have to have an understanding of their business, and what their challenges are, and what their problems are, so that you can help. And then it comes back to your previous point about, if you're not specialised enough, and you're spread so thinly across so many different clients, both in volume, but also in industry, and how you're going to get to that point where you do have the expertise to offer the right value? David   Yeah, exactly. In the end, you're kind of cheating your clients, if you aren't setting this up in a way that really serves them well. And that's why I'm such a believer, here's one thing that just leads to everything I do, and that's let's be better business people, there's a lot of people helping you do better work. I want you to be a better business person, not just for your sake, but for their sake. I want you to force your clients to listen to you, not because of some power trip, but because you know what you're talking about and it's in their best interest to do that. You need to amass this sort of power, and then use it for good, not use it for evil (and that's probably some Bible verse, I don't mean it in the Bible sense), but there's something about, we're an unregulated marketplace. And the barrier to entry is non existent. Tomorrow I could be whatever I want to be in this field. And because of that, there's this sloppiness around how we do this work. And it's no wonder that we're kind of later in the process, we're not paid as well as other professional service providers. I want to change that because there are a lot of people in this field who are really good at what they do, and they deserve to feel that spotlight of the impact that they're having on their clients. And that is often mediated through great account management. You don't find many really successful firms who don't have great account people as well. Jenny   I so agree, and I want to up the quality of what we do. I mean, I know you did a whole episode on this, but you talked about the consulting firms, and I was looking at a chart the other day about how much these consulting firms are kind of taking over so many different creative agencies. You've got the likes of Accenture, Deloitte, and I can't help but think it's only a matter of time before those more proficient consulting skills they have, sort of blend seamlessly with the creative agency component. You know, I can't believe that. And I don't know what's going on behind the scenes with that. But I think we do need to up our game. David   Yeah, absolutely. The only thing they can't do is this wild, insane, essential creativity, that they they have not figured out how to do that. That's the only trump card we have. I need to think of another word than trump card. Right? It's the only thing we have, and and they keep buying firms. But if we get our act together, and are really good at delivering strategy, in the right context of account management, then we can win that game. I really do believe there's something this industry has that the consulting industry doesn't have. Jenny  How many independent firms that you work with have a planner? David An account  So you're coming from the UK, only the agencies here call them account planners. In my structural model, I call them planners and people look at me, like what are you talking about? Because you guys, you guys invented account planning. So they would typically call them strategists, or researchers. And I would say that probably, maybe a third to 40% of them have somebody who is specifically dedicated to that. Otherwise, they kind of throw it into the account management side or they may have a contractor on the outside. So that's an area where an agency could beef up their offering significantly. Jenny  Yes Do you advise people to consider having a strategist? David  Yeah, absolutely. A strategist should be a part of that role player staff that isn't a contractor and it needs to be an essential part of your offering, it needs to be the first thing you do at the outset of a new client relationship. Jenny   Fantastic. How do you think the agency business model, David, is going to evolve in the future? David  Well, we haven't typically lead much evolution there, we've typically more responded to what's happening. The shakeout from 2020 is a little bit unclear to me. I do think agencies got more comfortable using remote folks. And so there'll probably be more contractor relationships that they'll get comfortable using and assembling a team. I do think that's probably the biggest change that's coming, in that there'll be core teams and then it'll be more like the Hollywood movie studio model where we assemble a team for a year and a half with this client project and then we disassemble or we go to the next thing or something like that. I think that's one thing that will be different. You have a lot of young people coming along who don't have any experience in this field. And so there's a lot of things they need to learn. But I love the fact that they're not coming with a lot of assumptions. And so they're thinking very differently around pricing, and around delivery and mix of services. So I think that's going to be really good for our industry. I wouldn't want to be running the firm, having done so for 30 years and doing things the way I was 30 years ago. I think that's probably a recipe for disaster. I do think software is going to take over more and more of what we do from the bottom and from the top, these consulting firms are going to take more and more what we do. I think we're going to have to get more into the advisory space and less into the implementation space. And all of those things are really good pressures to have because I'm not sure we would change without those pressures. Jenny  I agree. Have you noticed a trend in the US as there is here in the UK? I was on a Beamer roundtable and there was a discussion around titles of account managers, and lots of agencies were taking the decision to change the title to consultant. Are you seeing the same trend in the US? David   Yeah, and it's a little empty frankly. As if this is really going to change things. For one thing, people don't want to be consultants when they grew up, trust me on that one! That's just window dressing, it's just one of those silly little things we're doing telling ourselves that we're really making a difference. I don't think it matters to clients all that much. You want to act like a consultant for sure. But whatever you call yourself, I don't think matters. We've gone through all kinds of different titles. And to me, that's all window dressing. I'd concentrate on more the essence of what somebody's doing. Jenny   Are you seeing any trend for employees of the agency having the confidence now to set up on their own? David  Oh, sure. Yeah, whenever you have a widespread disruption, like 2020 was and before that a little bit, and 2011 a lot, 2008 a lot in 2001, people are let go, and they just are forced to essentially work on their own, and they discover they enjoy it, and it goes really well. And so we'll look back on this time, last half of 2020, and the first half of 2021 and see lots of new firms founded, and that's good. That's really good. I think that's the kind of fresh blood that we need. There'll be a real distinction though, between, you're not going to find a lot of people starting firms who weren't already in this space, so there won't be quite as much learning as has happened in other high response economic times. So they're going to bring some bad habits with them because of where they were. The other thing that's happening is that on the later end of things is that principles are not staying in this space, as long as they did before. It used to be a life sentence, you did this and then then you didn't do it, and then you didn't work anywhere else, that's not the case at all anymore. People are discovering in their 40s, that there's one or two more careers after this, and they're leaving the field. So there's a lot more churn in the space, it's a lot more to keep up with, a lot more interesting, a lot more change overall I think it's good. Jenny   Are you seeing principals, kind of building and selling and then building again, and selling quite quickly. David  Some of them are, but they're usually not building on the second run, they're not building another agency like this. It's not a great investment to build an agency like this if you already have one and you run it well, there's a good chance you can sell it if you do things, right, but it's not the easiest kind of place to sell. So what they're building instead is like a software company or a product company. They've learned how to do those things around the edges, and it's a lot more interesting to them, it's a lot more scalable to them. One of the things that they discovered in running the firm is that there are a lot of things that come with it that they just don't enjoy. And so they're trying to get out of that requirement, and they're trying to build a company that is more scalable to them. Jenny   What kind of things do they tell you that they don't enjoy? David   Managing people is top of the list. Nobody got into this field wanting to manage people, nor did they think about what gross would mean. Gross for them means doing less of something that they enjoy, and more of something they don't in many cases, and that's managing people. That's the biggest thing, and especially if you are conflict averse, and you don't like coaching people, then the staff is just a consistent daily pain in the neck. If you're really good at those things, and there are a lot of people who are really good at that stuff, they don't necessarily enjoy the process as much as they enjoy seeing somebody's career really take off and see how somebody leaves. That's the other thing that's happening too is you'll have more boomerang employees. So somebody who works someplace, goes somewhere else, often for the money or because a family member is moving, and then they come back and they work at the same place that's happening a lot more than before too. And that's satisfying, because it gives the principal this sense of how much impact they're having. Jenny   Do you see a big impact for those agencies that really establish culture very well in their agency? Really genuinely, putting people first? David There's a really significant benefit to the employees and to their job as a leader. Not so much in terms of the client experience or the effectiveness of the work, and that's where I think we mix things up. You need to do great from a cultural standpoint, because it's the right thing to do because your employees deserve it. Not because it's a point of differentiation in the marketplace. We're talking about culture way too much publicly instead of just doing it. Jenny   Totally agree. David, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing so many insights. I've made loads and loads of notes, and I know everyone listening here is going to get some a-ha moments! So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today. I really appreciate it. David   You're welcome, Jenny. Thank you for having me.

Transcript:  Jenny  So Simon, would you mind spending a couple of minutes talking about you, your background, and how you made that transition from agency account management through to agency planning, and then eventually, agency owner?  Simon  Yeah. Hi, Jenny. Thanks for having me on. I'm actually a really big fan of the podcasts I've being listening to it since you started. So, I'm quite, I feel quite honoured to be asked to come and come and talk to you today. So, um, my background is classic agency sorts of management. I started in London in the early 90s and I worked at a part of the Abbott Mead Vickers group, then part of the Ogilvy group, and then I went to work in a brand consultancy called Light and Coley who don't unfortunately exist any longer. And my role was, in my very first job, was an account exec. I learnt very much how to do client service, I was looking after advertising and integrated marketing accounts. And then as I started to progress through my career, I started to become a little bit more interested in the business side of things. And as I got to my last role, which was with Light and Coley, which was an international brand consultancy, I started to want to have a deeper conversation with clients. And I started to become more and more curious about how organisations operated, about how you position brands, about how you develop organisational culture and things like that. So, I started to become extremely curious. I was always really inquisitive as a child, and never ever had any shortage of questions for people. And it was at that point, I started to work with internal planners and external consultants as well, and started to  learn the frameworks of brand planning. And it was at that point that I took the leap from managing clients to  consulting with clients.  Jenny  It's funny, actually, because when you describe the account management role that you had, and your curiosity in the client’s business, do you feel that that is actually a prerequisite for the account management role?  Simon  I think curiosity is one of the key drivers of great account managers, the ability to show interest, ask questions, dig deep to unearth the background to a client's business or business problem for example. I think all of these things provide a really great canvas in which then you can then build creative briefs or build project briefs. So if you don't have that innate ability to drive into the clients business, I think that you'll you will operate on the very surface, and therefore probably have a transactional relationship with your client rather than a deep relational engagement. Jenny  I totally agree. So how do you think that having the role of agency account manager, agency planner, do you think that that fundamentally set you up for success as an agency owner? Simon  Yeah, I would say that all of those experiences provided the framework for running a business really, I can't think of a better grounding to start a creative business than the client services area. I mean, if you think about it, it's so deep, and it's so broad, you’ve got, the first thing is managing people, managing clients, , in providing levels of service, which, , delight, your client portfolio on a daily basis. I mean, that's such an important principle to learn in business. The second thing about account managers is that by their very nature, they're there to help grow accounts. So therefore, they have an ability to work with clients to grow their business to provide betterment to their customers, rather than just deliver against projects. So therefore, there's a bit of a new business angle to client service as well. Then you've got project management, which is obviously about being really super organised, great communication skills, all those sorts of things, resource management in terms of people and then finally and really, really super important, of course, is budget management. And it was at Light and Coley actually, strangely that we were taught how to run a micro P&L for our client portfolio. So, I learned about how to , what was the difference between revenue, what was the cost of goods sold, what was , gross profit, what would the internal cost be and therefore, what would be profit before tax and, and net net? So, it gave me a really great source of understanding of how to, , forecast, from a financial point of view, how my small portfolio of clients would actually make the agency money. And taking all of those experiences forward. I started my first agency back in 1998, which was called The Field. Jenny  Wow, I didn't realise that you had another agency beforehand. Just stepping back one step, I think that's phenomenal. And that's the first time I've ever heard any agency providing training around a profit and loss account. I mean, yeah, I think that should be mandatory, really, isn't it? Because if we're going to be in front of clients, having business level conversations, , and we're looking for business challenges, business outcomes, you need to speak the language of business. And the fundamentals of business is the P&L. So I think that's phenomenal. The other question before we talk a little bit more about The Field, do you think for someone listening, who is in a client service role, that's thinking about starting their own agency, do you think it's necessary to have to do the planning role first? Because obviously, in your role as a planner, you are getting deeper into the client's business, won't you and being very consultative Do you think that's important to do before you make the leap to do your own agency? Simon  No, not? Not really, I think that it depends on what type of business you want to be. There are some really good creative businesses out there that are not strategically oriented. A lot of businesses will claim to be strategically oriented, but there are a lot of really great businesses, which just do great creative work or great digital work. So having a planning capability is not necessary for success. It was just that I wanted to, rather than focus on advertising and integrated marketing, which is where I started my career, I wanted to focus on brand, brand strategy, and therefore this gave me a competitive advantage. And it was through trial and error of my first few forays into doing actual brand strategy. I look back now, and I cringe at how naive and basic some of my solutions were, but it was, it was my determination to learn and determination to  keep practising keep getting better, and that really  drove it forward. So I don't think that you need to have a planning background. There are also many great planners, who you can go out and employ if you can afford it. And at the moment within our agency, Mr B and Friends, we've got  three outstanding planners who are far better at the job than I was ever. So, it's always great to be able to do that. Jenny  So tell me, take me back to that moment where you were employed in the agency as a planner, what was the moment or what happened for you to start to think I'm going to start my own agency? What was the spark? Simon  So I was working on a relatively well known retail bank. And I was an account director. And I started to work with the planning team on the positioning of this well-known retail bank. And the information that I was exposed to from the planning team was information I've never seen about a business before. And it got me really interested. And the more and more I dug, the more and more I thought that's exactly what I wanted to do. And I started to shadow the planning teams, started to move into the role. I started to form opinions, have conversations, I started to position myself up the client chain from the marketing department into the senior leadership team. And it was at that moment that I knew that that's what I wanted to do. So I was given opportunities within that agency to work on other brand strategy work. And it was at the point of, it was around 1998 that I thought, I'm going to give this a go and I left my job without any clients, just with some contacts and some confidence and it worked. It was great. And what was interesting was, it was because of the reputation that I generated as a relatively decent Client Services person that enabled me to have a relatively good network of clients, and it was those clients that became The Field's first clients. Jenny  Wow. So you'd done the groundwork? Simon  Groundwork was done, Jenny  Just taking you back a tiny step. What was that information that the planning team exposed you to? That you hadn't been exposed to? I'm just curious. Simon  Yeah. So it was information about how the bank made money. It was distribution strategies, it was internal culture, it was positioning within the competitive landscape, all of these sorts of things. When I was in Client Services, I would probably get surface level of information rather than that deep level of, of source of information. I wouldn't read an annual report, for example, but the annual report is absolutely where , you find out everything about your client, or your prospects business, . It's information like that, that I suppose I just wasn't exposed to. Jenny  And I suppose, having gone through that journey yourself, do you now, I know we're jumping forward and back because we're at The Field, but now I want to talk about Mr. B. I'm thinking as having gone through that journey, and realised that was a massive revelation, realising how useful that information was, and how much it sparked you to think, wow, this is actually what I should have been knowing about the business? How do you now run your team? Do you make sure that everyone's exposed to that, or kind of set the task of looking for that type of information about the business? Simon  Yeah, I think that there's a slight difference, though, because when you are in a planning context, your role is very, very different to what say, an AD, Account Director might be, and therefore the client will see you in a slightly different way, because you're there to solve a different problem. And I think that as an natural consequence of the client's perception, they will provide you with the information that they feel is necessary for you to get the job done. And so therefore, it's not always, I mean, the amount of NDA's I have to sign for example, is a really great example of the difference between a planner and an AD. Planners are exposed to business sensitive information, your client services, generally speaking, are exposed to information about the project. And I see that there is a difference there. So within Mr B and Friends, we have a fantastic planning department, we encourage all of our client services people to learn as much about the business as the planners are learning. But of course, we have to also respect the fact that they are doing two different roles. And you can do the role together because I did it. , when I started my first business, I did the role I was the AM plus I was the planner, as well, I was also the chief cook, bottle washer and everything else! But the point being, you can do it, but you can't do it at scale. And that's the point, , you cannot, it takes a lot of mental availability for a planner to immerse himself into a business and have that time to immerse themselves to research, to have those stakeholder conversations, to think, to come up with solutions. And then to provide the platform for everybody else to do their job brilliantly. Imagine trying to do that over three or four accounts. It's really, really difficult. And that's why the planning role and the AM role at scale has to be separate. Jenny  So tell me about, again, going back, you started The Field, you were everything to everybody - there's my account management hat, there's my agency owner hat, there's my planner hat. How did you then scale it? Because I'm sure there are people listening also that maybe are in the early stages of starting their agency thinking, this is all becoming quite unmanageable, but I don't quite know how to then grow. So how did you do that transition? Simon  Oh, it was just really incredible hard work, long hours. And the first thing that I did was to build up a war chest, a cash war chest. So, I try to make everything profitable from day one so I could put some money in the bank. And that will enable me to bring people in to share the heavy lifting, so to speak. And so it was, I mean, in those days when I was running The Field, this is when I was starting out and the planning, the projects weren't as big, the clients weren't as important and things like that. So, it was much more The Field is much more of a comms, brand comms agency than it was a strategy sorts of business. But yes, so all of those different things, it was just about a lot of hard work, a lot of application, running through walls and just trying to keep the quality high and the clients happy. And then it scaled. And The Field was only a very small business when you got to 11 people, sub 1 million pounds in fee income, but it was a really successful little agency, and I learned so much running that business, good stuff and bad stuff. Jenny  I can imagine. What happened, did you sell the agency? Or did you close the agency? What happened? Simon  Well, here is an incredible coincidence, because we specialised in the adventure travel market. And when SARS hit in 2003, most of our clients stopped spending money. So we had leveraged the business, painted ourselves into a corner, and revenue just really slowed down. And so I couldn't believe that we would have another source of respiratory problem that would really kill a load of other agencies, nearly 20 years later. But, so I managed to sell the business to a larger marketing services group that was looking to put a brand offer into their comms offer. And so we became the branding department of that larger business. Jenny  You must be Simon, one of the only people that could actually put up their hands and say, I've been here before with the Coronavirus, because you were there with SARS. And you built the agency, the niche that was going to be most affected. I mean, because it has been, , exceptional what we've been through. But, so tell us about what were the biggest challenges for you? So, okay, so you sold Mr. B? Sorry, you sold The Field? And then you started, Mr. B. Were you, how did that transition happen? Simon  So, I had to stay around for a couple of years, with the company that acquired The Field and I always knew I would go back into agency ownership. One of the interesting pieces of advice I got was, a long time ago, was that people in profit, sometimes they don't work well together. And so when I started Mr B and Friends, I'd learned a lot of lessons about creating overhead, during the days of The Field, and I was keen to try to go into the market again as a consultant. So on my business card, when it said Mr B and Friends, it just simply said 'Brand and Creative Consultants'. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to take what I'd learnt over the years and go in and help to unravel the plate spaghetti that is often a client's business, and to provide simplicity and clarity around brand strategy, positioning, brand architecture, and all those sorts of things. And the Friends, all of these guys, were freelance contractors that I had generated my black book of, great people who could then come in and work with me on implementation programmes so identity, comms, digital and things like that. And what happened after a couple of years, it just got a massive head of steam again, and all of a sudden, I was working 16 hours a day and I could see burnout happening. But the biggest thing for me really was the fact that I could see the quality was slipping, and I really needed a partner in the business. And so I reached out to my good friend and ex colleague, Steve Richardson, who was then in Auckland, and he was the creative director of DDB Interbrand. And I sold him the idea of coming back to the UK and partnering up. And so that's what he did. And he put his family on a plane and all of his goods and chattels in a container, sent it back. And we said, right, let's build this thing. Because we had the foundation of outstanding clients. We had really good reputation. We had opportunities, and we just needed to get on and do it. So that's what we did. Jenny  So looking back on that moment, again, for anyone listening, thinking of doing the transition, would you advise people to really consider it earlier? Because it sounds to me like you thought you were going to be a consultant, then you started getting freelancers to support you, then you made that transition of having employees and then you thought, well, I actually need a partner, do you think it's imperative to have a partner? Or I'm sorry, I'm asking so many questions. But talk to me about that moment because I think it'll be useful for people to maybe consider different ways of doing this. Simon  Yeah, I think it depends, you've got to ask yourself what type of business you want to develop, I mean, when you take on a partner, you certainly lighten the load, and you can get complementary skills, there's just no way that one person can have all the skills needed to develop a really successful creative business. So, I knew that Steve, because we'd worked together, he was at The Field, I knew that Steve was, had the right metal to be a business owner, that, I mean, level of craft in his work, good at people management, great sorts of alignment with my worldviews and values and things. But most importantly, that run through the wall commitment to just get the job done. And, until whatever, , until it's done thing. And I think that's what was interesting. Was it, do I want to have a 100% of  something very small, that was all about me and so therefore, was a lifestyle business, or did I want to have an equal share in something that could grow and scale and bring other people on board? And  eventually, if we wanted to have an event, that might be a possibility? So, I don't think I would ever regret bringing a partner on board is just helped so much. And I think it's a really positive thing, but it's about finding the right partner. And I do know people that have selected the wrong partners. So it's important that there is an affinity or some knowledge of that person's working pattern, what they believe in, what they value, all those different things. Jenny  And it sounded like you had experience of working together with Steve, so you to kind of you knew what it was going to be like. Okay, so, just to finish off this story about the agency. So Steve, joined you? And then did you just find from that moment onwards, that the journey was easier for you personally? Or was it new challenges, new types of problems to face? Simon  New opportunities more than problems. I think that that's, that was the motivating thing, it was two very seasoned  practitioners, in that hilarious moment that they're almost like a bootstrap startup mode. I mean, I remember, our first office,  there was sewage coming up through the floor. And, we were networking our computers, by sticking two sorts of  cables into the back of each computer. It was brilliant, it was exhilarating. And all we were focused on was building great relationships with clients, doing great work and getting fair compensation. And so it was it was a moment. And then Steve had the requisite skill in terms of understanding what would be a great employee for a studio that he was going to build, or who would be a great friend to do that piece of work over there, if we needed to continue using the friends network. So it was an exhilarating time, and  full of energy, making  great decisions and bad decisions. But, we were doing something together. Jenny  Love it, love it. And you said that you focused primarily on relationships? Can you share any tips around what did that actually look like? How did you create those strong relationships? Simon  Yeah so, and I believe that this is where the planning part of my career helped massively, because we weren't ever a transactional type of business, we have never been a transactional type of business. And I think that the only way that you can build deep, long standing relationships with your clients is to really get under the skin and to be seen as a trusted advisor. And so therefore, you have to have the vernacular, you have to have the understanding, you have to learn the technical parts of your client’s business, no matter what their business is. I mean, some of our some of our clients are pretty, pretty dry. I think, I mean, we've got clients in the pension space for example. But what I couldn't tell you about self-invested personal pension isn't worth knowing, because I put the hard yards in to learn the client's business, even understanding their jargon, their lingo, and everything else because then you become an active participant in the conversation. And when you have that level of depth, you become a trusted adviser, because you're not thinking just about the brief at hand, you've got a more 360 view. And that is for me, which was the really powerful thing. And then with Steve, like, also being a very much a strategic thinker, we were able to deliver brand, comms positioning sorts of advice to our clients, as well as wonderful, inspiring creativity and execution. So it became, it was, that was our whole focus, but , build those great relationships really have them cemented. And the other thing I would say about that, is that my word, the equity that that gives you, because when things go wrong, invariably they do, the client will remember the investments that you've made into their business. So I have a saying about giving without the expectation of receiving. I've always thought that that is a really important trait, no matter what you're doing in in the agency world. And I am still receiving now, inquiries for major, major pieces of work from people that I worked with 25 years ago. Jenny  Wow. So Simon, as your agency grew, and you weren't, you and Steve weren't the key people who were getting under the skin of the business, and really understanding the language that the clients were using and understanding their environments, and really micro level, and I can see why that, , developed really strong relationships. What happened when you started employing more people? Did you feel a sense of 'Oh, they're not gonna be able to do it as deeply as me?' Or was there any moment that you felt a little bit of loss of control? And how did you kind of cope with that? If you did? Simon  You can read my mind! So, absolutely, absolutely. Because we had a certain quality that we would just refuse to dip below. And I think that when the agency got to about 15/20, people, I certainly started to become a blocking point, because I was still doing a lot of the brand work, the brand planning work, then. And I certainly started to become a blocking point. And, when you bring new people in, obviously, they have their own processes and perceptions of what quality looks like and things like that. So, I think that there was a point, when we started to get worried that the magic that we'd created in the early years, was starting to get watered down a little bit. And so therefore, that was when we decided it was really important to re-energise the business with some pretty senior hires. And we've made a number of senior hires. Two really amazing hires one in Kate Gorringe, who's our creative director, who basically is Steve's 2IC. And Kate bought in such a level of experience into the team, not just from a creative point of view, but also from a studio management point of view as well. And that freed up Steve up to develop, to continue developing the creative products of the agency. And from my point of view, I, we bought in Adam Partridge, who's our planning and strategy director. Adam has taken what I was doing, and really accelerated it and made it significantly better. And that enabled me to then start to grow the business in other ways, as well. So, I think that having that humility to be able to accept that you need people better than you, is a really fantastic trait for a leader to have. And, and yeah, they came in, and they started to build their own departments and take what we had done and just make it better. Jenny  Did you, was there any I mean, Adam was obviously very experienced anyway. But did you have any kind of training for Adam in the way that you were doing things with clients? Or did you have a  coming together and sharing your approaches? Simon  Yes, definitely. So what was fantastic was I, I shared with Adam, our process that we like to do and what and what, how we define brand, strategy and brand frameworks. And he came in, he really liked what we had done already, but he identified areas in which we could improve it. And that's exactly what he did. So effectively, the thread of what I had started is still there, but you can just see that it's supercharged. Now it's much better, Jenny  Do you I mean, now you've freed yourself up to run the agency and have more of the vision and the strategy, do you position your agency in terms of favouring a certain sector of the market? Have you got quite a narrow focus with your positioning? Simon  So that is a really an amazing question because agency positioning is the hot topic. How do you create a hugely highly differentiated agency? One of the fears, of course, is that by going through the positioning, the true positioning process, you end up actually reducing your addressable market to the point of even one or two  sectors and things like that. So what we've done is that we, if you go to our website, you'll just see it says brand expertise. Okay, that's what we do. And brand is a transferable and scalable business discipline. And so that's what you will see from the outside, but when we actually go to market, we will talk about brand expertise in and we have two really core sectors. The first is the financial services sector. And the second is technology, media and telecom. So we do work outside of those. But those areas are the founding sectors of the agency and still the two verticals that we have got the strongest portfolio in, and the most reputation. So yeah, we have a broad positioning around what we do. But we also tried to create distinction for our brand, by talking about no added nonsense, we try to just get to the point, we talk in very straight terms, we do not sell clients something that they do not need. If a client comes to us with a business problem, the answer is not always a brand strategy solution, , we might actually send them away and ask them to go and speak to another friend or another agency. So what we're trying to do is create an identity for the business on how we do things. And brand expertise is what we do. Jenny  I love that. I mean, you said this earlier on but I think the sign of a good plan for me is simplification, the ability to simplify. So I love the no added nonsense. And I've been through your website, I think it's fantastic. And also sometimes, presumably, for clients that come to you with a problem, it's defining whether that is the problem that you need to deal with, right? Simon  Yeah, of course. I mean, you should never prescribe until you've diagnosed. And to borrow a term from Blair Enns, actually, but it's interesting, we spend a lot of time in the immersion phase in order to help the clients to understand the business problem. And the types of conversations that we have are so wide and varied. I mean, that's why I love working in the agency world, I don't think I could ever be client side, because I don't think I would have the discipline just to work on one brand. But so we have loads of different clients coming to us with different problems. And what we're really good at is getting to what matters most and actually helping the clients to either confirm, validate or change their opinion as to what's needed to be done. And that's where the strategic nature of brand planning becomes so exciting because you are effecting change at an organisational level, not just at a marketing level, we're talking about, we're talking about the fortunes of organisations, we're talking about people's jobs and the role, the culture in which they operate in. And then of course how the world sees that organisation. It's a really exciting business to be in. And it's the thing that the agency is set up to do and it's the bit that motivates people more than anything else. Jenny  What is that skill that you have, that allows you to do that, because not everybody can go into a client's business and look at, to use your words, the spaghetti, the - we've got this, we're doing this and another and make some sense of it? And then also to simplify it enough, so that you identify the key problem and then start addressing it. So tell me about, if someone's listening to this, maybe they're thinking about going into the planning role, or maybe an account manager wants to transition over to the planning role. What are the skills that you think someone that's really good at the role has? Simon  Okay, I think that a core skill is to understand how business works okay. So I think it's really important that you understand how your client makes money and what prevents them from moving forward. And I think that once you actually can start to picture, the different departments of an organisation, you can then start to understand each individual  part on how it all sits together, it's that, , I'd never say that Mr. B and Friends is a business consultancy, but there is a level of business consultancy in what we do. And so having the frameworks in which to , I suppose segment business problems, having the confidence and I suppose the parameters that question and to dive deep into an organisation is really, really important. Having past experience because we work on, well, how many, how many clients have I worked with over the years, , probably hundreds. And you've probably seen all of the problems in common sorts of problems that other businesses in other sectors have had. So, drawing on that like, huge resource of , within your  memory in your experience. And then breaking things down into smaller bite sized chunks. Somebody once said to me that  if you try to eat a salami in one go, you'll choke on it. So slice it up into small parts, and work on each part, and then put it back together. So I think that the ability to step back, see the big picture, and break up the problems into small bite sized chunks, and then start to elegantly put them back together in a logical way that will enable the client to also move forward, unblock a problem that might may exist, because the problem may be in the market, or maybe internal. And to then move forward. Jenny  Really, really good. I think not enough agencies actually have that level of business consultancy acumen. And I think, our industry, there are so many management consultancies that are taking over, buying up creative agencies left, right and centre, you've got the Accenture's of the world, you've got the PwC. And that trend, I mean, I use one of the charts, the trend that's happening, it's only a matter of time before that traditional management consultancy skill blends quite nicely with the creative skill, and then they have something really powerful. I mean, I don't know what it's like behind the scenes and internally, whether that's all joining up, but certainly, I've noticed a trend of agencies starting to change the title of account director into consultant. So I think there's definitely a trend. I mean, can you say, Simon, I know you've probably worked with hundreds of businesses, but can you say that there's like top three business problems, broadly, that businesses come to you with?  Simon  Yeah, definitely. So I think the top three challenges that we get will be around positioning. So an organisation is unsure of the value that it delivers in to their consumers and in relationship to their competitive landscape. So their positioning may be set up in the past and not fit for the future. The second, I think, is probably brand architecture. So there's a lot of consolidation going on in many vertical sectors. There's a lot of money, private equity money, and VC money and everything swirling around. So there's a lot of companies who are on the acquisition trail, and that prevents that presents itself a distinctive problem because, , how do you integrate an organisation into a larger and swallow it up? What do you do? Do you kill it? Do you track transition it? What's the migration programme? So we do a lot of consulting around that. And then the third is about creating distinction around visual and verbal identity where, it's just not connecting with people, it's not motivating. And when you've actually got a really exciting positioning statement, how do you then bring that to life? And how do you make it connect externally and internally? And I think that when you combine, I mean, we sometimes we get briefs, which have all three elements of that going on, and those are the really exciting brand programmes that we run. But sometimes the work's done internally sometimes and we validate and sometimes the work, , is done with us. There was a fourth one I'd like to just add, if that's okay, it's around organisational culture as well. And we are doing so much work around EBP at the moment, employer brand and setting, really inspiring  internal culture, in order that people can really understand that the business is brand and brand is business and,  , what we hoping to do when we do internal work is that we're creating an army of ambassadors for the brand and at least, at the very least they can articulate what their organisation stands for and what it's all about. That's the hygiene factor. But actually, some of the work that we've done is about helping to retain talent, helping to attract the very best talent, creating an employer reputation, which is outstanding. And we've been doing that since day one. Jenny  Wow. Do you work with external consultants also, so where your work finishes, and then perhaps, I can just see that, is there a cultural specialist that trains the team in making sure everyone is, , talking about the company in the same way? I mean, do you have a network of different companies that you bring in at certain points that you work with? Simon  Yeah, certainly. But we also have the experience and talent with the internal team as well. So yeah, so we've got that internally organised and there will obviously be certain people who are specialist in the area of talent, HR law, and things like that, so that's important. And I know of a lot of internal comms consultants that are available, and they operate with us on a friends basis as well. So yeah, but we do have that talent in house, it's become really important to our own proposition. Jenny  I think there must be agency leaders thinking we don't currently have a planning function within our business. You mentioned before that it was a big hire for you, your first ever kind of Director of Planning? At what point in an agency's development would you say that having a full-time planning person is essential? Simon  Yeah, earlier than we invested, I can tell you, but I'll just say that we waited and got the very best, so it was great. I think that when you get to some critical mass within the business and the conversations with clients are oriented around their organisational strategy or brand and things like that, I think you'll get a know, I mean, we should have brought a Head of Planning in when I was getting swamped, which would have been around that 15  head counts really. We did work with freelancers, and brought them in, but they just weren't invested in that they were hired guns, , they'd come into a great job and everything but then they'd go off. And what you need, when you have that long term account with a client, is that you need the planning capability there all the time. It's like a corporate memory bank, and you don't get that when a freelancer has done the work. So I would have said around 15 people, I mean, at our height, the agency got about 42 people, and we have 4 or 5 in the planning team. Jenny  Would you say that's the reason why you managed to have these long-term relationships with your clients, because you have that planning function, is that a big contributing factor? Simon  I think is a contributing factor. And it keeps the agency relevant, it helps to do, it should fuel the account growth plans and things like that. It's not always the case, I have to say, but I think that it provides a different level of depth to the relationship beyond the brilliant work that the client services team are doing. And it's that intelligence and 360 vision, which unlocks future opportunities. And therefore, I think that you move into a trusted adviser status when you have that within your stable.  Jenny  How does it work internally Simon, with your account management team and your planning team? How did the account management team know when to bring in the planning team and when not to and who leads the relationship? And how does that kind of work? Simon  So client services, our client services team, they will know when we're talking about something that has a strategic nature to it. I also encourage them not to boil the ocean as well. Not every single discussion needs to have a plan out. It just needs to have a really good Client Services person asking the right questions and writing great briefs. But, if we're talking about brand strategy, are we talking about major projects and things like that, we tend to just make sure, check in with the planning team, just double check that, , they believe that they should be present. But the Client Services team own the relationship, and that is crucial, absolutely crucial that there's no ambiguity there. Jenny  Agreed. So I'm just conscious of time. I didn't realise that, I could talk to you all day, especially reminiscing about advertising in the early 90s. I'm sure there's lots of stories that we could swap. And I'm just curious about someone listening to this thinking, wow, this sounds really exciting. And perhaps they are in a planning role. And they think, well, I've got all the skills like Simon, it really helped him, then going to an agency owner role. Are there any tips or advice that you could share, anything that we haven't discussed already, that you think would be valuable to keep in mind? Simon  Yeah, yeah, I think the first question is, what's your motivation to moving from employment to self-employment, and then to the employer status. If it's like me, you’re impatient, and you want to, I suppose do something on your own and prove that to yourself, you can do it, then I think that's a great thing. And I love meeting people that are entrepreneurial, and people that have that confidence in their own ability to go for it. But I think the things that, some tips, I think, is that never forget that it's all about clients, okay? Never forget, if you don't have clients, you don't have a business, and therefore, you have to be client centric all the time. And that's in terms of winning clients, servicing clients and helping clients out and being that  go to person when the client needs you. Understanding how, planners may not know how the commercial side of the business works. So for example, there's a lot of planners that I've met, and we've employed, and it's the first time that they've ever been exposed to the machinations of agency. Learn that. How does an agency stay afloat, make money and, that's really important to learn. And then I think, knowing your value, and how to price, for the long term, not for the short term. And that's another judgement that you have to make. And once you have that going, as I said earlier , build up a bit of a war chest of money on balance sheets. Use the Friends model, make everything a cost of sale, not a fixed overhead to start with. You don't need to employ people, we're now in this incredibly agile environment, where it's the gig economy, work from anywhere, , this is the perfect environment for somebody to set up an agency. And once you have that critical mass in the business, you start to hire and then bring in some experts to help you with legals and employment and infrastructure, even an office if you do decide to go for it. So I mean, loads, the journey that I went on was, , stumbling from mistake to mistake and things like that. And eventually you just get it right. And, and once you've got those foundations, right, everything can then just accelerate. Jenny  Some great tips there. I love the thing about the war chest. I think that's so practical. Lots of really great tips for anyone listening and quite inspiring as well. So how do you see the future for agencies? And maybe planning and account management? Is there anything that you see coming, that you think is significant for the agency world in general? Any kind of trends or things you're saying? Simon  Hmm. So I think, I've just got a view on this, which other leaders may not agree, but I see that clients are wanting to choose expert agencies in particular roles. So therefore, I think full-service agencies are going to really struggle to keep themselves relevant. And therefore, niching down actually is quite an interesting strategy and something that we've very much done over the last few years where we have decided what we are absolutely brilliant at and we decided what we don't want to do as well. So I think that's an interesting one. I think that client services becoming so important to the client environment. There was the Up to the Light report that came out just recently again, which demonstrated the importance of client service, great client service, in the client and client agency relationship. And I think that we have to move people to a trusted adviser position where they, consultancy actually is interesting because as you say, , if you look at the  management consultants, , they drive up the value of their services, they provide a significant amount of value to the client beyond the job in hand. And I think that us creative businesses, we need to start pushing our client services team up that value chain. So the perception that's held of the team by the client organisation is much greater. The last thing I ever want is for a client services person to be the person just taking notes, that's not where we need to be. And from a, from a planning point of view, I think that the opportunity to bring some really great skills into the mid-market is a great opportunity as well. I'm seeing a lot of organisations that, outside of the FTSE 300, and all that stuff. Now, thinking brand is a really valuable business tool. And therefore, there's an opportunity for us to apply that strategic thought to smaller businesses and to start to help companies become more brand led than branded. And there's a real distinction there. And that's something that we're very active in so. Yeah, so I think that's a really exciting moment. Jenny  Amazing. Thank you. That was brilliant. Brilliant advice for agency owners, account managers and planners. So this has been amazing. Simon, if someone wants to find out about you, more about you, or almost a billion friends, how can they get hold of you? How can they reach you? Simon  Okay, so I'm on LinkedIn, of course. So you can connect me on LinkedIn - Simon Barbato. If anybody wants to reach out my email addresses is on our website, mrbandfriends.co.uk. And I sometimes muck around on Twitter, but I'm trying to do that less and less. Jenny  Another distraction! Simon  I just don't have time for anything.  Jenny  Exactly!  Simon, thank you so, so much for sharing so many valuable tips. I think this is going to be really a great episode for many people who are thinking about possibly moving from account manager to planner, or a planner to an agency owner. I think this is hugely inspiring. So thank you so much for joining me and thank you so much for everything you've shared. Simon  Thank you. It's been lovely to have a walk down memory lane, actually. So yeah, I look forward to listening back. Thanks a lot for having me. Jenny  Lovely. It's a pleasure. Simon  Cheers.

Transcript:Jenny  So today I'm thrilled to have on the show Martin Lucas. Martin is the, he calls himself a mathematical psychologist, which we're gonna dive into a little bit more. But he's the founder of a company called Gap in the Matrix. And they specialise in cognitive data science. And Martin has spent the last four years looking at human decision making and actually what drives those decisions. And the reason I wanted to invite him on today is because he's working with big global brands, and agencies, to really unpick the messaging that brands are putting out into the world to their consumers, why it's not working and how they can do it better. He's got some very interesting and very impressive statistics about the impact that his company has made on those brands. And before I kind of hand over to you, Martin to sort of fill in the gaps, I wanted to read a testimonial given by Rory Sutherland for the work that Gap in the Matrix do. So Rory basically said, 'Gap in the Matrix is one of the tiny number of people in the world who understands that it's psychology, which offers the greatest potential to revolutionise marketing in the next 10 years and beyond'. So that's pretty impressive because Rory is very, very well known in our industry. So, Martin, over to you, would you mind spending a couple of minutes just talking about you, your background? And why you decided to do this research?  Martin  Yeah, well, thanks for having me on. First of all, Jenny, and I'm glad that you picked out the Rory quote because that meant a lot to me. That was a nice piece of validation. So just to give everybody a little bit of background in 2015 or so the business that I had the sort of investment property there had I did that entrepreneurial bet, just bet the house right. And I conducted a four year research and development project examining 'Why don't humans understand one another?' That was that was my main problem statement write everything from 'Why does Facebook not work when it explores all this data about your life that's invading your life? I predicted Cambridge analytical before it happens, all the way through to every consumer, in various different guises is very frustrated with how they're treated. Right? Simple questions. Genuine, when was the last time you got an email that really excited you or touched a personal need for you? Or you saw an advert on Facebook where you're like 'Oh, wow, I really need that, you know'. It's a very broken system. Right? Yeah. And that's what we wanted to pick apart - was not just to, you know, stand on a box and say there's issues, right, everybody knows those issues. We want to understand why. And we wanted to do it from the consumer perspective. So we harvested from 24 academic disciplines, taking the most relevant components to do with consumer decision making. We turned it into algebra, because algebra is problem solving. And from there, we were able to figure out how you should communicate to different groups, and all kinds of different weird, but very practical things like skills of desire, for example, or why somebody absolutely adores and craves and collects pink umbrellas and why other people don't care about it at all. So it's about as much of giving people more of what they want, and less what they don't in a very simple way. And one of the things that I think is very true and even further true today, and I think that's why a lot of global brands are working with us, is a lot of people are caught stuck in that top down architecture, right, which never accounted for the digital age. So what I mean by that is, here's a brand and a logo, we want to sell this product. So we shoved this product to everybody. So it tends to be much more logo orientated, not consumer oriented. And that's one of the key things of what we looked at about why don't humans understand one another. And it's a very kind of capitalist, selfish kind of build, and it's not working. Jenny  So this is, I mean, it's very, very powerful stuff. And you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, engagement is key, and every brand wants to, but this model is obviously it needs some work. So, I mean, can you share with us, because I know that you were talking about statistics of click through rates or engagement rates. Tell me a bit about those findings. From your analysis?  Martin  Yeah, I mean, this is a key anchor that we use in a lot of situations with agencies, brand sales, and our own sales activity, our own marketing activity. So is it's as true in 2015 as it was in 2021. The average click through rate on Facebook is 1.61%. On Google display ads, it's 1.91%, on Programmatic, which are called stalker ads, it's 0.035%. If you just combine three of those things together, which are just three minor parts of a much larger ecosystem of advertising and marketing, and that's $265 billion worth of ads that don't get interacted with and it's 4.82 trillion ads being sent to consumers where it's not just consumers don't like them. It's actually costing people loyalty and actually pushing people away from brands, because you could love a brand, that's how it works within the brain, like you have a predilection for, I like, Jenny, give me a brand that you love. Like if you're gonna shop and what's brand that you love? Jenny  Okay, so I'm into Trinny makeup. Martin  Okay. And Trinny makeup, do you like every product that they do? Or is it just foundation? Is it face masks? Like, what comes to mind? Jenny  Interesting. I like their eye products, their eye shadows and lipstick, actually, they're best for cheek to lip. Martin  Right, cool. So what happens is that we assume, this is me talking about the architecture in most brands, we assume that because you're interested in this brand, we can show you this product. Right? And that's what often happens is that because you've got an interest in it, we'll just show you a advert, what your brain does in a microsecond. 98% of your decisions are unconscious, right? That's your database of life and experience, right? What your brain does in a microsecond says, 'Do we like that brand?' Yes, or no? Yes, we do. Oh, but it's not for the type of product that we like, and then we're going to reject it. So even though you should be engaging with the Trinny products, you don't because of what they show you. And that's how the brain optimises what to do in any given moment. And that's like the microsecond of decision making. Jenny  Wow, it's so true. Because actually, for a mascara, for example, I don't know why this is all become about me, but I will go to Mac, which is a completely different brand. So tell me more about that 98% of what's driving our decisions, Martin  Right, so we humans are chemically driven creatures, right? So let's do a really quick download of we're going to do neuroscience, neurobiology and the psychology of meaning in the quickest way without it being all those things that made it sound like scientifically, BS, right. And I try to avoid any kind of BS with it. Because that was one of the things that I knew in 2015, you can't come to market talking about emotions and psychology and stuff, you have to give them driven outcomes, right. So here's the data of decision making. 95% of all of our decisions are based on emotions. Decisions only become conscious, in only 2% of the things that we experience. So we make 35,000 decisions a day. Most of them are unconscious, I'm not in the mood, I've already eaten,  I don't like that. Or I like training, but it's the wrong type of stuff for me, right? Like, all of that happens is the unconscious. The conscious ones are the 2%, which is your emotional games, right. And the reason why humans are so driven by emotions, and we deal with 108 different types of emotions, we're so driven by emotions, because emotions connected into the reward centre in our brain. So we've all got a friend who thinks way, way, way too positively, right? Like the positive all the time, and most of the time, it's great, but sometimes you just like, just ease up, right? And then you've got a friend, that's that stuck thinking negatively, the glass is half empty all the time, right? Both of those people are getting the same chemical treatment within the brain. Right. So it's not about whether the unhappy person is having a good life, and the happy person is having a good life, right? They're both getting, they've got an architecture in their brain to get chemicals based on feeling good and feeling bad. And that's the system of how it operates. So that's what we humans are looking for. The reason that we're so driven by emotions is that motion gives us chemical releases. And it's perfectly natural. It's nature for us to be chemical kind of balanced machines, right? Jenny  This is fascinating. I mean, I kind of want to know how you got all of this data like, you know, the statistics that you just shared a moment ago before you just said that data was, you know, 1.61%, 1.91%? How did you actually find out that, was that just because you said that you're a mathematical psychologist, which I don't know 100% what that means, but is it crunching those numbers? And how do you access that type of number? Martin  Yes, so mathematical psychology is a specialism within psychology. And it's actually a research capability. And luckily enough for me, it was built about decision making. So obviously, when I when I discovered it, for my purposes, I was like jackpot. This is exactly it, right. And basically, is not just a pure psychology field, it is actually research. So it gives you the capabilities to go and research in different dimensions and things right, combined with that, and I've got a very unusual skill for algebra. So I can connect lots of disparate dots and stuff and do it in quite a fast way. I wanted to train myself to make it more accurate. So how did I find those stats, a lot of hard work and perseverance. We spent six months hacking the Facebook advertising system. So we could figure out the back end of the number of adverts, versus their cost, versus Facebook's profit versus what people spend the money on. And then that got us into what larger brands were doing. And then you know, it's all just been a very progressive iterative thing, which is why give up four years of my life. Two years to do the builds and two years to do all the case study and testing and stuff, you know, and that included as well, because it's not just about data or data architecture or thinking or anything like that. I spent time with sixty five different agencies around the world. And what I was trying to figure out was what don't they know? What is the thinking model taught to marketeers and advertisers? Right? Because we're all conditioned to think in a certain way, right, depending on our cultural environment, conditioning or education. So of course, advertising marketing is currently following a model. And I wanted to understand whether that model worked and what the gaps were within it, because I believe that there were gaps and that I think that's where we sit today in quite a powerful position, just because of the number of global brands that we're working with. It's working well. It took us a while to figure out how to message that, but is working well, you know, Jenny  I so want to dive into the 65 agencies and what you discovered, you know, in terms of importance, what was the first thing that you realise that really, you thought, wow, I had no idea that that was the case, because you've actually referred to it as a house of cards, and the broker model. So I want to dive into that, tell me more about the research specifically around how agencies are working. Martin  And what I found is that you've got a system that's very much generated by the whim. The whim of the CMO, the whim of the creative director and just the whim of people, right. And I don't mean to call it the creative director, I'm not, I'm not criticising individual rules, I'm just saying in the agency model, you've got a lot of whim activity. And just today, I had to, I had to climb one of my business partners off a shelf of anger, because we did some analysis for a global business, right. And we're looking at the research that they've done. And it's a combination of survey data and sentiment research, right. And this is quite common for any brand, any agency, but what you end up with is a partial truth. And then you look at, so we've got 16 different decks from this client, because we're at the research stage, right? And the first deck has an assumption within it. The next step takes that assumption and sees our customers want this 'likely because' and the 'likely because' is based on the assumption, and then the decks progress and progress and by the time you get to the sixth deck, this is now a truth. And their entire system is now being anchored around this truth, which was never actually true in the first place. Jenny  Okay, so some people listening to this, because there's a lot of creative agencies that tune in, they'll say, but hold on a sec. You know, when we develop concepts and ideas,  a lot of it is based on research, we do, you know, focus groups, we do, you know, observation techniques to see how people react. So a lot of kind of work goes in behind the scenes. So, tell me what you discovered about that part of the the way that the creative agency works. Martin  So what we find is not creative agencies just, right, but looking at global brands and things as well, there was one example where they'd bought all the gear and got the testing done, via the creative agency, actually, where they, you know, you put on the headgear, and you measure the customer's emotional reaction to the advert, right. And they got all positives, but they didn't get sales when the car was launched. And what we've pointed out to them is that triggering them an emotion within somebody is not a decision, it's not relevance. It's just triggering an emotion in that moment. So the point about this is that when you look at market research, one of the world's largest advertising agencies, their Chairman, told me that he had a doubt about market research. And he went out and recruited four people and got a budget to recruit those four people, really just to find out, was the market research valid? Or was it just coming from a library and an assumption, and he found that it was coming from a library and an assumption. And that's not me saying that, that's like what the chairman of one of the largest advertising groups and I find consistent evidence of things like that. So it's not really criticising the creative agency model. It's more criticising the fact that if research is not based on why the consumer buys, then you're into a problem. And then in turn, that got us into modelling how different industries actually operate. So for example, we know in the automotive space, the vast majority of automotive companies are caught in a model of car, metal, engine, right? Think about every TV advert car, metal, engine, then once in a while price, car, metal, engine, price, right? That's your consistent model. That's not why people buy cars.  Jenny  When you say car, model, price, you know, when you see a car advert, for example, it's very sort of emotionally led in the fact that someone's speeding along and the wind's blowing through your hair to kind of want for a better term, but just describe to me what you mean by this, this bit about model, metal? Martin  Well, you've kind of nailed it really, right. Most car adverts and campaigns are driven round somebody driving the car, right? The speed of that car, and the price of that car. Right? So basically, it's the look and feel and how somebody uses that car, right? And it works on that basis.When's the last time you sat in a car journey and were like, 'Oh my God, I feel so exhilarated because I'm sitting in my car?'. Right? Jenny  Never, this is my car right?!  Martin  So what you've got is a model where people are trying to drive emotion. But emotion is not decision making. Emotion is a byproduct that either triggers engagement, or happens because of it. Whereas if you look at as an example, when we've done car launches, with the most recent car launch, we did, we had 453, actionable insights split up by various different biotypes. Right. And I'll give you two really key pieces of insight that break this car, metal engine model. Number one, is that the car is second only, and to some first, behind the bedroom, for what you would term as the psychological layer. Right. So if you think about your bedroom, generally you share it with others, sometimes people don't, whatever, right, and the car you might share with family and others. But generally, it's a space that you get to yourself, you can blare your music, you can throw your rubbish on the ground, or you can be really OCD and put it into a bin and you just organise it the way you want. Right. So it's very private, it's a closed door space, very similar to the bedroom. So the reasons and things that we want from a car run a lot deeper. And we've won a lot of business by saying to people that for some people, the main reason they buy a car is the cup holder. Right? It's not the only reason, but knowing, they've got a cup holder, because they're busy doing conference calls to and from work all the time they need a place to put their coffee, if you don't put that in the experience, they're less likely to do it. Right. So that's one version of it. Number two, we did a recent piece of work, we were looking at 27 European markets for a brand, and one of the markets, we identified that 67% of females, if they don't get an affirmation that they can do parallel parking, they're not going to consider that car. Right. And that's got nothing to do with the car, the size of the car or anything like that. And the reason for that is that cars are designed by men. And women generally tend to be slightly shorter than, than men, right? So parallel parking is the thing that bothers a significant amount of women. And so if they can't get affirmation of it, they're not going to feel as secure and they're not going to consider your car. If you don't mention the cup holder or the parallel parking, people are just left to their own devices. And that's the consumer issue. It's you're not addressing things that they actually want. Does that mean we do a TV advert with a cup holder in parallel parking? No, no. But, it does mean that we can do more things with other communication channels, which is what the automotive industry doesn't do like a lot of industries that stuck with big TV advert. And then it's just selling things on price, in the other channels. Jenny  I'm glad you said that. Because I was just thinking, as you said, you know, what you're talking about is features, which obviously have that ability to make the person want to buy it. Because as you said, like you're triggering engagement with the ad. And advertising is a one message medium, so you don't want to be crowding it with lots of different messages. So you're absolutely right. But that doesn't mean to say that you've got the right engagement trigger, to then translate into a buying decision. Right? And that's essentially what you're saying. This is absolutely fascinating. So I'm kind of thinking if I'm an agency, listening to this and thinking, okay, I see what you're saying, did you in your research of 65 agencies find any agency that came close to, you know, acknowledging this or working in a way that was a lot more powerful? Martin  Oh, my work with Rory Sutherland was obviously quite key, right? Because I was attracted to him. I saw him talking at an event, right. And I didn't come from the industry. I came from the algebra world, right. And he stood up on stage and talked about why Uber won based on human control, and I'd written the same paper about this. So I went up to this chap that I didn't know and that's how I ended up meeting him. And then we just ran with our relationship from there. Up until that point, I didn't know about Ogilvy change, actually. And I found Ogilvy change was before Ogilvy did its reorganisation, I thought that they were moving towards that kind of capability, because they had more of the behavioural science and the behavioural economics component of it. But in the general sense, I think that to be super clear, I'm not criticising, particularly the creative agency or the advertising agency model, where we are more coming from when I think about what we do with agencies, is we're giving them more accurate truth based consumer knowledge, right, so that they can then create based on that truth. That's that difference, that we're giving actionable, truth based knowledge of the consumer.  Jenny  I heard you interviewed in another podcast, Martin, and you mentioned the way that agencies used to work. Can you tell us a bit about that? Martin  Yeah, it's my favourite thing actually, it's amazing that you brought that up! So when, of course you're trying to find out over the years I've been trying to find out 'How does thinking work in a consumer context', right? 'What made advertising great, what's made it's more challenging? How much has the digital world affected it?' Right? And one of the coolest things that I found was that the golden age of advertising from the 30s to the 50s, market research was done by an employee inside the agency, and they were a psychologist. So market research was based on that deep truth. And it was based on focusing on the boss of the operation, which I still believe is the case is the female. And I think that the more that the advertising and marketing world has specialised, it's over specialised. So again, a different chairman from a different advertising group, but it's still one of the big houses, said to me that you felt the biggest issue is when they separated media and advertising. Because once they did, that, they lost the connection to be able to control how to communicate to people at the right moment, and the part that sits round it as well. So I think that the golden age of advertising has got a really positive component to it. And why did they fire the psychologists? It was actually when, you know, in the 50s, the advertising body said, 'You've got to stop saying that smoking is good for you because we now know that it isn't'. In that classic way, business world overreacted and got rid of its market research, got rid of its psychologists. And then we began this path towards the more specialised capability of research that isn't inside the agency. So sometimes this capitalism efficiency can end up costing us what made us good in the first place, in my opinion. Jenny  So nowadays, because most, you know, a lot of advertising is online, and we can, everything's trackable isn't it? And tell me what your research kind of uncovered about, you know, how we are measuring the success because, you know, many agencies do have their measures in place to see what's working, what's not. And then, you know, maybe they do split testing or optimization as they go. So, tell me a bit about, like, how you've seen, you know, I think you called it the attribution model of measuring, and you didn't, tell me a bit about what you think about the attribution model. Martin  The problem with the attribution model, it's similar to the finance model of 'LIFO and FIFO' or 'Last in, First out' that type of stuff, right? Anytime you come across multiple models, trying to solve the same thing, it means that nobody actually knows the truth. Right. So if you're saying that 70% of our attribution model is based on first contact, and somebody else's 70 percents based on last contact, and somebody says, well, we're going to divide it equally between the eight pieces of contact, it means that you don't know what works, you don't know the impact, you don't know how decision making actually works based on your consumers. And it's a very fair reason why people don't know it, is because what we're trying to do is to create a model, which is one size fits all. And I believe that we've compounded it to make it even worse over the past 20 years, because the digital age is creating assumption, within assumption on top of research that is creating bias within bias. And you've got all that together. And it's just quite a big cluster swear word. Jenny  Thank you for not swearing you know you can by the way. That's really interesting, because obviously, the click through rate is, you know, all views, number of views, click through rate, these are the kinds of measures that many people use nowadays. So would you say that that's not an indicator? Like, what's your thoughts on that? I mean, if someone clicks on an ad, and then clicks through to the page, is that an indication of a buying signal? Martin  I believe, it is an indication of a buying signal. It's just not an absolute. So what you've got at the moment, is Facebook salespeople are literally trained to be, and they're out there telling all kinds of large brands, don't worry about clicks, worry about impressions, because impressions mean that people will eventually come back to you. And that is like horseshit, since you gave me permission to swear, sorry. I mean, that's just not true. But it's a good sales strategy by Facebook because they're Facebook, right? So the problem that you've got today is that nobody wants to raise their hand in a very siloed, blame free society and say, I look after this particular silo and I don't think that this silo works, or do you know, I mean, it's like the architecture of it all. If you think about human behaviour, there's, in the world of psychology and the world of behavioural science in the world, the human science, there's a commonality and I always look for commonalities because that's how historians do things right if they find, you know, after a battle the king says this and a monk wrote here and a peasant that could write wrote about it, right, let's say they find out the truth. And I think the same thing applies. So humans have got five dimensions that makes them human right across all these all these areas. And it's language, it's religion, it's music, it's art, and it's tool making. And what's going on in the world today is that we've started to rely too much on the tool makers. So because the software says this or because the data says this or we can do this big data project, you can't think of somebody liking a page or visiting a page as an absolute. And that's what Facebook builds its look alike audiences from, that's why Programmatic falls on its butt because it's got a point .035% click through rate. And what people are saying is, well, if we throw enough stuff, you know, for every 1000 that we send, three and a half people are going to click it. Right? What is that actually costing you the other way around? And I think that's part of the problem, some of the stuff that we're doing with brands away from advertising and marketing, and you could debate that this is advertising and marketing in itself, is asking questions like, what does it cost you Armani, when you sell jeans, stacked high as the rafters on a plain, plastic table in Costco? What does that cost you when Armani customers actually see that? We're selling tracksuits in JD Sports, we wrote a paper about this, it's known as thin slicing. And what it basically means is that you you thin slice away somebody's perception of you, so that it changes. And the Costco one was a personal one for me, as my wife jokes I had like a little toddler tantrum about it was slamming these jeans up and down in a Costco. And I've gone from being a loyal Armani customer, and I don't think I'm a snob, I certainly didn't grow up as a snob, but I've never bought an Armani product since because it's just a minister value, you know? Jenny  Your perception of the brand?  Martin  Right. Jenny  Do you separate, because there are some agencies that focus on brand strategy? And really sort of that higher level? What, what is the meaning of this brand? What's it bringing out? And there's other agencies that focus more on the execution of the messages and the maybe more, you know, promotional side of, of advertising? So do you see any difference? Or are you seeing the same problems occurring for both? Martin  I think, brand strategy as a general rules got a little bit stuck in its ways, because the world has been overtaken by performance marketing. So everybody's looking for number based stuff. And I think and I've done this with brand strategy people, as agencies, sorry. I've said that the time for them to look at branding is performance branding, right? If you understand what that brand means, what sits underneath that what its products means why people buy it, who's interested in it, all the kind of stuff that sits around it, right? So what branding agencies should be doing, is the top down architecture that says, okay, Facebook advertisers, okay, Creative, okay, TV, okay, Mass Media, wherever you are, right? I want you to have the space to do your creative work, but I want you to follow these rules. Right? And that could be language, not storytelling structure, but certainly the essence of the story, right? And guess what happens if you do performance branding, the consumer gets continuity, in all of those channels. And that's one of the things where, you know, we get well paid for what we do. And we work with global brands, so I'm not complaining about it, but there are times pretty much every other day where I'm just like, some of the things that we do just seem so logical. Why aren't people thinking about this? But that's the structure of business, right? We're caught in silos a little bit too much. Jenny  Give me an example. Martin  I think, the persona stuff is probably one that comes to mind purely because we've been working on it today. Where you're looking at these personas, and you're like, this is not why people buy, right? If you're going to buy an engagement ring, it's got to be wrapped into either an emotional gain and a story, either an ego lead reason that you're actually doing it and how you want to be seen, or how you want to be treated with the loved one, right? So it's kind of we call it behavioural elastic. Right? So how much meaning does your purchasing go into? In this case, we're talking about an engagement ring, right? So do you want to just impress the person that you're asking? Do you actually want to impress yourself, which is really common, on the ego side? Or are you trying to impress your wider group of friends by that engagement? Right, and nothing is as pure as putting people in each of these boxes. That's the thing. It's all what we call the skills of self. Right? So desire, loyalty, categorization, preferences, all of that depends on the person the moment we did the campaign over the over Christmas, where we did CRM based on the weather. Right? So when the when the wind was above a certain level, we sent a message to people in Scotland about a winter jacket. And we sold out, this is a global brand, a billion dollar brand, sorry, in the UK, and they sold out their stock. Right? Because we made it about the real life, what we call the 2D architecture, what's going on in somebody's life, why are they doing it? If you understand all the scales, I think I've gone off a bit piste from what you asked me but... Jenny  No, it's fine.  Martin  It's like this. This is just all the, the thing for me is like, if you're trying to take a brand and come up with one advert that serves everybody, then you're wasting your time. And if you've got the opportunity and let's just do the basic domestic TV right, ITV has always had the opportunity for you to do localised advertising. And we just worked with one of the global top five entertainment brands, and they do a lot of children's toys, right. And one of the things that we did was code it altogether so we could see, which were the characters that people were interested in based on different regions in the UK. Right. So it means that when they do their adverts, including TV, they lead with the products that the regions are most interested to, because that's how you trigger attention and get the person looking at it. And that's your job done. That's how engagement works. It's not about the story and the feelings of the brand. It's like, show me something that's relevant to me, do it really quickly, then you can trigger my emotion because now you've got my emotion to purchase, unlike when we're talking about the car advert, just because you make me feel happy doesn't mean that I'm ever going to like your car. Jenny  So it feels like quite a comprehensive approach to making sure that we are engaging with the customer. I mean, do you think people should throw out personas altogether? Martin  Yes, I would love them to. One of the most difficult things that I have is that I was trying to be direct, but in a very civil kind of educational way, right? Because you know, babies and bath waters and all that kind of stuff. But personas is really difficult. Like, if a business is architected most of its staff around personas, and here's my biggest issue with personas, Dave, is 35, he's got an income of 38K. He likes Coventry football club. He's a big Doctor Who fan and he spends lots of time on Instagram, right? That's a persona that we came across last week, right? And and that's describing an individual. And when you do that anyone that then works on that it's over prescribed and it doesn't make any sense. And it doesn't relate to what you're trying to sell them. And one of the things that I said to again, one of the agencies and one of the really big ones, was that they'd spent two years combining seven personality tests into one, right. And it wasn't that long after Cambridge Analytica and I said, well, you've got a risk with Cambridge Analytica, and they said, but here's the actual problem is that I could understand everything, about Jenny's life, right? Just like the personality test. That's what Facebook do. I understand all these things. Jenny once liked her pink umbrella. She'd liked a Mercedes page, she likeed Doctor Who once, you like Coventry FC, right? Behind the scenes Jenny could have liked the Coventry FC page, because they got beat six nil, and she wanted to have a laugh at Coventry Football Club. Right? And she wanted a friend to see that she'd liked it on Facebook, right? And she ticked the pink umbrella because she wanted to show it to a friend, right? Or she looked at a particular car because she absolutely hated it. There's a variety of different reasons, you can't use that those things as assumptions, right? And what we said was that you combine the seven personality tests into one, right? Do you know what your biggest missing thing is? You understand all this stuff about Jenny, but you still don't know how she thinks and feels about the product you're trying to sell her? So what's the point? And that's where we've cut through a lot of stuff you know? Jenny  I want to take you back one step, because you mentioned that you gave a presentation or talk about Uber and human control. And I don't know the story. So I'd love if you could share, because I'm sure it's going to be insightful. Martin  You well I mean, Uber's had a lot of negative press and stuff like this. So let's go this is going back like three or four years before they got all the sexist stuff and all the workers rights and stuff like that. And what I'd identified was that we've got, we've got 300 plus algorithms, right, which is all about the mathematics of decision making, the algebra of decision making, we've got a 296 part problem solving model, right? We call it neuro strategy, because it is about thinking and stuff but really, it's a problem solving model where, as we've taken those 24 academic disciplines, the number one thing, the thing that it opens with, which is such a simple but deep question is what problem you're trying to solve. Right? Such a simple question like everything is solving a problem. A pink umbrella is not necessarily just because it's raining, the pink umbrella is because you want to look cool on your way to work. You want to stand out in the streets of London for example, right? I've don't have a pink umbrella, but I've got an umbrella that makes me stand out because I'm a show off. Right. That's it. That's why I like umbrellas. I don't think I've actually ever erected an umbrella, no matter how hard it's raining. I don't even know if that's the right word. I don't think we talk about erecting umbrellas. You see what I mean? If I buy it because I'm a dandy and I want to show off with the umbrella. But, I've lost my school of thought what are we talking about? Oh, sorry. So and what problem do you solve? This is the beauty of what Uber did. Pre Uber, Jenny and I are sitting in a pub, right? And we're supposed to be going for dinner. Jenny gives me a slightly dirty look. And I'm like, 'Oh god, I'm sorry. I'll call them again'. I call them again. Taxi company- 'Be there in five minutes'. It's like ordering a pizza. Right? I'll be there in five minutes. Come off the phone. Jenny's scowling at me a little bit and I feel bad even though what can I do? I can't control the taxi. Right? But I then start to get bothered because I don't be like being late for things even though it's just a restaurant, right? What Uber did, Martin and Jenny are sitting in exactly the same place. And I hold up my phone and I'm like, 'Look, Jenny, it's two minutes away. Do you want to do a shot?' and Jenny laughs, goes 'Okay, let's do a shot right?' Because now we've got human control. The problem that Uber solved was one of human control. We went from being frustrated and not feeling in control, even though it's just a taxi. What I said was very fair, the frustration didn't know when it was coming didn't feel in control. If you're paranoid, like how many times do you go to almost call the taxi, when you're waiting for the 6am one to go in your two weeks summer holiday, you know, I mean, these are real things. And Uber solved the human control capability. What they marketed on was the cheapness of it, and the cost of it, but actually what the problem they solved was, taking an existing market, and they just did it with more human control. Jenny  Amazing, I hadn't even thought of it like that. And, and actually now, that sort of technology of tracking how far something is away from you, it's actually becoming more mainstream, isn't it in different kind of instances? So I'm just wondering, like for, tell me a bit about who you're helping now, like you mentioned global brands. But you know, which sounds really impressive, but why were they attracted to you? Martin  I think the main thing is that we're giving them answers to questions that each of the individuals, particularly senior personnel, are frustrated about because their personnel or their suppliers, are giving them things that they know is not quite right but they don't know why. And we can answer those difficult 'why' questions? Why does our customer buy? We've even got an algorithm called the science of cool, that uses object mathematics, which sounds fancy, and it's the basis of psychoanalysis and therapy, it's the Freud method. And we've adapted that and said, right, what's the other dimensions about that pink umbrella, right? Martin's not interested in the pink umbrella. But we now know that he will never open an umbrella, he wants a dandy type of umbrella, with a little wooden monkey head on top, which is the one that I do have, right? Right, we find out all those dimensions about what that object means to people. And that's how we know how to communicate to different groups because the meaning is not just the physical product, it's the psychology, it's what it means to people, it could be an impulse product, we've got the mathematics of impulse, which fascinates me, like the average person in the UK spends £81 a week on impulse shopping. Right. And that means that the average person is going to spend that money on a Korean takeaway, on a McDonald's, on a pink umbrella or on a pair of six pairs of Armani jeans based on Costco. So the point is that it's not about how loyal they are to you, it's about whether they've got awareness that their impulse shopping should go into you. Right, because it could go into McDonald's, or it could go into jeans, or it could go into Trinny makeup. Right. It's all that kind of stuff, really? Jenny  And are you saying that this is something that only you can help with? I mean, who comes close to even helping because I can understand what you're saying there was the themes and the holes in the model? You know, how can we make sure that we have a really comprehensive approach to our messaging, our targeting or even how we then further optimise either a campaign or our messaging? You know, I can see that there are, and how do clients make decisions about what they're going to go with and what they don't? If we're kind of looking back at the market research and even questioning whether the right insight went into the development of any kind of messaging or so, who have you come across or what have you come across, that even comes close to doing this?  Martin  The, we haven't found anything where anyone's architected decision making or combined a bunch of different disciplines to understand that right. So we do know that I believe that we're in a very strong, unique position. You've obviously got a lot of people that do specialisms on e-commerce, on optimization and things like that, they tend to be more digital focused, and we work with some of them, because it helps improve the function. But again, what we're giving them is the here's the communication, here's the data, here's the strategy to actually use, and then they can do the technical toolmaking component of it. So I do say that like completely, honestly, that I've been hunting, for years to make sure that, that I'm not just tricking myself, right. But now we're starting to see that tipping point with the large brands, I think we've got the proof that, it's only us that can do it. it's just the question of getting the word out, I think. Jenny  I mean, I know that from what we've discussed in the past, you're pushing on an open door here because a lot of brands have been inviting you in and seeking you out. So I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg to how popular this services is but can you share some examples of some of the results you've had so far? Martin  Yeah, so if I was to run you through, so at the moment, we've got two global automotives. One's a car launch and one's like an entire region, re-strategization. One of the US's top retailers, one of the US has top bridal retailers, a lot of global companies like that. I'd love to have more fashion because that's why I started all of this in the first place, because that's what I'd love to do. But our mean average, across 56 case studies of big brands and things, is average save in the region of 26% on advertising and efficiencies, because if you know what people want, when they want it, you also know when not to bother them. So that's a big savings thing. Profit growth, with three to 21%. So 3% per billion dollar company with 62 million, right? So 3% is significant. And then metrics, we average 70 to 120% above industry for like, open rates, click through rates, that kind of stuff. Jenny  Wow, that's pretty impressive. And just explain Martin, like how, at what point brands tend to invite you in? Martin  One of two ways, what we've done is that we're obviously like everybody looking for long term partners and stuff. And if we implement our matrix software, that puts us right in the middle of being able to help them with a little bit of everything right and a little bit of automation. But we do an immediate paid test. So that because a lot of people are frustrated with having to sign up for something that they don't know whether it works or not. Right. And we're fighting against that by saying, well, let's just do an initial paid test and things like that, as well. And we find that that works super well for us as a point of engagement, you know? Jenny  And do you equally work just as well with agencies, because obviously, agencies are the conduit to working on several brands or, you know, multiple brands? And I would have thought that you're kind of like a bit of a secret weapon for an agency to, you know, partner with you in some way that they can then help their clients. So do you work in multiple ways like that? Martin  Yeah, I mean, what we do, when we find the right agency partners, we put our USPs to be their USPs. Like sometimes they'll say, we're working with Gap in the Matrix. And sometimes we just let them white label it we don't mind. When it works super well, when we're really locked in like we did one with a global pharmaceutical, did an addressable market model and a lot of psychology stuff like solving problems that they hadn't been able to solve for years. And it meant that the agency made a lot more money than what we did. We're totally fine with that. So agencies do the markup on our cost, but it generally leads to a lot more business for them. And think about what I said about the brands, the brand strategy or performance branding, right, you don't have to be a branding agency to take positive control of an entire client. And that's what we do is just do the little segments with it. So our testing becomes their testing. And so it tends to work quite well. But, the agency world it's a little bit of shaky ground so I find this is kind of based on trust. So somebody shows us a little bit of leg and we did that in return, and it works out well, then we build a proper partnership. And if we don't, then we don't, we've got a rule inside myself, my two business partners that we don't work on back money. What we mean by that is that, I wouldn't say we're all long enough in the tooth, but probably enough wisdom from failure, which is how I define wisdom, right, the experience of mucking stuff up. If we're not comfortable, or we don't believe that the opportunity is authentic, then we'll just back out of it. Jenny  I totally understand that very, very, yeah, having people that are aligned with your values is so key to business, I think, especially nowadays. Tell me if there's an agency listening thinking, well, I've got both B2B brands that I'm working with and B2C, I mean, as you said, 95% of decision making is emotional. Would you say that, you work with both, either and it works the same? Martin  It works. I mean, we do have more on the B2C side. Right. And that's deliberately part of our strategy. But my three previous businesses have all been B2B. We've deliberately designed our model, particularly the 296 part problem solving to be about B2B as well. So the moment we are doing some account based marketing, a lot of lead generation stuff, a lot of sales meets marketing type activity for  B2B . So it's a very, it's a very open door. It just depends on what type of B2B it is. Jenny  Okay, perfect. And as you said before, I think that, you know, people can invite you in as early as as product idea stage right, to make sure that their strategy is solid from the beginning? Martin  Yeah, we've got them, on our board there's Noelle Dye and Noelle, she's pretty much the godmother of design thinking like she invented it, but it's never been a field that's been credited to a person but she's done so many innovation projects, and she's just got a beautiful mind, you know, somebody that just knows so much but can say things in such a succinct way. And she invented the Swiffer for P&G, which is a half billion a year product. Um, so we've got we've got that range and capability about pre design. And the reason why we created The Science of Cool, which is an offshoot of the algebra we've built, it's called The Rational Mathematics, and the Science of Cool actually allows you to know, don't create this product because you might be able to sell it but it's actually going to be really low in profitable and it's going to push other people away. So if you think about some of your favourite fashion brands, how often do they just have some really dross stuff. And the average for a retailer based on RRP, they should be selling for 83%, average, right. That's how the profit's driven, and a lot of brands are now dropping down to 67%. So you know how it feels like there's a sale on all the time, that's started to manifest itself in people's bottom line. So actually, knowing what to produce and what not to produce is obviously a very, very powerful thing, because we're moving into more of a profit driven world rather than just a revenue driven one, I think. Jenny  On that point, you mentioned a couple of times, He psychology and She psychology? Yeah. Can you explain a little bit about that? Because I think it's a fascinating sort of interpretation of how you've seen the changes over the last few years. Martin  So just to give a bit of background, we've looked at every variable that affects how people think. Right? And a lot of this is unconscious, right? So do we know that if you take, so we've done the culture of every country in the world, right, so there's one of the variables about how people think, so the reason why British people for non British people are difficult to deal with, is that we've got a really high individualism score and we actually map very similar to the United States. However, consciously, we think that we're conservative, and we say that we're conservative, but our actions don't match what we say. And this is why people find it difficult to deal with British people, right? That's one example of these conditions that we're not aware of. Why would we know that right? And He versus She psychology is very much a big brand issue. So we're not talking about gender, we're talking about a thinking model. Right, and He psychology is defined as lacking emotion, tends to be quite practical, trends be quite numbers focused, right? She psychology, again a thinking model, not just the gender, She psychology is more emotional intelligence, the relationship between things connecting the dots. She psychology is storytelling, is the golden age of advertising. And yet the vast majority of brands are caught in He psychology model - car, metal engine, car metal engine, right? Practical, numbers oriented, lacks emotion, right, until you get to the TV that makes people feel happy, even though they don't want to buy the car. So when we talk about equality in the world, She psychology is naturally more present in women, but it's not an absolute. And I'm really careful about how I say that, because previous things that I've done, I've actually been, I've had some negative messages from women talking about this type of stuff. And I'm actually I mean it, it's the opportunity for how brands should be behaving as a thinking model. For women that have naturally have emotional intelligence and men, you're good storytellers. And that's what the brands should be doing. We need to go back to the past with a little bit of influence, and using technology and digital in the correct ways. But it's a She psychology driven world, it always will be, we just lost touch with that a little bit. And I think it's, you know, a little bit too much capitalism. I'm all for money. But if you make that your most dominant object, you're not going to win. Jenny  No, thank you for explaining that. This really, I had never come across that until I heard you talk about it on another on another podcast. So, Martin, I mean, what needs to change now, for brands? I mean, what would you advise? I mean, there's agencies listening to this thinking, Oh, my goodness, sounds like something that I would really, you know, I need to know more about or, but in the future, what what do you think needs to change, with the way that we are operating? Martin  I think that, I think it's about how we think about what we do. I think it's for any agency personnel to just take them back to what their, what their dreams were, you know, when they first started out, when they had that initial success when it wasn't just about awards  or trying to be more than what they wanted to be. I think it's about understanding your customers. And what does that actually mean? If you understand your customers, you understand the decision making. And you can learn who your customers are through language, through dialect, through accent, you can speak to them clearly more directly. Think about every touchpoint that you've got with them. Rather than just trying to shove product down our necks and price down our necks. The really ironic thing is that when we focus on price and product, it ends up costing us profit and product sales. Do you think that's the kind of either needs? So I encourage any agency personnel apart from obviously hiring us, is just to go back to that, a little bit of dream state with a little bit more accuracy about who is your customer and how you're going to serve them? Because bias is the biggest problem and in everything in life, I find that time and time again. Jenny  I presumed that that was a big part of your research, wasn't it, bias? Martin  Yeah, I mean, it's everywhere. Creative bias, assumptive bias bias within bias of research, bias within biases, sentiment analysis. You've got a lot of disciplines trying to prove that their thing is the absolute answer. And then it's picked up by the person at the brand or the agency, because that's their job, as the absolute answer. Right? And whenever you see some of the keywords like, this is likely to mean, that's when you're in trouble. Because it goes from this is likely to mean, to be in a fact, to be in a strategy. Jenny  Powerful stuff. Okay, so I'm thinking about now agencies and brand owners listening to this thinking, this all makes sense, I can see that there's an opportunity here for me to maybe look at what I'm doing to optimise. Who are the best people to contact you? And how can people contact you? Martin  So our rule with agencies is we want to speak to people that are either heads over C level, depending on the size of the agency. And that's just being direct because we deal with big ticket brands, and we know the decision making level that we need to speak at. So that's just the reality of life, right, and from lessons that we've learned, but I'm always up for any kind of problem as a discussion. But that's fun for me, what's your problem, what you're working on? Well, here we go. Here's some insights that will help you but we can't work with you, or this would be amazing, let's work together. Jenny  Fantastic. Well, Martin, honestly, I mean, is there anything else that you can share with the creative industry, or agencies in general, any piece of advice or pieces of advice or words of wisdom before we go? Martin  I think at the end of the day, forget about the word mathematics in front of it. And even psychology in itself, right? Philosophy is like the forefather, foremother of everything, right? It's always been about how do people think and how do we define the world around us? And that's what we need to return to. And it's difficult in the modern world. It's difficult for all of us, because we're being forced to do things quicker, faster, cheaper, right? What I'm saying is when you slow down, you get things to be better, faster and quicker, right? You've just got to slow down and give yourself a moment to think about who you're serving and what you do and don't know or what you're assuming that you know. Jenny  Nice parting words, Martin, honestly, this has been fantastic. Time has just whizzed by. I'm very conscious of your time, we've we've hit the hour. So, thank you so much for coming on the show. And no doubt I'm sure, you'll get some inquiries from agencies who want you in their corner. So thank you so much. Martin  Thanks for having me on Jenny.

Transcript: Jenny  So Nadine, welcome to the show. Would you mind spending a few minutes just talking about you what you do, how you help companies? Nadine  Thanks for having me. And yeah, Project Management On Demand is a project management consultancy. We work in the digital space. And we work on all sorts of different projects within agencies, ad agencies, but also client side. The type of projects can vary from content management systems to e-learning to augmented reality to apps, so anything online digital displays also some above the line work as well. The four core areas of project management on demand are on demand project management help. So somebody may say we have a project, we've got three days a week in the budget to service that project. And then we service it Monday to Friday, nine to five, but within that budget, and then if we don't use the time, we don't bill it. Full Time project management, obviously, we also coach and mentor project managers or groups around project managers. So as I said to you previously, sometimes account managers who may be on smaller projects, but need to have an understanding of those fundamentals around running a project successfully. And we also do process consultancy where we come into businesses, and we look at how they currently run and manage their projects with regards to systems, the team, the team structure, processes, type of project, type of clients, and then we can help work with those businesses to create a roadmap to then go in and then help them over time, better run and manage projects. And for me, the core thing about that is a happy team, but also better, bigger margins within the agency.  Jenny  I think it's fantastic, and such a comprehensive range of services that you offer. And I'm so glad that we found each other. And I'm very grateful to Lucy Snell for introducing us because people do come to me and say, do you do project management training? And or, do you know, any project managers? So I always kind of send them your way. And what would you say is the biggest problem that companies come to you to fix? Nadine  It's not always a fix. I mean, sometimes we do get flown into crisis projects. So we just have to dive straight in and rescue which is always fun. But it's different things. It may be that it's a smaller agency, and they don't actually have any project managers. So they might kind of go, we've got big projects come in, have you got somebody that can help and just come in and sort of start helping us? And then obviously, the other thing is about process. And I think we can talk about that a bit later, what with everything that's happened recently, in the last year, people are having to work a bit smarter in different ways, but not in the office kind of going right, I'll finish that in a minute, I'll hand it over. So everybody has to be a bit smarter on the systems and processes. So a lot more of that work is coming in these days, Jenny  I can imagine I know how busy you are. And tell me because I know your background is in project management, obviously, that's why you're so skilled and proficient in what you do now. But tell me what you think are the the core skills of a really great project manager? Nadine  Well obviously to be organised is a fantastic thing. To be a really good communicator, that obviously really helps. And that's with your internal team, and with all levels within that team. And then obviously client side with stakeholders and senior management people. But also that level of just actually liking people and getting on with people. Because if you're not that sort of people person, then you're not going to be able to get the best out of your team when running a project. Good under pressure is obviously you know, a key as well. Negotiation skills that obviously come with, you know, the more years under your belt that you have, and financial acumen as well. Jenny  It's a lot. It's a big ask, actually for this role, isn't it? Because they are the linchpins of the agency. They're kind of the engine room, aren't they? They're making sure that everything happens. And where do you think I mean, you have agencies approaching you all the time and companies approaching you all the time. Where do you think companies get it wrong with project management? What do you kind of typically see, and you think, oh, here we go again, like what are some of the things? Nadine  Well, some some bad scoping. I mean bad scoping is an absolute typical one. I think it always circles background to what is your process? What's your process so if you're going in to, if you have a requirement in and they say we need this, you will probably,  should do discovery phase to understand exactly what this is before we then go into your full scoping. Because there's always going to be things coming up that you're understanding the clients understanding might be different that could be out of the blue, or what we thought you were doing the copywriting, and you know, you think we're doing the copywriting. So scoping is fundamental. Not being firm with your clients can also cause you a bit of a cropper, of course, you have to be fair and build that relationship. And that's where we'll talk about later about how the project management and the account manager can work nicely together. And change control management. So having the experience to understand where your team is, where the project is, going back to your statement of work, which says this is what we're doing, to then say to the client, this is out of scope, now we can do it for you, but we need to make addendums to that document, and then we need to charge you more money. So that's really key, I think a lot of the time, that's about confidence as well, because the client might say we've got fixed budget. So, okay, so we've costed it to this, say we might have some contingency in it. So I think it's really key to, I mean, obviously, you have to have the experience to do that. And you have to have the competence to do that. But that's one of the really key things that needs to be kept on top as a project manager, but you would, and you should work very closely with your account manager on that. Jenny  You said one of the key things is process. And I'm sure, like myself, you work with all different types of agencies, for example, from small just starting up to big established, and everything in between. I think process, like you say is really key, isn't it? What do you advise smaller agencies that are perhaps, you know, 2,3,4,5,6 people that are just on that growth trajectory? And they are looking to establish process like how important, is it? And maybe I'm putting you on the spot a little bit here. But if they're looking for recommendations for a good project management system, do you have like, go to systems that you say, this one, Nadine  So, a couple of questions there. So with regards to process, every agency has a process, no matter how small or how large you are, it's just at the beginning stages, when you're 5,6,7 you might not physically written it down. But you're such a tight team, that you all know what's going on and who's doing what, when even whether you may not have a project plan or you know, but you will, you will know how you work. The key thing about process and implementing it is when that team is going to grow larger, also, because then there's too many people to just kind of say, right, I finished that, and then I send it over, I'll be ready for the next bit. But the other thing is that also, as you grow larger, you'll be taking people in who've been in other work environments and agencies, and they all have their way of doing it. So they'll kind of think that their way is the right way, or the way that it should be done. So that can then cause problems. So if you can then have you know, your playbook as such, for when people join the agency today, this is how we work. This is what we do. This is our culture, this is our process, these are the systems, then you're on the way to being able to manage projects in a more successful way without things falling down somewhat. Jenny   Yeah. Nadine  Regards systems, it's, the thing is, there's so many systems out there, I got asked by a client, I think she emailed, she always emails me at the weekends, and she said, you know, we're thinking about monday.com what you think? And so we've had conflicting comments that monday.com some say it'sbrilliant, some say it's not so brilliant. And the same with all of the other programmes and systems that are out there. And it really is. I advised her to take three projects, trial that system for a month, have one key person who was going to, you know, look after that and lead it, to actually upload the information you need, start pulling reports and then to manage the team around that. And then after a month, you know, sit down what's good, what's not good, what worked, what didn't work, and then move on to the next one to see. Because different people in different agencies want different types of reports and they want different things. They want to forecast differently. They want to project differently, they want different project information out of those systems. So we do go into businesses and work with them on the how are we working, what's good, what's bad, what do you need, and then we can like help, you know, identify a system that will work. Of course then a lot of people go off and try and create their own system sometimes which is, because then they can tailor it exactly to what they want. Jenny  I can imagine that it's sort of, you know, it's dependent on the agency itself and how they want to work exactly. I mean, you mentioned as well... Nadine  I mean, because, you know, for smaller agency, it's just six, an Excel spreadsheet's going to be fine for you, you know, but then if you want to scale and then there's 50 of you, there's no way that's going to work. So it's, it's all the different variables.  Jenny  Well, that's interesting that you can offer advice in that area. I mean, you mentioned monday.com, I've heard monday.com sort of bandied around a lot. What are the other kind of top three systems that you hear a lot, that agencies tend to use, particularly ones that are thinking about scaling fast, and they want to set themselves up from the beginning for success? Nadine  I'd like so there's so many I wouldn't want to just say, I mean, a lot of my clients, they use JIRA, workflowmax. Asana, obviously, loads of people who work in a bit more of an agile fashion are using Trello. There's just so many out there that it's just it's, I wouldn't recommend one over the other, because they fit differently to each business. Jenny  You're right, actually, I mean, even as a consultant myself, I started off using Asana, and couldn't quite really get the hang of it. But we've moved over to Trello and I'm running it really easy. So, I suppose it's down to the individual as well. And you mentioned before about the difference between the am and the pm role, I'd love to kind of dive in to this with you, because it's something that I've been reflecting on a lot recently, because I have a lot of account managers coming through my training programmes, most of whom actually work in that hybrid role. They're trying to manage projects and grow accounts as the traditional account management role. And I think there's upsides and downsides for both. So I'd love to kind of get your perspective on maybe differences, similarities, what's the overlap? How do they work together? You know, what, what's your experience Nadine? Nadine  I mean, I think over the years, working in, you know, ad agencies over the years and digital agencies, I think there's, there's always a big trend of, let's get rid of all project managers, we just have account managers now, then and then it's, let's get rid of all the account managers and let's have project managers now, oh let's try the two together. So and it's a, it's a trend over the years that we tend to see, isn't it? For me, I feel that an account manager and a  project manager should really work together. And they should have a really good partnership together, because the account manager doesn't want to be getting involved in all the nitty gritty of the project. But at the same time, they're there to, you know, stroke the client be, you know, upsell with the client. Instead, they need, they do need to have that project understanding, but it's, it doesn't, I've seen it before, it doesn't work. And I think a client knows as well, if an account manager and project manager don't get on. And they fundamentally should be partnering up on on working on an account. Likewise, as I said earlier, you know, a good project manager should be able to with their team, be able to look at a project, maybe a developer would go crumbs, we could do that. That'd be amazing. I'm the project manager, if you've got a good relationship with the client could go back and go through all of this, you know, what do you think? Or, depending on how its structured, go back to the account manager with a bit of a brief and kind of a look, with all of this, you know, can you take it to the client? So, all round, it's about giving a really good client service. But it's definitely, definitely for me about working hand in hand together. Jenny  And from what you've said, like the skill set, you're kind of assuming that those roles are different, you know, the project manager role and the account manager role, which I agree is the ideal scenario. It's just that still I find agencies have this account manager that's expected to do both. And, you know, I don't know about you, but I found that you either have a leaning towards one skill set or another.  Nadine  Yes.  Jenny  You know, but I haven't fully formed my views on this, but I'm starting to feel quite strongly about it. And I'm quite, it's difficult when I'm training account managers that also have to do the day to day delivery, and all of that, that entails. I'm teaching them a skill to, you know, ways to understand the client's business more, to you know, see where the opportunities is to add more value. But that feels like an extra thing for them to do because quite frankly, they're just in the fire, in the weeds of projects. It's not always the case, but it can be that kind of fact. Nadine  It depends on the agency doesn't it and it depends on the size. And also it depends, all of a sudden if a project comes in and the project manager hasn't got capacity, somebody's got to run it. So maybe if it's a small one, then the account manager can run it. But sometimes, where that then becomes a problem is with an account manager is looking after that relationship, and the project manager is looking after that project, they can, you know, if a problem happens within the project, and the account manager is managing it and got to sort of flag that, and then trying to, you know, keep that relationship, brilliant, the two can butt slightly. So this is a tricky one, it is a tricky one. I mean, we do work with some agencies where we work with account managers to just give them a bit of sort of project management background and sort of training and mentoring just so they can fit in with the agency and do what they need to do properly. But, they are two different skill sets. And they are two different hats. And so I don't think all account managers even want to be project managers.  Jenny  Have you seen any trends? Like when when you said earlier, I was laughing to myself, because you're right, like there are these different trends? I was approached by an agency in the last few months saying that they didn't agree with account managers. And, they they used to have these brilliant accounts, but they kind of over time lost them. And the two things, you know, and so they were looking at reinstating account management, again, as a function. So I just do think that there are trends and ebbs and flows. And do we really need these people on what really, what's the value that they're bringing? So I mean, I know that's a big topic in itself. But it's really interesting to hear your thoughts on this just another question, because a lot of the account managers are starting to separate the role. So what advice would you give to an account manager that might feel a little bit threatened by the fact that well, I've always owned the client relationship. And now I've got a project manager that's come on the scene, because we're splitting the roles, you know, yay, for me, but actually, I feel a bit threatened by the fact that are we both going to contact the client, how does that kind of work? Nadine  No, and again, that needs to be defined. And that should be good job descriptions, and all of that kind of thing. But I think an account manager needs to understand that, number one, a project manager will be moved from account to account to account to account, probably on working on all sorts of different projects with different clients, and unless you're in a massive ad agency, and you know, you're assigned to that account, and that's who you work with. But the roles and responsibilities are very different. You know, the project manager is managing the risks log, managing a shedule, managing resourcing, doing progress reports, and, you know, creating a statement of work. So in all of those things an account manager wouldn't want to do and has no interest in doing, a project manager doesn't take client out for lunch, the account manager does! Jenny  We get to do the great stuff. I think it's a really big topic. And and I'm going to be speaking to a few people on the podcast about this. And I've just, it is a great topic for me just through observing, you know, the struggles, the fors, the against of this hybrid versus separation. And I don't know whether, you know, the separation is more, it was more traditional in digital agencies anyway. But the more traditional sort of offline agencies that are now fully digital, it's they're making that transition. And that's why they're suddenly separating the two. Nadine  A panel would be good, you could do a panel of account managers and see that and see where, get the opinions from both sides and sort of have a bit of a debate about it.  Jenny  That's a really good idea. Thank you. And I'd like to talk to you about the way agencies work. So I know Agile, Waterfall, you know, people there's a lot of debate about which one's better. And then Wagile, which is something that I didn't sort of I didn't even know that was a term, but I got you know, I can see what that means. But can you talk me through maybe the the fors and against for each of those kinds of ways of working. Nadine  So Agile, you know, software development, intuitive. Solutions evolve as you go on. It's really good. I mean, it works really well on product based projects. Very much the ideal is that you have a pot of money, and you're working towards products, you have your team and you just keep iterating, iterating to make this thing better, and then you can release and then come back, release and then come back. Waterfall is a bit more I suppose, old fashioned, whereas you have to do each stage at a time and you can't start one stage until you finish the next stage. I'm a bit old fashioned, but you know, all the more younger, trendy people in my team are way over in the Agile sort of camp. Wagile is where you do some of the stages of the project in a step order. So you might do your discovery phase, if say if it's a website you might do discovery phase first, where you do your initial wireframes, and then your design and then a tech spec, and then a functional spec. And then once all of those you've got, the client can sign all of those off and say, yes, that is what I want, you can then move into an Agile fashion for your field development and new testing, you know, pushing design in there doing two week sprints, or whatever it may be. I think a lot of agencies have have taken elements of it. So they'll do daily stand ups, they will have the boards where they move things along, they'll do it in two week sprints. So I think a lot of agencies have taken elements that suit them and suit their projects, which I think is the right way to go. The one thing sometimes is that clients don't understand how to work in an Agile fashion. So it may be that you work in an Agile fashion internally, but not outwardly to the clients. And also, a lot of the time, a client has got a fixed budget, fixed deadline and a fixed idea of what it is that they want. So you can work development and testing within your Agile phase and that really suits teams and you know, I think it's great. But at the end of the day, you've got that fixed thing that needs to be delivered. So hence Wagile. Jenny  Thank you for explaining that you've explained it so, so well. I was just thinking about like costing and your right that just as you were talking, I was thinking the client usually wants to know, right, I've got this in my budget that I've got approved from my C suite. And that's what I've got. And I was just wondering, how do you even cost Agile? Or, you know, how do you cost it up and, in your experience, if you found that one is kind of easier to kind of predict what the profitability is going to be on a certain project? Have you got any kind of view on that? Nadine  If you do a discovery phase beforehand, and you get all of those deliverables, so when it goes from sales into production, and you do you know, your wireframes safe, we just take a website, for the ease of it, of wireframes, your initial sort of design might do three designs, cut it down to one to two routes, then into one, then do your tech spec and func spec. You know, for the end of that, you should have a full idea of exactly what it is you're going to deliver. And then the basis of that when you then move into production, you do another statement of work. And then you can cost out, we know based on this design, on these amount of pages and on building those we know development wise, we're going to need this amount of time. And then there's a ratio that you then say, the amount of development days we've got here, we can do a percentage on testing and then we can put this sensitive project management. So it should be a bit clearer. I spoke to a new client the other day, I think he's probably about my age as well. So we were having exactly this conversation. And he said I keep going around and thinking is it because I'm old fashioned. It's just and I said what I just don't think that works for your agency for the projects you're running. So again, and that's why we go into places and do the process consultancy, because it's not one fits all it is based on who the people are within the agency. And if you've got a very development led agency, they will definitely want to work in a different way to a very design led agency. So it really can can change. No way's right. Jenny  No and just as you're talking there, I'm thinking that's a really good investment of time, isn't it? To get someone like yourself that can see the bigger picture that's experienced enough to see how it's worked in different agencies and different because as you say, every agency has a different nature of the types of projects they're running, different preferences, different sort of traditions in how they run. So that sounds like a no brainer to me. That's a really good use of time I would have thought. You mentioned you touched on this earlier Nadine about remote working. And funnily enough, I was going to tell you, I've got very good friend that is a project manager and freelance project manager. And I remember like we were quite close, we talked quite a lot. And she often said to me, because I say 'Oh, someone wants some work done. Are you free?' And inevitably she wasn't because she's so popular. But the distance from her was like she's in North London and it was in South London. And the agency said no, she's too far away. And this was only like, I don't know, obviously before last year, but now things have so changed because everyone's doing you know work remotely. So what have you seen in the world of project management in terms of everyone working remotely? What have been some of the advantages and challenges? Nadine  I know everybody's happy to not be spending the money on the train fare. And home at eight o'clock at night because we live in Brighton, but I think I mean, a lot of agencies are actually, you know, they were there anyway. So they'd have that hybrid of not everybody having to be in the office every day. So I think that was it was coming anyway. But what it did was it just slammed everybody into it, didn't it? I've been on another panel and talked about this, it's so difficult. Some people, me included, I'm really sociable, I love being in an office, I love to be with people, I love to go to the pub on a Friday afternoon, you know, all of that social interactions, really, you know, I love and yet I spoken to a lot of other people saying, I just love it, I don't want to go anywhere, you know, I'm really happy with this. So I think there's going to be a hybrid of a bit of both. And I think that's great. I think what's really come out of this and we've got busy, thankfully, because of it, is because it's been realised that you really need to be solid on your communications within your team, you really need to have systems and processes really set up and everybody needs to understand them because you're not together. So people just could be doing randomly different things without even knowing that the other person doesn't know that or should be doing that. So I think that's what's really come out of it is the need for really solid communication and a re-look in some in agencies, things to look at the processes and systems that they have and do what they did have, does that now work? Because it's not in all cases now. Jenny  And maybe did you, have you found that some agencies were relying too heavily on having people in the same room talking to each other and realise suddenly, gosh, you know, that the communication isn't as fluid and therefore, oops, the system's just falling down in some way? Nadine  Massively. Yes. I mean, I listened to a talk yesterday, and it was exactly about this. And there was a creative guy on there and he said, we just miss going into that room with all those post it notes and sticking things up and bouncing ideas off each other. And he said, they have found that difficult, so they will go back in to do those things. But I think also a lot of people have a lot of people have downsized on their office, because they realise they just don't need that space now. So it's a yeah, it's a great big topic of conversation, I find it really interesting how everything's gone at the moment. But definitely, there's a definite need to be really solid on on how projects run from project management perspective because if you're on your own and you're not communicating properly, things can quickly move out of control. Jenny  It has that kind of knock on effect about you know, availability as well, doesn't it? You know, at the beginning, I think some cultures, some agency cultures where there wasn't a high level of trust, maybe, or maybe the senior managers have never worked with people working from home all the time and it's so strange. It's like, well, how am I going to know they're working? Or, you know, and how am I going to know that you're available? And that there's all of that has had to be established hasn't it? And I think there's been a bit of a mindset change from a senior leadership point of view, that's what I've seen, is that my gosh, you know, we've actually made this work. And it's absolutely fine. I remember reading a book called Drive by Dan Pink years ago, have you ever read that book, don't know if you've heard of it? And at the time of reading, it was all about this new way of working, where you give the person the task and say, 'look, I don't care, where you work from, or how you get it done, it's just got to be done by this time', and someone just does it in their own time. And I remember thinking at the time, that's so future thinking, but actually, it's becoming more of a reality, I think. And talking about kind of the future of where it's going, what do you see changing or changes coming up for the world of project management? Nadine   I see us continuing on, to be honest with you. I mean, we've been going for 12 years now. The reason we're called Project Management On Demand is because initially, it was just me. I think, from a traditional standpoint, everybody used to think you need a project manager, you need one full time, but actually, hence the 'on demand', you don't always need a project manager full time. So from a cost effective way that's really good. And I think that could be said the same for account managers working in that way. And it's definitely the same for, say a designer because they may create a design it's then delivered and then the client has to review it for five days. So they've got five days free, if they're not, you know, within an agency, so they'll work on different things. So I think definitely flexibility. I think also, I think what a lot of this done, as well as made people realise that, you know, I know a lot of parents now that I like, I travelled all the time, every day, and I didn't see my kids and I didn't eat dinner with my wife, or, you know, my husband, whatever it may be. So I think there's a lot more flexibility and wanting of not just full on work, work, work work, you know. So I think that's, that's a really positive thing. Jenny  I agree with you, just as you were saying that, it struck me that when I was working full time, like I've been in the industry since the early 90s, I know you're a bit younger than me, I don't know if you've been anywhere, but lots of years. But I remember watching because I don't have kids, but I used to see some of my peers and my friends leaving the industry because they had children, and not being able to get back into the industry because it just wasn't acceptable to work part time, from home at all, and no flexibility. And I, I used to think how sad that was, because really experienced very, very good people were leaving the industry in droves, just because they'd hit that, you know, moment in time where they were gonna have a family. So I think that's a real positive. Nadine  Obviously, I set the business up because I had a child. So I was working in London in an ad agency, and I couldn't go back. So it's exactly that. And then today, I've got a lot of mums who don't want to work full time because, you know, looking after the house, they've got the school run, some of them have got, I've got some dads as well. So and then I've also got, I've got people who will really be quite entrepreneurial, so they're setting up their own businesses and they need two or three days a week to do that yet, they'll kind of say, 'Well, I need a bit of a plugin'. So then I'll say, 'Okay, well, I've got this on demand on and you could do that three days over the course of the week but still give you the time and flexibility to set up your business', or to only work part time but earn a reasonable rate, because a lot of those people like saying they've got all that experience. Yet they don't want to go into an office every day for full hours, it's just the whole thing is changing. And I love it. And I it's right. Jenny  I think so too. And I'm quite excited by the prospect because funnily enough, like at the end of last year I was setting my whole business up to run remotely, because I have a vision for me working three months of the year somewhere else. But there was always that doubt in the back of my mind that people were going to accept doing training remotely. You know, I know I've been using Zoom for years, and I've seen that you have that real intimacy, with what I do in the coaching and stuff. But there's always that thing about do you actually need someone in the room training everybody, you know, physically? So I had that doubt but this pandemic is just proof, as you said, we've just accelerated forward 10 years. So it can be done. And it has been done. Nadine  I think one of the people on this panel yesterday was talking, they were in a co-working, they own the co-working space in Brighton. And I know a lot of the agencies that we work with have let go of their offices, and they're using some of the co-working spaces, because they can either just have a smaller space in there, or they can, you know, meet in there for meetings and meet their clients in there. Well the co-working space is so good these days. So yeah, I'll just say the whole landscape's changed. And it's, it's exciting I think. Jenny  It is the flexibility and as you said earlier on about the overhead, you know, if you were investing in an office building, that now in the future doesn't have to be the case, you know, you can actually reduce your overhead. So, yeah, I know it's been tough, and it's still tough, but there are a lot of upsides. Nadine  It was a massive key about, you know, getting everybody together, being face to face, you know, working as a team, you know, there's nothing that can replace that. Jenny  Yeah, people have missed that and we've all done in certain ways. I know that a lot of agencies that are listening to this have, you know, micro businesses, they're very small businesses, as I said before about looking to scale. At what point in the agency's growth, do you think it's essential to have a project manager? Nadine  Again, I was thinking about this question. It depends on the makeup of the agency. And it also depends on the type of the projects. Social agencies, you know, the guys that run those projects they sell, they self run and self manage. So you might not necessarily even need a project manager but for me in a sort of a smaller agency, anywhere between six to eight people that might be the pull point to start having a project manager in because you think you know, there could be five projects ongoing in an agency at that point of about 30K each, say, for example, and that's quite a lot for the team to run, if that person is also doing the design or doing the operations in the business, so it just gets to that stretch point where the other guy's are over capacity and they need that help they need that assistance. Jenny  I can imagine once you get a good project manager in place, it really makes a difference to everything, doesn't it? And actually, that's where your services step in, really, isn't it? Because if you are on that growth point, and as you said before, most agencies run by project by project basis, the agency of record is kind of diminishing more and more. So, you do have the ability to have someone on a interim basis to see how things go, what a difference it makes to everybody else, so that they can focus on what they do well, and then take it from there.  Nadine  So yeah, I mean, 10 years ago, I worked for a really cool agency they were an augmented reality agency, and I didn't know anything about augmented reality 10/11 years ago. And so they needed help. So I went into start working on the projects. And then naturally, that was, well, you haven't got a document for this, we can't run this without having that. And then that came to to well, we need to record this and we need a process for this, and we need a system for this. So I worked with them about three days a week over the course of the week and started running the projects, implementing the process. And then it was very obvious that they really liked having a project manager. So then I did a job ad for them, interviewed the first tranche of project managers for them, then said, this one is a good one, you know, you meet them now. And then the project manager started and then I handed over and I rolled myself out. And then if they were ever overcapacity, I'd go in and run the odd project here or there. But yeah, so it's a nice way of doing it because you, if you haven't taken on a project management before, you might not understand exactly what that role is, and how it's gonna benefit you. But if you can try it out, you know, that's the best way and then there's no risk to the business as such. Jenny  Fantastic. Honestly, I just think that's an absolute no brainer. Can you think of anything that we haven't covered Nadine that would be useful for anyone to know, like any tips or advice to help agencies run their projects more smoothly? Nadine  But for any of those smaller agencies? You know, I'm happy to have a chat with anybody anyway. But for any of those smaller agencies, who may not be doing documentation as they should be to cover them, then, you know, that is something really to consider. So the statement of work - What is the project?  Why I'm doing it? Who are the stakeholders? What's the cost? What are the risks? Progress reporting? I always bang on about that. I think it's really important. You know, what did we do last week? What are we doing this week? What are any blockers, what are any risks? I worked in an agency once and the client was a lawyer in a law firm, we're building a new website for them. And the chap in the law firm, was a bit of a junior, and I could see that he's struggling. And I kept saying to him, you know, I think we need to take this high, I think need help. And then in the end, it looked like everything had fallen down. And of course, it's my fault, isn't it as the project manager. So the account manager came knocking on the door? So I said, No. And they said, what's going on with this project. So I zipped up 20 weeks worth or 16 weeks worth of progress reports and said, this is what's going on. So that's why I'm an advocate for that and just fully, you know, need that time sheeting. Some agencies don't do it these days, I advocate that you should, how do you know whether you're hitting the budget we've put to it? How do you know how big your margin is? You know, where did you go wrong in that costing? And what could you do better next time, because the main key is you want to make a margin to make a profit, to be able to go on some nice holidays. So there's all of that. So we've also got a whole set of documentation. So all of those documents, we've got risk logs, and all of those kind of things, that for small agencies, it's not a system, you know, it's not a great big monday.com but it's a Word template, or it's an Excel spreadsheet. So if anybody wanted any of those, then I'm more than happy to send those over.  Jenny  Brilliant. I think that's a fantastic offer. And I can imagine that's lots of agencies listening, thinking, oh, yeah, we really need that. Nadine  So even if they if they have one, you know, you could just take the statement of work and compare one to the other. And we're going to put that in because that's really important.  Jenny  So, yes, the wording on some of this is really useful, isn't it? So let's compare what we've got and see if we've ticked all the boxes. Brilliant, Nadine. Well, thank you so much. Where can people get hold of you? How can people contact you and who are the best people to contact you? Nadine  So people reach me on my email, which is nadine@projectmanagementod.co.uk. And the website is Project Management OD.co.uk. I'm on LinkedIn, obviously, as Nadine Schofield. The people who should contact?  We work with, well, yesterday, I met with a chief technical officer because he needed a programme manager. So you know, he got in contact with me. Business owners, head of project management head of PMO. Project managers in general, I'm always looking for really good project managers. So I'm really keen if anybody wants to come on board, or if their circumstances change where they don't want to work full time, and then want to work on demand, and I'm always looking for good people as well. So the other end of it as well. Absolutely. And that includes Project Coordinators as well. Jenny  Great. Okay, well, we'll put all of those links in the show notes so that people can get hold of you quite quickly and easily. Honestly, Nadine, this has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you for sharing so many tips and advice for other agencies. And yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure. So thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.

Jenny  So, Sam, a very big warm welcome to you, to the podcast. So we were introduced by a mutual friend, Tina Fegent. And I'm very grateful to her, because it's always good for me to get recommendations for who I should get on the podcast. And so I'm going to hand over to you in a moment, Sam to give you to give your background. But I just thought it was really interesting because Sam has worked predominantly on the client side, in very senior level marketing positions. And she's essentially now an interim marketing director. And I was just looking through all of your history, Sam, and you'ved worked with some fantastic brands, you know, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. There's Mercedes Benz, Whitbread, Avios, MS Society, Anglian Water. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of all the brands you've worked with. So I think this is going to be really valuable discussion for us, because I think it's really, you've come across so many agencies in your time. So getting your perspective and sharing your experiences are going to be really valuable. So welcome. And would you mind spending a couple of minutes just talking about you your background? And who you help? And maybe some, give some flavour for your experience working with agencies? Sam  Yeah, absolutely. Hi, Jenny. So my name is Sam Bridger. I'm an interim marketing director and consultant. I think the thing to say with me is that I started agency side. So I started my career at J Walter Thompson, JWT, and Gray. And so I'm really empathetic to the agency point of view. And I've also done a stint at the AAR. So I've also done that intermediary piece, I think you've said, I've kind of been on all three sides of the pitch table, if you like. So I think that really helps me as a client to work with agencies and understand the demands that face them. You know, I've been a client for 25 years been an interrim for 14 years. So I've kind of worked with more agencies than I can remember and probably run more pitches and I've had hot dinners. And so yeah, lots of different experience. And, currently, now I'm looking for the next challenge as either a strategic consultant with an agency or with a client. So yes, it's, as we come out of furlough, it's all starting to look quite exciting again, now. Jenny  It's getting very busy, isn't it at the moment? So I love that that's quite a special background as well, given that you've worked for two, you know, both sides of the fence, as it were. And I mean, from your perspective, because a lot of debate lately, Sam has been around the value of account management, could you give me your perspective on what value you see the role of account manager bringing to maybe both the agency and the client side? Sam  You know, there's lots of examples of this. And it's, I think, the first thing to say is recognising that the role of account manager it's a difficult balancing act, because you're there to manage the clients expectations, but also to sell the agency product. And you know, sometimes they're very clearly caught between two stools.And it is a challenge, particularly if there is a big disagreement over a creative route, that the account manager has to walk that line. But it much like the marketing director is the voice of the client ,sorry, the voice of the customer I should say within their business, the account manager has to be the voice of client in the agency, they have to be representing the needs and the wants and the issues that the client is facing, and therefore really need to understand them. And maybe we'll talk about that a little bit more later on. So, you know, I think what clients really appreciate is to understand any kind of internal dialogue that may have gone on about a creative brief, for example, if it's being presented, we don't necessarily want the account managers to just come to us and go, you know, here it is. Everybody loves it. If that's not the case, you know, be honest with us, because it's such a subjective process creativity, that there's never a right solution. And understanding the dialogue and discussions that have gone on behind the scenes does sometimes help us go you know, what, actually,  that's a good point. Maybe we hadn't thought of it that way, rather than well, they're selling you this, you've gotta buy this , you know, and I think  that very old school way of working, I'm hoping it's kind of going away, but I still see it, you know, it's still it does still rear its head occasionally. And it's just it's a shame because absolutely, you know, everything that I do, and the way that I manage my own teams, the way that I manage my agency is honesty is the most important thing that you can have. And you're going to get the best work if you have that kind of discussion. And that understanding and ultimately, as an account manager, if you don't believe in the work, don't try and get someone else to buy it. Jenny  I love that. I think that's really insightful. So how do you propose that an account manager does that? Well, so you said that it was really useful to hear the internal dialogue behind the scenes of maybe giving those creative concepts and presentations more context for you, rather than saying that this is the right route and being very sort of salesy, and you know, tell me a bit more more about that. Sam  I think just rewind a step, I think, how clients manage agencies is absolutely critical to all of this. And I think I am always staggered, whenever I move into a new organisation, quite how bad so many clients are at it, the amount of times I'll go to an organisation, and the agencies are being kept separate they're at arm's length, they're only being called in when there's a brief to answer. And for me, to get the best out of an agency, they have to be part of a team that, you know, it's a team effort, marketing. it always has been, and you know, it's not down to the client, it's not down to the agency. So they are a big part of our external marketing team. And so they all need to be around that table. So one of the first things I always do is to, is to bring people together. And you know, I'm quite often have them looking at one brief and coming up with the answer together, because I think that's really important, that kind of shared knowledge and that shared expertise. And I have yet to work with an agency that hasn't appreciated that, that hasn't thought, it's really good to see what the other guys are doing. And to get that, those new sparks of insight and those new little nuggets from bits of the business that they maybe don't work on. And it was really important as well, when to keep them in the loop, particularly, the kind of work that I do is often transformational. It's about helping the business  change directions, put new strategies in place, etc. And when the business is going through all of that particular change, you need the agencies on site, you know, you need to keep them up to date with everything that's going on. And the last big business I've worked with, which is Anglian Water, there was a dozen agencies that, you know, they hadn't seen for ages that they just worked on this little project, well it was a big project, but it was kind of over to one side. So when we kind of brought around the table and said, this is the strategic ambition of this business, they were like, really, okay, brilliant, you know, that's really exciting, and really motivating. And here's a load of ideas that I've got. And it just sparks all of that creative energy, which I absolutely love. And, you know, in this business, there's no harm in networking with your peers, let's be honest. So it's always a, you know, it's a win win for the agency as well. So I've also taken it to extreme, particularly back in, in my Smart days, where I literally said one brief one budget, and said to them, you pitch for how much you need to spend on this, because I can't sit here arbitrarily and say, Well, I'm going to give this much production and there's much, they are just kind of pulling numbers out the air. So asking the agency to collaborate not only on the strategic direction that we need to take, but also on how we're actually going to spend that money, and then which media channels and which is the best way to do it. And it's always produced really, really great results. So I think, you know, I've never understood clients who think that, you know, agencies are suppliers, not partners, and that we don't need to kind of keep them in the loop on things. Jenny  Why do you think that persists? Sam  Laziness, possibly, and probably just a general, a genuine ignorance. And I don't mean that in a, you know, an offensive way, I just mean, that lack of understanding about what they can actually bring, I think there's a, you know, that one of the biggest issues client side as well, that I see is, is marketing directors who are appointed without classic marketing training. So it's either coming from sales roles from other general management roles, from ops from, you know, from all sorts of places who don't know about marketing. And if they're not instilling best practice on their teams, the teams are not going to learn, it's not going to, you know, it's not going to cascade its way through to the junior members of staff. And I think that's, that's a part of the problem. And also, quite simply, as well, because it is an expense, you know, you're not getting those people, if you're a good client, you're not expecting those people to come around the table for free. So you've got to think about how you're remunerating the agencies and and think about how you want to pay them for their thinking time, as well as their actual productive creative time. So it is difficult and on a tight budget, you know, there is a way to manage it. But there are ways that you can manage it without, you know, hugely increasing your agency bill. Jenny  What do you think agencies could do differently to kind of open that door up for themselves? Because you sound like the ideal client? I'm sure there's lots of agencies kind of cheering thinking I want to work with Sam. But what could what's they're, what's the agency's role in this? How could they do anything differently, to try to open that door to the strategic table?    Sam  I think it's a good question, Jerry, I think what can help is just taking that initiative sometimes. So if you know that you're working with clients that does operate in that area, kind of divide and conquer kind of way, then try and find ways to bring the agencies together yourself. So perhaps, you know, run an afternoon workshop where you invite all the agencies together to talk about an issue either in the sector or with a particular client or with a particular brand or whatever it might be. Do it in the afternoon, have a couple of hours of workshopping, and then a couple of hours of you know, going out for a drink and getting to know each other. And it just set that ball rolling and just demonstrate a way to add the value because that's a good way of the client seeing that, this is probably a good idea, maybe I should do this more often. The model that I always run, which always seems to work really well is that there are weekly status meetings between the day to day team, so the account managers and the brand managers or whatever their equivalent is client side, there are monthly planning meetings with marketing directors possibly or the level below, heads of, and planners and account directors, and then quartlery all agencies and at the quarterly all agency, it's a really good opportunity to get people together to see what's happened in the last quarter to think about what's coming up in the next quarter. Review the results because I'm very much result oriented marketing director, I'm not just for that looked nice, fire and forget, let's go on to the next thing, so look at themselves, and sometimes also to bring in guest speakers if you like, guest presenters. So quite often I bring in people from other parts of the business that they've heard of, or they know the area that they look after, but they've never met them to explain the projects that they're working on and bring those to life. And it's just again, it's just a great way of getting people around the table talking. And I do it internally as well as client. So always put into in place internal comms planning processes, which involve the individual business managers in the comms planning process and make sure, I've worked with lots of businesses, where they've come to the marketing department and said, you know, do me a leaflet, or you know, give me a Facebook ad, or whatever it might be, you know, we're not the colouring in department. So tell me what your objectives are. And we'll tell you how we'll solve it for you with our agency team. So it's really important to kind of get those guys involved. And I think I remember one of my absolute best moments, Anglian Water, when there was a person from the parks and recreation team, talking to a person from essentially the wastewater sewerage team about a problem, these two people had never even met before, never been in a room before. And yet, because they were talking about shared piece of land, all of a sudden, they were like, Oh, my god, yes, you could do this. And we could do this. And then that would happen. And it was like, bing, you know, it's that kind of lightbulb moment that I really love those making those connections.   Jenny  I think this is so spot on. And you're absolutely right, because the earlier you bring everybody into the process in the beginning, you get everybody's views, and everyone feels like they're part of it, you get all the buy in, and then you take them on the journey. And when those decisions are made, they very much feel like they've been part of it from the beginning. So I'm absolutely in alignment. And I love that that the fact that you've also said not only for agencies, but also internally, as well as how you, you operate. And I see that there might be some agencies thinking, this sounds quite ideal, but where you have an agency that perhaps has multiple, different offerings. You know, if you're coming together with an agency that also has multiple types of offerings, it's almost becomes a little bit competitive in terms of ooh we know what the client's strategy is, now, we're going to propose something, and we're going to propose something, and it where you don't have specialists that are very siloed, in different areas, any kind of thoughts on that, how you can sort of eliminate the competitiveness. Sam  Sure, and competition is a good thing. So my first thing was like, don't be afraid of that. Because if you're a good agency, you'll win your share, you know, your protect your share. And if you're not, you'll learn from the others that did. So I think, you know, the days of individual specialties, as I say, are long gone. But what I've also found with clients is that if you look at you know, whenever you're running a pitch, and you start looking at the agency, they're out there, all the agencies claim they can do everything they always do, you know, we do everything from leaflets to full blown TV campaigns, you know, and very rarely are agencies, brilliant at all of them. And I'm kind of talking about the mid size to small sized ones, not the big groups that have got a solution for everything. So very rarely are those sorts of agencies good at everything, and they've all got things that they're better at, they've all got their areas of specialism even if they can deliver those other things. And with a client like Anglian Water, for example, which is my most recent one, they were using these sort of small to midsize agencies for specific projects, even though there were projects that other agencies are doing that, you know, agency A could easily have picked up as well. So that also helps us it's kind of bringing these people into the room say, Well, we've now got this project. And you know, we're going to ask you guys to pitch for it. Because even though we've appointed you to be our CRM agency, we know that you're capable of delivering this or we wanted you to be our digital agency, but you're equally capable. So it also helps us to have lots of different skills around the room and lots of different opportunities for new creative solutions. And it stops agencies getting kind of tired, you know, with that, well we always deliver the CRM, so we'll just keep delivering the CRM gives them an opportunity as well to re engage in the business in a different way. Jenny  You're absolutely right. It provides that kind of competitive environment a little bit, doesn't it? Which is beneficial to the client because they're going to get the both of both both worlds, best of both worlds. I think also it does keep agencies on their toes and keeps them more engaged because what's the price you pay for sort of doing those mini internal pitches is the fact that you always get to see the client's strategy and you feel bought in. So it almost compounds and cements that relationship, I think which is really, really beneficial. Sam  From a client's point of view as well, you don't want to be doing another pitch to bring another agency on board. And this is the other thing I see is going back to my days at Mercedes, one of the challenges that we had there was that we needed to save, I think something like 130 million euros over the period of a year across across the major European markets in one year. And a large proportion of that fell to the marketing teams to try and make savings and there was so much wastage, it was crazy. And in Mercedes  UK, which covered Mercedes, Chrysler, Maybach, and Smart, which I headed up, we had no agency roster in place at all. So I thought, well, the first thing we need to do is just see who we're working with. And I identified 130 agencies working with MB UK, which is probably not that surprising, you know, from the from the big pan brand media and creative agencies right through to specialist agencies that could put on commercial truck shows, and others that would do golf days for VIPs. So the first thing to kind of put those guys in order and say well you're Tier one, because you do everything,  your Tier three, and then understand within that which ones we needed to have contracts and retainers with and which ones we were just using on a project basis. And once that was in place, it was just so much easier for everybody around the business to go, I need an agency that can do XYZ, so who have we got ok, brilliant, I'll go talk to them. What had been happening in the past was that every time a project came up, they were going out looking for somebody new, because they didn't know that that part of business was working with somebody who was really good. And that helped the agencies not only to generate more business, but obviously to understand the breadth of our business better and get involved in lots of different things and start making the connections on our behalf. And I think that is one thing as well, which is always a great side benefit of this, that you as a client, and particularly in some businesses can be quite siloed, you can be in your division or your team or whatever, focusing on your objectives and your projects. What we need to do, we really need to do X, Y, and Zed and we want to go to I don't know, let's pick those of the Game Fair in Hertfordshire, you know, this year to have a stand there and they go, Oh, you know what, we're already there. But it's my Maybach. So you probably want to kind of coordinate with those guys. And sometimes they help you know what's going on in your own business and stuff that you wouldn't normally kind of come across. So like I say I very rarely see it as a lose situation. But it is it takes a lot of work set it up. Jenny  I presume as always as well, you probably get resistance to it. Because I think the benefit that you have Sam is going into so many different types of organised organisations, that feels to me. So you know, so what a great starting point, collaboration, communication and getting everyone to speak to each other. But what kinds of resistance have you had to that?   Sam  A lot. Yeah, I know, it's the thing that I always joke with that I go into an organisation and they say we've got this strategic challenge. help us solve it. Okay. Okay, great. And then I spend my first couple of months, at least the first 10 weeks, going around asking people what the issues are really getting under the skin of the business. And having that  my golden question, which is how can I help you do this better? And they brilliant, here's all the stuff that really annoys me. Here's the stuff that needs fixing, because they can offload on someone who is impartial and isn't there with a you know, a political agenda just there to sort something out, and I go great, and I put it all together. And kind of present that kind of along later and say Okay, so this is the strategy, this is what we need to do it's all the stuff you've told me. So this is what we now need to start changing. And I always get always, always always this 'ah'. When I said I wanted everything to change. I didn't mean me.  So I have to work around that. And it always had to go through this like Yeah, yes, that norming, storming, performing thing of setting up new teams, you always, always get it about three months in. Yeah, sorry, that means I've got to change as well? Not sure I signed up for that. So you then persuade them, you can work with them, you then show them what we're trying to collectively achieve and how ultimate say how I'm helping to make their job easier. And make it make it much more enjoyable for the teams and make it much more easy to understand how to measure their results and you know, achieve their objectives and all that good stuff. So you will always go through that change. The only way you can do it is to tackle it head on and say I know it hurts, but this is why we're doing it. There are always some way you're going to have to push them a little bit harder and they're always some that will just jump willingly and that's just the nature of the beast.   Jenny  So not only have you got to be a good marketeer and strategist you also need to be a fantastic influencer to get anything done. Sam  Especially as an interim, because you've got such a short space of time to do it. So there is no I'll just, if you take on permanent job, and I remember this compensation quite readily when I handed over to the permanent hire when I was brought in to set up a strategy and a team while they were looking for the permanent director, and we had our hand over meeting, and I said, Okay, the things that you just need to be aware of is A, B, and C. And he said, Well, I'll just kind of spend the first three months getting the lay of the land, getting my feet under the table before I kind of dig into those. And I thought, great, you know, you've got the luxury of doing that for me it's a complete waste of time because I just told you what's going on. But hey, but you know, you as an interim, you don't have the luxury of time to build those relationships. So you have to do them on the hoof. And you have to do the work and build  relationships and and try and bring people on that journey with you. Jenny  Do you think your skills in your agency life helped you or help you now?   Sam  Oh yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad I started agency side, you know. I know, the skills I have now, you know, prehistoric and, you know, the days of buyer books and spot matching by hand when I was a TV buyer with 13 different channels, and you know, but starting at JW T was just fantastic. And such an honour for me to have started there. And they had the mantra at the time, which if you can buy TV, you can buy anything, which is true, because it was the hardest negotiation, it was like, it was like being a city trader buying TV back in those days, you know, people standing up on the phone shouting in the media department. And I'm sure it's a whole lot more pleasant now. But yeah, and it was bloody hard work. But during that, working through pitches, you know, understanding lots of different clients simultaneously working from Esso to Kellogg's to Unilever to all different pitch clients, Swaddlers, which is a nappy brand, which was my first client that was my own client. Yeah, to go through all of that. Absolutely. And I think I there's something, we were talking earlier on about good account management. And for me that being in touch and  being a really good communicator is really, really important. And the account director I worked with when I was at Anglian Water, one of the agencies there was absolutely brilliant, you know, she was always on it, she was a great communicator, she, you know, you just knew that she was on every everything, but she worked ridiculous hours. And I think that, for me, that's one of the things that needs to really change in agency life, that agencies still have rubbish work life balance, you know, you still see them pulling the 2am pitch, you know, and it's like, as a client, I've never done that, unless you've got a kind of job, which involves some kind of emergency response. So I think there is there is work to do on that side   from the agency side definitely. I have every sympathy for it, that needs to change.  Jenny  The pace is unreal, sometimes. I want to focus in on that, what you've just said about communication skills, because I think you're absolutely spot on. The best account managers I've ever met, are the best communicators, they are, they just have this ability to make sure that everyone in the room feels that they're informed that, you know, everyone feels part of it spoken to heard, felt. And that skill of communication, I think is so key. And what I wanted to ask you was you you've written on your blog, a few pieces, which are really useful for account managers and agencies, because you've, you've kind of shown the both sides of the coin, in the context of pitching, for example, or also going to a, an agency's office as a client who's bringing the business and how you like to be treated. And you gave a few examples, which I thought was really spot on, you know, like, Don't leave me in the reception area with you know, and don't have the person that's on the reception, eating a bowl of spaghetti when I arrive , because it just gives me that impression. And I would love you to, and I don't want to put you on the spot. But because we are in a virtual world, I'm really keen to hear from you. How can account managers  improve their communication skills when everything is on the screen? Sam  Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? I think we were talking to somebody the other day, and they were all kind of getting Zoom fatigue as well. And it almost seems to be the default now. And I was talking, I was setting up a meeting the other day with somebody and her PA was  well, you know, would you like to Zoom? Would you like to FaceTime? Would you like to Skype? And I was like I'd just like to speak on the phone, actually, you know, that wrong? We've forgotten, there is this thing that you can pick up? So, you know, I think it is just about checking in and just trying to you know, we don't have to have everything as a formal meeting. And you know, don't forget that you can text, you can just give a quick buzz, you can just drop a quick email, how's everything going. Is there anything I need to do? Whatever the project is, you know, just checking in because for a client, the account manager is there to kind of take your problems away to just this is what we're trying to do. This is our challenge this is my budget, you know, help just make it happen. And whether it's, whether it's on a Zoom call, whether it's on a shoot it's about dealing with the problems that come along and not making a meal of them and just being calm, being flexible, being professional, just being able to deal with staff and take the pain away. And again, it does come down to remuneration, ultimately, you know, we are aware of that if you are, you know, up to the limit on your hours for that week, that month, then you're not going to proactively begin phoning the client, particularly if you're very busy on other client projects, and like you were saying before, running a million miles an hour, but keeping in touch, just making sure that you're not falling off the radar, I think clients also want to feel like, you know, it is a two way dialogue and they don't want to feel like you're only getting in touch when we're paying you for something, you know, just How's it going? Oh, you know, any, anything we can help with any projects, doesn't always have to be a sales pitch, it can just be, you know, we're here, do you need us. Jenny  What do you think's the most useful way to do that? You know, one way you suggested, you know, is there anything you can help, we can help you with, you know, should we have an update on what's happening, you know, so that we can see how we can help. But if, if that's for a client is a bit, you know, I've got too much to do, I can't, I just quite frankly, don't have the time, what would be a useful way for the account manager to keep that dialogue and keep that contact? Sam  It's really helpful, one of the the things I find really helpful is what the competition up to, you know, there are, we can see, if we take the very basic example. And we can see what ads they put on TV, for example, what we can't see is how well they've done. So anything that you can do behind the scenes to get data to get results to do any kind of analytics on their social media listening, or  you know, did you know, I don't know if you've heard about this, but Brand X has got a real big issue because of.... and you might want to kind of take advantage of it, or Brand X are actually doing really, really well. And you think we should kind of try and up our ante somehow. So just you know, just that kind of broader as well as being another pair of specialist ears out there for us really, and just really helping us because my team is busy running their own projects and managing 1000 things, I'm busy managing them and managing families and managing upwards outputs and keeping the board happy. So to have someone out there to kind of really help us. And I think this is as a as a modern client, if you like one of my biggest moans compared to how things used to be back in the old days. It' so bloody difficult to get decent, consolidated campaign results now, because I get presented with a bunch of statistics from you know, various social media channels, which don't add up to a hill of beans normally in you know, in the real world. And I don't ever have that sense, I very rarely have that sense of was this worth doing? You know, was this worth doing? Or should I just taken that half million quid and put it on bus side, or a TV ad or whatever it might be. So help me really understand that, help  my team understand that because ultimately, again, I've got to stand up in front of the board and justify it. And if I can't understand it, and I can't justify it, I'm not going to be able to give it to them, and therefore they're going to take the budget away next year. So really help us to make the case for why we're doing what we're doing. Jenny  It's so useful. It's such a good tip, you know, bring the client something that they didn't know, competitor information being one being really clear about your campaign results. And that's the real data that you need. An that, you know, how much do you think agencies actually understand the role of the client? Because we talked about the other way around, but you've just said, I'm the one putting my reputation on the line by standing up in front of the C suite, the board and explaining what we're doing and why. And actually, how much understandingdo you think agencies have of the pressures that you're under? Sam  It depends, I think, it's it's very easy when your agency side to think that  the advertising, let's call it that, for simplicity sake, is the only thing that they're dealing with. And you know, and it really isn't it for me, it's the nicest bit of job that I love the most, you know, I love working with agencies, I love the creative process. But I've also got salaries  to review jobs, you know, job evaluations, to put forward,people to recruit boards,  to deal with other strategic things to write, you know, I've got a million other things going on in the business that I have to deal with and stuff gets chucked at you all the time. So it's just, you know, it does help to have some sort of understanding of the context of a marketing directors day and what they are also having to deal with. And that comes back to the earlier point of help them do their job, help them take some of that stuff, if they can. Jenny  Do you think it's useful because this is brilliant tips, by the way, Sam. So thank you. What do you think there's anything else that the agency can do maybe at the beginning of the relationship or the beginning of the project, to create that dialogue to say, look, you know, just it's okay if you spend a couple of minutes just telling us telling us about your role your day, so that we can see the best way of communicating with you on an ongoing basis, or if we have a situation where we need to meet you urgently. You know, what do you prefer? How do we contact you? Do you think there's enough done at the beginning to set the relationship up for success? Sam  Probably not. And you could you could even trace that back to the pitch, actually. So I've got you know some of my pitch horror stories. Which I have many and some quite funny? I think, for me, one of the one of the worst things is when agencies don't let the client talk, and you would, you would say, what does that even a thing? And oh, my god, yes, it's a thing. So I've been to two examples spring to mind where one great agents we walked in, and we loved what they've done with a room, they clearly have got our brand. team seemed great, they were, you know, kind of talking, seem to understand what we were there to do. They spent 50 minutes of an hour presentation talking about another brand, and not even a brand in my sector, to the point where I'm actually sitting next to Paul Phillips from the AAR and I just wrote on the page next to him - make them stop. It was just like, guys, are we ever gonna get to the point here, and they were so desperate to show off this really good, you know, award winning work that they've done for this retail client, but they completely forgotten to talk about us. And suddenly, I'm on another one. I think this is when I was at Mercedes, pitching for CRM agency. And we were sitting around the table and having a good chat. And someone said to me, so Sam, you know about the cars - asked me a question. And I literally opened my mouth to answer. And the MD of the agency jumped up and answered it for me.  Jenny  Yikes. Yeah, you know, the disappointing thing about that is, I always think that the best account people have a really high level of emotional intelligence, social awareness, and they can kind of read a room really well, so that they're able to kind of say, Oh, my God, you know, I would have thought that someone from the agency team would have picked up on the fact that they'd been talking at you for 50 minutes, and that you were showing some level of discomfort, you'd even leaned over to the guy next to you to write something down. I would have liked to have thought that someone would have picked that up. Sam  It's really, as I said, in my blog, and if I look bored, I am. So yeah, absolutely. I think emotional intelligence, it's a really, really good point, Jenny and I also think it is about being genuine and being honest, because I've also worked with account managers who I'd say are quite fake, who kind of almost pretend to be your best friend. And you know, and then when you don't work them anymore, it's like you're dead to me now. I don;t want you to be my best friend, you know, I want a professional friendly relationship if we stay in touch when we stop working together great. And I have done with loads of people. But I don't want that kind of vague, invite me to a party and then leave me standing in the corner because the clients here you know, kind of nonsense, you know, it's like I am not a client. I am Sam, I'm a normal person and I'm quite nice outside of work. So you know, don't need to..well I'm quite nice in work as well. So, um, you know, I think there is that that thing about being genuine. And I'm just always reminded of, you know, going to the extreme lengths of making a client in this case, not the client making the talent happy. And I don't know if you've ever heard that great story about Sarah Gold or Sarah Golding as she now is who's the chief executive of they're called The Partners now aren't they? Yeah, and chair of the IPA and she was our account director when I was at Orange and she was at the Lowe. And yeah, for her famous story was that she was trying to keep Naomi Campbell happy on an Olympus shoot. So she took up smoking just so that she could hang out with her and like you know, for us mere mortals who aren't you know, as great as Sarah , it is about that genuine you know, be a be on side and be a support, be a great help and be friendly and let's have a let's have fun while we're doing this job. But don't be fake about it. Don't be shallow and obviously the more you find out about me and the pressures on my team and my job, the more you can do to help/ Jenny  Do you think and I don't know what view you've got on this. Do you think the best account managers just have that natural kind of interest and charm about them? Or do you think that's something that with coaching and mentoring and help you can actually help someone with? Sam  I think you need a bit of it to start with ,yeah, I think it can be it can be trained, it can be learned like most skills, but if you're not a genuinely empathetic people person, it will be hard for you to do it genuinely as we just talked about and I think that the thing is, it is a real people job because you do have you know as we were saying before, you do have lots of conflicting people and demands to deal with you know, you are kind of the centre of this storm in a lot of ways, so if you're not a people person and you don't know, you're not great at stakeholder management and engagement, then you are going to struggle Jenny  You're in the wrong job basically. Sam  It's about bringing your whole self to work as well, not your fake self. So if you've if you've got an opinion on something, say so you know, by carrier, you know, you're not there to let the creatives and the planners do all the great thinking you have an opinion too. So bring it to the table, you know, I have seen account managers who've just meekly kind of sat there. And I know damn, well, they've got an opinion afterwards, they've told me and I so well say so, bring it to the table, you know, just just, it's difficult, particularly dealing with creatives. Because, you know, quite often you're dealing with creative egos. And that's sometimes hard to get a word in edgewise. But, you know, you have to, you have to be able to trust your convictions, I think. Jenny  I agree. And I think that's a great point. Because a lot of I think a lot of account managers, they don't want to be seen as an order taker, passively taking notes, and just being the person that goes from one side to the next, they want to be seen as a trusted adviser, they want to be bringing the insights, they want to be bringing the competitor information to you, and have a place at the table. It's a really, it's a tool, it's a tactic, but we use the concept of a one page pre meeting plan. Because if you've got a big client meeting going up, coming up, and you're in that meeting with bigger personalities, maybe a creative, maybe a strategist, etc. You have the ability to orchestrate that meeting by getting everyone together before and say, right, this is how it's gonna go. I'm gonna lead I'll bring you in at that point, then I will ask for questions. Because I I personally think that the client then has the perception of that person as valuable. Because if you're sitting in a meeting passively taking notes, you don't say anything, A the clients probably going to think well, what am I paying you for? But also, what value are you bringing, like you say. Sam  Exactly, and a lot of that stems from understanding the client's product properly as well. Again, in my blog, I talk about examples again, mainly they're pitches, but it just shows how critical it's where I've had as a car client been presented with account managers that can't drive, as a client for NHS blood and transplant someone who's never given blood. And working with at Whitbread these sort of 20 something Shoreditch types who'd never even heard of Beefeater Inns let alone set foot in one because it's not a London brand is not trendy and stuff you know, mid market family brands been around for 50 years, you know. So I think it's, it's make sure you learn as much as you can about the product you live and breathe it, you know, drive it, go on it, do whatever, whatever, whatever, eat it, whatever it is, you know, experience it as much as you possibly can, and understand it, because I the one thing that that I have said in a boardroom scenario is that if I've got a seat at this table, I've got a voice at this table. Otherwise, there's no point me being here. And, you know, and I think they need to remember that they're not the note taker, you know, they're not the person to carry the bags and you know, carry the the art folder, they are the person who is there to kind of help cohesively bring, bring everything together. It's an it's an important skill.  Jenny  Absolutely. And that's great advice. Do you have any other because you said you have quite a few horror stories, I'm really keen to hear them. Because you know, someone listening might think, Oh, my God, I think we're going into one of Sam's potential horror stories. And you've just actually given a lot of food for thought already. Do you have any other ones that.. Sam  I could sum it up really with the same philosophy that Whitbread had so Whitbread obviously have Premier Inn, Costa Coffee and four more restaurant brands. And their philosophy was 'our house' when I was working there, and it was really simple, it didn't matter whether you were the chief exec, or a waitress  in a Beefeater or a chambermaid in a Premier Inn, you treated the place as if it was your house. So if someone was coming to your house, you wouldn't give them a dirty glass to drink out of, or you wouldn't you give them dirty sheets to sleep in, you know, make sure that the room was tidy that when they finished drinking, you offered them another drink, you know, so it's just it's that bringing it down to a really simple level. And so when I go to an agency, whether it's a pitch or just a meeting, it's just like, you know, it's that welcome. If that making sure the reception is tidy, you know that that someone having a bowl of spaghetti really happened in the middle of reception and you know, copies of Campaign that were four weeks out of date and stuff like that, or being left sitting there one I remember where I was delayed because of a train and I'd phoned to say I'm really sorry, train delayed, I can't do anything about it. I'm going to be about 10 minutes late, arrived at the agency was left sitting in reception for another 10 minutes. And I'm sitting there thinking, this is the time I'm meant to be in a meeting with you. What are you doing? You know? Why are you leaving me here, or I've turned up for a meeting before my colleague, and I've just been left sitting in an empty meeting room until the colleague arrives. And it's like, I don't want to be treated like royalty, but I also would like a bit of professional courtesy and, you know, maybe you could chat to me and find out a bit about me before the official meeting starts. Back in, this is going back a while but I when I left advertising my first client job was at the RSPB, which is the bird charity. And the big joke is that I know nothing about birds, I can barely recognise a chicken, but I was there to do a commercial job for them. And we had started a search for an agency to celebrate our millionth member at the time. And I ended up running that as an ex agency person. And we went to meet some media agencies and I had obviously come from seven years as a media planner buyer. I was working with two deputy marketing directors or two assistant marketing directors, joint marketing directors, I should say, one who was ex IDB and one who was ex I think Unilever again an FMCG brand, I can't remember, in the mists of time, and the media, one of the major agencies at the pitch treated as if we were like three old ladies who worked in the gift shop. I was at the time, I was like, 28, so I wasn't even an old lady, you know, just the  no bother to check out what our backgrounds were, what we knew. And he started to talk, one of the guys started talking the most random media bullshit at me, which I let him kind of tie himself up in a knot for about 10 minutes and then said, Well, actually, I think it's du du du du du du and the shock on his face. And I said, I'm sorry, I should have told you I was a media planner buyer for eight years. And it was like, you know, serves you bloody right mate, do your homework. So I think that's, you know, that the value of what you can understand and to have conversations where you're, you know, there is such thing as a stupid question nowadays, because the internet can tell you so much that don't ask me who the parent company is of my brand. Or don't ask me what other cars we make, or you know, whatever it might be, do your basic homework. Don't turn around to me say, this is so interesting. I didn't know anything about this until yesterday, you know, I haven't come here to talk to a bunch of interns. I've come to talk to you about your expertise and how you can help me improve what I am trying to do with my brand. So yeah, and there's all that there's all the little things that catering is always one which gets me which makes me laugh, you know, being presented wio platesth ginormous, crumbly croissants and no plates.  On a futon. And yeah, milky tea, I'm lactose intolerant, by the way, in a chipped mug, chipped kind of freebie mug. So yeah, they're just, you know, all of those sorts of things. It's just treated me as if I'm a guest in your home. So treat, treat me in the way that you would you would treat guests in your home. And it's that conversation, you know, we're here to talk about your business and how you can help us.   Jenny  Do you think it's got worse or better? That aspect of it? Sam  Oh, good question. I don't think it's changed enough. Actually, I don't think it's necessarily got worse, but I don't think it's got better. I think it's very easy and easy for agencies to go into pitch mode. And they, you know, deploy the same team, you always deploy approach it in the same way. And I've read lots of lots of books and lots of essays on how to break that cycle, and how to think about pitching differently, etc. and that it's worth digging those sorts of things out. But yeah, it. Unfortunately, the whole pitch process is still so mired in the same. Here's a brief, here's the long list. Here's the short list now that and what it doesn't let you do sufficiently is road test a relationship. And ultimately, that's what it's all about. And I think next time I'm looking for an agency, I'm really going to try hard to do it differently. I'm going to try and do some project based road testing, rather than the big all singing, all dancing, kind of, okay, you've got all the business based on two meetings, you know, it's like marrying somebody when you've been on two dates, isn't it? Jenny  Essentially, it is. Where do you see that? You know, what do you what would you be looking for during those kind of test projects? What kinds of behaviours and skills? Sam  I think, you know, as we've talked about it is that communication, it's about staying one step ahead. It's about being calm and professional, but taking as much crap away from my day as you can, you know, when it comes to that particular piece of work, and, and just really helping bring the whole piece together, you know,  none of us are working in isolation, working with other agencies, you know, and and helping me deliver my objective. That's ultimately what I'm employing you to do. So however, you can help do that is always going to be appreciated, I think. I think the other thing is, in whatever type of agency contract or relationship we have, that would be like regular reviews, those relationship audits are so important. And I think for them to work in the best possible way they need to be 360. So the agency can review the client as well as the client review the agency. And it's always done anonymously, you know, so, of course, you can normally work out who said what but that's beside the point. But I think it is really important because a good client should want their agency to improve and they should want their teams to improve. And if so, you can do that like twice a year or after a big campaign or whatever it might be and having a kind of structured, for each kind of production and account management , creative, you know, you have a few structured questions. And just it really just helps to kind of bring any issues out really understand where things went right where things went wrong, what can we do more, or what should we do less of, how should we change, and also has been a big issue or with have a wash up meeting, you know, I had one recently when I was at Anglian Water where there was an issue. And it is not about apportioning blame, it shouldn't ever be that no one should ever kind of worry about going, the biggest problem was that Dave screwed up. And it was like, Alright, Dave, let's kind of understand how that happened. You know, what, what was it that led to that decision? And you know, unpick it that it doesn't happen again, it's not about what, fire Dave, I don't want to see his ugly face ever again. You know, it isn't about that, if you're a good client, you should be much more empathetic to particularly when you are this, you are loading an awful lot of pressures on the agency when this particular campaign I'm talking about was geo dependent, location dependent, weather dependent it you know, there were so many variables in it, and across so many channels, inevitably, something was gonna fall over. So we were lucky, it was only one thing. But when it did, it had a bit of an impact. So you know, okay, one thing fell over what happened? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again, you know, I've never been the kind of manager that screams and shouts at my teams, I'm not going to do that to my agency either, I just don't see the point. Jenny  Do you think agencies ask for feedback enough? Sam  No, they don't. They're bit scared. They're a bit like, Oh, we might find out something we don't like I'm particularly in the pitch scenario. I think the other thing is even putting, like the likes of the AAR and the intermediaries to one side, since I've been running pitches, for however many 1000s of years, only one agency has ever phoned me directly to ask me why they didn't get a business. One. You know, which is mad really , I was quite happy to tell them. Jenny  Why do you think yeah, they you said that they're scared. Any other reason that you think that might be happening? Sam  I don't know. You know, when I worked with agencies as a pitch consultant, and you know, one of the things that is quite often said to me is, we're quite often the oh you came in really close second, and why is that? And my first question is, then what what what, what have you asked, the clients that have told you that, you know, what, have you started kind of compiling that client A said,  it was because of this, client B, said that, you know, if there are either a theme emerging here, or that something that we can start to kind of put together. And quite often they don't, I don't know whether they rely too much on the intermediaries or they think it's an imposition to phone the client, you know, but it's again, it's like, don't be scared about doing that, you know, this, we're just normal people, like you guys, just give us a buzz. And if we can't answer you, or don't want to answer you, we will tell you, but if we're happy to, then you've got nothing to lose. So it is just about trying to get as much kind of experience together. What you know, it's like, it's like the relationship audit, you know, after the pitch, if you didn't get it wash up. Why didn't you get it, be honest? Don't be afraid to say well, actually, it was because the MD just didn't stop talking. And maybe he shouldn't be in the pitch. Or maybe he should come in at the end, you know, manage the individuals and egos is the hardest thing. But if that's what's stopping you winning business, it's something you have to face up to.  Jenny  It's so true. I'm actually thinking about my early days in the agency world where we didn't get a pitch, and I know that the the MD didn't stop talking fully enough. And you can just sense that you think this isn't this seems really flat, you know, and of course, he didn't get it. But I think that's really good advice about giving, you know, asking for feedback productively.  What do you think about clients that before the pitch, they don't give the agency enough access to them? You know, a lot of agencies complain to me that they're going into pitch for a piece of business, but the clients you know, they get the brief, a maybe they're allowed a window of half an hour  with all the other agencies to asks a few questions. But what do you think about  client's being more open to agencies contacting them beforehand to get some more context? Sam  They absolutely have to. You know, bonkers. I can't imagine trying to, you know, if we go back to the getting married scenario, you're not going to marry somebody when you've only spoken for half an hour. So if you really want to have a proper collaborative relationship, you need to get to know each other. And what I always make sure that I do is build in at least two hour long follow ups with the shortlisted team. So they'll probably be one at brief stage it might be just a half hour call to do a QA and so you you schedule that and it's  individual it's never with all the agencies at once because that's not fair. And then for the ones that are shortlisted and then answering a brief or putting together, you know, some example creative, whatever we've asked them to do. Then there'll be another either face to face meeting or a call or, you know, currently a Zoom probably And how are you getting on? You know, is there anything you need to ask us now? Is there anything that's not working for you. And the other thing that I found in that process, almost inevitably, the agencies that you think at the beginning, are doing really badly, like in that interim stage, when you, when you have that kind of get together and think they haven't got it, they haven't cracked it. And another agency is doing really, really well, almost always, they will flip around by the time they come to present. And the agency that were doing badly wins the business and the agency that was doing brilliantly falls at the final hurdle. Don't know why it happens, but it almost always happens. So it's really important to kind of see and it helps you as well get to know them and see their thinking and how they're working through things and steer them back on course, because it's in nobody's interest if you get to pitch stage, and they've gone completely barking up the wrong tree. So you do need to make sure  and I think it goes back to my   thought of trying to run it differently next time. Because in the real world scenario, you wouldn't brief an agency and then go bye see you in six months, you know, three months or whatever, you would work with them on the campaign until you had something you're happy with. So why should the pitch scenario be running these very old fashioned kind of , can't possibly talk to each other during this process? Now, I realise it's time consuming. And that is the biggest thing about it. But it's a big investment. So you should be prepared to make the time and try and find and try and prioritise that time in your diary. Because if not, you're not going to get the best result. If you don't potentially. Jenny  I absolutely agree. I think it also shows commitment from the client to the agency, because many agencies just think, well, this is a huge beauty parade. There's probably at least five others, if not 10, 20. You know, there have been pitches where, you know, it's like throwing, you know, spaghetti at the wall and hoping something sticks, they seem to throw it out there to agencies, loads of different agencies. And I suppose from an agency's perspective, yes, many are good at qualifying those opportunities first. But quite frankly, if perhaps the financials aren't in the place where they need to be, they might take that opportunity, but then they go on to waste their time. And time is money, as you know, they know, unfortunately, that's the business model. Sam  Yeah, exactly. You don't want to waste time. So I think the other thing that's really important if the  clients don't have a beauty parade, you know, I've always been very, very certain that whoever is on that shortlist, we should be able to work with any of them. So there should be no like, Well, they've done a great job. But we, you know, we didn't like the MD becuase he didn't shut up, you know that there shouldn't be any of that, to have got to that final three, whatever, any of them should be able to win it. So I think it's not fair to have a beauty parade. Absolutely not. Jenny  No. And sometimes they think that they're making up the numbers, you know, and you find that out afterwards. But this, Sam, I'm just conscious of your time, this has been so rich with insight, and I'm sure loads of people coming away with some thoughts and ideas for how to do different things. And I would like to just ask you a couple more questions, if that's okay. Do you get approached from a new business perspective by agencies?  Sam  Yeah, I, certainly less than I used to. When I started my career  as an interim, I did more consultancy and agency pitch work. And it's kind of morphed into more interim marketing director work. But yes, I still do it. And I'm yeah, I get the occasional approach. But I think what would be really nice if it wasn't always the, we've got this pitch next week, and we haven't done anything about it. You know, so there's 11th hour things. So yeah, but certainly what, what I tend to do is, is help, I kind of call myself a surrogate client, because I help them think about the brief from the client's point of view. And I think one of the, the biggest tips I would give you is that the client doesn't always know what they want when they write that brief. So if you're slavishly answering it word for word, you're not necessarily bringing your best game to the table. And I think particularly as you know, as agencies, we were saying earlier on agencies are multi disciplinary now, and everyone can do everything, supposedly. So it's quite hard sometimes for the client to know what type of agency they need, or even what type of campaign activity they need to run, you know, it's just, I've just got this thing you know, that the old days of I need a media agency or I need an ad agency, are so long gone, that you you much like as I was saying, earlier on, about as an internal client, you need to come to the team going, Well, here's my problem, how can I solve it? That's why I personally really like the intermediaries because they can help you kind of sort the wheat from the chaff at that early stage. But all that said, It is about looking at the brief and thinking you know what I'm what I'm actually seeing here is the client wants this. They've expressed it in this way, but actually their challenge if I know enough about their business, and I've dug into it is this. So I do I have worked with agencies and there was one PR agency that was helping with it with a car pitch that would just went hell for leather on some fantastic stunt idea. It was like, that's a tactic, not strategy. They're looking for a strategy. No, no, no, this is what they want, this is what they want. And guess what happened, they didn't win the business because they hadn't expressed enough, you know, strategic knowledge of what the challenge was, they just focused everything on a creative idea. So I can definitely help them on fixing that way. Jenny  That's brilliant. And if they're an agency that's trying to reach out to a prospective client, any tips on how to do that in a way that is going to make them stand out?  Sam  Oh, that's a really hard question. I think, you know, it goes back to what we're saying, just help solve their problems for them don't kind of come to them, have you got any work? And I'm using kind of really stupid terms. Of course, no one will do this. But you know, I understand that this is a challenge in your sector. This is what we think we might be able to to help or this is what we've done for another brand in your sector and look at the results or have you thought you know, so it's come with a with a challenge and a solution, you know, and just try and it's about dialogue about making yourself useful. I think that's, that's the thing. It's hard to do because everyone's busy and, you know, marketing director, you know, as a marketing director, you're so aware of being cold, called, as well, you know, the Hi, just thought I'd get in touch to you know, so you do have a screening filter on networking, you know, all of those sorts of things. Jenny  And just final question, if you're, if you've got an agency that's working really well with you, and you love them, it's been going on for a while, and they've been performing really well and bringing you new ideas, new insights, etc. Have you ever been asked by an agency of that of that kind? for referrals? Like, can you refer me to other parts of the business? Or can you refer me to other.. Sam  It's really interesting to me, I don't think I ever have actually, I have done it. You know, I have said to other parts of the business all you know, you should work with this agency, and the example about the Mercedes roster got agencies working with other bits of business. I don't think anyone has ever explicitly said, Could you recommend me to someone, you know, if either inside or outside the business? So that's, that's a really good tip. I think do that. Jenny  Okay, so good. Because if someone had asked you would you have helped?  Sam  Yeah, I thought they were a good agency. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's all about helping each other out. So, yeah, I would have no qualms in recommending and I have, subsequently as a client, obviously, I've gone on to, from one business to another and said I've worked with that agency they're fab , I wonder if they could help us. So you know, I,  you keep hold of the good ones. Jenny  Customer lifetime value, love it. Listen, where can people get hold of you? And who would you ideally like to approach you? Who do you work with best? And where can they find you? Sam  You can find me on LinkedIn, Sam Bridger, or sambridger.com is my website. So you can get hold of me through that. And I think the clients that I really like to work with, and this has really been sort of amplified over the last year or so with everything that's been going on are those that have a good sense of social responsibility. I've worked with a lot of charities, I'm not just a charity client. Anglian Water's a really good example of a business that totally oriented itself around sustainability and environmental protection. And looking after vulnerable customers, though, you know  that meant a lot to me. So there wasn't sort of, as I like working with but also loved the hospitality sector, you know, worked in the hospitality sector quite successfully. I've worked with lots of different organisations. For me, it's just it's always about the challenges is what I always say it doesn't necessarily matter what the sector is it's like, you've got to meaty challenge, if the business is a bit stuck, or you know, your agency is a bit stuck. And you need to think about how you can pivot and do something different than yeah, I'm your woman. Jenny  Amazing. Honestly, Sam, you've provided so much value today. Thank you so much. I'm very grateful for Tina for introducing us. So thank you so much for coming, Sam  Pleasure. Thank you, Jenny.

Transcript: Jenny  So I'm really excited today to be speaking to Paul Kirkley. Paul is currently Client Services Director for the fabulous agency MadeBrave. And he has such a huge amount of experience in agency life, that I think this interview is going to be fantastically rich and full of insight and tips. So, Paul, I'm going to pass over to you really, if you could spend a couple of minutes just talking about your background, your experience in agency life, that'd be fantastic.  Paul  Thanks, Jenny. Hi, there. Well, I've had about 25 years plus in the in advertising industry. And I was, I was really, really lucky because I knew from an early young age, what I wanted to do, so I never really wanted to do anything other than working in advertising in some form or other. And I was lucky enough to start at Ogilvy as a grad. And I spent about 8-9 years at Ogilvy working on numerous clients, but being really, really well trained, because the the Ogilvy at the time was a really big sort of training agency. And you had experience within all the different environments of the different departments. So you're lucky enough to get all that sort of training, I was lucky enough to get all that training from an early start. And after I'd worked at Ogilvy for a while before I joined a startup it had actually already started up, but it was quite small. It was about 30 people. And that was really, really interesting, because it was a move from the big agency into a small agency, and you sort of had to move from working between departments to being really all one department. And so you again, you learned a ton more stuff of how to really get stuff done in a in an agency. And I then spent the bulk of my career at JWT, after five years, I left that agency, the startup and joined JWT and that was fantastic. I've always been in account management, I've always loved the sort of creativity involved in the whole industry. And once I was at JWT, I was head of account management, I was head of new business for a number of years. And I worked across all the different clients that JWT had. So local domestic clients, regional clients, global clients, and for the last sort of five or six years there I was a global business director. It was fantastic experience with you know, hugely talented people that that, frankly, selfishly I never stopped learning from. Jenny  And you're very modest actually your account management team, correct me if I'm wrong, was 120 people. Is that right? So that is some feat to look after so many, Paul  I think it was the biggest account management team in London, possibly in the country. So yeah, it was a lot of people. But again, you know, they were they were brilliant, hugely talented, all really, really interested in brands and really interested in sort of how to get the best work for their clients. So it was a joy. Jenny  So if you're one of these lucky people that knew what they wanted to do at an early stage in their career, and then presumably just pursued your path, Ogilvy fantastic training ground? What do you think that training gave to you that perhaps other account managers in different agencies don't get? Paul  Well, I think it gives you a massive understanding of what motivates different people in different parts of an agency. So if you apply yourself in each of the different departments properly and sort of thoroughly throw yourself into it, and think about it through their, the different people in those departments eyes, you get a very different perspective of what actually motivates a strategist, or what motivates a creative person, or even what motivates an account person. And I think being understanding of that and respectful of that is something that you can only you can only learn if you've been exposed to it in a in that sort of way. And it really it changed how I sort of operate in an agency because you suddenly realise that all the different departments are so valuable that you , the more you can understand about what makes their lives easier and better. And frankly, what they're ultimately sort of inspired by means you can set everything up as the account person to make their lives more favourable, easier, better, but for their work.   Jenny  What did you learn if you can remember this while back about how to work with clients? I mean, that was a really useful exercise and i think i'm sure other agency, maybe leaders are thinking, yeah, maybe we need to invest some time in the team so that they can sit in the places of different people within the agency. What did you learn at that stage about the client and working well with the client?    I think one of the things you learn is getting it's the benefit of being in a big agency is you have a myriad of quite often quite big clients. So you're operating with, again, hugely talented marketeers who really understand the broader picture of, of what your what you can obviously offer and what they are actually after. And I think the benefits of it is, is that you just are exposed to so many different types of people, that you get just tonnes more experience. And you can perhaps in in unfortunately, in a smaller agency, it's a different kind of experience. But you're you're witnessing and being exposed to so many different problems, that the different clients have that after a certain amount of time, you feel you just have an innate confidence that builds because you're, you faced so many different problems, at least once before. And they're quite often the skills that you learn from one client or one particular brand is transferable to a completely different category, or completely different client. And I think that's, that's probably the biggest thing that you, you learn from that sort of mix of different types of clients. Jenny  And I suppose it gives you exposure to the business perspective. Because if a client has one particular challenge, and you deal with so many challenges from different clients, then you start to get a picture of the types of business problems that you are fixing for the for the clients, right? Paul  Absolutely, yeah, there's, there's so many different problems that arise, but very quickly, you start connecting the dots. And if you if you're lucky enough to work across a variety of different clients, and even not at the same time, you just have to be able to remember those situations you faced, you faced and hopefully help them through. And then you kind of bank it. And then you can use that bank of information, bank of experience, we like to apply to anyone else who comes in the future. So quite often, you know, you after a number of years of that kind of experience, you start to almost work out that individual business problems are not that individual. There are actually things that you can learn from other clients, other brands, other campaigns, other situations that you know, people have been in. Jenny  I suppose it also arms you with the types of questions that you want to be starting to ask the clients at the briefing stage, the more that you are exposed to their different business challenges and communication challenges and problems, right. Paul  Yeah, I think one of the things you have to be wary of if you have been through a lot of those experiences is not presuppose or prejudge those situations. So it's a very good point, I think, often the best briefings come out of the best questioning. So the ability to be someone that's open to listening, you know, everyone always talks about agencies that they never really listen. And I was, again, taught read that early age that you know, you have to really be a good listener when you're especially when you're an account person, because it's that's listening between the lines of what someone is saying and those kinds of meetings, is where you really unearth the truth, the truths if you like, and so I think it's that ability to not prejudge, or presuppose you know, the answer or jump too quickly to the answer. Is it again, a very sort of, it's an important learning to have Jenny  I 100%. agree with you, Paul. Funnily enough, it's one of the key aspects of my training programme is how to ask questions. And we actually have a framework that can be adapted for different scenarios. And I just had an instance with a client of mine who, who had started to ask questions differently to her client. And a client actually said to her, wow I started, I was going to brief you on one project, but now we are talking about three different projects, because she'd been so good at asking questions. So I think it's kind of underrated, isn't it? Somehow, questions and listening Paul  It's completely underrated. And, you know, I think I think what what most people need, not just the not just clients, but I think it's what most people, whenever you meet people for the first time, or even when you're not being curious and inquisitive and asking and being interested, is often the thing that most endears people to other people. So you know, if you can do that in your work life as well, you, you often open up and numerous other doors to other situations, because they're going to be interested in if you're interested. And if you're genuinely interested, you know, even even better. Jenny  Absolutely agree. Fantastic. Okay, so that we've talked a little bit about, you know, the early years and I want this podcasts to be fuel for thought or food for thought, for people listening, who perhaps aspire to be a client services director. So you really have reached, you know, level, you know, managing 120 people in that CSD role, then going beyond to be, you know, global business director, etc. But tell me, what do you think makes a superb Client Services Director?   Paul  Well I think the role of account management firstly is is to, is to create the right environment for the best world class works be developed on behalf of your clients and your agency. So creating the right environment is the biggest sort of role for anyone in account management. And ultimately, what that means is, it's about becoming, in my opinion, a trusted advisor. So be someone that your clients view as someone they can trust, and someone whose advice they can trust, it's, it's the opposite of being a sort of transactional order taker. So it's very easy in account management to, you know, just take orders and go back and deliver what's been asked for by the client. But that means you're only ever reliant on the last project. Whereas if you can build this kind of trusted adviser status with your clients, and not, it's not a sort of something you hide behind, it's something you have to actually do, you have to be someone that that is giving advice that they can trust. So in a way, what that means is internally, you need to be able to lead and direct and encourage teams to do everything possible to create that environment. And externally with clients, it means it involves inspiring those clients to entrust you to develop that world class work. So  it's a tricky area to get into. But if you're genuinely interested in your clients problems, and your clients business, and you genuinely can offer them some advice that's trustworthy, then you're more than 50% of the way there because that that is, in my humble opinion, what what makes the great account people and the great Client Services directors. Jenny  Brilliant answer, and I love that view. If someone's listening to this, they might be thinking, Well, what could I possibly offer them advice on? If you know, they know their business better than I do? Like, talk me through maybe some examples of how you can provide advice to the client?    I think it's about the first thing is it's really about trying to make them and their brands successful. So there's no agency that successful when their clients aren't successful. So the first thing to think about is what could we do to make our clients and their brands more successful. And that could be just having a point of view on the current situation with their brands, it could be looking at what their competitors are doing. It could be just sharing some information about successful ideas that you've seen or work that you've seen. It's also I think about, about being, you know, massively ahead of the client curve as much as you can. So being aware of what's coming down the track for them. So again, being very close to their business. And, and thinking about what is the next thing that's coming down the track or the next three things that are coming down the track? And how could if I was in their shoes, how would I prepare for that? How would I What would I ask an agency to do? What would I want them to come and come to and to do? And then specifically in the agency, I think it's it's really about inspiring a team or the team to constantly outperform, to constantly think about what is not okay, don't settle for what's okay. Because anyone can just deliver, you know, what's what's been asked for? It's always about pushing for what is the next world class result or next world class answer. Jenny  I love that. Always thinking ahead, always looking at future trends, things that are coming down the line that are going to be relevant, because we forget sometimes don't we, the client goes deep in their business, but they don't go wide. Like we go wide with different industries. And interestingly, I did another interview with another account manager from a different industry, funnily enough, and he was saying how much he brings. He looks for trends happening in other industries, completely different industries that you can borrow, and adapt. So that's fantastic advice for anyone that's aspiring to be really good at account management. So leading this team, a CSD. How do you spend your time and what do you think are the skills you need to really be good at the role of leading the account management team?  I think that i think some of the things that you can do. I'm sorry, could you repeat a question, Jenny?   Jenny  I've got this terrible habit of asking about three questions in one question. So it's nothing to do with you for the, I'm really looking for the skills that someone needs to be a good CSD, because I'm sure there'll be people listening to this, maybe you are an account managers level, account director level, but really want to go higher and advance their career, what are the skills they should be maybe looking to acquire, in order to be very effective in the role? Paul  I think you have to be quite organised. And I think you need to be able to simplify things. So I think it's very hard when you're dealing with clients who have often got, you know, lots and lots of plates spinning off and don't have a lot of time, they also may be paying the agency quite well. And they don't, they don't really want to spend more time than they need to, you know, talking to the agency about their problems, they want the agency to go and solve them. So I think the ability to think, very, very quickly and single mindedly about how to get to a solution is a really important part of the role, then I think sort of just being fascinated by what your clients businesses is, I can't reiterate how important I think that is, I think it's the most interesting part of the job. I mean, I was always taught to learn everything you can about your clients business, so that if they were unable to go back to work for a  bit, you could step in and take their role. Now, that's, you know, obviously hugely arrogant, but it was a sort of nice, humble horizon two aim for it was like, you know, try and try to think of yourself, what are the things that your clients are worried about, that you could help them with, so that so much so that even if they weren't able to be in work that day, you could step in and probably, you know, help them that day when they weren't there? I think also banking as much as you can of what works. So find out what works. in marketing, find out the work that works, finding out the work that you admire, and your clients admire. And ask yourself as honestly, as you can, why do you think that work works? Why? Why is it really working? What is it? Why is it engaging with people? Why is it changing people's behaviour? Why is it changing people's perspectives? What is it about that idea, or that approach that changes how people view their lives? And the more you can sort of learn about those, the more you can have an interesting sort of bank of information like that bank of ideas, if you like, the more you can apply those across your different clients. And again, you know, having that when you when you see people that are fantastically rich with insight, it's, it's usually because they've got that knowledge, they've just banked as much knowledge as they possibly can. And they've got a very honest view of it. And they've been probably honest with themselves about how, how successful that thinking is, and why it's worked that they have been able to apply it to other other areas. Jenny  That's such good advice, actually. Keeping abreast of what's happening in the marketplace, what what work is out there, what does your client like, you know, what works? Why did it work? How did it change behaviours? Great tips there. And in terms of your role as CSD, and your previous role as CSDhow much what was your role in client meetings? For example, you know, you have a team, they're going to be the sort of delivering the work, but how do you input? Where do you input? Where do you think you bring the most value? Paul  Yeah, good question. I think I think one of the temptations is to is to sort of suffocate people in those sorts of meetings. And, and the best, I think the best CSDs do the opposite of that. So they're much more empowering. So they they will help and mentor and coach people going into the meetings, and even during the meetings will not chair the meeting, but they'll try to sort of ensure that the meeting flows well,  the agendas adhere to any additional thinking that might not have been covered by the team could be brought in by the CSP, just to sort of embellish that thinking. But I think it's more about you know, setting the team up for success and  allowing them to gain from your experience because the, the you know, ultimately you want that team to succeed. So the role of the CSD is not to take over the meeting or shine or run the meeting. Quite the opposite. It's more for them to my opinion, so then to empower and inspire the other team, the rest of the team to success. Jenny  I'm glad you said that, because I've had a lot of account managers say to me that they sit in the client meeting. And unfortunately, they're, you know, more senior peer takes over. And therefore, they end up not saying anything. And the client has the impression that you're there, you know, you shouldn't even be in the meeting, let alone have an opinion or a view. So I agree with you. It's good to orchestrate. So that you are, like you said, shining the light on the team? And how much juice does the CSD role get involved in agency operations, new business, other factors? Other than kind of, except developing and growing existing clients? Paul  Yeah, well, it's it varies. I think it varies in different agencies. And my experiences is quite a lot in those two areas. So I think if you're running a reasonably big department, and then the agencies quite rightly expecting you to have a point of view on how the agency is operating, and how the work is coming through the agency, how it's coming into the agency, you know, is it all those things that would fit with operations? And then I think on new business, I think, again, you know,  why wouldn't you put someone who's got lots of experience of different clients, and, you know, working on your business, into that into that sort of world as well. So, in all my experience on running as a CSD, I've had a lot of, you know, exposure to operations, a lot of exposure to new business. And I think, you know, quite rightly, because I think if you've had that sort of been lucky, like, I have to have that exposure to all that work, and all those different situations, it's, it's very, very helpful to have someone in the room who's, you know, just been in a similar position and face those sorts of challenges. Jenny  Brilliant. And could you maybe show us the other side? What do you think some of the challenges are in being a CSD? Paul  Well, I think I think the, one of the biggest challenges is probably when something goes wrong. So you end up being quite rightly, you end up being the person that is accountable for something going wrong within the agency. And again, quite understandably, if something goes wrong, ultimately, is it's good to have someone that is accountable for it, and the buck stops with them. But I think that you know that anything that when it does go that wrong, I think the way to view them is that the way to view those situations is there's opportunities to fix them. So, again, I I learned from someone quite an early stage where they said there's there's never a problem there's always an opportunity. And, and in fact, they used to say if they weren't, if there weren't any problems, we wouldn't have jobs, which is a really nice way to think about it really sort of inspire me to think about how, how you how your role with clients is actually really perceived. And in fact, if something goes horribly wrong, as long as you fix it quickly, and fix it well, I've actually found it to be a very, very helpful thing. And people actually remember the agency that fixed the problem for them. They, they respect the agency that and the and the team of people that acknowledged it was a mistake, were honest about it, they didn't hide it, they they were completely open about it and transparent about it. And then, you know, authentically changed it, changed how they were, you know, and resolve the problem. And that's always for me has always been seen as a big positive by clients.   Jenny  How would you describe your leadership style, Paul, because I know, you know, you, you have a very calm, experienced kind of approach, you know, that that's very reassuring for people that you are in charge of? How important do you think that is? For the team, you're, you know, I'd love you to spend a couple of minutes just talking about your leadership style and what works. Paul  Yeah, I think I'm quite that's a very good question. I, I think I'm quite a sort of, as you say, I'm quite calm person, I doesn't really faze me. So I don't get fazed by big problems at work or stress at work. In fact, I thrive on it and I like it. And I think that, again, it sort of comes with having been in lots of situations, not the same situations before but similar situations or face similar problems, whereas you can normally see a way through it to an art to and to an answer that's going to be a successful answer. And I think my style is to try and help people to see the same answer that I can see without telling them that that's the answer because they in that way they learn as they go along. So it's a much more of a mentoring style and coaching style. And in some respects, it's, you know, it's I think it's quite a strong leadership style, because you're constantly encouraging people to go the extra mile to do the extra step to just think beyond what's being asked. And of course, when they work it out eventually for themselves that that is the answer. They'll never forget it. And so they then repeat it. So I think that that sort of style has always worked for me, and I've never been a sort of cheerleader leadership style, it just isn't me. I'm much more, I think, considered and more sort of calm than that. And I think that, probably, because that's how I reacted to my previous bosses. I prefer that kind of a, of a boss and that lead, and I respond to that, and it, you know, inspires me. And so I've basically adapted that style. And, you know, it's been very helpful to me. Jenny  I hope there are agency leaders out there listening to this, because I agree with you, 100%, I think it's so much more, we've used the word empowering, but you make your team so much more independent, don't you? If you're you're training them to think in that way. And the only way they're going to do that, rather than you being the hero, that you become the guide. So I think it's a fantastic management style. And what what changes? I'm interested because you've been in the industry for so long, what changes have you seen throughout your time in terms of how agencies are operating? Paul  Yeah, I think I think there's been quite a split now. So quite polarisation is possibly a little bit to do with COVID. Actually, but I think for the last sort of 10 years, there's been a split between short termism and more sort of, you know, kind of sales very sales focused, and what I was saying earlier about being a trusted advisor, and I think that's that is starting to polarise the business a little bit. And it's, I think, partly driven by, you know, that the pressure on agencies to become more profitable, if you like, in a, you know, what's a, you know, a tougher world now has forced some of the agencies into that kind of world of short term sales, rather than, you know, being a more long term partner and having a, you know, more sort of longer term view with your clients. And I think the other big changes, I mean, everyone will say this is is the understanding is the, the requirement for the whole agency, but particularly account management to understand digital, the digital revolution. So I think that, you know, in the past, I think some agencies were able to get by with not everyone embracing that. But I think that it's utterly impossible now, if you're not, you need to be interested in it, you need to be curious about it, you need to understand it, you need to genuinely embrace it. And you see the people that haven't, and then they're not, you know, they're not really working in the industry anymore, because they just haven't chosen, they haven't chosen to embrace it. Jenny  Well, what would you say? If anyone's listening thinking, oh, gosh, that's me, I'm not moving fast enough with the times do you feel that there's any sources of, you know, any people that you follow, or any sources of information you, you listen to or read, to keep you ahead of what's happening, what's changing so quickly. Paul  So I'm lucky enough to have children of the age that they are sort of innately intuitively digital, so source is to talk to them, they're, they're so knowledgeable. But it's mainly other people. So I've found in the agencies without words, that that's the best source for people to, to you know, to take to to learn from, I mean, just by hanging around with those people, you just by osmosis gained so much knowledge and you know, once you connect with them, they're sharing as much as as much as you need to know they're sharing everything you mean, you don't need to be so, you know, did so involved in it. But you do need to know enough to be able to advise clients and be and frankly be trusted by clients on it. So I yeah, I mean, I do follow a lot of people on social in this sort of area, but it's there's none of that, you know, there's no one particular person I draw out but I think just having a hunger for it and being interested in it and and enjoying it is is probably the best advice. Jenny  I agree because I don't work in an agency full time I still am plugged into the agency strategists and they share a lot of their learnings and thoughts. And, and I've learned so much. I mean, I think a lot of the agency strategists look to different industries for what's changing and evolving, like gaming and sports and music in different industries, and they get their influence from there. And yeah, I think that's that's a good point. And what, what, if any challenges do you think have particularly been presented to agencies around working remotely? Paul  Well, I think I think the biggest challenge is the, it is harder to build and maintain relationships. So you know, and also, I think the ability to see, body language on these calls is very, very difficult. If you're working with a client, you know it and it's not just for the agency to see whether the client likes what you're talking about, or what you're sharing, or whatever, it's the other way around as well is that everyone misses I think that kind of body language. And if you're not connecting regularly, and you're only connecting virtually through video calls, then I think that's disproportionately affecting some of the situations because of COVID. I think the ways to sort of overcome it. I don't think there's a rocket science thing for this, I think, I think you need to have, you know, regular calls with your clients. But not just when you need a call. So I think it's worth sort of establishing them. But most people are open to having a conversation or a quick coffee or beer in the evening, or whatever it is just it's just a nice way to make it as normal as you can, to normalise it as it was prior to COVID. I think regular sharing of anything you find of interest, any articles, you see any links you see, I think, you know, there's it's not again, rocket science, but I think that is something that people enjoy. I think they respect it, they like the fact that you're thinking about their business and, you know, to earlier points, that's what you should be doing all the time, you should be constantly thinking about how can I make my clients life easier? How can I make them more successful. And then I think, you know, just the small thing is, I think when you're on video calls, I think it's quite easy to miss what the action points are as a result, or what the summary of that particular video call is, because they're a slightly different experience for both parties. And I think it's, you know, a lot of a lot of agencies, I think, have sort of lost the, you know, the, the contact report, or the call report of those meetings, has sort of fallen a bit by the wayside. And I still think those are very important documents, because they're not political documents, they're just summaries of meetings, which help, you know, as people go from one call to the next to the next to the next, they just help everyone to work out what they need to do as a result of that call. And I think it just is a, again, it's another thing that you can follow up with to keep the contact going. Jenny  Yeah, keeping everything on board. Absolutely keeping everything on track and keeping it moving forward. And, Paul, you've got an awful lot of experience with global brands working on global accounts. What do you think if there is an agency listening, thinking, I want to be working more with global level accounts, rather than local? Do you have any kind of, can you explain to us, what are the key differences in terms of how the agency operates? Paul  Well, I think you can only really work properly with global accounts, if you have a global outlook. So I think you have to be someone that is, you know, is  interested in what's going on in the world. So most of the global clients that I've ever worked with are, some of them are really, really genuinely global citizens, you know, they've lived all over the world, they you almost don't know what nationality they are, because they're so global. And they are very interested in what's happening in the world, all over the world. And in fact, they can look at any part of the world and see their company or their brands challenges in that particular environment. So I think the ability to think beyond just the domestic world that you're in, as an agency person, and look for inspiration around the world, in different markets, different countries, different brands, different companies in those countries and markets is it's a bit like just being very curious about your clients business, butexploded across the world. And I think I think it's, you know, it's just really about immersing yourself in that and genuinely looking and but you have to be genuinely interested in that. You have to want to do that. You can't just go, I wish we could be more global, you have to go, I'm interested in the challenges that this particular brand is facing in this country. I wonder how we could help them in this country, and connecting the two and growing and growing from there it is, it is a different sort of mindset. That doesn't come from just having an office in another country, you have to have people on the team who have that global perspective and interest. And, it's, frankly, a sort of cultural interest in what what different different differences and similarities there are, across the world. Jenny  There's a theme coming out of this isn't there, I mean, for in terms of behaviours and skills that you need to get far in an account management career is really continuing to have that interest, that thirst for knowledge, that curiosity, as you say, to really put yourself in the client's shoes, and to really immerse yourself in their world so that you can become more valuable. So thank you for continuing with that theme. Can you give us any examples of where you as a client services director has really added value to either your agency or the client or both?   Paul  Well, I think you know, resolving conflicts within the agency, I think, is an important part of the role. So inevitably, when you've got lots and lots of bright people with very strong opinions, who think they're right, and both parties might well be right. But in the end, you often need a sort of mediation person who can bring, you know, the team back together again, accept the fact in fact, even applaud the fact that there might be a know, difference of opinion. But you know, often great creative ideas come out of, you know, very strong differences of opinion. And you kind of need to encourage that, yet treat it on a very professional basis, rather than a personal basis. So I think the Client Services Director, in those situations, you know, a big part of the role is to be able to galvanise the team, bring everyone back into the pointing in the same direction, accept the fact that nothing is personal. It's not a personal point of view, it's just a business decision or business disagreement. And, you know, and get everyone back back together and pointed in the same in the right direction, and almost agree to disagree in those situations. Jenny  Something just occurred to me while you were talking there, because you also experienced and if you are leading a team, and someone's listening to this as a CSD already, and they want to maybe get more inroads within their client companies to have C suite level conversations, do you have any kind of tips that you could share from your experience of doing so? Paul  Yeah, again, I think, as you said, you know, a lot of them all roads tend to lead to sort of being as interested as you can, in your clients business. And the more interested you are, the more likely they are to share the issues that they're facing. They will ask, they'll, you know, open up to more situations where they think you might be able to help. And ultimately, the more the further up the sort of ladder, you can get to being a trusted adviser, you almost get to the point where you can ask, you know, I'd love to be moving up into a sort of, you know, C suite, or I'd love to meet so and so who's got this issue that you've talked about? Could you introduce me to them, and the closer that bond with yourself and the clients, the more likely they are to say, you know, what, I think, you know, A should meet B, because they've got an interesting perspective on something that we didn't realise they had a perspective on. So the more the more you can, you know, listen, and ask questions about your clients business, I mean, informed questions, you obviously are trying to get, you know, a proper perspective, a professional perspective. But the more you asked that, the more likely, in my experience, you are to sort of be introduced to a wider audience within, of clients within an organisation. Jenny  It comes down to having that valuable point of view, doesn't it? And if you're bringing external perspective, external trends, things that are happening that the client needs to be aware of, then they may spend some time with you. But if you're not kind of part of that conversation, and I call it the begging bowl approach, you know, like, can I have five minutes with no, if you want five minutes with me, you have to bring something of value, because they're busy people. And how do you think agencies just in the future are gonna continue to evolve? And how can we prepare for that? Paul  I think, I think agencies will continue to be under sort of financial pressure And I think that they will increasingly move into as many deliverables, the many areas have different sort of skill sets within the agencies. And I think that's probably potentially quite dangerous area for agencies to go into, because I feel that a lot of the sort of deliverable natures of what agencies are doing now is, is being offshored, it's being sort of pushed down the cost of it or being pushed down. Whereas the, for me the more upstream strategic thinking, for an agency is where the future for agencies lies. So I think the ability to come up with will help clients come up with powerful strategies for success, but also to be able to help them deliver what needs to be done in order to achieve that is a is a nice to have. But I think that the upstream thinking is where agencies will increasingly successful agencies will increasingly be more successful. Jenny  Yeah, that's, that's good advice. I mean, I follow I don't know if you've heard of Tim Williams from ignition Consulting Group. He always talks about pricing models. And, as does Blair Ends, but you know, how we price I think, probably needs a revamp, and I know, many agencies are doing that successfully moving to more value based pricing, etc. But I think I think you're probably right. I mean, we are, you know, a lot of the work that we do is commoditized, unless you're bringing something different unless you're adding the value that we've been discussing. So that's, that's good perspective. Do you have any tips or advice for anyone who is aspiring to be a CSD in their career? Any, any words of wisdom? Paul  Well, I think, you know, I will, again, reiterate that I'd be as curious as you possibly can about your clients. And I'd be as helpful as I can, as you can to all your team members around you. So the more you've got people within the agency saying, you know, he or she is a fantastic asset to our team, they really, really bring the team together, they identify the vision that we should be heading after. They're very, very, you know, truthful, they act with integrity, they never talk behind people's backs, they they eradicate the politics that inevitably exists in some of these places. And the ending, if the same is being said by clients, then I think you know, you, you're well on your way. And then I think just you know, it's important just to enjoy it. No one likes people who look like they're in, in pain, doing their job, they really want to be surrounded by people that are enjoying it. And the more the more you surround yourself with people that are enjoying it, the better  the job is, you know, I mean, it's a pivotal role in an agency. And I think if you're in the world of account management, I can't understand I could never understand why someone wouldn't want to be even more pivotal as the CSD and enjoy it. Because it's, it's a, you know, no day is the same. It's  a fantastically exciting role, where you just have a different challenge every day all day. Jenny  it really comes across that you enjoy your job pool, which is a joy to see. And I absolutely love your insight into sort of modelling the behaviour that you want to see in your team. Because if you're all stressed out, no time, a little bit aggressive, you know, you start blaming others, that just sets the tone for the whole agency, doesn't it? Yeah, and I believe I mean, I've worked like yourself since the early 90s in agencies, and I think leadership really starts at the top. So the behaviours that you have are going to filter through the agency. So enjoying your work, you know, embracing challenge, embracing change, and setting the tone, I think is that's a fabulous tip to finish on actually. Do you have anything else? Anything that I have haven't asked you that I probably should have done? Paul  I don't think so. That was a thorough set of questions. We've covered everything.   Jenny  Well, saying thank you so much, Paul. And it's yeah, it's been a pleasure to chat to you. Thank you so much for spending the time with me today. Paul  Thank you, Jenny. Thanks a lot.

 Jenny  So today's episode, I've got something a little bit different. I'm really thrilled to say that James Aldrich has joined me. And James actually works in account management, but in a completely different industry. And I thought how exciting it would be to have someone from a completely different industry to give us a perspective on account management, to see what we can learn from other industries. So James Aldrich, he works in the software industry, and he looks after accounts, in the telco space. So James, would you mind spending a few minutes just talking about your role? And how you actually got into account management? James  Yeah, thanks, Jenny. So I'm in a major account director, I've been selling software and being an account manager for 21 years now. And I wanted to be in sales. And of course, you know, from business development into account management when, when you bring new clients on board. And so I've had a mix between hunting and farming the last 21 years. Jenny  And tell me, you know, the value of account management because I asked the same question to everyone. But I would love to hear it from your perspective, having been both in the business development side and the account management side, what do you think the value of the role of account management brings to both your company and also to your clients? James  Well, I think that I don't really, honestly see a huge amount of difference between business development and account management, I think that part of what you're doing is looking after a client is to extend your network anyway, which is very similar in the way that you do with your account. And how you establish the relationship between your company and yourself. And the the client as well is, is a kind of a reflection of within the pre sales process, and how it should be within the post sales process as well. So the value I bring to my clients A is a knowledge of expertise within the platform that we support and sell for service, also within the industry, but also as a conduit into other organisations as well. A lot of my clients want to learn what other companies are doing sometimes within their own industry and outside of it as well and, and give an idea on best practice and, and opportunities that they could leverage through this kind of combined network as well. So kind of the value that I bring to my companies for that is a single point of contact, I have access to some of the best people in my industry, that work for my company, that support me, I'm very lucky in that base as well. And they are always a professional reflection upon the company. But more importantly on me as an individual, my integrity to that organisation, because ultimately, in business development people buy from people. And through account management, that trust is sort of elongated through the lifecycle of a client. Jenny  You said something really interesting to me, before we had before we had this interview, which was your values, and you said, it's really important for me to align my personal values with the values of the company I'm working for? Can you finish off that story? Because I thought it was so, such a powerful thing to say. And you started off by saying that, but it was the most important thing for you. Why is that good?  Yeah, it is, I think, through your career, the one thing that follows you is a reflection of your behaviour through each of your clients, and the value we bring is your network. So everybody that works with me and for me on the support of my clients, I say that these are your clients, what is your contacts, you know, and how you define yourself is a reflection on the values of you in an individual, if there's a misalignment between my company values and how we behave. And me personally, that becomes an integrity issue. And it won't just sit with that company, it sits with the individual as well. So yeah, values are 70% of the reason why I work for a particular organisation are the values match between what I believe is important. And of course, you align them to the client as well. And that's why business development and account management sre not that different, because because it's a continuation of it. So the company feels that they can work with individuals. But primarily, they believe the platform that we support and sell is the best in the market and meets the requirements. And they're also going to be able to follow that through because in any project that I do, occasionally there are issues that come up. And you need, the client needs to feel as though we're approachable and we're contactable and they need to feel that we have their sustainability and success at heart. And that is really at the heart of the core values we say customer first in everything we do. We also talk about white gloves experience, you know, making sure that every point of contact within my organisation and how we engage and interact has to be a certain level of dedication, quality and it has to reflect the values of that company. Primarily authenticity for me is the most important thing you know, we talk about being your true self. You can't fake it. It's you can't fake passion. You can't fake enthusiasm. You're either enthusiastic for what you're supporting and what you're selling or you're enthusiastic to work with the client you're working with, and you're enthusiastic in the role you've got. And again, making sure that the core of that is, in your values is the most important thing for me personally. And the reason why I choose in my career who I work for, Jenny  There's a couple of things that I want to pull out there, which were really interesting for me, the first thing you said, which I think is gonna resonate with a lot of people listening is I also bring the value of my network. Just the first part of the question really is, how proactive were you and have you been in networking? You know, and how do you network?  Okay, yeah, honestly, everything. So my, before I joined my current company, I work for a company called Anaplan. And before that was Oracle, and for that SAP, so I work for big organisations that will already have an established brand within a particular organisation. And when you join a smaller company, and you're starting to reach out, you realise, in part that the value you had previously as being part of a big company, like Oracle doesn't exist anymore, so you really need to re establish your customer brand. And that is through the network. So there's a lot of pressure on people at the moment, especially in during the day, how do you get access? How do you reach out to people, because you can't call up an office cold calling is completely unacceptable. In my view, if you're calling someone's personal mobile that on LinkedIn, you can get access to people's mobiles, or companies that will gather people's personal mobile, but for me, it doesn't reflect the ethics of how I manage it. So I don't I do it through referrals. I do it through referrals with a partner that we work with the GSIs, or do it through other companies that I've worked with, or, or people that I know already. So these days, everybody knows everything, and everybody can find everything out. So and I think 80% of the sale is done before you even engage with the client. So how you represent your network, and how you support your network is probably the most important thing in my role, which, if I know that I'm introducing people that will add value to the clients that I'm working with. And also will support the credibility that I'm working hard to establish within that as well, then it becomes kind of a quid pro quo, we'll support each other through that journey. And the partners that I work with like Deloitte, Accenture, EY etc, they will help introduce me into different organisations because they know that I reflect a particular level of expertise within my field, which is a value to the clients that they're engaging with as well. And then again, it's completely aligned to what is the objectives of our companies collectively. And ultimately, I'm going to keep saying and sustainability of the clients because at the moment, it's not about how, what are you going to plan for what comes next is about the speed at which you react to it. So if I can help become a conduit into my organisations to support that. And people are losing their roles as well, they're losing their jobs as well. So part of what I'm doing as well as is engaging them with other companies that are looking for people because one one industry come down, another goes up. And you know, technology is being pretty, weathering exceptionally well. So if we can help support those individuals through that journey, it becomes a much longer career plan for myself and for them as well. Jenny  With referrals, do you tend to organically sort of receive referrals? Or do you actually actively ask for referrals, where it benefits you?   James  Yeah, every every, there's one of the things I always find at the end of every meeting is is somebody else, this will be a value to somebody else, that it'd be useful to somebody else that I could speak to as well. Nine times out of 10 or so why don't I just keep it to me that becomes quite personal. With what I do and what we do. However, there's it quite often resonates you can get, you can sort of grow that network as well. And I do that as well, with the partners we work with where we know they're engaged in different clients, you know, who can you recommend that we go speak to, can I reference you kind of reference our conversation and then try and gain access that way you got to be a lot smarter these days on how you grow it's a lot slower a hell of a lot slower to work. But I was lucky that because of the company I'm currently with and I built it up from nothing that I'm well established in that area now. And as one of my clients will tell me, there's nothing that's been thrown at us we haven't managed to deliver upon. And when you meet that expectation in any conversation, you have and any form of communication you have whether or not you put a LinkedIn post, you're doing a direct mail, you know, on any form of communication or credit or webinar, it's my time is more valuable now and my home life is more disrupted. Ensure that it's very specific to that individual. I don't think the shotgun effect that you know, we used to do back in the early 2000s it really works anymore, I think. I think it's gonna be much more tailored and much more specific and a lot gentler as well. A lot softer touch. This is of interest, if it is great. If not, is there somebody else I can, do you think it will work for? Jenny  You see, that's, I mean, it makes total sense. And it's, it feels like a no brainer when you say it, but actually, I teach people how to ask for referrals. Because, believe it or not, one of the things people struggle with is actually how to ask. And particularly if you're an account management role, and you're asking your client for a referral, you know, you've obviously got a long standing relationship with them. And you don't want to damage that relationship. So there's a real fear sometimes with, you know, appearing too pushy, you know, saying it in the wrong way, getting a rejection, any tips or advice or words of wisdom for anyone that's maybe in that position?  James  I think part of the, your intuition should tell you, you know, I always say go eager on everything. If you don't feel it the right time, then don't do it. And it's a pretty simple thing to do. But, but I think it's quite a British thing to do, America's much more accepting of sales. And the acceptance of the role in one of these is quite an embarrassing thing, we believe to be involved with that. But I think as soon as you accept that there should be a level of empathy. And if you've been respectful and appreciative of a person's time, they should also understand that you're doing a role and doing your job as well. And never be afraid just to say, you know, just somebody else I could talk to, and or can you put me in contact with so and so? And are you happy for me to use your name when I do it? No, okay, they'll give me their email address or whatever. Because the way that you've reflected yourself in that first conversation should set the bar of how you reflect yourself in the next conversation. Because if you're asking somebody to refer you, and you've gone in, poorly, you've gone in aggressively or too pushy, then they're not going to refer you full stop, you know, if you really want to wind up somebody in sales, then you get a call from a headhunter that's very aggressive. And you should pass the name of one of your friends or somebody you don't like and say, yeah, go get them in a conversation. But I think that and that actually, for me, for two things have really transformed everything. One is in my industry SaaS, Software as a Service, it is easier to cancel a subscription and replace something because technology is, is so agile these days, whereas when I worked at Oracle, you know, the investment level, and how complicated it was to put in place, and you're stuck. So the renewal becomes more important. And that's why if you get a win, and you get somebody that buys into it, and you make them personally successful, and you appreciate that there is something personal for them in it, then it becomes a no brainer for them to make that referral and be part of that journey as well. And I know I'm sort of jumping between that first point of contact, you know, finding the contact, reaching out getting the project, but exactly the same step throughout the process, which is whether or not business development, account management, pre/ post sales, you know, the quality and clarity of communication is what's important. And know your subject, know the industry, know the client, and reflect yourself with a with a level of credibility as well. Jenny  Tell me about those renewal conversations you have, like you said, that's a really important point. And particularly if you're, you know, what the average value of one of your accounts is approximately how much? James  I'm not really allowed to say I'm afraid, but it is publicly available information but our earnings coming out soon. So I'm not gonna say anything about that. But let's just say, yeah, it's between high six and seven figures, it's between what I worked with as well, and but it sort of becomes it to me, the value that's realised off the back of it. So we I make a very conscious effort to work with a client and get my team to work with them to help them at certain points understand what is the value of an investment, because again, it can be lost, you invested this much, what was your, you know, not just your ROI, but what's your hard and soft touch value of it. So at the renewal point, if you're thinking, well, we're spending seven figures, but we're making 10 figures back easily, or, you know, or 10, plus, you know, spending a million you get a hundred million back, that's a pretty good level of investment. And, and we can demonstrate those kind of things. So the renewal point, it shouldn't be a point of, we want it cheaper, we want the same but for cheaper, it should be very much a point of all we getting the value we expected out of the back of it, if we've done our job right, then the renewal becomes a no brainer, but but I always say up front of my first ever meeting, the renewal is more important than the land. We don't get the land right, then we won't get the renewal and for the sustainability of my company, as a shareholder in my company, as well, that the renewal become more important. It's their long term goal. And if you get that land, then you get the opportunity to meet expectation, you get the opportunity to grow or expand through that journey, then the renewal is even bigger than when it started but but with a focus on the value to the client. Because if again, if your investment levels, a client there and the return you're getting is there, based on whatever business case you're measuring against, then yeah, it's a no brainer. Oh, by the way, if you repeat that same principle across every part of your business, then your investment level doesn't accelerate as quick as that. But the savings, the incremental value to accelerate far greater as well. And often companies like in, especially in the software industry, they don't take the time to work with a client to help them understand that. Somebody who originally invested in it leaves, somebody else comes in, we've got this stuff, we don't really understand what benefit we're getting from that. But we've always been using it. And it's such an important aspect of what we do. Because when you go on from what we used to sell, which was on premises technology, let's make a significant investment, and spend a year implementing or two years implementing it and we're stuck. Now you can make a reasonable investment. And you can get in place within a month or two. And and you get value within the fiscal year. And we need to just continually measure ourselves against a client's expectation of value and I've said values a lot and value. But yeah, my core values and value monetary or intangible or tangible benefits the client as well. Jenny  That's a really good point. I've got an idea for the podcast title now. Okay. So I was thinking, actually what you said, a lot of this comes down to the metrics that you calculate at the beginning, isn't it? Like, what is the value that we're expecting to provide to this client based on the investment they're making, and what we've seen as the expected returns, and then it's about making sure that it that is visible throughout the relationship, you know, until you get to the point of renewal, because then you can prove what you've achieved for the clients. So and I think the reason I'm saying that is because sometimes in the creative industry, it's less easy to, to have those hard metrics at the beginning, or, you know, it's overlooked. So I think what you're saying is to put you in a good position, you need to reflect back at those renewal moments to say, look how much we've achieved look at what we've done so far, so that it the renewal becomes a decision that they make, very easily.   James  Through the journey, just some of the products I do, they're looking for hard benefits, but a lot of the products also get intangible or soft benefits off the back of it, and they should never be ignored. I mean, in my view of productivity and efficiency gains, what can you do, what better decisions you have you made after using what we're doing? How do you better support your customer. And ultimately, within the industry, I support Intel telco, it's all about the customer journey. So the same way that I try and ensure that every touchpoint I have with my client is a certain pedigree, the best we can or honesty to say honesty is probably better, because there's things we can do and things we can't do. And it's better that the client knows that as early as possible, as well, in the same way that they try and do the same thing as well for their customers. But if you've got 32 million or 54 million customers, that's a lot to manage and support that way, but they try and reflect every project they try and do is how does it impact the customer? Does it give us one version of the customer, so that there may not be an instantly recognisable, tangible benefit to a hard metric against that, you know, a lot of that's realised after you've done it. And actually is one thing, I do see that the Americans do very, very well in their products, they'll, they'll, if they got 10 projects, they'll kick off 10 projects, two of them won't work, but the other 8 will be great. A lot of the again, the cultural difference over here is they're much more much more conservative with what we're going to do. If it already works, why why fix it? And you'll say, well, it doesn't need fixing, it needs improving. And there's something else that COVID has really transformed as well, it's given company, the opportunity now to think about where they're going to be in three years, and focus very much on what the outcome is going to be everything's about the outcome, how are we going to be able to put ourselves in a position to come out of this quickly. And not just within what I do, but everything around supply chain and supporting networks as well, are built around this, as well and intelligent, you know, individuals that I work with that are really thinking, well, I already understand what we do within our industry. Tell me what that industry is doing. What can we learn from that industry? And the thing about software companies are they're kind of a conduit between different industries, you know, we're like a central point that we work with oil and gas, work with travel and transpor,t work with the banks, you know, and and there's not that many other industries that do cover such a wide spectrum of knowledge base as well. And, again, that's the network value is, you know, would you be interested in learning what such and such does, you know, and yeah, can you put me in contact with the CFO of HSBC or something and and that's really what we're trying to add value for when I just ended up becoming a conduit. Mainly the most important thing for me is that is a it's a, it's a well used quote, but Steve Jobs said about having people that are better than him working for him. And it's the same thing I try and do with in my team as well. I understand that there are things that they do a hell of a lot better than me in different areas. And then just making sure they're able to do it. And I know we talked about this previously. And that's a sense of fun, it can be really tough, when you are under a lot of pressure to deliver something within a particular timeframe. And you've done everything you can you try to control as much as you can, and you get to the point there's nothing else you can control it is up to the client there. And then it could be out of their control as well. And you have to accept that. But through that whole through the whole journey, the way you motivate internally is important as to how you motivate externally as well. And that's the sense of passion, enthusiasm. And I go back to values. And my team know that because I'm speak so passionately about the values they're collected, they know that no decision I'm going to make is going to be counterproductive to the client. Because they don't have the targets that I have. They're interested purely in the client, My interest is my customer or my company as well, I made sure we meet our number. And, you know, I try my best to reflect that. And you know, I've been very lucky, very successful in doing so. But I always say that, especially now, we may need to make decisions in the short term that are in the client's interest more than they're in our interest. So we need to balance the scales a little bit more in their favour, make them sustainable, and we'll see the benefit in the long term. Jenny  I'd like to focus in on that on the targets that you set by your company. And also perhaps this could be tied into how you grow an account. You know, so you've got a really good client, it's huge. You've got a team working on it. Presumably those touch points throughout the relationship are what do they do like quarterly business reviews or kind of strategic meetings that you're having on an ongoing basis reflecting on the metrics on progress? Or do you get invited to client planning meetings? Or C suite conversations? James  Yeah, all of the above pretty much. Yeah. So it depends basically, where they are within a cycle. So they're seasonal, in part that they're are more important periods than others. It depends on whether or not , sorry to use the word again, that whether or not we add value in joining that meeting, and doing so we have a role and a purpose to play. If we don't don't do it, there's, you know, things that be more important to do. I'm dead against meetings for the sake of meetings, even more now that I'm at home, and you can see your day via slot, a 30 minute meetings with no lunch break or anything, it becomes impossible and managing hours worked longer. So what we try and do is really reflect, you know, get an agenda really tight on what we're doing and why we're doing it. But the other other, we call them 'art of the possible' sessions that we do quite often with C suite, which is, again, you know, what could else we'd be doing, let's use our imagination to come up with something else we could be doing. And then we pull in the relevant people from our external companies that have an expertise within a particular field to support that. The cadence is important internally as well. Because I don't feel the need to be on every call that I have, that my company has with a client, I just made sure they're all aligned to the same strategy within there as well. And I trust the people that manage that and support that as well. So but that can, that can be reflected throughout the year. But a lot of what we do is we get pulled into, we want to do this, can Anaplan do it? And you know, the thing about what I, what we sell into the service we have in the platform that was built is that yeah, it pretty much can do anything. And it's pretty unique in the marketplace, which is why we've been very successful. But ultimately it comes, we drive it right back to education, make sure the client knows how the expectation what they're going to deliver. And that's when we set up the project plan, in effect of, you know, when are we going to do the sprints, when we're going to have the reviews, you know, the scrum reviews and the different parts throughout the process. And as it's going to get busier at that point when we agree the user stories and then deliver against them, okay, we'll get more meetings and manage that follow my role is to make sure that my team are not pulled into too many meetings, that are not reflective of what they should be doing as well. And it's just everything. There's no set structure to anything, it all depends on whether or not as well, the client wants to have that conversation. So although, you know, sometimes we become a bit reactive, which is absolutely fine. And we should be more reactive at this point as well. We made the recommendation, can we have a conversation? You don't know what we're gonna be talking about, then don't do the meeting. Yeah. And that's why a lot of people in my company want to talk to my clients, they want to, oh, can we be introducing such and such and talking about? What do you want to talk about? No, there's no value and having that conversation with that individual, I can give you that information. So let's step away from that. And, and part of that's me protecting because of course, all of my colleagues want oh could your client go and talk to this one? Because we really want them to do that project. Okay, and I get that a lot, you know, 10 times a week or something. No, that's not in the my clients interested do so. But, you know, on the back of it and one of my big clients has done a number of events in the last couple of weeks. We've delivered their project we've delivered against expectation and now they're talking about it. And again, it's that's the longer goal, which is the reference out the back of it. And it's that's the mass market reference goes on YouTube goes on LinkedIn, you know, goes on The Economist, all that kind of stuff now and then anybody can see that on and guess what, then we start getting the inbounds coming through off the back of that kinds of thing, we want to find out what they did we want to learn more how I did it. And then we go back in that journey of cadence control. Sorry if I've gone on a bit there. Jenny  No, no, not at all. I'm taking notes as you're speaking, because obviously, this is very relatable for an account manager that might be listening that's working in the creative industry. And what you've said, which is really interesting, that I think we can all learn from is how do you raise your own value for the client, and what you've said, You've said a few things, really getting under their skin and understanding what their goals are, and being quite protective of their kind of time, and who gets exposure. Also, your knowledge of other industries, you know, that must be very valuable for them when they want a perspective on how other people do it if they've got a particular challenge or problem. Also your expertise, because  you've built up your expertise in one particular area, which is obviously very valuable. And then the value of your network, who do you know, who can you bring to the table? Who can you introduce us to, that could also, you know, you said I'm bringing in other experts, because I can see that they they can lend some additional value. So I think, you know, everything that you're saying here is, is very relatable for our industry as well. And there's perhaps sparks some ideas for other people to think about what they could be doing differently, to make themselves more valuable. James  Honestly, I don't really see any, if we base it in sales, I don't see any difference in in any industry or anything you're doing. I think you know, whether or not you're selling a car, or you're selling medicine, or you're selling phones or anything like that, the first thing is understand what is the value to the person you're selling to. So it's not feature function, chuck it out, I'm really big on that, I mean, when I go and buy a Telly or DVD player, and the sales guy just started telling me a whole lot of stuff that I had no interest in, I one particular thing I wanted in this telly. And I ended up just walking around doing it myself online. And that's the big difference of note that he added no value. So I didn't follow through the process. And by the way in onboarding, as well, you get to a point where you're happy to pay a premium, if you know you're going to get something good off the end of it and doing that. And that's the value. So imagine as a baseline cost for anything you're going to buy. But so the bigger reason you're buying from that particular organisation is the people. And yeah, that's all to do with the value where the regardless of what you're selling, and what you're supporting your clients with. It's the same principle. The specifics are the product. The specifics are who you're selling to, but the nature of how you behave yourself. And that's the, that's the authenticity bit that there are good people in this industry in account management, they're are not so good ones. Yeah, people can be very successful. through no fault of their own, I say, because they're very lucky, their timing, they're on point, but they sort of get found out and you get your culture, right, and your work ethic, right, and you do the right behaviours, and then ultimately, you'll be successful. And the people around you should support you in doing so as well. Jenny  Absolutely, because the end result actually is a little bit of a commodity. And for many clients, it's about the experience of working with you as well, like, Is it a pain in the ass to get to the end result, you know, you might be getting me the same business outcome, but I want to kind of make sure that that journey isn't like pulling teeth. And going back to my previous question about growing an account. You know, obviously, there are different ways of growing an account. But tell me your view on best practice when it comes to thinking, Okay, I've got a target. And I've got a really good client, we've been working for a while together, they're really happy with where we've got to what we're doing. Where do you see the growth opportunities. James  Get it right first time. So no matter what deliver on whatever you promised, you deliver on your promise you earned the right to do something else, if you don't deliver on your promise, and you don't have the right to something else. When we started we call it expand before you land because of the complexities in onboarding new clients. And because we started sharing the vision of what we were doing across an organisation when you worked with a big company, you can do that, you know, there are there are multiple entities and multiple different people. But in what I do, they all have pretty much the same core challenges. And the quicker you solve those challenges, the quicker they get value. So you start thinking what I should be doing this, I should be telling them about this, you know, that should be going to the next person because it's in their interest. And then you start realising through the whole thing. That if I go if I my company, I do a project and I save my company 10 million quid or something. It's good for my career, as well. It's in my personal interest to do this. Then I put up my CV and then I accelerate my career. And then you start realising that you this is the bit you can't fake, which is if you really believe in what you're doing, then the next thing is, is kind of like your duty to try and help the people that you're working with to be more successful. And they will make their company more successful. In doing so their careers will be more successful. Some of the people I've worked with initially, and now moved on to much bigger, better things off the back of it, which is great, because that's my ultimate goal. Because if they've helped me become successful, and I've helped them to become successful, if I recommended you a project and it fails, then it goes completely the other way. And that's, so that's part of  the truth and on itself you have and the project you're doing. And you already know that if you know what you're doing. So how do you expand from what you're doing? Get it right, have the confidence for the people that you work with is how you it's gonna work. And again, that's what I do. I have a chap that works with me, he's incredibly skilled, incredibly knowledgeable, he keeps me in check, which is, I say to him, will this work. And if he says, yes, then we know it work. And he's got that level of credibility, if it does, and we'll deliver against it. And if I see any point of failure through that process, then I've got to be on it quick. And that's the internal cadence that we manage as well, and you get it right, and then you expand successfully. And then you'll see that renewals bigger, which means that it is a much bigger system greater risk. No, it shouldn't be a greater risk, you've done the right things, the client sees the value, and they will continue. And they want to do more Oh, by the way, that person you sold to has now gone to that other company, they've now recommended us as well. If you look at the growth rate of my my company, in the last 10 years, we're went from nothing in a shed in York, was where the technology platform was written by a chap that I've known for 20 years. And a guy that I work with, when I first ever started an ex New Zealand SAS captain who, who became, you know, started this company, again, we're now listed on the US stock exchange, I forget our latest valuation, but it must be well over eight, 9 billion as well. So I was employee number 243. In six years, we're now over 2002 and a half 3000 and the growth, the hyper growth that we go through. And of course, when you grow, you're more successful, the risks are even greater, because you could lose focus. Because you could lose the reason why you became successful in the first place. The reason became successful first place is because you met the client's expectations. And they recommended you. And they recommended you internally and they recommend you externally. And they brought you with them on their career. And when they started with another company, they brought you with them and sometimes the company, but when I see they come to me, they reach out to me, James, I'm now at this place, can you come and have a conversation? Yeah, love to now I don't look after that client, quite often, they may somebody else successful. But as we all should be shareholders in our companies, either materially or, you know, the fact that we're employed by them as well, it's our duty to then support that growth continually as well. Jenny  That's a very, very inspiring story. I mean, what you've also said is that you're continually solving challenges for clients coming up with solutions, making sure that they work, and then presenting them. So it sounds like you're continually adding value. The other thing I want to ask you is given that you're given the your company's grown so fast, and so phenomenally well, how do you make sure during that hyper growth, that you do make sure that you get the right people on in your team, that they're all following the same lead, as you've just explained about making sure the ethics and values are aligned? I mean, how do you make sure that that happens? You referred to it earlier on actually, with internal, you're doing internal training to make sure that each level is.. James  Yeah, enablement, we call it and you know that again, and we do it with a buddy system as well, too, we buddy people up with other people, so they can learn from them as well. But I think either either it's very difficult, because the culture of the company you think will be is set really up for us in the US that's where the values are. And quite often sales has a very different culture from the rest of the company. So you rely on your management structure to reflect that as well. And manage downwards to support that. So all I can do is protect my little franchise, my little ecosystem, and the communication between my company and the clients that I've introduced into my company. And that makes a big difference it becomes quite personal when you do that. So the evolution of account management, from business development to account management, so it's different when you inherit something because it's an opportunity to be better than the person before, but it's also an opportunity to be not as good as the person before with me is that thing well, James has been with us Six years, he knows us, it'd become more of a challenge when somebody else comes in because, you know, they'll lose a little bit of the feeling, they can just pick up the phones and know instantly what's going on. So, I can only do that. And, you know, there will always be points where somebody will come in. And they will have their own view because of how they worked previously and a different company, and it will build change. I talked earlier about the external brand that's valuable to me, my previous company will buy the internal brand. And some people that come from very big companies coming with their internal, you got to build your internal brand. Focus on your internal brand, that's where you manage outwards, not managing downwards, I try and make sure that I'm supporting downwards, because if they're doing what they should be doing, then it's a good reflection on me as well. And that's that, fundamentally, of how I see any level of account management. But I've got people who say they work for me, they work with me, and they very much do, because they have different reporting lines as well. But culturally, as a company grows, you're not going to be able to do it. Unfortunately, you know, as your best will in the world to get the right people in that have the same values as you. And you'll see that people have been there for a long time will move on, and they will keep searching for what they have previously. And they'll find it because you know, that's why they're successful. And companies will become too big to fail as well. But as long as I'm here longer than doing this, then I'll continue to try and reflect the values that I bought into when I joined my company with the clients that I work with. And it seems to be working, which is great. And that's the important thing for me. And for the rest of the company. You know, again, I'm very lucky that a lot of people that work with me and around me have been with on the journey for a long time as well. We try and make people more vested in the company wide success through through shares, and stock as well get them reflective on that, I think is a nice to have, you know, I'm very much focused on what my target is, and, and the customer success, everything else is a nice to have. And then you just sort of hope for the best to be hoest with you there's no way to manage it at my level. If I was running the company, I could manage it. But that guy's in the US and you know, luckily, in the company I work with, I get a very strong sense of passion and value enthusiasm from that individual. So I have a huge amount of respect from him, he is walk on his way to be earn the respect, not expect the respect from his job title, but earn the respect. And I'm very lucky to spend a lot of time with him. And I have direct access to him to help support me as well to be successful. And I hope that he also and people also in our both the leadership team, see the sense of enjoyment that the people that work with me get from working on these accounts. And it was hard to start with, you know, when you when you start with nothing's happening. And you know, you, you calling everybody and everyone said no interested. But then it works, are you aware that this guy has managed to do that, you know, X, Y and Z? Oh, that's interesting. Tell me more about it. And I'll make you successful with that as well. And quite often through your career, you will not find companies that have products to sell, which are as good as some. I'm very lucky with that one, our goal at the moment is not to be the best at what we done. And, and you know, and again, it all came back to meet expectations that match the client's goals and values and continually display them and we call it customer first. As long as we show customer first and then I'll still be here. Jenny  I think that's nice to have, you know, a mantra or a saying that everyone, you know, can James  I'm probably an idealist Jenny, I'm probably completely delusional and an idealist. Jenny  Not at all? No. Do you know what it's it kind of what it says to me is that you're happy doing what you're doing. And I think with all of the years of experience experience I've had working with different account managers, it really comes down to that it comes down to culture, you said it starts from the top and it spreads down. So if someone at the top has that genuine, you know, authentic, passion, energy, and, you know, really wants everyone to succeed and sets people up for success, it really does reflect down throughout the organisation. I think what happens negatively is when you don't have the right leadership in place, because that very, very quickly spreads like wildfire. And that's where you get cultures that, you know, play the blame game and, and it's just destructive. So I think everything that you said is really, really key really this, you know, culture. the buddy system was a great tip as well, I think, particularly while we're all working remotely where we don't have that physical interaction with with each other. How do you make sure that the younger more so that the new people coming through are picking up those values? Are there any other tips, particularly around you know, the situation with how we're working remotely? Is there anything that you could share that might be valuable for agencies that are working remotely that in terms of making sure the account management team are performing at the highest level possible? James  That's a good question actually. Because the way we're working now, I know I've referenced the US a few times, but the way we're working is how the US works. It's how a lot of Central Europe works as well where physically you can't be in the same room, we sort of blessed in the UK, the fact that you can pretty much travel anywhere within a day easily to get to meet.. And the old view of gotta shake someone's hand, they're looking in the eye, no one makes eye contact anymore. This way, we're all looking looking at ourselves, and we're looking away from the camera, that becomes very difficult, I think increases the value on written communication and clarity and thinking, what would you want to receive? And how would you want to read it? Because I get a lot of, my junk mail box has gone through the roof, with material I'm receiving as well, what a waste of someone's time to do that. And what is the best way they can reach out to me, and sometimes it's been a little bit more creative. So if you're in the creative industry, you know how you do that first, every communication has to be reflective of your product, and what you're selling. So it has to be high quality has to be very tailored and very customised for those individuals as well. I think I read somewhere that 98% of cold emails are failing this year. So I my general advice is be more creative in how you find somebody and set up a first conversation, keep them short, keep them to the point. No-one's looking for a buddy, no one's looking for a drinking partner at the moment, that kind of stuff. And that's not a relationship. That's the 90s view. And there are a lot of salespeople that still have a very 90s view of it. And again, you know I worked with people at Penguin Random House a few years back, and you know, they still have a sales team that love to go out for whiskey and do that kind of stuff, you know that but that's a very different way of working, might need to edit that bit out, actually, Jenny? I think that I think what you're always thinking of is, you know, if I'm going to be in a conversation with somebody going to be trying to define the relationship, then every single point of communication, whether or not you're using LinkedIn, which I still think it's incredibly, incredibly valuable tool, but it's become a bit more of a social media tool, which has become a real issue for me. So I don't do InMails, I you know, if I reach out, try and connect to somebody, it's because I know somebody else. And you know, and and, and I've established my external brand off the back of that. Which means that, you know, I can engage with somebody within my industry, and help support them. So I look at my technology partnerships, I look at my my global systems integrated partnerships, as well as we work with and how we can support them and think, can I get you to help support me in what I'm doing as well? I mean, I don't know about the creative industry about how what that supportive structure is.But really, the first point should be in every company we don't do this enough, is to go around the people in your own team, who do you know, where are you looking for? Who can I talk to? That's the easiest one, you know, the next one is understanding people's careers I call it career mapping, which is where they've been before, where they're going, you know, how can I find out about them? And do they know, so So, and you start putting that seven degrees together. And then ultimately, everybody knows everyone, and it all comes down to that thing. Everybody knows everyone, everybody knows everything. Everybody knows when you're not reflecting who you should be, your behaviour is not conductive to proper business. And we get rid of people pretty quick. Don't be one of those people, be one of the people, that means that I want to reach out to you or want to help you. And finally, the only other thing I said that helped me through my whole career, Never be afraid. And the first thing you say is can you help me? I need your help. As soon as you say that people start listening, if you put in an email, I'll owe you one, I wonder if you'll give me a hand? And I need your help? Can you help me do that? It takes somebody less than 10 seconds to respond. So yeah, go and talk to that person. And then you go, so Never be afraid to make that may then ask because you know what they're doing in the US and the US are about a year ahead of us. Because they take chances because they go ahead for projects. And and then what we normally say is however the US is doing, we will be there 12 months later, and it happens, it always happens. But we need to encourage people to make changes quicker. And regarding the way of working on getting everyone settled into I think everyone used to it when the schools go back, I think people are quite happy not to not to have the choice to get back into the office. And certainly my clients are saying that no more than 30% of workforce will be in the office any one time. So it will change it. You know, when you go into the city, you'll be sitting with somebody and they want to make their way into have that meeting, you got to think well, what am I doing? Why am I doing this meeting? Is it a value? If I'm not doing it, don't worry about it, send them a little birthday card or something Happy birthday, but everything you do is very much I'm having this meeting. This is a value to you. And then I'm going to ask something that's valuable to me. Jenny  I think face to face is going to come as a bit of a premium, isn't it moving forward? There's a few things that you said and I'm glad that you brought up LinkedIn and your personal brand because I don't think I see enough creative agency account managers on LinkedIn in an either engaging with their current clients online if their clients are active. But also just sharing things that they're doing, updating their profile, so it looks more creative and more engaging. I think that's a really easy fix, and it doesn't cost you know, doesn't take very much time. And also not to mention being creative in how they reach out to people, I think you made a really good point about the emails or 98% of emails falling flat. Lucy Snell I interviewed her on the podcast, and she is she works for the creative industry. And she's very, very good at helping agencies prospect for new business. And what she was saying she was saying similar thing about emails and cold emails, and how, you know, rather than send a cold email, send a personalised video message that looks as if you put some effort in and looks as if you've really done your research and you've worked out who you're talking to, and why what you're saying is going to be valuable. So that was the point I was gonna make.  James  My only other response to that is  my email server will immediately spam that out? With a video attachment? LinkedIn might be ok, I've never sent a video on LinkedIn.   Jenny  This is the new messaging function that you'd have to get. This has been amazing. I'm just very conscious of your time. James, I, have you got any, perhaps parting words of wisdom or tips for someone who's listening to this thinking? I really want to get into account management. You know, what do you think it's important for me to do or know. James  I think, well, everything that I do, it works for me may not work for anybody else. But I think the thing I've always really impressed upon is that it's continually learning so and learning, you can make sort of make a choice from a whole load of stuff that you pick up from, don't just focus within your own industry, or whatever your own selling focus on everything. Because the founding principles are exactly the same. What works for somebody may not work for you don't do it, don't be told you need to do something, because it's a way of working. And there are a lot of sales methodologies to do, this is the important thing to slice up. And the best thing about doing all those sales training I've been on, is I take elements of them, that will work for me. And then I try and apply them as best I can, because they helped me they have value to what I'm doing. And it helps get over time management's that really difficult thing to manage as well. So I use these things to complement. And ultimately, in helping myself get organised, it means that I can be quicker to react to what the clients will require that particular time. So anybody who wants to get into account management, if I want to do that I want you to be if you're looking back at how I've been a film director, or guitarist in a band, so you know, anyone that says they're passionate about doing this, they're lying. They're passionate about Star Wars, they're passionate about football, they're, you know, they're passionate, they enjoy doing what they do. This role has enabled me to fulfil what I wanted outside of work. It so I work to live. And, and you know what, and luckily, I enjoy meeting new people. I enjoy meeting people for the first time and I enjoy learning about what they're doing. I found it credibly fascinating learning about what companies do. So if you want to learn not only about how to sell and how to support customers, about what companies do incredible tidbits about from my perspective about how companies report customer details, about where we going in technology, I do, what the future is going to be as well. I'm very lucky that what I do has helped me enable that interest and passion and enthusiasm of mine. And I did a history degree. So my goal was originally to bring the handwritten work back into technology sales, I failed miserably and they told me I would do that. The team at Pareto told me, I would fail miserably when I was 21 years old doing that. I don't think I ever I've ever written anything by hand. But my principles, well, I wanted to bring something a bit more personal to her. And I think that if you want to get into it, where you enjoy those aspects of it, of something new every day of something, you know, it's hard. It's it's hard, there's a hell of a lot of legwork to get there. But when you've managed to get there, you can transform everything. And again, Jenny, you know, what's going around me at the moment. So if I can support my family of the back of it, there's nothing more important than that. Jenny  Brilliant, that's a lovely note to finish on. Thank you so much, James. I really appreciate it. You provided so much value, so many tips. And I'm going to pull out some of these key learnings for us to take away to the creative industry. So thank you so much for joining me. James  And the best thing about working from home is I can just stress like this and get away with it. So no one cares anymore. Jenny  No, that's brilliant. Thank you so much, James.

Transcript:So today's episode is a solo episode. And I want to talk to you about presenting new ideas to your clients with behavioural science in mind. Now, what I'm going to be talking about is the idea that when you present new ideas to a client, that for them represents a change in what they're doing already, it's useful for us to put ourselves in the shoes of the client. So why is that important? Well, our clients are often working for companies. So they are measured on their performance and the decisions that they make. So if we are presenting an idea, which might seem a bit of a bold idea, so maybe it's a new campaign concept, or perhaps a new content marketing strategy, or even a new channel that we're proposing, like doing some kind of app, this for the client represents a change. And it's therefore useful to understand the psychology of making a decision to change so that we can present our ideas accordingly. Now, the background to this is twofold. One, I am really studying for writing a book, and I'm doing lots of research. And I've got quite deep into behavioural economics, which I'm loving. And secondly, I'm reading some research that came out in December 2020. So behavioural economics is the study of psychology, if you're not familiar with it, as it relates to how we make economic decisions, and they use experiments to develop theories about how we make those decisions. And for many of you listening, you'll be very familiar with Rory Sutherland, who is the vice chairman of Ogilvy, and is probably the most well known person to have popularised this field of study in the advertising industry. I'm also, as I said, reading some research that came out in December 2020, conducted by a company called Corporate Visions, and it was provided in a book called The Expansion Sale by Eric Peterson and Tim Riesterer, and basically a range of biases have been identified in behavioural science and economics as a result of the way people think and feel. And one of those biases that I want to talk about today is called status quo bias. And no, it's not the band, if anyone's that old, they remember like me, the very popular band, but it means that people prefer essentially things to stay the same, even if staying the same isn't the best decision. So if we are thinking about our clients, and we're presenting new ideas to the client, that might mean that they need to make a change of what they're doing currently. So it's useful to address these different points. So a simple example, if you shop around for car insurance, for example, you'll probably get a better deal but not everybody shops around, which would be the rational thing to do. So why does that happen? According to some research, and the research psychologist, Christopher Anderson, in his paper, The Psychology of Doing Nothing, there are four main causes of status quo bias. The first one is called 'preference stability'. And this essentially means that people naturally dislike uncertainty. So a previous decision they made becomes their preference. And if someone tries to challenge that decision, by bringing them some new information to the contrary, they want to quickly resolve that insecurity and uncertainty to default to their original preference. Second thing about status quo bias is anticipated regret and blame. So people think, what if it goes wrong? Will they regret it? And will they be blamed. And if you think about our clients for a moment, their career success could be riding on this big decision they make to either go with an idea that you present or not, or their colleagues might ridicule them or point the finger. So you can see why making that decision to change could be affected by this element of status quo bias, the anticipated regret and blame. The third thing is the perceived cost of change. So people naturally think that if you're presenting an idea to them, that that's going to be costly. And if they stay the same and do nothing, it's not going to cost them anything. And we're going to go through these and see how you can overcome each one. The fourth one is selection difficulty. And what that means is that we usually are presented with an overwhelming amount of information to make a decision. And the decision making part of the brain is just simple. And it needs a clear contrast between what you're doing now, and what that change promises to do. So that element also needs to be addressed when you're thinking about presenting new ideas to the client. So for our existing clients, there are a number of things that we need to make sure that we do during that presentation of this new idea to allay their fears and to make them feel comfortable about making the decision to change. And similarly, if we are prospecting for new business and talking to completely new potential clients, we want to be disrupting their status quo to challenge what they're currently doing. And maybe we are challenging what they're doing with a current agency. So we have to disrupt their thinking. So it has two consequences, the status quo bias. Because for our existing clients, we are their status quo bias, we are their choice of agency.  So let's go back to how we present an idea to a client that's already a client of ours so that we are not disrupting their status quo of decision to stay with us. But we are disrupting the status quo with what they are doing in their marketing capacity. So let's think about those four things. Again, the first one was preference stability, people don't like to make change, because uncertainty is uncomfortable. So what we can do during our presentation of a new idea is to first of all reinforce why they chose us by showing them the results that they've got from us so far, and some progress on the goals that they are making as a result of the work they're currently doing with us. And that should allay their preference to believe that just confirms their preference stability, for choosing us, but then we need to destabilise slightly what they're currently doing in their, in their marketing activities to consider making a change to think about our new idea. So we need to destabilise their their current thinking but without throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And the idea is so different, that they might think, oh, we might need to get a few more agencies around to help us make that decision. So we need to present evolving trends that will be affecting our clients and what they're already doing to meet their current goals. And by doing those two things, we are anchoring the client in their decision to choose us.  The second thing is anticipated regret and blame. So if we think that the client is going to regret making the decision to change, we need to allay their fears early in our presentation. So we can provide evidence of success through the work that we've done with other clients. So we can show them case studies of similar clients who have made a decision to change to do a project with us. And we can show case studies of it being successful.  And then the third element was perceived cost of change. And as we said, we as human beings, we think that if we make a change, it's going to cost us money. But the cost of doing nothing can sometimes be more of a loss to us, because we might be losing out on an opportunity. So we need to, during our presentation, show the cost that's been invested so far, to create the momentum we've already created with the work that we're doing so far, but also highlight the potential loss of not making that change. And I'm going to give you an example in a minute so that the theory kind of makes makes sense.    And then fourth element was the selection difficulty. So how can we show our clients or simplify the client's decision to make this change? Well, simply we can show them what the pathway looks like if they continue to not take any action to make the change or to capitalise on this opportunity that we're presenting to them with this new idea. And similarly, what happens on the pathway, if they do make the change, what's the upside, so really being clear about what the selection could look like either way. And just to put an example around this, if we go back to the beginning of preference stability, let's suppose that we are a content marketing agency, and one of our clients has done ad hoc projects with us so far, but we want to propose to that client that they do a whole content marketing strategy with us and a key messaging workshop so that we can really understand the bigger picture and bring all of those elements together. We need to, in our presentation, counteract four of those elements of status quo bias to persuade the client, why this might be a good idea for them.  So the first element as we remember is preference stability. The presentation has to start by reflecting on all of the ad hoc work that we've done so far in our capacity as copywriters because they've done ad hoc projects with us so we can show what projects we've successfully completed to date, perhaps the metrics that we've been able to achieve maybe it's increased reach or percentage engagement from the work that we've done, or maybe we've been driving attendance to an event through the pieces, the copywriting pieces that we've been doing so though that is delaying their fears reinforcing their choice of us.  Secondly, if we want to help them understand that change is needed, then we can present the facts of these evolving trends. So we could say that according to the Content Marketing Institute, for example, 86% of other marketers who revised their content marketing strategy, expect the adjustments to stay in effect for the foreseeable future, meaning that the majority of other marketers are actually revising their content marketing strategy, and therefore, it would be a good idea for us to do the same. Similarly, you can throw some statistics out there in terms of the new platforms that people are using. And again, citing the report, you could say 66% of B2B marketers, like you said that LinkedIn was the best social platform for generating best overall results. And as we know, from the work that we've done with you, so far, LinkedIn hasn't been a key focus for us. But we know that it's been hugely successful for many others. So we think that it's worth us, looking at your entire content marketing strategy, and how we might incorporate LinkedIn, as a social media platform, in that overall strategic approach. And then perhaps we can talk about the use of Instagram for paid social, for example, and the rise in how other marketers are currently jumping on that trend. So these are all evolving trends that are in our ballpark, they're our, our area of expertise, they build on the ideas that we're already working with the client on. And so therefore, we are asking them to think differently about what they're currently doing. The second element is an anticipated regret and blame and we certainly don't want our idea to be regretted. The way to counteract that for this example that we're using at the moment is to remind them, first of all, for all the time and resources that we've spent so far developing the momentum and show the case studies of other clients who are also revising their strategy and the success that they are having.  And then thirdly, the perceived cost of change. So we need to make sure that we highlight that if the client doesn't change, there is a potential downside of not changing. And as we know, from Daniel Kahneman's research, he won a Nobel Prize for his work in this area. And he found that people are twice as likely to make a change as a result of a loss, a potential loss, rather than a gain. So we do need to highlight if we don't change and conduct this new, you know, review of the content marketing strategy, then, if we stay the same, it could be damaging if we show that the impact on brand reputation as a result of not updating the messages that, you know, have needed to be changed in light of, first of all the research, but also maybe current events, like the pandemic and how consumer behaviour is changed, then, you know, it could be detrimental to our brand. So that's another example of how we can show them the cost of doing nothing.   And then finally, selection difficulty. And this is where we can clearly show them examples of what other brands are doing currently, perhaps, if they don't review their content marketing strategy, and continue with messaging that was relevant last year, for example, and the backlash that they can have for their brand from their customers. And on the upside. If they do revise their content marketing strategy, we could show examples of how that really is conducive to consumer brand, consumer sentiment and how successful other brands have been.   So I really hope that that has given you some food for thought about presenting new ideas to your clients. And just to recap, those four elements of this status quo bias are preference stability, anticipated regret and blame, perceived cost of the change and selection difficulty. So if we are thinking about presenting ideas that help our clients change, then we need to be aware of how their current thinking is around making changes.  If you've enjoyed this episode, this is just one part of a nine part process that we go through at the Account accelerator. So this one part is included in the section of my Account Accelerator training programme, all about growing existing business and how we can make sure that we go from unpredictable project revenue to more predictable account growth by making sure that we have a client centric approach to account growth, and this is one small element of what we go into a lot more depth on and other elements of psychology that help us in the way that we manage clients.  So if it sounds intriguing to you, and you'd like to know more, I'm running my next Account Accelerator training programme on the 15th of April 2021. So please let me know if you're interested in joining that one at Jenny Plant on LinkedIn, or jenny@account managementskills.com. Until the next time.

Transcript:Jenny  Welcome to the Creative Agency Account Manager podcast with me, Jenny Plant,from Account Management Skills training. I'm on a mission to help those in agency client service, keep and grow the existing client relationships, so their agency business can thrive. Welcome to Episode 16. This episode is with Andy Young and Laura Cohen. They're both strategic account managers for Skeleton productions and Skeleton is a full service agency specialising in video production. In this chat, they share some brilliant tips and ideas for you if you're an account manager, and you want to enhance your account management skills, and be seen as more consultative with your clients. So they're going to share why shifting from being a good relationship builder to taking more of a challenger approach with your clients works, how to build trust with your clients, so they take risks and do bigger and bolder projects with you, why keeping your finger on the pulse with future trends happening in your specialism is key to ensuring your clients see you as an advisor, rather than an order taker. What a pre flight questionnaire is and how to use one, and why you shouldn't be scared of the word strategy. They're going to share tips on how they've kept decision makers engaged throughout projects, and how to get things back on track if the project goes awry, and so much more and so many more valuable tips and ideas for you. So I really hope that you come away with some value from this episode, grab a pen, take some notes, because they really don't stop with all of the brilliant ideas. Enjoy. So Andy and Laura, they are strategic account managers from Skeleton productions. And I'm really thrilled to have them on the show because from my side, I think they're going to share some really interesting insight into what it's like to be a strategic account manager. So Andy, do you mind if I start with you? Can you just spend a couple of minutes talking about your role, what you do and how you found yourself in account management?  Andy  Yeah, thanks for having us on, by the way, Jenny. Yeah, so me personally, I'm strategic account manager at skeleton, we work with our clients to offer top level strategic advice for their video content. Sometimes we branch out a little bit further than that. But primarily, it's helping them achieve remarkable things with video. And I kind of came into Skeleton through another agency that was full service. But one of the things that I really, really enjoyed about working there was video, so I kind of made the move to skeleton purely because of that. But before that slightly different world, I used to work in craft beer. So I used to work for Brewdog. And then I ended up working for a smaller company after that important beers from America and distributing in the UK in Europe. So it was quite a bit of a shift. But the sales and the marketing side that I learned while working in craft beer really, really helped me take that first step into agency account management. And then from there, I've just kind of grown really. Jenny  Really amazing. Thank you very, very interesting and diverse background. And I'm glad you said that the brewdog experience helped you in your current role, I think, and what specifically I'm here just before I move on to Laura, what specifically do you think was the key thing that helps you having worked in another industry and another type of organisation? Andy  I think sometimes it lends some like transferable skills. I think when I worked at Brooks, I was customer facing as well, it does, I guess, really, really helped you with your confidence with that. And then you also learn how bigger companies work and grow quality work there, it was quite a quite an expansive growth. So I think you'll learn about what it takes for a company to grow. And that's essentially what we're trying to do with our clients. We're trying to help grow a part of their business, grow their offering, grow their team, we're trying to grow something. And I think I learned a lot about that by working at Brewdog.  Jenny  That's a really interesting and key thing, though, that you just said was like the business you understood the business outcomes and from a client's business perspective, because I think from my side meeting different agency account managers, that's the shift you need to make, isn't it to bring the most value. So that's really interesting. Thank you for sharing. Laura, welcome. Can you spend a couple of minutes talking about your background?  Laura  Yeah, certainly, once again, thanks for inviting us on today. It's really, really nice to be invited. So I am a strategic accountant manager at Skeleton I look after about 10 of the agency's accounts, and they range from B2B to B2C clients and all varying sizes from SMEs to global organisations. skeleton is very different to what I've done before. It's very niche. So we're a full service agency that specialises in just video and editing motion related really. And we offer video strategy right through to delivering the content and distribution. And that's a mix of 2D, 3D animation, and really using the app storytelling to create compelling stories that engage and delight our customer audiences that ultimately drive results, but they're also very niche and it's very focused just on video and motion which is different to my backgrounds previously. So previously, I've worked in full service agencies in the 20 years that I've been working within marketing, I started off as an account executive from a trafficker, all the way around out to an account director level and also working in marketing as well. So I have worked on the client side too so it's very different in that we are very focused in terms of the you know, when we should just we do video and we do motion. But it has allowed me to draw on those experiences of where I've been in marketing before, for instance, and been a client myself understanding of what's important to the client, and what's also important to the agency. And I felt, I feel like that really helps kind of, you know, shape your brief, understand what the client's business objectives are, and not just say, from the agency points of view. In terms of the other areas that I've worked with full service, I think it just helps to have that knowledge, just to know where else you can possibly help the client. So although we specialise in video, it's not to say that we can't say actually, you know, you really need to do some work with your SEO, well, you really need to think about this. And then we put them together with some of the connections. So kind of drawing all that experience to helps.  Jenny  I think that's what I love having worked with both of you, I could see that you both have a strategic mindset, as your title kind of suggests, where you could add different value to the client in lots of different areas. So just what do you think is the key benefit if you've got an agency listening that's deciding to specialise in maybe one specific offering like you have? What do you think are some of the benefits to an agency to really focus in and specialise in one area? Laura  I think one of the benefits of the agency is that we are absolutely experts in that field. So we will know all of the latest trends, we will know everything there is to do from strategy, right for delivery, right through to what the latest things are happening and creative. This is what we do day in, day out. And it becomes second nature. And second nature so much so that, you know, we forget this, sometimes when we tell this to our own clients, you know, we have to sort of spell that process out because we do do it every day. Whereas other agencies video is an add on, it's a bolt on, it's just another surface. But we do is this is what we do every single day. And we and we do it because we love it. Jenny  That's brilliant. Andy, I remember a few months ago working with you, you were looking at trends that were happening in the market for some of your clients weren't you in terms of what was happening, future focus, and I've seen a lot of your posts on LinkedIn, which, again, is a very sort of impressive action, for me to see through from the account management community, actually positioning yourself as sort of leading in that field.  Andy  Yeah, and the people that you're working with, you've got to think, as I said, like video is very, very niche. And so it's a very, very small part. But it is a rabbit hole when you start learning about it. And you're starting to try and be forward thinking and I think it's a great position that you can be in to do that to then lead your client, they're not coming to you saying can you do XYZ, you're saying to them, Look, I've spotted that this is happening, your competitors haven't done that yet, I think you should be doing it. Because that feeds into your objectives as a business, you want to be thought leaders, you want to be the best person in this industry. So we want to help position you like that we've got several clients that are like that they have got very, very strong competition, there's very, very little differentiation. And so by us, like focusing on those little wins that we can kind of help them with. And as Laura said, it's stuff we do day in day out. And it's almost very, very normal for us. But it's not for a lot of people I could say video is a very, very small part of their marketing mix. But it's very powerful as well. Jenny  Laura, what do you think, above and beyond, you know, looking at future trends? What other things, and bringing them to your clients, what other things do you think are valuable about the account management role? Laura  I think it's being really the account management role in terms of adding value to account management, is that what you mean, in terms of how we add that value? I think one of the values that strategic account manager brings to the client is that we really get to know our clients, both in a professional sense, but also in a personal sense. And having that greater understanding and in depth understanding of your clients objectives, their challenges, it allows you to understand the brief and to interpretate, the brief for the greater team, like the devil is always in the detail and as a strategic account manager and account manager, if you don't have the answers for the creative team, you know that we're never going to deliver a brief that is that is the creator that is on brief. And we almost have to act as if we are almost kind of creative directors in some sense as well, we have to have the answers. So you have to know your client inside and out, you have to make sure that the brief is right. And you have to make sure you're adding that value in you're asking those questions get to know your client well enough so that the outcome of that brief is exactly what they're expecting. And it gets the results really, I think there's nothing worse than not having the answers for a creative team as a strategic account manager.  Jenny  Yeah, it almost puts the personal pressure on you internally in the agency, doesn't it to kind of come up with the goods, but also forces you to ask the right questions in the briefing session with the client. Yeah, and what's your experience been with him?briefs in general. I mean, I suppose we've all been guilty of doing a bad brief. And we're at some point in our career, I don't know about you, but I'm recalling a really bad moment in my career, when I walked into the creative department gave the brief, she read it, and then she just threw it across the room. I had to go out of the room with the tail between the legs.  Laura  Yeah, I had that in mind. One of my is the second agency I worked in when I moved to Nottingham, and my creative director there, he was ruthless. And he would literally throw them back at me when I mean, one after the other. But that was great learning. It was great learning to know, you know, what goes in is what comes out. And you have to ask all those questions. And you have to challenge the brief, because actually, sometimes the client, that isn't actually what they need, it doesn't meet the objective. So actually, so I and I have that quite a lot with my clients in that I have to challenge the brief. And they appreciate that because it shows that we're listening, it shows that we're listening, and it shows that we're using our expertise, and they trust us. And that often then leads to more work, because actually, we now need to do another video that answers another brief because we've been trying to put too much into one video, which ultimately dilutes the message completely.  Jenny  I love that you brought that point up, Laura, because you're right, you're demonstrating your understanding by being critical, like critical thinking, I think with the client shows how senior you are. Because that's the only way that then they they trust you if you are giving them your genuine advice. I mean, the subject recently of consultancy, and us becoming consultants, is so rife at the moment everyone's talking about, and a lot of account managers is changing their title to consultant. So I think that's a really key point. Similarly, there's a study by Gartner, actually, that was done at the end of 2019, all about why account managers aren't growing their existing accounts. And one of the things that it concluded was that there was this absence of having future focused business conversations with their clients, which means that we are painting a picture of our vision for the future business. But also we've got a critical perspective. So I think creating almost that tension in the relationship is part and parcel of becoming more senior as an account manager. What what are your thoughts on this Andy? Andy  Well, I was used to be a when you think of account managers on time you think of a relationship builder. That's what you are, you're there to build relationships. But I've seen myself shifting definitely recently to a more challenger mentality. And I think that kind of shift does elevate you in your in your client eyes, it adds additional value to them. And as Laura says, it allows you to get there, get the briefs and get on to the nitty gritty so that when we go back internally, we can produce the best work possible because we've fully understood their business, we've fully understood their aims. And again, to reiterate what Laura said, sometimes the client says, I want an explainer video for this, I don't want it done like this. And it's like, hang on, let's look at what you're trying to achieve. What are you talking to, and let's see if that is the right way. You're saying you want live action, maybe animation is better. By having that you really get people to think and it just builds, it just builds momentum and and you start to become a trusted adviser. And then they kind of reach out to you saying, right, we're trying to do this in 2021, we'd love to have your input on the content plan. And things like that opened up a whole new avenue conversation, a whole new added value to that relationship Jenny  It's so true. That's so spot on, to kind of build on that point. What other skills do you think you need to be a great account manager, or strategic account manager? Because this is what we're talking about here? We're talking about providing a level of service and a level of kind of consultancy, to fulfil their business needs. So for both of you really, I'd love to know what what are the skills you think are important?  Laura  I think listening is one of the biggest skills you need to have, as a strategic account manager, I think you must have listened to your client's needs, let them talk, you know, let them hit what are the difficulties they're facing? What are the objectives? What have they done before? What worked? What didn't work? Where are they at now? How is it affecting them? Listen, because out of that listening will come solutions that you can present to your clients. And that's not solutions just because you're getting a sale, it's genuine solutions that's going to help them achieve a goal. Interpersonal Communication skills, I think goes hand in hand you have to have those to do the job with people don't only just buy the work they'd people do buy our advice, and they buy us individually isn't, you know, they buy us if we care. And I'd say integrity is really important. You should always act with integrity. The services that we offer should always be right for the clients and the clients objective. We shouldn't be thinking about what products and services we offer that we can shoehorn into our client. It should be the other way around. So I think for me, those kind of three skills are key to being a strategic account manager.  Jenny  I love that last point that you made about sort of our values really, you know, and our integrity. I spoke to an account manager early yesterday. I'm going to interview him on the podcast, he's from a completely different industry. He's from the tech industry. And the projects he's working on are hundreds of millions of pounds. And he started off by saying, values that are the key thing for me. Because if my company, if I'm not aligned with my company values, it's my reputation in the market. Because at that level, it's about your contacts and who you've created relationships with. So you've got to make sure that every role you have, you're aligned with your own personal values and integrity. So I love that point, Laura really well made. Andy, what about you anything that you would add to what Laura said? I think there's some great things there. Andy  Yeah, I think listening is vitally important. I think sometimes if you just sit and listen, a client does generally want to kind of share more with you as well, because people like, like to share about the business, the things that they're proud of the things that they want to improve, and they have genuine excitement about where they want to take their business. And I think would add to that the inquisitive nature, as well, if you've got an inquisitive nature, and you're probing, and you say, That's interesting, that's interesting, I think I want to know more about that, I want to know more about that. And if it is genuine, that really comes across as well. And that goes really, really far in the relationship. A couple of things I would say would be adaptability, this market is ever changing. Tech's always changing, that we use research tools are always changing, you've really got to be on it and willing to go with it if you want to be that forward thinking account manager. I would say, probably now more than ever as well. Resilience is absolutely key. A hell of a lot of work goes into working with clients, a lot of it behind the scenes as well, I think sometimes clients don't understand the work that goes into what you present to them, what your idea is that you're sharing. And sometimes it just doesn't come off. And that's the way it goes. And last year, we had several projects pulled because of COVID. For a resilient nature gets you through those and you get to reap the benefits as it comes back around when those compensations start up again. I think resilience is as a strong one that will will put you in good stead to be a decent account manager. And the only other thing I would add as well is just be a good human being. I think that's really really important as well, in these times, just being a decent human being to each other because it is even though it's business to business, it's still person to person. So be a good person.  Jenny  Oh, no, that's such a lovely point. It's so nice. And, you know, we started off the call, didn't we, Laura shared that she's homeschooling at the moment, which I don't know about you. But a lot of my clients are homeschooling and it puts a pressure on you doesn't it puts a personal pressure on your life, and that's obviously going to spill over into the work life as well. So love that point, you know, be empathetic, and be human. Lovely point. I'm keen to have a few examples, maybe from both of you as to perhaps how you were able to add value to a client and what the impact on their business was.  Laura  Yeah, I can kick off with a couple of examples that might see what they said quite right. So we were commissioned to do a video strategy for Thomas Sanderson, Thomas Sanderson are very high end window furnishings company. And the video strategy runs right from sort of initially running out of business insights workshop sessions with the key stakeholders to gain insights into their marketing objectives, their goals, SWOTs etc, and understanding of their entire business right through to the final end of the video strategy. And one of the things I added to it, it sounds very basic. But this is just kind of a way in which I think a strategic account managers should be thinking is before we even went into this session, so I created what we call put together a pre flight questionnaire. And in this pre flight questionnaire, are all different information that we would need to know for this project. So it's Who are the people who are responsible? What are your marketing plans? What have you done? Who are your agencies? What trends do you use? What trends Bibles do you use kind of all of that kind of core information that we needed to get. And by gathering all that kind of basic information in like a big spreadsheet, which I could submit way prior to these workshops, it just allowed us and the purpose of me doing that was just get the detail, which allowed us to have so much detail we needed to know. But by knowing that, by thinking ahead, and knowing that we were able to allow us to have the time with those key stakeholders in that meeting, to just purely focus on planning, and getting their inputs into that process, which was, you know, one of the most valuable, they are time precious, we only had four hours, maybe per session. So actually not getting bogged down in some of that detail. It really helps just add value. And I think that's just one of the things that you can be thinking of as a tool, as strategic account managers. What can I do to make this process as streamlined as possible? And to get the most out of both of those sessions?  Jenny  That's really useful because that's repeatable, isn't it? Once you've put the effort into establishing your pre flight questionnaire, and maybe someone listening is thinking, Oh, we don't actually systemize the questions we ask or we don't sort of dig deep enough. And all of that experience of learning because when I'm hearing you both, actually you rattle off the types of questions that you typically ask your clients and it shows how ingrained that kind of behaviour is for you both so  for many people maybe it doesn't come as second nature, but for you, I can see how sort of proficient you are with it. So I think that's a lovely idea and a great little tip for those listening craps to do that, you know, because it also allows you to systemize your onboarding process, doesn't it? Laura  Like it says that yeah, exactly that it really helped with the onboarding, it helped me with a client that had never done a video strategy before. It helped them gather the information all in one sheet. So they knew exactly what they needed. It gave them time to do it. And as I said, it really allowed us to really focus on the core objectives of what their business workshop was with the right people.  Jenny  And what's the downside of not asking the right questions. Laura  If you don't ask the right questions, you want to do that you're not going to get the right brief. The brief the brief won't be right. If you don't ask the right questions at that stage or the right information, your strategy, your recommendations could be completely wrong. Jenny  And time is money, isn't it? Right? Yeah, absolutely. That's right. Love it. Andy, what about for you any examples where you've been able to impact the client's business? Andy  Yeah, I think we worked on a big project last year ahead of Brexit it was for a road haulage company. And they've, it's almost like a once in a lifetime opportunity for them to launch this product that they've been developing to steal them ready for Brexit it was unlike anything else in the market. There was no way it was like a true USP in a very, very competitive, price driven commodity market. So we helped them market a product, which we know is a service, but it's called a product in the industry. And so what we did, we put together a multi channel campaign for them. And they never done marketing like this before. They relied heavily on tele sales and very little on inbound. So we created a multi channel strategy with video at the focus. And so this was during during COVID, it was one of the toughest times to film. And it really kind of stretched us as an agency in terms of reaching this high quality production content. We had like 35 people on set, we had stunt coordinators, we had COVID officers we had everything kind of all put into this piece of high value content that would be the centrepiece of the campaign that was all about utilising that and chopping that up in different ways that we could hit certain target markets who could remarket to them via YouTube, it could reach out to them on LinkedIn. And then that all kind of led to that was a lot of generating awareness. And then we moved people further down the funnel, round the flywheel should I say, into the engagement side of things. So we help them do a webinar, they usually do person to person event face to face events in person. But we help them do a webinar where they had over 1000 signups over 800  new people engaging with them. And then that kind of filtered into really, really high quality leads that they then had the telesales and the team to then convert. So we generated a hell of a lot of leads ahead of what is going to be an intense time for a lot of people. So that's where we added some serious value, because they wouldn't have been able to get to that point in such a tight timeframe, we're talking about five month timeframe, doing zero, all the way up to boom, let's do our biggest ever marketing campaign that we can do. So it was a lot of steep learning curves. And as a client, say they have a graph of pain that kind of goes up like that, and then the bubbles like that, and then another bit of growth comes out. So we've been in the graph of pain portion of that. But we really, really knocked out some incredible content, some incredible results, so that for them to trust us with their most important opportunity in the industry that they've ever come across. And all of them have been in it for a long time, it was quite something significant about the pressure. But it was really, really great to have the opportunity to grab it and run with it, which we did as a team. It took a hell of a lot of us to to deliver those results.  Jenny  A few things you've said, I love what you said one of the things is a bit of a reminder about repurposing content and assets you've already got. I know that's something you particularly do really, really well, particularly in the you know, the COVID situation, because a lot of our clients have either been tightening their belt suddenly. But also like working with them with the whole strategy in mind. And then getting them results in such a short period of time. I mean, that shows a huge amount of agility on your part to have pulled that out of the bag and get that all done and get the results within that timeframe.  Andy  I would you say yeah, it were quite nimble, like throughout the process. One thing that I do want to say is that Skeleton had worked with that client for seven years prior to that. So there was a lot of trust that had been built up. And it was an intense collaboration with the client as well, the client was fully dedicated to this opportunity, as well. So there was a lot of back and forth a lot of continued communication. So when I talked about it being a team effort it was about with the client as well. And I think that's something that helps drive results is by setting those common goals at the beginning what you're trying to achieve, and then working to it and all committing to making it a success and that that's what both was and the client did.  Jenny  I love that you brought that up as well actually because you're getting buy in, aren't you you need to get all the stakeholders involved that are going to make that decision. Bring them on that journey with you. And obviously you had built up the trust over seven years. So they were more likely to say okay, we trust you because you've done good work for us in the past. But I still think that's that's really good work. Extending that a little bit, why do you think clients stay with you for the long term? I mean, seven years is a long time for a client to stay with you. What do you think is the secret? Andy   I think in terms of the way we work with people goes back to what we've seen before. We've got that challenger mentality, we're not just there just to execute what they say, what we do is right at the beginning, we try and learn as much about the business as possible so that we can kind of help them grow, help them develop. And yeah, I think it's content that works, and then show them the results and the return on investment of that as well. And it almost just becomes, like natural, it's like why wouldn't we do that, because we know we've got previous track record of delivering XYZ. So let's do that for this and see how that works. And I think I think that's just just just a big part of it just so happens a lot with agencies like we have done a great bit of work, here you go, whatever it is, that's it, and then we'll kind of sit down and think, oh, that's really, really great. But that's, to me as an account manager that's almost like, that's the end of the beginning. The next part is seeing how that works, how we can improve what you've worked on, but also how you can build on the future. And that's continual, it's not linear. And I think if you've got that kind of mentality, it does keep clients on board, because why wouldn't they? Because you're helping them grow their business. So I think that's probably the reason why people would stick with us and do stay with us.  Jenny  Great. And I would agree, I mean, one of the things you both do really, really well is to talk about your case studies in the context of always including business outcomes that you've achieved. And that's a really good point, Andy about, you know, the more outcomes you achieve for the client, the more results you've achieve, it's perpetuating, isn't it, you can reflect on how much they've done with you. And then, you know, build on that with further ideas using your trends analysis and your insight. So that's really the secret to momentum in terms of growing the account, isn't it? Laura, you were just going to say something. Laura  Just building on what Andy said, Really, I just think that the reason, one of the reasons they stay with us is because, you know, we listen. And when we're not scared to challenge that brief, we really care. And we deliver, we always deliver and we don't just sell, we are trusted if not strategic advisors to our clients, it is this kind of perpetual cycle is not linear. We're not just order takers. That isn't how we like to work with our clients. And we like creating beautiful work that takes their audience on a journey, and ultimately drives those results. And we keep thinking of ideas and new ideas how we can build on that, as you've mentioned, in the sort of current climate and how we can maximise their budgets by repurposing existing footage so that they still got some content that they can still be communicating with their audience for but within the new budget that they're now working with. So it's always kind of being agile, and always listening to what they're doing.  Jenny  Lovely, Andy, what were you going to say? Andy  I'd say the word you used then, momentum, I think that is absolutely vital when working with clients to keep that wheel spinning, keep feeding them ideas, keep working with them, they're not gonna say yes to every single one. But you still have given them ideas, you still adding value in some other way, getting them thinking, I think, maintaining that it should be absolutely priority, once you've work that hard to get it up to speed, maintaining that momentum. And another big word to set alongside that would be consistency. So be consistent with your clients keep that momentum going. And that will drive results.  Jenny  It's so true, because what's the worst that can happen? They say, Well, no, that idea particularly under you know, it's not the right time for us, or, you know, that doesn't particularly align with what we've had planned for this year, you know, but they're left with the perception of, wow, these guys are consistently bringing me new thoughts, new ideas based on their understanding of what's changing in the market. Because let's face it, our clients are very kind of, they go very deep in their products, don't they and their business. But we go wide and deep in our industry, and what's changing. So I think that's really valuable. Do you have any kind of forums or situations meetings, that you have those kind of more strategic discussions on a more regular basis? Or do you find that these are ad hoc ideas that you bring to them on a regular basis? Laura  They can be for me a combination of both. So we have regular catch up meetings with them, I would say about sort of top clients. And then those catch up sessions, they are more kind of strategic in terms of where they are in terms of business sharing quarterly plans. And we can get out of these sessions, we then sort of come up with different ideas and suggestions. Or it's just ad hoc, because we're looking at latest trends for different customer bases. So I've got a customer that's in beauty, I've got a customer that's in interiors. So it's looking at their different trends and spotting different things I literally before just before this call, I've just spotted something I've just sent to a client that I thought was amazing but is on brief, you know, really, really interesting for the business. I think it's, for me, I think it's a combination of both dependent clients really.  Jenny  That's a great tip as well, Laura, sort of keeping abreast of what's changing so that the news is coming to you on a regular basis. And then you're sharing it with your client and providing your point of view. You know, because I understand your business because I understand where we are in the relationship. This is why I believe that this is particularly relevant for you. And perhaps this is the action we need to take. So I know that you both do that on a regular basis. So again, it's adding huge amount of value. Andy was there anything else that you were going to add there?  Andy  No, I very much the same as Laura sometimes you have structured meetings, and especially when you're doing like onboarding a client, you'll have every kind of structured meeting to them break down ideas and then future kind of pathways that you can take with them. But I really, really love the organic approach, one thing that I do like to do is make sure I've got connected with people on LinkedIn everyone you work with anytime you've emailed someone that is potential work with them, add them on LinkedIn, because I think it's a really, really easy way to share ideas. As you're scrolling through LinkedIn, sometimes you see something that information about their industry think, oh, I don't know whether you've seen this. But I think this is actually quite cool and quite relevant to what we're working on or, or there's this new bit of software that can measure this I don't know if that might be useful for you. And so by having that, so there's a lot of stuff that happens organically doesn't have to be some gigantic presentation that you're working on to show your ideas. I'll give an example actually I worked with a project management company IT project management company, and their biggest competitor did this amazing Christmas video, they spent mega mega bucks on it, and it was great. I said, Oh, this is really, really great. Maybe we can do it next Christmas type of thing like joking around. But then after I'd watched that I was getting hit with remarketing videos on YouTube. And I was like, taking screenshots of it and just say, they're chunking this video to hit me with because I think I'm interested in because I've been researching. That's what we should be doing. Once we get to the end of the video project we're working on, we should be doing that. And it can just be those things, you don't have to come with a massive deck to pitch my ideas and just overwhelm them I think, the organic, it shows that you're you're thinking about them. And I think I think that's a key thing that consistency links back to that consistency that I was on about. Jenny  You've both shared so much value and tips you know, for people listening, I think you're just like, bam, bam, do this do that. It's really useful. Thank you. I was gonna ask you like, you're obviously, you know, advanced in your career that you've both done an awful lot. Lots of exposure to different types of businesses, different types of role, you're very senior, what do you wish you'd learnt earlier in your career that you think would have been kind of really useful?  Laura  What do I wish I'd learned earlier, I wish that I had learned not to be afraid of the word strategy. I think early on in your career, the word strategy, particularly if you come from a full service or agency background, you always associate with an actual strategist, actually being strategic is just a different way of thinking. And I think that's something could certainly have recently I have I've really learned that, actually not to be scared of that word strategy. It's just a different mindset. It's just a way of breaking down information. And early on in the career, don't be afraid to ask questions. They're your clients who are just there to get the right information out of them. Be yourself. And the brief for me is key. The devil is always in the detail. If you don't challenge that brief, if you don't answer those questions as we've already said, you know, the output will never be on brief, which is going to cost more money and more time and frustration for both parties.  Jenny  Do you know what I bet there are loads of people listening to this thinking, whew, about that strategy, because I think a lot of people do get bogged down with that to say, Oh, it's like, this is someone strategic? And I'm not. And actually we all are, it's just a different way of thinking exactly, as you said. So don't be afraid of it. So I love that really good. And asking great questions. Again, you know, you don't have to have all the answers in front of your client. In fact, don't let that hold you back. Just simply turning the conversation back to the clients, say tell me a bit more about that. Give me a bit more detail, or can you share a bit of background that allows them to then give you more context? And then you can sort of, you know, don't feel like you've got to have all the answers. I think you both kind of this has come through in this chat. You know, listen and ask questions, I think is fundamentally, what an account manager really should be doing all the time. Andy, what about you? What would you have said that you wish you'd known a lot earlier?  Andy  So I would say the same as Laura, to be honest, a lot of it, there's no stupid questions, there's a lot of jargon and acronyms out there, just don't be afraid to ask what they are. Because if you think it means one thing, it could potentially mean another. So I'd always get those clarifications from people because it is very, very broad, when looking at those types of things. And as Laura said, Be yourself, I think people do love it. It's a people, person to personal business. So on that. And then also, I would say, obviously, no one's perfect. And we do make mistakes, I think it's very important to own your mistakes as well. Don't ever try and cover them up or anything like that, whether it's internal or external, own your mistakes, because there are people, if you're just starting out, there will be people more seeing you can help you. And I think clients do appreciate it. If you have  made a mistake to put your hand up and say, Look, I made this mistake, this is what we're gonna do about it and go to them with a solution. It adds value through mistake. Strangely, you don't go out making them intentionally. But I think owning the mistakes is a big important one.  Jenny  And actually, that's really brilliant point as well. Like if there is a mistake, or if there is a problem. The way you handle that problem really can bond you with the client. It can make the client see you even more valuable can't it, how you conduct yourself, how you tackle it, how you speak to the client, how you hold yourself, and actually honesty. Absolutely 100% agree, Andy because you just tell a little fib about anything at any point and your credibility is just gone through the floor. Continuing this thing for both of you to share with me your biggest challenges and how you've overcome them because I think. Again, anyone listening to this maybe on their account management career journey? Either they're gonna come up against the challenge, or they might have experienced the challenge before. So, from your perspective, what are some of the challenges you've had?  Laura  So some of the challenges that I get with clients are, the clients don't like to be challenged on their brief. And that is part of our job to challenge on the brief. Or we have a situation where we've gone past the briefing stage and we're sort of putting together creative options, and the almost one, a hybrid option, kind of mixing too many messages together so that the end result is just mixing, confused, confusing, and doesn't really have a clear creative thread or an idea running through it. For me overcoming those challenges, really, it's to stop and pause, stop, pause and call a meeting, get all the key stakeholders in the meeting, the creative team, if necessary, to clearly explain, from our eyes, our expertise, the rationale for why we're making these decisions. So why we're making these recommendations. And what options are there to move forward. We are experts in the field. They're experts in their business. And it's about the two parties coming together and acting as a team, ultimately, to get the best outcome. And often in that situation, you'll use anecdotes or examples of where this happened for other clients, and you can easily show the other work and show how that the different impacts of the results. That's hard just to bring it to life. And then from that you get there, you can often sometimes have a bit of resistance between an agency and the client. And we're doing it for the good of the job. And we are experts. And that's why you're using us. So just calling that meeting, having a really open forum to talk like that, I find often just comes out with a really good result. I've had it on a project recently. And it you know, it was great. There was no problem. There was absolutely no problem after that meeting. We were all aligned.  Jenny  I love that. I mean, a realignment meeting is brilliant. And presumably the client was open to having a realignment meeting. I think some people call it mid project review meetings. You know, typically, we always do this just to make sure we're all on track all on the same page. But that would make total sense to me to do that. Yeah. So if they don't like being challenged on the brief, are there any other ways that you can shift that perception? Because maybe some clients, you know, see us in that order, take a bucket? And say no, just do it, just get on with it? How can you deal with that situation?  Laura  Those clients can be difficult. So we do have clients that I would say they don't want to work closely with us this is as a commodity. And they want to do some more on a transactional basis. And kind of no matter what advice we kind of want to offer them. It's very frustrating when they just want to see us as order takers. And ultimately that's not how we want to work for clients. And it really is on that stage by challenging the brief, it really is about talking to him about the best outcome. And these are the options that we have for you. We could do it this way. Or we could do it this way. And this is the reason why we don't have this information, or we don't have this information. This isn't right, this is what we're going to end up with. So what we get quite often, when you challenge on a brief is many account managers will find this is that the clients will want to say far too much in one piece of communication. And that's not just a video that goes across absolutely everything. And that's one of the things that we always challenging is actually what are we saying? And who are we talking to. And we really need to dilute this message right down. And sometimes when you spell that out, in a brief and you can turn it flip into something completely different. And you give them an example. They then usually say, oh, okay, I see what you mean. Now, this message is confusing. I don't know what you're trying to tell me. Or you can but you can bring up a TV advert you can bring up anything, you can bring up in a really bad example, as a reference to say, this is why we're challenging you. Because ultimately, what we're going to end up with is something that's very confusing that's not a brief that doesn't talk to your audience.  Jenny  Great. So it's kind of giving them an example of, you know, if we carry on down this road, we're gonna end up here, but actually, we need to end up here. And here's why. And this is how it's usually done typically. And I mean, advertising. I mean, I come from an advertising background, it was always drummed into me, it's a one message medium, you know, and you've got to be really clear with that one message. And some people just want to put all of their bullet points and then the other one make the logo bigger, isn't it? Andy, what about you, in terms of challenges? Andy  I kind of definitely echo what Laura said, Sometimes there's like the realignment meeting just to make sure you're on the you're on the right track. Because the amount of times something could get misconstrued in an email like tone obviously doesn't come through. And sometimes you like be sat there thinking, did they mean it like this to the meaning like that, just pick up the phone and call someone or arrange a meeting, just just do it, it's much easier to kind of really understand what someone's saying. So just make time for those conversations when you need to. I think one of the things that's always ever present is the pace of marketing that we mentioned earlier, why adaptability is so important to kind of constantly try and stay ahead of the game. I think that's always going to be a case not something that you just have to live with. And if you don't enjoy that, it'd be quite tough to be that kind of leader. So you generally have to have some desire to be able to do that. But even then it's still very, very kind of challenging. But we internally have forums where we can share great work we've seen we can share great ideas, we can share what other people have been doing. And so I would recommend that if you're part of a team to share that knowledge, and you kind of share the burden of all staying abreast of that. And I think that's something that's been quite powerful for us. And I also think one of the tougher challenges is not having access to the final decision maker, whether you're working with a partner agency, you've not got access to the client, or you're working with one of the mid tier and they're reporting into C suite, that is always a challenge to be able to get what you're trying to say, to the final decision maker through an intermediary. And basically,  you've got to equip that person as best as possible to do that, if you can't secure that direct dialogue. And that's all it is always fall back on, I always push to get that meeting to the final person, because you're the experts, you know, it all you can feel the questions that might be coming out of it. So always, always push for that. But then failing that, just make sure that the person that you deal with is fully equipped, got everything that they need, they feel confident in what you've gone through with them to make sure they've got all the necessary tools, but that one is never gonna go away. And that is just sometimes the way it is, especially if you're fielding pitches from multiple agencies as it can happen. So yeah, that's one that always kind of, you've just got to do your best given the situation.  Laura  Totally agree on that. And it just to build on it, I'd say like, when you have your projects that you're working on, it's kind of if you haven't got access to that stakeholder, and you can't and you fully equip your client, but just ensuring that you have all the key stakeholders involved at the key sign of processes. So each milestone at the point of no return, you know that there's key stakeholder in the business has at least signed that project off, or signed that milestone off. Jenny   I think this is really good. It's a really good topic. And so when you say equip them, do you mean provide your contact with a business case, so that they can then present that easily to the C suite? Andy  Exactly that and depending on what what you want to do whether you want to create a video for them, it can come in different formats, as well as depending on how you want to get that across to them. It could it could be in a PDF, it could be in PowerPoint, Whatever it is, as long as there's something on there that also sells the idea that you're trying to pitch them, but also sells your agency or you as well, I think that's sometimes important, because you're not able to build that rapport with the end decision maker. So making sure that you've got a little bit of something in there, that is personal, either about you or about the company does help a little bit and give you a bit of credibility, but kind of add that in towards the end. But build them the best business case you can. and then you've just got to hope that that's delivered in the way that you would want to deliver it or as close as possible.  Jenny  And Laura, you said, you know, make sure that you have like key meetings, where all the decision makers around the table and all the key stakeholders so that someone doesn't come in the last minute and say, ooh I've got a change. You know, last night, I spoke to my neighbor's daughter, and she said, you know, we might want to do this with the video that happened to you?  Laura  Yeah, now we'd like it blue and green, please. Jenny  And make the logo bigger! What other ways can we make sure that we are reaching the key decision makers, maybe our day to day contact is not a key decision maker. Any other thoughts on that?  Laura  Making sure that we kind of introduction at the beginning of the project really, and making the whoever our client is aware of what the key milestones are. So what the key milestones are, what are the points of No Return, and what implications they will have to the business if that stakeholder isn't included, for instance, cost implications. So if we are going to put together a storyboard and we sign storyboard off, or if we film something, which can be extremely costly, and we're travelling around the world to film it, and someone hasn't got the buy in from the initial concept that's got massive financial implications. And they were the client who will have to sign that off. So it's in their interests, to share it with the key stakeholders, or to at least get the key stakeholders involved in an initial briefing session or an initial meeting, or at least make sure that they are presenting it to them on our behalf. So it's kind of trying to flip it back really, to the client, always. it's in their interest. It's not just in our interest, it's in their interest to make sure that this briefing is going to be right.  Jenny  Great tips here about sort of managing expectations from the beginning. You know, making sure that you have all of these conversations upfront as part of your onboarding process. So lovely tips. Thank you so much. A few sort of tactical questions, what tools do you tend to use in your job, any sort of apps or tools that you think that help your account management process? Laura   We use HubSpot for our CRM tool, which is our main CRM tool that we use. We use Trello boards to manage our products, actions, kind of daily management tools, Jam boards really good, you know, especially at the minute, we're working remotely, just because we can't get into a situation where we're in a boardroom with sticky notes, it's a virtual sticky note board, which is quite cool to use. Jenny  Is that jam board? How do you spell that?  Laura  Jam board and then it's part it's part of Google suite, G Suite and it's really cool. It's really easy. We've used it for a few like brainstorming sessions and stuff, which is it has worked quite well actually. And use it for clients stuff as well. And we use as a business we use Toggl and stuff as a time management tool, but project management tools really Trello, HubSpot, Jam board.  I'm sure Andy's got loads more. Andy  I do though, I do love a good day. I do love a good tool, to be honest, to make our life a little bit easier. I would say HubSpot again, is my absolute favourite that we work with it can track email. So if you're working across an account with all the people, they can see clear communication that you've had, which allows you to burrow further if sharing an account are the things that I do like it has a trackable document you can send to me if your clients are engaging with the content that you're sending them, whether it be PDF or something similar. And it's got tasks in it as well, which I think is really, really vital sometimes to you've got an email, you can set a task to follow up or you can set a task to do this by a certain date. And then you can just go to your task list and just work through them. Because I think one of the hardest things you can do probably I mentioned this earlier, is create structure, as an account manager to give yourself some structure of where you should be spending your time. And HubSpot helps me do that. I think other things that really help you we're starting using Frame.io for feedback. So it's not just about doing great work for our clients is about making ourselves as easy as possible and stress free to work with as possible. Frame IO is one of the tools that we've recently invested in that really helped us do that.  Jenny  And what does that specifically?  Andy  So it's such a, it seems such a little thing. But so what essentially is it's a tool for reviewing video. So you can easily just kind of like click on the video where you want to comment on the timestamp. And then it's also got revision history as well. So you can see what feedback was given on stage one, to then reflect back on that or look at stage to see, see where those changes have been implemented, and then then be able to work that way. And it just gives a very kind of clear idea to the client. So if they're reporting internally, what's happening with the project, you can say, right, we're at stage one, this is where at stage one, these are the changes that was supposed to make and more than ever it is powerful, because it allows that collaboration from wherever you are, it's very rare, someone's going to sit and watch a video in an office and you've got all stakeholders around. So anyone from anywhere, and you can do in different time zones, you can even enough conversations on it. So someone says I want this being read, or they want it read because of XYZ and say, Yeah, okay, we'll make it green. So it's got things like that. And that seems such a small snippet, but it's all part of owning the client, and owning the experiment. So keeping that momentum going. Because I think sometimes it's not just about great quality of work. It's about how easy you are to work with, as well once things get going. So there's that. And then a biggie that I've used a lot, especially with the campaign that I mentioned earlier was Wistia. So Wistia is a video hosting platform. But it's got great analytical tools on it. So you can see where people are dropping off, you can see rewatcher, you can see where people are engaging on call to actions. And it really really does help them to see how well the content's performing. You think people are rewatching this part, do we break that down further create some content around that people will be watching it because they want to know more about it, or they don't fully understand it in that video. So let's expand upon that and create some content for it. And then you measure that. So Wistia and I know other video hosting platforms that do that, but I don't think any quite does it as well as Wistia. So that's a really kind of big tool for me to show that added value that we bring.  Jenny  Very valuable, very valuable. Thank you so much. I'll add a couple more just on from my side Streak is something that I use that integrates with Gmail. So it's like HubSpot, but it does what I want it to do in terms of CRM, Mural, and Miro, you've probably come across them, but for collaboration and you know, everyone doing post it notes, a brainstorming session, some kind of strategy session is often useful. But thank you for sharing. Those are really, really useful. Just two more questions, because I'm conscious of your time, how do you see the account management role evolving in the future? Laura  I think the role would become more strategic for an account manager. We are strategic account managers. And I think within the agency businesses, account managers will be given more remit, more remit more trust and more confidence to get to know their clients better. I think there'll be less of a hierarchy like there has historically been in agencies, and more ownership for the account managers to really get to burrow into those clients and get to know them, get to know them better, and work with them more strategically.  Jenny  Amazing. What about you, Andy?  Andy  Yeah, this same kind of thing, I think, expected to be more integrated into your clients, clients company, the clients team, I think that'll be an expectation. And it's something that we do do now. But now it's slightly out out of the norm. But it will become the expectation, I think that's where it's going to go and it's, it's just going to be all about getting to know absolutely anything and everything you can about that client and about the business and the way the business works not just about their market, but the way the business works, because that makes it so much easier when you're dealing with the more process side of things like sign off, to get everyone on board those types of things. And not only are they producing great content, but you're making yourself as easy as possible to work with. I think that'll be a big part of it. But I think the thing at the moment is no one's to show what that looks like. And I think that's probably a really exciting, exciting prospect because we really don't know what that is. And we're able to kind of help shape that.  Jenny  I agree with you and the point you made, Laura was really key, I think the idea of consultancy being more like a management consultant understanding their business problems, I think it's a huge trend. And, in fact, I was in very, thankfully invited to a roundtable discussion the other day with a group of Client Services directors for BIMA. And that was the one topic that we're talking about this idea of consultancy, because many account managers are having their names changed to consultant. That's the trend that's happening, and being more consultative. So I think you're right, not, you know, goes without saying that you've got the likes of Accenture, Deloitte, PwC, buying creative agencies left, right and centre. So that kind of trend is that that the two are kind of merging? So I absolutely agree, I think that's spot on. Just Finally, any kind of final bits, and you've shared so much value. By the way, I just thank you so much, both of you. Any final advice or tips for someone who perhaps is listening to this and thinking, I love the idea of being more of a strategic account manager, any advice for them? Laura  I would say that advice for them first of all, don't be afraid of that word strategy again. Because it really is about just getting to know your clients a bit a bit more. Ask the questions. Listen, don't be afraid to challenge the brief as we said, immerse yourself in their world. Sign up for top tips you know trick tips and trends and things that are happening, you know, if you've got a client that's in fashion, or you've got a client, this interiors or whatever their business might be SaasTech, immerse yourself in that world, get to know it, so that you can really add some value and share the thoughts have been put into it as well. And enjoy it.  Jenny  Lovely, lovely advice. Thanks, Laura. What about you, Andy? any parting tips?  Andy  Oh, obviously, it's taking your course Jenny? That's the big one.  Jenny  I did not pay you to say that did I?! Andy  No, no. In all seriousness, obviously,  working with you is really, really helped both of us. And it's given us confidence. It's given us structure. And it's given us some great tools that we can build on, because we already had a lot of good skills. So it was good, knowing A we've got those skills, and we're good at it. That's a confidence part. And it's like, right, where do you take this next. And I think if you're looking at the bigger picture, I think like learn from the leaders in the industry, I guess, we'll learn from that, adapt your approach, be prepared to fail, because not everything you try is going to work. But then you make sure you're okay with thatm reflecting you go again. And I think, again, just constantly just wanting to learn consume as much information and don't be afraid to try something that might be a little bit different, a little bit alien. But once you've done it a few times, it very much becomes a part of who you are. So I think looking at people who are out there doing it right and who have been doing it right for a number of years, I think is a great way to kind of look up to those people and and try and emulate some of the stuff that they do that really works.  Jenny  Fantastic. Thank you so much, Andy. And I really appreciate the feedback. I think you two are an absolute pleasure to work with, like, absolutely. You know, you had it all. But working together. I think I just saw that kind of enhanced kind of level of consultancy. But if someone is really kind of enjoyed this chat and want to get hold of you, who particularly do you work with client wise, who might be listening and thinking, I really love the sound of utilising video in such a strategic way for my business. Laura   In terms of clients that we like to work with, we like to work with all clients, so from startup companies, to SMEs to global organisations, who have got, who've got a story to tell what we do, we make videos, it's the art of storytelling. And it's the art of storytelling mixed with whatever there's going to be live action animation, what that looks like, we are telling a story that is ultimately going to make somebody an audience do something. And from that doing that something there's going to be a result. And whether you're in any of those organisations that I've just mentioned in you're in B2B or B2C? You know, really, we'd love to work with you, we'd love to show you what we can do.  Jenny  Brilliant, and how can people reach you? What's the best way?  Laura  The best way to reach us is a fire our Well, our website, really and our details on the website, or directly via email addresses and mine is laura.cohen?skeletonproductions.com. Jenny  And is the website skeletonproductions.com?  Laura  The website is skeleton productions.com. And all our contact details are on there as are our faces.  Jenny  You're right, your lovely faces. Well, thank you both so much, honestly, that was really, really brilliant. And I think so many people would have got so much value. So many ideas coming through. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me today.  Laura  No problem. Thank you very much for having us. And thank you very much your course you really have added so much, so much to us. And yeah, I think both Andy and I have really benefited benefited from the course so thank you.  Jenny  It's a pleasure. I hope you came away with lots of tools and ideas and tips that you can take away from this episode and apply right now in your role. Just a reminder that on the 15th of April, I'm going to be running my next Account Accelerator programme. This is a three month training and coaching programme. There are weekly calls, and I take you through a step by step programme to take your agency from unpredictable project revenue to more predictable account growth. So by the end of 90 days, you come away with a client centric plan to increase your revenue from your existing accounts. So if you'd like to join me, please get hold of me on LinkedIn, Jenny Plant, or drop me an email. It's Jenny@accountmanagement skills.com. I look forward to hearing from you soon.