The Leadership Habit

The Four Pillars of Leadership with Leadership Coach Nils Vinje On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down and talked with Nils Vinje. Nils accelerated from an individual contributor to vice president in 30 months. And every team that he ran became a high-performing team. So what did he do? He deduced this experience down to a process, a process that formed the foundation around his leadership coaching. Once Nils started using his playbook, the results were remarkable. Join Host Jenn DeWall as she talks to Nils about his playbook, the 30 Day Leadership Playbook and the four pillars of leadership. Enjoy the conversation. Meet Nils Vinje, Leadership Coach and Author Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I am so excited to have the one and only Nils Vinje! Nils and I are going to be talking about a lot of different things as it relates to a leader. We’re going to be talking to Nils about how you approach leadership. We’re going to be talking about techniques to make your leadership style, hopefully, more impactful more influential. We’re gonna be talking about a lot of different things and what you call your pillars of success or your pillars of leadership. And I’m so excited to bring that to the audience, but before we even go forward, I have to ask, I love the origin stories. I wanna know. How did you come to be? How did you come to be a leadership coach? You have all this experience within customer service as well. I mean, you have such a great diverse background. I wanna know. How did you come to be today? What, what would, what did that, I guess career progression look like? Nils Vinje: Hi, Jenn. Well, thank you so much for having me on as a guest. Super excited to dig into all things leadership, and I love this as an opening question. I think it’s a fascinating story just because there is no one perfect path. And I, I do stress that with everybody I’ve always worked with, there is no one defined perfect path for anyone. And I’m a perfect example of that. So the first ten years or so of my professional career, I had no idea where I fit in the professional world. I literally bounced around and did every job, from being a software engineer, which I was absolutely terrible at, to being a Xerox sales rep. I actually went door to door selling copiers, if you can believe that! It was just as painful as it sounds. There are some people in the world who are cut out for that. I, however, was not one. And I’ve learned that lesson very, very quickly. And it was quite an interesting experience. So I got to the point where I was like, I have no idea where I fit. I’ve tried everything stints in marketing and sales, engineering solutions, consulting, consulting, you name it. I tried it. And then I got fed up, and I did what all people do when they get fed up. I went back to school, I got an MBA in management and organizational behavior. And that’s when the light bulbs started to go off. And I realized that that point, which was shocking to me that the whole field of management and the whole field of leadership had an entire science and industry research, everything behind it. Yet, the people that I worked for in the organizations that it worked at for that ten years, never really knew anything about this. And I was compelled and driven to bring great leadership back to the companies that I worked for after grad school. So I went, got back into the working world. I was part-time. I was working full-time, sorry, going to school part-time and then accelerated the second half of the program and took a little break. I got back into my first role is what’s called a customer success manager. Now in the B2B SaaS world. This is the team and the individuals who are responsible for the customer post-sale. So when’s sales team goes out and sells a deal. Then the customer success team takes over and works with those customers to ensure they get onboarded, the software gets integrated, they ultimately get value and they renew and expand their contracts. So this was finally where I felt like I fit in the world. All of a sudden, all those little skills, the sales piece from Xerox, the technical skills from trying to be a software engineer, the solutions consulting, sales, engineering, all those skills were needed in this role to serve the needs of the client. And that for me was like just awesome. It was just amazing. So from that point, I went on a very fast track because my alignment with the work was tremendous. My passion for this field was amazing, and it was a very, very just nascent field. It barely even existed. This was 10 years ago, and I went from an individual contributor to a vice president in two and a half years. I was so driven and had the previous 10 years of knowing what I didn’t wanna do that. Once I found the right fit, everything went up into the right now; at the beginning of this time, I also became a certified leadership coach and began to coach people on the evenings weekends whenever I could. I started coaching people outside of work. I started coaching people inside of work. Whenever I brought up the topic like, Hey, I’m, I’m a coach. They’d be like, oh, tell me more about that. They were always really interested in it, and I would share, and I’d ask ’em some questions and say, well, there might be some opportunity for me to help you. And then we’d go on. And that was the way it went for many years when I formed my consulting business in 2015. That was when I took all my expertise in the customer success base and said, I wanna help more companies build great customer success organizations. And I also did a lot of leadership coaching, but it was never at the forefront. It was always an add on to the projects and I didn’t really ever know how to make it the primary thing until the pandemic happened. And when the pandemic happened, my consulting business went to zero in about 48 hours because it was all built on very high touch, one on one close relationships. And you might imagine it was a tough time. And I had to look at my skill set, look at the things that I could do, the value I could bring to the market, the market I was bringing it to. And I decided to pivot my business to focus more on the leadership development. And that’s what drove me to write my book 30 Day Leadership Playbook, which we’re gonna get into more. And then ultimately build a program called the B2B Leaders Academy and run a top rank podcast called the B2B leadership podcast. So there is no one perfect path that I took to get to this point. It is the amalgamation of all kinds of different experimentation and really never being willing to settle for anything less than. And I thought was exceptional in those jobs, in my roles, in my company, looking at everything with fresh perspective and trying to adapt to the situation as best I could. Jenn DeWall: That is a phenomenal story, especially around, you know, I know people hate this word, but , the “pivot” or adapting, right? Making, Hey, you know what I, my business went from blank to not really, Nils Vinje: It was really good, right. It disappeared. The Importance of Leadership Development Jenn DeWall: And there are many people that were faced with that crossroads. Yes. Do you keep pushing and figure out a new way? Do you, you know, decide to close up, shop, go a different way, end it all, whatever that might be. But one of the things that I love that you even cheered, because I think it’s just an important conversation is just how a leadership is initially formed to us earlier in our careers and how that, you know, you and I talked about this in the pre-call about just the different observations of kind of the, wow, why is leadership maybe lacking in these huge organizations where you would think they have the resources to be able to, you know, invest in this development, but yet it kind of still falls in those, you know it’s a nice to have. Nils Vinje: It’s a nice to have. We don’t have time to do it, we’re busy. Jenn DeWall: I love that because there’s, I know I love that story of observing that and recognizing it, there’s gotta be a better way. And so if you are in an organization, you know, here’s your opportunity to either advocate for leadership development or to recognize like, Hey, there’s other organizations that are going to place us at the forefront. You may have some leaders that maybe could benefit from training, but you know, don’t personalize those things. I look like to look at that as research that then researches, what would you do differently? How could you engage and influence? But I love that you said there’s not one defined path because we always get to choose it. We always get to reinvent ourselves. You’re only one with the limits. Are You the CEO of Your Career? Nils Vinje: That’s right. That’s right. And, and that, that is, that was not apparent to me until the time that I went back to grad school. Because up until that point, I had never seriously invested in myself. I waited for my company to provide training for me. I waited for them to tell me what to do. I was in the backseat. There was a, a Saturday morning in, early in grad school when we’d have outside speakers come in and they’d spend a couple hours with us on Saturday morning. It was a really cool experience and great opportunities. And this one speaker came in on one Saturday morning, first semester. I’ll never forget. It was sitting in the audience couple hundred people. And the speaker walks out on stage, stands, square, right in the middle looks directly in the audience. I felt like he was like looking into my soul and he asked one very powerful question. He said, are you the CEO of your career? Ha. And I went the what? Excuse me? Me, hold on. And in that moment, my entire professional career flashed before my eyes, I literally saw all these situations and things. And I began to get angry with myself, sitting in that chair. And the resenting answer that came outta my mouth at that time was no, I’m not. And I was so angry with myself, having never been asked question, having never asked this question myself, that it was the turning point where in that moment in that chair, that Saturday morning, I made the commitment to never, ever not be the CEO of my career. And from that point on any investment in myself was a hundred percent my responsibility. I was never gonna wait for a company. I was never gonna wait for a boss. I was never gonna wait. Somebody reimburse me. I was going to make the investment well matter what it took and get to what I wanted to do, cuz I was the only one in charge cuz I am the CEO of my career. And I flipped the script that day. And that was a huge pivotal moment for me. Jenn DeWall: What a powerful story of just taking charge or having that awareness, you know, that all took was one question to make you think, oh my goodness. And being engaged, being open to that question, right. Not looking at it as I don’t need to reflect on that. I love that and how that completely altered different paths and choices and also recognizing you always get to choose it. That’s right. So powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Nils Vinje: My pleasure. Jenn DeWall: Go on, oh, go ahead. Nils Vinje: That was just that one. I mean that sentiment of one being open to question, but just the, the power that even just one question has. You know, and that’s a core, you know, leadership fundamental piece too, is if you have better questions, you will get better engagement, better responses. And this example is perfect. One single question was worth it, is worth, you know, what it add up to the last 15 years of my career and the success that I’ve had and the things that I’ve gone on to do came from that one powerful question. If that leader had started off that presentation any differently, I might have been on a completely different trajectory than this point, but I’m very thankful for that. And I think as leaders, we always need to keep that in mind that, you know, the questions that we ask have the ability to positively, or certainly negatively impact the people’s lives that work for us. And that is why it is so important to ask the right kinds of questions, to put yourself in the right situation, to help other people transform and see, just like in my example here. Jenn DeWall: I think that there are so many, you know, I hear, and I’m sure you have two in your experience as a leadership coach at a pain point for some leaders, maybe that they feel like people aren’t driving the career or taking the lead and growing it. And I feel like that is the best question that they should all ask their team. Are you the CEO in your career? Yeah. Instead of just waiting for maybe that leader to figure it out, like, are you the one that’s driving that? You know, are you taking initiative? I think you just gave people a powerful tool because it’s much more impactful than, are you happy here? Yeah. Nils Vinje: I’m happy today. I might not be happy tomorrow. That’s a, you know, it’s not gonna get you very far. That’s a, a generic question. But when you ask something much more powerful it opens the doors and you know, then there’s an honest conversation about what does it even mean to be the CEO of my career, hang on. And most of the people, you know, I share this regardless of their first time managers, directors, VPs, even C-level people, this one resonates in incredibly well with everybody because there are points in time where you may have taken control and then there’s points in time where you likely have let it go as well. So if you’re in one of those points in time where you’ve let it go, or you’re not quite sure what to do, right. Take a step back and ask yourself the question. Well, as a CEO of my career, like what’s the strategic decision that’s gonna make the difference for me and what I want to do, irrespective of the environment what’s going on with my company, my teams, other things, what is it that I’m going to be able to do to get to contribute the most amount of value to everybody else? The Four Pillars of Leadership Jenn DeWall: Yes. I love that. I think this is a powerful segue into being the, talking about being the CEO in your career. It also starts with thinking about the type of leader that you want to be. How do you wanna show up? What type of impact or influence do you want to have? And you have four pillars or I guess I just wanna hear kind of your framework around how you approach leadership in your business with your clients. How do you start to approach leadership to help people develop that soft skillset, hard skillset and just have that competence to lead. Nils Vinje: Thank you. Yeah, leadership is big, big topic, right? And so what I do is break it down into the four pillars, leading yourself, leading others, leading with communication and leading with metrics. Now within each one of these, there are different areas of focus to drill in deeper in order to get some specific tools that can help help you improve your skills in each one of these areas. You’re never gonna do all this at once. And I would advocate, don’t try to do it all at once, right? These are things that take time. And the only thing we have is time because as we were talking about before leadership is a long term game, and if you are in it for the long term, then you owe it to yourself to invest in yourself. And the way people invest in themselves and like work with me is by working systematically through each of these four pillars to build skills in each and the these areas so that ultimately they can feel confident handling any situation. That’s my job, ultimately, as a coach is to empower my clients with the tools to handle, to confidently handle any situation. The First Pillar of Leadership – Leading Yourself Jenn DeWall: Yes. So let’s dive into that first pillar. I feel like this is. This goes right to that opening question. Are you the CEO in your career? How do you recommend or how do you work with people to help them best lead yourself? So leading yourself is the first pillar, sorry if I maybe threw that in with a bunch of words, but leading yourself is one of the first pillars of leadership. How do you approach that? Nils Vinje: So there’s, there are three key areas in this that break it down and more being continuously added. But this is kind of the core essence of what I think it means to lead yourself. Number one is what I call bulletproofing, your leadership psychology. And as we were talking about here, you have the ability to take control it every time at any point in time. And I found the greatest benefit for my clients over the years has been when I combine strategy with psychology, right? So we have psychology to handle the mindset piece, and we got strategy and tactics to handle that. Actually, what are you gonna do? One without the other. You’re not gonna make as much progress, but both of them together is amazing. So when we talked about bulletproofing your leadership psychology, this is all about truly appreciating and accepting the fact that you are the CEO of your career and looking at the decisions that you make and also the decisions that your team makes against that lens. This also involves what I call claiming your strengths. Strengths binder is one of my favorite assessments to give us a language to describe what you’re naturally talented to do when you know what you’re naturally talented to do, you immediately build confidence and that helps bolster your psychology. So all these pieces come together in that first main air area of bulletproof your leadership psychology, and the other two core areas are mastering your time and building repeatable systems. Lots more to dig into there, but I don’t wanna go too deep just yet, but that leadership psychology one is where it all starts. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, absolutely. And well, and I love that taking that claim own your strengths, too many people. I think I see it as leading without your resume. It’s like, you just bring, it’s essentially like you’re talking and handing someone a blank resume. We don’t even know what’s on it. What you even did. And we’re doing ourselves a disservice as it relates to how we lead to others because we don’t get to see how we can contribute or provide value. I think that’s so important. A Message From Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. 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The Second Pillar of Leadership – Leading Others Jenn DeWall: So your second pillar is all about leading others, which I think might be either the most favorite part of a leadership role or someone’s least favorite part of a leadership role. Nils Vinje: It’s polarizing for sure. Jenn DeWall: How do you start with that? Or like, what are your, I guess what’s your opinion as it relates to how to approach leading others? Nils Vinje: Yeah. So leading others is all about your, and in my framework, I’m talking about it in the context of your team, the people, your organization, the people that you are closest to in your work as a leader. And there are three core areas that are focused on here. Number one is building a connected team, and this is all about creating a team identity. Nobody shows up and gets outta bed every day and shows up to just be part of their boss’s team— insert your boss’s name here. And despite the fact that that’s how a lot of people view their role, oh, I’m just part of Jenn’s team. I’m just part of Nils team. I’m just part of Sam’s team, whoever it is. And it’s a huge opportunity that is missed when you don’t have an identity that this group of people who are coming together shared and helped to create. Nils Vinje: So there’s this bond that can be created there, and you can get tremendous leverage from an engagement perspective, from a trust perspective, from a reporting perspective that is absolutely phenomenal by going through the process to create an identity for this team. And that was some of the secrets behind how I went from an IC to a VP in two and a half years and built high-performing teams along the way I was building those identities as I went. And these incredibly strong bonds everywhere, every team that I interacted with. The second – yeah, go ahead. Building a Team Identity Jenn DeWall: Let’s say I’m more curious, and maybe it’s because of a conversation I had earlier. Let’s say that you were new to an organization, maybe new to a leadership role. Where would you recommend someone even begin to look at developing a team identity? Because that can feel, especially if you’re new and you may not have the expertise within the organization. Maybe you don’t have the confidence yet because we might have that imposter syndrome. So how do you start with building that team identity? Nils Vinje: Well, the best thing is you don’t have to have any of the answers. You just have to have a framework and some tools and some structure, which I, 100%, absolutely can provide. I’ll give you the high level here. And then there’s more details in my book, which got a free copy available, which I’ll share a little bit later. So first up is the components of a team identity. There are three things that are really important. Number one, a clearly defined purpose statement. The purpose of this team is X; whatever team it is, whatever your purpose is, doesn’t really matter. But you fill in the blank purpose of the team is X. I’m gonna tell you how we get to these answers too. In just a sec. The second thing is a set of core values. These are the, that represent how your team commits to going about and fulfilling the purpose. And the third element is a team brand. So this is the name. This is where we get to have some fun and really brings to life the, the type of personalities that are on the team and the type of things that the team likes. And so those three things together, the purpose statement, the core values and the brand represent to me a very strong team identity. And the way we go about this is the best thing is that you, as the leader have, all you have to do is facilitate getting to these answers. You do not have to come up with them yourself. So what we do is work with our teams and provided with the specific agendas and some meetings and some constructive brainstorming time. We pull out all this information, cause guess what? It’s already there. They already know how they work with themselves, how they work with each other, the ways they approach working with other teams, with other companies, et cetera, we just have to pull this out and then get everybody to agree on what the stuff that we 100% stand behind really is. And that’s some of the fun and the step by step process that I work with clients on the B2B leaders academy is how to go about this. I got templates tools, the whole nine yards, so that you can literally set up the meetings and then follow the schedule and come out with a team identity in a relatively short period of time. Jenn DeWall: I love that they can have that. I mean, I think I still think when I think of values and I know they’re so, so important, they act like that compass that we need to shed light on our decision making. But I, the moment of trauma around a company values or team values for me will come from, it’s not trauma. Okay, I’m being dramatic. But earlier on in my career there, I worked for an organization that, you know, they’re going through this values, rebrand. They wanted to change them. I am talking on every single outside cubicle. There was a values, I think, set values. Then they actually had actors that had different outfits representing each of the values. So there were six different actors. And then when it came down to launch it, they had people, they had brought in those actors that they photographed. And they had them come in and take pictures with people. I think they had cookies. I mean, they made this values launch huge. I can’t even imagine how much resources they, and then you go into a meeting and you’re like, I’m sorry, what were, were these our values? So how would you recommend people building that accountability? Because I still have that pain of, or the insert eye roll, tell me your values, but if you don’t follow through it, so how do you recommend to be accountable? Because I think there are leaders that sometimes think check minute. Yep. Nils Vinje: A hundred percent. I, and I, and I appreciate you brought up that story because I’ve experienced the same thing myself. And the first time going through this, I even questioned myself. Like, is this really a point? But the, the way that I was able to get buy-in from my team and to uphold and to drive the accountability was in the shared agreement. So in that situation with your organization, these values were created and then delivered to you through a series of actors and some other stuff that went on, right? Even if you’re running a small team, even if you’re running a big team, doesn’t matter. But when people have an opportunity to shape those values are and when they are specific to them in their circumstances, that automatically changes the engagement level. Number one, number two is after they’re defined and everybody agrees to them, there is a what’s called part of it is a social contract where we agree to hold each other accountable to these values. And it is the leader’s responsibility to kind of push the edge on this, to say that, Hey, in every single meeting, how did we how, what’s an example of how someone lived up to one of our values, how did you use one of our values, excuse me, to make a decision. How would you use a value in this particular situation? So it’s the integration of these values into the day to day life that is gets the most leverage. And that is where oftentimes companies fall down. When they do this at the big company level, they think that rolling it out is the end of the train. And the reality is that’s like barely even the beginning, right? It’s about infusing it into the culture. And that is a responsibility of leaders to constantly talk about it. When they’re giving feedback, give feedback in the context of values, when you’re having team meetings, bring it up. When I was talking about the brand piece, all of these pieces, the purpose, the core values rant, the integration of them into your day to day life with your team is what’s going to make it stick. If it, if you don’t do that, it will be gone in a matter of weeks, it’ll be “poof”. It just like it never existed. However, if you integrate it into your team’s daily operations and weekly operations, it has the chance to flourish into take hold. And that’s really exciting time. So one of my very first teams that I did this with when I became, went from IC to manager. On Friday, I was a peer. On Monday, I was a boss and I, the first thing I wanna do was get the pressure off of me and say, Nope, we’re coming together. We’re gonna form this team. We’re all going to agree to what it means to be here. I just happened to be the leader and was, this was the set of exercise I walked through. And our team name was Team Solid. That was the name. And then our weekly team meeting became the team solid meeting. So it was no longer Nils’s team meeting. It was Team Solid meeting. Now we start building and having some fun with, well, what does Team Solid actually look like? From a visual perspective, we came up with a little icon and things, but this was all organic stuff that came as a result of everybody having buy-in and having a really strong alignment with it because they had buy-in. And by the, you know, I could pick up the phone 10 years later now and call anybody from Team Solid. And it would be right back. Like we were 10 years ago. Jenn DeWall: I love that. And it’s, I think it’s so true that the trust that’s bill, I guess the loyalty that’s built extends beyond the time that the team might be, you know, one whole unit. Oh yeah. You can still feel bonded to those people many years beyond. That’s a great example of the power that they have when you can actually build and integrate that into a team. Yeah. That’s fantastic. Nils Vinje: It’s a hundred percent possible in any environment with any team virtually any situation, you know, it is possible because people wanna be part of something that’s bigger than themselves. And they wanna be part of something that they feel they have a hand in. I mean, think of any point in your life, the things you’ve been most engaged in were probably the things you contributed to in a larger way than some of the others. And bringing that into the work environment, I think is a fantastic idea. And it brings people together and everybody has a shared agreement and then everybody gets to hold each other accountable. Jenn DeWall: Yes. I love that. Get that social contract going. Now I know that I cut you off, because I, I just have my own personal, you know, thing that I had to ask about as it relates to value, but I know that you were going in other directions as it relates to other key things that we need to focus on to be more effective as it relates to leading others. So I’ll let you take it away from there. Cause I know I interrupted you. Driving Team Performance Nils Vinje: Oh no, it was perfect. That was a great, and it was a great point to call out because I get that look a lot. When I talk about values like, oh, here we go with the values thing again. I’m like, oh, this is a slightly different angle than you might have been experienced with before. And it’s, it’s all good. So the second major area in leading others is all about driving team performance. And these are the core foundational things that you have to do as at a really exceptional level to be a great leader. Things like setting expectations, driving accountability, giving feedback, like conceptually simple concepts that a lot of people would probably say are, oh, that’s just common sense. Of course, I know that already Nelson. And the thing about common sense is it’s not so common. And when I drill in, when people tell me, oh yeah, I’m, I’m good at giving feedback. Nils Vinje: And I drill in and I ask questions about, well, how do you give feedback? And how often are you give feedback? And what is the response to the feedback? I find a lot of holes. And so there’s specific tools that I use to help build that and build the repeatability and build the consistency. There was a great Harvard business review did a study, not long ago that asked what do people like the most and want to do the least? And they, people wanted the most was negative feedback or reinfor or corrective feedback. That was what they wanted the most. However, what they wanted, what people wanted to do, the least was give feedback. So the very thing that people want the most is the very thing that nobody wants to do. Jenn DeWall: Like it’s always negative. It wasn’t just feedback in general, they want negative feedback? Nils Vinje: Because they wanted to learn. They wanted to grow. And the thing that people did not want to do was give negative feedback. And it’s, it’s true. I mean, my own personal experience, it was feedback was kind of rare, right? And it was silly. It just didn’t, it wasn’t necessary. And I think the reason for that largely is there have been lots of different, you know, grand scheme feedback formulas and things, the feedback sandwich and all that stuff. Jenn DeWall: That’s happened. We,talked about that. We hate it, please. Don’t do that! Nils Vinje: You can see it coming a mile away, right. It’s just not authentic. And there are ways to do it. That is 100% can be aligned with you. You can feel comfortable. You can do it every single day and your team will absolutely 100% guaranteed appreciate it because it is the thing that everybody wants. Everybody wants to grow in some way. And if you have a formula to follow, then it’s a piece of cake. So that, you know, that feedback piece is a big one. I focus on and conceptually again, so simple, but so, so powerful. And when you get it down to a science where you can just consistently rely on your tools, it’s a piece of cake. Jenn DeWall: Gosh, I feel like I was always looking for negative feedback, but that’s because I’m a hardcore perfectionist. Mm. Tell me what I’m doing wrong because then I’m gonna try and do everything to try and, you know, show that I’m good enough show that I’m valued. And so when I heard that, I was like, that’s a trigger for me, because I used to aspire for that. Like they could be like, you did a really good job. No, but tell me what I, I know. I probably, Nils Vinje: And they were probably looking at you going, are you doing a reverse feedback sandwich Jenn DeWall: On it’s lot? Like people want this, like I want for a form of self-torture. I’m pretty sure. I don’t know why, but that’s so interesting. But yeah, I mean obviously through the different lens, people want to be successful. Like they want to perform for the organization! Nils Vinje: They want to grow! And They can’t. And they can’t, if they don’t know- like nine times out of ten, feedback that is given comes when it’s received, it’s like, oh my gosh, I didn’t even realize I was doing that. Or I didn’t even realize that’s the impact of what I did. Because we’re wrapped up in ourselves all the time. So if you assume that somebody else knows how they acted and how it impacted somebody else, I guarantee almost a hundred percent you’re wrong. And so that’s where this feedback piece becomes so, so important. And the pace of growth, just like you’ve naturally wanted to find, just goes exponentially faster when that feedback is provided. And again, a hallmark of great leadership is giving that feedback to help other people grow. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh, here is my PSA to anyone that is leading remote tea,s. Make sure you’re giving that feedback to those people that you’re not seeing all the time, Nils Vinje: Especially in the remote world. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. People wanna hear it. They want to know. I, I just, I think, and I, I still think of my friend that for six or seven months of the pandemic, she didn’t have one video conversation with her leader, and she was as an individual contributor. And that is just, how do you build culture? How do you build connections? How do you make sheep? For sure. People are executing on deliverables. If you do an out of sight out of mind, I, I get it. I know it’s timely. I know that sometimes it’s difficult. Right? You said it, people don’t like giving it, but there’s so much time saved. When you just give it, Nils Vinje: Is that and, and well, considering that the cost of an employee turning over is one of the greatest costs in any business. It’s gonna pay for itself very, very quickly. I mean, six or seven months without a video connection. I gotta imagine your friends, probably one foot out the door, if not two very quickly. Because emotional ties get cut when I don’t think they, anybody cares about them. Right. And that’s a fastest way to get somebody out the door is just ignore them and that’s what a lot of leaders do. Jenn DeWall: Oh my God. Yes. And it just makes me like sad. It shouldn’t ever feel like in Adele song where someone is calling to say hello, it’s me. I’ve been waiting several months for you to connect with me. Like or whatever that might be like, no one should wait for that. If you’re a leader, you’ve gotta make contact. Nils Vinje: That is a great, great connection to, I’m gonna think of that every time I hear that song now. Jenn DeWall: I don’t even know why I just did that. And that might be the first time I’ve ever actually tried to remotely sing on the podcast. So I’m so sorry to the listeners. If you had to turn down on your podcast here, I love, I’m loving this conversation. Nils, where do we go with the, the third pillar now? So leading others. And I know that you’re, that you had a few more points in there, but I wanna make sure we we’re covering that’s our other pillars. Cause they you’re going to get a free copy of his book. So what is your third pillar? The Third Pillar of Leadership – Leading with Communication Nils Vinje: So the third pillar is called leading with communication. And in this pillar, we’re starting to branch out our communication beyond our immediate team. So this is all about how do you communicate your value and your team’s value to people outside of your, in your immediate organization. So other leaders in the organization and this all starts with the cornerstone, which is how having a framework to be able to talk about your, your team, your values, your accomplishments, everything. And one of the interesting things of why this framework a framework is so important is because it helps you overcome. What’s called the crisis of context. Now it is total human nature. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. What is the crisis of context? It sounds like it should follow with a dun dun dun Nils Vinje: Dun dun, dun. Maybe we need some sound effects. Totally. It is, it is totally natural to believe that other people have the same level of context about a topic as you do, only problem is it couldn’t be further from the truth. Now in a leadership position, you know everything about your team, your organization, the goals you’re working towards, the activities, you’re doing everything. And when you talk with other leaders inside your organization, they don’t have anywhere near the same level of context about your work as you do. So if you talk to them, like you talk to your team, you are missing a of opportunity to connect. And what you say will likely go straight over their head and they will refer to you as having a conversation. But having absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Jenn DeWall: So many people can relate to that right now. I know it. Nils Vinje: Some people refer to this as like, you know, more executive-level communication and whatnot. And I’d say, yeah, that’s fair, but I’m breaking it down simple as possible. Other people do not have the same level context as you when, and if you talk to other people like you do your team and you don’t have a different level to talk with them, then it’s just not gonna work. So a perfect example of a framework, it’s my four pillars of leadership. I created this as a way to connect with anybody and tell my story of how I view leadership. When I was writing my book, that was where this framework came about. All the research I did all looking back at everything I knew about leadership, everything I coached people on for 10 years and I boiled it down into these four pillars. So when I’m meeting with someone like yourself and having a conversation on this podcast, if you rewind, you’ll notice that in the very beginning, I just said the high-level version of the framework. I said there are four pillars leading yourself, leading others, leading with communication and leading with metrics. And then, we were going in and dove into each one of those in more specific detail. But if I, I just started with feedback or if I just started with expectations, if I just started with psychology, you would’ve gotten lost because it would’ve been like, well, these are interesting topics, but how does this all fit together? Do I have to do a million, one-off little things? And I’m saying, no, we just focus on these four major pillars. And then we systematically work through each one of them. So that’s an example of how powerful a framework can be. Jenn DeWall: That’s a fantastic, yeah. I love that example. And I think it’s often an underutilized tool is we’re probably, I’m sure many people going from project to project, task or email to email, whatever that might look like. Yep. And then just not, you know, passively sending things, but not making sure that it’s clear. I mean, in it, I know that we may not like it, but people’s attention span is shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. And so when I, you know, if someone wrote me a full long multi-paragraph email today, it actually would be harder for me to process to understand and distill what the primary, what do you want me to do with this? Yeah. And yet I still get them. Hey, did you follow up on my email? First of all, you didn’t even ask me what you wanted me to do. You just sent me a novel and I don’t know what you want me to do with the novel. Right. When You Communicate – Assume Zero Context Nils Vinje: Right. And that is, that is, that happens all day. Every day, email inbox is clogged with that exact stuff because we make an assumption that other people know what we know. And we go into great length of detail without stopping saying, okay, what level of context does this person actually have about this situation that I need to bring to their attention? And they either have zero context. They have some, or they have all the context, like kind of think of it in three levels like that. And if they have zero context, you can’t go much further than just the very high level pieces. Cuz they’re not gonna understand any anyway. So you might as well start Jenn DeWall: Love that framework. Who is your audience? Do they have, what did you say? Zero context. Nils Vinje: Zero context. Anybody outside your media team assume they have zero context. If they’re an executive at your company, if they’re anybody else in a different department, assume zero. That’s the starting point. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I think that’s such a great thing to say is assume zero. Think about how many I got, how many miscommunication, I guess, issues you could hopefully eradicate by just going there and also not going so technical to the point that someone just, you know, falls asleep on their keyboard or starts to peruse that they actually hear your message and that it’s a good return for both people. Love it. Right. That’s fantastic. Nils Vinje: As soon as you lose somebody in like you talk at too low level of detail or they, they get the sense that they don’t understand what you’re talking about, you’ve lost them and you it’s really, really difficult to get ’em back if you, if you possibly even can. So know that that was that beginning piece, whether it’s email or verbal or phone or zoom, it doesn’t matter that first connection piece of meeting them where they are is incredibly important and oftentimes gets overlooked. And the framework is the ultimate antidote for how to do that effectively. Cuz you be able to communicate with people who have zero context. People have some context and people have all the same context as you. And those are kind of the three levels of framework that I like to think about. Jenn DeWall: Yes. I, I mean, I think that that’s already gonna help me in thinking about things. That’s a really great framework. Thank you for the tool. My Pleasure. Jenn DeWall: So leading with communication, I know you have a few other tips. What would be one other tip that you would provide to leading with communication? Nils Vinje: Just the high-level. The other key foundational pieces here are creating unstoppable presentations. So once you have a framework and you can talk about all the great work and the value that you and your team are delivering is really helpful to be able to package that up in a meaningful presentation that can to your audience, that can take them through a story that can inspire them, whatever the situation is. And because you have to do an effective job of telling your story. And if you can’t tell your story, nobody’s gonna listen and you’re not gonna get approved for initiatives. You’re not gonna have a lot of trouble getting OKRs bought off on, et cetera. So those, there are some tools and some skills like there’s a whole lot more. We don’t have time to get into today. But the third key area in leading with communication is all about what I call marketing or leadership. And here’s the underpinning of this. You doing the work as a leader is not enough. You have to tell a story about your leadership. You have to tell a story about your work. Nobody knows what you do assume that nobody knows what you do. Even if they say they know they don’t assume they know nobody knows what you do. It is your job to effectively market your value, your skills, your team, your success, your failures, successfully market that within the organization and the audience is gonna determine the level of context that you need to communicate at, which is why the framework and the presentations are so important. So it’s kind of like the, you know, encapsulating thing on the leading with communication is ultimately being able to effectively market your leadership. Market Your Own Leadership Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Well, and I think that goes back to even the driving your career piece. Are you the CEO in your career? Do you, are you aware of how you provide value and goodness, if I could just build competence in every single individual that I ran into contact with because leaders don’t always see their values, they get, I guess, for lack of a better description that I can think of off the top of my head is they get bogged down. They feel like they’re sinking in maybe failure or these small mistakes instead of looking at how, how they did contribute, looking at what they did achieve. And I just think that’s so important. And I think it also competes with maybe how some of us have been raised. I know I was raised with the notion that you don’t wanna be too confident because then you’re going to come off as cocky or arrogant, which is extremely offloading. But you’re saying get comfortable with promoting yourself, market your leadership. Yeah. Nils Vinje: Yeah. And it’s, it is not about being cocky. Like there is a difference between confident and cocky and this is one that comes up all the time. People are like, well, how do I, how do I market my leadership and how do I promote myself without tooting my own horn? And without sounding like I’m cocky. And I say, well, it comes back to one, the leadership psychology that you have, number two, finding an appropriate way, using a framework to tell the story of your work, right? So you’re not talking about you, you’re talking about the work that you’ve done and the leadership that you’ve provided and the value of the company through a vehicle of which anybody can understand. This is not just, oh, Jenn did this and Nils did this and Nils did this and Nils did this. No, no, no. It’s about, well, here was a big picture problem in situation that we had, we approached this through the four pillars of leadership pillar 1, 2, 3, 4. Here’s what we did in each one of these pillars. This is how we contributed value to the company. Now all of a sudden people can understand your message and they, it wasn’t about you at all. It was actually the framework was the great vehicle to be able to communicate to them because they didn’t know what you did. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Can I, I wanna get your take on this. Like one of the things that I say with clients is that you have one end of the spectrum is cockiness. The other end of the spectrum is low confidence. If you have been operating with the fact that cockiness is your enemy, the likelihood of you jumping onto the cockiness train overnight or becoming arrogant it from what I see is, is pretty small. Yeah. And so just putting that out there, cause you would really have to work to then get that there. So, I love the tools that you’re sharing with them because give yourself permission to try. Because you’re not all of sudden gonna swing overnight to telling everyone that you lead them from an ivory tower and look down at them. Nils Vinje: That’s right. And even if you’re, you know, don’t have the framework in place yet. That’s okay. Like simple matter of fact is- make it not about you. If you let’s say you ran a project, let’s say a project was wildly successful. Let’s say you led that project. And it led to some wonderful result for the company that added some amount of measurable value. Right? Very generic example here. But instead of saying, I led this project, I got this to this value. I did this. You just simply take yourself out of it and talk about, all right here was the situation that we had. This was a challenge that was recognized. The team came together. We identified some possible solutions. We came up with the best possible scenario based on our understanding. At the time we put together a, you know, implementation plan, we this into action and we achieve this result. That’s an effective way to market your leadership and you never use the word I that’s. Okay. Right. So even if you don’t have a full framework built out, framework’s obviously gonna make it infinitely easier and, and more effective. But even if you don’t have it out, take yourself out the equation. Don’t talk about, I talk about the, the situation, you know, what, how the team came together or how the solution was arrived at and then what the end of end of result was and what the impact was. Jenn DeWall: Yes. That is a fantastic way to just approach it. All you have to do is get into it and just start going or even start with the we, what did we, as the team go, and then you can bring that back. Let’s get into your final pillar. I cannot this, I feel like this is blown by. So your final pillar is. The Fourth Pillar of Leadership – Leading with Metrics Nils Vinje: With metrics. So this is the measurement piece. And as you see, like they, while we can, and with my clients, we do go in different order and sometimes focus on different areas of time, depending on the situation. However, the original construct was that, well, you gotta focus on leading yourself. Then you can effectively lead others. Then you can effectively lead with communication. Then you can effectively lead with metrics. So the measurement piece is critically important, but not at the expense of everything else. And these, the couple key areas and things in here are around driving personal and team performance. And the one takeaway I would share here is a very powerful lesson I learned many years ago from a close friend of mine, was that any activity can get to a yes or no. And that was a game changer for me. So I’m not naturally metrics-driven, but I have learned to adapt and build, bring metrics in so that I could drive my team’s performance when I was in an operational role. And when I’m working with my clients and sharing these tools and tips and helping them to drive performance, because here’s what happens most times, okay. Leader says, Hey, our sales number is down. You need to go fix it. Our retention number is too high or sorry too low. You need to increase it. We need to go from 80% to 90% go do it. And then they say, well, I trust my team. They’re smart. They should figure it out. And that’s the absolute worst thing to do because nobody has any idea what it means that the sales number is down like was that the result of marketing efforts was that result of sales development efforts was that result of close rates, pricing, packaging, 8 billion other possibilities Jenn DeWall: Or a pandemic! Nils Vinje: Global pandemic. Exactly right. But that’s where a lot of metrics get left is they get left at the lagging indicator, high-level things that just do not like inspire action cannot be tied directly to action. You cannot in a day influence that lagging indicator metric. So this pillar is all about learning, how to break down those big lagging indicators into leading indicators, which translate then into activities that you and your team can work with. And you can hold ’em accountable to actually doing things. And the best part is they will know exactly how the work they do on a daily basis influences the leading indicators, which ultimately influences lagging indicators. And so that closes the gap on the measurement piece, which is pervasive across all the business world. Jenn DeWall: And that’s so important. I think that that’s often an overlooked area of development within organizations, not even describing at a simple level, how your organization makes money determines what success looks like. I know we teach a class all around building your business here at cross com, but it’s when I worked at an organization, I remember feeling completely detached. I, and the example that I share as it relates to that is there. I think it was my manager or leader at the time. I didn’t necessarily. They gave, they, you know, came and delegated the task here is said tasks that we want to do. And in my brain with limited information, limited context, I was like, this seems redundant. Why are we doing this? And then fast forward into, I went and I have, I worked for a publicly-traded company. I sat and listened to our quarterly earnings call. My mind was so excited to have an understanding of how that strategy then connected back to me. But yet that took me going in and actually seeking out the information. And I think it’s low hanging fruit for leaders to just have these conversations. I hear how people understand. That’s how they’re making informed decisions. I just love that you’re bringing this up. Nils Vinje: It all, it comes back to the metrics, right? If you know what the metrics are at the high-level, you know, I, I use these levels level 1, 2, 3 in multiple areas, as we’re talking about with framework. And it’s just a great way to just break it down. Right? And, and when you’re communicating metrics about your team, guess what metrics other people who have no context need to know, level one metrics, the highest level, the lagging indicators, they don’t care about the stuff that happens day to day. They’ll never be able to understand it. They don’t understand why they, they don’t need to, but if you’re communicating with your team, you can’t communicate it. Level one metrics, you can’t communicate that our sales numbers are going down because then there’s this huge gap of, well, how does what I do actually impact that outside of the once a quarter measurement that I hear about with that number, it just doesn’t make any sense. So closing the gap is really, really important. It’s kind of at the heart of this entire pillar. Yeah. Jenn DeWall: And it’s a way to drive engagement. I don’t wanna feel disconnected, but it, you know, if I’m just missing information to understand the value and I have all these competing priorities, right? You don’t wanna assume that the employee’s trying to go against it. They might just not see how that connects. Thank you so much for bringing that up to as a point of leading with metrics of why it’s so important to build that interior leadership style Nils I’ve loved our conversation. I, same here, truly loved it. I feel like the energy’s been fun. I don’t know why saying for my first time, but I want people to be able to connect with you. I know you’ve offered to give and provide your book that they can download, but tell, tell me or tell them how they can connect with you? Where to Find Nils and Get a Free Copy of 30 Day Leadership Playbook Nils Vinje: Absolutely. Yeah. So you can get a free copy of the bestselling book, 30 Day leadership playbook, your guide to becoming the leader. You have always wanted to be by going to 30 Day leadership.com/book. And that just submits your name and email, and I’ll send you the book immediately within a few minutes. Either for the information on the B2B leadership podcast or the B2B Leaders Academy, where it go deeper with all these tools and provide access to not only the tools and the content, but also coaching with me, just go to 30dayleadership.com, and you can see the whole menu of services there would love to connect with you. You can always send me an email at nils@30dayleadership.com if you have a specific question. I look forward to connecting in the future. Jenn DeWall: Nils, thank you so much for just sharing your knowledge, expertise, and passion for leadership. This was a great episode, and I know that our listeners will walk away with some tangible takeaways. Nils Vinje: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me on Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit popped cast with Nils Vinje. I loved the conversation. It was so dynamic, and I learned so many different characteristics, tips and techniques that I can try. As you heard in the episode, Nils is offering you a free digital copy of the 30 day leadership playbook. And you can access that by going to 30dayleadership.com/book, or you can find that link in our show notes. Also, you can connect with them there. You can find additional resources. And if you know someone that could benefit from hearing this conversation, don’t forget to share this with them. And of course, if you’re looking for leadership development, we would love to assist you here at Crestcom, we offer a one-year-long comprehensive leadership of development program that is focused on creating more authentic and human-centered leaders. Thank you so much for listening until next time.   The post The Four Pillars of Leadership with Leadership Coach Nils Vinje appeared first on Crestcom International.

Managing Dissenting Opinions to Make Better Decisions with Dr. Tom Tonkin, CEO of The Conservatory Group On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sat down with Dr. Tom Tonkin. Dr. Tonkin considers himself a recovering executive and an aspiring Renaissance man, as an executive in the professional services and software sales arena. Dr. Tonkin has over 30 years of business and technology experience. He is currently serving as the CEO of The Conservatory Group and is the co-founder and Dean of Students at The Sales Conservatory. Join us as Dr. Tonkin and Jenn talk about managing dissenting opinions and making data-informed decisions. Meet Dr. Tom Tonkin, Recovering Executive & Aspiring Renaissance Man Jenn DeWall: Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I am here with Tom Tonkin. We are so excited to be talking about how you can make dissenting opinions so manageable, something maybe easier, something more approachable. So then, you can make more data-informed decisions. I know that they heard a little bit about you on our opening bumper, but Tom, could you go ahead and just introduce yourself to our Crestcom audience? We are so happy to have you on the show today, Dr. Tom Tonkin: Jenn, I really appreciate you taking time here on a snowy day here in Colorado, but we actually both live here. It’s a lot of fun. I, again, my tagline has always been that I am a recovering executive. I have been in what I would call the standard corporate world for probably over 30 years. But as of late, I’ve obviously launched into my own set of businesses from a workplace perspective, and I am learning sales and DEI specialist. So some things that you can go out Google and look for me. And but I, I am like a management consultant within those areas. I have what I would believe is strong academic background. I’ve done a lot of research in these areas as well. And you know, part of the reason is, is that I wanna take what I’ve learned, not only in my professional experience, as well as my academic experience and sort of giving back to the corporate world. I think that’s probably the best way to sum it up as we are here today. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. I’ve well, I, I have the question that I know we talked about this because I love how you identify as a recovering executive. How did you come to maybe that description or identifier of yourself? Dr. Tom Tonkin: I think anybody that has been an executive for ten years is probably chuckling right now. Because they probably said, you know, Tom, good tagline, and I’m gonna take it as well. And you should, you know, if you go and work in large organizations where there’s a lot of internal flux, reorganizations, redirection of resources, and vision, it takes a toll on you just to do the job that you have been hired to do. You know, let alone just, you know, the nine to five thing that people expect. And it got to be a point where it’s like when I left corporate America, I thought I needed a break. I need to go to rehab or something. Jenn DeWall: Is there an Executive rehab? There should be! Dr. Tom Tonkin: There should be! And, and you know, sort of get my mind gear as to what I actually think my value is without a lot of the noise that comes from these large companies. And by the way, I’m not being disparaging in that because I think large-scaled organizations, that’s just, that’s just the game. That’s, that’s, what’s required to move these behemoth organizations forward. However, somebody who, you know, make a lot of decisions, I’m sure you’ve had people here talking about, you know, the idea of decision fatigue. It gets to be a point where that, that rehab really helps when you’re able to step out and say, look, let me not make any decisions for the next few days. And, and just think about what it is that I do for a living and how I can help other people. Jenn DeWall: Oh gosh. I wonder I, what impact that would have if execs, because I know that likely, and, and I’m not trying to in any way, say that other people’s schedules, workloads are not high, but you know, again, you know, executive leadership, it can be a lonely place and yet, you’re highly visible. So there are a lot of different expectations. And so I think, yeah, it’s only natural that decision fatigue takes place. And I don’t think our listeners got in any way that you were just disparaging that. I think we recognize that it’s a challenging role. There’s a lot of weight on your shoulders. And I don’t know. I think there are a lot of executive leaders that are likely feeling maybe even alone, as sometimes I see in leadership or the classes that I teach. They don’t even have of same opportunities to rely on their peers, to ask someone for help, to solve problems. I feel like sometimes that really lies within to figure everything out. And that’s just challenging in and of itself. Like you don’t have that support system that you might need, and maybe they do within their other executive team, but it may not be something that’s as relevant to the role and their day-to-day. How did, yeah. What’s your comment on that? Because I imagine you struggled with that, maybe feeling a little isolated at the top. Or that extra pressure that you put on yourself because you have the title, you have that visibility. Ascending to Leadership Positions Dr. Tom Tonkin: I will say this that probably, well, no, not probably for certain, the hardest job that I ever had as I ascended into an executive role was that line manager job, right? You went from an individual contributor sort of, you know, you’re the person that has the set of tasks and processes you have to execute. And then you become really good at that. And then someone says because you’re good at that. I’m gonna make you a manager of those people, which if you think about it, it’s a non sequitur, right. It’s like that doesn’t make any sense because I would guess about 50% of the behaviors that you need to be, that manager of those people are completely different than what you just did. Right? I am. And again, I, you know, I’m a widget maker, right? I’m gonna make lots and lots of widgets. I’m the best widget maker there is. And so somebody comes along and says, Tom, you’re such a good widget-maker that you now need to manage other widget makers. And I think everybody can recognize that those are different, and there’s no like onboarding of that job. If you’re internal and someone gives you a promotion, no one says, Hey, let’s put you through onboarding. Let’s put you into new hire training. Which by the way, I’m suggesting that people do, because, in essence, that is a new job. Now I would think that anything above that it can become better and you become better at it, but that is such a crucial linchpin of a position that I think that your experience in that position dictates what the rest of your ascension will look like, whether it be difficult or a little easier. Jenn DeWall: Gosh, I think, think that brings up really. There are two things that come to mind as you’re sharing that because you know that our first leadership roles, those ones where we are starting to step up, can be, again, similar to that executive. It can be really isolating. You might, you know, experience a little bit of the imposter syndrome, and many companies and organizations don’t necessarily give you that leadership training. They kind of think that, well, you figured it out for that widget-maker role. And so you can probably figure this one out. And I think so there’s that piece of feeling like you’re maybe not set up for success, but then you also have, and just again, continuing with your story, you also have the widget makers that are fantastic widget makers, and they’re so great. And they have no desire to be a people leader. Exactly. Yet, if you want them to move up, they have to. And I think that’s so interesting, and I don’t have a solution for what organizations could do, but I do wish more organizations could promote people without making them people, leaders and allowing them to shine with the strengths and skills that they have because they may not cross over. And we don’t want to accidentally or inadvertently create awful experiences for the employees just by making that one wrong leadership choice. Dr. Tom Tonkin: Yeah. I, you know, I agree with you because I, I will tell you this, that maybe we don’t have the hardcore definition of a solution, but I will tell you this. We can make it a heck of a lot better than it is today. I’ll give you an example. I worked within the company that for you to get a promotion, a prerequisite was that you manage people. So you’re kind of stuck with, well, that’s the, how do you say that that’s my reward that I’m gonna get. And so, therefore, you know, going up is good. You know, all of them, I would think myths are in their head. That ascension is really what everyone should be doing. And I don’t necessarily believe that. I believe that it’s, it’s the associated value that you bring to the corporation and maybe making the best widgets your company has ever seen is really where you should be. And there’s a whole bunch of ways to reward you outside of just promoting you. Managing Dissenting Opinions—Different Doesn’t Mean They’re Wrong Jenn DeWall: Yes, yes, yes. I love this. We’re sharing our opinions, which I think is a place to start, you know, going into our podcast topic, which is how we can manage those dissenting opinions and make more data-informed decisions. You know, we’re talking about dissenting opinions and I guess from your definition, would you just mean the opinions where we may not all be in agreement? We might be challenging theories. We might be challenging your observation or opinion itself. What would you say that problem might look like in organizations? Dr. Tom Tonkin: Well, I define dissenting opinions as opinions that are different. It’s that simple. And I, all of with executives with a quote that I’m not necessarily who said it I would love to have said it but I use it, which basically says differently isn’t always better, but better is always different. Different isn’t always better, but better is always different. So what do you want? You, you want better? I’m assuming, don’t we all? Well, by definition, it is different. And yet I go to board meetings look across and, and it becomes this battle of homogenous– I can’t even say it– homogenizing ideas, like where can we get to the most is neutral non-boat rocking, right idea. And because we can all get along, but then it’s like, have we really looked around and below and above and outside whether or not that, that particular conclusion, right. It brings us to a better place. And so when I say dissenting opinions, I’m not sitting here, you know, rolling up your sleeves. You’re gonna go, you know, fist to fist with somebody. But I am saying that sometimes people look at something that’s different and connected to it is wrong. We’ve never done it like that before, or I’ve never heard of it like that. Therefore it must be wrong or something we shouldn’t, excuse me. It shouldn’t do. And I think some of the best ideas have come from somebody saying, well, you know, why not? Why can’t we do these things? Why can’t we change ourselves a little bit? Why can’t I do something that’s different? I remember being in a room with a, I’ll leave the names out, but it was a large CPG company. And I was with the CEO and CIO. And I had the CIO in the room, and I was up on the whiteboard trying to explain something. And the entire time he was shaking, he said, no, that’ll never happen. That’ll never happen. No, no. Let you know, lemme give you 18 ways why this can’t happen. And I finally kind of flipped it and said to him, I realize it can’t happen, but what if it could happen. That’s all I said; there’s like this pause in the room. A lot of my peers are looking at me, like, I can’t believe he actually said that. Jenn DeWall: We’re supposed to think that it can’t. We’re supposed to think it can’t. Dr. Tom Tonkin: And then, and then he, and then he goes, I’ll show you. And he gets up on the whiteboard for the next 20 minutes and outlines it’s exactly how this thing could happen. And the CEO looks over and goes, why don’t we just do it like that? And it just opened up this whole new conversation. And, you know, we can dive in the whole discussion around limiting beliefs and, and, and what we bring from that because I think the scenting opinion and limiting beliefs kind of go hand in hand. The reason people dissent is because they have some limiting belief or some idea that that dissenting opinion is wrong or different or unworkable, you know, pick your poison, whatever the word you’re using. And I think if we’re able to govern our limiting beliefs, we might be able to have an opportunity to manage those descending opinions. Jenn DeWall: Okay. I love that. You’re talking about, you know, limiting beliefs as it relates to your team, how you filter that information, how you allow other people to bring diverse perspectives into the room or conversation. You know, what’s interesting is I think I, you know, we’ve done a few different podcast episodes and never once have I heard anyone talk about limiting beliefs as it relates to the opinions of others at work. And I think that that’s such a special correlation because yeah. What I wrote down there, even with your perspective of like a lot of people do think, oh, well, if I’m different, then I might not be getting it right. Or I might be wrong. And so, I don’t want to raise my hand or volunteer my idea just because different means wrong. And I think you deduced it down to a rule that is a limited belief. I love that, Tom! I think that’s so powerful. So just PSA or public service announcement to anyone listening right now. We’re gonna start with that one just because it’s different does not necessarily directly equal wrong. Oh my gosh. Thank you for saying that, Tom. I just appreciate that so much. So let’s dive into it. So, where do leaders get this process wrong? I know we talked a little bit about limiting beliefs, and we might go more into it, but where do leaders get this process of managing dissenting opinions wrong? Dr. Tom Tonkin: Well, I think what happens is, and, and I think it’s baked into corporate hierarchical culture in the sense that when, when, when I am trying to ascend, right, let’s go back, let’s rewind five minutes ago, whatever. Or we’re talking about how ascending into a, into a, a position is good. And so here I am, I’m trying to ascend. And the way I do that is I try to be noticed. I try to, you know, I won’t take credit for everything I possibly can. I’m not suggesting to do anything malicious, but I say, you’re, you’re trying to gain the visibility of your boss to say, you know Jenn is somebody special, right. Then we should take a look at her because I, I kind of see her all the time or she’s, she’s volunteering for really difficult things, has an interesting, a set of opinions. And then you get that right. Then you get promoted. So what do you do as a leader? What, what’s your natural inclination, your natural inclination, as is everybody below you now? Okay. Now, everybody just chill. Because I am now the leader, nobody better be rocking the boat. Nobody changes anything. Nobody goes against my dissenting opinion because I’ve got this. Because I’m gonna go to my next level. I’m gonna shake it up here, but I’m gonna lock it down below. And that’s how I’m gonna move up because I want to have to compete for, you know, minutes, if you will, with, with those that might be able to provide me that visibility that I’m looking for. And again, none of this is malicious. It sounds malicious. And maybe I’m describing it that way, but it’s not in the sense that it is baked into corporate culture. That’s what you need to do as a leader. The Challenges of Decision-Making in Middle Management Dr. Tom Tonkin: I have a great book for everybody. If everybody’s interested, it’s called Leadership BS by a gentleman of Jeffrey Pfeffer. And if you go to Amazon, he’s, he’s a great author. I love him, but I think the title says it where we talk about, like, for example, this idea of humility, right? Oh, you know, if you read the leadership literature, right. Be humble, you know, help others and all this other stuff, I gotta tell you in middle management, that’s not how it works in middle management. It’s, you know, I’m, you know, I am the most humble person in the whole world, right—the dichotomy of trying to stand out because that is how you ascend into an organization. And so there’s, there’s an interesting, fine line between, you know, being a go-getter and all that. And really do, you know, have a helping hand and all. I’m not suggesting that everybody’s like that, but it’s very difficult in those middle ranks. Jenn DeWall: Sure. Well, especially depending on that, that drive, Hey, this is, you know, this is how you, you should show up as a leader here. This is what we want to see, less humility. Right? We don’t care. We want to see your ego. Tell people to do this. I think there are a lot of differences depending on the culture that you’re in. And there are a few different things that even came to mind even thinking about humility because I think, you know, when you talked about promotions, I think, and you talked about this earlier, maybe I’m going back, but even thinking that if you get a promotion yeah. Let’s go through onboarding again. And here’s the thing that I would add to that piece of, well, if we’re gonna do onboarding again, let’s talk about how this team, this small microculture or subculture within the organization, these are the norms, expectations that you want to know, because I think that that’s often a misstep too, is that we don’t get people ready for that new avenue. And I guess I think about this normal place of pain when I received a promotion at, they done so well, working with all these people, they valued dissenting opinions in that culture. They absolutely did. I could ask questions. I kind of try to move the needle. I could ask questions just to be curious. It wasn’t necessarily pushing back, but when I moved into that other department, the other role within this large corporation, well then, you know, to take that book, what got you here is not necessarily going to get you there. I found out my approach to even offering opinions was not respected or appreciated and actually was seen as me trying to undermine strategy. Whereas in the past area, it was actually me trying to understand how the strategy worked, not undermine the strategy. Exactly. I know that was a little bit of a kind of a tangent on that one that what came to mind in terms of that onboarding bridge for me, and just that challenge. So you talk about there are two types of change within a team, within an organization. Let’s talk a little bit more about that type of change that can exist. Change Management— Top-Down or Bottom-Up? Dr. Tom Tonkin: So as anybody who’s might have listened to me before, and maybe your, your listeners are new to me, I always tend to sort of default on sort of a basic theory to give me a model to work off of. And there’s a wonderful book called Cracking the Code of Change by two gentlemen, Nohria and Beer, and what they have done over a 40 year period is to measure all the different changes in project organizational, just throw ’em all a big bucket. And basically, it came to the conclusion that there are only two kinds of changes. There’s an economic change or organizational capability change, economic changes. I, you know, we, we need to be profitable. We need to reduce, you know, cost, excuse me, those kinds of things. Then there’s another change which is capability. We need to make new things. We need to make them better. We need to be more entrepreneurial. And what’s interesting about those two changes is what they came up with was if you go into the research or six dimensions of how you qualify those two changes and the economic changes, kinda a top-down command and control approach, right? Top-down, we all agree on what it is. We’re just gonna tell everybody what to do. And that’s great. Organizational capability, though, is the other way around, just gonna be from the bottom up where you have people in the line management or the people that are in the field having to do those trading that change and pushing that grass movement up. Now, that’s all fine and dandy, but here’s the problem. The problem is, is when you take that first one, that what’s called theory E the economic piece model, and you put it over top of the organizational capability means you’re driving organizational capability from the top down. That’s really why you have these. These change efforts fail. If you go to the number, the number, anybody who listens to this knows this 70% of all first-time change efforts fail. And that’s one of the biggest failures is somebody says, I’m the boss. And you all need to be better at something. To transform, you know, go be somebody innovative and tell me when you’re done. Yes, I’m being a bit facetious, but try to make the point that that doesn’t necessarily work. And so what I always point to is, what kind of leader are you and kind of know, you know, stick to your knitting, right? Know which leader are you a top-down leader? Because by the way, I’m not suggesting that top-down’s bad. I’m, I’m just saying that’s often misused when you’re trying to generate new or is capability, but you have a top-down those leaders that have that perspective, my advice to you would be, how can you motivate and incent and inspire those at the lower levels to take that leap, to create the organizational capability change that you desire that is where you see the successful companies and leaders. Bridging the Gap Between Different Opinions Jenn DeWall: How do you bridge the gap, though? Because  I’m gonna speak as if, you know, I was just in this role where I might be that entry-level employee, maybe I’m even a frontline leader. And I can see the impact of this strategy, in my opinion, is that this may not have been the most L thought out strategy. We may not have the right resources, the right amount of time, whatever that answer might be. How do you bridge that gap between those differing opinions or, like that, will exist may be between the top-down and that bottom-up? How do you what’s that point of, I guess, marriage, where they can see each other? How do you do that? Because I know even from the other perspective, especially if it comes top-down, you may not ever feel comfortable vocalizing or even sharing that. So how do you bridge that gap when there maybe those differences in opinion? Dr. Tom Tonkin: Well, there you have it, I mean, that’s, isn’t this, the theme of our podcast today, right. Is managing those dissenting opinions. That’s another opportunity. I think there are a couple of ways of doing it. Obviously, there has to be fluid communication up to and down the hierarchy. One of the other things that I’ll leave your listeners with is you see these companies go through internal reorganizations, and usually, those internal reorganizations are very vertically oriented people report to. So, and so we’re gonna move this division to that side, very sort of vertically oriented. And yet there’s plenty of evidence that organizational changes at a vertical level really don’t impact the business. That much, what really impacts the business is that horizontal connection. My ability to work with my cross-functional peer at every level, whether I’m an individual contributor all the way to an executive. What can I sort of quote, unquote, reach over the aisle, as they would say in politics and be able to work together. That’s how it moves. And so as a leader, again, now I’m putting these pieces together for you to understand the kind of change that you’re going through economic versus organizational capability, which was, where does the E what the Genesis of each one of those changes is? Number one, number two, as a leader, ensure that your cross-functional communications your horizontal communications are alive and well. And people aren’t stopped from working together because that’s how you’re going to move forward. And it, lastly, of course, is having that fluid communication to sit there and say, you know, like what’s going on in the field, see, this is the problem. And again, it’s inherent in a, in a hierarchy, because think about this. Are Making Decisions From the Balcony? Or the Dance Floor? Dr. Tom Tonkin: It’s just very physically easy to see if I’m here. And this is my, this is the field, and I move up, and I move up, and I move up. I’m getting further and further away from the action, right? I don’t see. And so one would say, well, that’s good. You’re at the, you know, the balcony if you will. And you can see down at the dance floor, but you become disassociated to the dance floor. You’re you don’t hear the people, you, you don’t feel the sweat, you don’t. And so there’s, there’s this idea that you have this third-person view of the external business, and you can’t make those changes, or at least you don’t understand what changes need to be made. And so you need to be at the dance floor level. And of course, as executives, sometimes, you know, you can’t because you’re, you know, running a business or whatever, but down on the floor, the people know you are sweating, they’re dancing. They know to win slow dance. They know when a fast dance, they know who’s a better dancer. You know, I can use all the dance analogies here, but you could see, you could see that the further up you go, you’re just very disassociated. So how can you create an associated view of what’s going on in the field? Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I think that if more organizations, teams, leaders could answer that question. I think people would feel so much more supported, so much more, I guess, engaged. And just knowing that their teams see them, understands those constraints. They understand what song they’re listening to. I love that example of the metaphor. What song are they dancing to? How fast are they dancing? How slow, you know, again, we can think that view of the balcony! Are you disassociated? A Message From Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you.  Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the own- a-franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. You Can’t Just Ignore Dissenting Opinions Jenn DeWall: I wanna move into this because I know we didn’t touch on this yet, but your organization, The Conservatory Group that you founded. And I know we didn’t talk about your past as a musician as, or excuse me, a career as a musician. And I know that there is a lot of experience that brings, or that you bring from that to the conversation that we’re having right now. And one is also in the form of feedback. Could you tell us a little bit about how we can manage dissenting opinions and how we can give feedback in a way? Hey, maybe we can’t, you know, do this. You have a different idea. It doesn’t mean to ignore it doesn’t mean to not address it, but if you’re going to address it, how do you address that if you’re not gonna go forward? How do you do that? Dr. Tom Tonkin: Well, I give feedback? Yeah, well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna paint the picture. So let’s get a sort of a running start to the conversation. So yes, I was a professional musician, and as far as I’m concerned, if it paid any decent money, I probably would still be doing it. But as a professional musician, I went to a music conservatory to learn music, and I learned how to move from it, and I started as a saxophone player. But then moved into being a bass player because I couldn’t get gigs as a saxophone player. And what happened was I moved from someone that played the bass to a bass player, and it’s a nuance. But if you think about it in each of the functions in the business, are you a person that sells or are you a sales professional? Are you somebody that does payroll, or are you a payroll expert? We Need to Get Better at Giving and Receiving Feedback Dr. Tom Tonkin: Right. What is that movement? And that movement comes from the ability to learn, to be self-directed and to accept feedback from not only people but things, situations and circumstances. And I think what happened was my experience in the conservatory where I get feedback all the time, right? Some my, my professors, my studio, teacher, yeah. Everyone had a studio teacher. So the person that kind of knew you think of it as a guidance counselor, if you will, who kind of knew your instrument and was able to help you, it, it was 95% feedback. You did this wrong, and you did that wrong. You should do this. You should do that. Don’t forget this. Don’t forget that. I grew up that way. I was a teenager when I started, and I ended up going in my twenties and you just kind of did that. And when I got to the business world, there’s this barrier to feedback that goes up. Like, it’s a, like, you know, don’t say those things in public. And, you know, I remember sitting in a jazz ensemble and missing a note, like anyone would miss a note and the conductor who’s got, you know, ears like a, you know, like a Doberman would, would go, Hey, Tom, you know, that was a, B flat, not a B, do you know what key we’re in? Do you know? And I’m like, oh, yep, you’re right. I actually knew that I had made that mistake. Won’t happen again, everybody in the room, they know, but everybody in that room said, I coulda hit that B flat the same way everybody knew that they could have made that same mistake the same way. It was nothing to be that way. However, do you imagine sitting in a boardroom and somebody taking a look at Jenn? Yeah. That slide that you had up there with that number. Yeah. That’s wrong. Yeah. You really shouldn’t do that. It’s this other number, everybody. Could you hear what he said to her? Oh my goodness. I could, I should have pulled her aside and, and all this other stuff, but that’s because we have this sort of weird perspective of feedback. Where, so it’s, not the giving the feedback part. It’s the reception of the feedback that is all around. Because like when you play music in a professional jazz ensemble, the status quo is playing it perfectly. It’s not like, Hey, Hey, we only missed two notes. Yay. No, it’s playing it. Perfect. And everyone kind of says, okay, we jobs, you know, you, you hear about session players that play in LA and Nashville for other people’s music. You know, they get paid to play it right the first time. And they don’t. Nobody gets high fives or pats on the back. You just like, like you did your job. I don’t know. You know, thanks for showing up. Here’s your money go in, in, in business. It’s kind of weird. Isn’t it? Where someone says, well, we got close, so close. Yeah. Let’s hi-five. It’s like, now isn’t the idea to get it right. And if we don’t get it right, shouldn’t someone help us get there and tell us it isn’t right. Or tell us what isn’t going. So it’s not so much the feedback as, as much as to the culture or the perspective that somehow you were outed or you were called out or, or something like that, that’s a bad thing. Let me pause there for your reaction. I feel like I spoke too much. Jenn DeWall: No, you think this is great. I love it. You know, I think what comes to mind for me off of that is, you know, I can still think of examples where I think, yeah, everyone absolutely did that. Oh my goodness. Can you hear what just happened? But then also there’s that opposite side of the feedback where, you know, I’m not necessarily feeling bad for that individual getting it, but then I’m also looking person giving the feedback to say, could you have probably said that in a better way? You know, so, and I think that ties into talking about language, which we’re gonna get into because I think, you know, you have to start with the culture. I totally agree with you, Tom. You have to start with paving that culture, creating a culture where people are open to feedback, but then there’s that accountability. You can give feedback, but you also have to take a little bit more time to be intentional about how you deliver that feedback. I think that so often, especially when it comes down to disseminating opinions, there’s so much ego I’m right. You’re wrong. You are stupid. This is why you’re thing blank. And there’s so much emphasis around proving my worthiness proving my rightness that there’s no emphasis or accountability. And you know what, maybe I can describe that or share that in a different way. So I, I, I love this conversation and where it’s going. And I think it’s so important. We have to have the right culture. And we also have to have the right accountability for the leaders that, you know, depending on your culture, don’t get permission to personally attack, to do X, Y, Z, which I’ve observed in many corporate settings. So I don’t wanna pretend that it doesn’t exist. You know who you are. If you may be that person, you have gotta do some self-reflection and think, is this really productive? So let’s dive into that language component, unless you have a response on that one, but talk about the language that we use as it relates to dissenting opinions. Becoming a “Business Anthropologist” Dr. Tom Tonkin: So I’m gonna start with an example of the economy. So how many times have you heard in the news in the press somewhere? And somebody said it’s a good economy, or it’s a bad economy. The economy is not a thing. It’s just, it isn’t a thing, right? The economy isn’t something that has a measurement, and it needs to be ten and not four. There’s no such thing. The economy is how money gets spent and how we all do business. The good and the bad come in from the point of view, just like, just like, if, if, if, if good things are happening to me, I’m gonna say the economy is good. If bad things are happening to me, I’m gonna say the economy is bad. Irrelevant what actually might be happening out there. Number one, number two, let’s then move closer to the business. Change is always a good one. It’s a bad change. It’s a good change. Okay. Once again, who says it’s a good change? Well, it’s the people that benefit from the change. The bad change is the people that don’t benefit from the change. And so I think one of the ways is to govern ourselves a little more and start thinking about the qualifiers, good, bad up, down, big, small, right? That we put on to other things in the business. And I hear that language all the time, these qualifying languages, which I’ll tell you from my perspective, cuz I, I consider myself when I’m doing work with executives, I consider myself a business anthropologist, right? Oh, somebody that like dives in and kind of like, like the Indiana Jones of business, right. I’m looking around, and I see the jewels, and I’m trying to figure out how the little gold man got here, right. And, and it, and it’s very, very interesting. There’s a great, great story. I wanna share with your listeners. One of my academic heroes, Edgar Schein, went to a large organization of a large organization in Switzerland. And the problem was that no one was collaborative. He’s like, we need to be more collaborative. I don’t understand it. So he says, I want you to fly in here, and we’re gonna talk about how we can be more collaborative. So he says, it comes down, he sits down, he’s in the lobby. He looks around, and it’s a beautiful lobby. The receptionist says, you know, so, and so’s ready to see you. He then gets up. They open this big wooden door, and there’s this long hallway with every single door of this hallway until offices closed. And then there are little lights above each of the doorways one and, and some lights were red, some lights were green, and some lights were turned off, and they’re just walking down this hallway and Edgar kind of leans over to of the receptionist and says, can you tell me about these lights? And he goes, oh sure. Red means someone’s in the room, but you don’t disturb them. And you can’t knock. Green means they’re in there, but you have to knock before you go in. And when it’s not on, it means that nobody’s in the office, but all the doors are closed. And he says, I think I know what the problem is. When I look at these kinds of businesses, that, that anthropological look when I am across from the CEO and the CEO says to me- true story- you know, my people aren’t motivated. You know, they don’t wanna change anything. As a matter of fact, every time we have a team meeting on Fridays, everybody sits in the same chair. And I’m going, okay. What’d you do about it? And he said, what do you mean? What’d I do about it? I’m like, what seems like it bothers you? What did you do? And he’s like, I didn’t do anything. So you just kept doing what you kept doing yourself. You basically telegraphed that status quo, and not doing anything is what everybody should do. So everybody’s following your lead. So you’re talking about language, good, bad, up, down. Closed-door, red light. Don’t do anything, right? These are all giving off signals that create your cultural norms, and you don’t even know it again. I’m not being disparaging. I’m just saying this is human nature. And when you watch it in full display, it’s phenomenal to see not only the problem but how easy it is to fix. Decision-Making and Leadership Constraints Jenn DeWall: I love talking about— did you do anything about it? No. You know, because I think it’s so it’s obvious it’s so easy to complain about anything and not do anything about it. I probably did it two hours ago. Right? There’s yeah. True. That is human nature. And so yes, to reinforce, we’re not judging you. We’re not saying it’s bad, but we are saying maybe there’s a little bit more opportunity to put on your own anthropological hat and say what could really be going on. So I wanna talk about that because why don’t we say something? What are today’s leadership constraints that can make it more challenging for leaders? Dr. Tom Tonkin: Well, I think there are three that come to mind that I think will sum up pretty much what we’ve been talking about. I think the first one is sort of this, this lack of self-assurance. Are you comfortable or uncomfortable with consequences? So make a, you make, when I, and now I’m going make this language on purpose. You make a bad decision. Remember I told you that decisions aren’t bad. That’s the qualifier. Jenn DeWall: Just your point of view, which I think should help everyone. Dr. Tom Tonkin: Exactly. Jenn DeWall: Right. They are just a point of view. We, you know, there has to be more research to understand whether they’re bad or good. And it’s just someone’s point of view. Anticipated Change— The Good, The Bad and the Unexpected Dr. Tom Tonkin: Yeah. So then you go, you make this bad decision. You made a decision that didn’t get to the outcome you wanted to come; therefore, you qualify it as bad. Are you comfortable with that consequence to be able to say, oh, I screwed up? I need to make decisions. As a matter of fact, I screwed up, but you need to help me fix it. Are you comfortable with that interaction? And does your culture allow for that? That’s one thing. And I’m gonna suggest that that’s a big thing. The second one is this idea of personal values. What I like to do is, is I like to pre-think decisions. I like when I visualize there’s a great video for everyone out there about visualization with Michael Phelps, Michael Phelps, does more swimming in his head than in the pool. And for example, he does this visualization exercise. His coach taught him to think about— what happens if your swim trunks rip when you’re swimming? What do you do? Pre-think that decision. Pre-think all the things that could go wrong all the single time. So when you then jump in the pool, nothing will be a surprise to you. Not only won’t it be a surprise to you, you actually have a solution for it. Jenn DeWall: What can I ask a question? Sure. What if you have a tendency, because I see this in my coaching world where sometimes people can be great at visioning or, you know, you can call it scenario planning, but what happens when you just always think that every single thing is gonna go wrong instead of thinking, but what if you know my swim, my swimsuit doesn’t rip. What if I do this? Like, I’m just curious what you say, like how you would respond to that. Because I think some people listening might be like, okay, well, let me make sure that I’m anticipating every worst possible outcome. And then, all of a sudden, you feel more stressed, burned out, disengaged. How would you approach that? Dr. Tom Tonkin: Yeah. So let, let me give your listener something to jot down to help them out. Basically, there are three types of change that can occur at any time. There’s what’s called anticipated change. It’s gonna go, like, I think it’s gonna go, there’s emergent change. It’s something’s gonna show up that I don’t wanna have to happen, and there’s opportunistic change, which is so something that I didn’t expect to happen, but actually was good. So what I like to do is, so those are the three things that you can have in your visualization. When people are visualizing it, make sure you fill all three buckets, visualize anticipated things, visualize emergent things or things that are anticipated, but not what you wanna have to happen and opportunistic not anticipated, but actually a welcomed sight. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I love that. And thank you for saying that, because again, I just hear that all the time. I’m like, well, well heck what? Of course, you’re not feeling enthusiastic or energized. You think that the world is gonna completely fall apart in the next week. Yeah. That would make me not wanna get outta bed. So I love that! Dr. Tom Tonkin: Right? So you’re, so you’re, you know, you’ve got two little buckets and opportunistic, and you know, and anticipated, and you’ve got this big emergent bucket. Right. Unfortunately, that’s a very human quality, but I think it would be healthy if people would go that in a cognitive way and just make sure that all buckets are filled. Jenn DeWall: I love that. So let’s yeah. Let’s go back. Sorry that I interrupted you. I just wanted to ask that. How do you, so let’s go back to talking about personal values and pre-thinking the decision. So you were talking about Michael Phelps’s example envisioning. Personal Values and Regrets Dr. Tom Tonkin: Yeah, there, there’s also the other thing that I wanna bring up around personal values around regrets. Now there’s a great book. That’s gonna come out by Dan Pink about regrets. And I look forward to it’s it’s, it’s not out yet. Great authors as everyone, probably on your podcast as listened to, but I have talked, I’ve thought about regrets in the past. And regrets- part of the reason that we have regrets is that we are looking backward with today’s values. So that Friday night in college, when you thought that, you know, having 18 beers was a really good idea, and then getting sick. Well, that night, it was a good idea for whatever reason, you know, maybe even the next day, you regret doing that, but you’re now regretting it with a set of values that are today. And so that’s why personal values as a whole, it’s very important for you to be in tune with those. And, I regret a ton of things that I’ve done in my past, but because I am using my values of today that have matured over time. And I look back because some of those decisions I made at the time, you know, seem like a good idea because those were my values back then. So personal values were a very important issue with leadership constraints. And that’s why when I’m when I think about people making those decisions, you know, what are you, what are you looking around? What are the value systems that you have? Sometimes people are going— well, I need to keep my job. I’m making the popular decision, even though it’s not the right decision. Well, if you have a personal set of values, that’s like a slap you in the face. And it’s something that ten years from now, you’re gonna look back and go. I compromised my values. So I think, I think that’s one. And then last, last one, because I have three of these ideas of these leadership constraints is this idea of lack of empowerment. Now, lack of empowerment, if any, didn’t hear me. So lack of empowerment is one of those mushy business terms. Hey, let’s all be empowered, right? I put a little fine point to it. I say empowerment comes with authority and resources. So, and I’m not talking about massive authority. I’m talking about you have a job, Jenn. And if I want to empower you, let’s say, I’m your boss. I need to give you the authority to do it. And I need to give you the resources to do it, in that little cocoon. And I think sometimes when a leader says, I want this to happen, but they don’t empower their people, i.e., resources and authority to get it done. Now you have this sort of artificial leadership constraint. You’re asking people to do this thing with both hands tied behind their back. Yeah. And so I think you have to understand what that empowerment means. It’s not, this shouldn’t be a bullet in your QBR at the end of the quarter to your stockholders, right. It has to be something that actually is out in the field and people can touch and feel and, and be able to act on. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Making sure that people actually can have autonomy over a decision. Or I love that the description of you’re giving people essentially a task to do with both of their hands tied. How are you setting your leaders up for success, including yourself. Exactly. Maybe you need to ask for more autonomy or more responsibility, because I think one piece of that too, is, you know, us advocating for ourselves and learning how to advocate to say, this is what I need. Can you help me instead of saying, well, I guess they didn’t give it to me. So I guess I can’t do it. Not sure why, where I just led it to that tangent, but yeah. I I’ve loved our conversation, you know, so much, I mean, again, the, one of the takeaways that will stick with me is just because a different it’s different doesn’t mean that it’s wrong. And then I also being mindful of those qualifiers. You can say something is good or bad, but as a matter of fact, it’s likely just a point of view, unless you have data that you can benchmark against a strategy or an expected result to actually say, yeah, this was less-than, where we went. And I think a lot of people missed the boat on actually even assessing that. Or they might look at a top-level revenue instead of looking at maybe a strategy and how that contributed to the revenue. And I think there’s the missed opportunities, Tom. I know I want to invite you back because I think you’re just an excellent, like wealth of knowledge. But I, I want people to be able to get in touch with you and know that we’re coming down on time. How can people connect with you? I know I’m gonna add and talk about one of your assessments in the bumpers, but I want them to hear about that from you first. How can they get in touch with you? Where to Find Dr. Tonkin Dr. Tom Tonkin: Yeah, so, so I am all about lowering the barrier of entry to talk to me. I am the, on the other half of the hill of my career. And there is an aspect of me that wants to leave a legacy. And if that legacy is a two-minute phone call that I can tell somebody something from my past- let’s do it. If anybody knows how to use the application Boxer, which is kind of a fancy asynchronous-synchronous voicemail, text messaging thing, very, very cool free at Dr. Tom Tonkin, Dr. Tom Tonkin, box me, I’ve had plenty people do that where they just say, I have one question about something you said on a podcast, and it’d be great. Second. Obviously, there are plenty of places. My party trick Jenn is that if you go to Google and type in Tom-space-Tonkin, I’m on the first page of Google. And not that I’m famous or anything is that I think I understand how the Google algorithm works. And so that’s a little bit of a party trick. Hey, I, I did that by the way at a cashier, I had, Hey, you got your cell phone. Why don’t you type in any way, a long story, but it was funny. So, and then so yeah, please connect on Twitter, LinkedIn. It’d be hard to miss me. And then lastly, I wanna leave something for your listeners. I talked a little bit about self-direction and self-directed learning, and the ability to be more autonomous in your way. We actually have an assessment, one that I personally researched and created, and in the show notes, there’s a link to it. It’s an obscure URL because it’s not really out yet. It’s gonna be for, for a fee but for you and your listeners, and it’ll be for free. So go head out to the show notes to click on the link. You may be surprised what you find out a little bit about yourself and your own self-direction Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh, Tom, thank you so much for that special offer for our audience. And again, thank you so much for sharing your time, your expertise, all of those nuggets that you just shared with us. It was great to have you on the show. Dr. Tom Tonkin: Thank you, Jenn. I look forward to doing it again. Check Out Dr. Tonkin’s Free (For Now) Leadership Assessment! Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Dr. Tonkin. If you want to connect with him or learn more, you can actually call him on Boxer. That’s an app. You can call him on Boxer under Dr. Tom Tonkin, or you can connect with him on LinkedIn. Also, if you want to, they’re offering right now a limited time, a DLI assessment for free. So you can follow the link in our show notes, and that will take you to access that assessment. And of course, if you enjoyed this podcast, share it with other leaders to help them grow.   The post Managing Dissenting Opinions to Make Better Decisions with Dr. Tom Tonkin, CEO of The Conservatory Group appeared first on Crestcom International.

On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, Jenn sits down with Chris Castillo to talk all about addressing recurring patterns that are sabotaging your success. Chris is the founder of Empowered Achievers, where she works as a career clarity coach, helping millennials build professional lives in small businesses that fulfill their true calling—originally coming from the corporate advertising industry, where she worked with clients like Google, YouTube, and Expedia. She traded in the agency life for the world of talent development and culture. She ultimately created her own company Empowered Achievers. When she realized her deepest calling was to help others find their calling, as well as to transition into a life of fulfillment, doing the work that they love. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Chris as we talk all about how we can address those recurring power patterns that are sabotaging your success. Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. I’m so happy to be joined with Chris Castillo. Chris, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk to our audience all about how we can address those recurring patterns that are sabotaging our success. But before we go there, Chris, would you please just tell us a little bit about yourself? Meet Chris Castillo, Career Clarity Coach Chris Castillo: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. My background is I’m Chris Castillo. I’m the founder of Empowered Achievers, as you mentioned. And I started my business because I’ve been in the same place that a majority of folks are when they come to me. So I’m a career clarity coach. I primarily work with people who are trying to figure out what it is that they want to do within their career. And in my experience, I am an ex ad agency. So I originally worked kind of like at my peak at an ad agency in San Francisco on the Google account. They were my main account and ran all of their mobile media advertising. And it was very much one of the things that was like a perfect career on paper. I had studied marketing in college, so it seemed kind of like a natural fit. And a few years into working in advertising, I started to have the feeling of, I don’t know if this is actually what I want to do or if I’m just doing it because it seemed like the logical next step from undergrad. And I didn’t know what else to do. And so, finding out that you’ve fallen into your career is not a particularly good feeling. And when I went through it, it was very scary and very isolating. And you think you’re the only one. And so, I started Empowered Achievers in 2016 to help people through that trip. Same transition because when I went through it, it was a little messy, and it took some time for me to figure out what it was that I wanted to do. And my goal is to help make that process easier and smoother for every single one of my clients. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Well, your role is so important today. We obviously, I mean, all the data is there. We know people are leaving, organizations are looking for something, you know, maybe greater more diversity and the opportunities, opportunities for growth, whatever that might be. I’m just so glad that you’re a resource and an asset for someone to have. And, you know, I relate to that. I just, I think as you said, and so many people can relate to that, finding yourself in a career and being like, how did I get here? How did I? Am I happy? Am I just staying here? Cause I really, you know, it’s comfortable. And I think, and we’re talking about, you know, recurring patterns, I’m sure we’ll get into it, but so many people just stay because it’s comfortable. Oh, I’m curious. Are you seeing more people now too? Just cause they’re like, I need to leave. Or like, what are you seeing now as a result of the pandemics impact and kind of this “big quit”? Chris Castillo: Yeah. So totally to your point, staying, cuz you’re comfortable, not that compelling of a reason. But I think when it comes to the last two years, it’s been a super interesting time in the career coaching space because, yes, in my experience, we’ve seen a total shift. My hypothesis, whether it’s true or not—but my theory is that because of the pandemic, a lot of people had all of those additional things that were keeping them satisfied with their job moved away. And then they had to just concentrate on the work and ask whether they liked it. So they left the office, and maybe they were working from home, and they didn’t have the happy hours or the cool perks or the snacks or the coworkers who they really love. Or whatever else, a myriad of things we’re keeping them engaged and excited about their role. And so, at the end of the day, they were stuck just sitting at home, doing the work. And a lot of these people, I think, started scratching their head and saying, Ooh, is this, is this work even exciting to me? And so it’s definitely been an interesting time in this space to see, you know, the fallout of that. Let’s say. Jenn DeWall: I love that perspective. And it seems obvious when you say it, and I’m sure someone’s like, Jenn, you could have known better, but no, really you don’t, you kind of forget about those other things that do your work have meaning. Like I love my colleagues. I love being able to come in and say hi to everyone or hear what they’re doing. And it’s just harder to do in this virtual or hybrid world where people aren’t working the same hours, and you’re right, a lot of those things that added so much joy, you know, they, they just look different today. Chris Castillo: Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. And when they are stripped away, you’re left with just the work, and it’s, and it’s a lot harder to, to stifle the doubts you might be having. What Are Recurring Patterns? Jenn DeWall: So this isn’t the podcast topic, but as a reminder, think about ways that you can engage your people because they may have lost out on some of those social connections that will be important to keep them that’s our, our PSA, to anyone that’s wanting to change to keep them. But of course, we know, and I know that this is true for you too. If you’re not happy, we know that you’re probably not producing the best for the organization or the team. And so it’s okay to leave. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> but that’s not where we’re talking. I love the topic that we’re gonna go with. We’re gonna talk about recurring patterns. Okay. So—  recurring patterns that are sabotaging our success. Chris, let’s, let’s kick it off. What are recurring patterns? Chris Castillo: Yeah. So the way I always explain it is the things that just keep happening and happening and happening. And you can’t quite explain why. Right? So oftentimes, when that’s the case, sometimes we might be the common thread, unfortunately. As, as uncomfortable as that is, know it. But I think the way that I can kind of explain it is it’s that current gap between ideal versus reality. So I keep wanting, I keep saying that I want a to happen, but B keeps happening instead. What the heck is that about? Those are the kind of when we talk about recurring patterns. That’s what we mean. The things that keep happening, the things that keep leading you down the path that you say you don’t want, but for some reason, it’s the path you’re walking down anyways. Common Recurring Patterns That Are Sabotaging Your Success Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. So let’s talk about what those are. So what are some examples of recurring patterns? I mean, I can probably see the one from me of just, you know, being indifferent or just going with the flow, but from your expertise, what do you see most with your clients? Chris Castillo: Yeah, so I particularly work with people who identify as I like high achievers. And so those high achievers tend to be the people who have always been, you know, if I want something to get done, I go to you, people on the team, and they’re used to hearing that. And so one that’s really common for them is I have to do all of the things, the feeling like I need to prove myself as an employee because any doubt that I might feel about that I need to cover that up by just working 10 X, as hard as everyone else. So they end up being into the office at those, maybe not so wanted hours. So like, that’s something that we often see as a recurring pattern that we need to address. This perfectionism and choices of like, I have to make the right choice, that extreme pressure. We often see occurring patterns come up as, as the “should” people think about their career so that when people say the only way to be successful is X, Y, and Z. Like, those are all what I would explain or what I would kind of identify as recurring patterns with clients because these are the things that logically we know better than. And we think we kind of conceptually can say, I know this isn’t true, but we’re going through each day acting as if it is true. Does that clarify? Jenn DeWall: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. No, I mean, I think it rings true, like from that perfectionist standpoint, I think, you know, you probably have heard that expression, right? The recovering perfectionist is one of the recurring patterns that still shows up that I have to combat and just say, okay, it’s okay, done is better than perfect. You’re going to make mistakes. And so I love just shedding light on it. And also, from that leadership perspective, I know at Crestcom, you know, we teach leadership development. And so often in the classes, you just hear leaders feeling like I have to do it all. I have to do it all. And then it’s like, they keep piling on all of it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and it’s like weights on them where they’re just sinking and sinking mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I love that you help people highlight these, but you had said it earlier, sometimes people don’t know they don’t have that self-awareness. So how do you even begin to maybe identify these patterns? How do you help people, I guess, grow their own self-awareness? They might hear perfectionism when you say it, but how do you notice it? Perfectionism— Ideals vs. Reality Chris Castillo: Yeah, yeah, totally. And it can be, it can be tricky. So I think that’s a very fair question. I mean, when I work with clients, we’ll often start by going through all kinds of exercises to look at how do I think about work and what are the challenge challenges that I face? One of the things we’ll talk about is those, we, as we mentioned, the gaps between ideal versus reality. So what are the things you keep saying you wanna do that aren’t happening, and what’s happening instead? And what’s between those things. So it, for example, if I keep saying, I want to leave my job at a reasonable hour and every single time I start a new job, I say, you know, know what this time’s gonna be different. I’m gonna leave at 5:00 PM on Tuesday, and it’s gonna be great. And then, two weeks in, all of a sudden, it’s 9:00 PM, and you don’t know how it happened. That would be an example of a gap between ideal versus reality what you keep saying versus what you’re actually doing. And so those are the things where we have to work on the patterns. And that to me is, I think like the, probably the easiest, most simple exercise you can do to say, Hey, where are my gaps? Where are the patterns that are maybe not serving me in the way I’d like them to? That’s typically a really good place to start. Jenn DeWall: My gosh, I love that because I think that’s an easy point. Like if you’re listening to this as a leader, what is your ideal? What do you want that to look like? Whether it is within your specific job functions or even what you would want your relationship with your team to be like, mm-hmm <affirmative>, what is that ideal? And what’s your reality? And what’s holding you back from getting there. And I, I think from that leadership space, you know, you had talked about those recurrent patterns of perfectionism feeling like you have to do all of the things or get them all right. Or have of the answers or feeling like no one else can do it but me. And, yet I want people to be competent, but yet I’m not giving them the opportunities to learn. And I’m just saying this for some of the people that still might be. Am I doing this well? Chris Castillo: Yes. A 100 percent! And it is, it’s like, it’s exactly like that. It’s like a cycle, right? Because it’s the thing that, you know, better then, right. Con again, at a conceptual level, you can say, like, I know that it’s probably not good for me to think that I’m the only person who can get X, Y, and Z done on my team and that I can’t rely on people. And yet you just keep doing it. That’s how we know it’s a pattern. And so yes, giving someone that exercise, because it is very, very hard to step out and identify with them within yourself. And I think a kind of bonus add-on for that is you can always ask people who know you really well. So like, if you have a partner, a good friend, a manager whom you’ve worked with for years or a mentor, someone who knows you super well, they can also sometimes help clue you in with, Hey, are we seeing a gap of, I keep saying, I want A, but B happens instead. Those people can also sometimes help clue you into those things. If you’re feeling particularly stuck and unsure about what they might be. You Have to be Ready to Recognize Patterns and Own Them Jenn DeWall: Do you ever notice that people are aware of it? And I mean, you talked about this example with, I’m gonna start this new job, and I’m, you know, I’m, I’m gonna work reasonable hours. I’ll be out at five o’clock or whatever that might be every day. But do you ever just notice people being still resistant? Like they might first hear that it’s an issue but really resistant to owning it. Being like, that’s still not me. There’s still something else that’s happening out there. Chris Castillo: Oh yeah. A hundred percent. It’s, it’s always, it’s always much nicer too, instead of looking at what can I do about it? It always feels, feels a lot comfier to be like, who else is making this happen to me? So, yeah. That’s, that’s super normal. I think it’s important to know that, when it comes to this thing, our resistance to looking at it, you’re not ready to do it until you’re ready. And that sounds like a silly statement, but I think it’s a really important one to take in. When you think about it until you’re ready to actually deal with these patterns, you’re gonna just keep repeating them, repeating them, repeating them. And that’s okay. Like I’ve, I’ve, I’ve had folks at the end of this work say, oh my gosh, I can’t believe I waited, you know, 30 something years to figure this out. I’m like, well, aren’t you glad you figured it out now instead of, you know, waiting for 30 more, and there’s no right timeline. Like you’ll, you’ll be ready to confront it when you’re ready to confront it. But yeah, it can be scary, and people can be resistant. You are looking at it at first because it’s not particularly a comfortable or fun thing to do. <Laugh>. Jenn DeWall: No. Well, and I think, and maybe I’m thinking about an example because I’ve worked with people that maybe have that victim mentality. The world is against me. Everything is happening to me. And so, you know, they, again, don’t even have that ability to maybe they see a little bit of how they could be contributing to that, but yet they still want to blame. They wanna say it’s someone else’s fault, or they just want to assume that they have no power. So they’re playing that role of like that victim. And so that’s where that came from, probably because I can just think of that example. The person I wish could hear that. Being At-Cause vs. At-Effect Chris Castillo: You are spot on. I actually had a team lead years ago who explained this concept of being at cause versus being at effect. And the way we were trained on this was you can either be a cause of acknowledging your cause within a situation or at effect, meaning in two situations. So just like that person you’re explaining, maybe you go into a performance review expecting a promotion, and you don’t get the promotion. The at-cause person would say or let’s use at-effect. First, the at-effect person might say, oh my gosh, I didn’t get the promotion. My manager said that I didn’t have enough management experience to start leading people. Isn’t that awful. And then the conversation ends there. The at cause people say, oh my gosh, I went in, I didn’t get this promotion because my manager said I don’t have enough experience managing people. And I guess I didn’t either take on enough projects or take on enough things to show them that even though I haven’t managed people directly, I have the experience that could be applicable to stepping into that role. Right? And so it’s such a slight difference, but a very important one. So to your point, when we’re in that victim mentality of like, well, I guess my hands are tied, it’s not a very empowering place to be. And so that’s, I think, an important distinction that just kind of helps to visualize it that way for me, at least. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. So, and I lo I just love that simple tool. So here it goes to everyone listening. Maybe this is your opportunity to ask yourself if there’s a situation where it’s not bringing you joy. Are you responding in an at cause or an at effect? I love that, Chris. So we talked. We’re obviously talking about self-awareness. How are we showing up? So do you begin to identify your own patterns? Is it really just thinking specifically with the ideal versus the reality, or do you have other tips and techniques that you would maybe reference to help someone get started? Chris Castillo: Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s the easiest way for like a quick approach to this, so typically this is something that I spend weeks and weeks with clients on. We go through a bunch of things, talking about what they’ve seen in roles in the past. Often when I do this with clients, we’re talking about it in the context of what do I wanna do within my career. And so, a lot of the time we spend focused on the pressures of what I think my career should be and the expectations and all of those things. And they often lead us into some certain patterns of, I only look at jobs that, you know, align with whatever it is that I was told was a good career or anything else in that vein. And so, yeah, this is something that I’ll often spend weeks with clients on, but I think in terms of the short version, for people who are listening to this podcast, if they wanna start to say, Hey, what are the patterns in my career that are maybe not as useful to me as I think they are ideal versus reality gap is often a good spot to start. How Do Recurring Patterns Start? Jenn DeWall: Yeah. I love that. You mentioned, like, as you were just sharing a lot of different things that people might experience or reservations that they might have, how do you think some of these recurring thought patterns started for people? Chris Castillo: Yeah. So, for the most part, a lot of these things stem back from things that we’ve heard and then accumulated proof of. Right. So, for example, if you grew up being told often, like be sure you’re making the right choice, is that a good decision? You know, whatever else, things you’ve likely deduced that there are right and wrong choices. And then you’ve probably developed a lot of black and white thinking, and extreme pressure of there is a right choice, and there is the wrong choice. So I better make the right choice, and pressure, pressure, pressure often leads to overanalyzing and inaction. And so it’s the things that we’ve heard that have then kind of like fodder’s been given to them over time. Another example I would use, which is like a silly one, but I think is kind of help can illustrate how this happened, is the tooth fairy. So if you were a kid and you were told that the tooth fairy is going to come to collect your teeth when you lose them and leave something under your pillow. You are told that that that’s a true thing. You hear it from someone. And then everything you see is going to affirm that this is true. So I put my pillow under the, or I put my tooth under the pillow, and it’s gone the next day. There’s a quarter there or whatever. That affirms to me that this is right or my door was left open, and I put it, you know, closed when I went to bed or something like that. Right. So it’s kind of like things that we’ve heard over time that then get affirmed based on- what is it? Affirmation bias? That’s not the word- Jenn DeWall: Confirmation bias! Absolutely confirmation bias. There we go. <Laugh> I mean, I can absolutely see that. I think when I think about even how patterns started for me because this is hard and we talked about going back to childhood that the lessons start there, they absolutely do. You may, whatever that environment might look like. But I also noticed that even though I would save that, I had relatively high self-awareness. What I didn’t realize is that my first, I’m gonna call it, my five to eight years of post-undergraduate career. I don’t even think I realized that the feedback and how I was processing that feedback and applying it to myself was actually creating new patterns. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> or just a new you ways of like, you’re never making the mark, Jenn. You’re always “too this”, you’re just “too that”, like mm-hmm <affirmative> and then it kind of started this need to be perfect. You have to make sure that you’re always, you know, everyone in the room likes you mm-hmm <affirmative>, or if you are assertive, then you know that people won’t like you. So make sure that you, you know, sit back and smile and be not. And then it just starts. And I feel like it perpetuates like, oh, well then in a meeting, I can’t be my ideal self. Like, because in reality, I was told that that was not okay. And so that’s what I think about in terms of even my early years. Because I pick, I picked up so much, let’s call it career baggage as it relates to recurring patterns, those situations. Chris Castillo: Totally. No, I think, I think you are spot on it’s it’s not all in your childhood. It’s just the little seeds that get planted whenever they get planted. And then, over time, they grow and grow and grow. Cuz you keep saying, Hey yeah. Remember when someone told me that my personality was a little bit too much. Well, this experience also affirms that my personality is indeed too much, so I better listen to that advice. So yeah, it can happen at any point. Jenn DeWall: Which, and maybe, and I know this is a little off-topic, but it’s, I’m curious what you would say is let’s say I got a piece of feedback and how do you discern feedback may be to say, should I apply this to myself? Or should, would I say, Hey, that was great feedback, but I’m actually not going to take that on. I know that’s off, off-script enough where we were gonna go, but it, I think it’s also helpful in understanding that you can choose to stop that before it comes in and becomes a pattern. Chris Castillo: Yeah, definitely. I, I mean, I think it’s a, a great question. And I, I guess my kind of quick answer on that is I feel like a lot of that comes with self-awareness and confidence and time, and that’s something that can be built, and it can be developed. But I think part of that like I know at least in my experience, I think for many years I was very beholden to other people’s opinions and how are people gonna respond to this? And, oh my gosh, if I, you know, before I started my business, I had to confront my own head trash which showed up as a pattern of, I keep saying, I wanna start my business, but I never do. Well, that pattern was based on some head trash of, oh my gosh, this would be so what if I, what if I fail and everyone sees and wouldn’t that be the most devastating, embarrassing thing ever. And so I think, you know, for many years I was very concerned about other people’s opinions, but part of that just came with time and experience and also pushing myself outside of that comfort zone enough to, you know, the first few times I would do things for my business. I kind of had to cover my eyes and hit post. And then, over time, it became so much easier. So I think that somewhat inadvertently answers your question of like, how do we, how do we know what stuff to take on and what stuff not to. I think part of that is time. Part of that’s experience and part of building your confidence and sense of self to know that you are not responsible to anyone but yourself, in a lot of ways. Jenn DeWall: Yes. I love that you are not responsible for anyone but yourself. You always get to choose what you take on, and you get to choose whether or not you want to entrust that individual’s feedback. They may not even be someone you like yet. You listen to them. Like that is always the piece that, and I know that I’ve done this. It could be someone that I don’t even respect, but then if they give me a piece of negative criticism, I’m like, what! <Laugh> A Message From Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the own- a-franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. What If I Don’t Address My Recurring Patterns? Jenn DeWall: So what happens when we don’t— going back to those patterns—what happens if we just sit, you know, kind of on our hands, if we just maintain complacency or just avoid addressing them in general? Chris Castillo: Yeah. So if we see recurring patterns or again, like this is rooted in, as I called it, like the head trash when we have things that are driving our decisions, if we don’t deal with them, they keep ch coming up. Right. So they keep showing up. They keep being in the driver’s seat of the car, so to speak. And it feels like your hands are tied, and you sit there frustrated, scratching your head saying, well, I don’t know why I can’t just start this business, or I don’t know why I can’t just do X, Y, and Z. And it’s because we haven’t dealt with the head trash, and so we’re staying in it, or we’re staying kind of committed to it. So if we don’t address it, it’s gonna just keep repeating itself until you’re ready to address it typically. Yeah. In my experience. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I feel like I see that too. It doesn’t  go away <laugh> you have to be able to address it and, and owning it and saying, yeah, there’s something that I’m doing that might be contributing to why I’m not there. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative> I could be frustrated for not growing in XYZ, but if I’m not doing the work mm-hmm <affirmative>, how would I expect that? Or putting in a simple word when I was, you know, doing my Peloton morning thinking I’m like, oh my gosh, she’s so like, she’s so fit. I wanna do that. Jenn, do you commit to the same level of work that she does? I mean, you don’t have to judge yourself if you don’t, but understanding what that takes and addressing it and seeing like you have to also be invested. Chris Castillo: I was just gonna say stepping out a little bit- to your point. Yeah. Yeah. Cause it’s like, I think that’s the important part of it, for sure. Jenn DeWall: You talked about living in the gray and that under that, knowing that so many of us were, were raised to like do right or wrong thinking that black or white. I know for me, I can distinctly remember a boss always telling me early on in my career, Jenn, you really need to learn how to live in the gray. Yeah. And I think part of that is like I had this high value of integrity, and so things very much were painted in this black or white. And so then it made it more difficult to even mm-hmm <affirmative> see that things could be a different way. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I don’t know. Like, do you ever struggle with that, or do you notice that your clients struggle with understanding how to live in the gray? Chris Castillo: Oh my gosh. Yes! So all of my clients – or no, many of my clients have struggled with that. And I definitely struggled with that. I think I always joke with clients that I’m like, look if it feels like I’m saying something that you’re like, how does she understand the inside of my brain and speak to my soul? It’s probably cuz I felt the same thing before. Right. Because I can, I easily identify like, Hey, are we struggling to set some boundaries with leaving the office? Because we feel like we need to prove ourselves? Because I did that same thing. Right. So I think it’s important to know that, yeah, this is a universal experience for many people. But yeah, I’ve struggled with that. And I think for me, the thing that really helped with embracing the gray and the fact that I can always decide again, which is something I have to constantly tell myself. And I constantly chat with clients about is, is I think it’s really as someone who really likes to see the world with like certainty and yes there is right, and it is wrong and do the right thing and being taught to make the correct, the honorable choice and da da, da, da, to your point, it’s very like morally based. I think it was always hard for me to deal with uncertainty. And I think one of the things that were really helpful for me was when I acknowledged that the world is chaos, which sounds like a scary acknowledgment, but then I acknowledged on top of that, that I am my certainty. Know What You Can Control— Yourself Chris Castillo: So what I mean by that is like, there are gonna be things that are gonna happen. I had a baby in February 2020, and I definitely can tell you, I did not expect a global pandemic to start one month into her being alive. <Laugh> there are a lot of things I foresee, that was not one of them. I’m sure many people agree whether they had a kid at that time or not. And so, you know, there are always gonna be the unexpected things, but how I deal with things, how I respond, how I handle things is my sense of certainty. And that actually really helped me. Because it allowed me to acknowledge, like, yes, there are things that I can’t control, but I can control myself. I can deal with myself. I can look at the things that I can impact because instead of trying to control the things that are way outside of my control, I instead just focus on trying to control the things that I can actually control. Am I getting enough sleep? Am I feeling like doing things that I can do? Yes. And that reframe has really helped me. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Focus on what you can control. So let’s talk about what you can control! How can you start to create new patterns to stop sabotaging your success? Reframing How You Think About Your Recurring Patterns Chris Castillo: Yeah. So when it comes to reframing the way we think about things, I think what’s the most important step that people often wanna skip is looking at why they’re there in the first place. So often, what I see is people say, okay, yes, there is this recurring pattern of, you know, struggling to set boundaries at work. And what that’s about is, you know, I feel like I really need to prove myself as an employee. I had one client who, when we looked at, okay, why do you feel like you need to work all these hours? She had this realization that she was like, both my parents, my, my dad came from Cuba. My mom came from China, and both my parents are immigrants. And so there’s this thought that, like, I feel that I need to make all of their effort to come here worth it. Right. So whatever it is, that’s the thing that’s driving you to stay in this pattern. I think it’s important to look at it. Why, where it comes from, what has told us that it’s true and how it serves us to keep it around. Because I think people so often try and jump quickly to like, oh, well I, I think that I need to prove myself. So now I’m just gonna say I don’t, that’s called repression, and it’s not really a great approach to deal with these things. <Laugh> so instead, we wanna focus on you know, why is it here? How has it served me to keep this around? And then, you know, leaving the things that are useful. What’s a healthier reframe? So yes, maybe you know, I like, I wanna show that I’m a good employee, but it’s not just the hours that make me a good employee, for example. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Yeah. I love like it’s I love that. And I think when you’re saying too, cuz I think this is often a piece that goes overlooked and it’s the piece of giving yourself grace. And I know you and I are both coaches, but giving yourself the grace to understand that you picked up these patterns at a point where it was likely helping you in some way. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> you weren’t wrong when you picked them up. You observed, you gave the example of the individual whose parents were from Cuba and China, and they observed that and so they picked it up and they knew that their parents might be happy. Maybe that’s what it was- that they could appease their parents by doing that. And so then you programmed it in, and I think this is an important piece. A lot of people, I think, can go down the path of judging themselves. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> gosh, why did I do that? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> how did I pick that up? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> no, these were natural things that you likely just picked up to help you be successful in the first place. Chris Castillo: Mmm-Hmm <affirmative> yep. That’s not serving you anymore where you, so no shade. Don’t be mad about it, right? Yes. Exactly. People are so quick to judge themselves for it. And like, I think it’s helpful to know to anyone who’s listening to this. I have never met a single person who has no weird head trash when it comes to their career. No one I’ve ever worked with has there’s a lot of people who think they don’t, and then they start this work, and they go, Ooh, maybe there is something there. But it’s very common. So definitely don’t feel that you are alone or isolated in it, because it’s so, so, so normal. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. And I’m just gonna call this out too because if there is someone listening that, you know, I have no issues, I have no challenges. I guess my question would be, are you still growing? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> because when we say that, then it implies that we don’t need improvement. We have reached perfection, which you know, doesn’t exist. And I don’t know if you get that. I sometimes get that, you know, I could be delivering a keynote. I could be delivering a class, and sometimes you’ll have that person. That’s like, this doesn’t apply to me. It just applies to everyone else. No, really, it does. They just maybe don’t have that self-awareness yet. Or they haven’t been challenged with a coach to say, let’s challenge that a little bit. <Laugh> so do you have any response to that? Chris Castillo: People want to have grown, right? They want to reach the end destination a lot of the time. And to your point, I like to push clients to say, gosh, wouldn’t that be depressing? Wouldn’t it be sad if we got to the place where we’re like, okay, well, I guess I’m kinda done growing? So it’s just a slow slide to the end now. Right? Like, gosh, that sounds depressing. And so it’s a silly thing, but like I think that illustration actually does help me sometimes. To be like, it’s actually the growing and the process, and yeah, it can be uncomfortable to be going through the process, but there is not really an end goal. I mean, there’s an end that we’re moving towards, but we don’t really ever reach it typically because wouldn’t that be kind of sad. Jenn DeWall: There is no endpoint! If you’re not growing, you’re dying. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So when you go through, you know, you’re, you’re learning how, or like you’re thinking about that recurring pattern, how you’re doing that processing, where you can say, you know, how it served, you doing that reflection of understanding without judgment, just curiosity mm-hmm <affirmative> what would be any insights you have for the reframe that can help someone think like, okay, what’s my reframe to this. Because I think when you’re stuck in that thinking, sometimes people are like, reframe what? No, I own this and live with this for the rest of my life because I thought it <laugh>. Chris Castillo: Yeah. So I think it’s, it’s hard to explain verbally, but like when I visualize it with clients will typically well write out, okay, where did this come from? How has it served me? How has it not served me? And then we look at all those things to build our reframe with that in mind. Because again, I think it’s important. What we don’t want is the overswinging of the pendulum. So we don’t wanna just say the opposite of the thing that we’ve always thought because that’s not gonna work. We’re not gonna buy it. But instead, we wanna push ourselves a little bit. So, for example, if you’ve always told yourself, the only way to be successful is in a nine to five, maybe you can, instead of saying, no, the only way to be successful in doing your own business. That’s not necessarily the counter we want. Instead, maybe it’s something like there are a lot of ways to be successful. And to me, success would feel like A, B and C. And so we want to like, look at why you’ve kept that around what it’s served you, what it’s protected you from to believe that thing. Whether it’s the only way to be successful is corporate or whatever else, baggage that you have. We wanna take some time to look at it. So then we can take that into account, into our reframe, to just push ourselves a little further. Because essentially, the thing with head trash is its stuff that can go through but is not 100% of the time true. And when we get into trouble is when we say without fail, this is always, you know, the answer. Does that answer your question? Yeah. I feel like it’s, it’s very a meaty kind of hard to talk through verbally. Jenn DeWall: I think it’s great. And it brings up. I feel like I’m gonna call them maybe “traditional” leadership rules. And one that I, that came to mind as you were talking is when I was early on my career, there was always this rule. Like if you’re, you know, if you’re working later than six, you’re committed <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> or, and I think that one took a long time to break because it created this culture of like everyone was competing to be the first in the last out. So you could show how great you were. And I think that it was so hard for me initially to go into an organization that maybe did practice work-life integration. And I was like, what, what do you mean? People are, people, are coming in at nine 30 don’t they know that you have to get in early to be successful? Wait, you’re leaving early for a soccer game? Mm-Hmm <affirmative> I mean, I just think about that because it is true. It’s taking power back, like just because someone gave you that pattern or that might have been a learned lesson from that culture, you know, the reframe is just the switch in definitions of it. It’s not, you know, who’s to say that because you’re working 90 hours that you’re putting in the best work or that you always have to work 10 hours a day to be a valued employee? I mean, on the flip side, you could maybe not be as efficient, right? Yeah. You could be talking or whatever. Chris Castillo: And then you’re over there, dredging everyone else saying like, oh, did you see that Sally didn’t arrive till 10. Right. And all you’re doing is, is yeah. Shooting yourself in the foot because, yes, there’s so much more to being a good employee than the hours you work. But I think if we can’t push ourselves beyond that, it can be very limiting and very challenging. And we have to be the first one to actually deal with our stuff before we can you anything about it? So I could never actually get up and leave to go to the workout class that I wanted to go to at 5:00 PM until I dealt with my own feelings of, oh my gosh, everyone’s gonna get up and point and say, “Loser! She’s not trying very hard!” whenever I was scared was gonna happen. Right. You know, you do it a few times, and the walls don’t crumble, and you say, okay, so maybe this is something that was a me-supported concern. Jenn DeWall: Yes. I love that. I mean, get curious. What would be your last? Maybe I know that we’re wrapping up this podcast. What would be any last pieces of advice or insights you would want to share? You would want people to know as it relates to, you know, addressing these reoccurring patterns? Remember You Are Not Alone Chris Castillo: Yeah. I mean, I think I know I mentioned it before, but I do think it’s really important to acknowledge one- you are not the only person who is feeling these things or having these fears or having head trash. So many people have stuff. Stuff might look a little different, but everyone has stuff. And then also you, you, until you’re ready to learn them, that is the right timeline. So don’t feel like, oh my gosh, I need to do all of this now. Or don’t feel like, oh, I should have learned this before or whatever else is coming up for you. I think that can be like a really common sentiment of this. And I think maybe it’s because I tend to work with perfectionist high achievers that maybe I hear more of this, but there can be a lot of this pressure of like yeah— needing to, to get through all of this quickly. But once you’re ready to learn it, you can take the time to learn it, take the time to do it right. And then you can move forward. There’s no rush in the process, unfortunately. But yeah. That’s how you get to actual results. Jenn DeWall: You are exactly where you are supposed to be. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> Chris, how do people get in touch with you? I know we’re gonna talk about this in our closing outro, but just in case they wanna hear from your mouth, how do they get in touch with you? Chris Castillo: Yeah. So, Chris Castillo, I am the female Chris Castillo, which normally makes me easier to find cuz a lot of people don’t expect me to be who I am when they look for me. My business is Empowered Achievers, and you can find me at BeEmpoweredAchievers.com. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much, Chris, for sharing your time, your expertise, all of the knowledge and stories. We are so grateful. Thank you for reminding me to again take that ownership around what patterns are holding me back that, you know, are keeping me from that ideal that I want to actually achieve. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Chris Castillo: Thank you so much for having me. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Chris, and I hope that you did too. And if you want to get to know more about her, there are multiple offerings, but to learn more about Chris, the coaching that she offers, or her self-study program, the Purpose Chaser School, go to BeEmpoweredAchievers.com, where you can schedule a free exploratory call. If you know someone that could benefit from this, please share it with them. And of course, if you’ve enjoyed it, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service.   The post Recognize the Recurring Patterns That Are Sabotaging Your Success with Career Coach Chris Castillo appeared first on Crestcom International.

Set Up Your Team for Success in 2022 with Leadership Team Coach, Nikhil Paul In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we talk with Nikhil Paul. For those that may not know him, Nikhil is a leadership coach who founded We R Human to help senior executives and their teams strengthen their focus culture and execution through engaging workshops and coaching programs today on the podcast. Nikhil and I will be talking about how you can set up your team for success in 2022. Full Transcript Below: Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jen DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with leadership host Nikhil Paul- whoa, host? I mean coach! That’s what we’re talking about. We’re here to talk about leadership. So Hey, you know, I, I always like leaving in a little bit of the flubs because that’s reality. Yeah. I could do everything perfectly all the time, but that is just not a realistic expectation, but I love that. Because I know that when we’re talking about mistakes when we’re talking about flubs, that also is the role of a leader in talking about team success, which is what we’re gonna be talking about today! So while we’re starting out, could you just go ahead and introduce yourself tell us your story. How did you come to be— how did you start or found We R Human? I wanna hear it all. Meet Nikhil Paul, Team Leadership Coach Nikhil Paul: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. And as a leadership team host – I’m just kidding. <Laugh>  yeah, no, thank you so much, Jenn, for having me. You know my journey into becoming who I am today. It’s like everybody else, right? It’s like it’s meandering. It’s twists and turns; it’s ups and downs, highs and lows. And you know, I’m actually an immigrant. So one of the things I kind of take when I come into this, any situation or any kind of environment, I always I’m grateful for being where I am. It wouldn’t have been possible if I did, wasn’t able to come to this country and learn and see, and kind of get recognized for some of my skill sets and very early on in high school. That was one of my skill sets that people were like, oh, you’re so good at is public speaking. And so that is the common vein in a lot of my career— that I kept pushing into talking in front of large groups, trying to MC events and like lead workshops. And so I started out as a startup founder, and I actually built an employee engagement software company a couple of years outta college. And with that startup, I learned a lot about the culture problems and the motivation challenges that big companies are having with their employees. And I also, you know, got to work and interact with them and see it from behind the scenes as well. After a bunch of years of doing that, I kinda, you know, had to shut that down. And I kept moving on. I, I was thinking about it. I was like, you know, I really did enjoy the culture. I really did love motivating people, especially with my team and with the employees who were using our software. But I was like, OK, finding the next iteration of my entrepreneurship journey. How do I kind of do this again? What should I do? And that’s where I leaned into my skillset of being in front of a group of people being able to like host and see and narrate, and I love it. I love being in front of people. And so that’s the Genesis of, We R Human. When I came up with this idea for the second generation of my career and this entrepreneurial journey, I was like, I wanna, I don’t know exactly what I wanna do, but I know that I wanna do something that taps into something that’s deeply meaningful and that something we all share, and our shared humanity. And We R Human is kind of born from that, this idea of the kind of connecting with people on our most root, vulnerable level as we try to get better, learn, laugh, love more. And so, as part of this journey, I work with teams. I work with companies. I worked with communities. And what I found that I really loved the most was working with passionate people working on moonshot projects. I just realized I absolutely loved it. People are committed and trying to make something happen for the better of their company, their customers or their community. I really was attracted to it. And that’s how I fell into the world of leadership team coaching. And so that’s what brings me here today. Setting Your Team Up for Success by Remembering We Are All Human Jenn DeWall: You know the name, We R Human. I love that because you talked about it. It hits the most. It hits our vulnerable level, the place of who we are as individuals, not just the title that we might show up and come and punch the clock with. <Laugh> I’m curious what your, because I don’t know if 10, 15 years ago, if the name We R Human, would’ve been as meaningful because I still think there was this old notion of, Hey, these are people they should be happy to have a job. What do you mean? Emotions don’t exist at work? I don’t care if they’re human beings. Yeah. I’m curious if you feel like there’s a change where people are, are starting to really engage in the notion of seeing the whole person, because I think that that’s, I love your business name because I just, we are all human. We are trying to do that. Yeah. But I’m curious, your thoughts are in whether or not you’ve seen a change through culture is starting to be more, you know, really inclusive in that regard of seeing that whole person? Nikhil Paul: Yeah. A hundred percent right. And it’s kind of like these tectonic shifts and generations and culture because when we, our grandparents, were in the workforce, it was all about just making sure you have a nine to five. It’s a lifetime commitment. That’s your identity. You know, don’t complain and work hard. Right. And then, by the time our parents’ generation came in, the focus was a lot more on making money and getting bonuses that like really kind of focusing on the wealth and the amalgamation of it. I think by the time the millennials and my generations come in, it’s about trying to find meaning in our work. Right. And I am trying to imbue it with a sense of purpose. And so I’m definitely seeing that, like, it’s kind of awesome to see kind of some of my classmates and people that are within my generation really think about, OK, how do I connect to this company? Or what, what does this product mean to me? And I think that’s the step in the right direction because we spend literally one-third of our lives working. And of course, look, we are not always gonna be working at our dream jobs. And sometimes we have to do things just to pay the bills. But if you are not able to find the way to kind of transform your work into something a little bit more special, a little bit more magical, then you’re kind of missing out on the secret of work. You have to find a way to enjoy the dreary, the dull because there’s, there’s always beauty in the corners and the small things you don’t see. And I, and I love that idea of trying to kind of empower the work that we do, even if it’s not the most like, amazing, inspiring, exciting. Because not all of us get that lucky to work on our dream careers. You have to find a way to find the beauty in it. And so that that’s, I definitely agree. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, I like that you bring that up because I think, you know, lately, I see a lot of people, Hey, let’s, let’s help you find your dream career. Let’s help you find this. And I used to really buy into the fact that you can have a fully dream career and you can’t. I love what I do. I love what I do, but here’s the truth about it. I still have things I don’t like to do within that dream career. There are still things that we don’t like. I don’t love 100% of the things that I do because, you know what? Some things are outside of my strengths, outside of my interest. And so I’m just gonna plant the seed that for whoever might be feeling like I’m not my dream job because I hate X. That’s OK! A dream job is learning how to find what you said, I forget exactly how you said at the beauty in the corner, you know, looking within and finding that it doesn’t have to be 100% perfect all the time because that’s not the reality of life ever. So how can we even have that expectation? Nikhil Paul: <Laugh> yeah. A hundred percent, it’s honestly, not everyone’s ever going to find a dream job. And I think people have the same thing with like titles and outcomes, like the money we make or the titles that we gain. It’s like, nothing is going to make us fully that happy. Right. Because the moment you achieve it, or you get something, or you’re in your dream career, then there’s just the work. After the high wears off, the dopamine goes away. That is just the doing of being, and actually being present in your life and whatever that is like you may be, you know, for me, I love being in front of, like I said, a team of people and those moments to me in like the happiest and the highest. But if all I had was that all the time, I would never really appreciate that. I would get used to it. I would just be like, OK, whatever. Right. But if you go through the boring and the darker times of life and you struggle through it well, then by the time you come back again to what you love or you that what you’re finding that you’re the most joy, then you’re going to really appreciate it. So you need both. You can’t just be in this like Lala land where every moment of your life or your work, even if it’s your dream career, it’s this blissful thing. It’s impossible. The brain doesn’t work like that. Yeah. So, yeah, I agree. <Laugh> yeah. Jenn DeWall: And no one is living 100% of the time loving all the things, despite what you see on social media. So remember that! Nikhil Paul: That’s exactly right. So Jenn DeWall: We’re gonna be talking about how to set up your team for success in 2022. It’s I think it’s probably a question that a lot of leaders have right now. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> what do we want to accomplish? What do we want this year to look like? I’m sure there’s still maybe a lot of leaders that are doing triage right now where people are out sick, or they have vacancies as a result of that big quit. So I’m, I know that a lot of people are gonna appreciate this situation or excuse me, this conversation, because we’re going to give you on what you can do, or I should say we’re, <laugh>, you’re gonna give them the difference. So let’s start out, like, where do you even begin when you think about how do you set up your team for success in 2022? If you were putting yourself into the shoes of that leader, where would you say to start? Set Your Team Up for Success By Finding Purpose Nikhil Paul: Yeah, that’s a great question. So the short answer is it’s its purpose, right? So it goes back to that thing we were talking about with meaning, right. I think as you can see with the great resignation that’s happening, people have realized, look, I don’t have to work at this job if it’s gonna make me miserable like I can figure out other ways to live. And, and it’s this whole new thing. And so if you are an employer or you are a leader of a team, and you are trying to motivate and get people together, try to figure out the great purpose of your work. And I know that sounds a bit farfetched for people are doing kind of like, you know, basic software or like boring products that maybe people are not as excited by, but there’s always some beautiful purpose there. And it’s your job as a leader to find it. And I’ll, I’ll give you a quick example. Bill George was the CEO of Medtronic, and Medtronic was a medical device company. And, you know, again, medical devices, maybe not the most like, oh my God, amazing. But he was really passionate about it. And he would constantly go about visiting people, the employees, factory workers, the doctors, and the patients. And one day, a doctor was literally so angry at him. And he threw a malfunctioning -he showed him a malfunctioning pacemaker that their company had made. And he threw it at him and said, look at what you’re doing. This is messing up. This is killing my patients, and you have to fix this. And so the bill was very like, he was just, he like, that was the fire under his butt. Like he was like, OK, I need to figure this out. So he basically, from that day on, he would start bringing in patients into the factory floor of his company, of the pacemaker making shop. And he would bring them through, and he would have these patients talk about their experiences, how life-saving, literally life-saving these pacemakers were. And it would be these really meaningful stories. And by the end of it, the people on the factory floor were crying because of how meaningful and how touched they were by their stories. From that day onward. Do you think any worker would allow a pacemaker to leave that factory that is not functioning right? Because they feel a sense of deep purpose. They’re connected to a greater mission, and it’s a real mission. It’s not just some fluffy we’re doing this to gain market share, or we’re doing this because you know where we need to be innovative. It’s something real; they’re touching people’s lives. And so that’s the first thing I always think about any team that’s coming in, try to find a real human story that connects why you all wanna work on what you’re working on. Jenn DeWall: I think that’s so important. I think there are companies that sometimes think by having that mission statement, maybe having that overall organizational objective, that that’s enough. And to some extent, in the example of Medtronics, absolutely. You could probably clearly see how you’re helping the quality of life of others. Nikhil Paul: That’s right. That’s right. Jenn DeWall: But, and there’s something I noticed in some of the coaching conversations I’ve had this week. Which is how do you instill purpose when they don’t care? And this example is one where I know that it’s the start of the year. A lot of companies might be thinking about how can I make my workforce healthier? So I’m going to set up incentives. Because they know at the end of the day, it’ll save the company money. That’s not enough of a purpose for that person to want to do that. So weird. Do you think people get it wrong when they’re trying to bring out that purpose from people? To Keep Teams Motivated – Focus on Your Mission and Follow Through Nikhil Paul: Yeah. That, that’s a great question. Because you see this all the time in companies, right? Like the company will have a mission, or you go through their offices, they’ll be like, these are the things we’re trying to do. And I think, again, it’s all great efforts. It’s all people trying to take steps in the right direction. What they kind of lose sight of is making a, making it real and connecting to why those people are there, to begin with. Right. If I’m working at a company and I’m a leader at that company, there’s a; there’s a value connection there. There’s a reason I wanna help people who are suffering medically. Maybe I have a father who has a medical condition. Right. So, so part of things is you ha as a leader, you have to figure out a way to connect it to something real. Right. And, and so the way to kinda do it is, think about a superordinate goal. Imagine if there was like I love Marvel the, you know, the adventure series. And Thanos is kind of what I consider a superordinate Villa, right? He’s the villain that brings together all the years that they come together. So even though they’re all clashing personalities and they don’t necessarily work together in the beginning, by having this overwhelming, like, oh my God, this big kinda superordinate problem in front of them, they band together. So similarly, as a leader, you need to figure out what is the superordinate goal that’s gonna bring a group together. And that’s the first part of it. It has to. That’s how you deeply motivate people, first and foremost, by connecting to something that brings them together. Secondly, it also has to be a sense of focus. The other thing, why people get demotivated, and they’re not as, you know, following through on their mission or whatever their purpose is, is because they’re not able to make real choices with their mission. Right? Sometimes it gets a little too hazy. It gets a little too up in the air. So part of a leader’s job is to be clear about what we’re focusing on with this mission, with this larger team purpose. And even more importantly, what are we not? What are things we’re saying? No, if you can give that clarity to your teammates, then you’re empowered. Now they know, oh, this is how I can act in my purpose. This is how we actually get to make this purpose come real. And so that’s the other part I always think about. So it’s not only the motivation, finding that big superordinate goal, that’s motivating them and rallying them, but it’s. Also, it’s like this decision-making kind of touchpoint that helps them individually or together make decisions on this is what we’re definitely gonna do this, definitely what we’re not going to do. Jenn DeWall: A decision-making touchpoint. It’s so important. I mean, maybe I’m speaking, you know, for someone else here, or maybe I’m speaking from my past experience <laugh> but maybe someone can really, one of my biggest struggles or I would call it my own personal, like pet peeves at work, is feeling like, you know, me as an individual, I want to do so well at my job. That’s very important to me. I take a lot of pride in my work. Yep. And what makes it challenging is when I do feel like there are competing priorities, mm-hmm <affirmative> and Hey, we want you to do this. This is our next initiative. And this one and this one, no, we’re not gonna prioritize them. They’re all of equal importance, which then, you know, triggers that, oh my gosh, how am I even there are not enough hours in the day. Jenn DeWall: Yep. And then also it creates an ambiguity of where do I even start and how do I measure myself or should I just make sure I’m doing enough just to, you know, move a little bit that’s. And so I appreciate that you talk about the focus because it really is a pain point for me. I struggle a lot when there are so many competing initiatives being pushed down at me because I just want to say, how are you actually going to measure this? If you just think we can do every single thing. And I love that you called it that decision touchpoint if you just focus. Yeah. You get people permission to also focus. But if you’re not focused, you’re just creating more chaos for the people that report to you or the people that are likely like me want to do a good job, want to do what you need them to do, want to help what’re organization succeed. But you’re doing them a disservice by having too much. Nikhil Paul: That’s exactly right. And as a result of that, you know, you’re demotivating them. So, you know, if everything is a priority, nothing is a priority. Do you know what I mean? And that’s exactly what you just pointed out. Like, this is one of the biggest things I see teams do all the time. It’s like, well, we gotta do a little of this. And ultimately, they’re not really moving the ball forward. That much of what they should be doing to achieve their purpose. Right. Or, or their basically every idea that comes out, they’re like, this is the next big thing. Like it’s a shiny object syndrome where they’re like, oh my God, this is gonna change it. And so before, you know, it, every three to four weeks, you’re jumping from one idea to another. And so, these are biases. These are cognitive, kind of like you know, inclinations that we all have. So we have to be mindful of that. And that’s why the purpose is a really good point—this kind of use this. And as like, again, that decision touchstone say, OK, what are we definitely gonna say yes to? And what are things we’re definitely gonna say no to so that our people don’t feel demotivated after a while? They’ll just check out if we don’t get this right. Jenn DeWall: Which right now, again, there are a lot of options, and there are a lot of vacancies that they can go to. And this is one small thing. You’re just saying, by the way, this is more important than this. When I’m handing this down, that’s great, and it’s just so interesting that it is such a, it’s, you know, two sentences that you can say that I feel like go a long way. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the own-a-franchise page of our website at crestcom.com. Set Up Your Team for Success with Psychological Safety Jenn DeWall: So we’re starting with, how do you set your team up for success in 2022? It starts with setting up that purpose you had said and then making sure that it’s a purpose that brings people together. And then, of course, that it’s focused that you’re not spreading your purpose or out on all these things that you’re not actually going to yield any final, or I guess anything that’s going to move the mark. Where do you go after you have that purpose? Nikhil Paul: Yeah. So once you have the purpose and people feel very motivated and they have a clear sense of what they need to do, the next thing is you need to work on your, what I like to call your culture covenant, right? Because when you have a group of people that are working in a high-performance team, they have to have trust. Because if you don’t have trust with each other, you can’t do much. And that’s, you know, it’s that the core basis of trust in how you, as a leader, know, if you have trust is you can create an environment of safety. And this is something Google has done studies on and found out the trait of the most powerful teams that they have in their company is this feeling of psychological safety. So as a leader, that’s what you have to focus on. But trust sometimes is like a little hard to, you know, do I trust this person? OK. I dunno what that means. Maybe I do. I don’t, but safety is very clear. You either feel safe with a group of people, or you don’t feel safe. It’s binary. And so, as a leader, that’s the first thing you wanna work on. You wanna create that foundation of safety so that then you can; people start building trust with each other. And once they trust, then they start actually debating and arguing, having constructive conflict, which is the next step you wanna build on top of that. And so that’s the real crux here. You wanna get the team to get into a good place and have very strong, vigorous, real debates and have rules around how to have those debates and how to make those decisions, right? Those are the two cultural touchpoints. You wanna then bring into the team. How are we working together? And what are the culture covenants we should focus on? Jenn DeWall: I love that you bring up psychological safety! In some circles, in some conversations? I think there’s a lot of people that are in agreement that psychological safety, you know, we’ve seen those, those studies by Google, by Microsoft, by a lot of different people. And, but yet I’m still meeting people that I think are like, what the heck? What do you mean? Why? That doesn’t make sense! And so I think it’s interesting. I know what sets a lot with diversity, equity and inclusion. But if you would say what psychological safety is in the easiest way, because I, I feel it is just feeling like I am gonna be accepted at work. I feel that I’m not going to be retaliated against, that people are going to have transparent conversations. I’m not sure how you see that, but I guess my question that I’m getting to is why do you think that people still maybe are reluctant to take that and say psychological safety? <Laugh> like, why are we talking about this again? We’re going down that avenue of emotions, psychological safety, yes. Safety. I get it. But psychological safety. What, where do you think that’s people are still resistant to that? Nikhil Paul: Yeah. I think people are resistant to that. Maybe it’s because it feels like this should be something we’ve already done. It’s kind of like, Hey, we’re already working together. We’re professionals in a working environment. We don’t need to make this more complex than it needs to be. But the truth is, it’s like- this is like a relationship you’re in, right? If you have a partner, you can’t just go on stasis. Like it doesn’t like a relationship where you guys take each other for granted and just do the same old thing. That’s a relationship slowly wearing itself down. Right. You have to be mindful. You have to vest. That’s the same thing with trust and psychological safety. So like with trust, you have to make sure you’re being intentional about it. Because it’s left to our own devices, we start becoming very protective. We become more siloed. We become more about ourselves. And so that’s why you need to bring that about. I think a lot of leaders are like, no, we got it. We already have safety. We already have trust. We, I don’t need to kinda get into the weeds again, but it’s not about getting into the weeds again. It’s about working on your fundamentals. No matter what, you still have to work on your fundamentals and check in with the team to make sure that this fabric on which trust is built is not frayed. And so psychological safety to me, the basic question that you can ask is, do you have my back, right? Do you have my back? When I offer an idea that might sound silly, do you have my back when I criticize you in front of others and say, Hey, maybe that wasn’t the right thing to do. Do you have my back when I mess up? Right? So that’s the point here. If you don’t have that, people don’t take chances. People are not real. People are not bold. And that’s when your team starts getting more sluggish, and they start becoming less high-performing. They start going backward. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And that’s very valuable. I think about, you know, all the examples that you just shared. And, you know, I think there’s a lot of people right now that might be feeling, I have these vacancies to fill, and everyone just wants money. And I would actually argue that I would rather have a place where I feel supported than make 20,000 or 10,000- whatever that number is- more per year because I want to make sure that I feel safe and supported because it alleviates stress for me. I feel confident. I feel like I can contribute in a greater way. So for those that maybe are still thinking that, oh my gosh, this is annoying. Why do I have to do this? You’re just, again, like slowing down to speed up. You can make people and create the right environment for them to thrive. And then maybe those other things aren’t that big of an issue. And I had this conversation recently, like once those scales tip that’s when, if I’m not feeling supported, well, then you better believe I’m gonna want more money. Because I’m gonna, you know, have less, I guess, tolerance for, if you’re not going to treat me like a person and make sure that safe at work- well then, OK, make sure that you pay me what I deserve. <Laugh> I feel like I’ll be able to make, make concessions for things just to feel supported, like right. It means something. Nikhil Paul: That’s so interesting. That’s exactly right. Yeah. That’s right. That’s exactly right. Set Up Your Team for Success—With Conflict? Jenn DeWall: So where we go, we create, we focus on culture, and then we go into talked about conflict, which I love like, so getting into conflict because I think, again, that’s one of the things, or, you know, at Crestcom we teach leadership development. And I think when we’re talking about managing conflict, it does not just have the process. It’s also addressing the culture of your team. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so where do you go when you’re thinking about we’re setting our team up for success, we’ve got, we’re being mindful of culture, then where are we going? As it relates to conflict? Nikhil Paul: Yeah. So, you know, conflict is, to me it’s kind of that final loop around culture, right? Huh. Because the, for me, conflict is where the rubber hits the road. Right. And you’re actually being able to kind of work out the kinks in the system, and you’re all bettering or creating or manifesting something more important. That’s when a team starts actually coming together and becoming more than the sum of their parts. Right. And so, for me, the problem with conflict for a lot of people is that no, we don’t like tension. <Laugh> I think, you know, I was just, I was actually writing a post about this. Martin Luther King, in his letter from Birmingham jail, said I am not afraid of the word tension. Right. And he was saying that because he was defending his need to agitate. And, and I think back then, a lot of people were like, you know, why don’t you just negotiate rather than lead marches and sit-ins. And because he’s like, listen, you don’t get it. If you don’t have tension, you are not going to address the real problem. And that’s true for societal issues, as well as our professional and team issues. If we don’t have healthy conflict, we’re going to address the root emotional problem. And once you address it, only then do you understand the scale of the problem? Do you understand the subtleties? Do you understand the urgency? Right? And so it’s very important that there’s some level of healthy conflict like there’s tension in the team to help get the best ideas out there. You know, research has shown that the more cognitive diversity that you have, you’re going to have more conflict, but that’s a good thing because the best ideas come from great debates, right? Ideas that are made in isolation by like this really like visionary leader, they don’t work that well. I mean, we might have stories about the single founder or one person being this amazing genius, this brilliant jerk. But the truth is ideas that are created in a team that’s really highly vetted and debated and reasoned and rationalized. Those are the ones that ultimately have the most success. So, that’s why conflict is so important. It really helps elevate the output, the creativity, the originality of the, and so that’s the second part. I always think about it with a high-performing team. Jenn DeWall: I love that for those that might be afraid of conflict. Maybe it’s just looking at it as tension. And you need the right amount of tension. Yeah. Think that, you know, there are so many negatives, many people are afraid of it. I don’t know why I’m less afraid. Probably I should be probably more afraid. <Laugh> But I think it’s personality, but I absolutely know people that it’s, it is really off-put or, and don’t get wrong. There are certain circumstances where of course, it’s really uncomfortable, but the tension is where growth is tension and that, you know, that’s where we’re helping each other challenge the status quo. And, but yet it is, I love that you do put it as part of culture because yeah. You can read a book on the appropriate way to resolve a conflict, have a conflict. But if you don’t have that as an established norm, it doesn’t matter how you apply that. That’s exactly right. <Laugh> I mean, it’s, you know, so you have to be able to say, and I guess I always go back, and it was a podcast interview that I had done with someone that was in theater, and her name was Hilary Blair. And she talked about how, you know, in many other organizations, I would say industries, and her background was in theater feedback was a totally normal part of it. <Laugh> if you wanted to put on a great performance, you had to take it. And oftentimes it was public too, because, Hey, you didn’t get your line there. But she said people responded better to it because it was just a common part of being in theater. It wasn’t this scary thing. No, we needed it to put on a good performance, but yet here we go. And we have to recognize that we have to establish that commonplace, that prior to people mm-hmm, there’s not been appropriate, like yay conflict! No, we have this fear of conflict. And so it is re we need it. Now, there are ways that you can say it, don’t get me wrong. Nikhil Paul: That’s. Right. Yeah. And it’s, it’s like, it’s the way you say it. It’s, it’s balancing honesty with respect. Right. It’s, it’s, it’s balancing vulnerability with kindness, and that’s the key here. Though it’s not just you just having a fight for the sake of having a fight. You’re having, and you’re having those challenges so that you can get the best outta people. And so that’s the thing you’re right. There has to be balance. You can’t just come in guns blazing and just expect people to just accept it. Jenn DeWall: Well, I mean, there may, some people, people that do that but think about how many voices you miss in that conversation that might actually know, and they’re not doing it to be, I would say cynical or negative. They might just say like, Ooh, I have the awareness to this. And this could be a big challenge, but I don’t feel comfortable bringing it up. Nikhil Paul: That’s exactly right. So many people, you are exactly right. There are a lot of silent voices out there for sure. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Where do you go from the cultural standpoint? Where do you go from there? Yeah. Set Up Your Team for Success with OMEs— One. Minimum. Easy. Nikhil Paul: So, once we have the purpose and we have a great sense of the kind of culture we’re establishing, the third part is execution. Right. And it’s about acting on the focus we talked about before, right? And so for me, this where a lot of teams sometimes drop the ball is they’re actually when the rubber hits the road, they’re not able to actually execute on what their plans are. And some of these teams have amazing strategic, very multi-level plans, but somehow they don’t really know how to actually do it when it comes down to it. And, and part of that me is again, using a focusing framework. So I call it this, this one framework, you know, people know about the OKRs- objectives and key results. It’s like a famous framework that comes out of Andy Grove of Intel. And people use that in front of their strategic plans and all those things. I, I think there’s something a little bit deeper and a little bit more cohesive that’s needed. And I call it a “One Minimum Easy”. It’s just my way of trying to help my clients. Remember it, and it’s called one minimum easy. And so the one is basically the first question; it says what the one thing I can do that is will add the most value if I do this and make everything else easier slash unnecessary. And that first focusing question is very important because as leaders or entrepreneurs or people in charge of big businesses, we have so many priorities like you were saying, right? Like there are so many things to do when the day starts. And if you are not able to quickly silence the noise and focus on the signal, you’re going to be ineffective. You’re gonna be doing a little bit of everything else. So part of what a team and a leader and a company need to do is be really good at quickly identifying every day, every week, every quarter, the one thing that will add the most value and focus on that one thing above everything else. Now, of course, we have multiple priorities. Of course, there are other things to do, but by orienting our focus on that one thing, and then we go into the second question, we then say, OK, now that we know what’s the one most important thing, the next thing is what is the minimum amount of work that we need to do to ensure its success? And so that’s the minimum part of it. And so for me, this is where another part that teams sometimes drop the ball is that you need to figure out what does success looks like for this one thing, right? And so maybe if it’s like, you are trying to have a successful sales quarter, that’s the one thing that, what does success look like? Well, it’s actually having a million dollars in sales this year and having a hundred clients. OK, good. That’s the thing now, what is the minimum amount of work? Do I need to get those a hundred clients? To get that million dollars. Then you say, oh, I need to reach out to at least a thousand. And I’m making this up to a thousand people in my newsletter list. That’s the minimum. If I do that, I can guarantee I’ll get this much. Right. And what this does, Jenn, the reason I think this is important is that a lot of times when we’re working, we are not consistent. New things come up because sometimes we feel like, oh my God, I don’t know if this is working. I don’t know if I have other things to do, but if you trust your own process, then good things come outta it. You know, that, look, I don’t know what’s gonna happen. There are a lot of things balls in the air, but if I just keep doing this every day until I get to this thousand people in my newsletter or whatever that goal is, then I know I’m guaranteed that outcome. Now, of course, you’re not always gonna guarantee an outcome, but it, allays your fears, you don’t feel, you’re not like, oh my God, am I ever gonna hit it? Am I doing too little? Am I doing too much? What is it? This is just a good way to help you create kind of this like weekly, daily, goal based on the minimum amount of work needed to establish success. And then the last part is easy. One minimum easy, right? So what’s the easiest and the quickest way to do it. <Laugh> so that’s the last part. And sometimes people overcomplicate and make things very difficult and much more work that has to be. But you figured it out. What is the success you need to do with the minimum work you need to do? What of the most important thing you need to do? OK. Now, what’s the easiest way to do it. And so once you’re able to kinda internalize this process, you find you’re just much better at executing. You can attack and handle anything that the team has to deal with, or you as a leader have to deal. That’s, that’s my one tip on how to kind of work through your execution is do the one minimum easy. Jenn DeWall: I think that’s a really great tip on how to approach it. And I think it’s an accessible way to look at it because people do drop the ball with execution. I think there are so many, we all likely can think of our own organizations and experiences where there’s a big idea, and they made it the focus for 3, 1, 6 months, but they never measured it. They didn’t think about what they needed to do. They didn’t have check-in points to adapt. They didn’t definitely, weren’t thinking about what’s the minimum I could do. And what’s <laugh> but I think having those frameworks gives people permission to think it through. And maybe that’s the thing that the objective might feel too broad. So then it is probably harder to execute, but I love your framework because it does break it down into, you know, we can focus on this now. And then, you know, action quiets anxiety. That’s where you can build your traction. That’s right. Nikhil Paul: That’s right. And you can keep going slow, smaller, smaller. It’s like, you know, once you figure out like, OK, this, this year we’re focusing on sales. OK. Well, then what is success look like for the sales? OK. Well, then I have to hire somebody. Then what does that look like? Well, then I find people. You keep cascading it. And that’s how you are able to quiet your mind from, oh I have so many things to do! I have to do this. I have to do that. Just focus on the one thing and the ultimate action. Set up Your Team for Success with Fun! Jenn DeWall: I love that. Any other final feedback that you would want to share as it relates to how a leader can set up their team for success? Nikhil Paul: Yeah. You know, the one last thing I’ll say is you, you wanna also as a leader, not only are we trying to motivate them and inspire them with the big purpose, you also wanna create these fun challenges. I think a lot of times leaders just are like, OK, and we’re going to launch this product, or we’re going to have a successful quarter. Try to make it fun. <Laugh> I know this sounds a little bit like loosey, but like you wanna imbue the work that your team is doing as a challenge. Right? And I call it kind of like a Goldilocks performance challenge. It has to be a tough enough goal that it really requires everyone to work together and work a little hard, but at the same time, it shouldn’t be too hard, but it shouldn’t be too easy either. Right? And so it has to be a right balance of hard and easy, and it has to be achievable and something very concrete. And also has to be urgent too. That’s the last part, I would say, make it a little bit of like, Hey, we have to get this done in the next weeks. And this is something we can do together as a team. And by creating, because it’s perspective as a leader, you’re creating the story for your team, for the work they’re doing. But by making it a fun challenge, you’re helping them feel excited to be together. They feel like they’re on a journey. And I think that’s the last part. A lot of leaders sometimes lose. You need to motivate your team by creating this narrative with the work they’re doing, imbue it with fun, with purpose and with a challenge and make it fun. And that’s the last part of getting them to work together as a high-performing team. Jenn DeWall: Make it fun. Yeah. You said it earlier. We, we spend a third of our lives at work. It’s a long time, and it can be fun. We can enjoy it. We can connect with our team. And I like talking about it from a challenging perspective because that’s where your team bonding is. What can we do together? That’s right. And add in fun incentives. It’s been a great conversation. Where do people get in touch with you? How can they connect with you? Nikhil Paul: Yeah, for sure. So obviously you can go to my website. WeRHuman.co – W E R H U M A N dot CO. And sign up for my newsletter. I, I write a lot about this kind of topic and leadership and teams, and I try to find fun stories from history and pop culture and share them and use the kind of window of teams and high-performance theories. But then I also post on LinkedIn a lot too. So you can connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on LinkedIn, Nikhil Paul. And yeah, I’d love to hear from you and hear some of the stories and insights that work for all of you as well. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for sharing your time, your expertise, your passion, and to everyone listening— cheers to a great 22 or 2022! There you go. <Laugh> I might as well fumble my starting an ending. You know, why not? <Laugh> absolutely great conversation. Nikhil Paul: Thank you so much. Thanks, Jenn. Thank Jenn DeWall: You so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you enjoy the conversation with Nikhil, and you want to connect with him, head on over to WeRHuman.co and there, you can sign up for the newsletter. And Nikhil also wants you to reach out to him on LinkedIn, grow your network, connect with Nikhil and see or ask how he can assist in your leadership needs. And of course, if you enjoyed this episode, don’t forget to share it with a friend, help a fellow leader, figure out how they can create the best team in 2022.   The post Set Up Your Team for Success in 2022 with Leadership Team Coach, Nikhil Paul appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Show Up as a Confident Leader with Award-Winning Author and Speaker, Bridgett McGowen Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Bridgett McGowen. Have you ever experienced someone’s energy that made you move to the edge of your seat, or you had to stand to your feet? What about the excitement that stayed with you and had you talking about it long after an event ended? That is the best way to describe Bridgett McGowen- an award-winning author, an award-winning publisher, an award-winning international professional speaker who is known to be both comical and memorable. She will not just energize you but inspire you not to let anyone or anything get in the way of you being the most unforgettable person in the room! Today, Bridgett is here to discuss what the most confident leaders do. Enjoy! Meet Bridgett McGowen, Award-Winning Author, Publisher and Speaker Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone, it’s Jenn DeWall. And right now, I am sitting down with Bridgett McGowen. She is a professional speaker, and Bridgett and I are going to be talking about what the most confident leaders say and do. Bridgett, I love this topic because confidence is something I think we all need more of, and we’re gonna be talking about your book today. But before we, you know, I feel like I’m kind of jumping the gun here. Could you just go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience, talk about who you are, what you do, who you even speak to as a professional speaker! Bridgett McGowen: Right! Absolutely. First off, thanks a ton, Jenn, for even having me on the show. And then, probably more importantly, thank you to the listeners. Thank you to the viewers for even tuning in really excited to be here. So my name is Bridgett McGowen, and I help professionals be the most engaging, dynamic, incredible communicators ever. And sometimes people feel like because they don’t have a leadership title like they don’t have a C-suite title or VP title. Then they’re not a leader. Everybody is a leader, no matter where they are positioned in a company. So what I do as a professional speaker is help people find those voices. So they show up as the most confident, the most powerful, most unforgettable people in the room. I do that via workshops, via keynotes, via conferences, via podcast interviews, right? And via writing books and publishing them and getting them out to the world. Jenn DeWall: I love that, Bridgett. And I think you also, you know, know. I love that you opened with the reminder that we all need to hear that regardless of your title, you are a leader! And your presence is going to be important to how you communicate and whether or not your message has the intended impact. And today, we’re gonna be talking about what the most confident leaders say and do. Out of curiosity, how did you even become interested in helping people develop this skill set? Bridgett McGowen: Right. You know, my goodness, I’ve never had that question posed to me. How did I become interested? I need to find a reader’s digest version answer to this! Because I could go all the way back to being Sunday school secretary <laugh> when I was like 10, 12 years old in this really small town called Livingston, Texas, actually it was on the outskirts of Livingston. It’s a really small community called Swartwout. And Swartwout was actually going to be the county seat of Polk County. But I am digressing, Livingston became the county seat, but maybe that’s where it started. I don’t know because as, as that Sunday school secretary, I had to stand up in front of not a large crowd, but enough of a crowd and deliver my little report every morning or every Sunday morning. And then, you know, you go off to school, and you have to do speeches and whatever we’re called upon to do, and you go off to college and so on and so forth. And I guess throughout life. I’ve observed people. I’ve observed myself, and I’ve stepped back, and I’ve said, what made people effective? What made people sit up and take notice? What made people want to lean in and listen to my little report every Sunday morning. What made people or my classmates want to lean in and see what I had to say when I gave my speech, or what have you in whatever class? What made people want to lean in and pay attention to me when I went out into corporate America or when I started my own business? So I think it was just observing and paying attention to what was the most engaging dynamic, incredible people do—and then making sure that I pass it on to others. Because life is too short to be mediocre, maybe that’s it. Jenn, just, just having myself in different scenarios and thinking, how do I make sure that I consistently show up and shine, then how do I take what I’m learning and pass it on to others. So they’re consistently showing up, showing out and showing the world what rock stars they are. Jenn DeWall: Heck Yes! I love, I mean, I hope that our listeners can heal your enthusiasm right now. And I love the curiosity that you just had from a young age to think about what makes a message stick. What makes things effective of what makes people want to do something as a result of a message we’re gonna be talking today about, you know, a little bit about your book. Can you tell us about your newest book, the re-release that you’re working on right now? Because I love the title. I think it’s so inspiring and motivating, and I think it’s perfect for starting the new year. Show Up and Show Out as a Confident Leader Bridgett McGowen: Yes. Yes. I fell in love with the idea of the book on a plane trip back in like 2020. Wow. Wow. That was probably one of my last plane trips before the pandemic. But again, I digress. I go off on tangents, everybody. I used to teach, and I had to always make sure I had an agenda either on the chalkboard. Yes. I’m telling my age, or as time progressed in my PowerPoint or in my notes, I always have to have an agenda. So I remember I was on this plane trip going out to Kansas. It was mid-January, and it just came to me in detail. How do you show up and show out? And I said you know what? I probably need to define exactly what that is too, but I’m on this plane ride. And I said, you know, can I come up with maybe three ideas, you know, one per month or maybe, you know, I dunno, maybe let’s do 52 ideas for the year, one per week. And so, with Show Up and Show Out, the subtitle is 52 Communication Habits to Make you Even More Unforgettable, with this being the second edition. So with that, each week, you get a strategy, a habit, a tip, a practice. Something that I personally use is where you get that habit, you read it on Monday, and then you commit to engaging in using that tool, using that strategy, incorporating it into everything you do that week. And then come Friday, you stop, and you assess just how good of a job you did with incorporating that new habit into your everyday interactions, be it on the job or at home. And I, you know, I shouldn’t say new habit because there’s nothing new under the sun, right? But it is given from my personal perspective of again, being from this small-town population of 5,019, and going out into this big world and just trying to find my way. And I provide those intangibles that we weren’t necessarily taught in high school or in college or in B-school. We, there was no curriculum. There was no class. And I think about what I just had to figure out on my own by bumbling, stumbling, falling, and then getting back up, right? So the book really focuses on helping you understand how to show up. Where you’re not only physically present, but you’re also mentally and emotionally present. Everything about you demonstrates for everybody watching that, you know, you are somebody and everybody had better recognize you are indeed somebody. And then to “show out” means, as you are mentally, physically and emotionally present, you are performing. You are behaving and interacting with others in a way that is extraordinary. It is uncharacteristically impressive. You are quote-unquote “on” at all the right times, which makes you unforgettable. You can’t get mad at somebody who doesn’t remember you if you didn’t do anything memorable! You know how to blend in. I love that. You know how to blend in when it’s time to blend in, and you know how to uplift others while you are simultaneously standing out for yourself. Jenn DeWall: My gosh, I love that. Because there’s a little bit of that adaptive leadership quality within that, knowing when it’s appropriate the right opportunity to show up or whether you want to sit back and observe, but show like, I think the title of your book is so commanding, right? Show Up and Show Out! It’s all on essentially your leadership presence. Like I think that this book is fantastic, and I dive a little bit more into it. So your book has four sections. Tell us about those four sections. Four Ways to Show Up as a Confident Leader Bridgett McGowen: Sure. So with the, so the four sections are how you look, how you sound, what you say and how you say it. And I strongly believe those are the four pillars of how everybody, how they show up in the world and that you have to pay close attention to each of those four areas. If you really are going to totally shine and just totally be again unforgettable. So the first section deals with how you look. This one focuses on improving your image and your nonverbal communication because sometimes, you may never get a chance to open your mouth and say anything. You may just be in the room, but if you know how to enter a room, you know how to move about, you know, how to have the right poise and the right stance and what to wear and so on and so forth. Then you want to focus on the how you look section of the book—the next section, how you sound. 1.     How You Look Jenn DeWall: Can I ask the question about “how you look,” because I, I know that this is so important, right? Perception is reality. How you enter a room, whether it’s fair or not, people will make assumptions. And I know I want to ask more about this because sometimes I think- I know we teach a leadership presence class at Crestcom, and one of the things that I received kind of like a curiosity point or maybe a frustration point, and I know that this is out there with leaders. Some people hate the fact that you have to pay attention to how you look. And it’s not necessarily a vanity game. I don’t want to say that, but it understands that depending on, you know, the culture that you’re in, the industry that you are in, there may be norms and expectations of what professional looks like. And it’s not to say that everyone needs to look the same, but we do need to pay attention to appearance. And so I guess my question to you is what would you say to the people that are maybe like, well, asking me to think about how I look is just a vain thing, and that shouldn’t count down anyways, you know? Because I’m sure, you hear that too. People are a little resistant to wanting to talk about that. How do you navigate those conversations with people? Bridgett McGowen: Right. It’s tough. I get it! Before we started recording, you and I were talking about how we revel in the opportunity to have on the sweats, no makeup, no lip gloss, no nothing. Right? We love that. And especially during the pandemic, when so many of us were working from home, we were working virtually, and you know, we’re in the sweats and conducting meetings from, you know, coffee shops and so on and so forth, behind the will of our cars while we’re sitting in parking, lots, making transitions and so on and so forth. And so I get it, and I hear you, but let me tell you something. Within a short amount of time, different sources will say seven seconds, 10 seconds, 12 seconds or what have you. In a short amount of time, people form an opinion of you fairly or unfairly justly or unjustly, accurately or inaccurately. You want to control as much as possible. The perception that people are forming of you. Now I’ll be the first one to say you can have someone who is suited and booted. I’m talking about— they have on the nicest outfit, the flyest shoes, the most expensive leather attaché case. And really seems to have it going on. But they have nothing in their brain. OK? The résumé says nothing. It screams, I do not know anything. Right? I get it. You have some of those people where they are dressed to the nines, and they look like they have their act together, but guess what? That is the perception that we have of that person. That person has controlled the perception that people have of him or her. And it’s not until he or she opens the mouth that maybe we are forming a different perception. It’s tough. OK? It’s tough. It’s a. It’s frustrating where you feel like you have to quote-unquote dress up for whatever the case may be. But if it’s important to you, the impression you are giving of yourself, your personal brand, the company you’re representing, if it’s important that people have the most positive perception of you and your business, then it’s incumbent upon you to do as best as you can to control the look that or the message that your look sends to others. Jenn DeWall: Yes. I thank you so much for answering that. And yeah, absolutely. I know that there are pieces that I dislike, but to look for the opportunities where you maybe don’t have to play it up, right when you and I did our pre-call, I was in a sweatshirt just enjoying the day, right? The days that we don’t have to, you know, get all polished, but we know that if we’re gonna go in front of people, then we have to take a different approach. And I wonder, like, you know if just people would depersonalize that and understand that it’s not necessarily about you, it’s kind of just that perception in is reality. And that your brain is doing all this stuff very quickly to form these opinions, judgments whether fairly or unfairly. I love that you said that. And just, you know, it’s not necessarily a personal attack against you. It’s just kind of understanding these norms that have been laid down of what that looks like. And I’m, I just really appreciate you answering that. Because I know, sometimes people struggle with that one. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. 2.     How You Sound Jenn DeWall: OK, let’s talk about how you sound. Oh my gosh, I love this. And I feel like if you can help everyone and how they sound, Zoom meetings will be that much more entertaining, meetings will be more engaging! What does how you sound mean? Bridgett McGowen: Right? And this is a tough one because I do understand that sometimes people do have these Hmm, slightly different sounds to their voices. I am very respectful of that, being from Texas myself, and as the years pass, I get lazier and lazier with controlling the accent that I have. I used to work very hard to sound like I was from the Midwest, but you know, once you get old like I am and tired. So I respect that sometimes this can be a tough one. But with paying attention to how you sound, it’s really because more aware of the quality of your voice regarding your pitch, your tone, your speed, and some other factors to put in place and some other habits to put in place those, those practices that are going to have you sounding as confident as possible. So it can be something as small as working on reducing the number of filler words that you use. So here, we’re not necessarily talking about pitch or talking about tone, but just the quality of the delivery of your message. If everything you say, or every sentence you say is littered with, “um, well, so, like, you know, well, kind of,” that if you’re using them every three words, it diminishes the quality of your message and it makes you sound less confident. So that’s one strategy that I have in the book. And I will tell you exactly how to reduce your use of filler words. Notice, I didn’t say eliminate your use of filler words, but reduce your use of filler words because using some filler words makes you sound human, right? But if you never use right, if you never use filler words, you almost sound robotic. You almost sound like you’re not even a human, and it comes off as being almost too perfect. And nobody wants to be around someone who’s quote-unquote, too. Perfect. Something else that I encourage everyone to do is to find their ideal speaking voice. This one is really, Jenn DeWall: What’s an ideal speaking voice? I love that! Bridgett McGowen: Your ideal speaking voice is the one that has people hearing the authority in your voice—hearing you speak with confidence that makes them sit up and take notice. It doesn’t sound unsure. It doesn’t sound too hyper. It doesn’t sound bored. Your ideal speaking voice is just the right intonation where it has you just sounding like a leader. And this is how you find your ideal speaking voice—you hum the happy birthday song! Jenn DeWall: <humming the tune to happy birthday> Mm-Hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm …so then you grab that one. Bridgett McGowen: That tone— the tone that you hear when you’re humming happy birthday—is your ideal speaking voice. Jenn DeWall: Oh, so interesting. And I like that it’s a way to – I don’t know. Because I feel like you, it sounds almost higher, right? It sounds higher than that natural voice. So it adds energy to it, which then I imagine adds like, you know, that engagement principle. I have to know this because now I know that I worked really hard, and I think the way that I really worked on eliminating filler words was just through practice and continuously getting feedback on my speaking. And obviously, I get feedback all the time whether I want it or not <laugh>, but I’ll take that feedback. And so I get a lot of practice. And so then that does help to eliminate those filler words. But what would be advice for someone that maybe is really afraid of public speaking still doesn’t know? Where do you even begin to start to eliminate those filler words? Bridgett McGowen: Absolutely. The first thing you need to do is even identify what your filler words are that you use and make a note of those. But here is absolutely my favorite strategy. And it’s to pause and say nothing. When you feel yourself about to say or like, or, you know, pause, don’t even let it come out and then move on with the next thought. It doesn’t even catch anyone’s attention. See just now. Did you notice how I said it doesn’t even <pause> catch anyone’s attention? I was getting ready to say before I said catch that the reason filler words happen is that you’re trying to think of your next thought. So you pause and say nothing. So you can think of what is that next word I want to say? And it comes off as a contemplative pause. So it’s not even range or noticeable. So whenever you catch me during this interview, during this conversation taking one of those pauses and you’ve noticed it probably pretty regularly right now, it’s because I’m stopping myself from using a filler word. And instead of using that time and that energy to pull up, whatever is the word that I want to say next. Pause and say nothing and try to figure out what is that word that I’m searching for as opposed to “um.” “Um” doesn’t get you any closer to the word that you want. <Laugh> Jenn DeWall: Yes. I love that—the pause. Embrace the power of the pause if you’re looking to eliminate your filler words. I think I have different filler words now, as I’ve tried to weed out the ums and likes. I think I have new replacement ones that I don’t even realize, but embracing the power of the pause! Because you’re right. It’s not awkward. If anything, I’m still engaged in the conversation, and I’m not noticing any type of big break, and it just allows the conversation to feel a lot smoother. And that’s such a great pro tip! Bridgett McGowen: <Laugh> and, and, and when you slow down, and you insert those pauses here and there, slower speech, you don’t wanna be too slow, sounded like dry eyes, clear eyes, right? But slower speech is also synonymous with confidence. It’s also synonymous with how a leader looks and sounds because a leader doesn’t talk like this all the time, and it just kind of keeps running worse together. No. So slow things down, and inserting pauses makes you sound more deliberate and more sure about your message. Oh Jenn DeWall: My gosh. And you’re right, and people can actually have time to process what you’re saying. <Laugh> Bridgett McGowen: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Because although you have all of the thoughts together in your head, it may not sound like rocket science to you. However, your listener is hearing it for the first time, from your perspective. So you’re spot on, Jenn. It gives everybody a chance to hear and process what you’re saying. 3.     What You Say Jenn DeWall: Yes. OK. So we covered are the first two sections, which are understanding how you look and then understanding how you sound. The third one is what you say. I love this, please. I think you’re gonna help a lot of employees by making sure and giving pro tips on this one. What does it mean in terms of showing up and showing out and how it, I guess, the impact that you have to, what you say? Bridgett McGowen: It’s about being more cognizant of the impact of your words on others, as well as the impact of your words on your image. So you are always showing up in a positive way. One of my favorite habits in the book in this section is THIINK before you speak, but think is spelled with two i’s. I use it as an acronym. So before you speak, ask yourself if what you are about to say is thoughtful, helpful, important, inclusive, necessary, kind, thoughtful, helpful, important, inclusive, necessary and kind. Now prior to 2020, I didn’t have that second eye. I didn’t have inclusive. Now, did it just strike me in 2020 that language needed to be more inclusive? No. Especially as a black woman that didn’t just come to light for me when we started to see the racial unrest, if you will, in the United States. So with this re-release of the book, I thought it would be, I would be remiss if I didn’t include inclusive in there now, am I saying that every single time you speak, you need to make sure it’s politically correct and then no, one’s going to be offended. And because it’s like walking on an eggshell. No, I’m not saying that because that is hard work. I’m saying just turn up the dial, just heighten your awareness of what you say. Sometimes, even something that’s innocent is addressing a group like you guys. Who has not done that? However, women may be offended by being addressed as you guys. It’s innocent enough, but because guys have a masculine connotation to it, some women may feel- it may be off-putting to them because it’s like, well, I’m, I’m not a guy, but OK. So then do you address everybody as, Hey gals? Right? So <laugh>, I’m not saying what you should say or shouldn’t say, but I am saying be more aware of your language and ensure that it’s thoughtful, that it’s helpful, that it’s important, inclusive, necessary and kind. And I talk, of course, more about each of those in that section. Jenn DeWall: And I think that is important. And I know it’s tough right now. There, there’s a level where I think it’s interesting, even when you watch maybe TV programs from 10 years ago on things that there’s no way that would air today. There’s no way. And I get that. It can feel like a little bit of a battle in some regards to make sure that you’re not alienating or hurting anyone, but it is just thinking about the filter. What would your audience feel? How could they feel? And inclusive language, I think this is still new, you know, I don’t necessarily know if they ever really taught, like, I, I don’t think about in the last 10 years, if they were like, let’s talk about how you can use inclusive language. And so, give yourself permission to know that this might be newer for you. And it’s OK that you might just be learning different ways to address a group. How to communicate with someone, because why does inclusive language matter? If you’re trying to show up and show out? Like, why does inclusive language matter? <Laugh> Bridgett McGowen: You have to think about it before I say something and, and, and I know listeners are gonna say, Bridgett, that is absolutely impossible to run through the list of everybody in the world. Before I say something to determine if what I’m about to voice is going to be offensive to them, that’s where I’m kind of going with it. You have to ask yourself if what I’m about to be about to say would it be offensive or uncomfortable, or just taken the wrong way by someone who doesn’t look like me? And I’m not just talking about physical characteristics. I’m talking about someone who doesn’t have the same level of the education level of socioeconomic status. Someone who doesn’t live in the same neighborhood you live in, work in the same industry you work in, who doesn’t, you know, any, anything, any physical characteristics, anything. So it’s not so much about physical characteristics as it is just everything. I, when you, when you stop and ask with someone who just does not quote, unquote, look like me is not in the same circumstance does not have the same set of circumstances does not have the same experiences doesn’t come from the same background. Would this bother him or her? And it’s important as a leader because it shows you care. It shows compassion. You see leadership. It isn’t just about being able to have fantastic ideas and move a team forward and be on leaderboards and have sales skyrocketing through the roof and wonderful customer bases and all of those things that we love as business owners. We could go on down the line, right? In spreadsheets and dollars and cents. It’s not that leadership. It isn’t just about that. And being able to lead teams to victory, but it’s being able to understand, there are some things underneath the surface, underneath the spreadsheets, underneath the data points, underneath the marketing tools, there are other pieces that are important to connect to humans. See when you can connect to humans on personal levels when you can respect our differences and be cool with them. I’m OK that you are. You are not exactly like me. I’m OK with it. As a matter of fact, I love it. When you are able to demonstrate that you’re cool, comfortable, collected. You know, cool as a pickle in December, then you show that you care, and you show that you respect people for who they are and for what they bring to the table. And you know that your company, it couldn’t be what it is without each one of these incredibly talented members of your team, your company, couldn’t be where it is unless they were there. And when you show that you care and that you recognize what everybody brings to the table and not only what they bring to the table, but that you always want them to feel respected and honored on some level. When you show that, you have people showing up in the most impressive ways for your team. 4.     How You Say It Jenn DeWall: Right? And it’s so important, that piece is so important. Just being able to communicate in a way that makes people feel seen. And I think if we haven’t maybe hit the nail on the, or directly on the head with this, this is emotional intelligence. This is your ability to observe what’s going on. Be mindful of the environment of the relationships Of how you’re showing up. This is emotional intelligence. You’ve got to slow down to speed up. So let’s go into your fourth piece. It’s not about what now? It’s not about what you say. It’s about how you say it. Bridgett McGowen: Mom taught us that, right. Mom taught us. It’s not what you say. It’s how you bad, but we’re taking it another level where in this section of the book, I have you examining and improving the entire packaging of your message, where you are thinking about how is this going to impact me, my company, others, everybody, and understanding that, how do I put it? It’s, you know, the loudest one in the room. It isn’t the fiercest one in the room. And it is knowing that you can command attention and be commanding without even saying a word. And it’s understanding that when you show up and show out, you, you, you can be comfortable with silence. When you show up and show out, you treat every day like it’s the most critical day of your company’s life or your team’s life. It’s game day. When, when you show up and show out, you fully understand how to be the very best version of yourself. You know that you don’t have to be on 24/7, but that you are on when it matters. And that you can totally turn it off. Whenever you are alone, you’re quiet. You have a moment, but you know that when it matters, when all eyes are on you, that it’s time to be on. You know that it’s important that you. Wow, just think about everything. Every move that you make, every word that you say you and, oh my goodness, I could, I could just go on and on. When you show up and show out, your words are matching your actions. Your actions are matching your words. You’re one of those people where you keep pressing the accelerator when everybody else is putting on the brakes, and you don’t feel the need to be anyone but yourself; you’re not intimidated by anybody or anything. When you show up, and you show out, you always find value in others and appreciation for others. You don’t have to be the one where the spotlight is always shining on you. When you show up, and you show out while everybody else is hitting the emergency button, the panic button, you, you moved on. You’re looking for a solution to address the emergency. See, it’s just about thinking about every move you make. And every word you say, think about what message does it send. You, you move in silence, and you, wow. The crowd, you don’t worry about what went wrong. You don’t worry about the competition. You, you look at it, and you pay attention to what’s going on. You look at the competition and make some adjustments about what you’ll do differently, but you don’t stress too much about it. You learn from the past, you learn from others, you focus on what you want to achieve and keep moving forward. You know, oh, I love that section of the book because I just really talk about just, just the entire packaging of how you show up. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. It sounds like it’s a mindset. If we’re talking about, you know, what confident leaders do and say, and how you can show up confidently, you have to have the mindset that you are worthy, valuable and have something meaningful to say. And I think that’s important because it goes with it. It just puts intentionality within your communication that all of the communication can be that much more impactful if you set some intention with it. Have a mindset going into the meeting or before you send the email because that’s how you say it. People can tell if you are- Bridgett McGowen: BS-ing is what we’re going to call it. Jenn DeWall: Yes. People can absolutely tell they may not call you on it. Actually, that is just a funny thing, because I think most people, you know, I, this is a quote that a participant shared with me once, and I really like it- empty wagons rattle. And just essentially that people don’t have, you know, you can tell when someone doesn’t have something going on. And I love that. And you know, I think to those that think that, oh, I don’t really need to think of it, or I can just wing it. People can tell, people can tell, and they may not say anything to you, but they can tell, like, I’m curious what you think to the people that are like, oh, I don’t need to do this. It’s fine. It’s fine. I don’t need to slow down. I’m sure my communication is fine. And they think they might be pulling one over. What’s the, I guess, what is the cautionary tale of doing that? Bridgett McGowen: Right. Well, I’ll tell you this. If you like where you are, you don’t wanna move. You’re perfectly fine with the status quo. You’re not concerned with self-improvement, professional development, upward mobility, then completely ignore everything I’ve said! You know, the goal should be each day to wake up and use the 24 hours in front of you to put yourself and others in better positions than they were before the day started. You’ve got to look back over the week, over the month, over the year and say, am I better? Have I made others better in this past 24 hours, in this past week, in this past month, in this past year, be selfish and work on you, but at the same time, spread it to others. So the cautionary tale is- if you are fine with where you are, pay me no mind. You keep doing what you do. But if you really want to show up as the most incredible person that you already know that you are, you just need to put it on display a little bit better. You just need to turn it up a couple of notches. And if you want to get in a position where you feel comfortable uplifting others. And I encourage you- and you just want, you just want more. You want more for yourself. You want more for your company, more for your team, more for your family. Then, showing up and showing out and really establishing yourself as somebody who cares, who’s confident, who’s a commanding leader. It only can bode well for you professionally and personally, Connect with Bridgett to Become a More Confident Leader Jenn DeWall: I got it starts with that choice. Bridgett, how can our listeners get in touch with you? We have been talking about Bridgett’s book, Show Up and Show Out: 52 Communication Habits to Make You Even More Unforgettable. How can they connect with you after the podcast? Bridgett McGowen: Sure. Please visit connectwithb.com. That’s connectwithb.com, and I have some special offers for you there. As a matter of fact, you can get the book to show up and show out. You can get that and enter the coupon code: PODCAST at checkout. So you can get free shipping on the book. So connectwithb.com and enter the coupon code: PODCAST at checkout. When you check out to get free shipping on the book, and if you would love for me to do a session with your team on confidence, what the most confident leaders do and say, how do you show up? How do you command a room? How do you make engaging presentations? I’d love to have a presentation, a shop, a webinar, a breakout with your team. And all you have to do is mention this show, and you’ll get 10% off the cost of that session. So connectwithb.com. Both of those options are there! Book a workshop, get 10% off, buy your book, get free shipping using PODCAST as the coupon code when you check out! Jenn DeWall: Holy cow! Those are a ton of offers. And thank you so much for offering them to our audience. Bridgett, I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you for giving the techniques and talking about your book. Show up and show out what a great way to start the year. Let’s see what 20 can be if we all show up and show out. Thank you so much for joining us, Bridgett. Bridgett McGowen: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jenn. Thank you, Crestcom. Thank you to the listeners. Don’t forget to visit connectwithb.com. I can’t wait to see you there. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It was so great to sit down with Bridgett and talk all about what confident leaders say and do. If you want to connect or book Bridgett to come into your organization, you can mention this podcast after going to connectwithb.com to get 10% off! Or you can go to connectwithb.com to purchase your autographed copy of Show Up and Show Out and get free shipping by using the promo code: PODCAST. If you notice someone that could benefit from this episode, please share. And don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform. If you’re looking to improve your communication style, or you want to up-level yourself as a leader, head on over to Crestcom.com and request a complimentary two-hour leadership skills workshop for you and your team.     The post How to Show Up as a Confident Leader with Award-Winning Author, Bridgett McGowen appeared first on Crestcom International.

Prioritizing Mental Health at Work Full Transcript Below: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we are talking about how you can prioritize mental health at work for yourself and others in this coming new year. There is no better time than now where people are very much needing support in managing to overcome mental health challenges. And it means that no longer are you, as a leader, able to not address this, as people are likely bringing this into their workplace, and you may also be experiencing symptoms or health challenges yourself. But here’s the thing that I want you to know. You are not alone. According to the World Health Organization, mental health conditions and substance abuse have increased 13%. Over the last few years, we know that the pandemic has taken a huge toll on mental health. And in 2019, almost 60% of full-time U.S. Workers reported experiencing at least one symptom of mental health, at least one. And that’s up from 75% in the last year. So mental health challenges are continuing to grow. What’s interesting is that mental health symptoms are equally prevalent across all seniority levels. So it doesn’t matter what your role is in your organization. You may be experiencing mental health challenges. It’s not something that’s just reserved for people that we perceive as having the more high-stress job. It can truly impact everyone. And here’s why you need to care. In 2020, mental health support went from a “nice to have” to a true business imperative, meaning it’s something that you want to offer and create space for it for yourself and your employees. Why is Mental Health at Work Important? So why do we need to care and talk about mental health at work? Why do we need to? Well, not only did we just talk about the increases over the past few years in the need or people experiencing mental health issues but why do we need to care about it? Because mental health impacts everyone! Every single person in your workplace. And here’s a tip that I want you to think about. I want you to think about this, to practice your own empathy and compassion, a picture that every single person that you come into contact with is, you know, inside and outside at work is carrying what we would look at as an invisible suitcase. It’s something that you can’t see, and that invisible suitcase is going to impact how we show up, how we respond, how we make decisions, solve problems. And it’s something that if we don’t ask our employees or even ask ourselves, we not be aware of the impact of an invisible suitcase. So the content- think about this each and every one of us- when you’re going to meet someone for the first time, you can picture that they have their own invisible suitcase of stuff that you cannot see. You may not be able to see their values, any underlying health conditions, a disability, the trauma and pain that they’ve experienced, or any other type of past experience. Maybe it could be past experiences with prior employers. The invisible suitcase also contains experiences from our upbringing, from the culture and which we were raised. Our worries about the future, our worries about the present, our hopes, dreams, and fears. And this invisible suitcase, if you don’t pay attention to it, you may miss indicators or points of connection to be able to support someone with mental health challenges. What Impacts Mental Health at Work? But let’s talk about the things that exist today within the workplace that people are experiencing. What can impact mental health? Well, first, we know burnout and stress, and as much as I wish that burnout and stress may have been resolved with people taking some time off over the holidays, it seems to be creeping back up in 2022. So we want to be mindful of burnout and stress for our teams and employees that may be asked to do more with less. Or other things that can impact mental health are our feeling of psychological safety. Do I feel safe at work? There are global events, the social climate, our health and lifestyle, grief and death, racism, bullying, discrimination, our families and friends, conflict, our economic circumstances, and even the economy. There are so many things that impact our mental health that it’s hard to argue that people do not or cannot have mental health challenges. Mental health can impact every single person, but let’s talk specifically about work. The work-related risk factors that can contribute to mental health challenges are inadequate health and safety policies. Maybe you’re not doing things that are in the best interest of that employee’s health, or maybe it’s poor communication and management practices. Maybe there’s a lot of change or ambiguity, and people feel that there’s too much uncertainty. So it’s creating stress or limited participation and decision making people feel like they don’t have a choice or a say in what their work looks like. Remember, people want that autonomy. They want to feel valued. They want to have that ownership, but when they don’t have that participation or the opportunity to contribute, it can trigger mental health consequences. In addition, other work-related risk factors can be, maybe you have inflexible working hours. You can’t accommodate someone’s personal needs. Maybe they have to take an appointment or something like that. So we want to be mindful about creating flexibility and, of course, a low level of support. When we are in a place where we feel like we’re going into the office or a workplace, and we don’t have a leader or a support system there, it can make us feel isolated and alone. Is Mental Health a Concern at Your Workplace? And so the question that I want you to ask yourself is, is mental health a problem at your workplace? Here’s how you might be able to identify it because it impacts our relationships. If I’m not feeling the greatest if I am feeling more anxious or depressed, or the variety of different mental health symptoms, I may not be showing up at my best. I may not be listening to people. So it’s going to be impacting the relationships that I have with my team. Of course, it’s going to impact my stress and physical health, my ability to make decisions, how I resolve conflict when I’m not feeling like my best self, I’m not showing up into a conflict conversation with curiosity. I may be showing up to it within indifference. And so, we want to be mindful of that. And mental health will also impact your workplace turnover and engagement, people’s ability to be creative, and their overall resilience. And here’s a news flash for you. If we’re talking about managing our mental health in 2022, one of the myths that I want you to let go of is that resilience is all about toughing it out. As a matter of fact, it’s the opposite. Resilience is not toughing it out. It’s asking for help. It’s taking care of yourself. It’s not just pretending it’s not an issue and swallowing it down. Mental health— to truly manage it means addressing it. Myths About Mental Health at Work We have to have a certain level of self-awareness, but let’s talk about the other mental health myths that exist. Oh, maybe there’s the myth in your workplace that mental health conditions are uncommon. If you were listening to the earlier part of this, it is extremely common! Or maybe you were raised with that perspective of what I would call traditional leadership that mental health should be dealt with outside of the workplace. It has nothing to do with work. Well, let’s be honest. Think about how many times you maybe have disrupted sleep because you were worried about something that happened at work. Mental health is something that happens in the workplace and outside of the workplace, and it has to be addressed. Some other mental health myths, mental health defines you in your career. No, it doesn’t. And if it does, maybe that’s an indication that you’re in the wrong environment. Mental health does not define you. Because you may have mental health challenges, it does not mean you are less-than. It does not mean that you are not as valuable. You are an individual that is in need of help, and give yourself some grace. Another mental health myth is that mental health conditions are permanent. These are things that we can work through. Granted, you have to take that opportunity to ask for help. And the last few mental health myths are that mental health problems are a sign of weakness. No! Mental health, your challenges, how you overcome them, demonstrate your strength. Do not ever let anyone tell you that your mental health, or challenges with it, make you less-than as a human being. And also, the last myth about mental health that I think is important to talk about is that only other people need therapists or someone to talk to. From my perspective, as a coach, every single individual needs either a coach or a therapist, someone that can help them get outside of their head. So we don’t bottle up our problems, our pains, our worries, and then allow them to further impact us. We need to talk about it. You deserve to talk about it. And here’s my PSA to maybe people that have felt like they didn’t have a voice. And I’ll talk about one stereotype, which is that men shouldn’t have emotions. If you are listening to this, you have emotions. I don’t care what your gender is. I don’t care what your background is. You deserve to be able to talk about them. A Leader’s Role in Managing Mental Health at Work Now let’s quickly talk about what your role is as a leader in managing mental health at work. The tip is that you want to see the whole person just as we talked about with that invisible suitcase, everyone has it. There are many things that you’re not seeing. You only see the things that are at the surface level. Things like their success or what they post on social media, the title, their background, their physical appearance, how they might be showing up. But what you might be missing is their hard work failure, discipline, disappointment that they’ve had, or rejections, maybe they’ve applied for a job within your workplace, and they didn’t get it. And it’s going to impact their ability to feel valued. Or what you don’t see is their perseverance, how they have to overcome certain challenges or problems in their lives to be able to show up and be the best that they can be. You also don’t see that that person’s self-doubt, that language, how they’re communicating to themselves, either supporting or not. You also don’t see courage, dreams and goals—life outside of work. Your role as a leader is to dig beneath the surface, to make sure that you understand that person as an individual, not just those things that are very easy to see, such as what they post on social media or how they might appear at work. Be Mindful of Triggers And your job as a leader is also to be mindful of the triggers that can take place with mental health for different people. It could be holidays. It could be that toxic work environment or feeling included in the scene, which comes down to psychological safety. What you also may not realize is that blame- blaming someone- “oh, you did this” can also trigger mental health judgment, chronic busyness, organizational changes. These can all trigger mental health impacts, but before you focus on anyone else, I want you to focus on that whole person, but you have to start with focusing on yourself. Ask for Help So how do you support your own mental health? First and foremost, you have to talk about it. Don’t pretend that by bearing it down, it’s going to somehow resolve itself. No, it’s going to fester beneath the surface, and it’s going to impact how you show up! Another way that you can support your own mental health is by finding a coach or a therapist. It, someone that is there, that is their role is just to listen to you and to help you in that circumstance. Practice Healthy Habits Also, pay attention to your lifestyle. Are you getting enough sleep? Are you maybe relying on substances too much? How are you eating? We want to be mindful of our lifestyle because it will feed how we show up. And the last few are to practice boundaries, making sure that you’re not just saying yes to everything! Make sure that you’re protecting yourself and your time. That you’re giving yourself permission to do the things outside of work that fuels you, that make you happy. Maybe it’s spending with your children. Maybe it’s pursuing a hobby, but you need to set boundaries to protect your time and yourself. And the last piece, most importantly, how to support your own mental health, is to practice self-love. You have got to love yourself. Bring Love to Work Now again, I know that we don’t talk about love so much at work, but self-love. When we love ourselves and value ourselves, it can make a huge impact on how we show up with our team. We may be a lot kinder. We may have more empathy and compassion. We might be able to see that other person in a different way. And also, we have more confidence that even in the face of adversity, we can persevere. So other tips on how to prioritize your health- let go of perfection and redefine what success looks like for you. You may have had a past definition of success that said in order to be successful, and you have to do everything perfectly. Well, now might be the time to rewrite that definition of success. If everything needs to be perfect, that triggers to me that I have to work nonstop and that I’m never good enough, which is only going to trigger impacts on my mental health. But if I redefine success, as my definition is that every single day, I am learning and growing. That gives me permission to make mistakes. That gives me permission to ask for help. So make sure that you’re redefining success. Also, embrace who you are when you embrace who you are, and you practice self-love. You see your values, strengths, blind spots, limitations. You can extend that same grace for others. You can see the value that they bring, and you can also help them overcome their own challenges and blind spots. Another way to prioritize your mental health is to stop comparing. Many of you may know the expression “comparison is the thief of joy.” When we compare ourselves to other people, then we’re telling ourselves in some way, we’re getting life wrong. Our life is awful, and that’s only going to perpetuate challenges to our mental health. Accept Limitations And another tip about how to prioritize your mental health at work is to accept that not all work will get done. There is likely not enough time of day to be able to account for maybe those “got a minutes” or the last-minute fire drills. So accept that. Not all your work will get done in one day. And don’t put that pressure on yourself to have everything buttoned up. It’s just simply not a reality in the modern-day workplace. Do your best, which brings me to the final point on how to prioritize your mental health. Give yourself some grace. You are perfectly imperfect. You are a human being. You deserve to give yourself kindness. You deserve to give yourself permission to make mistakes and learn from them. Give yourself some grace. And another tip, which we should all be doing, is to take that social media break. When we go to social media, it can trigger feelings of inadequacy, not enough-ness. Oh my goodness. I’m failing at life. And also, if you’re a parent and you’re constantly on social media, it demonstrates to our children who already have challenges with using their phones, that they too need to stay on social media. So be the example, demonstrate to your family, to your colleagues, that we don’t need to be connected to our phones at all times. Tips for Supporting Mental Health at Work Now, in conclusion, I want to share just a few tips on how to support mental health at work. Number one is to make mental health a priority. Mental health is a person’s condition with regard to their psychological and emotional wellbeing. You want to acknowledge it and know what it is and understand that mental health looks different for everyone. The facets of mental health affecting people could be anxiety and depression, grief, change, stress, racism, bullying, discrimination, culture, workload, values, conflict. These are all facets of mental health, so it’s going to look different for every single individual. We all have different triggers, but if you’re trying to observe whether or not someone on your team might be impacted or going through a mental health challenge, potential signs could be: a loss of interest in engaging in activities previously enjoyed; social withdrawal or not connecting or initiating conversation in the way that we once were; difficulty concentrating; changes in sleeping and eating; extremely high and low moods; and of course, overwhelm and worry. These are signs that we can notice in others, and we can also pay attention and reflect and think, do I have any of these signs? Walk the Walk So tips to make mental health a priority at work. Walk the walk- make sure you’re talking about it and that you’re prioritizing your own mental health. That way, you can remove the stigma around mental health and make sure that you get outside, encourage walking meetings and also, shorten your meetings! Give people an opportunity, especially if they’re still in a remote environment, to take care of things throughout the day, or have five minutes less of a meeting so they can let their dog out or maybe grab a snack. And of course, tips to make mental health a priority, establish norms, set the expectation that it’s something that you want to see on your team. And, of course, create training and development around it. Make sure that people understand that mental health is something serious and it’s something that you want them to address. Give them the tools that they need. And, of course, practice empathy and compassion. So, what’s the difference? Let’s talk about the difference. I know a lot of people may get confused with the difference between empathy and compassion, but I’m going to talk about it from the perspective of pity, sympathy, empathy. Pity is Hey, I see someone, and I acknowledge that you’re suffering. Oh, that stinks. Sympathy is I care about your suffering. Empathy is I feel your suffering. And compassion is I want to relieve your suffering. Your goal as a leader is to practice more compassion and empathy. To understand and see things from another person’s perspective. Communicate Mindfully Tip two, to help manage mental health at work, is to be a mindful communicator. That means to think before you speak, be open and transparent, reduce ambiguity. People do not thrive in ambiguity. To reduce that when possible. And of course, be an active listener and set clear expectations, be inclusive and pay attention to self-talk. When someone is Sharing, Remember to W.A.I.T. One quick tip. If you are trying to listen to someone as they’re sharing it, I want you to consider this acronym, which is common. It’s WAIT. Why Am I Talking? Ask yourself that when someone is sharing or confiding, be an active listener and ask yourself to WAIT, ask yourself, why am I talking? This will give you permission to recognize that you are there to listen, not to provide your own guidance, opinion or feedback. Embrace Flexibility So number three, if we wanna support someone’s mental health, we have to embrace flexibility, which means that we have to be open to new ways of thinking. Assume positive intent. If someone is asking for maybe a late start in the day because they have a doctor’s appointment, assume that they’re telling you the truth and that they wouldn’t be asking for this accommodation if they didn’t need it. So, of course, be curious and trust. And here are some quick tips to keep an open mind, get out of your comfort zone, practice, doing things that make you uncomfortable or scare you. Ask questions open-ended questions, avoid assumptions, and stay calm and curious. Be Inclusive The fourth tip to make mental health a priority at work is to practice mindful community in using inclusive language. I see you. I feel you or even reflecting is what I’m about to say, going to be productive. And if not, is it worth saying and understanding the role that bias plays on how we see things and always try to create psychological safety for our team members. We need to feel safe at work. When we feel safe, we have the freedom to feel like we can make a mistake without repercussion. Or things aren’t going to be held over our head, or we’re not gonna be yelled at when we can create psychological safety. That is one area that we can soften the impact of mental health that can provide clarity for people to do their job and be mindful of creating opportunities for everyone in your workplace, regardless of your circumstance, think about the unique people that might be caretakers or parents right now in this virtual/hybrid world. What additional support do you need to provide for them so they can be their best self? Check-in Frequently Now the final tip for focusing on mental health at work is to make sure that you’re always checking in frequently, that you’re building in water cooler talk. If we want to see the whole person, that means we have to have time to see the whole person. So you need to get to know your people as people. Make 2022 the Year of Mental Health Now, I hope you enjoyed this podcast today. And I hope the takeaway is that this is your year! Your year to focus on your own mental health. Mental health will determine every single thing that you do or do not do. How you respond to things, and the type of leader that you can be. So I hope that you task yourself to make mental health a priority in 2022. It’s a serious subject. And it’s something that we want to address. And by the way, if you address your mental health, think about the door that you can open for other people to take hold and control and help and manage theirs! Until next time!   The post Minisode: Prioritizing Mental Health at Work with Jenn DeWall appeared first on Crestcom International.

DEI and Leading Below the Surface LaTonya Wilkins, Founder of the Change Coaches Intro: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with LaTonya Wilkins, who is the founder of The Change Coaches, LLC, and LaTonya works with C-Suite and executive leaders, teams where human connection and cultural change really happen- below the service. Latonya is a credentialed coach, author, and sought-after keynote speaker, who has inspired audiences all over the world. And today, LaTonya and I are going to talk all about how you can make DE&I a part of your everyday leadership. Meet LaTonya Wilkins Jenn DeWall: Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. In this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I’m sitting down with LaTonya Wilkins, and I’m so excited for this conversation cuz we are going to be talking about how you as a leader can bring DE&I into your everyday leadership approach. Thinking about what you can do in your interactions, in your communications with people, just even how you respond in a meeting to make sure that you are practicing things that build an inclusive culture that make sure people feel seen, respected, heard, and valued. Latonya. I have been looking forward to this, and I’m so excited to talk about your newest book, but please, for our audience that does not know you, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be and also your newest book? LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. Hi everyone. So I’m LaTonya, and I run a company called The Change Coaches. And basically, we help companies and teams create cultures of belonging. I am an executive coach first, and then I do workshops, and I also am a keynote speaker and master facilitator. Last year or sorry, a couple of months ago, last year. It does seem like last year, a couple Jenn DeWall: <Laugh> right. Everything in the last few years just blends together! LaTonya Wilkins: <Crosstalk> right! A couple of months ago, I wrote a book called Leading Below the Surface about how to build real psychologically safe relationships with people who are different from you. And I published that book as a culmination of the work that I do. And I culminated that with my experiences in the workplace being “othered” and also my experiences in the workplace of success. And that’s what I call below the surface leaders of the people that I’ve worked with around that. So that’s a little bit about me. One cool thing about the book is Amy Edmondson, who is the Harvard researcher who actually discovered the term psychological safety wrote my foreword. So that’s pretty cool. Feeling “Othered” in the Workplace Jenn DeWall: Yeah, that is fantastic. And this is a topic that we know has really kind of taken the forefront, and you described it as feeling othered for those that might not be familiar with what that can look like. What does it mean? What’s the definition of feeling othered? What does that mean? LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah, yeah. So that’s been my entire life. So let me talk a little bit about it from like a more childhood perspective all the way up to today in the workplace. So in my book in chapter three, I write my chapter is, is called humans were born to exclude, and I talk about my first experience that I ever remember being othered. And what that looked like is, I was actually in an art class, and I was drawing a picture. I was the only black kid in my class. I grew up in Iowa. And so there’s no one else that looked like me. There’s no one else had that, that color of skin. So I was actually conflicted on what color to make the face of the person that I was drawing. And I decided on a color that I, I think I decided on yellow, and the hair was purple. And when it came around to me, and I showed my drawing, someone told me that that’s not what that picture should look like and that I was dark and that picture should be dark. And that was the first time I felt othered. Everybody else shared their pictures, and they got applause, and mine was corrected. And that was, and that kind of went on and on. I talked about this in the book where, you know, on the playground, I would, I would get picked last for like Four Square or Dodgeball. And it kind of all started after that incident with that drawing and the workplace, the way that I’ve been othered. And some of you have probably been othered as well is when I, I don’t really fit into one category. Right? You know, I’m a black woman. I identify as a part of the LGBTQ plus community. And so whenever I was trying to go into, for example, join an ERG, for example, employee resource group, I had to pick one of them, and it was always hard. I was always the other that didn’t fit into any of those boxes. And so that’s what othered being othered feels like. Like you, you don’t fit into the boxes that are put out there for the masses, and you’re always in other. You’re always separate. You’re always the exception. Jenn DeWall: My gosh. Well, in one, I mean, I can only imagine how that felt to get that feedback when you were younger, just knowing that no one else had that same type of experience and how- I don’t know- just harsh that would feel or alienating just like I’m isolated over here on an island. And when we talk about it at work, and I know we’re gonna go into talking about what psychology, like psychological safety, looks like, you know, today versus before today, but why is it important to actually create an inclusive culture in the workplace? I mean, cuz some people I know in the lines of traditional leadership, they’d be like, oh, it’s just your feelings. You need to get over it. And you know, there are ways that I think people marginalize those experiences. And there’s obviously a shift now where we’re starting to see things differently. But like for those that really need to still hear this message, like why do we need to make sure that we’re creating a place to invite everyone to the table? Why is DEI Important at Work? LaTonya Wilkins: Well, and I’m gonna answer that with a question. Why wouldn’t we want to? I mean, humans are basically they can make or break your workplace. Like if you can’t hire the humans you need, you have no product. If you can’t hire the humans you need, you can’t manage people. If you can’t hire the humans you need, you can’t really grow your company. I mean, we’re not in the age where AI is as yet going to be as productive as an actual human being. So why wouldn’t we care about inclusive leadership? Why wouldn’t we care? Why wouldn’t we wanna make DEI a part of our regular leadership, our day-to-day leadership? And I always ask that with a question, if you are someone that’s struggling with that and you’re thinking this stuff is really not important. Why not? Why wouldn’t it be important? Because again, it’s, when you think about this stuff and the reason why I wrote this book is that sometimes we pigeonhole DEI into separate, but, and, and a lot of times, the way we talk about this stuff is it is, is separate, but it’s really a part of everyday leadership. I mean, do you manage people that are younger than you? Do you manage people that are a lot older than you? Did you, do you manage people that may have lost someone through the pandemic? Do you manage a worker that is a different class from you again, all of this has to do with inclusion? So I think again, I’d ask you why not, especially if you answered yes to any of those questions. Yeah. Jenn DeWall: Well, let’s talk about the difference between what psychological safety may be used to mean at work or what it was before people really started to have that as a forefront and something that we have to do. So what is the difference between psychological safety before or in traditional leadership versus where it’s at today? LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah, I don’t really think we talked about psychological safety as, as we do now before Amy’s work was, was really put out there. I think a lot of times, what we talked about before 2020, I would say, is trust, and we talked a lot about how to build trust in teams. Like that was the buzz buzzword. How do we build trust with our teams and it’s but trust in order to build trust, you, you have to have psychological safety? And that was kind of the missing piece. I think that a lot of people were looking for, they were looking, they knew what that was, but it had never been put into words. And what psychological safety means is that you know, you could speak up at work, and you could make a mistake at work. You could bring your whole self to work without any kind of punishment or repercussions or any harsh judgments, which when I found Amy’s work, and this is the reason why I asked her to be, to, to write my forward, I was like, wow, I haven’t had this in like 90% of my career. I’d never had it articulated like that. Did I trust leaders? Yeah. But that’s the reason why I trust the leaders is because I had psychological safety. So yeah, I don’t think again, I think we, we just, weren’t talking about it. It wasn’t put into the words that that, you know, how Amy put ’em into for us to be able to understand this and easily digest Jenn DeWall: I love that it’s something that’s at the forefront because even, you know, again, we’re not talking about DE&I as something that’s maybe exclusive to one particular part of that conversation. We’re talking about being able to have that ability to bring your full self, to work your full self. I remember the thing, you know, when I talk, when I think, and I’ve shared this example on the podcast before, but when I received the feedback, Hey, Jenn, you need to be more vanilla and more of a yes, man. And you need to stop laughing outside of the office. Those are, are all things that upon receiving that feedback, I wasn’t initially going into the, oh, what’s the coachable way that I can, you know, rectify this. I was actually going to a place of like, wow, I don’t actually add value or I must be too different to actually produce any value for this organization. Jenn DeWall: And you think about that for anyone. When we’re excluded, when we’re also penalized for who we are. What does that do for our own engagement? I mean, if you’re telling me that I can’t laugh and I feel like one of my things is the ability to connect with people and just see them as that. And that’s sometimes through humor at work, but you’re telling me I can’t do that. How am I supposed to show up? And on the flip side of that, when I did kind of pull back after I got the feedback that they had a conversation with me that, that I wasn’t supposed to do that, and it’s so confusing. And I just eventually like just created the sense of, I don’t know if this is the right culture that I want to be a part of. And I know that I wasn’t the only one that had those same types of experiences and maybe that one wasn’t related to the fear of failure, but that was definitely related to who I am. DEI and Psychological Safety Jenn DeWall: I’ve also worked in strong fear-based culture in that people kind of always felt like they were like – is someone, someone looking? Or just always feeling like you had to watch your back to make sure that like you weren’t gonna drop the ball or that someone wasn’t after you. I guess those are the ways that I’ve kind of seen psychological safety, maybe show up in a negative way in the workplace when we don’t have it. And what that does for the individual, or even just adding into mental health challenges or disconnection on teams. I said a lot there. I said a lot there. You’re probably like you are in circles, but I, I just love it because I, as someone that I don’t know, I wanna feel seen and maybe that could have something to do with my own childhood, of course. I wanna feel connected. I wanna feel like I matter. And that’s, I feel like everyone wants to feel like they matter. And so I don’t even get why this is kind of a conversation when I feel like it isn’t just being a human being. LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. And I love what you said because I think if you are a manager or you lead a team, and you’re listening to this if we’re trying to fix someone. Like when Jenn described what she just described, all the stories, it was someone trying to fix her and them, they, they didn’t have the right tools, and they kept buying more tools, and they didn’t work. And finally, Jenn left, if you’re trying to fix them, you’re probably not creating a psychologically safe environment again, for people to bring themselves to work their approaches to work again without repercussion or without harsh judgment. It doesn’t sound like Jenn had that. Right? And if you’re trying to fix someone again, it’s like hiring a marketing manager, and they only can market a certain way. And if you’re getting them trying to mold them into exactly what you want, they’re probably not feeling very psychologically safe, especially if you are constantly criticizing their work. And that’s the opposite of it. So thank you for sharing that example because there is a, there are a lot of workplaces that still try to fix their employees. And again, they don’t realize that this takes them further and further away from promoting a psychologically safe environment. Jenn DeWall: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love this conversation. So let’s, we’re gonna baseline it. And we’re gonna talk about, like at a foundational level, what is diversity, equity and inclusion, and how does that relate to leadership? What is Diversity? LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah, so DEI, honestly, I, when I wrote my book, I say several times in my book that it’s not a DEI book because I, I really think, believe that this is a part of leadership. And, and when I, before I wrote Leading Below the Surface, I read a ton of studies, and I did a lot of research, and the research supports it. If in order for this to work, it has to be a part of leadership. But what is DEI? Well, you know, diversity equity inclusion, right? Diversity is knowing your group, looking around, making sure that you have diversity within that group. Diversity does diverse, does not describe a person. That term is often used incorrectly, like “diverse hire.” There’s no such thing you could say, oh, I went diversity on my team. So let’s hire some different types of people. But when you say diverse hire, that actually causes friction in an organization. So I try to stay away from that. That’s not. That’s not really what that means. So that’s diversity. What is Equity? LaTonya Wilkins: Equity is another one that’s often misunderstood, and that’s, whoever is at a workplace, let’s say, let’s take B. And Jenn, for example, let’s assume that we’re on the same team. So whatever Jenn needs in her career to be successful, she has access. And I have access to those same things, not the same things that Jenn needs, but the things that would make me successful, I have access to those. All right. Equity is not a quality, like making it equal for me and Jenn it’s, it’s making sure that if I, again, that I have access to the things that I need in order to succeed and what that might look like is – like the what example that I’ve been talking to, someone, a leader about coaching leader about is there someone on their team that, that has a health issue and giving that person access to address their health issue as like the same way they would give that to someone else. Right? No matter what that health issue is, and the reason why I think this is such a great example is that for example, if there’s if someone’s having a baby, that’s something that people celebrate in our culture, but if someone has a medical condition that has a stigma attached to it, that’s different. Right? And so, you still have to give them equity. Right? My, that Jenn’s equity when she’s having a baby has to be the same as my equity when I have a disease that might have a stigma attached to it. So that’s equity. Inclusion- Jenn DeWall: I love that example. And I’m sorry, cut you off. Cause I think that’s a great example that people can relate to like, oh, my colleague is pregnant. This is so great. Of course, they’ll get time off. Of course, we’ll get that. Right. And you don’t hear people saying like, oh my God, did you hear that Latonya is pregnant? She’s gonna take all this time off. But yet then if you’re like, Hey, by the way, did you hear that XYZ is sick with this? Then we’re like, oh, they do not care. They must not do this. Like, I’ve never heard that way of describing. LaTonya Wilkins: That is or overweight. And it’s so true. Yeah. Like overweight, like things again with a stigma. There’s we don’t think about, or even people, kids versus no kids, right? Like, like what if Jenn has, you know, she could leave event three o’clock every day to pick up her kids, but you know, person B maybe I don’t have any children, but I need to take off at three every day to, to, you know, expand my education. Right, right. Again, are you giving equity? Is there equity? And it’s not equal, and it’s equity. What I need to succeed in my career might be different from what Jenn might need. What is Inclusion? LaTonya Wilkins: Inclusion is basically bringing in people that come from traditionally marginalized environments. I would say this also means in a way that shares power there’s a saying out there that says something like diversity is inviting someone to the dance, and inclusion is dancing with them. I hate that saying because it’s like, you’re not really sharing the sharing. The power would be, you’re actually asking them what kind of music that you want them to listen to. That’s real inclusion. Like not just dancing with them, but you know, asking them what type of dance they’d like to do or is, you know, asking the type of music that they’d like to dance to again, sharing the power, sharing the decision-making with them. Jenn DeWall: Oh my God. My, this is, and it’s so important to be able to understand that differentiation. And I like that you take the stance that Leading Below the Surface isn’t just this DE&I book. It’s a way of leading every single day. So let’s talk about where do people get it wrong? And I know we hit on a few examples, but where, so maybe it’s just in looking at this as like this initiative, it’s a strategy that we’re trying to do. That’s the first thing, but where do people get this wrong? DEI is Not the Side Dish— It’s the Main Dish LaTonya Wilkins: I think what people get it wrong again is it’s a side dish, not the main dish. And it’s the main dish, right? It’s, it’s going to work every day and practicing what I call the three prongs of below the surface leadership— empathy is the first prong. Real leadership’s the second prong. And that means relatable, equitable, aware, and loyal. And the third prong is psychological safety. It’s bringing that into your day-to-day leadership. Before I went on my own, I led learning and development teams, Jenn, and you know this. And so it’s in one of the things we always focused on were leadership, like leadership development and competencies, what these leadership competencies were. And these competencies were always like strategy, collaboration, like all those types of things. Right. You know, and they never had below the surface, like, or anything. Like, there’s never a lot of how we treat people. It was like what we were trying to manage to. And so it’s those again, it’s the how, it’s the, how we get where we’re trying to go. And that’s the advice I would give is to bring this into your daily leadership. You have to think about this again, as the main dish, it’s part of leadership. It’s, it’s part of everything that you do, you lead human beings, right? So you have to be on that level with human beings, like a computer, you have to learn to program a computer. So you also every day have to learn how to effectively build relationships with humans, especially those who are different from ourselves. Jenn DeWall: Do we complicate this stuff? Like, do we complicate it? Because sometimes I just, I really do think it comes down to, I love that you say it’s like, it’s the main piece. It’s not just a strategy. It’s a way it’s your how- how you show up as an individual. How in the heck do we get so far away from understanding how to treat people like that? And I know that’s actually a loaded question, and we could probably go a lot of different ways, but to me, in some ways, I just feel like it seems so, like, don’t be a jerk. Like understand that we’re gonna have different points of view, understand that we have different life experiences. And I’m gonna treat you as a human being and love you for being a human being. But yeah, yet, somehow we’re not able to deliver that because otherwise, this wouldn’t be a conversation. So I’m curious what your thoughts are. Like, why do we complicate this? You Can’t Mandate DEI LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. So there was an article that I cited in my book, and I also do a lot of leadership team coaching, especially with executive teams. I give them this article a lot, but it’s it was written. I think it’s an HBR article, but it was also appeared in Anthropology Today and in a journal, a couple of other journals, and it’s called why diversity initiatives fail. And like I said, HBR repurposed it in 2020. So you could go search that in HBR. You’ll find it. But it’s because we focus again on the wrong things. The number one thing that we focus on that’s overcomplicating it and making it worse is that we mandate the stuff. Nobody likes being told what to do. Okay. So when you start mandating things, then no one’s gonna wanna do it. The number two thing we do is it’s an us versus them. So we did- all these companies did all these trainings around. Hey, these are the different types of racial groups we work with. These are the kinds of, you know, women’s groups you work with. This is what disparate impact is. People want a role in making change. They want a role in culture change. So when you’re doing these mandatory trainings, you’re telling them what not to do. You’re not telling them what to do, and you’re not letting them kind of decide what to do. So again, the second thing is control. Again, we, we put these things out there. The third is training. So, and I hate this is gonna be controversial, but that’s also cited in the article. A lot of organizations just do training, and they stop there. Experiential learning is really what’s gonna help. Another thing that’s gonna help is exposure, exposure to different types of people in the world. So again, if you, in your organization, so again, if you’re siloing people and making them do training, and then you’re done after that, that’s not gonna work. But again, you have to have some way to practice this and reinforce it. And so, yeah, we’re overcomplicating it because these are, and that’s just a few facts of what the science says. We’re not following and practicing what the science says. Good. Where are we arbitrarily putting together these DEI functions? That’s what every company did in 2020, especially in 2020. They’re like, we gotta have a DEI, you know, a Chief Diversity Officer. I’m so excited. And then it’s a separate thing. And it’s disconnected again from leadership development. I’ve had that experience. I’ve seen it. So yes, we do overcomplicate it. Jenn DeWall: I like that, or I just appreciate that because I didn’t ever hear the perspective of, or I don’t know if I thought about it that way until you just shared it, that you’re mandating a way to treat others. And one of the pieces, I think that’s one of the undercurrents of a DE&I I, is also the ability to be curious with everyone. Yeah. How could I learn? What could you know, what experience do they have that I don’t have, and then you mandate it. And initially, it’s just placing judgment into a thing that maybe prevents us from even being curious in some capacities. Cause we’re like, well, I’m taking on this judgment. So I’m closing down the conversation instead of being like, Hey, what could be a different way that I could approach this? Like I never thought about that until saying, yeah, when you make it a forced thing, then you remove curiosity and then it becomes more of this us against them, like an argument that’s I don’t know why. I didn’t think about that, like as an obvious consequence of mandating this as a strategy, instead of just how you treat people. LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. It’s interesting too, because in social psychology, I mean, there are different types of control, right? There’s formal control, which is like policies and, and compliance and of course structures and systems, but then there’s also social control, which can be good or bad, but social control would be like, you know, your organization is so committed to, you know, DEI or having a culture belonging that there will be social consequences instead of formal hand lapses. Right. And, and so again, that’s another thing that orgs get wrong is like, they get stuck in this kind of compliance space. And again, I’m not saying we don’t need HR policies around some of this stuff, but it’s like a lot of times we put way too much energy there at the expense of the organizational or the social type of control stuff. Jenn DeWall: Well, and are you having the conversation? I think of an example I’d heard. Gosh, this is probably a few months ago of a set of employees from a specific regional office that was not necessarily happy about all of these new like DE&I initiatives and whether or not I agree with their happiness. I wonder if part of the reason that it also went wrong is like, there wasn’t a curiosity conversation around like what this really can look like and why it’s important. Right? Like they don’t tell the why, they just say, well, we’re gonna make sure we’re aligning with this. Like, but they’re maybe not taking the time to slow down. Like, Hey, here are the things that you may not have visibility to. And this is why this matters. Yeah. Leaders Should Get Curious about DEI on Their Teams LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. And as a coach, I think that’s important because as a coach when I coach teams, and we talk about, you know, building cultures of belonging and doing these human-centered design sessions, I always make sure everybody has a place in this. And they decide what their place is. And again, we don’t let people do that when we’re doing this old-school type of approach. As Jenn said, there’s no room for curiosity. And there’s also no room for someone to decide, like how they’re gonna make an impact. Right? Ahead of finance or someone that works in finance may look way different than someone working in HR. Right. And so letting them kind of decide, like, how do I wanna do this in my organization? Like, what does my commitment look like? And how could I inspire my team? And it’s different for every organization. Like we’ve we were talking about this too. It might be different also for US-based versus Global based. That’s why it’s so important to let people kind of give people like the base and let them decide, you know, the seasonings and everything else from there because then they’re gonna is more committed to it. Because it’s their own goals, now. It’s not the company, again, pushing things on them. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. They can take their own unique experience perspective and figure out how they can add value. I love that. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders for companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own a Franchise page of our website crestcom.com. How Do We Create an Inclusive Culture? Jenn DeWall: So how do you, okay, here it is? We’re gonna just simplify it. How do you create an inclusive culture? <Laugh> LaTonya Wilkins: Oh my gosh. Jenn DeWall: And that’s where your book is. And I don’t wanna make it sound in any way that this is just like a one, two, like implement these strategies, especially as we talked about like how mandating isn’t necessarily the way to go, but what are some things that we can do not mandating? What are some things we can do to create a more inclusive culture? LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. So earlier I, so if you are someone that is leading a team. Earlier, I talked about, you know, the three prongs of below-the-surface leadership, also in my book, I talk about different tracks of change. And so I’m assuming most of you that are listening are probably leading teams. And so, let’s take the leadership track. So you could create this on your team. You can, and I think there’s a couple of different ways to kind of get started again, the three prongs below the surface, the leadership, our real leadership empathy and empathetic listening, and then psychological safety. So first, study the real leadership principles I talk about in the book, again, relatable, equitable, aware, loyal, all the things, you know, DEI is kind of ingrained in there. That’s everyday leadership to show up and be a real leader with empathetic listening and empathy. One of the things that I found is that we’re all capable of being empathetic. We just don’t know how to access that. Right. It’s really hard for a lot of leaders to access that, especially considering the roles that they’re in. Again, leaders are there to fix things. They’re there to make sure that things stay on the tracks. And so one of the things you can do to start with is I challenge all of you to go to your next staff meeting and just sit back and listen and observe your team, observe how they’re interacting, observe who’s fitting in. Who’s not observe if they’re someone dominating, observe if that’s how you want these meetings to go—access empathy. Access, trying to get in other people’s shoes as they’re going through their team meeting this, I, this is so important, cuz this is again, this is how you start accessing empathy. And this is what I call person to belonging listening. So again, if you could do that and you can kind of follow up from there, that is gonna go such a long way with people feeling included. Cause I feel like you listen to them and that you saw them. And especially if there’s someone again, that was getting talked over or whatever. LaTonya Wilkins: The third is psychological safety, and this one’s hard, really hard to do. And I will, I will admit that. But one of the things you can do is provide some like an article around psychological safety. There are tons out there. You could provide my chapter on psychological safety. I have a whole chapter on how to create that on a team, give it to your team, have them read it and then come together and say, okay, now that you’ve read a little bit about psychological safety, how can we create that on our team? What are, what, what do you think are, are some of the ways that, that you think we could do this? And again, those are three easy ways. These are three accessible ways to get started with creating a culture of belonging, especially on your team and from there, then you could scale to your organization. But one interesting fact is like when you ask employees about the culture, their culture that they have and whether or not they have a culture of belonging. Usually, they’re gonna answer that question with their team in mind, not their org in mind. So start with your team. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. I mean, absolutely. You could see different ways that that manifests in the culture that maybe makes it not seem like a culture. That’s very like a belonging culture versus on your team, and your leadership might be taking the right actions to be able to make the right environment. I’m curious about the empathetic listening component because I think that, you know, if we wanna deep dive into that in terms of how that derails teams or why you need to start doing it, I think of first the piece of what are all the things that you’re missing just by not slowing down or by having your face down into your phone, reading an email, instead of realizing that you could have someone that’s a top performer that maybe feels discouraged or just not included on their team, that’s actually ready to think, oh, maybe I’m gonna go somewhere else, but you’re not paying attention. You’re not paying attention. So I feel like a lot of this is just right in front of you if you actually take the time to do it. And I think we complicate it again with strategies. What should I be doing? Paying attention. So I just think that’s a huge piece that a lot of people just miss out on like they’re too busy thinking about how can I get budget to, you know, give people more money instead of thinking what’s actually going on in my team right now that could create a bad place or a place where people just don’t feel like they belong. Listening Skills are Essential to DEI LaTonya Wilkins: Absolutely. And that’s like there are two different listening ways to listen that I talk about in, in the empathy chapter, once person-to-person listening. And that’s what you were described. The second is person-to-belonging listening, which I talked about earlier. Just looking around the person-to-person, it’s just, there are so many people of you have felt this way, where someone asked you how you’re doing, and you know, they zoned out when you answered it. Right. <laugh> and there’s too much of that going on. And so person-to-person listening is playing things back, you know, matching the energy of the other person. You know, trying to come from a place of curiosity and asking powerful questions. Like all those things are important, and we, frankly, do not do enough of it. As you said, Jenn. Jenn DeWall: What do you think like from your experience? Why do you think some people are reluctant to maybe come into this conversation? Like I, I would say what are the fears that may be a leader has for wanting to be more, I guess, curious with things, is it a fear of like a loss of control? Is it that they find things that they won’t be able to fix? Because clearly, there’s a reason that people are also afraid to address this in some way. And I’m curious, are there stigmas there stereotypes or just the, what are they afraid of? Why we’re not doing this, LaTonya Wilkins: The empathy part? Or all of it? Jenn DeWall: You know, I think the empathy piece, because it’s, you’re talking about person to person listening, and I sometimes think in leadership it goes against that or counters to traditional leadership, like this, we don’t care about them. Like emotions- they have no place in the work. Like they should just shut that off. Start With The Basics—And Practice Them! LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. You know this is really interesting because I do facilitation for some other companies quite a bit. Right. And one of them came to me and said, well, I don’t know if we wanna do empathy. That seems like a very basic skill. And a lot of the leaders came back and said, that’s too basic for them. I’m like, what? Like they don’t do it. So, so I think that’s what it is. I do think that it’s like when you’re talking about active listening, leaders are like, oh that’s, so that’s basic. And I’m like, wow. Again, and I think Jenn, I don’t blame the leaders. Again. I think it’s like we have these leadership competencies, and they’re like, these big pie in the sky things like strategy, you know, collaboration technology. And so again, the hows are like, oh, of course, I know how to do that. That’s common sense. But this is why we are where we are now. And yeah. That’s why we don’t do it again because there are too many orgs that, that aren’t considering these essential leadership skills again. Jenn DeWall: I just, I think that this is, I mean, it’s, I know that maybe I’m a little bit passionate and I want to, you know, just asking more questions because this truly is, we’re thinking about even making an impact your organization. Absolutely. Just seeing people, seeing them as individuals and practicing curiosity, or as you had said, even just taking the second to see things from another perspective. What about their request from you? Maybe it isn’t that bananas. If they’re asking for additional time off in the form of equity and support, what about blank, you know, or what are the things that you’re holding onto? Maybe it’s the example of like emotions shouldn’t exist at work, and people shouldn’t show that that maybe actually isn’t relevant in what we need from leaders today. I just, love this conversation because I think we’re truly finally moving forward and having open conversations that address the fact that we are all completely different and we are human beings with feelings, emotions, experiences, so on and so forth. And we want to be seen, I just, I don’t know why, again, we just shut the door on that conversation. But I think the work you’re doing is so important. LaTonya, what would be, you know, knowing that we’ve got to be close to wrapping up. I do wanna ask them where they can get the book, but what would be your final, I guess, tips or just something that you would want to share in closing with the audience to help them, I guess, feel the permission to actually start to find their own way to make a more inclusive culture. LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. So a couple of things I’ll say is we could all do this. Like it’s, it’s gonna take a lot of practice for some of us. It’s gonna take some rewiring, but we can all do this. The second thing is if you’re listening to this and you’re like thinking, oh my gosh, I was that person that thought listening was too basic. That’s okay. We forgive you. And we understand that. A lot of structures and systems and orgs need to, to be changed again to bring some of these principles that I’m discussing to the forefront of leadership, curriculum, approaches, leadership development. We’re not there yet. So that’s okay. So just be forgiving to yourself today, if you are one of those people that was thinking, wow, this is so basic, like this has to do with DEI? I had no idea. Yes, it does. And so that’s okay. The third thing I would say is I wouldn’t, don’t try to memorize anything again. Like I, I know a lot of times when I was doing talks, especially in 2020, when I was like, every time I did a talk, people were, were like, what could I read? I need to read a bunch of books. I need to do all this. That’s okay and all. But we gave you everything you need today. And you could just, just go instead of reading like 10 books and taking yourself even further away from your team, go out there and practice that empathy that we talked about. Go out there and talk about psychological safety on your team. Go out there and be more curious. Go out there and start practicing real leadership and embracing some of this stuff because this is really where it starts. So again, those are my tips and we could all do this and I I’m, I’m excited to see you do it too. Yes. Where to Find LaTonya’s Book, Leading Below The Surface Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, LaTonya! So, where can people get your book Leading Below the Surface? Where do they pick that up? LaTonya Wilkins: Yeah. So it’s on every site pretty much where you could buy a book. So if you go to LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, just LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, that’s where you could kind of pick where you wanna buy your book. Obviously, it’s on Amazon, and it’s on Bookshop, Target, Barns & Noble. So go to LeadingBelowTheSurface.com, and you can find a direct link. Jenn DeWall: LaTonya, thank you so much for just sharing your insights. Also, thank you for challenging the way that we look at this and how we can take it on to, you know, be a part of this where we’re feeling like it’s active everyday leadership. I just appreciate you breaking it down into like, a how, not a strategy. I love your perspective, and thank you so much for giving us a different way to look at it and approach it. LaTonya Wilkins: Absolutely. Thanks for having me today. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. It was great to sit down with LaTonya. I really enjoyed our conversation. If you want to connect more or learn more about LaTonya, you can connect with her on LinkedIn, or you can head on over to LaTonyaWilkins.com. There you can purchase her newest book, Leading Below the Surface: How to Build Real and Psychologically Safe Relationships With People Who Are Different From You. If you enjoy this week’s episode, please don’t forget to leave us a review. And of course, if you have any leadership development needs for yourself or your team, head on over to crestcom.com. We would love to help you develop your skill sets! Until next time.   The post DEI and Leading Below the Surface LaTonya Wilkins, Founder of the Change Coaches appeared first on Crestcom International.

Minisode: How to Cultivate a Growth Mindset with Jenn DeWall Full Transcript Below: Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we’re doing a minisode all around cultivating a growth mindset. And this was created as a result of one of Crestcom’s monthly webinars. So if you’re looking to develop yourself, head on over to Crestcom.com. We offer complimentary 60-minute webinars every single month on a variety of leadership topics. But here we go. Let’s talk about what it means to cultivate a growth mindset! Growth Mindset is About Your Perspective Jenn DeWall: Mindset is all about our perspective. We think if it’s a fixed mindset, you can even picture yourself in a box. When we’re in that fixed mindset place, we’re in that box, and it can feel really difficult to break out of it. We feel like maybe we’re stuck. That there’s nothing that we can do. And, of course, what we want as leaders is to feel a growth mindset. That feeling that that box is open, that there are more solutions available to us, and of course that we can make change happen and that we can always change. Comfort Should Scare You But here’s the thing that we have to know about a growth mindset. This is one of my favorite quotes. It’s one that I often share when I’m facilitating or speaking. And it’s all about comfort should scare you. Now, why does that matter? Why should comfort scare you? Well, as individuals, as leaders, our brain craves stability. We don’t necessarily love change. And as a result, we get into our comfort zones. And when we live in those comfortable spaces, taking risks can feel more challenging. Hearing new ideas can feel a little uncomfortable, and we then can keep ourselves stuck because we don’t necessarily want to put ourselves out of our comfort zones. And so the consequence of that for an organization could be maybe not pushing the envelope in innovation or looking for more creative ideas or as an individual, maybe you stop wanting to develop yourself. Maybe you think, well, I’ve got this figured out, that’s totally fine. And then you start playing safe, and you might realize that you’re not as happy or fulfilled as you once were because you’re not challenging yourself. So comfort should scare you. So what are we going to talk about in this minisode? We’re going to talk about the difference between a growth and effects mindset and apply a framework to adjust your mindset as well as create a strategy or give you tips on how you can develop a growth mindset on your team. So types of mindset that we’re going to be talking about today, there are many, there are many different ways to look at this, but we’re going to start with just talking about the basic, which is a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset. And a fixed mindset is simply defined as people believing that qualities like intelligence and talent are fixed states that cannot be improved through our efforts. And so what does, what are the characteristics of that? It could feel like when we embrace that fixed mindset, that we’re avoiding risks or challenges that we believe that, you know what, we probably can’t improve our intelligence or our strengths, or that you either have it, or you don’t. And sometimes, when we come from a fixed mindset, and we refute, and we receive feedback, we can actually feel it as a personal attack or criticism because we feel helpless, right? There’s nothing that I can do. That’s that fixed mindset. And we can then feel threatened by others’ successes. And we might even try to hide our flaws or mistakes. Fixed mindsets keep us stuck. They also put us in that place of personal attack, right? We feel like we have to defend ourselves, and this can be problematic if you’re working with others, as you might have more of a competitive or contentious relation, or if you’re a leader and you’re managing a team, and maybe you’re threatened by someone else’s strengths. True Potential is Unlimited Now our goal as leaders is to show up with that growth mindset, which is defined as when people believe that true potential is unlimited. And with effort and determination, individuals can enhance their skills and abilities. Now, characteristics of a growth mindset are embracing risks or challenges. Looking at those as opportunities to not only develop yourself but also to push the envelope to help your own organization or team move forward, that essentially says we can handle any task that comes our way. And then, of course, other characteristics believe that we can improve our own strengths. We can improve our intelligence and that no matter what, we’re always growing. If you’re not growing, you’re dying. So we always have to have that ability to see that no matter what the circumstance or problem, there’s always an upside within it. And when we have that growth mindset, and we receive feedback, instead of like the fixed mindset where we might defend or view that as a personal attack or criticism, then we look at this as, thank you so much. You’re giving me an opportunity to improve, to make a greater impact, to solve problems more efficiently and so on and so forth. And when we have that growth mindset, we can then extend that to others. We look at opportunities to develop others. Maybe even if they have a strength that’s greater than our own, we want to support others’ success. And, of course, we look at mistakes as learning opportunities. So if we’re trying to think about what this sounds like in our head, a fixed mindset kind of believes I’m either good at it, or I’m bad at it. Whereas a growth mindset would then say, I can always develop and learn, or another example, a fixed mindset. We either won, or we lost; we’re winning, or we’re losing. And of course, the growth mindset is that no matter what happens, we’re always learning, and we can always learn how to improve, do better and make better decisions. Growth Mindset or Fixed Mindset? The next time, think, Hey, a fixed mindset. I can’t figure this out. I probably won’t be able to, and with that growth mindset, I can’t figure this out yet. YET. We’re giving ourselves permission to not know the answers. And I think that’s something that’s really important for leaders is we often put that pressure to know and fix. And Hey, maybe it’s just an opportunity to ask for help to pick up a book, to do a little bit more research. It’s not that you will never be able to figure something out. It’s that you can’t do it yet. And that gives you permission to learn and make different choices. And it improves your competence because the thing about mindset, the truth about it is that it’s a muscle that requires discipline to maintain. We will always fall back into our comfort zones. Again, that’s our brain’s way of saying, Hey, stay safe there. So we have to be very intentional about creating and flexing that muscle of a growth mindset. Because mindset, if we don’t do anything, if we live in that place of a fixed mindset, it can impact our behavior. How we show up in certain circumstances, the choices that we make ultimately impact the outcomes that we achieve. Mindset will even impact how we cope in a situation. How do we handle when mistakes happen or when- you know what- something doesn’t go as planned. And it also gives us permission to learn to always bro, which then gives us that opportunity to challenge ourselves, to see how strong we are, how resilient we are. So mindset will impact our ability to be resilient. Think about the pandemic. All of us likely had to say, okay, there’s a lot of uncertainty here, but let’s focus on what we can control. I know that we can navigate our way through all of these challenges. There is resilience there. And, of course, when we have that positive growth mindset, it improves our ability to take risks. Both our organization, our team, and us as individuals improve our relationships. And of course, it makes us more adaptable. So how do you develop a growth mindset? Well, to talk about a mindset, we also have to talk about competence, which is a feeling of self-assurance arising from one’s appreciation of our own values and qualities or abilities. And when we’re confident or when we’re not confident, it will impact cultural norms. Maybe what we expect as, you know, desired behavior or what we even reward. It’s going to impact the skills and training that we pursue. If I’m telling myself and I’m not feeling confident, and I’m living in that fixed mindset, then I’m telling myself, I guess there’s nothing that I can do and then I’m not looking for opportunities to develop. Other things that also will impact our ability or confidence are, of course, our background and our life experience, or maybe we have felt rejected in the past. Or, of course, like everyone listening to this podcast, we’ve experienced self-doubt or limiting beliefs. And when we listen to those things that I’m not good enough, I’m always failing. Then, of course, it can make us feel like there’s nothing we can do. It’s keeping us in that fixed mindset. But here’s what I want you to know. Your self-worth is determined by you. You do not have to depend on someone to tell you who you are. Now that is confidence. We are being able to look within ourselves and see that I produce strength and value and that no one else can tell me whether or not I do. I own that at a basic level. I know my capabilities. And when we can see that within ourselves as leaders, then we can also acknowledge and appreciate the strengths of others, giving them permission to be more confident, giving them permission, to lean into their strengths and really let themselves fly. A 5-step Process to Cultivating a Growth Mindset So how do you change your mindset? It’s a five-step process, and it starts with checking in, creating a vision, doing scenario planning of the “what if”, thinking about the obstacles that you’ll have to overcome and creating a strategy to minimize them, and then, of course taking action. Check In With Yourself So let’s talk about checking in with yourself. That really starts with self-awareness, which is understanding your own emotional needs and drives to relate with others successfully. When we’re more self-aware, of course, we can solve problems better. We can manage our relationships. We understand our strengths and weaknesses, and most importantly, they understand our triggers. So if you’re working on fostering and building that self-awareness, things that you can do are to identify feelings and emotions, understand what’s really going on. What were you triggered by when maybe someone showed up late for a meeting? Also, practicing curiosity, how do you observe the rule or the world around you? The circumstances, the problems- are you reacting to it in a place from a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. And, of course, understand your strengths and weaknesses. When we understand our weaknesses, they can become opportunities, opportunities for us to develop or opportunities to delegate or get someone else involved that might have that as a strength. And of course, if we’re trying to check in with ourselves, we have to understand why do we make the decisions that we do? Do we do it from a place of fear of rejection or not wanting someone to see our flaws, talking about that imposter syndrome? Or are we making decisions from that place of possibility? Hey, this is how we can move the needle. This is how we can further grow and develop. And of course, if we’re talking about checking in with ourselves, I think there’s a relationship that we can all start to develop, which is giving ourselves grace, giving ourselves permission to own our mistakes, but not live there. To take accountability for them to do something different, to apologize, no matter what that is, when you make a mistake, own it to control it. Create A Vision The second piece is to set the vision or the goal. What are you trying to achieve as a leader? What are you trying to achieve as an individual? It’s easy to stay in a fixed mindset when we don’t have a vision or a goal because we’re not really sure what we’re working towards. So when we have that vision or goal, it can help us make better decisions, solve problems faster. It can even motivate us. Of course. And then, it also helps to foster our own resilience when a mistake or problem comes our way. If we have that clear vision or goal of what we want to achieve, then we can use that excitement, that enthusiasm—making that “Why”- Why are we doing that- bigger than your “But”- the but, or the reason not to. To help you make decisions and keep going. So if you’re talking about how to do, you set a vision or a goal, make sure that you’re specific, understand what you’re working towards. It can’t be something big and of building small and large goals too often. We just set a grandiose vision, and then we have no plan for how we’re going to accomplish it. So make those micro-goals or milestones to check in that know that each one that you accomplish is getting you one step closer to where you want to be. So, of course, you want to visualize and measure your progress and then also set a deadline for when you are going to achieve it. Do Some Scenario Planning:  What if Up/What if Down Now, the third thing that you can do to cultivate a growth mindset is scenario planning. You can think about this as What if Up? What if things all go right? Or What if Down? What if nothing goes right now? What if down can sound like this? What if I don’t do well on that presentation? What if I don’t get the promotion or the job? What if I bomb that interview? What if no one likes me as a leader? What if I fail? Now? We have a natural tendency to What if Down. Our brain is doing that because it wants to anticipate. Hey, if things don’t go our way, I want to make sure that we can survive and adapt. But the thing is, when we live in the What if Down space and we don’t move to the, What if Up, then it can keep us stuck. It can discourage us. And, of course, break our confidence. So our goal in developing a growth mindset is to practice scenario planning. So not only do the, What if Up, What if Down, which is what most of us will have the natural tendency to do, but then also doing the, what if up, I want you to expand your possibilities such as what if I do well on my presentation? What if I do get that promotion or a job? What if people like me? What if my team actually likes me? Or what if I succeed now? The benefit of scenario planning, of course, it gives us confidence motivation. It helps us make decisions faster and solve problems in a greater way. So how you can practice this in a situation that you’re going into, you’re already doing, the What if Down, which is the worst-case scenario, but then I want you to What if Up, which is the best-case scenario. So use Up to inspire you and use down to prepare. Maybe use that to talk about some obstacles that you might have to overcome, which is step four in cultivating a growth mindset. Identify Any Obstacles and Create a Strategy to Overcome Them You’ve got to identify your obstacles. Now here’s the thing about life. I wish that these weren’t true, but all of us are facing these circumstances. If you are doing life right, it’s going to be hard. If you’re pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, if you’re being vulnerable, if you’re taking risks, they’re not easy because we typically haven’t seen those situations or environments before. And you know, one thing we always have to look at, if we’re thinking about a fixed mindset or a growth mindset, it can be really easy to just say, I don’t have a budget. I don’t have resources. I don’t have this. Yep. You don’t have anything. And I know that for, as a leader, sometimes it’s extremely struggling to say, what do you want us to do? We have no resources, but here’s the thing. A growth mindset says we can still figure it out. I know it’s not ideal. I know it’s not what we want, but we can still navigate it through. So I want you to keep these truths about work and life in your head so you can understand them as not something that’s a fatal flaw. That’s unique to you. It’s something that you can absolutely overcome. Or another truth about life. You will never find the time for everything. If you want time, you got to make time, or you will always encounter someone difficult to work with. I wish that every single organization that I went to everyone was getting along grand, they love one another, but you know what? We’re all completely different individuals. We’re not all going to have the same communication styles or work ethics, or preferences. And so sometimes, yeah, conflict is going to happen. Or we may not necessarily connect with a coworker that does not mean that we have to leave our jobs. That does not mean that we have permission to be disrespectful to someone. That does mean that we’ve got to figure out ways to adapt. And another truth about work and life is that the only thing constant is change. You can always change. That is the heart of a growth mindset. You can always change, make a different choice, do something different, learn a new tool or skill you are not stuck with just because you’ve made a mistake. You can always change. And then finally, just as a reminder, every choice will either bring you closer to or further away from your goals. It’s important for a growth mindset to be more intentional with understanding how we’re making choices, navigating and perceiving our environments. So tips to identify those obstacles and why that’s important is that it helps us be more adaptable. When we understand the obstacles that we can potentially face, then we can create little strategies or at least have awareness around what could potentially come our way and then label it as something that we really need to care about, or it may not happen. So that’s okay. So how can you identify obstacles? Well, it starts with just maybe answering some self-reflection questions. What could impact your ability to be successful? Is it budget? Is it resources? Is it something that’s out of your control, and then list and describe the impact? What does that look like? And then determine, based on the impact, if you can proceed or what you need to do to minimize it. Another thing that you can do is also reflect, think about past obstacles that you’ve experienced. Maybe sometimes you have a tendency that when someone gives you feedback to shut down or to defend, and that’s probably not working in terms of solving problems or connecting with your team.So if that was an obstacle for you in the past, what are you going to do to manage that trigger or to embrace feedback in a different way today? And then, of course, create a strategy to minimize or eliminate that obstacle. Now, Take Action! Now, the fifth thing that you need to do for cultivating and growth mindset is then all about action. When we take action, it quiets our anxiety. It builds our confidence and helps with decision-making and problem-solving. And then it allows us to say and get feedback. It is what we’re doing, working or not working. And if it’s not working, how can we then take those learnings and make a different choice? So tips on taking action are to remember small steps over time. It does not need to be one big grandiose step or one big outcome. Remember, slow and steady wins the race. And of course, focus on the end result, build some enthusiasm. What are you looking to achieve? How is that going to help your organization, your team, or yourself? And then, of course, celebrate those wins. Now earlier, we talked about having a plan, having that vision or goal and breaking that down into smaller goals. This is an opportunity to celebrate mini wins! Too often. We wait until the end of a project or the end of something that we’re working on, and that ends could have taken a year. It could have taken a year and a half, and we don’t even celebrate until a year and a half later when we’ve been working our tails off to achieve something. Make sure that you’re building in opportunities to win. And, of course, be consistent. We know that we’re more not consistent. We can’t expect those results that are going to get us to that big goal. So take consistent, small actions and hold yourself accountable. And of course, remember when we’re talking about taking action, give yourself permission to ask for help, do not expect that you have to do it all on your own. Now, the final thing is that I’ll just share some tips on how you can build a growth mindset on your team. Things you can do are to practice frame storming, give your team and yourself the opportunity to look at the problem that you’re facing and think about all of the opportunities, maybe in the era of the great resignation, your team or your culture is facing the challenge of turnover. And instead of living in this place of scarcity. Oh my gosh, we’re losing people left and right. Maybe this is an opportunity to make some changes in the culture that make people want to stay. Also, set team norms. If you want to have a growth mindset on your team, you also have to set that in the form of expectations. Hey, we don’t look at problems as stopping points. We look at problems to figure out solutions for set team norms, or another team norm could be, Hey, if you’ve got a criticism, make sure you’re also coming up with a solution. We don’t just want to talk about the negative side of things. And, of course, be transparent when you are open and honest. It builds trust. People are more engaged when you are withholding information. It breaks down trust. They can disengage. They might start looking elsewhere, or they just might simply not do what you want them to do. And then, of course, measure outcomes, not hours. Do not just look at people as a means to an end. Think about it, and maybe this looks different for everyone. The outcomes that they’ve achieved, all of us have different strengths. All of us have different backgrounds and experiences, and our outcomes will look different. It is not a fair way to assess someone’s performance by just strictly looking at their hours. And the last thing it makes sure that you’re encouraging collaboration and displaying vulnerability showing your team that you are too, just as they are, perfectly imperfect. We’re always learning and growing. We’re not ever going to always make the right choices. Even though we always will have the right intentions, when you can display this vulnerability, it can chip away at that fear-based culture. But also says to people it’s okay, do your best. And it could remove that stress that they have of trying to be perfect. And then that can actually help them make better decisions. So, as a reminder, if we’re talking about how do we cultivate that growth mindset, I want to leave you with this. If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change, and that’s from Wayne Dyer. And I hope that as you listen to this many, so today you look at all the possibilities and opportunities that are around you. And even if you’re feeling stuck, you’ll give yourself permission to say, and you know what? I can change. How to Connect with Crestcom I hope you enjoyed this minisode today. If you want to learn more about Crestcom, head on over to Crestcom.com. There, you can find more information about getting us in to talk to your team, whether live or virtually and conduct a two-hour leadership skills workshop. We’re talking about how we can help your team be better leaders, how they can collaborate better together, how they can help your organization solve challenges. And of course, if you know someone that could benefit from this minisode, if they just need that boost of enthusiasm, share this with them. And don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. And Hey, last- I hope to see you at this month’s webinar. We always do or typically do webinars at Crestcom at the end of the month. So I hope to see you on that Thursday, learning about a variety of different leadership topics. Thank you so much for giving me your time and attention today. And again, I hope that you change the way that you look at things. So then, the things that you look at can change.   The post Minisode: How to Cultivate a Growth Mindset with Jenn DeWall appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Recover from a Crisis with Communications Expert Zach Giglio Jenn DeWall: Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Zach Giglio. Zach is a communications expert with more than a decade of experience in public relations, public affairs marketing, and both digital and social media. He has worked for the largest public relations agency in the world in both Washington, DC and Johannesburg. And he’s also worked as an independent contractor. Today, Zach is the CEO of his own boutique communications firm. And we are going to be talking all about how you can recover from a crisis. Now, before you turn this off, I want you to know that crisis isn’t necessarily that big, bad thing that we’d see in the news. It could also be a mistake, a misstep, or maybe something that, you know, that’s broken trust that you need to recover from. So enjoy as Zach shares his tips on what to do to recover from a crisis. Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode, I’m sitting down with the CEO of GCM, Zach Giglio. Zach, thanks so much for joining us today on The Leadership Habit. It’s great to have you. Zach Giglio: Thanks for having me. I’m really looking forward to the conversation. Meet Zach Giglio, CEO at GCM Jenn DeWall: So you’re a CEO. You have a fantastic business. I know in our pre-call we just went in so many different directions in terms of leadership, what you can do, but for our listeners, could you just talk a little bit about your story, how you came to be because today we’re going to be talking about how do you recover from a crisis? And some people might be thinking, well, I’m not in a crisis moment, but a criticism could be even a small mistake that you make to a consumer to all the way of the big ones, where we have to rebuild trust. So as you’re listening to, Zach’s going to give insights from his experience, but he has great experience and background and knowledge in terms of helping you make sure that you’re doing the right things in that point of crisis, mistake, whatever we want to call it, to make sure that you are rebuilding trust to make sure that you are connecting. And, of course, rebuilding the image that you might have as a leader or an organization. So Zach, yeah, let’s kick it off. How did you come to be? Like, how did you get into this line of work? What’s your background and experience? Please share with our listeners. Zach Giglio: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. And I’m looking forward to talking about the crisis, and that’s a good point just before I get into it about people think crisis, we think it’s just like the massive thing that has to happen, but it also refers to those smaller things, which could eventually turn into that massive thing that you don’t want, too, if you don’t deal with it. So that’s a good plan. I think I think it’s good for people to remember that. So, you know, I don’t know what it was like, there’s I try to like put logic behind, like how did I get into comms? And it’s really hard for me to think about, except when I was younger, people always said I should be a lawyer. I never really had that much difficulty finding some common ground with people when I was talking to him about something. So what I was telling them a story or an argument or disagreement, I always loved being able to like reach people on some human level where I felt like relapsing either. And that was even as a kid. I was getting in trouble for something, you know, I got like a bad grade on the test or something way worse. You know. So I always liked that. So I should be a lawyer, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but it just never felt right. And so, I thought like the next logical thing was somehow getting into communication. So I could tell stories for a living, figure out how to communicate messages in a way that resonated with people. And so I got started with that, and that’s what I ended up falling in love doing. And I think the other combination of that, and I’ve had the privilege of being able to travel. They’ve been working around the world. So I’m from Long Island, New York, but I’ve also lived in working around Shanghai, in China, in Johannesburg, South Africa, in Washington, DC for a while. And now we’re in the Charleston area in South Carolina, and something that was a constant, that was really strong for me was the power that human connection we made on my memory on my life and on where my life was going after those moments, whether it was from China back to DC or DC over to South Africa and things. And I realized after, especially starting in my professional career, that nothing happened of significance that wasn’t based on some sort of strong human-level connection. And so when we were deciding to go on our own and to do our own thing with GCM, my wife and I, it was my business partner who I met in China and did most of these travels with me, and she’s from South Africa. Creating Human Connections Zach Giglio: We, we decided that we wanted to create these human connections that we’ve had the fortune of having, but just on a much larger scale with large businesses so we can maximize, but this ability or anybody’s ability to create those human connections, which again, we know, move that needle. And so GCMS, a family-founded global comms agency. We believe in the power of business as a force for good and in human connection. And we get to know our clients from the inside out, and we create thoughtful communications and marketing campaigns that we think resonate on a human level. Jenn DeWall: Yes. And that’s what’s so important these days. I think from a consumer perspective. It is really hard when you feel like you’re being sold something without even them seeing you in the equation. I mean, I even think about just the one-off, maybe LinkedIn conversations. I’m so reluctant to sometimes even accept a new request because I know that it could potentially unleash the I’ve someone else shared this ex this phrase pitch-slapping, or you might get “networked on” where they just, you know, go into your email box and don’t even think about you as a human. And I think so many people are, so I get it, they’ve got great products, great services, but yet the gap that they can’t bridge is that human communication piece or that human connection piece. And that’s what I think is so important about what does, because you can’t just try to promote your service, and we know that, but then again, if we know it, why the heck am I receiving these very awkward LinkedIn requests? If you know that it’s all about building trust and being real. I mean, I don’t know if you have any take on that. It’s still interesting that I think we, that piece of genuine human connection, is missing in some of those platforms that we have to use, and that makes me just kind of want to, you know, avoid or not work with someone because they’re not treating me or seeing me as an individual. They’re seeing me as someone that could buy their service. Zach Giglio: Yeah. I, I don’t think I could say it better, but basically, the way you just said it, quite honestly. And I might actually steal some of that like percent use because you’ve put like a really good, like a really fine point on it. And that’s exactly like when something’s happening to us, we feel it. Like, we, we do not control in any situation in our life, those feelings we have when something happens to us. Like scientifically, like, like we don’t control those feelings, we can control what we do with that, but we don’t control those feelings. And we know somewhere at a deep level, like when we’re not- to your point- when we’re “networked on,” which is such a, such a funny phrase. But, but it’s, it’s completely true. And a lot of times the worst thing, especially you got going back to this LinkedIn thing, is when it is, it’s so forced in the pitches, but it is, it is templatized in a way that is supposed to like sound human as if it’s like talk and then at least if you’re doing a numbers game like if it was me, I would be like, look, I have no idea who you are. I just Googled you or searched you because you’re the CEO or you some company and my business like survives on a numbers game. So I’m sending as many of these out there like, as possible, hoping that you need my service. I would look at that and be like, that’s awesome. That is totally true and authentic. You’re not considering me, but at least you’re acknowledging that. Like, that’s rather than being like, Hey, I really love what you’re doing at insert company name. So many times where I get, I get messages where it’s like, where they’re like, Hey, just wondering if you’re ready for a change and kind of getting tired at your work at GCM. And I was like, I founded it. It’s like, what do you like, what are you going to get another job? Like, that’s not, that’s not how that works. But you raise a good point. Like in all seriousness, that is the problem with it is like, we’re not being treated as, as humans. And I don’t know how much that stuff works. But when we’re not being treated as humans, when the language isn’t resonating with us on a global level, we’re just not going to do anything with it. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. I just, that’s what I love about your organization and what you’re trying to do because I would appreciate it. If someone honestly did come at me and say, Hey, I know you don’t know you at all. I know we’ve never worked together. I would love to get to know more about you, but it’s not. Hey, did you have time to check out my blank, blank, blank that I sent you that you didn’t ask for? No, I didn’t because I didn’t need it. And also, yes, everyone else, you know, and I, I get the sense of having that system and that customizable message. That’s quick, like copy-paste. You know, you could see the numbers game piece, but everyone’s doing that. Now that message is the exact same. I really appreciate the work that you do really blank, blank, blank. Like those messages are everywhere. And it just makes me again want to avoid that. So I think it’s so important that GCM is taking the stance of like, how can we actually build these authentic connections? Because that’s what I feel like Crestcom does as a leader. Like how can we actually show people to be the best leader, to connect at a deep level, to create an inclusive environment? And so I think it’s so important and we’re going to be talking about today, like, how to recover from a crisis, which is actually a topic that, you know, I know that you can do that because that’s, you know, part of what GCM does as well in terms of how do you inspire those human connections? How do you rebuild that human connection when it might’ve been lost? Because we might’ve made missteps as a leader, right? You might have maybe gone all-in on a strategy that then you realized wasn’t a great fit and you have to rebuild trust, or maybe you have maybe broken trust with your customer, and you’re trying to rebuild, or maybe there is a bigger public scandal or misstep that hit the headlines or current events. Jenn DeWall: And you really need to do some deep, I guess, public relations on managing that image. So you don’t drop your market share. So no matter where you are in the organization, this is an important topic. How do you recover from a crisis? How do you require or recover from a mistake? Like that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. And I think it’s one that is not always talked about, probably because it’s uncomfortable because typically, if you attach the word crisis, it means that there might be some feelings on it or points of view. And so, how do you even begin to address that question, right? You typically the people that are coming to you to say, how do I recover from a crisis are likely in crisis mode. They’re not proactively thinking and planning. How can I actually make sure I manage these things? If they go awry? Be Prepared for Crisis Before the Crisis Zach Giglio: Oh yeah. Crisis is like the hardest service to sell because you ideally want to sell it and start doing like working in crisis before, to your point, a crisis happens. Because one, you should be doing like an audit. Like where is the crisis? Like, like potentials, how do we plan for that? Are there things that maybe we are, you should be doing a little bit more or for a little bit best stuff, because we don’t really want that to happen? Like there’s a lot of times where the comms industry can lead on really important structural change within an organization just by going because they might not like it. It’s not to your point. Like, oh, maybe you’ve made a mistake, but like, if you’re not leading hard enough or you’re not like going out there and doing enough, then you might not make a mistake, but you should. I think people can see making mistakes as a good sign that they’re growing, that they’re taking chances that they’re trying things. Because if you’re not making mistakes, then maybe you’re being a little bit too conservative. And like, you’re not trying enough where you’re not putting yourself out there enough. So it will happen. A hundred percent, you will make a mistake on some level, whether it’s you or your entire organization. But I think it is very normal for people within an organization to be a little bit more blind to, or it’s harder for them to see maybe where some of those mistakes actually are. And so by working with the con professional, before a crisis happens, you can start maybe sussing that stuff out, but when a crisis happens or when something’s wrong, it’s, it’s also like, even at the moment you would think, okay, well, we’re an organization that understands we’re having a crisis and we need to do something about it. We need to start communicating. We need to change some things. But even then, like within organizations, it’s very common for not everybody to be on the same page in an organization on whether or not there’s even a crisis happening and whether or not that even needs to be a plan. I mean, like that is like the first step. It’s not like, oh, we have a crisis. What do we do? It’s like, we have a crisis. Right? Like this is actually a problem that we need to be working on, right? I mean, I was in a conversation, not like a week or so ago, and there wasn’t alignment, and we couldn’t help him because half the people thought there was a crisis and that they should do something. And the other half didn’t think it was significant. It was a tie, but it was very significant. Jenn DeWall: It is challenging to have that. I mean, we know that in leaders and organizations, different points of view, different perspectives and, and how difficult to try and help when you can’t have consensus. I want to back up just to people that might be unfamiliar or less exposed when Zach is saying “comms” – he means the communications industry. So if you would say communications industry in a different way like, would you describe that as more like branding or public relations? How would you describe that to someone that might be outside of that? Zach Giglio: Yeah. I mean, that’s good, that’s a good point. And now I’ll remember to be a little bit more descriptive, but so comms— depends on which part- like we at GCM are a full-service agency. So we do everything. So within comms in our purview is public relations. So that could be like media pitching messaging interviews, things like that, or it could be social media. So that could be content, production, design, community management. It could be crisis communications, which was like crisis communications. Also, what would fall under that if a pandemic hits and the CEO of a very large organization needs to inform its employees of a change or something bad happening or something. You know, just like sales are going down or facilities are closing— that’s a crisis as well. I got nothing that it’s not just like, someone’s done something wrong. And then also when we do like report writing and design, all that stuff. So like in, in our world, it’s comms. Some people call that marketing. So we say communications or marketing, depending on where you are. The only thing I would say it’s slightly not is like advertising, but even advertising has a lot to do with comms, but there’s just a little bit more of a specific skillset for advertising because you have to understand kind of like the backend of advertising. Where we’re we’re comms also has branding and workshops and things like that. So if there’s something that needs to be communicated, that’s comms! Are You Sure It’s a Crisis? Jenn DeWall: Okay. Thank you for it. I appreciate that because it gives me a better perspective too. I feel like I can actually observe the true robustness of that industry. So going back to the, how do you recover from a crisis? I like that thinking like, can you even gain consensus on whether or not a crisis is happening? I mean, going back to that conversation because yeah. What, what do you do if someone can’t come to an agreement about the crisis? Then I feel like, what are you doing? Are you either crossing your fingers and hoping it doesn’t actually go up to something else? Or you’re just kind of like, okay, well, we’ll see. I mean, I don’t. What have you seen happen? And we’re going to get into, like, where you need to start. What, so that’s going to be coming up, but I’m curious, like how do they even resolve that? What do you see potentially happen when they can’t reach a consensus? Zach Giglio: So, so if, if they truly can’t reach a consensus, depending on who’s calling the final shot, it could very well be that nothing happens. That you’ve had a conversation, you’ve made a recommendation on this is how I would start dealing with this situation. Maybe we should start doing this. Maybe there should be a direct call there, but you know, five or six different things. But the answer at the end of the day could be like, we don’t think this is a crisis, and we don’t want to react to it. Because they might see it as distracting from a bigger picture, which I get that, like, I get that. And that is a very strong balance. Quite honestly, that a crisis communications professional and their team need to need to strike, which is how do you respond to a crisis publicly or even privately in a way that it’s not knocking you completely off of what your entire comms and business strategy is anyway because you don’t want that to happen. Now, there are some crises that are so great that you actually do need to halt everything and address it. 90, probably 90-99% of all crises, you don’t need to stop your entire business organization and all of your other communications. You just may want. So like, for instance, let’s say like, let’s say you had like a disgruntled employee who was slandering the company saying that things are untrue about like the fabric you used it in your shirts. Like, and they’re going to think it’s a lie. It’s not all this, and it’s actually something. One strategy you could do as a proactive, comms thing is not. You don’t want to directly if it’s not true. I mean, if it’s true, you need to get your stuff together. But if it’s, if it’s not true, you know, you don’t necessarily want to give credence to the disgruntled employee for spreading lies, but you also have to understand that there’s a possibility that some sort of like a controversial, inflammatory statement on social media could gain steam and you want to get ahead of that. So what should you do? You start creating or at least prioritizing content that shows or verifies the credibility of the fabric and all the quality of the materials that you use in your stuff anyway. So you’re addressing it, but an indirect way that is proactive and prioritizing messages in a different way than like, so that in, in my head, it’s like a reasonable balance. Like, well, it’s obvious that already the shirt in our made-up shirt company, like prioritize it, I think is important about what materials they use and all their products dash what’s the attack. That’s not necessarily so far outside of the realm of what you should be communicating. We’re just saying maybe prioritize that a little bit more now. So that’s, that’s, that’s the balance because you don’t want to throw the entire company in a completely new direction, just because one thing is a bad thing is happening. Although again, depending on how large that crisis is. Jenn DeWall: Yes. I like that answer too, of thinking that brings up even, how do you manage when, so I know in the day of Glassdoor or LinkedIn, where people are able to write reviews of your organization, that can be something that, I guess, from my perspective, I see so many more people using that as a starting point of whether or not they want to invest in your culture. And so, to some extent, if you’re not addressing it, then you may be leaving stuff on the table that could be creating the wrong picture. But we’re going to dive in. I don’t know if you have any comments on how organizations even address that, because it is, how do you determine like, okay, this is one disgruntled employee versus what’s the impact that this is going to have. And you know, and how well are people going to be able to deduce that there could be something missing, right? That you know, that employee could have done X, Y, Z, and then they wrote that comment. Like, you don’t necessarily want to own that. That’s all on them. But how do you even decide at this age where employees can write those reviews? Like, how do you even decide how to address that? Because if they go there negatively, they’re not like, well, I just want to let everyone know. I love this organization. Typically when you have that, they’re not necessarily going there to share the love. Zach Giglio: So really good point. And this is where crisis work should begin. It’s way before you have that discount to the employee on Glassdoor, having one of five reviews, that’s a zero star or whatever it is, right? Like, because at that point, whether you like it or not, it matters because if you have no, I mean, I know I have multiple examples of clients that I’ve worked for either through GCM or back in my previous lives, where they’ve come to us saying we had one bad issue come up five years ago, but it’s the only thing people can find online about us. And we’ve l we’re losing contracts because of it. Or we can’t hire because the only two reviews on Glassdoor that are about us are bad, like than does like whether or not you want to believe like those negative reviews have an insane impact because it is the only thing out there. Zach Giglio: So the way that proactive communications can help. That is if you start making sure that there are positive, truthful stories out there, whether it’s online reviews, whether it’s news coverage, whether it’s your own content, whether it’s video is there’s already stuff out there. So not if when the negative stuff comes, it is among, ideally, a sea of positive stuff, or at least neutral stuff. Because by the time you get to one out of like five or two out of 10 reviews or really bad, or one out of like ten new stories are really bad. You can’t, and the decision is made. It matters. It’s impacting your business. Because I mean, think about all the times you’ve heard about it, but think about all the times you haven’t heard, someone’s searched you, and they see that. And then they go somewhere else. So if you’re not actively producing positive stories and content, you’re leaving yourself extremely vulnerable to be at the whims of a disgruntled employee or have one bad thing truly happening, which will happen because we’re human, and we make mistakes. How to Recover from Mistakes Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And they like that. Even from a leadership perspective, that if you’re not holding yourself accountable, to matching your words and actions, or if you’re not showing up in a way that’s productive, right. If you do not own it, taking responsibility for that misstep, then that does the same thing. Whether it’s Glassdoor externally, that’s also happening inside of saying, do I really want to listen to Jenn? She seems to do this. You lose your influence, and you lose your trust. And then, all of a sudden, they might be like, I don’t even want to work with Jenn, and they might leave. And so, you know, I want to just keep bringing it back to that because people might think, oh God, and this is, you know, not necessarily something that has to deal with me, but as leaders, it does even directly related to the communications because these little things, these are happening in also smaller-scale ways just within your team or department. So let’s, let’s dive into it now, Zach, like, how do you even start to recover from that mistake or that past misstep up, you know, whatever is kind of haunting you, where do you start? Zach Giglio: Yeah. So it’s a good question. So there’s, I think there are two different things that kind of go together. So on the one hand, you have your very well-tested fundamental block and tackle crisis communications template of like, if there’s a crisis, if something goes wrong, these are the three steps you take, on the other hand, there’s this whole idea of, well, who is your business? And who are you really as an organization? Or who are you really as a leader? And if you can understand that, that reset process that is tried and true becomes way more clear and effective than if you don’t know. And now you’re like employing tactics that are based on a very shaky if any foundation, so I do so. So if we just assume that people have a good understanding of who they are, what their values are, what their principles are. And we can talk about how we can get to that in a second. But let me just give, like the really tried and true crisis comm like a three-step program, basically. So you’ve done so crisis habit, you’ve made a mistake, let’s say in this scenario, the mistake is true. You actually did make a mistake. You forgot to pay your taxes on the new extension on your house, or you said something really inappropriate to somebody, or you made whatever, there are three things. You do, one you admit and own the mistake. Like don’t admit and own things that you didn’t do that you’re not responsible for, but as much as you possibly can admit the mistake. The second thing you do is you talk about what action or actions have you, are you taking to fix that mistake, those specific things you need to say what’s being done to either have already fixed it or fixing it. And then number three, people want to know, okay, fine. But what about the future? Now you have to talk about what things you’re doing in addition to what you’ve already done that will prevent something like this from happening again in the future. And the problem with this is if you don’t have this understanding- first of all, like if you’re not genuine and like, you’re not actually doing things to fix it, like don’t fix it, just own it and be like, yeah, this is a mistake. And I’m going to keep making this mistake. Like, just say that. But if you’re somebody who actually wants to fix it, you need to really understand who you are and what you actually want to fix. Because the problem that we see happening all the time is they take that very tried and true template, which I’m sure you could Google on fine and they just like put it over a shaky foundation and a lack of understanding of who you are as an organization of who you are as a leader, and it rings completely untrue. Or you’re actually saying things that are disingenuous, to what you actually mean and what you actually want to. Correct. And you’re doing, and you could be doing one or two, one of two things. One, you could be making the people who were upset already more upset or two, you could be betraying your own identity and making the people who were upset actually about this crisis. Now they’re upset because you’ve betrayed them. So it’s really important to have a solid understanding of your identity before you get into a crisis. So you can put together a good plan. The Importance of Owning Who You Are and What Has Happened Jenn DeWall: And I think it’s, that’s, you have to own it to control it. Who are you as a leader? Who are you as a team? Where are you as an organization? And are you in alignment with that? And starting with owning it. And I think you, you hit the nail on the head because how can you confidently even communicate something if you don’t know who you are, if you are a leader, for example, that wants to leave maybe a little bit more, you know, do, as I say, not as I do then apologizing for not being inclusive might actually feel really awkward because the people might be like, why would you do that? That’s not, and we know you’re not that. And so I like that example because a lot of times people just, and this is a challenge with, with everything, right? We try to be everything to everyone. And if we don’t know who we are, then we absolutely could be either alienating the people that love us or bringing them on and, you know, bringing new people that may not enjoy us. And so I really appreciate you talking about, you have to know who you are, to be able to know what you’re going to stand for, what you’re going to fall for, and how you’re going to manage it. And you had said, you have to own it. Then you have to describe what you’re doing. I have a feeling I actually would be more curious. What part of the process do you think people miss more? Is it that they don’t know who they are? Is it that they just think that, well, I know who I am, but I don’t have to explain to you what I’m going to do. Like where, where do you think people fail in that process? Zach Giglio: So I think there are two. I find two things that happen. One people aren’t willing to admit their mistakes. So people have a really hard time actually owning where they faltered. Because they have, they’ve been told that they had this idea that they have to show strength, which means never being wrong. But actually, we know, and I think there’s an increasing appreciation from the market of vulnerability, actually being a true sign of strength. I can remember. I think it was Jay Z talking about it at his rock and roll hall of fame acceptance speech over the weekend. I think that’s what he was talking about, too, is how like he’s come to realize that being vulnerable this is, I can get into rap tangents all day long, but he’s his 4 44 album where he was really open and honest and vulnerable. People see it as his strongest album. It is the most he’s ever shown strength. And there’s this. I bring it up because this is even in pop culture. There is this big, this larger appreciation for being vulnerable. But I think people were once told that being vulnerable shows weakness. So people don’t wanna admit a mistake. They don’t want to say, Nah, this, this was wrong. I could have done something different- they don’t want to. Don’t Apologize for Who You Are Zach Giglio: So that’s, that’s one, but then there are the people who think that they should be admitting to it, like saying, sorry for everything. And that they’re going to do, like, to your point about like, I’m going to try to be way more inclusive. Even though like in my, in my like management style or in my leadership style, I’m like get in line or get off. Yeah. And now if I’m, if someone has been unhappy about that and now I’m apologizing for who I am and now saying, oh, and in the future, I’m going to wait, be way more inclusive. What about all the people who are in line and who’re ready to stay on for a long time. Now they’re looking up, saying, but this is why we love you. This is why we’re here. And now you’re telling me that you’re not going to do this anymore. So I think it’s like the two, the two swings of the pendulum. It’s like people aren’t willing to actually have any ownership. Or they try to own way too much. It’s beyond their control and has nothing to do with who they are. And they make amends for things that, like, shouldn’t be made amends. But like whoever you are, the one example I think illustrates, sits really beautifully is I think they’ve fallen a bit from ike consumer grace, but it was Southwest airlines for like years was the, was one of the top 10 brands in America, which is the most unbelievable feat and airline company can do. Like, nobody likes flying. Nobody likes flying. The planes are so small. You can never even get your bag in the overhead and hate to check it. There’s increasing turbulence. It’s like, nobody likes flying. And yet Southwest is somehow one of the top 10, most loved brands in America for like years in a row. I don’t think they are at this moment. But during this time they had, they had decided that they were going to bring light into traveling because it’s about having a good time. And like, and really travel is like, no, one’s like on a plane. Most people don’t go on a plane to go somewhere that they hate being. They are on vacation. You wanna visit family. Like, there’s always somewhere you are going. So they wanted to be a part of this experience and decided, like, let’s have fun. And so during the safety demonstration, they were making light about, they were making jokes and all of this. And I remember I remember it happening and being like, I’m actually paying attention to this stuff, you know, like, and they got a letter from this lady who had had like a son or like a child on the plane or something like that. And they got a letter that went to the CEO and CEO she saw, and it said basically like, I don’t appreciate you making light of a very serious thing. Like I’m a nervous flyer. My child’s protection should come first. I wish you and your organization would take, you know, safety on airlines more seriously, something to that effect. And the CEO actually responded with four words. We will miss you. He wasn’t going to apologize to her. He wasn’t going to say, and this is not who we are because he understood who they were as an organization. And he wasn’t being mean, he said, we will miss you. Like, I’m sorry, like ways to communicate – we’re sorry it is not working out for you, but we can’t betray who we are and what we’re trying to do for people because you’re not happy with us. Zach Giglio: And it’s to your point, Jenn, about like, not trying to be everything for everybody. And like, if that is the real key, whether you’re a leader, like a CEO at that time, or you’re an organization that’s like, that could have been a crisis. I mean, imagine if they handle that wrong, and they’re like, oh, I’m so sorry, we’ll take it more seriously. Now all the people like me who were enjoying. And I, by the way, I used to get very nervous black, who was enjoying that levity to break up the tension I felt. And now I’m going to be like. You’re betraying me now. And so it was strong, and they kept their standing as a loved brand for a long time. Not Everyone Will Like You, and That’s Fine Jenn DeWall: I just think that’s a powerful example of why you can’t and even bringing it back to leadership. Like you can not be everything to everyone. And that’s why you have to know who you are because as much as I even wish that every single person listening to this podcast is like, wow, this is such a great thing. They’re not, right? That’s the reality. Like, I want that, of course, but I can’t also be everything to everyone. And there’s the next person that can do that. And like, that’s okay. Because I think in terms of, you know, bringing it back to human connection, the more that we try to pretend that we’re everything to everyone, the lack of real connection, you know, there’s nothing that to go off of because I’m just like making myself a mold of whatever you want to see. And then how do you even build trust? Because you’re not being consistent, or someone might think, oh, Jenn, like, you know, for me, most people probably know. I like to joke around a lot. I’m not probably your traditional leader. I would call myself maybe a corporate misfit because I just didn’t get the role. Like I can’t pretend that I’m that anymore. I can’t pretend that like I was that. And as much as I wish I could be someone that looks like they have it all together or someone that withholds XYZ. It’s not like that’s just who I am. I will totally fall walking up a set of stairs. I will do X, Y, Z. Like, that’s who I am. I can’t even pretend that I’m much more put together, like, you know, in that perfect package. Right. That’s sometimes people try to portrait because it’s just, it’s too hard, and it’s not true. I will sometimes like, you know, I, I could give funnier examples, like sweat onstage, because I wear something too heavy or like do whatever, you know, that’s just who I am. Like, I can’t pretend that I’m always going to be some level of perfection that everyone’s going to love. I can also be a human, and then people can find more of that relatability. A Message From Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you’ve ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the own a franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Authentic Leadership Prepares You for Crisis Jenn DeWall: Let’s talk about how do you build a solid foundation? Like how do you start to really know who you are? I know that’s one of the things that we talked about in the call was you gave the example of the house. So how can you start to find out who you are as an organization, a team or a leader? Zach Giglio: Yeah. And, and just to your, just one quick point about, you know, you being true to who you are. I think I think you can’t be everything to everybody, but I also think by you being authentic, the way that you are, you actually providing a service to people because you’re allowing them to make a choice about you and about what you do. So like by being who you are in this podcast, you’re allowing people to make a quick and real choice about, is this podcast for me or not, is Jenn for me or not? Is Zach for me or not? Like that’s a service to people because we’re all very busy, and we are all tired of getting tricked and getting networked on and all that stuff. Right? Like if I want to use the heck of that, just give me the option to make a choice. Just like, that’s all I want. Like I’m a human being, respect me, give me the option to make a choice. And by you being as authentic as you are, there’s something that I try to be like, I think like, quite honestly, like my biggest struggle was trying to be too many things, too many people. It’s something I’m really working on, but I know that it’s worth working on because that is like the ultimate service to other people is like allowing them to make a choice. And, and not only that, I mean, what did we talk about now is like, you’re, you’re building this foundation that you can alter, you can pivot, you can respond from a crisis because your foundation is set and you know who you are. So I just wanted to bring that point up before we get into the. I think it’s amazing. I think I think everybody should aspire to be that way. Jenn DeWall: Well, and I think, you know, I know we went on a tangent, but that is something I will say, even within the world of coaching, I’m a coach. This is what I always say because I am not a seller. I’m just not. That’s just not my jam in terms of deliberately selling to people. Because I think when you’re are trying to network on someone, then you’re not giving them a choice. You’re kind of trying to push them into a corner of saying, pick me or, you know, pick me. And so I think one of the expressions I like to say is like finding a coach is like finding a pair of jeans. You have to try on a few to find the one that’s going to help you best flaunt your assets. Like, I’m not going to give you the hard sell because coaching itself as a service is very intimate. There’s a lot of trust that needs to be there. And if you can’t connect in that way, that’s okay. There is absolutely someone else there that you are going to connect with, but I never want to become, and this is my other closing phrase. I’m like, I never want to be your gym membership. You have got to choose me. I am not this person. That’s really great. And then all of a sudden, you’re like, well, I signed up, do I get all the rewards? No! You always have a choice, but you have to work on it. Oh my gosh. I just, I love talking with you in this perspective, in the world where there is so much of a brand and that content-heavy, pushy experience that I think is still, you know, has a lot of room of opportunity of how do we actually give people a choice instead of kind of like forcing them into a corner to either like us, you know, maybe the choice is like us or hate us, but feeling like the only option is to like you. And if they don’t like you, how much money are you going to spend, trying to make one person like you, or the next person like you and you don’t know who you are, and that’s sorry, that was my tangent. Zach Giglio: That’s great. But you know, I, I honestly, like, I feel like we’ve just been told for so long and conditioned to think that we have to sell our products and services. That’s what people buy, but I know that that’s not the case. And it sounds like you know that too. Like, it’s like you walk into a thing. Hey, what do you do? Or what’s your mission statement? What’s your elevator pitch. It’s like what I do and my mission in my life, that’s important. But like, if you only know that, you know, nothing, you know, nothing that you need to know to make a real decision, particularly with coaching, but like, we’ve talked about like this trust and like us, you know, we have large clients in long contracts. Like we don’t, we’re not selling, you know, a, a coffee mug, right. And even could even bet this applies, but like we, we’re not doing a quick transaction where we were. What we’re talking about is building the long, sustainable, trustworthy relationship that is truly better than the sum of its parts. And that requires trust. That requires an understanding of who each other are. But like, you still walk into all these things like, Hey, what do you do? And I’m like, and this is not, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna accomplish anything. Like, you know, and now like, I’ve, I’ve gotten, you know, I’m at least not comfortable enough to the point where like I just took the conversation to a whole different direction and if they want to stick around great. But if they don’t like it, great, good for you. Like you are again, trying to give them that choice. Building a Solid Foundation to Prepare for Crisis Zach Giglio: But you know, going back to this foundation, like, so your, your identity as an organization or as a leader like that is your foundation is not to say, like, if you think about a house, your foundation doesn’t change like your foundation is very, very strong. It’s built solid. And on top of your foundation, you can build your house. But once you build your house, you can renovate it. You can add to it. You can change the rooms, and you can change the floors, you can do all that stuff because you have a solid foundation, like sure, it’s going to take time and effort to make those changes. And you should do it in a way that it’s smart and logical and makes sense for the whole thing. But like, your foundation is solid. So like you can do that. Rather if you have a rocky foundation, every time you try to make a change on your house like you need to also service that foundation. And now you’re in trouble, and you’re spending a lot more time, a lot more effort trying to make any type of alteration or change. But how about a crisis? You have your foundation, and the storm comes, knocks your house down while your foundation is still there. So you just rebuild back on top of your foundation because your foundation doesn’t change. Your house does, the look of it may be, but your foundation does. And that’s how we think about your identity as the foundation of your organization, as a foundation of you as a leader. But how do you understand what your, what your identity is? And so I talked a little bit about how we’re hardwired because of years of like this thing, and like, what’s your why and all this stuff, like it all sounds good, but like, it’s not real. And we’re hardwired to talk and behave in this way. And so when we do these workshops with organizations or with, or, or the thought leaders that will help create platforms and stuff for them, we have to like actively intervene in their brain with an exercise, to separate their identity from what they do. Because we do want to build what they do back on top of their identity, but to understand who you are, that needs to be separated. So here’s something that anybody can do. So if you’re, if you’re an organization or if you are you’re, you are not an organization, but if you are one person within an organization. Or if you’re a leader, you have to imagine yourself- flip a switch. You need to imagine yourself as in a completely different profession, or if you’re an organization in a completely different industry. So, for instance, if we were doing this with a t-shirt producer, they make, they make t-shirts really quotations, whatever we would now make them like a psychiatrist or like a counseling center, like something completely like, so we put the switch. Now, this is what you do. And this is who you are. You need to tell me why anybody would come in and want to work with you, buy from you, trust you? Jenn DeWall: Why would they? I just made a shirt? Your Identity Is Not the Same as Your Profession, Product or Services Zach Giglio: But that’s the perfect response because like, that’s so like, so, I mean, we literally just a couple of weeks ago, we did this with this like consulting company, and we made them a bakeshop. So you’re a bakery now. And at first, they were like, no flip the switch. And they started saying about what that’s like, no, no, no, no, no. You’re now a bakeshop. Why, why is anybody going to come in? And they started talking about how they would reinvent the chocolate chip cookie. And how they would- rather than somebody walking in and being like I want a chocolate chip cookie, they would say but, do you? Tell me what you are seeking from this chocolate chip cookie? And they would think out this whole thing. And they’re like, so what we would rather do is get to know this person and what they truly want or what they’re after, and then design a cookie. Now it might be your choice, but we’re going to design a cookie that is going to exceed what they ever thought they were going to get when they walk into this bakeshop. And I was like, there it is. That’s your identity. That’s who you are. It has nothing to do with your profession or anything you do. So they were talking about relationships. It’s about trust. It’s about being innovative, reinventing things, like also not accepting the status quo, like that’s who they are as an organization. When I, when I’m on like pitch calls, like getting to know people, I said like, we, if we were a landscaping company, we’d be the same company. We would just be cutting your lawn. Like everything about us would be the same. We would just be providing a different service. And, and it’s, it’s again, it’s a way to intentionally intervene in the hard wiring to separate who we are from what our actions are. Jenn DeWall: Yes. And I love, I, you know, I think that’s a great example of an exercise that you could do is see yourself in a different perspective. What are you trying to achieve? You know, that connection. If I think about the cookie shop, you know, I think about replicating this nostalgia or this experience of love and support. Like, I feel like I’m safe when I’m there, right? It’s just from the, maybe the aromas or just the conversations and how people see me and greet me when I walk in. I love that it’s getting people to really think at a much more meaningful level. Obviously, that’s your goal. We’re forging human connections, but too many people, I think, forget about the human connection piece. You’re just like, what do you mean? Don’t they like this? They can’t see all the great ways you haven’t given me an opportunity to even embrace or interact with it, to actually see how I could like it and why I would want it. Zach Giglio: But that’s an amazing point about what your bakeshop would be like. It would be, you know, what someones could be. It could be about comfort. It could be, had nothing to do with actually with the cookies or whatever. It could just be about the experience, the feeling of relaxation. Ooh, there you are. Actually, you are right like that, that will review not what is in your mission statement? What is your elevator pitch? And then, like, I get the function of an elevator pitch. Like I get it like it is forcing you to nail down the core of your service and why you think it benefits somebody else. Like that is extremely useful, but it should not be in place of understanding who you are and the human connection. Like that is only like, well, down the road, you can, your purpose. People are like, well, what should we do about this? What should we say about that? It’s like, well, does this have anything to do with who you are as an organization or as a leader? Oh, it does. Well, how does it do that? Well, then that’s what you say. Not like purpose finding where it’s like, well, we need to have a purpose. Everybody’s got one. I need to have one. Like, and so what’s trending right now. Like in, you’ll get in trouble, you’ll get in trouble by doing that. Jenn DeWall: I think it’s, you know, the elevator pitch is important too. Again, going back to the brand because I think there are, we all know that we’re in a networking situation or maybe just meeting new coworkers for the first time. And we can tell when someone is just giving us their pitch versus actually like whether or not they care about us. And there are a lot of people that have spent a lot of time maybe crafting these compelling elevator pitches. And so then I know of those networking meetings, like, oh, mine doesn’t sound like that. Absolutely not. Because I just haven’t thought about it in that way. And I also still feel uncomfortable with like that, just that pushing, like, I want you to see me in this like aspirational, amazing light. Right. Cause I think there’s a level of when it’s so rehearsed, you miss the fact of like we’re humans, and no one really cares about how pretty you said that. I feel like it’s more of that billboard that you’ll forget about when you drive by. And you’re like, oh, that was a really cool billboard. But like, I don’t, you know, I’m not going to buy the service, but that was cool when I saw it. Zach Giglio: Yeah. One hundred percent. I, a hundred percent, agree with that. Like somebody that’s going to go ask me what, like, they literally said the words, what is your, what is your elevator pitch? Like, I don’t have one. I don’t have one. And I’m like, I’m not going. Like, I just don’t have, like, this is not something that I work for or where are a communications agency. And we do not, we purposely do not have an elevator pitch, and we have great, and we have great clients, and we’re growing, and everything’s working out well. Like we don’t have an elevator pitch. I’ve never, I’ve never heard of a good organization or good leader not getting where they want to be because they don’t have a strong elevator pitch. Again, there’s a function for an elevator pitch. That is a wonderful tool to help you like simplify what you’re doing. Because I also believe like the more you define something, the less you actually define it. Right? Like, so you need to actually be poignant with your language and, like, say what you mean. So I, I liked that function, but it, it it’s, it should not be misunderstood. I think that if any representation of who I am or what my business is that elevate if it is, it’s just not. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. And I think it’s important. It’s an important distinction, and yeah, there’s absolutely a place and a need for elevator pitches that I feel like it does so much more for us as an individual to step into our value and see what we’re trying to accomplish. But you know, the more that we make it again about us, the last that we might be actually seeing that person. So one last thing that I want to talk about because I know that we’re going a bit over, but like, how do you rebuild trust when it’s broken? So like one important thing you had said is that we have to obviously know like our values, who we are and what makes us tick. What if we do it wrong, Zach? What happens? Like how do we rebuild it once it’s broken? I know you gave us the three steps. Like, would that be kind of, the prescription is like, you have to first like, own it. Talk about what you’re going to do now. And then talk about how you’re going to move forward into the future. Or is there something else you would add to that too? Communicating in a Crisis – Own It, Explain What Happens Now, and What Happens Next Zach Giglio: So I think, I think that is like I said before, I think those things are like, that’s the technique. But the underlying foundation really should be a strong understanding of who you are. So it’s like, not even like I lied, so something’s simple like I lied to YOU, and I’ve lost your trust. And now I want to rebuild it with you. I need to understand a little bit deeper. Like I can just go to like, I’m sorry, I lied. I am going to double-check what I say before I say it to make sure it’s not a lie, and going forward, I’m going to go to counseling, so I can stop lying so much. Like if I said that to you, you’d be like, okay, I can’t, you know, like it has to be way more meaningful than that. Like I would have to say to you like, look, this is I, I messed up. Like, this is why I lied. This is what I was trying to get at. This is why I know it impacted you more than perhaps another lie. That’s like an understanding of who I am. Like that’s trying to get through a little bit more deeply. So just to say quickly, because there are people right now who are in this situation and, and we all get in these situations. If you have built, whether you’re an organization or a leader, if you build meaningful relationships based on human connection and your identity, you will have a lot more for forgiving in your world and your network that matters than you will if you’ve only ever had a transactional based relationship. So if you’re like, if you’re just, transaction-based like, there would be very little forgiveness, but if you’re, if you’re on the human level, like you said, like, and you get to know the person who to trust the person when you’re waiting as I can think of mistakes. And like the people that I think are the most important than the world that I’ve lost their trust or Jenn DeWall: Oh yeah, think of it like, even as a human being, I know that in my twenties, I had what I would call not nice responses. I was a high over-achiever somehow expected that everyone would perform in a certain way that I did it. Like, I’ll put it that way. There are other leaders like that. Like if you do that and you are not kind in your communications, or you’re condescending, right. That’s one that we can all relate to. Like, what do you do when you’re condescending? And you can sense that people are like, you know, that’s, I’ll give you that example. Cause I’ve been that person. I hope that I’m not today. I hope that people can say that because I try really hard to see that person, but I know that I’ve been there. Zach Giglio: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it gets a real thing, but as these people know me as a human, they know me, they know me, and they’re willing to, they were willing to forgive it. I mean, if I think about like, so like our, so we have one of our bigger clients. Like we, we love them. And I think that they really appreciate us as humans. Like we got on the phone, we talked to them about life. Like, you know, we’re not, it’s just, it’s not transaction-based. We do certainly do transactions, but like, it’s not what our relationship is based on. And last, last month we had a really big deliverable that I had only found out, and this was partly my fault, I mismanaged it. The day before that, we weren’t going to be able to deliver it the day that we were supposed to deliver it. This massive mistake. And they forgave us almost immediately. And we’re like, okay, this isn’t great. But like this new date works for us. And I told them why? I said this is what the mistake was. This is what we’re doing. I’m going to make sure it doesn’t happen again because this is what we’re bringing in, and blah, blah, blah. And it was all real and genuine where I owned what the mistake was. And they almost immediately forgave us, and they appreciated it because we already have that relationship with them. They already know us for who we are now. Gosh, some people might be saying, okay, well, I have never operated an identity-based organization, or I never operated as an identity-based leader before, what do I do? Well, something that I’ve learned in counseling, which is a really wonderful, like, like superpower tool, is there will always be situations where we do not act the way we wish we did. But that doesn’t mean going forward. That that is the only way, we’ll ever act again. And so there’s no time except now for you to decide that I need to understand who I am so I can better operate in situations the way that I want to understand that I will make a mistake one time, but I need to start setting this foundation so that when this happens again, I’m in a much better position than I am right now. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. And I think the last one that I even hear from that from leaders, like when you can practice vulnerability, when you can own your mistakes, when you can also share what you’re doing, people are so much more flexible with allowing you to be human because you’re also saying I make mistakes. So then you’re telling them, I know that you will, you’re a human being as well, but this is how I want you to show up when we make a mistake so that we can figure out what to do. And I think there’s so much power there because people might be guided by, like, well, what happens if I make a mistake? Oh my gosh, I don’t want to make a mistake. You know, a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome- being found out. Own it. Like it’s, it’s, you know, it’s so simple. If you want to rebuild trust, if you want to do that, show them that you’re human. Especially if you’re a leader, like the less than you can express that side, or you pretend that you don’t make these mistakes. The more that people are, like, I don’t want to work here because I feel like I have to burn the midnight oil just to try and be perfect. And it’s not sustainable. So I’m burned out. Or two, like, I don’t know if I trust that you support me as just an individual that is, has flaws will make mistakes. All right. Breathing, which means that we’re, we’re going to make a misstep somehow. And even though we’ll try so hard, but all you have to do is own it, just own it. I mean, so many times I like it, and then it becomes comical when a leader doesn’t own it. I feel like that then goes into the meeting after the meeting where they’re like, yeah, did you see how they didn’t actually own that at all? That was really awkward because we all know what’s going on, but then they didn’t own it. And it’s just kind of becomes a, well, what do we do with that? We Can Learn More From Failure Than Success Zach Giglio: It’s really like, and it’s really like the truest thing. It’s like the truest advice you could ever give someone, what you just said. Like, own who you are. Own it. And piggybacking on that, it’s like, it’s so easy to lead people when things are going well. And it’s really easy to lead people when things are going well for you, personally. It’s easy. You’re like a superstar, you’re a rockstar, and I’m the boss, blah, blah, blah. But the best moments for leadership and learning or the challenges like it’s so cliché, but like, there’s so much more to be learned in failure than there is in success. And to your point, it is really a strong example of showing people how to behave and how to show up or how to respond the time that is the hardest to show up and respond. And you’re like, and there are no more valuable lessons to teach somebody than that. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh, Zach, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I know I want to ask the final question, which is how they can get in touch with you? But before I do that, do you feel like there’s anything else that maybe I’ve missed in terms of what you wanted to share about managing a crisis? Zach Giglio: No. I think we covered it. I also shudder because I feel like we could go on and on, and I’ve really enjoyed the conversation. I love where you take the conversation. I really think you have such an interesting insight and curiosity about these topics. And I love talking about this stuff, but there are not enough people out there who see the world the way you see it. And so I really appreciate the conversation. I think I think you’ve kind of nailed it. You’ve put a fine point on it. Like own it, fix it, fix what you should be fixing. Don’t fix what you shouldn’t be. Apologize when you should be apologizing. Do not apologize because you think it’s the right thing to do. And you don’t feel it in your heart. And you haven’t if you haven’t operated on your identity now, like, just start now, because way down the road, you’ll be in a better situation. Yeah. Jenn DeWall: Zach, right back at you, I’ve loved our conversation, loved our pre-call. And I just love what you’re doing to help people again, have more of those human-centered connections, the work with GCM. I think it’s so important. And I guess I just see that in a world where we want to be seen and heard more than ever. It’s just so important that we forge those genuine connections. Zach, how do people get in touch with GCM? How can they connect with you? Where to Find Zach Giglio Zach Giglio: Yeah. I appreciate that. So it’s whoisgcm.com. We’re constantly asking ourselves, who are we? Because we w we don’t want to forget that that’s the most important thing. So our website, whoisgcm.com, and I’m on LinkedIn, it’s like, it’s, I think it’s like linkedin.com/in/zachgigliopr/ and quite responsive, particularly if you’re reaching out saying like, Hey, just want to get to know. You want to learn a little bit about yourself. You will get a response. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I love that. Zach, thank you so much for just taking your time to sit down with me today to share with our audience how they can recover from a crisis. I’ve really, I genuinely have loved our conversation, and I, I truly hope people have found value, or at least maybe permission to just show up a little bit more authentically. Thank you so much for being on the show. Zach Giglio: Thank you, Jenn. Jenn DeWall: You so much for tuning into this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation with Zach or, you know, someone that could benefit from how to recover from a crisis, share this podcast episode with them. You can find him at whoisgcm.com, and you can also connect with him on LinkedIn. If you’re looking to develop your leadership skills, or you want your team to up that level, reach out to us, head on over to Crestcom.com. There you can sign up for a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop. We will come in and help you and your team come together to produce great results.   The post How to Recover from a Crisis with Communications Expert Zach Giglio appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to be an Effective Leader In Your Life with Barbara Dalle Pezze Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, we are talking about how to be an effective leader. And joining me in that conversation is Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze is an internationally recognized leadership coach, life, strategist, facilitator, and author distinguished by her capacity to inspire and empower and by her unique ability to connect and tune in with people from highly diverse cultures, ages and backgrounds. Join us as we talk about what you can do to be an effective leader. Meet Barbara Dalle Pezze, Global Leadership Coach and Facilitator Jenn DeWall: Hi Barbara, it’s so great to have you on The Leadership Habit podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. I am really looking forward to our conversation today to kind of tap into your expertise on how we can be effective leaders. Thank you so much for joining us. Barbara, tell us about what your journey was like. What does your path look like to bring you to where you are today? How did you become interested in leadership development and helping people thrive in that space? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: I think that has always been a passion of mine. And when I say these, I’m in that, since I was in my twenties, I always had a passion for people. And somehow, I love to see the potential in people and help them express it. And it was quite natural for me. And I had lots of my friends at the time that would, they would just come to me, and they would call me the wise one because it would come to me for advice. And then, later in life, I discovered that actually, there is a profession where you can connect with people and help them evolve and help them express their potential fully. And so I thought you know what, I think that that’s, that’s actually good. And I would like to try it. Having said that, it was not so straightforward, the path. The path was going through working in academia went through doing facilitation and training, and corporations. And eventually, it was the focus on the coaching side and the leadership development and the leadership development because I realized that actually do have an impact. We do need to develop leadership, our own and others’ leadership. And when I say leadership, however, I don’t mean just leadership in corporations and in organizations, but also leadership in life. Because I have always wondered what happened if on earth we have the millions of people who are feeling leaders that are leaders and they walk their path and they are in their life feeling that they are impactful leaders, not necessarily because they are in corporations but in their life. I think that we would have a very different world actually. So that’s what I, that is what I was passionate about. And that’s what I have been pursuing a career in. Jenn DeWall: Well, and it’s so important. I love that leadership is not something that is just, you know, the expectation of maybe a corporate professional. It’s hopefully an expectation of all of us in a community and how we show up in our families or in our relationships. And I like that you bring that distinction up because a lot of people think that leadership is just when you walk into the door, that’s when leadership begins and then when you leave for the day, but we don’t have to think about those things. Whereas there’s such a great cross-over if people learned, for example, how to resolve conflict, whether it’s at work or at the relationship or with their relationships, they could cross over and use that, or how to influence or how to communicate effectively. Everything has that cross-over. Yeah. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: And, and, and, and leaders of ourselves as well. Right? First of all, because in order to influence and impact whatever environment we are in, we need to be able to, I say, influence our self first and actually know ourselves and be the best we can be. So, first of all, he’s doing the work to become the best human being we can possibly be. The Unexpected Gift – A Book by Barbara Dalle Pezze Jenn DeWall: Yeah, it is because we have a short life to live, and we have to maximize our impact or our fulfillment in it proper. Before we jump into that facade, I want to talk a little bit about your book, The Unexpected Gift. What inspired you to write that? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Actually, I love this question. The unexpected gift is a memoir of my personal story, which is a leadership story because it is the story of how I found my identity and rebuilt my life after the implosion of my marriage that happened out of the blue. And it happened while I was living abroad and building my career being in between countries and therefore experiencing life in different cultures. So I decided to write the book because at the time everything happened, I was by myself, I was in a foreign country, and I was building my personal life and my career. And I couldn’t find any book or anybody that could tell me that what I was going through that was very painful and very harsh at the time would have had a happy ending. It would have been good eventually. And what I was living, it was so shocking and so traumatic. And I had to figure out how to go through those moments. And because I love books, I’ve always looked in books for some suggestions and bits of help and mentorships, and I couldn’t find any. And so I decided that I wanted to, I would have eventually taken the time to write about it. And so, eventually, I did. And the way I did it, I also remember that when those very difficult moments were happening, I had such a lucidity. My mind was so clear, and there was such transparency in what was going on that there were insights that normally I would not have about life, about people, about how we feel, how we think. And so I decided in the midst of pain to write those insights somewhere I had always said a piece of paper with me, a tiny little booklet. And so I would write all these insights because I knew that once the pain was gone, that clarity would have gone too. And so I did, and I did it for, for a long time. And eventually, when the time was right and when the life showed the ending of the story, then I could put everything together, and I decided to write a book. And now it is my contribution for people that go through traumatic experiences that want to be, and they want to know. And I want to tell them from the future that it is going to be all right, that it’s going to be fine no matter what they think or feel at the moment because that was my experience. And I share what I went through and how it is now from the future. And I think that that’s a great contribution, and it is also a way to help people going through a process of healing. And it also is for those people that are next to people who suffer a lot, because often we do not know how to deal with the pain of others. And so, yeah, I wanted to give this contribution because I’m sure it is not for everyone, but for those who go through very difficult and painful situations, I think it is a good hand at least this is what I was looking for. So that’s why I wrote it. Jenn DeWall: I love that you wrote a book just to give people hope and hopefully help them inspire their journey of clarity that even though they might feel at the bottom, or just wrapped up in pain and the trauma of an experience, that there is a way out that there is, you know, there will be clarity, time will pass, and they will come out better. On the other side, I think it’s so important. And I think it’s important to talk about it on this podcast, too, because, again, leadership is not just something that we do at work. Leadership is how we live our lives and how we essentially manage situations, overcome obstacles and adversity, and come out on the other side to truly maximize the experience that we have in our short time here. So thank you for writing that book, but Barbara, I guess my last question about it is if we took out one nugget from the book, what’s one important piece from the book that you are, or that you wanted to share with the readers? The Importance of Role Models for Healing Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Well, given that well, I love it all actually– given that these days, I am speaking a lot about role models and mentors. I would like to take that little piece from the book. There was a chapter where I spoke about unexpected mentors, and it is very beautiful, I think because although I’ve been blessed with the many people on many amazing friends and family that love me when I went through that experience, my friends and the people around me did not have the experience of the depth of pain I was going through. And so, even if they loved me a lot and they were there for me again, they could not support me, in the sense of how do I go about to move forward? And I found unexpected mentors in people that went through the atrocity of the second world war. Survivors of concentration camps, experiences, and they wrote about it, and they wrote their, this, their story in books. And so I started reading their stories, and I wanted to find in an, and I was looking in their books to find, how did they go through that? And what did they leverage? What, how were they thinking, what were they doing? What what was it that made the difference so that they survived something so traumatic. And so they were my new community. I found that I belong to that community, not because what I went through is nearly close to what they went through, but exactly because of that, they went through so much more. They were able to somehow I felt like I belonged to them. They were able to understand me somehow. And in their words, I found so many lessons that I could learn and that I could put into practice myself. And they became the giants of the soul for my unexpected mentors and me because it was as if I was on their shoulders, and I could see forward what I said before. Then my book wants to do speak from the future. You’re going to make it. That is the message I got from them. Right. They, they were showing me that they made it in such a difficult situation. So who am I not to make it- given that they made it? So, so they were my unexpected mentors. And still today, I am looking to them for greatness, for becoming the best possible human being I can be. Jenn DeWall: I, gosh, I love that story. It’s all about, you know, sometimes within leadership, we have to look around us who has been in our shoes before, again, not saying that you were in the same circumstance at all, but if we just look at a high level that if we look around us in our surroundings, who may have experienced conflict before, who may have experienced pain, who may have experienced this circumstance that you’re in? Someone may have done that. And what can you learn to be able to help yourself heal, move forward, be more resilient? I think it’s so important to look around us because I think our natural tendency is to isolate and say, I’m all alone. And no one has ever gone through something that I’ve gone through. And again, while we can’t compare everyone’s experiences to our own, because they’re all unique. And we can’t, you know, not look at the concentration camps as a comparison. We can find ways that we are more alike than we are different and that we can find healing and be inspired by others and how they showed up. I think that’s a really important message. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: And, and, and also allow me to add the link to leadership, right? They had amazing leadership in what they went through and how they responded, and how they acted in that situation. And I believe that they, they lived courage. They were resilient. They, they trusted in life. And at different degrees, if you look carefully, these are traits that we need in today’s world. In our situation today, being at, at work, courage is simple. For example, if you have to have a very difficult conversation with somebody, right, and you do need the courage to start that conversation, to bring up some topics we need, we need resilience because we want to go places. We want to achieve certain goals. And sometimes, it is hard. And so you need to stick to your goal and your intention and don’t get frustrated too much, at least, but keep going and being resilient about it. Right. And trust that eventually, what’s good and what’s honorable eventually will, you will make it and will be the one element that will be the winner, right? So I think that with a different degree of intensity and pain, but the traits and the qualities that we need in leadership, like courage, resilience, trust—are key. What Do People Get Wrong About Effective Leadership? Jenn DeWall: So let’s dive into the conversation now, talking about how we can be effective leaders. So we talked about, you know, one of that first, and I know we’re going to dive more into it. What does it mean as an individual, but let’s talk about where do people get it wrong? Like where, what are examples of bad leaders, and where do they get it wrong? Why are they not effective? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: What I would say, I don’t know if they get it wrong. Because I don’t think, I think that people tried their best for the situation they are in and for the abilities to understand and, and sense the situation if they can do it. I believe that a key element is always to be aware of others, to know that we are not alone and that we can not make it alone. So when you say, where did we get it wrong? I think that if you think about going solo, especially in this historical moment, I don’t think it works. I think that we need to collaborate. We need to cooperate with each other more and more. And especially if you are in a leadership position, you really want to have a team on board that contributes to the mission, the vision, and that are actually your team members. It doesn’t matter if you are in a leading position and they are your member of your team, right. We need to collaborate and cooperate. So doing things alone, I don’t think that works. And that would be my first answer to you. Jenn DeWall: That’s a really important answer. I remember something, and this could be more out there, but it was something that my aunt had shared with me when I was younger. And it was, I think when I was in my twenties, you know, still really going for that need for strong independence, right. I live my own life. I’m creating this, and I’m blazing my own trail. And one of the things that my aunt said to me is that you will never be independent. We are always interdependent. Meaning we will always need to rely on, depend on,  trust and work with— collaborate with others. And you’re right. I think the first, you know, when people, where do people get leadership wrong, it’s when they think that it’s and I forget again, who said this, but when they think it’s a Me and not a We. And it’s, you know, we get that wrong, and we just think that it’s all about us. And that’s when we miss out on the opportunity to leverage people’s strengths, to connect with others and to get the most out of a team. How else do people maybe, you know, I guess how else, or what else gets in the way of people being effective leaders? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: I think when we, when we say, and we think I know better, and we, therefore, have an arrogance that does not allow us really to listen to others and to take into consideration their contribution. And, and I think that there, that we need a level of humility, which doesn’t mean that we do not have, we do not act with power or with strength. So humility is the fact that tells us that I am not perfect and I always am in need of help from others. Not because I am not enough, but because, as we just said with others is better, I would need their contribution. Whereas there are still too many people who are in charge that think that they know what is needed and that’s it. And what they bring to the table that might not be as important or as worthy of being taken into consideration? And so, again, I would say that arrogance is what becomes, it becomes a big barrier. It becomes a big barrier to being an effective leader. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. I always say this when I teach classes on behalf of Crestcom for leadership development. When someone is onboarded into our class, the first thing I say is no ego. Drop your ego. Every person is here to be both your teacher and your student. We can all learn from each other, and we can all teach each other something, but your ego is going to be the biggest obstacle that you will ever have to overcome. Because I think ego also, you know, that creates that friction and the frustration, especially if something doesn’t go our way. You know, recognize the impact of eco and how much it can personalize things that don’t ever need to be personalized. And that we’re just all humans doing our best. I love that coming back from it. When you corrected it, it’s not that people are getting it wrong, right? It’s that everyone’s trying their best. I love that mentioned that you had said because it truly is. We have to trust that people assume positive intent. People are doing the best that they can with the information experience tools that they have. But Hey, we’re going to give you a different way to approach it today for those that may not realize how you could be showing up that could be maybe creating friction on your team. We’re going to talk about that. Crestcom Develops Effective Leaders Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. How Do We Start Becoming More Effective Leaders? Jenn DeWall: Barbara. So, where do you begin to become an effective leader? What’s the starting point for that? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: I always start with doing the inner work of leadership on ourselves. And I always speak about a metaphor in relation to this first step, which I love, which is the metaphor of the watch. And if we consider it a beautiful watch, you can think about any watch you want. I like, but definitely. So I use that. And but definitely, but they have some models where you go, you see through the glass, and you see all the engines and all the tiny little parts that constitute the movement of the watch. And they are clear, and they are clean. They work in sync perfectly, and you can see the tiniest of them and they are all perfectly synchronized, and they are taken care of. So I think that the first step is really to do the inner work so that we can have our inner engine as clean and clear as well- functioning as shiny as the watch because once that’s done, that means that we have done the inner work to taking care of our understanding, how we work, how we function emotionally from a cognitive perspective, from a psychological perspective, even from a spiritual perspective, for those who have that dimension. And once we have taken care of all of those parts and aspects, and we know how they influence who we are and how we behave and how we relate and how we interact once that’s done and our inner movement works smoothly and is good, then we can focus on others. We can focus on the business; we can focus on other people. We can focus on actually making other people shine because we are working in and we are in harmony, and we are in a good balance within ourselves. So the first step is to me to be an effective leader is doing the inner work of leadership, which means do you actually know yourself going back for one moment to what you said before about the ego, right? We cannot let go of the ego. If we do not know that we are in need, for example, of significance, or we want to be seen because by being seen and being considered great at what we do, we are gratified, and we feel at peace. So once we understand- this is just one example. But once we know that, then we can tame our ego a little bit, and we can leave space more to others, but we need to know that first, we need to recognize that, and we need to have had an insight about it. So I think that that’s, that is just one example of why it is important to just start doing the inner work and know yourself. Because from that dependence, the style of leadership, the way you interact, the relationship you build, and eventually the business that you create. Doing the Inner Work to Become and Effective Leader Jenn DeWall: My gosh, I feel I say this a lot to people. I think everyone needs either a therapist or a coach, someone that can stand with you and help you do that inner work. And I am pretty open about the inner work that I’ve done, because why not? And I don’t live in my story, so I feel open talking about it, but inner work for me, oh my gosh, it helped me understand if we’re talking about how it came down to leadership. Inner work for me was even understanding that I used to be triggered by authority, and it’s a result of my childhood. But understand that when I was in a conversation with someone that was maybe an executive leader or had higher organizational positions or positions of power, then I would become weaker wouldn’t be confident. I wouldn’t be as assertive as I naturally was in circumstances that I trusted. But once I recognized that it was because of that, then I could say, oh my gosh, this makes so much more sense. And I could show up in a different way, but so many people maybe miss out on that opportunity to reflect and think about what your triggers are. How do you show up in different situations? And then be curious as to why do you think you show up that way? And I just think that’s so important because for me, again, I saw so many parallels between what my childhood experience was into how I actually showed up as a leader, even coming down to the need for feedback, wanting people to tell me I was good enough, instead of telling myself I was good enough. I don’t know. You likely have a similar story, right? There are so many parallels between, you know, what we’ve experienced the implosion of your marriage, how that comes to be in terms of doing the inner work, what was my trigger? What was my identity? How do I rebuild? I know I just said a lot, sorry. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: And I know that you are. You are absolutely right. And, and in my case, what I needed to figure out and discover quickly and not that it was a secret- that I needed to take charge again was to trust. Because by being betrayed and by having my marriage destroyed so suddenly and out of the blue. First, for me became, it became a challenge, and it was very difficult to trust. First of all, myself, what I was thinking, what I was feeling, am I actually get it right or not given that in my, my mind and in my experience, as it unfolded, I did it completely wrong apparently, but I had to rebuild a new way of understanding trust in myself and therefore also in others, because as you know, leadership and not necessarily in a leadership position, but also in life, we relate to others. We are connected to others, and we do need trust. Otherwise, it’s impossible. And so doing the work of really understanding trust, and recognizing my way of trust and how do I rebuild that capacity for myself and for others, that’s part of the leadership. And that’s part of my story. And that was one of the teachings and one of the great exponential growth, let’s say, that my story brought with me. Having the Courage to be an Effective Leader Jenn DeWall: So let’s, I, you just brought up trust as a characteristic, and I know that you talk about it also with two other pieces that you addressed earlier. So we’re thinking about becoming the leader that we want to be. There are three things that we will need three characteristics or traits, courage, resilience, and trust. And I know we just hit on trust, and we’ll probably come back to that, but let’s start with courage. What does that look like to be an effective leader? What does that mean? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: I think that courage is extremely important because courage is actually from the Latin word. It means the strength of the heart. Courage to me is having the first of all, the emotional ability to stand in uncertainty and to stand and be in fear. Experiencing fear, and nonetheless having the strength to move forward and to face no matter what is in front of you being at a very difficult decision, because it does bring consequences that are quite impactful. Being it is a decision to have that difficult conversation that could jeopardize a relationship that you care about. And so I think that developing the ability to be courageous. So having courage is an ability to stand in the truth in what you believe in what’s valuable for you and in standing up for what is valuable for you, no matter what the consequences. And I think that that’s a trait that leaders need because sometimes leaders do need to go against what is perceived as right because not everybody gets what it is about, for example. So you do need the courage to be alone. You do need the courage to feel like you are alone and, nonetheless, keep going. So it is really an emotional strength and mental strength that leaders do need to cultivate Jenn DeWall: My gosh. And it’s even, it sounds like, you know, there’s a big piece of authenticity, but then there’s a big piece of maybe leading and showing up kind of unapologetically. I don’t mean that you’re going around and lighting fires and making people mad, but also just saying that this is the right decision, and I can’t just follow the course, you know, just because that’s what we perceive as something everyone should be doing. I think that’s so important, but yet, oh my gosh. How the heck do you have the courage? Because I think we still have that root of wanting to be liked as leaders. I think that’s the biggest challenge leaders just so badly— and it makes total sense— want to be liked for being a leader, but yet, so it can be very hard to stand alone. What advice would you give them? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: It is true that we want to be liked. What we don’t realize is that we do not need to be liked right now. So what I meant is that sometimes decisions that we make are not understood, and it appears like it hurts others. They hurt others. And in that very moment, we are not liked, but if we stay and remain steadfast in our decision because we are moved by what we believe is good and right, then the fact of being liked is not that important. Because the awareness that I am in any way contributing for the best becomes first, and my desire or need to be like, which is still part of the ego, can go second. And so it is part of learning to be a leader, the fact that even if I’m not liked right now, let’s leave time and see, right. Because of the goodness of what I am proposing, the decision I made will show up eventually in some form in some sort. So people that right now didn’t understand my decision, and they don’t like me right now. They might come back and like me later or reconsider. Right. And if they don’t, that’s okay. I’ve made my journey. And I have been living in integrity with what I believed was the right decision, given the circumstances and the data I have at my disposal. So I think that we need, and that’s where also courage plays a part, right? We need to stand in the uncertainty of not being liked for a while. And it doesn’t need that. It won’t be, we won’t be like forever, but it is right now from that particular people kind of people we are not like, and let’s see, but I think that the good intention, and if decisions are moved by something that is actually good, it will come up eventually in a form or another. So we need to bear discomfort and the frustration, and maybe a little bit, the fear of not being liked in your example, or any other emotions that we do not feel comfortable with, we need to, we need to be strong enough to bear that discomfort as much as needed to move forward. Does that make sense? Embrace Discomfort! Jenn DeWall: Yeah, absolutely! Embrace the discomfort! You know, I think people always think there’s a quick fix and sometimes it’s just time and you’ve got to understand that it’s a moment of time, this too shall pass. It will not be like this forever. And, you know, give yourself that hope and understanding, which I think leads to your second characteristic of being an effective leader, which is resilience. So of like how, you know, resilience might be still pushing through, even when people may not agree with your decisions or like you, or, you know, whatever the event or circumstance might be. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: And keep going and be determined and keep looking at what is your goal? What is that you want to achieve? What is it you want to communicate? And even if now you’re not able to do it, it doesn’t matter. You keep going with the good intention that moves you underneath. And so you keep going, and you have that trust that that’s why they go together. You have to trust. And for someone, it could also be faith that something good will come out of it. And so you keep moving forward, no matter what you perceive at the moment because sometimes we perceive it as it was for me. In my experience, I had to become resilient because what was happening in the outside world was totally not positive. It didn’t speak about the great opportunities coming in the future. Actually, it felt very often like everything was gone, and everything was done, and it was finished, and there was no future anymore. And so I had somehow to yes, feel that, think that, and then doesn’t matter, I move forward as if there is actually a future as if there are great opportunities. Even if at the moment, I don’t feel that. And so, I think that resilience is part of it. It is this experience as well. I might feel discouraged. And I believe that no matter what, I move forward because it might be something positive ahead. And then, with that belief, I actually move. Jenn DeWall: And so the advice there, it sounds like if you want to build your own resilience, you also have to know what you’re working towards. And I know we could talk about Simon Sinek, start with why, but it’s really about crafting a vision for your future. That your circumstance today might not feel that great, might not inspire. You might not be where you want to be, but there can be better. You Don’t Have to Know Where You Are Going to Start Walking Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Yes. But I would like to challenge that a little bit because sometimes it is true that if we have a vision and we know where we are going, it is easier, but there are moments in our life when to even think about the future or dream about the future, or even trying to figure out the future is extremely painful. And so we can really not do it. And so I don’t want to say that if you do not have a vision, you cannot move forward because for me, when my marriage collapsed and the life, as I’ve had always thought about, disappeared, I didn’t know how to think about the future. And yet, I had to move forward because otherwise, I would have literally sunk into my pain. And so it wasn’t very difficult because you move, you need to move forward. And at the same time, you can not, and you do not know what to expect, what you dream, not even dream, but think about. Right? And so before being in the position in a situation to craft a vision, I think that resilience is, you know, what, believe that there will be a vision at the certain point that will show up and you will be able to tap into and recognize. But even if right now, you don’t have it, it doesn’t matter because there is still life ahead. And what you want to do is just one step forward towards something that you might not know what it is. And I’m a speaking rod for people that need to work hard because they are in traumatic situations, in a difficult situation. And they are still working in cooperation and in their life. But it’s so painful. You can just take, make some steps and little steps. It doesn’t matter if you do not have a vision, then there will be a moment when, okay, now I’m ready to actually create my own vision again. But first, I have taken care of myself, and with resilience, I continued moving forward. I think that that’s important because otherwise too many people go, oh, wow. So it becomes a problem. If I don’t have a vision, it becomes, how do I do that? Through our moments, when you want to work on a vision, there are moments when you need to be patient and work a little bit on something else first. Jenn DeWall: No, I think that’s an important pushback, just that, like, you’re not naturally going to transition to, you know, especially from trauma, especially from trauma, that you are not going to move forward into being able to see the future very quickly, depending on the circumstance. So I think that’s an important observation, consideration and challenge because trauma plays a huge role. Mental health plays a huge role; depression, anxiety, bipolar, whatever that might be, impacts our ability to be resilient. And, you know, it impacts our ability to even see a path forward. And so I think that I love that you pushed back and challenged that and talked about just the small steps that we need to take. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Thank you. And that doesn’t mean that these people that have to take these baby steps won’t become absolutely great leaders and will have their vision and realize that they actually think the opposite because they had to slow down and really feel everything. And then they will be so ready to get to their vision when the time is right. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. I don’t think I would even be where I was today if I didn’t go through pain. There’s just no way. And when I’m talking about pain, it can be mental health. As I’ve talked about openly on the podcast, I suffer from depression, but it could be just trauma that you have. And, you know, looking at that is not a mark of shame, not a mark of what makes you less than, but a mark of, you know, your current of the traits that you’re talking about, your courage, your resilience, your trust, and the strength that you truly have. I just, there’s a lot of value in when you can look back, and it’s not in the moment that you can look at it and say, wow, I really am happy about this situation or feeling like this. But it is the reflection past too, you know, look at yourself and appreciate yourself for how strong and courageous and resilient you are. So let’s wrap up with talking about the final component or characteristic, or maybe circle back, because we talked about courage, you know, the courage to maybe move forward, despite what other people might think or say, and then our need to be resilient despite whether or not we have a vision of the future. But then also trust. What role does trust play in our ability to be effective leaders? Effective Leaders Have to Trust Others Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Oh, well, that’s a huge one. I think that trust is really, I would say everything. If you think about this moment, you are trusting the chair you’re sitting on is not going to break. Jenn DeWall: I hope not! Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Exactly! We are constantly in trust, even when we walk on a bridge, even if we don’t think about it is actually we trusted the technology that built a bridge will stay and will work. Right. So I believe that trust is really key, and it is made of many different components. How do we build trust? It has to do with our ability to set boundaries, for example. Now I’m talking about trust in relation to people, right? Set boundaries, and be sure that if I am communicating in relation or I am in a relationship with you, you know, where my boundaries are, and you’re not stepping on them or beyond those boundaries that are important for me because it, they constitute my safe space. And I need to be able to recognize your boundaries, for example, and not step into your intimate area and life-space. It has to do with the ability to respect privacy. When you speak to me about something, or when I speak to you about something that is very important to me, I trust that you respect the privacy of what I’m saying. You are not going to talk about it on a podcast or with other people. It has to do with – to build trust, we need to suspend judgment, right? I need to suspend judgment. And when you say something, you need to feel free to express yourself knowing that I am actually listening without passing any judgment on what you say, but I’m actually open and listen to you and vice versa. And these allow us to express ourselves. These are just some of the elements that we need to be aware of them that constitute what we’ll build into trust. And just by mentioning these few elements, we see that trust is an experience. It is not just as something that I give you or you earn. It is really an experience made of tiny little events and behaviors that I am experiencing when I am with you. And it is complex, and it requires time. And it definitely, I think it requires a focus, the ability to know that everything we do in a relationship, and therefore, if you are a leader, every time you interact with people in your team or with your peers, or the leaders in your organization you are building trust or I don’t say destroy because that’s too strong, but you are walking backward. Jenn DeWall: Yeah, eroding trust. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Yes, eroding. Thank you. So I think that it is so important because then on the trust we walk and now I’m getting, going back to the metaphor of the bridge. If I trust you, I can actually walk next to you, and I feel safe, and I can express myself and vice versa. If I am concerned and I feel that I don’t have trust in you, we are not moving forward because I’m testing all the time that I am safe. That I, what I am communicating is going to be taken care of. And so the focus remains on me instead of on you, instead of being on what we can create, this is just one way- there are many. Is Trust Given or Earned? Jenn DeWall: How you just talked about trust inspired me. I just taught a webinar last week on trust. And one of the questions that we pulled the group for was should trust be earned? Like, should, do you earn it or do you just give it to or give it? Like, do you give it off the bat when you have a new employee, or you have a new boss, do you just say, okay, like, we’re going to be working together. Am I going to give you trust, or do you not trust them until they prove themselves to you? What’s your take on that? Cause it was actually a pretty big split in terms of how people see that. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: I think that’s it’s both. So I start always for the kind of person I am. For example, I start always assuming that people are acting and behaving in good faith and with good intentions. And so my starting position is I am open to trusting you. Then I am also aware that I need to be conscious, right. That is because stress is a complex experience, and it is made of many different behaviors. And here I am thinking Brene Brown and her seven behaviors, the BRAVING. She called them the seven behaviors that constitute trust because trust is a complex experience. I am open to trusting you, and at the same time, by interacting with you and by entering the relationship with you, I am at work, and we are colleagues, right. I know where I stand in relation to trust. If I know, for example, that for you is a little bit difficult to respect privacy, because maybe you never thought about it as an important element in the relationship. And therefore, it is easy for you to just talk about things that I confide in you with other people. Not because you’re bad, but just, you don’t think about it. Then there, it becomes a moment where we build one step further trust. I can come to you and have a difficult conversation non-judgmental, but I am expressing how I feel in relation to the way you handle privacy with respect to me. And that becomes an opportunity to build that element of trust. Right? So at that moment, you do earn a little bit. It is like if we have a jar and we put in a jar, all stones, then build trust, and then I will put in a jar of colorful stones because once we have that conversation and we have clarified that, I feel like that. Next time, at least you will think a little bit more right based on the conversation so that it will be a little bit of trust. So I am open to giving you trust. And then I am also aware, and I will pay attention with respect to my way of feeling that I can trust you, where do you stand? And how can I work with you to build more and more our ability to trust each other and our capacity for trust? So I think it is both given and earned at the same time. How to Get In Touch with Barbara Jenn DeWall: That’s important and the levels of trust that you might give it to you. And then it’s the opportunity to fill the jar after that. Barbara, I am so grateful for our conversation today. How can our audience get in touch with you? Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: There is my website, which is my name, BarbaraDallePezze.com, and there is also, I am on LinkedIn, active on LinkedIn. So just by typing in my name, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, which I always love. Jenn DeWall: You can also get your book, The Unexpected Gift on your website. Barbara, thank you so much for sharing your time, your thoughts, your beliefs, everything with our listeners today. I’m very grateful to have met you and had this conversation. Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze: Thank you so much! It has been really great having this conversation with you. And thank you for having me here. Jenn DeWall: Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Barbara. If you knew a friend that could benefit from hearing this podcast topic of how to be an effective leader, share it with them, or share it with a coworker, share it with your team. Together we rise. And of course, if you are interested in developing your leaders head on over to Crestcom.com, where you can schedule a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop, where we come into your organization to help you develop your leaders. And of course, if you want to connect with Dr. Barbara Dalle Pezze, you can head on over to her website, and there you can find additional information about her services as well as purchase her book, The Unexpected Gift. Until next time.   The post How to be an Effective Leader In Your Life with Barbara Dalle Pezze appeared first on Crestcom International.