The Leadership Habit

Heart-Powered Sales with Robin Treasure Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast, I sat down with Robin Treasure to talk all about heart-powered sales! Now, maybe you’re like me, and you hear the word sales, and you want to run. I don’t have the greatest confidence, or maybe you’re thinking, does this even relate to me? I don’t have a direct sales role. Well, whether we realize it or not, we actually are all in the business of influencing. And in my conversation with Robin today, she gives some great feedback out of her book, Heart-Powered Sales, on how you can approach sales with heart, intuition and emotional intelligence. But before we get into the show, let me tell you a little bit more about Robin. Robin Treasure is a sales trainer, a sales coach, and the number one best-selling author of the book, Heart-Powered Sales: Grow Your Sales Exponentially with Emotional Intelligence and Intuition. Robin worked in the functional medicine space for eight years as a health coach, top-performing sales rep and mentor, and she now coaches and trains sales professionals in the healthcare industry. Robin teaches others how she grew her annual revenue as a rep by more than 10-fold to a multimillion-dollar territory in the span of just five years for an industry-leading manufacturer of nutritional supplements. Robin is also a multilingual world traveler who has lived abroad in several different countries. After a successful first career as an Italian translator, she transitioned into sales with a key transferable skill needed in any capacity, in any language, which is emotionally intelligent communication. So enjoy the conversation as Robin, and I talk about heart-powered sales. Meet Robin Treasure, Author of Heart-Powered Sales Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone, It’s Jenn DeWall. So excited to be joined here on The Leadership Habit with Robin Treasure. We are going to talk about your book, your new book, Robin, Heart-Powered Sales. How are you doing today? Robin Treasure: I’m doing great. Jenn. I’m so excited to be here with you. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. Me too. And I love your energy. I love your message. I know that we’re gonna have a great conversation, and you’re talking about a topic that I’m afraid of. I’m just gonna be honest. I don’t consider myself a salesperson. I don’t consider myself a good salesperson. I consider myself a talker, which then I think people think maybe she is good at sales, but no, no, no. I have a lot of that head trash when it comes to sales. But before we get into talking about your book, I just wanna know. And I want you to share with our audience a little bit about yourself and how you even came to be how you came to write this book. So take it away, Robin. Robin Treasure:  Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, I will tell you that I can relate to those feelings of, you know, I’m not a salesperson. I don’t even, you know, I’m no good at it. For many years I had those exact same thoughts. Sales is a second career for me. My first career was as an Italian translator. If we have time, we could talk a little bit more about that. But essentially, when I came into my second career as a salesperson, I came to it because I was passionate about health and nutrition and being passionate about health and nutrition. I had my own health coaching practice for several years. And then, I came to learn of an opportunity to be a B2B sales rep for a company that made high-quality nutritional supplements, selling those supplements to healthcare practitioners who would use them in their practices to get better clinical results with their patients and also to add another stream of revenue to, to their practices. And, you know, at first, when I learned of this opportunity, I was very hesitant about it. I said things exactly like you just said. I’m no salesperson. I don’t know what I’m doing. You know, I don’t enjoy that. But someone helped to put it into perspective for me, which is, this is about you showing up and being of service and helping healthcare practitioners. And that changed everything for me. And I thought, well, I can do that. You know, I’m passionate about this subject matter. I love to help people. I love to show up and serve. And that was the beginning of a very successful five years in B2B sales as a sales rep. When I started, I, the annual, the annual revenue in my territory was $220,000. At the end of five years, it was 2.8 million. Jenn DeWall:  Wow! What Inspired the Book, Heart-Powered Sales? Robin Treasure:  So I, more than 10 X’d the territory in the course of those five years, and all along the way, it felt joyful. It felt easeful. It, it, I made people happy. I had healthcare practitioners telling me, you know, you’re the best rep ever. And so what inspired me to start writing the book is my thoughts each day of like, well, what, what is it that I’m doing? That’s making this work? What is it that I’m doing that makes this feel successful and useful and joyful? And of course, with hard work too, I don’t wanna give the impression that I wasn’t working hard. I was working very hard, but it was, it felt good. It felt natural. It felt, you know, it just came naturally to me. And so, what inspired me to write the book was realizing that there was a bit of a process and a system that I was putting together in my own way. And a lot of it was based on emotional intelligence and intuition. And allowing myself to feel guided each day by my intuition, but also having a real system in place, rolling up my sleeves, doing the work and connecting to people with emotional intelligence. And that was the third that connected back to my first career as an Italian translator. It’s all about emotionally intelligent communication, and sales is really about communication and service. Yeah. So that’s how I came to be. And, and in, you know, putting that all together, I felt very compelled and excited to write. I love to write. So I wrote the book and published it. Jenn DeWall:  So who was this for? Like when you were writing it? Who did you have in mind that you wanted to pick up this book? Robin Treasure:  So, this was primarily for colleagues of mine in my same field. So in the field of what’s, what’s known as functional medicine or root cause medicine. It’s a very special form of healthcare that really gets to the root cause. And nutritional supplements can be a big part of that. It’s lifestyle medicine. And there are many sales reps in this field that work for companies that produce nutritional supplements, or there are laboratories that do special lab testing. And there are many healthcare practitioners, and every healthcare practitioner is a business owner. And if they’re a business owner, they are in sales as well. Right? They’re reluctant salespeople, many of them, right? Yeah. Because they feel the way you do,  the way I did. Sales almost feels like a dirty word, right. Especially when you’re in the noble profession of healthcare where you wanna help people get better, how can you help them get better if you can’t bring them on as a patient? Same with coaching. How can you help your clients to realize the goals that they have in their lives if you can’t sign them on as a client? So that was my goal in writing this book is to help those people who are either reluctant salespeople, because they’re healthcare, you know, they’re business owners, maybe they’re coaches, maybe they’re health coaches, right. And help sales reps who are in this field, they’re passionate about health and nutrition, but they too may feel reluctant about being that classy, classic pushy salesperson. Yeah. Right. So that’s who I wrote it for. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. Well, and even thinking about any leaders, right? The leadership habit audience, we’re all in the business of sales, whether we realize it or not. And I just got done teaching a customer service class for Crestcom and even just talking about the importance of the first impressions with sales, like going to emotional intelligence and first impressions how we were talking about it this morning was the first impressions you make with new employees, like influencing them to want to stay, to want to contribute, to want to be a part of your organization or team. And so, even if you might be thinking right now, sales, what do you mean by sales? I think there are two things that we all try to pretend that we’re not in– the business of customer service and the business of sales! And both of us, or we’re all actually, in those, to some extent, our customers might just look different. What we’re trying to influence someone to do might look different. So you wrote heart-powered sales, and I’m curious, what, like, what do you think are some of the things that people maybe get wrong? Because this is rooted in emotional intelligence. And I’m sure there are a lot of people that are listening right now that can relate to the pitch slapping that happens on LinkedIn, where people are constantly pushing information. I mean, I barely even accept requests anymore because I know that someone’s just trying to push information at me that I never wanted. So I’m curious from where you sit. Where do you think people are getting it wrong right now? The New ABCs Of Sales: Always Be Connecting, Curious, and Classy! Robin Treasure:  Absolutely. People are primarily getting it wrong. You know, like you just said that the pitch slapping that happens continually on LinkedIn, that’s offering a solution or service before you’ve ever determined a need before you’ve ever conducted a proper discovery with that prospect. That’s the wrong way to do it. The right way to do it is to approach it with an open mind, approach it with curiosity. In my book I talk about, you know, there’s the old Axiom always be closing, right? Jenn DeWall:  Oh yes. ABC always be closing! Robin Treasure:  ABC. And when you look at these LinkedIn pitches that immediately happen after connecting, that’s kind of an always be closing approach, right? That’s wrong. It’s old, it’s antiquated the way the new way to do it, that I advocate in my book is number one, always be connecting to form a connection. You have to have a dialogue, a conversation. You have to be willing to ask questions when you’re asking questions. You’re curious. So that’s the second ABC always be curious, be curious about whether or not your solution can, can help your prospect first ask them questions. What are their needs? What are their aspirations? Don’t assume that your solution will meet that. What will meet what they need. So always be curious and number three, always be classy, always be classy when you’re immediately reaching out and, you know, pitching someone without any kind of a connection that’s not classy. When you approach someone with a kind of pushy or aggressive, you know, you’re going to need this or want this. That’s not classy, right? You wanna always be approaching things from a place of with detaching emotionally from the sale. Okay. Don’t be emotionally attached to making the sale. You, can anticipate what a prospect may need, but don’t assume that you, that they need what you have. All of those things with all of those things in place, just approach it with openness and from a spirit of service, how can I serve you? Right. And so when you mentioned a few minutes ago about leadership that even in leadership really, you’re in sales, that we’re all in sales, it’s all about sales and customer service, no matter what capacity you’re operating in, that’s really so true. It’s really about how can I serve? How can I make your life better? And that’s whether you’re speaking to a prospect or if you’re a leader and you’re, you have, you’re working with a direct report, how can you make their life better? And when you approach it with that, which is a question, it’s not a statement, everything changes. Jenn DeWall:  Yes! Robin Treasure:  And you can really start to discover. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. So the three things like the ABCs, instead of always be closing, it’s always be connecting, always be curious and always be classy. And I wish that more people– I remember this is probably for maybe four years ago, I was looking for a new platform on behalf of someone else for a new product or service. And I met this individual that had it. And ultimately, the decision-makers, which was not me, had decided that you know, they weren’t really sure that it was a good fit to meet their needs. But talking about classy, this individual was the opposite of that. And I was so floored. They had sent me a really aggressive email because they were frustrated that we weren’t moving forward or hadn’t like progressed the dialogue. And I was shocked that I would actually get an email of that nature, of that emotion. And so I heard you say also like taking the emotions out of it, because now this individual, no matter what, I will never refer that company again, ever. Because I was so floored by how, and we ultimately, you know, may have worked together, but that closed the door forever. I will never work with them because I never ever want to be treated like that by someone that I should have been their customer. So that would’ve been my client. And if you’re, you know, teaching us this right in the beginning before we’re signing a contract, there’s no way that I wanna do business with you! The Importance of Emotional Intelligence in Sales Robin Treasure:  100%, yeah, 100%. And you hit the nail on the head. You said that they were frustrated, right? So again, emotion keeps coming into play. This is why emotional intelligence is so important. We as sellers have to be so aware of our own emotions, the emotions that we bring to the table. Now we can bring positive emotion to the table. Even with that, though, we have to be careful that we’re not being overly optimistic, overly excited or putting, having blinders on. Right. But certainly, when it comes to feeling frustrated, for example, that salesperson should have been able to take a big step back, be aware of what they were feeling and not let that cloud their communications with you or taint their communications with you, right? Being self-aware and being able to manage your own hopes, fears, and frustrations, we’re only human. Those emotions will come up, but we can’t let them taint the relationship with prospects. Right. And, and as you said, you know, you, you could have down the road, maybe be ready to work, to work with that, with that vendor. But at that point, they had just sealed the deal that that just wasn’t going to happen. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. I, I will never, and I, I hope I never run into them ever again. <Laugh> I just couldn’t, and I don’t, you know, I, yeah, I just was so surprised, I guess was the biggest thing. And I am big on— I’m a person that when you show me like who you are, like, I’m gonna believe it. I’m not going to assume that there’s something else that I’m missing because I think that’s one of the lessons of life. You have to trust those interactions. And I wanna hold space for humanity. Absolutely. But to an extent. You know, like, I’m not sure if you can talk to someone like that if I can actually trust you. So when you think about the starting point in sales of Heart-Powered Sales, where does that start for you to actually deliver on that, to show up in that way? How Do You Start Practicing Heart-Powered Sales? Robin Treasure:  Mm-Hmm <affirmative> so, so much of it really is taking that moment to become self-aware to ask yourself kind of check in with yourself, how am I feeling? You know, what are my aspirations for this interaction? And rather than just jumping in, diving into having a conversation, I really important, I really believe it’s important to drop into your heart. And the reason why is because we’re, we’re very cerebral, right? We constantly have logical processes that we’re following, which are wonderful. But along with that, we have a lot of thoughts spinning, you know, we’re kind of spinning, anticipating what’s gonna happen in the future. You know, kind of future tripping, whether it’s worrying or getting overly excited. So you need to come back to the center before you ever speak with your prospects and clients. And so, in order to come back to the center, I really believe it’s extremely helpful to drop into your heart. And what that means is on a very basic level, like close your eyes, take a deep breath, focus on the physical area of your heart and think of someone or something for which you are very grateful, something that you love, activate those feelings of just love and happiness and gratitude. It doesn’t have to have anything to do with the prospect or client that you’re about to meet with, but just getting into that state of being centered, calm, loving, and happy, then you’re coming at things from a much stronger place. Yeah. And I really believe it’s very powerful, What if I’m Not Confident as a Salesperson? Jenn DeWall:  Right? It sounds like you can almost position yourself to, or I guess what I have read, and I don’t even know what book this is coming from, but when we can step into gratitude, it can shift our mindset from a place of scarcity or lack to one of abundance to maybe seeing the potential that’s around us. What, what would you say to someone that’s maybe, you know, going back to in their head because I’m, I’m this person, right before a sales call. I, before I’m not even thinking about dropping into my heart, I’m thinking about what if I fail? What if this goes wrong? Like, how do you even soften those kind of nerves? Is that still the place? Or like, what if you’re just not feeling confident? Robin Treasure:  Yeah. You know, and it’s so common. We can all have those fears. Yeah. What if it goes terrible? What if I, you know, what if I fail? What if, what if you succeed? What if this, what if this is an amazing call, right? We, we should, if we’re going to entertain those thoughts of, you know, what, if it’s a disaster, let’s also entertain the thoughts of what if this is amazing, right? But in either case, it’s projecting too much. It’s not in the present. In the present, all you can do, you know, before a sales call, you should already be prepared. And I’m sure that you are. You’ve done. You’ve qualified your prospect. You’ve done whatever research you can do. You’ve prepared your questions in advance. And that’s a really important process that you can follow a very logical sequence of preparation. Once you’ve done that groundwork and you’re prepared, you’ve got everything written down. Now allow at least a few minutes, if not 10 minutes to just get centered. To drop into your heart. Because when you’ve allowed yourself to drop into your heart, there’s no room there for those fearful thoughts of what if I fail? What if I make a mistake? If you’re activating feelings of love and gratitude, it kind of crowds out those thoughts. There’s no space for those thoughts, Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, that nasty head trash. How do you, like, what is your recommendation? Because if I’m assuming that our listeners might be at varying levels of what they know with sales, I know that I am still a novice when it comes down to, I’ve heard a few of the things that are popular out there in terms of statements, but going down to the preparation phase. What does that even look like to someone that might be new to this? How, how, what do you, what advice do you give people for really getting that understanding of what they need to go into a meeting and be successful? Heart-Powered Sales Start with Empathy Robin Treasure:  Yeah. So in terms of getting prepared and doing your research, what you really wanna do is put yourself in the shoes of the prospect you’re going to be speaking with. What possible problems could they be facing? What could their challenges be? What could their aspirations be? Right. So both problems, you know, negative things and positive things, what are they hoping to achieve? So putting yourself in those shoes and anticipating those is an important process, an important part of getting prepared for that call, right? Sales is all about providing solutions to what people need. Bottom line. It’s super simple, right? Not easy, but simple. It’s what do they need? And what do they want? That comes down to empathy, putting yourself in their shoes and really understanding what could be going on for them and anticipating. But again, don’t assume, right? So if you anticipate that a client of yours may have trouble with generating revenue, you will want to ask questions that lead to that understanding. Is it actually true? Do they actually have trouble with generating revenue, or is there a different kind of problem? Right. If you assume, then you would simply jump in and say, I’ve got the best solution for you to generate X, Y, Z. You know, you can’t do that. That’s just slapping your solution onto them, right? Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. So, and that feels terrible to feel like I don’t even want this. What if I’m just being nice to talk to you or, yeah, it actually can feel very off-putting or rude when someone makes an assumption about something that you wouldn’t actually categorize or even call a problem. Robin Treasure:  Exactly. Exactly. So that’s why you can’t assume. And you can’t just jump in with your pitch. Even if you have the best solution in the world, they’re not going to want to hear it until they feel that you understand them, and hear them, can empathize with where they are. And that you are able to speak to what they need. So that the, the incredible solution that you’re offering is positioned in a way that it, it really reflects and, and meets them where they are. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Not where you want them to be. Robin Treasure:  <Laugh> yes. Not where, not where you want them to be. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Listen to Your Heart – Follow Your Intuition Jenn DeWall:  So, thinking about the lessons, I know we’ve talked about a few so far in your book. What other lessons do you think are really important for people to know from your book? Robin Treasure:  So another lesson that I would say is that we all have an incredible capacity for intuition. We all have this skill. It’s just a question of whether or not you’ve developed it and paid attention to it, and cultivated it. We all have the capacity for intuition, and this can be an incredible skill in sales and in leadership. Each day, we’re confronted with having to make decisions and choices. And sometimes, there’s a very linear process in coming to a decision. And sometimes, we don’t have all the data points that we need, and we need to rely on a different source of intelligence. And that’s what intuition is. So in your sales process, you can have a plan for reaching out to so many prospects per day and touching base with so many clients per day. But within that, what’s going to determine who you call first is that you choose one prospect over another. You can’t call all 10 of them simultaneously. Who are you going to call first? Right? So it’s within that structure that you can avail yourself of this incredible source of intelligence, which is our intuition. Jenn DeWall:  I love that! I wanna know how you kind of developed that because I think it, for some people they’re like, what do you mean intuition is still too woo-woo. Right? We don’t rely on it. And too, I think, and I’ve been in this and my business when I was starting out as a coach, all it took was one client that wasn’t a fit for me to never do it again. And I think I sensed it in my intuition, but I didn’t act on it because I was in the mode where I needed to get clients. I have to get clients. This is great. Oh my gosh, someone’s willing to invest in my services. That’s great. Even though all of the signs that it wasn’t gonna be a good fit were there. And ultimately, I ended up parting ways with them. Jenn DeWall:  And it, it was a great lesson for me, but I’m sure that there are other people listening to this that still might have that scarcity mindset of like, mm-hmm <affirmative> I have to get them or else if I don’t get these numbers or even the scarcity mindset to fill a position because you need them and then you might end up making the wrong hire. So what do you like, what do you recommend to be able to really empower or even tap into intuition when it’s something that might be foreign or B, we might just feel like I can’t listen to intuition. I just need the numbers. Robin Treasure:  Absolutely. Absolutely. And we’ve all been there. We’ve all made those bad decisions that, you know, at the time, we were logically like, well, I really need this client. I really need this opportunity. I’m gonna go with it. But then, in hindsight, like you said, you were actually seeing signs, and you were feeling an intuitive hit that this wasn’t, that this client wasn’t going to be a fit. So really paying attention to those signs. Use those quote-unquote disappointing opportunities as opportunities to learn and to understand how your intuition communicates to you. So in the situation that you just, that you just brought up, if you reflect on that, you might be able to recall, like where in your body did you feel intuition? I’m willing to bet that there was a signal. That you, the message was kind of. It was either coming from your heart or from your gut. Jenn DeWall:  In my gut! Robin Treasure:  From your gut! Okay. So yes, that’s often where people are feeling those messages, and often it can feel like maybe it’s a constricting feeling like you feel like, like a physical tightening or if it’s a, if there’s a positive, intuitive hit on, on a, you know, in a, in a different situation, that’s a very positive situation. You might feel a warming, expansive kind of feeling, right. So your body kind of connects you to that, those intuitive messages. And again, in reflecting on past experiences, you can kind of know like, oh right. That’s how my intuition was showing up. Those were the signals that I was getting. And so now, you know, for next time, right. And you can learn to listen to that. Jenn DeWall:  So for an exercise for our audience, going back and recalling the times that you had that good feeling and that intuition. And what did you notice happening in your body or your mind? And then also the flip side, doing what I just did recalling the time that you’re like, I knew it, maybe it’s even with the relationship, they were all the red flags, and I just went right past them and waved until I ultimately realized, oh, darn it, I am in the wrong place. And just taking an inventory of that. I love that as a beautiful place of not only self-awareness but just starting to be curious about the other things that you may or may not have noticed were going on at that time. I mean, because intuition is hard for a lot of people because, you know, for a variety of reasons, whether it be. Why do you think it is hard, actually? I’ll put that to you. Why do you think it’s hard for some people? Robin Treasure:  Yeah. I came to learn this and realize this more recently because I, too, you know. I mean, I am very guided by my intuition, but there are many times where I have a hard time accessing it. Here’s what I’ve realized. There are two main things that are going to cloud your intuition. One is your desires, and two is your fears. And so if you can first get in touch with, okay, what do I really wish was the case? And then take it away almost like a filter from a camera lens, take off that filter of what you wish would be the case and lay it to the side. Then ask yourself, what am I afraid of? What am I afraid is true? And take that off, like a filter from a camera lens. Now what you’re left with is your intuition and the Truth with a capital T., And sometimes it’s not what you wanna hear. Right? When, when, you know, when Jenn, when you really wanted that client, what you really wished was true is that this client was a fit for you. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. That’s a good point. I like that you’re disseminating the difference between our truth, the stories that we write in our minds and the truth of what is actually happening. Because again, a lot of people, I mean, I know it it’s easy before I even got into, you know, coaching gosh, way too long ago. I, I used to be that person that would really kind of think like, oh, well, if I think it, it must be true. So, you know, as a perfectionist, it would’ve been well, if I, you know, guided by, I’m not good enough. Well, that has to be true. Right. Because I think it, and I don’t, you know, I, I, there are a lot of people that may not realize that level of control within their thoughts of challenging that I think that’s an awesome point. Robin Treasure:  <Affirmative> so true. It’s so, yeah, if I think it, therefore it must be true. <Laugh> right, Jenn DeWall:  Right. Yeah. That’s true. I mean. That’s all the evidence I need. It’s like, well, I can think of a millionaire, and I’m not, but why do I hold everything else in the same way? You know, I can understand rationality with that. Well, no, I’m not. So why can’t I test that too? Like, I’m not worthless. I’m not blank. Yes. You know, the last thing I wanna like kind of talk about is like the structure of sales, because if you’re even into this, do you have any tips and techniques around structure, what people could be doing, how they should be approaching their process, they drop into the heart, you know, applying the ABCs in terms of the attitude, getting into their emotions and intuition, then what do they do with all like once they’re there what’s the action steps that they should take? How to Take Action for Heart-Powered Sales Robin Treasure:  So the action steps are so important as well. And so, you know, first, you just wanna be clear on what are you know, what are the most effective actions that you can take that are really going to move the needle in your business and, and in your sales, right? So you wanna create a business plan, and your business plan does not have to be super complex. In fact, I think it’s better if it all fits onto one page, really. And in yes. And in that one page, it should only include things that are gonna move the needle for you and your sales and B things that you’ll actually do. <Laugh> right. Jenn DeWall:  Can we talk about that? That is a big one within entrepreneur land, or even when we’re setting strategic plans in general. It’s yeah. I can think about a million things that are great that maybe another coach or speaker is doing or another organization or consultant or whatever that might be. Yes. That doesn’t mean they’re right for me. Yes. Why do people pursue that? I mean, why, why do we do the stuff that we know we actually hate? <Laugh> Robin Treasure:  It’s a really good question. And, you know, and, and because we see that it’s working for other people, so we think, therefore it must work for me. But if it doesn’t align with who you are and what you love, you’re going to put up so much resistance to it. And so it’s not going to work. You know, so the most effective strategy that you can take is the one that you’ll actually do and do consistently, don’t just do it once or twice, and then kind of give up or kind of, you know, get shiny object syndrome and go on to the next thing. Consistency is key when it comes to sales and leadership and, you know, business in general, right? Consistency is key. And so identifying, okay, how many prospects am I going to contact each day, each week? How many sales meetings am I going to aim to have? Out of all the sales meetings that I have, how many actually convert into paying clients? Make those calculations get really comfortable with the numbers because once you have the numbers in place of, oh, okay, looks like in order to secure two new clients, I need to have, you know, six outreach calls, whatever it is, follow that process, put that in place, make that your weekly action step and your weekly goals, your goals should be something that you can control. How many prospects you reach out to. You cannot control how much revenue you bring in. You can aim for it, but you can’t actually control it. How Do We Deal with Rejection as Heart-Powered Salespeople? Jenn DeWall: So what about, I wanna ask one, I know that we’re gonna be, be wrapping up soon, but the piece that– I know consistency is so important, but what about when rejection happens? Because it is hard to be resilient. And then I think that can disrupt. I’ll just speak for myself that when rejection happens, that’s when I typically will kind of be like, okay, stop my efforts. Maybe give up momentarily. Just be discouraged. How do you, like, what type of advice do you have for people that might be like, I love this. And then, all of a sudden you get the Big No. And you’re like, why do I even try? Robin Treasure:  Oh, it can be so hard. And so deflating. And, you know, I’m very sensitive, and I used to take rejection so hard! Being in sales has actually been a gift because I’ve learned to take rejection in a much different way. So to answer your question, the first thing is, yeah, it’s disappointing and deflating. Honestly, and you can allow yourself 30 minutes to feel sorry for yourself if you want, you know, and to feel bad and to just kind of sit with that disappointment because it is disappointing. But then what you have to remind yourself of is it’s not about you, it’s not about you, it’s that what you had to offer wasn’t right for that client at that time, or they have other concerns and priorities that are much bigger than what was discussed with you. There could be a million different things going on. It’s not about you when you’re being rejected, just like making the sale is not about you. It’s about what is going to best serve that client. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. I love that. It’s not about you. Robin, what would be any final thoughts that you feel like we maybe missed or that you would want to share with our audience? Robin Treasure:  Hmm. You know I think what I would like to say is that we’re really moving into a new era of business. A new way of doing things, right? And this is an exciting time to be in leadership to be in sales because it’s becoming more inclusive. There’s much more emphasis on empathy and understanding, and service. And this is where we wanna be. We wanna be in a world where a rising tide lifts all boats, where the work that you do compliments the work that I do, you know, where it’s not about competition, it’s about it’s, it’s about everyone being in it together and understanding one another, bringing more understanding into the world. Really that’s what it’s about is just bringing more understanding into the world and meeting people where they’re at. How to Connect with Robin Treasure Jenn DeWall:  I love that. Yeah. Robin. I took away so much from what you said. I still love the ABCs are not the always be closing, but always be connecting, curious and classy! That one, I think, is just always gonna stick with me because it’s just a really nice reminder of how to show up. But then, of course, not taking it personally, remembering that even in the sales process or the rejection process, it’s not about you, and you get to write that truth. So write the one that’s gonna be productive, Robin. Where can people go and get your book? Robin Treasure:  Thank you. This has been such a joy. So to get my book, people can go to Amazon. My book is on Amazon. It’s Heart-Powered Sales, Heart-Powered is there’s a hyphen between it heart-powered sales. You can also go to my website, which is RobinTreasure.com Robin with an I, and you can learn more about my book there and my, my coaching services as well. Jenn DeWall:  Awesome. Thank you so much for giving your, I love it, your example of servant-based leadership, your service, your knowledge, and your time to us. We are very grateful for it. Thank you for joining us on The Leadership Habit. Robin Treasure:  Thank you so much. It’s been a real joy. Thank you. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit Podcast. If you want to get to know more about Robin, you can head on over to her website, RobinTreasure.com. You can also find her book, Heart-Powered Sales on Amazon, and you can also connect with it and find it on her website. Now, of course, if you know someone that could benefit from this podcast episode, please share it with them. And please leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform. And of course, if Crestcom can help you with any of your leadership development needs, whether it’s improving your communication or developing your confidence, head on over to Crestcom.com and find out how we can offer you a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop! Until next time.   The post Heart-Powered Sales with Coach and Author, Robin Treasure appeared first on Crestcom International.

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I sat down with Mark J Silverman to talk about how you can confront your to-do list to transform your life. Now, let me tell you a little bit about our guest today. Mark is an executive coach, an author, and a podcast host. He works with leaders and their teams around the world to address the underlying behaviors and minds that sabotage all time management and productivity tools. And today, on the show, Mark is going to help you maximize where you shift and devote your attention. So you can be sure that you’re focusing on the right things and, Hey, the things that you want to focus on. So I hope that you get some great tips out of this. Enjoy this podcast as Mark, and I talk about confronting your to-do list and transforming your life. Meet Mark J. Silverman, Executive Coach, Author and Podcast Host Jenn DeWall:  Mark Silverman. It is so great to have you. I mean, we’re doing this podcast on a Monday, and we’re gonna be talking about how we can essentially transform our lives today. I’m just so happy to talk about your book. I’m so happy to get to know more about you and your style, but Mark, go ahead. Welcome to the show. And if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself. Mark Silverman:  Thank you. I love your energy. So getting, getting on a Zoom call with you is, is quite a bit of fun. Thank you. My origin story. So I have severe ADHD. I’m a drug addict, an alcoholic— pretty much a loser in life for the first part of my life. And so that’s, that’s the origin story. By the time I was 27, I was homeless, living in my truck, and 135 pounds. So when I come to success, when we talk about leadership, when I talk about time management, anything that I talk about, I view it through the lens of it’s all a foreign country to me, right? So when, when I, when, when, when I got sober, and I started going to college in, at 27, you know, and, and I, and I became really, really successful and had the million dollar house and the nice car and the family and the two kids. Living in an affluent neighborhood and being that guy was a completely foreign concept to me. So that’s why the lens is a little bit different. When I became successful in high-tech sales, I worked for a few really cool startups. I made lots of money, which was, again, a weird thing to go from living in my truck to wearing Hugo boss suits. Yeah. But later on in life, when things started to fall apart, when I really didn’t do, you know, I was sober, but I didn’t do the internal work to grow up enough to be able to handle success, marriage, children, all that stuff. Stone cold sober that started to fall apart. I started to feel the stress of that midlife crisis kind of thing. You know, a decade and a half later really took me down. So stone-cold sober. My marriage fell apart. My health fell apart. I couldn’t sell anything. And so this, now I needed a second Renaissance. I needed to build myself back up again. And again, what happened was I became successful because I was trying to prove that I wasn’t this homeless loser guy, right. So I bought a nice car, nice clothes, all that stuff. And I outworked everybody, and I just did everything I could to not be that guy, that motivation, though. It gets us to success. And every successful person, I, every uber-successful person, I know has some kind of dark secret that pushes them to that level. If you look at Michael Jordan or Elon Musk or any of these people, a lot of them are driven by, you know, a hole inside. And the success is celebrated, but there’s something else going on. So for me, that fell apart, and I put it back together. I got myself healthy again, and my career took off again. But this time, I did it by listening to every self-help book, every spiritual book, listening to, you know, everything I possibly could in order to build back a new person. Right. So now, fast forward, I leave high-tech sales. I leave having a sales manager and having my numbers looked at by other people, right. You know, never, never underestimate the value of a sales manager, right? Like that someone that you’re a little scared of right now, every time your numbers go up on the board, you’re, you’re terrified of being at the bottom. Now I’m an entrepreneur. Now I’m my own boss. And I gotta tell you. I am an awful boss. The ADHD never left. Jenn DeWall:  Entrepreneurship is hard! It’s so hard. <Laugh>. Confronting Your To-Do List When You’re the Boss Mark Silverman:  And nobody told me when I, when, when, when I was convinced to become a coach. I wasn’t looking to be a coach when I was convinced to be a coach by one of the authors that I was reading. You know, they talked about how, you know, you could have a six-figure business and, you know, meanwhile, I was taking care of my ex-wife, my kids, my elderly parents. Right. I was, I, you know, I was the financial hub of my family. So when I became a coach, I didn’t realize that mastering coaching is one thing— mastering entrepreneurship, mastering business— was another. So that was an eye-opener to me. So for me to sit down at my desk, the world is my oyster. I have the entire day to create and do things right. The laundry got done. <Laugh> the house got clean. The dogs got played with. Right, right. So YouTube videos got watched. And so, I was really at a loss of how I could keep myself on track. So the original book was called Using Distractions to Get the Right Things Done because it was about me learning entrepreneurship and self-leadership with ADD. The subsequent title is Confront Your To-Do List, Transform Your Life because I rewrote it five years later. We updated it because when I wrote it, I wrote it for me. I needed a PhD in how to get things done when the whole world wanted my attention. So I wrote the book for myself and possibly my mother. Maybe one or two other people would buy the book. I had a couple of friends < Laugh> when I wrote the book. Originally a thousand copies went out the door. I think it was 1500 copies. Went out the door the first day. Then 1500 the next day. Right? So We had 75,000 copies and counting. So people resonated with this book. Friends of mine and coaches would say they give it to their CEO clients. So now this new updated version is, is, you know, for me the business book that I wanted to write, but here’s the crux of it. What I figured out was I always do what I wanna do, and I don’t do what I don’t wanna do. Only ever. We can pretend that we wanna do things, but usually, what we’re doing is we’re avoiding a consequence, or we’re looking for a reward. And when I saw that— when I saw that, if I really wanted something, let’s say the new iPhone came out, and I had work to do that day. Guess what? I was online getting the iPhone. Of course. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Why not? You gotta get the iPhone. I can relate to that! Mark Silverman:  When I wanted the sonic-blue when I put a picture of a Sonic blue Lexus convertible up on my wall, it wasn’t two weeks later that I was driving that thing off the lot. So the lie that I don’t do, what I, you know, like I can’t get anything done was a, was a big red flag for me. And I started to look at my week, and I made the decision one day that I was only gonna do what I wanna do. I was gonna follow my intuition. I was gonna follow my juice. I was only gonna do what was really important to me. And it usually was that one or two or three things in a day now, before everybody hits the panic button we do more than three things in a day, but I really wanted to see— what I wondered, you know, if it’s really, really important. So let’s say it’s urgent and important on that whole, on that scale. Or let’s say I have juice for it. So now I’m a podcaster. So an example was if I have an idea for a podcast, a solo podcast, right? If I don’t run to my microphone with the idea for that solo podcast and record it, that idea goes away, right? So I trust that intuition. But then let’s say I have to pay the electric bill. It’s the 30th of the month. And the electric bill comes in. I don’t feel like opening the account, paying the electric bill, or doing all that stuff. That’s not something I feel like doing, but the consequence I wanna avoid is my electricity being shut off. That’s a very simplistic thing. So now I started to look at things. Now I started to look at a lot of the things on my to-do list was on my to-do list because other people expected me to do them. Now, when I started to look at the things that were on my list that I didn’t particularly wanna do, I just agreed to them because I don’t know how to set a boundary or, you know, that that was an eye opener for me. There were a whole bunch of things that I was doing because they were a good idea. Someone told me they were a good idea, or they asked me to do it. And I just didn’t say no. So when I started weeding through that, I realized, oh my God, I need to learn to set boundaries. I need to learn to say no. Then I would go. And let’s, let’s, let’s use today’s example. So my audiobook is being read, right? I, I keep saying, I’m gonna read my audiobook, and I never get to it. And I hired a guy to read my audiobook. And he said he would have it by last Wednesday. And I contacted him on Friday. I said, you know, I haven’t seen my book. Haven’t heard from him, contacted him this morning. He goes, oh my God, I’m so sorry. You will have it by tomorrow. And I said, dude, have you read my book? <Laugh> like, because he is reading my book. I said, first of all, you said you were gonna do it in four days. That was impossible. So, you know, you could have now negotiated said, Mark, I’ll get it to you in a week. Got it to me in five days, you know, under promise over deliver. Yep. Right. Or you could send a note to me on Wednesday when you said it would be done and say, you know what? I need a few more days. Right. So keep your agree. So now I started to learn that I could renegotiate agreements. We Only Do What We Want to Do on Our To-Do Lists Mark Silverman: So if I said I would do something this week and I don’t have time to do it, I could call someone up. And I could say, you know what? I promised you this on Friday, but I’m not gonna have it done on Friday. If it’s really, really essential, let me know. And I’ll reprioritize things. But if you are okay, if I can have it to you by next Wednesday and they, you know, nine times outta 10, they’re like, yeah, sure. Who cares? Like when he said I haven’t had done, I’m like, dude, I’ve been waiting five years to write, read my book. If you take a couple of extra days, I don’t care. I just want communication. Right. I don’t wanna keep my agreements. So now I learned that I didn’t have a time management problem or honesty problem with other people< Laugh>. I had an honesty problem with myself, right. What I was willing to do, what I’m gonna do. And I have a difficult conversation problem. I have an authenticity problem. Right? I wanna be liked. I wanna be all things to all people. I get my self-esteem from being all things to all people only all the time. And when I realized, oh my God, I am not the owner of my experience. Right. I’m a victim of my wanting to please and be everything to all people to look sharp, to look great. So that’s the premise of the book. It’s looking at your to-do list and figuring out why everything’s on there and then learning to guard it like a junkyard dog, because that’s the other big thing that I realized when I was in my forties, is I only have one life to live. And if I’m living that life, doing things I don’t feel like doing, I don’t wanna do, and aren’t important? Like there are a lot of things you don’t feel like doing but are important. So you find no reason to want ’em. I get to create my own life. I never knew that. So this whole book, for me, is about taking charge of your life, creating life the way that you want to, one to-do item at a time. How’s that for the origin story. Making a choice to Do Things Differently Jenn DeWall:  Well, and there’s, so I love that. I, well, there’s so much to unpack there, right? The first question I would even ask is— at 27, what was the like realization or the, oh my gosh. Something has to change. Like, how did you muster up the energy to do that? Because I sometimes think when we find ourselves in those places, it’s so easy to say, like, there’s no hope, right? Like it’s easy to give up hope. And so what my curiosity, because if someone else is maybe struggling with the same things that you shared, which we know that we see that, and actually people might maybe not be as honest as you about it. Right? People are just kind of hiding that. So if you had to say someone that might be at that same crossroad, what advice would you give to someone before, like kind of making that choice to go into a different direction? Mark Silverman:  So let’s start with, with, you know, there wasn’t a lot of I, I’m not gonna give myself any credit for having an epiphany. I was, I needed to borrow some money. So I, I was living in my truck. So I drove to Washington DC to borrow some money from my brother so that I didn’t have to live in my truck. When I got to DC, my brother said, yay, I’ll go. You can have some money, but you’re gonna go to AA and you’re gonna go to NA and you’re gonna go to the gym and you’re gonna enroll in a college class. And you can live with me. So my brother is the one who saved my life and got me sober. I had no in again; remember, I didn’t wanna get sober. I wanted the money that he was willing to give me so that I could live. Mark Silverman:  What happened was I took to the AA meetings and the NA meetings, like a duck to water. And I found people that I cared about. I really had no place else to go. So I started, you know, just going to meetings every day. And you know, that was 33 years ago. You know, one day at a time. My kids have never seen me drink. Right? My ex-wife has never seen me drink. My current husband is never seen me drink. So that that’s what happened. The advice for other people is let people help you. Like my big thing was I was such a piece of crap that I couldn’t allow anybody to help me. I could allow people to give me money and things, you know, when I was desperate, but to actually let someone into my life to help me and, and, and support me, you know, that self-esteem, wasn’t even high enough to allow that. And I would say you are worth it, no matter what you’ve done, no matter where you’ve been, no matter what you look like, your intrinsic value is there, let someone help you because your story. And again, I see, you know, my story really is inspirational to other people, right? I see the worst thing that ever happened to me turns out to be the best thing that ever happened to me, because I have love and compassion for people who have, you know, fallen. So your, your story someday will save another life. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. Well, and the like right there too, like, you matter, you are worthy no matter what chair you’re in, what car you’re driving right now, you matter, even if you’re feeling at your lowest lows, which I know the world feels heavy right now, and work can be super challenging. And so give yourself some grace and like that foundational element of you matter. And going back into your book, you know, I think you hit on so many pieces within your origin story, whether it’s, Mark Silverman: I’ve never told it that way, by the way that was, that was, that was that was, that was, that was the most original riff I’ve done on, on how I came to be to this day. Your To-Do List Can’t Fill the Hole in Your Soul Jenn DeWall:  I, no, thank you for your honesty, right? We, we, we rise by lifting others, and every person is both your teacher and your student, like, just hearing your story and really kind of how you came about these. Like, oh my gosh, why am I doing what I’m doing? And I think a lot of people, we find ourselves, and I know that you specialize within working with the C-suite, like we do find ourselves in these places of feeling like we constantly have to prove it. I know that for me. And one of the things that you had shared, I have a huge part of my identity that’s attached to my career. And so when things are going well, I feel really great when things might not be going well, or I perceive them to not meet the high expectations that I have. That’s when more of that mental health, you know, becomes a challenge or on the flip side, that’s when my do list starts going, like adding, adding, adding of things that I really don’t wanna do, just because I’m trying to prove that I’m enough. And I think you hit on so many things within that. And so, Mark Silverman:  Or we’re, we’re all trying to prove that we’re enough. It just looks different for everybody. Right? Some people, it’s an achievement, some people, right? Some people, it’s actually crashing and burning because they got to love when they were at their lowest. Right. That one of my things is when I, you know when I crashed, people cared about me. Right? So, so that there’s, there’s so many ways to try and get love. Whether it’s overachieving, whether it’s underachieving, whether no matter what it is. Looking good, all that stuff it’s always to fill that hole. That’s because only everything leads to that hole in the soul. Jenn DeWall: You know, I love that you bring that up because you and I both, you know, talking to different audiences sometimes when you bring that topic to people, people might say like, I don’t do that, that doesn’t. And so I’m curious, why do you think people avoid maybe acknowledging or embracing the fact that we do and are our harshest critics trying to prove it? Because I, I just notice that for some people they get it, but then there are always a few people that resist it. Like, no, no, no, no. Like I’ve got all my stuff figured out. I’ve never had an issue and I don’t buy it. I don’t know. Do you see that in your line of work? Mark Silverman: I’ve never met a person who doesn’t that hole in their soul. Right. <Laugh> and, and I, and, and it’s intrinsic in, in just becoming a human being. But the, the reason we avoid it is that one, it just feels so painful. Two it’s it’s usually ancient. It’s usually early childhood. It’s usually something so deep and it feels bottomless. I can’t tell you how many workshops I’ve led, or have participated in or been, you know, the guy on the floor crying, right? That I’ve, I’ve seen grown, billionaires CEOs, you know, who never showed weakness in their lives, crying like a baby in the, you know, in somebody’s arms when they touch that pain. The gorgeousness of that is it’s not endless, right. There is, there is healing when you, when you let that out. That, so, so for me I, and it’s taken me a long time to realize that no matter how, and that’s one of the reasons I’m effective in the C-suite is because I know that, you know, I don’t care. I wear a solid gold watch. I don’t care. Right. I was homeless. I don’t give a **. I know what’s going on with people that I’m talking about to. And even if they don’t admit it, admit it for four or five meetings later. Now I’ll tell people, people will tell me all the time. You know, like, no, I don’t have that. I don’t have that. I don’t have. And then like weeks later, they’ll be, you know, that thing you said about the hole in the soul a few weeks ago? Dude, it’s it’s here. You’re you, you were right on the money. And meanwhile, they’re protesting constantly. So I have to be steady in knowing who human beings are in order to be able to coach that way. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Do Men and Women See it Differently? Jenn DeWall: Okay. I wanna ask a question as it relates to a man. Gender in the workplace. Because I think that that expression is so different, so what’s your take on, you know, helping people maybe overcome, I don’t wanna call it toxic masculinity, but it is that masculine. I have to be the hero that like, does this? How do you help maybe men come to that point of recognition and acceptance that it’s okay to be human? Because I think that they are, you know, whether it’s messages from media, whether it’s messages from how they’re, you know, grew up, I think there is a piece and we could also go on the flip side, with women, like, Hey, you can cry, but you can’t be angry. Like it’s, we were both taught different things, but how do you maybe help? I would say men who have been really conditioned that like, you don’t acknowledge that, or you don’t show that, like how to do you actually like hold space for that to help them recognize like it’s okay to be human. Mark Silverman:  Well, first of all, how, you know, how many women go into the workplace, right. With their masculine, with their masculine flag planted, right? Yeah. They forget their femininity. They forget their feminine power. They forget being powerful women. They have to go be dudes, right? You know, pretty dudes in the, in the workplace. And then they go cry in the bathroom cause they can’t show weakness in the boardroom because it’s doubly, you know, it’s doubly— Jenn DeWall:  Been there! Cried in many bathrooms! Mark Silverman:  So, so it’s you know, so that hard shell that you put on to get into the corporate world, right. Very few women. And it’s more and more realize that a powerful woman in her feminine is so much more effective in the workplace than a woman. Who’s just all her masculine. But that’s on, that’s a new phenomena, I think in the world. Now for men, I can’t turn men on a dime. Right. You, you know, a CEO will build a company, you know, because again, remember that I said that, you know, the drives and motivations that get us to our twenties and thirties, turn on us in our forties and fifties. Right. Those things that get us to success, we have to start looking at it midlife. Same thing with leadership. The things that got these guys to leadership was that brute force was that toxic masculinity. Right? So for the, to take that tool away from them is terrifying. So I would never take that tool away immediately. Right? We take pieces of the tools. We show them the effects of some of their behavior. And we turn that slowly and it, it, it actually, it’s breathtaking. It’s what you can do in a year with someone. It may look like week after week. You know, I talk to people all the time. So I do a 360 review with all of my clients. 360 review is where you go and you talk to peers, you go talk to superiors. You go talk to people who are underneath you and you, and you get a 360 view of what your anonymous 360 view of what your behavior is in the workplace. That 360 is so powerful. When I have to tell someone, people will not tell you the truth, because they’re terrified of your reaction, right? And to be able to— he art form to be able to speak truth, to power that way. You know, you’re toxic to your female employees or you’re toxic. One of the feedbacks I had to give is once you make a decision about someone, they might as well quit because you will never let them redeem themselves in your eye. They make a mistake and they’re done. And it’s like, I didn’t know I did that. Right. I just didn’t know. Right. So we can start slowly showing them the behavior. But telling them you have toxic masculinity is gonna do nothing. Most people will respond if lovingly shown the effects of their behavior. Because most people don’t see the effects of their behavior. I have one, I have one VP who is just, he’s a strong personality. And what I have him doing is walking around, noticing how people are when he walks into a room, noticing, you know, just take a couple of deep breaths and notice someone’s body language while you’re talking to them. And he said, he, you know, after, after a week of being conscious and we talked the next week, he says, I saw people shrinking. Right. I saw people not speaking their mind. I saw it for the first time. Great. Now we can work on the tools on how to shift. And by the way, I don’t really have to work that hard. Because once they see it, now, the natural wanting to shift comes in. Prioritizing Your To-Do List Jenn DeWall:  Right? Oh, well. And I like the, you know, the thinking about the book, because so many people come into, you know, a coach where they’re like, I want the solution. I want the solution to fix this chaos or this stress or this. And it always starts within. And that’s what your book is, Confront your To-Do List and Transform Your Life. You know, we can give you tools for prioritization and time management and how to do that. But it has to start with understanding how you make decisions, and how you prioritize. So let’s bring it back to the book now. And thank you so much for just sharing your approach to that. Because I think I obviously like, and share my, you know, experience as a woman in the workplace. And like, what I think is unfair fair, not fair, but I do wanna hold space also for men. It’s not that it’s just, you know, women were the only ones, and we need to be able to like have space for both people to understand how we came to be and be curious about that. But coming back to your book, where do you even then begin? So you’re starting with that self-awareness piece. And I’m curious because self-awareness so many different people have different approaches to it. You know, this is how you get it. I notice, or I heard you say the 360-review, how do you really work with someone too? I guess, establish that. Self-Awareness because, Hey, that’s where the resistance also lives is like, I don’t wanna take that on. I don’t wanna be seen as that person. No way! How do you start with that? Mark Silverman:  Well, in my coaching, it’s a little bit different. So in my coaching, it’s the 360 in my coaching. It’s also I see things, right. I’m an empath. I’m intuitive. I’ve been there, done that. Right. I’ve worked with so many people. So I can say like when sales one of the things is you always ask questions that, you know, the answers to right. And, and just kind of get them to, you know, move along. You ask these questions to establish credibility. And then when, when you do that, then people start to put their guard down and then you can ask the questions and find out what you don’t know. Same thing is with these people that I coach, if I ask pertinent questions that make them think if I, if I make a statement, sometimes I’ll bold and I’ll say, you know you know, so you’re 55 years old and you know, your health is your, you know, your health is deteriorating and all that. And I’ll get my health. My health is fine. I, I remember this particular one particular guy, my health is fine. I’m good. And then just as we’re leaving, we, we stand up and he says, by the way, I had a heart attack three years ago. Did you know that? I’m like, I didn’t know it was a heart attack, but I knew it was gonna be something right. Like you, you’re a pasty white kind of doughy guy. You’ve been in the hospital. Right. So I have to know that, but as far as the to-do list piece and for the book for me, the huge piece was when I said, when I have juice for something, when I have, when I have a want to do something, you know, there’s a difference between dopamine hits. There’s a difference between distractions wanting to do something, right? I really want to go finish the last episode of The Boys from Amazon or this TV show I’m watching. Right. I really want to go do that. That’s a distraction. So for me, learning to slow down meditation, journaling, learning what’s in my heart, right? What that desire is, what’s, what’s inspired action versus what’s a dopamine hit? And that takes time that’s trial and error. That’s just making it a laboratory, right? Oh, look, I went over here. That was avoiding my work. So for me a thing that would look good, that that is a distraction is I love making worksheets. I am just crazy. Like, oh, I have an idea. I’m gonna make a worksheet about people skills versus versus people skills. Because I said something on a podcast that most people think people skills are this, but people skills are really this. So I’m gonna make a worksheet on that now. Yes. It’s great for me to make a worksheet, but that’s usually in place of me making sales calls. You know, like there’s certain things that I put as tens on my list and I fall back to let’s make a worksheet. <Laugh> so you know that I’ve, I’ve learned that about myself. Actually. I didn’t know about myself. It was my accountability partner who is like, you know, Mark, you have enough worksheets. Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Well, it’s really easy to get lost in a worksheet haha! Mark Silverman:  What you really need to do is make five phone calls this week. Like I’m an introvert. I would much rather work on a worksheet. Beware Of Dopamine Distractions Jenn DeWall:  I, you know, I love that you share that because it is, it starts with that recognition. Like how are you spending your time? And I can, you know, your message resonated with me because I struggle a lot with prioritization, a lot with focus. Now part of that they might say is because of MS. I have no idea if I could have something like, you know, other than that going on, but like, it is super difficult for me to sometimes follow through, but it’s super easy to go for the dopamine hits to be like, well, I feel really good. Like, even if I’m just doing something simple, like I’m gonna take out the trash and recycling! Like, even though I could be doing something different, I still am like, please did that. And that was good. And then I avoid maybe some of the things that actually will be more beneficial for those dopamine hits and it’s so much easier too, when like I perceive that task to be like, you know, determining what that level of, I guess, energy investment that it requires. But what, what are other reasons do you think that people sometimes avoid or like pursue the, the dopamine hit versus the inspirational? Like this is gonna make Mark Silverman:  Me feel good because we’re trained rats. We’re just trained rats. We want the pellet and that’s it. We are, you know, like the reason certain foods taste good, you know, back way back when we got the dopamine hit of eating an orange, right? Like that, that kind of thing. But we are, we are bombarded all day, every day by people spending billions and billions and billions and billions of dollars to get our attention. We have an attention core in our pocket all day, every day. Right? That, that phone, if you, if you don’t think you’re addicted to your phone, you’re lying. You don’t, you’re, we’re, we’re so addicted and you can’t go to a restaurant now without three TVs, one with sports, one with news, you know, you, you can’t get away from this. I’m reading a book by Johan Hari called stolen focus. And he just talks about how it’s in the air. Everywhere you go. You cannot, you cannot get away from this attention suck. So we’ve been trained away from deep work. We’ve been trained away from the dopamine hit. I interviewed a guy on my podcast who talks about porn and how it’s probably the leading cause for young men to not reach their potential. It’s not drugs and all that stuff. It’s, it’s fricking porn. And he talks about how your dopamine receptors get fried from either video games or porn, right. Because that’s just, it’s just exciting and it gets you going and all this stuff, and there’s a payoff to it. And then you need more and more. We used to get a dopamine hit from completing a piece of work, right? A task, planting a bush in our garden. Just, you know, sending, sending, sending a piece of work to our boss. We get that dopamine hit, but now our dopamine receptors are all fried. So we don’t get that hit from it. So it’s not exciting to finish a piece of work. It’s not exciting to even win a sale because we are so used to getting our, dopamine from junk food or news, like, you know, for me, it’s political Twitter. I would much rather be outraged at what I read on Twitter than get a piece of work done because I’ve trained my body to respond to that. And we all have. And wrestling our attention from that, taking our electronics and putting it out. Get an Accountability Buddy to Help Confront Your To-Do List Mark Silverman: I have to, in order for me to get anything done, I have to take electronics out of my, my, my purview, my view, and I have to put headset on and I have to, you know, I put a ADD music on, or I will, you know, if I really need to get something done, I, and I, I found out that people are actually doing this buddy thing. I have a friend who also has to get something done and we open up zoom. We do a two hour session and say, what are you gonna get done in this two hours? Great check in, in an hour. Great. No, no gossip. We’re not talking. We are just looking at each other on the screen while we get our work done. And it’s amazing what happens when you just put a, put a buddy on zoom and get that work done. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. Mark Silverman: do my taxes every year with someone sitting on the screen doing whatever she’s supposed to be doing. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. I feel like I need to take that idea. And start doing it. Mark Silverman:  It. It’s brilliant. It’s so brilliant. There’s now a service. Jenn DeWall: It’s just, yeah. I, oh, my it’s a service. That’s actually even more brilliant. Mark Silverman:  I haven’t researched it. Someone just texted me because I talk about this all the time, you know about this accountability and having, just, just having an energy of someone else on, on zoom up in the corner of my laptop, keeps me on track and someone sent me a link and I haven’t looked at it yet— to this service. Jenn DeWall:  I, I need to look into this service. So what would you say? Like knowing that we have probably, you know, a few minutes left here, like what, how would we unpack? Like or how do we begin to confront our to-do list? I know we talked about a few things in terms of more conceptual way, but is there like a process that you have or a framework that you Recommend? Check out Special Resources for The Leadership Habit Audience Mark Silverman:  So, the first thing is for your, for your, for your listeners, we put it, we made a page specifically for the people who listen to The Leadership Habit so that they can actually look at it,  instead of reading the book, they don’t even have to read the book. My clients won’t read my book. All my clients have ADD. They won’t read my book. So they want little five-minute videos. I Jenn DeWall:  Blinkist. That’s what I that’s what a lot of people do now is just Blinkist. Get the short format Mark Silverman:  Because we don’t have the attention span to read a stupid book. Right. I read about two dozen books a year, but I force myself to sit in the morning and read every day. But I make these little videos. So you go, so when I tell you what to do, you can go and follow up on The Leadership Habit page. The first thing you do is write down everything, and then you look at it, and you look at it with discerning eyes. Do you look at it with why is this on my to-do list? And then you start looking at, oh, this is supposed to be delegated, right? That’s a huge one for most of my executives is a lot of this stuff needs to be delegated, but they have the hero complex of nobody can do it as well as I do. So they stay up until two o’clock in the morning and finish things. Right. so, okay. This needs to be delegated. All right. Now, what are the problems with delegating it? Oh, I haven’t trained my people properly to do it, or something like that. We have those mm-hmm <affirmative> those are that those are even more conversations, right? How do you give feedback and how do you get the quality work that you want back so that you can delegate it and free up your time? Right? This all leads to stuff, but then you look at what’s on my list that was on my list yesterday and the day before and a week ago and two weeks ago, is it really a 10? Is it really something that has to get done? I said it had to get done. In fact, I told everybody I have to get this done to, you know, today. And that was last Thursday. Still not done. Obviously it didn’t have to get done. Right. So you start looking at those things, then you start looking at, you know, what’s a placeholder, what, what are you putting on your to-do list? Just cause you don’t wanna forget it again. For me, the add was really cool because everything on my to-do list, I can’t do A, B and C things on a to-do list. Everything screams at me, a plus a plus a plus I have to get done today. Right. So I can only have the A’s. I can only have the tens in front of me, so everything else goes someplace else. But my day is— I absolutely need to send the link to the, to the podcast resources to you right today. That’s my 10, right? Like whatever the tens are for today. First, Eat the Frog! Mark Silverman:  That’s all I look at. Now. Remember I said earlier, it doesn’t mean we’re only gonna do three things, but it means that we’re gonna eat the frogs. Right. As I forgot who said it— Brian Tracy, I think is Brian Tracy Eat the Frog First, right? We’re going to do the things that, the tens that need to get done, then I don’t care if you watch Netflix all day. Right. I, but what usually happens is when you start going and knocking off some of the other things, right. But as long as my tens are done, life moves forward. Jenn DeWall:  I love, you know, if I actually did this, I’m trying to think if I did bored tens, I feel like I would have less anxiety, a greater sense of accomplishment, less stress less. And I know we talked about this word on the pre-call like overwhelm. And yet, you know, I think I still have my own resistance, but I, I really wanna Try. It’s Easier to By Busy than To Choose What To Do With Our Time Mark Silverman:  We all do we all do, it’s easy. It’s so much easier to be busy, than to actually choose what we do with our time and our attention. So much easier to be busy. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. One it’s just like avoidance too. Like I know some calls or difficult conversations. Like those it’s so easy to avoid those and be like, I don’t wanna get into that. And I actually don’t mind conflict, but yet if it’s, you know, I do avoid it to some extent too, if I think, oh my gosh, I’m not sure Mark Silverman:  Who wants to be unpleasant? Who wants to be unpleasant? It’s unpleasant. It’s unpleasant to call someone and say, you know, that, that piece of work that you sent me, what I liked about it was this and this, but this needs to be fixed. Right. It’s unpleasant. So why would you do it? Why would you wanna do it? And it needs to be done, right? Otherwise you are the one fixing it at two o’clock in the morning. Focus on the “Tens” Jenn DeWall:  So when it’s the “tens”, is it like, is there a certain way to structure your day? Like with time blocking or, I mean, even talking about email, attacking that email.. Mark Silverman:  Email, everything I do is a necessity. I, well, every assistant I’ve ever had is like, oh Mark, have you ever tried time blocking? I’m like, all right, I have to train you again. I do not time block. I just do my tens. And if it’s 10 o’clock or 11 o’clock at night and I go to bed and I didn’t do a 10, I get outta bed and I do my 10. So you get done. I just don’t know when. Jenn DeWall:  And then how do you fit in the eights or the fives? Mark Silverman:  Eight and fives. See, that’s the thing, eights and fives. Jenn DeWall:  But what about that’s like adulting, like how, you know, Mark Silverman:  Back to the example of like eight and do not need to be done, give an example of an eight that gimme an example of a five that needs to be, that absolutely has to get done. Jenn DeWall:  Like a bill. Mark Silverman:  No, bill is a 10. A bill is a 10 on the day it’s due. Jenn DeWall:  Okay. Got it. So it shifts based on the time, but there’s really not a lot of things that, you know, if it’s not a 10, it’s just not a 10. Mark Silverman:  Right. It’s just not a 10. And that’s the argument that I get from everybody. But Mark, there’s all these things. And then when you look at it, it’s like, yeah, that doesn’t need to be done. Right. Or Mark, I have to hire a network, a new network engineer. Really? That’s on your list, hire a new en network engineer. Great. What are the steps to hiring a network engineer? Well, actually I have to write up the request to HR. Great. What else do you have to do? Well, they’ll, they’ll write the job description and all that, you know, and, and all the, and they’ll post it and everything. So all you have to do is write the request. Great. Now that’s the 10. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Mark Silverman:  See the difference. But they put higher network engineers and its this big thing. When all it is, is a little email saying, Hey, could you guys write up the request. Jenn DeWall:  I love that that’s a firm take. Well, and it’s, it’s the discipline take, right? The focus takes on what we’re doing, but what would you say to someone that feels like, you know, because we’re used to those dopamine hits or we’re used to feeling, you know, chronically busy and to only focus on tens might tell ourselves that we’re not being as productive. That we’re not as blank. Right? Because we’re giving something up to just focus on the tens. What do you say to that? Mark Silverman:  I’ve never heard anybody who’s ever done. Only tens I’ve never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever heard that they don’t feel productive. They I’ve only ever heard. I finally feel productive because almost all the time I hear, I work all day long. I am busy all day long and I never get anything done. Never feels like I get anywhere. I fight fires all day long. I’m fighting fires all day. I’m like, can we go hunt some arsonists and see what’s causing the fires. Right? That that’s, that’s the shift. But anybody who’s actually implemented the tens have said, holy mackerel, we’ve moved the ball forward on all kinds of things. So yeah, that’s never been a problem. It’s only a problem before anybody tries it. Is Email a “Ten” or a Distraction? Jenn DeWall:  I mean, we, I know this is a topic that we often don’t talk about a lot companies don’t put it in job descriptions. What about email management? Right? Because hypothetically that is full of one and tens, but yet you have to, you know, kind of mine through it to figure out what that looks like. Like any tips for someone that’s struggling with a email, because now we’re saying that for some people it can equate to 30% of their work for a week, just the email management. It’s extremely time intensive or energy exhausting. I’m curious if you have any takes or just have, you’ve seen any solutions work for how people can do that. Because again, you have to have the time to mine through it, to determine what your tens are. Mark Silverman:  Every executive that I have worked with who’s mastered it, has hired an assistant who they trust to do triage on their email. They hire someone else to do the triage on their email and they give the criteria of what comes through to them. So now it’s gotten one level of email management ahead of time. But for me, you know, like I, that’s not, that’s not something I know how to do. What I do know how not to do is make email. My dopamine hit, make email, you know, like organizing my email, like it’s actual work. Like it’s actually an actual 10. So I will in the morning delete, delete, delete, delete, save, delete, save, save, save. So that, by the time I get to my desk, I’m like, okay, these are the only things that really matter today. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Okay. And I, I just had to ask that because I just know that it’s, you know, that’s a big attention pull and it’s also an anxiety producer in a lot of different ways. Oh, like the urgency. And I think when you don’t have any plan for it, it can very easily take all of your attention and make you feel less accomplished just by focusing on that. Mark, what would be any final thoughts or takeaways you might have for our listeners. Confront Your To-Do List By Setting Boundaries Mark Silverman:  This, a lot of things, I found a lot of things on my to-do list and I find a lot of things on most people’s to-do list have to do with worthiness and being all things to all people, not being able to set a boundary, not being able to delegate, not being, you know, not being able to do the thing. I, I was joking about the people skills versus people skills. I thought people skills were being nice to people and everybody likes me and all that kind of stuff. When I realized people skills are actually being able to set boundaries. It’s being able to create strong agreements about things. It’s about giving feedback. It’s about asking for help and asking for what I want. Right. So I now think people skills are a very different thing. So the self-worth piece, if you’re gonna set a boundary, the only way you can set a boundary is if you’re worth it. Right. For me I read a book called Relax Into Wealth by Alan Cohen, which is what got me to become a coach. That’s a whole other story. But he said, what if he said, what if you treated yourself like you treat everybody else. And like, my ex-wife lived in the million dollar house. And I lived in the little apartment. You know, like I took care of everyone else, like, what do you mean? Like, treat myself like everybody else. I’m not even on the list. <Laugh> oh. So, so really working on, you know, you have intrinsic value, you get to be on the list. You were a precious, you know, like we all give to our children. You, you were a child once too, you have a life. You are as worthwhile as anybody else here. That is a revelation to me. And that’s the thing. That’s the first thing to start to work on. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. You matter, Mark, how can people get in touch with you? How to Find Mark J Silverman to Learn More Mark Silverman: They can go to the webpage, that one, the link that I give you for your, for the resources or just MarkJSilverman.com, Mark the letter J Silverman dot com. And everything’s there, my free workshops. I do a, a free workshop every month on this only tens thing. So they can go there. My 90 days out of overwhelm they can go there for that. And my podcast is called Mastering Overwhelm. How to thrive in business, life and relationship. Jenn DeWall:  I love it. Check out. You’ll have to go and add over and check out Mark’s resources, listen to the podcast. Mark. Thank you so much for sharing your story, opening up your heart with vulnerability and just helping us recognize that, you know, I just love your final point of you matter. It’s been a joy to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming Mark Silverman:  On. Thank you for letting me talk about things that are really deeper and more important than just the to-do list and noticing where that, where that actually leads. That was really beautiful. Thank you. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I really enjoyed my conversation with Mark. If you want to get in touch with him, you can go to MarkJSilverman.com. There you can pick up his book. You can get to know more about him, subscribe to his podcast. And of course, if you are looking for your own development, as it relates to prioritization or time management, head to Crestcom.com, we would love to help you develop your leadership skillset. So you can be as productive and accomplished as you want to be. And finally, if you enjoyed this podcast, feel free, give us a rating, let us know what you think or share it with a friend until next time. Thank you so much for listening.   The post How to Confront Your To-Do List to Transform Your Life with Executive Coach and Author, Mark J. Silverman appeared first on Crestcom International.

Meet Dr. Janet Polach, PhD, Author of The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make Jenn DeWall: Hi, everyone. It’s so great to have you here. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down to talk with Janet all about The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make. Let me tell you a little bit more about Janet. Dr. Janet Polach is a global leader in leadership development and coaching. She has coached leaders in the U.S., China, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore, Puerto Rico, Irelands, the Netherlands and Switzerland. She is an international presence. Janet’s also a retired officer from the U.S. Marine Corp., and as a retired Marine officer, Janet knows a thing or two about what it takes to be a great leader. Her no-nonsense but light-hearted approach is what separates her from the boys. And she creates transformational results for even the most struggling leaders. And we’re gonna be talking about her book, and she wrote this realizing that managers are often too busy running their business to pay attention to their employees. She felt compelled to teach organizations how to get clear about what effective leadership really looks like. Her new book, The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make, does just that! Janet has made it her mission to help people find their own voice in a noisy world and lead from within. And so, enjoy our conversation as Janet, and I talk about the seven mistakes that new managers make. Jenn DeWall:  Hello! Hello everyone. We are so excited to be talking about The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make, and I am so excited, Janet, to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining The Leadership Habit podcast. We are thrilled to have you here today. Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Thank you so much, Jenn. It is a delight to be here. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. So we’re gonna go in– and I love that you wrote a book about the seven mistakes that new managers make because I will say admittedly, I mean, I still am, but I made so many mistakes early on in my career. I still make mistakes, but there are so many notable ones. And I feel like I almost wish because I didn’t have a mentor right off. And I just wish that I had the fortitude to probably pick up a book or look at like, what are the things people, the mistakes people make, instead of just assuming that I’m the only one on the planet, that’s probably getting this wrong, you know, which I think sometimes we do, but we’re gonna talk about your book because this is such an important topic, especially with, you know, the world. There are a lot of people moving around, so we’ve got a lot of new transitions happening. But before we dive into that, Janet, let’s go ahead and share with The Leadership Habit audience. Tell us about yourself and how you came to be. Because you’ve got a great story, and I think there are just so many leadership lessons to learn from within that story. Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD: Great. Thank you. So I graduated from one of the schools, the University of Wisconsin and Jenn DeWall: Woohoo! I’m a Badger too! Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Yeah, there we go. I went to Stout, which is on the other side of the state and was trained as an educator, an early childhood elementary ed teacher. I graduated in the middle of a recession. I scratched my head and said, now what do I do? Because jobs were few and far between, public schools were cutting back in terms of teachers, and budgets were very tight. And so I looked around, and I said, now what do I do? I could either get a master’s and then be really unemployable <laugh>, or I could do something else. And so I looked around a piece. It was at a time in the world that peace was breaking out all over. And so I looked at the military, and the Marine Corps recruiters were just really excellent at what they did. They pushed all of my buttons around belonging and a spree and being able to serve my country. And so, I joined the Marine Corps. I became a personnel officer is what it was called, which is H.R. At that time, women were not in combat roles. I knew that going in and my job, you know, was to be able to support our combat roles and ensure that individuals were paid well, they were promoted well. And that formed, I think, a real foundation for me in terms of what leadership is in the Marine Corps and, and the other military services in the United States as well, really form the foundation of what leadership is. They spend hours and hours training on it, teaching on it assessing it. And so, that formed the basis of my understanding. I spent three or four years on active duty, then got off active duty and went to the government to work for a government contractor in an H.R. role. And you know, then the rest was history. It followed me around. I spent time both on active duty and in the reserves over the years, like most military people do. And then, I went into consulting when I moved back to Minnesota. So it has while I got a chance to see a lot of changes for women in the military in those 20 years. I also got to understand what it’s like to be a woman in a primarily male-dominated organization. And I, when we, you and I were talking before Jenn, and I said, you just go for it. You are yourself. You lean into who you are in, no matter what organization you’re in. And it’s served me well. And I am very proud to say that I’m a retired Marine officer. Learning Leadership as an Officer in the Marines Jenn DeWall:  I love that. Well, and I think there is. I’m so curious. I mean, I know we’re gonna get into a few lessons that you learned from your service, but when we do look at the military, whether it’s in the U.S. or any other country, leadership is the backbone of what that looks like. And I’m, you know, a lot of us are seeing that play out right now overseas. Probably the most recognized example is what’s happening between Ukraine and Russia right now of just seeing the importance of having strong leaders. And of course, though our work situations may not be, you know, that combat or life or death, you know, there’s just so many rich examples of the importance of these leadership tools, how we think about approaching people. But I’m curious, like how did you find your strength? Because I would’ve been super intimidated. I know you said you just go for it, but how did you find your strength to have a voice in a place where you were like, we don’t typically have the voices here? Like how did you find the strength to do that? You know, as a woman, I think that that is a very big challenge, and there are still people facing that in different parts throughout the world right now, where they might be the minority, and they’re, you know, it’s a little intimidating. So how do you come up and come through in an environment that might be maybe just not the most accessible or just hasn’t seen the history of working in interactions with women? Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Well, I think, first of all, you find strength, strength in numbers. When I first years ago, when I first arrived at New River Air Station in North Carolina, there were only two women officers on the entire base. And so we got to know each other quickly, and we leaned on each other. Three years later, when I left, there were probably about eight. And so I think that’s really important is to find support from other women. Even if they’re not in your same organization. Find some individuals with whom you can test your ideas out to make sure that you are thinking is really solid. And then I think you find ways to you pick your battles very, very carefully as a woman in a male-dominated organization, you know, there are lots of things that bother us. But you can’t go after all of them. Otherwise, you’re a whiner. So you do it very, very carefully- When I first arrived at New River, for example, I worked, worked in a hanger and there’s two floors and I had to walk down two flights of stairs and across the entire hanger deck to go to the bathroom and you know, it was uncomfortable because everybody would look at me, you know, they knew there was the woman officer and you know, that’s who she is and, and, you know, they could kind of see here’s, here’s my pace of the day. Well then another woman officer arrived in the organization and it made sense for us to say, wait a minute, this is not okay. We need another bathroom up by where we will work. And so I think you find a pace, you find a rhythm in raising your issues and then go for it with all cause. You know, once you’ve decided, here’s what I’m going to fight. Here’s what I’m gonna stand up for. You know, you really can’t back down because you will be successful. The Inspiration For Seven Mistakes New Managers Make Jenn DeWall:  And I love the distinction that you make, that there are going to be more things. And I, you know, we can relate to that as women and, you know, we all have different experiences, you know, I’ve heard different ones, but we have to use our emotional intelligence to determine which ones are right to pursue. Because what you’re not saying is we’ll just give up and accept that you’re saying be strategic and be intentional, which is the way that we can make change. It’s, you know, we have to be very deliberate and intentional, and you’re just showing the example of, you know, understanding our own emotional intelligence. Like what can you do? What’s reasonable. How will people respond? What can we do? What’s the way to even make people listen. So you wrote the book, The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make, I mean right. Probably emotional intelligence. That was absolutely mine, but what inspired you to write your book? Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  So it had been a goal for several years, my colleagues had said, Janet, you need to write a book. Seven Mistakes was a COVID book. It happened during the first year of COVID when things got just a little bit soft for me on the consulting side. And I finally had some capacity to think about it delight. I was delighted to, when I look back into my files, I had half of it written already, which for anybody who’s gonna write a book, I encourage you to look back on your blog posts and your LinkedIn posts and presentations that you’ve made in the past because there’s a lot of content there already to pull from. And that’s what I did. You know that people have asked me about seven mistakes. Boy, I made 102, the first year I was a manager <laugh> well, you know, nobody wants to read a book about the hundred and two mistakes you make as a manager. And so I tried to boil it down into a few critical ones, the reality in business across America. And I do think across the world is that we promote really great individual contributors to managers. They get things done, they raise their hands, they volunteer, they deliver on time or before things are due. And so we’re like, oh voila, this is gonna be a fabulous manager. And so we promote them to manager. We very rarely give them training. The statistic from the conference board is 60% of managers fail in their first two years into the job. And it’s because organizations don’t invest in them. Unlike my experience as a brand new manager, which was in the Marine Corps, I was heavily invested in how to be a Marine officer, most organizations. Don’t I think it’s a couple of reasons. First of all, they don’t know where to start because there are so many managers in an organization. If you build a pyramid, you know, there’s one CEO, there’s three or four other C-suite office leaders, and then it, it balloons from there. And so people say in organizations, how do we prepare all these managers? Well, it’s not that hard, but you gotta do it. I think when we were talking about earlier, Jenn, is you find ways for them to tap into each other. I’m gonna try doing it this way. What do you think? Oh, talk to the guy in accounting. He was just promoted to a manager. So facilitating managers, being able to talk to each other and leverage other’s knowledge and mistakes, I think is another good way to get their development started. If you’re not gonna have a full blown training program for new managers. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Well, and here’s the piece that will love us, that if you’re a new manager, give yourself some grace, especially if you don’t have what you had said, like, you know, those facilitated conversations, Hey, go and connect with this person here. They’d be happy to help. Sometimes in reality, they don’t wanna help you. They’ve got stuff going on. They want you to figure that out so they can deal with their own problems and it can feel incredibly lonely. And maybe you then go into your head of like, am I even getting this right? I’m curious how many, if 60% fail, how many of them end up if is failure the form of like their people leaving or is failure the form of them leaving. I’m so curious, what failure then ends up looking like in action. But if you’re a new leader, give yourself some grace because there are a lot of examples you can likely recall. I can recall of leaders that have gotten promoted where you’re like, I don’t know if you had any experience in training people and maybe that’s our opportunity to give grace up, right. Of people not ever having those tools. So when you, you know, I don’t know if you wanna boil this down, but if you think of like, who needs to read this? Like who is that person that you kind of thought of that inspiration that needs to pick up this book? Why Do You Want to Be a Manager? Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Well, I think anyone who’s aspiring to be a leader in our organizations, many people aspire to be leadership leaders because there is more compensation. Individuals who get promoted to a manager who leads other people generally are on a stronger pay trajectory than those who are not. So I think before you take that on, think about why you wanna be a manager? Then I think a book like The Seven Mistakes will help you understand here’s what managers do. Fundamentally, Jenn, they work through other people. So as a manager, you have to be willing to let go of doing the work and spend more time working through other people, helping them set performance expectations, giving them feedback, asking about what they’re working on and how does that connect with the meaning that they derive from work. And so it’s that fundamental shift from doing the work to working through other people that I think individuals who aspire to be a manager or a, a future leader have to come to grips with for themselves. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. I love that. You talk about that because so many people, yes, they want the, they want the title. They want the, the money that comes with the title. They don’t want the problems that come with managing people. And I think people don’t realize that, that, you know, I’ve, I’ve heard this before from different leaders I’ve worked with like, I don’t wanna be a people therapist. Well, that’s kind of what leadership is, you know, it’s, I don’t wanna say you’re meant to, you know, fix and aid their problems, but you are meant to hold space and work. As you had said, work through people, you will have to deal with the complexities of human emotions and resistance and how we all, you know, might have conflict or differing point of views. Like that’s the nature of people leadership. So the first piece of getting really honest, like, you know, I made the mistake early on in my career of being that person that’s like, I want, you know, the fancy title. I want that recognition. I want the visibility. Right. I was high ego and I want all of that. And I didn’t think about the other side of it. I didn’t think about like, what do I feel prepared for that? Am I going to be able to do this? And so I like that. That’s a starting point of if your curiosity is there, if you’re starting just really coming with, why do you wanna lead people? Because that paycheck will get you so far, but you still have to perform the day to day of people leadership. And so how are you gonna do it? A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. What Mistakes Do Most New Managers Make? Jenn DeWall:  Let’s dive into your book, The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make. So what’s one of the first mistakes that you notice. Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  One of the first mistakes is the first chapter, which is not transitioning from an individual contributor to a manager. It’s to not have that sense that I’m not gonna do everything now, and I’m not gonna have everything done my way. That’s the other challenge I think as new managers is we think, okay, I’m gonna, okay, I’m gonna delegate, but you are gonna have to do it exactly the way I did it because then it will be satisfactory. And of course that’s a trap that new managers run into. I think another one is not having a plan for execution. You know, we often jump into a manager role and just assume the team knows what they’re responsible for what they’re supposed to be doing. And I talk a lot about how do you set the team up for success by describing the team purpose? Why does it take a team to do the work of this group, and why aren’t we just a bunch of individual contributors? And what are we expected to accomplish? So I think that’s a really good one. I talked also about failure to give– Jenn DeWall:  hold on. I wanna go back to like, yeah, let’s, let’s dive into a little bit of, you know, understanding how to set expectations and even just thinking like, I, I really like the pivot point, right? Transitioning from that individual contributor to a leader, because I think that you see new managers that can very quickly go into burnout and overwhelm because they are trying to do it all. And I don’t know about you. I feel like I’m just hearing it more and more right now, but that might also be the deficit of resources. People are having to absorb, you know, the rules and responsibilities of the people that have left, but just watching the new leaders fall into the prove-it system, like, you know, individual contributor. I gotta do it all. I’m curious what your take is on that because I just hear either so many insecurities, right? The insecurities of like, can I do this? Well, I mean, I’ll just do it. If I, if I don’t know how to get someone else to do it. Or the imposter syndrome, like I better do it all, otherwise they’re gonna realize, you know, that they picked the wrong person. I’m curious your takes on that, of what you see when working with your clients. Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  What I’m seeing right now is that everybody, like you said, Jenn is really, really busy that I, I think coming out of COVID, we’re all worried that a recession is just around the corner, So let’s do, do, do, do, do, do do. And we are not pausing either as individual leaders or as a team to kinda say, so what’s most important. What are we really expected to accomplish? What do we have the capacity to accomplish and how are we gonna get it done? I think as a new manager, if you can start with just that. And sadly, I think, you know, that’s about, about being it’s really about how is our team going to work together. And I think so many managers get caught in that trap of what we have so much to do that we can’t take time. I can’t take two hours to say what’s the, the purpose of the team. Who’s going to be responsible for what? And so we just keep going full throttle, and we may not be doing the right work for the team. New Managers Shouldn’t Assume Employees Know The Purpose of Their Work Jenn DeWall:  And so what, what I hear you saying is, you know, when you’re starting out as a leader, maybe some of us are operating on the wrong assumptions. The assumption that the team understands their purpose or how their work connects back to the bigger picture, the team understands what’s expected of them or how they’re supposed to show up in the team. We come in with a lot of assumptions that might actually be wrong. So how do you start that? I mean, you talk about the purpose. So what would be your recommendation for if you’re an emerging leader, even if you’re someone that’s on a team, you can still do this, right. Just because you didn’t do it in the beginning. Doesn’t mean that you’re just a lost cause. How would you recommend starting with purpose or just even starting to establish kind of that team framework? Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Well, I think you set time team aside, you know, this obviously is not a 15-minute conversation, so taking time to do it. I think, and then saying, so why, why do we need a team to do the work that we did? When I was writing my book, my husband was the facility director of a large cathedral church in downtown Minneapolis. And I said Joe, what is the purpose of your, you know, your facility team? And he said, well, to keep the church clean. And then I probed a little bit more deeply. And I said, so for what purpose? And that really got into thinking, and he actually did do a team purpose with his team. And he discovered that yes, keeping this beautiful old church clean was part of the task, keeping it in repair, of course. So that buildings didn’t, you know, windows didn’t leak and you know, maintenance costs go up. But what they decided fundamentally is the purpose of their team was to create a distraction-free environment. So when worshipers came, they were focused on their spirituality and not the stains on the carpet. And you know, it gave again new purpose for the custodians in the building who, you know, spend a lot of time vacuuming and cleaning windows. That their deeper purpose was to create a spiritual relationship for the parishioners. And I think that’s where then you help employees find meaning in the work. Even if the work is mundane, you know, think about somebody who sits on a customer service desk all day and generally receives incoming calls about things that are not right. The app doesn’t work, the package didn’t come. The thing costs more money than they thought it would. How do you help those individuals connect to a broader purpose? It may be a purpose about, you know, getting product that is helping people’s lives into the hands of customers. It may be to make sure that their customer experience is flawless and engaging. And so helping people really connect with why are they coming to work every day? And how does that bring meaning is I think what purpose is all about. The Mistake New Managers Make About Feedback Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. It’s the purpose. And I love that you talked about, you could identify your purposes, I’m here to keep the church clean, or you could look at it as which is, I feel like a more, that’s the action that you do, right. We all know what we do. And I think that’s the trap. That’s the individual contributor. We’re very heads down into the, the task that we need to do, but not really recognizing the significance, the importance of like, why we even created these things. I will even say, as, you know, as a new employee, as a younger employee, there would sometimes be that I would even, because I didn’t have well developed emotional intelligence. I would have like the eye roll moments of like, why am I even doing this redundant thing? You know? And there’s so much low-hanging fruit for emerging leaders by just connecting people to the why. And people see it everywhere, but yet we don’t do it. And so I, you know, someone might listening and like given, oh, that’s so obvious, but are you really doing that? Do they really understand their purpose? Now, I just think that it’s a beautiful example that you gave because, I mean, how much better and just more significant and important would I feel if I really understood that I’m creating a positive impact on a worshiper’s life versus it being, I’m just keeping it clean. You know, it’s, there’s just so much more beauty in that. One of the other pieces that you talk about is feedback and feedback, right? That’s the thing that I feel in some reason in corporate America, even people that think that they have high E.Q. think they receive it well or give it well. And you know what, in actuality, there’s a lot to consider when it comes down to feedback. So what do you see in the form of feedback as a mistake? Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Well, I think the mistake is not doing it and not doing it on a regular basis. So feedback is not this enormous confrontation. It’s really simple and straightforward, and it focuses on the future and not looking back on the past. So great feedback includes what was the behavior? What was the impact of the behavior, which I think we often miss and then what would you like to see next time? That’s a fabulous conversation. It only takes about, you know, it’s a 10-minute conversation, not an hour conversation. I think we think about it as being difficult to do because who wants to talk about the mistakes that they made? I think people often know that, you know, a presentation doesn’t go well because I didn’t spend enough time preparing. Well, I know at the end of the meeting that it didn’t go well. And the last thing I need is my manager saying, Janet, you really goofed. But if that manager was to say, yes, I understand that, that didn’t go so well. Here’s where I saw it not going so well. And how do we get it right next time? Right. And that’s really the value of feedback. I think the, what I talk about in the book is creating an environment where everybody feels comfortable giving feedback to each other and not just the boss, not just at performance review time, but throughout the day in, day out, week in and week out. And that the boss is also aware of getting feedback herself, that she’s open to feedback that she’s out there seeking feedback regularly. We just finished a meeting. Gee, how do you think that went? What could I have done to be more effective in getting them to yes. How could have we gotten to yes sooner? Looking for actual development suggestions about being more effective going forward. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Well and giving yourself permission. I think this is where it’s starting with our own vulnerability and humility. Hey, maybe I didn’t do that well, or maybe I could have tried a different approach. And you know, the first thing that you led with in terms of feedback is identifying the behavior and the impact of the behavior. And, you know, I think new leaders may not understand that they see it and it becomes, or it can feel and sound more personal because they don’t understand that you really have to drill into the behavior, like the behavior of the passive aggressive email or the eye rolls in the meeting and how someone feels then. But, you know, and so I think that’s a really important piece because leaders sometimes, or maybe new leaders, we just look at it as everything’s personal. So if I’m giving you this feedback, then you’re gonna take that personally. But yet by the framework that you just shared, it allows you to depersonalize it. It’s not about you personally attacking them. It’s not about you course correcting it. It’s describing how we need the future state to look, how we want to come together and how we want to show up. I’m curious, how do you give feedback up? Like, because they’re, you know, especially if I’m further removed, I am very reluctant to ever give feedback up. Right? It’s kind of that in my head, like, who am I to give you feedback? You’ve created this success. Like, I’m not gonna be the one or I don’t want you upset with me. <Laugh> because I’m giving you feedback. Right. And the example that comes to mind for me is when I even hear leaders that are like, I’m a people person. And in my head, I watch what they do. And I’m like, you are not a people person. You are not a people person. You are really successful in these things, but you are not a people person! But because of your position and your seniority, I, I don’t feel comfortable telling you that. And so what would be, you know, a take for, or what would be a, how would you approach that situation? New Managers Have to Learn How to Receive Feedback Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Well, Jenn, it’s a good point. And I think giving feedback upward is always a challenge. The first step is to prepare. To figure it out, I encourage people to actually write out their own script. You know? So you’re giving feedback to a manager about being critical during meetings, for example. So again, back to the model, what is this leader doing? What’s the impact? And I sometimes think busy, busy senior leaders don’t pause to think about what is the impact their behavior is having on other people. So if they’re being critical in meetings, people are shutting down and not sharing their solutions that has a business impact. And in this busy environment that we’re working on that leader may not appreciate that that’s what’s really happening. So being able to think about both the behavior and the script, and then offering a suggestion. I work with a lot of executives, Jenn, as I know you do too, as an executive coach and we often do 360 feedback. So we get feedback from many important places. And I have many, many leaders who’ve said, I’ve never heard this, especially the really critical cutting behaviors. You know, they cut people off. They have to be the know it all in the room. And they say, I’ve never heard this. And I will remind them, you never listened. You know, you are, you are so confident in how you approach the world that people have tried to give you this feedback, and you’ve cut them off, and they’ve given up. So often in an executive coaching relationship, we can help them really understand, yes, these behaviors are getting in your way, and they will continue to whether you know about them or not. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. <Laugh>, you know, and you bring up executive coaching. Cause it is funny when you lead with curiosity, because I’m sure you’ve had this where I can think of a client that comes to mind that, you know, was like again, a different client that was like, I’m, I’m totally a relationship person. I get this. And then I was listening to the triggers, and like the trigger is like, if I have to repeat myself if I have to do this, I’m like, you know, like, let’s take it one step further. Like why do you think you have to repeat yourself? Like what maybe went, what didn’t go well in the initial communication or where was the planning maybe not have done. But it’s so interesting that again, like we can be operating– and I think I’m pretty obsessed right now with understanding self-awareness as it relates to emotional intelligence because so many of us think that we are very self-aware but yet <laugh> I think, as you said, we actually just kind of ignore the stuff that we didn’t wanna hear, that didn’t support our worldview instead of being like, could I be that way? So I just love that you brought that up because yeah. You might have heard this feedback before and you just didn’t do anything. I can tell you recurring feedback for me all the time in my life will be Jenn, your passion is fantastic, but it’s also the thing that will create conflict. Right. It creates how I shut down. And so I know that feedback and I can choose whether to leverage it or I can choose, you know, to ignore it. And I think it’s easy to ignore when you fall into the habit and you’re just like, oh, that’s who I am. But really likely the feedback has been there all along. What’s another mistake that new managers make? New Managers Often Undervalue Developing Skills in Their Teams Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Well, not taking time to develop the skills in their teams. We often think that development is supposed to happen in some course that we send people to. And what we know from the research is that that is the least impactful kind of training. You know, I wanna learn Excel skills. So go to an Excel class for a day. And yet, if we are a team that uses Excel a lot, let’s take the time to learn from each other. You know, if somebody is poor in Excel and somebody else is really strong in them, pair them together to work on a project together. So taking time in your team to actually develop skills, teaching each other about what they do and how they do it will make the team stronger because of course, then somebody can go on vacation without the team falling apart. But I think that this is one of the biggest mistakes managers make they don’t realize that their capabilities in their collective team is their responsibility. It’s not HR’s responsibility. It’s not some external training company’s responsibility. It’s really the responsibility of the manager. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. You’re the one that understands the work that needs to get done. And you know, I love that you bring up understanding the strengths of a team because that maybe that comes back down to the purpose, or I guess that’s what I hear that of. Like we all have work to do, but we all have a reason that we’re here, which means that we all have value. But we sometimes forget to actually share the value that others have or the strengths that others have. We just assume it’s implied. Oh, you see this? No, they don’t. Because we’ve got all this stuff going on in our heads of, maybe it’s a competition of feeling like I have to prove it. I know I worked in a culture where you constantly felt like you had to make sure you looked better than the next person. And so then it’s hard to talk about strengths because you wanna just pretend that you can own it all. <Laugh>. But I, I like that differentiation of understanding that like how you can cross-train people? How can you make sure you’re actually assessing that? Because I think again, a lot of leaders assume that people have strengths that they may or may not have. And it’s another faulty assumption. Now we have time for one more mistake before we have to wrap the podcast. What’s a final mistake that new managers might make? The Mistake Managers Make by Sticking to the Status Quo Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Well, let’s talk number six, which is sticking the status quo. The chapter is full of ideas for driving innovation in your team. You know, I think sometimes again, we, we think we’re so busy. We don’t, again, pause to say, is there a process that could be improved and should we take some time to do it? So I offer 6, 8, 10 different strategies for ways to do problem-solving right within your team. Some of these techniques take, you know, 15 minutes and, and it gets us out of the just brainstorming. What would you like to thi have things be done differently and listing them all on the board? You know, that, that doesn’t get us beyond our current thinking. And so taking time to collectively get the group together and say, what might be we improve? What might we try to take on now? How do we make things a little bit more productive? And then working with each other to, to define what that is, and then drive the improvement. Dr. Janet’s Tip for Innovative Problem-Solving Jenn DeWall:  So you had shared that you have a few different tips. I wanna hear one sneak peek. I mean, you have to get the book if you wanna get all Janet’s tick, but what Janet’s tips, but what is like one tip that you would have for how we look at problem-solving and innovation? What would you like? What’s one tip you have for a new leader. Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Jenn, I’m so glad you asked, because I wanna share my most favorite, which is called, make it worse. So you have a topic about, you know, maybe we’re going to try to shorten call times. How do we make it worse? Well, we put people on hold. We don’t have enough people on the shift, we don’t train our people. And so you, everybody goes down this list and creates, how could we make this problem worse? I love this technique because everybody has a lot of fun with it. And you’re, you are smiling as I say to you because you, so then you list all these, make it worse. And then you pause and you turn it around and you say for each one of these, how would we make it better? How would each one of these, how would we staff adequately? How would we train adequately? Again, you don’t have to do all of the, make it better things, but pick the two or three ideas that are most promising. Imagine what happens to the team when they turn that around. I worked with a group in Singapore actually that use this technique and they found a million dollar savings from their technique and they implemented them. So again, the, the technique takes 30 minutes. The implementation probably takes a little bit longer than that, but it really gets those unusual unvoiced ideas out on the table. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. I’ve never heard that idea before. I’ve never heard that. That is how can you make it worse? And yeah, you said it it’s like that it is inviting everyone to the table because we don’t have to be, you know, concerned about making, you know, having the right solution or having the right words. We just get to say like, how could we make that worse? I love how inclusive that brainstorming is and just, yeah, fun. Right? Like, Hey, there’s actually more than what we realized. That’s so great for gathering ideas and for building innovation. I love that idea, Janet. I’ve never heard it. And then yeah, coming back down to like now what do we wanna focus on? Because that’s the important piece. You don’t do them all. You cannot do them all. You do not do them all, but like you do then turn around and say, which ones are probably going to be the most important, Janet. I, yes. How can you make it worse to make it better? I love that as a closing tip! Janet, how, what would be, you know, I’m gonna ask two questions, stacking, which I know is against coaching, but what would be any final tips or, and what’s the last thing you would want to say to the audience and then go ahead and tell us how they can get in touch with you. Where to Find More From Dr. Janet L. Polach Dr. Janet L. Polach, PhD:  Right. Well, I think for, for new managers is start studying management. You don’t have to take a graduate class. You don’t have to get in an MBA program, but find a few Ted talks find a couple of good podcasts like this one and listen to them regularly to tip, pick up tips and techniques. Of course you can buy my book. The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make. It is available on inthelead.co— in the lead dot c o. And if you go to my website, you can download the first chapter for free. I’d love to have a conversation with any of you about putting together a learning group. How do we learn the basic techniques of being a great manager? I think the bottom line Jenn is just get started. Know that once you’re promoted to manager, you don’t know everything. But there are ways to learn and these skills can be developed. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. I love that. You just have to want it. You can’t just talk about it. You have to be about it. Janet. Thank you so much for joining The Leadership Habit. Everyone go ahead, go into in the lead dot co. I believe it was InTheLead.co that’s where you can get The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make. Janet, thank you so much for sharing your time, your passion and your expertise with our audience. We are very grateful to have you on the show. Thank you so much, Janet. Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I love the conversation with Dr. Janet. If you want to get her new book, The Seven Mistakes New Managers Make, you can head on over to inthelead.co. There, you can find out more information about Janet and connect with her. And of course, if you like this episode, or maybe, you know, a friend that’s starting their role as a new leader, send this to them. And of course, if you like it, leave us a review on your favorite podcast, streaming service and Hey— at Crestcom, this is what we do. We help to develop leaders too. We would love to have a conversation with you. We have a one-year-long leadership development program to make sure that you have the tools that you need to be effective today. So please go to Crestcom.com. We would love to have a conversation with you as well. Hey, and thanks so much for listening. I hope you have a great day. Just remember you’re six feet above the ground. You’ve got choices. Choose to lead, choose to create a positive impact and choose to create some good in the world. Bye, everyone!   The post Mistakes New Managers Make with Author and Coach, Dr. Janet Polach, PhD appeared first on Crestcom International.

Learn to Lead with Heart and Empathy with Roberto Giannicola, Author of You’ve Got Algorithm, But Can You Dance? Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Roberto Giannicola. Drawing on his experience as a software developer and project manager and his own journey of self-development, Roberto Giannicola coaches leaders from new managers to C-suite executives at fortune 500 companies and facilitates leadership growth. Underpinning his work is his belief that living up to one’s potential as an authentic leader requires seamless integration of analytical skills and emotional intelligence. He is the author of You’ve Got Algorithm, But Can You Dance? Learn How to Lead with Heart and Empathy, and today, Roberto and I will be talking about how to be an empathetic communicator. Enjoy. Full Transcript Below Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone. I am so excited to have Roberto Giannicola with us, which don’t you just love that name? It’s so fun to say! Roberto, thank you so much for joining us on The Leadership Habit. It is so great to have you on this. Beautiful. What, what morning are we at? Even though it’s not gonna be published right away, we’re at Wednesday today, post-Memorial day. How are you doing today, Roberto? And thank you so much for coming. Roberto Giannicola:  Doing great. Thank you, Jenn. Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here. Meet Roberto Giannicola—Coach, Facilitator, Speaker, Author Jenn DeWall:  So Roberto, we’re gonna be talking about how to be an empathetic communicator, but before we jump in, cause I know that your story led you to write your newest book, which talks about how we can really leverage the power of empathy, which we know we need right now with the future of work with the state of the world. We need to show up in a different way, but tell us how, tell us who you are and how you came to be. Roberto Giannicola:  Sure. Sure. So I always tell my people I’m just for my accent, my name you can tell I’m Italian, right? <Laugh> from the south of Italy, I grew up in Switzerland and then I came to the United States. About 30 years ago, I came here to for six months to learn English. And I never left and loved the San Francisco bay area. And that’s where I still am. So it’s such a wonderful place. You know, I come from a background of finance and technology. I worked in finance when I was in Switzerland. And then when I came here, I moved, it was right before the dot com boom, and I moved into technology and I was a programmer for almost 15, 17 years. I went from programming, working with a lot of financial institution and developing software application, project management, all that tech work. And did that for, for quite a while because I just loved it. I loved having to develop applications that would make people’s lives better to facilitate something that would be much easier to do from using my programs. And here is a button for you to click on that makes things much faster. So every time there was something complex, every time that I had to resolve something that is, was challenging and convoluted, I loved going into that analytical mind because this was just challenging and it was stimulating for me and just enjoyed it so much. And I did that for a while. After about 15 years, I started to think, you know what? I, I’m stuck behind this screen all day long. I love what I do and it’s still here and I still love it, but I need, I wanted to move into something different and I’m moved into the classroom. I was showing people how to use the applications, training them, how to to to actually implement them and love being in the classroom. And that led me to actually start working with Dale Carnegie training, where I was for a couple of years and becoming a facilitator, went through their whole training program and leading me to working with people much more, because Dale Carnegie is about facilitating leadership and presentations, communication and so on, right. Such a wonderful program. And from there loving this so much and also going through my self-exploration and the difficulties that I had for myself that I had to overcome as a behavioral, as emotional intelligence and everything that had to do with people skills. I realized that this is something that I can help other people with. And I became a coach and, and now I’m an executive coach and I have my own business and working with a lot of people who have gone through somehow the same path that I have working in technology and moving into leadership, moving into working with more people and how I realized how my story and what I had to go through. And the changes and challenges that I had to face are very often the same things that I encounter with people in that same field in finance tech or the, the technology in high tech and biotech, people who have the technical mindset that have a hard time moving from being those brilliant people, knowing how to do everything like I did in front of that screen. But now moving to people systems no more the computer systems. Now it’s people systems that Finding the Bugs in the Human System Jenn DeWall:  That’s a challenging thing, right? They change. There are a lot more bugs probably in the human system, to be sure! Roberto Giannicola:  <Laugh> yes! Jenn DeWall:  In the most lovely way because we’re all perfectly imperfect. But how did you get people to, I guess, what, or what type of challenges did you notice in your experience that when people were trying to shift out of that analytical mindset into more of that people systems place, what did you notice? Roberto Giannicola:  You know, it was interesting because I still encounter them right now, right? So there is that mindset of I can do everything, and they’re very brilliant. They’re intelligent. They can do everything when it comes to developing an application or designing a new bridge or architecture and whatever it is cause the mind works really well. It’s logical, it’s one piece then the next, and there’s a flow diagram that they can build to move into resolving it. And so what I’ve realized, and even for myself, is that the difficulties that they have often is getting stuck into that mindset of everything is logical, which is fine, which is great. But how do you apply that? How do you get out of that? What I call the hero loop of always being the person, resolving issues and knowing how to do everything when it comes to difficulties and bugs and problems, but now moving into being a manager, leading people and facing everything and people in social context somehow.So how do you stop micromanaging? How do you not use a commanding voice when you tell people what to do? How do you coach them? How can you be giving feedback in a way that supports them rather than ver being very direct? There’s the delegation process. I have so much gone on. If I stay in that hero, which I’m gonna explain in a moment, I get stuck in all this, the things that I need to do in versus delegating and encouraging people to take the task and how I can empower them to feel more confident about it. But how can you do that if you’re not confident yourself? Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Roberto Giannicola: So there was that whole process. I had to go through myself, reminding myself of all my awkward moments in social context and how I had to overcome them. And now I’m seeing these people that I’m working with, they’re just facing the same issues. Yeah. And they’re simple to overcome by just taking, taking a few steps to see what holds you back first, what are your own barriers and then applying a new person or new you in a social context. Writing About How to Lead with Heart and Empathy Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. Well, and I love that giving, you know, I know we’re gonna talk about your newest book because I want to dive into the hero loop because that is something that so many people I think, you know, find themselves in, whether you’re an executive leader that’s been in the business or someone that’s new wanting to, you know, prove yourself. But you wrote your book, You’ve Got Algorithm, But Can You Dance? Learn How to Lead with Heart and Empathy. What brought you to write that book? Is it kind of those experiences of seeing the challenges or is there anything that I may be missing about what brought you to that book, that title? How did you, how did that come to be? Roberto Giannicola:  Yeah, it’s so during the pandemic, I was starting to look around, I had more time to think too, and looking at and paying attention to what our customers and clients I work with are always bringing to the, to the coaching engagement that I’m working with. That I’m, that I am starting with them. And often it is related to points that, like I just mentioned, where they are feeling and finding themselves in difficulty, moving from being those brilliant tech experts leaders. So not, not even leaders, but really becoming leaders and managing people and having to do that transition to let go of the identity that they have built in the technology, in being able to overcome all those issues and developing incredible incredible software or incredible projects, but now having to move into leading people and managing people. So what I often realize, and that’s why I call it, the hero loop is that people often were stuck into that loop of there is a problem. I am so good at it. I can resolve it. And because I resolved it, I am a hero and there’s a cycle that just keeps repeating there. And they pull themselves into that cycle because that’s their identity because they love being the problem solver because they love being the person who can overcome challenges. This is what they have been. But if you want to start moving into leadership, you need to move to the balcony and you need to start moving into a more creative stance. Which is I’m not gonna ha be able to resolve of these problems all the time. I’m not gonna be able to be in that the only person solve person who needs that people need to come to, to get advice or to resolve anything that is going on. They, he needs to, or she needs to manage and empower other people to do that for him or her. So it’s just changing that mindset and being more in a creative stance so that they can develop themselves to become those managers, but also develop other people to be more autonomous and empowered, to do things on their own. The Hero Loop Jenn DeWall:  My gosh, let’s if it’s okay with you, I wanna talk a little bit, you said the word identity and it keeps just coming up to me as you’re, as you’re talking about this, because I think some of the challenges in, and I know that you’d likely address that as it relates to the hero loop, but identity, I think people don’t realize that we have this identity that’s evolved. That indicates who we are. It’s how we see ourselves. I know for myself, I’m very success oriented. That’s a huge part of my identity. And so when things don’t go awry or people don’t like me or some, you know, I get a negative feedback that hurts like that cuts because I, I have that as an identity, but I love the shift in identity. I love the shift that you’re proposing is, and just reminding people, because we forget, we forget that we can relearn and rethink and see yourselves in a different way. But what are some of the important lessons that you have, or that you wrote about in that book for the average leader or for the leader that they need to hear? Roberto Giannicola:  Yeah. So what, some of the points that I really recognize are how people often try to move into that leadership by staying who they are by remaining the person that they have been for so many years. And when they are then exposed to in a, in a meeting trying to influence people to maybe adopt their idea or vision, they don’t know how to express themselves. They don’t know how to show them how important that is. And what happens often is because they are finding themselves in difficulty, understanding human behavior, understanding how people think and how to encourage them. They have their own ways of understanding that they know how to do it for themselves. And that’s always worked well when you are an individual, but now when it comes to actually encouraging others to do it, it’s a little more difficult. And what often people tell me is Roberto, this is complex. And I remember we actually had a conversation with somebody just a few weeks ago. We said, Roberto, this, this is complex. People are not easy. They are just so everybody’s different. They are, you know, they have different opinions. They have different moods and you need to adjust all the time. It it’s too much. And so I asked them, tell me, how do you do your work? And this person was a software developer. And I asked, how do you develop whatever application that you, you have done in the last, in the last project that you’ve been working on? And he says, well, I, you know, need to do the analysis. I need to understand exactly who’s gonna use it. What the, what’s the purpose, how they’re gonna go through that. He says, you’ve been through that. You know what it is like I said, yeah, I know. Empathy is Understanding Your End-User Roberto Giannicola:  So you had to understand the users. You had to understand how they’re gonna use it. Where are they gonna click? When some bugs might come up, what maybe type of experiences they’re gonna have, or you try to avoid them to have, you have to analyze and understand everything so that when they are using the application, everything is smooth for them. And maybe some things you don’t anticipate and they come up, but then you come in and fix them and you make it better. And so you keep changing. So you are in a state of, before you even create the application, you try to understand what they’re gonna use it for. What’s the intent, how they’re gonna, and what’s the results they’re gonna, what’s the experience during the usage. And what’s the results afterwards. And I said, you love that, don’t you? And he goes, yeah, of course, this is great. This is what I love. I said, I know that’s what I used to do as well. Now you’re gonna use that same mindset, but it’s not more about system and software. It’s about people. So before you go into the conversation, you’re gonna have to understand who’s coming. What type of personalities do they have? What’s their age, their gender, what’s the culture? Are they stressed? Are they knowledgeable? Not so much? What is their experience? What do you think they need from you to be able to feel more confident? How can you empower that? What’s the voice you’re gonna use? What’s the official expression that you’re gonna have to pay attention to. What’s your intent? Even before you go into the conversation, are you, do you have biases? Are you stressed today? Are you angry? Do you like him? Do you not all that affects the conversation. All that affects how the person is going to respond to you and how you can maybe influence them to do something else. I said, it’s just the same as your software. As complex and interesting and fascinating as the software and application that you build, or the bridges that people build, or the architect architecture project that they put together. If you can use that same mindset of how you enjoy so much overcoming those challenges and getting into that technical, analytical mind with your projects, use that the same way with the people you work with, that you interact with and see how much more fun that can be when you go into, before you even go into interaction with whatever you want to do with them. And so in my book, I try to talk about all these different aspects and Jenn putting myself into the stories because I was, I was a mess myself. I tell you I had awkward moments all the time. I was the sweaty guy in the conference room who felt awkward, who was getting defensive when people were asking me questions and didn’t know how to address him. I tell you for every client who comes to me with a problem, or with a, with an issue or an awkward O awkward moment that they want to talk about, I’m like, yep, I’ve been there, done that. I was that, that sweaty guy. I was that the one who, who felt really awkward every time somebody was asking me questions. It’s and it’s because I understood the technical side. I was great in my project, but when it came to people, I was, I was a mess. So Remember Your Own Awkward Moments to Lead with Heart and Empathy Jenn DeWall:  I love that<laugh>, I’m laughing. I’m laughing because I have, you know, you talk about the awkwardness. People think you have it, like everyone has it figured out, right. That someone hasn’t had a beginning where you had to relearn and do those things. And I laughed because the sweaty like comment, I remember my first time going into, you know, early in my career, going into an executive’s office and having to present a ton of data to them about-I don’t know- it was a strategic initiative. I don’t even remember what it was, but I remember that I was so incredibly nervous, which people might be surprised. Yeah. I was absolutely incredibly nervous that I just started sweating profusely and it was mortifying. Right. Cause you know, it’s not like you’re trying to sweat in someone’s office. I’m not at the gym. And I ended up getting an award from her as like an endearing thing. It was like her kind of playing like it’s okay that you showed up like that. That was Never Let, ‘Em See You Sweat. And it will always stand with me for the rest of my life of like that moment when I just showed up to an executive’s office, sweating profusely out of nerves. <Laugh> Roberto Giannicola:  Those moments, Jenn, that makes you if you are willing. And if you want to look into it, it’s those moments that make you think there must be a better way. There must, it must be easier. There’s something going on within me that I need to change. And to me, every time I had those moments afterwards, I was reflecting on it and thinking, because my, my logical mind was like, there must be a logical way out of this. My, I had to understand what is going on within me that put me in such positions that made me feel nervous that made me sweat or defense, make me feel defensive. And so I would go to the bookstores and walk into a self-help aisles and read every book possible to understand what is it that’s going on and what do I need to change? And because of my technical mind and trying to always overcome challenges in the work I had that mindset of, I loved analyzing. I loved trying to find reasons and understanding human behavior, understanding human contexts, how we are and how we react and what, what makes us react in certain ways. Jenn DeWall:  Sorry to interrupt you. I’m so sorry. Like, because I think that there’s so much that’s said about like our self-awareness that we know it’s foundational, but yet it’s the biggest challenge, I think, for a lot of people. So I’m curious, what are your pro tips on even starting the journey of self-awareness because, and I know that you’ll you like you touch on that in your book. Like how do you even get someone to do that? Because I think oftentimes we assume that we know, but yet we don’t go one step further with that curiosity and that line of questioning. Be More Curious to Lead with Heart and Empathy Roberto Giannicola: Absolutely. And curiosity is the word that you use there is, is exactly what it is to me. I was curious just the same way. I was curious in how to overcome technical challenges. I was curious in what was happening with me and I’m thinking that must be a better way. It must be easier. Why do I feel awkward? Why is this happening? And I see that in people as well, right? And if you go with curiosity and think there must be a more fluid way to discuss, to have conversations and more free way of feeling for myself when I am in those conversations, what is going on. And often what we do is, you know, these people are the way they are and that irritates me. And that’s why I feel awkward. This person is very intimidating and that’s why I don’t feel right. My manager is you know, it’s a big shot. I’m gonna have a presentation with the CEO today. And it’s, it’s not about what’s around you. It starts with what’s inside you. And that’s what I had to realize first, it’s my own built up fears, unfounded fears, unfounded self-doubts, anything that was happening within me, that made me feel awkward. And that made me feel challenged every time I was in those conversations. So I had to start looking into the mirror and that’s what I often tell people at certain points is like, Hey, you know what, Jenn, you know, coach too, you, you know, that sometimes starts asking those questions and help people realize this is, oh, this is nothing outside. This is inside. I know it’s me. And for instance, I have a way of using that with this, this brilliant minds, because that’s how, what works for them. I ask them to create a flow diagram. And what I do is something as simple as, yes/no questions. You’ve heard of the one maybe that people talk about or you’ve seen on the web. It’s a simple one. Do you have a problem in life? And yes/no. Yes. I have a problem. Can you resolve it? Yes. Then don’t worry. I have a problem life. Yes. I have a problem. Do you, can you resolve it? No. Then don’t worry. You have a problem in life. No, I don’t. Then don’t worry. So I give them an example like this, and then I help them to elaborate a diagram to understand what is happening with them. So they have a fear of talking to the CEO. Where is that fear coming from? Is this something you can control? Yes/No. If you can control it, what is it that you want to do? Or I can do a, or B or C. I love that. So I move them into creating and I’m like, take pen and paper, write down what is, what is going on right now? What is it that you can do? What is it that you cannot ask? Yes, no questions. And I’ve watched them design that sometimes with me, or sometimes I send ’em off and I say, okay, do that. And they come back with these create creative diagrams that helps them move out of their problem and, or their awkwardness or whatever it is. It’s, it’s very simple. And yet, you know, it’s called cognitive restructuring, right? It’s how to, and to change the way you think by being logical and really starting to think about what is going on. And these guys are so brilliant and they know how to do that for the projects. It’s an easy move into, okay. Now use that for your, for yourself and see how you can overcome the issues that you have. And so some people gen tell me, yes, but this is simple for tech stuff. You know, tech is just ones and zeros. It’s yes. And nos. And it’s, it works that way. <Laugh> but for people people’s just too complex. How can we do that with them and understanding everybody? I’m like, it’s the same. When you think about your next meeting, if you are in a mindset of, or have biases around, I don’t like this person, guess how you’re gonna show up. You, they’re already gonna sense that and whatever words you’re gonna use, they’re not gonna try convince them. They’re not gonna help them move into something that you want. If you are in a place of stress, because that’s how you’re gonna show up. It’s just, you know, so it’s all these points of, if you don’t pay attention to yourself in your state of mind, no matter what you’re gonna do or say in that next meeting, it’s gonna be affected by your emotions. And if you don’t understand that and overcome that and pay attention to at least neutralize them and put yourself in a position of calm of more welcoming and accepting of the other person and understanding of the person and moving into empathy, to see their side, it’s always gonna be about you. And if everything is about you, you are in that hero loop, you are in that self loop that doesn’t let you open up to other people and create influence and, and make changes to what you want to change. Jenn DeWall: I love that you gave a different approach to developing self-awareness. I have not ever heard of, you know, a diagram to be able to even get people thinking about that cognitive restructuring and how they want to approach it. And I like that again, you’re offering a different tool for how people can develop that because self-awareness is hard. It doesn’t always feel good to, you know, I think that shame right can come with it, but it really ultimately comes it up to us. Being curious about how we show up. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Learn to be an Empathetic Communicator Jenn DeWall:  Let’s dive into, and I know we touched on self-awareness already, but how do you become, like, how do you change the way that you show up? So you can be an empathetic communicator. Yeah. How do you, where do you start with that? Roberto Giannicola:  That’s a great point. And you know, what’s interesting with these people that I work with and I, when whenever they work on a project that they want to develop or resolve or the bugs that they have. These people are very I would say they’re very kind, they’re very empathic in the technical side. For example, then I did that myself, right? That when I was in technology, we love helping people resolve problems. We have that desire to help them. We have a desire to understand their process so that we can improve them. We have enthusiasm and passion in how we want to make a process much easier for, for them. We use that and, and follow that logical flow diagram somehow to understand facts and problems so that we can make it easier. As a programmer, when I used to do that work, or even anybody, an architect before they go into a project, they walk into somebody else’s shoes. You want to build a bridge, okay, I’m gonna walk around here, but why is this bridge needed here? And maybe they have to understand that people take too long to go around the river or the lake. The software I used to work on and follow people or users in their process, current process and understand their side of the world so that I can then make it better for them, for these people. Before they build a project, they do a whole lot of analysis and put themselves in their shoes, in the user’s shoes so that they understand them and then make it better. Well, here again, we can use that logical work, that project or technical mind work that we do and now move into being more empathic in our conversations. Know Your Own Feelings First Roberto Giannicola:  So before I go into that conversation, I understand myself. Now I pay attention to myself and where I am. Now, I’m gonna want to understand the other person as well. Who are they? What is going on in their lives? How much work do they have? Can I delegate something to them? And if I do, what questions do I need to ask to make sure that they’re okay with that? Are they ready for the new task? Do they have too much going on? When I give them feedback, something didn’t work. They didn’t do it well, but I wanna give them some constructive feedback. I wanna build them up to support them so that they can become better. I need to understand their side. What is happening with you? Sure. The problem, the project failed. You delivered something late, but before I even know that, what’s your story? Why was it late? And then you might say, Hey, I had so much going on. My daughter was sick last last week. There’s something happening there last night. Oh, okay. Now I see your side. It’s not just more about the work. Now. I understand you and you go into a conversation with more empathy. You want into a conversation with an understanding of the other person and try to see and feel what that feels like, what it is like for them. When you do, when you understand and feel how the other person is feeling and what is happening with them, you change your voice. You change the way you’re addressing it and you are making them feel seen valued. And when a person feels seen and valued, Jenn, what did they do? They build creative, incredible trust with you that just open up to you. That’s when you have that rapport, that relationship, that trust and these people, when you have built that trust, these people will open up to you and help you and work with you for whatever challenges that you have. Remember We’re All Human Jenn DeWall: Oh gosh, right? Like this is where people need to rewrite their human systems thinking. I, because I think about when my journey, right? I, you know, I started getting into leadership when I was 16. And then by the time that I graduated college and I still followed that passion, I just thought I was a nerd. And I got into the workplace. I was like, oh, leadership is just that thing that they teach children to pretend that the world is a really great, happy place. <Laugh> I honestly thought that. I really, because I didn’t have the world deal to know that they were training companies or anything like that. I honestly looked around and I watched the interactions. And I’m like, what in the heck? But I’m so happy, Roberto, that you just said this in 2022. Think about it. The magic that happens when you just show up and see a human being and tell them that you love and support and value them. Which is different than the way that I walked into, you know, my first job in corporate America, it was very much you’re kind of disposable. I mean, I can’t say that everyone was that way, but observing the higher level communications and even criticisms, they didn’t care necessarily about the individual. Like, I mean, they did. And they, like, when my dad had a life altering stroke, they, you know, were like, go and take time off. And that’s great. And so if they were those big life events, they were absolutely understanding. But not the day to day of like, we’re so happy you’re here. What else is going on? And I think that’s, you know, that old leadership that I cannot wait to run away from. I’m just so happy that you’re saying the Roberto. So what are the key benefits? I mean, you know, like trust obviously, like what are the key benefits when we show up with heart and empathy towards people, because I love that way of being curious and what else is going on? How can I understand and support you or maybe modify or re delegate? What are the benefits to an organization if we just show up in that way, because I know that someone’s saying, show me the money. Why should I care? We’ve got work to do Roberto Giannicola:  Yes. And that’s often what it is, right? We are driven by the projects and deadlines and the money at the end of the project and the results. And we forget everything in between. We forget how we interact with people and the importance that people play into the workplace. And, and in you achieving those, those goals. We, you know, often we are, we are stuck in that. We’re stuck into trying to move people to do things in in a certain way. And especially when we come to from a, from a technical area where we have to work on projects and be logical and we move into specific points. This needs to happen before that. And so on. We and I work with people who often tell me, well, I gotta tell ’em what to do. We have a deadline, we have the project and this needs to happen. And if I don’t tell them, if I’m not there to check, if I’m not there to support them in more telling than actually supporting them and encouraging them, then things are not gonna happen. And they don’t take the time to think, well, did you pay attention to the other person and what’s going on with them to maybe try to see if they can actually take care of everything, you know, how much you’re missing on, if you tell them so much, right? We often miss on what they can actually bring to the plate because we force them and funnel them into a specific area of working and way of working. Instead of if you move into empathy and understand where they come from and what is going on with them, you can help them bring up new ideas that maybe are much better than the ones that you had in your head. Trust Your Employees to Unleash Creativity Roberto Giannicola:  And not only that, but you encourage them to be more creative, which means they will bring even better things to the project, to the organization, to the team and so on. And when people are, have seen that and realize that it completely changes the way they work. You know, Jenn, one of the questions that I often ask my my new clients is tell me of someone or manager that you work with, that you really like. And I remember there was this guy, Brian, who says oh, easy! My boss! I don’t remember his name, but let’s say John, my boss, John, he is great. I’m like, okay, why is he great? Look, he says every time I go to a meeting with him, I need to be prepared with a lot of answers because all he does is ask me questions. And I’m like, why do you think he does that? He says, I don’t know, but he just wants to know how I do something. And why, why do you say that he’s a great boss and what, what does that make you feel, you know, and he says well, I feel like he is really rely on me on how to do the work. He trusts my idea and he helps me being more creative. And I said, that’s great. And this is why often we forget what we forget to do as a boss, we tell people what to do instead of asking them questions, to understand where they come from, what are their ideas, what they can bring to the project. And when you do that, it makes people love working with you. They feel valued. They feel like they can be autonomous. And it just changes the entire dynamic with people. And they become much more enthusiastic about being there and doing their work because they feel valued. And so it’s just about changing that language that they need to understand. Micromanagers Can’t Lead with Heart and Empathy Jenn DeWall: Can we please address the role? Because I think that this comes down to feeling valued and you talked about it at the top of the show. Micromanagers. I can’t handle it. I absolutely am now to a point. Roberto Giannicola:  Nobody can! Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> I, I, yeah, I can’t handle it. I think earlier on I was better at that, because then you kind of wanted that additional support to navigate it. And then now, today, I just feel like it’s the equivalent of being treated like a child. Like, I just, that’s how it feels to me not to say that it feels for everyone, but I know that if we’re leading, you know, if I’m looking at that individual that I have in mind, and if I show up with empathy to them, I can see that they’re stuck in what you call the hero’s loop. Or maybe it’s not that. But what is your advice for someone? Because if you are a micromanager, God bless you. I know that you’re just trying to get stuff done, but you may not be doing it in the way that’s creating connection, trust. So on and so forth. What would be your advice to that micromanager? Roberto Giannicola:  Yeah. If what if you’re a micromanager, you make it about yourself. You make it about your fear of not achieving something. You make it about not trying to understand the other side of the other person and the other side of the work you are making it about everything that is related to the project, the money, the achievements that you want to create versus building the person and really trusting the person and you creating a gap between you and this person and the people that you work with by not really helping them or connecting with them so that you can help them realize how valuable they are. And especially you’re missing out on really trying to understand who they are and what they can bring to the project, what they can bring to the work that you do. And you kind of stuck in that hero loop. Often people are, I ask them, well, why don’t you delegate <laugh> and I’ve see, I heard that so many times. Why don’t you delegate that? And why don’t you let go of that one? And they say, with Roberto, if I do all this, then what am I here for? What? What’s my work? I mean, I had nothing else to do. Are they gonna get rid of me? And I’m like, no, you’re not. They’re not gonna get rid of you. So I work with them to try to help them understand what is it that motivates you? What is it that you want to do? What is the end goal for you? Once you have built up these people to be able to be more autonomous and do their work on their own, and you stop micromanaging them, what are you gonna do for yourself? And that’s when they start thinking about, well, you know, yeah. I Could strategize more for different projects for higher level results, for new ideas that we can create,  envisioning what the other projects we could work on. But, and I say, so if you continue micromanaging, you continue being stuck in the weeds somehow, how can you do that? What can you let go? And how can you empower these people so that then you can move away nor that everything is working well and be on the balcony so that you can still be with them and encourage them and support them, but then stand on the side, create something even more interesting for the company and the organization where you’re gonna pick them up again and involve them. It’s, it’s a different work. It’s a different, you gotta move away from the weeds. I call being, moving away from being always in the involved in everything. Now you’re a manager, you gotta move up to the balcony and doing a different type of work. Yeah. And so that transition is difficult. What Impacts Our Ability to Lead with Heart and Empathy? Jenn DeWall: Yeah. To be able to see the forest from the trees. I mean, it comes back to that identity question. Yeah. Yeah. But I know that we only have so much time left, but I wanna talk about a few of the different things that you had addressed, which is like, how do you present yourself as an empathetic communicator? What, and I know that there were a few different things that you touched on that can impact that. What are the things that can impact? And this is just coming back to the basics, how you’re showing up. So what are the things that can impact your ability to show up as an empathetic communicator? Roberto Giannicola:  Yeah. Great point. You know, it’s interesting because when I was writing the book, I thought, how do I, how did I become more empathic? Because 20, 30 years ago, I don’t think I was as empathic as I am now. So I had to look back into my stories somehow to understand what has moved me to become more empathic. And I realized there’s different categories. And some of them are meditation and being in silence to read, explore myself and understand what’s going on within me so that I can then see others as well. Often the mirror to what other people are experiencing is right here within you. So meditation and silence helped me a lot with that. Travel experiences- going outside of my little world and seeing how other people live and what they do, putting yourself in their shoes somehow, and being okay with what you sense and what you see. It can be uncomfortable. It’s okay. Sit with it, be uncomfortable. This is what’s going on. I volunteered a lot and went out into, I went to Africa. I went to China with Alliance for Smiles to do those surgeries for kids with cleft palette and lip surgeries. So spending time there and seeing what was happening with these people and being okay with that and crying sometimes because it was just challenging. All these moments and emotional pains that you might go through in your life due to relationships and losses. And so on, all these moments kind of crack you, they open up something and make you realize what is really what is like to be in pain and understand other people. And seeing the other side, once you create that crack, I think it stays there. You don’t become callous. You become more open, more, real, more authentic. And as you realize that for yourself and what it is like, and think about even moments that you’ve ex spent in your life, or that you experienced, where you had those issues or where you had emotional pain, whatever it is. And then moving to curiosity and listening and understanding other people, it changes, it changes you and it changes your understanding of others. And so when you are in that empathy, when you start every conversation or at least prepare for every conversation, in a sense of in a way of you decid, and I’m gonna want, I want to see what’s on the other side. I want to understand and sense. What’s the other side. When you move into those conversations, you listen differently. You hear the words behind the words, the things they don’t say and do not feel afraid of asking those questions. Hey, Jenn, I know we wanna talk about the project today, but I’m, I’m sensing something is off. Tell me what, what is happening and just being okay. Asking those questions and understanding the other side and watch how people often often open up to you. And because of you asking those questions again, they feel seen, they feel valued and then the relationship changes. Take a Moment to Connect with Others Roberto Giannicola:  So what’s important is to take a pause sometimes and take a pause for yourself and take a pause to connect with people. Because once you create those connections and create that trust at an empathic level and seeing them for who they are and being okay through what you see and sense is difficult, just watch how relationships change, watch how much more they do for you and how things work. You know, there is an exercise, Jenn that we do sometimes in my classes, when I facilitate programs, we spend the evening together as a group and all the participants where the only purpose during dinner maybe is to share a defining moment or to share something important that happened in your lives that really changed you. And so we have five, six people at the table. I usually started as the facilitator. And then we ask questions and we, I share my own story, something that transformed me. And then the other person goes next and so on. And we listen and we are just being with the person at the end of that hour, hour and a half with those people. What I hear them say is, wow, I knew you. And I saw you walking in the hallways, in the building and so on, but I didn’t know that about you. Or wow, after this, I feel like I could call you at two in the morning and you would answer the phone. And the other guys will never saw them before said, yeah, I would answer the phone for you. Knowing, knowing your story, knowing your side is just incredible. How much more you can create in relationships. If you take the time and how much that helps you in every aspect of your work. So yeah. Empathy is big. Jenn DeWall:  Roberto. I love that. You know, it’s about taking the time you just to recap some of the things that you had shared with us. Build your self-awareness, understand, and be curious with yourself. Why do you show up the way that you do and then extend that to others. Yeah. And being curious. And I love that you talk about the power of the questions. I notice. You know, if you notice something, say it, or if you see something, say something, I wanted to say that, but be curious. So then people can feel heard. Roberto, I love your story. I just love the framework of even thinking about it as transferring the, the knowledge from that, that tech user space to the human system. Thank you so much for joining the show. Your newest book— or your book. You’ve Got Algorithm, But Can You Dance? How to Lead With Heart and Empathy, where can people pick that up? Where to Find More From Roberto Giannicola Roberto Giannicola:  So it’s, you can find it on my website at giannicola.com. So it’s my last name, dot com. Or, you can find me on LinkedIn as well. And the book is on Amazon. You can find all that information there as well, but my website is where you can find all that information about myself, speaking engagements or any work that I do, as well as the book. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for joining The Leadership Habit. We are so grateful to have you, and thank you for coming on to help, you know, create more empathetic leaders. That’s what the world needs right now. Thank you so much for donating and investing your time Roberto Giannicola:  With us. Thank you, Jenn. Such a pleasure. Some Questions Roberto Would Like You to Ponder Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much! Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode at The Leadership Habit podcast. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Roberto Giannicola. I just love saying that name. If you want to get to know Roberto, he actually provided us with some follow-up questions, which I love as a closing call to action. If you want to become a more empathetic leader, start asking yourself the following three questions: What are the fundamental pain points that you are currently experiencing? What are people telling you about areas in which you need to improve? What would you want it to be like when you are feeling more at ease, in a social context, able to influence others with confidence, heart, and empathy? Now, if you want to connect with Roberto, you can head over to Giannicola.com, and there you can purchase this book and find out more what the services he offers. If you’re interested in a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop, we would love to come in and help your team collaborate better, build trust, and just show up and create an environment we all want to work in. You enjoyed this podcast. Be sure to leave us a review, or share it with a friend. Thank you so much for tuning in until next time.   The post Learn to Lead With Heart and Empathy With Roberto Giannicola- Coach, Author and Facilitator appeared first on Crestcom International.

Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Laurie Sudbrink to talk about Leading with GRIT. Let me tell you a little bit more about Laurie. Like you, leadership expert and author Laurie Sudbrink has seen effective leadership that makes people want to step up and do more. And she has also seen downright terrible leadership that only inspires people to tell stories of the monstrous boss that they had! Can you relate? So what does it take to be effective? Is it power? Authority? An impressive title? Of course not. It’s about doing the right thing, even in the face of the most challenging times. And Laurie has over two decades of executive coaching, leadership training, and, most importantly, real-life business experience. And she is the author of Leading with GRIT, endorsed by Don Miguel Ruiz, author of The Four Agreements, which we talked about on the show and Ken Blanchard, author of The One Minute Manager! Enjoy our conversation as we talk about Laurie’s book, Leading with GRIT. Full Transcript Below   Meet the Author of Leading with GRIT, Laurie Sudbrink Jenn DeWall:  Welcome, welcome to The Leadership Habit!  Hi audience, today, we are going to be talking about Leading with GRIT! Laurie, I’m so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming in and donating your time and your expertise to The Leadership Habit audience. We are so grateful to have you! Laurie Sudbrink:  Oh, it’s such a pleasure to be here, Jenn. And I just have enjoyed our conversations and can’t wait for this one. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. I mean, they missed our pre-call talking about our mutual fear of spiders. Yes. And what that looks like as adults. But no, I love that we’re talking about a topic that I think the world needs right now. Right? Like we know that people are burnt out. People are the pandemic shifted and altered a lot of things. And I’m just so happy that you’re bringing this topic to our audience, but before we go in there, they know a little bit about you, but I always love starting with a great origin, you know, question and story. So Laurie, tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came to be as the author and Leading with GRIT. Tell us a little bit about your story. Laurie Sudbrink:  OK. Sure. You know, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go way back and tell you, you know, a little bit about where I came from as you know, from a family standpoint, because it’s, it’s very relevant. I grew up as a middle child of 14, and it was a blended family. So, you know, it was his, hers and theirs, and we were quite dysfunctional. And for anybody that remembers the Brady bunch that came, we were the crazy bunch. I mean, it was truly just a mad household. We had one bathroom for all those people. So it was, it was insane. And you know, we were taught to be tough, to suck it up, Sally! To, you know, even things like not, it wasn’t intentional, but the message came across that self-care was selfish, you know, things like that. Don’t give up no matter what, don’t share your vulnerabilities. It’ll make you look weak, you know, that kind of philosophy. And through my life that served me well in some areas, but it also, you know, took its toll in some areas. So one example would be when I was, I was a single mom, I was working full time. I was taking classes at the State University in New York and I was working on a communications degree. And I remember just that it was very important to me to get perfect grades. And I would focus on that and focus on that. And I wondered why at the end of every semester, I was sick. I was, I was just down and out, and then I couldn’t enjoy my time off. And it was a pattern. I mean, it was happening cuz I, you know, did this for eight years trying to get my degree while I was working full time as a, as a single mom. And I finally, you know, kind of dawned on me. It was like, wow. You know, and throughout the next few years, working with a coach and just being more aware, I realized that that pushing that, that tenacity, that traditional grit, you know, we need it, but not at the expense of ourselves. And it happens so often. I see it all the time, you know? So my childhood and my upbringing helped me to see in the workplace and you know, starting my own business in, in 1999 and, and working for the last 23, 24 years in this space, it really, it made me so much more aware of managers and leaders, people in leadership positions that sacrifice their health, their wellness, their relationships, that traditional grit causes collateral damage. And so my book Leading with GRIT is an acronym: Generosity, Respect, Integrity, and Truth. So it’s GRIT with generosity, respect, integrity, and truth. And it’s, you know, it’s, it’s like we need that grit, but to have sustainable grit and not cause collateral damage, we need to make sure we’re mixing those other things in. Who Should Read Leading with GRIT? Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, absolutely. Like not doing it in a vacuum who, yeah, like if you had to think about your target demographic, that person that was gonna pick up that book, which is that person that you think needs to read this book right now? Laurie Sudbrink: Well, it’s anyone that is in a leadership position for sure. Do you know? It’s and, and I’m gonna, I know this sounds really broad. And I can hone in on my customer avatar if we wanna go that, you know, micro, but as far as reading the book, leadership, in my experience and opinion, is not a position. It’s an action. And so anyone who wants to lead a better life, who wants to lead their children better, who wants to lead in their community, who wants to step into a leadership position in their organization, who is a CEO in an organization it’s a very basic kind of back to basics thinking, with generosity, respect, integrity, and truth. But what’s unique about it is the combination of these four areas. And we, you know, we look at grit as, as a roadmap, and we start with the truth. And so anyone who wants to feel better about their, their life, their work, maybe you’re, you’re trying to get to that next level in an organization. This book will help you to do it in a way that’s authentic. You’re giving to yourself as well as others, and you feel abundance. You feel like you have enough. You don’t feel that scarcity. You’re not as stressed. You’re not as burned out. You find true meaning and value in what you’re doing, and you balance that with the rest of your life. So it really is, you know, one of those leadership books that can transcend transition, you know, the transferable skills, it’s like, you can use it anywhere. Yeah, GRIT Doesn’t Mean Toughing It Out Jenn DeWall: No. And I, I love that. I know we’re gonna dive into the grit model, but for those that are listening, I mean, you might have heard some messages that you could maybe recall being somehow imprinted on you when you were younger, right. Understanding that we’ve developed this like tough it up mentality. That’s actually created more challenges for us. And also in the version of like, not only our productivity and, you know, how we work together with our team, but also in mental health. And so that’s one thing that Laurie and I do wanna talk about right now is mental health at work and the importance of it. Because I know in both of our line of work with the people that we see and just given the nature of the work that we do, I don’t know if you feel this, but I feel like sometimes I’m the only person that actually gets to hear what’s going on in someone’s brain because it’s that safe space, right? Because they don’t necessarily, leadership is lonely. They can’t say it to someone else. Or maybe it’s harder to share with a partner because they don’t necessarily understand the ins and outs of the role or they just turn into a different identity. Right. They have to be the dad or the mom. And they can’t think about work but mental health at work. It’s the one thing that I feel like we all need, but yet we have all those, I’m gonna call them stupid. OK? I’m gonna call them stupid messages that we got when we were younger. I got one that was like, don’t tell anyone, you know, never talk about your mental health, never share your problems. You make sure that everyone looks like, you know, they think this, I don’t know. I’m sure that’s what you were alluding to. Right? Like this, we’re supposed to create these images of ourselves that like, I’ve just got everything figured out what <laugh>. Yeah, Laurie Sudbrink:  Yeah. You know, it’s so true. It’s like we, that old adage, leave it at the door. That just, it doesn’t work, you know, and people will stuff it inside. And then you’re wondering why they’re coming to work and blowing up, or they’re disengaged because they have too much to deal with and you’re telling them to stuff it down, you know, and that’s, that is, has been kind of the environment that, and, and you can see kinda why, you know, you certainly don’t want everybody coming in and you’re got a line outside your door, and people are laying on your couch with, you know, and you’re giving ’em tissues. And, you know, you’re just like having that kind of environment. So people, right. And we want people to be able to, you know, step into their job and do it and, and, and be able to compartmentalize to some degree. But we have to be aware, especially with the events over the past few years, you know, people it’s really pushed people to new levels of, you know, this isolation and just the whole situation has been very challenging for people. And, you know, if we’re not aware of how somebody is showing up, how somebody’s feeling, how what’s going on with that person, we’re really missing huge opportunities. One opportunity, of course, is just to be human with someone else just to, to be there and, you know, connect with someone. And if that’s not motivation or enough for you, well, then think about it from your workplace and productivity because you’re missing an opportunity there. You’re missing an opportunity to have somebody feel like they want to be there. Like they want to do work. It’s a free motivator, you know when we really connect with someone and we really care about them, and there’s ways to do this, of course, it’s not just becoming that sponge and listening all day long. Right. We listen, and then we help redirect them. Right. And we help them to see, yeah. You know, I, I, I kind of know what you’re feeling, share a story that when you felt that way and then help them to see, you know, what I found by doing this. And we bring them, you know, away from that. So I often hear from leaders and managers that they don’t want to become that person that has a lot of empathy and show that. Because they’re afraid, they’re just, it’s gonna be nonstop, and they don’t know how to manage it. So it’s important of course, that we learn how to manage that, but we’re not aware of what’s going on with people in these, these issues, you know, it’s going to, it’s going to come out, you know, one way or another, it’s gonna come out, you know, in the workplace, which we see all the time, and we don’t connect the dots and realize, but it’s also gonna come out in our communities, in our home with our kids, you know, it really spreads the toxicity all over. GRIT and Mental Health Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Well, and it’s just, it’s a topic. I mean, last month was mental health awareness month. You know, we’re talking about how to develop grit today and what we’re not confusing grit with is just shoving it down and moving forward. Right. We’re talking about, you know, if you notice right now that you are feeling burnt out, overly stressed, that, you know, maybe you’re feeling overly anxious or depressed, it is OK to ask for help. Like, I guess like, that’s like, one thing I want to say is that I’ve embraced therapy throughout my years on this planet. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and I have loved the benefits of therapy and just being able to have someone to talk to, to kind of clear out the intense emotions that we have. And especially for me, a lot of stuff actually comes up about work because I am a high achiever, have a high sense of my identity attached to my success at work. And so when that doesn’t happen, that’s when I have a tendency to be like, oh my gosh, I’m a failure. I not doing this. Or, you know, then it becomes that kind of just really intense message of like, trying to prove it to everyone else. Like, that’s the grit, right? Like I’m just trying to prove that I’m enough to everyone else, which is not sustainable. And so we talk about mental health, like the, before we go into grit, like I just wanted to say like, again, the importance of managing that, like getting help if you need help and obviously holding space for others, and no, you do not need to be a therapist. People out there, you are not trained for that. Laurie Sudbrink: That’s right. Jenn DeWall:  You do not need to be that, but you’s right. Do need to understand that this stuff exists and that these aren’t, that, that whole adage of like drop your, or keep your personal problems at the door, blah, blah, blah. Like whatever that is. Yeah. You know that that’s not gonna work in the work environment that’s coming up today. And if people feel like you don’t care, well, they’re gonna find someone who will, Laurie Sudbrink: It’s so true. It’s so true. You know, and it’s it, you hit on a very important point, Jenn, that we’re not therapists. Even as coaches and leadership development experts, I’m I would never profess to be a therapist. When I have been in situations where it seems like somebody does need some professional help, though. I will be able to help them to see how to go about getting that, you know, give them some encouragement, just like you did with your audience, you know, to say, yeah, been there, done it, you know, been through therapy. I mean, I’ve done energy work, all kinds of stuff to help release the grief, the emotions that I’ve had over challenging times in my life. And without that help, it was coming out in different ways. I, I even had panic attacks and I didn’t know what was going on. Never had a panic attack in my life, you know? And it, this was on the heels of my, one of my brothers taking his own life, you know, and I, that was grief that I couldn’t deal with on my own. It was not something that I could think my way out of. I couldn’t meditate my way out of it. I did, I tried lots of things. I couldn’t therapist my way out of it. Quite frankly, I needed energy work to release that emotional memory. And that’s what really worked for me. But the things that showed up before I, before I got that help, I couldn’t even believe it was happening. I remember one panic attack I had, I was driving along to a new client and I knew exactly where this building was. And all of a sudden, I didn’t know where I was. I pulled over on the side of the road. I started freaking out. I had no idea where I was. And it was just like, I can’t believe this is happening. I mean, I knew it was happening, but I couldn’t stop it. And, and I ha I would never have like, connected those two things, but I know for sure it was that. Because after the energy work and stuff, you know, that I had done, I never had that again. You know, so we really do need to learn how to ask for help. And I’d say in the traditional sense of the word grit, don’t give up! When you’re looking and getting help, the first thing might not do it all. The second thing might not do it all. The first therapist might not work for you. It’s so important to never give up on that. Keep looking. I mean, it took me quite a while to figure it out and really get healed from those tragedies. But you can do it if I can do it; anybody can do it. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. I love that. You brought that up, finding a therapist. Yes. If someone’s listening, then maybe they’ve been contemplating asking for help for a little bit. It’s not necessarily, I mean, I have lucked into therapists and found great ones right off the bat. I’ve also had to go through the interview process, but I promise you that once you find that right fit, like it’s a great fit and it’s, oh my gosh. I just wish that most people would, you know, understand that maybe it’s this quote, Laurie, like you and I talked about this in the pre-call. We both are pretty empathic. Like, you know, the piece around the greatest abuse the human will ever endure is the abuse inflicted upon them by themselves. I love that quote from the Four Agreements. That is why to me, like, I think the benefit of therapy of talk therapy, even of just talking with coaches, not about like, we’re not talking, there are certain things that I would say that a coach should be OK to talk with you. And that also should be, you know, referring you to therapy for. So hopefully, people understand that blurred line. Because I know that in our profession, there’s a lot of people that maybe cross over into territory that they’re not traditionally trained to actually manage, just because they have the conversation. And that could actually cause more harm than good, so make sure that you have the right person there that’s, that’s gonna help you. But things are coming along on the mental health journey, Laurie because we have to talk about it, right? Like we have to! The Four Agreements at Work Laurie Sudbrink:  We do, you know, and you know, you brought up The Four Agreements and I’m so glad you did because it’s such a powerful book. And it’s changed my life as well as so many people’s. I know. I know Don Miguel Ruiz very well. Yes. Excellent. In fact, he endorsed my book. So he’s on the cover of Leading with GRIT and you know, I’ve worked with him and he’s just the epitome of self-love and love and the quote that you shared, you know, it’s, it’s just, it’s so true. We abuse ourselves way more than anybody else ever abuses us, abuses us. And we’ve gotta get to the root of that. But for anybody that hasn’t read, The Four Agreements definitely have to put a plug in there because it is a life changer. <Laugh> Jenn DeWall:  Oh my God. That is my it’s funny. So I just, this is one of the books that it’s, well, I guess we’re doing this now, but ill two books that I always keep on hand to give out to people. So the Alchemist and The Four Agreements, I just bought this one out at a garage sale. Like, cause I just, you know, when I give one away, then I have to go and buy another one that’s right. To someone and there actual books that I just, I love, but let’s get into your book now. Right. OK. How to develop grit and like, and again, I hope that, you know, if you were listening to this, it’s just another opportunity to reflect that if you are struggling with someone, it is OK to ask for help and you never know, but it’s, it’s getting over that first hurdle or maybe some of those messages of what you’ve heard about how it’s appropriate to deal with that. You know, we’re gonna be talking about grit today, but know that you’ve gotta start with kind of acknowledging those things too, but Laurie, I’m excited. We’re going into your book. How, how to develop grit. So let’s start it. I know you kicked off the framework, but let’s just reintroduce it because you know what I know I took this interview in a, in a few different directions already. So let’s relay the foundation and talk about that starting point again. Laurie Sudbrink:  Yeah. And you know, it’s actually worked out exactly like it was supposed to because Don Miguel Ruiz and The Four Agreements was who inspired me to write this book because what I was doing, I was working with The Four Agreements in the workplace. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and long story short, the publisher decided they didn’t wanna go that route to have me write that book. So I wrote Leading with GRIT to help bridge that self-help into the workplace. So it’s kind of that sneaky approach. It’s like Wiley published it first. I have since taken the rights back so that I could do more with it myself, but Wiley took it and published it as Leading with GRIT to, you know, really reach leaders in people in leadership positions with this self-help. So it’s, it’s cool that you brought that up, and the whole thing just came out because I don’t think I would’ve shared that without you bringing that up. Jenn DeWall:  I think that’s bananas, that just came up organically. Everything Starts with Our Truth Laurie Sudbrink: It’s just amazing. That is I never, and I don’t think I’ve ever shared that in an interview, so it’s pretty cool. So GRIT, generosity, respect, integrity, and truth. They stand solid on their own. We need these characteristics to be successful as human beings and as people in leadership positions, for sure. Like I said, it’s the unique combination of these that really creates the success, the magic, so to speak. And so the acronym, I invert it and start with truth because everything starts with us, right. Everything starts with our truth. Who are we? And do we accept ourselves self-love so important to be able to look objectively at ourselves and be able to look at the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, and just be like, OK, this is me, you know? And, and so accepting, it doesn’t mean not changing anything. It means being able to first accept it and be OK with it because if we try to deny it and resist it, I don’t know who said this, but I love it. What we, you know, what we resist persists, Jenn DeWall:  What we resist persists. <Laugh> yes. <Laugh> Laurie Sudbrink:  And it’s so true. It’s like it just bubbles, and it stays in there. So it’s like, OK, we’ve gotta know ourselves, accept ourselves. We can look at what we want to change. We use the DISC profile in the workplace to help people with a very psychologically safe way to look at who am I, and what are my tendencies? What am, what am I natural at? What takes more energy and effort. And then, you know, that’s one tool that you can find out a little bit more about yourself. What do I wanna do to grow and learn? That’s just looking at your truth. So the truth is that first level. Then we go to integrity. Jenn DeWall:  On, hold on. Let’s dive into the truth a little bit. Yeah, because I think that’s the foundation that I think is hard for some people. I would say myself included, right? Because sometimes, working within can maybe find things that I don’t love about myself, or I might also find the opportunities where I am setting myself up to be a perfect person and actually being overly critical. So then I don’t wanna look at myself because I just, and again, going back to mental health, like, it’s that unworthiness like you are worthy. Yes. You have strengths. Yes. How do you help people? Because it is that difficult piece of that bridging the gap between self-awareness and self-love, like right. and understanding the truth. Like how do you help people connect that? Because you know, as an achiever, and I know that we’ve got used to that, I’m sure. Listening to the podcast <laugh> you might be like, yeah, I know, like the stuff that I do that yes. You know, I could change, but we don’t really turn it into self-love and compassion. Yeah. Which is I think the spiral that, you know, we see in the form of stress, but, well, The Trouble with ANTs— Automatic Negative Thoughts Laurie Sudbrink:  Thank yeah. Thank you for honing in on that because it’s, it is such a critical piece, and it can be the most difficult piece for a lot of us, including myself, and, you know, it’s I go back to think about, think about our domestication, our indoctrination, every, all those thoughts and beliefs that get put into our head from who knows where it doesn’t matter as much as just realizing that we’re like tape recorders and this stuff has been in there for a long time and we do different things with it inside. Well, why not put loving thoughts in, instead of these, what, why I call the ants, the automatic negative thoughts and we’re so, Jenn DeWall: Oh, I love that! The ants! Laurie Sudbrink: The ants, you know, those ants are creeping around, and it’s like they’re itching. And it’s like, oh, I get those ants out of there. Right? Because it’s true. We do. We, in fact, I was getting some new business photos done just the other day, and I was on the zoom, picking out the photos, and we were laughing because I kept looking at all the flaws <laugh> and she was like, you’re so good at looking at your flaws, let’s start to, you know, step back. And I said, it’s so true. Thank you for showing me that! Because we do and we’ll look at all the things we didn’t accomplish. And so we’ve gotta like step back and say, let’s reprogram ourselves, because that doesn’t serve us. Well, that’s not helping anyone. It’s not helping me. It’s not helping me to be able to help you. And so what I help people do is look at those automatic negative thoughts that they have look at the ants that might be crawling around in there. And we don’t even see ’em or hear ’em half the time. And you know, sometimes it’s just through a self-awareness journaling, those types of things working either on your own or with someone to help you stay on track, to just be aware of those at first, and then be aware of the thought you had when you were aware of those. Oh, were you beating yourself up about having too many of ’em? You know, it’s just, it’s kind of lighten up about it and have some fun with it too. Because I think that’s really important if we are our physiological state of how we are when we’re trying to be objective is so important. So it’s like have a little fun with it. So I help my clients have some fun with looking inside and then being able to say, what can I replace that with? That serves me well, and literally reprograming our reprogramming ourselves in order to be able to do that. And I know some people think that’s some hokey pokey stuff, but it works. It really is what we focus on, we become, right? Yes. What we put in there, we become. That’s why visualizing and goal setting is so powerful because we start to shift our thoughts and beliefs around what’s possible. And then that drives our behavior to show up for that. So to be able to accept ourselves, love ourselves, it’s it does take a little bit of reprogramming because of everything that we have been conditioned to do. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Well, and I think I, you know, initially I think people– how do I describe this? People used to think that thought work was just kind of this bananas thing. Like, oh, why do you get to do that? And no, it’s actually tied to like how your brain is functioning. The chemical reactions that are coming through are driven by your thoughts in whether you realize it or not. You actually get to choose your thoughts. You know, like, that’s that big piece. And I’m not gonna say, like, I still have a tendency. I can get, let those ants crawl all over me and be like, Jenn, you’re really failing at life. Me too, not doing this. Like, you know, but also then I have to take responsibility that like, do I wanna pitch a tent there because that’s not gonna be productive. Like, because we actually do get to choose that. And that’s the piece that I, I think is so interesting even in the landscape of 10 years of people being like that’s bananas to think like, OK, I kind of understand that, right. If we put it in a language like this is emotional intelligence, we’re thinking about how we’re navigating our world and how we’re responding. Laurie Sudbrink:  Well, you know, and I think sometimes Jenn,  people think that, you know, sometimes people will abuse it or misuse it. They’ll think all I have to do is say these positive things, but I don’t have to show up and do anything and it doesn’t work like that. Right. Like we get just like, oh, we’re just gonna like brainwash ourselves to yeah. It works in conjunction, you know? So it’s of course it’s doing other things as well. It’s finding what makes us feel good and motivated, for example, you know, it’s like I do grounding and earthing almost every single day, bare feet on the earth, getting energy. Like that works for me. It makes me feel good. I listen and converse and talk to people like yourself. It brings me up. It makes me like, all right, you know, motivated and stuff. And you know, music, music is a great one. It’s like, yeah, when I’m feeling down or something, don’t listen to the blues. Like I’m gonna turn on something. That’s gonna make me like yeah. Ready to like dance. So it’s knowing ourselves and that is part of truth. You know? It’s like when we know ourselves and we give ourselves what we need, that’s when we can be authentic and confident and we’ll be in our truth. But just like you said, we’re not flawless. I have ants too. You know, it’s like, but you know what? Now with this awareness, I suffer a lot less. Not as long, I don’t pitch that tent there. I don’t stay down in that ditch with those ants. You know, it’s like, Ooh, I feel it quicker. And I know how to get myself out of there faster than I used to. So, and that’s, you know, integrity. That’s really the bridge to integrity. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Integrity is the Action of Our Truth Jenn DeWall:  I wanna dive into integrity. And before I even say that, I want to say this. I don’t know if you get this in your line of the work, but I do confidence coaching and I, this will stick with me because one friend, I, I don’t remember what we were talking about, but I was not confident about what we were talking about. She’s like, Jenn, well, aren’t you, the person that teaches confidence? <Laugh> And I looked at it and I’m like, you are not going to make me think that I have to show up perfectly all the time. So I think people, you know, like the last caveat of truth is like, we are always gonna be growing and probably yes. Just when you think that you have figured out something, you’re probably gonna stretch yourself and take a new risk and you’re gonna be like, oh gosh, this stuff all over again. Laurie Sudbrink:  <Laugh> You’re oh my gosh. You’re so, so I love that because it’s like, we, if we’re not like stumbling and going, you know, and, and needing some help, we’re not being risky enough. Are we, we’re not growing, we’re not stretching ourselves enough. And it can be– and I remember feeling this way a lot more in my, earlier in my career, almost like you had to be flawless and you had to show up that way because people were looking to you for that. And one comment like that would make me feel like, oh, you know, yikes. I’m not where I’m supposed to be. Yeah. Maybe Jenn DeWall:  I should quit my entire job. Yeah. <Laugh> exactly. Laurie Sudbrink:  And it was like, no, you know, it’s like, of course you’re growing and learning too. Now you have to have some level of credibility. You have to have some level of that. Of course we do. But we don’t want to ever come across as flawless, especially if you’re somebody in a leadership position, because you think about what message that is sending to your team, to the people that report to you. You can’t make a mistake. You need to be perfect. You need to, you know, and you got, what’s gonna happen. They’re gonna cover things up. They’re not going to share the mistake they just made. They’re not gonna speak up because you haven’t been vulnerable enough with your team to share that you’re real and human too. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. You nailed it with that one. All right. Now let’s go into integrity. I’m sorry that I had to go into that. Laurie Sudbrink:  Go that’s OK. I love it. Jenn DeWall:  I went into that reflection of being like, should I not be doing what I’m doing with a comment like that? Like, and that’s the natural thing, but let’s say integrity. Laurie Sudbrink:  Yeah. Yeah. So, so integrity is the action of our truth. So it’s taking action on our truth. And so it’s not about being flawless. It’s about doing your best with that. Because sometimes people think, oh, you know, being in integrity, that means being perfect and never, you know, having anything wrong. No, no, no, no, no. It’s, it’s being aware of what’s important to you and your truth and making sure that you walk the talk and do what you say is important to you. It helps you stay aligned to yourself. And you know, it helps you to, to be able to really take the action on that. So for example, if I say health and wellness is really important to me, but yet I go home, kick off my shoes, start eating Snickers, bars, watching like crap on television. It’s like is health and wellness really important to me? What come on, you know, like there’s a disconnect here. I either need to change and say health and wellness isn’t important to me, or I need to change my actions. So it’s, it’s a way it’s a self awareness for ourselves to go, OK, something’s not in alignment here and, and we can dig deeper. So it’s, it’s, you know, it’s not grit and that whole roadmap is not meant to Ooh, you know make us feel bad. It’s made to help us look at ourselves and keep looking at ourselves. So integrity is staying in alignment. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s like when I make a mistake, if I’m in integrity, I apologize. I’m sorry that I hurt your feelings when I said that, that wasn’t my intent. I really meant to just help you see blah, blah, blah. You know, it’s, it’s cleaning up your mess that you’ve made sometimes when you were human, when you didn’t mean to. To do something maybe, maybe you’re late and you need to, you know, I’m sorry for that. Let me make that up. You know, and it’s not skirting over that. It’s and so often we hear, oh, don’t say, you’re sorry, don’t say, you’re sorry. Well, that’s for chronic sorry-sayers. You know, it’s not right. It’s not for people that we do need to sometimes sincerely apologize for something that we need to clean up the mess for. So being in integrity is just an action of your truth. Jenn DeWall: It sounds like it’s, you know, alignment to self. To what you want. What’s important to you,  and also owning your stuff. Yeah. You know, like if you don’t come off, like, gosh, I, I teach leadership and you know what, sometimes still goof up. What do I do? Yeah. Ring, ring, ring, or set up that zoom meeting. Hey, you know what I realized that I might have left something out when we talked and I am really sorry for the confusion that that caused you. I have to own this in exchange. Like, Hey, could you do this? You know, it’s we make owning our stuff so much scarier than what it has to be. Laurie Sudbrink: Yeah. Jenn DeWall: <Laugh> We make it so complicated! Laurie Sudbrink:  Do. We really do. You know? And it’s just like, when you just bring it to light you, it goes away. You know what I mean? Like you just, otherwise, you hold onto it and abuse yourself worse than anybody else. Right. Like you’re and it’s like, no, just, just be transparent. Just be like, oh, when that thought pops in your head, think about. Would it make sense? Would it help that person to share with them? Like you just demonstrated? And if it does, then by all means, share with them, you know, and, and help them to see it. If it’s just something you need to get off your back and it’s not gonna help that other person, then get it off your back with your coach or someone else. Right. Like, so be aware of where that makes sense to do that. I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about being vulnerable. And we were talking, we, we got talking about it. We’re like, well, you know, it’s important for leaders to make sure that they’re mindful of why they’re sharing their vulnerability with their team. Because if they just come in and decide, ah, you know, and just dump on their teams that is not going to be helpful or effecti, right. Like it, that’s not the place to do it. It’s you need an outlet to do that with a coach or with a great friend or a mentor or someone. Because you said it earlier, leadership is lonely. It’s hard, but we don’t want to be venting down with our teams. You know, we don’t wanna be doing that. It’s an art when it comes to really sharing that vulnerability with purpose so that you’re helping them and you’re redirecting them and helping them grow and learn. And so that’s a bit of integrity. It’s also a bit of respect. Respecting Yourself So You Can Respect Others Jenn DeWall:  I was gonna say, it’s it feels like we’re moving into respect. Laurie Sudbrink:  We Are. Yeah. Jenn DeWall:  You talk about respect, like, what is that? Like self-respect, respecting others? What do you mean by respect? What does that encompass? Laurie Sudbrink:  Yeah. Well with it, you know, you think about when you know yourself and accept yourself and you align to yourself that is indeed showing self-respect. Right. We’re doing what we need to do we’re for ourselves. And that way our cup is full and we can then start to respect others. It runneth over. Right. It’s like, we start to be able to see, oh, I don’t rely, I don’t know somebody else’s truth. I respect that. I don’t know everything. I don’t know all of that, you know? And we start to respect that they may be struggling with something that we have no idea about instead of jumping to conclusions, when somebody comes in and they’re angry or they’re throwing something around, or they just won’t make eye contact with you. Instead of taking it personally, when we are in that area of self-respect and respect, we can give it some space. We can ask some questions. We don’t let things, press our buttons because we’re whole, you know, we, we know ourselves, accept ourselves, we’re living in integrity and we’re respecting other people. And so when we respect other people, we realize too, you go back to the DISC styles that I talked about earlier. Everyone has different strengths and limitations, everyone, all of us do. That’s what makes it so interesting. And, and so cool. I think it’s cool, anyway! Jenn DeWall:  Every person you meet is both your teacher and your student is one of my favorite principles. I just love that one, but we don’t realize that because of the, I’m gonna call it the, like that prove it. We have to prove ourselves, our worthiness to everyone else. Yeah. And so then it creates this awkwardness that just noise and being able to see that, that we all have something to share and you all, we all have something to learn like, yeah. Laurie Sudbrink:  Yeah, exactly. And not to be afraid of that. You know, I just heard someone on a group call the other day say that he wasn’t connecting with people in his own industry. You know, he didn’t wanna do that. He wanted to make sure that he, you know, like kept himself separate from that. And I just thought he’s missing such a huge opportunity because you learn and grow from those people. Don’t feel threatened by the people in your industry, like right. We help each other. We grow, we learn, we, you know, it’s, it’s such a beautiful thing. You know, so it’s, it’s that line of thinking. It’s like, we’ve gotta, you know, if we feel confident enough we’re, we’ll respect other people and want to connect authentically with them, you know, and, and respect that they’re, they’re different than we are. I I know before the DISC tool, I first was introduced to that back in 1997. And I know that I never quite understood why people didn’t think and act just like me, you know, why aren’t you motivated by competition? Why aren’t you like, I just didn’t really get it until that tool shined the light on it, to help me to see that that’s not somebody else’s motivator and their stressor might be different than mine. Like for example, some people think everybody avoids conflict, you know, it’s, it’s a natural thing to avoid conflict. Not true. Some people love conflict. They love to get into that, you know? And so it’s, it’s so fascinating and interesting when we learn that about other people and we can truly respect that. It’s all good. It’s not, it’s not good or bad. It’s not for judgment. It’s just different. That’s the essence of respect. Jenn DeWall:  Gosh, if we could, I feel like I wish I saw more in the workplace is is that respect for cognitive diversity of understanding of like thinking styles. You might be more of an analytical or you might be more of this, but understanding that we all think differently based on our lived experiences like I ask a ton of questions. It is not to undermine your authority. Right. It is because that’s how I just learn. Yeah. And, or I might be more reluctant on some, you know, to take a risk in some regard because of my past. Yeah. You know, and I just wish people had more of that understanding of like, I, maybe I say this because I say it to my 20-year-old self that really struggled with yes. My own self-confidence. Once I kind of felt that label from my leadership team, like don’t ask questions, like be more vanilla. Yeah. And then you start to think like, oh my gosh, I’m, I’m bad. I’m not like, you know, life, like, what’s wrong with me instead of being like, oh, having that self-respect, like I just have a different way of looking at it. And so do they, like, how can we understand that neither one of us is right or wrong. We don’t need to prove it. Right. Laurie Sudbrink:  <Laugh> and you know, you brought up something that made me think about Jenn in the workplace. You know, when we, when we can teach, when we can learn, when we can when people can learn how to say these things, like how to ask questions, it’s great to be curious and ask questions, but sometimes it can come across to somebody like you’re nitpicking or you’re disagreeing, or we can come up with ways to ask those questions. Like we can preface it with, Hey, I wanna ask some questions because I’m curious about this. If we share our intent, sometimes that can just break the ice and help the other person. Right. And it’s like, those kinds of things, those little, I call ’em two-degree shifts can just make a huge difference in the workplace. Jenn DeWall:  I love the two-degree shift. Like, Hey, I’m just gonna ask you questions cuz that’s how I learn. Like, is that OK if I ask you questions? Laurie Sudbrink:  Right. Right. Exactly. And, and people usually wanna help. And they’re like, yeah. I mean, I wanna learn those. So, and then they’re like, well, sure. Ask me questions. You know? <Laugh> Once You Have Truth, Integrity and Respect— You Find Generosity Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. Which I, OK. How it helps. Right. Like thinking about help, we’re going into generosity. Laurie Sudbrink: Yeah. Jenn DeWall: Is generosity. So that’s the complete part of the framework. Laurie Sudbrink:  It generosity, you know, it’s like, that’s the complete part. I love the way you said that. Because it’s like, when we know and accept ourselves, we align to ourselves. We respect ourselves and others. We have a feeling of abundance instead of scarcity, we give without even feeling like we need to get something back. It’s that Pay it Forward concept. Right. If you haven’t seen the movie for the audience, it’s it just, it nails it. Right. It’s like giving without the need for recognition or the need to get something back. That’s what happens with the GRIT model. It’s like you put it into the workplace setting for a minute and you think I don’t, I don’t shy away from giving that constructive feedback. I want to give Jenn feedback because I care about her and I wanna help her to see something differently. I don’t feel so stressed out that I’m going to yell and lose it, because I’ve been taking care of myself. I’ve been aligning with myself. So it’s that. And when I don’t, I’m OK with it. I can go and, and clean that, clean up the mess. Right. It’s not an unattainable definition of perfection. But yeah, so that generosity flows naturally. It flows authentically. We don’t have to try so hard. It just comes as a result. And we really do think of others, but not at the expense of ourselves. And I see that so much people are told all the time. Don’t think about yourself, think about other people. Think about other people that does not work if we’re not whole. And I think that’s was one of the problems with my brother. He was so about giving, and he’d give the shirt off his back, but then he wasn’t taking care of himself and we have to take care of ourselves in order to be able to authentically give. So if we’re not, if we’re feeling resentful, if we’re feeling like something’s wrong there at that generosity, then go back to your integrity and your truth. And look at that, because that’s what the model does for us. It helps us to then go, oh, if at any point in this model I’m feeling like it’s not natural. It’s not working. Then just go back to the layer or two before that and take a look and it will help you to, to repair that. So to speak. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. And that’s where I think I love that. You say that, cause you can’t start with generosity. You can’t give away everything of yourself without knowing what you’re giving, what you want to give. Yeah. And what’s there to give. And you know, that generosity like making people just be them best be their best selves, but also not doing it at the expense of yourself. And I think, yes, I guess maybe in, you know, going back to the beginning of like talking about burnout, talking about overwhelm, talking about mental health at work. So many people mistake, generosity, like, well I can’t say no. I’ve gotta just say yes, I have to like help everyone. I have to please my boss, you to start with yourself first, otherwise it’s not sustainable, but yet it’s a, it’s a guilt that we all have like right. Because that person’s, you know, I hang myself worth–I did it for so long– to what other people thought of me. Yes. And so then, Laurie Sudbrink:  And we’re not enough, right? We’re not enough. We’re not. Jenn DeWall:  So then generosity becomes a prove it syndrome, which, yeah, you are exactly enough Laurie Sudbrink:  <Laugh> yes, exactly. You. Yeah. And you know, you hit it on the head when you said you can’t start with generosity and I, I hear it. So, so often even, you know, I, I did a poll the other day on LinkedIn to find out who should come first in business, your customer, your employees, or yourself and hardly anybody put themselves. And it was kind of a, you know, loaded question. But I wanted to see, do you put yourself first so that you can give to other people, you know, so that you, you know, a lot of people did say employees and most people said customers and it’s like, we have to show up. We have to give to ourselves, not at the expense of other people, but so that we can show up for our people, our families, the people that we serve and our customers. And if we don’t give to our employees, they’re not gonna be able to give to our customers, you know? So it’s that ripple effect. We’ve got to take care of ourselves first so that we can, you know, have that feeling of abundance and be able to give where necessary, Where to Find More From Laurie Sudbrink Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh, Laurie, I have loved our conversation. So for those that are listening, you know, give yourself some love, start with finding your truth, going through, you know, the GRIT model that Laurie just shared, like truth, integrity, respect, generosity, Laurie, where can they pick up your book? Laurie Sudbrink:  Yeah. So you definitely go to Amazon to pick up the book. I would like to put it out there if it’s OK, for a free assessment for people. Yeah, absolutely. I love assessments and you know, it’s just for self-awareness. So it’s, you can get the assessment at Laurie Sudbrink, L A U R I E S U D B, R I N K dot com and then slash GRIT assessment. And go ahead, you know, and do the assessment. Have some, self-awareness, remember to practice acceptance, be objective, laugh a little, if you need to <laugh> and what, what you get is the results. You get a score for yourself because everybody likes a score. But it’s more about self-awareness and then it will point you to different places in the book. So you can go on the self-development journey on your own if you’d like. And so I like to give that tool to people to be able to at least start there. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. I love that. And thank you so much for offering that to our listeners, Laurie, I really liked our conversation. I mean, these are just such important topics. I thank you so much for just coming on, talking about it and I hope to be able to have you back on the podcast again soon. Laurie Sudbrink:  Oh, you are a kindred spirit. I feel like a soul sister to you, Jenn. I have truly enjoyed our conversations and thank you so much. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with Laurie Sudbrink. Now, as she said, if you wanna take that grit assessment, you can head on over to LaurieSudbrink.com. There you can take the assessment. You can also pick up her book Leading with GRIT and also learn a little bit more about Laurie. If you know someone that maybe could benefit from hearing this conversation, share it with them. And of course, if you enjoyed this conversation, leave us a review on your favorite podcast, or streaming platform, these your views, let us know that, Hey, we’re giving you what you need today. And I hope that you enjoy this conversation and that you’re inspired to get a little gritty today! Until next time.   The post Leading with GRIT with Author and Coach, Laurie Sudbrink appeared first on Crestcom International.

Building Relationships with Better Networking On this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sit down to talk with Carol Parrish, all about building relationships and networking. Let me tell you a little bit more about Carol. Carol Parrish helps female leaders and male-dominated professions like aerospace manufacturing and tech achieve financial freedom and peace of mind around their wealth so they can enjoy life now and still not have to eat cat food in retirement. I mean, I think that’s what we all want to make sure we can avoid! She describes herself as an air traffic controller of finances. Financial life is like an airport with airplanes taking off, landing and flying in all different directions. At different times, Carol manages all the air traffic to create a flight plan that is easy to understand, execute and adjust as needed. Carol earned the retirement income certified professional designation. The R I C P. She has a bachelor’s degree in accounting from the University of Washington and a master’s degree in sports management from the Ohio state university. When not working, Carol is usually watching softball, baseball, basketball, or football with her two kids and husband. And I hope you enjoy the conversation as Carol and I talk about how you can build relationships through networking. Meet Carol Parrish, Wealth Advisor for Women in Male-Dominated Industries Jenn DeWall:  Hi, everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to be sitting down with Carol Parrish to talk about an extremely important topic that I think is arguably important to everyone— understanding how to build our relationships or build successful relationships and also what we can do in networking to facilitate that genuine conversation to make people actually want to get to know more about us instead of maybe just making it all about us. But to be here, to talk about this topic of relationship building and networking. I’m so excited to welcome Carol. Carol. Thank you so much for joining The Leadership Habit podcast. It’s great to have you. Carol Parrish:  Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. Jenn DeWall:  So Carol, tell us a little bit about yourself. I love to start with a good origin story. Tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came to be. Carol Parrish:  Sounds good. So right now, I’m a financial advisor who helps establish women in Aerospace and other male-dominated fields achieve financial freedom and just have peace of mind around their money. So they can actually enjoy themselves right now and not worry about having to eat cat food in retirement. <Laugh> so because I work in Aerospace a lot of times, I like to say that I’m the air traffic controller of finances because you can picture airplanes coming in and taking off and trying not to crash. And there are so many different moving parts. So I come in and manage that air traffic and create a flight plan for my clients. So I kind of have a weird beginning. I actually started in college athletics doing marketing, which was a love— and still is a love of mine— is sports. And then, at the time would say I was a victim of the economy and an O-16 football season at the school I was working at. And, of course, in hindsight, like many things, it was a blessing in disguise because I love what I’m doing now. And working with people and meeting people and helping people, which is kind of what we’re gonna talk about today. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, well and helping people with, I mean, our money, that is something that is, that is the result of our hard work time, like to actually build trust with someone. You know, that sounds really important. I feel like you have to be a master at that because it is something where if I don’t trust you, I won’t even buy a hot dog for a dollar if I don’t trust that vendor. Right. So it’s, I won’t even spend the smallest amount. And so I love just really being able to leverage and understand how you approach this because it is so important. But okay. We had talked about this in the pre-call. There was a point in time when you actually were like, ah, I dunno how I feel about conversations. Yeah. How did you get outta that fear? Because I think a lot of people can relate to maybe feeling awkward or insecure or just avoiding those random conversations. How did you get over that fear, or what was that experience initially like for you when you were actually going out thinking about networking to build relationships? Overcoming a Fear of Networking to Build Relationships Carol Parrish:  Yeah. So that’s a great question. And I like, I think back even when I was a kid, I was really shy, which nobody that I know now believes that I was ever shy. But then, once I got to know people, I kind of come outta my shell and whatnot. And then when I first, you know, started in my real first career where I had to actually get to know people, it was really awkward at first, but then I realized looking around the room that everybody else was in the same situation and feeling the same way. So they didn’t wanna go up and talk to anybody either. So I figured if I did it, it’d be breaking the ice, then they feel better because they don’t have to be the one that initiates conversation too. So whenever I’m feeling uncomfortable, I kind of remind myself about that, and that’s in probably more, a more formal setting. But I know we also talked about just casual encounters were just starting a conversation with someone. As I mentioned, my love for sports. Well, thankfully, my kids have inherited that same love for sports. And we spend so much time watching them with other parents that I’ve built some significant relationships with people, just chit chatting, sitting in the stands and you know, oh, what do you do? What do you do? And, and you learn a lot about them and find, you know, areas we have in common, you know, clearly you and I both like red. So is that a <laugh> topic that we talk about? But just reminding myself that other people are in the same situation. So Jenn DeWall:  I love that if we just went to a networking event. So this is to our listeners. The next time you walk into a networking event, remind yourselves that everyone there is probably like, I’m uncomfortable. I don’t wanna be judged. I’m not sure who to talk to. There are very few people I think are overly competent in networking because most people I think are. Also, they’re just concerned with like how they’re gonna be perceived. But yet we compare or somehow assume someone’s mastered the awkwardness of it. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and chances are if they just haven’t articulated it or you just can’t see it because you haven’t gotten to know them, but I love your approach of embracing the random conversations. Yeah. Then, the natural conversations that just occur in the day-to-day, whether it’s at a soccer game or I can think of an example recently where I got connected with a really cool nonprofit organization to volunteer with them, all because I met someone through a friend casually at an event, she was like, Hey, we’re looking for someone to coach our students. Would you help? Perfect. Yeah. Let’s work with them on speaking. And it was amazing, but that never would’ve happened if I didn’t get to know my friend’s friend through a random conversation. Carol Parrish:  You know, that, that brings up a good point too, about just volunteering. Like, I just gave blood yesterday, and I didn’t meet anybody there that we stayed in touch with after a day. But we’re all sitting around there with nothing to do because we’re having, you know, we have a bag attached to our arm, and we’re talking with the people that are working there. We’re talking with other people doing that. Boards that we serve on. You get to meet people that way, but it’s also, it’s a way to combine two things at once. So kill two birds with one stone where you can still spend your time doing something you’re passionate about and then meet other people that are passionate about the same thing. So you have an automatic connection right there, and you get to do something you like doing. What Makes Networking and Building New Relationships so Hard? Jenn DeWall:  Yes, the win-win. Now let’s talk about what makes relationship building hard because whether you’re a new leader and you’re responsible for maybe meeting new people and influencing them, or whether maybe you are in sales or you want to influence a customer, let’s talk about some of the challenges that leaders will run into in your perspective, or from your perspective, what makes relationship building challenging? Carol Parrish:  Well I think depending on the person, it could be one of a number of things, but for a lot of people, as we just talked about, it’s just a kind of the fear of the unknown. You know, people generally want to be liked, and they don’t wanna walk up to somebody and say something that they think is stupid. And I think that’s a huge concern, you know? Well, I’m less concerned about it now because, in my old age, I just realized I am who I am, and sometimes I’m gonna screw up, and sometimes I’m not. People are, I, I know it’s a hot topic now about trying to be your authentic self, which is great because it makes people more comfortable. But sometimes, people are afraid to show that side of themselves too. Yeah. So it’s that fear of being authentic and just being yourself too. Jenn DeWall:  Gosh, I can see that in like, in that way of just feeling like, but will they like me? What if they don’t like me? Why would I show up as my authentic self? What if they think I’m weird or strange or dumb, right. Not even smart, like how we all naturally have that negative self-talk that gets in our way. I mean, that’s what I think. Carol Parrish:  Same, same self, negative self-talk we had when we were kids, and oh my God, there’s, you know, Bobby across the playground, and I wanna go say hi, but what’s he gonna think of me? And oh, that new girl really seems really cool. It’s the same thing. It’s just now we’re adults, and we’re, it’s our professional lives. Normalize Feeling Awkward! Jenn DeWall:  When do you think we’ll actually normalize that? It’s okay to be uncomfortable. Like it’s totally normal. Instead of, because I still think people have done that situation so many times, but yet maybe you’re still like, I don’t know why, what if we just accepted that? It’s, it’s awkward in the beginning. Right. You’re getting to know someone. Carol Parrish:  You and I start it right here! Here it goes, you have to be uncomfortable to grow and do things. So the other, one of the things that I was with COVID hitting, I think has caused an interesting challenge too, is virtual relationship building versus in person. And some people that were really natural at an in person don’t like talking in front of a computer like we are right now. And then the flip flop was some people that would get really nervous and didn’t want to attend anything in person. Now they feel, I think a sense of security because they have this screen between them and the other person too. Jenn DeWall: I’m one of those people, and I’m an extrovert, but the being on a screen, I’m like, okay, this feels so much more comfortable. I feel like I don’t, maybe because I have a tendency to maybe sweat when I’m nervous or talk really fast. And for some reason, in that virtual setting, I don’t know if it’s the cutoff of their non-verbal cues or maybe the other noise in the environment, but it’s so much easier for me to meet people virtually than it is in person. I just am less in my head with it. Carol Parrish:  <Laugh> well, I think now people have realized that it, well, maybe that’s not the right word, but like a lot of people when COVID hit, organizations and companies were trying to find ways to engage their employees or their association members more easily. So I feel like people were more inviting in general, trying to encourage people to speak up, which I think is helpful too. Like there were a number of calls that I was on through Elevate- how you and I met- through the Elevate network where we would, I don’t like the term single out, but we would ask for feedback and input from people and invite them to speak, which I think made them more comfortable. And then once they realized that it was a welcoming group, then they became a little bit more open when you are at an in-person event. And there are a lot of people around you who are trying to have a conversation, but you’re also thinking about all the other people around you that might be looking at you, or you might get distracted looking at someone else, which you don’t have as much in the virtual world too. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Oh my gosh. So much of that noise is cut off, but you hit on a really important piece of, of creating that psychologically like safe space, that welcoming environment that, you know, what makes it hard is when we aren’t intentional about that. And we just assume that maybe we’ll start talking without actually laying the foundation or the groundwork for a conversation. Oh, and you’ve got a dog! Yeah, no worries. That’s real life. We’re, we’re talking. We have a little break with the dog. No problem at all. But trust. I mean, knowing that, yeah, it is hard to go into a conversation with someone to feel like I want to confide in you or even tell you about myself. I know for me, for some reason, and earlier in my career, it was harder to actually facilitate relationships with executives because of the fear of maybe, you know, that imposter syndrome feeling like they’re looking at me like, are you sure you can do your job just a little intimidated? And I still get a little in my head if, if I’m with someone that’s achieved a lot in their life or they have a high level of authority, I can get super intimidated by that because I know that I’m awkward. And so then I don’t know what to say. Carol Parrish:  It totally, it totally reminds me of, I don’t know if it was people magazine or us magazine where they show the celebrities out, like at the grocery or going for a jog and it’s like celebrities, they’re just like us, which is the same thing, like with an executive or a president or CEO or somebody that we were nervous about talking to. I mean, they’re people too. Right? And I have found that in many cases, they don’t want to feel like they’re on that pedestal per se. So sometimes they’re easier to talk to because they have more practice at engaging people and are trying to what’s the word I’m looking for to just have a level conversation or interact more with people too. Avoiding the Pitfalls of Networking Conversations Jenn DeWall:  Let’s, let’s hit on some of the pitfalls to avoid because I know that there’s the awkwardness, but yet when you find yourself in that networking conversation or in that room with someone, I feel like I just had it. I don’t even know. Two days ago, like had someone trying to build a relationship in a digital way, right over LinkedIn. And then, they sent the initial message that I didn’t ask for. And then they follow up with a, and you aren’t paying attention to me. And I’m like, why would I ever keep following up on a passive-aggressive email from someone I’ve never met? And I see that as a sales practice in so many ways, and I’m actually very shocked because it’s counter to getting to know the human. From your perspective, what are some of the pitfalls that you need to avoid? Don’t be a Walking Sales Pitch Carol Parrish:  Well, I think you just hit on one of them right away, not being a walking billboard or sales pitch. I get those same messages too. And, and I love to connect with people, but if they’re just trying to immediately sell me something or it’s obvious that they just sent out 200 messages automatically and didn’t have any interest in relating with me, it’s, I’m not even wasting my time on it. I have also been in conversations with people where they only talk about themselves over and over and over again. And you can’t get a word in edgewise. So I always try to remind myself, that I want to hear them talk, but it’s supposed to be a two-way street, too. Remember Conversations Are a Two-Way Street Jenn DeWall:  So I love you saying that, I just met someone for the first time two weeks ago, we had done maybe three weeks ago. Now we had done this meet and greet. They had asked to connect like, Hey, let’s, let’s just do a 30-minute meeting to get to know each other. And we did the Zoom meeting and I asked a lot of questions and I’m not kidding the entire time. She asked me zero questions about myself. Yeah. And so at the end of it, I was like, I probably will not pursue any further relationship or friendship or working relationship with you because you seem kind of only into it for yourself and who you are. I mean, that’s real talk. Like I just don’t, I don’t love that I’m rubbed the wrong way when people always make it about them or, Hey, let me just fill the space with all the great things about myself I get fatigued and I start to think what are the things on my to-do list right now. Carol Parrish: People love to talk about themselves, I mean I’ll be honest, I’ve been guilty of it too where I realize, you know, I need to shut up. I need to tell myself to be quiet and then ask more questions. And usually like, I’m genuinely interested in getting to know them. And so I, you know, I want to ask questions. But there have definitely been times where, like you just said, it just puts you in such an awkward position too. Jenn DeWall: It’s yeah, no, that’s, I mean, ask a question, ask a question. And if you’re not asking questions, chances are, you’re not engaging in a dialogue or you might just be listening but asking questions. It allows you to do that. I mean, that’s a brilliant piece. You get to actually know them when you ask questions. And if you’re not asking someone questions, you’re not getting to know them, which means you’re not building trust with them. Yeah, Carol Parrish:  <Laugh> for sure. And, and like you said before, especially like in my industry and financial services, people aren’t going to work with you if they don’t trust you, like you talked about how, I mean, nobody wants to talk about money, and half the time they don’t wanna talk about it with people they do trust <laugh>. So you have to like take it even to another level. And it’s not just trust, it’s becoming comfortable. Like people need to feel comfortable talking with you and sharing information. So it’s, it’s easy. Just easier. I should say. I shouldn’t say easy, but to start with, you know, simple questions and prompting them to talk about themselves, but maybe not too much. <Laugh> How To Start a Better Networking Conversation Jenn DeWall:  I’m curious, what’s your take on, you know when you’re going into a networking situation is the first question, you know, tell me what you do? Or do you recommend people to even think about asking them a nonwork-related question? I don’t, and I’m just curious what your take on that is or how you approach that in those settings. Carol Parrish:  That’s a really good question. And I, I feel like in a professional setting, people always say, oh, where are you from? Or what do you do? But I think that’s one thing that in my mind can cause people to be uncomfortable. Yeah. Because they can feel judged, you know, especially if there’s someone that’s insecure about their position or whatnot. I personally like the more casual conversation, but the old, you know, oh, are you enjoying the sunshine today? Kind of that gets really old, fast too. So something creative or, you know, we immediately, like I keep, I talked about the red earlier, but we immediately got on the call and noticed we were both wearing red and that could be like a fun icebreaker, like, oh, where did you get your red? And it’s, it’s just kind of random things. Or if you see somebody that is with a company that you’ve wanted to learn about, or you have a friend that works there, you could, that could be a conversation starter too. Or something about if there’s a speaker, it could be, Hey, I saw so and so’s ready, you know, speaking about blah, blah, blah, today. I’m super excited to hear about them. You know, what made you come today? Kind of thing too. So I’m, you know, eventually people want to get to, you know, what they do and not do, but it’s not always about our jobs and careers. Jenn DeWall:  Well. And especially, I feel like today, and maybe I’m sensitive to this because I’ve heard, especially if you’re looking or if you were furloughed or, you know, temporarily laid off or something, and then you go to a networking event because you want to connect with people. And then that’s the first question. That can be a question that’s very uncomfortable that can put people into, okay, well, I, you know, I was laid off or I’m looking for work, like not, everyone’s gonna feel comfortable saying that and you know what, we’re, we’re more than our jobs anyways, right? Yeah. We’re so much deeper than whatever title or what we’re going to say. So I, I appreciate the perspective of like, you know, we don’t always just have to start with work. It’s a pretty, you know, it’s, it’s not really, sometimes it leads to really exciting conversations, but it’s typically not the, the question that’s like, yeah, well, we’re connecting, we’re having so much fun together right now because it doesn’t necessarily leave space for a two-way dialogue because there’s not necessarily always going to be that common ground in our line of work, but we might have common ground in other capacities of our life. Start with Fun Icebreaker Questions Carol Parrish:  <Laugh> for sure. I, I can think of it, like in several situations where I’ve gotten to know people just some random hobbies of theirs. And, and I just, one of the things I really like is just trying to connect people. It that doesn’t necessarily have to be connecting people that are looking for a job or connecting someone that’s looking for a coach or whatnot. I have, you know, just connected two women who one runs a robotics organization and one helps lead her daughters, like first robotics team, which is totally random, but had I not met both of them and connected them, they never would’ve met. And now they’re having conversations together. So robotics, wasn’t the one woman’s profession. And just, you know, I know so many runners, well, a lot of times the runners wanna get together and go for a run together. Again, it doesn’t have anything to do with work, but they’re building relationships and having other people in their network that they can go to with questions and to bounce ideas off of and things that we don’t always wanna talk to people in our industries either or our company. So having somebody outside of that is just a good thing. Jenn DeWall:  Broadening your perspective. Broadening your view, expanding your opportunities. But I like even thinking like, you know, outside of the workplace find the hobbies, but also think about finding the hobbies inside of the workplace, because it’s sometimes in the workplace, we talk at people as their position, like, hi, Jen, you’re blank. And that they don’t see anything else beyond the position. And <laugh> that, that doesn’t necessarily make me feel connected to you. Like, hi, do you know that I’m a person that’s underneath this spreadsheet? I’m just curious if you know that it’s okay if you don’t. So how do you, Carol Parrish:  Do they have kids? Do they, you know, like to play cornhole? Do they part, you know, where, where do they like to volunteer? Where do, where do they spend their time? You know, what do they like to read? Do they read? Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh>? Yeah. Do they listen to podcasts? Maybe they listen to The Leadership Habit! Carol Parrish:  Do they host their own podcast? <Laugh> I love, are they in a band? Do they karaoke? I mean, there’s so many, we’re so much more than that. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. I love you. Just gave a lot of great icebreaker questions. One of my favorite ones for some reason lately is what’s your favorite karaoke song? Just because I like hearing the diversity and responses. And I think it also shows a funny side right. Of us to be like, oh, that’s your song, no kidding. Or you of course get the, like, I am not going anywhere near that. There’s no way. I mean, what, what is your favorite song, Carol? Do you, do you, karaoke? Carol Parrish:  Actually it’s of karaoke is on the tip of top of my mind right now because I going to karaoke tonight, which is especially on a weeknight is rare, but we’re having a going away party for somebody. And you’re gonna laugh when I tell you my song. I’m not a good singer, but I am very entertaining. It’s Raining Men by The Weather Girls. <Laugh> and it’s a fun one Jenn DeWall:  It’s raining men! <Laugh> Carol Parrish:  Hallelujah! Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> I love it. See, it’s just fun. My favorite one, Michael Jackson, Man in the Mirror. I love it. It’s my go to it makes me so happy! But I fell like people usually have a point of view. Like I had to do it for a party, or I love it, I have a favorite song. Carol Parrish:  You’re not gonna karaoke. You can meet a lot of people randomly who are there just like singing along or hanging out. You don’t have to actually go up on the stage. So my, Jenn DeWall: Yeah! Carol Parrish:  Another place to talk to people! Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> yeah, you can talk about like, I cannot believe they just did that, perhaps to them, that may not be me. Relatability right there with the other person that’s sitting there. Like, I’m not doing it either. Yeah. I mean, that common ground you talked about. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Carol’s Tips for Building Relationships by Networking Jenn DeWall: So let’s talk about your tips. How do you go about building new relationships? It’s incredibly important to your line of work. You’re meeting new people all the time. What’s your kind of like philosophy or framework or practices for how you approach building new relationships. Know Why You Want to Network Carol Parrish: So that’s a, oh, that’s a good question. For me, I feel like some of it just happens organically because I am around people a lot, and like to ask questions. There are other times. And in the past I had to be more intentional about it, where like, for example, if I was going to an event, I went in with like a strategy of, okay, you know, what’s my goal going to this meeting? Is it because I wanna hear the speaker? Do I want to meet three new people that work in X, Y, Z? What is that? And then it, it gave me kind of a framework to, to work the event while I was there. When I’m working, when I’m doing it more organically, it’s the thing is just the two, my two biggest tips are- be yourself, and ask a lot of questions. And yeah, some of the questions might be dumb questions, but it could also, you just never know. Sometimes you could find out a lot about somebody by asking what, what you think is a dumb question. That ends up being a great question, too. It gets the person talking, and people like to talk about themselves. Jenn DeWall:  Well, and I feel like you can preface it with like, Hey, I’m, you know, just learning or I’m not as familiar. I’m gonna ask you a question. It might sound a little silly, but I just honestly don’t know. I think it’s okay to admit that we don’t know. We don’t know. And that’s where we can be curious about asking that. But what do you do if you ask a question and someone gives you like two words? Because I feel like that’s happened to me where you sit there, and you’re like, this is gonna be a long networking event. How do you manage those situations? Carol Parrish: You just turn around and walk away! Just kidding! It’s definitely happened to me before. And I think I’ve probably been the person that’s done that too. And I just try to ask a more open-ended question to try to get a little bit more information, or maybe someone I know is walking by and pulled them into the conversation too. Like, Hey, have you, this is my friend, Jenn. Have you met Bobby? Bobby’s back. You know, you guys both blah, blah, blah. And that could strike up some more conversation and make it a little less awkward too. It could just turn into the, you know, what, you know, have you been here before? Why are you, you know, and then you may get a, I was forced to come and you just, sometimes you just have to dig yourself out or it just doesn’t happen and you move on and it’s water under the bridge. You dunno what that person’s going through either. So yeah, Jenn DeWall:  Maybe just have an exit line, like, Hey, it was so nice to meet you. I hope you enjoy the rest of your time here. You know, I’m gonna go. Carol Parrish:  I’m gonna go grab a drink of water. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. <Laugh> but being yourself, I mean, I’m a pretty extroverted person. I would argue that authenticity is super important to me, but yet I don’t actually attend a lot of networking events in person because of my own fears. Like I do get in the way of like comparing myself or maybe I might know someone in that group and I might know that they’re really successful and really accomplished. And then I can get a little bit of that. Like, am I even supposed to be here? So like, how do you kind of balance or to that line between showing up as your authentic self when you actually really don’t want to? Because you kind of feel like maybe I need to try and be someone I’m not just actually fit in in this place. Get in the Right Mindset Carol Parrish:  I think personally for me, I try to get myself in the right mindset before I walk in the room, like where it could be on my drive to the event. It could be stopping in the bathroom just to have some, you know, peace of mind and clear my head before I go in. And sometimes it may involve a little self talk, you know, it, you know, it works for some people. It may be not so much, you know, not for everybody, but by doing that before you go in and again, knowing why you’re there and what you’re trying to achieve and that everybody else, again, back to that first point I made everybody is in the same boat as us. They’re trying to meet people and have conversations too. So why not be the go between the facilitator to it easier for everybody, Jenn DeWall:  Let’s say that we meet at a networking event and you wanna be your authentic self. You’re excited to maybe have a conversation because we’ve all probably been on the other side where it’s like, maybe you shouldn’t have shared that. So from your perspective, like what do you think is appropriate to share when you’re first meeting someone versus not share? Carol Parrish:  Oh gosh, Jenn DeWall:  You’ve got, I’m sure. You’ve probably heard a lot of stuff where you’re like, <laugh>, Carol Parrish:  I’ve probably said some random things too. Jenn DeWall:  I’ve definitely, Carol Parrish:  Honestly, I, I don’t know that. I don’t think there’s a, I mean, to me, there are some pretty obvious things that I’m not, you know, I wouldn’t even say on here. Yeah. But depending on the audience or what type of event it is, I think that makes a difference. And there’s been times where I’ll be really open, and maybe it’s talking about kid stuff or female stuff or just things because it’s a more open environment, or I feel more of a sense of community. You know, I think some people will say, well, don’t, you know, don’t talk about politics. Don’t talk about religion. Don’t talk about blah, blah, blah. But who, you know, everything’s on the table in my mind, Jenn DeWall:  That one was ingrained to me, like do not, when you were out. And it was my aunt that taught me when I was younger. She said, do not talk about three things when you’re out with people— personal problems, politics, or religion. That was, those three were just ingrained into my brain. But it’s interesting because those are still parts of who we are like, you know, Be Aware of People’s Boundaries Carol Parrish:  And I honestly, I think times have changed too. And it’s some people you talk to, you could have conversations about all three of those things, and they will be totally comfortable. Some people want to have a conversation with someone with differing views because they wanna learn the other person’s perspective. Now for me, I talk about money because that’s what I do. I’m not necessarily saying, oh, I make this much. And oh, I cost this much. But the topic of money for me, of course, is not off the table. Where for others, they may say, you know, my husband for example, is super, super private about anything, money-related. So it just depends on the person. I’m pretty much an open book. So. Jenn DeWall:  They love that, which brings it back to like one of the first things. I think you said, like being curious, asking a lot of questions because, and I, maybe this is a poor example, but I think, you know, I play volleyball on Tuesday nights. We’re a rec league. We’re not that great. We haven’t been for the last seven years. And our friend brought other friends to play on our team and this person much better at volleyball than our whole entire team. Okay. We play on a rec league. So we’re not even kidding ourselves. Like we know where we’re at. This person maybe wanted us to be somewhere different. And she came into all new people, right. New relationships, and then started yelling at people for how they were showing up or how they were lined up on the court. And in my head, I just am like, oh my gosh, like the leadership coach in me was like, you are not even getting curious about the environment that you’re in or the people that are here or, you know, what the dynamic is. Too often, I think people stop. They don’t even think about the intention, what you’re saying. And they don’t even start with curiosity. They just start with, well, this is what I know. And this is what might be right. Without even trying to understand the circumstance or environment. I mean, have you seen that? Like she was not, she didn’t necessarily create the best first impression. Let’s just say that when you kind of lead with that, it took the fun out of it. Carol Parrish:  Yeah. And I think that you bring up a really good point with that and, and it getting kind of back to what topics and things, and with that, you know, maybe she would’ve come in and said, you know, my friend said, you know, this is a rec league, which is great. It sounds like you guys have a lot of fun. I’ve been playing volleyball for 25 years and I could give you guys some pointers if you’d like some, or I can just, we can just play for fun, but like preface it with some sort of question. And the same thing could be used like at a work event where maybe instead of just spilling your guts or something, or maybe I ask you something that might be sort of personal maybe instead of just, oh, tell me this. Maybe it’s, you know, do you mind if I ask blah, blah, blah, or are you comfortable answering blah, blah, blah, where it makes it a little bit more friendly and give, and you’re inviting them to answer, but not necessarily prying too hard. They can opt out per se, Jenn DeWall:  I love that you give that option, like you’re getting their permission before you’re moving into it. Right. Carol Parrish:  That’s a great way to put it Jenn DeWall:  This individual. It was like, I, I don’t even wanna talk to you. I’m gonna talk to my friend about maybe like assessing like the attitudes of others before you bring ’em into our fun rec league. Because we all understand that none of us were sponsored to play any professional sports we had to actually pay to play this. So I need everyone else to understand that before they start maybe criticizing. Carol Parrish: Well it’s, you’re true. It ruins the, it can ruin the whole dynamic and yeah, that is not obviously what we’re going for, but so lessons learned! Jenn DeWall:  Well, and I’m sure you can think of, like, you have been to countless networking events, that person that can zap the energy and fun out of a conversation. Now I feel like that’s the person that’s like, it’s all about me. Lemme tell you about me, got everything about me. I mean, it’s, what other things do you kind of notice that make people shut down in a conversation when that person comes in? Is there anything that comes top of mind for you of like, oh, here they come! Or is it when they keep bringing the conversation back to themselves? Like, let me just make it more about me. Oh, Be Aware of Your Body Language Carol Parrish:  I think both. I think both of those for sure. And sometimes, just the way that people carry themselves can be off putting in my mind too. It’s hard to really describe, but sometimes you just feel it when you see it, like, oh, I got a steer clear of that person. <Laugh> too. Jenn DeWall:  But I think that makes sense, like this month or last month at Crestcom we were talking about leadership presence and you know, it’s a felt presence. You feel it. Yeah. And you know, it’s, I think that kind of ties to it. You can probably sense is this someone that I wanna actually talk with, is this someone that has the hidden agenda? You know, and I mean, I know that people have to go to networking events to hopefully like grow their business and make it happen. But what’s the way that you can even talk about yourself without making it feel like you’re just pushing it all on someone. Carol Parrish:  Well, and I think some of that by you, some of the questions you ask can help get to what you want to say, because a lot of times, like you may ask them a question of, yeah, I’m trying to think of one just off the top of my head, but they may give their answer. And then you, it gives you an opportunity to say, oh yes, I’ve experienced the same thing, except when it happened to me, blah, blah, blah. Or yeah, I have the same question. How do you handle that or when that has happened to you, how do you handle it or where do you go? So it gives you a chance to continue the conversation and kind of answer, get answers to your own question.Or, oh, it’s interesting. You say that that’s something that I just started doing and, and then you can talk about it that way too. You can ask leadign questions, too. I think it comes with practice. Jenn DeWall:  Well, when it comes with what you had said earlier, it’s the preparation, like if you’re going to go about networking or meeting someone new, it’s your preparation in your own foundation of what is your intent? Like, what do you wanna get out of this? How are you going to work together? What do you want that relationship to look like? What is your intent of this and how are you going to measure or assess that or determine whether or not you’re getting it right? Carol Parrish:  Yeah. Measurement’s a good point too. And we have such limited time that if we’re using our time to get to know these people we wanted, you know, let’s make it worthwhile, too. Jenn DeWall:  I mean, it doesn’t always have to be about work. And I feel like half the people I do business with, that part comes after the relationship is formed. It’s not the relationship doesn’t start necessarily because we’re doing business. It’s after working together. Like then I want to invest in that. Networking to Build Relationships Can Happen Anywhere Carol Parrish:  Well, and there’s, I, there I can count on, you know, more than two hands, the number of conventions and conferences and work events that I’ve been to that were good events, but I didn’t really get to having a great conversation with someone until after the cocktail party or the, you know, the bus trip to the football stadium to check it out, or the polling event afterward where people are kicking back a little bit and you can actually have a, a good relaxed conversation. Jenn DeWall: There are so many opportunities that are much more or more available to you than just walking into the room and going into the small two-person group. Yeah. It’s the little things finding it in the day-to-day or when you’re going up to grab a water or grab some food! Carol, I’ve loved our conversation and just like getting back to the basics of how do we, how do we connect? How do we build these relationships? What are, do you have any final thoughts for our audience? I know we have to wrap up what would be like last-minute tips or any final closing remarks that you would have for our audience? Introverts Can Be Great at Networking Too! Carol Parrish:  My one thing we, you and I had talked about before that we hadn’t touched on yet today was that you don’t have to be an extrovert to be good at networking to build relationships. I know a lot of extroverts that aren’t, that aren’t great at at networking actually. And I know a lot of introverts who are very good at it because they’re intentional and they, they know why they’re doing it. And they also try to limit well limit. Maybe isn’t the right word, but they know how much energy they can put into it. And they know when it’s time for them to kind of take a break and step away from it. Some of the best salespeople I know are very good at their job and building relationships, but when they need their downtime, they take their downtime. And again, be authentic– we’ve said multiple times– and ask questions. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. I love the final reminder to the – if you’re an introvert– you can figure this out. You might just want to be a little bit more intentional with it. Like, what are the questions you wanna ask or what are you doing? And extroverts definitely may not be the ones that steal or steal a spotlight all the time. Carol Parrish:  Yeah. Start with one person at a time. You don’t have to meet everyone in the room, just think, okay, I’m gonna go meet one person and have one conversation. Where to Connect with Carol Parrish Jenn DeWall:  Just one conversation that should be everyone’s goal. Just one person, one conversation that is a success. Carol. How can people connect with you? Carol Parrish:  The easiest way to connect with me is on LinkedIn, and it’s literally Carol Parrish or LinkedIn at Carol Parrish, and the website is utorwealth.com. Jenn DeWall:  Carol, thank you so much for giving us your time and your expertise because you have been to more networking events than probably many of us, right? So you have this experience and insights that a lot of us don’t have because we might avoid it. So thank you so much for helping us just get a little bit to Carol Parrish:  Have me Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> it was great to have you. Carol Parrish:  You too. Thank you. Jenn DeWall:  Given the nature of Carol’s role, we do have to share with you this disclosure:  Investment advice is offered through WCG Wealth Advisors, LLC, a Registered Investment Advisor. Utor Wealth LLC is a separate entity from The Wealth Consulting Group and WCG Wealth Advisors, LLC. Utor Wealth LLC, The Wealth Consulting Group, and WCG Wealth Advisors, LLC do not offer tax or legal advice.” WCG-21-0021 Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of a leadership habit podcast. I really like my conversation with Carol Parrish. Just talking about how we can approach these relationships and how we can be more intentional with networking. Now, if you want to connect with Carol, she is offering a free tool download, Hey, everyone deserves to be financially independent at some point, and I’m assuming that’s what you want too. So you can use the link that’s in our show notes as the retirement calculator that you can use to figure out if what you’re doing today is going to help you get to that retirement that you want, which we as leaders do need to be thinking about retirement. It’s not that thing that we need to avoid because it’s going to come up faster than we know it. So if you head on over to UTORwealth.com/#services, that’s where you can find that retirement calculator. Of course, if you know someone that could benefit from this conversation, share the podcast with them, and don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform.   The post Networking to Build Relationships with Carol Parrish, RICP appeared first on Crestcom International.

Creating High-Performing Teams Like a Jazz Band with Gerald J. Leonard Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit, I sat down with Gerald J. Leonard to talk about creating high-performing teams like a jazz band, and his book Workplace Jazz: 9 Steps to Creating High-Performing Agile Project Teams. It was a great conversation with Gerald to talk about what we can learn from performers, from music to help motivate our teams, inspire our teams and help them collaborate greater. Well, let me tell you a little bit, before we go into it about Gerald J. Leonard, Gerald J. Leonard PMP, PFMP and C-IQ coach. And he’s the publishing editor, CEO and founder of the Leonard Productivity Intelligence Institute, as well as the CEO of Turnberry Premiere, a strategic project portfolio management and IT Governance firm based in Washington, DC. He attended Central State University in Ohio, where he received a Bachelor’s in music and later earned a Master’s in music from the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music. Gerald is the author of Culture is the Bass: Seven Steps to High-Performing Teams, which was listed on Entrepreneur Magazine as one of the top 15 books on a business culture that you need to read today. And today, we’re going to be talking about his second book, Workplace Jazz: 9 Steps to Creating High-Performing Agile Project Teams, which was listed on Human Resources Online as one of the top must-read HR books and Gerald’s third book, Symphony of Choices, a business novel, will be released later this year in 2022. But before we go further, here we go– talking about Gerald’s second book, Workplace Jazz, 9 Steps to Creating High-Performing Agile Project Teams. Meet Gerald J. Leonard, Musician, CEO, Author and More Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to be sitting down with Gerald J. Leonard. And today, we’re bringing you a different type of topic. This is going to be a different type of vibe, hopefully, a little bit of a music vibe, because we are talking about Workplace Jazz and to know more about that is first. We have to get to know where that started. And so Gerald, thank you so much for joining us on the show today. And if you could go ahead and introduce yourself to The Leadership Habit audience, who would love to know your story before we really dive in how music has helped you help teams connect better. Gerald J. Leonard:  Excellent. Well, Jenn, thank you so much for having me and for getting together to have this conversation really excited to be here. So how this all started was I was 10 years old. I played piano for a little while. My sister had a guitar, which I was really intrigued with. She didn’t want me to play it. So I would sneak into her room and grab her guitar and play it <laugh> and that’s how this whole thing got started. And so, but- Jenn DeWall:  I have to ask, does she still play? Does she still play? Gerald J. Leonard:  She doesn’t! She realized that she wasn’t gonna play it anymore. And so, but she let me have the guitar and then she let me have it <laugh> How Learning IT was Like Playing an Instrument Gerald J. Leonard:  But you know what that, what happened was I just fell in love with playing the guitar and playing, you know, string instruments. I joined a band later on with some friends of mine and I had to talk about this in my TEDx talk. And one of them was a really good guitar player and the guy could play and I knew I could match what he was doing. So I started playing bass and took, you know, bought me a bass and took lessons. And it was a time when the Lakeland civic center had been built. And so we gotta see all these great bands and I was really inspired and I started taking lessons. And so, so many things that I have done now in my adult life actually came from those initial experiences of playing music, taking lessons, paying for lessons, getting feedback, getting corrected, learning how to play together, learning how to listen. And that led me through college, through my career. I switched careers and got into IT. At a time where if you could spell IT, you could get in. And so and picking up the computer was very much like picking up another instrument. What I didn’t know was how much music was building the mathematical and logical part of my brain. And so once I got into computers, you know, I just read everything I could get my hands on and I just took off. And I did all the certifications. I had my Master’s by that time in music. And I started noticing while I was playing music professionally and working after having kids, I didn’t wanna be on the road all the time. So I decided to do something local in the New York city area. And I started noticing that the same vibe and experience of playing in a great ensemble would happen when I was a consultant being on a great project. To me, it was the same vibe with the team. And so over the years, this whole concept of when I started speaking and things like that and I started looking at writing a book, this whole thing of combining my worlds– because that was just living in both at the same time for most of my life– came together. And so all of my books are, have a musical metaphor because if you can play the radio, you can understand what I’m talking about. And it’s just that straightforward. I try not to be too, you know, a high-level musical from the standpoint that it’s, it’s a music book itself, but it’s just in using the concept of music and what you’ve seen musicians do when you see a music group play or whatever, that these principles come from. Creating High-Performing Teams is Like Creating a Great Jazz Band Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. So your book, Workplace Jazz, has nine principles to developing high-performing teams. When you initially wrote that, who was your envisioned reader? Who did you want to pick up that book? Gerald J. Leonard:  Well, at the time I had a client that I was working for and I had actually written my first book, Culture is the bass with that same client. And you know, we were doing a lot of Agile work. And so I wrote it for project managers. I wrote it for people who led project managers and project manage offices for them to realize that the teams that they were bringing together, that musicians were more like, like, well, not musicians, but the workers were more like artists, right? They were much more like artists because nowadays, people are coming in and they really work hard at being specialized in their skills. So they learn how to practice their skills. But when they come together, the leader needs to be more like a conductor or the band leader, you know, help the group, understand the big intent of the performance and then let everybody use their skills and then show them how to work together. And so it was really written for that group, but it really crosses all, you know, different parts of an organization from the C-suite down to you know, most of the workers in the organization cause a lot of work today is productivity work, automation, AI, and all those things are replacing, you know, the everyday manual labor and manual tasks. And so a lot of the work that’s happening today, it’s really project-related work and Agile type work. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Requiring us to think differently to do differently. And I think it also makes soft skills that much more important, too. Gerald J. Leonard:  It really does <laugh> cause those are the really critical skills that because you can have hard skills and you can be a really good developer, you can be a really good project manager. You can have really a really good writer, but if you stink at these other things, they’re gonna hurt you. If you’re not a good listener, you can be really good at what you’re doing, but you can’t listen to and take back and interpret correctly and learn how to work together and support others. That it’s all about teamwork. And it’s the team that makes things happen. Even though you can have great individual performance, it’s really the team. And that’s what it’s, that’s what Workplace Jazz is all about is creating high-performing teams. The way you would have a high-performing jazz band or orchestra, Jenn DeWall:  We’re essentially helping you design your band. This is our fun time to envision, maybe look at our situation a little bit differently. Yes. And figure out what else we could apply. But before we dive into your book, I really want to talk about because in our pre-call I know you and I had talked about this, the neuroscience of music. Yeah. Who, why in the heck should we even use music? And actually, no, I asked this because I’m not sure if you’re seeing this in your world, but in my world right now I am hearing burnout, burnout, burnout, overwhelm, overwhelm, overwhelm, and music to me has always been something that’s helped to shift my mindset. And, but you know, more of it from really that true standpoint, the neuroscience. Can we talk a little bit about what that even means to someone that might be like, I have no idea. I’ve never heard someone say the expression, the neuroscience The Neuroscience of High-Performing Teams Gerald J. Leonard:  Of music, right? The neuroscience of music is that basically, you know it’s, it’s, it’s around us all the time when you’re studying, you know, you think about when you studied in college or when you studied in high school or you studied a lot of times they’ll put calming music on. They may even put Mozart some music that’s very common because our brains are like a big OS you know, like a big machine that oscillates with the frequencies around it. And so if you’ve ever seen two clocks that are like waving together and they’re like an opposite direction and pretty soon there’s a dominant clock and everything starts moving the same direction. That’s because of physics. And so our brains are impacted by music from a physical, our, our physics, our physiological standpoint in which that our, our, our cells, our neurons are all working together and music plays a big part of that. And here’s why this it’s so important to me to share this story because of an experience I had later in life around 2018, I had a, I think we talked about this in my pre call, had a major battle with vertigo and the vertigo wiped out. What’s called the vestibular system. I was impacted my right inner ear nerve by 86%, which meant I only had 14% capability in my right inner ear nerve. When I went to the ear-nose-and-throat doctor, he told me based off he did the, all the measurements, he, he said, I’m surprised you can even hear, you’ve been that impacted. But he says, I noticed you walked into the office, unassisted. He goes, what have you been doing? I said, well, I have a TEDx talk, I’m getting ready to do. And I’ve been practicing my bass. I’ve been practicing music. And I realized that after I started practicing bass, because music impacts the brain in such a way that it starts vibrating the brain. And if there’s blockages the brain figures out how to use other neural networks to work around the blockage and repair itself. So he says, oh, you’ve already been doing your therapy. I said, okay. Yep. I’ll keep practicing. And I said, I’ll get ready to do my TedX talk in three weeks. After having coming home from the hospital with a walker, not being able to walk. And six weeks after that event, I was on stage in Delaware delivering my TEDx talk. I rewrote a little bit of the speech. I rewrote the song that I wrote. I actually recorded with the art with a producer who worked with Washington and works with Gerald Beasley now. And it’s on iTunes called Vertigo, the song I wrote. And I love, you know, that tune, and what it means to me, it’s all about possibilities, but it’s the impact. And so in my talk, my, my TedX talk was about what if practice is the performance, the neuroscience of music. And I share different quotes about that neuro about the neuroscience and how the brain is activated because of music. And I was a kind of a walking billboard for that experience. And I still have, I don’t call it a disability. I call it a constraint. I still have a constraint with my vestibular system, but it forced me to figure out how to do more with less. And so it’s actually made me more productive, without having to do all the traveling and everything else that I’ve been doing before. I am more, probably a lot more productive now than I was before the incident because of the, because of understanding the neuroscience of, of music and how it’s impacted my brain. Jenn DeWall:  I love that music, you know, starting your life earlier on getting excited, engaging with music then became the thing that saved you down the line. Like that is a pretty powerful story of knowing what became of stealing your sister’s guitar. <Laugh> turned into, this is the thing that’s actually going to help me learn to walk again. Yeah. And I think it’s important to share your story as you know, one of hope I think of knowing that, of how we can potentially leverage or how we can use things. But, you know, again, that there’s our own determination, our own willingness, that can also help our ability to be resilient and to persevere and to rebuild, even when I’m sure when coming back from that hospital and feeling like I have a TedX talk in three weeks and I am not walking in the same ability like that, would’ve been so easy to just say, all right, cancel it. I, you know, we’re not gonna do it. There’s no way. And I just have to focus on this if it even happens again. Gerald J. Leonard:  Exactly. And what was really interesting is my doctor told me that if I had not been a musician, it would’ve taken me two years to get back on my feet. And that was the impact of music and, you know, but here’s the interesting part of the concept and went, and I wrote the book workplace jazz after that incident. And I, because I was so moved by the power of music and it, that you don’t have to be a musician to experience all the benefits. I think it’s what I, the way I write the book and what I shared in the book is really understanding the principles behind the way musicians operate individually and, and collectively, you know, I started off talking about, you know, the improved principle, right? Jenn DeWall:  Yeah! Let’s, dive into the principles. Yeah. Because you, the book has nine principles Gerald J. Leonard:  And I’ll just hit on a couple of them. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Yeah. We’re gonna hit on a few and I’m curious, what do you want them to be able to do as a result? We’re gonna talk about a few. We’re not giving away everything. You can check out the book. But what do you want that reader to be able to do as a result of hearing these principles? What Leaders Can Learn from Great Musicians Gerald J. Leonard:  I want people’s minds to, to be opened up to, to the various possibilities of what they can learn from watching their favorite performers. Whether it’s,you know, Steely Dan or whether it’s Michael Jackson, when he was alive and whoever it was just, okay, he has this skill, but you know, I have the ability to have some of the same attributes. I may not be able to sing like him, but I can have the same joy and same attributes if I learn some of these principles, but I can also build really great teams, teams that really work well together and perform well together. Because the way I look at is when I’m working with my client, I look at audience, most of the time I’m talking to the people in the front row. I always keep in mind as a performer, that there are people in the balcony and in the back row. And those are people that are not in the room with me. And so when I’m, when I’m designing a performance, I have to perform for those in the front row. But I also have to make sure that the people in the back row have a positive experience. Too many times as you know, project managers or technical people or people in business, we don’t think that way. We just think we got the person in front of us. We deal with their issues. And then we implement the project and it fails because we don’t get buy-in from the audience, or we don’t get buy-in from the people in the balcony and the back. But if you come into it thinking as a musician of, okay, I’m getting ready to deliver a performance. And I have, you know, the cheap seats and I have the expensive seats, right. And I have the green room seats. High-performing Teams Play to the Whole Room Gerald J. Leonard:  Well, if I consider everyone as a stakeholder and really consider those people in the back, because at the end of the day, they’re the ones who are gonna be doing the heavy lifting and really living with the solution, the product, the service, updated the process of whatever you’re gonna be delivering, and they’re going to either kill it or embrace it. And if you perform it in a way and roll it out in a way that they can embrace it, then they’re going to establish it. And they’re going to pick it up and run with it because they see the benefit for them. And so I really want people to walk away from this book, getting these concepts and for each one of them, I talk about the neuroscience because I want ’em to realize that it’s more than just, you know, a skill that you were born with. It’s actually something that we can develop. It’s actually something that we can learn and that our, that every one of us have the brain that can, can can activate and, and leverage these skills. Jenn DeWall:  See, now you’re making me feel like, and maybe this is because I’ve always wanted to be a performer. So now this is my opportunity to look at life as if I am on that stage. And I think you made a very important distinction and I liked, I like the metaphor of thinking about it, you know, as if you’re playing to your audience, it’s not just the front row, it’s the people in the balcony. It’s the people in the green room. I mean, if I was at a concert and I felt that, you know, I just was at a concert on Saturday. It was so fun to finally go back and see a live show. But if I felt, because I was not front row and if I felt like they weren’t directing addressing me in the middle, that would make me so frustrated. Exactly. And so, Hey, for right now, think about what it takes to wow. Your audience. And we’ll do that by talking about Workplace Jazz, the nine principles to developing high-performing teams. Now, Gerald, one of the principles that we, you, we had talked about in the pre-call from the book was improvement. Yes. Improvement, improvement, improvement. What does that mean? High-performing Teams Improve Through Practice Gerald J. Leonard:  Right. It means practicing. It means deliberate practicing. It means becoming, you know, getting on a journey of mastery in your skill, whether you’re a writer, whether you are a speaker, whether you are an analyst, whether you are a developer, it means practicing. It means practicing with a purpose and it means deliberate practice. So here’s what I mean. When I started playing music you know, I got to a point where I could play and I could listen to something and I could play by ear. But to do some of the things that I was hearing other musicians, especially when I got into jazz and classical do, I was like, I don’t have those skills. So I had to go and find a teacher. Now I was the youngest of six back in the sixties, seventies, I’m giving away my age, but which is fine, but <laugh>, but the interesting thing was I had to go do chores and mow lawns and do other things to make money, to go find a teacher, to pay the teacher, to teach me how to get better. Jenn DeWall:  Wow. That is a lot of determination for someone when you’re young, right? Gerald J. Leonard:  I’m 12, 13 years old. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Gerald J. Leonard:  And so that, so what I learned from that was I found a really good bass teacher who really gave me a lot of techniques and skills and, and ways of thinking. And it made me better. I never forgot that lesson. So I’ve always, throughout my entire career, have had a coach, had a mentor, had someone that I went into my pocket and paid good money to, to help me learn how to get better. And because of that, you know, I’m the CEO of two companies. I have one of the highest certifications in project management. I’m working on my third book. I’ve been interviewed by Jack Canfield. In fact, Jack and Patty are my coaches Dr. Paul Shelly from learning strategies that who deals with whole brain learning and neuroscience is one of my coaches. And so I still have a team of coaches that I work with now. So it’s, so once you improve and you get to that point where you’re really good at what you do, guess what? When you walk into the meeting or the concert, you forget everything that you just learned. And here’s why, and here’s why, because do you think of squirrel running across the wire is thinking about, oh, let me do this. No, he just runs across the wire! Because once you’ve practiced it, you’ve embedded it into your cerebellum and, and you just know it, you, you know how to play that note, you know how to play that style. So now the goal is how can I play it in such a way that makes the team better? So if I’m a leader and I’ve, and I I’m reading all the John Maxwell books and I’m working on leadership and I’m getting mentored as a leader. When I go into the meeting, I forget about everything that I’ve just learned. And I go now, how can I take what I’ve learned and how I’m responding and focus on the larger performance and focus on my teammates? How do I leave my ego at the door? Any great music musical group, they’re gonna be, they’re gonna leave their ego at the door and they’re gonna focus on the song, who’s going to solo. How can make it sound good? Jenn DeWall:  Love? You know, if you’re, I love the, you know, there’s the designation of what someone is going to do in a band, but then there’s, how can I, that collective interest? How can I support you and your betterment, but let’s go back to improvement because, you know, it’s that piece of being willing to invest, but where do you think people are really missing that mark? Because I think there’s that, you know, from my perspective, we’re both like at, you know, coaches, sometimes people are like, I don’t know if I need a coach. Why do I need a coach? And so they’re a little reluctant to see the value of maybe having that other person. So when you think about improvement, whether it’s a coach, whether it’s a mentor, whether it’s some other support system, why do we need that? And where do you think that resistance comes from? High-performing Teams LOVE Feedback Gerald J. Leonard:  I think it comes from a lack of understanding of the value, right? Yeah. I wrote an article for my website and I actually wrote another article with a similar title for PM World 360, which is an online magazine set up the second online magazine for project management. And the title was The Highest Paid People in the World Love Feedback. And I list like 10 athletes that over a period of time made about 6 billion. Jenn DeWall:  Wow. Gerald J. Leonard:  And it was like, well, why did they make, why did they make 6 billion? Because they love feedback. Because even at the elite level, they still had a coach. Cause they knew if I could just reduce my put or my golf by a couple of strokes, I’d win the masters. Or if I could shoot and be a little bit more accurate in my basketball, I would win the championship. Or if I could drive the car a little bit straighter, or if I could hit the guy this way, I would, I would win the golden glove. They knew that they had to improve by inches. And most of us, when we get, we finish high school, college, our master’s, we feel like we’ve arrived educationally. We may read a book a year if we’re lucky and we’re just kind of going through and getting, because now we’re like we’re done. And not realizing that to really get the marrow, the greatest things outta life. It’s that continuous improvement in pushing yourself towards mastery, that you really gain the benefit. And so when you don’t understand the value that that’s gonna bring to your life and the freedom, because when you’re an expert. When you become an expert of experts of experts, then you get all your time back because now people will put you on retainer just to have access to your knowledge and wisdom. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. That’s and that’s pretty powerful right there. I mean, to have that, and you’re touching on like that next principle of willingness for feedback, which, you know, I don’t know why when you were talking. I think about when I started my coaching practice and because it goes back to ego, right? Understanding that what we know today may not be what’s relevant today or in the future. And I’m gonna say this and anyone listening might actually laugh at me, but I remember building website 10 years ago and the mobile version was a little not great. And I remember putting out a message on social being like, do I really need to care if there’s a mobile page? <Laugh> And so many people were like, yes, yes, yes, yes. But this is still a time when people actually weren’t most of the time was still spent on coaching pages through a desktop platform. But I can’t tell you a how glad I am for that feedback. B how happy I am that I’m not trying to prove that I’m the smartest, because I would’ve missed one of the most obvious things had I held on to what I thought I knew in that moment, but can we talk about ego because what happens in a jazz band or in any band when someone has too much ego? The Chemical Reaction that Creates High-Performing Teams Gerald J. Leonard:  Well, well more likely what happens is one, they don’t invite the guy back. <Laugh> Two, the audience can tell because the performance stinks because you know, you can’t play music and have an attitude with the other performers because music more than just being a mechanical operation of getting all the notes right. And playing in tune, it’s a spiritual connection. It’s a, it’s an emotional-relational connection. And if you enjoy the people that you work with and you’re friends with the people on stage that you’re working with and you like them, it’s going to come through, it’s gonna be emotional. It’s gonna be engaging. It’s gonna connect. You’re gonna connect at a much higher level. You’re gonna connect at a spiritual level. Here’s something I learned about the neuroscience of, of, of speaking. And which is in my assessment, is the same thing as the neuroscience of music. And I did a certification in neuroscience with Dr. She wrote the book. I just, her name just went outta my head. She wrote the book, Conversational Intelligence, Dr. Judith Glaser, She passed away a couple years ago from cancer. But I did for two years, I did a certification. So I read everything that she wrote. I read tons of white papers and go through the process, write papers and stuff like that for the certification. But one thing she says is when we start a conversation within 0.07 seconds, there’s a chemical reaction between our brains, whether we are co-located in the same room or we’re virtual and we’re across the world. You know, within 0.07 seconds. If you’re going to enjoy that conversation. Jenn DeWall:  Wait, it’s that fast? Gerald J. Leonard:  It’s that fast! It’s a chemical reaction! Jenn DeWall:  Like, I’ve heard something like,–Okay. You’re blowing my mind right now, Gerald. Because I can’t remember who had brought this up, but I remember it in speaking that, you know, your audience will determine within the first three seconds, whether or not they wanna actually listen to the leader, but it’s actually faster than that? Gerald J. Leonard:  It’s even faster than that! Jenn DeWall:  And It’s chemical. That’s what you’re telling me/ Gerald J. Leonard:  Because most of our conversations and most of our experiences are chemical reactions. We’re having a great conversation right now. We’re enjoying our conversation. If they put us on a scanner to scan our neurochemical reaction, they’re gonna find that both of our brains are producing serotonin, dopamine, oxytocin, and endorphins which are like, they feel good drugs where you feel like, man, I really enjoyed that. I like that conversation. This was fun. Well, what made it fun? It was the, well, it was the experience. Well, what was, what gave you that experience? It was the neurochemicals of that positive neurochemical that, that you experience. It’s the same reason when you get a phone call. And as soon as you hear the person’s voice, your neck tenses up because it’s like, oh, I was dreading this call. So what, why did that happen? Because your body starts producing cortisol and adrenaline. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh Gerald J. Leonard:  And all of your, you know, the blood is moving in the wrong direction and, and your body’s getting tense and you feel it. And it turns out to be a horrible phone call, are you? It was uncomfortable. Or the meeting was uncomfortable. And we as leaders have the ability to control that. Because if we understand the neuroscience of conversations, we understand the neuroscience of music. We know we can do things to come into a meeting and create fun, joy, you know, a great atmosphere which will then start producing in everyone who’s participating this brain oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, and they’re away a great experience saying this is great company. This is a great meeting. I love working this place. I I’m a great time. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. If anyone is watching this on video, they probably just see my mouth open. <Laugh> <laugh> like, I don’t know why, you know, I never thought about it like that, really thinking, you know, and when you said it, right, someone calls you and if you think it’s gonna be, you anticipate that. Or even sometimes for me, it could be seeing someone’s name in my email. It’s like, oh my gosh, I don’t wanna open this. I don’t even know. And it might not even be anything, but it does initially set off that stress or, you know, the stress response, the anticipation, the anxiety. And then sometimes I, you know, don’t even look at it for a little bit because I’m telling myself it’s gonna be maybe worse than what it is. Exactly but my mind is blown right now, Gerald, with what you’re sharing, because even thinking about that, that reaction that I just had to a comment to take that back to the workplace. And if you’re a leader and thinking you want your team to be motivated, heck you have to be very mindful of this instant, like chemical reaction that occurs. And I know we’re gonna go back to the book, but I’m curious. Do you have any tips for them on how to maybe make sure they’re starting their meeting in the right course to be able to invite them conversation? Gerald J. Leonard:  I actually have a whole section in the book that talks about it and, and talk and has exercises and something that I’ve done in different meetings that can really pull your team together. Even when you pull a team together and you’re thinking, ah, this is gonna be kinda rough. Okay. Lemme do this exercise and get everybody on the same page. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Okay. Like because that’s, you know, I think that’s just one of the places we forget. We forget that we’re talking to humans that actually wanna know what’s my time worth. Are you telling me it now. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. What do Corporate Cultures Get Wrong About Feedback? Jenn DeWall:  But going back to the, the principle of willingness for feedback, because I’ve interviewed quite a different, you know, quite a few different guests on the, on the podcast, but there’s still one area, I’m gonna call it maybe an industry that I think is much better at hearing feedback than any other area. And those are typically people that have a musical or performance background for them. It’s kind of like with feedback, that’s just part of the job. But yet when you get into the corporate cultures, you walk through those door feedback, it becomes this thing that we avoid. We’re afraid of it. Why do you think it is? Why do you think that maybe performers have been able to have a better relationship with feedback than maybe the traditional like corporate or small business employee? Gerald J. Leonard:  Because, as a performer, whether it’s the, the visual arts or, you know, writing or whatever, the musical arts, singing– feedback is how do you get better? Because you know, Willie Jolly, who’s a top speaker in the world with the national speaker association, he, he would say to me, if you’re in the frame, you can’t see the picture. If I’m sitting in the frame as a part of the picture, I can’t then go outside and see the picture because I’m in the picture. So there’s so I naturally have blind spots. So if I really wanna see what I look like, I gotta take a picture. I have someone take a picture, or someone tell me because I can’t see it myself. And as a musician, as an artist, as someone who’s who, who has a found a craft that they love, they wanna get better at, who are willing to hire a coach or a teacher. You desire, you wanna know what you’re doing wrong. And you wanna know because you don’t wanna keep practicing something that’s wrong because then you, that, that practicing makes it permanent. Gerald J. Leonard:  So if I’m practicing something wrong and I’m making it permanent, I’m permanently gonna be playing it wrong. But if I learning I’m open to feedback and I figure out how to play it. Right. And I practice now I’m practicing it correctly. I permanently make it correct. But the only way I can do that is through feedback. And so, you know, that’s why as a kid, I learned to go earn money, find a teacher, pay for lessons and say, tell me what I’m doing wrong. I wanted to hear, I wanted you to tell me, how do I do this? Because I wanted to get better. And once I started learning that and I started seeing myself improve, the ego went away. It was like, okay, you know, I don’t care what it looks like, tell me what I’m doing, because I know if I figure it out and I get told what I’m doing wrong and I I’m showing how to do it right. Then I’m gonna be able to practice it correctly the first time and not embed it in wrong. And then you have to relearn it. And I think what happens is because if you’re not in one of those fields or are, are, have picked up a hobby like that, and you haven’t learned that internal lesson, then you think I always have to be right. Because in corporation and corporate’s like, well, you know, if you are given feedback and you’re making a mistake, that’s bad. Well, I must have been. And so you always think you have to do it perfectly and that’s impossible. Jenn DeWall:  Wait, so then you’re, what’s, what’s the musical, if you what’s a performer’s response to that. If, you know, knowing that perfection is rampant in so many workers, how, how did you as a musician or a performer ever get over? You know, that perfection may not always exist. Like how do you get over that to get up the courage to perform? Because you’re human, you know, mistakes are gonna happen. What if Practice is the Performance? Gerald J. Leonard:  No, you, you realize that, that and again, that’s kind of, why did my TEDx on practice is the performance is that, you know, how you practice is how you perform. And, and it’s not that when you see a professional and it looks flawless, it’s not that they haven’t made a mistake. And at their standard, I’m sure they’ve done some things. They’re like, oh, that was wrong. I did that bad. But, but they’re, they they’ve practiced and embedded the best practices so much in their subconscious that it looks flawless to us, but they’ve learned, okay, that’s just a part of the process. And so they, they’ve learned to practice to a point where they know it’s never gonna be a hundred percent. It’s not gonna be perfection, but it’s gonna be the best that I can give. And so you learn to one, not beat yourself up over that, but you also learn to practice to the point where you can’t get it wrong. And if you get it wrong, you’re able recover so quickly that the folks out in the audience don’t even know that you made a mistake. Jenn DeWall:  And I think that’s, you know, I love that you’re driving home that piece because a lot of people, I don’t think realize the role that practice plays, and why you’re seeing what you’re seeing. We assume that somehow they took a magic, you know, pill that brought them to success without the, you know, the resilience, the dedication, the one step at a time, the consistent and continuous rehearsal. I know in your work and my work, all it is is for me, for you, I’m sure like preparation, constant practice. And because I wanna make sure I do a good job. And that means that I gotta own my stuff. Right. But yet some people are like 10, Hey, that seems so natural. I’m like, I’m not superhuman. I just practice. You know, when you bring that – Gerald J. Leonard:  It seems natural because you’ve been, you’ve practiced it and worked on it so much that it’s just a part of who you are now. Jenn DeWall:  And I still goof up <laugh>. Gerald J. Leonard:  And the part about it is, is that you, we accept the fact that we’re never gonna deliver a hundred percent perfect performance, but we also enjoy the process. Because, you know, when I, one of the things I talk about my TedX talk and I talk about a couple of books is that as a musician, you are spending 95% of your time practicing, even as professional musician. Let’s say you are, you are in a professional orchestra and you’re playing, let’s say eight or nine concerts a week. When you take how much time that is compared to how much time you have to do everything else and sleep and live and so on in practice or whatever, you’re spending only 5% of your time on stage. Jenn DeWall:  Wow. Gerald J. Leonard:  The rest of the time that you spend is all practice. Preparation and practice, after practice or practicing. The rest of the time, you’re only gonna be on stage 5% actually in the performance and those, those eight rehearsals or whatever, only four or five will be actual performances, the rest will be rehearsals. So you’re still practicing. So the whole idea is that if you don’t fall in love with the craft and the idea of practice and getting better, then you’re gonna be miserable because if you make a mistake in the performance, oh, I wasn’t, I’m no good I’m this and that. And you beat yourself up. And you, we lose the joy of why do we even start this in the first place? Jenn DeWall:  Yes. The joy piece, right? That the joy takes away. Well, and I think we can, and even coming back with a lot of performers, feedback is so beaten, not beaten in, but like just it’s in the standard part of doing that’s the line of business. Gerald J. Leonard:  Exactly. What do Artists Know About Negative Feedback that We Don’t? Jenn DeWall:  And understanding if we could just take that rule and say, this is what leadership is. It’s not perfection. I don’t know. Who’s taught you that it’s perfect, but you’re in the business of people and we’re all way too complex for someone to find a one-size like perfect thing without, you know, continuously new actions, new experiences, engaging, making mistakes! As a musician, what if someone came up, because I know some people there’s a greater again, sensitivity in some workplaces because of that reluctance or kind of avoidance around feedback. Right? So what happens Gerald, when maybe you do get the feedback that isn’t what you wanted it to be, what, how do you advise people to, you know, find a way to create meaning or to still be willing to feedback, to receive feedback, even though they might wanna shut down and close off for the future. Gerald J. Leonard:  I remember listening to a program from a gentleman named Steve Scott and he gave a great example of how to, how to take feedback. He says, the way you need to take feedback is just imagine you are walking on the beach and someone walks up to you and splashes you with a cold bucket of water that he just got from the ocean. It’s salty, it’s cold. You know, if it got in your eye, it’s gonna sting, you know, but you know, but once you kind of get over the shock of that, you look in the bucket and you start looking around and you find a couple pieces of gold, or you find a piece of jewelry that, that, and it’s, and it’s actually really, really valuable. He goes, that’s the mindset we have to take feedback with. When we get feedback professionally, when you get feedback, it feels like somebody threw a bucket of cold water in your face that is salty. Yeah. Right. And if you don’t close your eyes fast enough, its stings and it stings for a couple days, it’s stings for an hour or two, your, your egos hurt. I mean, it really hurts. But if you take that bucket that they used and look into what they were saying or what they recommended, you’re gonna find some goal. That’s gonna change your life. And that’s gonna be the thing I remember being. I remember when I was in college, I did my master’s and I was actually sick. I remember having a call and I was working with my bass teacher. His name was Frank Proto, who was the bassist for Cincinnati Symphony. And I came in and I played this, this, I don’t remember what it was, but I played this piece, this classical piece for him. And he stopped and he just started yelling at me. I’m like, dude, I’m sick. He goes, you know, do you think you’re not gonna be sick if you play in a professional symphony, do you think I not, I don’t get on stage in every single concert. Everything’s perfect. He goes, I don’t care if you, if you come in here to perform, then you come in here and perform. I never forgot the lesson. Jenn DeWall:  I think that’s a really powerful lesson! Gerald J. Leonard:  You’re, you know, at that level, it doesn’t matter if you’re sick or whatever. You’re paid to come in as a professional and perform. And that’s what I had. That’s what I needed to do. And I’ve never CA I never came back into one of his lessons, not being prepared, no matter. I mean, I could have been like, you know, flew a whole nine yard shivering. It’s like, no, we’re gonna give it everything we got. The Importance of Positivity Jenn DeWall:  Oh gosh. Picture of, all of us showed up that way. Like, Hey, I’m just gonna still commit to it. Not just being a warm body, I’m actually gonna commit to being part of the creation. So we talked about two of the principles so far our need for our own improvement and our ability to be willing to receive the feedback, but that might bring us into, you know, our own positivity. What did you mean by thinking about it through that lens? Gerald J. Leonard:  Well, the whole idea behind positivity again, is, you know, I think in my book for the positivity, I talk about some research that was done with students who do math. And had two groups of students. And one group did really well at math and the other group didn’t do so good at math. And they measured just their positivity and the neurochemicals. And the one group that was doing well they were very positive about doing math. The other group didn’t like it. So they were very negative about it. So they could tell the different chemicals that were being transpired, right? The either the adrenaline or the dopamine serotonin or the positive chemicals. And then, so the, the kids who didn’t like it thought that the kids who loved it were natural at it. So what they, when they did the research and interviewed them, they hated it just as much as the other kids! Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> Gerald J. Leonard:  Except they just decided, you know, I’m gonna have to learn how to do this. So I’m gonna embrace math. I’m gonna go back home and I’m gonna practice my homework. I’m gonna do the homework. Then I’m gonna rip up my answers and I’m gonna do it again. And I’m gonna do it until I, okay. Now I got it. Okay. Okay. Now I I’m getting, oh, I got this. So now they go to take the test. It’s like, oh, I got this, but they’ve rehearsed it, they’ve practiced it, they’ve really worked on it. And the kids who didn’t, they, well, they didn’t. And so it was still hard for them. And so they just thought that the kids that were good at it and were positive about it, that they were doing it because they were just naturals. And it wasn’t the case. Gerald J. Leonard:  They were good at it, and they had a positive attitude about it because they worked at it and they developed that skill. And, and again, I think it goes back to the principle of positivity of that skill, and I call it a skill. Because again, if you, in, in the conversation of intelligence, the neuroscience, we have something called up-regulationg and down-regulating. Up-regulating is positive. Hey, I’m encouraging you. I’m with you. Let’s go, you know, I’m on your side. Down-regulating is I can’t stand it, you get on my nerves. Oh, you know, I, I can’t wait to get outta here. And we had these conversations in our heads. So again, imagine going to a concert and the musicians are sitting on stage and they’re going and looking at the other musicians going, and I can’t wait to get outta here. I can’t stand these guys. Why am I doing this? I mean, just that conversation alone, what kinda concert do you think you’re going? Do you think you’re gonna enjoy concert? Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. I think I’d walk out probably before they even started. Gerald J. Leonard:  <Laugh>. Cause, because you know, like something’s not right here. The notes are correct. The timing’s correct, but there’s something off. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Gerald J. Leonard:  But if you go to another concert where these guys, Hey man, I can’t, I can’t wait to be here. I’ve been thinking about this all day. I, I can’t, you know, I’m excited to hear your solo. They’re just there. They’re, up-regulating, they’re positive. Well, that’s gonna become infectious across the group and they’re gonna perform like that. They’re gonna enjoy themselves and you’re gonna walk out. You’re gonna enjoy yourself. It’s gonna be a transformative, emotional musical experience. And it’s simply the only thing that was different was their attitude. Jenn DeWall:  And so how do you get someone? Because we know, especially right now, you know, burnout iss again, rearing its ugly head, it’s going to be real easy. I’m sure in many different team environments or organizations for people to feel really burnt out, right? Negative. There might be layoffs coming as a result of, you know, the economy and global changes. So what tips or techniques do you have to be able to manage and maintain positivity when stuff is just not going well? High-Performing Teams Need Leaders to Model, Coach & Care Gerald J. Leonard:  As a team leader, you should be focused on three things. And that is to model, to coach, and to care, if you model the, if you say, okay, this is how I want my teams to perform, this is a level I want to perform at. Well, then you have to come in performing at that level. So then you give them a model. And when you give them a model, you have neurosciences gonna kick in again, it’s called mirror neurons. We all have mirror neurons. If I smile and I’m like, you know, or I start laughing most like likely somebody else will smile or I start laughing or they’ll like, they they’ll just cheer up. Right? Why? Because you are seeing me and instinctively without even thinking about it, you start smiling. It’s like walking, it’s like walking down the grocery store and someone sees you that you catch each other’s eye and they smile. What do you do? You don’t, you don’t frown back at them. Unless you there’s something else going on. If it’s natural, you’re gonna smile back. You like, Hey, good to see you too. Right? Right. Well, that’s the mirror neurons. That’s how animals learn from their moms. And, and, and, and how the pups learn from the, from their moms to, to, to do the things that they need to do. It’s mirror neuros. We have it’s, it’s like at the lowest level of being a human being. So if I model what I’m looking for my team to do or be, then I give them something to look at and mimic. And then I coach. So instead of dictating, pushing, punishing, or pulling, I coach them, I ask them a lot of questions. I get them to think about it because now they’re seeing my example. They’re seeing I’m leading the way by just modeling, not trying to lead, but just modeling for them. What I, the behavior and the standards that I want within the organization are, are, are how I want things to go. But then as I’m coaching, I also then care. Because maybe there’s, there’s something going on with them. And they’re having a hard time modeling or being coached because they got some family issues or someone just passed away or something else has happened to them. Or they’re dealing with this challenge. But by getting in and doing all three, I’m giving them example, I’m coaching them along as to follow that example. And then I’m getting even deeper to care about them. And so again, you have a way to, to actually execute on how do I create a positive environment. And one of the exercises I talk about in my book around this area is called the rules of engagement. And it’s something I picked up from the conversational intelligence. And it was a way of getting a team together and identifying each of those core values and realizing how many of those core values are much more alike than different. And I did that with a team. And when we were done, they realized that they were so much more alike than different and it changed the entire project. Yeah. Because now everybody came in going, wow, I know you, Jenn DeWall:  I see you. Gerald J. Leonard:  I exactly, I see you. I know you, you know, you’re like me, we, we value the same things. And so there was this, the walls, whatever walls were there just dropped and then dopamine seratonin and all that stuff starts flowing. And the teams are like, oh, you know how you doing, man? Okay. Wake up. It, it gets all emotional. Everybody’s all happy. Then let’s go up to dinner, let’s go do this. Let’s go do that. And they start hanging out on the weekends together and it works. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Well, and the opposite of that, you know, that mirroring effect it’s if you’re modeling a very negative attitude or maybe a really short way like, cause I sometimes watched leaders. I’m like, you’ve gotta be kidding me that you talk to your team like that. Sure. Gerald J. Leonard:  And, and the team models that Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Then they just do it to each other. Gerald J. Leonard:  Exactly because of mirror neurons, Jenn DeWall:  That’s, you know, and I I’ve heard of it. I think as, as it’s called entrainment tour tendency to entrain to someone else, if we’re not being mindful of how we’re showing up, then we entrain to someone else at that, maybe subconscious level that, and I guess maybe it would be authority or the person that’s speaking the most or blank, but we all do it. We just may not realize that we do it. Gerald J. Leonard:  Exactly. Jenn DeWall:  I mean, see, and I wish so many people knew that because it’s, it’s not so much of, no, it is. It’s everything so much of how your team shows up is a reflection of how you show up! Gerald J. Leonard:  Exactly. Like exactly. So if you want your organization to be learning and growing and excited about the mission, then they need to see you learning and growing and excited about the mission and then coaching them to become likewise and then caring for them. If they’re struggling with that. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Well, I, oh gosh, I’m sad that we have to wrap up our podcast. We’ve only talked about three, but I mean, things that have stood to me, right? Like looking at your workplace as a performance, this is your opportunity to be a rock star. Gerald J. Leonard:  Exactly. Where to Learn More from Gerald J. Leonard Jenn DeWall:  But then understanding that it’s all about continuous improvement and being open to feedback and walking the walk, like being positive, setting a precedent. And, but I know that we were gonna talk about a few others, but this is where everyone’s gonna have to go and pick up a book nine or Workplace Jazz: 9 Steps to Creating High-Performing Agile Project Teams, Gerald I’ll say Gerald J. Leonard as your full name in case you’re going to Google. How do people get in touch with you? Gerald J. Leonard:  Well, they come to one of my new websites, an online magazine I started a couple years ago, and it’s called Productivity Intelligence Institute. And there you’ll find a store. You’ll find books. You’ll find my interview with Jack Canfield, an endorsement with Dr. Paul R. Scheele and a bunch of things that I’m doing. And I’m publishing articles on there on a weekly basis around the topics of, you know, becoming productive intellectually, you know, basically just how do you use your whole brain to become more productive, where you’re less stressed out, getting more done and you’re enjoying life, because you’re working the way we were designed and created to work and really enjoying the process. Jenn DeWall:  My gosh, this is you are the last or the only person I’ve ever said that told me that I can be a rockstar today. I know you didn’t say it in those words. I just, I heard what I wanted to hear. <Laugh> that’s, Gerald J. Leonard:  That’s exactly what Jenn DeWall:  I that’s finally my chance. No Gerald. And I know that they can go over and check you out the productivity intelligence Institute. I know you’re also gonna be coming up with a third book, but I just wanna say, thank you. Thank you so much for, I mean, you caused most drop moments so many times by talking about understanding the neuroscience of how we communicate and how music can play with that. Thank you so much for sharing your time and expertise with The Leadership Habit audience. We are so grateful to have you. Gerald J. Leonard:  I’m grateful to be here and thank you for asking me to be here. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation, share this with your friends, and help them learn different ways that they can approach leadership. And of course, if you want to connect with Gerald J. Leonard, you can head on over to https://productivityintelligenceinstitute.com/ . There you can connect with him. You can find other valuable resources that he has. And if you found that you love this episode, don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service until next time.   The post Creating High-Performing Teams Like a Jazz Band with Gerald J. Leonard appeared first on Crestcom International.

Communicate and Connect Through Story with Richard Newman, Founder of Body Talk Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And in this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Richard Newman to talk about how to lift yourself and others through story. Now, I just wrapped up this podcast, and I am so energized by the things that Richard has shared. He is such a wealth of knowledge as it relates back to communication and connecting with others. I hope that you have the exact same experience after you listen to it. But let me tell you a little bit more about Richard. Richard is the founder of Body Talk. Over the past 22 years, his team has trained over 120,000 business leaders around the world to improve their communication and impact, including one client who gained over 1 billion— that’s a billion with a B— in new business in just one year using the strategies that Richard teaches. Now, I hope you enjoy our conversation as Richard and I talk about and discuss the mechanics of story and how to lift yourself and others through story. Enjoy! Meet Richard Newman, Founder of Body Talk Jenn DeWall:  Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to welcome Richard Newman to the podcast. Today, we are going to be talking about what I think is really important right now. How to lift yourself– yourself– hear that leaders, you and others through story. Richard, welcome to the show. We’re so happy to have you! Richard, tell me about yourself. I have to ask the origin questions. I love them. Tell me how you came to be. Tell our audience who you are because you actually have a really, really cool starting story is how you entered the business, but please share with us how you came to be. Richard Newman: Yeah, thanks, Jenn. I appreciate it. And it’s good to be here. Yeah, so my, my origin story, I mean, there’s, there’s a really long version and sort of a shorter version, but I’ll give you the key elements. So I’m 44 at the moment. My journey to where I am has really been the last 40 years. So what happened was when I was four years old, I was at school sort of at the pre-kindergarten age. And I was enjoying it. I had friends, and everything was fine. And then my parents moved house just before my fifth birthday. And I can remember feeling excited about the idea of going to this new school and meeting new friends. And I was even, I, my first vivid memory in life is being in this classroom age, sort of four and three quarters looking around thinking, wow, this is exciting to be here. And then my next memory of that day is it’s a few hours later, and I’m sitting at this tiny little kids’ table on those tiny little chairs, and I’m trying to speak to the other kids next to me. And I’m getting no response. Speak to one child, nothing. Speak to another child, nothing. And I could see them all getting on with each other. I just wasn’t able to connect. I was like, come on. But nobody would connect. And so I felt like I was somehow disconnected from others, living in a glass bubble and did what many children might do if they were sort of feeling alone at that age and just burst into tears and thought, I don’t understand why I can’t connect with people. And that sort of feeling would go on for a long time of seeing people make friendships and build relationships. And I was missing something. There seemed to be something in the way for me. And it was around about when I was 16 years old, a friend of mine gave me a book on body language, and I read it, and I thought, this is it. This is what I’ve been missing in my life! Jenn DeWall: Can we – before you go on because most 16-year-olds are not getting a copy of a body language book from their friends. Can we say that? <Laugh> Richard Newman:  Yeah, yeah, that’s true. That’s true. This was a friend of mine. Like she sort of gave it to me meaningfully, saying, you really need to read this because you’re not good at this. So here’s your birthday present. Jenn DeWall:  I love that, though. Like, I love your curiosity at 16 to be like, you know what? This is different than maybe a comic book. I’m trying to think of what, you know, you might have read at that time, but I love your curiosity at such a young age to think that, huh. Body language. Okay. All right, continue on. I just had to comment cause I was that, that interaction I’ve never observed between 16-year-olds before A Journey of Self-Improvement Leads to a Tibetan Monastery Richard Newman: <Laugh> yeah, well, you know, I mean, it was, it was so fascinating, and it was so I mean, something so unexpected for me to sort of reading and, and then suddenly be fascinated by that since then, I’ve been fascinated with personal development books and nonfiction books, learning, whatever I can. And I developed this fascination for it and thought, well, maybe this is an area that I could improve. And then, between then and sort of 10 years later, I read about 200 books on the subject of communication. But in between times to sort of take my communication to the next level, when I was 18, a lot of my friends were going off to university to do things, and I didn’t want to do that. I wanted to do something to make the world better in some way. And so I managed to get myself an opportunity to go and live in the foothills of the Himalayas, where I was living in a Tibetan monastery, teaching English to Tibetan monks. And the big challenge was that when I got there, I knocked on the front door of this monastery, and I met these monks who didn’t speak a single word of English. And I thought I’d gone there to sort of improve their English and didn’t realize, okay, you speak Tibetan, Nepali and Hindi. And I speak a bit of French and a bit of German, but I’ve got no language to communicate with you in. And I then had to figure out, okay, how do you communicate when there are no words to do it? And so I lived with them for six months, and I was doing lessons for them in the kitchen often during a blackout using candlelights. And I managed to figure out that there is a way for us to connect with other people and to communicate through body language and tone of voice. And by the end of the six months, they could then speak a good conversation in English. I learned how to speak Nepali by the by, when I was there. And I just came back mesmerized by this ability, that is, it’s sort of deeper understanding of it than most people have. So most people might have seen, you know, glossy magazines or TV shows that talk about if you scratch your head, it means you’re lying. If you fold your arms, it means you’re defensive. And that’s a really superficial level of pieces that that may or may not mean those things. And so I found this deeper respect for body language, came back to the UK and then studied acting for three years. I was really learning how to sit, how to stand, and how to breathe in a way that would have an impact on other people on stage. Understanding His Early Struggle to Communicate and Connect Richard Newman:  And again, it was very physical, very much about the nonverbal came outta there, fascinated by this, kept on studying it started my company to teach other people communication. And you know, here we are, 22 years after I started my company, and we’ve trained 120,000 people worldwide in this area. But to sort of complete the origin story, it was only a few months ago that I realized what the challenge was for me in the early days, as I’ve just recently been diagnosed with high-functioning autism. An autism diagnosis normally says, look, you are gonna have a challenge with communication. You’re not gonna get there. Most people are called neurotypical. They’re good at communication. If you’ve got high-functioning autism, it means that you’ll struggle to communicate with others. And you know, people sometimes come up to me now when I’m a keynote speaker at a conference, and there are a thousand people there, and I’m loving being there with them. And I, I sometimes get people coming up saying, Hey, you are a natural at this, but I never will be, you know, any advice. And I like saying to them, I’m not a natural. This is built from the ground up. And if I can do it, every person listening to this podcast can absolutely do it. You just need to know where you are and what’s missing and practice it enough to make it part of who you are so that then you can go and put it all into action. Jenn DeWall: This is me being more speechless right now. <Laugh> not delaying intentionally. Well, actually, yeah. Intentionally delaying because to get a diagnosis like that later in life, I mean, how did you begin to process that? Was that initially like, you know, going into the place of, whoa, should I be doing what I’m doing? Or was it, did you go to that place of, wow, I’m really proud of how I didn’t even realize, but I actually pushed through, and I defied the odds. What was that experience? Like if that’s okay if I ask you about that, because yeah, yeah. It’s, I feel like there’s a lot of self-identity that’s wrapped into when we get a diagnosis. It’s, you know, we get to attach the meaning that it means to us and how we let it, you know, shape us. Richard Newman: Yeah. I, I think you know, for me, there’s been a bit of a journey on this. It was about, I think, I wanna say like six or seven years ago that friends of ours who were planning on having children, they had autism in their family, and they were doing a test just to see, like, is this likely to be passed to our kids? And they said to us at a dinner like, oh, you guys can do it. You can go online, and you can take this test. And it’s like 80 questions. And you find out, you know, where you are, what propensity you have in this direction. And the highest you could score was 50. And that meant you are definitely neurotypical. And they all scored around 45. And I took the same quiz, and I scored five out of 50. And I thought, oh, this is, this must be a joke. This is a hoax. Like they’re, they’re playing a game on me. I’m clearly not autistic. Because my view of autism was from back in the 1980s, the only thing that you’d get as someone being diagnosed autistic was really severe autism. That’s the only thing it included. And it was around 2010 that they really expanded what’s included in the diagnosis to where, you know, Asperger’s is included and various other things. And high-functioning is a sort of colloquial term that people have on this where the official diagnosis is an autism spectrum disorder. But high-functioning means you have the ability of speech. You have an IQ over 70 because some people with autism don’t have those things. But yeah, initially, there was total denial on my part. I thought I was sure that I was not. Then I did a podcast interview with a lady who specializes in early-stage communication. And she’s dealing with, you know, five or six-year-olds. And after the podcast, I said, look, I’ve gotta ask you this. I think that there might be some challenges I’m having. Because she’d said that there’s 90% of people. They will always be able to communicate fine. Two and a half percent will have a permanent challenge, like permanent hearing loss. And then there’s seven and a half percent that may have some kind of struggle that they need to deal with. And I said I think I’m in that group. And we talked about it as I drove her back to the railway station after we did the interview. And she said, yeah, I think you’re in that group. You, you should look at this. And so it was a period of than I, I went to a lady who is the number one expert in her country. She’d been leading autism diagnosis for 30 or 35 years. And we did this sort of long process to diagnosis. And when I eventually got it, there were a couple of thoughts that went through my mind. The first piece was just unraveling years of my life, thinking, oh, that’s why this happened. And oh, that explains this. And what about, oh, now I understand myself here. So there was that part, there was also a sense of a bit of vulnerability thinking what, like, what does this mean? Does this mean there’s something wrong with me? And then after that came, as you suggested, there just a sense of sort of pride in thinking. I actually now understand why I’ve been effective at teaching people communication. Because if you think about it this way, if you say to someone who’s been chauffeur driven everywhere, they go in their life, teach me how to drive. They just say, I don’t, I don’t know, you get in the car and you arrive somewhere. I don’t know. Whereas if you ask someone who has had to learn from the ground up, like these are what the pedals are for. This is what the cogs do. This is how you fill up the tank. This is how you do all those pieces. And you say, teach me how to drive. They, they understand because they’ve had to learn every single piece. And same goes for me. If a client comes to me and they’re sort of saying, I don’t know what’s going wrong, I’m getting a bad reaction. I can watch them speaking for five minutes and say, it’s this, this is the piece that’s missing. And I know that because I’ve had to build that part for myself and it’s in all these books and we’ve got our own study that, that we published in the journal of psychology that shows you, these are the pieces that you need and that’s the one you’re missing. So it’s actually enabled me to have a different lens on life. And I’d say to anybody, who’s got this diagnosis or something similar that you might relate to, that it’s no point seeing it as a restriction on who you are. It’s actually giving you a unique perspective that you can bring to the game. And so I’d really encourage organizations to think, to have neurodiversity in your workforce because if people see things differently, they’re gonna bring something in that nobody else can see. And that’s what it’s been like for me. Neurodiversity is an Advantage in the Workplace Jenn DeWall:  I love that like finishing point and thank you so much for sharing that story. But recognizing that neurodiversity is a huge advantage because we can’t, we all see things from our own unique perspective. And the more that we try to replicate one person’s unique perspective, the further we get away from innovation, you know, all of the things, right? We heard this on the podcast, but I just appreciate your perspective and really driving home. Why neurodiversity on a team and in an organization is so powerful and also explaining and giving. And hopefully, if someone’s listening right now that maybe recently had a diagnosis, whether it’s on autism or something else, recognizing that, you know, there’s the natural journey of how we can process that diagnosis. But then there’s this turning point where maybe there is a point of recognition of pride of saying, wow, I’m really proud of myself for what I’ve done. So hopefully, this is a point where they can see themselves in that positive light. And thank you for opening the door for that, Richard. I appreciate it. Richard Newman:  You’re welcome. Jenn DeWall:  So now we’re gonna talk about, I mean, I feel like it was a perfect example of how to lift yourself and others with story. I mean, was, I don’t even know. We didn’t plan that— to the audience— but that was an example of thinking about, you know, we all get dealt certain cards, and not all of them are easy. Everyone has a struggle, and you know, how do we want to rise? How do we want to use that? How can we use the power of the story? So why is storytelling important? Ket’s level set. Because I think there are still some people that might look at storytelling, I guess from my perspective, it might be, I don’t have time to tell you a story or even think of a story. I don’t even know a story. Why would I say that? And I got to get to this next meeting. So who really cares? But let’s level set and talk about it. I mean, that is a perfect example. Hopefully to level set us into like how storytelling can help us connect with one another, but why is storytelling important? Why is Storytelling Important? Richard Newman: Yeah. So, so storytelling, this is something that’s been a, really a buzzword around business for say 10 years, at least everyone’s talking about it. And the challenge about it is that so many people talk about it. And a lot of people think that they’re doing it, but they’re actually not doing it. There are a lot of theories out there about it, but they are so theoretical that it’s hard for anyone to put them into action. And I had the privilege of interviewing at one point Robert McKee, who’s seen as the godfather of screenwriting in Hollywood and 60 of his students have gone on to win academy awards or rather his students have won 60 academy awards, I should say. And so he really knows what he’s doing there. And he puts it like this. He says, if you go and watch an orchestra play a piece of music, you wouldn’t come away thinking, do you know what? I bet I could? I bet I could design a perfect orchestration of music. But the funny thing is with storytelling that people think, okay, yeah, I’ve heard stories. I’ve been listening to stories since I was a child. So, therefore, I can clearly immediately design the perfect story. So there, there are skills to be learned there that people need. It’s not just about— importantly, it’s not about telling an anecdote. It’s not about telling people what happened on your weekend or finding a historical message that will serve your next meeting. This is what storytelling is. Storytelling is the way the brain wants to receive information. That’s it. And if you think about the three major areas of the brain that we need to light up, you’ve got the survival mind, the emotional mind and the logical mind. And if you tell someone a story, it lights up those three areas in that order. And that’s how the brain wants to receive information. So going back to, you know, thousands of years– Jenn DeWall: Can I ask a quick clarifying question on that? So Crestcom has a class that we talk about the power of storytelling, and sometimes the pushback that we get is maybe from someone that has a more analytical brain, that might be like, well, I don’t, the story might be too confusing. That’s too much time. I wanna get to the facts here. What would you like if the foundation is that storytelling is the way that the brain wants to hear information? What would you say to the analytical in the room? That’s like, no, I want you to just focus on giving me that short data point, why I’m doing this and let’s move on. Connect Through Story to Overcome “Screen Fatigue” Richard Newman:  Yeah, you, you get, you get a lot of people who say, wait, wait, wait, we should just do it this way. So, so here’s a really simple way to understand why that’s not going to work. If you think about the last couple of years, how many people have you heard that have said they are suffering from screen fatigue too much time in front of a screen, like Zoom meeting fatigue, Teams fatigue, like so many people say, oh, I’ve got this screen fatigue. I can’t bear it. But here’s what they do. They get to the end of the day, and they close down their laptop. They’re so tired of being in front of a screen. They go into their living room, they switch on Netflix, and they’re then watching TV for the next three hours. It’s not screen fatigue. This idea of screen fatigue is not there. What it is is severe cognitive fatigue from experiencing death by PowerPoint on a laptop. And so what’s happened is that we used to be in these meetings. We’d walk out and go, oh, death by PowerPoint, severe cognitive fatigue from facts, data, graphs, analysis, and people that have two cups of coffee and go into the next meeting of severe cognitive fatigue. Because someone’s just saying, right. Here are loads of facts with no sense of a journey them. And so diving in straight to the facts is demolishing your message. A and so if you go in that direction, you’re gonna spend time preparing the meeting. And you’re gonna find that a week later, people don’t remember anything that you said. Whereas if you go in from the concept of a story, all this means is that essentially you’re going in with big picture details and actions. That’s where you want to think of this. If that makes it easy. And when we teach students this, we share with them a system where we say, look, by the time you get good at this, you could spend two minutes before your next meeting creating the story. And you’ve got something that’s concise, it’s easy to follow. And it’s really memorable. And what you’re aiming to do is, first of all, light up that survival mind, let people know why they’re in the room. How is this gonna affect the greatest challenges that they’re dealing with right now? Jenn DeWall:  I love this connection that you’re breaking down. So for those that are following, and you’re thinking this through. So you talked about the three areas of the brain before I interrupted you with my curiosity question. So the first area of the brain that it hits is the survival brain. And so it’s tough. That’s answering the why for them. I just, I love this. Okay. I’m in. I’ve got my coffee. I’ll be quiet now. Richard Newman:  Great, great. So yeah, it’s giving them a sense of a why, which is not speaking about your problems or what you want to talk about, which is where most people go wrong. Like they, they open up their notebook or their laptop, and they think, what do I want to say? And immediately, you’re in the wrong direction. A meeting is never about what you want to say. A meeting is about figuring out what this person’s concern is? What are their challenges? What do they care about right now? And how do I connect my information to this? Because if you can’t, they’re not going to remember. They’re unlikely to care or to keep on listening. So you’ve got to connect it to that. The second thing you need to do, for anyone listening, thinking to themselves, Yeah, I do that. I go into meetings. I talk about the challenges, to begin with. Here’s what people do next. They say, okay, look, I understand you’ve got challenges. Here is my solution. And instantly, they’re going into the cognitive fatigue mode because they’ve jumped beyond the story. That’s not storytelling. That’s just telling if you do that sort of thing, saying, here’s a challenge here. Here’s the solution. That’s not how stories work. So if you look at any story, just turn on a movie this weekend, and you’ll find that you start off, you, you figure out who the main person is, what their life is like. And you notice they’ve got challenges that they are struggling in their relationship or money or in their career or something like this, or maybe the planet is under some severe challenge. <Laugh> right. So, so we go into this sci-fi pieces. And then the next thing that happens is not the solution- deadly boring f that happens. The next thing we see is a brighter future, where you get that sense of like, this is what you could gain. If you keep on listening to this story, watching this movie, reading this book, by the end of it, this wonderful thing may happen. You generally get that in the first 10 pages of a book, maybe a bit more, certainly the first 10 pages of a movie script, that’s where you’re going to get. And if you can do that in the first 30 seconds of a meeting, you’ve got people where you say, look, I understand you’ve got these concerns by the end of this meeting, or by the end of the next six months, what if we could achieve this? And they’re in, they understand the survival mind says you’re gonna help me avoid pain. The emotional mind says you’re gonna help me gain pleasure. I’m listening. And I now know why I’m listening. Then you hit them with facts. And then the logical mind is lit up and understands what it needs to be listening to. Even to the point where if you look at Daniel Kahneman’s book, which is Thinking Fast and Slow, what he describes in this great work, he sort of says that the emotional mind gives a memo to the logical mind and says, this is what I care about. Pay attention and give me stuff that is logical, that backs up what I already am feeling. Compelling Stories Connect to 3 Parts of the Mind – Survival, Emotion and Logic Jenn DeWall:  That, that right there, I think is I’ve never, I’m loving this conversation. I can go on for five hours. Because I feel like I have so many questions for you. But I feel like I just wanna stop to say to a leader to think like it is passing a memo. Like, so think about your audience, the people that are listening to it. I guess the one piece of advice I heard, and you can discount it, but it helps me level set that the audience, like you have a three-second timeframe. And I know it’s not, it’s probably, you know, longer than that, but to tell them why to care. Otherwise, they’re like back to your thinking about, you know, what they have to do that day, their task. But I love the concept or that just that visual of thinking about like, no, the second that you actually pull them in, they send the memo that says, okay, I wanna listen. It’s like, you need to give them the memo to their brain to pass on to their brain, to like check in. Okay. Keep going. I’m sorry, I love it- that might be the trainer in me that like keeps like level setting, like anchoring some of these activities and actions just because I think they’re so important. Richard Newman: Yeah. Yeah. So, so instead of being in a situation where, you know, the logical brain’s thinking, I don’t know, this is like just a missive fact. I don’t know why it’s relevant. I don’t know why I should care. I’m really trying to pay attention. The logical mind has been set up to a point where it goes, I know why I’m here. I know what I’m looking for. I can analyze the data better. I can remember more of it because I can put it immediately into the big-picture context of what it’s all about. And once you get to the end of that, what a story also does, if it’s effective, it lets you know how to start the journey. It says, look, these are challenges. This is a better future. This is a fact you need to know. Here’s the first step of the journey. And if you do that with people, you can do it. I mean, if you just watch a commercial, you’ll see them do it in 30 seconds flat! Where you’ll see somebody who’s having a challenge right now and things are going badly, and they sense a better future. You learn some science about the product that they’re using. And at the end, they say buy yours today. And they do it in 30 seconds. So you can do it in a meeting. You can do it in a boardroom meeting. If someone says, Hey Bob, what’s your view on this? You can come out with it in this direction rather than saying, well, fact A, fact B, and fact C, which is deadly boring. Instead, you can give it this sense of big-picture context, then details, then action. In a way that everyone in the room will listen and really care about your ideas. So to think about it this way, I’m sure everyone can relate to that is listening to this. Think about it, have you ever been in a situation where you shared an idea in a meeting, and everybody said no. No, I’m not really interested. And 20 minutes later, Jim shares the same idea, and everyone goes, Jim, that’s a great idea. Why didn’t anybody say that? And you’re sitting there thinking what was wrong when I said it. And the challenge is that if you just dive in and you go, here’s the idea, here’s my facts straight out of context. People don’t understand it or why they should care about it. Whereas it’s possible that when Jim has got around to saying his version, they’ve got that sense of really what they’re looking for. And they’re able to tune in and make a decision on it. Jenn DeWall: Setting the stage, setting the stage. And that’s a, I mean, yeah, I think that people most often just go to perform instead of setting the stage and the importance of that, because I’m sure that there are a lot of people that are like, they took my idea. They thought theirs was so great, but really it was that you didn’t set the stage. I think that’s a valuable point of why preparation is so important. And you said it earlier, it could be two minutes before a meeting. You’re not saying that you know, of course, you can spend more time, and you can really flush this out depending on what you’re doing. But if you are short on time, you can think in two minutes, you know, how can you connect this for them? What is the big picture? What is in it for them? I love that! A Message From Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own a Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Jenn DeWall: So where people miss the mark, I know obviously is data by just like starting with data or, you know, just diving into it. Are there any other ways that people miss the mark? Is this where we start to then think about even the body language aspect of that or– Richard Newman: Yeah Jenn DeWall: Yeah. Let’s, let’s go into it. Communication and the Power of Threes Richard Newman:  There there are a few other pieces. So, so firstly, you sometimes get people in a meeting who say hi to everyone. I wanna talk you through my 15-step plan. And by the time they get to step six, you’re thinking, I just, I can’t remember this. It’s like a conveyor belt of information. There’s no way for me to pay attention <laugh> to this. So we’re very frequently talking to people about the rule of three saying, look, you might have 27 things you need to share. That’s okay. Just see if you can find a way to box it into three major themes or three major areas. Because again, the human brain thinks 1, 2, 3 loads, and it just gets lost in the information. So storytelling, you know, does this all the time. That’s Jenn DeWall:  Like the practice that I got is like, I got it from a leader that I’d worked with that I– here’s a news flash– I got it from a leader that I worked with that I didn’t even love that. Well, but here that just says that every person is your teacher and your student. He always said to me, like do everything in three. Don’t do more. Otherwise, they’re gonna tune out. <Laugh> Richard Newman:  You can see this on the news as well. If you tune into, you know, your favorite news channel this evening, then you can see that the news anchor starts off the show and says tonight’s main headlines, and they give you three. They don’t give you seven because you just get lost. They go; here’s three. And there’s, there are thousands of things that have happened today around the world. They could have reported. They say here’s three. They then guide you through those three. And at the end of the show, they say to recap, tonight’s main headlines are these three things. So using that in very serious situations, but you know, just to give people confidence on, on this in putting it into action, there was a lady who came through storytelling training that we were doing. And we worked with her for about maybe an hour on this, something like that, going through this grid system we teach. And she said, before we did any coaching, she said, I’m really sorry. I have to go. And she came back 30 minutes later, and she said, it works! Like it actually works. And it’s that fast. And we said, where have you been? And she said, well, I’ve been I’ve just been doing this conference call with my team, and I speak to them every Friday, and there are 20 people, and they’re based in different locations and we’ve been disagreeing with each other for the last six weeks on what it is we should do to move forward. And I kept on sharing my idea, and nobody was interested. And she said, before I went on this call, I only had two minutes. I grabbed a piece of paper that I found in the corridor and jotted down my idea, using your storytelling system. And everyone agreed in 15 minutes. It’s the same idea I’ve shared for the last six weeks. So that’s the power of understanding how to do this. The power of story is not like going into fiction, make-believe, telling dramatic events from your life or your story. It’s just getting that. When you share information, you need to do it in a way that the brain wants to receive it. Jenn DeWall:  So it’s not necessarily, from your perspective, it’s not necessarily taking, you know, the story of resilience that you’ve heard of. Like, I don’t even know who to pick right now in resilience. Because I don’t wanna alienate any of our audience, but let’s say there was an in a public figure that fell from grace and then they’re working to rebuild. Like you don’t necessarily have to share this outward-facing story. It’s just taking your internal story of your team and your struggle like right now, you know, we have all been struggling with capacity issues and resource issues, and we’ve had to take on a lot, and I know that you’re burnt out, but what we’re working towards with this new system is to be able to at least free up, you know, your time. So you can go back to that 40-hour work week. Is it that? Did I do an okay story there? Connect Through Story by Addressing the Audience’s Concerns First Richard Newman:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I’m really keen to get that across because some bit times people think, okay, Richard, storytelling, that’s nice. But what I need to do next week is to share my spreadsheet with the leadership team. So, you know, so I’m not saying what you should do is go in there and say hello, leadership team. There’s a story about the industry coming from the 1850s, where there was a farmer called Bob. Like you don’t have to do that instead. You just need to know the angle that you gotta go into the brain to make it pay attention. It doesn’t have to be some, you know, great story, some epic that you go through. It’s literally thinking, okay, if I break down this information, how do I make sure they care? What are their concerns at the beginning? Where are they aiming to get to in the future? How do I take them on a journey that helps them get there? And how do I break it into three major pieces? And when you start to do that, when you understand how to do it, we’ve actually got a company. We worked on a major telecoms company where we got, first of all, their insights team was about 50 people dealing with data from around the company. And they said we’ve got all this data. We don’t know how to help people make decisions. And we said, well, turn all of it into stories of information. And then they actually went so far as to send every email that they sent to each other using the storytelling system. And they said, this is ridiculous. It’s made us so much more efficient because before we open the email, we know what it’s about and what we need to do. We get in there, and we get all the information we need in the right order. And then we, we respond and we can get through 80 emails an hour. Whereas previously, we’d be reading an email thinking, was I just copied in, do I need to actually do something here? Like, what is this email even about? And you get lost. So, you can use this every single day for different types of communication. You have email, phone calls, and meetings. So don’t wait for when you get invited to do a Ted talk to tell a nice story like this is something you need to do in your Monday morning meetings and in the document that you’re writing on Tuesday. Jenn DeWall:  So is, are there times when you would say like, don’t do story where you’re like, you know, is that when you’re like mind the time be mindful of that? Is this really like, do you have any things on like, these are the times that I actually would say don’t use the story, but, but it sounds like actually, you can use it. It’s just that you can adjust to the time of it, the, or the duration and maybe the details of it. I don’t know. What’s your take on like how to flex story? Richard Newman:  The thing is if someone asks you a simple question, like where would you like to go for lunch today? You, you don’t say, look, here’s, here’s the concern when I was in school… <Inaudible> <laugh> you can’t go into that. You can just say I’d like Chinese, <laugh> go into that piece. So if it’s a direct question like that, but if somebody comes up to you in the corridor and they say you know, Hey what, what are your views on this client? Then that’s a place where if you want to, you can get, you can have a place of influence. And if you just say my view is X, they could walk away going, oh, I don’t really understand that. And why would he say that? And that’s a bit abrupt. I don’t think I like him anymore. Like all sorts of things happen. Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh>, that’s exactly what could happen. Richard Newman:  <Laugh> right. Or you could take 30 seconds and frame it in the context of big-picture details, actions, avoiding pain, gaining pleasure, or going on a journey. And when you get good at this sort of thing, then you know, you can start to do it immediately in different situations. So it doesn’t have to take time. In fact, what we found with our clients is it massively reduces time where normally they’d be spending hours every month creating PowerPoint slides filled with bullet points that no one is ever going to remember. Most people won’t read half the bullet points that are put on there to begin with. And then they, they think actually I’ll use story. I don’t need 90% of those slides. I can put it like this. Everybody understands. Everyone remembers. And so, yeah, I’m really pleased the efficiency this brings in for people it’s not more work, it’s actually less. Jenn DeWall:  Well. And I wanna, I wanna add on two things, like I, again, I could have a five-hour conversation or longer than that. Probably you’re like, Jenn, I’ve gotta walk my dog, anything to get outta this. What are the elements? Because I, I heard you just kind of say like pleasure and pain. Would that be considered an element of that story as it relates to them? Like, you know, how the elements of the struggle is that what that would be or the mechanics of that? Connect the Story to Your Audience Richard Newman:  Yes. So, so a key point actually for, for people to understand as well. And this is something that so many people get wrong is who is the hero of the story? Every story has a hero that has heroes challenges and the hero has goals. And the hero goes on a journey from their challenges towards their goals. Most people in, in day to day work, they tend to think of themselves as the hero of the story, which is understandable because every person is the hero at the center of their own life experience. They have challenges, they have goals. So does everybody. But when you go into a meeting, every person in that meeting is the hero at the center of their own life experience. They have challenges, and they have goals. So if you go in talking about you, your challenges, your goals, they’re just not gonna get it. So instead, you have to go in positioning the conversation, understanding that whoever you’re speaking to is the center of the information, the center of the story. And if you can do that, then suddenly they will go with you on this journey because they know why it relates to them. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. It’s well, and it’s just that reminder again that people don’t really care what you say. If you don’t invite them into your conversation. I also appreciate that you and I can joke about maybe what people are thinking during the meeting. And people do want you to like succeed, but like what people might be thinking of like, oh gosh, I’m tuning out now. I can’t do this. And so let’s tune into body language too, because I think that even if there are some people that can explain that, I know that I can be impacted based on I’m gonna describe it as how I can see their ego show up through their body language. Like, cuz I can be very easily influenced by, I guess the perception that someone is kind of like pushing out this like I’m better than you like stuff. Yeah. Right. And then I’m actually less than glad to even listen to any words that come out of their mouth. Is it okay if I ask you some quick, you know, those nonverbal communications, things that could you, that we have to pay attention to when we’re telling the story? How Body Language Helps or Hurts Communication Richard Newman:  Sure. Yeah. So, we published a study on this actually to figure out, is there a universal way of improving yourself as a storyteller, improving yourself as a communicator? And I’d looked at so many books on this, and by this point that we did the study, we’d already trained tens of thousands of people. We wanted to get a validated study. We spent 18 months on this. We worked with the university college of London who are sort of world renowned for their research in this area. And eventually, we came up with this study, we believe is the largest of its kind where we found out that if you change a couple of key aspects of your body language, you can say the same words. You can wear the same clothes, but you just change a couple of key things. If you go from the most common habits, you see people doing day-to-day across to what we found was more effective. You can increase how good a leader people think you are by 44%. What, which you’re saying the same words, you’re the same person. And you can increase that by 44%. We also found this. We haven’t been able to attest it with a presidential candidate yet, but we found from the study that you can increase the chances of people voting for you in an election by 59%, just going from common habits people have day to day to what were the most effective styles. And so and so that there are simple pieces that people can do. So, so firstly, to come back to your point, Jenn, where you were saying about someone puffing up their chest, sometimes people think, okay, I’m gonna have good body language. I will take the stage in this situation. If we feel like it is disingenuous. If we feel like it is faked in some way, it’s a massive put-off. If we feel like the person is putting themselves above us in some way, puffing out their chest, taking up sort of spreading across the room or the desk or the area too much. That then again, it puts us off. It strikes us as arrogant. What actually works best is–if you think about it like this, most people think that they are just being themselves when they communicate. And actually, they’re not. If you hear someone saying, Hey, don’t, don’t change me. Don’t change who I am. I’m just being myself. Actually, they’re not being themselves. They’re being all the habits that they have built up in their life since they were a child that they are now using every day. And that feels like them. It feels like their identity. But in, within those habits, they’re very often doing things that are going to disengage people from listening to them. Working with Gravity to Find Your Gravitas Richard Newman:  So a really common one just to give you would be, if someone’s standing at the front of the room, you’ll so often see this and, and you know, you come across so many people who say, yeah, that’s me where if they’re speaking to a group, they’ll just start to sort of sway from one hip to the next, moving, shifting their weight across from one foot to the other side and back and forth when they’re speaking. And they’ll say to you, oh, I do this because it makes me feel comfortable. And the challenge is, if you do it for more than about 30 seconds, it becomes like this pendulum effect going back and forth and people start to feel very sleepy. So it’s no good for that reason. But also what you’re doing is if you’re leaning just off to one side, whether you’re sitting down or standing up, gravity is pulling you off balance and you look like a pushover, which is this term of somebody being sort of weak in their opinions. And so imagine doing that, if you’re speaking to your team and you’re leaning to one side or you’re shifting your weight from one foot to the other, and you’re saying, Hey everybody, I really need you to cancel your plans tomorrow night because we’ve got a big deadline coming up. They’ll think, okay, I hear you. I heard the words, but you look like a pushover, so I’m not gonna do it. Cause I don’t think I really have to. And suddenly, they dismiss your words. What you actually need to do is get rid of all these habits, these sort of comforting habits that come up and get back to how you were born to speak and how you’re born to speak is that when you initially stood up as a child, you can see this with one-year-olds. What they do. I’ve got a couple of kids. So I’ve seen this in real time. When they’re about one year old, they try and stand up. And if they stand up with their feet too wide apart, they fall over. If they stand up with their feet together, they fall over. If they stand up, leaning on one hip, they fall over. But eventually they work out. If I stand up in a way where I’m about shoulder width, parts, I’m equally balanced between light left foot, right foot, toes, and heels. Gravity is now on my side and I can stand and I can be centered. And if I puff my chest out, I fall over. If I slouch back, I fall over, but I can be in this position where gravity is with me. And this is where people get that term gravitas talking about the way that they communicate. Jenn DeWall:  Oh, no kidding. I know the origin. I mean, I know presence, but I never knew the origin of that. Oh my thank you for, I mean, you’ve already taught me a lot today, but thank you for that. <Laugh>. Richard Newman:  No, yeah, no worries. Because people often think, oh, it’s a big mystery. This gravitas gravity needs to work with you and you. So you need to get rid of the affectations and tension in your body. Any habits that are holding you back from that and come back to how you were born to stand. And once you do that, and we’ve seen this on the videos that we did, where if you just, I mean, if you just simply go from standing saying words where you are with your feet together. So you’re in, what we would see as a low-status position. You say the same words you wear the same clothes. You just move them to the point at which you have feet, shoulder width apart, not spreading them, not going too wide, but just in a comfortable, balanced position. The way that people go is that the number of people convinced by your message jumps by 32% because they know when you got your feet together, you can push the person over. They are a pushover. When you stand grounded, they know that the, from a subconscious reaction to your posture, they know that gravity’s working with you. If they gave you a push, you’re not going anywhere. And so suddenly, you have this gravitas behind your message and nobody thinks, wow, your feet are wider apart. I better take this seriously. What they see and what they feel is you have gravitas. I’m paying attention. I will cancel my plans. I will do that job for you tomorrow. So it’s, it can be that simple in some of the shifts that people make. Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> my mind just is very blown. And I think I, because we are seeing each other right now to our, to our audience, we Richard and I can see each other. So then the thoughts in my head are, am I doing it wrong? I’m sitting this way. What’s going on? And it’s not like I asked you for a perfect self-assessment, Hey, by the way, can you diagnose me with my communications and body language challenges, but I’m naturally now like thinking, am I doing that? What do I do? I definitely I’m sitting right now. And I had it where one foot was up actually on the chair I was sitting on that foot and one was down. And I’m wondering like, did that impact how I communicate? Does that impact how I communicate? It’s just, Before You Speak— Get Grounded Richard Newman: Yeah, that’s a good question, actually, just to jump into, because you often see that where people are slightly off balance and they don’t know why. And we often talk to people about get that sense of being grounded. Feel the ground underneath you. If you’re feeling nervous and about to go on stage or nervous and about to go into an interview, get your feet on the floor. So even if you need to be sitting towards the front of a seat to do it, just feel your fleet feet on the floor and get your, what we call, get your weight into your feet. And what that means is that you could stand up from that chair without pushing with your hands. So your weight is in that position where you’ve got gravity on your side, but you also feel grounded in the same position. And so, but it’s a very common thing for people to be doing when they are sitting, if it’s virtual or if they’re, they’re sitting in a boardroom, Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh, Richard, Richard, this is a bad story, but I can tell you, like, I sit like that often. And I was at a board meeting for NSA- or National Speaker’s Association. So I used to sit on the board for that. And I turned around from the conference table and I was sitting like that. And because I didn’t have my, you know, grounding, I fell into the president of the association. Richard Newman: <Laugh> oh, no way. Jenn DeWall: It was not only my first impression with a lot of the people on the board. First time meeting them face to face because we’d only ever met virtually. And I was like, should really pay attention, know I’m sitting. And now this is coming full circle. Like you really need to pay attention to grounding. And I hope I say that as if, if you spilled coffee on yourself today, hopefully, you didn’t fall on the president. So you’re good. Like <laugh>, But the reminder, but I, I love that of thinking. Richard, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, and I don’t even know, did we, do we miss anything that you think our audience really needs to hear as it relates to how to lift yourself and others with story? Because we talked a lot about the mechanics of story, which a lot of people miss and really important things accessing to three points of the brain, recognizing why, how you have to start with inviting them in or setting the stage talking about, again, grounding yourself in your own body language. What else did we do, there’s so much to cover, but I guess today like I want, I would love to have you back. I would love to talk about any topic that you have as it relates because you are a wealth of knowledge that I hope that I know. I know people are walking away listening to this, like, yeah, I can do this. And feeling empowered and inspired to deliver a message in a different way. And thank you for that gift. Richard Newman:  Yeah. Well, I like to break it down and make it really easy for people to remember. There’s, there are certain pieces we’ve missed. I’d love to come back and talk to, again, there’s with my team at Body Talk. There’s like 60 hours worth that we teach people we’ve covered like a few tidbits here. But if I was to leave you with one, you know, crucial guide or, or one, you know, an important guide for people to walk away with if they’re going into a meeting and thinking, what should I do right now to improve this meeting? We talk to people about lift, which is before you go into a next meeting, just consider this, don’t be in your head, focus, outwards, focus towards the other people. It saves you from being self-conscious. And just think by the end of this meeting, how do I lift this person and lifting this person means how do I move them from a negative or a neutral state to a positive or more positive state? How do I do that? And allow your body language, tone of voice and words to move in that direction. And we love it when somebody does this, you know, it might be, if you can think back, it might be like your favorite grandma did this when you were younger, that she, she was the person who lifted you. She spoke to you, and she saw your greatness. And whenever you were around her, you walked away going. I wanna live up to who this person thinks I am. And suddenly, you know, by doing that as a leader, you lift everybody around you. So I’d encourage people to think about lift in their next meeting. How to Connect with Richard to Learn More Jenn DeWall:  I love that we rise by lifting others. Richard, how can our audience get in touch with you and the body talk team? Richard Newman:  So if people wanna find out more, you can go to UKBodyTalk.com, and there are loads of resources on there. You can find me on LinkedIn. I’m Richard Newman, Body Talk on LinkedIn. And you can also if you want to find me on Instagram, I’m at RichardNewmanSpeaks. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh, Richard. Thank you so much. I would love to have you back on the show. Thank you again for donating your time. Thank you for your vulnerability as well. And just sharing your story. I thank you. Thank you. You’ve inspired me today and I’m just grateful. Richard Newman:  Great. Thanks Jenn. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I loved my conversation with Richard Newman and I hope that you’re walking away, listening to this, thinking. Wow. Think about how I can change my communication to make a greater impact. Now, if you enjoyed the conversation and you want to link up and connect with Richard, you can find him on LinkedIn at Richard Newman speaks. You can head on over to UKBodyTalk.com and which is his official website. And you can also find him on Instagram at RichardNewmanSpeaks. Thank you again so much for listening today. If we at Crestcom can ever do anything to serve your leadership needs. We offer a complimentary two-hour leadership skills workshop and would love the opportunity to come into your team, whether it’s live or virtual to help build those foundational skills that help a team connect and work better together. And if you enjoyed this week’s episode, share it with a friend. Heck, we could all benefit from having better communicators in our meetings. And please don’t forget to leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming platform. Until next time.   The post Communicate and Connect Through Story with Richard Newman, Founder of Body Talk appeared first on Crestcom International.

How to Bridge the Confidence Gap with Sinead Sharkey-Steenson   Full Transcript Below Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall. And on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Sinead Sharkey-Steenson to talk about bridging the confidence gap. Now, I know what you’re thinking. Actually, some of you might be thinking, I don’t struggle with confidence, so I’m just gonna walk away, but there’s a lot more to understanding what confidence is, how to tell when we have it or how to build it when we don’t. And so I would encourage you to keep an open mind, think about how we assess other people’s confidence and how we even assess our own and even open up a new way to think about how you can develop your own confidence. But before we dive into the show, let me tell you a little bit more about Sinead Sharkey-Steenson. Meet Sinead Sharkey-Steenson, The Career Elevator Coach Jenn DeWall: Sinead is the Career Elevator Coach at Generation Women, where she helps women get promotions and pay raises they deserve. Passionate about equality in seeing more women in leadership, Sinead blends practical strategies with simple mindset tools to achieve amazing results, with several getting over 100% pay raises and multiple promotions. There are claps to be shared there! To date, Sinead has helped close to 10,000 women take a step up Sinead draws on over 20 years of corporate experience in HR leadership development, business improvement, and cultural transformation to help her support women to achieve their ambitions. And she has been recognized as one of 22 Leaders to Learn From in 2022 by Bunch Leadership App. Now, I want you to know that you might be thinking, oh, I guess I’m a man. I’m gonna tune out. No, we are actually going to be talking about the differences as well in men and women in gender, as it relates to the confidence gap. So enjoy our conversation on how to bridge the confidence gap. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson. So great to have you on the podcast today. Did I say that right that time? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson: You got it right! That’s thank you so much. I’m really excited about this. This is gonna be fun, I think. Jenn DeWall: Oh my gosh. Yeah, we’re talking today. So welcome to The Leadership Habit. We are so happy to have as our guest today,  Sinead Sharkey-Steenson. We’re happy to have Sinead on the show today to talk about the confidence gap, which I know. I’m just gonna say it. Whoever is listening, whether or not you realize it— you may have a confidence opportunity. I think sometimes people actually, you know, when they think of confidence, they think, well, I’m a confident person, and they don’t actually peel back the layers. So I want to invite you to be curious today on what confidence looks like and where potentially you may not be showing up with confidence, even though you might think you are, but Sinead, before we jump into the show, let’s get your origin story because I love hearing, you know, tell us how you came to be where you are today. How Sinead Learned to Tap Into Authentic Confidence Sinead Sharkey-Steenson: Oh, well, I’ll tell you the bit that relates to confidence because you know, an origin story can go on for a while. <Laugh> so I’ll give you the bit. So my confidence origin story actually goes back to being a child and, and I’m the youngest of four children by quite some way. And I was labeled shy as of six or seven years of age and I just remember that so clearly like, and not that it was like a feeling I had, but hi, you’re Sinead. And you are shy. That’s your identity now, keep it for the rest of your life. And that was kind of how it felt. Especially when I look back on it and see what it did. And so roll forward many years to when I’m starting out in my career, I was really good academically and I was a big pleaser and high achiever and all of those things. But I went, I did, I studied psychology as my degree and came out of that degree with no idea what I was gonna do. Just like I have no direction here. Where am I going? And and that was, that started a series of me drifting into things, doing what seemed like the best option at the time. And so I did a management diploma for a couple of years, I worked in HR. And then I was like, no, I don’t wanna work in HR. Went back to school, did tech. And that was when the shy seven-year-old kicked right back in. So I was doing a master’s in computing and information systems, as it was called back in 1999. And <laugh>, I recognized very quickly I was in the wrong place. My brain didn’t work in the way that the rest of the people in the class did. And what the hell was I going to do? But here I am, I have no other directions to go in. And that, that imposter, that fear that, you know, the whole thought of being speaking up and being looked at, like I was stupid, really kicked in. And I went off. I, I really did well in the course. Like I, I got <laugh> just below a distinction, which was remarkable and ended up then in the workplace in a corporate job in the total wrong thing for me and confidence was an issue again. But thankfully, I recognized after a few years of misery and whatever that nobody could come and sort this out, except for me. So off I went to rebuild my confidence, find my direction, work out what I was gonna do, and made huge changes to my career. Thanks to a lovely boss I had then, and support. And it was through working out what my strengths were, my direction. Then I managed to tap into what was a more authentic confidence and real confidence. And even when I didn’t know what I was doing, the imposter wasn’t there the same, because I was like, I know that I’m gonna work this out and I could go with this. And I just as I got through that corporate career started to look at having a business, and after I’d had children, that’s what I wanted to do. I thought, well, I need to help women navigate a lot of what I’ve gone through. So find the right career lean into their confidence and their strength, and be able to have maximum impact in what they do. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. And that’s what we strive for. But I love that you shared an experience that I think a lot of people can relate to when you feel like you walk into a room and you look around and you’re like, am I, am I in the wrong place here? And you start to second guess maybe who you are, whether you belong, whether your voice matters. I think that there are a lot of experiences within the workplace that can lead us to that, to that feeling in that room of just not feeling like we even add value. And so if you’re listening to this right now, we’re gonna be building on this, talking about bridging that confidence gap, leveraging Sinead’s experience and helping you see the big picture because you’re not alone. A lot of people struggle with confidence. I mean, tell me about your work. Like, I, I know that for me, I initially started as a career coach and all you really actually find is that it’s all about confidence. Because confidence determines what we do or don’t do. But how do you see it in your line of work? What are the situations that your clients are coming to you for? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Oh, it’s a hundred percent that there’s so many situations. You know, when I get somebody in front of me, whether it’s online or in person, you can see the potential, you can see, you know, what’s underneath, but they quite often are oblivious <laugh> to it. They don’t understand what they have and how special they are. And that really impacts their confidence to go for things. Or if they do know. And there’s a glimer of that knowledge, there’s that those saboteurs in your head chipping away going, who do you think you are? I thinking you can do that or whatever it is that fear it is essentially pushing you back into your box to go, no, you’re not gonna step up today. That’s not gonna happen. You just stay safe there and everything will be okay. And that’s what I see with women every day. They just need that bit of a strategy and bit of a shove of support to take the step. What is The Confidence Gap? Jenn DeWall:  It’s our mindset, it’s our reaction. So let’s, let’s dive into it. What is from your perspective how do you describe what a confidence gap is for someone that’s maybe curious about it? Do they have it? Some people are likely like, yes, I know that I struggle with confidence, but how do you describe what a confidence gap is? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  So there’s two ways of looking at it because the confidence gap that’s after talked about is the terms of, is there a confidence gap between men and women? And actually in reality, there isn’t, we all can suffer from a lack of confidence. But there is a difference in how that shows up and how we, what the expectations are on men versus women. So I’m sure we will delve into that a little bit later, but really a confidence gap is a gap between what you are potentially capable of doing and what you feel comfortable and able to go and do. <Laugh>. So quite often, there’s a huge gap between what, how I’m feeling and what I could potentially do. And in that gap is, is so much possibility. And it’s so frustrating to think that how many of us are, are sitting and holding ourselves back from what we could possibly do. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh. So many. I mean, you know, what’s okay. I’ve got a serious question because some people think that there’s an art of mastery with confidence. And from my perspective in teaching that, I have friends that are like, don’t you teach confidence? Like, why aren’t you showing up with confidence? And the thing that I always say is that it’s not a destination any time that you’re, you know, taking a risk, you’re likely going to find yourself at the confidence gap. But tell me from your experience, because I think there’s this expectation that, you know, kind of like perfection, there’s a myth that like, oh, now I’ve figured out all the keys and tools until they don’t work anymore. What’s your perspective on that? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Oh, I think I’m in your camp, Jenn! Where confidence is really contextual. So when I know my stuff, when I’m using my strengths, when I’m in my zone, I am nailing it and I’m as confident as can be, and there’s no stopping me, but plant me in another situation where I don’t feel, I know anything. I don’t know what the answers are, what I’m supposed to be talking about, how I’m supposed to be delivering. Like if this podcast was about anything tech-related <laugh>, then I would be in my zone of terror and there will be absolute gobbledy-goop coming outta my mouth. So I think what, what people are seeing is there’s certain people, there’s a small percentage of the population that are able to bluff it in any situation. And they’ve got this veneer of, I’ve got this. I can talk about anything that I can do, whatever, but underneath that everybody has, well, everybody apart from maybe the art person has this, oh my goodness. I’m gonna be found out. I’m now wandering into a zone where I have no idea. <Laugh> where I am. Please. Somebody rescue me. So yeah, I think it’s, it’s contextual, but I think there’s a lot we can do to strengthen the muscle of confidence that can filter out into more areas. How Does Confidence Show Up Differently in Men and Women? Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. Well, we’re gonna talk about more building that. How can we flex that? How can we develop our confidence muscle? But you know, we have obviously men and women listening right now from the perspective of confidence, what is the difference between men and women that you’ve noticed? Like, I know we’re conditioned, we’re primed in a different way. What do you see? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Oh, we are a hundred percent primed, and a lot of it will be cultural as well. And I know we are gonna talk about that in a minute, but I just wanted to preempt that. Yeah. Jenn DeWall:  That’s a very important point that depending on where we are raised, we are going to demonstrate it differently. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Yeah. And especially the, the gender thing as well, the expectations on us. So those things overlap. But if you think about there’s a great experiment was done on by a BBC show a few years ago, where they got parents to put their babies through these different, safe experiments to see how differently they treated their baby. If there were a boy and if there were a girl and one of the things was putting them on this ramp to crawl down and the parents of baby boys were cranking up the ramp really high, like, yeah, my baby’s got no problem. They’ll get down this without, without thinking. And whereas the, the parents of girls were more likely to play it safe. And so there’s these expectations and ways people behave around you right from the get-go. And I know where I grew up, like the expectation at school would be, you know, it was great if a boy even looked at his homework, whereas I better have my homework done and the answers better all be perfect. And so all along, we’re creating this way of thinking about how girls or boys perform and behave. It’s reinforced by books. It’s reinforced by TV, it’s reinforced by advertising. And so confidence then is a completely different beast when it comes to girls or boys. Because for, for boys, they’ve been encouraged to take risks and to be loud and to do all those things. And girls quite often, and a lot of cultures have been encouraged to be perfect and quiet and, and get on with it and not be too showy and, and all of these things. So it, it’s really interesting when you roll forward to the workplace as to how that might look. Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh, we’re gonna dive into that in a second. And that speaks to me because I, you know, as a woman, I think those expectations in the culture where I grew up, the woman was seen as again, be quiet, look good, cuz that’s also the other piece of like put yourself together, be well kept. Mind your voice. Like, are you supposed to be participating in this conversation? And I think, I don’t know how the heck I got it. It obviously dealt with my upbringing. I had to be very strong from a young age and kind of grow up really fast. And so I think I developed this sense of self and articulation that other people didn’t have. And so I felt more and it wasn’t confidence. It wasn’t that it was self-awareness and like asking questions and being more curious, just because of maybe a different way of perspective, because I had to grow up young and how I would say that impacted, you know, going into that conversation. Like when I was in high school, I think of descriptions that friends said, like you were over zealous, you know, I was student council president. I was this and I was right. I was trying to prove it to people that I was good enough and that had to do with my own family stuff. But I always got my hand slapped for being too loud. I always got my hand slapped for not being quiet enough or for being too driven. And then going into my corporate career, I actually, you know, my first two positions that wasn’t a challenge. It was my third position in a more male-dominated part of the company that then that became seen as like this huge flaw. And it became a weight for me that I carried around. Like I was unworthy and what in the heck was wrong with me? Why couldn’t I just smile and wear a dress and do what they said? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Oh, <laugh> Oh! That makes me want to cry and pull my hair at the same time! Jenn DeWall:  I mean, and let’s, cause let’s talk about that. Like thinking about these conditions and this is where it’s planting the seed to our audience, like, is this an opportunity to relearn the way that we look at expectations of individuals or genders and what they are supposed to look like, how are they supposed to look like, because when that comes into the workplace, then we start to talk about that beautiful term, which you and I just talked about in the pre-show, you know, executive presence or gravitas, but I’ve decided that after today, after you telling me what gravitas actually means, I don’t like it. <Laugh> probably because I don’t have gravitas by nature of who I am, but what does– Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  We should probably share what that means. Yeah. Executive Presence and the Confidence Gap Jenn DeWall:  Yes <laugh> let’s so let’s talk about what executive presence means or yeah, we’ll talk you, so gravitas can be used with executive presence, leadership presence. We’re going to be talking about executive presence, but for those that might be curious about what the word gravitas means. That’s often used to describe this. What does it mean Sinead? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Well, I actually did Google this, so it comes from the Latin and it’s, it’s derived from serious. And I think there’s a bit too much seriousness in the workplace as it is. And do we have impact really by how serious we are or is it how confident and how knowledgeable and how we perform, how we get results. That should really be where our gravitas is and our executive presence. But yeah, this term of executive presence, it’s one of those things that’s banded about and it’s what on earth does that even actually mean? <Laugh> to, you know, and it’s something you can imagine a set of leaders sitting around a boardroom table discussing, you know, the pay rises after the performance. Oh yeah. Jenn’s good, but she doesn’t really have executive presence. Jenn DeWall:  That happened to me through my life. I’m not sure no one is surprised, but that absolutely happens. <Laugh> Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Well, I mean, what is that? And so you have to really dig for people to say, well, what, what you actually mean? Cause they will all nod and go, oh yes, yes. You’re so right. Yeah. We, we can’t be promoting her. She just doesn’t have the right presence. What does it mean? And I think it, it comes back to this gendered thing that we have this perception of what presence and leadership is quite often based on men and let’s face it, white men cause there’s so much other diversity plays into this as well, that holds people back. And so really what they’re talking about is taking up space, being able to project your voice, to be self promoting, you know, to be assertive. And lots of those things are things women get knocked down for. You said it yourself, Jenn, like those were all the things that people were like, oh God, Jenn, don’t be, don’t be overzealous. Or you might get bossy or too big for your boots or, or whatever the expression is, shrill, you know, all these words for describing women behaving in a way that demonstrates executive presence essentially. So yeah, Jenn DeWall:  Always you’re too much of it. And I wanna touch on that because executive presence, you know, I had recently read something that said, I think it was that 50% of HR professionals actually find it really difficult to define, but yet on the flip side, 70% say it’s extremely easy to spot. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Right. Jenn DeWall:  But then we have to think about bias because I, yeah. You know, you’re gonna get me really lit up on this because there are just situations in my life, again, being a more direct woman I’m loud, right? Hosting a podcast. No one’s surprised. But even when it came down to presence, I had recently done a speaking event and I’d asked the meeting professional in the committee before, if it would be okay if I wore a blazer and jeans, like, Hey, the message that I’m talking about is being human. And I think I want to come up with something that’s more relatable. And at the end of that event, someone came up, a lovely person, came up to give me feedback. I’m not, you know, shooting the messenger. This is a great individual, but he had shared to me, Hey John, I wanna let you know that there’s this me other meeting professional that came up to me afterwards. And she said, she just loved your talk, but she couldn’t hire you because you wore jeans. And then he went on to say, and I know that’s different because I know that men can, and in my like head, because I’m, I’m thinking is this 20, 22? How are we still having these conversations? And you know, I did, that was a calculated risk on my time or on my terms. I knew I was towing the line with the audience. So I am not asking for any level of pity. I knew that I was towing the line. I wanted to come off as more relatable. That is a calculated risk. It backfired. But yet it still begs the question, how are assessing someone’s performance? Is it all on the physical still where we’re not even paying attention to the impact they’re making? And if so, why and what are our flaws and our thinking process, I don’t know, takes on that. Like <laugh> Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Oh, well like this. Oh, I’m so frustrated as I’m sure you were by that! Jenn DeWall:  I mean, I, I cried. I cried, right? Because I put all of my work into the stage. And so I sobbed and sobbed and I had to give myself a week to cry. Like I’m just being honest, cried. I was, and I suck, like, why did I do that? Like, I’m so stupid. Like, you know, I went through all those emotions and it, yeah, it, it sucked, like it wasn’t great. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  And the thing is, I can imagine how brilliant your talk was. Like, what kind of world are we in that the value of your message and your impact in what you said, wasn’t more, that was what you were there and paid to do. That’s what you were representing. That’s why you were there. That, that wasn’t it. No, a pair of jeans can undo that. And not only did he share that, but he called out the double standard and still doubled down on it. And instead of going, hold on, why do we have this double standard, pushing back to, to whoever you were speaking to and said, yeah, she wore jeans and she was amazing. Doesn’t that just show that jeans don’t matter! What we wear doesn’t matter. And it is so angering because not only are we we creating issues from a gender perspective, but also I have a child who’s neuro divergent, and I know she is brilliant and amazing, and she’s gonna go out into the world. She has the most creative mind and a great problem solver, which is very common. When you’ve a neuro divergent brain. And comfort in what you wear, being able to wear a hoodie or whatever it is, how is that gonna impact your capability at work? And I know that’s taking us off in a little tangent, but it’s all coming to the same thing. Surely we should be creating an environment where people can perform at their best. That’s their confidence will come very naturally when they’re supported to be who they are and valued for the impact. They can have the knowledge they bring the you know, the excellence that’s within them, but yet we’re willing to push all that down because of a pair of jeans. Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> I? Yeah. I, I mean, I, yeah, it’s we miss the mark. Sometimes we pay attention to the wrong things, but much of it is because we have our own biases that we’re developed. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Allyship and the Confidence Gap Jenn DeWall:  So let’s talk about what’s appropriate. You know, how we were conditioned, if you were a man or a boy, what is appropriate that they can do, you know, based on how they were conditioned, because I think this is important for men to also see the flip side of that. And we’ll talk about that as well, but what was encouraged in men and boys, but discouraged in girls and women? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Well, I can give you the perfect example of this. And this is why I, I got interested in this. So one day I was taking a nap with my children and I’d sat them down in front of the TV. And they were watching a well known children’s global TV channel and advertising came on and they advertised on that towards girls, it was all selfie sticks make, you know, makeup, princess-y things. It was all about appearance. And to boys, it was about risk-taking science exploration. It was cultivating them as individuals to make an impact on the world. And so as men, we have to recognize, or they have to recognize, I can’t speak for you <laugh> but you’ve been, you’ve been cultured to be these things, but also you’ve been stuck from being allowed to express your feelings and, and to explore that other side of you that exists in all of us, you know, we’re not comfortable with boys playing with dolls and that kinda thing. And so we’ve each got to challenge ourselves to look at what’s that done to shape your thinking? And like, you know, the guy with the jeans is such a perfect example. Like he even knew as the words were coming outta his mouth, that he was wrong. Well, catch yourself, and question it, you know, why am I thinking that this is okay? How can I be part of the solution instead of propagating the problem? Jenn DeWall:  Oh my gosh, I love that. Well, because again, I wanna emphasize that the individual that shared that to me or shared that with me was actually great. And he is very highly regarded. No, he is. But I think, and I, I knew the moment that he was saying it, I could see in his eyes like, oh God, I it’s coming. I could see it in his eyes of like, I shouldn’t have said that. Yeah. Like I don’t think it was any ill intended. Yeah. Actually think he was trying to help me, but it does beg the question of what allyship also needs to look like in a workplace. Like, Hey, you know, I bet if you talk to her, she could also not wear jeans. As I look to my closet over there and see all of my dresses and professional attire, because I worked in corporate America for a long time, you know? And I actually love dressing up. I was just trying to like, add into my message, you know, it was a failure. I may not ever do that again. Or maybe I’ll like, that’s the cross all, Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  No, you need to do it! Don’t let it stop you!. Yeah. But yeah, Jenn DeWall:  But it’s, and I, I wanna say that because don’t be afraid, but the other piece I want to say is, cuz I’ve seen this where in the workplace men, you can get as angry as you want. That is the appropriate emotion. Actually. That’s the only emotion that you can demonstrate at work is that, you know, anger, frustration, things in that vein. Women on the other hand, not allowed to show that, right. Especially if it’s not contained well, like then that’s like, what’s going on you’re to this you’re to that and that creates an unfairness for men because men just to let you know, I know that you cry. I know that you’re sad. I know that you get this and it’s okay. But you actually were told that the only way that you can really demonstrate that is through anger and frustration and you know, women we’re also told that they can’t do it that way, but they can cry. They can absolutely cry. That’s what we expect of them. They’re just emotional beings that can’t handle their stuff, like challenge that. We can both be both of those things. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Absolutely. And, and being allies for each other is how we make that change. So, you know, when you hear yourself saying the things. When you are challenging somebody’s performance, based on how they speak, how they dress, how they look like, that’s gotta be a clue to the fact that that’s not appropriate. You know, let’s think about this and it it’s to catch yourself in that and recognize it. And also when you hear other people doing it, saying, okay, is that right? Is that cool? Is that what we should be doing? You know, here’s another perspective on it. So maybe you don’t like how you know, Sinead speaks particularly, but what’s important is what she’s actually saying. <Laugh> so how can we <laugh> listen to that? Jenn DeWall:  How can we be curious? I once had someone, we were booking a speaker and the speaker had in the U.S., a Southern accent, and some, there was one individual that really took issue with it. But here’s how I look at it. We actually are a global organization, meaning that everyone’s accent is going to be so different and nuanced based on whether English is their second language, where they grew up, like it’s all relative, right. We’re just getting, these are distractions that are taking away from really important messages. But let’s talk about the, the differences culturally, and then we’re gonna dive into how to bridge the confidence gap. What do you notice as like the cultural nuances? Stereotypes and the Confidence Gap Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  So I grew up in the UK and those of you listening from outside the UK, you know, some of the stereotypes you see are not too far from the truth. So the what you call the Hugh grant in <laugh> and those things whilst we’re not all that posh, that real self-deprecating way of getting on is a reality. You know, I’ll just minimize myself until you can’t see me, is a real cultural thing. And so both men and women do it, but women definitely do it a lot more. And so that’s gonna have a major impact on new confidence. And I’ll never forget, actually, when I was in the corporate world, I used to go and deliver training across the U.S. and, whatever. And I went to do my first ever training in, it was actually in Canada. And I couldn’t get over how many questions I got asked. So all the way through, they were interrupting me and asking questions. And I said to one of them at the end of it, how come everybody’s got so many questions? Why do they need to know so many things? And they said, we get rewarded in school for asking questions. It’s a really encouraged behavior. And it is a good behavior to have, but this is the thing, our society, our schooling at the expectations turn us into what we are. And it it’s, it was very much a culture here for children of, you know, be seen and not heard. <Laugh>. So the quiet you are, the better you are. And when you look at which things are being rewarded, where you can see, you know, Americans would be known for being seen to be much more confident and outgoing certainly in my part of the world. And then when you take that into other cultures, when there’s so many different expectations placed on men and women from religious and cultural expectations, then you can see, we do have, we do get put into different boxes that can have an impact on how we’re able to project ourselves and that how confident we feel in different situations. So those things absolutely have to be taken into account. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. Well, and here’s the opening for anyone that’s listening. And even if, if you’re, if you’re inquisitive, like I am, cause I got my hand slapped, right. I asked too many questions and really like, I ask questions to understand the why that’s actually just how I process information. It it’s really hard for me to think without having the information. I’m not great sometimes that I, I just need to understand why. Because then it helps me level and ground myself in the actions that I’m supposed to take. But yet I was met with in, in the culture that I was, you know, work culture that I had with Jenn. We need you to be a yes man. And so, you know, going into this, I love all these real-life examples. Thank you so much to that organization that gave me these fruitful, rich things Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  <Laugh> and there was also a yes ma’am as well. Yeah. Bridging the Confidence Gap Jenn DeWall:  Just but like this, I hope that we’re now opening. Because we’re gonna dive into like the tips, right? The tips on how to bridge the confidence gap and no matter where, what chair you’re sitting in right now, what labels identities that you might have attached to yourself because of that upbringing, because of the work experiences know that you always get to choose which ones to put on and to take off. And so keep your mind open, challenge yourself, because Sinead’s gonna walk through how to bridge the confidence gap. Let’s hear it. Where do you start? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Well, a great place to start and this one, my clients get a bit quicky at this. I will, I will have it. But a good place to start is by getting feedback when I have a really specific way of getting feedback, because if you have a confidence issue, the absolute worst question you can ask anybody is what are my weaknesses or what do you think I’m not good at? Or ask them for any negative feedback whatsoever. Now I’m not seeing we go into an alternate reality where we don’t have weaknesses, but think about, well, it would do your confidence. Good to know what I’m strong at. Where do you see me having the most impact? How do I add value? And instead of asking for weaknesses, you know, what could I do more of to have more impact? What things do you think I could do instead? And so you’re asking for constructive forward moving actions that you can actually take. And that is such powerful and amazing feedback because other people can really help you see your blind spots, but they don’t need to shine a light on them so that you can’t move off <laugh> which is often what, what happens. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah, yeah. Or where we get stuck. We hear it. And we just hear the opinion. Yeah. I like that. You added, it might be the perception, right? The feedback that they’re giving you, but it’s matched with action. So to the leaders that are giving feedback, also thinking about the appropriate action, but if you’re receiving ask for the action yeah. What would that look like? How can you do more? I think that’s really a really important point that you just made. Like, I’m not just gonna take this as a label. I am going to do something with it. Yeah. curiosity. What do you recommend as it term in terms of like who you get feedback from? Like is, are you really supposed to open it up to everyone? Are you supposed to close that a little bit? What’s your guidance for that? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Only ask people that you respect for feedback. So people that you genuinely feel you can learn from and you value their opinion. Like why would you ask somebody who you don’t value in the first place? What they’re gonna share with you? Cause the likelihood is, is it’s gonna, you’re going to sweat over it. You’re going, you know, focus on it. But think about who around me, who in my organization or who that I’ve worked with previously, do I really value and respect and no can give me insightful feedback. That’s gonna benefit me. And those are definitely the people. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you for putting the guardrails on that because no, do not ask your neighbor that you don’t like your colleague that’s rude to you. Those are the wrong people. And I had a friend that once said, like, I only take feedback if I know it’s coming from a place of love, you know, where I know that they genuinely care. And I thought that was a really cool perspective because people can be really critical sometimes just because they have things going on. Feedback is Like a Gift—It Should be Wrapped Properly Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Absolutely. Yeah. So feedback should be a gift and we all like gifts that are wrapped properly and have people have taken care in choosing them. And so you don’t want one that you want to put in the trash Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> so yeah, absolutely. Or that, that adds to your own head trash. What, so what comes after feedback? So for bridging the confidence gap, the first thing we’re doing is building our awareness and one way to do that is feedback. Yeah. Then what comes after that? So Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Then, right. I have a real thing that you’ve gotta focus on your strengths. So part of your feedback is asking about those strengths. What do you see me doing? Well, how do I have impact, but also do your own inventory of yourself strengths. And I find people can be a bit, Ooh, I don’t know what I’m strong at, but actually your strengths are the things that you do easily. So think about when you just are in your most productive mold and when you are getting things done and you know, you almost get lost in time. You’re in the zone. That is when you are using your absolute strengths. So what is it you are doing and using them. And the magical thing about strengths is that when you use them, they make you feel strong. You automatically feel confident. That is when we are in our best possible place. So your job to perform well in life and for your organization for your business is to use your strengths as often as possible. So now I know what they are, how can I use more of them every day? And you’ll be walking around with like a ninja strength when you’re doing that. You know? Cause it’s all there. Jenn DeWall:  It’s well, and it’s so important to understand who you are when I was in my twenties. I, you know, got the job that it by my twenties definition was so exciting and so glamorous. And I just wanted to be a buyer one day. Like they get to travel even more. They get to go to fancy, whatever all the perks were. And here’s the thing that I actually was always turning my cheek to my natural strengths are communication. It’s connecting with others. What were your roles when you’re working in a buying office it’s typically more analytical, it’s finance-driven. But because I start, I compared myself, the people that I worked with that were like me, I would always compare myself. Am I good enough for them? Am I, am I doing it? And so then I feel like I almost grabbed their identity of maybe their strengths and their aspirations and made them my own because I wasn’t rooted in my own confidence. And so when I didn’t make it to buyer, it was so devastating for me. I mean, I didn’t leave. I left before I could have gotten to that. But like, it was still devastating to abort that dream because by comparison, that was my dream. Even though it had nothing to do with my strengths, like, and there are people likely sitting there, like telling themselves that they’re not good enough because they’re comparing themselves to the wrong path. Yeah. I’m curious about your thoughts on that. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Well, that’s why you really have to connect in with yourself. It’s, it’s all about you. It’s a bit like we were talking about appearance before we could put way too much on, you know, look at the perfection we need in makeup and hair and everything. That’s put out there on social media. That stuff all makes you feel really bad, but what makes you feel really good is when you get in touch with you and what you love. And when I spoke about my, my really tough time in my career it was because I was in that comparison mode. I wasn’t working to my strengths and when I stopped and just really connected in with what do I love doing? What do I get excited about? Where do I really make the biggest difference? And it was in communicating with people and understanding them and trying to connect with them. And I had devalued all of those things, cuz I wasn’t good at programming <laugh> But yet nobody could get, you know, none of the programmers could get the right work without me going and connecting with people to find out, well, what really is the problem here? And how can we make that work and what would make a difference for you? And so I was like, yeah, I can’t do what they do. But when I realized, but what I can do is just as important and in a lot situations, even more important, then I was like, ah, now I know my value. And it’s all in that, understanding your strengths. So while it can feel hard, it’s, it’s about tapping into that. And a really simple thing you can do is journal every day and just write down what did I do well today or what wouldn’t have happened today? If I wasn’t there. Jenn DeWall:  Yes. I love that great tip and great additional story. You gotta see and own those strengths. Don’t hide them. What comes next? So once we understand and identify our strengths and you know, we finally look for ways that maybe we can apply them. Maybe that’s not a new job. Maybe that’s asking for a different opportunity within your role. What comes after that? Message—Practice—Mindset Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  So I’m a great believer in preparing. So preparing your messaging, thinking about who am I gonna talk to? What do I want the outcome to be here? What do I want the person to think, feel, see, or do as a result of us speaking. And they’re practicing that. Like what’s the message I need to share. So think about, you know, if you are a big sports person, like Serena Williams is one of my absolute heroes. Do you think she ever got on the court and hadn’t practiced every single type of shop that could come at her, not a chance, but yet we think we can just go and wing it in everyday life and we’re gonna get the results. But now if you practice, you know, here’s what I want. Here’s what I need to see to get it. And then here’s how I need to show up to do that. So it’s it’s message practice and then mindset. How am I showing up to deliver that? So getting myself in the zone to do it, Jenn DeWall:  Get yourself in the zone message, mindset. What was the next one message. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  So message, practice, mindset! Jenn DeWall:  Message, Practice Mindset. If you want to be the Serena Williams of your life, not comparing yourself to her, but you do need to prepare for those moments of your own performance. What’s your final step on how to bridge the confidence gap. Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Then it’s all about building your support team around you, your allies and your network because you don’t achieve anything on your own. So reach out, you know, connect with people, let them know what you want to achieve and ask for their help and offer your help. You know, how can I help you achieve what you want to do? But when you have people behind you reaching for you, supporting you, and championing, championing, that’s easy for me to say! Championing you, then things happen. And, that’s when the results really start to multiply. Yeah. And so those are some of the things that I would really help my clients do and relationships will, will get you everywhere. Where to Find Sinead Sharkey-Steenson Jenn DeWall:  Oh gosh, we know that relationships are the key to our success because we are interdependent, not independent. Sinead. I have really enjoyed our conversation today. How does our audience get in touch with you? Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Well, the two best places on my website. So genwomen.global and on LinkedIn, I’m Sinead Sharkey-Steenson on LinkedIn. And I love a personal message. Send me a message. Let me know what you thought, how I can help. And I’d be happy to connect Jenn DeWall:  Sinead, thank you so much for joining our audience today, to talk with the confidence gap, something that I’m gonna say, the majority of people struggle with. Thank you for your time and your expertise and just your passion for the topic and helping to serve. Thank you so much. Sinead Sinead Sharkey-Steenson:  Oh, thank you for having me. It’s been an absolute joy. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast. I love my conversation with Sinead. I love the topics that we got into. Why are we the way that we are? Would we show up different or how would we show up if we were raised a different way, born in a different environment or a country, so much curiosity and so many questions, but if you want to connect with a Sinead Sharkey-Steenson and I goof up on that name, but it’s Sinead Sharkey-Steenson, you can head on over to her website, genwomen.global. And there you can take her free quiz, how to get promoted and receive a tailored set of free career and confidence tools to help you where you want to go. So head on over, you want to take that great quiz to genwomen.global/quiz. And of course, if you enjoy today’s podcast, share it with a friend, share it with a friend or colleague or a leader that you know, might be struggling with confidence. And if you want to develop your leadership skills, head on over to Crestcom.com, we can offer you a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop, and we would love to come in and talk with your team. And, of course, if you enjoyed this podcast, leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service! Until next time.   The post How to Bridge the Confidence Gap with Sinead Sharkey-Steenson appeared first on Crestcom International.

Two Things Leaders Need to Know Now with Gregory Offner Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It’s Jenn DeWall, and on this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast, I sat down with Gregory Offner to talk about the two things that leaders need to learn now! Gregory Offner is one of the most in-demand experts on this topic of professional performance and navigating disruption. His clients include fortune 100 companies. He is often asked to keynote at conferences where industry leaders and executives turn to him for new perspectives on how to elevate performance, eliminate disengagement and make work suck less. Yes, we could all benefit from having a better culture to come into and, hey, loving to come into work. So I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Gregory as we discussed the two things that leaders need to know now! Meet Greg Offner, Keynote Speaker, Dueling Pianist and Consultant Jenn DeWall: Hi everyone. It is Jenn DeWall, and I’m so excited to be sitting here with Gregory Offner, Jr. We are talking about the two things that leaders need to know now, now that the future of work is here. Now that heck, we’re likely being asked to do more than what we ever had before, but Gregory, I’m so excited to have you here on The Leadership Habit podcast. If you could just go ahead, tell us your story. What’s your story? Sure. I mean, that’s a huge question. What is your story? Gregory Offner: It is a big question, Jenn, you know, it was 1982, and I saw a bright white light and then was smacked by a doctor and started crying, but that’s a little too far back, so let’s fast forward to make it relevant. Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> I think I had the same experience, Gregory Offner:  You know, in1982, you know, I, I do that in front of audiences, and I have to tell them like now as a new father, I’m legally required to put three dad jokes into my presentation. So if that’s happening in this podcast, there goes number one. Uno. So my story, my story’s a lot. Like most people I meet, I graduated from school and immediately started doing a job that had nothing to do with my degree. I had studied psychology, philosophy and music in school, and so naturally became a sales professional when I got out. 15 years later, I had moved through a few different industries, moved through a few different leadership roles and positions even worked internationally, building some sales teams. And I had kind of become disenchanted with what I was doing. The money was good, but the fulfillment was really lacking. I, I felt like I was sort of just getting through every day and not really giving the best that I could every day. And for my bosses, that was fine. They were getting the productivity they needed, but for me, I would look in the mirror and, and kind of go, is, is this it? And what most people didn’t know was that during that career, during that 15-year career to try and fill that is this it gap that I was feeling, I had started a career in the evening as a professional dueling piano player. So during the day, I would meet with clients in boardrooms, and at night I would serenade patrons in bars and in theaters. And I’ve traveled all over the world doing this. And so I had this really neat existence where during the day I had a nine to five suit and tie type job. And at night, I had a very different experience. But then, in 2015, through overuse misuse, and just a couple factors that contributed physiologically to it, my voice gave out on me, it just stopped working, which I know sounds weird to most people that aren’t vocal professionals, but your voice needs rest. It was scary— because remember,  I’m making my money during the day and my passion during the evening with my voice. And so now, all of a sudden, it’s not working. The doctors tell me it might never work again. I need surgery. If it even has a prayer’s chance of working. And that left me in a place where I was confused and frustrated. I felt alone because I can’t talk to anybody about this cuz my voice wasn’t working. And ultimately, over the next five years, I would go on to have 15 surgeries to repair and rebuild my vocal cords, spend over two months in complete silence while the vocal cords themselves healed, and spend hundreds of hours in voice therapy, relearning how to talk, how to sing again. And in that process, I made the decision I wasn’t going back to that day job. I wasn’t gonna go back and spend what little voice I might have left in my life doing something that I wasn’t 100% super duper into. And that brings us to how we got connected. That now, the work that I do around passion, around engagement, around employee retention, around performing at our best every day with organizations around the world enables me to use all of my interests, philosophy, psychology, music, persuasion, and business skills that I learned from 15 years like we talked about and I get to be on stage in front of others and see those aha moments every day in their eyes, which I know you, you get to do as a facilitator as well. Jenn DeWall:  Yes, no, I think, you know, that’s probably my. What you went through is probably my biggest fear as a speaker is potentially losing my voice. I have multiple sclerosis, and that is potentially something that could happen. How did you, but here’s one question that I also, that as it relates to your story, how did you express your emotions if you couldn’t actually communicate them? Like what techniques did you use to be able to process that? And you know, especially if you’ve never been used to having to adapt in that way before Relearning Communication Gregory Offner:  It is a few things to answer that my, the, my, the dad joke that I now have to insert is that I just have a temper tantrum. I would just stomp my feet and get people’s attention. And that’s not true. What I actually did was pull out an old college trick, and I got a whiteboard. Remember we had whiteboards on our dorm rooms in college, right? So people could leave notes, or they could write silly things if they came back from a party after having a couple too many beers. Well, so I would walk around, I would walk around with a whiteboard and a dry erase marker. And I would have to try to write down my thoughts to, to get involved in a conversation, but I like to make jokes. At least I try to be funny. I like to participate in conversations and it’s very hard to do that when you’re writing. So invariably, I’d wanna contribute something. And by the time I wrote down what I was thinking, the conversation had already moved on. So then I started realizing that the best way to have a conversation with people, if I was gonna be involved, was if we all did a group text. So if I were getting together with friends, we would be out, you know, to eat, and we would just be texting. And it’s really something amazing that the iPhone or smartphones allow us to do, because vocal issues have been around for a long time, certainly longer than cell phones. And so understanding the struggle that folks had to go through before you could text people at dinner. I mean, imagine passing notes throughout an entire dinner when cell phones didn’t exist. So I feel lucky that this happened to me when it happened. One, because it sparked the opportunity for this new life that I live. But two, because I had the technological tools around me to, to at least make it a little easier, to be able to express myself and communicate. Jenn DeWall:  That’s a really powerful story, just in terms of your own resilience, your own adaptability of figuring out, you know, what’s a different way that we can still do and enjoy the things that I want. I think in a lot of those instances, many people can relate myself included. It’s really easy to just stop, take no action and just kind of be at the mercy of the circumstance. So it’s incredibly inspiring to hear your story of how you looked at that. And it actually catapulted you into a completely different life trajectory. That, which is where we are today. Talking about the two things that every leader should know, or the two things leaders should know now, Gregory, what are the two things that you think that leaders need to know today? What are the Two Things Leaders Need to Know Now? Gregory Offner:  Okay. And I wanna preface those two things with one little caveat. I believe that a leader doesn’t have to have subordinates to be a leader when you and I look in the mirror, there’s the person we are responsible for leading every day. So if you’re listening to this and you’re thinking, I’m not a leader, I don’t have the title. You look in the mirror and that’s the person you’re responsible for leading. So these skills are gonna be just as these tips are gonna be just as valuable for you as they will, for someone who runs a company of thousands. But the two things that leaders need to know right now is number one, how to use skill acquisition as a competitive advantage, because if you’re like me and you get your news from somewhere and you’re paying attention to the news that relates to business and talent and staffing and productivity, you know that there’s a skills gap, a widening skills gap right now, as people reshuffle, they think about going solo, doing their own thing and leaving the corporate world. There is this institutional knowledge drain that’s happening as workers leave the workforce and that’s creating this skills gap. So a leader needs to understand how to use skill acquisition, how to use training and development as a competitive advantage right now. And the second part of that, the second thing leaders need to know right now is what skills should we be training and developing? How, how some skills for an organization are like rocket fuel when it comes to increasing productivity and performance. 1.    Leaders Need to Know Skills Acquisition is a Competitive Advantage Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. So let’s level set. How do you define, you know, how to use skill acquisition as a competitive advantage? That sounds like fancy corporate-speak. What does skill acquisition mean? How do we like at the simplest level, Gregory Offner:  It means learning stuff. Jenn DeWall:  <Laugh> Gregory Offner:  Make it real simple. It means learning stuff. We all, throughout life learn in one of two ways. We’re taught by others where we teach ourselves. And my bet is, if you’re listening to this, you’re already a high performer. If you wanna be an even higher performer, you’re taking the initiative and you’re teaching yourself things outside of work, you’re digging in when you have the opportunity to be developed inside of work, but outside of work, your development doesn’t stop. So wouldn’t it make sense if you’re gonna spend your personal time and your personal money, maybe even to develop yourself that you pick the skills to develop, they’re gonna create a rocket-like experience with your career that is gonna propel you exactly where you want to go. Maybe even faster than the people you’re trying to compete with. Absolutely. So this can be a real competitive advantage, not just for an individual, but for an organization. Because when we talk about the competitive landscape, what dictates a company’s success are the people within it. And if those people are faster, better, more adept at learning, unlearning and relearning skills that the business needs, that business is going to Excel. That business is going to experience that rocket fuel like propulsion and they’ll leap out ahead in whatever vertical or whatever market segment or whatever industry they’re they’re playing in. So this, this is industry-agnostic. As my dad would say, this is, this is not specific to the insurance or financial services industry. Where I come from, this can, this can be applied anywhere. Jenn DeWall:  I love that. Well, and I wanna talk about the ability to relearn unlearn. I mean, I know there are probably a lot of people that are with me. I read Adam Grant’s newest book. Think Again, I love that, you know, thinking and reflecting that we all think we know more than we actually do, but that has gotta be one of the biggest challenges that in an organization or a team is to get them to even open their mind, to consider relearning an approach. So I’m curious, what’s your take on how to support people with unlearning and relearning and even being open to doing something that they’ve not done or doing it different than the, what they have before? Gregory Offner:  Yeah, well, it’s what, and so Alvin Toffler is the futurist that that quote comes from, he said the illiterate of the 21st century won’t be those who can’t read or write. It’ll be those who can’t learn, unlearn and relearn. So one, when we talk about what skills we want to develop, I mean, you hit the nail right on the head. A lot of us operate in a closed environment. That is, we’re looking to learn a skill. And then, as Ron Popeil would say if anybody gets that reference from the old, late-night commercial, set it and forget it, remember that infomercial, how do we cook the chicken? You set it and forget it. Jenn DeWall:  I don’t, but I feel like I, I should, because we’re the same age, but I don’t know about this! Gregory Offner:  Go Google it, and look at it on YouTube. It’s hilarious. But here’s my point. When I talk about that, set it and forget it, that closed mentality, the quo has lost its status, and nothing is made that clearer than the pandemic change is going to continue to accelerate. The velocity of change is not stopping. And so the old way of doing business, where you got good at a skill, and then you coasted, that’s no longer going to work for organizations for large organizations for two reasons, predominantly. One, the competitive landscape got a lot tighter. Now that individuals can open up their own businesses. I mean, we need is a PayPal or Venmo account, and Wi-Fi. And depending on what you do, you know, maybe five or maybe Etsy, or maybe you just do it on your own wholly on your own. The barrier for entry in business is much lower, which means that if we’re going to be an organized business and have all of that overhead, all of that li all the liabilities that come with being a large organization, we need to excel with an open approach. That is to say, the new way. Here’s a great quote for you for those folks who just won’t let go of the old way of doing things. “The new way is the right way.” Because this is what I see. When I work with organizations who have very tenured, let’s call them. We’re not gonna call them old, but they’re very tenured employees, right? Long-tenured employees who have been doing it, the air quotes the “right way” for a long time when we start working together. And we talk about some of these new programs and procedures and methodologies that we’re gonna implement, they say, well, that’s, that’s not the right way to do that. See, I’ve been doing this the right way for a really long time. Let me the right way. And that’s when we gently and kindly say, the new way is the right way. And I’m gonna need you to follow along and just give us a day to show you how this is going to work. So the skills that are like rocket fuel, one of those skills is curiosity. Gregory Offner:  Wondering what if, instead of being intent on knowing, I got this quote from Tim Ferris, he asked a lot of his podcast guests. You know, if you could put anything on a billboard, what would it be? And the one guest he was interviewing said, I would put on a billboard, Learn More, Know Less. And that always stuck with me because if we’re willing to say, well, I’m not sure. What do you think we’ve opened ourselves up. We’ve created an open mindset and we’re, we’re ready to learn. Versus, have you ever had a conversation with someone maybe you’re talking about an issue that’s controversial or that’s new, or that’s unproven, and you’ve got your point of view and they say, no, no, no, Jenn, listen, listen. That’s not how it works. Let me tell you how it works. We’ve all had those conversations, and we want to get out of them about as quickly as they started. Yeah. Because that person’s got a closed mindset, that conversation isn’t going anywhere, it’s like beating your head against a brick wall it’s gonna hurt. And it won’t do very much of any good. So one of those skills that we try to develop in the organizations we work with is the skill of curiosity that opens the door for this learning, unlearning and relearning that you were talking about, Jenn. 2.    Leaders Need to Know the Skills That Are Like Rocket Fuel for Productivity Jenn DeWall:  Well, yeah. And the curiosity like starting there, I feel like is it has to be that, or maybe it’s not the foundational skill, but it’s, or like starting point number one. But I feel like that might help some of the people that maybe are more seasoned or tenured and just have a lot of confidence based on the way that they’ve done things. Maybe that’s the skill that will allow them to open up the possibility of dropping that dang ego <laugh> of letting it just, you know, they don’t have to be right. Because you’re right. The, the barrier of entry is incredibly low right now. I think, I don’t even remember the stat that I read yesterday in terms of the amount of millennials and gen Z that are actually really participating in the short gig economy, wanting to just do something different, not necessarily wanting to follow that traditional, like I’m going to stay in this company and just being curious about how are things done? How can we challenge that? Because there’s a lot of workers that are ultimately just choosing that. And I mean, if your organization isn’t curious, then I guess it’s really hard to want to engage. So we’re starting to talk about the skills that are needed right now for rocket place. What are some ways, or to rocket or like rocket fuel, like rocket place, like rocket fuel right Gregory Offner:  Now I’m a rocket man…. Jenn DeWall:  Yeah. And then we’ll start singing Elton John, and everyone’s gonna be happy. Curiosity, like how do you actually practice that? Because I think about the thing that gets in the way, you know, that defense, that, that need to be right or feel like people see you as they’re smart. How do you, what do you practice to allow yourself to be curious when you know that you can default into a judgment? So you can maybe say that you’re smart or kind of where you like, oh, let me tell you what my experience right. We wanna offer and help. What tips do you have to be more curious? The Foundational Skills Triad: Curiosity, Energy Management and Gratitude Gregory Offner:  So you mentioned something. I, I wanna answer that question, but I want to address something you said just a moment ago about, is it a foundational skill. Maybe it’s the foundational skill. So there are seven skills that we’ve identified that are truly transformational when we start to develop them in our people. And of those seven, there are three that are foundational. Curiosity is one of them. We call it the triad, cuz there’s three of them. And in music, a triad is, is basically a chord. It’s playing three notes at the same time. Yeah? So when these three skills are deployed at the same time magic happens. So they are very foundational. Curiosity is one of them, energy is the other, how do we manage our physical energy? How do we manage our emotional energy, our mental energy. And in some cases, even how do we manage our financial energy? Cuz if you’re thinking about all the money you don’t have and all the bills you do have, it’s really hard to be present in the work that you’re doing. So financial literacy is a part of that energy component. And then the last component is gratitude. And I wanted to mention that because gratitude really lifts is that, is that sort of, what’s the expression– the tide that lifts all boats. Yeah. If there’s one place that I can work with someone it’s, it’s gratitude. If I start anywhere, it’s going to be with gratitude because once we have gratitude, everything else opens up. And gratitude is really linked with curiosity. So to your question, you know, how do you practice? How do you become more curious? Yeah, there’s exercises that I work on with my clients and that, and that we go through. And, but the number one thing I think we could start to do to develop more curiosity is to develop our gratitude because the first part of a gratitude exercise is thinking about what we’re grateful for. And if we haven’t done this before, it, it feels kind of hard, feels kinda weird. And once we start, it’s inevitable that we’re gonna run out of the big moments and then we go, oh man, is that it? Is that all I have to be grateful for? And that’s where the magic happens with this process because what makes the gratitude it’s called the three blessings, the exercise that I’m referring to. So in positive psychology I don’t know if this was invented by Martin Seligman but certainly popularized by him. He runs the positive psychology program at the University of Pennsylvania. So the, the three blessings exercises every night or at a time that’s convenient for you. I do mine right before I go to bed. You write down three things that you’re grateful for. It could be three things that happened that day. Three things in life really doesn’t matter. But what’s interesting is that the smaller, these things are the better it is for your practice. So if I opened up, let’s just do this on a fly. So if I open up, I, I use notion. So three things I’m grateful for today. This is from yesterday, I got to fly to Chicago and enjoy an hour drive and a comfortable rental car- that is not an oxymoron friends. It was a comfortable rental car! <Laugh> And present to a room of HR professionals. Number two is I got to hear my daughter being silly on the phone when I called to say hi to her. And I mentioned how she’s starting to be a really great communicator. And number three is that I enjoyed a sandwich, a torta from one of my favorite sandwich shops in Chicago O’Hare airport. And I haven’t been out there since the pandemic started. This was my first gig in Chicago. So I was thrilled to be able to get this sandwich from this sandwich shop! Those, when you think about gratitude are not monumental things, right. But they’re so important to this practice because it trains our brain to start looking for the little things and noticing them. And when we talk about curiosity, it’s I wonder. So as I’m reflecting it’s I wonder what I could be grateful for today. I wonder what if, what if it didn’t have to be winning a million dollar power ball for me to write it down on my gratitude journal? What if it could be as simple as a sandwich in an airport? Leaders Need to Know Curiosity and Gratitude Can Shift Perspective Jenn DeWall:  It’s thinking about, I mean, It’s that shift. Shift into recognizing that we all have so many more things around us than I guess that, you know, going from that scarcity or lack mentality, like we have so much, but yet we’re operating too fast, or we’re too busy or maybe we’re just overwhelmed that we can’t even stop down to or stop and slow down to smell the roses. I love bringing in gratitude. Yes. Gregory Offner:  And, and, and Jenn, it’s also about gaining perspective. So one of the most gratifying experiences for me in terms of international travel we were talking about me going to Africa with my wife on our honeymoon a couple years ago. And while we were there in South Africa, there are townships. If, if someone’s listening and they’re not familiar with what a township is, it’s a ram-shackled development. I mean, development is using that word liberally it’s, it’s where people who can’t afford to live anywhere else live. And they’re generally not living in the best of circumstances and it’s generally not the safest place to live, but it’s, it’s where they live. And so I was very adamant that we take a tour of one of these and not to be disaster tourists, so to speak. But because I really wanted to understand, I mean, I live in Philadelphia, which is the poorest big city in the United States. And so we’ve, we’ve got poverty. I mean, I drive through it every day. But I wanted to understand what it was like in another place. And what, what I, what I had been told was some of the poorest of the poor live in these townships. And we had a really amazing experience because there were only six of us on this tour. We were all about the same age and I guess the guide liked us. So he, he kind of was telling us more and showing us more and then ultimately invited us to go to a bar, basically in this township with him. And I was chatting with one fella at the bar who happened, I guess his kid was just there. I don’t know, maybe three years old max, that the kid was just hanging out. Kid’s smiling, he’s smiling. Everybody’s having a good time. Gregory Offner:  And I said to him, I said, Hey man, do you mind me asking, what do you do? Like, how do you, how do you make money? And he said, oh, I I’m an HVAC technician. Now at least where I live in Philadelphia, HVAC technicians can make 70, 80, a hundred thousand dollars a year. I mean, that’s not a bad job. You certainly would have a home. And I said, man, like that job where I’m from is well-paying. And he said, I know. And I said, does that frustrate you, that you have a great job skill-wise, but your circumstances are having you live in this township here. And he looked at me and he said, I’m smiling. My son’s smiling. I have friends that I get to hang out with. He said, it’s all about perspective. And that has stayed with me ever since that conversation, because gaining perspective is truly how we can appreciate what we have. If we’re not stepping out of the bubble that we live in. And we all live in bubbles, no matter how hard we try, we, we live in bubbles. But if we try at least to step out of it, what we learn about ourselves, what we’ve got is really transformational. And so this exercise, I think, will be so valuable to the listeners to try, because it starts to train the brain to look for those things that to us have become ordinary. It’s like, do you ever go, do you ever go visit a friend’s house for the first time? And you look around and you go, gosh, this is a beautiful house. I wish that I lived in a beautiful house like this, you know, my house, oh, the paint in the one room isn’t even, there’s some paint that’s on the ceiling. It’s not just on the wall, like bled through. And there’s always that crack on the baseboard that I see. And, ah, man, this is just a beautiful house. Maybe I do that because my dad was a carpenter and in construction. And so that’s stuff that I look for. But if you know what I’m talking about, you know that the second, third or fourth time you go over that friend’s house, you notice that there are some places where they have paint on the ceiling too, and where their baseboards are cracked. It’s just a matter of perspective. So give yourself the gift of that perspective of gratitude and watch what happens. Watch the transformation. Jenn DeWall:  I want to go out and like stare and ah, and I think you’re right. There are points where it’s easy. You just forget. I live in the mountains or not in the mountains, but adjacent to. And I can forget about the beauty of the mountains because I see it every single day. Almost every time I walk, I see the mountains and we just need to remind ourselves to see things again. I just love that challenge kind of to asking us to think, how can you see it differently? See something old as new. Maybe I dunno if that’s necessarily the truest way. The Hedonic Treadmill Gregory Offner:  That’s exactly it. It’s about, I mean, it’s about habituation. So in psychology, there’s a term called the hedonic treadmill, and it talks about– the easiest way to exemplify what that means. If you’re not familiar with the term is that let’s say you make $40,000 a year and tomorrow your boss gives you a raise of $50,000. Eventually that $50,000 you will habituate to as the new norm. And it won’t matter. And you’ll need more money to get that same hit of dopamine. That same feeling of accomplishment. If money is how you’re judging your self worth and your accomplishment. Yeah. And you can call that the new car phenomenon and how we go out and get a new car. And then a year later, it’s just my car. It’s not the new car. You’re not necessarily in love with it anymore. Or maybe you get a new romantic partner and then a year later, they’re just that person I live with, I’m not saying that happens. I’m just saying we habituate to what we’re used to. Good and bad. Yeah. Folks put into bad circumstances can habituate to them. And then not notice that they’re in a bad circumstance anymore. Jenn DeWall:  I honestly had this self conversation last night, driving over to bring a meal to a friend and I was driving her car. We just bought a new car in August. So exciting. This is the nicest car I’ve ever owned in my entire life. And I already started to look at it as like, it’s just a car. And last night I had to sit and be like, Jenn, you have a really nice car. It’s I mean, it’s not like a Ferrari, but for like me, like, this is a beautiful, nice car. Like I want to be able to step into it and be like, yes, I get to drive this. This is so exciting. It’s way better than my 2001 Volkswagen Jetta that I had with like broken things. Like I want to be able to constantly remind myself. A Message from Crestcom: Crestcom is a global organization dedicated to developing effective leaders. Companies all over the world have seen their managers transformed into leaders through our award-winning and accredited leadership development programs. Our signature BPM program provides interactive management training with a results-oriented curriculum and prime networking opportunities. If you’re interested in learning more about our flagship program and developing your managers into leaders, please visit our website to find a leadership trainer near you. Or maybe you yourself have always wanted to train and develop others. Crestcom is a global franchise with ownership opportunities available throughout the world. If you have ever thought about being your own boss, owning your own business and leveraging your leadership experience to impact businesses and leaders in your community, Crestcom may be the right fit for you. We’re looking for professional executives who are looking for a change and want to make a difference in people’s lives. Learn more about our franchise opportunity on the Own A Franchise page of our website at Crestcom.com. Leaders Need to Know Energy Management Jenn DeWall:  So – the skills we talked about, curiosity, and you talked about also energy. I wanna go into energy because I don’t know what you, when I entered the coaching space, if I said the word energy to people, it was like I said, the most Fu-Fu like high overly-conceptual word, but I it’s not and not, and not in how I experience. So how do you define energy? Let’s talk a little bit more about that. I know you kind of gave us the, you know, the triad, but what do you mean by energy as a skill? Gregory Offner:  So you, you brought up your car. I’ll tell you, tell you my car story. I am not a sports car guy. I am not even a car guy, but I love the color blue. And I saw advertised online a Corvette, a blue Corvette, and I thought, Hmm. You know, maybe I’ll think about buying this Corvette. And so I started to look at it, the specs, the details, everything about the car and this advertisement. And I went to Kim, my wife, and I said, Hey got a question for you. I know it’s a little out there, but I’m thinking about buying this Corvette. And she gave me that look, and you can all probably hear this look, right. You’ll know it when I make this noise… Right? You know, when you say something stupid and your partner, your friend just does the eye roll, like, okay, go on. And so I said, well, alright, it’s got brand new tires. The whole electronic system has recently been redone, like super dope stereo system. The seats are this gorgeous, like peanut butter leather, you know, like the light with like the dark pin stripy seats in there. It’s manual. I love manual. I haven’t driven a manual car in a long time, but I know how to do it. So like, that’s really cool. It’s just, it’s beautiful. Look at it. And it’s blue. She’s like, how much is it? I said $300. She goes, what? I said. Yeah. The thing is <laugh>, it’s just the shell of the car. They’re selling it without an engine. So I’d have to get an engine. And as like a summer project, my cousins built engines before, put an engine in the car and she goes, what is the point of buying a car without an engine? <Laugh> yeah. And I feel the same way about this concept of energy. That our body is the vehicle for our brain. And if we’re not taking care of that vehicle, I don’t care if you’re an Ivy League graduate, your brain is not functioning effectively. So managing your energy is a business imperative. It’s not frou-frou Lululemon, crunchy granola on a mountaintop at sunrise. It’s a business imperative. And the fact that we don’t emphasize that or help our people understand how to better manage their energy is a crime. I mean, Zig Ziglar. One of my favorite motivational speakers used to have a bit about, would you if you owned a million dollar racehorse, would you let it stay out all night, give it cigarettes and whiskey to drink and then let it come home in the morning. And everybody goes, no, of course, I said, what about a $20 dog? Would you let a $20 dog? If you owned it, let it stay out all night, howling at the moon, drinking whiskey, smoking cigarettes. They said no. He said, what about a $5 cat? He said no. And he said, and yet how many of you spend a night out at a restaurant, late night drinking, maybe having a cigar. You are a billion-dollar asset. You are irreplaceable. And yet we treat ourselves like a car without an engine. That’s a problem. And that’s where the energy really focuses in, on creating change for individuals and the businesses with, and the individuals within your business. Jenn DeWall:  I love the way that you just described that Gregory. I think that’s, I’ve never heard it described like that. I think that’s a perfect way to describe it, and hopefully to drive home the importance of why we need to practice self-care and why we need to make sure that we’re treating ourselves with the utmost respect, love, and just, I don’t know, treating our needs, putting oil in the car, gas in the car at the right times, tuning it up, what we need to do. And I just feel like that’s still the thing that, how do you think people are resistant to like maintaining that in the workplace? Is it because there’s still this place of, we don’t talk about emotions at work. You just put your head down. Like I know that we’re seeing with the future of work. People are starting to be like, no, we have to pay attention to this. This is burnout here. And right now, so many people are stressed. I guess I stacked a lot of questions in there, so that’s probably gotta be real confusing to follow. The Shifting Workplace Culture Gregory Offner:  <Laugh>. Well, no. No, I we’re coming from a culture, and I remember my first year in sales <laugh> now admittedly, I had these Zig Ziglar tapes. So I’m gonna, I I’m, I’ll just tell the story and then I’ll explain why I think it’s ironic and funny. So I remember my first year in sales CEOs would want to schedule a call and they’d say, how early, you know, can we schedule? And this was my first job outta college. I finally have some money. So like, I’m going home and drinking. I’m going out. I finally got some cash, baby. I’m gonna go enjoy my life. That’s how I was living at the time. Now, admittedly, things are different since I was 23 or whatever I was. But so I would say to the CEO I don’t know. I was like nine. And in invariably they would say, look, I’m in the office at six so we can get started. And I would think to myself, I’m sorry, your life sucks. Like we are done this era of who’s in earlier, who stays later Jenn DeWall: Preach!  <laugh> Gregory Offner: We’re done! We’re done. And what the gig economy is a sign of is that people are not willing to sell their life to a company anymore. They’re just not. Cuz that’s what it was. What it was, was a job offer for. Here’s a salary, here’s the benefits. But we’re getting at you anytime we want. You’re a salaried employee. We effectively own you. That was the mentality of most corporate jobs and folks who are entering the workforce. Now, kids, I guess I can say that. Cause I’m 40 kids saw their parents go through this. They saw their parents go through 2008. What do I have to show for all of that sacrifice? And they said, not me. And again, back to that conversation of wifi, peer to peer payment, like we have new tools. We have tools that our parents and their parents didn’t have. And those tools, those new tools require new rules. And you’re seeing the workers of tomorrow, the leaders of tomorrow stand up and demand it. And there’s not a thing that business can do except adapt. So you ask why people are so resistant. I wanna know why businesses are so resistant? Hint- businesses are run by people. So there’s probably a tie in there. <Laugh> It’s, it’s this, it’s this fear of change. And I had to confront that when I was losing my voice and trying to understand what my life was going to look like in the first couple of months, the first year of that process was, was scare, fear rather. I was scared. I was defensive. I was, I mean, I was moving money around trying to guard, how do I put this here? How to put, I was in protection mode. I’m not even 33. What protecting what? Like, dude, you got you hopefully ever whole life ahead of you. Like you protection mode is not where you’re at. You’re not like retirement age. You gotta figure this out. Yeah. And that’s when I started developing the skill of asking better questions and all of this led to increased curiosity. Well, so I, I may have stray a little bit for, from your, from your question there- Jenn DeWall:  That’s okay. And I wanna get back to it cause we didn’t hit this as much yet. And I know in our prep call, we had talked a little bit about the gig economy and really what that is. You can go willing with it or you can go against it, but it is pushing organizations to change because it’s changing the way or the expectations that workers have. Why, you know, talking about what the gig economy is. And maybe we can level set to what that is for someone that is still, maybe unfamiliar. Hasn’t heard that term before. Why do we need to bring the big or the gig economy into the traditional workplace? Because these are, that’s what some of these skills are curiosity, right? Like that’s what you were driving toward energy. Why do we need to bring that into the workplace? Gregory Offner:  Yeah. So I mean, if I go back to thinking about like the Mad Men era of business you made and met professional friends, you know, you get outta college and folks move on and they move geographically. So you made new friends at work. Well, we’ve got social media, we’ve got all sorts of ways to interact with and meet people all over the world. So work no longer needs to be this social club that people go to and, and maybe, you know, for good reason, it, it shouldn’t be anymore. Folks wanna go to work, do something, and then leave. Whatever that something is, needs to be quantified by the employer. But previously the employer didn’t have to put that much thought into it, cuz it was just expected that you show up at nine, you leave at five we’ll figure out what to do with you in between, here’s your money and folks are going no, no that, that don’t work anymore. Putting Productivity Before Physical Presence Gregory Offner:  Cause see, I can make money here over here on my own. I can make money here over here with my friend. We can start this other business. There’s a lot of negatives right? To the gig economy. For sure we can. We, we don’t, we can avoid that for this conversation and focus on the one positive. The gig economy allows people to show up, engage fully complete their job efficiently and effectively, and go on with their life. And business is so resistant to this idea ex unless you’re in sales, if you’re in sales, you can make your quota and then you can goodbye. You can go golf. You can go to Tahiti. I mean, it depends on what you’re, you know, what type of boss you have. But generally if you’re in sales and you’ve, you’ve met your number, nobody cares what you do with your day. You’ve done what’s expected of you. Jenn DeWall:  I wish that organizations knew that. I’ve a few friends in sales and it’s always like, oh yeah, I hit my numbers in February this year. So now I get to coast and anything I make on top of this, like that is just so foreign to me to look at. But it makes sense in terms of I hit the numbers, I hit the targets. I created value in the way that, you know, I overly exceeded it. I don’t even know what other organizations would do to put that level of trust into people to extend that. Or so many other things to change and evolve. Gregory Offner:  Well, the first thing they’d have to do is they’d have to decide exactly what they want done. And so this is gonna put more of the onus on, on the leaders, on the managers, to better define what success looks like in a given day. And then they’ve also gotta provide an offramp for accelerated success. So using in the insurance world, let’s say there’s an account manager and their job is to create certificates of insurance, a lot of administrative stuff relating to policies and policy holders. So what if the bosses figured out exactly how many cert certificates need to be issued a day? How many of this and that, and the other item need to get done each day and then said, all right, if you decide to do this much extra, here’s the bonus we’ll give you, they need to start paying for productivity or else. The employees are going to choose options that will pay for productivity. Because I’ve met very few people who are like, I can’t wait to go to the office and sit there and watch Netflix and pop my head up over my cubicle, like a little cubicle gopher every five minutes to make sure that when the boss is coming, I open up a spreadsheet and pretend I’m doing something like who likes that game? Nobody. Jenn DeWall:  No, I, you know, I, I mean it is time for a change. Like I worked for a large organization, and I just remember it, it, you know, how stifling or how much your motivation and even your sense of like why bother being productive? I think about a corporate culture where it was expected. Like first one in last one out, like you must be really just slaying your business, doing really great, but then you got no reward for being efficient. And the only reward that you got was essentially met with, well, it seems like you’re not doing your job because we looked at you and you were doing this, even though we didn’t look at your performance, we just looked at the time in and out. And it was, it drove me bananas, like I would see. And I still think that there are organizations where people are held to that standard of prove it to me, how much you want this and they are productive. But the only way that they’re supposed to prove it is by being in and out at these certain times, instead of saying, are you efficient? Because why would I continue to be efficient then if I still have to be there for the full day? Like, why would I be efficient? Greg Solves the Traffic Problem! Gregory Offner:  This? This is why traffic in America will never get better. My dad, I told you earlier is in construction. And the first day on a job site, if you’re new to the crew, you learn what speed they work at. Doesn’t matter how fast you can get a wall up. It matters how fast they’ve decided they’re putting walls up. And if you don’t fall in, they will push you out. Because there is no incentive to build that house, to build that structure any faster than you absolutely have to because, oh, they’re all paid hourly. So let’s just get to the end of the day. Don’t break your back, literally and figuratively, and let’s go have some beers. Same thing with road crews, same thing with road crews. So what if, what if instead we realigned incentives? What if, what if we created a situation where let’s say repairing a stretch, a five mile stretch of I-95, right? That’s a road here in the east. If you’re on the east coast, you know, I, 95, it’s the misery <laugh>. So let’s say repairing a five mile stretch of I-95. And I don’t know, these numbers are gonna be way off, but let’s say it’s worth $30,000 to every worker, right? Let’s pretend that’s a great number. I don’t know. And let’s say that it’s project it to get done in six months, five mile stretch repaired in six months. Great. If that crew gets it done in eight months, they still get $30,000. But if they get it done in three months, they get $30,000. They effectively double the value of that job to them. And we all know that road work is not going away. So it’s not a question of, we don’t wanna do it faster cuz there won’t be any more jobs! Buddy. There’s more jobs. Gregory Offner:  There’s more jobs for road workers for sure. But the question and the pushback that would naturally come next is, well, they’re gonna cut corners. It won’t be safe. This is what I mean by realigning incentives. So if you pay the workers, the production workers per project, and then you pay the supervisors and the safety engineers and the auditors per hour. So they’re incentivized to go as slow possible. Take the extra time to check every defect, just make the double-check. Let’s make sure it’s done right. And you have the workers pushing against them. Come on, come on, let’s hurry up. We want it. We wanna get this done. Right? We wanna get outta here. The workers are now incentivized to come up with more efficient, safer, more effective ways to get that job done. Everybody wins! So why aren’t we doing it? Jenn DeWall:  Why aren’t that’s because we need to. And in conclusion, we need to be willing to relearn. <Laugh> like, I love that you’ve provided so many great examples of what we can do. Why maybe we need to be curious, you know, going back to that foundational skill of thinking, like I forget, what did you say in the beginning as it relates to defining your future success? Like the plan is you’re doing the plan right now or right now, the way you’re doing it is the right way. I forget exactly the language. Gregory Offner:  Oh, I see what you’re asking about. Yeah. So it’s the new way is the right way, is a way of thinking about those folks who are a bit resistant to change. And you know, let’s say you’re a new manager out there and you got that old salt on your team. That’s been doing it for 30 years and you’re, you know, you’re the junior Lieutenant. So to speak, to, to use an army reference. And they say, well, listen, listen, young whipper snapper. Does anybody say that anymore? Listen here. Listen here, sonny. Yeah. I’ve been here for 30 years and there’s a way that we do it. A perfectly acceptable response is to look at that individual and say, I appreciate that. But the new way is the right way. So let’s get through this together. Let’s figure out how we can win together. It’s Not About Being Certain – Learn, Unlearn, Relearn! Gregory Offner:  Cause that’s what it’s about. It’s not about being right. It’s not about being certain, you know, talking about, learn a no lesson and learn more. It’s not about being certain. It’s not about being right. It’s about making progress and moving forward, the folks who wanna stop progress tend to have a vested interest in the way things are. And so we have to have an honest question with them about, okay, what is the purpose of the work that we’re doing? What is the impact of the work that we’re doing? And then when we look at processes, I’d invite every leader here to turn themselves into a process hunter, to stop trying to justify a new way and start forcing the justification of the current way. If you didn’t do it this way today, would you start? That’s a great question to take back to your organizations, look at a process, any process, the way you track sales data, the way people clock in and clock out. If it wasn’t being done this way today, would we look at this and go, this is the best way for us to do this. If not, it’s time for a change. Where to Find Gregory Offner Jenn DeWall:  I’d love that. That’s a great, closer, Gregory. How can the audience get in touch with you? How can they hire you, bring you in. Gregory Offner:  So I wanna, I wanna give them more than we had really time to go over today. I wanna give them access to all of those seven keys. So the first thing I’d invite them to do is to take out their smartphone and text the word “keys” text the word, K E Y S to the number 33777. So if you do that, if you text the word keys to 33777, I’m gonna send you, I think it’s gonna ask for your email and your phone numbers or, well, it’ll have your phone number and your name so I can send it to you personally. But I will send you a one-sheet with these seven keys of success so that you can decide how you wanna move forward. Maybe you, you get a book or you watch a Ted Talk or I can help you if you want some extra help in your organization with this development. And if you don’t have access to texting 33777, I’ve been told this works all over the world. You can go to my website, GregoryOffner.com. There’s a button on there that says “Email Gregory“, send me an email, mention this podcast. I’m happy to send it to you. And then if you just wanna connect and see pictures of my daughter and where I’m at from place to place, you know what sandwiches I’m eating in airports across the universe, you can follow me on Instagram at GregoryOffnerJr. Or I’m also on LinkedIn. I I’d love to connect with you there. And tell me what stood out in this episode. Tell me what meant the most to you. What you’re gonna put into practice. I really do wanna hear from you. Jenn DeWall:  I love that Gregory. Thank you so much for all the insights. I would love to have you back on the podcast again, just to have another discussion, but thank you so much for giving your time, your energy and your expertise to The Leadership Habit audience. We are very grateful for you. Gregory Offner:  It’s a privilege and a pleasure, Jenn, thank you so much. Jenn DeWall:  Thank you so much for listening to this week’s episode of The Leadership Habit podcast with Greg Offner. I love my conversation with him. I felt like he just had such great energy and insight, but I know what you’re thinking. Okay. I want to implement this competitive advantage right now. I want my people learning, unlearning. That’s the important piece in relearning quickly and effectively, but where do I start? Gregory is offering us access to his performer’s process overview as a special thank you for our listening guests. Just go to GregoryOffner.com/perform. And you can get access to this video series right now. Absolutely free, no spam, just results. And, of course, if you want help with your additional leadership needs to focus on engagement, communication, storytelling, or innovation, reach out to Crestcom. We would love to come in and offer a two-hour complimentary leadership skills workshop. And if you enjoyed today’s podcast episode, please leave us a review on your favorite podcast streaming service. Or, if you know someone that could benefit from hearing Gregory’s message, share it with them. Thank you so much for listening! Until next time.   The post Two Things Leaders Need to Know Now with Gregory Offner appeared first on Crestcom International.