Sub Club by RevenueCat

In this episode, you’ll hear about:The pros and cons of selling an app on your own versus going through a brokerWhat to watch out for during negotiationsWhat to expect after selling your appFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingEric Owens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericowens/Here’s the Outline of Our Interview with Eric:(1:00) Eric and David have worked together before!(1:25) How Eric became an app broker.(5:09) The top reasons app developers decide to sell their businesses; capital gains taxes; David’s experience selling his first app.(8:03) Why people buy app businesses.(10:11) Do app buyers typically purchase successful apps or fixer-uppers?(13:35) The benefits of selling a successful app “prematurely;” David’s Mirror app.(15:25) The challenges of selling iOS apps: iCloud, Passbook, Sign In with Apple, Catalyst; Gas Cubby.(19:13) How app business valuations are calculated; the App Store Small Business program.(23:34) Adding subscriptions to an app increases its value to buyers.(26:51) What kind of documentation you should have in place before selling your app.(28:34) How buyers approach purchasing an app from a solo developer.(30:27) Finding app buyers.(33:33) App business sales increased during the COVID-19 pandemic.(34:00) The pros and cons of selling your app on your own; Flippa.(39:17) Going through a broker helps you stay emotionally detached during the negotiation process.(40:35) Fiduciary duties; representing app buyers versus sellers.(42:38) What to watch out for during negotiations; low-ball offers; due diligence.(48:17) The app sale closing process; escrow.com; closing costs.(50:21) Brokerage fees; working with Eric.(51:00) What comes after an app sale? Non-compete agreements; handoffs.(57:00) Connect with Eric on LinkedIn or get in touch at appbusinessbrokers.com.Quotes:“Any business with any kind of subscription revenue is always going to sell for higher, no matter what it is. Buyers love that... The one move you can make in any business that will increase your valuation is to add some kind of subscription revenue.” - Eric“As I get later in my life, [I’ve realized] brokers are amazing. Think about it: as an app developer, you spend 99% of your time being an app developer, right? And then you have this 1% critical action, which is the sale… It’s really useful to have somebody on your side who’s done this before and can tell you what you’re doing that’s wrong and what you’re doing that’s right.” - Jacob“If you’re an inexperienced seller of something, get somebody to help you out.” - Jacob“I forget what I paid Eric; it was probably $20,000 or $30,000. But to me, I saw it as worth every penny because he helped bring the market that got the highest and best value of the app… Having access to that pool of buyers and having Eric’s experience helping me walk through it, I think it made up the [cost] of whatever I paid him in the valuation that I got in the sale.” - David“I’ve sold three apps, and it’s been huge for me. It’s helped pay off debt, it’s helped put a little money away, and helped me sleep better at night. There’s a lot of reasons to do it.” - David“There’s a lot of people who can’t make [apps]. I think as indie app people, we just kind of take for granted — because we hang out on Twitter with a bunch of other people who know how to make apps — that it’s not that unique. And it’s a tough business; it’s not always easy to make an app that’s going to make you a lot of money. But if you factor in… the fact that not everybody can make these things, that can be a really useful tool for you to unlock liquidity earlier than you would otherwise.” - Jacob“I think people should have the mindset… that you are building an asset that you can sell someday if you want to. You don’t ever have to, but build something that is sellable. If people can treat it more as an investment, that can see people through some of the dark times, the challenges of being an entrepreneur.” - EricLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Leon Sasson, Co-Founder & CTO at Rise Science, a company dedicated to helping people overcome sleep challenges, feel better, and be more productive.Since its inception in 2014, Rise has primarily focused on elite athletes, helping some of the top NFL, NBA, and college football teams with their sleep. But in 2019 they decided to enter the consumer subscription space, which became even more important in 2020 as COVID challenged their B2B model. Leon and the team at Rise went from no experience in consumer subscriptions in late 2019 to over $500k in ARR today.In this episode, you’ll hear about:The blurring line between B2B and consumer SaaSA/B testing and subscription lifestyle analysisHow to create a fantastic onboarding experience for your usersFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingLeon Sasson: https://twitter.com/leonsassonHere’s the Outline of Our Interview with Leon:(1:25) Leon’s background in sleep research and the founding of Rise; FitBit.(3:38) Rise started as a solution for elite athletes; the NFL; sleep hardware devices.(4:38) How the COVID-19 pandemic prompted Rise to switch to consumer subscriptions.(5:26) The difference between the B2B product and the Rise app.(7:13) Pre-launch user cohorts and test strategies; TestFlight; Typeform.(9:36) How Apple responded to the switch from B2B to consumer app; Notion; the Apple App Review process.(11:32) Selling digital services to enterprises; Salesforce.(16:01) How other products are investing in enterprise; Slack; Calm; Headspace; Kaiser Permanente.(18:08) App user licenses; Family Sharing; Business vs. Personal SaaS.(23:00) User onboarding best practices; Leon’s controversial opinion on adding friction.(32:18) A/B testing and statistical significance; user research.(39:31) Simultaneous experiments; R.(41:52) The downstream effects of A/B experiments; counter-metrics; monthly subscriptions and free trials.(47:57) Subscription lifecycle analysis; RevenueCat charts; Amplitude.(50:00) Pricing consumer apps; the freemium model.(51:56) Connect with Leon on Twitter or by email at leon@risescience.Quotes:“The most important thing you can do for your health and energy during the day is sleep.” - Leon“I would suggest to anybody who’s in that pre-launch phase, if you can get some situation … where you have a trickle of users and you can start to make decisions integrated with user feedback, that’s so much better than flying blind.” - Jacob“The activation energy of one consumer subscriber is so much lower than one enterprise deal.” - Jacob“You need to figure out who’s the person that buys your product at a company—and what do they care about and what do they need to justify the budget? And if you do, it’s great because they can pay more than consumers. And I think that’s sort of the holy grail. You can sell the same product for more expensive because they get more value [out of your product].” - Leon“There are ways to sell services outside of the App Store. It’s just generally a way worse experience for users.” - Leon“The [purpose] of onboarding is never to show people how to use the app. People don’t really want a tutorial—if you need a tutorial, it’s too complicated. They just want to know how what you’re doing and what your product is doing affects their lives and why they should care about it.” - Leon“The key for your onboarding … is that you match intent to friction. Part of the reason best practices around onboarding are to reduce friction is because people come into so many apps with so much less intent… You just have to match that.” - David“Testing is not going to make a great product. Having a really good A/B testing organization and team that can A/B test is not going to lead to the best product ever.” - Leon“You can much more easily A/B test your way into a bad product than into a good product if product isn’t the focus around the testing.” - DavidLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

App marketing expert Thomas Petit discusses the importance of paid user acquisition, the evolution of app marketing, optimizing user conversion on Facebook, the limitations of IDFA for tracking, and app marketing challenges in the post-IDFA era.

Our guests today are Majd Taby and Jasper Hauser, co-founders of the Apple Design Award-winning app, Darkroom.Prior to founding Darkroom, Majd spent time at Apple, Facebook, and Instagram working as a product-focused engineer. Alongside Darkroom, Majd has also published a photobook documenting the Syrian Refugee Crisis.Jasper is a 3-time Apple Design Award winner, with 18 years of industry experience in creating digital products and mentoring people. Prior to founding Darkroom with Majd, Jasper founded Sofa, which was acquired by Facebook in 2011.In this episode, you’ll hear about:What Apple looks for in a featured appWhy getting press isn’t always great for conversionsThe benefits and drawbacks of bootstrapping your appFollow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingMajd Taby: https://twitter.com/jtabyJasper Hauser: https://twitter.com/jasperhauserHere’s the Outline of Our Interview with Majd and Jasper:(2:06) Majd’s feature on The Launched Podcast; Jasper’s feature on Design Details.(3:08) Majd’s background at Instagram and passion for photography; Matt Brown.(5:00) How Darkroom was founded; iOS 8 PhotoKit.(6:04) What differentiates Darkroom from other photo editing apps.(9:23) Jasper’s background in design and photography; joining the Darkroom team.(11:19) Why Apple featured Darkroom so heavily after launch; The Factory; Rdio.(13:46) Darkroom’s pricing structure and business model; VSCO; Snapseed.(18:09) How useful is it to have your app featured by Apple?(19:03) Frustrating aspects of App Analytics traffic attribution.(21:39) What happened after Darkroom launched—and plateaued.(24:36) Product-market fit: Darkroom had 450,000 MAUs and was making $70,000 per year even after Majd stopped working on it; Heap.(30:58) Combining Apple’s design principles with Facebook’s analytical, process-driven thinking.(33:06) User feedback, experimentation, and lessons learned.(37:04) The switch from in-app purchases to subscriptions; grandfathered IAP users.(40:28) Is the subscription model right for every app?(42:46) How users reacted to Darkroom adding subscriptions.(45:40) The CSS Flywheel.(46:00) Why Majd and Jasper haven’t taken VC money.(50:40) Darkroom’s $5M goal; diversification and optimization strategies.(57:50) Why Facebook ads aren’t right for every app; organic growth versus paid acquisition.Quotes:“When Apple features your app, it’s great and you get a lot of downloads. But those are often very low-intent users.” - David“Apple featuring you in and of itself might not be always the most valuable, just from a conversion perspective. But when you think about it from a legitimizing you as a company or product perspective, it is extremely useful.” - Jasper“Part of why a lot of indie apps just don’t ever make sense or get built is like, if you can go make $200k+ at Facebook, $120k really is not comparable. A lot of indies are sacrificing to keep the app going.” - David“Indie is still an investment. I don’t think we as an industry actually appreciate that. Majd made an investment. I made an investment. Not by putting cash in the company but just like living literally off our own savings.” - Jasper“The hardest part… is having the conviction that the path is worth going on and will lead us to a place (and then scale) that is worth spending the energy to get there. And the second part of that is saying no to every opportunity along the way to just like go chase the money.” - Majd“We had tried really, really hard to make Darkroom a smooth experience for our free tier. We removed so much friction that people started slipping.” - Majd“We tried a lot of different things. There wasn’t like one thing we did and then the revenue doubled—no. It was like we tried 15 things and all of those cumulatively led to revenue doubling.” - Jasper“Always be eager and looking for the easiest path forward and the path that’s most likely to match what you care about… I think that’s important. You’re the ones who are going to wake up every day and do this thing, so do what you want.” - JacobLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Ryan Jones, long-time indie developer of Weather Line and Flighty. Before going full-time on his apps in 2019, Ryan spent time in operations at Apple and as Entrepreneur-in-Residence at McGarrah Jessee, a full-service product marketing agency.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(3:53) Ryan’s background in mechanical engineering and the oil industry.(6:35) Ryan’s first app, Weather Line, hit #12 in the App Store(11:09) Weather Line’s Super Forecast(16:21) Networking with famous app bloggers as a growth hack; the “reply guy”(34:41) The fine line between zero tracking and anonymous tracking.(44:31) Integrating customer feedback into your app; user studies.(46:22) Ryan’s controversial opinion on customer support.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingRyan Jones: https://twitter.com/rjonesyQuotes:“When I talk to people about apps… the first thing that they say is, ‘What makes it different?’ And I have to answer that question. And in my head, I know all the tiny little things that add up to make it different. But [that question] really does cut through what users are trying to figure out… just tell me what makes it different.” - Jesse“Being clear and clearly communicating that value prop is more important than it being clever or this, like, amazing brand.” - David“If you’re helpful, people pay attention. If you’re not just… asking for stuff [and] saying stupid stuff… If you talk to press, if you talk to influential people, if you’re actually helpful and give helpful responses and [are] insightful and blog about things and talk about things—that’s how you get people’s attention.” - David“A good way to bootstrap a following is to have something interesting to say.” - Jacob“There is a niche market for privacy-centric digital products, and that niche will probably grow—but as a percentage of the entire market, it probably is a single digit-percentage. And maybe it’s going to grow… but I doubt we’re going to see half the market reading those things and picking apps based on privacy labels and stuff like that.” - David“I was a pretty big [user tracking] naysayer before I had more experience. I was like, ‘You don’t really need that—just listen to your users, talk to them in customer support and Twitter, and do user studies. [But] you… can’t really get a replacement for [tracking customer behavior]… You just have to do it in a respectful way.” - Ryan“User studies are key, and it’s a thing I constantly remind myself to do. And it’s freaking painful, if we’re being honest. It’s hard work. They just want to tell you the small little fix that they want you to do. But nine times out of ten, the reason that they want that small little fix is because you failed at something way upstream—and you have to keep digging at it to get it. And it’s hard.” - Ryan“The people who email you and ask support questions, they’re the ones who care. They’re your real customers. The people who don’t care, they just stop using the app—they’re gone, they’re out.” - David“It’s not a bad sign when you have lots of support [tickets]. That’s a good sign, actually.” - Jacob“Who writes in? It’s folks that have found the edge of your product. And that’s super useful as a product creator. They have found where your product doesn’t quite meet their need, or they have been frustrated. Sometimes it’s a simple thing… and you answer that question, but you learn a little bit… It also gives you some data around the trade-offs you’ve made.” - Jacob“You have to make a decision: Is support a cost center for your company? Or is it part of the product?” - JacobLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Our guest today is Ed Zitron, the founder and CEO of EZPR, a media relations company based in San Francisco. Ed has worked with everyone from drone-maker Skydio to game-maker PUBG to app-maker SmartNews. He has a unique approach to media relations and is quite effective at helping his clients get results.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(4:41) Why PR is so much more difficult these days; Facebook; Cambridge Analytica; Theranos.(11:37) Joanna Stern may be the best tech journalist working today; The Verge; Engadget.(12:55) Does cold emailing tech journalists still work?; DoNotPay.(16:42) How to pitch your app to a tech journalist; Sarah Perez.(18:38) Getting press coverage in large vs. niche publications; catering to journalists’ interests; Skydio.(26:40) Make it super easy for tech journalists to write about your app; hero images.(27:57) You should hire a PR agency if you truly have a special app; Wyze; Meater.(30:04) Don’t waste money on a press release—you don’t need one; Unbox Therapy.(33:13) PR vs. direct marketing; Cheddar.(46:15) The best way to interact with journalists: Be human, be useful, and be respectful; Suhail Doshi.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingEd Zitron: https://twitter.com/edzitronQuotes:“Journalists generally want to hear about things they’re interested in or their readers might be interested in. Seems obvious, but it is not. Indeed, many PR people do not act that way.” - Ed“I feel like tech journalism needs more [joyful enthusiasm]. It is a lot of fun watching someone whose job it is to be critical genuinely be won over by something.” - Ed“The big secret of PR is that every journalist pretty much tells you what they want if you go on Twitter and read their tweets and articles.” - Ed “If you’re working with a PR agency, go month-to-month, first of all. Don’t sign on for multiple months—just don’t do it. But also I would argue you want to make sure that there are actually journalists writing about this sort of thing.” - Ed“As an app developer, there’s nothing wrong with you reading a whole bunch of stuff and emailing the reporter with 90-110 words and saying, ‘This is my app, this is what it does, this is why it’s good.’” - Ed“You have to think about [a journalist’s] motivation, what their job is. Their job is to inform readers, and cynically, at some point, it’s also to get clicks. There is an aspect of understanding their business model.” - David“When you’re early on, the best thing to do is go look for those niche publications, niche YouTubers, niche sources of attention that are really so deep into your target market, and that’s going to be 10X more effective than cold emailing TechCrunch. And then as you grow and have a broader-market app, then you can think about working with Ed.” - David“An agency can cost between $8,000 and $25,000 a month. If you look at that and it’s going to be make-or-break money for your business, it’s the wrong time to do PR.” - Ed“Start smaller. Start with people who are going to really care… People who are really into what you’re doing are so much more effective than a lukewarm writeup on TechCrunch.” - Ed“[PR] is not this one-in, one-out thing. It’s this beat of a drum. You’re building… a brand. Sometimes brand leads to downloads. Sometimes it leads to hiring people. Sometimes it leads to investors. It’s building this portfolio of social proof that you’re something.” - JacobLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.

Faye Keegan, CTO of Dipsea, discusses the growing popularity of audio, building a content library, challenges of building a sexual wellness app, Dipsea's tech stack, scaling a SaaS app team, expanding into new use cases, user engagement, and the future of Dipsea.

Eric Crowley, investment banker with GP Bullhound, discusses the future of consumer subscription software (CSS) and predicts 50 more publicly-traded CSS businesses in 10 years. They explore the rise of subscription-only CSS services in Web 3.0 and compare cost structures between CSS and SaaS. They also delve into the evolving investment ecosystem and emphasize the positive trajectory of CSS businesses. Overall, the podcast explores the growth and opportunities in the CSS space.

Darius Mora is the Chief Marketing Officer at Reflectly, the world’s largest journaling app. Reflectly is consistently in the top 5 Health & Fitness iPhone apps in the US, competing with companies 10X its size. Over the past 6 months, Reflectly has broadened its scope, acquiring 8 new apps in the mental fitness space.Darius has been in the app space for almost a decade and founded 4 app startups prior to joining Reflectly in 2018. He’s been focused on ASO, free marketing, paid user acquisition, and retention for both Android and iOS apps.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(2:58) How Darius joined Reflectly.(4:48) How Reflectly added subscriptions and grew to 12 million users.(13:40) 3 solutions for getting past the growth “glass ceiling;” second product-market fit.(18:57) User retention and churn; the “leaky bucket;” Apple’s 85/15 revenue split.(24:52) A quick and easy hack for boosting retention: add paid subscriptions.(29:28) Split-testing strategies; Amplitude; Mixpanel; RevenueCat.(44:43) Advertising on TikTok vs. Instagram.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingDarius Mora: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moravcikFollow Reflectly:WebsiteApp StoreGoogle Play StoreInstagramTwitterQuotes:“I’ve had 25 apps on the App Store, and I feel like I’ve learned more from the failures than the successes.” - David“[With my first app] we made all the usual mistakes… we spent half a year building it without talking to a single user, released it — crickets.” - Darius11:30 “I think in SaaS, but also in consumer apps, the need for capital is going down… infrastructure can be rented, things can be experimented with and scaled very cheaply. It really doesn’t take what it used to to get something off the ground. And I think, strategically, it’s really smart because the leaner you are, the more options you have — and options are leverage.” - Jacob“It does feel like we’re in the middle of a gold rush. There’s just huge opportunities and shiny objects every day, all around. So the hard thing is staying focused — and are you willing to wait out 5 years until you start generating that recurring annual revenue?” - Darius“Most of the things that vendors are selling at conferences [solve] problems that are fixed by a better product.” - Darius“Unless you have really good retention, you shouldn’t be doing anything else — none of the other stuff will matter.” - Darius“You can’t fix bad retention with better growth strategies.” - Darius“Retention is a metric that measures product-market fit; it’s not a goal in itself. If you don’t have retention, it’s not a retention problem — it’s a product-market fit problem.” - Jacob“The truth is, a lot of times monetization is easier than retention. If you can figure out how to build an amazing product that works, monetization is not really difficult.” - Darius“It’s nice to get annual subscriptions because you get all the money up front, but a lot of times companies will get more money from doing the monthly because you can price it higher compared to the annual. And you get a higher LTV down the line, but it comes after a couple of months instead of all the money up front. So depending on what stage you’re in and how much pressure you [have for] scaling, you can decide which one you’re going to push more.” - Darius“When you’re running ads on any platform, it’s quantity over quality. Don’t show the market what you think is good. Show them everything you’ve got, and they’ll tell you what’s good.” - Darius

Today on the podcast we have two guests from Big Sky Health: Vu Pham, who works on the product team, and his colleague Nick Robinson, Chief Business Officer.Big Sky Health was founded to help people live healthier, longer lives with the help of technology. They are currently working on 3 apps: Zero, the world's most popular fasting app, Less, an app for more mindful drinking, and Oak, a meditation and breathing app.In this episode, you’ll hear about:(6:07) Zero helped create the “fasting app” category.(9:17) How Zero is scaling health advice to millions of patients; Dr. Peter Attia.(13:13) Striking a balance between free features and paywalled premium content.(25:44) Data tracking; long-term revenue goals and retention.(32:38) Balancing a mission-driven mindset with paid conversions and return on ad spend.(41:33) Business success metrics; ARR; volume vs. conversion.(46:15) Forecasting ARR with auto-renewal status; A/B tests; churn.Follow Us:David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnardJacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeitingVu Pham: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vuprofile/Nick Robinson: https://twitter.com/njrconceptsZero Fasting Links:WebsiteApp StoreGoogle Play StoreInstagramTwitterQuotes:“We’re in this place now where we have these small apps that are really interactive, engaging, content delivery platforms — and they allow these people with value to add to people’s lives to reach them in a way… that television, radio, books, or podcasts never could.” - Jacob“It’s using content plus technology, forming community modes around it — but it’s all about amplifying these niche desires, these niche needs that people have. And you kind of turn into a mini TV network that’s better and it’s optimized.” - Nick“We know a lot about you as a user, what your goals are, where you are in your health journey, and we can contextually provide content to you in the moment of need.” - Nick“Working with RevenueCat made our steps leading up to launch a lot easier.” - Vu“I hear this all the time from devs who are nervous about this transition. They’re always nervous about, ‘Oh, what are these people gonna say?’ And there are a lot of public examples of apps getting beat up about [monetizing], and I’m like, ‘Listen, you were subsidizing them — they really weren’t your customers. They really didn’t see the value in it that you do. It’s your product; you’re resetting where that value bar is. So if they’re upset, it’s like, ‘Well… it was good while it lasted. I’m sorry, but I’ve got to move on.” - Jacob“[Free users] are huge vectors for growth for a business like this because those people, even if they’re not paying you dollars, they’re telling their friends, they’re using [your app], they’re engaging more deeply.” - Jacob“It’s crazy the number of people that do a first download of Zero from a text message. It’s huge.”- Nick“For the same revenue earned, would you rather have a small user base and a really, really high conversion rate? Or would we rather have a really small conversion rate, but a huge user base?” - VuLike this episode?Subscribe to Sub Club on Spotify or Apple Podcasts to get the latest news on mobile subscription apps.