Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

Live Therapy with Veena: Part 2 of 3 Last week you heard the first half of the session with Veena, a young woman who was devastated by a medical problem that may make it difficult or impossible to conceive the child she is dreaming of. Today, you will hear the inspiring and dramatic conclusion of her story, along with the feedback comments from the individuals in David and Jill's Tuesday training group who witnessed the live work. A = Assessment of Resistance Jill asked if she felt ready to roll up her sleeves and get to work on some aspect of what she’d been telling us, and she was. Jill then asked what she was hoping to get from tonight’s session. If we could offer a “Miracle Cure,” what would that look like? She said, “I’d feel a lot less guilty and responsible, so I would no longer feel like the problem was my fault. I’d know that I did my best and that I can be okay even if people don’t like me or judge me. Jill asked the Magic Button question, and she said that she love to see her guilt go all the way to zero, but not her many other negative feelings, like depression, anxiety, inadequacy, self-consciousness, hopelessness, upset, insecurity and self-doubt. With Positive Reframing in mind, we listed many of the positives in these negative feelings, including: Sadness. This feeling shows that I care for people and want to give them the best. It shows that I also care for my own dreams of having a baby. And it shows how much I love my mother. Anxiety, worry. This is a warning signal, reminding me to be alert and do my best, and do what the doctors require. Guilt. Shows that I’m humble and willing to be accountable and examine what I’ve done and look at my own mistakes. Self-Consciousness. Protects me by making me cautious so I don’t just blurt out everything. Defectiveness. I see my flaws, and allows me to get closer to others, and to feel happy for the success of others. Hopelessness. When I told my husband I felt hopeless, he became SO supportive. Also, I gave myself some space so I could create an action plan. You can see the goals Veena set for each emotion on her Daily Mood Log if you click HERE. Veena with her in-laws M = Methods During the methods phase of the session, we used a variety of techniques, especially Externalization of Voices with the Acceptance Paradox, Self-Defense, and the CAT (Counterattack Technique.) We did quite a few role-reversals, which is typical, before Veena got to wins that were “huge.” There were lots of tears and laughter, and eventually Veena blew all of her negative thoughts out of the water. It was inspiring to observe this process, and to be a part of it. You can see her final Daily Mood Log if you click HERE. I think it is fair to say the Veena experienced a kind of enlightenment which was profound. Final T = Testing You can see Veena’s end-of-session Brief Mood Survey and Evaluation of Therapy Session if you click HERE. You can also see her final Daily Mood LOG if you click here. Our work with Veena was some of the most inspiring work that I can recall. It was tremendously mood-uplifting, and took on a spiritual quality. You will have to listen to the session to get a feel for how majestic it was. But in my opinion, Veena did not just recover, but she achieved enlightenment, which including discovering how to love herself and her extended family as well! The following is an email I sent Veena the next morning: Hi Veena, Thanks. You were totally awesome last night, thanks so much for your contribution. I am sure the podcast will reach huge numbers of people and make a big impact on peoples’ lives. I cannot remember a more exciting and loving session. We will see what the groups thinks in the feedback. I did not copy or read the chats during the session, but perhaps you or Jill did. . . We will invite you to join us on a podcast recording to get some follow-up information from you, as folks will be very interested, for the two-part podcast. Yes, I think we really were walking on holy ground last night! Thanks so much for making that happen! I am trying to recall (and will do more of this) the teaching points from last night, and a few seem important to me. They seem awfully basic and simple, but still of towering importance and have to be “seen” to be understood at a deep level. 1. In TEAM, even when a problem is “real,” it is still our thoughts that create our emotions. Our thoughts really DO create all of our feelings. 2. Those thoughts can be subtly distorted in all kinds of ways and seem determined to trick us into believing things that are not true. And even super smart people, like Veena, can be fooled. 3. We are not aiming for improvement, although that is obviously desirable, but a dramatic transformation of the human spirit and outlook. 4. Warmth, tenderness, and compassion—for others and for yourself--are important and powerful. 5. There is a strong mind-body connection, and healing your soul can often help to heal your body. 6. Good therapy can sometimes be much more than just “therapy.” Something almost magical can sometimes happen, and the change can sometimes happen rapidly. However, many people do not like hearing this, and some are even angered by this idea! This is especially true of people who have suffered and struggled for many years without success in changing the way they think and feel. 7. Recovery sometimes requires courage and trust. Just more babbling from the old guy! Apologies if it sounds ridiculous or “off.” If other teaching points come to mind, please let us know so I can add them to the list! I am betting that Jill and Veena can maybe add to this list! (and edit it as well) Warmly, david Below, you will find some excepts from the feedback that the participants provided after the session. Please describe what you specifically disliked about the training? What could have been improved? Were there some things you disagreed with or did not understand?  Nothing. It was beautiful. I wouldn't want to change anything about tonight's experience. It was so moving! Please describe what you specifically liked about the training? What was the most helpful? Were there some things you learned? I loved Veena's personal work and besides my admiration and pride of her and the gratefulness to David and Jill for sharing this wonderful work . . . I enjoy the empathy and validation as well as the trust in the process that was so beautifully demonstrated. Beautiful job by all concerned. Very impressed with Veena and how clearly she "got it" when she used the CAT (Counterattack Technique). I was very moved by Veena's story and her courage in sharing it with us. I felt as if we were witnessing a kind of history because, in the past, wives who couldn't bear children were often devalued and even rejected. Veena pushed back against that kind of thinking and instead chose to love herself. By working toward dispelling the distorted thoughts, she affirmed not only herself, but women with similar experiences now and throughout history. When she affirmed that her mother, mother-in-law, and husband would be empathetic and wouldn't actually reject her, I felt elated, thinking that the world is making progress and becoming a more compassionate place. I was also touched by the following ideas: feeling genuine sadness without distortions; locating the source of pain in distorted self-critical thoughts; painful experiences bringing loved ones closer together. The safe space that was created, the sensitivity with which the topic was handled and the respect accorded to the client. It’s incredible how the trainers (Dr. Burns & Jill), set aside their ailments, and were with Veena through her journey of anticipatory loss, and her fears and apprehensions, along with her inner battle of dealing with deeply entrenched social conditionings, that are hard to face and ward off. I loved the session. Enjoyed watching the whole team model unfold. I’m so grateful to Veena for sharing this previous part of her life with all of us. It was a huge honor. I am constantly surprised by Dr Burns’ and Jill’s mastery of TEAM and their deep empathy skills. This was moving and exhilarating…all at once. Observing two great therapists in action. I liked how Jill and David would make notes to the class about what step they were going on to next. Veena was so amazing and brave to share her experience. As a 23 year old woman with fears of fertility issues myself due to genetics, I found the experience extremely profound and impactful on a personal level. It was awesome to go from the NEWBIE group to this session whereby a lot of the skills we were learning individually were incorporated sequentially into the session. Thank you to everyone!! I liked seeing david and jill go through the entire team model. I liked the pointing out of the Emotional Reasoning distortion and even using the straight forward technique. Excellent! I really liked seeing an entire session completed in one sitting. A very beautiful night. I really felt for Veena and what she is going through, and it was great to see her recovery. David and Jill were empathic and so knowledgeable. The humor in dark moments. the tears from time to time It was exciting to see how as Veena shed the self-blame, simultaneously she was able to see the people in her life as the caring, kind people she knows them to be--and no longer to feel afraid that they would reject her. Accepting herself allowed her to see others as accepting, and not critical. What training could be better than watching David and Jill tag TEAM thru the model! Thanks to Veena's willingness to be vulnerable and her bravery doing this personal work and inviting us all into her world and her pain. It felt like we were all a web of love and support surrounding her and a privilege to get to know her. It was extraordinarily rich and illuminating. I loved everything: the incredible empathy Jill and David demonstrated and how things were turned around for Veena. I was amazed that this was accomplished in such a short period of time; I always am when it comes to live work! I also loved knowing Veena more and seeing how wonderful of a person she is; I have so much admiration for her!!! Incredible empathy and 5 secrets from both Jill & David! So much warmth and love from the group. Seamless incorporation of the steps & methods. Please describe what you learned in today’s group15 responses DML at it's best!!!! TEAM-CBT, done by skillful therapists, with open and vulnerable client, can be such a gift! I learned again how to go through the entire team-CBT process of crushing negative thoughts and helping clients to feel better. There were so many moments of subtle shifts by Jill. Each one of them were penny drop moments for me. . . Thank you both. That people have a lot of beautiful qualities. I felt I learnt anew the power of empathy and the importance of asking our clients specifically what caused the change. Thank you so much Veena. I got some therapy by proxy tonight. I felt myself take a kind of journey with you from fearful for you, and judgmental (of your aunties!) to warm and open and loving - by witnessing your transformation. A better understanding and appreciation of the entire team model and using that for a real life situation. More of the artfulness and symphony of the steps being followed with empathy being woven again and again throughout and bringing out the birth of what is really true about the self, mother, mother-in-law, and husband rather than the assumptions and self-deprecation. On how to get from T to M with E and A in the middle! I loved David's insight that this is what it means to be in a loving relationship--to hurt at times. So wonderful to get to watch Jill move through TEAM in her warm, empathic, brilliantly thoughtful way, with David interweaving his work of genius!!! So grateful to be part of this incredible community! Thanks so much! The importance of Thought Empathy and flexibility with using different techniques, as I tend to be quite rigid. For example, I love how David went right into EOV which I believe would work wonderfully with someone who knows TEAM well. It definitely did work for Veena. So very helpful to see TEAM in action in its entirety by the masters of TEAM CBT! Thank you for listening today! Veena, Rhonda, Jill, and David

Live Therapy with Veena “It's all my fault!” The star of today’s 2-part podcast is Veena Mulchandani, a 28-year old certified Indian TEAM therapist who has just learned that her difficulties becoming pregnant result from an infection in one of her fallopian tubes. Veen feels devastated and fears that she might never be able to have a child. She also fears that her husband and extended family will judge and reject her, since there is so much pressure in Indian culture for women to have babies. And although she has many medical options, including IVF, she is intensely fearful that they might not be successful. My beloved colleague, Dr. Jill Levitt, will be my co-therapist for today’s session. Jill is the Director of Clinical Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California (www.feelinggoodinstittute.com). Today you will hear part 1 (T = Testing and E = Empathy), and next week you will hear the exciting conclusion (A = Assessment of Resistance and M = Methods), along with some follow-up. Part 3 will be the Relapse Prevention Training we did one week after treating Veena. Jill and I treated Veena in our Tuesday evening training group at Stanford. We feel that personal work is an essential part of the training of any therapist. Veena with her two very beloved nephews who she considers being a mother to T = Testing and E = Empathy At the start of the session, we reviewed Veena's Brief Mood Survey just prior to the start of the session. You can review it if you click on it here. Veena was tearful and said that to make matters worse, her mother has been recently diagnosed with brain cancer, and although she is doing “okay,” she is not doing “great.” Veena explained that she has always dreamed of being a mother, and feels like she is lettinhttps://feelinggood.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/01-BMS-wt-ETS_veena-1.pdfg down the many people who love her and want to see her have a baby. She and her husband first talked about having children when Veena was 24, but they decided to defer that for a few years because of the intense demands of her graduate schooling. Now Veena is blaming herself, thinking she “should” have gotten pregnant when she was 24. I mentioned to Veena that my parents tried but were unable to create a pregnancy, so they finally adopted 3 children. Then I came along unexpectedly, after they had given up. I also said that I’ve treated many women who felt like they couldn’t become pregnant, who then became pregnant. You can listen to the dramatic podcasts featuring my session with Daisy and her husband, Zane (#79 and #80) as well as podcasts 268 and 269 featuring a session with Carly (Click here for list of podcasts with links). Both women became pregnant shortly after those sessions, and I hope we can do the same for Veena! However, the key is overcoming the tremendous despair, shame, anxiety, and disappointment that the woman feels, so that the body can heal and prepare for the pregnancy. You can see Veenas partially completed Daily Mood Log if you click here. As you can see, her negative feelings are extreme, and she is telling herself that I may never be a mother. I will ruin Sumit’s (her husband’s) life with her. My marriage may go “down the line” because of the absence of a kid. It’s all my fault for postponing the pregnancy when I was 24. My in-laws, who love me so much, may start ignoring me because I cannot give them an heir. I will always be looked down on and sidelined by my own people. My mother is ill, and I will not be a good daughter if I cannot give her a grandchild. There is no meaning to life without children. My own body cannot suffice for my baby. Her belief in these thoughts ranged from 60 to 80 or more, and she rated most at 100%. Veena with parents I asked Veena how she was feeling after opening up in front of so many colleagues in the Tuesday group. She said she felt sensitive and exposed, and was afraid they don’t understand and will also judge her for not starting earlier with attempts to become pregnant. Although we were still in the Empathy phase of the session, I suggested she might want to do an experiment to find out how they were feeling. Although this idea made her anxious, she asked quite a number of the Tuesday group members how they felt, and received an outpour of warmth, love, tenderness, and support. We asked Veena how we were doing in terms of Empathy. Did we understand how she was thinking? How she was feeling inside? And did she feel accepted. She gave us an A+, and so we were ready to move on to the A = Assessment of Resistance, which you will hear at the start of next week’s podcast. Thank you for listening today! Veena, Rhonda, Jill, and David

Making Space for Grief Featuring Thai-An Truong, LPC, LADC Today, we feature a popular podcast guest, Thai-An Truong who joins us from Oklahoma. Thai-An is a level 5 Certified TEAM therapist and trainer who specializes in post-partum problems as well as anxiety disorders, with a special focus on OCD. Today Thai-An describes a TEAM-CBT technique to help with grief. She believes that empathy is always crucial, and emphasizes that people who have lost a loved one need to be encouraged to express and accept their feelings and to make space for their grief. However, because empathy alone may not be enough, it is often helpful to go beyond empathy and offer specialized techniques to help the patient deal with feelings of grief and loss. In her work specializing in women struggling with post-partum depression, she has seen many women grieving over a loss—such as the loss of a pregnancy, or the loss of a parent when their child is young, or the loss of an infant at birth, or during the first couple months after delivery. She said that the entire TEAM model can be invaluable, including the initial Testing and Empathy, the Daily Mood Log to detect the grieving patient’s (often distorted) negative thoughts, as well as the Assessment of Resistance (the positive reframing step, and the Methods. Healthy grief is often complicated by feelings such as depression, guilt, anger, and more. These feelings can complicate and get in the way of healthy grieving. For example, Rhonda treated a woman who was struggling with guilt over the death of her son, who was in great pain because of advanced, metastatic cancer. At one point, she told him that it was okay to “let go,” and her son died shortly after that. But then, she felt guilty and blamed herself for his death, thinking he might have lived several more days if she had not said that. Thai-An said that losing a son or daughter is one of the greatest pains a parent can have. You may beat up on yourself with “I should have done X” or “I shouldn’t have said or done Y.” But these negative, self-critical thoughts and feelings will nearly always be expressions of your core values as a human being, and your love for the child you lost. This can sometimes be eye-opening, and a relief for the person who is grieving. Thai-An has struggled with grief. She told us about the loss of one of her best friends 16 years ago. He was like a brother, a young man with bipolar manic-depressive illness. At times during manic episodes, he would get high and go out “teaching” on the streets. During one of these episodes something tragic happened—Thai-An was unable to find out what—but her friend was found dead in an alley. Thai-An felt a profound sadness and regret, and to compound the problem, her friend’s mother cut ties with Thai-An, who didn’t even know if a funeral was held or was able to ask any questions about what happened to him.. Thai-An felt understandably hurt and angry,. She recently found out he was buried near a Buddhist Temple in Houston, Texas. She emphasized the value of maintaining a ritual with the person who has died so as to continue the relationship. For example, a woman had a beautiful baby boy who died of an overwhelming infection shortly after he was born. This woman loves nature, and thinks of her son whenever she gardens. For example, when she sees a little bird, she thinks, “that little bird looks just like him!” Thai-An feels that a wide variety of rituals can nurture the bond with the person who died. You might light a candle, or even bake a cake for the baby or person you have lost. The goal is not to achieve some kind of “closure” that is so often emphasized in the media, but rather to continue a positive and meaningful relationship with the person you have lost. Thai-An illustrated a therapeutic technique she calls the Grief Method that involves doing a role-play with the person who has died. The therapist first gathers messages that the grieving patient would like to share with their deceased loved one. The therapist then takes on the role of the patient as the patient takes on the role of the person who has diedThis gives the patient the chance to have a conversation with the love one they have lost. In the following role play, Rhonda played the role of Sam, the young man who died of overwhelming cancer, and Thai-An played the role of his mother, who was grieving and feeling guilty about her son’s tragic death. Thai-An (as Mother): Hi Sam, I really miss you every single day. Rhonda (as Sam): Hi Mom, you’re the person I miss the most. Thai-An (as Mother): I’m sorry we had an argument shortly before you died. Rhonda (as Sam): It’s no big deal. . . We got into little fights pretty often. . . but we always got over it. Thai-An (as Mother): I regret that I left when the doctor told me to leave the room. I should have stayed, so I could be with you when you died. Rhonda (as Sam): I understood that they pushed you to leave the room, and I know that you would have stayed if they’d let you. . . I was in a lot of pain, and I was ready to leave. You gave me a lot of reassurance. Now I’m with grandma. Thai-An (as Mother): I would have done everything for you. Rhonda and Thai-An processed the experience together, and they both cried, even though it was only a role play. Thai-An emphasized the importance of letting your negative feelings flow, and continuing your bond with the person or beloved pet you have lost. For parents who have suffered the loss of a child, Thai-An recommends the book Shattered: Surviving the Loss of a Child by Gary Roe. To access her free grief training for therapists, you can visit courses.teamcbttraining.com/grief. This summer, Thai-An will be offering a special 14-week training course (2 hours / week) which will focus on treating individuals and couples with relationship problems using TEAM. For more information on this and other TEAM training courses, go to courses.teamcbttraining.com. . Thank you for tuning in today! Rhonda, Thai-An, and David

The Invitation Step in Family Life: "Dad! Don't give me that psychology crap!" Today we are joined by our beloved Mike Christensen and his wonderful daughter, Caelyn, for a discussion of one of the humblest but most important and challenging tools in TEAM-CBT, the Invitation Step. We will focus on how this can be important in family life as well. Caelyn will be entering college in the fall, and plans to major in psychology, but she has already picked up a lot of TEAM-CBT from her dad. We’ll tell you more about her at the end of the show notes. The invitation step is the bridge from the E = Empathy phase of TEAM-CBT to the A = Assessment of Resistance, but you don’t issue an invitation until you get an “A” in Empathy from your patient. This generally takes about 25 minutes or so with a new patient if you empathize skillfully using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication. There are two types of Invitations: the Straightforward and the Paradoxical. The Straightforward Invitation is for reasonably cooperative and motivated individuals who are struggling with individual mood problems, like depression and anxiety, and it’s fairly simple. You simply say something along these lines: Jim (or whatever the patient’s name is), you’ve told me some pretty heartbreaking and painful problems you’re confronting, including X, Y, and Z, and I’d love to help you change the way you’ve been thinking and feeling. I’m wondering if this might be a good time to roll up our sleeves and get to work, or if you need more time to talk and vent, because that’s important and I don’t want to jump in before you’re ready. Typically, the person will say “I’m ready,” and you’re all set to set the agenda for the session and reduce the patient’s resistance to change using the many familiar TEAM-CBT techniques, like Miracle Cure Question, Magic Button, Positive Reframing, Magic Dial, and more. The Paradoxical Invitation is for patients who seem unmotivated or even oppositional, and is intended for patients who are struggling with Relationship Problems or Habits and Addictions. Unlike the Straightforward Invitation, your assumption is that the patient probably is NOT asking for help, but just wants to vent, so you might say something along these lines: Sarah (or whatever the patient’s name is), you’ve told me some pretty upsetting things about your conflict with your sister ever since you were young. You say she constantly criticizes you and says things that aren’t really true, and that you’ve tried everything, but nothing works. For example, she insists that you look down on her because you have a PhD, and she didn’t graduate from college, and when you tell her that’s not true she just gets enraged. I can understand how frustrating that must be for you. I’ve got some really cool tools that might help you turn things around and develop a more loving relationship with her, and I think you’d really learn these tools quickly because you’re clearly very smart, but I’m not hearing that you’re asking for that. I’m thinking that you mainly wanted to let me know how difficult and impossible she is. Am I reading you right? I’d love to work with you on your relationship, but would totally understand if that isn’t what you’re looking for. So, in the Paradoxical Invitation, you’re asking the patient to put their cards on the table and acknowledge that they’re NOT looking for help. This prevents a power struggle and you can ask them if there’s something they DO want help with. At the start of today’s podcast, Mike pointed out that the Invitation Step is not only important in therapy, but in family life as well. For example, a lot of parents ask him, “How do I help my teen?” Well, the first answer is to stop trying to help and use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication to listen and understand where your teen is coming from. This is actually hard to do, because so many parents struggle with the compulsion to throw “help” at their kids, and this usually just creates a lot of tension. At the same time, Mike emphasizes that many parents ask, “Well, what do I do when I’m doing empathizing?” Mike says, “That’s the time to issue your invitation. If I don’t do that, Caelyn gets irritated and says, “Don’t’ give me that psychology crap!” If I jump in and try to help or give advice (which is what all parents do almost all of the time) it just ends up in a power struggle. Mike sometimes asks this question: “Did you just want to get that off your chest? What do you want going forward?” Mike and Caelyn did some role-playing to illustrate how this is done, including bad parent technique and excellent parent technique. Caelyn described a disturbing interaction with an angry customer where she works, and Mike first played the “bad dad” and then the “good dad”. Caelyn was delightfully wise and skillful and is heading for a great career in counseling or psychology. For more on this topic, you might want to listen to the podcast #164 on “How to help and how NOT to help!” LINK: How to HELP, and how NOT to Help! Rhonda and I love Mike, and Caelyn as well, and were touched by getting to take a look inside of a real and beautiful father-daughter relationship! Caelyn Bio Sketch Caelyn is a keen student of psychology and is starting her university career in the fall of 2023 She loves animals (her Cat Evie and horse Tulio top the list) and has studied positive reinforcement focused training with horses, under Adele Shaw, at The Willing Equine in Texas. She has read a number of Doctor Burns's books and  implements his CBT principles into her writing. Currently she works full time in customer service at a beauty salon and part time at a garden center where she gets regular opportunities to practice  her 5 secrets skills.  She is a big fan of Taylor Swift. Thank you, Mike and Caelyn, for an awesome interview today! Warmly, Rhonda and David

The Outer Bully Featuring Matthew May, MD Today we are proud to be joined again by our old pal, Matthew May, MD. This is a special two-part edition of Ask David, focusing on two of the most important problems that trigger emotional and interpersonal suffering. Last week, Matt led our discussion of the Inner Bully that causes the lion’s share of internal suffering in the world. Feelings of depression and anxiety always result from the harsh distorted messages we give ourselves, telling ourselves we’re “less than,” or “defective,” or “unlovable,” and so forth. However, the world is also filled with Outer Bullies who can be threatening, even violent. Today we describe how you can often deal with the Outer bully with the Five Secrets of Effective Communication (LINK). Today’s podcast was inspired by a question submitted by Guillermo, one of our podcast fans: Hello, Dr Burns I’ve seen some cases of bullying lately in schools. Would the 5 secrets help a kid who is being bullied in school? (Not physical bullying). I have a son who will be going to middle school next year and wonder about this. David’s Reply Hi Guillermo, Thanks, I might read question on podcast and address it. Might have two consecutive shows on the "inner bully" and then the "outer bully." I know one thing for sure, although I am not an expert in this area, and haven't worked much with kids. But ultimately, only your thoughts can upset you. The words and criticisms of others will never upset you, unless you buy into them. So, the good old Daily Mood Log is always the first step. Once you no longer find bullying threatening, it becomes much easier to deal with it. The bully relies on getting you all scared and terrified and hurt and so forth. Warmly, david Matt began today’s podcast with a real case description working with a violent, involuntarily hospitalized, 6’6” patient weighing 300 pounds snuck into his office while Matt was dictating his notes, locked the door, and announced that he was going to kill Matt because the involuntary hospitalization was “illegal.” The man had been brought to the hospital by the police in a psychotic manic state because of bizarre behavior at his home that troubled the neighbors. Matt was terrified and said, “That was just one occasion when the Five Secrets of Effective Communication saved my life!” Link to Five Secrets Here's what Matt said to the man. I will indicate the communication technique(s) in each sentence in parentheses at the end of each sentence: “You’re right! (Disarming Technique) You served your country and fought for our freedom (Stroking) and now we’re taking away your freedom. (Disarming Technique) I feel the same way you do, (I Feel Statement). Can you tell me more about what you’ve been going through?  (Inquiry)” The man was taken aback and immediately sat down and began to open up. Matt continued to empathize, using the Five Secrets, and after a few minutes the patient fell asleep in his chair. He was then transferred to a higher security hospital ward. Essentially, Matt sided with him, rather than getting defensive or arguing, and saw the truth in what the man was saying, in spite of the fact that he was floridly psychotic, and treated the man with respect. David summarized the case of a colleague of his who was kidnapped by a violent serial rapist. She also used the Five Secrets, which transformed the entire nature of the interaction, and the rapist gave himself up to the police. He also described being bullied by two violent teenagers in a gigantic jeep when he was driving home from the drugstore, where he’d rented an enormous carpet cleaner. David’s use of the Five Secrets in response to violent threats prevented violence, but also turned a potentially hostile and abusive interaction into a joyous and warm one. We concluded with Bullying Practice, saying the worst imaginable things to each other, like “David, you’re a terrible person,” or “Matt, you’re a bad therapist,” or “Rhonda, you’re an insignificant person,” and then responding with the Five Secrets. It was an unexpectedly fun exercise, and the Five Secrets triumphed big time every time! The Outer Bully had no chance at all! However, this level of skill requires that you’ve mastered your own inner Bully, so you’re not buying into what the bully says to you. This gives you a sense of peace and confidence that makes the Five Secrets a piece of cake, so to speak! David, Rhonda, and Matt want to emphasize that we make the Five Secrets look really easy and almost magical. Nothing can be further from the truth. We do hope to inspire you with examples of what’s possible, but mastering these powerful tools takes an enormous amount of dedication, determination, and practice. If you’d like to learn more, I would strongly recommend reading David’s book, Feeling Good Together, and doing the written exercises while reading. This would be an excellent first step! (Include book cover with link to Amazon.) Here, by the way, is an interesting link to a Ted Talk on bullying that you might enjoy. One of our colleagues, Dr. Daniele Leavy, found it and shared the link with our Tuesday group. Link to Ted Talk on Bullying Daniele explains: The speaker does a good job of differentiating what is commonly referred to as bullying from assault or criminal behavior, and demonstrates how to playfully use Disarming and Stroking to deflect the bullying. Thanks for joining us today! Matt, Rhonda, and David

Featuring Matthew May, MD Today, Part 1. The Inner Bully Next week, Part 2. The Outer Bully There are two types of dialogues that can get us in trouble. The first is your “Inner Dialogue.” Your Inner Dialogue sometimes consists of negative thoughts and perceptions of yourself and the world, which are often dominated by the familiar cognitive distortions that trigger internal mood problems, like depression, anxiety, guilt, shame, inadequacy, loneliness, hopelessness, and more. Examples would be “I’m a failure because . . . “ or “I should be better than I am,” or “I’m really going to blow it when I give my talk, and a myriad of variations on these themes. Your Inner Dialogue often consists of mean-spirited things you say to yourself, much like the schoolyard bully who intimidates younger, weaker children. The only difference is that you are doing this to yourself, often without noticing or realizing  what that voice inside your brain is up to. When you challenge and crush these distorted perceptions, you can CHANGE the way you FEEL. Your Outer Dialogue consists of the things you say when you have with interactions with other people, and this can be especially important when you’re dealing with others who are critical of you, or even threatening you with violence.  The strategies are quite different from the strategies you might use to challenge and defeat your Inner bully. Today, Rhonda, Matt and I will demonstrate various strategies for defeating the Inner Bully. Next week, in Part 2, we will demonstrate strategies for defeating the Outer Bully! Those strategies, in extreme cases, might even save your life one day, as you’ll see next week. Rhonda starts the podcast by reading an awesome comment by certified TEAM-CBT therapist Dan Prine, who commented in a kindly way on podcast 334, where we interviewed Michael Yapko on hypnosis. Then we focus on multiple techniques to challenge two negative thoughts with a variety of strategies. The first negative thought is one we’ve seen on a number of occasions from women who had abortions as teenagers, and then experienced extreme depression and guilt later in life because of their thought, “I’m a bad person because I murdered my baby.” Using role-playing, we illustrated E = Empathy, using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, followed by A = the Assessment of Resistance, using the Magic Button, Positive Reframing, and Magic Dial, followed by M = Methods. Methods included Examine the Evidence, the Double Standard Technique, the Externalization of Voices (with Self-Defense, the Acceptance Paradox, and the CAT, or Counter-/Attack Technique, along with the Socratic Technique, and more. Then we focused on a thought familiar to Rhonda during moments of insecurity and self-doubt: “I don’t matter!” This thought has plagued Rhonda since she was a child. She recalled her father often saying, “c"Who are you? You don't matter!" She told herself, “he’s saying that because I don’t matter.” Even the memory causes great pain and agitation. Of course, on some level, her father’s comments never had any effect on her. Only your thoughts can cause you to feel one way or another. But this was devastating to Rhonda because she believed what her father said, which is understandable, and those thoughts caused the pain. We again illustrated many approaches to challenging this thought, but one of the techniques that was most helpful was the CAT. During the Externalization of Voices, the Positive Rhonda said this to her Inner Bully: “I’m not going to listen to you anymore! I’ve had enough of your BS!” Thank you for listening today. Remember to tune in to the Outer Bully next week! Rhonda, Matt, and David

Sexual Abuse / Emotional Eating Personal Work with Orly, Part 2 of 2 Last week, you heard the first half of our live session on Emotional Eating, featuring Orly. Today, you will hear the second half and exciting conclusion and follow-up on that therapy session. A = Assessment of Resistance (previously called Paradoxical Agenda Setting) Orly did want help, but there were a number of directions / conceptualizations we could have pursued, including: Working on the distorted negative thoughts that were triggering intense negative feelings and robbing Orly of self-esteem. This would involve the use of the Daily Mood Log. Working on relationship conflicts with the Relationship Journal. Working on the addiction to binging, using the Habit and Addiction Log and the Triple Paradox if you click HERE. Exposure work to help Orly overcome her Emotophobia. That’s a term I coined that means “fear of strong emotions.” Orly shared a number of additional negative thoughts: I need to take care of myself because in truth I really am unlovable. I’m not entitled to feel traumatized because he did not hurt me. If I get excited or upset, and I don’t eat, I might go crazy. If I feel strong emotions, I’ll end up rejected and alone. Orly said she already had the tools for working on her negative thoughts and her relationship problems, but really wanted help with #3 and #4. So we first worked with her Triple Paradox that she brought to the session. This is a key tool in working with any habit or addiction, and Orly did an amazing job with it. You’ will enjoy that portion of the session and learn a great deal if you pay close attention. M = Methods We did a little work with Orly’s tempting thoughts from her Habit and Addiction log (click here to review.) Orly was extremely effective in challenging the tempting thoughts. Thanks to Jill’s brilliant guidance, we next decided to focus on cognitive flooding (exposure,) and gave Orly the assignment of scheduling one hour every evening for the next three weeks experiencing negative feelings and simply tolerating them, refusing to give in to the urge to binge.’ We also made her accountable, asking her to record her moods during each flooding session and to send a report the Tuesday group  the following morning. Either “Mission Accomplished” or “I stubbornly refused.” T = End of Session Testing You can click to see Orly’s Brief Mood Survey and Evaluation of Therapy Session at the end of the session. As you can see, she reported significant improvements in all of her feelings, and gave Jill and David perfect scores on the Empathy and Helpfulness Scales, as well as the other therapy process scales. Group Q and A After live work, we spent 30 minutes responding to questions and comments from the group participants. If you like, you can review just a few of the many comments in the feedback from the training group. Absolutely superb training! Thank you, Orly for the gift of your amazing personal work. And, thank you David and Jill for another magnificent teaching and healing session. I love the interplay between David and Jill. I loved Jill's empathy. I was so happy to get to know Orly better, and felt so close to her after the session. I was touched by her candor and disclosing about her abuse and life experiences. Unbelievable session, more like a miracle. A lifelong deep emotional issue to flow towards resolution in a couple of hours happens only in TEAM therapy. This was so very real; Orly was so open and insightful and vulnerable. Jill's identification of the choice point as to what to work on, and specifically, the option to focus on emotophobia--the anxiety around feeling intense emotions--and hence, exposure/flooding as treatment, struck me as so great, so much deeper than I'd initially expected. Jill's explanation that she focusses on the thoughts that drive the behavior in the HAL encapsulates it well. I loved the focus on feeling more. Recently, I read an article that stated CBT encourages clients to feel less and I didn't agree that was true at all. Tonight's session supported the sense of doubt I had. I thought the flooding concept was extremely helpful. Follow-Up Today, we recorded a live follow-up with Orly and Jill. Orly is doing great, and was very inspired. Jill made some (as usual) brilliant teaching points as well. If you like, you can also review one of her evening Emotional Eating Flooding sessions. Thanks again for listening! See you all next week. Warmly, Rhonda, Jill, Orly, and David

Sexual Abuse / Emotional Eating Personal Work with Orly, Part 1 of 2 In today’s podcast, you will hear the first of a two part series on Emotional Eating, featuring Orly, an Israeli psychologist who experienced sexual abuse at age 6 when she was a “skinny little girl.” After that, she began devouring her grandmother’s delicious cookies, and suddenly gained a great deal of weight. She continued binging for more than 50 years whenever she was excited or upset. This led to a pattern of dramatic swings in weight of 100 pounds or more over and over again. And now, Orly has decided she wants to end this pattern. My dear colleague, Dr. Jill Levitt, will be my co-therapist in this single, 2 hour-session that was conducted in front of my TEAM-CBT Tuesday training group at Stanford. Part of therapist training involves doing your own personal work, although this is not a requirement, it is recommended. That’s because the patient experience gives you a much deeper appreciation for how the therapy works. Rhonda, Jill and I want to thank Orly for permission to publish her highly personal work, and hope you find it immensely educational—so you can see exactly how TEAM-CBT works in real time with real people—and inspirational as well. Nearly all of us are pretty flawed in one way or another or many, and learning how to accept our flawed selves and celebrate is one of the deeper goals of the therapy. Today, we will cover the T = Testing and E = Empathy phases of the treatment. Next week, you will hear the exciting conclusion of our work with Orly, as well as the follow-up. Will she really be able to resolve a severe problem that has defied a solution for more than 50 years in a single TEAM therapy session? Let’s check it out! Part 1 of the personal work with Orly T = Testing At the start of the session, we reviewed Orly’s scores on the Brief Mood Survey that she completed just prior to her session. She scored only 3 out of 20 on the depression test (minimal), zero on suicidal thoughts and urges, 5 out of 20 on anxiety (mild), and 2 out of 20 on anger (minimal.) Her happiness score was 16 out of 20 (very happy with a little room for improvement), and her relationship score with her daughter was 18 out of 30, indicating lots of room for improvement. She indicated she'd done a great deal of homework in preparation for the session. You can also see her scores on nine mood dimensions if you take a look at her molestation Daily Mood Log. As you can see, her scores were quite high, and you can also review many of her negative thoughts when she was growing up. For example, at age 8 she told herself, “I am the fattest kid here. I will never be beautiful or desirable.” You can also see her Habit and Addiction Log (HAL) just prior to binging after a backpacking trip if you look HERE. Once again, you can see that all of her negative feelings were intense, and rated in the range of 90 to 100. You can also see her tempting thoughts, like “I can afford it since I spent so many calories during the hike.” E = Empathy David and Jill empathized while Orly told her graphic story of sexual abuse from a young man while growing up on a farm in Israel around the time of the “Six Day War” in 1967. She explained that he had been like an “older brother,” and she didn’t quite understand what had happened, since there was no Hebrew word for sexual abuse, and the subject was never discussed in public or with children. As she grew up, she learned to be independent, and felt like she was “different” and never really fit in. She developed a strong connection with nature and with spiritual values, and served as a park ranger during her military service in Israel. After her military service and an undergraduate degree from the Hebrew University, she set out to backpack in South America for a year and then settled in Los Angeles. She was married, and had a daughter who she considers her most important relationship, However, it was a troubled marriage and Orly and her husband were divorced when her daughter was 6. For quite a while, her daughter “blamed me for the divorce and for many  other things.” Eventually, she settled down in the United States and decided to become a psychologist after going to therapy, which was “the only diet I had never tried.” In 2020 she got some medical help from her doctor and started hiking extreme distances and heights, and lost a tremendous amount of weight. Nonetheless, she still finds herself “eating her feelings” and engaged in binge eating every once in a while. She also joined our Tuesday training group at Stanford, and said that it made an enormous impact on her life and on her clinical practice, and began at times to think, “Maybe there’s NOT something wrong with me.” She said the group made her an effective therapist and “I got to liking myself just a little bit!” She said the group also helped her tremendously with relationships. I believe she was referring to the five Secrets of Effective Communication that we have demonstrated so often in our podcasts as well as other tools such as the Relationship Journal She shared she was feeling terrified and had a number of negative thoughts during our session, since she was really hopeful that she could finally end her Emotional Eating. Her thoughts included: I don’t belong. 70% Something is wrong with me. 70% What I do is not good enough. 60% Now that I’m more than 60 years old, most of my life is over. 60% If I don’t get over my emotional eating, I’ll never feel normal. If I fail to solve my addiction, I’ll fail in my most important existential tasks. That would mean I’m a failure. That would mean that didn’t make a positive impact on the world. Jill empathized, using Thought Empathy, Feeling Empathy, and warmth, and then we asked, “What’s our grade? How good a job have we done in understanding how you think, how you’re feeling, and accepting you?” She gave us an A, meaning it was time to get on to the next phase of the session. Orly also shared that she never told her parents about the abuse, and never felt really close to her mother, who had her and two boys, all within 19 months. She said, “I was a problem for her, and always challenged her. Orly told friends about the abuse, but not her folks because she was desperately afraid they might not empathize or support her. She added, “Deep down, I fear that I am not really lovable, and that it might be too late for me.” I would add that feelings of hopelessness are so common in all of our patients, and this is what makes our work so challenging for us and painful for our patients—and also so rewarding when we can provide genuine, rapid, and profound relief. But will that really be possible for Orly? Next week we will set the agenda for the session and select some methods that might be helpful for Orly. End of Part 1 Thanks again for listening! Warmly, Rhonda, Jill, Orly, and David

Good Grief—Featuring Mike Christensen     Mikes' beloved friend, Kris Yip, word-ranked bicyclist who suddenly and tragically died. Mikes' beloved dog and best friend, Josie, who died the day before the podcast was recorded In today’s podcast we feature one of our favorite people, Mike Christensen. Mike is a Certified Level 5 Master TEAM CBT Therapist and Trainer, and is the Director Feeling Good Institute, Canada. Mike is a Registered Clinical Counsellor with the British Columbia Association of Clinical Counsellors and holds a Master of Arts in Counselling Psychology degree. His diverse background in business, community organizations, and family support roles has provided Mike with a wide array of experience in leadership, administration, parenting training, and team building. He provides advanced level online training with the Feeling Good Institute for therapists around the world and is currently co-authoring a book with Maor Katz on Deliberate Practice of TEAM-CBT. Mike specializes in treating depression and anxiety, with experience and training in addictions, PTSD, and relationship challenges. Today, Mike comes to us today with a personal issue, grief and loss. The day before the recording Mike’s beloved dog, Josie, died, and this came on the heels of the death of one his best friends, Kris Yip, a month earlier. Kris had died suddenly and unexpectedly at the age of 47. Kris was 7 or 8 years younger than Mike, and appeared to be the perfect example of health and fitness, so his loss was an unexpected and devastating punch in the gut. Mike explained that Kris was a celebrity in the bicycling community. He was the Canadian national champion and war ranked 59th in the world. However, he was humble and never promoted himself. Instead, he always focused on others, encouraging even those who were just beginners. Mike has also been a competitive bicyclist, and Kris had invited Mike to join an online racing team consisting of four friends who got together daily on stationary bikes linked by videos on the internet so they could talk while biking. In January of 2023, while riding, Kris’s heart suddenly stopped. A friend of Kris called Mike to say, “Kris is gone!” This was devastating to Mike, who said: “He was the fittest of our group. The impact was profound.” He had trouble sleeping and was in disbelief. He said, “It felt surreal. It felt like something is wrong. He told himself, “I should be able to keep it together without falling apart.” Mike also told himself that Kris, was too young to go, and missed him tremendously. Mike thought of Kris’s mom, and how much she was suffering, so he spent a week with Kris’ family and friends in Prince George. Which was where Mike was born, and his brother and his other biking buddies live.  He said, “We cried together and were together.” He explained, “Whenever I got on my bike to ride, Kris was always there. He’d always say, ‘Let’s ride.’ I miss his voice.” He also said that during his rides, you could see Kris’ face on the video feed, and he was always struggling, digging deep, suffering, but loving it! Mike said that all of his losses, including his sister, his son, and Kris,  were actually double losses, because “I lost not only what had been, but what was to come in the future, and didn’t.” Mike said, “Kris was so humble, so I want to brag for him. He always cared and made all of us feel so encourage and inspired!” Mike mentioned some of the positives he saw in the pain of grief: It honors the depth of the love and the depth of our relationship with Kris. Our grief has motivated us to cherish our riding group and to cling together even more closely. Tears can be the purest form of love. Tears allow us to keep the other person alive in our hearts and minds. I mentioned how I talk to three people I’ve lost every day when I do my “slogging:” my beloved cat Obie, and two dear colleagues I’ve lost, Ann Hantz in Philadelphia and Marilyn Coffy from Oakland. Mike described how touched he was when visiting Kris’ family, and how his mom had arranged all of Kris’ bicycles in the garage, ready to be ridden, with all of his racing jerseys on display. Mike confessed that also felt angry and often thought: “You bugger. It  should have been someone else!” Mike has endured many tragic losses in his life, including the devastating death of his older sister when he was just 15, and the tragic loss of his son, Graeme Michael, who died shortly before birth. Mike reminded us about the various conceptualizations we use in TEAM-CBT, which can include individual mood problems (like depression or anxiety), personal relationship problems, habits and addictions, and “non-problems.” A non-problem refers to people who do not have distorted negative thoughts or problems that need to be solved—they just have strong and appropriate negative feelings, and the job of the therapist is simple: resist trying to “help,” and instead use the Five Secrets of Effective Communication to listen and give the grieving person the chance to vent and expression their feelings. With this in mind, Mike described the support he received from colleagues at the Feeling Good Institute, including one who told him to make sure he was feeling sad! He greatly appreciated this! In my clinical experience, “non-problems” were actually rare, but there were several patients who only needed to vent and receive support. one of my favorite chapters In my first book, Feeling Good, was Chapter 3. entitled Sadness is not Depression. I described my experience as a medical student with a terminally ill elderly man in the Stanford Hospital who reminded me of my grandfather. His extended family had gathered around the bedside as he was slipping into a coma from liver failure due to metastatic kidney cancer, and asked “Would it be okay for you to remove his catheter? It was a bit uncomfortable for him, and we’re not sure if he still needs it.” I was very inexperienced and asked at the nursing station if it would be okay to remove it, and if so, how would I do it. They said he was, in fact, dying, and would not last much longer, and explained how to remove the catheter. I pulled the curtain around his bed, and did that and told the family, with tears in my eyes, “He can still hear you, but not for much longer, so it’s time to tell him how much you love him and say goodbye.” Tears were flowing down my cheeks and they began to cry as well, and began saying good bye. I went to the room where the medical students and resident make their notes, and wept. The family later told the department chairman how much they appreciated what I did for them. I was a pretty terrible medical student, and for the most part had a bad attitude, but that was on moment I still feel very proud of. There are several differences between sadness and depression. First, the thoughts that trigger depression, like “I’m defective. There must be something wrong with me,” are distorted. Depression, as I’ve often said, is the world’s oldest con. In contrast, Mike’s thoughts, like the thoughts that trigger healthy grief, are not distorted, like “I miss Kris. I admired him and loved him, and he made a tremendous difference in my life, and the lives of all who knew him.” Second, depression can go on and on endlessly. I’ve had patients who told me that they’d never had even one happy moment in their entire lives. Healthy grief, in contrast, only needs to be accepted and expressed, and runs its course naturally, If grief is extended, or impairing the person’s life, then it’s a certainty that distorted thoughts are present and preventing the person from healthy grieving. In this case, treatment can be enormously helpful. Finally, depression robs us of joy, hope, and productivity. Life often seems meaningless and worthless. Grief, in contrast, though painful, enriches us and provides us with a deeper level of meaning and gratitude for life. Rhonda and I are very sad for Mike’s many losses, now and in the past as well. But we are both grateful to have him as a friend, and cherish him tremendously. Thank you, Mike, for letting us in today! Warmly, Mike, Rhonda and David Following the session, I emailed Mike to ask a couple questions about peoples’ names, and also find out if we might have perhaps let him down during the podcast, not given him enough space to grieve, and so forth. When I get worried about things like that, I have found that checking it out usually beats “Mind-Reading” by a pretty huge margin. Here’s the wonderful email that Mike sent. It will give you a deeper view of his inner warmth and depth. Hi David, Thank you for your kind words. I experienced our time together as deeply moving and came out of it with a renewed sense of purpose in the sadness. I guess my hope was that we might be able to illustrate and share the value in empathy and the positive reframe in our grief work. That was enhanced to a new level for me with the way you guided me to explore some aspects I had missed. I wouldn't change a thing about it. It also opened up the way in which your stories and the journey we go on with clients can provide healing for others. I am so grateful that you were willing to take that time to revisit them. Our son's name was Graeme Michael. He was in between our oldest (Thomas now 25) and our middle daughter (Janae now 22). We (my wife Janna and I) never had the opportunity to hear his voice or see him smile. We were informed that it was a chord accident. Janna knew something was wrong and an ultrasound confirmed that she would have to deliver him knowing he was already gone. The first time we held him was also the last. Whenever people ask me how many children I have I say 3 (Thomas, Janae & Caelyn -19  & you will meet soon)  but in my mind it is always 4. Thank you for asking. My wife Janna is a nurse and the director of a pregnancy outreach program. She has been blessed with the opportunity to work with at-risk pregnant moms and young families for 17 years and our experience has brought incredible connection and support to so many (I also worked there for 7 years part time with the young dads). While we would never wish our journey on anyone, the suffering of loss has given us insight, motivation, inspiration, understanding and opportunities that we would never have without it. The sadness has deep purpose and meaning and continues to be an expression of our love for Graeme and all the young families we meet. Mike

Amy and her "fab fiancé," Randy Kolin! Secrets of Flirting, Sex Appeal and True Love! Today Rhonda and David interview Amy Berner, who has fallen in love and has quite a story to tell! Today is Valentine’s Day (we recorded this on February 14, 2023), so we thought a love story would be a ray of joy for all of you, whether you are in a loving relationship or still looking for one! But first, Rhonda and David briefly interview Jeremy Karmel, the co-CEO of David’s Feeling Good App. Jeremy tells his dramatic personal story that led to the creation of the app, and solicits for people who might want to join us for beta testing, which has gotten very busy of late. David also present some amazing data from a small, four-week beta test in December involving around 45 beta testers. The findings appeared to indicate that beta users experience far greater warmth and understanding from the app than from the people in their lives, which is on the sad side, since at the time users applied for the app, they only estimated 55% (on a scale from 0 to 100) warmth and understanding from the people in their lives, and roughly 85% from the digital “David” they interacted with in the app. We’ll see if those amazing findings hold up in two larger replication studies now in progress. If you think you might be interested in being a beta tester, please sign up at www.feelinggood.com/app. Rhonda also gave an endorsement for the upcoming second World Congress on TEAM-CBT in Warsaw, Poland this year, March 30-April 2, 2023. It sounds exciting. I will be there is a variety of capacities including conducting a personal session with Jill Levitt, PhD. Please check it out! And, as usual, she read a compelling comment from one of our regulars, Irish Brain, who wrote: “Another amazing podcast for the collection!” Amy Berner is a licensed marriage and family therapist who works with adults and teens online in California. She loves helping her clients heal from heartache, depression, and anxiety. You can find her at the FeelingGreatTherapyCenter.com. Amy’s love story started at a women’s group that Rhonda was also in more than a year ago. It turns out that Rhonda is quite the match-maker, and has arranged dates for large numbers of her friends and colleagues, including Amy. However, Amy was feeling insecure, as so many of us might, before this date. To help her, Rhonda suggested the Feared Fantasy Exercise, and asked Amy to list some of the things she was afraid her blind date might be thinking, but not saying, when they met. When you do the FF, one person plays the role of the “Date from Hell” who not only thinks these awful things about you, but gets right up in your face and says them. This list of awful things the Date from Hell might say included: “I’m just doing Rhonda a favor in dating you.” “You look a lot older than your picture!” “I haven’t gotten over my last relationship yet.” “You’re not smart enough.” “You’re just not very interesting.” We demonstrated the FF on the podcast, and Amy knocked them out of the park, using humor plus the Acceptance Paradox. She said that when they’d done that at the women’s group, in greatly reduced Amy’s fear and trepidation prior to their first date. Amy said she was also greatly helped by being in my small practice group the following Tuesday at our weekly psychotherapy training group. We were working on the “Interpersonal Downward Arrow,” a technique I developed that quickly illuminates the roles people play in problematic relationships. Amy discovered that she was playing the role of the inadequate, inferior, insecure person, and this was illuminating. One bad thing about this role is that it quickly becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because if you see yourself as inferior, you will chase, and come across as insecure, and that will cause the other person, in most cases, to reject you. David suggested a technique he described in his book, Intimate Connections (which you can see below). called the Queen Bee Phenomenon. Instead of playing the insecure role, you give yourself all kinds of positive messages about how sexy and awesome and desirable you are. Once you get into that mind-set, this mind-set can also act as a self-fulfilling prophecy. That’s because of the Burns Rule, which states that in any relationship, especially at the start, one person will be the pursued, and the other person will be the pursuer. The pursued person has all the power, and the pursuer is usually rejected. So why not utilize the Queen Bee Phenomenon and let the guys chase you? This idea was transformative for our wonderful Amy, who is now happily, giddily, engaged, and she tell her story today with her typical wit, humor, and charm. She emphasized another important concept from Intimate Connections. Self-love has to come first. Once you chose to love and like yourself, your fear of being alone disappears, and you discover that you can be incredibly happy when you’re alone. Then, you will no longer “need” men; and as a result, men will need and chase you. That’s another expression of the Burns Rule which states: Men (all people actually) ONLY want what they CAN’T get, and NEVER want what they CAN get. So, if you don’t “need” other people, they will have to chase you! And that’s what happened! Rhonda, Amy, and David also reviewed the principles of effective flirting. 1, Be playful, and not heavy or serious. 2. Have fun. 3. Give playful, specific compliments. Amy has developed a game called “Flirty Dice” which helped her and many others. It is suitable for anyone 14 years or older and can be obtained at the Feeling Great Therapy Center. At the same time that her love life zoomed into orbit, her clinical practice did the same. This is common—when you become a source of joy, others just naturally are attracted to you. Kind of like human magnetism. Amy sees people virtually from all over California. She practices TEAM-CBT and specializes in the treatment of depression and anxiety, and of course, dating and relationship issues. So, if you want to give your love-life a kick-start, or recovery from rejection, contact her at babyfreud@gmail.com Thanks for listening today! Last month, (January 2023), we broke our one month download record (>182,000 downloads), so thank you for that. We will surpass 6 million downloads shortly. Rhonda, Amy, and David