What's the Antidepressant Myth? Have We Been Scammed?     Today, Rhonda and I interview one of our heroes, Dr. Irving Kirsch, who is a giant in depression research and a fun, down-to-earth human being at the same time! Dr. Kirsch is Associate Director of the Program in Placebo Studies and the Therapeutic Relationship, and a lecturer on medicine at the Harvard Medical School (Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center). He is also Emeritus Professor of Psychology at the University of Hull (UK) and the University of Connecticut (USA). Dr. Kirsch has published 10 books, more than 250 scientific journal articles and 40 book chapters on placebo effects, antidepressant medication, hypnosis, and suggestion. He originated the concept of response expectancy. This is the expectation that people have that a given treatment or intervention will be helpful. Kirsch’s 2002 meta-analysis on the efficacy of antidepressants influenced official guidelines for the treatment of depression in the United Kingdom. His 2008 meta-analysis was covered extensively in the international media and listed by the British Psychological Society as one of the “10 most controversial psychology studies ever published.” His book, The Emperor’s New Drugs: Exploding the Antidepressant Myth, has been published in English, French, Italian, Japanese, Turkish, and Polish, and was shortlisted for the prestigious “Mind Book of the Year” award. It was also the topic of a 60 Minutes segment on CBS and a 5-page cover story in Newsweek. In 2015, the University of Basel (Switzerland) awarded Irving Kirsch an Honorary Doctorate in Psychology. In 2019, the Society for Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis honored him with their “Living Human Treasure Award.” In today’s podcast, we cover a wide range of topics, including a patient-level reanalysis of all of the data on the effects of antidepressant medications versus placebos submitted to the FDA. This analysis included more than 70,000 depressed individuals and indicated something troubling and surprising. The difference in improvement between individuals treated with antidepressants and individuals receiving antidepressant medications was only 1.8 points on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. This test can range from 0 to 50, and a difference of 1.8 points is not clinically significant. In addition, the beneficial antidepressant effects observed in both the placebo and “antidepressant” groups are large, with reductions of around 10 points or so on the Hamilton Scale. These were the shocking discoveries that led to his popular book, The Emperor’s New Drugs (LINK), and to his appearance on the Sunday evening 60 Minutes TV show. In addition, Dr. Kirsch agreed that tiny difference between the “effects” of antidepressants vs placebos could be the result of problems in the experimental design used by drug companies. Because they give patients in the placebo groups pills with inactive ingredients, there are no side effects in the placebo groups. This makes it fairly easy for individuals to guess what group they were assigned to—the “real” antidepressant group or the placebo group. This might account for the differences in the groups, since many individuals in the medication groups may think, “Hey, I’m getting some side effects. I must be in the antidepressant group. That’s terrific!” This thought would be expected to trigger some mood elevation, but it’s the thought, and not the pill, that causes this. In contrast, some individual in the placebo groups may have the thought, “Hey, I’m not getting any of the side effects they described. I must be in the placebo group!” And this thought may trigger disappointment, and a worsening of depression. This would contribute to differences between the drug and placebo groups in drug company outcome studies with new chemicals that they hope to get approved as “antidepressants.” This problem could easily be corrected by the use of active placebos, like atropine, which produces dry mouth, a side effect of many antidepressants and has been used as an active placebo in a small number of trials. Most of the studies using active placebos have failed to show any significant effect of the antidepressant over the active placebo. Drug companies have been reluctant to implement this change in their research designs, perhaps due to the fear that it will “erase” the tiny differences that they have been reporting. This would be of potential concern since billions of dollars are at stake if the FDA gives you permission to call your new chemical an “antidepressant.” We also discussed Dr. Kirsch’s unlikely journey to Harvard. When he was in England, planning to return to the United States, he asked a colleague at Harvard if it would be possible for him to get a library card so he’d have access to articles in research journals. His colleague told him that it was difficult to obtain a library card for people not affiliated with Harvard. However, they were willing to offer him a position as Instructor on Medicine, given that he was the Associate Director of the  Program in Placebo Studies and the Therapeutic Relationship, which was hosted at one of the Harvard teaching hospitals. That’s a wow! But certainly deserved, and a most fortunate affiliation with unanticipated and highly positive consequences that have led to many important discoveries on how the placebo effect actually works. The placebo effect is not a bad thing, and has been one of the doctor’s best “medicines” for hundreds if not thousands of years. On the podcast, we also discussed the confusion—for patients, doctors, and researchers alike—caused by the placebo effect. For example, many people who receive antidepressants do improve, and some recover completely. They will SWEAR by antidepressants, and may feel hurt or disappointed by the results of Dr. Kirsch’s research. But in fact, there is no discernable difference between the effects of placebos and so-called “real” effects. And one of the downsides of the confusion about placebos is that people who take antidepressants and improve have improved because of changes in their thinking, and not from the antidepressant. But they wrongly give credit to the pills they took, whereas they deserve the real credit for overcoming their feelings of depression. We discussed many other topics, including pushback he has received from the psychiatric community and some in the general public as well who have not taken kindly to his findings. I, too, have experienced that when I have summarized the data in the Food and Drug Administration, and have had to be very careful in how I present this information, because none of us want to discourage anyone who is depressed. We have also invited Dr. Kirsch to consult with us on the research design we use in our beta testing of the Feeling Good App, and have developed tests of “expectations” (the so-called placebo effect) that we will use in our latest beta test as well. We want to “walk the walk” and not just “talk the talk” and find out how much the improvement we see in beta testers might be due to a placebo, or “mega-placebo” effect. Rhonda and I were honored and thrilled to have this chance to interview Dr. Irving Kirsch, a friend and research giant for sure! Thanks so much for listening to today’s podcast! Irving, Rhonda, and David

Integrating TEAM-CBT with Martial Arts Training! Podcast Episode 330, Featuring Dor Star Our guest today is Dor Star. Dor is an educational counselor (MA) and a level 2 TEAM practitioner who works with children in Israel who have emotional and interpersonal problem. He works with children as young as four years old, but most of his work is with children ages seven to twelve years old. The children he works with experience various challenges and difficulties such as: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD), learning disabilities, tantrums, outbursts of anger, all kinds of anxieties, social difficulty, bullying and much more. His work is unique because he works mainly in small groups (4-6 participants) using martial arts and sports as therapeutic tools. In his work Dor uses the TEAM model with some adaptation, because of the children’s ages and sports methods, with great success! In fact, one can say that he discovered for himself, and for his patients, a new way to use the TEAM model. He also teaches sports and martial arts trainers who are interested in entering the field of child therapy. Dor describes his first encounter with TEAM-CBT, which blew him away, but he was initially frustrated because he was thinking of his conventional ways of dealing with kids VS TEAM. But after a few weeks he discovered that he could use the TEAM structure to improve his approach, and wow, did he ever start to shine, as did his results with TEAM. Today’s podcast was really a breath of fresh air! Dor began with T = Testing, and describes how he developed simple assessment tools to rate how his children (aged 4 to 11) were feeling at the start and end of his classes, but also how they felt about him. He uses simple questions like “Did I understand you today? How well did I listen?” He also asks them, “How much fun was the session,” and “How did you grade yourself?” Then they grade him on a scale from 0 (the worst) to 10 (the best.) So, it’s quick, easy, and . . . shocking. Dor says: “I found out that I wasn’t nearly as effective as I thought. Sometimes the kids thought the class was fun, but I got really low grades on Empathy, as well as how depressed, anxious and angry they were feeling at the start and end of each group session. Essentially, I discovered that I wasn’t achieving almost any of my goals for my kids. This was disturbing at first, and I had to let my ego die. But I decided to try to view it as valuable information that I might be able to use to learn and grow.” For example, I had one of the most amazing sessions with an 11 year who was smiling the entire time. I was absolutely certain it was one of my best sessions ever. But when I asked him for my grade, he gave me a 3 out of 10! When I asked why, he explained that at the start I didn’t introduce myself or ask him about himself! So, in this simple but compelling way, Dor has used the T = Testing to transform the entire way he works with kids! I believe he’s had the same experiences I’ve had with the T = Testing component of TEAM. Dor has made his patients his teachers, and this has led to some amazing and revolutionary developments in his approach. Dor emphasizes the importance of E = Empathy, and says that “the Five Secrets of Effective Communication” are incredible! For example, if they’re having a rage attack, or a temper tantrum, you can tell them they are absolutely right in the way they’re thinking and feeling.” He also uses what he calls the Five Ways of Love. Verbally expressing respect and liking Giving service: tying a child’s shoes, giving them some water during the training. These small acts can create feelings of trust and connection. Spending time with them, paying attention to them. This is especially important because so many are angry and try to push others away. They are good at getting other people to reject them and not want to spend time with them. Giving gifts, something they can take home and show to their parents. Making physical contact with them during the martial arts training, playing with them, having fun. I (David) would note that physical contact might be something to be careful with. Of course, when you are teaching martial arts, it may be perfectly justified and desirable. I came from the psychotherapy perspective, and I have been trained that ANY touching of a patient other than shaking hands at the initial and final sessions is grounds for a malpractice suit as well as an ethics charge. Dor also made some really illuminating comments on the A = Assessment of Resistance (formerly called Paradoxical Agenda Setting.) At the initial evaluation, he talks to the teachers, parents, and students. The agendas from teachers and parents are things like “he has an anger problem” or a problem paying attention in class, or whatever. However, 90% of the time, the children frequently are unaware of those agendas, or have no interest in the goals of the teachers and parents. Instead, he finds out what the children want to work on, and finds this to be the most and only effective way to approach the treatment. He says that it is fairly easy to set goals with children of any age, even as young as 4 years old, but those in the 8 to 11 years of age are the most difficult. He said that the children’s goals may be to learn how to hit back when they are being bullied in school, or to have fun and make friends with other kids. I was delighted to hear about Dor’s methods of setting goals with his kids and have felt strongly along these lines for many years! I say, Kudos, Dor! He also described doing a Cost-Benefit Analysis of crying when being bullied, and also helps his children see the positives in their symptoms using Positive Reframing. Dor explains: For example, I worked with a child who was bullied at school. In order for the work to be effective, I asked that the boy who bullied him be included in the group as well. After seeing the bullying happening in real time, I had two private five minute sessions with each child while the other kids played. In these sessions I used empathy techniques and received a score of 10 I started fooling around with the TEAM-CBT Agenda-Setting techniques. The goal was for the child who suffers from bullying to choose to behave in a different way. The child said he was willing to do it to prove to me that he is strong and to get back at the kids who beat him. I then talked to the bully boy and asked him if he was willing to help me work with that boy. He was happy to do it because he wanted him to stop crying all the time and get punished for it. After that the M = Methods part was really easy and fun. I hade the bully train the kid =whom he’d bulled. Two meetings after that they were best friends. In my experience (and I have done this process several times) the bully is the best therapist for a child who suffers from bullying! After Dor described his approach to helping kids who are being bullied, he said that if the parents or authorities step in to help it can make things worse because they child is placed in the role of being a baby, which may intensify the bullying. David asks: Dor, is a safety plan for the child important? Can the child always learn to deal with the bullying on their own? Any details or examples would be great! This was Dor’s answer: I didn't address it enough, but you can't provide good therapy without providing good education. That's why I like working in schools because I can easily talk to the teachers. It is clear that we as adults need to talk about values and set boundaries, and in severe cases we may need to intervene and provide a safety net for the therapeutic process. But I feel that it is my job as a therapist to give my patient the tools to deal with their problems on their own. And bullying, like any problem in a relationship, is about guilt. And as soon as I stop blaming the other and start trying to improve myself and treat the other and his wishes with respect the change begins to happen. David: I agree strongly with what you just said! My research when I was in Philadelphia years back strongly supported the notion that blame is one of the main causes of relationship conflicts. Dor continues: In another case of mine, I worked with a child who complained that whoever was sitting on him was yelling at him and throwing things at him. I wasn't sure what could be done and gave him all kinds of bad suggestions At this point a 10-year-old boy with autism stopped me () and asked him what he asked the boy who was bothering him. He said that the he was criticized for the exact same thing--he was making noises that disturbed the boy next to him. From there we continued with homework to find out what is bothering that child, to tell him that he is right, and to ask him if he is ready to stop hitting and yelling at the second patient and his behavior will change. It was a huge success. Dor continues to talk about the idea of specificity which is so central to TEAM-CBT: I discovered that the techniques we teach children should be direct and simple. In the past we believed in all kinds of indirect techniques that were supposed to somehow help the child. The idea is to stop using general definitions like "self-confidence" "concentration abilities" and "social problems." Instead, we can start being specific in our goals and techniques. Rhonda and I were thrilled to learn about Dor’s terrific work adapting TEAM to working with very young people. I encouraged Dor to consider a book on TEAM for TOTS (or some other title) so other therapists can learn how to adapt TEAM to work with children with specific problems such as intense shyness, autism spectrum problem, ADHD, anger issues, and more. Several days after the recording session, Dor was already working on his book. Awesome! Thanks so much for listening today! Rhonda, Dor, and David If you wish to contact Dor, you can email him at: dorstra@gmail.com

Ask David: Featuring Matt May, MD 329: How can you deal with a “narcissist?” In today’s Ask David, we respond to a listener who requested a podcast on the topic of narcissism, including how to deal with them, so we will focus on these topics. The following show notes were prepared prior to the actual podcast to provide a structure. For more great information, listen to the podcast, as much more was covered! David What is the definition of “narcissistic personality disorder”? Narcissism involves: Grandiose fantasies and feelings, thinking that you are superior to others Lack of empathy for others Extreme self-centeredness Intolerance to criticism or disapproval Urges for revenge on anyone who crosses you. We do not know whether these are just extremes of personality characteristics that everyone has in varying degrees, or whether it actually consists of a “disorder” that is qualitatively different and distinct. But it is definitely true that all of the characteristics I have bulleted above do exist to some degree in most, if not all, human beings. How do you treat narcissistic patient? I do not treat diagnoses, just human beings. This is a radical departure from the way many mental health professionals approach their work. No matter who I’m treating, I always start with the T and E of TEAM (Test and Empathy) and then move on to A = Assessment of Resistance (formerly called Paradoxical Agenda Setting.) The main idea is to find out what, if anything, the patient wants help with. It would be rare for someone with narcissistic qualities to want help with their narcissism. Generally, they want help with a troubled relationship or with feelings of depression, anxiety, or anger. Then I would ask them to zero in on one specific moment when they were upset and wanting help, and deal with Outcome and Process Resistance. If the patient can convince me that she or he does want help, then I move on to M = Methods, and the methods would have to do with the nature of the problem they want help with. I once presented a case illustrating rather dramatic and rapid recovery in a patient I was treating for depression and anxiety. To my way of thinking, it was a great outcome. However, during the Q and A I got an angry rebuke from a therapist in the audience who pointed out that I hadn’t treated the patient’s “obvious narcissism.” This is the “great divide.” I don’t feel like it’s my calling to evangelize for any model of “ideal mental health.” For the most part, and there are always exceptions to every rule, I do not impose my agenda on the patients, but try to work with what they want to change. I might suggest possible ways we could work together, but in the final analysis it is up to the patient. I liken my role to that of a plumber. If you’ve got a broken toilet, give me a call and I’ll fix it. But I don’t go from door to door promoting copper pipes! How can you deal with narcissistic individuals in the real world? Once again, it depends on the specific moment that you want help with. However, I always like to emphasize the value of the Disarming Technique and Stroking when interacting with someone with strong narcissistic tendencies. The goal, in my opinion, might be on “dealing with them skillfully” as opposed to “changing” them or “winning.” For example, (David can give example of Erik’s friend when growing up.) What are the causes of narcissism?  Scientists do not know, for the most part, what causes most of the so-called “mental disorders” listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, but it seems possible, even likely, that there could be genetic and environmental causes, and the environmental causes could have to do with the past (childhood influences) and present. For example, when people begin to experience significant success, in academics, sports, or some other field, others begin to admire them and want to be with them. This can fire up our egos, and can feel good. And as they level of fame and status increases, the attraction of others intensifies, and eventually people fear saying no or contradicting the narcissistic person who has such power. So, the narcissistic person is constantly reinforced, even for bad behavior or irrational beliefs, with little or no negative feedback to correct his or her course of actions and thinking. Some experts also point to profound feelings of shame and insecurity under the surface, which might also be genetic, at least in part, or triggered by adverse childhood experiences. What you have to let go of to relate to someone who is narcissistic? To my way of thinking, you have to give up the idea that the narcissistic person is going to take you seriously or care about you, You may also have to give up the notion that you are going to “change” or “help” them. You may have to use a more manipulative approach, using lots of Disarming and Stroking, instead of being so sincere and serious. This involves “letting go,” and moving forward with your life. What is “Malignant Narcissism?” This is a severe form of narcissism where the person will resort to extreme tactics to get their way, including murder. You see this in politics and cults. Names like Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, and even some politicians today around the world, and many despots throughout human history. What does it mean when someone is “manipulative?” David explain that he’s heard that term for years, decades really, but did not understand what it meant until a few weeks ago, based on a personal experience. The group contrasts a relationship based on using people, and seeing them as objects, vs a relationship based on warmth, vulnerability, trust, respect, and openness. Thanks for listening today! Matt, Rhonda, and David

"Overcoming Toxic Shame" Join Dr. Jill Levitt and me  at our fabulous new workshop Sunday, February 5th, 2023 8:30am - 4:30pm PST - 7 CE units Click here for information and registration In today's podcast, David and Jill describe their new workshop on Overcoming Toxic Shame. This workshop will feature video snippets from a fantastic session with a beloved colleague named Melanie who struggled with intense feelings of anxiety and shame for more than 8 years. You will see her transformation from utter despair to joy in a single therapy session lasting roughly two hours, and you will get the chance to learn and practice the techniques that were so transformative for her. Most mental health professionals also struggle with feelings of shame because of their belief that they aren't "good enough" and from fears of being found out. You will have the chance to heal yourself while you master cool new techniques to transform the lives of your patients! In today's podcast, David and Jill do a live demonstration of a couple of the many techniques they will illustrate on February, which will include the Paradoxical Double Standardl Technique, Externalization of Voices, and the Feared Fantasy. You will not only witness a remarkable change in Melanie, as well as a sudden, severe and unexpected relapse half way through the session. David ang Jill will ask, "If you were the therapist, what would you do right now?" What follows is AMAZING! Jill practices and serves as the Director of Training at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View California. She is also co-leader of my Tuesday evening weekly training group at Stanford (now entirely virtual). This group is totally free and is available to mental health professional in the Bay Area and around the world. You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.

Live Therapy with Cody, Part 2 of 2 Last week we presented the first of our session with Cody, a young man wanting help with his fairly severe social anxiety since childhood. My co-therapist for this session was Dr. Rhonda Barovsky, the Feeling Good Podcast co-host, and Director, Feeling Great Therapy Center. Today, you will hear the exciting conclusion of his session, and the follow-up as well! Part 2 M = Methods We focused on cognitive work and interpersonal exposure techniques as well. I will leave it to you to listen to the podcast, as I became so engrossed in what we were doing that I stopped taking notes. However, we used a number of tools within the group, including: Identify the Distortions in his thoughts Examine the Evidence Externalization of Voices Self-Disclosure Rejection Practice The Experimental Technique The Feared Fantasy And more. Cody received an abundant outpouring of love, respect, and encouragement from those in attendance (LINK). We also gave Cody two “homework” assignments to complete following the group. Do at least three Rejection Practices in the mall and notify the training group members via email within 24 hours that he had completed this assignment. Complete the Positive Thoughts column of your Daily Mood Log. If you'd like to see Cody's complet4ed Daily Mood Log, you can check this LINK. If you'd like to see Cody's intimal and final Brief Mood Survey plus Evaluation of Therapy session, check this LINK. As you can see, there were dramatic changes in all of his negative feelings. However, he wanted to retain some anger toward his childhood friends who made fun of him. Here’s the email we received from Cody about his homework assignment. Hello groupers, I can proudly say mission accomplished! Although it took me around 7 hours to do it, I did it. A lot of emotions came up as I kept trying and chickening out. I really feel like something has changed in me, by the last person I felt almost no anxiety and now I keep asking myself why I was ever afraid of this (I hope it sticks. I know I'll need to keep up this momentum I'm sure). Having to do this email and being held accountable to you all was what drove me to the finish line. Thanks again, see you all next week! Thanks to you, Cody. You were incredibly inspiring in group and after and the work you did will touch the hearts of many people, just as you have already touched the hearts of all the people in our group! And thank you all for listening! Cody, Rhonda, and David

Featured pic of Cody in one of the small group practice sessions in David's virtual Tuesday training group. Live Therapy with Cody, Part 1 of 2 I recently treated Cody, a young man wanting help with his fairly severe social anxiety since childhood, during one of our Tuesday evening Stanford training groups. My co-therapist for this session was Rhonda Barovsky, PsyD, the Feeling Good podcast co-host. The full session will be broadcasted in two parts, starting today and finishing next week. Part 1 T = Testing At the start of the session, Cody’s depression score was only 6 out of 20, indicating minimal to mild depression, but his score on the loss of self-esteem was “a lot.” His anxiety score was 11 out of 20, indicating moderate anxiety, and his anger score was only 2, minimal. However his score on the Happiness test was only 11 out of 20, which is only moderately happy, indicating a lot of room for improvement. If you like, you can review his Brief Mood Survey at this LINK. We’ll of course ask him to take this test at the end of today’s session so we can see what, if impact, we made on his feelings. E = Empathy Cody described his shyness like this: “I’ve been shy for as long as I can remember and feel introverted. It started in middle school. I felt like I never fit in or connected with people very deeply. In middle school, you really want to fit in. “I wanted my friends to like me, and one day they all started to torment me. Our seats in school were assigned, so I couldn’t get away from them. I cried at recess every day for months. Then, one day, they suddenly went back to being my friends again, and I never understood why. “When they were tormenting me was the most painful moment of my life. I felt like they were judging me. “I’ve worked on my own and I’ve gotten over 90% of my social anxiety. At first, I was afraid of answering the phone or even ordering a pizza, so I got a job where I was required to answer the phone and got over it. “Now I’d like to date, but this has been a problem for me. Also, when I’m treating someone, and this topic of social anxiety comes up, I get uncomfortable. I think if I could overcome the rest of my shyness, it would boost my confidence. “The podcast you and Rhonda did with Cai on Rejection Practice (LINK) inspired me tremendously, and I managed to do one Rejection Practice. By now I’m chickening out again. I go to the mall determined to do it, but I just keep putting it off. Asking women to reject me seems incredibly frightening, and I’m afraid people will judge me or see me as a predator. I love in a small town, and most people know each other. “When I was thinking about the session all day today, I felt nervous and my stomach tightened up. Cody brought a partially completed Daily Mood Log to the session, which you can review at this LINK. As you can see, the Upsetting Event was thoughts of approaching someone at the mall for Rejection Practice. His negative feelings included the entire anxiety cluster, shame, the entire inadequacy cluster, unwanted, humiliated, embarrassed, the entire hopelessness cluster, frustrated, annoyed, and anger with himself. These feelings ranged from a low of 35% for shame to a high of 100% for foolish and humiliated and 90% for the hopelessness cluster. And as you can see, many of his negative thoughts focused on the theme of being judged by others who might see him and think he was strange, or a disrespectful jerk, and so on. He was also convinced that women would be annoyed by him, and that the word would spread so that he’d lose the respect of people he cared about. A = Assessment of Resistance Cody’s goal for the session was to feel motivated to do the Rejection Practice he’d been avoiding, and to get rid of the negative thoughts that were holding him back. He said he’d be reluctant, though, to press the Magic Button and make all of his negative thoughts and feelings disappear, so we listed what his fears might actually say about him and his core values that was positive and awesome. Here’s the list we came up with: Positives My anxiety My anxiety shows that I care about peoples’ comfort. My anxiety protects me from rejection or doing something foolish. My fears of being seen as a predator show that I want to fit in with the social norms and not be weird or threatening to women. My fears show that I want to be respectful towards women. My fears of being judged show that I care about friends and family. My anxiety shows that I care about my reputation. My feelings of inadequacy show that I’m aware that I have things I want to work on. Those feelings also show that I’m humble. My feelings show that I really care about connecting with others, which is one of the most important things in life! My negative thoughts and feelings motivate me to work hard on changing. They also show that I have high standards. My hopelessness shows that I’ve tried to do Rejection Practice six times and have always chickened out. So I’m being realistic. My hopelessness also protects me from getting my hopes up and then being disappointed. My unhappiness gives me greater compassion for my clients. My anger energizes me and motivates to do something new. Tune in next week for the exciting conclusion of the live work with Cody! David and Rhonda

Curing YOUR Social Anxiety— The Ridiculously Cheap and Awesome Shame-Attacking Marathon Jacob Towery, MD Michael Luo Today, we are joined by Dr. Jacob Towery and Michael Luo to promote their  upcoming, two-day Social Anxiety Marathon. Jacob Towery, MD is an adolescent and adult psychiatrist and therapist in private practice in Palo Alto, California.  Michael Luo is a fourth year medical student at the Chicago Medical School. More on them at the end of the show notes, but here’s the scoop. Jacob and Michael will be offering a mind-blowing, two-day marathon for anyone who struggles with social anxiety, which includes shyness, public speaking anxiety, and performance anxiety. They will both be present, along with more than ten experts in TEAM-CBT, coaching participants in the latest tools for quickly overcoming all social anxiety. And here’s the amazing thing. You can come and attend, and transform your life, for only a $20 donation to one of their four listed amazing charities. For information / registration, click here How cool is that? Don’t pass this up. It will be an in-person, hands-on training experience designed to free you from the fears that narrow your life. You will learn and participate in cognitive therapy exercises, identifying and smashing the distorted thoughts that trigger social anxiety, as well as the Self-Defeating Beliefs that trigger social anxiety like the Spotlight and Brushfire Fallacies, the Approval Addiction, and more. They will also illustrate and lead you in a wide variety of Interpersonal Exposure Techniques, including Smile and Hello Practice, Self-Disclosure (which Michael demonstrates in real time on today’s show), Rejection Practice, Flirting Training, Shame Attacking Exercises, and more. David claims that Jacob is likely the world’s top expert in Shame Attacking Exercises, and we illustrate several on the podcast. Rhonda described a Shame Attacking Exercise that I challenged her with. It was incredibly terrifying, but turned out really well! David also described the impact of self-disclosure on a wealthy and powerful businessman he treated who was so insecure that he was even terrified to be around his wife and children. People who are socially anxious nearly always try hard to hide their negative feelings out of a sense of shame, so others, even friends and family and colleagues, typically aren’t aware of how they feel inside. Michael courageously discloses his own negative thoughts that triggered feelings of social anxiety at being around Jacob, his mentor. Maybe I’ll make a mistake. I might be wasting Jacob’s time. Then he might not want to mentor me. These thoughts caused feelings of loneliness and shame. I felt much closer to Michael when he disclose these feelings. Jacob added that he was totally unaware that Michael had been struggling with these thoughts and feelings. The treatment of social anxiety is profoundly serious, because we are involved in changing the lives of people who are suffering and lonely and inhibited, but the treatment can also be fun, hilarious and of course, enlightening. Michael wraps up the show by describing the transformation this training has had on his own life. If you wish to attend, act rapidly because space is limited and will be given out on a first-come, first-serve basis. I hope you can attend, and make sure you let Rhonda and David know about your experiences! Thanks for listening today! Rhonda, Jacob, Michael, and David

Secrets of Overcoming Romantic Rejection Part 2 of 2 In last week's podcast we interviewed Dr. Kyle Jones on the topic of how to overcome romantic rejection, and answered five of your questions. Today we publish Part 2 of that interview. Rhonda, Kyle and David will tell you how to stop obsessing about someone who has rejected you, and whether you can "heal completely,"and how you can get your confidence back, and more! 6. Do you have any tips for moving on and realizing that maybe your ex isn’t as great as you think they are? David 20 qualities I’m looking for in an ideal mate. Rhonda Time, patience, space away from each other. Make lists of qualities you liked about your ex and qualities you wish were different.  Fill out the form: “20 Qualities in An Ideal Mate” and review how many of these qualities your ex had. 7. Since cheating is something that happens so often in relationships, what would you recommend (techniques wise) for someone who’s been cheated on in trying to get their confidence back? David YOU CAN USE THE DAILY MOOD LOG, DOUBLE STANDARD, ETC. OVERCOME FEAR OF BEING ALONE. ETC. Examine the Evidence; Worst, Best, Average. Kyle Cheating can be really devastating if you and your significant other were in a monogamous relationship. What are the negative thoughts you have about yourself after you’ve been cheated on? Practice talking back to those. 8. How can we boost our confidence back up after a breakup in general even if we haven’t been cheated on? David SAME ANSWER. Rhonda Do things you love to do with people who love you:  go dancing, go to the beach, go hear music, read, etc. Daily Mood Log on the thoughts that lead to your lack of confidence. 9. Do you guys believe in the notion that you are capable of “healing completely from your ex (aka completely being over them and all the pain the breakup brought you)” or do you believe that it’s not possible. David I MEASURE THINGS. YOU CAN DO WAY BETTER AS YOU GROW. IS THERE A CLAIM THAT THERE IS NOW AN INVISIBLE BARRIER ON YOUR SCORE ON THE BMS. THIS IS SUCH, EXCUSE MY CRUDITY, HOGWASH! HOPEFULLY, YOU’LL NEVER AGAIN FIND SOMEONE JUST LIKE THE PERSON WHO REJECTED YOU! Rhonda You may never be exactly the same, why would you want to be?  Every experience in life gives you the opportunity to grow (as cliche and kind of yucky as that sounds). Maybe you need to acknowledge and examine your role in the breakup, come to a place of humility or maybe even compassion, but definitely understanding. Interpersonal Downward Arrow to look at the Roles and Rules in your past relationships.  Relationship Journal to see how you have contributed to the relationship problems.  Maybe do Reattribution to see what you contributed to the relationship problems and what they did. 10. What are some realistic expectations to have coming out of a breakup, recovery wise, and what are some unrealistic expectations? David I DON’T IMPOSE MY STANDARDS AND AGENDAS ON OTHERS! THAT’S LIKE MISSIONARY WORK, TRYING TO GET SOMEONE TO ADOPT YOUR STANDARDS. I TRY TO LISTEN (EMPATHY) AND THEN SET THE AGENDA WITH THE PATIENT, AND THE NEGOTIATION STEP IS SOMETIMES IMPORTANT. I ALSO USE STORY TELLING TO ILLUSTRATE A RADICALLY DIFFERENT REALITY FROM WHAT THE PATIENT “SEES.” Rhonda I can’t add anything to that, except, after examining your role in the relationship, you may see the expectations you want to eliminate and the ones you want to maintain. 11. Do you guys feel that you shouldn’t date for a while after getting your heart broken? David THIS CAN BE A GREAT IDEA. I ALWAYS INSIST, AS PART OF NEGOTIATION PHASE OF AGENDA SETTING, THAT THE PERSON OVERCOME THE FEAR OF BEING ALONE BEFORE DATING, WHETHER OR NOT A REJECTION HAPPENED. Rhonda This is a very personal decision.  Have you had time to heal before getting into a new relationship?  Have you had time to examine your role so you can make changes if you choose, so you won’t repeat the same mistakes in the next relationship? 12. Do you have to move on from your ex to go back out into the dating world again and to possibly be in a relationship again? Do you guys feel that “jumping” from relationship to relationship can be a bad thing? Why or why not? David THESE THINGS ARE ALWAYS ON AN INDIVIDUAL BASIS. I THINK IT CAN BE HEALTHY TO DATE A VARIETY OF PEOPLE AND NOT GLOM ONTO THE FIRST PERSON WHO EXPRESSES AN INTEREST IN YOU. THAT WAY, YOU CAN COMPARE A VARIETY OF RELATIONSHIPS AND IN ADDITION, YOUR DATING SKILLS WILL IMPROVE. THE “20 THINGS I’M LOOKING FOR IN AN IDEAL MATE” CAN BE VALUABLE. Rhonda “Jumping from relationship to relationship” sounds so judgmental.  Are you finding yourself in relationships where you have similar complaints from your last relationship, repeating patterns that you dislike?  Then I would pause and take time to heal and learn before starting another one. Kyle What does be “moved on” really mean here? Would you have to never have a thought about your ex again before dating? That might be impossible! I don’t think there’s anything wrong with dating multiple people or starting and stopping relationships with some frequency – especially if you’re looking for a good fit and it’s not working out with someone. 13. How do you overcome your trust issues when getting into another relationship after your heartbreak? David PATIENT WOULD HAVE TO GIVE ME A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE, AND NOT DEAL WITH THIS OR ANYTHING “ABSTRACTLY.” Rhonda Daily Mood Log work, starting with a specific event that led to the lack of trust. Let us know if you would like a third podcast on how to deal with romantic rejection at some point, since we have a number of remaining questions. Thanks! My book, Intimate Connections, will help you with dating and rejection issues! You can contact Dr. Kyle Jones at kyle@feelinggoodinstitute.com End of Part 2

Secrets of Overcoming Romantic Rejection Part 1 of 2 In today’s podcast we are proud to interview Dr. Kyle Jones from the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California. Kyle Jones, PhD is a clinical psychology postdoctoral fellow affiliated with Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California where he provides individual psychotherapy in a private practice. He co-leads a monthly consultation group with Maggie Holtam, PhD where therapists can get help with exposure methods for anxiety. He has recently become an Adjunct Professor of Psychology at Palo Alto University - teaching Clinical Interviewing in the clinical psychology PhD program. Kyle wrote: “Here are some questions from patients of mine for our podcast today - we don't have to go through all of these bust just some talking points!" We will publish part of the questions in today's podcast, and several more next week. There are even more questions, so let us know if you would want a Part 3 on this topic at some time in the future. Below you will find the list of questions with some responses by David and Rhonda BEFORE the podcast. To get the true scoop, listen to the podcast, as most of the comments below were simply ideas that popped into our heads prior to the podcast. Although we focus on romantic rejection in these two podcasts, the idea really pertain to rejection in all segments of our lives. 1. Why do you think it’s so hard for us humans to handle rejection/why do you think we are so afraid of it? David THE LOVE ADDICTION SDB. LOOKING TO EXTERNAL SOURCES FOR FEELINGS OF SELF-WORTH AND HAPPINESS. THE CBA IS CRUCIAL, SINCE PEOPLE MAY NOT WANT TO STOP LINKING SELF WORTH WITH LOVE. Rhonda Plus, it hurts.  And our brain is wired to experience pain when rejected.  We are wired that way. Evolutionary psychologists believe it all started when we were hunter gatherers who lived in clans. Since we could not survive alone, being ostracized from our clan was basically a death sentence. As a result, we developed an early warning system to alert us when we were at risk of being rejected by our tribemates. People who experienced rejection as more painful were more likely to change their behavior, remain in the clan, and pass along their genes. Kyle Getting dumped sucks! We aren’t really taught how to handle rejection very well in our culture. 2. Are we capable of overcoming the fear of rejection and how do we accomplish that?  David You can face your fear with REJECTION PRACTICE. The FIRST SECTION OF INTIMATE CONNECTIONS IS ON OVERCOMING THE FEAR OF BEING ALONE. Rhonda Is part of the fear of rejection also a fear of being alone?  You can use the “What If” technique to uncover more about those fears.  Then put the thoughts in a Daily Mood Log, and challenge them with a variety of techniques you can select for a Recovery Circle. You can also face your fears with Rejection Practice and/or Exposure. 3. When it comes to getting dumped do you guys believe there is a good way to approach it communicating wise? David YOU CAN USE FIVE SECRETS TO FIND OUT WHY THE OTHER PERSON IS REJECTING YOU. OR, PERHAPS BETTER, YOU CAN TURN THE TABLES ON THE REJECTOR, SINCE IT IS PART OF A CHASE GAME. Rhonda If you want to know more about why you were “dumped,” will you trust the other person to be honest with you?  Will you believe them when they respond?  You might want to do a Cost Benefit Analysis to decide whether or not you even want to ask them to explain why you were “dumped.” Kyle It depends on the situation. If you have gone through a divorce and have children, you may still need to talk with you ex-partner. Generally, I don’t think it’s a good idea to stay in touch and keep chatting with an ex who dumped you! 4. If we are caught off guard with the breakup and don’t see it coming and all of a sudden one day our partner decides to end the relationship, how do we not let our emotions get the best of us in that moment in that very moment? David WHEN YOU SAY, “GET THE BEST OF US” IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU’RE NOT ACCEPTING YOUR FEELINGS. IS IT OKAY TO FEEL FEELINGS? THIS QUESTION SOUNDS LIKE EMOTOPHOBIA. Rhonda It’s perfectly reasonable to be sad, to cry, to be shocked and angry.  Why not have those feelings?  You also don’t have to expect to respond with a “perfect 5-Secrets.”  Maybe you need to take a break from each other, breathe, walk, calm down, and then meet again to talk talk, if that is what you want to do. Kyle If you get blindsided by a breakup it can really be shocking and overwhelming. It’s okay to feel how you feel in that moment I would think. 5. When it comes to recovery after being broken up with, how do you fight the urge to go back to your ex? David THIS URGE IS DUE TO THE BURNS RULE: WE ONLY WHAT WE CAN’T GET, AND NEVER WANT WHAT WE CAN GET. ALSO, CAN DO A CBA ON CHASING. Rhonda Also, look at the thoughts that are leading you to want to get back together.  What do they say about you that is awesome?  Then examine them for Cognitive Distortions, and talk back to them with Dbl Standard or Ext of Voices. Do a “Time Projection,” see yourself in 5 years, in 10 years, in 20 years.  Have a conversation with your future selves to talk about what you want, what kind of person you want to be with, how you want to be treated in the future. Practice “Distraction,” when you start thinking about your “ex” distract yourself by concentrating intensely on something else, music, work, friends, cooking, another hobby. Kyle Come back to reality and remember all the crummy ways an ex may have been treating you, instead of letting your mind ruminate on how great things were during the first few weeks of dating. Come up with all the good reasons to continue wishing/hoping you and your ex will get back together and talk back to those. My book, Intimate Connections, will help you with dating and rejection issues! Stay tuned for Part 2 next week.

How Skillful is your Shrink! Now you can find out! The Exciting Recovery Coefficient-- and the FEAR the grips the hearts of the therapists who are afraid to use it! People often wonder how skillful or effective their therapist is, but until now, there was no very valid or precise way to know. But now there is, and it has fantastic implications for psychotherapy. Today, we feature an interview with Kevin Cornelius, a therapist at the Feeling Good Institute in Mountain View, California.  Kevin Cornelius is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in private practice at Feeling Good Institute, with in-person counseling for teens .Kevin is a Certified Level 4 Advanced TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer. I asked Kevin to write a brief description of his evolution from a career in acting to his career as a shrink. Here’s what he wrote: After many years of working as an actor I was ready for a change. After some painful personal events, I saw a therapist who was quite helpful to me. She helped me see that changing to a career as a therapist could be a great thing for me. I went to school and got my Master's in Marriage and Family Therapy. Just before I began applying for internships to complete licensure, I learned that the children's theatre group I had grown up in was looking for a new supervisor to lead the group following the death of its beloved founder and leader. This was a wonderful opportunity for me to use my theatre skills and my desire to help young people in their growth and development. I was very fortunate to be hired and worked as the director of the children's theatre group for 19 years. Towards the end of my years with the children's theatre, I was ready for a change and thought it might be time for me to finish getting my therapy license. It had been 15 years since I had worked with a patient in a therapy session, so I had a lot to learn! I was so lucky to discover David Burns and his amazing TEAM-CBT. The testing element of TEAM enabled me to see right away where I needed to improve so I could focus my efforts on improving specific skills. Being able to study with David in his Tuesday group at Stanford was a golden opportunity. Here was a framework designed to make therapy as effective as possible being taught (for free!) by one of the world's greatest therapists. I'm so happy I followed David's advice to get involved at Feeling Good Institute while I was still pre-licensed. Learning TEAM while I was completing the process to earn my license as a therapist enabled me to start my career in private practice with confidence and a stable foundation. Now, I get to continue learning from mentors at Feeling Good Institute, from the wonderful Feeling Good Podcast, and the valuable lessons I get from my patients. I'll sum up my good fortune with a theatre reference and quote the Gershwins: "Who could ask for anything more?" Kevin recently made the courageous decision to find out exactly how he was doing as a therapist. And the results surprised him tremendously. Background Information for today’s podcast Outcome studies with competing schools of psychotherapy in the treatment of depression have been disappointing. They all seem to come out about the same, slightly better than placebos, but not much. For example, in the British CoBalT study of 469 depressed patients treated with antidepressants vs antidepressants plus CBT, only 44% of the patients treated with antidepressants plus CBT experienced a 50% improvement in depression after six months of treatment, and the multi-year follow-up results weren’t any better. This was better than the patients treated with antidepressants alone, (only 22% experienced a 50% improvement), but still—to my way of thinking—very poor. We see more improvement than that in just one day in patients using the Feeling Good App. Here are just two of many online references to that landmark study: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(15)00495-2/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lanpsy/PIIS2215-0366(15)00495-2.pdf Because of the disappointing results of research on the so-called "schools" of psychotherapy, the focus is switching, to some extent, to the effects of individual therapists, since even within a school of therapy, there can be huge differences in therapists’ effectiveness. Some therapists seem to have the proverbial “green thumb,” with many patients improving rapidly, while others seem much less effective. Is there a way to measure this? Now there is! And do patients have a right to know how effective their shrinks are? That’s what I’m proposing! For at least twenty years or more, I’ve been trying to sell therapists on my Brief Mood Survey with every patient at every session. That’s because you can see exactly and immediately how depressed, anxious, or angry, etc. your patient was at the start and end of today’s session. This allows therapists to see, for the first time, exactly how much the patient improved in various dimensions within the session, as well as how much the patient relapsed or continued to improve between sessions. Here’s a simple example. To make things really clear, let’s imagine that your depression test goes from 0 (not at all depressed) to 100 (the worst depression imaginable, and your patient has an 80 at the start of today’s session. That would indicate a horrendously severe depression, similar to patients hospitalized with depression. And yet, your patient might be functioning effectively, and might appear reasonably happy. So, bonus #1, you can see exactly how your patient was feeling at the start of the session. You might think of the BMS as an “emotional X-ray machine.” Now, let’s assume you have an excellent session, and feel like you’re clicking with the patient, and the patient scores 40 on the end-of-session BMS. That would be a phenomenal 50% improvement. Of course, a score of 40 means that the patient is still moderately depressed, and has a way to go, still the goal is a score of 0 on the depression test and a huge boost in the patient’s score on the happiness test on the BMS. Keep in mind that in the dozens of psychotherapy outcome studies that have been published worldwide, the very highest levels of improvement in months and months of therapy are  never higher than this. So, I call this the Recovery Coefficient (RC), and it is a very precise measure of any therapist’s effectiveness in treating anything you can measure accurately. In an informal study of de-identified data of more than 10,000 therapy sessions at a local treatment center about two years ago. I discovered that the RC the first time therapists met with their patients predicted the improvement over the entire course of therapy. In addition, different therapists had vastly different initial RC scores, which can range from -100% in a single session (meaning a complete elimination of symptoms)  to +100% in a single session (meaning severe worsening.) Sadly, because all patient or therapist identifying information was removed to protect identities, I had no way of letting the therapists know their skill levels! But today, we are joined by a therapist who had the guts to calculate his RC in ten patients to see how he was doing. He was initial incredibly demoralize with his percent reductions (RC) of 45% for depression and 47% for anxiety in 50 minute sessions,  He reasoned that a 44% in a class would be a failing grade, but I pointed out that this isn’t the right comparison. After all, if you had a contract to build the Brooklyn Bridge, and could complete nearly half of it in 50 minutes, you’d be doing something incredibly amazing. Kevin's Depression and Anxiety Recovery Coefficient Calculations     Depression Anxiety Empathy 1 Before 6 14 20 After 3 1   % Change -50.00% -92.86%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 2 Before 5 6 20 After 1 3   % Change -80.00% -50.00%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 3 Before 12 10 20 After 9 9   % Change -25.00% -10.00%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 4 Before 10 5 20 After 5 3   % Change -50.00% -40.00%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 5 Before 5 9 18 After 3 5   % Change -40.00% -44.44%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 6 Before 18 15 20 After 10 9   % Change -44.44% -40.00%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 7 Before 14 12 20 After 10 6   % Change -28.57% -50.00%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 8 Before 2 9 18 After 4 5   % Change 50.00% -44.44%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 9 Before 2 1 20 After 0 1   % Change -100.00% 0.00%       Depression Anxiety Empathy 10 Before 6 5 20 After 1 0   % Change -83.33% -100.00%       Depression Anxiety Empathy Recovery Coefficient   -45.13% -47.17% 19.6                     And indeed, Kevin’s scores actually showed he was outperforming all the published outcome studies on depression by a factor of several hundred. Which was, I think, a well-deserved pleasant shock to his system! I’ve always had tremendous admiration and respect for Keven because of his obvious great skill and intelligence combined with world-class compassion and humility. In addition, patients complete the Evaluation of Therapy Session (ETS) immediately after the session, and rate the therapist on Empathy, Helpfulness, and other crucially important dimensions. Kevin’s Empathy score was 19.6 (96.5%), indicating near perfect empathy ratings from his patients. This is extremely impressive, since most therapists get failing Empathy scores from nearly all of their patients when they start using the ETS scales. However, what was really cool is that Kevin brought the Daily Mood Log he prepared prior to the podcast. As you can see if you check the link, recording his intense negative feelings and self-critical thoughts when he initially completed his calculations. This helps to explain the fear that so many therapists—nearly all—feel when it comes to being accountable for the first time in the history of psychotherapy. Here's what he was telling himself: I’m not doing well enough. I’m fooling myself. I’m letting my patients down. I’m a fraud. I should be better. I should charge less. I suck! During the podcast, we used some TEAM-CBT to deal with these concerns live, in real time, using Positive Reframing, Identify the Distortions, Examine the Evidence, and Externalization of Voices to smash these thoughts. If you’d like to see the Positive Reframing Table he brought to the session, you can check here. In Kevin’s case, the RC calculations, which are simple and only take a minute, gave him a huge gift—the confirmation of his immense technical therapeutic skills as well as his empathy. But what if you’re not like Kevin, and you discover that your RCs are not so great, and that your Empathy ratings are in the failing range. Isn’t that kind of terrible? Well, it depends on how big your ego is, and how motivated you are to improve. I’ve gotten plenty of horrible ratings on the ETS, and have had lots of sessions with poor outcomes, including sessions when I wrongly believed I was doing a great job. It DOES hurt. But over the years, my patients have dramatically shaped my therapy approach, and have become my greatest teachers by far. I now enjoy pretty tremendous outcomes with the vast majority of the people I treat, but could never have improved without the constant feedback. Psychotherapy skills are a lot like athletic workouts, and they say, “no pain, no gain.” This is definitely just as true for shrinks. Are you a shrink? Do you have the courage to check out your skills? Here are a couple more random comments. Over the years I’ve seen the scores of many therapists in training, and many established shrinks in the community. And sometimes I’ve been surprised that some of the big name, flashy people were actually very unskilled in real therapy situations. And I’ve also seen that some of the giants of our field, were humble, kindly individuals, like Kevin, who were quietly working miracles, but not even realizing it. And I also had this brainstorm. If you’re a patient, and your shrink refuses to use the BMS and ETS, for whatever reason, you could take the test prior to and after each session, and calculate your therapist’s Empathy Scores and Recovery Coefficient scores. Mmm. I am thinking there might be a business model in here somewhere! Like a website where you could take the tests and get all the calculations automatically. And maybe that type of information could be published... After all, wouldn’t patients LOVE to have this information BEFORE going to a new shrink for treatment. And isn’t that EXACTLY where our field should be moving? Accountability and transparency? I hope you enjoyed meeting the incredible Kevin Cornelius today. Thank you for listening and supporting our Feeling Good Podcasts! Warmly, david