Time To Say Goodbye

Greetings from Berkeley, Philadelphia, and Tacoma! This week, we chat about Viet Thanh Nguyen’s recent essay on Asian America, race, and class (Time); the abolition of whiteness advocated by Jay’s former mentor, Noel Ignatiev; and the dead-ends and possibilities of race talk in media. * Remember to keep sending us feedback and questions via Twitter at @ttsgpod or via email at timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. * 3:35 – Nguyen’s article on the “trap of the ‘model minority’ stereotype.” In what ways is the category “Asian American” limiting, and in what ways is it enabling—or something we might productively transcend? 30:43 – How to be an Asian American race traitor: we discuss the journal Race Traitor, about “treason to whiteness,” and consider analogies to the professional Asian class. What’s the difference between the radical historians of whiteness and White Fragility? Can we practice anti-racist politics without reifying racial categories?49:48 – Are diversity gestures in the media world distraction from or emulation of real social change? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hi, all:Just Andy this time, with a Thursday edition bonus episode, in which I talk with Brian Hioe of New Bloom, a bilingual online magazine with radical analysis of Taiwan and East Asia. On Monday, New Bloom published an explainer essay on the very confusing phenomenon of “tankies,” aka people who argue that the true leftist position is to support the Chinese Communist Party as a check on US imperialism. Most famously, tankies denounce the Hong Kong protests as bourgeois and right-wing, as puppets of US empire.Their statements are at once funny and depressing, amusing and exhausting. I think Brian and I agree, though, that they are worth taking seriously because they reflect a very real set of tensions in global politics—with few clear solutions.Whom do we “side with” in an increasingly closed-off, nationalistic world? Must critics of US foreign policy — and the long history of Euro-American colonialism and imperialism — choose other states to support instead? For a Gen Z critical of free-market neoliberalism, what “actually existing” alternatives are there to global capitalism?The New Bloom piece explores these questions by examining the mysterious Qiao Collective, whose members ostensibly belong to the left-nationalist Chinese diaspora. When it comes to the Asian diaspora (though not unique to it), there is the always fun, extra ingredient of confused identity and an unfulfilled sense of belonging, heightened by local xenophobic rhetoric.Given these factors, Brian fears that tankie ideology may continue to spread.Issues we touch on:* Are Hong Kong’s protests “right-wing” if their citizens espouse xenophobia?* Is the category “diaspora,” or huaqiao 華僑, good or bad?* The Orientalism and self-orientalizing of tankies* Tankies and US Republicans as bizarro mirror images of one anotherIs there potential for common dialogue? With tankies or with the everyday people of China?!!!Links:* New Bloom: “The Qiao Collective and Left Diasporic Chinese Nationalism”* Today (June 25) marks the 70-year anniversary of the start of the Korean War. KAP SEOL reminds us, “The US Didn’t Bring Freedom to South Korea — Its People Did” (Jacobin).* The Critical China Scholars group (new site) will hold the 2nd of two webinars next Thursday (July 2) on the topic of “Against Racism and Nationalism.” Register at eventbrite here.* A developing story worth monitoring is the border dispute between China and India, about one week old now. In India, there is now a call to boycott Chinese goods (most recently by hotels (SCMP), but analysts in India are skeptical if it’s even possible (The Quint). Worth paying attention to, if only because of the recent calls by other countries to decouple from China.* Under-the-radar news: the Trump administration this week exploited the coronavirus pandemic to extend a ban on multiple visas into the US, from “high-skilled” (H-1B) to seasonal labor (H-2B) and other categories. Early analysis here (Common Dreams).* Part of the hopeful wave of primary victories this week, Yuh-Line Niou successfully defended her seat against challenger Grace Lee in the Democratic primary for New York’s 65th Assembly District (including Wall Street and Chinatown). Beyond the superficial similarities of two Asian-American women running in the Democratic party, the two candidates represented different constituencies and political visions, a microcosm of the ongoing fight between liberals and progressives within the party (The Indypendent): As always, feedback, questions, and comments are welcome. On Twitter, @ttsgpod. By email, timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com.The best way to support us is to: This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from Oakland, Philadelphia, and New York!It’s just the three of us this week, talking Koreaboos and soft power, protest goals, and, as promised, Robin DiAngelo’s bestselling book White Fragility.But before we get into all that, a belated shout-out to our long-suffering audio editor (and master gardener) James Nicholson. And warm thanks to you, our dear listeners and subscribers. We hope to make this podcast and newsletter more interactive, so please be in touch with feedback and questions—which we may even answer on air! You can reach us via Twitter at @ttsgpod or via email at timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. (We can keep you anonymous, if you’d like.)  2:57 – Can K-pop fans save us from Trump? Also: the contradictory racial politics of the BTS Army, hallyu (Korean wave) economics (hint: Jurassic Park), Jay on TikTok, and the vindicatory gift of the Koreaboo. This week’s segment on internalized racism: Tammy and Jay call out uncritical Korean nationalism.37:27 – We check in on the protests in New York, the infamous South Philly videos, and Oakland. Jay provides a vicarious boost of internationalist energy from the longshoremen’s union and the great Angela Davis in Oakland. (Fact-check: the #1 busiest port in the US is not Oakland but LA–Long Beach).54:13 – (White) people seem to love White Fragility. We discuss the incredible reach of its overly narrow remit (corporate diversity retreats) and wonder how to get America past “personal responsibility” race talk to an analysis aimed at social transformation. Does “white fragility” get in the way of structural change? And is Gen Z immune to an identity politics based on guilt and deference? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from the American rebellion!A packed episode on the BLM protests from our vantage point as cynical Asians and former Seattle residents. (Yes, Mukilteo counts.) We discuss the evolving Capitol Hill Occupied Protest both at the top of the show and in the second half, when we interview special guest Dae Shik Kim, Jr., a Seattle-based journalist and activist. We also get into the latest controversies on Asian American twitter, including a “chewy and bland” tweet about tofu and a handful of viral videos featuring racist Karens. On a more hopeful note, we talk about a writer we admire, Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor, and her recent piece on the generational divide in black electoral politics. 1:06 – The ongoing occupation of Capitol Hill in Seattle and whether the city can successfully balance its focus on racism-specific issues with more general economic grievances (think “Tax Amazon”; her name is pronounced “Sha-ma”). Bonus: a bizarre Philly DSA statement.15:02 – Bloomberg Asia’s bizarre tweet hating on tofu (screengrab because Bloomberg has since deleted it):Also, why food seems so central to Asian American outrage, the timeless “cultural appropriation” debate, and how much we’d pay for an “authentic” Asian meal (not a lot!).27:35 – This week, a couple videos of white women in California harassing Asian people went viral. Are these videos an appropriate way for Asians to link up with racial-justice struggles? Plus, a hobbyhorse of ours: Asians and the category “POC.”39:56 – We unpack a recent piece by Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor titled, “The End of Black Politics.” Tammy recently hosted a teach-in with Keeanga and Marc Lamont Hill. 47:25 – Seattle-based journalist and activist Dae Shik Kim, Jr. explains the ongoing Capitol Hill Occupied Protest. Why the name change from “autonomous zone”? What are the demands of the “decriminalize Seattle” group? Finally, how Dae Shik has processed this moment as a mixed-race (Korean and Black) person.Also, a quick announcement: Andy will be participating in a webinar on Thursday (June 18, 7-830P US ET) hosted by a group of scholars of China who want to stake out a left politics against both US and Chinese nationalism. If you’re interested, please register here:https://www.eventbrite.com/e/left-perspectives-on-the-world-and-china-part-one-tickets-109214433310Below, a brief description and poster:Viral Politics: Left Perspectives on the World and China, Part Oneby Verso BooksThe COVID-19 pandemic has become the latest locus of growing US-China tensions, opening crucial conversations for the international left related to the principles of anti-capitalism, anti-authoritarianism, anti-racism, and anti-imperialism.As critical scholars of China, we will take up these issues in a two-part webinar series.We begin with the questions: How can we move from scapegoating China to developing an analysis of capitalism, authoritarianism and imperialism as global systems that produce crises and injustices? How can we address proliferating social inequalities, political oppression, and environmental degradation amid geopolitical tensions? How do we counter China-bashing abroad without sidelining the legitimate concerns of Chinese citizens and social movements in China? How do we address rising xenophobia, racism, and nationalism in pandemic times? And, what is the role of China scholars in producing critical knowledge and engaging with political questions?Co-sponsored by:Haymarket Books, n+1, Made in China Journal, The Nation, New Politics, The Political Economy Research Institute (PERI), Spectre Journal, and Justice is Global This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello! This is our freshest recording yet—part one made just hours ago. In this episode, we talk about the latest hotspot in the Black Lives Matter uprising: Seattle, near where Andy and Tammy grew up and where Jay has family; and Jay and Andy review the new ESPN documentary on Bruce Lee. We then welcome our special guest (and Andy’s friend and fellow Philadelphian) Nikil Saval, the presumptive winner(!) of a seat in the Pennsylvania State Senate. (There is no Republican in the race.) Follow the results with us here.3:24 - Jay packs his bags for the anarcho-socialist(?), abolitionist commune of Capitol Hill, Seattle. Why such radical resistance in Bezosland? Where does the uprising go from here? (Andy’s audio fails for a bit at 13:15; keep listening!)20:12 - Is Be Water, the Bruce Lee documentary, any good? Does it go beyond representational politics and potted history? Andy and Jay offer their thoughts. (Tammy hasn’t seen it but chimes in anyway.)30:08 - We speak with Nikil Saval (taped Sunday, June 7, 2020) about his recent primary election for State Senate district 1 in Pennsylvania. Nikil gives an update on the votes and talks about balancing his two lives as writer and as labor organizer.Also: Nikil explains how his South Asian background was brought into the campaign and how he had to parry his opponent’s nativist strategy. He discusses how Covid-19 and then the Floyd protests changed the tenor of the campaign. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

A special welcome to all new subscribers!  Today’s episode is about the murder of George Floyd and the actions around the country. A few days ago, Jay wrote in our newsletter about Tou Thao, the Hmong cop who participated in Floyd’s killing, and “the myths of Asian American solidarity.” Jay describes what motivated this post, and we discuss when Asian American self-reflection is useful versus narcissisticTammy and Jay describe the protests they attended in Brooklyn and Oakland, respectively, over the weekend (May 29 and 30). We also discuss the allegation—made by local, state, and national officials as well as liberal media—that the uprisings in Minneapolis and other cities have been the work of “outside agitators.” Finally, Andy asks whether having an international spotlight on these protests could serve progressive ends. 0:30- We discuss Jay’s essay, “Tou Thao and the Myths of Asian American Solidarity,” which preceded the first Minnesota protests.5:45 -  Street updates from Tammy (Brooklyn) and Jay (Oakland). 26:50- Tammy explains the theory and practice of mutual aid, and we unpack the unsubstantiated news of “outside agitators.” (Note that the Minneapolis government retracted this claim after an investigation into arrest records, but other parties have continued to run with it.) 59:20- Andy lays out a bizarre parallel: American conservatives support the Hong Kong protests but denounce Black Lives Matter; tankies believe the opposite. Could this moment present an opportunity for international solidarity? How might we use international criticism of the U.S. to support a left agenda?ABOUT USTime to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.A short introduction to your hosts:Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello!In this episode, we chat about relocating during the pandemic, reading (or, in Jay’s case, not reading) physical books, and the University of California system’s recent decision to suspend use of the SAT in admissions.We then give a transnational welcome to Jenny Chan, professor of sociology and China studies at Hong Kong Polytechnic University and co-author of the forthcoming book, Dying for an iPhone. Jenny has devoted the last decade to researching labor conditions and activism in China, especially at Foxconn plants, where migrants and student “interns” build Apple gadgets for export. She speaks with us about the global struggle for workers’ rights and what Beijing’s recent crackdown on Hong Kong means for her community.   1:03 - Andy outs himself as someone who(se employer) hires people to pack his belongings.  5:45 -  Is the UC’s rejection of the SAT “anti-Asian”? How do we change the zero-sum game of higher education and prevent Asian American students from getting red-pilled? For background, read Jay’s story on Asian Americans and affirmative action.20:39 -  Does the mainstream debate over affirmative action force progressive Asian Americans to act against their own self-interest? Bonus: a ZIP code thought experiment, and why freshman Bill Chang does not want to room with his best friend Bill Chang.30:16 - Jenny explains how Hong Kongers are dealing with the coronavirus and reacting to a new national security law proposed by the central government in Beijing, bypassing Hong Kong. She is hopeful that Hong Kongers will continue to fight for their democratic values.38:16 - Jenny discusses her work on labor issues in the region. In Hong Kong, democracy protests have spurred a historic rise of unionization; in China, labor activists have battled employers and the state, even in the face of repressive tactics. She tells us why people around the world should care about China’s working class.51:06 - Is China the next logical site of a mass labor movement? With a workforce of nearly one billion people, it seems to offer the greatest potential. Elite Chinese university students have taken notice, too, and are organizing in solidarity with workers. Jenny discusses how their generation has been shaped by the negative consequences of globalization. ABOUT USTime to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.A short introduction to your hosts:Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello! We’re extremely excited about today’s episode, which includes a lengthy interview with Mike Davis, a friend of the international working class and the author of works such as Prisoners of the American Dream, City of Quartz, and Planet of Slums. We talk about “this moment,” and the need for dissent, street protest and the refusal of the false choice laid out in front of working people between risking their health and complete financial ruin. He also tells us about his rock collection.Mike has been writing and giving a lot of interviews during the pandemic, as many have discovered his prophetic 2005 book, The Monster at Our Door: The Global Threat of Avian Flu. And earlier this year, Mike and his friend, Jon Wiener, published Set the Night on Fire: L.A. in the Sixties, a stunning history of social movements—led by black, Chicano, and Asian Angelenos—that reads like a playbook for organizing against our terrible present. 1:20 - Mike describes his holed-up multigenerational homelife in San Diego—with his wife, the curator and professor Alessandra Montezuma, twin high-schoolers, and Alessandra’s aunt. Also: why working-class leftists should protest the false choice of lockdown or death; and why Biden should be more like AOC. “We cannot yield the street,” Mike tells us.18:08 - Central to the US Covid response has been the literal sacrifice of elders and disabled people in nursing homes. Mike tells us why this constitutes manslaughter, and predicts that Filipino/a health care workers may be among the top casualties of the pandemic. Plus: why food insecurity in Africa, South Asia, and South America should be everyone’s concern. 35:48 - “The Yellow Peril is back,” Mike says. He talks about Trump’s and Biden’s demonization of China, and their neglect of the risk of nuclear war. And he explains why “the world described in Karl Marx’s Capital is most true in China.” 55:00 - Mike is still in touch with white working-class pals from 1952 (some of them Trumpers). He describes multiculturalist thinking as “Janus-faced,” but praises young activists, including his twins, for their instinctively radical conceptions of race, class, and gender.1:08:43 - Can housing organizing be as powerful a vehicle for working-class movements as labor organizing? Mike offers a historical perspective. And a Time to Say Goodbye exclusive: Mike’s extensive rock collection. Click here for a transcript of our conversation. ABOUT USTime to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.A short introduction to your hosts:Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from the US lockdown!It’s just the three of us this episode, chatting about soggy bread and soggier humans—and all things China, America’s best frenemy and the official scapegoat of the 2020 election. 1:00 - What's the deal with focaccia? Tammy loves it, but Jay and Andy associate it with terrible sandwiches on Manhattan’s Upper West Side.3:17 - The Goopy cook and columnist Alison Roman got semi-canceled last week. We unwisely weigh in on this racialized controversy among wealthy celebrity foodies and lifestyle-brand influencers.7:43 - In honor of Asian American Pacific Islander heritage month, we debate the utility of panels. Why so many? Are they capable of tackling broader structures and patterns, or do they necessarily champion capitalistic upward mobility? Also: the historian checklist of Yellow Peril, the 1882 Chinese Exclusion Act, and the 1982 murder of Vincent Chin; the meaning and coherence of “AAPI”; and the often reactionary history of global pan-Asianism. 24:10 - Trump is predictably blaming China for Covid-19 and everything wrong with his administration, and the Republicans have circulated a template for anti-Beijing electioneering. What does this leaked GOP strategy brief (aka the O’Donnell Memo) say? And why have the Democrats, too, gone all in on China bashing? Hint: polling numbers. Also - What really happened in China at the start of the pandemic? Is “wet market” out and “bat laboratory” in? Bonus: how US nationalism produces Chinese patriotism and whether we’re headed for another Cold War.ABOUT USTime to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.A short introduction to your hosts:Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Happy belated May 1st, international workers’ day! This episode is about organizing and health care “heroes.”We talk about cheering for essential workers, Whitmanesque yawps and coyote mewls, and the politics of “shelter in place.” Why are liberals so angry at people who need to get some air? And what’s behind right-wing protests at state capitals? We consider the underlying grievances and explore the possibility of class-based organizing. Our guest, in the second half, is Tre Kwon, an ICU nurse in Manhattan, a shop steward for the New York State Nurses Association, a new mom, and an editor at Left Voice, an international socialist publication. Tre tells us why she gave up half her maternity leave to resume nursing and what she hopes the pandemic will produce in the way of social change. 1:11 - How do we maintain community in a world of social distancing? Tammy describes the nightly ritual of cheering (or playing Korean gongs) for health care workers in New York. Jay recounts his Oakland neighbors’ routine of howling and bongo drums.5:53 - American cities are beginning to hire contact tracers to address Covid-19. Is something resembling the South Korean model possible in the US? Will Americans tolerate it, and can it work with the number of cases continuing to increase? 13:36 - Could contact tracing become a major jobs program? Mulling nationalization and its five government proponents. 21:57 - The debate over whether or not to reopen the economy is dominated by right-wing talking points versus liberal “Nimby” moralism. Why don’t leftists respond more forcefully to the economic disaster felt by the working class and the poor? Jay unleashes a bottled-up rant. Andy contextualizes the language of “freedom.”37:58 - Tre describes the reality of corporate, for-profit medicine and explains why she and her colleagues could foresee the disaster of the pandemic. Also: why we can’t count on Democrats to save us.47:06 - What good are small-scale protests and work stoppages? Tre digs into rage at work, the radicalizing nature of care labor, and why unions, despite their flaws, must be a central pillar of left politics. ABOUT USTime to Say Goodbye is a podcast—with your hosts, Jay Caspian Kang, Tammy Kim, and Andy Liu. We launched this thing because, like you, we’ve been sheltering in place and wanted an outlet for our thoughts on the coronavirus, Asia, geopolitics, and Asian Americans.A short introduction to your hosts:Jay Caspian Kang is a writer-at-large for the New York Times Magazine and the author of the forthcoming book The Loneliest Americans.E. Tammy Kim is a magazine reporter, a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times, and a retired lawyer. She co-edited the book Punk Ethnography.Andrew Liu is a historian of modern China. He wrote a book called Tea War, about the history of capitalism in Asia. He remains a huge Supersonics fan.  This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe