Time To Say Goodbye

Pulitzer Prize winner and Macarthur Genius Grant recipient Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses the Third World Liberation Front and ethnic studies programs, exploring their effectiveness in producing radical thinkers. The conversation also delves into the challenges of defining Asian American identity, the intersection of ethnic studies and leftist politics, and the struggle for representation and decolonization in Hollywood.

In a late-Sunday-night mega-recording session, we discuss the big news of the past week: Kamala Harris, the first major vice presidential candidate who’s Black, Asian American, and a woman. Commentators have tried to pick apart her identity from countless angles: Is she Black enough? Indian enough? Caribbean enough? An Asian-immigrant icon? In other words, the kind of juicy s**t you KNOW your podcast hosts are ALL ABOUT.0:44 – Our promise to improve TTSG’s audio quality is followed by a recording glitch1:20 – Updates on Tammy’s temporary life in Montana, Andy’s teaching by Zoom, and Jay’s love of nonstop road trips9:40 – Who is Kamala Harris?  17:28 – Identity, Act 1: Kamala the politician: Is she a cop? Is she malleable, or does she have a motivating ideology? Also: Jay and Andy award her 30 speaker points for last year’s debates. 26:42 – Identity, Act 2: Is she a second-generation immigrant? Will her familial ties to Jamaica and India (and, briefly, Zambia) matter to West Indian and Asian voters? What can we glean from her strategic and rhetorical uses of immigrantness? 35:30 – “Two or more races”: Why are we so bad at talking about mixed-race identity? Do hapas have privilege because they’re hot?42:05 – Identity, Act 3: Is she Black? Jamelle Bouie wrote last week that, “because of heritage, upbringing and the realities of American racism, Harris calls herself Black and is also understood as Black by people within and outside the Black community.” ADOS adherents disagree. Is Blackness a matter of choice? Is Blackness international or American? 51:45 – Choice and reparative policiesThe Kamala announcement was followed by the DOJ’s accusation that Yale discriminates against white and Asian applicants. Is anti-Asian discrimination like anti-Black discrimination, or is any similarity negated by the apparent fact that Asians “chose” to come to the US? We dissect this concept of choice, which leads us to a theory of Asian identity that’s less about what we have in common than why we’re here in the first place.1:26:10 – Save the mail!!A look at the US Postal Service, which has one of the largest, most racially diverse, unionized workforces in the country. It is also a paragon of the types of universal, social-welfare services we should defend vigorously. We unpack the November election theories and distinguish them from troubling long-term trends toward privatization, racist dog whistles, and exploitation by Amazon. Bonus: Tammy achieves her dream of discussing Bureau of Labor Statistics data and the USPS in one segment. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Tammy gabs with her old friend Radhika Natarajan, a professor of history at Reed College and low-key brilliant TV critic.Radhika talks about her childhood in Ohio, her parents’ emigration from Tamil Nadu (relevant spoiler: an arranged Brahmin marriage), and her scholarly work on post-colonial migration, citizenship, and multiculturalism in Britain. (Bonus: BAME = POC/BIPOC?) She schools Tammy on Portland’s Black and immigrant communities (the city isn’t all white, Radhika softly yells) and describes the local vibe during 74+ days of Black Lives Matter protests. Then, the discussion (takedown? disquisition?) many TTSG listeners have been waiting for: about the Netflix show “Indian Matchmaking”! Tammy and Radhika talk caste, religion, class, and colorism in the series, media representations of South Asians, and Modi’s bloody transnationalism. Radhika invokes the cultural critic Stuart Hall to question the desire for “cheering fictions” over messy depictions of identity, and looks forward to learning more about Dalit–Black American connections in Isabel Wilkerson’s new book on caste.For more, Radhika recommends:* Stephen Frears’s 1985 film, “My Beautiful Laundrette” (per Hall)* Nicholas B. Dirks’s 2001 history, Castes of Mind* Annihilation of Caste, the 1936 book by Dalit revolutionary B.R. Ambedkar (arguing that inter-caste marriages could never solve the problem of caste; take that, Auntie Sima!)And here’s what the TTSG team has been perusing:* Come on, Karen—Indian Food, really? * The political economy of the TikTok and WeChat war * Media savagery at Sports Illustrated* Pankaj Mishra and Adam Shatz talk Anglo-American failure and free speechP.S. – We recorded this episode before the Kamala announcement, but now that she’s every liberal’s favorite Indian… This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from the ledge of cancellation! We have some heady stuff for you this week—on school segregation, the perennial struggle between historians and journalists, and religiosity in Asian America. 0:40 – After a quick update on Tammy’s new life of canoeing in Missoula, Jay describes his roundtrip between Berkeley and Whidbey Island, when he listened to the newest, most Upper West Side podcast ever: “Nice White Parents,” by Chana Joffe-Walt. We discuss the first three episodes of that series—tldr: the road to hell is paved with good intentions—and the broader contours of education, race, and class in the US. Are Asian students missing from the show’s presentation? Can we distinguish “good integration” from “bad integration”? Do individual choices make a difference, or are government policies all that matter? WTF, Rob? Other shows we mention: * The “School Colors” documentary podcast.* An earlier (2015), touchstone series of This American Life, featuring Joffe-Walt and Nikole Hannah-Jones, on school integration in Hartford, Connecticut and Normandy, Missouri.37:04 – Andy shares a NY Mag interview with public intellectual Adam Tooze, which includes hot takes on the role of history vs. journalism. Is the archive-digger the natural enemy of the reporter? In this hellishly unprecedented(?!) moment, are some disciplines especially relevant? What about the political economy of journalism and academia? Included: the 1619 Project, fascism, and ye olde breakfast foods.1:08:34 – Listener Jonathan Tang asks why so many East Asians, especially from the upper middle class, seem to be churched. We apply all kinds of anecdata in the search for truth. (Correction: Tammy references Christian missionaries’ visiting Korea by the early 19th century; she meant the late 19th century.)P.S. – Tammy’s new nightly hike (suckers):Please support us by subscribing and telling friends and family! Also ask a question to timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com or @TTSGPod! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from three time zones! This week, we mull the Covid-era classroom (fears of contagion and falling behind), the meaning of Trump’s attack on TikTok, Nike-brand kneeling (and not kneeling) in the NBA bubble, and universalism and particularism in the Black Lives Matter uprising.1:40 – Will Tammy find an Oriental market in Missoula? How does Andy plan to teach through his screen? What will be the impact of these lost semesters on poor and working-class students? Also, should we blame diversity administrators for the collapsing academy? 17:07 – Why is Trump raging against TikTok? Is it because of Sarah Cooper’s impersonations, the Tulsa BTS Army, or his larger vendetta against China? Are we being tricked into siding with a mega-corporation or military state? Further reading: on US fears of the app, Western and Eastern Internets, Microsoft and tech nationalism against China, and whether TikTok is basically just as bad as Facebook. Bonus: Jay reveals his strategy for making Twitter “unusable” through his war with music writers.35:45 – We discuss Tammy’s recent article probing the tensions within the “POC” label. Are Asians excluded from new euphemisms for ethnic minorities (“Black and brown,” “BIPOC”)? Can we include non-Black perspectives without going “all lives matter”? Could a new political bloc emerge amongst immigrants, especially Latinx and Asian Americans (see recent exchange between Pankaj Mishra and Viet Thanh Nguyen)? Does foundation funding keep domestic and global politics separate? Are we helping the right wing capture the immigrant vote? Bonus: an update on the Portland Wall of Moms. 1:01:10 – Jay advances a Manufacturing Consent thesis: the media’s coverage of BLM has kept public discussion within the boundaries of safe and acceptable topics. This leads to a bro-out over the NBA’s cringey coverage, in which the richest companies in the world have turned “social justice” into a profitable brand. (Also, Jay and Andy are hypocritically watching lots of games.) More generally, should we be optimistic or skeptical about the evolution of progressive politics this summer?1:17:50 – Our listener question of the week! We’ve heard from some of you that our podcast is one of your first experiences with politically-oriented Asian Americans, in part because you were too busy studying orgo in college (like this comrade). Is there a split between “STEM Asian Americans” and “humanities Asian Americans”? We can always be reached via @ttsgpod or timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com. Tell your friends and family to subscribe! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

你好 from cyberspace! This week, Jay scuba dived the depths of Asian American TikTok to engage Andy and Tammy in a critique of gendered home-cooking videos. How far have we really come? We then get a bit more serious, with a discussion of the continuing Black Lives Matter protests in downtown Portland and lessons in coalition-building from the 1970s Combahee River Collective. 4:10 – TikTok CookingJay plays several TikTok videos of young Asian Americans cooking their favorite dishes. The men seem to adopt a “Black” style of talking, while the women take on a more childlike “kawaii かわいい” tone. What does this say about the personae available to Asian Americans? Is there such a thing as “pan-Asian”—or even Korean, etc.—English? Also, a “Waysian” TikTok blows Andy’s mind.  TikTok Highlights: Kimchi Fried RiceInstapot PhoPopeyes ChickenMiyeok Guk 미역국 (K seaweed soup)Filipino with a Texan accentWaysian34:50 – Portland Protests The feds are still rioting in Portland, Oregon, spurring thousands of locals to fill the streets. The novelist Mitchell S. Jackson, a native of the city, recently described his skepticism about white anarchists in these protests. Contrast this with the big-tent perspective of Kent Ford, founder of Portland’s Black Panthers chapter. What makes a protester, or a protest, really about Black Lives Matter?47:40 – Good Identity PoliticsWe’re all big fans of How We Get Free and other writing by and about the Combahee River Collective. How does this model of Black, queer, socialist feminism apply to our present movement moment? Can we forego an “oppression olympics” for more productive solidarity? Can “identity politics” be redeemed? Also, Tammy’s landline rings. Please send us comments, questions, corrections!@ttsgpod + timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.comAnd subscribe! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from 1997! This week, we start by crate-digging our souls, with a discussion of Lilith Fair-era feminist (and feminine?) music. We then ponder the ongoing Black Lives Matter rebellion in Portland, an op-ed on “white fragility” and its race-baiting subconscious by the country’s most lucid Catholic conservative, and what it means to be (or cosplay being) “transnationally Asian.”2:22 – Jay reveals why he’s been tweeting so much about his 1990s playlist. What was Lilith Fair, and is its feely, anti-corporate model of women’s artmaking still relevant? Plus: Nas and Liz Phair and straw(wo)man Beyoncé.11:27 – Unidentified federal cops have been brutalizing protesters in Portland, Oregon. In response, a cadre of “Momtifa” Karens has joined with antifa gutter punks on the streets. Why do certain kinds of protesters get a bad rap? What allyships are needed to keep up the BLM momentum? Bonus: Andy posits a theory of Pacific Northwest anarchism.43:08 – New York Times columnist Ross Douthat recently speculated that, because the old system of so-called meritocracy is collapsing, its guardians are jumping ship and embracing the critique of white privilege. Among his examples are the threat of high SAT scores posed by Asian students(!).Is Douthat right? And are the conditions ripe for a major revolution today? 59:33 – Hot off the press! Tammy’s feature on transnational Asian media, featuring New Naratif (Singapore/Southeast Asia), fellow substackers Chinese Storytellers, and, as featured on TTSG, Lausan (Hong Kong) and New Bloom (Taiwan).The three of us have a group therapy session discussing the differences between our parents’ generation, our own, and these new kids’. Were we raised to think “only losers go back to Asia”? If we tried to return to Asia, would we just be cosplaying? Bonus: Tammy recounts her meeting with Jay’s parents. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Credit: Carolyn DrakeHello from the greater Sea-Tac area!Andy and Tammy here with a bonus episode, interviewing Darren Byler, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Colorado and an expert on the Uyghur people, a Muslim community in the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region in Northwest China. Darren’s years of anthropological research in Xinjiang will be published in a forthcoming book titled Terror Capitalism. Until then, you can find his work at SupChina, Made in China journal, and his own site, “art of life in Chinese Central Asia.” He has also written specially about surveillance technologies in Xinjiang. 5:30 - Is it true that right-wing voices dominate the international conversation about the Uyghurs of Xinjiang? Why isn’t the international left more vocal?9:50 – What is Xinjiang? Who are the Uyghurs? And how has the relationship between Uyghurs and Han (ethnic Chinese) people changed from the 1950s to the present? In recent decades, Xinjiang has become a source for energy resources, the cotton in our clothing, and the tomatoes in our food. We recount the path from “opening up the west” (1990s) to “the people’s war on terror” (2000-10s) to the most recent “reeducation camps.”21:05 – Darren argues that the moralistic paradigm of “cultural difference” and “ethnic genocide” are inadequate. He explains why we need a broader analysis of the social forces producing violence, exploitation, and state repression. Hint: capitalism? Also, how has China appropriated the US’s rhetoric of “war on terror” to racialize the Muslim Uyghurs? Aka “I learned it by watching you, Dad!”Referenced: a new report on Uyghur labor in export-oriented factories in China (Australian Strategic Policy Institute)56:50 – What’s a good leftist to do? Is it okay to back right-wingers who call China morally evil? What are potential avenues for international solidarity (what about the Uyghur diaspora? the Chinese diaspora?)? Also, Darren cites recommended reading on the region and tells us what traps to avoid — and also defends journalists at The New York Times (the ones who wrote this) against Andy’s snobbish dismissal of reportage! Outro: an excerpt from “Uchrashqanda,” by the Uyghur singer and dutar player Abdurehim Heyit, who was imprisoned by the Chinese authorities and has not been heard from since last year.Links:Camp Album project: a multimedia collection by Xinjiang diasporaThe Xinjiang Documentation Project at the University of British ColumbiaFrom the same site, Chinese translations of English publications on XinjiangHistorian David Brophy’s modern account of the region This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Hello from our galaxy brain!    This week, we begin with a brief chat about (social) media “cancel culture,” based on an open letter recently published in Harper’s. We then discuss a workplace controversy at the Boba Guys chain; the suicide of the mayor of Seoul, Park Won-soon, and what his death means in the context of South Korean feminism, per Tammy’s reporting; and a telling exchange about the NBA’s rules of wokeness between Republican US Senator Josh Hawley and ESPN NBA reporter Adrian Wojnarowski.As always, thank you for listening and subscribing. Please spread the word and send feedback via Twitter (@ttsgpod) or email (timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com)! 0:57 – What are the boundaries of “free speech” on the Internet and in the minds of media elites? Who has the power to cancel whom? 7:29 – Why did the owners of Boba Guys go all out on “Black Lives Matter” while mistreating Black and Latinx employees, and what does their conduct reveal about Asian-American food culture? 31:00 – Why have so many high-profile South Korean men escaped accountability for gender-based misconduct and violence? What are the contours of Korea’s #MeToo movement?56:19 – Is it right for the NBA to host games in Orlando during the pandemic? Should we support “Free Woj” or does the other side have a point about league-sanctioned political slogans? Is it good when radical politics become safe enough to adopt by profit-driven corporations? (also Jay tries to remember what the CLS kritik said.)Share and subscribe!  This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe

Greetings from our USB microphones!  In this episode, we discuss ICE’s recent rule prohibiting international students from staying in the U.S. if their colleges go fully online. We also dig into questions of cross-race solidarity in the Black Lives Matter movement, especially regarding Latinx/brown communities. Finally, we answer our first sampling of listener questions. As always, thank you for listening and subscribing. Please spread the word and continue to send feedback via Twitter (@ttsgpod) or email (timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com)! 5:09 – How would the ICE crackdown on international students work? Who is the real target (psst China), and what are the broader economic implications for universities and college towns? (i.e., Whither Stonybrook, NY’s glorious Chinese food?)  28:22 – Jennifer Medina wrote a provocative story in the New York Times on Latinx participation in the BLM movement and questions of fit: “Latinos Back Black Lives Matter Protests. They Want Change for Themselves, Too.” Can a focused movement be inclusive? How do we stand up for one another? Do we need to complicate the Black-white paradigm of race in America?53:39 – We attempt to answer very smart questions about our episode on tankie-ism and alternatives to American and Chinese imperialism, how we should actually address anti-black racism in the Asian diaspora (see our post from a few weeks ago), and what a rewriting of Asian-American history (from Chinese Exclusion to Grace Lee Boggs, Yuri Kochiyama, and Vincent Chin) might entail. Thanks to listeners Carlo, Michelle, Chung-chieh, and Sam for their questions. And apols to everyone whose messages we didn’t get to tackle.Please share and subscribe to support us! This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit goodbye.substack.com/subscribe