Talk About Talk - Communication Skills Training

Body language is a significant element in our communication. Here’s a 3-point body language scan to help you optimize both how you are perceived and how you feel. Perhaps you’re not sure what to do with your hands? Or perhaps you catch yourself slouching and your mind is wandering. Think: “3-Point Body Language Scan!” Suddenly, you’re engaged, credible, and enthusiastic. THANKS for LISTENING.  Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #96 The 3 Point BODY LANGUAGE Scan appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Andrea interviews leadership communication expert Judith Humphrey (part 2). Learn about imposter syndrome, communication differences between men and women, effective self-promotion, the leaders’ script, when we should apologize, and what to do when your boss suggests it’s time to demonstrate leadership. This is part 2 of a two-part feature (ep. 94 & 95) on “Taking the Stage: Communication skills for Leaders.”   RESOURCES    Judith Humphrey WEBSITE: – judithhumphrey.com LinkedIn & Twitter: @judith_humphrey Instagram: judithhumphrey_ Books Speaking as a Leader by Judith Humphrey Impromptu: Leading in the Moment by Judith Humphrey Taking the Stage by Judith Humphrey Chatter by Ethan Kross Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk  Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ TRANSCRIPT (unedited) INTRODUCTION Greetings and welcome to Talk About Talk episode #95, focused on TAKING THE STAGE: COMMUNICATION SKILLS FOR LEADERS. I’m your communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (please call me Andrea!). Are you an ambitious executive with a growth mindset, looking to advance your career? Well, you’re in the right place.   At Talk About Talk, we focus on communication-skills-topics like personal branding, confidence, and networking. This is the critically important stuff they don’t teach you in school. And if you check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website, you’ll find online corporate training, 1-on-1 coaching with me, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, and the free weekly communication-skills newsletter. I really hope you’ll go to the website and sign up for the free weekly communication skills training newsletter. But you can choose what works for you! Welcome to Talk About Talk episode number 95. This is the second of a two-part focus on TAKING THE STAGE: COMMUNICATION SKILLS FOR LEADERS, where I interviewed communication guru Judith Humphrey, founder of The Humphrey Group.  If you haven’t listened to episode 94 yet, I encourage you to listen to that first. But this episode really is to good stuff. You’re going to hear the second part of my conversation with Judith, and then you’re going to hear my summary. I’ll summarize for you new ways to think about things like self-promotion, imposter syndrome, apologizing, and communication differences between men and women.,  Yes, we’re gonna get into stereotypes! Are you ready?  OK. We left off with Judith’s summary of her Leaders’ Script.  Do you remember what it was?  4 dimensions.  The grabber, proofpoint or main message, structure or supporting points, and last, the all-important call to action.   INTERVIEW …really when you think about it, that call to action, is translating your leadership message into activity is something that has consequences. So I found it to be very powerful. People really love it. I encourage my clients when they’re going into meetings to think about what the what the meeting objective is, and then also what their personal objective is. And it’s not that they’re necessarily at odds, but it’s about being mindful about, here’s, here’s kind of the objective that we all share. And then, personally, this is the part that’s really important to me. So I think, actually having that mindset in the back of your mind, and then applying this framework also might might be very effective. And you could, you could, at the very end, when you do a call to action, you could relate it to the meeting objective, for example, but then also make sure that your personal objective is, is accommodated. So it’s also going to be prominent in my next book, which is the job seeker script. Ah, when you think about the job seeking process, it’s a series of events. But another way of looking at it, it’s just a series of scripts, you need a script for your elevator pitch, if you should pass by somebody. Yeah. You need a script for your networking conversations. Yeah. For your resume, for your cover letter for your interview scripts for it for your answers to questions in the interview, and even for your post interview discussion about salary. So the book will cover all those scripts. So are they scripts? Or are they frameworks? Like, are you actually memorizing what you’re saying? Or? That’s a good question? I believe that the more you can write down what you’re going to say the better. Okay, so there are frameworks in the sense that the words come from the job seeker, I don’t provide the words, I provide the framework, the leader script provides a framework and it provides the template, but it forces people to structure what they’re saying. So that they make a point that they really tell their story in a way that’s powerful narrative. And do so at every turn in the job process. Yep. And you know, communication is so important today, more than ever, yeah. Well, I don’t have to tell you that. But I mean, when you think about the digital world, right? And we have so little interpersonal contact, we have to be that much clearer in what we say true, more persuasive, and what we say. And so this leader script will apply to every situation that anybody is in in a business setting. So your next book is going to be focused on job seeking. And that relates to a question that I wanted to ask you about self promotion, and kind of what is it and if you have any do’s and don’ts, and I can imagine, you know, when when we’re applying for a job, and we get that coveted interview opportunity, we need to promote ourselves right way. So can you talk a little bit about that? self promotion has two definitions. One is what I consider to be the way I think about it, and then self promotion can have a sense of Undertow to a lot of people, they don’t they they find it. Find it. Ugly. Yeah. And that’s informative. That’s a good word. I like that they find it ugly. Yeah. But it’s not. I mean, true self promotion, when you think about it, is when you actually speak about yourself in such a way that other people want more of you. They love what you’re saying about yourself. So so the ugly self promotion turns people off. So it’s not truly self promotion, is it? That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, it’s ineffective. But true self promotion, is the process of delivering messages about yourself that move people that inspire in the case of job search, that inspire those who hire, right, inspire those who hire right. It’s another title for a book. But they so what is that? What is that secret recipe that we call true and effective self promotion? Again, I believe it goes back to having the right message about yourself. Yeah, it’s personal branding. Yeah. And then being able to develop that message in such a way it’s credible. So you might say, you’re in a job interview. And as you suggested, what do you say? You might say, your message would be about all the things you’ve done already, you know, I’m a seasoned it expert. That would not be good self promotion, because people are looking to what you can do in their company, right. So your message in In an interview, if you want to be truly self promotional should be what you can do for them. Yes, very confident and empathetic message. Exactly, yeah. And so, obviously, each situation is different. And you have to define your message, your self promotion message in a way that will move your audience. It’s empathetic in that sense, you’re always thinking, what is it that’s going to really move the room or move this person? Or have them believe in me? Yep. And, bad self promotion, it’s self aggrandizing. It has nothing to do with your audience, whereas true self promotion is messaging that reaches your audience and inspires them? Yeah, I was thinking, as you’re saying that it’s about articulating the impact that you will make for them or on them, right. As opposed to, here’s what I can do. Exactly. And if you’re in a meeting, and you want to be self promotional, it doesn’t mean you’re going to talk about yourself necessarily, it means you’re going to bring forward an idea that inspires people to believe in you. That’s what self promotion might not even be about you. It might be an idea that you talk about, it will give purpose to the team, right? It could be a story of something that you did or even that you observed and interpreted and learn from right. actly. Yeah, yeah. So you can take the eye on self promotion. Interesting. Okay. Okay, so, so I’d like to focus, I guess a little bit more on some tactical communication challenges that many of us face. And the first one that I’d love to hear your perspective on is interrupting. And I don’t know, probably like me notice, especially when virtual meetings became the norm, all of a sudden, interrupting was actually impossible, because when someone’s speaking on Zoom, only one voice can be heard. And it’s tough to see people raising their hands or whatever they’re doing. So certainly, interrupting is rude. But sometimes we do need to interject. And so I was just wondering if you could give us a few pointers on how we can interrupt or interject in a way that is not offensive to begin with, I think you have to wait for someone to stop speaking. So interrupting is not a good thing. And there’s always a pause. There’s always the moment, the moment that that person finishes. That’s the perfect time to express your views. So another aspect of speaking well in a meeting is listening. Finding the moment of silence and interjecting your own viewpoint. That is a very good point. And when people think about communication. They think about speaking, they don’t think about listening. And so maybe the next time it’s happens to all of us, we’re in a meeting and someone maybe kind of is taking way too much of the airtime and maybe they’re starting to repeat themselves. And it’s like they’re not coming up for air instead of thinking about it. rejecting focus on listening to what they’re saying, right? And then you’ll come up with the true added value. And you also will be able to hear when they pause. Yes, exactly. That’s right. You’re so busy formulating your ideas and not listening. You won’t even hear the policy. And then you might end up interrupt values a new answer to that question for me, Judith, it is I think it’s good. Yeah. Yeah. So my next question for you, is a little bit different. So, so changing topics here, as, as Canadians, and as women, I’m sure you’ve heard the stereotypes, we are often way too apologetic. So and I know that you’ve done training of men and and of women and mixed groups and in in Canada, in the US, and actually all over the world. So do you have any tips on us over coming this apology syndrome that we have, that some of us have Andry? I could talk for hours about that? I bet. It’s just giving voice to the inner crow. Apologizing is essentially saying, I don’t belong on stage. I don’t really have a right to speak, but I’m going to anyway. Excuse me. Wow. And there’s absolutely no reason for it. And of course, it diminishes the impact that you’re going to have because apologizing thing I’m sorry. But I’d like to add something. These are all diminishing expressions. I’m sorry. It’s got to go the whole expression. I’m sorry. should go? Because try to think of it time when you really need to say I’m sorry. Yeah. You don’t need to attack it’s I can’t even think of a time when can you think of a time manager when you might say I’m sorry. So your your example of being late. I was just thinking in my head. I have this saying that I came up with which is jargon is like profanity. We need to be aware of it. And we need to save it for when we need it. And I’m thinking I might add apologies to that list. Yeah. We need to be conscious of apologies in our language and in our communication, and save it for when we really need it. So yeah, if I was on a subway, and it got stopped, and there was a roomful of people waiting for me. And I walked in, I think starting with an apology and saying, I apologize that I’m 15 minutes late. Let’s get on with this and making a strong statement about like your everybody’s time is important, and that you want to be productive. And then getting into it. I think that’s an example of when maybe an apology is is fine. But I hear for example, particularly women, and particularly Canadians, in a meeting will say, I’m sorry, can I say something? Oh, yeah. Well, if you can’t, then why are you here? I agree with you on that one instance of apologizing. Yeah, if you’ve held people up, yeah. You have responsibility to say something like that. I agree. That’s true respect for your audience. But the other thing shows disrespect for yourself. Right? Very, very well put, you will be quoted on that, Judith, I promise you. So related to this questioning about about men versus women communicating in your book, taking the stage, you highlight how some successful women talk about how hard they work in perhaps too much. And you talk about Hillary Clinton, and Sarah Jessica Parker and Marissa Mayer. And it reminded me of some academic research that I actually I was at in a leadership conference hosted by Harvard Business School for leaders leadership skills for women. And one of the faculty members there was talking about some research that she’d conducted recently with a whole bunch of academics. And they interviewed successful women and one of the Common themes that came out of these successful women was how they all shared this narrative of how hard they worked. And I was wondering if you have any comments about this, like, do you think it’s helping us to talk about how hard we work? Or is it related to imposter syndrome and that CRO, like are really badly is, is probably related to the fact that we want to prove ourselves. And so we constantly refer to the amount of work we’ve produced. But work doesn’t win us any points. In fact, it wins us more work. So losses will pile work on women, because we are able to finish it, and do it and not complain about it. And whereas men delegate much more. And that’s a vast generalization, it doesn’t apply to every man or every woman, of course. But it’s really true, I saw that in my business life, that the women would be happy to take on work. Because it kept them busy, and show to the world that they were valued. But the men felt their value came from delegating. Interesting. So the fact that we brand ourselves as workers is not going to ever get us into any large career position, because the higher up you go, the less actual work you do. And the more conversation you have, the more communication you’re doing, the more meetings you have, but you don’t do the work. So that that reminds me of another question that that I would love to get your perspective on. See if you agree, so I’ve had this conversation with a couple of my clients about how earlier in your career, learning the technical expertise, the processes, depending on the industry that you’re working in, of course, those are the skills that are probably at the top of the hierarchy are prioritized in terms of what you need to learn. As you mature, your tenure increases, and you become more senior in any organization, your communication skills themselves may become more important. Do you agree? Yes, you do? Well, I think the higher up you go in an organization, the more you need to communicate. Because you have teams and groups of people that report to you directly you have colleagues across the organization you have to relate to, you have bosses. And if you’re a VP, for example, and you’re reporting to a C level executive, you’d better know how to communicate with that person. And it’s an art, you know, when you’re when you’re a junior person in an organization communicating means you let people know what you’re going to do. You do it and you show that you did it. Yeah, that’s true. It’s, it’s about performance of tasks. Yep. But as you get higher up, communicating is about listening, doing much more listening, asking questions, yeah. Walking around walking the room, where people work, asking them about their work. So it’s really checking in with people. It’s letting people speak listening to them responding to them. Somebody asked me recently. This is a person who is in his early 30s. He’s got a big job already. But he said, you’ve worked with a lot of senior executives over your career. What advice would you give me about changing my communication style? And I go up the ladder? It’s a great question. Yeah, it was really great question shows you he’ll go places. Yeah. Sometimes the question really reveals everything. Right, exactly. So I thought about it. And I said, the thing that will change, if you’re effective, is you’ll want to speak less and listen more as you go up the ladder. And so that’s what I would advise to anyone listening to this podcast, I should go higher and higher. Draw and other people listen to them, ask them questions, because your success is going to depend upon them. Right. So that’s a whole communication strategy for upper level. Absolutely. So in a couple of the podcasts that I’ve done, focused on listening skills, I encourage people to track the ratio to literally or consciously think about, How much am I talking versus other people. And then I say true leaders will do that not only of themselves versus everybody else in the room, but they’ll also track the ratio of other people at the table and encourage people who haven’t spoken up to speak up, But it’s true that, for example, in job interviews, if you talk less than the interviewer, you’re more likely to get the job. I talked about that a lot. That’s true. Yeah. I’m talking to you and I have the same thought bubble over. That’s funny. That’s funny. Okay. So I want to go back to, I guess the differences between men versus women when they’re communicating. And I’m curious, in your experience, what do you think the most common mistake is that women may make? And then also that men may make when they’re communicating? But women diminish themselves in so many ways? And of course, best generalization? Yeah. But this is the reason we in the Humphrey group launched the program called taking the stage. They had global reach just incredible number of women. Over half a million women took this program. But it shows you that there’s something about the way women communicate, it’s different from the way men communicate. And when I first realized this, I was sitting with a client in a coaching session. And what she was doing was wrapping herself into a small ball. Oh, so her arms were closed. Her legs were crossed. Her head was down her shoulders were a little bit hunched. And she was speaking in a meek voice. I said, this is not something I saw among the men. Yeah, Coach. So making ourselves small is the way I put it. Yeah, shall small in terms of body language, in terms of our voice, our voice, we raise the voice? Or speech? So we’re asking your question? Yeah. At the end of the sentence, yeah. So we diminish our voices, instead of grounding our voices. We make furtive eye contact. We smile too much. We speak with caveats. You know, I could be wrong. Sorry. Only it’s only a thought. So we diminish ourselves, make ourselves small in so many ways. And so I would say, in terms of body language, voice, language, expression, women need to be bigger, have a bigger onstage presence. So would you say that the that men maybe need to dial it back the other way, as you were describing this woman physically sitting across the table from you, I was thinking it’s the opposite of the man spread, right? Like the guy that separates his legs and leans in, and he’s taking up as much space as he physically can. And that’s really an interesting topic in itself. Yeah. Because not all men do that. Yeah, of course, not all women make themselves small. So these are generalizations. But if you were to find a parallel or look for a parallel between what women do what men do, or antithetical, look at them. The men traditionally, and I think that’s changing. I think it really is changing that men are different than they were 10 years ago, 15 years ago as leaders, but in a good way, in a good way. Yes. Yeah. I would never assume that men have one style, and women have another style, because things have changed. They’re much stronger women, and more understanding men, collaborative men, I’ve been really impressed with the transformation on both fronts. So I, I think that men, the men, I know, the men I’ve worked with, are really doing their greatest, to be more inclusive, more collaborative. But what I like about the way men speak, is they show a level of confidence. And I think women need to show men show strength in their thinking, they’re not afraid to bring their thinking forward. They’re confident enough not to use a lot of filler words or caveats. And they assume that people are going to listen to them. And that people are going to act on what they say. So I like that style a lot. And I know in the past, there’s been an exaggeration of men speaking out maybe too boldly, too loud, too big. But I don’t see that as much. And I see men being almost well, I shouldn’t say this. almost a mile. I mean, yeah. So it sounds as if what you’re describing is what we covered a few minutes ago, in terms of it’s the ideal self promotion. Yeah. But I really love your point about their default mindset is that people are gonna listen to Yes, exactly. It’s a very powerful mindset to have. It is a very powerful mindset. Men assume that they’re going to be heard, and that their leadership messages are going to be understood, and perhaps even followed.  So, before so before Judith, we get to the five rapid fire questions, I just want to finish off with one question that I’m really curious to hear your perspective on. And that is that when I first started doing when I first started talking about talk, I was very emphatic that the number one communication superpower is listening. And since then, over the last several years, I’ve modified that to be that there may be three, there may be three communication, superpowers, listening, confidence, and storytelling. I’m wondering what you think about that. I think that they’re all truly important. Listening is the beginning of everything else. So you can’t speak well, unless you listen well. And I think that should come first, as you stated. Storytelling is the means of getting your ideas across. It’s, it’s increasingly important. And in fact, I’m listening to a masterclass on storytelling, really good. Confidence comes from another place, so we can listen. Because we know it’s good to listen. We can tell stories, if we learn how to structure scripts. But confidence comes from a deeper place. And I always say it’s the, it’s the reason we speak up at all. I mean, it’s on a different plane, from listening and storytelling, interesting. It’s not a technique. It’s a state of being hmm. And it’s so important. We’ve talked about it today in this interview, Andrea, but confidence is something you have to delve deeply into your soul to get. And even some people are born with it and Bournemouth greater amounts of it. Other people have to go through their life, building their confidence in the ways we’ve talked about, you know, speaking up when they’re afraid. And it’s not just a female thing, that confidence, I once had a client was a VP. And he said, every time he raised his hand to speak in a meeting with their other executives, he got really scared. But he did it. He told his story. He listened and everything worked out. So you see what I mean about confidence on a different plane? Yeah, that’s a very interesting point. I agree. And again, you’re going to be quoted on that. That is, you’re making me think about things in well, you and I share so much in terms of our passion and our expertise and our innate focus on this topic of communication. I really enjoy talking to you about the stuff I have to say. And now we’re going to move to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? I’ve so much enjoyed this session. I hope the rapid fire doesn’t. It will test you but just say the first thing that comes to mind. Okay, question number one. What are your pet peeves? I don’t really have any really nothing that honors me. Except listening to people diminish themselves. That would be the only thing from the communications point of view when people undercut themselves. And I just published an article pass company on caveat. caveat. It comes from the word beware. Yeah. So you’re warning your audience not to take you seriously. That upsets me when people do that? Because it doesn’t look good. So even your pet peeve is focused on communication. I love it. Yeah, I don’t really have anything else. I’ll think things. No, no, that’s okay. Okay. Second question. What type of learner are you? That’s something I’ve never discovered I probably learned from all this. I think I you tell me you know more about this than I do? Well, to be honest, most of us are all of them, but some people. So I do find that I am all of them. I mean, I’m a podcaster obviously, I’m an auditory learner. I listened to a lot of podcasts. But I’m really, if I had to choose one, probably a little bit off the charts in terms of visual. I’m often grabbing a sheet of paper and I’m drawing I’m illustrating a concept. Yeah, yeah. Question number three. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? I’m both. I mean, I mean, right in the middle of the two I have been tested for this. As an extrovert. I really enjoy talking to people and getting ideas people. But as an introvert, I enjoy a quiet mind. So I noticed my husband loves to listen to podcasts, and he’s always reading the newspaper and always absorbing information. I actually don’t like to do that, to my mind. I like to keep it open. So if I’m walking, I don’t want to hear anything. If I’m walking, I want to think. Okay, next question. Communication or media preference for personal conversations. I always say phone is the best for me phone because at least is a real voice. Yeah. I use instant messaging more than I ever did. But it’s, it’s immediate. That’s one of the great things about it. But it’s not human. It’s not personal. It’s not personal. There’s no tone, there’s no expression. Just emojis. Okay, the last Rapid Fire question is, is there a podcast or a blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending to people the most lately? Well, of course, I’ll recommend this one. Your podcast, particularly this episode, oh, no, all the episodes I know. I want to hear all the episodes. But I’ve been listening to the masterclass series. I’m a member of the master class. Right now. There’s a two for one special. It’s amazing. Yeah, you get to see these fabulous people. Ringo Starr, for example, teaching drumming. And I’m listening to one, an author who teaches at Bard College, talk about storytelling, the art of storytelling, right? These are so fascinating, not only because these people have such a storehouse of wisdom to deliver, but they speak so well. And their body language and their just their whole speaking style is wonderful. And you learn from it. So you’re you’re learning from the content that they’re delivering, but you’re also observing their communication. So it’s kind of like a meta mask leads for you. Wow, that’s a great recommendation. Is there anything else you want to add Judith about communication skills for leaders? Well, I think you do a great job with these questions and podcasts. And you’re hitting all the all the right notes in terms of what we’ve talked about today. There’s nothing more I mean, we could spend another few hours if you want. I agree. I agree. We’ll do that after our talk here. It’s been so enjoyable. Thank you so much. Thank you for bringing me on. Thank you for your time and for sharing your expertise. It’s fantastic. Thank you so much!   THANKS for LISTENING.  Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #95 TAKING THE STAGE part 2 – Communication Skills for LEADERS with Judith Humphrey appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Andrea interviews leadership communication expert Judith Humphrey. Learn about imposter syndrome, communication differences between men and women, effective self-promotion, the leaders’ script, when we should apologize, and what to do when your boss suggests you need to demonstrate leadership. This is part 1 of a two-part feature (ep. 94 & 95) on “Taking the Stage: Communication Skills for Leaders.” RESOURCES  Judith Humphrey WEBSITE: – judithhumphrey.com LinkedIn & Twitter: @judith_humphrey Instagram: judithhumphrey_ Books Speaking as a Leader by Judith Humphrey Impromptu: Leading in the Moment by Judith Humphrey Taking the Stage by Judith Humphrey Chatter by Ethan Kross     Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk  Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   TRANSCRIPT   INTRODUCTION Greetings and welcome to Talk About Talk. I’m your communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (please call me Andrea!). Today we’re focusing on “Taking the stage: communication skills for leaders.” Taking the stage is the name of one of the books written by our guest for this episode, communications skills guru Judith Humphrey. I met Judith over a year ago on LinkedIn. Yes, I practice what I preach. I was networking on social media. Imagine! Given our common focus on communication skills, our paths crossed many times on LinkedIn. We started chatting. Then we realized that we live less than a kilometre away from each other in Toronto, Canada. She took the time to hand deliver a few of her books to my house! I devoured them. Then – I emailed her and invited her out for lunch. Judith was so generous with her insights and advice, that I asked her if I could interview her for this TalkAboutTalk podcast. And – here we are! I have to warn you, this episode is dense. My conversation with Judith was so full of learning – that I decided to split it into two episodes. This is good news – You’re going to learn a lot – I promise! You’re going to learn Judith’s metaphor for the impostor Here’s a hint. It’s a little character that sits on your shoulder. You’re also going to learn a simple script for You’re going to learn about the positive and the negative side of self-promotion. You’re going to learn how we should think about When to apologize and when not to apologize. You’re gonna learn some of the differences, yes, the stereotypes, regarding how men communicate versus how women And a whole lot more. So much more, in fact. that I decided to split this conversation, this interview into two episodes, as I said. Here’s how it’s going to work. I’m going to introduce Judith to you now. And then you’ll hear the first half of the interview. Then the next episode, episode number 95, will include the second half of our conversation, followed by my summary. As always, you don’t need to take notes. Because I do that for you. If you go to talkabouttalk.com, click on podcasts and then shownotes, you’ll see everything right there. A beautiful, concise summary. Links to all the references – books, articles, social media handles, and so on. And then also the full transcript of our conversation. While you’re checking out talkabouttalk.com, I encourage you to subscribe to the free communication skills newsletter. It’s free, and it’s like getting free communication skills coaching from me in your  inbox  once  a  week.  You  can sign up quickly and easily on the TalkAboutTalk.com website, where you’ll also find the shownotes and the archive of past episodes. So as I always say, just keep doing whatever you’re doing. Making dinner. Walking the dog. Or just lying on the couch. You don’t have to lift a finger to take notes because I do that for you. Alright, let me introduce Judith Humphrey. Judith is a communications expert and Founder of The Humphrey Group, a pioneer in the field of leadership communications. She established The Humphrey Group in 1988 and today the firm works with clients globally, with offices in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, and Mexico City. The Humphrey Group has a broad range of programs for leaders, including Taking the Stage® the firm’s landmark program for women, which has been offered to over half a billion women around the world, in five languages and on all continents. Judith is the author of three books: Speaking as a Leader: How to Lead Every Time You Speak; Taking the Stage: How Women Can Speak Up, Stand Out, and Succeed; and Impromptu: Leading in the Moment. You can find these books in the shownotes for this episode. Judith is also a keynote speaker and a regular columnist for Fast Company, with over 100 published articles to her name. She’s now writing her fourth book.   INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT (unedited) Thank you so much, Judith, for joining us here today to talk about how leaders communicate. Oh, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me. So I’d love to get started with the mindset that we show up with when we’re taking the stage. And when I say taking the stage, I mean, when we’re showing up probably for a really important communication context, whether it’s giving a speech or leading a big meeting or doing a presentation to investors. I’m curious about confidence, specifically, and whether you had imposter syndrome. I didn’t realize it at the time. But my whole life, I’ve really grappled with the notion that I have a right to speak up, I have a right to be heard. And I remember when I was actually very young, I was in church. And an older gentleman said to me, so how are you? And I started to reply, and he looked away. And I thought, there’s something here that I need to fix. Hmm. And so my whole life I’ve been speaking up. And speaking in watching people as they observe me and hear me, it’s very, very important to me to feel that I have a voice in any discussion. And I’ve expressed my voice in various ways throughout my life. As a violinist, I chose to play the violin, and played on many stages. When I was young. I went into English and communications and became a speech writer. In my early days of career, I was actually an instructor also in university, taught communications, and ultimately created a company that was designed to teach leaders how to communicate. So it sounds like you were from the get go from a very young age, you were intrinsically motivated to ensure that you personally, were being heard through these various media, right? Whether it’s a musical instrument or your voice or your career impact, but then in your career, you, you evolve to actually encouraging other people to do the same thing? Yes, because I knew how important it was to me. And so when I became a speechwriter, I thought this is such  a  powerful  way  of  expressing  myself through those speeches, but having those executives express themselves. And I really got tremendous joy of being a speechwriter. I didn’t care whether I was giving a speech. I just knew that my words were being expressed publicly. And it was very exciting to create those words that would be heard by larger audiences. Wow. I keep thinking when you describe that I keep thinking of the word amplify. Yes, yeah. Yes. When you write something on the page, it just stays there on the page until you have somebody express it. And then when, when is the CEO and I was writing for all CEOs, several banks. They would be speaking to large groups of employees or the public or clients. Some speech writers have told me they don’t like to go to hear their speaker deliver their speeches. Oh, but I enjoyed it. I’ve provided input and coaching to people that are giving speeches. But I’ve never actually written an entire speech. So that I guess I got to put that on my to do list. I read in one of your books that your college boyfriends, called you a modern woman. And I put that in quotes. Does that mean that you were always confident back to the imposter syndrome thing? Sure. I had a little voice inside my head, as we all would say, don’t speak up. You’re not as good as the other people in the room. I mean, for example, when I was in college, first year university, I was in a university where there are a lot of prep school grads, the women it was a women’s college. And a lot of the women had gone to private schools, like going to public school. So they were very assured. And they would raise their hand and arrange their cigarette. Clock and literally, it feels so confident doing that. I wasn’t I didn’t have that confidence. So when I did, I made a resolve that I would speak up once in every class and I did And at first, it was difficult, but it got easier and easier. And I think that’s the the message I would leave about this. The more you speak up, the more confident you’ll become. I agree 100%, in one of my previous podcast episodes, focused on confidence, I share the story about me having an epic failure at a national sales meeting that I gave a speech at when I was probably 25, maybe 26. It was horrific. And from that moment on, I made a promise to myself that that would never happen again. And I would seek opportunities to do public speaking so that I would accumulate experience and overcome it. And I would say that it does work. So I agree 100%. And that preparation is so important. I mean, when I talk about the imposter syndrome, in my book, taking the stage, and I don’t actually refer to it as the imposter syndrome, I refer to it as the inner crow cackling away, telling us we’re not good enough to speak up to be hard to be listened to. And so, when I talk about that syndrome, I say there are a number of things you can do to counteract it. First, recognize that it’s not you, you know, that voice inside you saying sit down or don’t speak up is your socialization? Yeah, it’s something we’ve been taught to believe about ourselves, but we don’t have to believe it. And we need to acknowledge it as something different. It’s something that’s not really us. And it doesn’t reflect our capabilities. That’s the first thing. The second thing, when that voice inside you that you can call the imposter voice. You need to talk back to it, see it for what it is, and say, No, I’m not going to listen to that voice. It’s not me. It’s not real. It’s nothing I need to carry with me through life. And the third thing to pick up on your point, you need to prepare, you need to put time into preparing, whenever you do, whether it’s offering a point of view in a meeting, if you can prepare that the night before, think about the fact that you want to raise that point. It’s it’s great to prepare it, write it down, jot it down in bullet points, and learn it, rehearse it out loud. Or if it’s a speech do the same. So you’re prepared so that when you walk up to the podium, let’s say it’s informal speech, you can say I am ready. I am good. This is going to be great. And you leave that imposter syndrome behind. Oh, that is beautiful. I love all of that advice. I love your metaphor, I guess of the inner crow. I can see this black crow sitting on my shoulder and I’m swatting it away. Right like it, it makes it something as to use the term you’re labeling it and and rejecting it as another. Yeah, it’s an other. It’s not you. It’s that black crow on your shoulder. We hear it. But it’s outside us. I love. It reminds me also, I recently read a fantastic book. I don’t know if you read it. It’s called Chatter by Ethan Kross. And it’s about our inner dialogue or monologue. And it’s about our inner talk our self, it’s about our self talk. And he recommends that we actually talk to ourselves in third person actually based on research. So if you said, Judith, push that inner crow away, then it’s almost like you’re taking, you know, a Mind’s Eye View or it’s almost like you’re coaching yourself or someone else is coaching you. So saying it in third person and I. So I think we could combine those two, right? And say, Great, Judith, that’s the crow. Push the crow out of your mind or push the crow off your shoulder. Yeah, that’s a great suggestion. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think there’s some power in that. So we spoke a little bit about taking opportunities to present yourself whether it’s giving a speech, and I shared my experience, after my epic fail of trying to do that. In your book, you talk about seizing opportunities to shine, and showing up. Can you talk about what some of these opportunities may be? I mean, there’s there’s the obvious ones, right? There’s giving the speech at the national sales meeting, but when else might we seize the opportunity to shine. Any opportunity where you’re in front of an audience is an opportunity to shine. So it could be the sales conference. It could be taking on a special project, a high profile project, volunteering for that, not waiting for someone to come to you and say would you do this. Speaking up at meetings, I think meetings always are the most constant item in our business lives. And speaking up at a meeting, as I mentioned, I did in classes and I graduate, forcing myself to speak up at least once. In every class, the same thing could be true. Speak up at least once in every meeting. And know that you’re going to do that before you go into the meeting and think about what you might say. Speaking up, in conversations, even casual conversations where the discussion is, when you feel you can make a contribution to speaking to your boss, if you feel your job, for example, needs to be redefined in some way or you feel you’re ready for another job. A higher level jobs, speak up, go to your boss, prepare to make your case. Every day is full of opportunities. I actually interviewed people for my last book, impromptu, and I asked about 20 executives, how many times a day, would you have an opportunity to speak up  impromptu?  And  they  said, anywhere between 19 and 25. Even at the end of a zoom call, you can say do you have a moment? If you want to speak to somebody about a particular topic? That’s a great suggestion. Yeah. So you don’t need to let other people define your agenda. Say Do you have a moment, if it’s your boss, or colleague, or someone you want to work with? introduced that idea that there’s something more that you have to offer? The day is full of opportunity. It is. So that relates to the next question I wanted to ask you, which is about demonstrating leadership potential. And you talked about maybe proactively suggesting to your manager or to your boss about how your job might be redefined. Or maybe suggesting that you’re ready for the next step. Yeah. And I know from talking to my clients that many of them say that their boss has given them the feedback that they need to demonstrate leadership potential. Do you have any advice about how people can do that? Well, first of all, if my boss said, I need to develop leadership, or demonstrate leadership potential, I might ask myself, Is this someone who just wants to keep me in my present job? Because there are a lot of reasons why our bosses don’t want us to leave. If we’re doing a great job. And we go to our boss and ask for a promotion or a new assignment. The  boss  might  well  say,  where  you  first have to develop leadership potential, meaning, I’m not interested in elevating you. So we have to find out whether that’s a genuine comment, or whether it’s describing your boss’s reluctance to move you. Yeah, that that is fantastic advice. That’s not what I was expecting you to say. But I think that’s really true. If you really soul search for what the reason is that they would say that to you. Is it because you genuinely haven’t demonstrated that potential? Or is it because there’s an expectation within the organization that there’s a two year tenure before anyone can get promoted? You know, and so I think clarifying that, So if a boss genuinely says to you, I’d like you to demonstrate leadership potential first. You say? So what leadership opportunity you’re going to give me. I’d like an opportunity to shine in a leadership role. I like to lead a project. Yep. I’d like to lead. Lead a team, I’d like to be able to demonstrate my leadership potential by actually being given a new assignment. Yeah. Yeah. So increasing my responsibility in some way.  It  could  be  a  team  and  I have a list of suggestions. You could lead a team, you could lead an initiative, a project, a new product launch, you could you could even lead meetings, right, you could lead status meetings on a weekly basis or something like that. So Yeah. I think also you, you demonstrate leadership potential by doing a great job with every project you have, by making sure that everything is delivered on time, on budget, according to the terms of that project. So you become a very reliable person within that organization. Yeah. And you also shows very strong communication skills that’s really important for leadership, and communication skills that not only are directly to your boss, but to everybody, all your colleagues on the team. But it’s a beautiful segue to the leaders script, which you talked about in your book, can you share with the listeners, what what is the leader script, at the heart of all of my training, and my three books, speaking as a leader, taking the stage and impromptu, at the heart of all of my intellectual property, is this template called the leader script. And it actually goes back to my university days when I was teaching students how to write. And as you all know, when you learn how to write an essay, you learn to have a thesis, and then develop that thesis. But that doesn’t seem to be known in the business world. People write whether it’s a speech or a presentation or an off the cuff remark. There seems to be no clear structure, no purpose, no message, no point. How many times do we listen to people speaking? We’re saying, what is the point? Yeah, get to the point, please. So my training is based on the leader script, and the leader script is a template for designing whatever you’re saying, whether it’s impromptu or whether it’s a presentation, or whether it’s a speech, designing it around a message. And there are actually four dimensions of the leader script. The starting point is a grabber you always want to start with a bridge to your audience, grab your audience’s attention show that you’ve heard them show, you’ve heard the question. So there’s the grabber, then you come to your point. And your point is framed. So the  people  understand  that’s  your  idea.  That’s what you want to get across. Here’s my message, you could say, or my point is, also you’re very sorry, interrupt. You’re very explicit about this is my point. Because otherwise people just hear it as one other sentence in the larger document. Yep. So my messages are, my view is my point is, or here’s what I feel, or here’s what I think. Here’s what I believe is even stronger. Yep. One sentence. We should move ahead with this project. That would be a message or I need a leadership. Opportunity. If I’m going to prove that I have leadership potential that’s a message right so many stages crisp, short into the point. And then the next part of the leader script is persuasion. It’s taking that message and saying how can I best develop it. And there are various ways to develop a message. One way would be giving reasons. So, three or four reasons why you believe you’d like an opportunity to prove your leadership potential are ways ways that your boss might deliver on that request. So you, the boss might give you a team to oversee might give you a project to bring home might give you a high profile event to host. So there are many ways but those are ways so you can develop that message was ways you can develop other messages chronologically. So over time, so if your message has something to do with something happening over time, so if somebody says, let’s say you’re in a job interview, and somebody says to how do you see your career evolving over the next 10 years, if you’re hired, then you say, Well, to begin with, and then and then by the third year, and then by the 10th? Year, right? So it’s quite a logical development. So those are some of the patterns of organization, you can also use, there’s a final pattern that I think is very important, and that is situation response. If someone said to you tell us how you solve the problem, a typical interview question, say, what the problem I saw was this, and then you describe the problem, right? And when you finish that, then you say, and here’s the solution I brought about our I and my team brought up around them out. So that situation response or problem solution. So those are all patterns of organization that can develop your  message.  So  so  far,  we  have  the  grabber the message. And then when I call the structure or the proof points, yeah, the final part of the leaders script is a call to action, call to action is something all great speakers use to end their speeches, John F. Kennedy said, Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country that was part of his call to action in his inaugural speech. But when you’re in a meeting, your call to action might be, let’s say the meeting with  your  boss  in  which  you’ve asked for a leadership opportunity, you can say, so will you be willing to give me a leadership opportunity, or so I look forward to a new leadership opportunity? What do you think the best  approaches,  so  you  want  to  really close on a high end, even if you’re a job interview, you don’t want to end with ambiguity, you want to end by saying, I look forward to the prospect of being hired by your company, it would be great to be in this role. And so that would be a call to action because you’re describing  the  action  you  want  to  happen next. So that’s the leader script for parts, grabber. Message, proof points, or structure and call to action. I love it. It sounds a little bit like an outline for an essay that we would have learned in English class, and you’re nodding your head. It absolutely is. But you’re right. It is uncommon. And I love how explicit it is right? You have the grabber. And then you declare your main message or your main point, right? And then you support it. And then you ask for what you want or what you need, right? You close it out with the action. I’m going to leave that outline in the shownotes for the listeners, because I always say to them, you don’t need to take notes when you’re listening to the podcast, because everything’s there for you. I’m also going to leave links to the books so they can read more about that in detail. It’s fantastic. I love mostly how explicit it is very explicit. Yeah. And it’s scalable to right. So if you think about it, it can be stretched out for a full speech, right? Or it can be compressed for short, impromptu comment, right? In a meeting, right? You know, but when you hear people that are worthy of being listened to, what do they have, they have the those components, they grab our attention. They make a point, they prove their point. They ask for action. And really when you think about it, that call to action, is translating your leadership message into activity is something that has consequences. So I found it to be very powerful. People really love it. THANKS for LISTENING.  Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #94 TAKING THE STAGE – Communication Skills for LEADERS with Judith Humphrey – part 1 appeared first on Talk About Talk.

THREE is a powerful number that we can use to improve our communication. 3 makes things easier to understand and easier to recall.  3 is balanced and substantive, but not overwhelming. Consider the power of 3 in your communication, whether you’re categorizing, listing, highlighting, influencing, ranking or creating a framework. Make 3 your default. RESOURCES   References THINK AGAIN by Adam Grant TALK LIKE TED by Carmine Gallo NYTimes “1, 2, 3” Schoolhouse Rock “3 is a magic number”:  Threes in the Bible   Prime numbers Fermat prime: Fn = 2n + 1, where n=1, then F1 = 21 + 1 = 3  Mersenne prime: Mn = 2n – 1, where n=2, then 22 – 1 = 3   Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk  Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ THANKS for LISTENING.  Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #93 The Power of THREE appeared first on Talk About Talk.

NETWORKS: We all want a strong network, but most of us hate networking. Jamie Millar of SkyBridge shares tips for building a strong network, options for how to curate your LinkedIn connections, and why we should distinguish between networks and networking. RESOURCES   James Millar LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-millar-3033/ SkyBridge & Associates – https://skybridge.associates/ Newsletter Recommendations: Seth Godin – https://seths.blog/ Scott Galloway – https://www.profgalloway.com/ Ryan Craig – https://gapletter.com/ Networking Episodes with Sharon Mah-Gin #45: NETWORKING – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/45-networking/ #67: ONLINE NETWORKING – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/67-online-networking-with-sharon-mah-gin/ Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk  Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT Transcribed by https://otter.ai Jamie, thank you so much for joining us here today to talk about the power of networks. Well, it’s great to be here and I appreciate the invitation. Let’s kick this off by starting with some vocabulary. I would love it if you’d start by sharing with the listeners, your take on the difference between networking, and networks. Sure what I think this is a common misunderstanding. And I think that a lot of people confuse the noun and the verb, right? So the noun, network is very different from the verb networking. And I think, you know, if you think about networking, it’s it’s in many ways what we all hate. Right? There’s an element of superficiality is sort of transactional. There’s a whiff of desperation, oftentimes associated with networking, and you sort of want something from somebody, right? It’s a very pleasant experience. Nobody likes to do it. No one likes to be networked. That’s entirely different from the noun, a network. And I think everybody, certainly anyone had any amount of professional success would agree that a strong network is in many ways critical to their success. And so we all want a need a strong network, nobody wants to network, right? No one wants the verb everyone wants to noun. And really, I focus primarily in the work I do on the noun. So you said, we don’t like to be networked. And it feels very transactional. But can you elaborate a little bit more on? Why do we hate networking? I guess it comes back to no one wants to be sold, right? You know, it’s like everyone wants to buy something no one wants to be sold. And I think there’s an element with a lot of networking of, I’m going to interact with you because I want something from you, I want you to buy something from me, whether it’s financial transaction or some other kind of transaction, which I just think for a lot of people kind of puts their guard up, I think people miss trust it really a strong network is based on a foundation of trust. And in many ways, networking is the opposite. You know, what it’s saying is, you know, frankly, we’re gonna get married on the first date. I don’t know you at all. And yet, I want something from you, whether it’s your business card, or your phone number, let’s get lunch. And there’s sort of this air, like I said, of, you know, authenticity and kind of a transactional spirit that I think just most people find doesn’t really resonate. And and so I think that’s really the problem with networking and and how many people really want to go to a networking event, what people want is the end result of that. I think everybody wants a good network. And people, for variety reasons think that networking is the only way to develop a strong network. I’m not persuaded that’s true. Right? At least not interested in networking. Yeah. Okay. So it’s not like networking is the antecedent to the output, or the result of having a big or a strong network, which actually relates to another question I wanted to ask. But I want to share this quote that I heard of yours, where you said, there’s a power of peer networks to serve as both a source of community as well as a distinctive way to engage with key stakeholders. Yeah, so is this community and this access, really the two main benefits of a network? I think so this is not just a professional community in any community, right? This is the communities we live in. These are alumni communities we might belong to this is any community that we might belong to, I think it provides a sense of certainly trust, right, there’s a foundation of trust. And embedded in that I think there’s a sense of reciprocity, there’s information sharing, there’s a degree of sort of collaboration. You know, I think, ultimately, if you think of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, where you’re after our safety and security needs are met, the next level is a sense of belonging, right, a sense of community. And I think that a good community can really provide that sense of belonging, it’s both a sense of belonging to a group of people with whom you feel some kinship, some sense of being kindred spirits. And that can be people who are peers of yours. These can also, by the way, be clients of yours, or suppliers of yours, right people in your professional ecosystem, to engage with them on a human level, not just on a professional transactional level. So I think that’s really what I what I talked about, there’s a lot of power in that. I think, frankly, people don’t often enjoy that benefit. Too many people are go through their day, with these transactional relationships without saying no, what I really need is to create this community of people who like and trust and respect each other who are taking a long view. And so that’s really what I’m talking about. Oh, my goodness, Jamie, first of all, I love your term, professional ecosystem as thinking about not just your direct peers, it’s people in different industries, functions and roles, right. So your, your clients, your customers, your suppliers, everybody, everybody, everybody, right, you know, other thought leaders, experts, mentors, right? You know, we all if you’re at all curious, and you’re at all interested in people, you kind of collect people that you want to stay in touch with, not because you want something from them, not because they want something from you, but rather because you give something to each other right, just through your being through your interactions through your conversations. And so really, that’s what we’re talking about is building that group, that network of people that you can go to Even if you haven’t talked to them for 10 years, there’s a trust. And you know, they’re glad to hear from you. You’re glad to hear from them. Yeah. So So one of the things I’m hearing from you in a couple of different contexts here is the significance of the short term versus the long term view. And usually, yeah, when you were describing networking versus networks, I was thinking about communal versus reciprocal relationships, right? From social psychology. And one of the, there is some debate still, whether communal relationships actually exist at all. And something that some academics have said, perhaps it’s just a longer term reciprocity, like you always assume that you’re gonna you’re gonna get get back what you give, and you’re, you’re not keeping score today. I think you’re exactly right, you know, someone who’s purely giving, giving, giving, is ultimately going to find that that relationship isn’t very fulfilling, right? I think there is an expectation that you’re going to get something now what you get may be different from what you give, right? It’s not like, Hey, I’m gonna give you this lead, you give me that lead. It might be, you know, you’re gonna give me an idea, or you’re gonna, you’re gonna give me your attention. There’s any number of things we can give people, which aren’t financial in nature. But, you know, again, just it’s part of being human that that, you know, there’s an expectation that we are going to reciprocate. But But I don’t think, again, I don’t think that has to feel transactional, right, I think that can actually feel very authentic and supportive, supportive. That’s a great word to so. So you said the currencies could be things like ideas, things like attention. And we’re in your in the quote that I shared previously, there was also access, can you talk a little bit about access access to what? Again, it comes back to trust? You know, I think we all assumed, I think it’s access to a few things, one it’s access to, to a person’s authentic thoughts and perspectives, right? I think a lot of times, when you talk to someone, they initially won’t tell you what they really think. And, and, and over time, as you build trust, as as, as you build a relationship, you gain more, you gain more access to a person’s real beliefs, real opinions, real experiences. And so I think you certainly gain that type of access. I think, you know, and again, this is gonna sound transactional, and it’s not, but I think you also gain access to their extended network, you know, we only know the people we know. And yet the people that we know, know, a lot of other people and and to the extent that that those second and third order relationships are valuable, and I would, I would assert that they are, if you’re trying to do anything important, you know, you need access to people you don’t already know. But I think having that pre existing trust and relationship built up to say, you know, I’m, you know, would you introduce me to such and such, you know, I’d like to and and doing the same in return, you know, offering to make introductions in return. Again, not not because you expect something in return, but because it’s the right thing to do, right. Yeah. Hey, there’s someone I know, that could help you. Let me put you in touch. Yeah. I think that creating that there’s a degree of an element of karma involved, right. Like, I think, you know, if you do if you do well by other people, they will in most cases do well, by you. Yeah, it’s that access, it’s access to everything that a person has, right. their knowledge, their, their relationships, their network, their, their experience. Yeah. So you mentioned karma. And I was thinking, personally, I can tell you so many times of when I’ve introduced or connected to people, the satisfaction that I derive from that when they say, Hey, thank you so much for that introduction. And guess what happened? Blah, blah, blah? And I’m like, yes. Look, it’s great when the connection bears fruit, obviously, you know, and you wouldn’t make the connection. If you didn’t think the people had had something, it doesn’t have to be an end result. It could just be, hey, had a great conversation. I really liked this person. Right. And I think it’s actually a great signal for the two people that you introduce, because it also provides an opportunity for you to express the way you feel about them. Right. You know, you know, you know, it’s like, you know, John, I’m introducing you to Andrew, because I think that you two would really enjoy getting to know each other, right, you know, that type of thing, and which shows that that, you know, obviously someone that I respect, I’m introducing someone else I respect and, and, and just the ability to, to kind of put that, that respect and admiration into the world is a good is a good thing. It feels good to do. And I think it you know, it builds trust. So we’re, we’re dancing all around transitivity theory here too, right? So if I know John and I know Andrea, then chances are they’re going to like each other. And by the way, that is how I met my husband. Yes. Exactly. Well, I look, I think a lot of people do meet their spouses. That’s the best kind of job search as well, right? The network job search, you know, this notion that we’re going to go online and find a job, you know, one or 210 times it might work work. Right. But you know, you apply for a job online, there’s 400 people for that same job. Right? Yeah. 1400 4000 people. And so it’s, it’s like buying a lottery ticket versus using a network approach and and saying, and again, it’s not about being transactional, but building trust and saying, This is a person I would like to introduce to somebody else, because I think they may be able to help each other. Brilliant, brilliant. Yeah. So I have a question for you relating to, you know, growing our network through the networks of others. Is a bigger network always better? No, I don’t think so. I think first of all, we have to define what better means, right? Because I think a network has two benefits, I think there is a sort of a functional benefit. In terms of all the things I said, Right. There’s a practical limit to how many people we can stay in touch with sort of maintain trust with and so you know, if you had 100,000 people in your network, is that going to be good? No, because you’re not going to know most of them. You they probably wouldn’t even know if you pass them in the street. And so, so no, I don’t think so. You know, there are people on LinkedIn who will just randomly invite people to be part of  their “network,” which I think is complete nonsense. That to me is not a network. That’s just a collection of names. It’s like a mailing list effectively. So to me, a mailing list of 1000s of people on LinkedIn is not a network a network are people that you could, you could send them an email, you could call them up, and they’d be like, hey, Andrew, it’s great to hear from you, you know, thanks for the call, right? And so I think it needs to be the size it needs to be. And it has to be authentic, you know, this idea that a person can I do believe a person can can try to grow their network. And I think they’re, you know, within reason, there’s goodness in more connections. But they have to be for the right reason, right? It has to be legitimately interested in you, I legitimately want to build a relationship with you build a relationship based on trust, with you. And so I don’t think that just clicking and having 1000s and 1000s of like, random kind of loose acquaintances. That’s not what I look at as a network. It’s not, it’s not social media followers. It’s not social media followers at all. Now, you know, at the end, there are there are stronger and weaker ties, obviously, you know, there’s lots of people that I would consider to be part of my network, for instance, people I might have worked with in the past, you know, people I worked with, you know, 10 or 15 years ago, clearly in my network, and if I was to call them up today, they would probably be glad to hear from me and vice versa. You know, that’s different from people that I interact with, on a daily basis. And I think you need both, you know, I think I think you know, you need to be you know, and that’s that is I will say one of the great things about link a tool, like a link like LinkedIn is that it doesn’t, I wouldn’t say it builds network, what it allows you to do is to stay in to be mindful of what these weak ties are doing, right? You know, someone that you work with a decade ago, you don’t, you’re not in regular contact anymore. But you can, you can see where they’re working, you see what they’re doing, and it kind of creates an opening, sometimes you just send them a note, say, Hey, I saw that you took this such and such a job really interesting. You know, I’d love to learn more, you know, so it does take work keeping the network active, it’s not a passive thing. You have to actively care about people, not for your own sake, because you’re legitimately interested in them. And, you know, hey, so you took this new job, I know somebody that works in that industry, as well would you know, I’d love to love to put you in touch if you thought would be helpful, or those sorts of Yeah, I’m just in my mind, I’m thinking about the different types of connections that I have even just on LinkedIn, nevermind just generally, but on LinkedIn, right? There’s the people that I really only know their name. And I’ve maybe seen some posts, and I’ve been impressed with what they’ve done, but I’ve never reached out to them. And then there’s somewhere like you said, when they take a new job, or you congratulate them and you and it’s it is an efficient way of keeping tabs on people that you’ve worked with, and even connected with in your past. But I’ve also, I’ve also met some incredible people that I’ve ended up, for example, interviewing for this podcast, on LinkedIn. And it’s, it’s from seeing them, you know, make comments that are related to what my audience is interested in, in a way that I thought was really smart. And then I get to know them a little bit and boom, and now they’re, I would call get trusted colleague. So I will, I will sometimes as I think we all do get inbound requests, right to connect with people on LinkedIn. And I don’t know if this is a good thing or not. But I will rarely accept one of those requests without also having a conversation. Right. So normally, what I’ll do is if someone sends me a request, I’ll send the person a note, either through LinkedIn or if I can find their email, I’ll send it to their email, and just say, I saw you wanted to connect with me. I don’t usually accept these without chatting. I think it’s a missed opportunity, frankly, to not have a conversation. If someone’s taking the time and is interested in you and what you do. It’s a missed opportunity to not learn more about them and to have that connection. So so I will generally require that they commit to a call and if they won’t commit to a call, then why am I going to click Accept Right, it seems like such a small thing, you know, if you’re not willing to, to engage on a human level, so yeah, it’s kind of a weird quirk. Yeah. So you’ve very beautifully articulated the significance for you of quality over quantity. Right? Absolutely. Yes. Right. So to your question, is it you know, is bigger better? Not necessarily. I think that, you know, having the network of people that you like, and trust and who feel the same about you, is the most important thing. And by the way, there are a lot of those people, right? So you don’t have to limit yourself. It’s not like, well, we have 10 people that I like to trust. It’s like, Nah, it’s nonsense. We all could find 1000 people, we like contrast, if we, if we tried hard enough. Exactly. So so how do we try? What strategies do you think are effective for us to grow a Quality Network? Well, so first of all, I think it’s, again, friends of friends are always the best way, you know, if you’re, if you are, depending on whatever you do, you know, if if you’re talking with someone, you know, make it known that you you know, you want to introduce your friends to other people, and they tend to do the same in return. So I think a part of it is just getting in that habit of thinking about who you know, and how you can connect them with each other, which, which again, then just creates the environment in which other people then start to connect you with their friends. So I think that’s a part of it, I think, curiosity and is a big part of it and asking questions, right? It actually just happened yesterday I was there’s a person I didn’t don’t know them. That came up in conversation, one of our, a member of one of our networks, had mentioned somebody, and who was actually a friend of a friend. And so I contacted my friend and say, hey, you know, I hear really great things about this person, you know, I’d love to have a chat at some point, not because I want to sell them anything. But just because they they operate in kind of this adjacent space. I thought we might have some things to share with each other right? Connections, insights, experiences that might be of interest. And, you know, if you feel open to it, I’d love to love to get to know this person. And he said, Yeah, happy to introduce you. So when your answer there, Jamie, you said in one of my networks, can you share with us a little bit about what your organization does? Sure. So I think the simplest way to think about what we do is that we effectively create private clubs. For senior executives, it’s really, really opportunities for people to have conversations they should be having with a group of people they should be talking to, and for a variety of reasons, just don’t, I think it’s one of these one of these sort of ironies of life where, you know, as you when you start in any job, any any kind of early in your career, and you got lots of people around, you kind of see the world the same way you do, right, you’re in an entry level job, you got peers, you got colleagues, everybody kind of sees. And what happens is, as you get more and more senior, you know, it’s like climbing a mountain, right, there are fewer and fewer people at your level, and the air becomes a little thinner. And what you find when you get to a certain point, you don’t have to be the CEO, if you don’t, even if you’re a functional leader, you find that there really aren’t people within the organization who see the world the way you do, you know, you’re you’ve kind of risen to this mountain peak, and you’re just sort of looking at over a landscape, that’s very different from what most other people are seeing, not better or worse, it’s just different. And and you don’t have people that you can talk to you don’t have those connections. Internally, and it’s honestly, it’s lonely. You know, it’s a cliche to say that it’s lonely at the top. And yet, the number of executives we speak with who say exactly that, I lost track up. So, you know, what we do basically, is we create these little groups of about 20 to 25 people who meet on a regular basis, usually three or four times a year, to have conversations with each other, that they again, that they should be having, and just aren’t, you know, there’s a lot of structural barriers that make it difficult for senior people to get together. You know, there’s conferences, there’s all sorts of events, but senior people rarely go to those, you know, and if they do go, they’re going to speak and they kind of they they do their thing, and then they split. And so there just aren’t a lot of chances, frankly, for senior people from different organizations to get together and have the kinds of conversations they crave. So I have heard from some of my friends and colleagues who are CEOs or as you said in the C suite that this is very true for them that actually is very lonely in the UK. But the other thing that I hear from them is that the people that are reaching out to them, they sometimes question whether they should trust these people. Right? So you’re you’re providing these network members with a trusted network? Are they peers that are indirect competitors, direct competitors? Or do you somehow make sure that they are not competing at all, there’s many ways you can slice a peer network, you know, you can slice it by role, you can slice it by industry, you can slice it by age, you can slice it by a geography we generally do networks that are either around a particular role and or around a particular industry. Okay, so how do you encourage these people in the same discipline and or the same industry to build trust? In most jobs, there is strategic competitive information They’re not going to share. And they shouldn’t share, right? If they’re if you’re in a public company, for instance, you shouldn’t share nonpublic information, right? With anyone forget about your competitor, you shouldn’t share with anybody. And so yes, there’s certain things that are gonna be off balance, no question. There’s generally three types of topics that that we talked about in our groups, I would say. So the first are issues that are external to people’s organizations. These are industry trends. You know, this could be regulation, you know, any number of things that are happening in the world. And, and so the question, there isn’t so much what’s happening, you know, everyone’s up to speed. These are sophisticated people we work with, but it’s really more that it’s not. So it’s not the what, it’s the sowhat. And the, you know, how does this matter? You know, why is this happening? What does this mean? And there’s enormous amount of value in that, right, that’s not really competitive. It is, I guess, a little bit on the margin. But, you know, ultimately, most, the basis of most competition is to be execution anyway, right? So, so saying, hey, there’s a new regulation that’s being proposed, what does that mean? How do we think about it? Is this good or bad? You know, what are the long term consequences? Those are great conversations that people want to have with other sophisticated people who are kind of looking at the issues in the same way. And so so that’s one type of topic. The second set of topics are generally around matters that are internal to an organization, policies, practices, procedures, you know, how do we do what we do? And well, and we’re not proposing that there’s a better or worse, right? We’re not saying this is best practice. Every organization has a different history, different culture, different geographic footprint. And so the topics tend to really be more around the assumptions that people are make, which is fascinating. Again, just understanding other people’s assumptions is really an incredibly enlightening takeaway. You know, sometimes it confirms that people are doing things right. You know, hey, we’re all doing things kind of the same way. We all have a, you know, we all have a marketing department. Isn’t that interesting? Right? But if someone says, No, we’ve done away with our marketing department. Oh, that’s fascinating. Tell me more, right? You want to learn more about why and kind of what the assumptions were behind that? So So that’s the second set of topics are these internal matters? And then the third set of topics tend to be more personal, you know, how can you become a better leader? How do you balance successful professional life with a rewarding personal life? How do you learn to manage stress?   I would love to be a fly on the wall, especially for the third topic that you said the personal and professional, the leadership, the communication skills? Are that all that stuff? Fascinating. Yeah.   So the idea is, we create these groups, and then we run them, you know, for years and years and years and years. And, you know, what you find in the early meetings is this sort of low hanging fruit and people are feeling each other out a little bit that trust hasn’t yet built? Yeah. And so people are reluctant to be very vulnerable, or sort of really show their their weaknesses, everything’s, you know, sunshine and unicorns. And then what you find is it by by about the third or fourth or fifth meeting, people start to become more vulnerable. And that’s when those those more personal topics really come to the fore, willing to say, I’m really having a hard time with this, or I’m wondering how to, you know, I know, I’m wondering how to have more influence in my organization, you know, I feel like I’m doing a great job. And yet, I’m not really being taken as seriously as I should be. How can I how can I be more effective? What are things other people have done to build that that authority that? So I think a key theme here is trust, just based on this entire conversation, and based on the whole phenomenon of networks and networking? And speaking of themes, your firm is called sky bridge associates. And your book, which I read a couple of years ago, is building bridges. So can you talk about the bridge metaphor as it relates to networks? Absolutely. The bridge metaphor is really important to me, if you just think about what a bridge does, right? A bridge takes you from where you are, where you want to be, generally over some sort of danger, whether it’s road or river or something, right, so you’re trying to get from one place to another and get over something dangerous. And so that’s really what this is, to me, it’s a mechanism to go on this journey. Again, I often will use the mountain metaphor as well, where you know, you’re standing on top of the mountain. In order to get to the top of another mountain, normally, you would have to go down your mountain along the road up the other mountain, and there’s a lot of friction there, right. Whereas if you build a bridge, because there’s virtual bridge in the sky, connecting the mountaintops, that allows people much more easily to interact with each other. And so that’s really the the origin of the sky bridge metaphor, bridging people, bridging ideas, bridging relationships, beautiful. So before we get into the five rapid fire questions, Jamie, I just wanted to ask you a couple of more sort of tactical questions. The first one is, what mistakes do you see people making the most common mistakes you see people making when they’re networking? Well, I think the biggest mistake is thinking of networking in transactional terms. If one does go to a networking event, the goal isn’t to collect business cards. I think the goal is to find people who are kindred spirits who you want to build a longer term relationship with, right and and so I think that’s the biggest mistake people make is that they actually seek out networking opportunities as opposed to focus on building a network. For a strong, high quality, the wrong high quality, which by the way takes time. It takes effort. It takes authenticity. It takes goodwill, it has to come from a spirit of generosity. I think the people who have great networks, I don’t mean just these are people who are generous people. Yeah, you very much remind me of my friend, Sharon Mah-Gin, who I interviewed about networking for a previous episode. And she’s all about being generous adding value, and definitely certainly not expecting anything in return. Sounds like Sharon and I should meet each other. Yeah, yeah. You should you also network. This is a networking opportunity. Andrea, can I connect to you, Jamie? Would love to? Yeah, of course. Like I said, I always love love to be kindred spirits. They push me to think yeah, Sharon does that for me? And so do you. So there we go. transitivity theory in action. Perfect. My last question is probably the most tactical. But do you have any suggestions for online networking? In particular, I don’t think online or offline makes any difference. Honestly, you know, a lot of it comes down to being somewhat intentional, knowing the kinds of people you want to get to know. And knowing the kinds of people that you do know that you want to introduce to others. It’s not about being in person. But being in the office, frankly, some of the best networks are those outside your own organization. I don’t think there’s anything different. I don’t think COVID has changed anything in terms of the tactics of building a strong network. I really don’t think of anything that’s made it easier. I think, frankly, the prevalence of zoom is actually made it easier to build a network, I think it allows people to build trust much more quickly than they might have previously. Yeah, I agree. Actually. 100% I wasn’t expecting you to say that. But I agree. And I love your answer, though. It’s really about your intention. And when it comes to the intention, the medium through which you’re communicating, whether you’re at a cocktail party downtown in a big hotel, right, or, yeah, whether you’re on a Zoom meeting with two people or with 20 people, it’s about your intention. It’s about your intention. Right. And and you know, the problem with it with the cocktail party downtown, I’m first of all, I avoid those like the plague. But usually, it’s such a scattered group of people, you know, you kind of look around you like, how did I get in this room? Like, you know, who are these people? I don’t I end up in this room, you know, you’re looking around, and everyone’s kind of checking their phone, because they want to seem like they’re incredibly busy, right? Because they feel like a loser that and so there’s just pathetic element to it. And eventually, like someone comes up to you, and you just pray that someone who’s remotely interesting, right, and 10% of the time they are, versus like I said, I’m more what I would argue is a more authentic way of, quote, networking, or building a network, which is, you know, the old fashioned way, you know, I got a friend that I think you might like, or I’ve seen something you’ve read, I’d love to chat with you, I think we might have some common interest, or I’d like to introduce you to someone I know, right, which is a much and weirdly, a much more authentic way you think that the in person kind of all together in the same room would be would be more authentic. It’s actually not it’s a very kind of weirdly inorganic way of meeting people. I can’t think of a single person that I’ve met at a quote, networking event that I could call this morning, and you know, they would know who I am. Interesting. Well, you haven’t met Sharon yet? No, no, but but but the point is, I’m gonna meet sure in a different way, I’m going to meet you because you’re going to introduce me to share, which is very different from going to an event that those never lead to anything they sometimes in the moment they lead to a pleasant conversation, you might learn something, hey, I met a really interesting person. I was nice, you know, let’s get coffee. And then 99% of the time you never get coffee. I’m not opposed to social graces. But I don’t think that it’s really a very effective way of getting to know people. So all hail zoom networking opportunity. I’d love to move on now to the five rapid fire questions that I asked every guest. Are you ready? I’m ready. Question number one. What are your pet peeves? I have many. I have many and I have few. I’m a pretty tolerant guy. I love I think professionally. My pet peeves. I have two with regard to LinkedIn. We’ve talked about that. The one is and I think this is I’m probably not the only person to say this. I hate when people say that they are humbled by something. You know, if you have won a Nobel Prize, I think you have the right to be humbled. I think if you have taken a job in a mid level position at a at a mid level company to say you’re humbled to take that job is insane. And so I can’t stand it when people say they’re humbled, maybe proud you may be Yeah, whatever. But so I hate the word humbled in that context, unless you want a Nobel Prize, and I also can’t stand LinkedIn is increasing prevalence of the polls that people are putting up. To me it is the online equivalent of clickbait. I find it to be you know, people ask questions as though they actually care about the answer, which I don’t think they do. Yeah. Question number two, what type of learner Are you? I love to read. So I definitely you know, and visual in that regard. I find that I tend to do pretty well listening you know, I enjoy it. I listen to people all day. And so I learned a lot from that. Honestly, though, the way I take all of us I have read and listened to and make sense of it is by talking. As you can probably figure from this podcast, I am not afraid to talk and I would describe myself as a verbal learner. Nothing really gets loaded into memory long term memory unless I have said it out loud. So you learn by talking. I’ve heard I’ve heard learn by teaching. I haven’t heard learn by talking. That’s a good one Yeah, no, it’s a real thing is verbal learning. So Jamie, I just have to say, Welcome to talk about talk. There you go. Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert? extrovert? Yeah, I’m extrovert, I get a lot of energy from other people, which I would you know, I enjoy solitary time, too. I’m not afraid of being by myself. But I get a lot of energy by being around other people.  Ditto. Okay, question number four communication preference for personal conversations, what media do you like to use? And what kind of conversation you know, if it’s quick, transactional stuff, and text is good. I mean, I think primarily phones, zoom right are going to be the best. You know, most of the time, in a personal conversation. There’s some amount of nuance, I can’t stand long text or, you know, email chains. I think it’s sometimes it’s easier just to pick up the phone and talk about something.  All right, last question. Is there a podcast or a blog, or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending, in terms of blogs, the ones I really like, there’s a daily blog that Seth Godin does, which I think is fantastic. Seven out of 10 are good one out of 10 is genius. There’s very few that are bad. Scott Galloway love his email, which sort of always tease things up in a provocative way with graphics and a whole bunch of cool stuff. And then there’s a third one that I really like. And again, it’s not for everybody. But there’s this fellow Ryan Craig, who’s actually Canadian, who has something called the gap letter. He’s a higher ed expert, and has a venture capital firm called University ventures, which is really looking at the future of higher ed. And and Ryan is an unbelievable writer, just unbelievable. Whether or not you’re interested in the topic, he always makes you think. And so I love I love his newsletter. Well, I’m also a fan of Seth Godin, and a big fan of Scott Galloway, and Ryan, Craig, I hadn’t heard of, I’m going to leave links for all of those in the show notes. Before I let you go, is there anything else you want to share about the power of networks, the one thing I would say about the power of networks is that, you know, one of the most powerful things you can do is to actually not just be in a network yourself, but to create a network and support a network for your clients recognizing that they probably need this and probably don’t have it, creating these networks, being in the room as they talk with each other, you obviously build relationships, true, true, authentic relationships, right? Not transactional, you gain insights into the market needs, you would never, you would never understand, you know, the beauty of sponsoring a network is that you get access to those insights of what your clients are dealing with, you’d never hear otherwise. And then the third is that it just it creates a branding opportunity to show that you care, right? So hard in life, to show that you care about people and that you’re committed to their success. And so that’s the other thing I guess I would say is that built that is not just about being in a network, it’s also providing and supporting and fostering a network for other people. Very well put in as you’re saying that, Jamie, I was thinking this is the segue to maybe part two of this conversation at some point where we talk about the power of communities, and it’s just a little bit different. It’s subtly different from the power of a network. Right. And, and I was thinking maybe someday I’ll be able to sponsor one of your, your networks. And I’ll be no sponsored by talk about talk. Right? Look, there are people that will hire us too, as a third party, which is fine, but you don’t have to hire a third party. People can do this on their own. Yeah, not everyone has the budget or so forth to justify that doesn’t mean you can’t still do it, right. Any person can offer, whether it’s a quarterly dinner, whether it’s a roundtable session, whatever, you know, that’s not focused on you presenting to them. So many of these things are like, let me you know, let’s get together. And I’m going to walk you through a PowerPoint deck on some topic of extra, no, don’t do that. Right. You get people together, and you run a conversation where they talk with each other and you just sit quietly and listen. And anyone can do that. You could do that. Anyone could do that. Create it just saying every quarter I’m going to organize a 60 minute zoom call with my biggest clients to have them talk to each other. It’s fantastic. Thank you so much, Jamie, for sharing all your thoughts on the power of networks. This was a fantastic conversation. I’m thinking about networks and networking a little bit differently than I was before this conversation. So thank you. You’re welcome. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, Andrea. THANKS for LISTENING.  Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #92 The Power of NETWORKS with Jamie Millar appeared first on Talk About Talk.

The best of Talk About Talk, including the top 3 most downloaded podcast episodes of 2021, 3 insights we learned, and 3 communication goals for 2022. SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST RESOURCES   Books & Podcast Episodes “Talk Like Ted” by Carmine Gallo #58: Communicate with CONFIDENCE – Mental Preparation #86: Introductions – How to INTRODUCE Yourself #75: LEADERSHIP – Communicate Like a Boss with Jill Nykoliation   Jill Nykoliation & Andrea Wojnicki   Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk  Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/  THANKS for LISTENING.  Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #91 The BEST OF Talk About Talk – top 3 appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Have you been told it’s time to start “demonstrating leadership”? Learn 5 ways to communicate your leadership potential and make leadership an integral part of your personal brand. You can create thought leadership, demonstrate people leadership, you can talk leadership, and more. RESOURCES   Podcast Episodes #52 – Communication Skills of Effective Leaders – with executive coach Heather Stark #58 – The 4P’s of Mentally Preparing to Communicate with Confidence #59 – The A.B.C.D.E.’s of Confidence in the Moment #83 – Let’s Talk Imposter Syndrome #75 – Leadership: Communicate Like a Boss! – with Jill Nykoliation, CEO Juniper Park\TBWA  Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk  Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/  THANKS for LISTENING.  Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web: https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #90 DEMONSTRATING LEADERSHIP: Leadership & Your Personal Brand appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you like the sound of your voice? Can your voice be improved? Do you have an accent? In this interview with voice expert Judith Weinman, you’ll learn 5 things you can do to optimize the sound of your voice, how to leverage your voice in terms of your personal brand, and all about accents. RESOURCES   JUDITH WEINMAN Accent on Speech: www.accentjweinman.com Email: info@accentjweinman.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram Judith recommends: Podcast: Lexicon Valley, hosted John H. McWhorter Ludmila Praslova, Organizational Psychologist: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ludmila-praslova Other Resources Talk About Talk #2 “Using Your Voice”with opera singer Bradley Christensen Talk About Talk #43 “Posture and Breathing” with Dr. Nadine Kelly, YogiMD Book: How You Say It: Why You Talk the Way You Do – And What It Says About You, by Katherine D. Kinzler Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/   TRANSCRIPT “ our voice reveals who we are, who we think we are, perhaps, who we’re trying to be, and even who we’re trying not to be. It’s a reflection of our personal history, and experiences, where we grew up our culture, and other factors. And in a moment, it can reflect our confidence level, our energy level, and our overall comfort in the given situation.” Greetings and welcome to Talk About Talk. I’m your communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (please call me Andrea!). Welcome to Talk About Talk episode number 89. Today we’re talking about YOUR VOICE. Our voice is critical to what and how we’re communicating, but many of us don’t spend a lot of time and energy focused on our voice. Well, we should, and that’s why we’re here. Are you an ambitious executive with a growth mindset, looking to advance your career? Well, you’re in the right place. At Talk About Talk, we focus on communication-skills-topics like personal branding, confidence, networking, and yes, your voice. This is the important stuff they don’t teach you in school. That’s ok though, because I got your back. If you check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website, you’ll find online corporate training, 1-on-1 coaching with me, the archive of this bi-weekly podcast, and the free weekly communication-skills newsletter. I really hope you’ll go to the website and sign up for the free weekly communication skills training newsletter. But you can choose what works for you! OK – I’m really excited to introduce my guest Judith Wineman. I met Judy on LinkedIn recently, and I’m so glad we connected! Judy is a corporate Speech, Voice and Communications Trainer at her Manhattan firm called “Accent On Speech.” In this interview, youll learn how to leverage your voice in terms of your personal brand, all about accents, a list of 5 things you can do to optimize the sound of your voice, and more! Let’s get into this interview now. I’m going to briefly introduce Judy, and then you’ll hear my interview of her. Then at the end, I’ll summarize the key learnings. So as always, you don’t need to take notes, because I summarize everything for you at the end of the episode. And you can always access the printable episode shownotes on the talkabouttalk.com website. So, while you’re listening, you can just keep doing whatever you’re doing – driving or walking or housework, or hanging out on the couch. You don’t have to lift a finger to take notes because I do that for you. You’re welcome. OK – Judy. Judith Weinman is communications trainer and speech/language pathologist based in New York City, where she specializes in improving speech and communication skills, public speaking/meeting skills, accent modification, enhancing the voice, inter- and intra-office communication issues, as well as writing skills. She has over 25 years experience as a licensed speech/language therapist and working with individuals, groups, and corporations such as Bloomberg, IBM, and Citibank to function more successfully and harmoniously, through addressing communication barriers that can impede progress. She has a BA in linguistics, an MA in communicative disorders, and she’s also had theatrical training in terms of voice, singing, acting and movement. Yes, she has a fantastic voice. ANDREA: Thank you so much, Judy, for joining us here today to talk about the sound of our voices. JUDITH: Thank you, it’s a pleasure to be here, ANDREA: I have to admit to you just right out of the gates that I am feeling so self conscious about my voice speaking. I don’t particularly love or hate my voice, it’s kind of, I guess I’m neutral about it. And I wouldn’t say that I’m self aware of my communication in general, just given what I do for a living, but talking to you, I’m smooth. JUDITH: Oh, oh, that’s something that really drives me crazy. In a way when people say they feel self conscious about their voice or the way they speak. Because first of all, most people struggle with their vocal image. In some respect, I really cut people a lot of slack. And I’m not judging. When I work with clients, we talk about how they feel about their voice, and their speech, and their comfort level with their own voice. And if there’s a gap between how they sound and how they feel, we’ll work on it. Because that really affects your well being your state of mind. If how you sound doesn’t truly represent how you want to be presenting yourself to the world. ANDREA: There’s an interesting analogy here, right in terms of us being sort of queued up thinking about our appearance, and how we look to others. And now we’re thinking about how we sound to others. I think it’s fantastic to have the self awareness. So I wasn’t trying to make you feel bad by saying that I thought, Oh, JUDITH: yeah, you know, it, it’s true. And I think women, well, I know, the women are judged more harshly based on how they look and how they sound. So I am especially empathetic, and a proponent for to women, to feel comfortable with their voice to own their voice, to not be judging themselves left and right, based on how they sound, that there’s such a history of prejudice and women’s voice, and bias and allowing women even to speak on the radio. And it’s mind boggling what women have dealt with, with regards to voice and looks. So yeah, that’s one of my passions is working with women to rid themselves of that self criticism of debt that we have batters, our voices. ANDREA: Amazing. I can’t wait to get into that. But before we do get into that, I just want to take a step back. And you said there’s how we are feeling, right. And then there’s how we are perceived by others. And I’m thinking there’s like a, there’s a third circle here, if you want to make a Venn diagram, where it’s how we want to be perceived by others, right? So it’s how we are perceived, how we want to be perceived and how we feel. And we can kind of get all of those converging to an optimal to an optimal state, then that’s really what we’re seeking here. And I guess what my first question then is, can you start by sharing what we are implicitly communicating with our voice? So what are the, I guess adjectives or the traits that we’re saying about ourselves through our voice? JUDITH: Sure. Well, like we just were speaking about our voice reveals who we are, who we think we are, perhaps, who we’re trying to be, and even who we’re trying not to be. It’s a reflection of our personal history, and experiences, where we grew up our culture, and other factors. And in a moment, it can reflect our confidence level, our energy level, and our overall comfort in the given situation. Research shows this is interesting, within 30 seconds of hearing a voice we are judging a person’s size, height, education level, gender, sexual orientation, attractiveness, intelligence, and trustworthiness. So the voice goes is goes deep, you know, it’s almost more it’s more primal than speech. We had voice before we had words, we pick up cues from a voice that we are not aware of. It’s not conscious. But we are judging, a person after just a few lines. It’s truly amazing. We’re high tech computers, when we hear, interpret and decipher a voice. ANDREA: This during my brain, my brain is exploding as you’re just firing through all of this. I’m like, Where do I begin? So I love your list where you said, research shows that we’re communicating all of these things, right? And it’s it, everything that you could communicate. I even read recently may have been in a blog that you wrote actually, about how we are even implicitly interpreting other people’s health based on their voice, you can we can implicitly diagnose people as being healthy or unhealthy, which may explain why certain voices are more appealing in some way, right? They may sound more credible, more confident, and more healthy. So in terms of our voice, can you run us through A list of the different ways that our voices may vary? JUDITH: well to speak to what you were just talking about. I think if there’s a harsh quality or a strained aspect of a voice, it implies a lack of perhaps self care, and wellness. And we hear that. So if there’s a strain, or we’ve maybe been abusing our voice, we hear that we pick it up. But what are we signaling with our voice? And you’re right, absolutely, each of those factors contribute to the overall impact we have with our voice. So tone, I’m going to start with tone. If we’re pushing our voices, in any place in our bodies and our throats, we’re going to diminish the impact we make speech and communication is all about creating spaces within ourselves, open spaces and not closing ourselves off. And connecting to our breath in such a way that our thoughts just play over our breath. Our voice travels over our breath with our words flowing. So if we’re fighting our breath, but we’re holding it, a person picks up on it, they’re not relaxed, they’re not connected to their breath. ANDREA: So I have to say, you probably have found the same thing that breath is this phenomenon, I suppose that is so integral to so many things. Yeah, right. It’s like I, every time I turn around, there’s another fantastic podcast or article, a research study that says, breathing isn’t just bringing oxygen into your body. It’s doing all of these things. And one thing that I that I did here, when I’m doing my podcast, for example, if I’m recording a podcast, I will make especially the strong statements, the proclamations on the exhale. And I’ve heard that strong presenters, people that are giving speeches, keynote speeches, they will actually practice inhaling between the main ideas and exhaling the ideas, right? So using their breath to project to physically project their voice. JUDITH: Yeah, but it’s all speech is produced on the exhalation. Hmm, right? So otherwise, like me talking like that. But but I think I understand what you’re saying is, in order to speak effectively, we have to take an adequate inhalation. Ah, we create space in our body. Ah, and if we’re holding our breath, we can’t think clearly find our thoughts. we pause. We inhale on the pause, we find our thoughts. We deliver them on the exhalation. Yeah. And if we’re holding our breath, we’re going to make ourselves tensor. By the way, there’s a natural relaxation reflex on the exhalation. So if we’re accustomed to speaking with a nice inhalation, and a long exhalation, we’re just calming ourselves down through our speech. We’re helping ourselves to remain calm, and grounded and present. but I want to make sure I answered your question. People expect, they think that they’re supposed to rattle off a string of sentences and there can’t be a pause. And it’s not natural. We stop, we pause, we think we find our thoughts. And then we deliver them with our words. That’s human, right. And people are afraid of pauses. ANDREA: Yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting. It’s almost like a cliche, right? That silence is golden, or embrace the silence. And it is a common thing. We race to fill the silence with our voice. JUDITH: Yep. And so much of the communication takes place in the silence. So allow us to sink in, right? Yeah. ANDREA: No, I think I’m gonna leave that in. That’s funny. JUDITH: Okay, so I started with tone and breath. I work with men sometimes who don’t open their mouth, so they have a lot of jaw tension, or the whole there’s their sound back in the back of their throats. Okay, so if you don’t move your mouth a lot when you speak, you’re going to, you’re going to sound mumbled because and also you probably going to talk fast because I can talk really fast if I don’t love my mouth. Okay, so it won’t be the voice. Do you want to projected in the front of a courtroom? Right? Okay, you’re here, you’re further divergence, ladies and gentlemen. You know, that expression is lying between to his teeth, … It doesn’t sound fully committed, like maybe he doesn’t fully believe what he’s saying. Or he’s not confident about his message, right? Because if you’re confident you’ll commit, you move your mouth. You allow your words and sounds to flow out. You’re not holding in any way if you’re holding back What do you hide in our voice and speech thinking? It’s also why ANDREA: I never thought of that before. So I have heard that showing your hands implicitly shows your audience or the person you’re communicating You have nothing to hide, because you are literally showing them what’s in your hand, I’m not holding a gun, I’m not holding a rock that I’m going to throw at you. I’m showing you my hands, I have nothing to hide, you can trust me. But actually using your mouth and opening your jaw, you’re also communicating enthusiasm, if nothing else, right? JUDITH: Absolutely. commitment to the word you’re speaking and the words you’re shaping and sharing. Right? You should teach the word you’re speaking one of my teachers wants to have. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s just another form of protection and holding back and one of the many habits that we create over time to protect ourselves. If you change the way you speak and sound, you will affect the way you feel about yourself, change your voice and change your future. That’s what I truly believe. And we can get stuck in a certain identity even I’ve worked with young women and business, and they still sound like they’re in their sororities. And when they’re talking to business, it’s not going to convey the credibility that they’re looking for. And it can be so hard to let go of this identity, because it’s what they’ve been using for maybe four years or so. ANDREA: And it’s related back again, to just being self aware. So do you sound like the person you used to be? Or do you sound like the person that you want to become? Right? JUDITH: And we’re constantly changing, and our voice has changed over a course of our lifetime. And once in a while, it’s important to check in just my voice represent who I am now. Am I still talking with a little girl voice? Or am I still talking from my throat? And then when I speak to be heard, people call me harsh or abrasive? Well, it’s because you got used to speaking with your throat, there’s a theory that some women are afraid of feeling their power, space within their bodies, their torso, especially, and reaching those lower fundamental, frequent those frequencies and feeling their power. Because they don’t want to come across as dominant or too strong. Sometimes women aren’t even aware of it for women. Do you want to come across as strong and credible? Yeah, I do. It’s important to me, I’m all for that. Well, then, let’s let’s let’s investigate this. But in your 40s… ANDREA: Oh, my gosh, Judith, my brain, again, is just going crazy. So I do a lot of work with my clients on personal branding. And I talk about explicitly and implicitly communicating your brand. But I’ve I’ve rarely spoken with someone on. So what is your voice communicating? Is it consistent with your personal brand, right? And there’s a massive opportunity there to talk to people about once we’ve articulated your personal brand, how can we signal those things through your voice? JUDITH: Well, our personal brand can be more than one thing. It might be one of credibility and authority. It also is one of warmth, and, and relatedness. And, and wow, I can relate to this person. So in depending on the context, if you’re part of your brand, if you’re presenting to a large group of people, you might want to cultivate a strong authoritative sound and one that carries throughout the hall if you’re in a bland space, right? They need to feel your presence based on that space. And that’s appropriate. And you need to be flexible, even within your brand. Because then when you’re having a conversation with a friend or a client one on one, you might you know, use more a warmer tone. And but that’s part of who you are, too. You’re, you’re not one dimensional, human being are multi dimensional. ANDREA: Youre reminding me of a girlfriend of mine, who I admire her so much. She’s very, very strong, personally and professionally, she’s very admirable. And she’s she’s a great business person. She’s a very successful executive. But if I go for a walk with her, you know, just around the block, or we go for a power walk. I feel like saying to her, turn your volume down, not everybody needs. Right. So it’s like that part of her personal brand being this strong, successful executive. It may be to be filtered out a little bit through her voice when she’s not in that executive context. JUDITH: This is really interesting. People become comfortable with an identity that they’ve honed, and that’s the like we’re talking about, that’s the voice they’ve become comfortable with. It’s the one that works. And it’s absolutely fine to talk like this sometimes like with your friends. You’re cutting yourself off from the different aspects of your personality. If you rely on that one character that one person So now, because you’re much more than that, and sometimes I’ll work with clients on something called voicing the shadow. And it’s about if you allow yourself like women fear, sounding small or delicate. And sometimes we’ll just play with characters, depending on what their goals are, of course, but you might speak 10 different ways in a given day. Because a voice is flexible, it needs to be flexible, to express all the different parts of who you are. I’ll work with these men who very sound very professional, but then when they need to tell someone, okay, we’re going to have to layoff 100 people, they can’t use this strong, but this place that they become very comfortable with and honed for their career. Right? Right, I have to be flexible, you have to be open to the different voices that are within you, depending on the situation. ANDREA: So what are the levers that we have to change our voice? So obviously, well, not obviously, but you did mention breath and posture. And in terms of cadence, just embracing the silence? What are some of the other things that we can turn up, turn down and play with the at physically or even a mindset that will change the way our voice sounds? JUDITH: Sure, some of my clients tend to speak in a bit of a monotone, especially people tend to push their voices down in order to try to sound deeper or more authoritative, they ended up end up just sounding monotone. And that’s another that’s an issue in itself, because we have to train them to work within their range, and understand what resonance means. It’s very safe to kind of stay within a rigid range. Occasionally, I’ll do exercises with a client, say I’ll have them read aloud a fairy tale, once upon a time, and really exaggerate these aspects of voice, the ups and downs, the elongations, the loudness, the softness, to explore the dynamism that they are capable within their voice, but that they are not just not used to accessing on a daily basis. But when shown and reminded, wow, this is what you can do with your voice, how powerful this can be if you bring some of this into your meeting, or conversation, right. So it’s difficult for people to access a voice they’re not used to using. So I also have a background in singing and acting and improv. And character use is a great strategy for finding another voice that we might not use on our own. But once we explore that character, and ah, we’ve been that loud, preacher, man, and then I have you get up and deliver your speech without voice now just tone it down a bit. Oh, you found that feeling and sound within yourself. You’ve got that? See there? It’s just reawakening it or eliciting it or bring it right. ANDREA: Amazing. I love that. So people are giving speeches, I have coached people to emulate to borrow someone else’s confidence. And I have the story about how I went out on stage at a university theatre where I was teaching over 1000 students and they make me up and I said, I felt like Madonna and I was a little bit nervous. But I had this it occurred to me, maybe I can channel The Madonna’s confidence. And I walked out there and I felt like a rock star, right? But actually, maybe mentally practicing that. Like I can imagine Madonna greeting her audience. Hey, everyone, right? JUDITH: I love it, Andrea, we allow ourselves to do different things when we become another character. That’s why I also I do accent modification. And I find that with actors, they are so much more willing to do a different accent or have sounded different way. They’ve given themselves permission to be different. It doesn’t it’s not phony, that being a character. So when you’re a character, you allow yourself to feel a different way that you wouldn’t it within the confines of your own ego and identity. Ah, where allow yourself to play. Ah, because we don’t say so much as adults we play is. Right. And it’s a great way to access these different sounds and voices that that are within us. Sometimes I’ll have a client belt out like a woman who tends to hold back and we’ll start a session we’ll just belt out and Aretha Franklin song, right. So she’s not pulling back. We’re thinking forward – forward momentum, right? Because we’ve noticed a tendency, she kind of even pulls back in your body forward, sing it out. And you’re Aretha, who you know, she’s talking Who are you? There’s so many tricks and strategies we can use to borrow these parts of our voice. ANDREA: So one of the questions that I wanted to ask you is about the ideal voice, which you know, based on what we’ve already been talking about, it really depends On the context, I’m still gonna ask the question, but understanding there’s going to be a lot of caveats here, right? So in a business context, so for example, if you’re seated around a boardroom table, and you want your voice heard, you want to be respected. You want people to respect your expertise, what would the ideal voice so like? JUDITH: So the ideal voice within this context, because like you said, it’s very context specific. Okay, so an ideal voice is not pushed or strained. An ideal voice is connected to the person, or the breath, an ideal voice is aware of the space that it’s in, and what needs to happen in order for it to be heard and your presence to be felt in within its confines, by every interaction is your gauging, what do I need to do with my voice in order for it to be heard, and to pour in order for my message to be felt. But again, this ideal voice idea, it depends upon the context if you’re culturally, so um, you know, different cultures do voice differently. Japanese men kind of pitch their voices lower than so they would say that’s more of an ideal voice in that context. Japanese women have the highest voices, and it’s expected. So that’s what an all these I these issues related to voice and ideals, there’s so many factors that apply when working internationally, because you need to consider this is a cultural fact. But an ideal voice in a meeting, you want to sound like you believe what you’re saying. You don’t want to be rushed. You don’t want to be holding your breath. But an ideal voice has a unique voice to your anatomy is unique, your vocal folds are unique, right? If you try to sound like someone else, it’s not going to work. You know, you have to pay attention to your rhythm, your breath, or else it’s not going to come across as authentic and real and powerful. ANDREA: 100% 100%. So this reminds me of Margaret Thatcher about how she took voice lessons just before one of her elections which she then one and then apparently she went on record saying part of the reason that she won was because she changed her voice. And if you go on YouTube, you can watch these videos where they play her speaking before and after. And there is a significant difference in how she sound. JUDITH: there’s quite a bit of political folklore attached to that Maggie Margaret Thatcher story. And there’s actually no proof that she worked with a vocal coach. Oh, she worked with Saatchi and Saatchi which is a PR firm. But it was an embedded was a decision she made based on her own feelings about her voice and her advisors. I read that when beginning of career, she sounded a bit like a school mom. She had a squeezed voice, and it sounded a bit pushed, and in a big push. And as Britain started to proletarianize her advisors wanted her to sound monitor, but to be able to reach the ordinary people, not just the upper middle class. And so she needed a simple – more to the point like boys, if she said, You can’t spend more than you earn, it would sound patronizing. You can’t spend more than you earn. So she lowered it. She’d also been experiencing dry throat and coughing and sore throats from the way she was pushing her voice when we were thrilled. And she was losing her voice and unable to speak, and certain context. So she did lower her voice, again and again, that does go along with this issue that women have had throughout history and with their voices and being judged. ANDREA: It’s not just how we sound it’s how we look. It’s how we present ourselves. That’s what we talk about. It’s the whole deal, right? JUDITH: Absolutely. Yeah. And one could argue she, she had to make herself sound like a man in order to be respected. I truly don’t believe that’s the case, I believe. But if she had understood how to use of voice helpfully, and ask yourself, it wouldn’t be about trying to sound like a noun. It would be creating a resonant sound with her natural voice, because she was pitching her boss awkward. And, you know, so it’s tricky, and a lot of it comes down to this margaret thatcher’s story. Yeah. ANDREA: Yeah. Well, it’s kind of like the cliche voice story, I think. But it reminds me also of a quote that I heard you say in a previous podcast of yours that I was listening to where you talk about the home court advantage, and this was in the context of different people’s accents. So when people go to new cultures, new countries, where people speak Certain Way, and their voice may sound different, it may make them self feel self conscious. And they may want to kind of minimize the sound of their accent, if nothing else to optimize the clarity of what they’re trying to say. So do you have any guidance for people in terms of accents? JUDITH: Yes, listen, English has become the global language for business. That in itself sets up an inequity issue, we talk about diversity inclusion. So both non natives and natives need to be aware of the issues that arise when dealing with this. The number one concern is that a person is understood that their speech is clear enough to be understood. But many of my clients who have accents are completely fluent, and might have one or two words here or there that are a little hard to understand. But what they are often working on and striving for, is to master the music, the intonation, and the ability to express themselves with nuance more effectively, I’d say 90% of my clients say I don’t want to get rid of my accent, I just want to feel a more organic connection from my brain to my mouth. And to feel really comfortable in my sound. Like I had an Indian client who was let go from a position. He was an accountant, because he was quoted as on the phone are saying $70 million when he had actually said 17 17 $17 million. Oh, wow. JUDITH: Right. 17 numbers 17. And in addition, clients were asking to work with other accountants because they were having trouble understanding him. Now, I don’t believe this should be an issue that should be addressed or talked about on such eggshells, I believe he should have felt comfortable enough to ask for the support. And I believe that HR should have been supportive enough to say we really value having you and I don’t think it should be this issue of Oh, it’s such a taboo thing. It should be an open discussion. There should be no stigma, oh, my God, they speak another language. That is that’s more than most Americans speak. And when I work with American business people, and they go over to Japan, I’ll train them. This is what you do, this is what you don’t, you’re going to be perceived as rude if you do this, etc. And to go back to the playing field issue. So if this Indian speaker is working in an American firm, and most of his firm is made up of Americans support him. ANDREA: Yeah, it’s not it’s not a stigma. I like that word you brought in the word stigma. And it’s almost like the onus is on us. If we are the native language speakers, and we hear someone else whose accent sounds a little bit different. It’s not a bad thing, right? It’s a signal of their experience, which is the very beginning. JUDITH: interesting. There’s different perceptions about accent I, when I hear an accent, I’ve always loved accents. Yeah, well, they have a different viewpoint. And that’s what we all want in business in a meeting you want various viewpoints, it also shows that they’re industrious, and then educated and hardworking. Now those are natural bias that occurs in human beings, infants will go to a voice that they’ve heard in vitro, at five years of age, kids will be friend, a kid who sounds like them over a kid who looks like them. In other words, how they sound is more important than how they look. So we have these natural biases that are instinctive. Yeah. But knowing this having this awareness, we can do something with that. And also, it’s been proven that business people may perceive someone with an accent as being less savvy, less culturally savvy, right? But studies show that when an accented person speaks with confidence, that completely disappears, right? But the challenges with my clients is speaking with confidence. Because they’ll oftentimes they’ll Fear not saying something correctly and end up not speaking up. ANDREA: Or it could be for at least two reasons, right? It could be because in their culture, the ideal is to not speak with such outstanding confidence, you need to be a little bit more meek. It also could just be that as you said before, we are innately primed to seek similarity. Yeah, but but you know, I know that some of your work focuses on diversity and inclusion. And so if we know that we have this innate focus to seek similarity, we should be challenging ourselves to enlighten ourselves and part of diversity and inclusion. include people with other accents right? Full stop. JUDITH: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I worked Yeah, I worked with this is Eastern European woman. She was from Poland. And she came to me because she felt like she was being kind of socially isolated within her office was mainly women. It was American men. When she felt that she wasn’t being like she wasn’t being invited to lunch, along with honors, and jokes weren’t kind of shared, she just felt a sense of non belonging. And then when she came in, I discovered that she had kind of held back voice and her face did not move very much when she spoke. And it was a bit monotone. But what I discovered through talking with her was that she had a terrific sense of humor, she was funny. And what was puzzling, is that this company prided itself on diversity and inclusion, if they weren’t aware of the bias that they had for this woman’s voice. So I believe it’s a two way street goes, people shouldn’t be educated about bias and voice. And she wanted to adapt to her situation and circumstance. So we worked on, for example, bringing out her sense of humor, so that it translated with her voice. It just wasn’t translating. Again, speaking to the home field advantage, we all get to work at it. Yeah. So she actually enjoyed the process of finding these different ways of expressing herself. And she found it quite enjoyable. ANDREA: Sounds empowering. JUDITH: It is exactly. Some person Yes, this is my Polish self. This is my American self. This is my like when I you right? Right. And you can access different parts of your identity, it can be really illuminating and fascinating. ANDREA: Yeah, I can imagine working with you would be exactly that. very empowering and inspiring. And every time you’re talking about one of your clients, or, or perhaps a stereotype of someone you are taking on that persona, you I’m watching you on the screen, and I’m hearing your words and your tone. And you are an incredible actress Judy, you really? Yeah, it’s fun. It’s fun. It reminds me I read a book called how you say it by Katherine Kinsler. She’s a linguist, I believe, and she goes through a ton of research. It’s a very dense book, I loved it. But she talks about how a lot of what we think we’re perceiving with people consciously and non consciously is focused on appearance, you know, and then maybe where someone where someone is from, but we don’t really think about how are we gauging that and she said, The research shows that your voice and specifically your accent, people make judgments about you immediately and strong judgments, be they positive or negative about you based on your accent, right? JUDITH: Especially accents of people who have been marginalized and oppressed. We also have bias against with familiarity bias, familiarity breeds contempt. There’s quite a bit of truth to that, even with accents. And with women, I had a woman come in and she told me that a banker at her firm told her we don’t need sorority sisters working at the firm. And it was it’s the opposite of a supportive role model. Right? So it was it was but that’s what I don’t want to be I’m hearing in your voice when I maybe have part of his that is in me and that I don’t want to be and I resent you for it. And I’m gonna take it out on you. yeah, we feel our insecurities. And we hear and it’s, it’s reflected in another person who, but yeah, and it’s up and it’s not fair that certain accents are biased against more than others. Nothing in life is fair. Right? in every culture does it German hot northern German from southern New England, the Irish, they are the mack daddy. So with accent, right? It’s true. Voice It is like the smell for of animals for humans. ANDREA: Oh, I love that. I love that analogy. I love that analogy. So before we go on to the five rapid fire questions, Judy, I’d love to ask you how, regardless of what our voice is, what our accent is, how can we look after our voice? So I’m thinking about so if I’m about to turn my mic on for recording a podcast, or if I’m about to give a speech, or I’m about to give a presentation in a big meeting? What should I do in the short term, but then also, what habits can I adopt to optimize the sound of my voice throughout my life? JUDITH: One thing we talked about breath, even when you’re not speaking, be mindful of your breath. You go into a meeting, pay attention, if you’re holding your breath, breathe. Because when you go to speak, if you sound like you’ve been holding your breath, you’re going to sound rushed. ANDREA: And I also noticed, just as I was asking that question, you took a sip of water. Is it true that taking a sip of water will make your voice sound better? JUDITH: Well the vocal folds need to stay hydrated. Absolutely. It’s important to drink water. And for vocal hygiene, we don’t push the voice. I worked with a Coxon once who she was used to pushing her voice. So that’s vocal abuse and you do that enough. You’re going to damage your voice. ANDREA: I’m guessing the same for Vocal Fry? JUDITH: vocal fry isn’t necessarily abusive to the vocal folds. Oh, Yeah, it just doesn’t sound good. It sounds like you’re dis engaged from your breath. And it’s also frequently just associated with an adolescent sound. So nothing to for your credibility. Before you get on a meeting, I work with clients who may be sitting at their computer for hours on end, and then have a call or a meeting and find themselves needing to kind of find their voice and the first five or 10 minutes of the meeting, what they should do is do some work ahead of time before you get on the call. Jump around the room. Oh, sing around, leap around, do some trills, get your voice warmed up, so that when you get on that call, you’re running on all four cylinders. And you don’t have to spend the first five minutes warming up right ANDREA: it’s almost like you’ve got momentum. JUDITH: Yes. Right. You know, and with Amy Cuddy, you know, with the power poses, well add that tenfold, you have the power poses, you’re connecting vibration to your body, you’re letting your sound out, oh, I’m the queen, you dance around. And oh my gosh, what you’ve just done with your voice and preparing you for this meeting is it’s better than taking a pill. ANDREA: Amazing. I love that. So so And what about making our voice last for our lifetime? Is there anything that people do? You know, I’m thinking also of singers or people that do a lot of public speaking. So how do they look after their voice in the longer term, JUDITH: there are days when I speak all day long. And I’m my voice never gets tired or rough really, because I’m, I know how to use it. If you are using your voice in a helpful way, it will last you a lifetime. If you’re not pushing or straining, okay. And oftentimes people don’t know they’re clamping down on their phone, the muscles around their vocal folds and creating strain, or a lot of throat clearing. That over time can affect voice over it. Interestingly, men’s voices tend to get higher as they get older, and women’s tend to deepen. Yeah, but that’s aside from quality, the clearness and the lack of noise and your breath should be fine as you age. I can speak all day, with this gentle bringing together my vocal folds, because I’m using my breath efficiently and effectively. No problemo, I’m nonstop. ANDREA: I feel like it’s all about the breath. JUDITH: If there’s one thing it’s like tension and tension and space, making ourselves big, not small, making ourselves relaxed, not tense, and yes, connected to our brand. ANDREA: Amazing that is going to definitely end up in the show notes. Okay, let’s move on then to the five rapid fire questions. Are you ready? JUDITH: Ready ANDREA: Question one. What are your pet peeves? JUDITH: Okay, well, I live in Manhattan in New York City. And one of my pet peeves is when people walk on the left side of the sidewalk. That drives me crazy. I like to order another pet peeve. And I hope you don’t think that sounds snobby. But because I’m really not a snob, this issue with pronouns with is for Sheila and I, and so little in me that drives me bonkers. And Robert and myself are planning a party. Oh, Robert and I are planning a party. ANDREA: I share that one with you, Judy. I actually tell my kids take the other person out of the sentence. Imagine this shoe and how would you say it now add that back in? You’re good. That’s not a big deal. JUDITH: It just drives me nuts. And another one. Not to get gross but i think is my pet peeve is when women pee on the seat. You know, it’s mind boggling. I go to the Met. I go to the to museum and it drives me crazy. I don’t get it. I might want to edit that one out. Andrea. It’s a pet peeve. It really was one of the first things that came to my mind. ANDREA: it’s staying. That’s hilarious. Okay, second question. What type of learner are you JUDITH: a kinesthetic, really, ANDREA: I thought you would say auditory? JUDITH: Well, I can hear something. But if it’s taught to me in a voice, I don’t connect to or I don’t find engaging, I’ll tune out. But when I have to do something, and I go through the motions, and I noticed all the issues that arise when I’m doing this that I wouldn’t know about if I just heard about or watched I Oh, okay, I feel it. I’m aware of these very subtle movements or our thoughts and ANDREA: you are a natural actress. As you’re answering the question your body is, is communicating the answer. It’s amazing. Okay. I told you. I’m convinced. Okay, question number three, introvert or extrovert. JUDITH: I am I believe I have both of those in my personality like most people, but I do believe I have a bit more of the extreme versions of those through school. I think I went through my kindergarten year not saying a word. So I yeah, I’m naturally very quiet person and a listener and observer. But I also have a very strong part of my personality. That is entertaining. I like to, and I like, I like to be president and kind of, so I finding the balance between those is the challenge for me in everyday life. ANDREA: I can see that I can see that OK. What is your communication preference for personal conversations? JUDITH: Yeah, I text, but I don’t like texting, typing and I think I record my message on text. I looked it for editing and I send it because so yeah, because it is just the quickest, most efficient. ANDREA: Yeah, I do that when I’m in the car and I say please blame Siri for typos. OK, last question. Is there a podcast, blog or an email newsletter that you find yourself recommending lately? JUDITH: Yours. And I look at your summary notes that are just so well done and so painstakingly clear. It’s just really, really well done. I gotta lot from it. Another one is that I love John Mcwhorter’s podcast Lexicon Valley. John Mcwhorter talks about linguistics and how language changes, overtime and cultural differences, and he’s also a lover of music, and he incorporates musical interludes and personal anecdotes include related to the topic, and is just terrific. I love it lazy, another woman who I really discovered through LinkedIn and her name is Elena Preslova. She’s an organizational psychologist, but she talks about these very complex issues in such an accessible way from my voice of kindness. Just love her. She reminds me of my mom. ANDREA: Oh that’s so mice., OK, I will leave links to that podcast and the organizational psychologist in the show notes. Before we finish I wanna ask is there anything else you want to share with the listeners about how we use our voice? JUDITH: Well I would say our voices are so much more flexible and valuable than most people think or understand. The voice is a vehicle for exploring who you are and learning more about who you are and the various ways that you can express yourself. ANDREA: Thank you so much Judy. Your message is empowering, inspiring and I really learned a lot. Thank you so much. JUDITH: Thank you, it was my pleasure. I really enjoyed it.   ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #89 Using Your VOICE with Judith Weinman appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you want to be a better listener? Yes, you can learn to listen! Learn tactical strategies to help you become a better listener, reasons why listening is so difficult, and the 3 levels of listening. RESOURCES   LISTENING Podcast Episodes LISTENING with legal veteran Norm Bacal Communication Skills of Effective Leaders with Heather Stark Am I an Introvert or an Extrovert?  Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20min consult – Book Andrea LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk. The post #88 The Power of LISTENING appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How to introduce others: The do’s & don’ts of formally introducing a speaker or a guest, plus how to introduce or connect two people. RESOURCES   Dr. Andrea Wojnicki & Talk About Talk Episode 86 – INTRODUCTIONS – How to Introduce Yourself Website – https://talkabouttalk.com Free Newsletter – https://talkabouttalk.com/blog/#newsletter-signup Email – Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com Free 20minconsult – Book Andrea  LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Image: Unsplash @ krispaparo THANKS for READING – and Talk soon! LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ Web:            https://talkabouttalk.com/ Email: Andrea@TalkAboutTalk.com ***When referencing resources and products, TalkAboutTalk sometimes uses affiliate links. These links don’t impose any extra cost on you, and they help support the free content provided by Talk About Talk.   The post #87 INTRODUCTIONS: How to Introduce & Connect Others appeared first on Talk About Talk.