BRAVE Southeast Asia Tech: Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand & Malaysia Startups, Founders & Venture Capital VC (English)

Rob Snyder, Founder of Reframe and a McKinsey alum with an MBA from Harvard, shares his compelling journey from consultancy to entrepreneurship. He delves into his two-year quest for product-market fit, revealing how direct customer feedback transformed his business model and skyrocketed revenue. Snyder discusses overcoming psychological barriers, the need for rapid growth in startups, and the resilience required in this high-stakes environment. He reflects on how family influences shaped his entrepreneurial drive and the importance of continuous learning through failure.

Serena Lam, CEO & Founder of Fuzzy Sequence, and Jeremy Au discussed: 1. IBM to SaaS Founder: Serena described her seven-year tenure at IBM, where she tackled diverse strategic roles across the U.S., China, and India. This experience provided her with a robust foundation in technology and business strategy, crucial for her later ventures. She emphasized the comfort and security of a well-structured corporate environment, noting how it fostered her ability to save and enjoy a reliable income, which contrasted with the uncertainties of startup life. 2. Sales Automation Consequences: She elaborated on the creation of Fuzzy Sequence, a sales AI platform that integrates multiple tools to optimize sales processes. She highlighted how her own frustrations with booking meetings and enhancing sales productivity led her to develop a solution that now facilitates these tasks for other sales professionals. The platform automates and personalizes client interactions, which optimizes sales strategies and enhances meeting bookings. She discussed the complexities of scaling startups from small teams to larger operations, and elaborated on the need for adaptive leadership as startups grow 3. Vietnam Refugee Inspiration: Reflecting on her family's history, Serena recounted her grandparents' and parents' escapes from China and Vietnam. These experiences of survival and new beginnings in the face of adversity instilled in her the values of courage and resilience. These personal stories are also a continuous source of inspiration, driving her perseverance in the face of business challenges. Jeremy and Serena also explored the implications of AI in sales, the necessity of authenticity in customer relations, and the integration of technology in traditional business environments. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/serena-lam Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/serena-lam-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/serena-lam-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/serena-lam-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Jianggan Li, Founder & CEO of Momentum Works, and Jeremy Au discussed: 1. Black Myth Wukong $1B AAA Game: Jianggan and Jeremy examined the reinterpretation of 'Journey to the West' in the gaming blockbuster 'Black Myth: Wukong'. The developers overcame huge skepticism, incorporated complex cultural narratives into gameplay and overcame technical challenges to balance traditional storytelling with modern gaming technology. They also discussed the parallels with Indian and Southeast Asia mythology. 2. $86B Tencent Publisher (League of Legends, SEA Group & VNG): Tencent owns League of Legends (Riot Games), PUBG Mobile, Arena of Valor, as well as WeChat. They also inspired and invested in the game, chat, ecommerce & payments structure of Sea Group (Shopee, Garena Free Fire) and Vietnam’s VNG (Zalo, Zalopay). 3. Real Estate Bubble Burst: They analyzed the causes of property price inflation and subsequent market corrections with Evergrande & Country Garden debt. The confidence crisis has had ripple effects into the consumer and adjacent markets, spurring outflows of talent, capital and companies. They also discussed the importance of cultural understanding in global business strategies, how multinational companies leverage local consumer insights, and the complexities of managing large-scale economic shifts in the Southeast Asia tech scene. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/wukong-aaa-game Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/wukong-aaa-game-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/wukong-aaa-game-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/wukong-aaa-game-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Jesse Choi, Cofounder of Reku, and Jeremy Au discussed: 1. Bain Capital & Stanford MBA: Jesse shared his journey from an operations research and economics student at Columbia University to an early career at Bain management consulting and Bain Capital private equity. His Stanford MBA experience also expanded his professional network, deepened his analytical skills and broadened his career horizons. 2. Moving To Indonesia For Love: Jesse articulated his decision-making process behind relocating to Indonesia for the love of his life. His methodical approach to life's risks and opportunities focused on his assessment of Southeast Asia's potential, his professional strengths and long-term personal goals. 3. Founding Reku Investment Platform: Jesse recognizing the growth potential within Indonesia and founded Reku, an investment platform initially centered on cryptocurrency. He strategically broadened Reku's offerings to include US public equities to enhance accessibility, diversify investment options and tap new opportunities for Indonesian investors. They also touched on the leadership and entrepreneurship courses at Stanford's MBA program, personal philosophy on life, and how he assessed risk in shifting geographies, industries and roles. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/jesse-choi Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/jesse-choi-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/jesse-choi-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/jesse-choi-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyau Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Raditya (Dito) Wibowo, CEO & Founder of MAKA Motors, and Jeremy Au discussed: 1. Gojek Chief Transportation Officer: Raditya describes his seven-year tenure rise from managing a nascent on-demand transportation service from the modest two-story home HQ with only 2 toilets to becoming Chief Transport Officer. Developing Gojek's first dynamic pricing algorithm was key to beating competition from traditional and emerging tech players. His strategic thinking was pivotal in navigating these emerging problems, including how to navigate the demand vs. supply aspects of Ramadan. 2. Founder MAKA Motors: Dito shared how he founded an electric motorcycle startup nd the transition challenges from software to hardware. He detailed the design principles tailored to meet Indonesian market demands and consumer behaviors. Strategic decisions include customer personas, in-house R&D vs. outsourcing and managing component assembly logistics. His industrial engineering background has also influenced his approach to solving complex problems at the company. 3. How Hard Can It Be?: The phrase "How hard can it be?" encapsulates his entrepreneurial spirit, strategic planning and resilience. He shares how his early consulting experiences at McKinsey shaped his later thinking, as well as how he has had to think on his feet to overcome multiple startup challenges. Jeremy and Dito also explored the importance of adapting business models to changing market conditions, continuous learning for consumer needs, and the personal commitment to become comfortable with uncertainty. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/raditya-wibowo Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/raditya-wibowo-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/raditya-wibowo-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/raditya-wibowo-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Valerie Vu, Founding Partner of Ansible Ventures, and Jeremy Au discussed: 1. New President Tô Lâm: The death and state-mandated mourning period for Vietnam's former Communist Party General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong culminated in the swift elevation of Tô Lâm from the Ministry of Public Defense to President. This transition exhibited the controlled and planned nature of political leadership where political changes are orchestrated to ensure continuity and stability within the government. 2. Immediate China State Visit: Tô Lâm's chose his first official international visit to be China, where he and his delegation signed 16 key agreements spanning commerce and logistics. Vietnam's strategic "bamboo" diplomatic posture aims to strengthen ties with China amidst regional geopolitical tensions. The agreements also reflect a deepening of ties in areas critical to Vietnam’s economic and infrastructural development. 3. USA Rejection "Non-Market Economy": The U.S. Commerce Department disappointed Hanoi by continuing to classify Vietnam as a non-market economy country subject to punitive anti-dumping duties. Only 12 other economies are labeled as non-market by Washington, including China, Russia, North Korea and Azerbaijan. This status hampers Vietnam’s ability to absorb foreign direct investment and engage fully in international trade, especially with its largest trading partner, the U.S. They also discussed local cultural influences on business practices, regional infrastructure developments and the relocation of manufacturing from China and other countries to Vietnam. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/vietnam-new-president2 Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/vietnam-new-president2-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/vietnam-new-president2-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/vietnam-new-president2-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Avik Ashar, Principal at Artha Venture Fund, and Jeremy Au discussed: 1. Zilingo Ethical Dilemmas: Avik reflected on his experiences at Zilingo where rapid expansion led to questionable practices such as buying and selling Apple watches on their fashion lifestyle platform just to meet monthly sales targets, in order to achieve founder and board expectations of non-stop growth. He warned that crossing ethical lines for short-term gains, like funding or fame, is difficult to reverse over the medium term. Adhering to ethical standards is key to decisions that might push the boundaries of integrity, with the option of walking away from the job. 2. India vs. Southeast Asia Startups: Avik explained the similarities and differences between Southeast Asia and India, particularly the diverse and non-homogeneous nature of the two. In Southeast Asia, the cultural diversity within countries like Thailand and Indonesia requires tailored management strategies for each locale, much like in India where the cultural landscape changes dramatically over short distances. A deep understanding of local nuances is crucial for effective business operations. With examples from his management experience, he noted the distinct approaches needed in cities like Bangkok versus rural Thailand, and the cultural shifts encountered when traveling from metropolitan centers like Mumbai to smaller towns within India. 3. Market & Consumer Diversity: Avik explored the complexities of the Indian market, the stark economic disparities and varied consumer behaviors. He described the high spending power of urban elites compared to the rising middle class’s evolving consumer expectations. He also discussed the integration of technology in traditional sectors like textile manufacturing, and the transformative impact of digitization on industries traditionally lacking in infrastructure and capital expenditure. They also covered the critical importance of stringent due diligence in financial dealings, especially in emerging markets like India, the nuances of ethical leadership within rapidly scaling startups and socio-economic stratification with distinct spending behaviors in India. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/avik-ashar Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/avik-ashar-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/avik-ashar-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/avik-ashar-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Huiting Koh, Founding Managing Partner of Blueprint Ventures, and Jeremy Au discussed: 1. Solo General Partner (GP) Experience: Huiting discussed her journey as a solo GP, emphasizing the complexities of establishing Blueprint, her venture fund. She shared insights into the initial setup, overcoming challenges, and the decision-making processes involved. She also highlighted the critical learning curve she navigated, making strategic choices without complete information and trusting her instincts. 2. Gen Z vs. Generation Alpha: They analyzed evolving consumer behaviors and expectations, especially how these demographics are shaping consumer technology. They also underlined how the youngest cohorts are accustomed to artificial intelligence and digital interfaces from an early age. This also differs by country within Southeast Asia, for example, the unexpected discovery that the majority of users for an English learning platform in Vietnam were women (rather than men) across all job levels, with distinct referral patterns, 3. Blueprint's Distinctive Strategy: Huiting articulated what sets Blueprint apart: consumer-focused investment mandate, targeted Asa verticals, and robust consumer behavioral analysis. She elaborated on the fund’s approach to creating value by placing human-centric insights at the forefront of investment decisions while aiming for substantial social impact alongside financial returns. Huiting illustrated how to find sticky and impactful solutions across multiple markets. Jeremy and Huiting also talked about the influence of digital technologies on cognitive and social skills among children, the evolving definition of digital natives, and the importance of understanding gender-specific consumer behaviors. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/huiting-koh-2 Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/huiting-koh-2-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/huiting-koh-2-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/huiting-koh-2-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Shiyan Koh, Managing Partner of  Hustle Fund, and ​​Jeremy Au talked about three main points: 1. Disney+ Arbitration PR Crisis: A woman died from an allergic reaction after eating at a Disney-affiliated restaurant. The husband sued Disney for "wrongful death" and $50,000+ of damages. Disney in May 2024 alleged that the husband accepted a forced arbitration agreement when signing up for Disney Plus in 2019. This caused a firestorm of public criticism about the company's accountability. The hosts discuss the broader implications of such legal strategies on public trust and branding, and Disney's withdrawal of this legal case serves as a cautionary tale about balancing tactical legal defenses with keeping a broader strategic eye. 2. Good vs. Bad Startup Sci-Fi Ideas: Shiyan stressed the importance of personal dedication to a business idea, given the substantial time commitment involved. They also explored how sci-fi plays a role with simultaneous innovation, the concept of "founder-problem fit" and the critical need to align personal interests with the entrepreneurial venture. They also discussed the suitability of ideas for venture capital investment, distinguishing between good business ideas and those that are venture-backable. 3. Defence Tech Rise: Jeremy discussed the role of startups like Anduril and Palantir in transforming defense technologies. YC-backed startup Ares Industries is producing cruise missiles that are 10X cheaper and more effective than existing models. Private sector innovation is increasingly crucial to government budgets looking to buy large volumes more cost-effectively. Jeremy and Shiyan also touched on topics like longevity and sleep quality, biohacking amongst tech enthusiasts, and the importance of market validation. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/good-vs-bad-startup-ideas Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/good-vs-bad-startup-ideas-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/good-vs-bad-startup-ideas-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/good-vs-bad-startup-ideas-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Vietnamese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.

Jingjing Zhong, CEO & Cofounder of Superbench, and Jeremy Au talked about three main themes: 1. UC Berkeley to Investment Banking: Jingjing reflected on her time at UC Berkeley where the competitive environment introduced her to the high-stakes world of investment banking. She shared her initial motivation for joining Houlihan Lokey, which was to make money (influenced by societal expectations from her upbringing in China). Her experience in the financial sector led to a significant reevaluation of her definition of success and steered her away from banking despite its financial allure. 2. General Manager Firefighting: Jingjing’s entrance to high-growth startup Helpling and eventual promotion to General Manager brought immediate challenges of operational management without initial support (a sharp contrast with the structured world of finance). She navigated intense periods of firefighting and strategic planning and learned to balance immediate problem-solving with long-term strategic thinking. Her experiences emphasized the importance of adapting to market and consumer trends and the transformative impact of effective coaching on her leadership skills. 3. Superbench Services AI Founder: Jingjing leveraged her experiences to cofound Superbench, an AI-driven platform aimed at optimizing operations for home service businesses. She detailed the transition from manual operations to AI-enhanced processes, which significantly improved sales conversions and operational efficiency. She discusses the nuanced applications of AI, where it complements human effort rather than replacing it, along with the practical benefits and challenges of integrating advanced technologies in traditional SME clients. Jeremy and Jingjing also talked about Jingjing’s cultural adjustments when she moved from USA to Singapore, the critical role of mentorship, and the role of data in strategic decision-making within service businesses. Watch, listen or read the full insight at https://www.bravesea.com/blog/jingjing-zhong Nonton, dengar atau baca wawasan lengkapnya di https://www.bravesea.com/jingjing-zhong-id 观看、收听或阅读全文，请访问 https://www.bravesea.com/blog/jingjing-zhong-cn Xem, nghe hoặc đọc toàn bộ thông tin chi tiết tại https://www.bravesea.com/blog/jingjing-zhong-vn Get transcripts, startup resources & community discussions at www.bravesea.com WhatsApp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VakR55X6BIElUEvkN02e TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@jeremyau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jeremyauz Twitter: https://twitter.com/jeremyau LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bravesea English: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Bahasa Indonesia: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Chinese: Spotify | YouTube | Apple Podcasts Join us at Geeks on a Beach! Use the code "BRAVESEA" for a 45% discount for the first 10 registrations, and 35% off for the next ones.