Cross & Gavel Podcast

Happy New Years!  To start off the year right, I wanted to go back to basics: faith through lawyering. My guest is Randy Lee, a veteran in the field, writing on the topic of the Christian lawyer for over three decades. His insights can be found within a body of work (see links here), but the paper we mostly focused on (here) was a book review he did on Joseph G. Allegretti's The Lawyer's Calling: Christian Faith and Legal Practice. Randy teaches constitutional law, professional responsibility, torts and various writing and advocacy courses. Professor Lee has taught previously at the Villanova and University of Pittsburgh Law Schools and in the Harvard University Summer Program.  NOTE: This episode pairs well with the one featuring Jeff Ventrella on his experiences as a man of faith in big law (here). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In the last few weeks, there has been two excellent podcasts that showcase the depths of what legal learning could provide. In the first, a conversation (here) about the history and framework for the federal constitution, taught largely from an incredible five volume work entitled The Founders’ Constitution. The second comes from our friends at the Mattone Center for Law and Religion (here), featuring two Fordham law professors who have launched a forum for law students looking to discuss C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. Fortuitous as it is, we have supplemented on this Christmas Day with a third dimension of legal education, which is the question of access to justice and the role of lawyers in improving the lives of their neighbors. My guest is Kevin T. Frazier, who has written an excellent, short piece for the Federalist Society (here) entitled Artificial Intelligence Can Improve Access to Justice, But the Legal Profession Has a Role to Play. Kevin and I talk about a number of things, including what access to justice means, what are legal deserts, why representation is so important, the various digital tools already out there, and more. Kevin joined St. Thomas University Benjamin L. Crump College of Law as an Assistant Professor of Law in 2023. He teaches administrative law, constitutional law, and civil procedure. Prior to joining STU Law, he served as a Judicial Clerk on the Montana Supreme Court and conducted research on regulating AI as a Research Fellow with the Legal Priorities Project. As of September 2024, he became a Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin. Faculty page here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In this special end of the semester episode, I get to talk to two amazing black Christian women about their experiences in law school. And not just in law school, but also the entire process surrounding getting in and getting out. The book at the heart of this discussion is from Jeanelle Angus entitled Unveiling Strength and Faith: The Diary of a Black Christian Female Law Student. As part of this conversation, we talk about the path of “most” resistance in getting to law school, what it was like realizing their minority status once there, the pressure of having to represent for their communities, various ways they overcame struggles, and much more. My first guest is Jeanelle C. Angus, a law student at the University of New Hampshire Franklin Pierce School of Law, graduating in May 2025. My second guest is attorney Lakuita Bittle, who attended the UDC David A. Clarke School of Law in Washington, D.C. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

This week, we continue our conversation on mental health and the various reasons why law students don’t get the help they need. My guest is Amy Levin—someone who not only understands the legal profession but has also spent much time studying mental health. Amy has written a new paper entitled The Kids Aren’t Alright, in which she discusses the decline in law student mental health and encourages law schools to take steps to normalize mental well-being and to support students in seeking help. In our discussion, we focus on common stressors, which students struggle the most, why other professions seem to be doing better, and how law students can improve their own mental health. Amy is a Clinical Professor of Law at LMU Loyola Law School, Los Angeles. She graduated from the UCLA School of Law, Program in Public Interest Law and Policy, and the Department of Social Welfare, where she earned a JD/MSW. Amy also worked for ten years at Arnold & Porter as a litigation attorney and clerked for the Honorable Richard A. Paez of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. Faculty bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento. NOTE: In an effort to help normalize the conversation surrounding mental health, CLS launched the Wellness Program as part of Law Student Ministries. We hope to provide you not only training and support, but also forums where these topics can be discussed and destigmatized. Our first three conversations can be found here (w/ Dr. Tina Armstrong on healthy leadership), here (w/ Ruth Haley Barton on daily rhythms), and here (w/ Dr. Barbara L. Peacock on soul care).

It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together. Our first episode was with Ruth Haley Barton on Establishing Rhythms & Abiding in God (here). This week, we are joined by Dr. Barbara L. Peacock to talk about spiritual disciplines as soul care. Dr. Peacock is the author of the award-winning book Soul Care in African American Practice (book + workbook). Her newest book is Spiritual Practices for Soul Care 40 Ways to Deepen your Faith (buy). She is passionate about the disciplines of prayer, spiritual direction (soul care), lectio, and visio divina. In 2013 she founded Barbara L. Peacock Ministries. This ministry is committed to providing safe spaces for encounters with God. She founded Peacock Soul Care, whose mission is focused on nurturing souls, educating minds, and cultivating spirituality through soul care and spiritual experiences. Her personal website is here. Her ministry website is here. Music Credit(s): Tokyo Music Walker & Rexlambo.

This week, I talk to Lael Weinberger about the doctrine of church autonomy—what it is and, more importantly, where it came from. Lael has written an excellent paper on the origins of church autonomy (here), as well as put to practice his musings in a recent amicus brief he filed in the D.C. Circuit in the case of O’Connell v. United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (here). After we spent some time digging into Lael’s past, we got to business discussing his paper and brief. Some of the topics we discussed included the definition and scope of church autonomy, the jurisdictional nature of this topic as it relates to the state and the church, the history of its development in the 19th century, and much more. Lael Weinberger is an attorney and legal scholar. He currently works of Gibson Dunn in Washington, D.C. (bio), and serves as a nonresident fellow at Stanford Law (bio). In the past, he clerked for Justice Neil Gorsuch on the United States Supreme Court, Judge Frank Easterbrook on the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, and Chief Justice Daniel Eismann on the Idaho Supreme Court. He earned a law degree with high honors from the University of Chicago Law School. He also holds a PhD in history from the University of Chicago, with a focus on American legal history. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

This week, we are joined once more by our friend and comparative constitutional law expert from the mean streets of Padua—Andrea Pin. We discuss his brand new book from Brill entitled, Religious Freedom without the Rule of Law: The Constitutional Odysseys of Afghanistan, Egypt, and Iraq and the Fate of the Middle East (here). Whereby last time we spoke about the development of religious freedom jurisprudence in Europe (listen here), this time we venture into the Islamic world by considering the rule of law and its implications in Afghanistan, Egypt, and Iraq. I ask him about the meaning of “rule of law” and whether it remains a purely Western convention. I ask about the role of community life in his focused regions as it relates to the ways they negotiate legal disputes and tribal tensions. I ask about the role of religious conversion and what happens after. And much more. Andrea Pin is the Associate Professor of Comparative Public Law at the University of Padova Law School and a senior fellow in the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University. Full bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

This week, we have a special guest from the University of Florida Levin College of Law—Christopher D. Hampson. Our topic is a good one: the cancellation of debt. To that end, Chris and I discussed his forthcoming article tentatively entitled Law and the Jubilee Tradition. Some of the things we spoke about was the jubilee tradition in the Old Testament text, the many ways that tradition connects with the history of American society, his approach based on a Rawlsian ideal of practical reason, principle of equality undergirding his project, and more. Chris is a scholar of bankruptcy, insolvency, and the ethics of debt. His research focuses on how legal institutions can best serve our shared values during times of financial distress. Chris served as a law clerk for Judge Richard A. Posner on the Seventh Circuit in Chicago and practiced law at a number of promient law firms in Miami and Boston. Full bio and CV here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

This week, we have a special episode with a return guest of mine—Nicholas Aroney, who recently delivered the Sir John Graham Lecture in New Zealand. You can listen to that here or read it here. Nick and I talk about this lecture, entitled The Compass of Character, delving into questions relating to the definition of good character, the role that catastrophes play in bringing out an individual's true self, the limits of law and education for the inculcation of good character, and the role of religion in helping bridge the gap. Nicholas Aroney is Professor of Constitutional Law at The University of Queensland, Director (Public Law) of the Centre for Public, International and Comparative Law and a Senior Fellow of the Centre for Law and Religion at Emory University. As mentioned in our conversation, he has also edited an impressive volume entitled, Christianity and Constitutionalism—this is well worth the money! Faculty bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In this episode, I talk about a new book that models the ten habits that any peacemaker should adopt. The author is Steven T. Collis and the book is Ten Habits of a Peacemaker. For those wondering how this book compares to the work of Ken Sande’s The Peacemaker, the two are excellent companions. While Ken’s is more theological (LISTEN), Steven’s project looks at the process and psychological challenges of creating a space for constructive dialogue and common life. To that end, him and I spoke about the importance of habit formation, the challenges of navigating perception, the psychology underlying group-think, the various steps that an individual can take to develop the heart of a peacemaker, and much more. Steven researches and teaches on religion law, productive discourse, and other First Amendment topics at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law. He is the founding faculty director of the Bech-Loughlin First Amendment Center and its Law & Religion Clinic. Before joining Texas Law, he was a Research Fellow in the Constitutional Law Center at Stanford Law School. Faculty bio. My first conversation with Steven can be found here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.