Cross & Gavel Podcast

The John Witte, Jr. Lecture Series on Christianity & Law is back! A new venture from Christian Legal Society aimed at advancing the conversation surrounding the integration of Christianity & law. In our second lecture inspired by the American 19th century painters, we go international and ask what contributions Christianity made to advancing human rights. Our keynote is Kristina Arriaga, who digs deep into her Cuban heritage to bring us a fascinating lecture on the Christian jurists who paved the way for our modern rights framework. She was joined by Justice Jamie R. Grosshans (Florida Supreme Court) for a period of Q&A after the lecture.  For more on Kristina's work, see here. If you would like to hear the introductions by Anton Sorkin and John Witte, Jr., and the Q&A with Justice Jamies R. Grosshans, check out the full version here. SPONSOR: The Witte Lectures are sponsored by TRINITY LAW SCHOOL. SOUND: Special thanks to Josh Deng for his technical support in getting this audio ready.  MUSIC: Prelude No. 2 by Chris Zabriskie. SPECIAL THANKS to Stephanie Barclay for writing a wonderful biogrpahy for Kristina in the Program.

Today, a sharply divided Supreme Court reinstated a lower-court order for the Trump administration to release frozen foreign aid. In this episode, I talk with Matthew Soerens of World Relief about some of the recent executive orders and how marginalized voices can help restore the American church in its places of prominence. Matt began his World Relief journey in 2005 as an intern in Nicaragua. Since then he served as a Department of Justice-accredited legal counselor in Chicagoland before assuming the role of U.S. Director of Church Mobilization and Advocacy. He is the co-author of three books including  Welcoming the Stranger (InterVarsity Press, 2018) and Inalienable (InterVarsity Press, 2022). He is a graduate of Wheaton College, where he has also served as a guest faculty member in the Humanitarian & Disaster Leadership program, and earned a master’s degree from DePaul University’s School of Public Service.  Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

Today we delve into the world of Title VII by looking at the pending case in Carter v. Transp. Workers Union of Am. Local 556. The focus of our discussion will be on the paper from Blaine Hutchison in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, entitled Title VII’s Religious Liberty Rules in Carter (here). Blaine is joined by one of the premier experts in the field of employment law and also my old professor, Bruce Cameron. As part of this conversation, we lay out some history for Religious Accommodation claims, the importance of protecting the conscience, the freewheelin’ accommodation claim (for more, see this), the background in Carter, and more. Professor Bruce Cameron (profile) teaches employment discrimination law at Regent University School of Law and has been litigating religious accommodation cases for the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation for four decades. Blaine Hutchinson (profile) is a staff attorney with the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

Many people hate the tax system. It is perhaps the one universal solvent that can bring people together. In this episode, I discuss the income tax system and whether it can actually produce a more equitable society. My guest is Andrew Hayashi, whose paper we discuss is entitled Christianity and the Liberal(ish) Income Tax and was printed in the Notre Dame Journal of Law, Ethics, & Public Policy. We discuss some basics of income tax, the Christian critics of liberalism, whether the tax system is in fact liberal, what it can do to achieve the common good, and must more. Andrew is an expert in tax law, tax policy and behavioral law and economics. He joined the University of Virginia School of Law's faculty in July 2013. He is a McDonald Distinguished Fellow at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University. Prior to joining the Law School, he was the Nourallah Elghanayan Research Fellow at the Furman Center for Real Estate and Urban Policy at New York University, where his research focused on the effects of tax policy on real estate and housing markets. Before joining the Furman Center, he practiced tax law as an associate at Davis Polk & Wardwell. Faculty profile here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together. Our first episode was with Ruth Haley Barton on Establishing Rhythms & Abiding in God (here). Our second was with Dr. Barbara L. Peacock on developing spiritual disciplines for soul care (here). On this episode, we are joined by Starr Tomczak to discuss her brand new book called Living Well: Inspired by the Story behind the Bible. Starr not only went to law school and had a succesful law practice as a corporate lawyer, but she also felt the calling to enter seminary and eventually write this book. She has a BA from Carleton College, a JD from New York University Law School, and an MDiv from Union Theological Seminary in New York City. Check out her website here. Music Credit(s): Tokyo Music Walker & Rexlambo.

Many people use the language of "calling" without considering the scope and duration of that word and what it really means to align one’s gifts with community need. In this episode, I get to explore some of these issues with Steven Zhou, a postdoc researcher on the meaning of calling and the author of a Christianity Today piece entitled Calling Is More Than Your Job. Steven and I delve deep into the sociological understanding of calling, what it means to align skills with need, to what extent pride and perserverance play a role in self-understanding, and more. At the heart of our conversation is this academic study. Steven completed his Ph.D. in Industrial & Organizational Psychology from George Mason University, studying under Dr. Stephen Zaccaro and Dr. Philseok Lee. He previously received a B.A. in Industrial & Organizational Psychology and M.A. in Religion from Pepperdine University. He also has four years of full-time applied work experience in human resources, data analytics, and non-profit management along with consulting experience in leadership development and data analysis. Full bio here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

Happy New Years!  To start off the year right, I wanted to go back to basics: faith through lawyering. My guest is Randy Lee, a veteran in the field, writing on the topic of the Christian lawyer for over three decades. His insights can be found within a body of work (see links here), but the paper we mostly focused on (here) was a book review he did on Joseph G. Allegretti's The Lawyer's Calling: Christian Faith and Legal Practice. Randy teaches constitutional law, professional responsibility, torts and various writing and advocacy courses. Professor Lee has taught previously at the Villanova and University of Pittsburgh Law Schools and in the Harvard University Summer Program.  NOTE: This episode pairs well with the one featuring Jeff Ventrella on his experiences as a man of faith in big law (here). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In the last few weeks, there has been two excellent podcasts that showcase the depths of what legal learning could provide. In the first, a conversation (here) about the history and framework for the federal constitution, taught largely from an incredible five volume work entitled The Founders’ Constitution. The second comes from our friends at the Mattone Center for Law and Religion (here), featuring two Fordham law professors who have launched a forum for law students looking to discuss C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity. Fortuitous as it is, we have supplemented on this Christmas Day with a third dimension of legal education, which is the question of access to justice and the role of lawyers in improving the lives of their neighbors. My guest is Kevin T. Frazier, who has written an excellent, short piece for the Federalist Society (here) entitled Artificial Intelligence Can Improve Access to Justice, But the Legal Profession Has a Role to Play. Kevin and I talk about a number of things, including what access to justice means, what are legal deserts, why representation is so important, the various digital tools already out there, and more. Kevin joined St. Thomas University Benjamin L. Crump College of Law as an Assistant Professor of Law in 2023. He teaches administrative law, constitutional law, and civil procedure. Prior to joining STU Law, he served as a Judicial Clerk on the Montana Supreme Court and conducted research on regulating AI as a Research Fellow with the Legal Priorities Project. As of September 2024, he became a Senior Research Fellow in the Constitutional Studies Program at the University of Texas at Austin. Faculty page here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In this special end of the semester episode, I get to talk to two amazing black Christian women about their experiences in law school. And not just in law school, but also the entire process surrounding getting in and getting out. The book at the heart of this discussion is from Jeanelle Angus entitled Unveiling Strength and Faith: The Diary of a Black Christian Female Law Student. As part of this conversation, we talk about the path of “most” resistance in getting to law school, what it was like realizing their minority status once there, the pressure of having to represent for their communities, various ways they overcame struggles, and much more. My first guest is Jeanelle C. Angus, a law student at the University of New Hampshire Franklin Pierce School of Law, graduating in May 2025. My second guest is attorney Lakuita Bittle, who attended the UDC David A. Clarke School of Law in Washington, D.C. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

This week, we continue our conversation on mental health and the various reasons why law students don’t get the help they need. My guest is Amy Levin—someone who not only understands the legal profession but has also spent much time studying mental health. Amy has written a new paper entitled The Kids Aren’t Alright, in which she discusses the decline in law student mental health and encourages law schools to take steps to normalize mental well-being and to support students in seeking help. In our discussion, we focus on common stressors, which students struggle the most, why other professions seem to be doing better, and how law students can improve their own mental health. Amy is a Clinical Professor of Law at LMU Loyola Law School, Los Angeles. She graduated from the UCLA School of Law, Program in Public Interest Law and Policy, and the Department of Social Welfare, where she earned a JD/MSW. Amy also worked for ten years at Arnold & Porter as a litigation attorney and clerked for the Honorable Richard A. Paez of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. Faculty bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento. NOTE: In an effort to help normalize the conversation surrounding mental health, CLS launched the Wellness Program as part of Law Student Ministries. We hope to provide you not only training and support, but also forums where these topics can be discussed and destigmatized. Our first three conversations can be found here (w/ Dr. Tina Armstrong on healthy leadership), here (w/ Ruth Haley Barton on daily rhythms), and here (w/ Dr. Barbara L. Peacock on soul care).