Cross & Gavel Podcast

My conversation today is on the necessity of adaptive leadership in the coming wave that is artificial intelligence. My guest is Kevin Frazier, the newly minted AI Innovation and Law Fellow at The University of Texas School of Law. His article (here) in Law & Liberty is called Building an AI-Savvy Workforce. His new podcast, Scaling Law (here), is excellent. Find his other work at Lawfare (here). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

On June 20, 2025, the Fifth Circuit returned its decision in the Louisiana Ten Commandments case (here), upholding the District Courts order blocking the law from going into effect. This was followed by a petition on June 26 for a rehearing en banc by the State (here). At the same time, Texas passed its on bill (here) requiring displays of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. On June 24, that law was challenged in the Northern District of Texas (here) by a group of parents seeking to stop the bill from going into effect. Needless to say, our topic today is very timely, discussing the history of public displays of the Ten Commandments in public schools. My guests are Mark David Hall and Andrea Picciotti-Bayer, who wrote an article on the topic pending publication in the William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal entitled Ten Commandments in the Public Square and Public Schools (draft here). Mark David Hall (bio) joined the faculty of the Robertson School of Government at Regent University in 2023. He is one of the most outstanding scholars of early America, whose many distinguished publications have argued persuasively for the crucial importance of Christianity in the flourishing of America’s experiment in ordered liberty. Andrea Picciotti-Bayer (bio) is Director of the Conscience Project. A Stanford-educated lawyer, she has dedicated her legal career to civil rights and appellate advocacy. She got her start as a trial and appellate attorney in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. Prior to leading the Conscience Project, she served as the legal advisor for the Catholic Association, filing amicus briefs with federal courts of appeal and the U.S. Supreme Court in key religious freedom and free speech cases. Resources noted by the guests: RFI, John Witte's book, and The Sacred Rights of Conscience (Liberty Fund) book. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

This week, we have a special episode. One near and dear to my heart and my own intellectual history. It is a conversation with professor Marc O. DeGirolami on his piece published in the Oxford Journal of Law & Religion covering the life and death of law and religion. Read it here. In it, he takes us into the first wave of this movement and its advent forces with those like Harold Berman and John Witte, Jr., who took on the critical mantle of reacting to “the deconstruction of the American Christian legal heritage proceeding apace in the courts and the academy.” DeGirolami discusses the priorities that animated the early scholars of this movement and its eventual decline due not only to various forms of categorical capitulations and concept desuetude, but also the ravages of retirements and the changing landscape of legal discourse. We talk about all this and more! Marc is the inaugural St. John Henry Newman Professor of Law and Co-Director of the Center for Law and the Human Person. Full bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development. My guests today are James A. Boatman & Stephen Schahrer, collectively from the Florida law firm Boatman Ricci. James is a commercial litigator with extensive experience in both federal and state courts. He has handled a broad spectrum of matters including: contract enforcement; foreclosure prosecution/defense; internet wire fraud prosecution; special asset recovery; construction defect litigation; common law tort cases (fraud, defamation, etc.) and many others. Stephen handles legal matters for clients from “all walks of life” in the area of business and commercial litigation including business litigation, construction defect and lien litigation, real estate litigation, general contract litigation, and trust and estate litigation. Stephen also serves as outside General Counsel to several local businesses and nonprofits. For more. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.

With the release of U.S. News Rankings last month, renewed interest has surfaced regarding the parameters and impact of placement. Where law schools fall speaks to not only the quality of their percieved education, but also success regarding student employment and faculty publication. On this episode, I speak with Michael Conklin, a scholar who’s been measuring bias within the Rankings system, this time focusing his attention on religious law schools. His paper, soon to be published in the Florida Journal of Law & Public Policy, is entitled Religious Law Schools, Rankings, and Bias: Measuring the Rankings Penalty at Religious Law Schools. Dr. Michael Conklin is the Visiting Assistant Professor of Business Law at Texas A&M University Central Texas and a lecturer at Texas A&M University School of Law. Full bio and SSRN papers. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together.   In this special episode, Michelle Williams talks to Ken Sande about relational wisdom, emotional intelligence, and developing healthy habits in navigating the challenges of legal pratice.  Helpful resources for continuing education: Relational Wisdom 360 [Home Page] A Stolen Baby, $200M Lawsuit and an Astonishing Reconciliation [READ] Attorneys as Peacemakers and Conciliators [PDF]  Reconciled by a Baby Moose [READ] Lincoln's Relational Wisdom [READ] Emotional Intelligence for (Secular) Attorneys [READ] For more with Ken Sande, listen to our other conversatioin here. Link to SUBSTACK here. Music Credit: Tokyo Music Walker  

For most of the second half of 20th century, the Supreme Court has wrestled with finding a balance between the Free Exercise of religion and the Establishment Clause, offering several tests to test the limits of permissible accommodation without the undue appearance of government endorsement. Among those tests has been a little-thing called the “play in the joints,” famously introduced in Walz v. Tax Commissioner of New York (1970). In this episode, I explore this concept with Falco Anthony Muscante II, whose paper in the Ave Marie Law Review is called “Play in the Joints” Among the Religion Clauses: Rebuilding the Strong Joints the Framers Formed. In our conversation, we discuss the history of the religious clause and what the framers intended, how the concept emerged and became weaponized in Locke v. Davey (2003), why the Court has latched on to the idea of state neutrality and how that impacts religion, and more. Falco Anthony Muscante II earned his J.D. in 2023 from the Duquesne University School of Law, where he served on the executive boards for the Law Review and Appellate Moot Court Board. He is an alumnus of Grove City College, where he graduated summa cum laude with a B.S. Management, minor in Pre-Law, and concentration in Human Resources. Falco is a litigation associate at a big law firm in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, soon headed to clerk for the Third Circuit. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento

The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development. My guests today are Joe Ruta and Stephen Lyon. Joe is a Partner of Ruta, Soulios, & Stratis LLP. He is outside general counsel to over 30 corporations ranging from startups to public companies as well as not-for-profits. For more. Stephen is a deputy assistant public defender working in Connecticut. For more. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.

The recent publication of Melissa Moschella’s Ethics, Politics, and Natural Law has renewed interest in the application of natural law to human flourishing. A topic that has undergone a resurgence among not only Catholics, but also Protestants with seminal publications from those like David VanDrunen, Micah Watson, and Andrew T. Walker. Seeing students engaging in this tradition has been rewarding and today I speak to one of those students, Josiah Wolfe, and his article in the Campbell Law Observer entitled, Natural Law and Its Discontents. We talk about the early stages of his interest in the topic, whether he’s seeing the natural law in his assignment, how he approaches Aquinas and law, the relationship between legislation and divine ordinance, and much more. Josiah is a second-year law student at Campbell University School of Law and is a Staff Writer for the Campbell Law Observer. He grew up in North Carolina and graduated summa cum laude from Charter Oak College with a B.S. in Business Administration. He was also a CLS Fellow in 2024. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

A popular refrain from both the left and the right in American society is one concerning the importance of liberty for the flourishment of their respective communities. But what does true freedom look like and, perhaps more importantly, how does one come to attain it and then keep it in a world like our own. This week, I am joined by Brad Littlejohn to talk about his new book, Called to Freedom: Retrieving Christian Liberty in an Age of License. In our conversation, we discuss the journey of writing this book, the nature and meaning of liberty in all of its areas, role of obligation and virtue, the influence of modern technology on freedom, and more. Brad is the Director of Programs and Education at American Compass and president emeritus at Davenant Institute. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.