Cross & Gavel Podcast

In this special film festival edition, I talk with Crystal L. Downing about the medium of film and how to approach the viewing experience. At the heart of our discussion is her new book, The Wages of Cinema: A Christian Aesthetic of Film in Conversation with Dorothy L. Sayers. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

One of the major challenges in religious freedom law is figuring out to what extent a claim of accommodation is justified given the low barrier of entry for claims of sincerity. While American law tries to prevent a man from becoming what Justice Scalia in Smith called “a law unto himself,” something of the sort is happening when a person claims that his faith prevents him from following the normal course of obedience. My conversation today helps illuminate some of this in a profound way, specifically looking at Soren Kierkegaard’s ethical system and considering its corollary in the rule of law. My guest is Joshua Neoh, a senior lecturer in law at the Australian National University (ANU), Australia. He has an LLB, LLM and PhD from the ANU, Yale and Cambridge, respectively. Full bio. His paper at the heart of this conversation is called Kierkegaardian Ethics and the Rule of Law, available here. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

In Part I, Ross Halperin and I laid a foundation for the work of ASJ in Honduras under the leadership of Kurt Ver Beek and others. In this episode, I am joined by Kurt himself to discuss his exchange of letters between Nicholas Wolterstorff in a wonderful book, Call for Justice: From Practice to Theory and Back, which looks at the meaning of justice and the work ASJ. Kurt is joined by Emily Cole, who has focused on Latin America most of her career and remains a passionate advocate for the well-being and development of that region. I speak to them about a number of things, focusing on the structural details of working in the area, including the difference between social justice and community development, the importance of long-term missionary work, the significance of elections, working with the government, and more. Kurt and his wife, Jo Ann Van Engen, are currently the directors of Calvin University’s Justice Studies Semester, which studies the concept of justice in relation to history, economics, politics, sociology, and development in Honduras. Both are founding members of the Association for a More Just Society (ASJ) in Honduras. ASJ seeks to do justice in Honduras and inspire others around the world to seek justice in their own contexts. For more. Emily Cole is a lawyer and an advocate, writing about poetry, human rights, and community development, with a focus on Latin America. For more on her work on covenantal pluralism, go here. She also recently wrote for the Journal of Christian Legal Thought considering the role of the poetic imagination in Latin America. Read it here. Both are Fulbright recipients, with a focus on work in Honduras and Ecuador, respectively. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

Today, we start a two-part journey into the heart of Honduran society. Our focus will be on one man, Kurt Ver Beek, and the organization he co-founded, Association for a More Just Society (ASJ). Kurt is a professor of Sociology (Emeritus) at Calvin University and lead investigator for an agreement between Transparency International, the Honduran Government, and ASJ. For this first episode, we are joined by the reporter Ross Halperin, whose recent biography (here) of Kurt’s ministry (New York Times profile here) paints a fascinating picture of a man dedicated to the cause of justice. While Ross and I do not discuss the entire scope of the book, we do focus on the criminal justice system and the many barriers erected for victims seeking relief. Ross and I talk about how he came to write the book, the work of ASJ in helping reduce the violence in Honduras, some of the main characters in the story, and much more. Ross attended Harvard University and worked under Mark A. R. Kleiman, one of the world’s leading criminal-justice scholars. He started reporting this story in 2018 and has since spent much of his time in Honduras. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

My conversation today is on the necessity of adaptive leadership in the coming wave that is artificial intelligence. My guest is Kevin Frazier, the newly minted AI Innovation and Law Fellow at The University of Texas School of Law. His article (here) in Law & Liberty is called Building an AI-Savvy Workforce. His new podcast, Scaling Law (here), is excellent. Find his other work at Lawfare (here). Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

On June 20, 2025, the Fifth Circuit returned its decision in the Louisiana Ten Commandments case (here), upholding the District Courts order blocking the law from going into effect. This was followed by a petition on June 26 for a rehearing en banc by the State (here). At the same time, Texas passed its on bill (here) requiring displays of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. On June 24, that law was challenged in the Northern District of Texas (here) by a group of parents seeking to stop the bill from going into effect. Needless to say, our topic today is very timely, discussing the history of public displays of the Ten Commandments in public schools. My guests are Mark David Hall and Andrea Picciotti-Bayer, who wrote an article on the topic pending publication in the William and Mary Bill of Rights Journal entitled Ten Commandments in the Public Square and Public Schools (draft here). Mark David Hall (bio) joined the faculty of the Robertson School of Government at Regent University in 2023. He is one of the most outstanding scholars of early America, whose many distinguished publications have argued persuasively for the crucial importance of Christianity in the flourishing of America’s experiment in ordered liberty. Andrea Picciotti-Bayer (bio) is Director of the Conscience Project. A Stanford-educated lawyer, she has dedicated her legal career to civil rights and appellate advocacy. She got her start as a trial and appellate attorney in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. Prior to leading the Conscience Project, she served as the legal advisor for the Catholic Association, filing amicus briefs with federal courts of appeal and the U.S. Supreme Court in key religious freedom and free speech cases. Resources noted by the guests: RFI, John Witte's book, and The Sacred Rights of Conscience (Liberty Fund) book. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

This week, we have a special episode. One near and dear to my heart and my own intellectual history. It is a conversation with professor Marc O. DeGirolami on his piece published in the Oxford Journal of Law & Religion covering the life and death of law and religion. Read it here. In it, he takes us into the first wave of this movement and its advent forces with those like Harold Berman and John Witte, Jr., who took on the critical mantle of reacting to “the deconstruction of the American Christian legal heritage proceeding apace in the courts and the academy.” DeGirolami discusses the priorities that animated the early scholars of this movement and its eventual decline due not only to various forms of categorical capitulations and concept desuetude, but also the ravages of retirements and the changing landscape of legal discourse. We talk about all this and more! Marc is the inaugural St. John Henry Newman Professor of Law and Co-Director of the Center for Law and the Human Person. Full bio. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

The Foundations Series is a new web content venture from CLS aimed at helping Christian law students transition from 3Ls to first-year associates. It features Christian practitioners skilled in the integration of faith and practice, offering guidance in conversation with students at the early stages of their legal development. My guests today are James A. Boatman & Stephen Schahrer, collectively from the Florida law firm Boatman Ricci. James is a commercial litigator with extensive experience in both federal and state courts. He has handled a broad spectrum of matters including: contract enforcement; foreclosure prosecution/defense; internet wire fraud prosecution; special asset recovery; construction defect litigation; common law tort cases (fraud, defamation, etc.) and many others. Stephen handles legal matters for clients from “all walks of life” in the area of business and commercial litigation including business litigation, construction defect and lien litigation, real estate litigation, general contract litigation, and trust and estate litigation. Stephen also serves as outside General Counsel to several local businesses and nonprofits. For more. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Chris Zabriskie.

With the release of U.S. News Rankings last month, renewed interest has surfaced regarding the parameters and impact of placement. Where law schools fall speaks to not only the quality of their percieved education, but also success regarding student employment and faculty publication. On this episode, I speak with Michael Conklin, a scholar who’s been measuring bias within the Rankings system, this time focusing his attention on religious law schools. His paper, soon to be published in the Florida Journal of Law & Public Policy, is entitled Religious Law Schools, Rankings, and Bias: Measuring the Rankings Penalty at Religious Law Schools. Dr. Michael Conklin is the Visiting Assistant Professor of Business Law at Texas A&M University Central Texas and a lecturer at Texas A&M University School of Law. Full bio and SSRN papers. Cross & Gavel is a production of CHRISTIAN LEGAL SOCIETY. The episode was produced by Josh Deng, with music from Vexento.

It is no secret that law students and attorneys exist in a stressful environment. As Amy Levin recently wrote, "[l]aw student mental health is at an all-time low." The American Bar Association (ABA) has conducted a study that shows how this environment tends to contribute to high rates of mental health disorders and substance abuse. In an effort to face this challenge, LSM has launched the Wellness Program—focused on providing students resources and discussions to face this issue, together.   In this special episode, Michelle Williams talks to Ken Sande about relational wisdom, emotional intelligence, and developing healthy habits in navigating the challenges of legal pratice.  Helpful resources for continuing education: Relational Wisdom 360 [Home Page] A Stolen Baby, $200M Lawsuit and an Astonishing Reconciliation [READ] Attorneys as Peacemakers and Conciliators [PDF]  Reconciled by a Baby Moose [READ] Lincoln's Relational Wisdom [READ] Emotional Intelligence for (Secular) Attorneys [READ] For more with Ken Sande, listen to our other conversatioin here. Link to SUBSTACK here. Music Credit: Tokyo Music Walker