Reimagining Justice

In this episode no. 20 I interview Sue Garlick, the first community legal centre lawyer on the podcast. Sue is Joint Director of LawRight, formerly QPILCH, a pro bono clearing house in Queensland which increases access to justice for vulnerable people through strategic partnerships with pro bono professionals. Sue explains why LawRight - which itself was an innovation for its time - was established and shared her thoughts on innovation broadly and especially in the legal assistance sector, as well as her views on the biggest access to justice issue and ways to address it using specific examples from LawRight’s multidisciplinary services. You are likely aware of the major ongoing challenge for the sector, namely decreasing government funding, but you may be surprised by what Sue sees as other challenges in regards to innovation. She had some interesting, perhaps controversial views about whether empathetic lawyering may co-exist with an entrepreneurial mindset. This episode will be of special interest to justice entrepreneurs wanting to hear first-hand from an experienced community lawyer about current issues and challenges, to community lawyers wanting to be innovative in their service delivery and law students interested in a career in social justice. In my view, the multidisciplinary and client-centric approach of community lawyering comes through very strongly. Links: LawRight Law Yarn Legalpedia Community Legal Centres Qld needs Lawyers Weekly article Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 19 I interview Mark Swivel and Fiona Spencer of Barefoot Law. Mark is the founder and principal, and Fiona an associate at Barefoot Law which is a low cost community legal clinic based in the Northern Rivers of New South Wales. Barefoot Law is taking a unique approach to providing legal advice to its local community in a way that shouldn’t be a surprising – by charging extremely affordable fees. You might be surprised just how affordable! Keep listening to find out how the cover the unavoidable costs of running a law firm. Mark explains what motivated him to start Barefoot Law, the kinds of advice they provide, how and where they deliver it. We talk about the disconnect between the profession and everyday people’s understanding of the law and what’s needed. Mark also shares some thought- provoking views about whether lawyers can be entrepreneurs. Mark and Fiona were very open in sharing the somewhat unexpected and personal challenges they’ve faced in running a law firm that honours its clients in very human way. This episode will be of interest to you if you’re looking for ways to minimise costs in your law firm, in providing legal services to the missing middle or how to deliver legal advice in less traditional ways such as through unbundling. Links: Barefoot Law Citizens Advice Bureau Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 18 I interview the first technology provider on the podcast! Dominique Simsion is Asia-Pacific Director of Consulting and Solutions at Neota Logic - the no code AI platform that enables the creation of intelligent web applications. Dominique explains what no-code document automation and expert systems are, the origins and evolution of the LawApps course which is a university course teaching project management and other skills that haven’t traditionally been part of a law degree. She was very open about the challenges for community legal centres and the potential benefits to Neota Logic in providing the course and positive about the outcomes for students. We covered about the challenge of sustainability for IT projects, how to turn talk into action including her tips for incorporating innovation across a legal practice and Dominique had some particularly interesting views on innovation by press release and hackathons. This episode will be of interest to lawyers wanting to understand how a no-code platform could work within their practice, community legal centres curious about how to incorporate technology, legal educators and law students interested in a legal tech program or practical experience. While there is understandable investment on Neota Logic’s part in the future of its own business and growing the ecosystem of those familiar with its platforms, there is a genuine commitment within the constraints of the university program, to make it the best experience possible for the students and the community legal centres that Neota Logic aims to support. It’s a really interesting example of collaboration between a technology provider, community law, universities and the private profession and it illustrates my point that everyone can play a part in improving access to justice. Links:  Neota Logic LawApps University of Melbourne Youth Law Street Law “LEGAL INNOVATION” Education in Australian Law Schools Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 17 I was again fortunate to interview 2 people who’ve been part of a team working on an online tool to make it easier, quicker and cheaper for people to sort out claims arising from motor vehicle accidents. One of the guests is an expert in personal injuries law having represented people in some high profile and serious claims of sexual misconduct etc. and the other has a PhD in physics and before her current role was a post doc research fellow with the institute for bioengineering and nanotechnology. Jodie Willey joined Shine Lawyers as a 16 year old articled clerk, keen to work with people to make a difference. For almost 25 years at Shine, Jodie has helped to shine a light on injustice and helped many thousands of clients and now, drawing on her blend of experience, Jodie is now focussed on innovation and how technology can transform the delivery of services in the legal sector. Ann Bui joined Shine last year to work on the development of Claimify. Prior to this, Ann was a computational physicist, answering questions ranging from ‘how does malaria change the behaviour of red blood cells?’ to ‘how should conservationists classify the quality of sperm used in endangered animal breeding programs?’. You will hear in the interview exactly how a physicist has helped in developing Calimify suffice to say that using her computational modelling skills, Ann is keen to disrupt the legal industry so that there is greater transparency and access to justice for everyone. In this episode you will hear about: Key features of the online tool and how having 10 years of data about a particular type of claim can more efficiently generate advice with the assistance of machine learning. In fact Ann draws parallels between how lawyers learn and how AI works; which begs the question of whether a lawyer could be replaced by a set of equations? How original assumptions about who might use the tool was challenged when the target was a youthful online user, but first client was a 62 yo woman. What’s critical if you’re in an established organisation doing “innovation”. The make up of the very multidisciplinary team and their process. Whether this type of tool could be approp for other types of claims including where the evidence is sensitive, and What has surprised Claimify about how and when people have used the platform. You will especially enjoy this episode if you are interested in project management of a legal tech solution and what’s critical to success. What is quite unique about this online tool is the fact that it isn’t a legal tech start up or new law firm basically running a virtual law firm and providing a very client centric solution; but a very established Queensland law firm. Links:  Claimify ALTA Max Kelsen   Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 16 I interview Miguel Willis, a 2017 graduate from Seattle University School of Law and currently the inaugural Presidential Innovation Fellow at Law School Admission Council, where he oversees the Access to Justice Tech Fellows Program which is a program that pairs law students with legal services organizations to develop projects that support the use of technology, data, and design-thinking to bridge the justice gap in America. Miguel is committed to leveraging his law degree in a non-traditional way to solve seemingly intractable problems and in this episode you will hear examples of how he does just that. Miguel shares with me the personal reasons that led him to set up this innovative program, and how he is aiming to fill a gap in traditional legal education. We cover how he went about doing so, the types of organisations involved and the interesting projects they work on and how it leads to opportunities for students. We also cover how, funnily enough, Miguel ended up being a fellow in his own program. In this episode you will hear how one person turned a good idea into action, the benefits and challenges of hackathons, the key to partnerships that have real impact, and actions we can take to improve diversity in the profession. You will especially enjoy this episode if you are interested in the entrepreneurs’ journey including how to overcome issues of program sustainability; and creative models for new legal education and justice solutions. Links:  ATJ Tech Fellows Justice Innovation Challenge Legal Services National Technology Assitance Project Internet bar organisation Innovation in Legal Practice Summit Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 15, I speak with namely Andrew Wight and Kath Manby of Adieu Legal, two people doing amazing work to make law better for people with family law disputes. Andrew is an entrepreneur and multi-award-winning designer; CEO and co-founder of Adieu Legal, a Legal Tech start-up focused on creating better ways for humans to resolve conflict. Kath is a family lawyer with a single-minded passion for access-to-justice and as Legal Principal at Adieu Legal, exploring new ways to use technology to connect more people with good legal advice and keep them out of court. Do you know what actually stops people from seeking legal advice? You might be surprised. We explore issues with Australia’s family law system and how disputes and the growing epidemic of domestic violence could be reduced through ways other than court orders and the role of Adieu Legal’s sophisticated and very useful solution in all of this. If you are interested in how human centred design helps identify people’s actual problems and leads to effective solutions, especially in the context of family law; or more generally, interested in legal tech and entrepreneurship to solve social problems and especially how clients can benefit from lawyers doing things differently and working in multidisciplinary teams – you will take a lot from this conversation with Kath and Andrew. Adieu Intelligent Divorce Andrew Wight Articles ALRC Family Law System Review – Final Report Impact Academy Family and Domestic Violence working with clients - The College of Law Training Lifeline's new Twitter DM chatbot Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

  In this episode no. 14, I speak with Joanna Mendoza, a member of the California State Bar Board of Trustees since 2013, and currently a member of the Task Force on Access Through Innovation of Legal Services. Joanna and I discussed the recommendations voted upon by the Task Force on 28 June and where to from here. She shared why people from disciplines other than law need to be on a body that regulates lawyers, and where the risks should lie in the provision of legal services. We also talked about the wild card standing between the recommendations and their official implementation. You will be interested in this interview if you want to understand the relationship between professional legal regulation and access to legal services, the influence of places like Silicon Valley on challenging the lawyers’ monopoly, and an emerging thread of the podcast, the importance of monitoring the effectiveness of any solution. If you teach, study or enforce ethical rules, or have an idea that could potentially scale legal advice - lawyer or not; or are a potential investor in legal tech products or services – you won’t want to miss this conversation about the shifting sands of legal regulation…. Links: State Bar Task Force on Access Through Innovation of Legal Services Report TASK FORCE ON ACCESS THROUGH INNOVATION OF LEGAL SERVICES State Bar Study of Online Delivery of Legal Services – Discussion of Preliminary Landscape Analysis Task Force on Access Through Innovation of Legal Services Avvo Legal Zoom British 22-year-old lawtech entrepreneur raises £3.7 million from Facebook and Airbnb backers to help fund ‘robot lawyer’ app The College of Law Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 13, I interview Tim Baran, Law Help NY manager at Pro Bono net.  Tim works with communities across the legal services, non-profit, and technology sectors to build solutions to help close the justice gap and expand access to legal help for low-income and vulnerable people. 
I found my conversation with Tim very refreshing. It seems to me that Tim is an open minded realist He made many great points especially about how we need a high level of collaboration to solve the access to justice crisis. You will want to listen to this episode if you are interested in knowing how 1 organisation is helping many other organisations to use tech to deliver legal information and connect people to lawyers, about sustainability of projects and measuring outcomes, and why we need to break down silos between different players in this space. 
This interview will particularly appeal to you if you are a public service provider of legal resources, a community lawyer looking to incorporate digital projects, or if you’d just like to hear from someone working on the ground about the role for emerging technology and the opportunities before us right now. Tim’s enthusiasm and desire to learn comes through in this interview.  I hope you’ll be inspired by his journey and his work.
 Links: https://www.probono.net/ https://www.lawhelpny.org/   https://www.justicepodcast.com/author/stevenson/   https://designingyour.life/the-book/   https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/539747/winners-take-all-by-anand-giridharadas/9780451493248/   https://www.amazon.com/Weapons-Math-Destruction-Increases-Inequality/dp/0553418815 https://rosenfeldmedia.com/books/build-better-products/

In this episode no. 12, I interview lawyer and founder of Barefoot Law in Uganda, Gerald Abila. Founded in 2013, Barefoot Law is a non-profit organization using digital technology in innovative ways to empower people to develop legal solutions for their justice needs. We covered so much in this interview including the specific challenges in sub-Saharan Africa, the type of tech that Barefoot Law uses most, how they reached the most vulnerable members of the community when tech couldn’t, and Gerald's views for the future including what he says is the ultimate law. Gerald shares how he started Barefoot Law when he was in law school and his journey establishing an organisation with no resources.  We also cover more personal reflections on the importance of values and what motivates him. You will want to listen to this episode if you are interested in understanding the connection between AI and social good, law and maths, how to lead an organisation with very few resources and the importance of tailoring your solution to local conditions. This interview will particularly appeal to you if you are a legal tech founder, community lawyer or seeking to understand the best way to leverage existing or emerging technology for positive social impact.  Barefoot Law AI and social good Washington Access to Justice technology principles Sustainable Development Goal 16 Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group

In this episode no. 11, I interview lawyer and academic Caitlin "Cat" Moon; the Director of Innovation Design for the Program in Law and Innovation (PoLI) at Vanderbilt Law School and Director of the PoLI Institute which provides training in legal innovation to practicing lawyers and legal professionals. I could relate to the fact that Cat’s experience spans academia, innovation, private practice and public service law. The expansiveness of her work means she can see synergies where others don’t and add value across many areas. You will want to listen to this episode if you are interested in knowing about human centred design, essential factors for positive change, the importance of mindsets, and some of the unexpected benefits of legal innovation. This interview will appeal to a broad range of listeners and especially be of interest to you if you are a legal educator or law student, legal designer, chief innovation officer or tasked with bringing different programs or mindsets to your organisation. Links: POLI Institute Vanderbilt Law School   Legal Problem Solving   California Task force on access to justice   Brene Brown "The Call to Courage" Andrea Perry-Petersen – LinkedIn - Twitter @winkiepp – andreaperrypetersen.com.au Twitter - @ReimaginingJ Facebook – Reimagining Justice group