“The main work that really needs to be carried out here is work in the intersection of animal welfare science and the science of ecology and other fields in life science… You could also build a career, not as a scientist, but say, in public administration or government. And you can reach a position in policy-making that can be relevant for the field, so there are plenty of different options there… Getting other interventions accepted and implemented would require significant lobby work. And that’s why having people, for instance, if you have people who are sympathetic to reducing wild animal suffering, and they are working in, say, national parks administration or working with the agricultural authorities, forest authorities, or whatever, these people could really make a significant difference.”Oscar HortaAnimals in the wild suffer, often to a large degree, because of natural disasters, parasites, disease, starvation, and other causes. But what can we do as individuals to help them? What are the most urgent priorities?Oscar Horta is a Professor of philosophy at the University of Santiago de Compostela and a co-founder of the nonprofit Animal Ethics. He has published and lectured in English and other languages on topics including speciesism and wild animal welfare.Topics discussed in the episode:Why should animal advocates and researchers think more carefully about the definition of speciesism? (1:40)Why Oscar believes framing our messaging in terms in speciesism and focusing on attitudes rather than behavior would help advocates to do more good (9:10)How relevant is existing research to the proposed research field of welfare biology, that would consider wild animals among other animals, and how can we integrate it? (16:40)What sorts of research are most urgently needed to advance the field of welfare biology and how can people go about pursuing this? (21:13)Careers related to helping wild animals in policy (36:10)What you can do if you already work at an animal advocacy organization or are interested in growing the field in other ways (39:45)The size of the current wild animal welfare movement in and the work of relevant nonprofits (51:40)How can we most effectively build support for this sort of work among other animal advocates and effective altruists? (57:33)How can we most effectively build a new academic field? (1:02:49)To what extent is public-facing advocacy desirable at this point? (1:10:09)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

“We want there to be animals like elephants, who on average have very good lives, rather than animals who tend to have very bad lives… If you have, say, a population of animals who reproduce by laying a million eggs. On average, only two of them would survive… Due to how the life history of animals is in many cases, we are not really speaking here about exceptions but rather about the norm. It's very common for animals to have lives that contain more suffering — sometimes much more suffering — than positive wellbeing… Regarding what needs to change most urgently, first of all we need to get more people involved. And also, of course, more funding would be greatly appreciated, because this is a severely underfunded field of research and advocacy.”Oscar HortaAnimals in the wild suffer, often to a large degree, because of natural disasters, parasites, disease, starvation, and other causes. But is there actually anything we can do to help them? And would that even be desirable?Oscar Horta is a Professor of philosophy at the University of Santiago de Compostela and a co-founder of the nonprofit Animal Ethics. He has published and lectured in both English and Spanish on topics including speciesism and wild animal welfare.Topics discussed in the episode:The work that is currently been done to help wild animals and what needs to change (2:08)The “idyllic view of nature” and why it seems incorrect (7:47)How can we best help wild animals? What should we focus on now? (25:19)Which interventions seem promising to help wild animals on a larger scale? (36:18)How does the case for intervention to help wild animals depend on different ethical theories? (46:27)Does uncertainty about the indirect effects of our actions to help wild animals make this area less promising? (54:09)Can we still help wild animals if we’re concerned about wild animals’ autonomy? (58:47)Does the case for working on wild animal welfare depend on an overall view about whether wild animals have lives that are net negative or net positive? (1:02:46)If we’re concerned about problems that will be large in scale over very long-term time horizons, should we still prioritize wild animal issues? (1:13:15)Why Oscar believes the concept of moral status should be abandoned (1:21:50)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

“Our challenge is one where investigations are very hard. The people who do this work, I cannot tell you how smart they are. They are doing all kinds of research, not just getting the footage. The footage is the last thing they’re getting; they’re doing so much more to be able achieve that footage, including thinking strategically through: How do we achieve that strategic plan that we’ve laid out which includes securing broiler policies, enforcing egg policies. And what we’re trying to do is not just telling stories that engage the public. They are underpinned by a bigger strategy. We worked on a campaign with McDonalds and we did undercover investigations into McDonalds egg-laying hens; undercover investigations followed by a coalition campaign that then led to them adopting cage-free eggs as their policy. And that is the precise formula that you want.”Leah GarcésMercy For Animals’ interventions affect the lives of hundreds of millions of animals. But how do we go from these impressive achievements to the end of factory farming? And what strategies should advocates be employing to help animals most effectively?Leah Garcés is the president of Mercy For Animals and previously founded Compassion in World Farming’s US branch. She’s also the author of the book Grilled: Turning Adversaries into Allies to Change the Chicken Industry.Topics discussed in the episode:Mercy For Animals’ plan for ending factory farming (1:45)How MFA decides which countries to focus its work on (9:06)Why MFA advocates for pigs, chickens, and fish, but not insects yet (17:45)The opportunities presented by COVID-19 for animal advocacy (20:19)How MFA maximizes the positive impact of its factory farm investigations (29:10)The priorities in corporate welfare campaigns and how advocates can avoid encouraging “humanewashing” by the meat industry (40:42)MFA’s marketing funnel for volunteers and capacity-building programmes (48:59)How Leah thinks about long-term trends and impact for animals on longer timeframes (53:20)How MFA has changed its approach to plant-based advocacy (1:06:50)The different countries that MFA operates in and how its role varies by country (1:13:48)How Leah’s career has developed and her tips for founding new nonprofits (1:19:34)The biggest bottlenecks preventing MFA from having even more impact than it already does (1:24:31)The importance of increasing operational expertise in the farmed animal movement (1:31:18)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

“In my career, one of the things that I’ve focused on the most is developing the theory of punctuated equilibrium. And I think recognising that things occasionally go through real transformations with radical change has changed people’s understanding of what we can expect out of government. It’s a much more fruitful way to think about how policy changes within government. It is true that for the most part, governments are very status quo oriented. But every once in a while, that’s thrown out and people recognise that there’s a crisis or a certain set of policy actors are discredited and other people come in and follow a different paradigm. And I think those events are relatively rare compared to the periods of stability, but if we don’t understand them then we can’t understand long periods of policy history in any domain.”- Frank BaumgartnerGovernmental policies are not fixed indefinitely; social change is possible. But does change happen incrementally or dramatically and suddenly? And how can individuals or social movements best use their time and resources to encourage positive social change?Frank Baumgartner is a professor of political science at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is an author of many books, including Agendas and Instability in American Politics, Lobbying and Policy Change: Who Wins, Who Loses, and Why, and The Decline of the Death Penalty and the Discovery of Innocence.Topics discussed in the episode:The role that financial resources play in efforts to encourage policy change (1:51)The methodology used in Agendas and Instability and the research priorities for political science as a field (11:26)The theory of “punctuated equilibrium” as a representation of how policy changes (15:23)The implications of the theory of punctuated equilibrium for seeking radical policy change rather than smaller incremental policy changes (21:13)The importance of public support for policy change (29:30)The importance of framing for determining policy outcomes (33:56)The importance of the tone of the media coverage of specific sub-topics of social issues and what this implies for social movement strategy (40:46)The value of linking policy reforms to underlying problems that people would like to see solved (56:18)The importance of having credible professional communities that can develop workable policy solutions (1:03:25)Critiques of Frank Baumgartner’s work plus alternative theories and methodologies (1:08:06)The relevance of Frank Baumgartner’s work for the question of “How tractable is changing the course of history?” (1:11:11)The extent to which Frank Baumgartner’s various findings apply outside the US and the differences between countries (1:14:16)How you can use your career to most effectively encourage policy change (1:28:28)How Frank Baumgartner’s own career has developed, how his work relates to “advocacy,” and his recommendations for other researchers (1:34:12)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

“There’s a relatively clear path on dramatically reducing the costs of the cell culture media. So I’d say it's definitely the most pressing bottleneck… not perhaps the most technically involved bottleneck… The recombinant proteins are by far the driving source of those cost contributions where probably anywhere from over 90 to 95% or more of the cost contribution of cell culture media today comes from those recombinant proteins. An independent group at Northwestern University in Chicago came out with a paper this past year… they were able to drop that cost of the media to around 11 dollars per liter… that was a 97% cost reduction in media that this group basically did for fun just to demonstrate that it can be done.”- Elliot SwartzAnimal-free food technologies, such as new plant-based foods that accurately mimic animal products and cultured meat (meat cultured from animal cells without requiring the slaughter of any animals) have the potential to dramatically displace the consumption of conventional animal products. But what are the bottlenecks in the way of successfully scaling up and reducing the costs of these products? And how can these bottlenecks be overcome?Dr Elliot Swartz is a senior scientist at The Good Food Institute and the author of a number of in-depth resources on cultured meat. He has previously worked as a consultant in the biotech industry.Topics discussed in the episode:The different stem cell-types that can be used to develop cultured meat, what work still needs to be done in this area, and how it can be done (5:26)Cell culture media as the most pressing bottleneck, and the clear path towards addressing this (19:06)Scaling up bioprocessing and bioreactors (39:55)Scaffold biomaterials as a fourth technical bottleneck (49:43)The technical bottlenecks in the way of the improvement and scale-up of highly meat-like plant-based meats and the career paths that are relevant to this area (58:41) How Elliot started to get involved in the animal-free food tech space and the similar opportunities that might exist for others to enter the space by synthesizing existing research (1:09:30)The lack of funding for research in the space and how this compares to the availability of talent as a bottleneck towards further progress (1:19:39)The pros and cons (beyond funding) of seeking technical research opportunities in academic vs. for-profit environments (1:30:09)To what extent medical advances in tissue engineering and related areas will drive progress on cultured meat (1:41:19)The importance of and opportunities for startups to operate a business-to-business model in the animal-free food technology space (1:45:52)When will cultured meat and highly meat-like plant-based meat products become competitive with conventional products in terms of cost and taste? (1:49:02) Should the proponents of animal-free food be prioritizing cultured meat or plant-based meat? (1:56:02)The skills and characteristics that would make someone an excellent researcher in the cultured and high-tech plant-based meat space (1:58:50)The transferability of career capital between academia, startups, and nonprofits and between research into high-tech plant-based meats and cultured meat (2:04:18)Concrete opportunities for getting work in this space (2:07:46)Which forms of academic and professional expertise are most urgently needed for the development of animal-free food technologies (2:13:43)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

Laila Kassam, a co-founder of Animal Think Tank and editor of a forthcoming book on food and agriculture, shares insights from her advocacy work. She discusses the dynamics of social movements and the strategies that succeed in shifting public opinion. Kassam explores the effectiveness of mass arrests and creative stunts in protests, drawing lessons from movements like Extinction Rebellion. Additionally, she reflects on the importance of grassroots activism and the need for narrative development in the animal justice movement.

“The three things that need to be done for Asia are capacity building, capacity building, and capacity building. There’s this tendency of wanting to do things at a global level, having uniformization across countries. But a lot of these policies that are written at the global level are not worth the paper that they’re printed on if there isn’t enough or more focus on building capacity on the ground. And it requires someone with grit to be there at the local level, speaking the local language, understanding the situation there. And I guess more and more international groups should be looking at building capacity rather than just nationwide or international treaties and legislation.” - Jayasimha NuggehalliAsia contains a large proportion of the world’s total farmed animal population. But what actions can be taken to most effectively reduce animal suffering in that context? And how can we build the capacity of local animal advocacy movements?Jayasimha Nuggehalli is a co-founder and the Chief Operating Officer of Global Food Partners, a new nonprofit helping companies to implement animal welfare commitments in Asia. He was the Country Director of HSI’s work in India and has participated in animal advocacy in India for over 20 years.Topics discussed in the episode:How and why Global Food Partners works with companies using, producing, and selling animal products, and why they do this in Asia (1:40)The objections that companies give to making further welfare commitments (13:24)Why Global Food Partners offers a “book and claim” credit trading platform to companies to support them to switch their “conventional eggs” to cage-free without passing on costs directly to consumers (17:19)Where pledges that affect Asian supply chains originate — Asian commitments compared to Western and international commitments — how this differs by country, and how Global Food Partners prioritize between different countries (21:42)How Global Food Partners secures its meetings and finds clients (32:59)How Global Food Partners’ work affects the profitability of the production and sale of animal products (35:02)How we can encourage better enforcement of existing animal protection laws in India — “capacity building, capacity building, and capacity building” as the key priority (43:39)The association between animal activism and right-wing political views in India (1:01:52)The pros and cons of focusing on companion animals in India (1:08:15)The main changes to the animal advocacy movement in India over the last 20 years (1:17:08)The origin stories of HSI India and PETA India, plus the importance of having local employees in animal advocacy organizations (1:24:21)Jayasimha’s career advice for advocates seeking to make progress for animals in Asia and the skills that are most urgently needed, such as animal welfare science and supply chain management (1:31:22)How transferable management and leadership experience from outside the animal advocacy movement is to the animal advocacy context (1:46:01)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

I think we forget sometimes because we look at Impossible, we look at Beyond, that they’re the tip of the spear, but there’s so much work and so much opportunity out there… We need to get to all the categories… Seafood in general is very, very underserved. And so getting access to amazing talented entrepreneurs who are going to focus on seafood… there’s a huge opportunity there, because that is such a level of high need. And there’s other categories like that, but I think… cheap, plant-based replacements specifically is an area of opportunity, and seafood is as well. There’s focus on burgers and hot dogs and products like that, especially in beef, and not enough focus yet on many of the other species that we need to get to.- Lisa FeriaInvesting in animal-free food technology startups offers opportunities to disrupt animal agriculture while making a profit. But is high counterfactual impact not irreconcilable with good returns on investment? And what kinds of entrepreneurs and companies seem most promising?Lisa Feria is the CEO of Stray Dog Capital, a group that invests in high-tech plant-based food and cellular agriculture startups. She also helped to found GlassWall Syndicate, a group of investors who collaborate to support animal-free food technology startups.Topics discussed in the episode:How Stray Dog Capital evaluates which companies are likely to deliver good returns on investment and the skills that entrepreneurs need to succeed (2:25)How companies can make high-quality projections and estimates about their chances of success and expected market share (19:45)How Stray Dog Capital evaluates the impact of companies and how this affects their investments (24:35)Why Beyond Meat was such a success story for its investors and why IPOs (initial public offerings) are the “gold standard” for maximising return on investment (30:55)Why Stray Dog Capital focuses on early stage investments, how crowded the space of impact investing in animal-free food tech is, and the counterfactual impact of investments (33:35)The trade-off between counterfactual impact and return on investment (55:05)Why Lisa is optimistic about continued growth and opportunities for animal-free food technology (1:02:22)How Stray Dog Capital collaborates with other investors through GlassWall Syndicate (1:05:48)The markets and geographies that Stray Dog Capital is most interested in, and the importance of pre-existing demand for animal-free foods (1:07:54)Broad vs. animal focus in terms of the impact and strategy of startups (1:12:10)The expected impact (and challenges) of cellular agriculture / cultured meat companies compared to plant-based companies (1:16:27)Projected timelines for when cellular agriculture products will become cost-competitive with conventional animal products, and how investors deal with this uncertainty (1:24:15)Why more animal-free food tech entrepreneurs should focus on neglected product categories like seafood and chicken replacements (1:28:45)Career preparation for working at impact investment groups and as entrepreneurs at animal-free food tech startups (1:36:58)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

Since about 75% or so (and that’s just a rough estimate)... of plant-based products on the market today are actually made on off-the-shelf meat processing equipment, we’re looking to actually change that part of the industry by actually designing new production equipment that is appropriate for the production of plant-based meat… By creating new production methods and new equipment at Rebellyous, we can bring down the cost of plant-based meat, increase the quality, and increase the volume of our products to well beyond what it is currently, [just] 0.2% of the meat industry.- Christie LagallyMany advocates hope that conventional animal products will eventually be entirely replaced by animal-free foods. But what are the challenges in the way of achieving this goal? What role can entrepreneurs play in encouraging change?Christie Lagally is the Founder & Chief Executive Officer of Rebellyous Foods, a company that is working to produce high-quality plant-based chicken nuggets in large quantities. She previously worked for 15 years in mechanical engineering and has also worked with the Good Food Institute and volunteered for the Humane Society of the United States.Topics discussed in the episode:Why and how Rebellyous Foods focuses on developing better tools for scaling the production of plant-based products (2:02) The specific equipment types and processes that the plant-based food industry currently relies on that need to be replaced (7:34)The uses and limitations of extruders (16:45)Who designs, produces, and sells the equipment that is used in plant-based products (19:02)The technical difficulties in producing plant-based chicken products compared to plant-based burgers (24:52)Developing plant-based fish products (33:14)Business to business vs. business to consumer strategies (36:43)The importance of branding in marketing animal-free food tech products (41:00)The use of engineering experience in developing plant-based foods (43:07)The importance of mission alignment in working in animal-free food technology startups (50:23)The transferability of experience in nonprofits to work in animal-free food technology companies (52:28)Christie’s experience with political actions for animals and views on the interaction between animal advocacy nonprofits and the animal-free food technology movement (56:45)The investment and support that Rebellyous Foods has received and the role of impact investment (1:04:48)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the show

More positive contact [with an outgroup] reduces prejudice. No matter how you measure it, no matter how you set up your study design, once there’s a positive contact situation, you lower prejudice towards the outgroup... These effects tend to be stronger among those higher on social dominance orientation and those higher on right-wing authoritarianism, which makes intergroup contact quite a good and efficient strategy to reduce prejudice among those who seem to be initially prejudiced towards outgroups.- Kristof DhontRecent psychological research on intergroup contact and human-animal relations has implications for effective animal advocacy strategy. But what are the most action-relevant findings? And how can researchers maximize their positive impact for animals?Kristof is a Senior Lecturer in Psychology at the University of Kent. He founded and directs a research group focused on the “Study of Human Intergroup and Animal Relations at Kent.” He recently edited the book Why We Love and Exploit Animals and organises the Animal Advocacy Conference: Insights from the Social Sciences.Topics discussed in the episode:Kristof’s most action-relevant work for animal advocates and the audience of his work (1:29)Finding the balance between academic rigor and making work accessible to advocates (6:15)SHARKLab and the academic field of human-animal relations (13:28)Connections between right-wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, and animal exploitation (26:02)“Vegetarianism threat,” its correlates, and its causes (41:12)The pros and cons of advocacy focusing on children (55:38)Research on human intergroup interactions and what this suggests about farmed animal advocacy (58:08)The importance of intergroup contact (including between humans and animals) being experienced as positive, in order to improve attitudes towards outgroups (1:12:32)The “secondary transfer effect” of intergroup contact, where reducing prejudice towards one outgroup also reduces prejudice towards other outgroups (1:14:52)How research careers and training in academia compare to research careers in nonprofits and more independent skills development (1:18:05)Advice on PhD applications and on research careers (1:31:16)The interaction between researchers in the academic sphere and the “effective animal advocacy” sphere (1:47:55)Resources discussed in the episode are available at https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/podcastSupport the showSupport the show