Mormon Discussion Podcast

Today we sit down McArthur Krishna, one of the authors of Our “Heavenly Family, Our earthly Families”.  We talk about Heavenly Mother, the role of women in scripture, the importance of gender equality in the stories we tell, and a inclusive definition of family.  We also talk about her adventure of a life and the curveballs that life throws. Get the Books: Our Heavenly Family, Our Earthly Families Girls Who Choose God: Stories of Courageous Women from the Bible Girls Who Choose God: Stories of Strong Women from the Book of Mormon   The post 236: Heavenly Family Earthly Families appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

My shelf crashed around the age of 32.  I was serving as a Bishop well late into my second year of that calling.  No one knew…. not my Stake President, not my counselors, not even my wife.  I had many a sleepless nights and tried every solution I could to find the kind of peace that allowed me to maintain my prior beliefs.  There was an ebb and flow to my faith.  Finding way stations along the way to pause and rest believing perhaps I had found an answer.  But those gifts of grace were only momentary plateaus useful in slowing me down, giving me time to process, and helping see forward was the only way as I sought truth in that way a real truth-seeker does.   I delved into every nook and cranny of Mormonism, ingesting every faithful evidence, every critical question.  I dove deep into a study of the atonement, and those beautiful gifts of Mercy and Grace.  I read Quinn, Bushman, Givens, and  Prince.  I also gave an immense amount of time to Holland, Gene R Cook, Brad Wilcox, Maxwell, and others.  I spent a lot of time in my job on the road alone.  Sometimes hours a day.  Just me, My MP3 player, and those voices of leaders and scholars.  I found podcasts and audio books feeling if I just listened to one more thing I could find that missing puzzle piece that helps me see where all the others belong and fit.  Trying so hard to keep it together I wrote apostles pleading for help.  I communicated with Church leaders at every level with no one having answers. …. One day something shifted in my mind.  Some new idea entered in and it pushed an old idea out.  Rather than continue the compulsion to make the pieces fit, this new idea which was almost a living breathing thing… It was the permission to take it all down.  To disassemble everything.  To deconstruct my faith piece by piece.  Each piece removed would be studied with wondrous intent.  Examining every nook and cranny.  Every side of every piece.  Checking it over and over to see if some angle was missed.  Feeling for the first time in my life I was beginning to own my own faith.  I kept the pieces that were beautiful, interesting, and some simply because they were still useful.  Others that were ugly, unhealthy, or untrue were discarded.  Others still were set off to the side for later examination, their final place yet to be decided. When this process had progressed…. one can never say finished or completed as this is a process that continues over a lifetime…. but when this process had progressed to a point where I began to have some retrospective insight of where I was and how far I had come, I realized some particles of wisdom, of insight, of advice that may be useful to those less familiar with this terrain.  I don’t claim to know any ultimate truths but I do suggest that those of us on this narrow path can learn much from the collective wisdom from the whole of us who are traveling and have traveled it.  I offer here several thoughts.  If they are helpful great.  Claim them and make them yours.  If not please discard them and continue searching for others.   Jesus vs Gospel vs Church:  How the Church even in its weakness does its job. Let me start by being blunt.  Jesus as the literal divine Son of God who lived 33 years in mortality, died on the cross for you and me, and rose in three days….. well…….  His story may not be literally true.  In fact God himself may not be real.  At least not this figure from whom we were literally made in his image, whom sits on a throne up in yonder heavens.  I think everyone skirts around this and no one wants to just put this out into the ether of Mormonism but it needs to be said.  Please don’t misunderstand me.  I have faith in God.  I have faith in Christ.  I hope in Jesus and his atonement.  And to be honest whether he is historical and divine or not, I have truly been affected… might I say changed…. by his grace and mercy. With that stated, let me share that his Gospel is absolutely true.  Jesus gives us a example, a path, a way of life that calls us to both connect with the divine and to be something bigger than ourselves.  I know the Gospel is true because when I am striving to live it, it lives within me.  Whether Jesus is historical, I suggest you come to grips that his gospel is real and living. When I say Gospel, I don’t mean Church.  They are very different separate things… even unrelated or polar opposites at times.  The latter is flawed, imperfect, and at times downright unhealthy.  Might I even say dead.  Dead in that anytime it operates unconnected to the living Gospel it commits behaviors that are empty of light and life.  The former is Perfect, a source of strength or in other words living waters.  The gospel is truly deep and alive and it calls us to be so as well. I need to say here as well… The Church or specifically The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints may not be true and living in the way many are seeking to prove or disprove.  Yet at that same moment it may be just that…. True and Living.  Let me explain.  The Church’s mission is to bring all unto Christ.  The Church in its deep and unhealthy shortcomings may do just that.  For those of us in such a faith journey we need this tension… in fact it is this tension which picked us up and set us down on the narrow path.  Without this tension we would still be living in a binary world, looking to extrinsic authorities and never seeing the world through glass less darkly.  As mad and angry as I am at times with my religion, it is this very tension which has pointed me to Christ.   That for way too long I had looked to the Church to save me, until one day I saw it for what it was, a failed human led endeavor that provided more disappointment and shortcomings then I was ever expecting.  In that moment when I perceived just how flawed it was, it is as if in my mind I could picture the church sadly stepping aside and pointing me towards that which was truly redemptive… Christ and his gospel. In failing, the Church essentially has asked us not to ultimately trust it.  Not to place it as our foundation but rather to see it only as a tool designed to help us see that our trust all along should have been placed elsewhere…. in Christ.  In other words you need this tension.  If you can bear it, you need to swim in these waters.  For those who leave for their personal well-being, I validate and honor your choice.  I have been oh so close myself at times and reserve the right to say enough at some future point.  For now, I need this tension.  That even if the Church isn’t “TRUE”, it is true and living and performs the very mission that Christ allegedly gave it.  Even in failing, and it fails miserably at times, it does its job.  I could even argue if the Church was healthy enough that none of us saw reason to doubt it, that it actually would fail at its mission.  Can you make space in your heart and mind to see that the very reason you have moved onto the narrow path is because the Church failed you?   Answers vs Questions: Living in the Question: When your shelf first cracks you go into panic mode.  At least I did.  I knew there were troublesome questions but also knew if I just read enough I would find satisfactory answers.  I needed the answers.  I craved them but around every corner was 5 more questions.  And the original question?  Well it would, once in a great while, end with a satisfactory answer but mostly disappointing and at times those answers were desperately overreaching and at times downright absurd and unreasonable.  But I could not walk away.  I knew the answers were there if I just said one more prayer, read one more scripture, fasted one more hour, read one more book, listened to one more podcast, or asked one more apologist.  I knew the Church was True or at least I needed it to be and darn it, I would see this through.  But as I learned by study and by faith, eventually it rested upon me.  An awareness that the questions no longer mattered.  Was the Book of Mormon historical… maybe… probably not….. in the end it doesn’t matter…. at least not to me.  By that I mean I no longer cared if it was historical.  It was no longer a question I had to find the answer to.  Rather I now quite enjoy living in the question.  I apply this to Prophets, Book of Abraham, Divine Translation, Old Testament historicity and, even the historical Jesus.  The answers to those issues don’t matter.  In fact a significant portion of my being is grateful that we don’t have the answers we want on such things as the questions are much more enjoyable than the answers.  And in questions, not answers, is real growth present.  I get it…… some of you are in that phase where you need the answers so bad.  Keep pushing.  Keep moving.  Keep pressing forward with steadfastness…. eventually your likely to find yourself in that space where the questions mean so much more than the answers. In Proving Contraries Truth is Made Manifest: “In Proving Contraries, Truth is Made Manifest” is a quote by Joseph smith.  It is deep.  It is one I love.  It is profound.  As I have wrestled with paradoxes, nuance, contradictions, and complexities I have discovered truth.  As I wrestle with scripture, with prophets, and even with God I have felt divine growth within me.  I have found the very attributes Christ exemplifies, showing up in my life with greater profundity.  Not that I have become perfect but rather that I know and sense the very Christ in attendance.  That as Paul relays Christ telling him, “My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.”  And like Paul I exclaim “Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.”  Growth… real personal growth…. occurs in our lives when our lives are messy.  When there is conflict, when there is tragedy, when deep challenges are present in our lives.  It is in this wrestling with the greatest paradox of all…. our very life…… that we are challenged by Christ and his gospel to become something more.  Again this is another thing we need.  We need contradictions within our life and for them to be in our very face day in and day out for us to learn deep and expansive truths that lead us into further stages of development.   Apostasy vs Faith Development: The Crux of Mormon Cognitive Dissonance: Cognitive Dissonance is defined as the tension in our mind when we are torn between two or more competing thoughts.  In Mormonism we use this a lot to describe the angst we feel wanting the Church to be what it claims while feeling distanced from such claims by the data and our experience.  Often people when they first enter this space they describe this “cognitive dissonance” as a Faith Crisis.  This angst feels like a real crisis.  Like everything you once held sacred and close has been torn from your arms and you are struggling, with no progress, to get it back.  The trouble is that in this phase or stage one has a faulty perspective.  It feels as though you are losing something.  That this loss places you as somehow further distanced from God and your very Church assures you something is wrong. This is the crux.  I will try not to get too technical.  The trouble is that the Church has created a rhetoric and a culture which makes you to feel as though you lost something when you really are gaining things.  When you recognize that the majority of Church members and for that matter Church curriculum writers, and Church leaders are in a earlier stage of development it becomes easy to see why our culture would be defensive in order to protect orthodoxy, certainty, and everyone fitting in and not challenging the status quo.  We have phrases like “wheat and tares” or “wheat and the chaff”, or “falling away”, or “slippery slope to apostasy”.  We are made uncomfortable by tough questions.  We don’t like our beliefs challenged.  And we certainly do not create a safe space in our faith for deeper thought and critical thinking.  But who can blame them?  They have not experienced this before.  Their faith works so well for them, just as it had for you only a short time ago.  Their pieces all fit and they know they are the chosen generation and  know with every fiber of their being that God is working so closely within their lives directly because of the religion they belong to.  Why would anyone open themselves up to having that which works so well and brings so much peace to being critically examined?  And so as you have progressed into another stage, others around you are left to feel threatened and to see your progress as its opposite…. regression. Only in the progressive stages can you grasp for the first time that faith is something more honorable than knowledge.  That doubt is the others side of the faith coin.  That real truth seeking will compel you to set down those things that only a short time ago were so obviously true.  You are a threat.  You are exhibiting the very traits they have been taught to see as losing something.  You have to shake that off.  You are growing.  You are progressing.  You are developing into deeper stages of being.  It is a positive.  Often early on people call it a crisis.  But there comes a moment when that word no longer is useful.  It is almost offensive.  Instead phrases like “faith journey”, “Faith reconstruction”, and “Faith transition” become more useful and point to a “Mighty Change” within you.  This cognitive dissonance at some point vanishes away and makes room for the development of your inner authority and ability to hold your own spiritual ground.  You begin to find joy in complexity and nuance, and begin to claim your own individual faith.   Literal vs Mystical: In earlier stages Literal interpretations are everything.  A literal Adam and a literal Eve in a literal Garden partaking of literal fruit and experiencing a literal fall in the very literal Missouri.   Noah is obviously real… duh.  The stories in their literal interpretation have a very limited scope of discussion and a very limited amount of application.  Something magical happens when you begin to grasp that many of these stories are likely not literal events with literal people experiencing them.  In this faith journey, I am guessing you are likely beginning to sense that these stories are something other than historically literal.  That there likely was no global flood, no talking donkey, and no tower from which all languages disseminated out from.  Your beginning to see that these stories may be figurative, mythical, allegorical, and perhaps plain and simple fiction.  I am also hoping you are beginning to see just how rich scripture can be once you see these other lenses in which to view holy writ.  The interpretations and meanings can become very deep and rich once the literal chains which these stories are bound by are loosed.  Jesus and his teachings have, for me, become more meaningful.  Stories like David and Goliath, Abraham and Isaac, and Moses and the Israelites begin to open up my mind to new thoughts and inspired understandings once I have made space in my mind for such heterodoxy, or unorthodox thinking.  Again are these stories real and literal?…..  Maybe…. probably not…… but again it doesn’t really matter.  What matters is that you have given yourself room to examine other paradigms and open to new modes of discovery. Wounded Church vs The Wounded Christ: Let me conclude with a comparison in order to offer some validation and some encouragement.  The Church is wounded.  It also is wounding others.  It prefers to hide and conceal those wounds.  It has clearly stated that it does not seek nor offer apologies.  Its LGBT approach is almost certainly contributing to LDS LGBT suicide and yet we brush off accountability and dismiss such discussion.  Church leaders make serious mistakes and yet the kind of acknowledgement or change seemingly only happens when the involved parties have long gone beyond the veil. This is very different than Christ.  In terms of seeking apologies Christ taught “Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.”  And in giving apologies Christ has taught “Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” Christ didn’t hide his wounds.  He offered them.  “Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.”.  Christ has set the example and I want you to know that I validate the real hurt the Church may have or currently is causing you.  Sadly it often falls short of Christ’s example.  I join with you and pray that they Church will come to a place where it authentically offers its wounds and asks us to thrust in thy hand.  I, like you, pray for a day when the Church can apologize for its wrongs.  I too pray for the Church to be more open to real sincere truth seeking rather than giving lip service to it in the name of keeping the masses comfortable.  But in spite of all the church’s weaknesses and flaws we must remember it is pointing us to Christ.  It is Christ whom we should emulate and follow and whose opinion we should concern ourselves. Paul stated “Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.”  I validate the Church is for many a burden and it would be easy to simply go somewhere else.  It is my hope that you might consider staying and seeing this through.  That this can truly be the narrow path and that this church even in its flaws can be true and living. My Testimony: I know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.  I know because when I am striving to live those gospel ideals like faith, hope, charity, service, and sacrifice in my life I feel connected to something bigger than me. I have a deep faith in what I will call God.  Faith that there is something bigger out there that has influence in the world for good. I believe in Jesus Christ.  Not that he is historical but that the Christ of faith is worthy of my emulation.  He is worthy of my conversation.  He is worthy of my adoration.  Whether historical or not I have truly been affected by his grace and mercy. I know the book of Mormon is true.  Again not that it is a historical depiction of real people and real events but rather that it is scripture or in other words it is a sacred text accepted by my tribe and me as a book we shall call holy and one that invites us to interact with the divine.  I personally have had interactions with the divine through that sacred book.   For me it is truly scripture and worthy of being called such. I have faith in the restoration, that divine gifts have truly been restored to me through Mormonism. I hope in Joseph Smith.  I hope he was sincerely seeking God.  I hope he found that God he was seeking.  I hope God in some way is pleased with the offering Joseph submitted for future generations.  I hope in Prophecy, Seeing, and Revelation today as it truly offers the solutions to present ills in our faith. Lastly I have a knowledge that as we live in the tension as a people we can move towards Zion.  In the sacred name of Jesus Christ May the Lord warm your shoulders, Bill Reel The post 235: What My Faith Journey Taught Me appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we dissect a talk given at BYU on July 12th 2016 by Michael Goodman.  He talks about the proper way to seek truth.  There is much in this talk to be praised and I think Brother Goodman moves the ball in a positive direction.  That said I also think there are several flawed ideas within it that we find ourselves swimming in at the very present.  We dissect his talk and praise where I think he is helpful and empathetic and offer perspective where I think he missing the mark. https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/michael-a-goodman_way-truth-life/ The post 234: Truthseeker appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we tell a true story about a fascinating Chicken named Mike.  There are several points to such a tale.  False Assumptions, doubting that things are possible, perspective on Shiz from the Book of Mormon, and lastly the idea that too many of us Mormons turn our brains off when we go to Church.  Today in honor of each of these we tell the incredible story of Miracle Mike.  The reading comes straight from the first link.  Enjoy http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/running-ponies/meet-miracle-mike-the-chicken-who-lived-for-18-months-without-his-head/ http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34198390 http://time.com/3524433/life-with-mike-the-headless-chicken-photos-of-a-famously-tough-fowl/ http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/07/the-chicken-who-lived-without-his-head-for-18-months/   http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/reverence-for-the-bible   The post 233: Miracle Mike appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today I sit down with Jon Ogden, author of “When Mormons Doubt: A Way To Save Relationships And Seek A Quality Life”.  We talk about his own journey as well as the book.  We discuss his premise that Truth and Beauty are different and that truth is often confused for beauty and that each has there own path to discovery. https://www.amazon.com/When-Mormons-Doubt-Relationships-Quality-ebook/dp/B01D7T93CQ       The post 232: Jon Ogden – When Mormons Doubt appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today we sit down with Corbin Volluz and discuss the nuts and bolts of the Adam/God Doctrine.  We talk about what Brigham taught, How widely it was taught and implemented, How Leaders and apologists have attempted to explain it, and How leaders have attempted to make it disappear.  Once you understand this issue in full it becomes clear that the Church has no choice but to eventually own up and acknowledge Prophets can and have taught false Doctrine and grappling with truth and error is a much more difficult process then we have let on. Corbin has a blog post that also details the effort to make this teaching disappear.  It is found here on rational Faith’s Blog Corbin Volluz lives western Washington state. He has been practicing law for 23-years with a focus on criminal defense and personal injury. Corbin joined the LDS Church in June of 1978, shortly after the lifting of the priesthood ban, and has been studying Mormonism ever since. He has been published in several venues, including the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies and BYU-Studies. RESOURCES http://www.mormonthink.com/QUOTES/adamgod.htm http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Repudiated_concepts/Adam-God_theory https://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/colton/personal/lds/adamisgod.htm https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1976/10/our-own-liahona?lang=eng http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech8.htm http://mit.irr.org/adam-god-doctrine http://www.fairmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2011/11/2009_Brigham_Youngs_Teachings_On_Adam.pdf http://www.aliveonline.com/ldspapers/AdamGod.pdf https://dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V15N01_16.pdf http://www.adamgod.com/ https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2015/01/MF0176.pdf The post 231: The Adam God Historical Subterfuge appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

When we think of issues that are barriers to faith, we often think of issues such as Joseph Smith’s Treasure Digging, the Book of Abraham, Stones & Hats, and Prophetic Errors…. yet for me the two biggest are a Global/Local Flood and the Tower of Babel.  We talked about the flood in episode #142 and today we talk about the tower of Babel.  While apologists are wanting us to edge carefully into a mythical interpretation, Mormonism officially demands a literal view.  In my perspective either angle begs so many questions and compels us to step further into the darkness where faith’s rubber hits the road. The post 230: Tower Of Babel appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Today We discuss the Anti-Christ Korihor in Alma Ch. 30.  We talk about half truth that he teaches, Korihor’s illegal arrest, the value of some of what he said, and what differentiated his doubt and behavior and sign seeking from that of Thomas in the New Testament.    Thanks for listening!!!! The post 229: Team Korihor appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

To the Orthodox Believer who thinks that outside Joseph Smith’s leg surgery that we know very little.  This gets more complex than that.  We actually know a lot more about Joseph’s youth and some of his experiences.  We hope you enjoy this chance to better understand the early life of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Most of us know the basic story.  Joseph was born in Sharon Vermont on Dec 23, 1805.  His parents Lucy Mack Smith and Joseph Smith Senior.  They were the parents of 11 children (two of the children died soon after birth), of which Joseph was the 5th. We have all likely heard the story of Joseph Smith’s leg surgery.  Around the age of 8 Joseph contracted what he called Typhus Fever and a infection settled in the bone of his leg.  Several procedures were done by nearby physicians to relieve the pain and swelling but the infection continued to get worse and amputations seemed like the only recourse.  Through the tender mercies of God, the only physician capable of doing the procedure that cured young Joseph happened to be residing nearby.  a Doctor Nathan Smith who had been developing a new procedure to treat such bone afflictions was called upon and his procedure saved Joseph Smith’s leg and perhaps his life.  More can be read about the surgery HERE & HERE & HERE & HERE That said there are many other experiences in the life of Joseph that we as members discuss very little that likely had a much bigger impact on his life and future role as Prophet of this dispensation.  Let go over some of these. 1.) The extreme likely hood that Joseph Smith Sr. and some of his boys were Water Witchers and knew the craft of using a diving rod. Most readers of Church history will pick out that the Smith boys and their father were often called upon to dig wells.  We often never consider the gravity of this in a time long before the use of electronic equipment to reveal where various compunds and materials are underneath the earth.  To dig a well was hard work and took some time.  If one were to select the wrong place to dig, days would be wasted and energy spent in vain.  Hence it was crucial to know where that water was.  Those who dug wells in Joseph day often located water with the use of a diving rod. We have four witness in the historical sources who say that Joseph was taught by his father how to use a divining rod around the age of 11.   Oliver Cowdery also appeared to have this gift and Joseph dictated a revelation to Oliver that discusses Olivers use of a Water Witching Rod. Please see LDS official source HERE. Even today many farmers and well diggers still insist on using such a method to “divine” where water is located before digging. 2.) Joseph associated with “Scryers” in the palmyra area and becomes a scryer himself who expands beyond locating water. A Scryer is defined one who uses divination to discover hidden knowledge, item, or percieves future events; especially by means of a crystal ball.  Surprisingly there were several scryers in the palmyra area.  One of those was Luman Walters.  Luman was born around 1789.  Perhaps as early as 1818 and certainly by the early 1820’s he is residing in Ontario County, NY just a mere 22 miles away from the Smith family.   Multiple witnesses tell of Luman’s Walters treasure digs in an effort to locate buried treasure beneath the earth.  It is believed by Mormon Scholar D. Michael Quinn that Luman Walters served in a sort of mentor role to Joseph Smith when it came to scrying and “treasure digging” or searching for buried treasure beneath the earth and several historical sources speak to this.  Joseph associated with other scryers as well, such as Sally Chase, Jack Belcher, Hiram Page, Chauncey Hart, William Stafford, Joshua Stafford, Samuel T Lawerence, and others.  Some of these individuals eventually joined the LDS Church and some played prominent roles in it’s history. 3.) Joseph gets his first Seer Stone in 1819, before the First Vision Sally Chase who we have already mentioned was a scryer.  She had a green translucent seer stone and Joseph in an effort to find a seer stone for himself asked to use hers.  Looking into her green stone he was able to locate a seer stone 150 miles away buried near a tree. Going to the place perceived in his mind and proceeding to dig, Joseph located his first seer stone, A whitish opaque stone which he used to in his early days as a “seer” hence the term “seer stone”. 4.) Joseph gets his second seer stone in 1822 before his first visit from Moroni. Joseph came into possession of his second seer stone by locating it while digging a well with Willard Chase (Sally Chase’s brother).  Wilford Woodruff says Brigham Young shared with him and others how Joseph located this stone. “Preside[n]t Young also said that the seer stone which Joseph Smith first obtained He got in an Iron kettle 25 feet under ground. He saw it while looking in another seers stone which a person had. He went right to the spot & dug & found it” (Wilford Woodruff’s journal, 5:382-83). Willard Chase who was there also tells us In the year 1822, I was engaged in digging a well. I employed Alvin and Joseph Smith …. We discovered a singularly appearing stone …. Joseph put it into his hat, and then his face into the top of his hat.  After obtaining the stone, he began to publish abroad what wonders he could discover by looking in it …. I ordered the stone to be returned to me again. He had it in his possession about two years.  Some time in 1825, Hiram came to me, and wished to borrow the same stone …. I told him if he would pledge me his word and honor, that I should have it when called for, he might take it. Later in Life Willard also disputes who was the rightful owner of the stone In the fall of 1826, a friend called upon me and wished to see that stone …. On going to Smith’s, and asking him for the stone, he said, “you cannot have it;” I told him it belonged to me, repeated to him the promise he made me, at the time of obtaining the stone: upon which he faced me with a malignant look and said, “I don’t care who in the Devil it belongs to, you shall not have it.” As late as 1830 Willard was still making attempts to get the stone into his possession. It is this stone that is almost certainly the one Joseph used to translate most if not all of the Book of Mormon we have today. 5.)  Joseph Smith and his brothers became very involved in Treasure Digging The Smith family practiced various types of scrying.  Water Witching, or the location of water using a diving rod.  Helping friends and neighbors locate lost items by putting a seer stone into a hat and burying one’s face into the hat to help locate the lost item.  But at some point the Smiths and others in the neighborhood also are involved in “Treasure Hunting” or “Treasure Digging”.  The practice involved the belief that there were treasures such as Spanish gold that were buried underground.   These treasures were often believed to have been protected by guardian spirits and that the spirits could move the treasure if the rituals were not practiced exactly as they were proscribed.   Often Joseph was the scryer on these digs meaning that he was the one telling the group where the treasure was buried.  He did this by placing his seer stone in a hat and burying his face in the hat to exclude all light.  We have several historical accounts of those involved in these treasure digs in Palmyra reporting that as they were digging for the treasure Joseph would tell them the treasure was slipping further into the earth.  These rituals at times included the drawing of magic circles, likely animal sacrifices including dogs, and guardian spirits.  We have accounts of those involved saying that Joseph remarked that there were spirits protecting the treasure and one account even describes the guardian spirit as a “throat slit Spaniard”.  Emma Smith’s cousin Hiel and Joseph Lewis reported “He [Joe Smith] said that by a dream he was informed that at such a place in a certain hill, in an iron box, were some gold plates with curious engravings, which he must get and translate, and write a book; that the plates were to be kept concealed from every human being for a certain time, some two or three years; that he went to the place and dug till he came to the stone that covered the box, when he was knocked down; that he again attempted to remove the stone, and was again knocked down; this attempt was made the third time, and the third time he was knocked down. “Then he exclaimed, “Why can’t I get it?” or words to that effect; and then he saw a man standing over the spot, which to him appeared like a Spaniard, having a long beard coming down over his breast to about here, (Smith putting his hand to the pit of his stomach) with his (the ghost’s) throat cut from ear to ear, and the blood streaming down, who told him that he could not get it alone; that another person whom he, Smith, would know at first sight, must come with him, and then he could get it. And when Smith saw Miss Emma Hale, he knew that she was the person, and that after they were married, she went with him to near the place, and stood with her back toward him, while he dug up the box, which he rolled up in his frock” (Amboy Journal, Amboy, Illinois, 24, 30 Apr. 1879). 6.) There were several treasure dig sites including the hill Joseph called Cumorah where the plates were eventually revealed. While Joseph tried to downplay his treasure digging activities even going so far as to say when asked about it Was not Joseph Smith a money digger? Yes, but it was never a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it. (Joseph speaking in the third person) – Joseph Smith, Elders’ Journal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints [Kirtland, Ohio] 2 no. 3 (July 1838), 43. Also reproduced in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 120; History of the Church 3:29; Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 271. Joseph seemed uncomfortable talking much about this part of his youth but the the depth and breadth of his being involved is much more than a few small endeavors. Dan Vogel a well respected scholar of Mormon history has written a detailed article detailing what we know about the various treasure digging sites.  It appears that there may be approximately 18 sites, give or take.  Included is a photo listing the sites. At least one of these digs appears to have taken place on the hill called “Cumorah” by Joseph in 1825.  And these digs were extensive as the photo from the Mormon Hill dig that follows depicts 7.)  Joseph was to take someone with him to retrieve the plates and that person was not originally Emma. When Moroni spoke to Joseph, he informed him that he would need to bring someone with him to the Hill Cumorah to retrieve the plates.  Moroni even told him who that person was…. Joseph’s older brother Alvin.  The problem though is that Alvin’s dies before the date arrives.  Moroni again visits with Joseph and informs him that since Alvin has died the person he needs to bring is another Palmyra scryer Samuel T Lawrence.  But soon after Joseph changes his mind or is informed by Moroni that the actual right person to bring is Emma Hale. 8.) Many of Palmyra’s scryers were working against Joseph to try and get the plates from him On the night Joseph got the plates from the hill on September 21st 1827, Joseph Smith Sr. was sent to spy on Samuel Lawrence’s house until dark. Joseph recovers plates with Emma at midnight. Ten to twelve money diggers are working with Willard Chase. Chase sends for his own conjurer (Samuel Lawrence) to determine where the plates are hidden. Conjurers, including Sally Chase with her green glass and another diviner brought in from sixty miles away (Samuel Lawrence according to Lucy Mack Smith), tried to locate the plates by the stone. To elude Chase and Lawrence, Joseph moved the plates from the hearth to the cooper’s shop in the yard where Joseph Smith, Sr. carried on his trade. He buried the box under a floorboard and hid the plates themselves in a pile of flax in the shop loft. That night, Willard Chase and his sister, Sally Chase (with her green glass), came with their friends to search. They rummaged around outside but did not come in. Lucy learned later that Sally Chase told the men the plates were in the coopering shop. The next morning, the Smiths found the floor torn up and the box smashed. To their relief, the plates were safely buried in the flax.  – Richard L. Bushman,Rough Stone Rolling 9.) While the critics want to paint Joseph as a fraud, Joseph’s reputation as a successful scryer is evidence that something more was going on. One simply needs to ask how Joseph Smith met Emma Hale?  The fact is that that Emma lived in Harmony PA and Joseph residing in Palmyra was almost 300 miles away.  The reason these two meet is that Josiah Stowell hires Joseph to head up a treasure dig in Harmony PA and Joseph stays with the Hales while employed by Stowell.  So why does Josiah Stowell travel 300 miles to hire Joseph Smith?  Lucy Mack Smith, the Prophet’s mother says that Josiah Stowell came all the way from Pennsylvania to see her son on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye. Below are instances where there seems to be some credibility to Joseph’s ability as a “seer” In the first place, he told me of this stone, and proposed to bind it on his eyes, and run a race with me in the woods. A few days after this, I was at the house of his father in Manchester, two miles south of Palmyra village, and was picking my teeth with a pin while sitting on the bars. The pin caught in my teeth, and dropped from my fingers into shavings and straw. I jumped from the bars and looked for it. Joseph and Northrop Sweet also did the same. We could not find it. I then took Joseph on surprise, and said to him–I said, ‘Take your stone.’ I had never seen it, and did not know that he had it with him. He had it in his pocket. He took it and placed it in his hat– the old white hat–and placed his face in his hat. I watched him closely to see that he did not look one side; he reached out his hand beyond me on the right, and moved a little stick, and there I saw the pin, which he picked up and gave to me. I know he did not look out of the hat until after he had picked up the pin. – Martin Harris Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” Martin then confessed that he wished to “stop the mouths of fools” who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them. – Martin Harris Josiah Stowel sworn: says that prisoner had been at his house something like five months; had been employed by him to work on farm part of time; that he pretended to have skill of telling where hidden treasures in the earth were by means of looking through a certain stone; that prisoner had looked for him sometimes; once to tell him about money buried in Bend Mountain in Pennsylvania, once for gold on Monument Hill, and once for a salt spring; and that he positively knew that the prisoner could tell, and did ‘possess the art of seeing those valuable treasures through the medium of said stone; that he found the [word illegible] at Bend and Monument Hill as prisoner represented it; that prisoner had looked through said stone for Deacon Attleton for a mine, did not exactly find it, but got a p— [word unfinished] of ore which resembled gold, he thinks; that prisoner had told by means of this stone where a Mr. Bacon had buried money; that he and prisoner had been in search of it; that prisoner had said it was in a certain root of a stump five feet from surface of the earth, and with it would be found a tail feather; that said Stowel and prisoner thereupon commenced digging, found a tail feather, but money was gone; that he supposed the money moved down. That prisoner did offer his services; that he never deceived him; that prisoner looked through stone and described Josiah Stowel’s house and outhouses, while at Palmyra at Simpson Stowel’s, correctly; that he had told about a painted tree, with a man’s head painted upon it, by means of said stone. That he had been in company with prisoner digging for gold, and had the most implicit faith in prisoner’s skill. – Josiah Stowel 10.) Joseph had at least three seer stones during his life and likely had others as well. He got his third known seer stone, a green stone, by Jack Belcher in Susquehanna Valley.  –  The Refiner’s Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844 page 151-152 In fact Brigham Young said Joseph had told him and others   “Every man who lived on the earth was entitled to a seer stone, and should have one, but they are kept from them in consequence of their wickedness, and most of those who do find one make evil use of it.” (Brigham Young’s journal, as quoted in Latter-day Millennial Star, 26:118,119) Once one knows the history of Joseph youth one can see that Joseph family were very involved with the mystical and “frontier magic”.  These ideas and beliefs were full of parallels to Moroni and the gold plates and likely played strongly into Joseph’s framework and perspective.  Even later after he has the plates and is translating using the Urim & Thummim, he eventually abandons those divine instruments instead returning to the seer stone in the hat that he had used comfortably for years to complete his translation of the Book of Mormon.  We are left to to discern where Joseph Frontier Magic ends and his Prophethood begins.  For the faithful we should see that Hoseph’s childhood is much more complex than we had been taught, none the less it plays a huge role in our having the Book of Mormon as seen by Emma Hale Smith’s quote which I leave you with “In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us” – (Emma Bidamon Smith interview, 1879, available in Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, Volume 1, p. 541)   Resources https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/bitstream/1807/27599/3/Parker_Stuart_AC_201103_PhD_thesis.pdf http://undergroundnotes.com/graphics7/Dialogue_V27N03_211.pdf exploringmormonism.com/palmyra-magic-timeline/ http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones http://fr.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Smith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luman_Walters   The post 228: A Nuanced View to Joseph Smith’s Youth appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

This one was painful to do.  Yet if we are ever going to become Zion we need to be able to honestly look at ourselves in the mirror.  Do we have the traits of an unsafe group?  Do we have a safe space for folks to develop faith within?  Today I tackle what general warning signs of a potentially unsafe and unhealthy group looks like and where Mormonism falls definitively short.  We may be the Lord’s authorized Church but we also have a lot of work to do…. Luckily as Elder Uchtdorf has noted, this restoration still has a lot of work to do.     Resources: http://www.enlightened-spirituality.org/Warning_signs_of_dysfunctional_cults.html http://s7.zetaboards.com/Haven_Forums/topic/1047617/1/ http://careynieuwhof.com/2016/03/6-signs-church-culture-toxic/ http://thomrainer.com/2015/06/anatomy-of-a-sick-church-10-symptoms-to-watch/ https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/64869/cultlike-behavior-geez-whoda-thunk?page=1&size=10 http://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html http://mycultlife.com/spiritual-abuse-2/definition-of-a-cult/   Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader. Followers feel they can never be “good enough”. The group/leader is always right. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible. Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower’s mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused–as that person’s involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as “persecution”. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided. Ten signs of a safe group/leader. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.     The post 227: Warning Signs of an Unsafe Group appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.