Mormon Discussion Podcast

The earliest account of the First Vision poses some conflict within Mormon Truth Claims about what Joseph Smith experienced and what was invented about the Founding event in Mormonism. If there is no First Vision, there is significant reason to believe the rest of Mormonism is on shaky ground. So how do apologists deal with the 1832 account of that First Vision and what does logic and common sense say about that. RESOURCES: https://www.ldsliving.com/a-closer-look-at-critiques-of-joseph-smiths-first-vision/s/92128 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1 https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Why_is_Joseph_Smith%27s_struggle_with_Satan_not_mentioned_in_the_1832_account_of_the_First_Vision%3F https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Was_Joseph_Smith%27s_First_Vision_Vision_set_in_heaven_or_on_earth%3F https://www.dropbox.com/s/ooewni4lmhdul9m/Rod%20Decker-Vogel-Peterson-2004.wmv?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/tooif2mz619x5h2/Brad%20Wilcox%201st%20Vision.mp4?dl=0 The post Mormonism LIVE: 063: First Vision Apologetics appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

BYU has a history of manipulating & pressuring its educators into consistently stopping short of teaching modern best accepted ideas and research. While it claims to be a university that values education what it really does it limit the critical thinking skills and works to prevent its students from having access to the best information. We start by discussing the modern moment where BYU has changed its policy around the worthiness of BYU and CES Educators to control what is taught in the classroom and then we dive deep into the past to show the more things change the more they stay the same. And lastly we demonstrate that agency really is a value that The Church’s mouth writes but their actions just aren’t cashing. A.) BYU’s (All of CES) New policy for its staff (Notice the Church speaks officially for BYU as it is one and the same) The old Wording vs the new wording The new policy is: “to hold and be worthy to hold a current temple recommend.” The Old policy is “ “accept as a condition of employment the standards of conduct consistent with qualifying for temple privileges” Friend and One of the Mole Professors I have on the inside of BYU. (We’ll call him Elder Dyches for anonymity) “Elder Dyches” told me that “Under that condition, I could tell my bishop I qualify, but am not interested in having a recommend and it wouldn’t affect my employment.” The permutations of such a change Gives more control to Salt Lake over local leaders and the CES staff those leaders have stewardship for as “worthiness issues arise in an employees behavior (AKA – Apostate Teachings in Seminary or BYU college classes Imagine Pressure to stay in line this adds.  Is it significant? Maybe not versus the old wording but it absolutely feels like additional undue influence.  BYU is simply looking for just cause AKA – breaking the “Worthiness Standard”.  Even if on a loophole that involves abusive underhanded methods intended to manipulate people into obedience and loyalty over conscience. B.) Which led me to wanting to share with you The 1911 Brigham Young University modernity controversy In 1907, then BYU president George H. Brimhall (No you silly gooses Elder Oaks wasn’t BYU president back then.  He’s not that old) began hiring a new group of faculty to increase the academic reputation of his school.  His goal “to include in [his] faculty … the best scholars of the church.” (Brimhall was 55 yr old) 1907 Joseph Peterson – Psychology (Joseph Peterson was the first Ph.D on the faculty of BYU) 1907 Henry Peterson – College of Education. 1908 Ralph Vary Chamberlin – Biology 1909 William Henry Chamberlin- Philosophy These were devout Mormons but who were sought out intentionally to bring the Church’s College approach into Modernity including increasing the intellectual atmosphere of the university and community.This led to these four facilitating discussion and debates on evolution and the Bible, and attempting  to convey that evolutionary ideas and Mormon theology were not mutually exclusive, but rather complementary These four professors were popular. They liberal ideas are being met with disapproval Horace H. Cummings, superintendent of the church schools (and largely self-educated) was deeply bothered by the non-approved curriculum being brought in. Church officials accused the professors of promoting heretical views. First Presidency of the LDS church, consisting of Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund (Around the beginning of 1910 the First Presidency asked Orson F Whitney to draft an official statement on “the Origin of Man”) It was decided that these men “were out of harmony with the brethren” and Horace H. Cummings offered the Petersons and Ralph Chamberlin a choice: alter their teachings or lose their jobs. Privately, Joseph B. Keeler told Ralph Chamberlin he could stay (His curriculum must have been pretty Vanilla), but he refused, as the Petersons weren’t given the same offer. Brimhall – “There are some people who predict the death of the college if these men go. I am ready to say that if the life of the college depends upon any number of men out of harmony with the brethren who preside over the church, then it is time for the college to die.” Ralph Chamberlin responded during the meeting between these four teachers and the School administration (which included 6 Church leaders) “If you can bring me one student whose faith I have injured in Mormonism, I will bring you five that you, through your narrowness, have driven out of the church. … I never gave a public lecture on evolution until I had consulted you as to whether it would be all right. You urged me to do it. Now, why have you changed suddenly?” Brimhall could only feebly joke, “Well, I’ll tell you, Brother Chamberlin, I know whi ch side my bread’s buttered on.” Unwilling to change their teachings, the Petersons and Ralph Chamberlin left the university in 1911, while William remained for another 5 years, resigning in 1916. The University of Utah in Salt Lake City had a similar controversy — what some at the time described as ‘a tempest in a teapot’ — erupted four years later in February 1915. There, the dismissals of two professors and two instructors by President Joseph T. Kingsbury — and the subsequent resignations of 14 faculty members in protest — launched the American Association of University Professors’ first institutional academic freedom inquest, spearheaded by AAUP founders Arthur O. Lovejoy and John Dewey. The 1911 BYU controversy — involving some of the same professors, including the Peterson brothers and the Chamberlins — led in part to the University of Utah debacle The BYU and University of Utah incidents were a big impetus for the passing of the 1915 declaration of principles on academic freedom and academic tenure Conclusion: The Salt Lake Tribunes many as 80 percent of the faculty sympathized with the Petersons and Chamberlin. When Joseph F. Smith was told that “a number of [Provo] merchants and others favoring the … teachers had withdrawn their patronage from the [White and Blue],” he “spoke up immediately and said that the First Presidency wanted no change in the paper’s policy and … [said] he would instruct [Zion’s Savings Bank] to keep the paper out of financial difficulties.” Smith also admonished his son, Andrew, a student at the high school adjoining BYU: “For my sake, my son, as well as your own[,] eschew the Petersons’ and Chamberlin’s evolution and all such things.” On 13 March over 100 undergraduates assembled on campus in a mass rally to “stand by their teachers.” The students distributed a petition “ratifying and endorsing the teaching of the professors, and praying for their retention by the Board of Trustees.” Of a total college enrollment of 114 undergraduates, as well as a handful of professors, over 90 students and faculty signed the statement, which both the Tribune and the Herald-Republican printed. Predictably, the Deseret News chastised the students for airing their criticisms in print, especially in the Tribune, while Brimhall publicly scolded them for “dictating” to the “prophets.” Brimhall discussing the issue with Reed Smoot – Throughout the following weeks, Brimhall was left to deal as best he could with dissatisfied faculty and students. In mid-May, he wrote again to Smoot, “I would be in perfect misery if I were not in harmony with those over me—I can stand it to be out of harmony with others. My policy has been to follow the interests of our faculty and also follow the interests of the student body, [but] I cannot be expected to follow either of the latter unless they are in perfect harmony with those above me.” Smoot replied supportively, “If the time ever comes that it is impossible for me to be in harmony with my presiding officer, I will quickly resign, if it involves any great principle affecting my conscience or my religious beliefs.” Joseph Keeler (a counselor to Brimhall in the BYU presidency) later asked, “Brother Chamberlin, why can’t you teach this subject the way we want it taught, [instead of] the way you’re teaching it?” Chamberlin replied, “I’m so constituted that I can’t teach what I don’t believe.” Following the controversy, many faculty and students were reluctant to discuss some “matters of scientific and sociological value [p.36]for fear of losing their positions and receiving the boycott of the church.” Others began asking if there were “any [other] doctrines of the church which [were] inconsistent with the commonly accepted conclusions of science.” School trustees approved a new teaching contract in October 1911 which required loyalty to church authorities as a condition of employment. Back to current moment The Voluntary adoption of the new policy Mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses –  “https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration –  Who is at the head of BYU (They are one and the SAME RESOURCES: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1911_Brigham_Young_University_modernism_controversy In 1911, a professor was fired from BYU for teaching evolution. 80% of student body signed a petition in the Salt Lake Tribune to save him. Today, BYU exhibit describes firing of highly qualified teacher as "righteous sacrifice." from exmormon 13) 3 BYU PROFESSORS: Why did President Joseph F. Smith dismiss three professors from Brigham Young University for teaching organic evolution? https://www.aaup.org/NR/rdonlyres/A6520A9D-0A9A-47B3-B550-C006B5B224E7/0/1915Declaration.pdf George H. Brimhall’s Legacy of Service to Brigham Young University https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Salt_Lake_Tribune/B._Y._U._Students_Destroy_Reply_of_the_Presidency_and_Make_Public_the_Protest_They_Formulated https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/07/can-unique-byu-really-be/ The Cyclical Nature of BYU’s Religious Education https://byu.us8.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2ba3f012bcd865407204981a0&id=b74a02af7a&e=f9fae89146 https://hrs.byu.edu/byu-employment-standard https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-educational-system-employment-standards-refinements https://hrs.byu.edu/byu-employment-standard https://news.byu.edu/announcements/a-message-from-president-worthen http://signaturebookslibrary.org/the-1911-evolution-controversy-at-brigham-young-university/ https://web.archive.org/web/20181013203310/https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/013-10-16.pdf https://biology.byu.edu/00000172-29e6-d079-ab7e-69efe5890000/byu-evolution-packet https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration Church Board of Education and Board of Trustees President Russell M. Nelson Chairman President Dallin H. Oaks First Vice Chairman President Henry B. Eyring Second Vice Chairman Elder Jeffrey R. Holland Board Member Elder D. Todd Christofferson Board Member Elder Paul V. Johnson Board Member Elder Michael T. Ringwood Board Member Bishop Gérald Caussé Board Member Sister Jean B. Bingham Board Member Sister Bonnie H. Cordon Board Member Brother Steven J. Lund Board Member R. Kelly Haws Secretary The post Mormonism LIVE: 062: BYU’s Fight Against Modernity Past & Present appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

RFM and Bill Reel sit down with Dan Vogel and Brent Metcalfe on this week’s episode of Mormonism LIVE ! And you aren’t going to believe the stories these two have. The post Mormonism LIVE: 061: Vogel & Metcalfe In Da HOUSE ! appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Tonight’s episode delves into the recent addition to Mormonism LIVE, Maven. Maven recently joined RFM and Bill Reel as the show manager. She does all the dirty work and increases the shows production value and from time to time she adds a powerful informed female voice to the show. Up until now she has remained anonymous and tonight Maven will be for the first time stepping out of anonymity and introduce herself to the audience helping them better get to know her. The post Mormonism LIVE: 060: The Unmasking of Maven appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Mormon Discussion: 361: Revisiting my Understanding of the First Vision I wanted to sit down and have a conversation with you about how I learned, understood, and contextualize various topics within Mormonism. In this episode we do that around the First Vision RESOURCES: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V47N02_210.pdf https://youtu.be/Uj2VWhuW50w?t=2795 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-summer-1832/1 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/magazines/before-2021/new-era?lang=eng The post Mormon Discussion: 361: Revisiting my Understanding of the First Vision appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

RFM and Bill Reel sit down with Kelly Whited Jones and Jana Spangler to dive into the history and current standing of Women and the Equal Rights Amendment and specifically that history within Utah and the Mormon Church. Resources: utaheracoalition.org The post Mormonism LIVE: 059: The Equal Rights Amendment and Utah appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Playing off of last week’s “Two Hills Cumorah” episode we investigate the claim of a “2nd Watson letter”. What we find is not only more apologist obfuscations but perhaps one of the biggest underhanded maneuvers LDS apologists have ever pulled off. The post Mormonism LIVE: 058: Mormon Apologist Skullduggery – The Mystery of the Second Watson Letter appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

How Elevation Emotion is used as a trump card and corrupted by giving it a new name, that of “The Holy Ghost” The post Mormon Discussion: 360: The Holy Ghost as a Trump Card appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

RFM and Bill Reel tackle the two Hills Cumorah theory. The explain how Cumorah fits within our scriptures, show us how it was understood and taught all through early Church history and when in the modern times it changed and how that course adjustment has the Church approaching it today. To the believers who always wished for these things to be simple and faithful, eat your heartlander out ! IMAGES FOR SHOW   https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/collection/bmvl-moroni-10-images?lang=eng OPENING: Heartlanders digging for Evidence (Don’t want to spend valuable time here. Just show and explain it led me to create this episode) A.) What the Scriptures Tell us about Cumorah   Mormon 6:4 – we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains – SHOW MAP OF PALMYRA SURROUNDING AREA (It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains.)   Mormon 6:6 –  Mormon hid the records in the Hill Cumorah with the exception of the plates that would make up the Book of Mormon PHOTO   Ether 15:11 – The Jaredites hill Ramah and the Nephites Hill Cumorah are the same hill (He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly atwo millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.) PHOTO LOGISTICS OF A BATTLE THIS BIG   D&C 128:20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed PHOTO   B.) What early Church Leaders and Official sources said about The Hill Cumorah in New York   History of the Church 1:184 “This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county.   PHOTO 1835 Messenger and Advocate – Page 4 Oliver Cowdery under Joseph Smith declares Cumorah is the hill in New York (Joseph Smith had the letter reprinted )   PHOTO The Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon. History of the Church  History of the Church, 1948 ed., vol. 2, pp. 79–80  PHOTO   David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Joseph Smith are visited by Moroni – Moroni says Cumorah as the word is new to David  (Tangential point.  David Whitmer says his plowed was field and he didn’t know who did it.  Lucy Mack Smith though claims David knew it was the three nephites page 4 bottom left) page 4 right hand side  PHOTO   Mark E. Petersen, “A Work of Conversion,” General Conference address, in Messages of Inspiration (SLC: Deseret Book Co., 1957), pp. 98-106. I do not believe that we should give credence to the highly speculative theories about Book of Mormon geography. I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates. (Last part of Page 3) PHOTO   Doctrines of Salvation by: Joseph Fielding Smith http://www.mormonthink.com/backup/Cumorah-JFeS-DofS3.pdf  PHOTO   https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1360&context=jbms All of the quotes regarding Cumorah’s Cave.  I want to synopsize because there is too much here and deeply overlapping PHOTO   Anthony W Ivins (Counselor First Presidency) General Conference talk in April 1928 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0zan98tml1mr4kq/conferencereport1928a%20%20page%2015.pdf?dl=0  (Page 12 of the PDF)    PHOTO   The Messenger, July 1960, No. 51   (COVER) (Page w/ pertinent section) Bishops “Attention Called To ‘Book of Mormon’ Maps” Our attention has been brought in the past few weeks to certain “Book of Mormon Lands” maps which are being offered to Church leaders and auxiliary workers by a California organization. They are apparently being distributed free of charge. We wish to refer bishops to the printed matter at the bottom of the map, which contains an inference that there are two, rather than one, Hills Cumorah — one in Mexico as well as the one in New York. The Church has never accepted this contention. Bishops are requested to make cognizant of this discrepancy those in their wards who might be sending for these maps or using them for instructional purposes. This concept of two Cumorahs should not be taught as official Church doctrine.(WOULD LOVE A IMAGE OR DOCUMENT)   Official Letterhead 1990 Letter   F. Michael Watson – Context of that letter (Frank Michael Watson was a secretary to the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from 1986 to 2008. He was assistant secretary from 1972 until April 1986. Prior to that call, he served as assistant secretary and then secretary to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (1970–1972). He was called to serve in the First Quorum of the Seventy in April 2008 and served until October 2013 when he was designated an emeritus general authority.) Fair Claims “The First Presidency’s secretary apparently answered a question according to his own understanding”   C. Something Changed   What changed in Mormonism Environment – The events including number of deaths and the supplies present in the Book of Mormon simply doesn’t match what has been located on that hill – Views seem to change in the 1940’s and 1950’s 1992 Encyclopedia of Mormonism Last paragraph and subsequent finish on next page F. Michael Watson’s Second Letter 1993 “He (F. Michael Watson)  responded that the First Presidency would like to clear up that Issue and he would FAX me with that clarification.” LINK to this message Similar message from official channels    John Clark 2004 – “the Hill Cumorah. Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. No artifacts, no walls, no trenches, no arrowheads. The area immediately surrounding the hill is similarly clean. Pre-Columbian people did not settle or build here. This is not the place of Mormon’s last stand. We must look elsewhere for that hill.”   D.) The Church in the present modern moment   New Approach Hill Cumorah as defined by the Church ““In the 1820s, the hill did not have a name. It later became known as the Hill Cumorah because Moroni, the Book of Mormon’s final author and the angel who met with Joseph Smith, wrote that he had hidden the golden plates in a hill called Cumorah (see Mormon 6:6)”   Still old remnants of the old approach Hill Cumorah Photo   Cumorah, Hill Poem to be read at the end  PHOTO to show while I read RESOURCES: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rochester,+NY/@43.3706202,-78.7467864,7.74z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d6b3059614b353:0x5a001ffc4125e61e!8m2!3d43.1565779!4d-77.6088465  (MAP OF NY AREA –  https://sites.google.com/site/bomgeography/discoveries/fountains-that-spray-no-water  (What Fountain mean) http://www.mormonthink.com/backup/Cumorah-JFeS-DofS3.pdf  https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/elder-curtis-hill-cumorah-preservation  “These sacred events are central parts of what the Church calls the Restoration, an ongoing process of God revealing key truths to men and women on earth.”  #3 – Upgrade the messaging of the hill’s historical and sacred significance https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1367&context=jbms  Https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/where-is-the-location-of-the-hill-cumorah https://doctrineandcovenantscentral.org/knowhy/where-is-the-location-of-the-hill-cumorah/ http://ldsarchaeology.com/cumorah/where-is-the-hill-cumorah/ https://debunking-cesletter.com/book-of-mormon-1/hill-cumorah-location/ https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Geography/New_World/Hill_Cumorah http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm https://podcastaddict.com/episode/37201863 https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/the-book-of-mormon/hill-cumorah/ https://knowhy.bookofmormoncentral.org/knowhy/where-is-the-location-of-the-hill-cumorah https://www.google.com/maps/place/Hill+Cumorah+Visitors’+Center/@43.0275235,-77.7122062,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x416565d22288af00!8m2!3d43.0069794!4d-77.2259677  (Many Waters, Rivers and Fountains) https://daytrippingroc.com/natural-swimming-areas-around-rochester/  (39 natural swimming holes) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/learn/historic-sites/new-york/hill-cumorah?lang=eng (carefully worded) https://sites.google.com/site/bomgeography/internal-map/new-world-commentary/h/hill-ramah  https://www.dropbox.com/s/hqork9sw7bnpe7b/Resurrecting_Cumorah_The_Semi_Limited_Me.pdf?dl=0 https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/the-books/the-book-of-mormon/hill-cumorah/ http://www.moronisamerica.com/nevilles-summary-post/ https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1357&context=jbms http://www.salamandersociety.com/library/the_golden_bible-m_t_lamb.pdf  The post Mormonism LIVE: 057: The Two Hills Cumorah Theory appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.

Bill Reel sits down with Jared Anderson to discuss the inner work of Transformation. Along the way they hit on ideas of Consciousness, Tools that alter consciousness, human development, spiral dynamics, Men’s work, and leaving unhealthy systems. They cover a lot of ground and the conversation is insightful. If you wish to contact Jared you can email him at jaredandersoncoaching@gmail.com or visit his website linked below.  You can watch the video version of this episode here https://youtu.be/a4LcQx88wj0 RESOURCES: https://www.jaredandersoncoaching.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYSQ1NF1hvw https://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/about-sdi/integral-theory/ The post Mormon Discussion: 359: Jared Anderson – Consciousness, Transformation, and Men’s Work appeared first on Mormon Discussion by Bill Reel.