Owner To Owner Podcast

@MelinaMorrison #CEO @bccmau (Business Council of Cooperatives and Mutuals) has championed, advocated and made the case for #mutuals and #cooperatives for more than 20 years.  She passionately believes in this way of doing business and in this epsiode we get to hear her make a compelling case. She is also currently a member of the @IAG (Industry Advisory Group)  on #FarmCooperatives. Prior to @bccmau she was a founding director of Social Business Australia.In our discussion we get a comprehensive overview into the how's and why's of #mutuals and #cooperatives and cover;the very long history#romantimes was the first idea of #insurance or #poolingriskthe word divvy, dividend or divvying came from #Cooperative#coops date back to the middle of the 18th century when people;got interested in coming together and forming financial services institutions, which became #CreditUnions #buildingsocieties, and now they're called #MutualBanks, andpeople needing to be able to collectively bargain for themselves, collectively buy things just to stay #sustainable and we got the consumer Cooperative movement arising.why #cooperatives and #mutuals are having a resurgencethe #competitiveadvantages are being of a #cooperativea really clear explanation of the practical differences in the #purpose of a #cooperative (as against for traditional #shareholdermodels):owners are the members (so the people that use the business either as a consumer or a producer,  or receive a product or service from the business are also the owners)#cooperatives make money to do something and not the other way aroundit's not so much a business model that's about doing something just to make moneyas a joint owner you have a democratic right to have a joint voice and decision making say in the businesshow all businesses now have to have a #sociallicence to operate - it's the new #Zeitgeist#stakeholdercapitalism#profitwithpurposethe seven internationally agreed principles in a #cooperative #constitution that relate to the purpose of the business;making sure that members are benefiting from the business, but also all of the other stakeholders around the business;caring for the communitybeing interested in and benefiting the #environment or the #community in which you operatebeing open and transparent and accountable making sure that there is joint democratic decision-making and allowing for the democratic and the economic participation of the members.#sharedbenefit and #sharedrisk#cooperatives today as a globally dominant form of running #supermarkets, #retail and marketing operations where they're owned by members and consumers rather than shareholders#disruptivecapitalism#enlightenedcapitalismrailing against #corporate #monoculture so we have an economy that has a rich #ecosystem of different types of businesses#competition between #businessmodels, as well as #competition between #businessesavoiding a concentration of #capital and #power where get more #cartelpricingwhy cooperation is a really powerful form of making a more productive, efficient, and #sustainableeconomywhy as a bottom-up model it's so good for #smallbusiness@marnieroberts @winegrapes@OceanSpray as a classic example of #Global #MarketingBrands under which #Cooperative existthe numbers - 8 to 10 Australians are members of at least one Cooperativeone of Australia's largest #agbiz,  a consortium or a collaboration of around 4,000 family farms is @CBHGroup (a  #WesternAustralian #grainexporter)#CreditUnions #MutualBanks #motoringmutuals - @racv @racq#healthservices #nonprofit #healthfundsthe need for and interest in #CommunityBuyBacks in #RegionalAustralia when people can't get the goods or services, or there's a social and economic need that the market won't deliver#target #Cootamundracooperatively own #pubs and #breweries - @AireysInletpub  @renmarkhotel in #SAminimum commercial infrastructure for viable townsthe @bccm.coop toolkit - a one-stop shop of self-help resourcesjointly community-owned #renewableenergy assets like @HepburnWindlocal renewable energy#FightbackFarmers #iview #abcwww.kerrcapital.com.au Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@JamesGarland is a Director at @DGB. He has a long-standing involvement in #fundraising in the #notforprofit area and #branddevelopment.He's also a #smallbusiness #owner and #investor.Dalton Garland Blanchard a boutique agency that works strictly with #forpurpose organizations and groups, large and small, including #startups that have plans to really transform themselves in the communities that they serve. DGB undertakes  #transformationalprojects. Larger scale, more complex growth projects, that help to build #organisationalcapacity.  DGB help with #fundraising for those projects.In our discussion we talk about;leaving #university and entering the  world of #advertising #marketing #mediasales #agencies #campaigns #promotionsIiving in #london and having a #careerdefining moment from working with a charity involved #childsafety, part of a #UKgovernment program called "Personal, Social, Health Education"#mum asking  "What are you doing? It sounds really interesting. It's very different. It's not what I thought you would do. Is it what you really want to do?"finding a whole lot more #workmeaning in working with organizations and engaging my #passion and my skills in things that are #changingtheworld, or at least #changinglives of people, rather than #sellingwhitegoods or something elsethe #business of #notforprofit#socialenterprise#thirdsector #privatesector #publicsectorconnecting with the passion of the #whyworking at @worldvision @savethechildrenhis sense that everyone is starting to realize that our #socialfabric and the #health of other people who are less fortunate actually impacts everybody, that we are in #onebigworldthe estimated (@deloitte) $100B size of the "third sector"the real #impact of the #thirdsector (not really about #finance or #economics) is on people, the #environment, on animalswhy the #thirdsector should really be the #firstsectorhow #innovations are really big drivers of some of the #coolest not-for-profit movements that are coming outregeneration of environment as a real hotbed for innovation, people talking about #plastics in the #cleanocean #cleanerworldthe need for #socialenterprises to make a profit so it can support either its supply chain, or employeesthe importance of #valuesalignment in #socialenterprise and who starts it, who runs it, who works in it, and who carries it forward #successionwhat happens when social enterprises become so successful - they become brands in their own right, they become really well-known, they become sought-after entities or businesses. The conundrum for #founders when this occursthe key day to day challenges in the #thirddsector;finding employees - really good, highly skilled people who can build relationshipsmatching the private sectorfundingthe pivotal role of the #thirdsector - doing what #government can't - taking risks that government and #privatesector can'twhy sometimes #failing as a natural outcome of trying to alleviate social issues because you can't roll out a #lowrisk private-style business plan to deal with major societal issues#foundations @cathyfreeman has done a huge amount of work for #indigenous #kids and #communities#scaling for #impact#sophisticatedinvestors#sophisticated #philanthropists#goodcorporates quietly funding #multimilliondollar transformational projects, some not heavily publicised at all and done because that organisation believes in something that it's a line with their #mission#worldchange and a #fairersociety is going to have to come at the cost of hard profits at some point - and the #hope that because people that have had success or intergenerational wealth are more attuned to social need than ever before  these #sophisticatedphilanthropists will make the differencewhy #gettinginvolved in #communityactivities is highly rewarding for self, and never more important than now because of the #mentalhealth benefits it can bring #selfless #senseofself@kerrcapitalA full transcript is below.Michael Kerr: Hi. It's Michael Kerr here, presenting Small Business Banter.A healthy micro and small business sector means a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success.I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advisors to business owners.Each week, I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert, and they share their stories, their lived experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own business.Small Business Banter is brought to you from the studios of 104.7 Gippsland FM and is heard across Australia on the Community Radio Network. Thanks also to Kerr Capital, supporters of the show. Okay. Welcome to another edition of Small Business Banter radio. Today's guest, James Garland. James, the Director at the DGB group, he'll tell you what DGB group does, but he's also had a long-standing involvement in fundraising in the not-for-profit area, brand development. He's also got some personal interest in small businesses and investments. What we're going to chat about today is the business of the not-for-profit social enterprise, third sector. We're really looking forward to this chat, welcoming James. James Garland: Hey, Michael. How are you doing?Michael: Excellent. Thanks for calling in from a car, somewhere in Regional Victoria.James: No problem. I spent a fair bit of time here, so it's often a car call. Michael: Yeah. The sound is coming through really nicely. It's great to have you in. Look, I gave a really tight description. Do you want to expand a little bit more on your professional background, and also today, where you are with DGB group?James: Yeah, of course. I came out of university and went into the world of advertising, marketing, media sales, and working in agencies around State[?] campaigns, promotions, that side of the commercial world. I was over in London, working in an agency, doing live events, merchandising, marketing, and one of my clients was a charity involved in children's safety or child safety. I thought it might be a good thing while I'm away from home and tripping the light, fantastic across Europe, to maybe explore some different things in my career.I took a job that was offered as part of a big roll out by the UK government around what they call "Personal, Social, Health Education" for kids about being safe, and I just fell in love with it. I was young at the time. I was in my mid-20s, and I think a lot of people get into the not-for-profit or for-purpose sector a bit later in life, but it was really early for me. Out of what I thought would be a career in Commerce, I fell into the not-for-profit world really early, and I've been there ever since.Michael: It's a bit of a calling, was it?James: Well, I think I said to my mum, I remember she said, "What are you doing? It sounds really interesting. It's very different. It's not what I thought you would do. Is it what you really want to do?" I said, "Well, I'm finding a whole lot more meaning in working with organizations and engaging my passion and my skills in things that are changing the world, or at least changing the lives of people, rather than selling white goods or something else that, quite frankly, a well-loved[?] fridge." I really connected with the passion of the "Why?" while I was doing the work, and came back to Australia, took a contract at World Vision, Save the Children, worked at Cancer Research, a whole bunch of different not-for-profits on the inside, and loved them all. I went outside to the consulting side, and it's even better. You get to work with a dozen not-for-profits at any one time to, again, try and hopefully make the world a better place.Michael: Yeah. You really acted on something that came to you in your mid-20s which was something that you couldn't turn away. Working today in DGB across with not-for-profits and for-purpose businesses, what exactly does the DGB group do? James: Yeah. DGB is really, for guys who came out of advertising, naming it after the 3 principal directors is not exactly super creative, is it? Dalton Garland Blanchard, we're a really boutique agency. We strictly work with for-purpose organizations, so large and small, summer startups, some of the most exciting stuff in a sector's coming out of not-for-profit startup still. We work with those groups, specifically, that have plans to really transform themselves in the communities that they serve. We talk a lot abouttransformational projects, not so much your traditional tin rattling or, "Can you give us a gift this time at Christmas so that we can keep the lights on?" We work more so on a really larger scale, more complex growth projects, and our role is to help that organization build capacity, help them get ready, and help them carry out the fundraising for those projects.Michael: Okay, and bringing that experience you had in marketing and brand development to this sector, which I think, broadly, is called the "third sector" incorporating not-for-profit social enterprise, for-purpose. How big is the third sector, if that's the right term, at the moment?James: It's big. It's really big, and it's getting bigger off the back of what we've seen in the last few years. Everyone's starting to realize that our social fabric and the health of other people who are less fortunate, perhaps, than others, actually impacts everybody. We're in one, big world, and I don't think anyone could start. There's been a time, perhaps more prevalent than now, that everyone's really realizing that. We don't talk about the third sector much, but you're right. It is the sort of term, the "third sector", "private sector", "public sector", and then this "not-for-profit voluntary sector", but the contribution, economically.I think Deloitte did a study which was talking over $100 billion in Australia alone is the economic contribution of that sector, but I think the difference with that sector is that the impact is not really about finance or economics. It's actually about impact on people and the environment, on the world, on animals, on all sorts of things.It's interesting that we are now turning to needing the world to be a better place, in terms of climate, health, pandemics, and poverty, yet we call this sector the "third sector". Maybe it's the third thing that we've really cared about, but I don't know, maybe it should be the first sector [crosstalk] because if we don't have a planet to live on, private and public sectors doesn't mean much, does it?Michael: It certainly doesn't. It probably is an old term, but I was looking for something to collectively describe what you do, but it sounds like it's at a pretty exciting stage with the energy around startups. Would a lot of those startups call themselves social enterprises? If yes, can you describe what a social enterprise is and how it operates?James: Yeah, for sure. Definitely, social enterprises, it's more than a buzz. Perhaps I'll come back to that because some of these startups are just traditional not-for-profits that someone's got a great idea, or they innovate. Innovations are really big drivers of some of the coolest not-for-profit movements that are coming out.Regeneration of environment is big. In fact, environment's a real hotbed for innovation, people talking about plastics in the ocean and developing technologies that can create cleaner worlds, when obviously, some of that sits in biotech and agritech, and those sorts of industries. A lot of people do also go, "Hey, we've got a great idea. Instead of commercializing it, we're going to make a not-for-profit. We're going to allow everyone to invest in this and own it globally. Environments are great hotbeds for that at the moment.The social enterprise is kind of this next step in not being, a [inaudible] not-for-profit, because really, you want a social enterprise to make a profit. It's there to actually make a profit so it can support either its supply chain of fair trade coffee or the young people that it's giving a job to. It's different because it needs to be profitable, and it should be profitable. It's definitely getting a lot bigger, social enterprise. I think, fundamentally, the public wants all companies to have an element of social impact unconscious[?], and social enterprise is probably the peak of that, I guess, where all prophets, all outcomes, and all impacts go back to that social cause.Michael: Yes, it's a very clear purpose for that organization or that business if you like.James: Yeah.Michael: Yeah. I've certainly had some involvement in advising social enterprises and it's kind of what you said, it has to be a viable or sustainable business model because otherwise, all that energy, all that hope, it can all disappear if you don't have a fundamentally sound financial base. The social enterprise is kind of a blending of business and other objectives, and measures of success.James: Correct, yeah. I think you've got to have a values alignment around who starts it, runs it, works in it, and carries it forward. I think sometimes, social enterprises can be so successful, they become brands in their own right, they become really well-known, they become sought-after entities or businesses. Your values are going to hold true to, say, you could almost turn it into a retail chain, you could commercialize it. It's difficult because really, the function is there for what it is, a social enterprise. The people that are in it want them to be committed for the long term for it to remain that social enterprise piece.Michael: I think it could create a conundrum for the founders of these things because it is so successful, it does have value for other organizations. That's some of the experiences I've had with these founders, and they're unsure about how to take it forward.James: Totally.Michael: With the DGB group and the work you do, what you've acknowledged, it's a very significant sector. Did I have the same set of issues that for-profit businesses have? At the end of the day, are they struggling under finding employees and other day-to-day challenges that business faces?James: Yeah, massively. I'd suggest even more so, in particular, in the area of growth of business. If you're looking to recruit people under an award for community services or disability, generally, there's hardships in recruiting those people also, but certainly on the side of the work that we do around big transformational projects, project management, we're putting a different type of business case together for any one of these organizations, and they need really good, highly skilled people internally, who can build relationships much like some of your work around capital and advisory. You're dealing with sophisticated people that want to invest in social change. You need some pretty savvy people. We see a massive shortage of really good, savvy, articulate, strong relationship builders in the sector. The good ones get snapped up very quickly, and organizations that want to connect with philanthropists, major corporates, big businesses with government, they need really good people to be able to build those relationships, and you got to hold those relationships long term. It's really hard to get good people in the sector who probably do have to take a bit of a pay cut, because most [crosstalk] not-for-profits are pretty tight, [crosstalk] so it's tough.Michael: It reinforces the need, and however transformational the cause is and the energy, it's got to be underpinned by revenue, capital, and profits to be able to survive. [crosstalk]James: A hundred percent.Michael: On today's episode of Small Business Banter, we're talking with James Garland, who's a Director at DGB group and a very experienced operator in the not-for-profit social enterprise sector.Sounds like there's some heavy lifting being done by the sector. Is that what for-profit businesses aren't seeing, what don't want to follow some of these imperatives, and that's the opening for not-for-profit social enterprises to really take on these transformational projects?James: Yeah. That's an awesome question because it is absolutely rooted in one of the greatest things that the third sector or the full purpose organizations can do, and they can do what government can't. They can take risks that government can't. Private companies owned fundamentally by their shareholders, they can't necessarily always take the risks that are needed to generate social change. The third sector, not the largest, in terms of economic impact, is one of those places where you can play and you can fail, and many do. You're trying to alleviate social issues like child trafficking, poverty, and stuff like that. You can't roll out a low-risk private-style business plan to deal with something like that. You're going to need to adapt. You're going to need to find ways to achieve those goals. [crosstalk] It absolutely has this great role.Michael: Yeah. Do you need the founder to be totally absorbed, connected, and driven by that particular cause to really see the business, the social [crosstalk] enterprise?James: Yes. That's an interesting angle, too, because a lot of organizations come from our founders' passion. Over a period of time, what that organization will need will be much more than that founder can give because they're one person. Like in any business, you'll need a multidisciplinary approach to how you're going to tackle the root cause, so they're being great people that have started their own foundations, and people be aware of them are famous athletes, started foundations dedicated to specific issues. Cathy Freeman has done a huge amount of work for indigenous kids and communities, and is super passionate about that. Lots of these organizations start with a small number of founders, but as they gather steam, like any commercial business, they need a really good, strong, well-rounded team to be able to scale for impact.Michael: Yeah, it parallels exactly. You know what happens in startups.James: True.Michael: You need somebody or a team of people to see the opportunity and make it happen. It's got some shortcomings, and then it's a cycle, like a management team or a more broadly experienced team comes in. One of the things that I was exposed to in my work in social enterprise was, there's only so much money to go around from benefactors, foundations, and from government. The imperative was find your own revenue streams, which I think the UK has been pretty innovative in building and fostering the social enterprise sector. It seems like what you do with your client is also taking them to the next level, in terms of raising the money they need to deliver the transformational change.James: Yeah. We talked a lot about a lot of not-for-profits, and we've all been to the Black Tie ball, the luncheon, or have something arrive in the mail box saying, "Hey, we're a new charity, too. Can you support us?" There's a lot of low hanging fruit that a lot of organizations engage in, in order to try and keep those lights on, and it's all really valued. It's already really valuable investment. We probably look at more sophisticated approaches similar to any business, a startup, or organization looking to raise capital. We work with a lot of sophisticated investors, people that are real philanthropists themselves, and look at how they invest their money in not-for-profits. We work with the government, obviously, who have got to mandate across a lot of these issues to either be supportive, or help drive, and of course, big corporates, the big retailers, and others.Michael: That is some absolutely fantastic work.James: As to the banks, probably a lot of the time, we hang it on the banks, big retail, and other groups like that, thinking that they're just in it, making money, but we've seen some of our clients in the last 2 or 3 years, multi-million dollar contributions to not-for-profits from these big corporates, not just pocket change, but absolutely transformational support for different projects. Some of them aren't heavily publicized at all. It's just that organization believing in something that it's a line with their mission, and they invest accordingly. We work on those larger scale projects that really do require multiples of millions, but the impact will be really significant. That takes time, like all good things, you've got to do planning, you need strong budgets, you need to ask yourself all the questions that someone else would ask. It's certainly not as simple as shaking the team in the street, so to speak.Michael: Yeah. It's next level, I suppose, but I think the future for the social enterprise for-purpose sector is pretty bright because there's a lot of problems and challenges, and they're possibly more exposed than ever. It's that energy for people to take something on, is incredible. It's really wonderful to see somebody connect.At the smaller end, I think there are a lot of really, incredibly valuable work being done by small micro social enterprises where someone's attached to a cause, and they've created themselves a job, while also supporting the cause. Yeah, there seems to be a host of problems, the sector outlook pretty strong and bright.James: Yeah. I think that we're going to see slightly new models, too. There's a social enterprise group/organization forming, which I'm a part of, in a voluntary capacity. Traditionally we've seen this move to this, not necessarily be equal[?], but more social enterprise, where people start a cafe and they source all of their products ethically, they employ people with disadvantage, and so every step of their supply chain, they're engaged in social impact. That's great as a standalone business. I think the next evolution of social enterprise will be broadening that, so that social enterprise isn't just hospitality driven, cleaning, or some of those things where there's a logical fit. It will be really great when we have real social enterprise across financial sectors, across potentially, resources, and other services, so that it can be seen as an actual business model for all sectors. It does tend to be a bit pigeon-holed at the moment, but we don't have this, as far as I know, any social enterprise real estate agency chains or car dealerships. There's space for this model to play everywhere, so I think there's still a huge amount of growth in [inaudible].Michael: What's the cap on that, James? Is it just being brave to take on some of those much bigger businesses in bigger industries, or is that capital?James: Yeah, it's a good question. It could be all of the above there. I mean, we have a pure shareholder financial return model traditionally for [crosstalk] any business, directorship, or ownership.Michael: Three monthly reporting and bottom line, bottom line?James: That's right. More of the single bottom line than the triple bottom line, and then versus social impact in a fair society. Now, there's some really great intent out there, but we've all got to want to change the world and have that fairer society. That's going to have to come at the cost of hard profits at some point, but again, there's still a lot of hope, because people that have had success or intergenerational wealth are more attuned to social need than ever before, and we see that. We call these people, they're sophisticated philanthropists, they are looking at opportunities for this change to be made, and they're not necessarily wanting anything in return. Some underwriting some will invest in a social enterprise, some will just gift philanthropically, but there are some absolutely wonderful people out there who are really putting their money out as gifting seed funding contributions to real game-changing projects.I think that's where the magic might happen, Michael, where you get those really savvy people saying, "Listen, I'm fine, financially. I don't want for anything. That's a great idea. I'm just going to back it because." There is a lot of that out there, but again, in order to present those cases and in order to excite those people and align their passion with an area of social cause that floats their boat, it takes time. You got to really tip[?] into that, what we call a "case for support", which is fundamentally a business case for the for-purpose.Michael: Yeah. There's got to be more effort, doesn't it? Anybody that's got a profile and is well-off, I'm sure they get approaches all the time and [crosstalk] for anybody you see, there'd be individuals and companies around, but they are going to have their own processes to use a boring term, but to select who they're going to support and why? [crosstalk] You got any tips for the next generation of business owners, maybe they're in school now, or just out of school, in terms of encouraging them into the sector?James: As I said, I sort of fell into it early on, but there's a lot you learn from a sector, too, at an early age. In this day and age where we're rightly so looking at greater diversity on our boards and in governance, we want youth representation because everyone understands that young people have a different view point on the future, young people like you and I, Michael, and others even younger than us.Michael: Younger at heart.James: Yeah. It's exactly right.Michael: Yeah.James: Getting involved in community activities is highly rewarding for self. We often talk about how you can get involved, what you can do, but it's almost the giving to others is being shown that, especially modern days, and I'll bore you with a bit of MRI, health sciences on philanthropy, but it triggers the brain and lights the brain up when you give, you're involved, you give selflessly, and you're engaged in things above and beyond your own self. I'd encourage people to get engaged with this sector, with the altruistic, if we can call it the giving sector, not just for what you might learn and how you might connect with, on boards or in projects, and obviously, just to do really good stuff in the community, but do it for yourself.The days of mental health, being such a high agenda issue, it's incredible, the goodwill and the feeling that you get. People who are pretty much full-time philanthropists now will say, "The work that I do now is just so much more rewarding than anything I ever did commercially, because it gives me a sense of self."Michael: Yeah. That's excellent advice. That's a great, unfortunately, way to leave our time today, James, but I think that message is, "Get involved in something," and it's almost wide into you that there's lots of ways you're going to benefit and contribute.James Garland from DGB Group, thank you very much for your time today.James: It's a pleasure, Michael. Thanks for having me.Michael: That is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing you small business experts and other small business owners, and hearing their stories.Do you want to listen to any past episode? Jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There, you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts openly discussing and sharing their experiences.For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today, or to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com, or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram.It would be great to have you tune in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@michaelkent  is a #charteredaccountant and #founder and #ceo of @slateaccounts a bookkeeping and financial advisory firm. His focus is to look beyond the compliance (#BAS #GST and #annualreporting) to really drill in on the numbers, look at how the business is performing and how you can make it perform better. He's all about helping #businessowners and #CFOs get more intelligent, efficient, and reliable with their accounts.After a diverse work career including running a water company in #hanoi  #consulting and starting an #ITcompany, he saw an opportunity  emerging in #coudsoftware and #cloudcomputing. He now has 25 staff (#bookkeepers and #accountants) servicing clients - 10 in #australia and 15 in #jaipur #india In our discussion we cover;servicing businesses remotely and the advantages that brought to him;bringing a broader team, and abroader range of skills to help businesses,his approach to understanding clients' businesses and having #empathy for their workweek, and trying to make finance really pain-freehow he designs and delivers his 2 service offeringsthe critical need for #systems and #processesthe opportunity for #bookkeepers to prompt owners with "how they should be thinking about running their business differently or changing things"the opportunity for business owners who have bookkeepers who they really like and appreciate, and who know their businesses, to invite them to potentially go on that journeythe 2 lenses to think of when looking at your finance numbers.Historical - when doing that, it's really helpful to break down the numbers and understand where for example the income is coming from, then break that down and work out what products or services are profitable. There should be some trend analysis on spending, and definitely some ratio analysis. The big cost for most businesses are wages, rent, and stock, if it's a stock selling business, and if we're really understanding margins.Forward focused -  you definitely need to have an understanding of what's gone in the past, but I think it's best to start with an understanding of the #businessstrategy of the businessWhy the #financefunction should really understand #businessgoals  and what is this business trying to achieve?the importance of the #chartofaccounts as that's where it all startsthe need to focus on #measurable and #achievablethe need for businesses to understand where its big costs are, and focus on those - there is usually only about 3 or 4 (wages to revenue, cost of goods sold to revenue, occupancy costs revenue)#xero #myob #reckonwhy #cloud #accountingsoftware  and getting data from the banks is the #gamechangerthe critical role of #Managementaccountsthe reasons for his success in #outsourcingtook a very hands-on approach.having a view that, "Well, our clients outsource their accounts' work to us, so we're not going to, then, in turn, outsource the work to someone else." We wanted to make sure we were doing the work for our clientsstaying very close to those staff. Just because they're offshore, I think you should have the mindset that they're in the room with you.recognising that they're very much a part of our team meetings that we have, essentially, workshops, off-sites with thewww.kerrcapital.com.au A full transcript is included below.Michael Kerr: Hi, it's Michael Kerr here, presenting Small Business Banter.A healthy micro and small business sector means a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success.I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advisors to business owners.Each week, I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert, and they share their stories, their lived experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own business.Small Business Banter is brought to you from the studios of 104.7 Gippsland FM and is heard across Australia on the Community Radio Network. Thanks also to Kerr Capital, supporters of the show. Okay. Welcome into another edition of Small Business Banter radio. Really great to have in Michael Kent, who's the CFO and founder of Slate Accounts, bookkeeping and financial advisory firm.Firstly, welcome Michael. Michael Kent: Thanks, Michael. Thanks for having me on the show, it's good to be here.Michael Kerr: Yeah, looking forward to chatting to you about what you do and how you help business owners. You're based in Melbourne, your business has about 20 bookkeepers and accountants servicing clients, and you can talk a little bit more about that.You didn't start as a bookkeeper, you started as a chartered accountant. You founded this business and you're really about helping business owners and CFOs to get more intelligent, efficient, and reliable with their accounts. I'll get you to introduce yourself shortly.In terms of today's discussion, what we're really wanting to do is draw on your current experience in the business you run to help owners think about how they can improve their business performance from bookkeeping and the output, which is management accounts, and so forth, also, I guess, opening the door to bringing in your bookkeeper as one of your really trusted advisors. That's the broad theme, but anyway, welcome, Michael. Give us a couple of minutes on your background, please. Michael Kent: Thanks, Michael. Well, I didn't follow a traditional accounting route. From a young age, I reckon I had a great interest in business, generally. I ended up studying Accounting, but also Law as a general Business degree. Michael Kerr: A lot of people do that. Yeah. Michael Kent: Yeah. It was good, it was interesting. When I left uni, I didn't work for a law firm or accounting firm, I went into more entrepreneurial pursuits. I actually went to Hanoi for a couple years and worked for an advisory practice there and ended up running a water company there, and then came back and tried to get an IT start up going for a few years, then took a real job in corporate land, which was, terrifically, I learned heaps for that period of my career, working in really quite general commercial roles. I ended up in consulting, but always with a view to starting my own business at one point. I suppose, the idea around Slate Accounts, I saw Cloud software coming and changing things. I thought that could be a good opportunity there. It seemed like finance was going to be deshackled[?] from the best in the computer running in my OB[?], and that it would be possible to service businesses remotely. In doing so, you could bring a broader team and a broader range of skills to help businesses, and that was the idea. I think it worked. We now have 25 staff, 10 in Australia, and 15 of those are in an office we have in Jaipur, India, that works really well for us. We can get into it if you're interested [crosstalk].Michael Kerr: Well, we'll certainly talk about your experience of outsourcing later.Michael Kent: Yeah. We've been going since 2012. [crosstalk] We started off general bookkeeping, looking after anyone that came along. These days, we probably don't take on slightly smaller businesses that we may have in the past. With the staff that we have, we find it slightly better at working with slightly bigger businesses, 2 million in turnover, or plus.In terms of how we think of our service, we think of it as 2 service offerings. One is Financial Control Services, where we run the nuts and bolts of a business' accounts function. We pay their staff, pay their bills, send invoices. We have another service offering called Financial Insight Services where we advise clients and really focus on using numbers to help them understand their business, [crosstalk] grow their business, and improve their performance, I suppose.Michael Kerr: Yeah. I think that's the underappreciated or underutilized area of bookkeeping, that ability to look past the compliance that you need to do your best in GST returns and accounts, but also really drilling in on those numbers to look at how your business is performing and how you can make it perform better, potentially.Michael Kent: Yeah. Potentially because of my background, we do compliance really well, but it's never really been a particular focus within our culture. We're really focused on systems and processes to make that work well and to make sure it's accurate, but our interest is really, we talk a lot about having an understanding of our clients' business and having an empathy for their work week, and trying to make finance really pain-free, but also bring value, I suppose.Michael Kerr: Yeah. Do you see that there is maybe an association between bookkeeping and compliance, and not with the next level of driving your business to become more profitable?Michael Kent: There is, but that's changing.Michael Kerr: Right.Michael Kent: I reckon it's possibly because the technology over the last 10 years has taken away most of the data entry, if not all. Ten years ago, there really wasn't a role that was essentially a data entry role, and that's a skill set. People who are good and interested in doing that will have a certain skill set, but that's been removed [crosstalk] with modern technology, so it means people who are really focused on that can now actually provide that service really well and efficiently for probably far more people, and that can be great. They can do it probably cheaper and better, but for a lot of people who may have been doing that work and new businesses that have come in to finance and bookkeeping, we have the space, data, and technology to really add value, so that's become a focus.I find that classic stereotype of the bookkeeper, it is sort of passing. Typically, businesses that come to me are not looking for that. They know that the world's moved on, and even small, freelance bookkeepers out there, and there's thousands of them, are now pretty focused on things beyond data entry [crosstalk] and the classic stereotype.Michael Kerr: Yeah, okay. The opportunity's here, the data gets exported out of your bank account, so it's a matter of shaping it and using it. Is that really up for the business owner to demand that or drive that, or you're just saying that bookkeeping, generally, is becoming more savvy and more of a trusted advisor in taking information to clients and saying, "Look, you should be thinking about running your business differently or changing things"?Michael Kent: I reckon there'll be a full spectrum out there and plenty of businesses will have bookkeepers, who, perhaps, not bringing that mindset and not necessarily thinking to bring that value. In many cases. I think that there's an opportunity for business owners who have bookkeepers who they really like and appreciate, and who know their businesses, to invite them to potentially go on that journey, if they hadn't necessarily thought of it proactively.Michael Kerr: What would be practical examples where there's an opportunity for either the owner or the bookkeeper to say, "Look, this information here is telling me my business is performing at this level, but I want to change it, or I need to change that." What would be examples of information that you could use to spark something different in the business?Michael Kent: Well, there are 2 lenses to think of, looking at your finance numbers. One is looking at them historically. When doing that, it's really helpful to break down the numbers and understand where the income is coming from.Michael Kerr: So, not yet. You often see revenue of $2 million, but it might be one client, it might be 50 clients, it might be 3 products or 3 services, or 50 products and services.Michael Kent: Yup.Michael Kerr: Is that the kind of stuff where you go? [crosstalk] Drill into this. It's not just one top line of revenue of $2 million. That works for compliance, right?Michael Kent: Absolutely. On the base[?] statement. that's all they're interested in, [crosstalk] but it's really helpful to break that down and work out what products or services are profitable. It's really common for businesses to discover with a bit of analysis that, in fact, they're putting a lot of effort into a service or product that's not profitable. In analyzing historical numbers, it should definitely be around focusing on product or service profitability, or for service companies that might be around, for a project profitability. There should be some trend analysis on spending, and definitely some ratio analysis. The big cost for most businesses are wages, rent, and stock, if it's a stock selling business, and if we're really understanding margins.Merely looking at a P&L on a balance sheet won't necessarily bring that out, depending on how they're structured, so encouraging a bookkeeper or a finance advisor to help a business owner pull that apart and understand those things is really valuable.Michael Kerr: Yeah. [crosstalk] The historical piece is just outlined, and you were just about to go on, I think, to the second part of it.Michael Kent: Yeah. Well, beyond that, we think that if you're going to get the most out of your finance function, it should really be forward focused. You definitely need to have an understanding of what's gone in the past, but I think it's best to start with an understanding of the strategy of the business. It doesn't need to be complex. It can be really simple. The finance function should really understand, what are the goals of this business? What's it trying to achieve? In many cases, that initial understanding of historically, what's going on, is the place to start, because that will tell you, "Well, we're doing great, but we do need to improve our margins," or, "We do need to drop our wage costs," or, "This is a sleeping service, but we could probably sell twice as much of this particular service line or product line," and that will inform the strategy. Once it's understood, "Okay, the next 12 months, we're going to try and do these 3 things," then working with the finance function or the bookkeeper to decide, "What could we measure and report on as we go through the year that would inform our progress against those goals?" That's the gold, deciding what we're trying to do, and how we're going to measure progress, and then getting that bookkeeper to go away and work out how they can get that measured and bring to the business owner a concise, succinct, simple report so they can get regular feedback on their progress towards those goals.Michael Kerr: Yeah, okay. I want to come straight back to the quality of your chart of accounts because that's where it all starts.On today's edition of Small Business Banter radio, we're chatting with Michael Kent, who's the founder and CEO of Slate Account. We'll shout out that website at the end, Michael.I love the way you've described that there's the finance function or booklist court[?], bookkeeping, account keeping. You can get a lot more out of the information that's going into the the system, historical analysis of profitability, et cetera, tying it to where you want to go, I think, the next level, because otherwise, you just go along and you don't know whether you're getting to somewhere, you don't know where that somewhere is, in terms of something that's measurable and achievable, but I imagine that when you are working with a client, all of that information rolls up into a set of accounts, and they're typically listed from the expenses from A to Z, accounting fees at the top and wages at the bottom and [crosstalk].I do a lot of work with management accounts and small business, and that layout isn't particularly helpful, so you've got to reformat that information, but also, I wonder how often there's a tendency just to shove expenses into categories, because you want to get your compliance done, but you're missing an opportunity to perhaps, really feed that information in the first place into categories, expenses that are much more relevant for doing this analysis talking about.Michael Kent: Yep. It's very common to have an A to Z chart of accounts, and it really is a massive lost opportunity. It's important for a businesses to understand where its big costs are, and focus on those. Counter-intuitively, we often say when reviewing financial statements, don't look at a statement, actually. Our typical reports will be more chart-based, and in most businesses, the costs that really matter. There's only about 3 or 4, and we prefer to present those in a chart that shows the trend over time and show us a ratio of those things, typically to revenue that that's where the business is thinking, wages to revenue, cost of goods sold to revenue, occupancy costs revenue, if real estate's a big part of the business. We then normally present your classic profit-loss statement that lists the accounts by month, almost as an appendix, because the B items are normally, there's only 4 or 5 of them, and you want to see what's happening as a trend over time.Michael Kerr: Yeah. If you're going to shift the performance of the business, you don't need to focus on 55 different expense accounts if it's 3 or 4, as you say, that always can [crosstalk] steer you to wages, rent, and so forth.Michael Kent: That's right. Someone should have a look at them. A good bookkeeper will take a look and make sure we're not doing something crazy with our phone expenses or our staff entertainment, but it's really not a sensible focus for a management meeting.Michael Kerr: Yeah. You talked about the shift to Cloud accounting. Now, we have zero miled[?], I reckon, into it, I think.Michael Kent: Yup.Michael Kerr: Is it more or less compulsory? Can you get around your compliance obligations just by continuing to use Excel always, or is the value coming out of an online subscription or a subscription to one of those service providers really worth it?Michael Kent: Absolutely. Excel is just so much harder, more time consuming, and more complex. The thing about the new Cloud accounting software is the getting the data from the banks is the game changer. You fill in a form to give the bank permission to send this company the data, and then over time, you can teach the software to recognize things. If it's Telstra, it's a phone. If it's Caltex, it's fuel. If it says Stripe, that's income, and so on. Tallying it all up becomes very quick.These days, running a bass[?], for example, it's all done with a couple of clicks, and now, you can lodge from directly inside the software. I just click a button and push it to the ATO. For smaller businesses, this software costs $25 a month, in some cases, less. [crosstalk]Michael Kerr: Pretty strong, and indeed, it kind of gives you the opportunity and to start to do that analysis that you talked about, which is, "What am I trying to achieve? How am I going towards that?"Look, I just wanted to rant through a couple of things in the last little while. Management accounts, for me, in the work I do, are the most critical piece of information. Now, when you're selling a business, what's happening last month, the last completed set of financial returns are usually 12 months old. What's happening? The quality of the management accounts, if I can call them that broadly, are so vital. I wanted to ask you, in terms of choosing a bookkeeper or assessing how your current bookkeeper's going, what's your thoughts on that?Michael Kent: Thinking first about that financial control function of the bookkeeper, getting the transactions entered, and getting bills paid, I think getting that done well is all about accurate, on time or faster, reducing risk, but also about delighting the customers of those business processes, so making sure your suppliers think you're a great company to sell to, your customers feel really good about your brand, and often, it's that finance person, the bookkeeper, who's representing you to the extent that's finance-related. I would be having conversations with prospective bookkeepers about how they might manage that and do that really well.Michael Kerr: Yeah.Michael Kent: I think the balance sheet is where a lot of bookkeepers might become unstuck. If I was interviewing a bookkeeper and had to choose one, I'd really go through my balance sheet with them and make sure they could explain. The key test here is, how would we check each of these balances, and make sure they're speaking in plain English, in a way that the business owner can really understand. I think that would set up the relationship really well.We find in recruiting our staff, the number one indicator for whether they're going to succeed at Slate Accounts is actually, "Please describe yourself, in 160 words or less, outside of work," because it's a very human task these days. It's not about data entry.The other thing to think about is about resignation proofing the function. It can be a real pain if your finance person or your bookkeeper leaves.Michael Kerr: Yeah.Michael Kent: I'd be having a chat to a bookkeeper about what backup they have and how those risks could be managed. I think that's really important, too.Michael Kerr: Yeah, okay. As a business owner yourself, you've got a significant business. More than half are offshore, and you can offshore a lot of things, bookkeeping being one of them, professional services also. What's your experience that you'd share? You have been doing it for quite a long time. In terms of just generally outsourcing for business owners, what's your thoughts on that?Michael Kent: We did it a little bit differently. I employed my first staff member in India in 2017, but I always took a very hands-on approach. It is possible to get online and find staff offshore, and do it all remotely, but long before we did this, we had the view that, "Well, our clients outsource their accounts' work to us, so we're not going to, then, in turn, outsource the work to someone else." We wanted to make sure we were doing the work for our clients.Michael Kerr: Yeah, and responsible for it.Michael Kent: Sure. Until COVID hit, until November '19, I was going to India 4 times a year, every quarter. I interviewed and recruited the first 5 staff.What's made it work? I mean, there's been a lot of change management. It had to happen across my Australian staff, and their roles have really evolved, and that's been great for them. It's a fun journey for everyone, but there's been a fair bit of work and care put into that. I think the key would be to stay very close to those staff. Just because they're offshore, I think you should have the mindset that they're in the room with you. Unfortunately, you just can't flip work over and expect it to come back. We're on calls and working on Skype and so forth with our staff all day, every day, and it works really well for us.Michael Kerr: Yeah. Whilst it's offshore, they're employees the way you set it up. You want to see that quality delivered that you promised, so you can't just outsource and hope for the best.Michael Kent: Yeah. For us, they're very much a part of our team meetings that we have, essentially, workshops, off-sites with them. That model works for us.Michael Kerr: I've been involved in outsourcing, also. I think it's like any employee relationship. As you said at the very beginning, wages is a biggest cost for just about every business, and managing people is essential to getting the business right?Michael, we're going to have to call it a wrap. I really appreciate your time and insight. I think it's a very progressive approach to bookkeeping and financial management. I think the message, very strongly, for me, that I'm hearing is that there is a role for your bookkeeper, outsourced, internal, as a trusted advisor, and really, to look beyond reducing tax, that annual cycle which has driven a lot of people in the past and a lot of accountants look past the compliance, and really look at it as a critically important part of the business to measure how you're tracking, and comparing that to where you're headed.Thank you so much for your time today. Do you just want to shout out the website, and then we'll call it a wrap, Michael?Michael Kent: Thanks, Michael. Yeah. We're at slateaccounts.com.au.Michael Kerr: All right, excellent. You do, occasionally, write some excellent articles.Michael Kent: Occasionally?Michael Kerr: I mean, you only write them occasionally.Michael Kent: I know. I'm going to work on it a little bit better there.Michael Kerr: All right. Thanks [crosstalk], Michael, for your time today. Really appreciate it.Michael Kent: Thanks, Michael. Good to see you.Michael Kerr: That is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing you small business experts and other small business owners, and hearing their stories.Do you want to listen to any past episode? Jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There, you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts openly discussing and sharing their experiences.For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today, or to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com, or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. It would be great to have you tune in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END]  Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@MichelHogan is a #brandexpert and #brandcounsel. In her world #brand is the result of the promises you keep. She advises businesses on the risk to #purpose and #values from making promises you can't keep.For #smallbusinessshe sees brand as a competitive weapon against the big end of town.She came from the design and marketing side of #brand that she is now quite vocally opposed to but this gives her a little bit of an insight for the #brandstuff she talks about now.That industry experience forced her to start asking different questions, and those different questions exploded a whole different way of thinking. As a result she moved to her role of being a counsel and really helping people understand brand as a much deeper result of everything they do as an organization rather than this thing that they prop up and create, stick in a corner, and redo every few years. In our discussion we cover;how brand is something that has actually become almost like a proxy for how people talk about an organizationwhy If you consistently break your promises then you're going to really find it hard to stay in business.the definition of a promise - effectively how you communicate what you intendexplicit promises eg  "we will get it to you by Friday"implicit promises eg how we tell people we will behavethinking about a brand is being essentially a result of a set of stuff, that plays out across everything you do as a businessand, what is that set of stuff - #purpose and #values - what's most important to you? What do you care about? What are your values? How do you do things around where you are?@unheroicwork - the 4 things that you do as a business on a day-to-day basis that in sum  help form the brand;back officefront office,with customerswith partnerssimple measures of this #brandstuff;Are you turning over staff?Are you keeping customers?If you talk to people, what do they say that you care about?What do they say that they think you stand for? Does that line up with what you think it is? If not, why not? What am I doing or not doing that I should be?#theruleofthreeandten - as soon as you add a third person, everything changes, then everything changes again at tenwhen a brand is born or starts - the minute you open, the minute you put pen to paper and register your business name, you are off and  running - the brand is forming around you.signals of a #badbrand eg you've got a revolving door in staffher first question when working with new clients - "When don't people work out around here?"her favorite brand - @patagoniaanother brand she isn't so enamored with @uberher strong message for #SMEs -  you have a massive advantage over a large enterprise. When it comes to embracing this way of thinking about brand and really using it as an advantage because you are smaller, you have an intimacy with the people in terms of closeness to the people who work for you.her latest book  "The Unheroic Work" @theunheroicwork@kerrcapital @SmartCompany Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@MalcolmCampbell is a #lawyer and owner of @ColemanGreigLawyers   a #sydney based #commerciallaw firm. Malcolm works with and advises #smeowners through the whole business life cycle. In this episode we talk about the critical #legalissues challenging #sme owners currently and how and when to tackle them. We cover; the real dichotomy in the current market with absolute winners and unfortunately, and sadly, businesses at the other end of the spectrum doing it really tough; bricks and mortar retail hospitalityanything to do with travel  dealing with the big headline #businessexpenses, #fixedoverheads that businesses have e.g. #rent and #staffcosts the importance of not ignoring an issue, any issue but putting your head in the sandhow to tackle tough issues;for rent issues early communication with the agent, or landlord directlyusing your local #SmallBusinessCommissioner  who will often #mediate problems so you don't necessarily need to incur lots of legal costs  which helps overcome the fear of high costs associated with legal disputeswhy good commercial lawyers have a passion for business and want #smeowners to free or reduced cost service where you can to preserve funds for when it's really critical Malcolm's own business succession planning - how he partnered up and stopped being a sole practitioner which he knows can be very lonelythe value of #smallbusiness #networkinggroups, #chambersofcommerce and #mentoringservices -  learning from others,  listening to other people's experiences, regardless of whether it's in the same area of business as your business the importance of getting legal structures right now - operating a business as a #soletrader or a #traditional partnership (#unlimitedliability) vs. a company with #limited liability If you have business partners the need for a #shareholdersagreement  because things change over time and there are so many #disputes or #misalignments between business owners that could be reasonably and cost effectively and quickly resolved, if there was a shareholders or partnership agreement in placewhy money changes people being courageous enough at the start of a business to put your pride to one side and say we are hoping for the best but planning for the worst and so  let's get all this structural stuff in place - if it goes great we'll never have to worry about itthe key #legalinstruments that small business owners deal with in the business lifecycle for all the important relationships;internal relationships between business partnersfurther internal relationships with your people, your staff, whether they're employees or contractorsexternal relationships with your clients and your suppliersexternal relationships like with the government, but also just the general public. being aware of where each of your key legal relationships are, and having the right documentation in place for those relationshipsthe need to understand that business is more than just the customer business relationship, there's all those other relationships involved in running a business that are really important to get righthow any of those different types of relationships can have a really positive, or really negative effect on on the business itselfthe need for business owners carrying a #financialburden to avoid burying your head in the sand, to get the right people around you including a #goodaccountant or #financialadvisor and not just someone who does your tax returns for you,  someone who's going to sit and look at your books and go 'why is your business not going well ?' - because once you know the why, you can then take the appropriate corrective actionand why sometimes when there is nothing you can do you might then need to talk to insolvency professionalsthe changes in the #insolvencyregime in Australia which promotes getting early advice because there is potentially a  window of time there, where you will be protected from things like insolvent trading and those sorts of things which can open up personal liability for directors the vital need to understand the internal mechanics of your business and why things might be a problem because once you then know what the problem is you can address it@kerrcapital.com.au Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@PhilipVolk owns and operates 4 businesses including Partner @ SuccessionPlus  -  #exitplanning for #businessownersExecutive Chairman @horizonswealth - family wealth management Philip grew up in the country,  and inherited a #businessgene from his father. He spent 20 years in #army  as an officer and learnt a lot about #people #leadership #process #management.In our wide ranging discussion we cover;why the majority of business owners don't deliberately succeed out of their businesses, mostly it's accidentalhow businesses become a part of our identity and how that is a trapthe failing of a lot of small business owners, who can't even conceive of what is it that I'm going to do when I stop doing this.why having our own #estateplan  brings 'what to do next' front and centreaccidental or #unplannedexits why you need an #exitplan and why you need to start as early as you possibly can to avoid what we would call an #involuntarysuccessionhow  the older you get statistically, it is much much more likely that you'll have an involuntary successionthe 5 major steps in effective succession planning process;Identify what value you've got in the business. So, you know, what's it worth? What are the gaps?How do you protect that value? Because the issue with most small businesses is that if the founder and owner aren't there, the business either will fail to grow or won't be there now, they're out of business.Maximize the value in the business. And you need time to do that. There are often things, in fact, almost inevitably things which can get tied up to make the business more valuable and more likely to be successful. What's important in life to you? And what do you actually want to do, that you don't have time to do at the moment. And then beginning to do some experiments and free up time to do that, creates if you like, an alternate vision of the future for the ownerThe #exitevent - the #liquidityevent or the transactionHow do you manage the value?How business owners get sort of really head down bum up in the business, working in, rather than on the businessHow to actually get people trained, and recruited, and upskilled to take over some of the roles that the owner would currently have#internalsuccession creating what we call an #ownershipmindset  and the tools needed to allow them to improve the processes and upskill themselvescreating  #financialrewards and linking them back to these staff that can become minority owners through the businesscreating a  wealth business at 50 years old with partners that were in their 40's and 30's or like 20's and actually building in the succession planning for the partners that I chose.Why often the answers are almost always in the business - in the staff, and freeing them up to actually understand and be able to provide those answersprogressive exits - creating an environment where the owner doesn't necessarily need to get out in one hit, they can stay involved which can be good for them, can be good for the team buying in and all the benefits that brings;team taking more responsibilityfreeing the owner from stuff they don't like doingprolonging their time in the businesskeeping wisdom in the business longest, which works for the business and also for the owner.#externalsuccessionwww.kerrcapital.com.auA full transcript is included below.Michael Kerr: Hi. It's Michael Kerr here, presenting Small Business Banter.A healthy micro and small business sector mean a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success. I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advises business owners.Each week, I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert and they share their stories, their lived experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice, to help you the listener get the most you can form your own business.Small Business Banter is brought to you from the studios of 104.7 Gippsland FM and is heard across Australia on the community radio network. And thanks also to Kerr Capital, supporters of the show.So, welcome! This morning to another edition of Small Business Banter radio and podcast, great to have in this morning Philip Volk.Morning, Philip!Philip: Yeah. Michael, good to be here. Thanks for inviting me.Michael: It's excellent. I'm really looking forward to our discussion on succession planning or exit planning for SME owners, which you're doing a lot of work in. But, if you wouldn't mind, just to set the scene, give us a little bit about your currently run full businesses, and a succession planning business is a key one of those. But if you could give us a little bit of a rundown on your background to set us up and then we'll get ripped, get into a discussion on succession planning.Philip: Definitely. Thanks, Michael. Look, I grew up in the country. My dad started as an apprentice printer and ended up managing. And then, building some of the biggest printing companies in Australia, so I guess the sort of business gene was inherited. I started my first business when I was 16. It was a business called Phim Foam, imaginatively named as a conjunction of my name, Philip, and my friend's name Tim. We cut blanks of foam, which we got from Franklin Caravans, and to packing for the local tool and dye making company. And to set the business up, we had an old door and a couple of bits of pine and some nichrome wire. And Tim's dad was the city engineer so we were able to on weekends, get the battery charge of the truck battery charger from the local Council Depot to make the nichrome wire hot and then we cut the foam. So that was my first business.Michael: Excellent. And now you've got four.Philip: Yeah, looks like it. For a while, I joined the army. Went a lot about people, that leadership, about process, about management, had no real commercial experience. Probably the most commercial thing I did was an oddity Wine Cellar in the officer's mess. And, I spent 20 years in the army and it was a really actually a very, very good background for the sorts of stuff that I do now. I really learned a lot about people and, you know, start from leading soldiers to talking to generals. Yeah, and the businesses I know now are actually all-around wealth, but not that, that means necessarily in a money sense. Actually mean, you know, wealth in terms of what are you getting out of like, so.Michael: Just give us a quick, you know rundown on the three of them because they're all the other than the succession planning one because they're all quite related.Philip: Yeah, so probably the [inaudible] that I've been in the longest is a business called Verizon's wealth where personal Wealth Advisors. The way we describe that, is we cost you the dreams of about 350 families, and we help them to dream again and then connect their money with their dreams. Another business is a back-office business for financial planning business is in Sri Lanka. So, that came out of a mentoring relationship I had with a young fellow that worked for me, in one of our businesses and he went back to Sri Lanka and wanted me to help him and get that started. So that's, you know, a successful business was in that for about 10 years. I've been coaching businesses for about 15 years, so, coached several hundred businesses. Mostly in the financial planning and accounting space, but latterly in other areas as well. And then there's the succession planning business. So, we found that when we were coaching businesses, we were doing a lot of succession planning, and then so we joined with succession plus. So, succession plus is a national organization and the fastest growing and probably the most prominent succession-focused business in Australia.Michael: Yeah, I agree with that a lot. I tracked them closely and know them and then now she knows you well. Yeah, they're doing a terrific job of leading the charge and it is the area of succession planning for small businesses is one that gets quite a bit of, I guess negative attention, in a sense, because a lot of owners by most of the stats that coming out, haven't really got around to doing formal or timely succession planning. So is that a fair assessment of them? Philip: That's absolutely right. Yeah, that's absolutely right. So the majority of business owners don't deliberately succeed out of their businesses, mostly it's accidental. Yeah, and so what tends to happen is they get so wrapped up and we know how small business owners working think we are that. So, we now have passionately got about how businesses and it becomes a part of our identity. And so, a lot of small business owners, can't even conceive of what is it that I'm going to do when I stop doing this. So, yeah, there's a lot of businesses. They don't succession plan, and the way in which the succession happens is not always a great experience for the owner or for the staff, all the clients.Michael: Yeah. It's a terrible experience, you know when it's completely unplanned. So there are a couple of things you mentioned there. One of which is owners, and we love the small businesses that's why we do this program to bring more quality experts and perspectives on small businesses, but people get very caught up in the day-to-day. So it's understandable that starting a succession plan can look like another major project and you know, something to put off until tomorrow, but also this idea of identity and what do I do afterward.I think that's a particularly important one because, for a lot of owners who have been in businesses for 20 or 30 years, it very much defines them. And you understand why, you know, the thought of not having that in your life can be another reason to say, "Well look, I'll get to that later". Philip: Yeah, yeah, it will come. You know, if you bring it back to something that we should all be doing. But many of us done, is actually having our own estate plan. Your own will, and it's snowing, I'm here for a long time. It's, and it's actually difficult for me to think about, or conceive of me not being here. And by actually, having to do your own personal estate planning, that actually brings it front and center. And I think that's the same for small business owners. If I don't address it, and I don't think about it then it's not a problem. But it becomes a problem.Michael: Yeah, it does. What would you be saying to those owners listening in, that are thinking about succession planning? What's like a, you know, could you draw on some experience of those accidental or unplanned exits that really hit home for you here. Where the owner perhaps they look, if I had my time again, I'd do something.Philip: Yeah, yeah. Let's take the positive step as, you know, we work in both the personal wealth space but also the succession business wealthy to like business planning. And whenever someone does some financial advice where the predominant thing I'll start afterward is two things. Firstly, do I'm really relieved, I've got a plan. And secondly, I wish I've done that ten years earlier. And I think that translates really well into the small business space as well. You need a plan and you need to start as early as you possibly can, or you're going to end up in an involved, what we would call an involuntary succession. So, the older you get statistically, it is much much more likely that you'll have an involuntary succession. One of the businesses we're working with, at the moment. One of the partners in the financial advice business. He is 85 and then there's a whole bunch of changes happening in the regulatory environment. And he was not wanting to be a part of any sort of succession plan because he saw himself as the business. So yeah. Start earlier was the big mess burning.Michael: Yeah, start early. Can you talk about just at a high level for the minute, what's involved in a succession plan? And I'm assuming we can use the term exit planning, you know, interchangeably with succession planning, I've only got two technical [inaudble].Philip: Mind if I describe the sort of process the succession planning process if it's done properly. And then a part of that is the exit planning. So, the first, no let's just talk about five sorts of major steps. Firstly, you've got to identify what value you've got in the business. So, you know, what's it worth? What are the gaps? And then secondly, it's how do you protect that value? Because the issue with most small businesses is that if the founder and owner aren't there, the business either will fail to grow or won't be there now, they're out of business. So that's about protecting the value, so they're risking a business by actually creating using the resources that are in the business or bringing resources in so that the business continues independently of the owner.Michael: Yeah. I think that's, you know, in a practical sense it's in the work I do. It's the biggest single factor. What happens when the owner leaves the business.Philip: It's a really good comment. I'll say it a ton of times again. And in my own business is, over the last four or five years being very deliberate about recruiting and training people. And you know, the training in business is not that difficult the thing which most of them don't get is leadership training, so training them how to be better leaders. So first step, we said, was to identify the value, what's its worth. Second, is protect the value and then it's how do you maximize the value in the business. And you need time to do that. There are often things, in fact, almost inevitably things which can get tied up to make the business more valuable and more likely to be successful.Michael: Which is one of the reasons why when we say, and we both know, from a lot of experience that you need time to properly succession plan. And one of them, one of the key reasons is, you know, there's that you go through all the steps that you're partway through but, you often see where things can be improved or need to be fixed before it's sellable. So that's, that's just why that you can't just flip it around in a month, we're talking years. We need to do it well and properly.Philip: Yeah, look. And the sooner you start the better off. And the wealth business that I started, I was 50 when we started. Then I have partners that were in their 40's and 30's or like 20's. So I actually built the succession planning for the partners that I chose. I chose them not just for their ages, but also for their character and the fact that we actually liked each other and we're able to work together. So, we have in that business, you know, always have a succession plan and an hour working towards executing that. So, yeah.Michael: That's the foresight. There is, you know, is quite striking me as it, you know, starting a business and having in mind, you know, where it might go. I mean, I think that in an ideal world, that would be what everybody does. But most typically I expect you are dealing with owners who have found themselves in business and have gotten 20, 25 years down the track and, you know, are looking at doing other things.Philip: And pretty typically in that sort of business usually end up with the owner, sort of the right-hand end of the scale in terms of experience and impact. And then he's got a bunch of people working for him. But there's a pretty significant gap often between the owner and the people that are working for him or her. And because I haven't done the leadership training in the development of those people to actually create the next generation of leaders in their business, and you need to be deliberate about that. That's a part of you know, protecting the value. De-risking business is making sure that the rubber band between the owner and the people, you know, actually doing the work in the business, what might still work in the business is not stretched too far.Michael: Yeah. I expect also probably that you're, the work you do with on leadership is partly about getting owners ready to make that leap themselves and mentoring, and letting go.Philip: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's right. But I think those conversations are actually really well executed by financial advisors. So that's the financial advisor that's saying to the tasking that, you know, the business owner. What's important in life to you? And what do you actually want to do, that you don't have time to do at the moment. And then beginning to do some experiments and free up time to do that, creates if you like, an alternate vision of the future for the owner.Michael: Yeah, these sparks something. By the way, on today's edition of Small Business Banter radio, we're talking with Philip Volk from amongst other things, a partner in succession plus. Philip, you are just about to, I think jump into one another of your steps in the process.Philip: Yeah. I might just give an outline of the five steps and then we'll put exit planning sort of in context. So, we've spoken about identifying value. How much is the business worth, and what are the gaps in it? Protecting the value. How do we actually cover some of those gaps? What are those gaps that we need to cover? So, maximizing the value, it's a continuation of protecting the value. So it's identifying how much does the individual business owner needs to get out of the business. And how do we cover that gap between, what it's currently worth? And what he needs or she needs to actually get out of it financially, and then that can drive some of the different exit strategies that we might have. The fourth one is, really whether if you like the exit event occurs, which is the extract values, so as the liquidity event or the transaction. And then the fifth one, is how do you manage the value? So, sort of two sides to that manage the value in the existing business, if the owner stay is partially in it, but also manage the personal wealth that has been derived from the extraction event or the exit.Michael: In your experiences are most businesses able to be improved with the right time and advice?Philip: Yeah, absolutely. What happens is as business owners, we get sort of really head down bum up in the business will spend a lot of time working in, rather than on the business. I know that seems glib but we find that most owners are actually blind to some of the things that can, that can be done reasonably simply to improve the value of the business. And the challenge is a lot of,a lot of those challenges are around. They're not thinking of what their alternative future is now. And how do I actually get people trained, and recruited, and upskill to take over some of the roles that the owner would currently have.Michael: Yeah. It's quite fascinating. This, again it comes back to being so deeply involved in the business. The business is what it is to the owner at the time. And then, you know, you go through a process of selling, preparing the business, selling the business, and you find that often each buyer that comes in sees it very differently. They've got, they've got their own unique circumstances. And I think one of the case when you get to that phase of exiting out of the business selling it, it's understanding that how you see your business could be quite different to the value it might bring two different cons of buyers. It astounds me every time.Philip: Yeah. Well, you've seen it a lot, haven't you? I think one of the things to which we get great joy out of ours, when we see some sort of internal succession or a part of the succession is actually internal. You may have another investor or owner coming in, but by actually working with the staff in the business, creating what we call an ownership mindset, helping them to understand. How do I think and act like an owner? What are the tools that we've put in place to allow them to improve the processes and upskill themselves? And what are the financial rewards and how do we link those financial rewards from the business back to these staff that can become minority owners through the business? And we've got various structures we can use to do.Michael: Yeah. It gets, I think it's a real trend in from the owners perspective. And that is a key team of staff, are natural buyer of the business. You cut out a lot of things that you would go through if you had to sell externally. But you introduce that, you know a different set of issues. And you know, the one that was particularly interesting is this owner mindset and it's one thing to be a really excellent employee, but another to continue to be that. And take on, you know, put another hat on it's the owner at risk, you know, if the business...Philip: When you sort of dive into businesses, you start coaching, consulting coaching, and consulting with them. And you often find that the answers are, almost always find that the answers for the problems are in the business. The answers are in the staff and it's freeing them up to actually understand and be able to provide those answers. And for the owner to be able to do something with them, one of them, there's a series of steps, what we call a ladder to equity, where, you know, you might have bonus and some profit share. And then, at the top in, some of the staff actually owning the business either directly or through an employee share ownership plan, which is a very, very tax-effective way of transferring control, some control, or all control. So the all types some time but transferring control and for the owner to actually get their money out of all the money that they need out of the business.Michael: And, does that create an environment where the owner doesn't necessarily need to get out in one hit, they can stay involved which can be good for them, can be good for the team buying in.Philip: To start on, that's exactly what happened. So as the team takes more responsibility, the owner, and often what they give up his stuff they don't like doing. And so what we found is that the business actually continues to accelerate its growth because the owner is focused on stuff that they do like doing. They prolong their time in the business but it's often the real value-adding stuff, the rain-making side of things. So finding new clients and that sort of thing that if they're not having to do all of the processing or manufacturing type work, they've got other people doing that. It keeps their wisdom in the business longest, which works for the business and also for the owner.Michael: It's a bit taking a step away and looking at what the business needs by way of employees. And if you can relieve, you know, focus any individual employee on what they're best at their business, you know, benefits.Philip: That's what talked a lot about internal succession. And that's absolutely one of the ways to go. But there's also external succession, but there's also a mix where you can actually do some internal succession so that the business can be run, what we would call under management. So someone could come in and invest in the business as an investor, or as an owner-operator. But the key staff are actually tied in and that's a good way of actually doing it through an employee share ownership plan or some sort of equity plan.Michael: Okay. All right. What are your couple, top tips for right now we're in challenging times. Is that really making a difference to the way businesses are selling, or is it still about getting on with your succession planning?Philip: There's a couple of things happening. In current times, the created headwinds for some businesses inspire others. So business we're working with which runs major events or provides the infrastructure and support for major events or that it's obviously a real challenge for them at the moment. And that they're unable to actually, you know, run those events. Whereas there are other businesses, for example, a textiles business, which provides suppliers for people making quilts, which has just gone gangbusters. So, the businesses of, you know it's, there's not a lot in the middle it's either going really well or not so well. Well, it's also done and this tends to happen in economic downturns. Now when there's another set of stresses on the business, those business owners to a bit getting towards closer to the end than the beginning also could have enough of this, we need to find a way to get out of here. But, you know, what you don't want to do is run out of puff as a business owner and have the market choose the time. All these for there to be an involuntary succession because firstly, you know, you're unlikely to get what the business is really worth to you. And secondly, it's not as likely to be a successful succession term of business continuing.Michael: Yeah, so you can see why it just needs time. And I'd encourage all, you know, all the owners listening in to, you know, to take that in because there's a lot that can be done with good advice and time. Which, in terms of succession planning, as a profession is quite unique, you know, it's emerging strongly. Succession Plus is, you know, doing a great job. So, one thing I've always found is for owners, you know, pick your advisors well. You know, it's not, succession planning, selling a business exit planning is not a routine or, you know, the people that do that kind of work and the best ones do it all the time and do it for their own living. So, and just be mindful of that.Philip, we're unfortunately, out of time. Thank you so much for your time today. I think that's incredibly instructional and you've laid out for us and owners, you know, a pretty compelling case to, you know, to start the process. So I really appreciate your time.Philip: Thanks, Michael. And just, you know, biggest tip for business owners is get started on your succession plan and do it early as early as you possibly can.Michael: Yeah, yeah. And if you look, by all means, shout out they, you know, if they wanted to, you know, make contact with you. It's successionplus.com.Philip: Yeah. So my business partner and I, Vicki Massey, and myself, Philip Volk, we're very, very happy to have a chat with you and just see where you're at and what we can do. Find someone that you've got chemistry with, you know the one you can trust because it's a journey, also, find someone that does this a lot. You only get one chance to save your business.Michael: Yeah, to do it properly. So, that's a great way to finish. Thanks again for your time, Philip.Philip: Good on you, Michael. Thanks very much for the opportunity. Thank you! Michael: So that is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing your small business experts and other small business owners and hearing their stories. Do you want to listen to any past episode? Jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There, you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts, openly discussing and sharing their experiences. For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today, or to contact me. Please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com, or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. And it would be great to have you tuned in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END]  Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@lauraracky is a #commerciallawyer in her own firm @LLGold. But her being her knows that's not really enough. She likes to have lots of things going. Her portfolio of interests includes;#cofounder @AllFounders - a business which is more focused on #leadershiptraining and #businessstrategy but has expanded into #podcasting #tickertv#founder @LGlowBeauty - because she just loves all things beauty and skincaremultiple board and advisory roles (past & current) in #nfps and #communityorganisations including @channel31 @hibgrouphug #mazzeifoundationFor Laura these #newbusinesses are a kind of hobby and an outstanding source of constant learning which feeds back into her core role as #commerciallawyer and  #businessowner. She #loveslearning, #newchallenges and #newbusiness. In our discussion we cover;the #businesschallenges thrown up by #covid19#takingstock how #businessowners are adapting and reinventingthe boring but important things to do in the #first100days of a new business a love of learning new things and being challenged becoming a better #businessadviserhow she chooses to do what she does and time management learning that not everything is urgent or important #givingbackgetting involved with #nfps #ecommercewww.kerrcapital.com.auA full transcript is below.Michael Kerr: Hi, it's Michael Kerr here, presenting Small Business Banter. A healthy micro and small business sector means a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges but also for the next stage of business success. I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advisors to business owners.Each week, I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert and they share their stories, their lived experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own business. Small Business Banter is brought to you from the studios of 104.7 Gippsland FM and is heard across Australia on the Community Radio Network. And thanks also to Kerr Capital supporters of the show.Okay, so welcome to another edition of Small Business Banter radio. Laura Racky from LL Gold. Laura is in, chatting to us today. Laura's got a really diverse background, and what we're going to focus on today is her experiences as a commercial lawyer but also, as a founder and a business operator, how she manages to fit all that in, and some of the tips and advice she would give to prospective business owners.So Laura, a principal at LL Gold, founder of LGlow Beauty, also a director of All Founders, a host on All Founders Show, you can tell us about that in a minute, Laura. And look, you've got a host of other advisory or board roles that span sort of tech companies, small new businesses, as well as, you had a strong involvement with Channel 31. So firstly, welcome in, Laura.Laura Racky: Thanks, Michael. Great to be here.Michael: Yes. It's really great to have you in. Do you want to just expand a little bit on the sort of major things that you're involved with and why you do that, firstly?Laura: Absolutely. So I suppose my sort of number one career baby is my law firm, LL Gold. And she's nearly 5 years old now. That's probably, I suppose, where my main bread and butter comes from. But me being me, that's not really enough. I like to have lots of things going on. So we've also recently started up the All Founders business. So that's more focused on leadership training and strategy. This year, we kicked off LGlow Beauty. I just love all things beauty and skincare, so I thought why not give it a go. So that's been really fun, getting into e-commerce.Michael: Classic lawyer stuff.Laura: And then, yeah, I'm very lucky and grateful to be working with some excellent not-for-profits at the moment, Big Group Hug and the Mazzei Foundation. So lots of things going on keeps me interested, I guess.Micahel: For sure. Let's start with how you choose what to do and how you manage your time with that extensive portfolio of things.Laura: Yes. I suppose when you do run your own business as your main line of work, so the law firm, that does give me some flexibility in terms of where I spend my time. And I always joke about when you run your own business, you choose which 20 hours a day to work. So really, I've got a funny little timetable.I actually don't start and sit down at the desk until about 10:30. The majority of the working day is on the law firm, and then it's really the evenings that the extracurricular sort of interests and board roles or advisory roles get looking. So it's a bit of a mixed bag, but it just means that my days are very diverse and there are lots of jumping around, which for some reason, just works for my brain.Michael: Yeah. So why get involved in this range of things? Is that your role or purpose to be fully and fully again occupied? Is it because opportunities come your way? Or is it because you just see yourself driven to achieve? I'm really interested in the underpinning motivation for you.Laura: It's funny you ask that because I think many people during, well, this COVID time, it's been the first time in my life I've actually taken stock and ask some of those questions. It's just always been this internal driver for me to load up and be completely sort of overwhelmed, I suppose. But I think the more that I step back and look at it, I really like learning new things. I like being challenged.And as much as being a commercial lawyer throws up new challenges every day because I don't know everything and all of my clients have all different types of businesses, I think that doing this just gives me a great opportunity to work with all different types of people in all different types of capacities. And every day, something different comes up that I have an aha moment or I can learn something from. And it's actually very interesting and rewarding.And obviously, on the not-for-profit side of things, in my view, when you're a professional and you get to a certain stage in your career, it's really important to find ways to give back to the community. And I've got special skills, so that seems to be the most appropriate way to give back.Michael: Yeah. And some people want to give back and others. I think about it and probably, maybe, don't see the benefit of it because it is giving back. But does all that experience make you a better commercial lawyer in the end?Laura: Absolutely. I mean, when you're sitting on not-for-profit boards or advisory boards, especially as a professional consultant, all of a sudden, you're actually involved in a business from that director-level where you can have a real oversight on all of the working parts rather than when you're an advisor, people come to you often with a very sort of small problem or issue and that might be all that you'll see about their business.Whereas, when you get to work as an advisor or a director on a not-for-profit, you see everything. You're involved in operations, partnerships, employment, leasing, the full gamut. And it actually, I think, makes you a much better advisor because you're actually, all of a sudden, exposed to the wide range of things that a not-for-profit or a business face every day rather than this little pocket of problems, I suppose.Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I think as a specialist advisor, often, you can be busy, but the clients already framed their problem. And it's like if I knew this or that, I could have helped you more broadly. So that's kind of what you're saying. You see those same business challenges from a different perspective and you can bring up other advice or other solutions.Laura: Exactly.Michael: Yeah. And look, I do a lot of work with SME owners and a lot busy doing the day-to-day stuff. And it's kind of hard to have the conversation that you need to take time out of the business. And you can learn away from the business and bring things back. But I understand why people just sometimes say, "I'm too busy." But the roles you have with not-for-profits and other organizations, as I say, can be really rich in learning. How do you go from the law to beauty? Like this is in e-commerce and social media and all that goes with that business.Laura: I will admit, it has been a real personal challenge for me. So in my legal career, I have often worked in insolvency, restructuring, and litigation. That sort of work is very, very urgent [corsstalk] and heavy and considered, I think, important.Michael: Heavy.Laura: And so I have this general expectation because my clients are very responsive and they moved quickly and I am the same, that I felt that in this new endeavor, that anything that I wanted to complete or get done or buy would move in the same way and be as easy to navigate. Boy. I know this sounds crazy, but really simple things like ordering stickers for packaging, for someone who's just used to things just going through in a very linear fashion and it being really quick and easy, it's just like, you might send an email to a prospective supplier, and you might get a response like 6 days later. And to someone like me, who's used to things just getting done, it just [inaudible].Michael: How hard is it?Laura: Yes. But again, it's made me realize not everything is urgent or important, and different types of things have different ways that people work in them. So I think just from a personal perspective on patience and navigating a different industry and world, that's been really challenging and interesting. But yeah, just, I think e-commerce, obviously, it's not going away, it's only going to grow. And I feel that being an advisor in this day and age and not really getting into this world and understanding how it works would be a miss. I'll be missing out to try and do it myself.So a lot of learning. We're still growing, changing. I'm still trying to work out what the brand's voice is, what we're about, our mission, all of these things. But I'm now at the point where I say, "You know what, you ran headlong into this. You didn't know what you were doing. You're making it up as you're going along. You don't have to. This is not a Sprint. It can be a marathon." So I really realized I don't have to be turning over a million dollars. Let's just actually use this as this tool taught for learning. So it just so happens it coincides with something I really enjoy, the beauty and skincare industry. And so I'm trying to treat it as something fun.And actually, you talked about business owners feeling like they don't have time. To me, I think you can view all these extra things, if you love business, if you love having autonomy and doing things that interest you, you can actually start seeing all of these things as fun. I know that sounds really lame, maybe, to a lot of people, but I think there's a lot of us who actually get a lot of pleasure out of all this learning and interest. And it so happens that our hobbies and our fun are running businesses and learning things.Michael: Yeah, you're not playing golf.Laura: Yeah.Michael: Not there's anything wrong with those things, but you've got a different interest.Laura: Yeah.Michael: Yeah.Laura: So I stay tuned, LGlow Beauty. I'm going to take over the world, but just not straight away. And that's okay.Michael: I have wondered whether there was any reference to LL Cool J in that.Laura: I actually can't even remember where. I mean, L, my name is Laura, but I don't even know where, when I came up with LL Gold, came from. I didn't want it to be my name. I didn't want the firm to be my name, but yeah, no.Michael: It's a pretty contemporary brand. It's great. But it suits with the energy and the interest you bring to it. With your clients, just to come back to some of the stuff you're dealing with us today, I'm keen to understand what you're seeing your business clients, what are the big challenges they've got at the moment.Laura: It's been a bit cyclical. There was, obviously, March onwards for the first few months, a lot of issues with leases. And they were the clients who literally were shutting their doors, work-from-home wasn't a possibility. So we're talking about hospitality, entertainment. So that was sort of a huge focus at that time, a lot of negotiating with landlords, also employment issues. But now, as we're sort of, I don't know, coming out of it or learning to live with this new normal, yes, there are still leasing issues, but a lot of people are trying to get out of leases, moving to new premises, change the way they work.And also, I think this has been an opportunity for a lot of businesses to take stock and look at the way they interact with their clients, what their employment agreements say. When things are good, we just put our contracts in a drawer and we hope to never look at them. But I think over this last 12 months, this has been the first time maybe a lot of businesses have had to look at employment agreements, have had to look at their leases or their employments with their customers or their clients.Michael: And even, by the sounds of it, their core business model.Laura: Yes.Michael: Why we're in business? How do we do it differently? Can we do it without a lease on a property?Laura: Exactly, exactly. So there are lots of strategic questions. And part of that is flushing out, "Well, where do we sit in our contractual landscape? What leeway do we actually have to make these changes?" I mean, if you're stuck in a 5-year lease, it's pretty hard to get out of it. So these sorts of questions, I think, have been interesting. But then, more from a strategical leadership perspective, a lot of clients have are facing heaps of issues with their employees.And I think this is not new, no one's surprised about this, but people's expectations have changed, people's wants and desires have changed. Things they thought were important 12 Months ago, they don't think are important anymore. Getting people back into the office is tricky. So it's a weird time, a really weird time.Michael: Yeah, it sure is. I want to continue that, but on today's episode of Small Business Banter, we're talking with Laura Rocky from LL Gold. Laura, yeah, this complete rethink, some owners might see that as an opportunity, and maybe not right now but later on. They've kind of been able to completely remodel or being forced to remodel the way they do business. Are you seeing, with your clients, an outflow of people? Getting to the point where they go, "The lease is too challenging. I'm going to reinvent. I'm going to do e-commerce."Laura: Look, a lot of clients who are coming towards the end of their leases and now looking at different spaces, I think co-working spaces, I think, had a very, very difficult time over COVID, but I think they'll find that there'll be a resurgence because a lot of businesses are going to look for more nimble and agile spaces for their staff. I think that physical spaces are still going to be really important. We are human beings and it doesn't matter how comfy it is to work in your UGG boots, we like to be around one another sometimes and to have that choice. But look, a lot of things have changed.And actually, a little pattern that I have noticed in the last couple of months with clients is there is a lot of discussions that clients are having with potential partners or potential sales of their business. There's a lot of movement, a lot of exploratory movement because I don't think people know what's going to happen in the next little while, but there is a lot of, I wouldn't say M&A activity, but just lots of discussions about what if we move into this space or what if we join forces with this partner. And a lot of these discussions are happening because I think, for the first time, like I said, people are facing a shift and the revenue isn't just flowing in without thought anymore.Michael: Yeah.Laura: A lot of businesses have had to stop and think about how they make money.Michael: Yeah, yeah. Look, you said you need to pull out those contracts, employment contracts, lease agreements, others. But underpinning that is just, "How am I going to continue to do business?" And so on that front, alliances and joint ventures and I think you do work with bringing in employees to businesses as well so it's diversifying and collaborating. It's all those kind of nice words, but it's maybe forcing a complete rethink of how we're going to survive. But not just survive, prosper but by maybe getting closer to other businesses and bringing in key employees.Laura: Yes. Yeah, I think when things are good, it's easy not to navel-gaze. But when things start getting tricky, yeah, we've got to be creative and inventive. And that's why this time is actually very, very interesting.Michael: Yeah. Yeah, and look, at the hub of all of that is personal relationships, whether it's with suppliers, partners, customers, employees. And the value of those personal relationships, even in a business context, is so important. You got to put time into them. And entering into business with someone, I mean, you and I have talked about this in the past, you got to have an exit plan from all those sorts of things.Laura: Yeah.Michael: You've got to think through the good and the bad, unfortunately, because sometimes, they don't work.Laura: Absolutely. And I talk about this a lot with clients, especially when we're starting new businesses or entering into new organizations where we've got a group of shareholders. It's always very nice at the start. And everyone's all really excited and everyone puts on their best behavior. And when everyone's making money, everybody gets along great and we never have to look at a shareholder agreement. But when things turn or people's life circumstances change, this is the stuff, this is when the rubber hits the road. So if people have not been thinking about these things early on, it can cause a bit of drama later.Michael: It sure can, yeah. So you launched All Founders.Laura: Yes.Michael: So this is kind of like a further progression of your portfolio, but also a logical extension of running your own business and experiencing just those day-to-day operational things around stickers. So is that the impetus for...?Laura: Well, All Founders came early last year, so this was before COVID and before LGlow Beauty, everything.Michael: Oh, okay.Laura: So Christian Cunningham and I are at the head of All Founders. And where it came from is, I run a legal business, he runs a recruiting M&A business. But what we both realized is that over our careers, we actually had learned so much from the people we work with and from advising that we needed a new brand to offer those types of services. It's very hard to pick up the phone and say to your lawyer, "Can you give me some leadership training?" I just think intellectually, people want to see it in a different bundle. And obviously, the same for him. From a recruitment and acquisition specialist, no one's expecting strategy and leadership training from him.So we bought that all together under the All Founders brand. We set up the All Founders Show, a podcast that then ended up a TV show on Ticker. And that's been really interesting and fun to go and work with clients in a totally different way than as a lawyer or a recruiter because I think, for me, when I walk into the room as a lawyer, people do bristle and they respond differently and they get a bit nervous. And it's good to just sort of come in and say "Yes, I'm that but today, we're going to-"Michael: Switch hats.Laura: Although I do get wheeled out often by Christian to give the governance training, but anyway, that's for another day.Michael: Yeah, yeah.Laura: It's very important. So that's been really fun, to actually work with clients in a different way, to talk about their succession planning, their short and long-term strategy, building up managers. And I think, again, when we talk from the COVID perspective, there's going to be a huge gap in our managers and our leaders who are not being managed and led through COVID because we're all remote.Michael: Right. You see a really big hole getting bigger.Laura: Absolutely. And if you're not around your leader often to have those really quick chats to run things by them, I mean, you're not picking up your phone every 5 minutes to make that call to your manager to ask the question. I remember, even just as a young lawyer, always wanting to sit in the office or the spot outside the partners office because I loved hearing them on the phone. I loved hearing them in meetings with other partners because you learn so much just by listening. And we are losing this. So I think there is this big gap where a lot of these leaders are just going to need a little bit of outside mentorship to get them through, to get their skills up. I think they're a bit at sea at the moment.Michael: Yeah. Look, and it's probably the same as it's always been for those small business owners who have always done it solo.Laura: Yes.Michael: I've always been their own counsel. They've always struggled to find somebody that is a trusted advisor. So yeah, I think it's kind of the same thing, but it's obviously removed from employees in a massive way in the last 12 to 18 months. And it goes to where we started, which is developing broader experience outside of whatever it is you do day-to-day. You sought out a partner to learn. And I mean, there are opportunities everywhere you look. I think there's an explosion of clubs and online networking business things, so the resources are out there.But we've only got a little bit of time left, Laura. There are two things I want to cover. One is there's a lot of energy with businesses recreating or starting afresh. So in the first hundred days, what are the three or four things you're thinking about reinventing your business or starting? What are the three or four things you absolutely must address?Laura: Yes. Look, the really boring thing, I think, is always structure. It always shocks me how many small business owners have no understanding, I guess, of how they exist in the legal space.Michael: So this is in the sense of having a company versus a trust versus a partnership?Laura: Yeah.Michael: Yeah, okay. Yeah.Laura: And what if it's really boring and it is very expensive, but if you're going to do it, I think you need to do it right.Michael: Yup.Laura: Because if you don't get that right, then the next thing, which is contracts with your customers and your suppliers, you're not going to get that right. So if you don't know who you are as a business from a structural perspective, you can't enter into contracts properly. So those two things go quite hand in hand. And then obviously, we've got things like your insurance and your work cover and your employment agreements.Michael: It's very easy as I'm excited, which is going to work and we're going to get on with it, but don't fall for the trap.Laura: Exactly.Michael: Yeah.Laura: I think lots of small business owners get super excited. And I get it, I've done it too, about logos and branding and websites and Instagram. But at the heart of all of that, you still need to have a functional structure in a business because here's hoping you're going to go gangbusters. And rewinding and fixing those structural issues later is very, very difficult.Michael: Hey, Laura Racky, that's fantastic, really enjoyed the discussion with you. Thanks so much for sharing everything. I just wanted to close out, you had an involvement with Channel 31. We're on the Community Radio Network so there's some pretty good news. Just before the end of June, a renewal for 4 years?Laura: Yeah. So I think it's 3.Michael: Three?Laura: Yes.Michael: Yeah.Laura: So really fantastic. I mean, the last couple of renewals have only been for a year, which is not a lot of time.Michael: Yes.Laura: I think the 3 years is a real recognition that one, the spectrum is not going anywhere so we may as well put it to good use.Michael: Yeah.Laura: And two, that these organizations need that time to transition properly. So I'm really thrilled. I think it's wonderful.Michael: Yeah, it's a great result. Hey, Laura Racky from LL Gold, thank you very much for your time today.Laura: Thanks, Michael.Michael: So that is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing you small business experts and other small business owners and hearing their stories.If you want to listen to any past episode, jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There, you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts openly discussing and sharing their experiences.For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today or to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. And it would be great to have you tuned in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@MartinGinnane from  @ginnaneassociates is an expert advisor on #retaildevelopment #placemaking and #brandactivation. He's worked with international cities and regional towns on major #investmentattraction #regionalrenewal and #retailrenewal projects. He was the #vicgov first retail industry specialist, is a member of the @victoriangovernment #SmallBusinessMinisterialCouncil and had senior roles at the #vicgov #DepartmentofBusinessandInnovation and was #DeputyManagingDirector of #DowntownDutyFree. The following quote from his website sums up his philosophy and approach to the work he does."Global Cities of significance all have one thing in common, a strong and vibrant, culturally diverse heart that encourages people to live, experience, participate and claim ownership of their location. At the heart of these cities, is a unique offering that makes them stand out from the sameness that is making so many cities bland and boring. Retail strength, placemaking and events are the economic backbone of all successful global cities and large residential developments." He's currently working on a major retail renewal project with the @cityofwarrnambool and in the discussion we cover;bringing his experience with major city #investmentattraction to regional townsthe exciting opportunities ahead for #regionaltownsavoiding the 'sameness' that is making so many cities bland and boring, the #oversuccess of big citieshow #Covid19 fast-tracked problems in the retail sectorwhere and how #prestige  has lost out to #masstige  and why "luxury is about where you found it rather where you bought it"#liebigstreet #warrnambool the critical role of #localgovernment   #restorationgrants  #landlords #localcouncilthe component pieces in a vibrant and vital #retailstrip#treechange and the influence of these younger people when they return to the towns they were born in#foodandbeverage #whiskybars #goodbottleshop  #ginbars #goodpizzabuilding #sustainable #businessmodel from services and products that appeals to #locals and #visitors #smallbusiness an #employmentgenerator in #regionaltownswww.kerrcapital.com.auA full transcript of the interview is below. Michael Kerr: Hi, it's Michael Kerr here presenting Small Business Banter.A healthy micro and small business sector means a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success. I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advisors to business owners.Each week I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert and they share their stories, their life experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own business. Small Business Banter is brought to you from the studios of 104.7 Gippsland FM and is heard across Australia on the Community Radio Network. Thanks also to Kerr Capital supporters of the show.Okay, welcome to another edition of Small Business Banter. Really pleased to have in today with us, Martin Ginnane, from Ginnane & Associates. Martin will tell you a lot more about what he's done in a few minutes, but I just wanted to cover off some of the highlights. He's principally responsible for advising on retail development, place making and brand activation. He's done a lot of work in both big cities and regional areas. He's a member of the Small Business Ministerial Council, and he's really a Retail Industry Specialist here in Victoria. And prior to that, he was the Deputy Managing Director of Downtown Duty-Free. Firstly, welcome in today, Martin. Martin Ginnane: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. Michael: And for today's discussion with Martin, we're going to be talking about regional renewal, making the most of retail, attracting investment, and lessons learned from some of the major initiatives. Martin was involved in Melbourne and now has been working with regional Victoria locations in Camperdown Warrnambool and Ballarat. So we're looking forward to that. But Martin, if you could, just give us a couple of minutes in your background so the listeners are in sync with where you come from and what you do. Over to you.Martin: Thank you, Michael. I'm fortunate enough to have had a very varied background, but all around the retail sector. Born in Melbourne many, many years ago. I was raised in Melbourne. I spent 20 years in Sydney where I started my retail career with companies such as Angus and Coote, The Jeweler's and Diamond Traders, which was part of then of the Hooker Corporation owned by the illustrious George Herscu. And then was poached to join Downtown Duty Free in the days when Duty Free was a big business. We had Melbourne Airport, Brisbane Airport, Sydney Airport, and about 15 off-airport stores. So, at about 6,000 staff in those days. I joined there as Deputy Managing Director. And after six years, we were taken over by Swiss Air Company. I was retrenched and thought, well, I'll come back home to Melbourne. I came back to Melbourne and was appointed as the Victorian government's first Retail Industry Specialist at a time when Melbourne in particular had vacancy rates as high as 17 to 18%. I was appointed under the Kennett government for 12 months and ended up staying there for 17 years. And during that period, I work mainly on investment attraction for the CBD, an original advisor on the Melbourne Fashion Festival for the state government up until I departed 10 years ago to establish my own business, Ginnane & Associates.Michael: Excellent. So, from that background, you know a lot about foot traffic. So I'm looking forward to exploring the work that you've been doing. I mean, drawing on that rich experience, but also relating it to what you've been doing in some of the regional parts of Victoria. So, I just wanted to start off with a quote from your website, "Global Cities of significance all have one thing in common, a strong and vibrant, culturally diverse heart that encourages people to live, experience, participate and claim ownership of their location. At the heart of these cities, is a unique offering that makes them stand out from the sameness that is making so many cities bland and boring. Retail strength, placemaking and events are the economic backbone of all successful global cities and large residential developments." That's straight from your website. It was very powerful. I'm going to ask you about how regional towns and regional cities in Australia can take something from that. I'm assuming it applies across towns as well as cities.Martin: Most definitely, Michael, it does. It's a big statement, and it's a strong statement and it's one that I'm thinking actually of using on every single presentation that I do to whether be commercial or private government, particularly in this day and age. It came from the fact that a lot of things were happening in the retail sector prior to COVID. We can all say that COVID caused it, but there are massive changes happening prior. One of the things that was driving this belief that I have in that statement is that sameness was happening all around the world. So you could walk down in Collins Street, you could walk down all the major cities, and they were taken over now by the mega giants, the Louis Vuitton's, the Gucci's, the Prada's, who roll out their international branding twice a year.So, you can walk down these streets and look in the windows and you'll see the same thing. The only time that you'll notice if you'll look up and you'll see St Paul or St Patrick's Cathedral or Notre Dame and you'll think I'm not in Melbourne, I'm in Paris. So seriously, that's how bad retail was getting.Michael: They'd taken that McDonald's consistency of product just a little bit too far with their retail.Martin: Yeah, and I call it masstige rather than prestige. It has got to the point where the big players are having to buy smaller boutique operations now to make themselves unique and so-called exclusive again because of the success and over success of some of those global brands.Michael: Too much commoditization of a once glorious brand. Martin: Exactly. So, one of the things that comes out of this is the desire to experience something that is different and unique. One of my other sayings is, "luxury to me is about someone says where did you find that as opposed to where did you buy it." Because you can buy anything these days. If you've got the money, you can buy something at the top. When within 18 months it'll be at H&M or probably far less than that, or how you can buy the copy of it. But the wonderful discovery, finding something, whether it's a great old book or pre-love tie or whatever the case may be. So, jumping back into your question. This is where retail cities and towns across Australia had the upper hand. It is really, really their opportunity to shine. We can discuss that as we go along. Michael: Yeah. Look, I think we ought to jump straight into that. The renewal or the potential renewal of the local shopping strip. I mean, you're doing some work recently, I think, in Ballarat, which got some magnificent real estate and grand streets. But what would you take to those places to make that local shopping strip vital and exciting for the locals? I'm assuming we're not going to have potentially some of those big international luxury brands.Martin: Nor do you want them. But Michael, what I think is the scenario is that it's going to be driven by two things. You've got to have an appetite by the local government. You've got to have an appetite by the council. For example, I just almost finished four years work with the City of Warrnambool on the redevelopment of Liebig Street. So they had a counselor at the time who had a vision to say to themselves and their constituents, "If we don't do something with this beautiful old big wide street, it is falling into such disrepair that we are losing out to the new shopping centers that are opening and almost circling like a western movie with the wagon train circling the town." Michael: Right. And choking it off.Martin: And choking it off. Now, this scenario with success for any regional town or major strip is to make sure that they are no longer just selling stuff. I use the difference between a product and an NSA stuff. This is not being derogatory to any of the brands that are in the shopping centers around regional cities. And those shopping centers do offer convenience. If it's pouring with rain, a young mother can drive in or a young father can drive in. Unload the baby. It's dry. They are not going to get wet. But although found in those shopping centers is stuff. They'll find inexpensive football socks for the kids which they need because they grow so quickly. They'll find a dress. They might find a cheap, inexpensive set of cabinets or something for their bedroom. That's fine.When they come into Warrnambool or when they come into Ballarat or when they come in to Camperdown, it's about wanting to come into town because that is where they are going to experience and find things that are different and unique. They are going to be able to engage with the community in a much nicer environment, wider footpaths, planting, better awnings, easier parking. All those things make for an environment that will make regional cities and towns continue to thrive.Michael: Right. So Warrnambool, Ballarat, other regional towns around Australia, the history is there. But you talked about having local councilors being a big part of the equation they need to support. What about landlords? I mean, some of these buildings are grand and make for beautiful retail or food or whatever. But the older they get, the harder they are to maintain, or the costly they are to maintain.Martin: You can see examples not just in regional towns. You can see examples on Chapel Street under the Council of Stonnington on Glenferrie Road in many, many areas. One of the advantages that live shopping centers have is that every so many years, your store must be refurbished. You must meet the guidelines of the shopping center and so forth. So while that creates a great Disneyland feel and a very, very nice, safe environment and a pleasurable environment where we're almost craving. Well, we are craving something that's a bit more earthy and a bit more real.Warrnambool, and I know the City of Ballarat as well. Warrnambool successfully offered restoration grants for property owners during the redevelopment program. The City of Warrnambool got that funding from federal state and from their own coffers. So three lots of funding. I believe the City of Ballarat has done the same for the renewal of the mall. I believe both cities are offering grants and financial assistance to restore and renew these heritage buildings.Michael: Right. So assuming the landlord takes advantage, then it does really open up the opportunities for smaller retail operators, whether they be food or whether they are quirky retail, to start something.Martin: Michael, the exciting thing is when you walk down the streets of these areas now is that you are seeing young people. You are seeing in Warrnambool there's, I think, three whiskey bars. There's a gin bar. These are all being run by young people who were born and raised in Warrnambool. Evidently, you do need to either be born there or marry somebody. And if you marry somebody, you need to be married for 20 years before you are classed as a true business owner.Michael: Before you get your stamp. Yeah.Martin: Even though I've been there a lot, I still don't think I'm a local. But they are coming back to town. They are seeing opportunities to come back to their town and make a living for themselves and their families. There's new housing estates being built in big numbers around these large and medium-sized regional cities. And these people come in many ways, quite often from urban environments, and they still want to live the same way. They want to be able to go out to a whiskey bar. Well, they want to be out to buy some nice cheese and some nice bread. Michael: Yeah. And in today's edition of Small Business Banter, I'm talking with Martin Ginnane from Ginnane & Associates. Yeah, that's a trend that we talk about all the time on Small Business Banter. The movement back from CBD areas, whether it be Sydney or other states and capitals, and this reinvigoration of towns and those people bringing with them some of their experiences. There's no question me, Melbourne and Sydney and Brisbane and Adelaide have some incredible innovation in food, but it seems to be transplanting now in these regional locations. Is that a result of people just having enough of the city being too expensive to run businesses? What are your thoughts on why this is happening?Martin: I think, Michael, you are spot on it. But it's a combination of all those things. It's a combination of perhaps the over success that large cities have had in terms of urbanization, particularly Melbourne, in the last eight to ten years. Massive increase of student population, which we see the massive contribution they've given to the economy, particularly as I haven't been here for the last 12 months. It's a combination of all those things. People want to not necessarily escape, they just want to experience something, whether they are moving permanently or whether they are visiting. The other thing that's happening, of course, is that the ability. I know someone in particular who's going to be working. He stays in Ballarat but is working from Melbourne firm, and then you need to go to Melbourne that twice a week. So all that flexibility is something five years ago we didn't have.Michael: Yeah, I think you made a comment earlier about not what you bought, where you bought it or you found it. You know, I live down the Bellarine Peninsula. My office is in Queenscliff. Well, it's fascinating every day to walk through that street and what it might be and see the gin bars and the distilleries. Not so much in Queenscliff, but certainly in other places, it's booming. It's a combination of that vigor and energy. If you were to take a view of what the next town that wants to reinvigorate their retail strip, the historical retail strip, what are the key that we've talked about to support to restore buildings? I guess we need landlords to come onboard and buy into the vision, and the small business operators. What else or who else is needed to really kick start getting these places? Because people are traveling more and more through regional Australia because you can't go elsewhere. So the opportunities would seem to be there if you've got an interesting offer.Martin: The LGA, the Local Government Authority, has to have the passion. And the counselors, the CEO, have to have a dream of what that town could be. In many eyes, retail doesn't play a part. Retail services and hospitality don't really play a part in local government plans. They may have a four-year strategy for economic development, but retail and services don't normally play a big part in it. So, in order for what you've just said, the other players, the landlords, the small business operators, the potential investors. You have to know that you are moving into an area or considering to move into an area where a council is hungry for your business and is keen to get it.I'm just about to deliver an investment attraction to the opportunity in Warrnambool where we are inviting some of the big commercial real estate agents down to have a look at what the area has to offer. How it's grown, how it's changed. Not necessarily to get any big players down but for them to be able to put Warrnambool in their head for property investors, but also for businesses that might be looking to expand. Michael: So you're saying that retail and retail services aren't really a driver for the LGAs. Is that it?Martin: No. I'm not saying that with all of them, but with a lot of them it's very much... When I started originally with the state capital which was over 20 years ago. I remember having a director said to me, "But Martin, why are we even playing in this space? One shop closes, another shop opens." It's not as simple as that. It's a scenario where council needs to lead the way in a vision of what they want the city to be. And when I say retailer, not necessarily just talking about selling more stuff. A good regional town, a good regional city, should attract people. It should attract its own people. It should attract visitors. But it should attract them for a multitude of reasons. Retail, food, beverage is one of the biggest drivers in today's market.Michael: Absolutely. It is. And it's certainly an area for further discussion. But if you look around, I spend a lot of time in traveling in regional Victoria. I go a long way for a good bakery, a good beer, a good pizza. So, what are the components for a good contemporary retail strip in any given town? What must you have to get people to choose that town over another town? Martin: You have to have two things. You have to have a business model that appeals to the locals, and you also have to have a business model that will appeal to the visitors. Now, I spent a lot of time as a young boy, which was a long time ago in Daylesford and Hepburn Springs, and I remember how it was and I see how it is now. However, for all the success, Daylesford in particular is still very much a weakened economy. Because driven by everything that appeals to the tourist. You must maintain an offering that appeals to your local residents as well. So you need, as you just said, a good pizza joint which Warrnambool has about two and Ballarat has about six. You need a really good bottle shop. You need a couple of good pubs. You need a pub that has good live music. You need a good delicatessen. You know, there's one in Warrnambool called Darriwill Farm. It was a retail released by a woman by the name of Lisa Pitkethly. It's the most amazing business. It's got absolutely everything.Michael: I also tried some stores in the city. I didn't know that.Martin: They had one in [inaudible] and they had one in Albert Park, I think, but I think that both are gone. Lisa's got bought out her own business now. But it's that sort of business where you just go there. It's almost like a small Ikea for food and delicatessen. You just go in. You pick up a basket and you buy. The other thing is, do these towns need this as they get to and need to have the services as well? So there's a good banking infrastructure. There's two insurance brokers. There're things like that that help the community.Michael: Yeah. And those communities would think on across the board of growing. So you've got a bigger and more permanent base to build a business around. This idea of investment attraction, it's still a viable model for local government to think about, local councils. It's not just for big cities. Martin: It's essential because big cities have been so badly hurt. The big cities that have relied particularly on government employees, in a big, big way, and international students. I think of Victoria's wonderful campaign they had many years ago with the jigsaw puzzle. And the course CBD of Melbourne, which I'm actively involved in working on their precincts, review work at the moment. But the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle fall on that. So, the students are falling off the table. The tourists are falling off the table. The public servants in town.Michael: I get it. In that investment attraction, I just want to get your thoughts quickly. There's quite a difference between attracting big employers versus attracting new business operators. I'm very passionate about seeing more small business owners. So it's a balance between getting a bigger organization that can employ 20, 50, or 100 people. But also, I think, sometimes the opportunities to attract new and innovative small business operators. We had Carly Flecknoe from the Made the Grampians Way. She's a classic tree changer. This is maybe 30 episodes back. But that's the kind of energy and vigor that I think we need as well as obviously attracting... Not everyone wants to be a business owner, so we need to have a balance. But I sometimes wonder whether small business might get underappreciated as an employment generator. Martin: They certainly never get underappreciated if I'm involved in anything. I've been in small business in different ways on and off for so many years and I know the difficulties of it, but I am so passionate about believing that this is their time to rise. This is really, really their time to rise. They've got access to so much now in terms of they don't need to pay for big advertising. They've got Instagram. They've got everything at their fingertips to grow their business. Michael: Yeah. They got something that's interesting, quirky. They can get people to the destination.Martin: Exactly.Michael: They can build it and they will come. Maybe that's going to come true for some. Martin: Well, that's why we're doing the investment attraction work. It's certainly not to when under no idea that we will attract big brands, but it's about putting the city of Warrnambool and other cities in investors' minds. Michael: Yeah, and really building on the natural advantage, the heritage, the proximity to food, beverage, produce. Martin: And a wonderful life.Michael: And a wonderful life. Yeah. Hey Martin, that is, unfortunately, time up for us today. But that was a really great chat. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and your energy and passion for that reinvigoration and renewal. Keep up the great work and perhaps we will chat another time, but go well.Martin: Thank you, Michael.Michael: Thanks, Martin Ginnane.So that is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing you small business experts and other small business owners and hearing their stories. Do you want to listen to any past episodes? Jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There, you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts openly discussing and sharing their experiences. For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today or to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com, or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. It would be great to have you tune in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@chanuoy is the co-owner of the @dimboolaimaginarium   After more than 20 years in the #hospitalityindustry in #Melbourne involving owning 2 restaurants Chan desperately needed a change. He described #melbourne and #restaurantownership as a "conveyer belt of sameness and pure hard work" -a change had to be made. Long story short @dimboola is where he and partner now live and work. How they ended up making a #treechanage to Dimboola is an intriguing story of planning and serendipity.  Since arriving and inspired to create something unique as a destination they have acquired a 19th bank and built the @dimboolaimaginarium - a grand building with a fascinating history and ceiling high enough to house a 3.75 metre giraffe! It was a big, brave move and in our Chan talks openly about the lead up, joining a new community, building a destination business as well as;creating experiencesreading and architecture as a source of inspirationsdoing what you need to do, what you want to do#treechangethe #renaissance of #dimboola #wimmeraadapting to a different pace of life,  to a smaller and tighter community and getting involvedbreaking the ice by recreating a photo of the bank opening 110 years on and winning the 2019 local event of the year from the @localcouncil the need for more #destinationbusinesses fuelled by the sameness of #shoppingcentres around the worldhow a 4 hour drive is now liberation whereas pre-Covid19 it was a chorenearby attractions - a 19tjh century pipe organ in the middle of the woods near @rainbow @pellachurch  @littledesert @wimmerariver #steampunk and how it fits with #countrytowns and #farmingcommuniites @kerrcapitalA full transcript is below.Michael Kerr: Hi, it's Michael Kerr here. Presenting Small Bu[siness Banter. A healthy micro and small business sector means a successful economy and a more vibrant society. Small Business Banter is about helping regional business owners better prepare for current challenges, but also for the next stage of business success. I'm Michael Kerr, founder of Kerr Capital, advisors to business owners.Michael: Each week, I interview a fellow small business owner or an expert and they share their stories, their lived experiences, the wins and the losses, and their best advice to help you, the listener, get the most you can from your own business. Small Business Banter is brought to you from the Studio's in 104.7 Gippsland FM, and is heard across Australia on the community radio network, and thanks also to Kerr Capital, supporters of the show.Welcome to another edition of Small Business Banter Radio. I'm really pleased to have in @ChanUoy from the @DimboolaImaginarium. We're going to get Chan to talk about the Dimboola Imaginarium, but welcome in firstly, Chan.Chan Uoy: Thank you, Michael. Good morning. Michael: It's really wonderful to have you in. We met a couple of weeks ago when I was spending the weekend with some friends up at @Dimboola, and we got chatting, and that's how this interview came about was serendipitous. You and partner, Jamie, made a move to Dimboola about two years ago, but could you just give us a little bit of a backdrop of where you came from? When you came to Dimboola, and what the Dimboola Imaginarium is all about?Chan: No problem. Well, everyone asks us how did we end up in Dimboola? And I generally say by accident. So what happened was, we have been fantasizing about getting out of Melbourne , for, say the last six years. We had a restaurant in Docklands for 13 years, but I start off in Yarraville in 1998. So we're one of the first in Yarraville to get a building and create a new restaurant in Yarraville. That was all that 20 years of hospitality, and I guess at the end I got really burnt out. I was actually really depressed leading up to moving to the country. It was a decision that I knew I had to make because I was depressed in the hospitality industry because it's a lot of hard work. Your life runs according to the clock. By a set time, you have to be out of here. I have done this. So it was just a conveyor belt of sameness and pure hard work. So by the end, I was really depressed. And, of course, you need to make that call and to make that change. So we've been researching and fantasizing, and inspecting country towns, and homes for a while. So, when the opportunity came up, it was in @Stawell. So we discovered a beautiful mechanics institute building built in 1875 on Main Street @Stawell. It was perfect to create an Imaginarium there and we were going to call it. Mr. Inskip's Imaginarium because the architect was Mr. Inskip. The building was magnificent because, in the basement, there was a Roman Stone, sorry, bluestone arches, but Roman arches and the foundation was granite, so it was really well-built. So you can imagine in the basement from the whole entire length of the building, you could create a wine bar. It was really quite spectacular. Michael: Wow, you did contemplate going back into hospitality.Chan: Yeah, that was just a vision but I wouldn't have done it. It was just really cool. You know what I mean? It would have been a cool space. Having come from hospitality you appreciate these things. But basically about creating restaurants: It's about creating worlds. And that's what I've learned from the last two businesses. Is that you think about what do you want your customers to experience? But also, what do I want to experience first and foremost? So, if I want to experience a particular world or environment, you create it. So that's what I've learned from the last two restaurants. You create your Ideal World Experience. Michael: Yeah. In the restaurant or in those businesses, were you a chef? What was your... Chan: So my background was accounting. So I think...Michael: Not what I expected, but... Chan: No, I did accounting and the reason why I realized I didn’t like accounting was I just want to go to auditing. I saw. Oh, no, I've chosen the wrong course. So, you know, look I've done it. I didn't like it only because I realize I like to create things. So you have a vision [crosstalk] and ...Michael: And if you do that in accounting, you can get in an awful lot of trouble. Chan: That's right. So I wanted to create something that, you know, that's real, you know, that's an experience and I guess I couldn't do that with accounting.Michael: Yeah.Chan: So, I mean, something happened early in my life where I just realized, I guess it was my first proper crisis I should say. So you talk about a person going through crisis, that was my first adult crisis that I went through. So it was a bit of a shake-up and that's why I decided to create my own world. And that's why we created the first restaurant in Yarraville because it's about creating my own little world. I didn't like the politics and power games in the private industry, and I just want to get out of that and I wanted to create my own world where the first restaurant was with family. The typical migrant story. You buy a building and create your own business soo you become independent and autonomous and do your own thing. So, that's where it all started. It's that desire to be free. That was what started the first restaurant. Michael: Yeah. And you got to a period of time and showed you had a second restaurant, but really just burnt out. You know, it's one way... Chan: After 20 years? Yeah, because after 20 years I did start becoming successful, but your stress if you're busy or stress if you're quiet. You're stress all around.Michael: Yeah, okay.Chan: So my stress level was higher than an average person, but it was my normal. It was my new normal so you can see why I had to get out. So a #treechange stem from that because I knew how to address mental health and I guess physical health as well. Michael: Yeah. Chan: So if I had stayed in Melbourne now and not have moved to the country when I did in April 2019, I probably would have lost everything. [crosstalk] As a reality.Michael: Yeah. Yeah. So how did you go about ending up... You looked at Stawell? Dimboola's may be in, I don't know, an hour, hour and a half, is it? or maybe a bit longer from... Chan: Yeah. So what happened was, once again, I can't make this up but stawell, The Mechanics Institute was used as a Bible College. So it's called the Australian Bible College. So they're on the extreme side of Christianity. So we saw like, we're aware of them because their Facebook posts were extreme to the point where, to give you an example of extremity, they described the #MelbourneWhiteKnight as demonic. Michael: Okay. Chan: Yeah. So because of that, we kept an eye on them on social media. So one morning a few days before Christmas, Jamie comes running out of the bedrooms so distressed. Oh my God, the owners of the Bible College are in prison in New South Wales for fraud. They were the ringleaders of 11 people for selling fake training certificates. Now, we couldn't make that up, you couldn't make that up. So we put a deposit on it. And of course, three weeks into it, I realized hasn't been signed and returned to me and now we know why because they were in prison in New South Wales for fraud. So because of that, we had to quickly look for other properties because our property in Melbourne was on the market to help fund our renovations ​because the Bible College didn't have a kitchen. So, we needed to have a kitchen and turn it into a home as well. Michael: Yeah. Chan: So we got the deposit back, thank goodness, but we had to quickly find an alternative property. So we did a list of five different properties, all unique because for us to move out of Melbourne, we wanted the property to be special to make moving out of Melbourne worthwhile. Michael: Yeah.Chan: There's no point moving out of Melbourne to move into an, I guess, ordinary property. For us, it wasn't the point. The point... Michael: You've definitely haven't got an ordinary property. You've got an 1800s... Chan: It's a 19th Century Bank, but the new brick building was built in 1909. So so the original bank was the Oriental Bank in 1883, it was a weatherboard building, but then that collapsed globally due to mismanagement. So the National Bank of Australasia purchased the building, and then they built this building in 1909 in nine months. So to give a description is built in the Renaissance style architecture. So it's got Greek and Roman elements. So really it was an emblem of Dimboola’s prosperity for the time.Michael: Yeah. Okay, and it's a two-story, [crosstalk] substantial building that you've been in now, for, how many years?Chan: two-story. Over two and a half years.Michael: And there's living quarters, living upstairs. And so this, it's a good opportunity to talk about the Dimboola Imaginarium and what you've created there. Chan: Yeah, so we wanted a special building because the building style of the building creates the experience. So when you think about it, architecture creates experience, and it tells a story. So for us, the building had to be special and hence going back to store, The Mechanics Institute Building, because that was a majestic building, Victorian era, that could convey what an Imaginarium is. And that's why, you know, we can't create an Imaginarium in a normal shop. It hasn't got the same oomf. It can't take you to a magic place. So, architecture plays a big role in it. So when you walk through the original bank chamber in the Imaginarium, you really do enter another world. The ceiling height is four and a half meters high. Because it's four and a half meters high we can put that three-point-seven-meter giraffe because we want to create an otherworldly experience for patrons, but also for us because it is our lounge room as well. The bank is our private residence in the old days, the bank managers live on site. So upstairs is four-and-a-half bedrooms, lounge room, dining room, kitchen in the back. So before the bank shut, it was turned to a private residence. So, the shop is our Lounge room. So we want it to be nice for us, first and foremost, and of course, that conveys to customers. Michael: So, what is an Imaginarium? Chan: So an Imaginarium is just a place that inspires the imagination. So for me, I've always, I realized I do have an imagination, but I guess society sometimes tell you to suppress your imagination. You know my parents tell me to pursue other careers.Michael: Accounting is a good career. [crosstalk] Which it is for some peopleChan: That was one of them. Yes. So I guess what got me through the dark periods of the restaurant world at the end was through reading. So I would read a lot of books. I would read books about, non-fiction books, of course, you know about history, architecture, but also about spirituality, and also about just humanity. What makes humans do? To understand more about where I was at? And I also read a lot of fiction as well. So fiction takes me to other places. So through reading that actually helped me get through the dark periods of days. So for me, creating an imaginary room, really suited me because I could allow myself to be creative and free. And that's one of the reasons why we moved out of Melbourne was to find a place where we can create another world for ourselves that's different to the restaurant world, but our world that we want to create finally, and at the age that we are because this is the last big project. Then therefore when it comes to that, you realize what you've got. You actually want to do what you want to do, create what you want to create, and actually enjoy life again. So I have to say I'm the best space that I could be. I never thought I would get to this space. I thought it was just, it was just a long tunnel. I really didn't think I would see the light, literally the light, and I guess the Imaginarium has become a symbol of, I guess me, healing from the dark periods of my years in Melbourne. Michael: I think, you know, to make a significant choice to move from Melbourne, you know, from successful businesses in and of itself is it's a huge move. But you've recognized that's what you needed to do. On today's edition of Small Business Banter radio, I'm chatting with Chan, Uoy from The Dimbulla Imaginarium. There's a bit of a Renaissance going on right across the country for more. We've had a couple of guests on this show talk about people fleeing from major cities to the regional areas Dimboola carries, It's a pretty iconic name in Australian In folklore history, you've landed there. What are you hoping to achieve with the business? I mean, you've talked about the reason for wanting to escape Melbourne, to create something of your own, but what's the in a crude sense, the business model that you've got there? And how is it fitting in Dimboola and that, you know, the Silo Art Trail and all the other interesting things around the around the area? Chan: I have to say, when we first got here, we ordered some firewood and an older man who delivered it said to us, "Don't do anything too ambitious. Some locals, may not like it." We came to that to that warning. So, of course, we clearly ignored that. So what we've done is in a sense, I guess for some people would be considered brave. But what we did was something that we consider, that gave us Joy. So, by creating something joyful that people can experience for the first time that's completely different, completely unexpected. People don't expect to see this in Dimboola. You know, you see I've had feedback that is a shop you see in big cities like London or Paris. It's that sort of caliber because we've gone all out, putting all our work experience into the one space. So what is... Michael: And it's a range. Its books. It's quirky. Chan: It's a lifestyle. Yeah. So by creating that in Dimboola, which people never expected with locals. It's become a destination shop.Michael: Right. Chan: Yeah, so that's that's how I guess the Dimboola town has evolved to because, since we've opened, two other shops have opened. Two other unique individual shops, that you will never find anywhere else in Australia. Michael: Right. Chan: And that's what it's about. It's about creating. I think we've come full circle, the whole world, all the shopping centers around the world, all the same. It's the same brand.Michael: Yea. Chan: So what's happening with, in terms of Renaissance for Dimboola, is that people are creating very personalized, individual shops, that you can not find anywhere else in the world. So, and of course, now, there's another one coming up in, hopefully, the next few weeks, and that shop will be unique. It's got handmade things that's made in Dimboola. They've got items sourced from the Western Bloc, you know Eastern countries during the Cold War. Now, that's pretty cool. That's right. So so basically...Michael: People will travel.Chan: People will travel. And after Covid, when you've been in a lockdown for how many weeks for Melbournian's a four-hour drive out of Melbourne is liberating now. Before Covid, it was a chore. People would never contemplate that but because of Covid, people realize its freedom, absolute freedom. And also, it's a chance for them to discover their own backyard. Of course, the fact that they can't travel overseas as you know, that's been a benefit for regional Victoria. So we're getting lots of first-timers coming to Dimboola, coming to #Wimmera for the first time. Because Wimmera is really the Last Frontier of our tourism because of the distance. If you're not going to South Australia, you really wouldn't be that motivated to come to Wimmer. But covid has changed that perspective. I think the Wimmeras got a lot to offer now. I've you know, I'm learning about the área, and the more I learned about the more passionate I become about the area. There's a lot of untapped experiences in the Wimmer. Michael: What are some of those Chan? Just to shout them out because... Chan: So for example these quirky historical elements that people don't know about. So for example, there's a church at Pella church (https://pellaviarainbow.lutheran.org.au/) just north of Rainbow. You're driving 15 minutes out. You're going through the woods, you're surrounded by nothing but just woods, and also you hit upon a Lutheran Church in the middle of the woods, which they would have had to use horse and carriage to get to. And when you get in there, you discover 19th century, pipe organ from Germany. Michael: Wow. Chan: You talk about a Pipe organ that you saw in a bigger church, but this is in a small Church in the woods. It's just the journey to get, there's quite a kind of amazing, and then when you get there, the tour guide starts playing Bach on the organ. It's like a bit of Phantom of the Opera in the middle of the bush. It's just amazing. I guess that juxtaposition between extremities of distance and in having a church in the middle of the woods with a 19th-century pipe organ. It's just fascinating. It was just an example where, you know, you can have droopy experiences and also the architecture for the towns. You know the 19th-century architecture. And because I've always been drawn to architecture, I quite find them to be gems. Michael: Yeah. And still affordable? is that...Chan: Yes. Compared to other country areas of Victoria, it's probably the most affordable area. And look at the distance. Michael: Yeah.Chan: But the Renaissance I think that we're experiencing now is changing that. And I mean, people are coming to Dimboola and the Wimmera. Michael: I think the whole, you know, there's there is a shift going on and what was too far away, people are reassessing that now because, you know, they want experiences and creating destinations. You've talked a lot about this new shop opening, but also, you know, the Wimmera River, the little desert. I mean, there's a lot that you can access from around the place where we found that glorious. So, I know you've also, you know, in moving to a from Melbourne to a small town with a population of I think it's a thousand or maybe... Chan: It's floating between fourteen hundred and seventeen hundred.Michael: Okay.Chan: depending on what part of the internet you come across. Michael: So that's a big move. How else have you got involved? I know there's a, I think there's a festival that you're behind. Do you want to talk about it? Just the effort you made to get involved with locals. Chan: Yeah. Michael: So to kind of broaden out what Dimboola had to offer through, I mean it's lots to offer already but you know you're kind of adding to the mix with this Festival.Chan: So it was a bit of a shock coming here to a small town on one level because it's a smaller community where everyone knows each other. So in Melbourne, you can be Incognito and Anonymous and you can float through society with no one knowing you or knowing your neighbors, but here, everyone knows your business. So because, you know, we bought a significant building in town. Everyone's going to know people. The building of course, so they're already watching us, you know what I'm saying? So what they do is... So I guess for Melbournians, just be mindful that you will be noticed. You do have to make a, I guess, your behavior needs to be changed as well. It's such a small knitted Community. Everyone knows each other and most likely are related to each other. So be careful what you say as well because it travels small things, you know, spread very quickly. So having said that, we broke the ice with the town, by having a special event, by having it photo re-creation of the bank opening in 1909. So, in the year that we moved, we were a hundred and ten years later that we took residents of the building. So, there's a photograph that we discovered of all the men, male customers were invited to the opening of the bank. So we felt like we really want to create this shot because it hasn't been done before. Or after a hundred ten years. So we broke the ice by inviting the locals to come to participate in that photo Recreation. Two hundred and fifty turned up. Mostly older people which was really great because I appreciate history and heritage. They had such a good time. They gave us the best event of the Year 2019. From the town community and also a letter from the CEO of the council. So, so that was really good. So we broke the ice and from there. We open the shop and we're also been active in the community, you know, and also, what people said is that they really like the fact that we're really down to earth in genuine. So that's really important to I think we've been moved to a country town. So, you know, defeating, just be down to earth and that's what we are. And that's how we managed to do. So, because of that, over the years, which is only two and a half years. I dunno, I think people like what we're doing. And so whatever we do seems to awaken people's awareness of certain elements. So I guess the steampunk event is one we're pushing the envelope. Because not many people around here know what steampunk is. So and I know that steampunk festivals around the world in other country towns have been extremely successful. So it clearly works in the United States, New Zealand, the UK, and also different parts of Australia. Steampunk really lends itself to country towns and farming communities, because they can upcycle and make wonderful contraptions through the materials. So, after this first event, I think all the farmers will learn what steampunk is. And I think they will embrace it because it's aesthetically quite beautiful. It won't date, and it's quite quirky. And I think the Herald Sun described Dimboola as a town that has got an eccentric flavor. So let's embrace that and I think steampunk lends itself to that.Michael: Yeah, so so we are coming up to the end. But can you just quickly describe what steampunk is and when this Festival, all things going well with Covid, etc., when it will be? Chan: Okay. September the 4th the day before Father's Day. Yeah, and steampunk is really Victoriana, combining Victoriana and your imagination. So another way of saying is 19th-century aesthetics lending with science fiction. So it's a literary genre that stems from science fiction. So you imagine Jules Verne, the time machine, that sort of period that romanticized version of the 19th-Century imagination with science fiction is steampunk. So you're imagining the past having the technology that we have now, but still with the materials of the 19th century. Michael: Yeah okay. And there's lots of raw material to work within some of these older towns, so... Chan: That's right. Michael: That's great. Hey Chan, thank you so much for your time today. It was really a very personal insight and I thank you for that because one of the things that we want to encourage is people into small business and you've done that. And also this program goes out through Regional Australia through the Community Radio Network and a lot of people have now considering moving and you've done that and I really admire what you've done. And I hope people listening in will also take some inspiration from it. It's a great story. So we wish you well at the Dimboola Imaginarium and I can speak from firsthand experience it so it's a hell of a great place to visit and worth lots to do around the area. So well worth the time and effort. Thanks again, Chan. Chan: Thanks, Michael. Thanks for the chat.Michael: So that is all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired bringing you small business experts, and other small business owners and hearing their stories. Do you want to listen to any past episode? Jump onto your podcast platform of choice and search Small Business Banter. There you will find a diverse and fascinating collection of small business owners and experts openly discussing and sharing their experiences.For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today, or to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram. And it would be great to have you tune in the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[END] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au 

@richardthomas is #cofounder of @wormlovers where he is a #wormfarmer #breedingworms and the business supplies, services and educates on everything to do with #composting #nutrientcycling #soil #worms. He also co-founded @Boogiefestival #musicfestival (after being integrally involved with another iconic festival @bigdayout ) and @treecredsRichard went to #Artschool @sydneycollegeofthearts in Sydney and evolved an #artpractice, which was around very much focused on #ecology #conservation #sustainability #environmentalism. The businesses were also built, ground up, on the same  foundational principles. It's a ripping chat with someone who does care, you'll hear it the way he speaks and see it in what has done - in the episode Richard talks about;#lovetheworklovetheworldhis self described 'accidental but sort of interesting journey'modestly exhibiting his art in 15 countriesthe profound experience of #livingofftheland in #Tasmania as a teenagerstarting new businesses with great friends on #enviromental #sustainable values  #homecompostingwhy #earthworms #soilhealthare just so fundamentally important to all of us the #Covid19 induced struggles for #smallbusinessownerstrying to find #balance between home and workwy it's time to #exit  #businesssale  @wormlovers the support he feels when talking to other #businessownersA full transcript is below.@kerrcapitalWelcome to another edition of Small Business Banter. This morning, I've got in Richard Thomas. Richard has a really diverse business background. We're going to chat to him about these businesses. He’s a founder of @Wormlovers which is-- he's a worm farmer, and we'll talk about recycling, environmentalism. He's also co-founder of the @BoogieMusicFestival and a founder of another @Treecreds, which is a carbon reduction project. It's a really interesting mix, but firstly, welcome in Richard Thomas. Great to have you in our studio.Richard Thomas: Thanks, Michael. Great to be here. Michael: Perhaps you just want to expand a little bit on those three ventures that you've been involved in, and then we can pick up a couple of conversations around them.Richard: I guess, starting off with the Wormlovers, really, it's been something I've been doing for about 20 years I was a sole trader until around 8 years ago, and then we established it as a Pty Ltd business. But, nearly 20 years of #breedingworms and doing everything to do with #composting and #nutrientcycling and #soil and #worms, from that perspective. #Boogiefestival started about 15 years ago, and that came out of my experience. I worked for 20 years on the #BigDayOut festival as a kind of art coordinator and then, that evolved into running a part of the festival with a stage and various other activities, working in the core team of the Big Day Out from its inception, right through until when it finished, I think about 6 or 7 years ago. And through that... what my journey has very much been things have just come up. I don't know how much planning has gone into it. It's just sort of like being somehow an accidental but sort of interesting journey. Originally, I went to #Artschool in Sydney and then evolved an art practice, which was around very much focused on #ecology and #conservation, #sustainability, #environmentalism. So, these other projects that are being involved in have always been related to that sort of foundational, sort of vocation, I guess, as an #artist. And I had a quite long career as a practicing artist and showed in my work in probably about 15 different countries and had commercial galleries and was pretty much active in that world for 20, probably nearly 30 years. Michael: Wow.Richard: The Big Day Out was a gig that provided me with enough income to sort of subsidize my art practice. So, that was what was going on for most of those years. And then, I've always had a really strong interest in, I guess, #nature and #naturalprocesses. When I was a teenager after I left school, I went live with my uncle down in #Tasmania. This is in the late 70s, early 80s. He was #livingofftheland there, I guess you'd call him a-- he’s not a sort of a hippie-ish looking guy, but I guess some of his values are very much about #backtoearth, you know, #growinghisownfood and he and his family had #drafthorses, they had their own #sheep, they're making their own clothes at a huge #veggiegarden, they would make #beehives, they were #makingtheirownbooze and generally living off the land. So that was a really influential experience for me.Michael: You lived there as a teenager, or?Richard: Yeah. I think when I was about 17, for a couple of years I lived down there. So that was a really profound experience for me. At that time, there were a lot of people, maybe similar to what's going on at the moment. It was a lot of people who were just fed up with the mainstream world, and people moving down to Tasmania, a lot of young people, people from different parts of the world. You know, the land was cheap and there were a lot of people who were building their own house, going #offgrid, and stuff, which is now sort of becoming again. It's coming back into the mainstream a bit more, but at that time, there was a real kind of sense of movement happening.Michael: Yeah.Richard: So that's the kind of background.Michael: So, you talked about-- it's not opportunistic, but you know, there were things that piqued your interest, say, you'd go after it?Richard: Yeah, that's right. And so, when I went to Art school in Sydney, I'd already had that experience, living in the country and being really connected to all these natural processes. So, that's sort of carried on into my developing art practice. Michael: What art were you producing, Richard? Richard: Well, I went to @SydneyCollegeoftheArts, which is an incredible place and an incredible time to be doing that. The '80s were a really incredible time to be an artist. So many ideas and so many different streams going on. Painting sort of returned. There were also a lot of conceptual ideas around and it gave me the opportunity to try out a whole lot of different media and different approaches, but always around sort of nature, somehow connected to nature. So, initially, I went to do photography, and then I jumped into the painting department, and then I moved on later to more installation work, even some video work. But mostly, painting and installation work, and often using natural materials or landscape paintings, photography, yeah.Michael: It really does sound like that experience living off the grid in Tazi[?] was quite formative for you because I think Wormlovers is a recycling environmental business wholly, but I think Boogie Fest was really differentiated itself based on its environmentalism credentials. Is that right?Richard: Yeah.Michael: You know, you were really looking hard to tread lightly on the earth.Richard: Yeah, absolutely. And I think... you know, I started Boogie Festival with some really great friends who are-- a lot of those relationships that evolved out of the Big Day Out, and we used to go to a lot of festivals together, and so, we just came up with this idea of doing a festival. But it's always been a passion of mine to consider the environmental impact of everything you're doing, to me, that's a sort of fundamental principle that I think everyone should adopt, really. So, it's not just a sort of sense of going. We've got this guy; he's doing a bit of green stuff on the side. And then we'll just keep doing what we're doing because we're sort of taking care of the environmental stuff. I think that sort of attitude often with some businesses, I think, with some corporations, in particular, can be a bit of a problem because it's just the sideline, the guys that are doing the sustainability stuff. But with Boogie, we tried to really embed that with things, like we introduced--- We got rid of #disposablecups, so we had plastic pots for all the beers. We brought in #onsitecomposting, we'd set up a whole sorting operation site and[?] all of that to increase our recycling. And we did a carbon offset, I think that that was through Treecreds, which is another enterprise that I'd started. And the idea of that was that when you came to the festival as a punter, you would be able to purchase a #carbonoffset for your #travelemissions to the festival.Michael: Yeah. So rather than paying not lip service, necessarily, but like as you say, the bigger groups, bigger companies might have sustainability area. Richard: Yes.Michael: Boogie Festival is ground up. The whole thing is built around a few core values, one of them which is environmentalism. So, you mentioned, people-- and as we've interviewed on this program, quite a few people involved in, I guess, activating #regionalareas and more people are moving to the regions. But do you think environmentalism is at risk at the moment? Or do you think it's the best opportunity it has ever been for people to reconsider how they treat the environment? It's strange times we're in.Richard: Yes, it’s certainly strange times. And I think it's a complex question because there's so much that is going on, and there's so much that isn't going on that needs to happen, really. I feel like these certain parts of the world that-- or sectors of the economy or demographics or whatever you want to call it, people who are really moving ahead quickly with this stuff. And I feel like there's a big lag there as well. So, it's hard to put your finger on it and generalize about it because there's so much activity, but I still feel a little bit like, you know, sustainability is something that people are talking about, generally more than they're actually doing. And I think part of the problem is that we've fundamentally lived in a world, which is all of the systems were built up in the structure of the global economy. And the way that the industrialized world works is it's heading in one direction, which is unsustainable. So, it's like turning around a gigantic supertanker, you know?Michael: Yes.Richard: Yeah, it's a long process, and we have to change people's attitudes as well as their behavior.Michael: [crosstalk] And you've had a really good crack at doing that, and as a businessperson as well, right? Through Boogie Festival, which I think, sadly, that we've had the last Boogie Festival we're going to have, are we? Is-- Richard: Yeah. Well, there might be another festival but we're just not sure this time, obviously, stating the obvious. But you know, a situation with events is so uncertain. It's already become-- the game's changed a lot from the days when something like the Big Day was happening. Anyway, it's much harder to sell tickets that the costs are going up in the event industry. There are a lot more #compliance and #hurdles and complexity and cost that goes into putting on these events while, you know,-- and it's harder to sell tickets so it's a much more difficult #businessmodel to maintain. So--Michael: It seems like there's maybe a move to these micro[?] owner, it's like called micro festivals, but smaller, more niche festivals, I mean, plenty of people are getting to the regions. But, look on today's episode of Small Business Banter, we're talking right now with Richard Thomas.Richard, another way you've kind of lived out and your sort of core personal values, I think, is through Wormlovers. Do you just want to kind of give us a snapshot of what Wormlovers does right now?Richard: Yes. So, we started Wormlovers, as I was saying, about 8 years ago, and really, there were a number of reasons for setting it up. And I guess the core, the main sort of motivation was really #my passion and my #businesspartner, Gail Davidson's passion for what we were doing. And the sort of-- and also, the sense that there was a time, it felt like it was the right time to do this. I'd had this idea in the back of my mind for a long time of sort of specializing in worm farming and home composting and developing an enterprise which would kind of be part education but part commercial. So, the vision part of it is really important. We do, you know, we have to educate-- we feel like part of what we're doing in Wormlovers is kind of inspiring people to change the world with a worm farm. Michael: I think, one that your tagline or motto is "Love the worm, love the world"?Richard: Yes. And you know, I feel like there's this fascinating thing happening that maybe a lot of people are not aware of, you know, that the species like the worm, the #compostworm, or the #earthworm is so fundamental to our lives. We wouldn't be here without soil, without healthy soil because all of our food comes and all the higher creatures on earth really are dependent on the ecology of the soil. It regulates climate, it's connected to water - the water cycle, it's connected to the nutrient cycle in particular, of cycling nutrients from food and #organicwaste back into the soil, being replenished or back into a worm farm or a compost bin and turning back into healthy nutrients to create more food and more plants and more wellbeing. So, we see ourselves as a vehicle to provide the ability for individuals, both in a home, but also across the board of anyone who eats food. From schools to cafes to councils to, you know, you name it, anywhere where there's food waste produced is a potential site to engage in this process, this incredible process of setting up a worm farm and cycling your organics on the spot, so--Michael: I can hear the purpose of the connection with that core purpose and in the way you talk, but it's taking on a lot to-- You know, when you talk about having a business that is commercial and also educational, it's a big task, isn't it?Richard: Yeah.Michael: To educate through your business, a very honorable one. Wormlovers operates out of a precinct, currently where you've got. It's in... is it Werri...?Richard: Yeah, Werribee.Michael: Werribee, yeah. And so, as part of a complex of a few #environmentalbusinesses down there, but you are farming worms and you're reselling related equipment for households and for small businesses, I guess?Richard: Yeah, that's right. So just to sort of summarize that, these different aspects of the business. And I guess our core business is really our #onlineshop. The operations yard is really there to support the online sales, but also, any commercial work we're doing. We leased some land from @MelbWater out of the #Westerntreatmentplant, and that's where we actually breed our worms, and there are some byproducts from that process. We have big beds that where we breed the worms and we feed them on a mixture of different #feedstocks, #manures, and #coffeegrounds, and #organicwaste. And then, we package those worms up. We also store our inventory of composting products worm farms, such as we import a worm farm from #NewZealand in container loads, called the @hungrybin, which had been probably the best design worm farm that we've ever come across. We have a range of accessories and things that we sell as well. So that yard, basically, supports our online part of the business through online sales. And then, we also do sort of outreach work where we-- and sadly, with the lockdown, this has been one of our struggles as it is for so many small businesses. There's a lot of that work that involved us going out on site. You say got going into a restaurant or a school or a council to set up worm farms and educate people on site.Michael: You just haven't had the opportunities? Richard: No, we just did-- All of those big facilities have just been shut down or so restricted. So, what's happened there is that immediately, people are not eating food because they're not at all on-site. So, there's almost no food right on those sites. There's no--Michael: Everyone's at home. Richard: Yeah, so that's been a real struggle for us because part of what we would do is going out-- Well, particularly around, obviously around Melbourne, and help people set up and troubleshoot their worm farms. We also had a number of contracts; our biggest client was the @cityofMelbourne. With the lockdown, they had to shut down all of their sites and so we lost that contract to actually help. We had about half a dozen sites, and we do monthly or regular visits to work with the staff and just keep the worm farms in good health. We also had gardens that we're managing, so often, we'd set up really high yield #containergardens and some of these gardens are on #rooftops and in schools and in line-wise around Melbourne and community centers and things like that. So anyway, all of that work was lost with the lockdown sadly so that's been one of our struggles.Michael: Yeah, as you said, it's affected so many businesses and so many people and really forces you to rethink the way you do business. And, you know, we all need that inspiration when things are particularly tough, so personally, with Wormlovers, you're probably getting to the point where that's seen natural cycle, you move on...?Richard: Yeah. I think after 8 years of just eating, sleeping, as is for almost small business owners, you know, it just takes over your life.Michael: It can completely dominate, particularly, when someone like you who is so connected, enthusiastic, with the reason the businesses is there.Richard: Yeah. [crosstalk] No, you're absolutely right. And I think there are positives and negatives about that, being so connected to what you're doing because you've got to have a passion, you've got to have belief, and you've got to really get your up in the morning and believe in what you're doing. But at the same time, I think it's probably healthy to be able to maintain some kind of distance as well from what you're doing. And that's, I think, one of the struggles, I think that trying to find that balance can be difficult.Michael: I don't know in the work I do that that many people get that right. You know, that maybe you get it right for a period of time and it's certainly not to say you shouldn't be aiming to find that a bit of a boundary between the two but, you know, sometimes, you can't help yourself.Richard: That's right, yeah. And I'm sure I'm not alone. I'm sure these small business owners all over the country that have the same struggle of sort of, you know, they're still thinking about it late at night, you wake up in the morning, it's the first thing you think about, and just the ongoing, you know, it just doesn't stop, does it? So--Michael: It doesn't stop and I think there comes a time-- you know, for you, there's a time when you start to think about perhaps a #newventure, a new pathway. So, in your case, I think you're looking at a venture in Tasmania?Richard: Yeah, that's right. So, what I'm looking to do over the next couple of years is to basically work towards, maybe exiting Wormlovers or looking for a joint venture or reconfiguring it in some way or another. And obviously, putting a lot of thought into how that might manifest.Michael: Yeah.Richard: And then, looking at this project, down in Tassie, so I've had a share in a beautiful spot down on the #MerseyRiver in northern Tasmania, an old farm. And we're looking at sort of developing that as a sort of #sanctuary or #retreat. It'll be a multipurpose, sort of location for potentially-- It's got incredible #fishing there[?], so for as a fishing lodge, but also making it available for sort of events of one sort or another. We've had a couple of weddings. We've had some sort of parties down there, like 50th birthday or whatever. But also, for things like, maybe meditation, yoga, retreats, maybe somewhere for, you know, any kind of group to really go and be in this really beautiful natural environment surrounded by wilderness on this river. It's got a really incredible sort of vibe. So that's sort of what I'm looking at next, it's working on that. And that part of that will also be probably incorporating a lot of these sustainable, environmental kind of themes that I've been working on.Michael: They're not going to go away from you, right? Those--Richard: No [laughing]Michael: It sounds like, also Tazi, you spent some formative time there, and you’re kind of going back there. Richard: Yeah, it's like a full cycle. Yes. Nice. Michael: Yeah. Just in closing, Richard, it's so wonderful to talk to business owners, that's what we're about on Small Business Banter, and sharing that. There's a pathway for you to move on from Wormlovers and on to something else, but I'm just keen in the last minute to kind of if you got some sort of tips or ideas or people that influenced you heavily in the way you go about running your day-to-day business that other owners could come[?] refer to.Richard: Yeah. Well, I'm probably not the-- I probably don't-- maybe I'm not having a very clear way that I look at this., but I do tend to talk to other business owners. I think that's probably my main source of sort of understanding, and I'm always intrigued by how other businesses work. So, I'm always trying to find out, "How does that thing work?" You know, you see something that you've never heard of, and you go, "That's a business? That's fascinating. How did someone get that turn into a business?" I think that's part of the-- but I'm kind of inspired by people like @David Holmglen who started the #Permaculture movement. Obviously, not from a business perspective, but I guess I'm interested in the philosophy of working with nature and how sustainability works, so I do a lot of research in that area. So yeah, I guess it's--Michael: I think the, you know, talking to other business owners-- as long as you're talking to somebody, right?Richard: Yeah.Michael: Ideally, some [inaudible] can kind of, you know, because it is a battle, and it's been hard, through the last 12, 18 months, especially. And sharing with other owners, which is kind of like this program, we often get on owners and they talk about their successes and their challenges. So, I think that's as good as any, you know, for other people listening in, talk to owners, like other owners like Richard does.Richard, we're out of time. I just wanted to say thank you very much for sharing that fascinating background, that crossing over environmentalism, music, business. It's wonderful to hear. I really appreciate your time and I wish you well as you kind of move down to that next venture in Tazi and maybe pass on Wormlovers to somebody else to take up the fight. Richard: Yeah, great. Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate it, it's great to talk to you. Michael: Alright. Thanks, Richard. Richard: Thanks. Bye-bye. See you.Michael: So that's all for today's episode of Small Business Banter. I continue to be inspired, bringing new small business experts and other small business owners and hearing their stories and their experiences. For any of the links, resources, or information we've talked about on the show today, or just to contact me, please head over to smallbusinessbanter.com or find Small Business Banter on Facebook or Instagram. It'd be really great to have you tune in at the same time next week for another episode of Small Business Banter.[End] Thanks for listening.  Visit the Owner To Owner Podcast website to subscribe, listen back, or check out any resources or information mentioned on the show.Search @ownertoownerpodcast on your favourite podcast player to subscribe and listen to the episodes.Reach out to Michael Kerr via the website if you need personal assistance or advice for your small business.michael.kerr@kerrcapital.com.auwww.ownertoownerpodcast.com.au