Systematic

This week’s guest is Tyler Hall, a prolific Mac and iOS Developer, and father of two. He joins Brett to discuss developing apps that scratch your own itch, and making a profit doing it. Show Links Click On Tyler – Productivity-Boosting Mac Apps for Web Developers and Designers Tyler.io Twitter: @tylerhall GitHub: tylerhall LinkedIn: tylerhall Virtual Host X HostBuddy Rebudget Amnesia (contact Tyler) HistoryHound Top 3 Picks Grammarly Sendy Whoosh The Wood Brothers Spotify Apple Music The Muse (YouTube) Two Places (YouTube) Shoefly Pie (YouTube) Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at systematicpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting app. Find Brett as @ttscoff on all social media platforms, and follow Systematic at @systmcast on Twitter. Transcript Soundtrack [00:00:00]Soundtrack: [00:00:00] Hello, I’m Brett Terpstra and you’re listening to systematic. [00:00:04]Brett: [00:00:04] This week’s guest is Tyler Hall, a Mac and iOS developer, and a father. And I’ve been looking forward to talking to him because he’s on about the same level of a geek frequency as me. How’s it going, Tyler? [00:00:17]Tyler: [00:00:17] Great. How are you doing Brett? [00:00:18] Brett: [00:00:18] I am. Uh, I woke up in with neck pain. So if you hear me wincing, if that comes through the microphone, that’s just from sitting in a chair. [00:00:29] So you’re, uh, the reason I know you and know of you, it, well, it actually goes back to one of your apps. Uh, virtual host x. Which I’ve used for like a decade now. Um, but yeah, you, you, you’re just, you’re a prolific developer around the time that NBL came out, you had a, an app called Nottingham that was another kind of notational velocity type of application. [00:00:56] Uh, you build a lot of apps. Is that, is that kind of [00:01:00] primarily what you do these days? [00:01:01]Tyler: [00:01:01] Yeah, I mean, I did web development, you know, from college on, through like 2008 or nine. And you know, that whole time I’m building web dev, you know, I’m running on a Mac. So I started learning how to do, you know, McCoist development around 2003. And then I just kind of, you know, split my time and made the transition to full time Mac and iOS around 2010. [00:01:21] And that’s what I’ve been doing for the past decade. [00:01:24] Brett: [00:01:24] And what kind of, what kind of Mac apps would you say you right. [00:01:29]Tyler: [00:01:29] they all start out almost a hundred percent solving problems that I have myself, every app that I’ve tried to build that I thought. Would it be a good app or I thought I saw a market for, but I wasn’t necessarily a fan of myself have failed miserably. So I’ve stopped trying to make things that I think will sell. [00:01:50] And instead I do stuff for myself first and foremost, [00:01:53] Brett: [00:01:53] I, I, I think that’s a laudable. I think there are people out there who do manage to make [00:02:00] apps they know will sell and aren’t necessarily things they need. But in the indie developer community, I think the fix fix your own problem. Uh, kind of scenario does end up working out well for people [00:02:15]Tyler: [00:02:15] and that’s exactly where virtual host X came from was at the time I was a full time web dev and I needed that, you know, to do my nine to five job. And so that’s where the inspiration for it came. [00:02:26] Brett: [00:02:26] Oh, well, give us a quick explanation. Uh, four, four O a wide, an audience that might not be into web development, kind of, kind of give an explanation of what that app does. [00:02:36]Tyler: [00:02:36] Yeah. So if you’re building websites, it’s a lot faster and easier to test them locally on your Mac than dealing with, you know, a web server in a data center somewhere. But the crux of that is, is by default, the way the web server is set up, you can only use one website at a time, which is fine for some people. [00:02:53] But like for me back then, I was doing lots and lots of client work for web agencies. And so I’d have, you know, [00:03:00] 10 projects going on at once. And so VHX really quickly let’s use, spin up and use. Multiple websites running on the same Mac at the same time. And that was the kind of the initial core of the idea. [00:03:11] And since then, it’s grown to encompass more and more features that are kind of, you know, 10 gentle to that type of workflow. [00:03:18] Brett: [00:03:18] Yeah. And, uh, and recently macOS, by default disabled, their internal web server. Does it even exist anymore? [00:03:27]Tyler: [00:03:27] Uh, Apache is still. Buried in the, you know, the guts of Mac iOS, but if you download or I guess, purchase Mac iOS server from the app store, um, no, it’s completely gone now. There are no more settings to enable it, to configure it in any way. [00:03:41] Brett: [00:03:41] so, uh, so virtual hoops, that’s had to make some, uh, some alterations to, uh, to accommodate that. [00:03:48] Tyler: [00:03:48] Yeah. I’d actually kind of jumped ship from that earlier. About a year and a half prior and move from using the native web server on the Mac to doing everything through a virtual machine with virtual box, because [00:04:00] Mac had tightened down the restrictions and, uh, complaint was anytime somebody would, you know, update their OSTP from Apple, even just a small updates, it would blow away their web server settings. [00:04:11] But then by moving, VHX over to isolate and own the whole system itself, I can prevent that and have more control of myself. [00:04:18] Brett: [00:04:18] well, it has become quite a powerful application. I am, uh, after that, that major, upgrade this switch to the virtual box. Uh, I was. Kind of blown away by the, uh, level of detail that you, you took with the, uh, all the options and the capabilities of it. Nice work. [00:04:36] Tyler: [00:04:36] Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. [00:04:38] Brett: [00:04:38] Um, in addition to that, uh, commercially you have several other applications available. [00:04:44] Um, but you also, I am aware you, you write a lot of apps that probably never see the light of day. Uh, you, you, you, you have a problem. And you create an app to fix it. And [00:05:00] that that’s kind of amazing. Uh, you had a, uh, one that, uh, I don’t know if you ever published it as a commercial app. Uh, but the, the one that, um, watched your web history, so you could search, do full tech search. [00:05:17]Tyler: [00:05:17] Yes. I started building that this past January. It actually dates back to an idea from 2011. I had, I wrote a browser extension back then called elephants. Cause you know, elephants have this great memory. And every time I would visit a website, it would just simply send the URL to a web server in the cloud and to store in a database. [00:05:39] And that’s about, as far as I got with the idea, this idea of like a unified history of what you viewed we’re on the internet. And back then, I kind of gave up the idea because the tech just wasn’t there to sync it and to do it right. And then I started revisiting the idea early this year and it’s come pretty far and I use it day to day. [00:05:57] I haven’t quite figured out. [00:06:00] The full direction. I’m still experimenting. So maybe it’ll come out one day. [00:06:04] Brett: [00:06:04] Yeah, that’d be cool. Um, let’s see. What are your other commercial apps? You have host buddy, which is if I’m not mistaken, kind of a, a bare bones version of virtual host stacks that just works on the, does he, does it work now? [00:06:18]Tyler: [00:06:18] yeah, it still does. I kind of feel bad. Like it’s such a simple app. It’s basically a text editor for one file. Like you open the app and all you can do is edit one file. And that’s just the host file on your Mac. Um, it’s got a couple more smarts to it. So where you can create groups of these web servers, you want it to on and off with one click so you can kind of organize them, but by and large people buy it because they themselves aren’t. [00:06:44] Comfortable enough, you know, opening up the command line, you know, doing something with admin privileges. It just it’s quick, easy. And it works [00:06:52] Brett: [00:06:52] so it’s geared towards web developers without a lot of command line experience. [00:06:57]Tyler: [00:06:57] yeah. I’m talking to [00:07:00] customers. I think the biggest audience are, um, less technical web developers. So like kind of the designers who know a bit of Java script and just want to spin up WordPress and play around with it. Yeah. [00:07:11] Brett: [00:07:11] I forget about designers. Alright. I think you and I, you and I both did web development in an era where you kind of had to be all in one. And the idea of like specializing, which is coming back around now, I feel like the full stack developers are a thing again, but, um, the idea of being able to create a website without knowing how to SSH into a server was kind of crazy, but, um, [00:07:40] Tyler: [00:07:40] And I, I think it’s healthy to have both sides of that equation, the developer and the designer. You don’t have to be an expert at both, but if you’re a dev who can pick colors or pick fonts correctly, you can get a long way and vice versa on the design side. [00:07:54] Brett: [00:07:54] well, and also you can communicate if you’re in a, if you’re in a team where you are [00:08:00] fo you’re focused on one side or the other, or even a server side, um, you need to be able to communicate with the other side designers. [00:08:13] Tyler: [00:08:13] that shared language and you need to know the industry standard terms of how to talk to one another. [00:08:18] Brett: [00:08:18] I worked on a team where the designers were truly graphic designers and had no real concept of user interface or web in general. [00:08:29] And they would give us ideas that would be nearly impossible to implement and to go back and forth with them was an exercise in frustration. [00:08:39] Tyler: [00:08:39] Yeah, I’ve, I’m fighting that battle every day in my nine to five job right now. [00:08:43]Brett: [00:08:43] All right, you have one other commercial app. I want to mention called rebudget. And, uh, that is an another take. There, there are plenty of apps in this sphere, but tell us about rate budget. [00:08:55]Tyler: [00:08:55] so it came again out of a need I had, which was, [00:09:00] um, you know, we’re trying to plan our family budget money got tight for a while, and we’re trying to dig our way out of some medical debt. So. I just had this awful, you know, kind of Excel spreadsheet. I was using that full Calca app for Mac and iOS. That kind of lets you do math in a text editor to kind of do it your own way. [00:09:20] And I was just basically forecasting our family budget. Like we had our recurring bills that, you know, come in monthly. We had bills that came in every other week or weekly for like daycare expenses. And then of course, you know, large purchases and one off things. And forecasting that, you know, a dynamic kind of amount of money going out, but with money coming in, you know, I had my freelance income, which fluctuates and then my wife’s paycheck was on a different schedule than my paycheck. [00:09:49] So it was kind of like this rising and falling balance over time. And I want it to be able to see that kind of insight, the future, not like years, but just literally months into the [00:10:00] future or week by week. And so I had this combination of Excel files. I would try and do it for me. And then at one point I wrote a script in PHP to do it faster. [00:10:11] And then I thought, well, crap, I’ll just I’ll use Swift. But before I got really far doing the Swiffers and I thought I’ll just make the Mac out myself and do it. And, and so from like last August through November, I was running it myself just in a bare bones form and I showed it to a friend and they liked the idea. [00:10:31] So I thought, well, let’s try it. And then I released it new year’s day, this year. [00:10:37] Brett: [00:10:37] and how did it do [00:10:38]Tyler: [00:10:38] Uh, pretty awful actually. Um, I’m getting tons and tons of downloads and trials, but there’s very few conversions. So I don’t know if. I think the price is probably too high, but I also don’t know if I have the limitations, you know, the, um, of what you can do in the free version versus the paid version set correctly. [00:10:59] So there’s still some [00:11:00] experimentation to do. [00:11:01] Brett: [00:11:01] Pricing is my least favorite. Developing is fun. Uh, selling is fun coming up with the. A price point. That’s going to maximize sales is a mystic art that I have never mastered. [00:11:17]Tyler: [00:11:17] So with VHX, which was my first, in 2007, I started out selling it for a flat $7 and looking back, that seems insane, but I mean, I had no appeal. I didn’t have my app at the time. I didn’t think anybody would buy it to begin with. And I actually sold one copy the first day. It was on my website, which is blew my mind, but starting at $7, I started raising the price and every time I up the price. [00:11:45] My revenue went up and that happened consistently all the way up until I tried $59 and then sales tanked. So I rolled it back to 49 and that’s been the sweet spot for like the past five years. [00:11:59] Brett: [00:11:59] Four 49 [00:12:00] is kind of that, uh, it’s the premium at price. It’s what you’d pay for something like a, um, affinity publisher, or you would pay for OmniFocus. So it puts you right in that a premium app. Sweet spot. I started [00:12:15] Tyler: [00:12:15] this, isn’t a tool that, yeah. It’s not a tool that you screw around with in your personal time. Like most people are doing this for their job to make money. So a lot of times it’s a business expense. [00:12:24] Brett: [00:12:24] Right. I started marked out, which is my longest running commercial app. Uh, I started out at two 99 and these days I charged 15 for it, which seems to, I, I settled on that as I don’t have a high opinion of my own apps either. Like it, I don’t know what it would take for me to consider, uh, an app. Good. [00:12:48] But as far as I’m concerned, I haven’t made that app yet. Um, but it does, it sells and at, at 15 bucks it does a pretty good job. So yeah, I’ve settled on [00:13:00] that. Now I’m trying to price, uh, my new envy ultra. Uh, the successor to NVL, I’m trying to figure out pricing on that and we’re getting into the whole, like, we want to offer it through the Mac app store. [00:13:14] We want to have free trials and we want to have paid upgrades. And the only way to accomplish those three things is with subscription. [00:13:22]Tyler: [00:13:22] Yeah. [00:13:23] Brett: [00:13:23] and as much as, uh, as Fletcher and I are both opposed to the idea of subscription, like w we just both shy away from it. Um, [00:13:32] Tyler: [00:13:32] doesn’t it just make you feel dirty as a [00:13:34] Brett: [00:13:34] does. It really [00:13:35] Tyler: [00:13:35] Oh God. [00:13:36] Brett: [00:13:36] Like if, if we, we could do no, I really, I think free trials are really the way to go with this app because we need people to be able to right. Using NBO alt or any text-based note system, it’s an easy sell, uh, It’s it’s basically your favorite note, text editor with a full multi [00:14:00] markdown editor built into it. But for people taking notes in other systems that could benefit from plain text, you have to show them how they have to be able to experience it before they’re going to drop money on it. [00:14:14] So I really feel like we need a, a free trial. Anyway, [00:14:18] Tyler: [00:14:18] Well, I am. Oh God. [00:14:20]Brett: [00:14:20] I’m sorry. How, how overall you, you, you maintain a full time job and you develop, have you ever gotten to a point where you thought you could, uh, switch to just being an independent developer? [00:14:33]Tyler: [00:14:33] I did for a few years. Um, like I said, when I launched that first app for $7, we had just bought our first tiny little. 80 year old college cottage house in Nashville. I mean, it was like 800 square feet and the hardwood floors were just awful. And so when I launched this app, my longterm biggest goal in mind was to earn like five grand over the lifetime of the app. [00:14:59] So we [00:15:00] could not replace, but actually just refinish the floors in his house. That was my, you know, end of life goal for this app. And. It just completely exceeded my expectations. I mean, it didn’t take off like a rocket, but over time it built. And by 2012, at which point I had VHX and Nottingham and I had tried a few other things by 2012, I just made the leap and it did become my full time job. [00:15:26] And so my wife had hers and I just had my indie apps and we did that. And then we had our first kid in 2014. And so she quit her job so she could stay at home and, you know, as he’s an infant and everything. And then I went back to work dev full time while still doing the indie stuff on the side. And then for our guests, the next four years. [00:15:47]It was enough income. And we were fortunate enough that she could stay home and take care of the kids while they’re young. And I kept doing both jobs full time. And then in 2018, sorry, L’s just had [00:16:00] reached a level where it w it wasn’t sustainable anymore. I think part of that was. The web industry had changed. [00:16:07] So my sales of my web apps had fallen. I think the app store kind of had some issues as there was transitioning from paid up front to subscriptions. And so she went back to work. I kept my full time job, and now we kind of have this low level, third job that brings in very helpful income, but it’s not enough to survive full time on [00:16:27]Brett: [00:16:27] Yeah. So w so when I went into, I was making a six figure salary and my daytime job, and I was bringing in almost that much again, on my India apps. And so I figured I could live on half of that. And then everything fell out from underneath the app sales for, I think a lot of the same reasons you’re talking about. And, uh, yeah, things have been, I kind [00:17:00] of wish I’d never left my full time job, but I’m also super happy. So there’s that trade off. If I had kids, I definitely would be way happier, not having a full time job. Of course, [00:17:13] Tyler: [00:17:13] I agree with. [00:17:14] Brett: [00:17:14] too, maybe. [00:17:16] Tyler: [00:17:16] Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. But in the back of my mind, like even, even if my revenue goes up, which I hope it does and I’m trying to make happen, even if it reaches the magical number, we need it frightens the hell out of me. Like. Not to have a safety net of an employer. I mean, you know, when we were, when we were just my wife and I with no kids, it felt fine. [00:17:37] Like we could at the drop of a hat move or do whatever we needed to do, or we could cut expenses. But with kids, there’s the space level you have to have. It feels like, and it’s frightening. [00:17:47] Brett: [00:17:47] right. Well, yeah. And, uh, uncertainty is, is fine for single and usually younger people, but you hit a point in life where, uh, that safety [00:18:00] net really is, is part of peace of mind. If you’re gonna, if you’re going to live a happy life, you want a safety net? I would no, not having one myself. Um, so out of all the apps you’ve written, uh, excluding commercial apps, what’s your favorite? [00:18:17] What’s the one that you get the most delight out of? [00:18:22]Tyler: [00:18:22] Oh, that’s a good question. Um, [00:18:24] Brett: [00:18:24] I want to hear the nerdiest thing, cause [00:18:27] Tyler: [00:18:27] the nerdiest [00:18:28] Brett: [00:18:28] I assume that the nurse okay. If you’re like me. The nerdiest, the one that’s so nerdy that you didn’t think anyone would ever care about, but it suited your needs super well. I’d be curious to know what that one is. [00:18:40]Tyler: [00:18:40] Okay right now, the top of mind is the one you mentioned earlier, the, the browser history one, which I’ve been calling amnesia because my, my, my temporary tagline is get amnesia and you’ll never forget. thank thank you. Yeah, I’ll be here all night. Um, so I’m Nisha is a Mac [00:19:00] app that. Ideally runs in the background of your Mac. [00:19:04] And then there are browser extensions for all the major, major browsers that communicate back to it. And every time you go to a webpage, it sends it over to amnesia. And like I said, it starts out just by sending the literal URL you visit, but then it also captures the full text contents of the page you’re visiting as well. [00:19:24]And then it can optionally also take a snapshot of the webpage. So in addition to having the full text, which you can then search and find your history of, you can see either a PDF or a JPEG or, you know, an Apple web archive of the page as you visited at that moment. And it’s all stored locally on your Mac or sync through iCloud to the companion iOS app. [00:19:49]And so you have this ultimate limited memory that you can search and reference and filter of what you’ve seen on the internet. And my use [00:20:00] case is it has this notion of sessions where like, when I’m working on a bug or a product feature that I’m researching how to solve, I’ll start a session and then do all my stack overflow research or read dirty blogs or whatever. [00:20:13] And then when I’m done that session is saved and grouped. And then I can go back in time, months later and revisit and see exactly what I was searching for. Like my research notes, basically. Yeah. [00:20:23] Brett: [00:20:23] Yeah. That would be super helpful to not only build the, find a page, but find kind of the, uh, the family of pages that you were, you were immersed and at the time that’s cool. Um, it should be mentioned at this point that there’s an app from st. Claire software called history hound. That I remember you telling me you, you had avoided looking at because you were developing, uh, uh, an isolate in, uh, you want, you didn’t want to be influenced by its features. [00:20:51] Did you ever take a look at history home? [00:20:53] Tyler: [00:20:53] Yeah, I had used history hound, maybe three or four years ago, so I was familiar with it. But by the time I [00:21:00] kind of got this kind of larger vision for what amnesia could do for me. I hadn’t seen it in a while. And so that’s when I decided I don’t want to take a look. I don’t want to like spoil my idea or inadvertently rip them off in some awful way. So I still haven’t looked so I hope I might completely duplicating their efforts. [00:21:18] Brett: [00:21:18] Yeah, well, I haven’t used it for a while myself, so I, uh, I couldn’t do a comparison for you, but I’m going to assume based on my use of it in the past that it doesn’t do this, this, uh, what’d you call it a session. [00:21:34]Tyler: [00:21:34] Yeah. [00:21:36] Brett: [00:21:36] which, which I think is a great idea. So is amnesia available for people to try or is it still private? [00:21:43]Tyler: [00:21:43] If somebody wants to email me, I’ll give them a beta version to try it. I’ve got maybe 10 users out there who have done that so far and just really kind of quiet, just kind of seeing what comes out of it. [00:21:55] Brett: [00:21:55] All right. Um, so you, you mentioned that you were [00:22:00] switching from PHP and you’ve tried doing it in Swift and ended up making a Mac app, which is something I’ve experienced. Um, I tend to start in Ruby. This is where bunch came from. Bunch started as a bunch of my back’s launcher that works on textiles. Um, but it started as a complex Ruby script that eventually I decided. [00:22:22] Uh, would just be easier to make a, uh, an app for, um, but it’s the Swift, the Swiss step that I’m curious about, uh, w you’re doing, uh, not app development specifically, but also scripting in Swift. And I want to know more about that. Cause I I’ve, I’ve used Swift command line apps, but I’ve never tried it as a scripting language. [00:22:50] Tyler: [00:22:50] It’s so refreshing, certainly easy. I don’t know how easy it was like in the early days of Swift, but now it’s just a delight to use because I fire up X code. [00:23:00] I import the Swift teams. Awesome. Command line argument, parser Swift package. And then you just get, you know, uh, you know, a main file, like main dot M or whatever, start to see. [00:23:12] And just top to bottom, you build your script and then you can import other files and, you know, do the usual object oriented Swift stuff, or however you want. All, all the frameworks are there and foundation, all the tools of Swift are there and you just get the nice editing environment of X code with break points and syntax checking and type safety. [00:23:32] Okay. And it just a delight to use with the full power. And not that you can’t do that with like what I was doing with PHP before, but it’s just easier and it feels faster to build it and is what I’ve noticed. And so I’ve kind of gone from doing it. Yeah. Everything and PHP or bash to, to Swift by default. [00:23:50] Brett: [00:23:50] If I have ’em resisted Swift up until this point. Uh, how hard do you think it would be for someone with a good background in objective C as [00:24:00] well as in languages like Python or Ruby to finally get into Swift. [00:24:05]Tyler: [00:24:05] Uh, I th I think it was pretty easy to pick up. Like I kinda got in trouble from some people one time on Twitter when I made a snarky comment that the best decision of my career was avoiding Swift the first two or three years. Like I was so excited about the language, but I also know I want to get work done. [00:24:23] It feels very influx, which it was. And so for the folks that are able to jump in during, and that kind of extended beta phase, you know, that was awesome. I’m glad they helped steer the language, but once it hits Swift three and then four, I went in full time and it was just a delight to use at that point. [00:24:40] And it was. Apple has this vision for it as kind of this beginner language with like the playgrounds that anybody can get into. And I don’t think that’s the case at all. I find it very high level optionals and closures everywhere. I would say your younger people towards Python, that seems easier to get into, but if you’re experienced, I [00:25:00] think it’s pretty quick to pick up. [00:25:01] Brett: [00:25:01] I, uh, yeah, Python’s never been my strong point, but when people come to me and say, I want to get into coding. And I have like zero background, zero experience. Where should I start? I do generally point them to Python. [00:25:14]Tyler: [00:25:14] and like, I may make a fool of myself by saying this, cause I’m not a Python expert at all, but like, even when you’re doing Swift. You still have to know the whole retain release stance and how that works under the hood. You still have to know about pointers. I mean, you can ignore it, but you’re going to get yourself in trouble if he’s tried doing anything complicated. [00:25:32] Brett: [00:25:32] I ignored that for my first decade, like I taught my, I taught myself Apple script is how I, well, I, VB script is how I started back on PC, but then I learned Apple script. I learned how to make an objective C wrapper for Apple script using the bridge, and then started to learn objective C from there. But I had no real computer science history and, uh, was very prone to, um, Changing [00:26:00] lines until it worked, but never understanding why, which will get you in trouble. And it took me five years of relearning things to get good. [00:26:10]Tyler: [00:26:10] Yeah. I was a visual basic coder, you know, as a kid and in middle school and high school in the nineties and then started doing web dev. But then I was lucky enough that when I went to college and did computer science, not only did they teach me the foundations of everything, but at that time, They still teaching CNC plus, plus they hadn’t switched to Java yet. [00:26:31] And now they’re actually onto Python. I think. So I got that low level C education that I don’t know if I would have attempted on my own. And so when I went to doing Mac stuff, well, objective C is just a layer on top of C. So that was very easy to pick up. And so that kind of inadvertently set me up for my entire career. [00:26:48]Brett: [00:26:48] Yeah. I could have used that. I started, um, a computer science degree at the university of Minnesota. Uh, flunked or I took a w in calc two. [00:27:00] Uh, I don’t know if I’m bad at math. I think I was in a class of 365 people. And, uh, I like to sit in the back, which is great in a class of 365 people. And then we had our little breakout sessions with, uh, a teacher. [00:27:16] I couldn’t understand, uh, his accent at all. And so I think I just gave up and decided I was bad at math at that point and went to art school instead. Um, these days I think, I think if I were to take calc again, I would find it a lot more fascinating, but it was the reason I flunked out of, uh, computer science to begin with. [00:27:39]Tyler: [00:27:39] calc was actually my favorite of all the maths I took. Like it, it, it fit my brain. I never use it day to day ever, but I loved it. [00:27:46] Brett: [00:27:46] And I really think it fits my brain too. The more I kind of like. Uh, dabble in understanding with no formal education in it. Uh, it kind of dabble and understanding the more like my curiosity is peaked in a way [00:28:00] that it never was back then. I think I’m not actually bad at math. And I think, yeah, calculus, uh, works with the way that I want to solve problems. [00:28:11] I just, I gave up on it too soon. [00:28:13]Tyler: [00:28:13] For like in the real world, in my job, the math I use 100% the most is just geometry, just all the time. And so like revisiting what I was learning in eighth and ninth, 10th grade has just helped me so much later in my career, as I’m just manipulating things on screen. It just makes it so much easier to having that foundation there. [00:28:34] Brett: [00:28:34] Yeah. Um, do you there’s these, there are these calculations where I try to figure out. Uh, ratios of like scroll rates. I can’t, yeah. Think of the exact time that this an exact example of this, but. There’s a S and I think it might be geometry that I’m trying to wrap my head around in these cases, but I’m figuring out what is the [00:29:00] equation that will give me, I guess I’m basically doing algebra, but I’m trying to figure out what w what is the equation where this movement on screen would correlate to this movement onscreen. [00:29:12] And it’s never as simple as I think it should be. And I ended up just punching in numbers and didn’t knew me. Until I get until, until I’ve solved for X. And then I look at how I got there. Um, yeah. Bad math education. [00:29:26]Tyler: [00:29:26] The one that screws me up and I will literally have to write it out on a piece of paper. Every time is when I need to. Like resize an image and get the appropriate width and height for the new size. Like you have to do like width over height equals with over height of the other one with like one number missing. [00:29:43] Like, I can’t do that in my head anymore. [00:29:44] Brett: [00:29:44] Oh, that’s the one. [00:29:46] Tyler: [00:29:46] I can not now. [00:29:47]Brett: [00:29:47] Oh, well, uh, I will stop showcasing how bad I had, how bad my math education is here. Um, this does bring us around to the top three picks and, uh, I would be very curious [00:30:00] to hear what yours are. [00:30:01]Tyler: [00:30:01] Yeah. So this was an interesting question. You posed the three pics and I started going through the things that I’ve been using most frequently that have surprised me with how much I’m using them. So the first one is Grammarly, I guess, grammarly.com. The grammar checking service I have had there. IOS keyboard installed on my phone, I guess, since iOS eight, whenever those things became a thing. [00:30:29] And I think I’ve used it exactly one time. Like I had it there and I liked the idea of it, but the thought in my head of everything, I was typing, being sent to some service, just freaked me out. And so I’d never used it, but then maybe nine months ago, I don’t know how I came across it again. Or the idea popped into my head and I thought. [00:30:50] I really would like to see how good they are, but I was still uncomfortable all with like that data going to them, but then something clicked and I thought maybe if [00:31:00] I’m a paying customer, I feel better versus just being on the free tier and Holy crap, they’re expensive. So I was like weighing like the monthly cost is like 30 bucks a month. [00:31:10] And look, which is fine, I guess, if your employer pays for it. So I ended up going for like $50 for like a three month quarter just to try it out. And it’s just the most amazingly wonderful service I’ve used in a long time. Like all my blog posts, all my JIRA comments, my emails, anything that’s going to more than one person that I don’t want to look like a fool in front of. [00:31:33] I just throw in a Grammarly really quickly. And of course it does spell checking it, it finds comma splices or screw ups, but then it’s like, Hey, you’re using passive voice here. You should correct that. Or this sentence sounds confusing and it will actually reword and rewrite your sentence. To be more direct and make more sense. [00:31:53] And it catches things in my writing that I never knew I was doing. And I’m like, that’s such an improvement and I just [00:32:00] love it. And every week, and every month they send you a little email report of your writing score, what you’ve written. And I did not know how much I was writing until I started using them. [00:32:11] I think last month of what I had them check for me was like just North of 65,000 words. And it just blew me away. [00:32:20] Brett: [00:32:20] that’s a lot of words. Um, I do you get into note at all? [00:32:25]Tyler: [00:32:25] I’ve dabbled with it. Uh, VHX used to have, uh, an old web service that used it. Yeah. [00:32:30] Brett: [00:32:30] There are dozens of node packages. Each one’s doing specifically like one aspect of what something like Grammarly does. And I’ve always toyed with building my own, like home brew service for that kind of thing. But I have experimented with Grammarly and there are some things that it. Uh, catches and rewrites that I don’t know how they did it. [00:32:54] Like, I, I aye. You can’t, uh, uh, aside from [00:33:00] having human interaction or huge, vast dictionaries, which they probably do, um, it’s kinda, it’s kind of amazing the stuff they do with just basic machine learning and, uh, [00:33:11]Tyler: [00:33:11] And like some of the advanced features they offer, you can’t even try on their free tier. Like it’s either sign up and use it or you don’t get to try it at all. And so that’s why I think I was hesitant like the, the sentence rewriting, like. Uh, the other, the blog post I published a day or two ago, it took a sentence and basically reverse the order of the subject and now, and, and the phrasing and move like I, a small section between commas around and like, Oh my goodness, that’s such a better way to phrase it. [00:33:42] And I don’t know how they do it. [00:33:44]Brett: [00:33:44] Yeah, so, so basically it’s a, it’s a really good, it’s like having a really good editor, which you would pay probably more for. Uh, and if you’re writing enough, if you’re writing 65,000 words, then yeah. I could [00:34:00] see that being worth the, uh, the price of admission there. [00:34:02]Tyler: [00:34:02] Yeah, [00:34:04] Brett: [00:34:04] All right. What’s your second pick? [00:34:06]Tyler: [00:34:06] this one goes out for all the, any developers out there running their own little business. Um, I guess everybody, and I think you do to use MailChimp for your mailing lists. [00:34:15] Brett: [00:34:15] I have, yes. [00:34:16] Tyler: [00:34:16] Okay. Um, I used them forever. Me too. Yeah. And that’s this, this is the reason for this pig, which is I don’t want to spend my customers. [00:34:26] So I would only send out two, three, maybe four newsletters a year. And with my subscriber count, every time I would send out a blast with MailChimp, it was like $200. And so I basically stopped sending, cause I never thought my message was worth. Dropping $200 just to send. And then three, four years ago, I got a newsletter from Gus Mueller over at flying meats. [00:34:51] And I noticed that one of the links in the email was, you know, it was like a click tracker and it was to this [00:35:00] domain, Cindy dot, flying, meet.com his domain. I like, what is Cindy? So I went there and looked it up and I think it’s like, The product is cindy.co.co. And they are newsletter software that you run and host yourself. [00:35:13] It just PHP base. It’s not open source, but you can view the source once you buy it. So you host it on your web server or wherever, and they send emails through, um, Amazon’s SES email service. So the, for the price of sending the MailChimp, which was $200 per newsletter. It’s like maybe 50 cents and I’ve had the same delivery rates. [00:35:36] I have no problem with spam filtering. It does click tracking if you want it. It does reports open tracking. It’s phenomenal. And now I don’t feel this barrier whenever I want to send an email out to my customers. [00:35:49] Brett: [00:35:49] Yeah that. So I have a, I have a MailChimp list with 11,000 people on it and I have 200 credits. [00:36:00] In MailChimp that are about to expire in November, which is not enough to send an email to everybody on the list. And I don’t have any reason to send it to part of the email list. So basically I’m going to lose a couple hundred dollars worth of MailChimp credits, which is very far why would those expire? [00:36:17] I P O w anyway, have you heard of swoosh? [00:36:22]Tyler: [00:36:22] no. Wait, is that the Mac app? [00:36:25]Brett: [00:36:25] It’s a Mac app that also it uses Amazon SES to, uh, to send out for pennies a piece, um, or [00:36:34] Tyler: [00:36:34] Would they be able to get the open tracking them? [00:36:37] Brett: [00:36:37] I don’t know. I don’t know, might be worth looking into, but developing emails, like the beauty of MailChimp is the templates. And these ready to go. [00:36:49] Good-looking emails that you know, are going to work across different email readers, which is the hardest part of, of sending HTML newsletters, emails. [00:37:00] [00:37:00] Tyler: [00:37:00] well, I’ll tell you my solution to that problem, which was, I don’t have a solution with Cindy, so I just send plain text [00:37:06]Brett: [00:37:06] I suppose that works, [00:37:09] Tyler: [00:37:09] and I know it doesn’t get the open rates, but I can’t bring myself to do HTML email templates. I just, I don’t have the, the skills to do that correctly. [00:37:18] Brett: [00:37:18] have to go all the way back to doing like table based layouts. It’s horrifying. [00:37:22] Tyler: [00:37:22] the attributes. Yes, it’s awful. [00:37:24] Brett: [00:37:24] Yeah. Inline attributes and table based layouts. It’s it’s ugly. Real ugly. Um, yeah. I, I would consider, I guess most email clients make plain text emails look pretty enough that it wouldn’t be like sending monospace Moto Monotype fonts to people. Um, all right, so Cindy, cindy.co. [00:37:48] Tyler: [00:37:48] Yeah, [00:37:49] Brett: [00:37:49] All right. Number three. [00:37:52]Tyler: [00:37:52] number three is not something you really pay for, but I do hope you go support them. I’m living here in Nashville, which I guess is [00:38:00] music city. Uh, live music is a huge, huge thing. And my wife and I used to go to concerts all the time before covert arrived. And then now it’s shut down. Uh, my favorite live band to see here, they’re located in Nashville, but they used to tour nationally is the wood brothers. [00:38:16] Uh, they’ve been around for, I guess, 15 years now. And they’re kind of this rootsy Americana with a little bit of blues and the performances live are just outstanding. And, but what really gets me is the song writing hits me harder than really any other artists I’ve ever listened to. There’s a couple songs where Oliver, one of the brothers. [00:38:37] Writes about his own kids. And it just echoes perfectly what I felt in my life and gone through that. There’s these two or three songs that will really make me tear up and cry if I don’t catch myself and with live music being gone in Nashville, I know all these musicians are really hurting. So look up the wood brothers stream on Spotify, Apple music, [00:39:00] buy an album. [00:39:00] If you’re that way, just give them a try. They’re wonderful. [00:39:04]Brett: [00:39:04] Um, do you have a favorite song? I should list. [00:39:07]Tyler: [00:39:07] Uh, the, the two that affect me the most are, um, there’s one called the muse, what she talks about, um, his wife and then the trouble they had in their marriage. And then leading up to the first birth, the birth of his first kid. And there’s another one called two places which talks about the yearning you feel for. [00:39:31] Being with your family, but also having to give up, you know, you’re your own individual freedom to make that work and balancing that act, those two sides of yourself, but then for just a good time fun song to listen, to dance, to, um, there’s one called shoofly pie, which is just, you know, a heck of a good timeline, I guess [00:39:51] Brett: [00:39:51] Alright, um, living in Nashville as you do, do you have a favorite genre of music? [00:39:57]Tyler: [00:39:57] Uh, ironically anything except [00:40:00] country, which is weird because, you know, American, I kind of falls into country. Wouldn’t bluegrass and bluegrass is great too, but no top [00:40:08] Brett: [00:40:08] I know I no longer directly, so like Nashville has become such a center of good music that I no longer associated just with country. [00:40:18]Tyler: [00:40:18] Yeah. I mean it, I mean, Every, every artist makes Nashville their second home, whether they’re based in LA or New York, they all have either live here or they have property here and they come and visit here and record here. So it’s way beyond just that country music pigeon that it was years and years ago. [00:40:34]Brett: [00:40:34] um, where’s the grand old Opry. Is that Nashville? [00:40:39] Tyler: [00:40:39] Yeah, it is. Yeah. [00:40:40] Brett: [00:40:40] Yeah. I went there as a kid. I went there with my, my grandma and. The one thing we always shared was a, was a love of Johnny Cash. I was like the only music that my mom, my grandma and me always agreed on. Um, very, very little else in common, but we went to a grand old Opry and, uh, [00:41:00] there’s like a hotel there. [00:41:01] We stayed at, it was fun. It was fun, [00:41:03] Tyler: [00:41:03] yeah, the opera hotel. Yeah. [00:41:05] Brett: [00:41:05] yeah, that was my last real impression of Nashville until I was. In my twenties and it had become a very different city in that a 20 year span. [00:41:17]Tyler: [00:41:17] the opera was nearly destroyed in 2010 when we had the floods, um, like the whole, the hotel of opera, all of it was, you know, not literally underwater, but flooded and they had to redo and rebuild. It’s like so much of the city did, but it’s back. [00:41:33]Brett: [00:41:33] Well, cool. All right. We have a couple extra minutes. Uh, do, do you want to highlight any of your other work? Anything you want to talk about? [00:41:43]Tyler: [00:41:43] That’s a good question. Um, I would just say, I ha I had this tweet maybe early January or something snarky, like. Uh, if I die, everybody’s going to find all these unfinished get repos of code I’ve written just for myself. And [00:42:00] that kind of lit a spark under being, I thought, well, why, why not make it available? [00:42:04] And so that’s kind of in the theme of my blog website, whatever you want to call it this year, which is I’m trying to do something at least once a week and put something out there that people can play with her try. And so I would just say, go there and. Take advantage of, or try or throw shade at me for the stuff I’m writing, the little apps and utilities I’m building. [00:42:24] I love feedback. I love just sharing what works for me and hopefully works for other people or what I’m building [00:42:30] Brett: [00:42:30] And where would people find that? [00:42:32] Tyler: [00:42:32] tyler.io. [00:42:34]Brett: [00:42:34] All right. Um, I did want to ask you, you had an app, I think back in 2010 called Minyon. Is that still function? [00:42:43]Tyler: [00:42:43] It was from 2014 and it came an idea from a good friend of mine who writes Mac apps in the video editing space. And he’s like, we need an app that does this. And it was one of those acts that, like I said, I didn’t have a use for, but I [00:43:00] thought it was a brilliant idea. So I built it and I wasn’t very good. [00:43:03] No, I ended up selling it to another developer a few years later, who I think is out of business now. So I think it’s gone. [00:43:10]Brett: [00:43:10] um, I that’s too bad because reading about it, it does something that I I’ve needed many times. And I’ve used a basic like file system Watchers to try to, to replicate, but to have a graphic interface that did exactly that. Um, I can understand why it might not have been commercially successful, but. [00:43:30]Tyler: [00:43:30] Describing that idea to potential customers. I was way beyond my meager marketing skills. Like I couldn’t communicate. The use cases well enough on the website for it to do well. [00:43:40]Brett: [00:43:40] Basically any. So if for any anyone listening, what it does is it uses a bunch of different methods to basically anytime you have a long running task, a rendering, a video, or. Uh, building, uh, a huge static site or anything. That’s going to take more than a couple of [00:44:00] minutes and you want to walk away from a, it had ways of monitoring, uh, different aspects of that. [00:44:07] So it would know when it was complete and then could notify you away from your computer, [00:44:11]Tyler: [00:44:11] Yeah. What you said about the long video renders. That was exactly my friend’s use case. That’s what it was initially built to solve [00:44:19]Brett: [00:44:19] Yeah. Or even just long uploads. I wonder if. Anyway. Yeah, no, they’re definitely times. [00:44:26]Tyler: [00:44:26] You had an option to watch the color of a pixel on screen. So like, if you start an upload, you put your mouse over like the progress bar. And when it goes from like blue to gray and it’s done, it’ll notify you. [00:44:40]Brett: [00:44:40] And that’s brilliant. Cause every time, every time that I’ve needed something like that, it’s been a different criteria that I would watch for. It’s never just like always watch this file and let me know when it’s done. Like it’s never the same thing twice. Anyway. Brilliant idea. Sorry to [00:45:00] hear it doesn’t exist anymore, but all right. [00:45:03] Well tell people where all they can find you a Twitter websites. Give, give us a rundown. [00:45:10] Tyler: [00:45:10] yeah. On Twitter. It’s just my name, Tyler Hall, uh, LinkedIn and get hub the same username. And then. My company website with my commercial apps is click on tyler.com. And of course my little blog@tyler.io. [00:45:25]Brett: [00:45:25] All right, I’ve got it. I’ve got it all in the show notes. So people can find you in all of these, uh, all of these apps that you do publish and, uh, hopefully. Hopefully it’ll pique, people’s interest in all of this stuff that you, uh, you may be mentioned on your blog, but never turn into commercial applications. [00:45:44] I think there’s a, there’s a lot that you do that could help a lot of people. Alright, well, thank you for, uh, for your time today. [00:45:50] Tyler: [00:45:50] yeah, thanks. I enjoyed it. [00:45:52] Soundtrack: [00:45:52] Hey, thanks for tuning into systematic. Check out more episodes@systematicpod.com and subscribe on Apple podcasts, [00:46:00] Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find me as TD scuff on all social platforms and follow systematic is. S Y S T M C a S T on Twitter. Thanks for listening.

This week’s guest is Jared Rodriguez. He’s an assistant professor at the University of Alabama, teaching in the department of gender and race studies. He joins Brett to discuss distance learning, racism, and some lighter-hearted top picks. Show Links Jared Rodríguez Unicorn Riot Top 3 Picks Schitt’s Creek Binti The Brother from Another Planet Invisible man audiobook Merlin Mann – Cranking Join the Community Join us on Discord for community discussions and interactions with guests! Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at systematicpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting app. Find Brett as @ttscoff on all social media platforms, and follow Systematic at @systmcast on Twitter. Transcript Soundtrack + 2–1 [00:00:10] Brett: [00:00:10] This week’s guest is Jared Rodriguez. He’s a return guests that I’ve been looking forward to talking to, currently an assistant professor at the university of Alabama teaching in the department of gender and race studies. How’s it going, Jared? [00:00:23]Jared: [00:00:23] I don’t even know how to answer that question, given the dumpster fire, that we’re all, warming currently warming ourselves by, but, I’m healthy. my kids are healthy and, and currently enrolled in a distance learning through the, Chicago public school system. So, yeah, I’d consider that a pretty well, all things considered. [00:00:48] Brett: [00:00:48] So you have kids doing distant learning. Doesn’t learning. I assume you’re also teaching [00:00:54] Jared: [00:00:54] I am. I am, yeah, I’m teaching a graduate seminar right now. it is [00:01:00] a very strange, experience, to watch my kids be much more effectively educated than I feel like I am doing with my students. So I’m definitely stealing things from their pre-kindergarten educators. [00:01:16]Brett: [00:01:16] Yeah. Yeah. how do you feel the, the country in general did with the sudden switch to everyone doing distance learning? [00:01:27] Jared: [00:01:27] It’s a hard question to answer because the lack of, of a, a reference point or point of comparison, means that, it’s a, it’s like parenting for me . in the rear view mirror, I can, get some sense of, okay. Maybe I could’ve done that better or maybe I really did overachieve in that instance. [00:01:51] but I think that, overwhelmingly, I think that if. Pretty poor job was [00:02:00] done in regards to administration sort of foot dragging around making decisions. Yeah. And a sort of, exceedingly. Amazingly in comprehensively, good job was done by, by most teachers and families and trying to, really pull together to try to make the best of a really, really, really difficult situation. [00:02:26] So, we’ll see, it’s like, our, our, our experiment is still ongoing. but I would say that it was a pretty Herculean effort, I think, on behalf of most families and teachers. And, I think if, if anything, if, if what we’ve struggled through as a guide, we could see the utility in, in. [00:02:51] Making difficult decisions, sooner and, in regards to thinking [00:03:00] about, whether next semester might be online, and then being able to offer everyone more time and more or resources to prepare, because that’s ultimately, what has proven to be a decisive factor in, and people’s success, but yeah. [00:03:16] Brett: [00:03:16] I feel like this game of, of telling everyone, yeah, we’re going to get back to in person classes and then canceling it the week of, or even a week into it and not being prepared for. The alternative, it seems detrimental to study. Like I understand that distance learning probably it has a lot of issues in comparison to in-person learning, but if you, if you don’t give it fair chance with appropriate preparation, of course, it’s going to be worse. [00:03:49]Jared: [00:03:49] Yeah. The strange thing for me is, is that. I don’t even know if we can actually compare them, given the experience that we have. [00:04:00] I guess for me, I wouldn’t. say that what I’m doing now or what I, what most people are experiencing now is actually a, anything approximating sort of even, 50% of best practices when it comes to online or distance education. [00:04:17] Right. so I don’t even know if we, the sheer volume. Of, folks doing distance or online education. I think that really makes some of the previous studies or data that we have on it. I dunno, it, it, it, it makes me question how applicable it is, given that, it’s, it’s such a smaller sample size it’s, many of the, the, criteria that sort of, that, were, were used to analyze the efficacy of, distance learning programs or online learning programs. [00:04:55] They’re just fundamentally different. just because of the scale. [00:05:00] so I, I think the jury’s still out, and I think that, that it’s a reminder that, that, these are not normal times. This is not normal distance learning. and, and I think we do well too to, to, to remember that. [00:05:20] I, I, what came to mind immediately was that, was, just in time delivery. Right. if just in time delivery is, it’s a sort of means of optimizing using supply chains, right. To sort of, to lower, supposedly right. lower the costs to, of goods to the consumer in the end. [00:05:43] Right. Because, retailers, right. They pay less for transportation, less for storage, yada, yada, yada, if that doesn’t work. Hasn’t really proven to be, a particularly resilient means of organizing, manufacturing and distribution. It for [00:06:00] damn sure is not going to be a particularly effective way of approaching education. [00:06:07] Brett: [00:06:07] Sure. [00:06:08] Jared: [00:06:08] Right. And that’s what we had. Right. We had an attempt right. To pull off just in time delivery, three, four, for a massive shift to online education, the, the biggest shift in public education. And, I, I can’t even, maybe since, the broadening of, the desegregation, right, for instance of American public education, I would. [00:06:42] be open to argument, but, but I think the scale of what we are currently undergoing is, is really hard for us to wrap our heads around. And I think that, that, that is one of the, the, the biggest concerns is that in the [00:07:00] interest of, of, Not freaking people out. Right. And maintaining some semblance of, of normalcy, right. [00:07:09] That we downplayed just how massive. a shift. This is from not only what we’re used to, but the conditions that were that we, that we’ve all learned to educate under and, and be educated under. Right. the, I think that, there is a, a lot of legitimate concern about students, being able to transition right to online education. [00:07:42] And that those are very, very, very, very serious. and, but we also have to think, as part and parcel to that, that the overwhelming majority of, of educators, right. Whether they be, primary, secondary sort of, college, right. have not. [00:08:00] received any training, almost no training in, to, to, how to effectively teach in this way. [00:08:10] and so, yeah, it’s, it’s been a struggle and, and that’s part of why I, I, I really do think that that. The fact that it has been as successful as it has been, is a Testament to just how committed right. families and teachers are to trying to make it work and really, really difficult circumstances. [00:08:37]Brett: [00:08:37] Do you think it has affected, different, across the racial divide? there obviously there’s, disparity in schools and education in general, did, did distance learning make that worse? [00:08:56]Jared: [00:08:56] I think that, first we need to, [00:09:00] take a step back. Right. the, the. Thinking about the way that, the shift to distance learning, has affected the racial divides and, and, and the availability of quality public education in the United States is much like, worrying about sort of a new leak that’s sprung in, in the roof of a house that’s already been condemned. [00:09:35] Right. and I use that metaphor to, to, just, to, to, to offer you a, the picture was pretty bleak, before the G the shift to distance learning. Right. and they’re there, the shift to learning is I think another opportunity for us to look at just [00:10:00] how. Pervasive and deep that the racial inequality runs right. [00:10:05] In, in, in this country in general and sort of as it’s expressed and, access to quality public education. But I think that, one of the difficult things and looking at how people were, engaging with the, the, the question of, should we shift to distance or should we maintain sort of in person schooling? [00:10:28] in, in some part, right. Hinged on the question of, well, right. With students who don’t have, who, who are, amongst, sort of, racially oppressed sort of groups in this country who are not, who don’t have equity right. Or so equitable access to, whether it be sort of a, as families, right. [00:10:55] So, so economic opportunities, right. Healthcare, right. You can go down the, the, the list [00:11:00] that schools actually provide. Right. they provide health services, right? Food. They provide sort of a, in very, very significant ways. one of the last bastions of, the, the, the continually shredding social safety net in this country have been public schools. [00:11:22] Right. so that the idea of, suggesting that we take that away from students who really need it right. Who are going to struggle at home, right. Families, we’re going to struggle to feed their children, right. Or the kinds of, us, Developmental, therapeutic services, right? [00:11:44] Whether they be in the form of, IEP or individual education plans that students with disabilities have, or students who, who receive counseling in school. Right. It’s a, it’s almost a no brainer, [00:12:00] right? If the alternative is. Put kids in a situation where they’re not going to eat, not going to get health care, not going to get the kinds of therapeutic services that they need. [00:12:08] Right. right. Or put them in that, but that, as a, it’s a false dichotomy, right. In a certain sense in that, what we’re doing here is we’re being forced to suggest that sort of the sacrifice of the health and wellbeing of communities, which include teachers. Right. Which includes sort of the, the elderly, family members of students, right. [00:12:34] A, a broader. Community that’s sort of that come together, make a school, a neighborhood school, right. that we shouldn’t sort of calculate the public health risk in that, from that end and that we shouldn’t be thinking about, okay, maybe. a public school is not the best place to offer, non comprehensive and sort of [00:13:00] piecemeal healthcare services. [00:13:02] Maybe, it would think these kinds of things would not be as big of an issue if we had, for instance, right. universal healthcare in this country, right. If we had sort of a guaranteed, livable minimwage, Right. If we had the, the kinds of, universally available, guarantees for sort of a minimstandard of living, right. [00:13:27] That almost every other country in the quote unquote, developed world, has. Right. And so, I think that the question of, of, virtual schooling or in-person schooling, really, makes broader social questions, broader political questions, broader economic questions, and the kinds of inequalities that exist in this country. [00:13:50] Right. It, it sharpens them to the point, where they’re completely unavoidable. Right. And, and I’m not here to [00:14:00] say that, That we should not think about, right. students who are going to be hungry. Right. and sort of, lead them to their own devices. Right. For instance, here in Chicago, one of the amazing things they did this summer, right. [00:14:16] They couldn’t have summer school, but what, what many of the schools did was that they organized a lunch distribution, right. In ways that sort of families could come pick up food. Right. there are many ways that sort of the, the, that, while suboptimal, of course, that, that schools still can continue to provide some of those services and resources that they did provide, without having to necessarily subject right. [00:14:44] The, the, our communities, right. Our school communities, our public school communities. So the kinds of risks, right. that. They are, disproportionally, ill-equipped, it’s the access to resources to, to [00:15:00] really deal with. [00:15:01] Brett: [00:15:01] So you’re saying that threatening to remove funding from schools that didn’t reopen on your schedule might be detrimental to abroad who would’ve thought. [00:15:12]Jared: [00:15:12] Yeah, it’s bad for public health. [00:15:15] Brett: [00:15:15] yeah. [00:15:17] Jared: [00:15:17] I mean, the, ultimately the, the, the, in my opinion, the responsible thing to do would be to actually increase. Right. funding right there. If there, if there were monies, right. Which, which, the, the. sort of the, the department of education allocated, right? [00:15:36] pandemic response funds, for instance, to schools who would commit to reopening, right. There was a commitment of an increase in funding, right? So there was, there were resources available. Well, what if those resources were still given to schools who desperately needed them even before the pandemic? [00:15:57] And actually help facilitate right. [00:16:00] Schools being a central locus, right. Of, the community, care in regards to public. Right. And, and, a lot of the, I’m not, it couldn’t completely mitigate this, but sort of maintaining the sense of community. Right. Men gain maintaining a sense of sort of regularity in regards to, to, to, to relationships that are being built between students and teachers and administrators. [00:16:27] Right. that there, right. there have been there’s, Proof right in, family and teacher, and then some cases in administration led initiatives, right. To have schools continue to be some kind of resource, right. Even in the absence of in-person schooling that I think are instructive, right. [00:16:50] About how we might think about a post pandemic, right. engagement with, with how public schools work in our [00:17:00] communities. [00:17:00] Brett: [00:17:00] Yeah. So you’re teaching a master’s doctoral seminar on data algorithms and blackness. [00:17:09] Jared: [00:17:09] I am. Yeah. I don’t know. Well, one of the beautiful things about, About being a professor, is that, you get to be a little selfish. Ah, not always, but sometimes. and I got the opportunity to create, a seminar on a topic of my own choosing and, and I for very, very, very long time, I’m a nerd. [00:17:36] which I’m sure will come as no surprise to you, but I’m a big nerd. And, and I, what I, for me, one of the things that drives me towards research projects is my general sort of, Struggle with being [00:18:00] articulate, right. leads me to try to develop and refine ways to more effectively communicate and more effectively communicate things that I see, right. [00:18:09] Either political dynamics or, structures, happening around me that we don’t necessarily have the resources or the, the, the tools to effectively talk about and, or communicate about. Right. And so, one of those things that sort of married, right? My, my general sort of, lifelong project of trying to be better at talking to people and also sharing with them, things that I see that I think are important, is this class right? [00:18:43] Is this class, which is really trying to grapple with, The way that, what, in the field of critical algorithmic studies is called the algorithmic turn or the turn, sort of the, the big data [00:19:00] fication of social science research. Right. And, I, I don’t think it’ll come as a surprise to you that, You know that, or maybe it will, I don’t know, or the listeners, right. [00:19:13] That many of the same dynamics right around how people think about data and algorithms. Right. And sort of the general public are actually how they’re thought about in academia, right? The presumption, right. That we have that, data and algorithms are in some way, A more neutral or objective form a tool for analysis or assessment. [00:19:36] Right. and, then thinking about what the knock on effects of that, are for instance, some of the things that we’re talking about in our class there, what does it mean? Right. When a, an algorithm is, assessing whether or not someone is a fit for parole. Right. And that analysis includes a [00:20:00] lot of, a lot of factors, some of which are clear to sort of the prisons or, or, or courts using, right. [00:20:08] The algorithms to assess whether or not someone is a, is a good candidate for parole. And some of which are not right because the algorithms are, intellectual property and thus, sort of the, the, there’s a layer of obfuscation that exists between what the variables are. [00:20:26] Right, that are being assessed in sort of the decision being rendered. Right. or any other number? Mmm, Mmm, Mmm. Mmm. You know that data and algorithms right, are used in our broader society, in ways that are really deeply entangled with historic and contemporary forms of, of racial right or gender, inequality. [00:20:56] Right. I’ll get one, one thing that really blew my mind [00:21:00] from one of my students, a project that they came up with, was, the way that, public transportation, right? Sort of, for example, bus routes, right? Sort of the optimization of bus routes to shift resources, right. to a rush hour, right. [00:21:22] Actually can deepen, inequality in the labor market, right? So folks who are underemployed. Right or who, have, regularly, changing sort of job shifts, right in retail, right. Starbucks or any other number of sort of service industry jobs where sort of, just in time employment schedules, right? [00:21:47] Are employed right. That, the optimization of, of, of have a bus route to shift resources, towards rush hour and away from, [00:22:00] not, heavy traffic times actually. Makes it more difficult, right. For underemployed or, or, folks or folks who are, don’t have regular schedules to be able to make it to work on time. Right. And if we look at sort of it from a, quote unquote, as a, as merely sort of a neutral shifting of resources to optimize, right. where they’re being allocated, we, we wouldn’t see that. Right. So that’s one example, right? And, there are a whole host of different, of different examples of that that allow us to see right. [00:22:43] The utility of what some folks are, are calling or developing as sort of algorithmic justice, which is to say, When data and algorithms are used in public land, right by municipal authorities or any other sort of, authorities that are, that are, sort of [00:23:00] charged with their, mandate by, by, by, by the public or sort of utilize, sort of, taxpayer funds or public funds, right. [00:23:11] That. the communities that are going to be effected by the decisions in which these algorithms are being used, that they should be engaged and involved in those processes of deciding how the algorithms are going to be used right. Involved in, in, in deciding whether or not an algorithm should be used in the first place. [00:23:32] Right. so for instance, right in, in, in this, in the bus route example, right? That there be a community, that there’ll be community representatives involved, right. Who have a sense of how. Right. what the effect of this, this, supposedly neutral optimization of taxpayer money is, is, is actually going to do right. [00:23:55] Or in the instance of, when algorithms are being used in, in [00:24:00] sentencing or in parole. Right. questions that, that folks involved and engaged in, in that community. Right. Not merely from the prosecutor side. Right. but form the formerly incarcerated. Right. That they be involved in those, in, in shaping how the tools are used. [00:24:21] Right. Because, we can see that if we just assume a neutral sort of valence, right. To the, to, to data and algorithms, right. That, we do. So, at our own peril, if we are concerned or worried about right. The deepening of, structural inequalities, [00:24:43] Brett: [00:24:43] So if there’s a, a lack of equality and the way that algorithms are implemented. Do you think there’s malice in some cases, whether it’s sentencing or bus schedules, do you think that there’s an intentional, [00:25:00] you said the algorithm to benefit one class of people over another. [00:25:07]Jared: [00:25:07] I, not necessarily, but this is one of those, examples right. Of how, I, I don’t think so. but. I would say that because the absence right. Of sort of an intentional or our ability to see any kind of intentional malice on the part, right. Of folks who are, who purport to merely be wanting to sort of, minimize inefficiency, right. [00:25:36] In regards to sort of the spending of taxpayer money. Right. It’s a fairly laudable goal. Let’s not waste money. Right. cause there are other places where we need it, but, but. one can see that, that the, that malice or sort of an intent, right. To deepen systematic inequality is actually not necessary. [00:25:56]Right. In this instance, you [00:26:00] could just really care about not wasting money. Right. and it’s a question of, well, Who who is the public, who are that we are serving in regards to public transportation. And if we have to triage, who were we going to prioritize? Right. And that comes from a sort of a. [00:26:22] it comes from a scarcity model or a presumption that, that, that, the William James has a beautiful quote sort of, I’m never confused the field of your vision for the limits of the world. Right. that when it comes to funding for public transportation, right. Who’s to say that, that this budget is the, the appropriate budget, right. [00:26:51] Or that this is the place that we need to be quote unquote, cutting the fat or that, The sacrifice [00:27:00] of, the, the capacity of, of, underemployed folks or folks who, who, have less control or say about their job schedules are less important in regards to, serving as a, as a public, right. [00:27:16] Then folks who, take the train on a regular schedule, during rush hour. So, so not necessary. And that’s part of the. Reason that I teach this, then I’m teaching this course in the first place, right? Is that, a common sense understanding of a way to fight oppression or way to fight racism or sexism, right. [00:27:41] As you find the people wearing the tee shirts, you find the people wearing the Maga hats, right. and part of what. The contribution that I’m trying to make with, an understanding of, using data and algorithms and the way that their, their, their purported, [00:28:00] neutrality, right. [00:28:01] The neutrality that they grant, right. The, the, the operations or sort of ends that they’re put to. Right. Okay. one, one thing that emerges right from looking at that is. the powerful tool of, of, of being able to see right, that you don’t have to be wearing a Maga hat. You don’t have to be wearing the tee shirt, right. [00:28:25] In order to be someone who is committed to or something that is committed to, deepening structures of inequality. And, and, and in fact, it’s a Testament to how. how successful, political movements against racism against sexism, right? against oppression in general have been right. [00:28:49] That, that is, our current president sort of not withstanding right. That, that, that w in general, Right. [00:29:00] Sort of racism, sexism, homophobia are far less publicly, culturally, socially sanctioned. Right. but we, we also can see that, we, directly correlate sort of an absence of the tee shirts or the hats, being worn, around right. [00:29:21] We correlate that with sort of a, a sort of, yeah, an absolute reduction in systematic inequality, right. Or racism or sexism at our own peril. Right. And that we actually need to develop ways of understanding, right? The, the, how, inequality persists in the absence of those, formerly much more easily understood, costumes that it’s worn. [00:29:43] Brett: [00:29:43] Yeah. So speaking of racism, [00:29:47] Jared: [00:29:47] Yes. Does that make sense for it? Like the trial, your tracking code? [00:29:52] Brett: [00:29:52] I am. the, I w we’re almost to that part where I switched to talking about the top three picks, but I [00:30:00] really want to hear what you can tell me about, the protests and, and what’s happening. I know that, in Portland, there are like full fledged protest still going on. [00:30:14] Even in my small town here in Minnesota, we have weekly black lives matters protests happening. like this is still going and it feels like the most momentI in my lifetime have ever seen for, for the, movement to address racism, especially in the areas of policing. I I’d be curious to hear, anything you can tell me about what’s happening now. [00:30:40]Jared: [00:30:40] Oh man, that’s a, well, I would agree that in my lifetime, this is the, the, the, and, and I think that, that something that can’t be lost in the shuffle that, that, that perhaps sometimes it’s taken for [00:31:00] granted that this is the most widely. Popular movement, against racism in the history of the United States. [00:31:12] That that is, that is that this is a watershed moment, right? in spite of. You know what we might be seeing in the mainstream media, right. Or what coverage, right. That we’re being offered, that this is, this is by far the most popular movement against racism in the history of this country and that, that is in and of itself. [00:31:36] Right. Something that’s important to acknowledge now the popularity of something, right. As, as we all well know. Right. Sort of like we can look at, universal healthcare or any number of other, Widely held sort of a, sort of, political [00:32:00] aspirations. [00:32:00] Right. And, and understand that sort of the popularity of something is not directly correlated to how likely it is to, to be able to, turn that corner and, and really turn into, to broader institutional change. Right. so yeah, I think that that is, is. An important dynamic to understand, right. That we might all, sort of, I think in general, right? [00:32:30] Even folks who might be lifelong Republicans, right. acknowledge that there is a problem, right? What, what they think the solution is right. Might differ. Right. but the very acknowledgement that there is a problem means that we are in fundamentally uncharted waters. Right. And so I don’t know if I can offer anything, in regards to where we might be going. [00:32:55] Okay. What I can offer some historical context, right. [00:33:00] in that. A there have, just regardless of how popular something is, right. It actually needs to, to be channeled into, a movement for institutional change that can hold, politicians and legislators accountable. Right. and I think you do see that in, in, in local areas, right. [00:33:26] In regards to, changes in, Municipal ordinances around sort of policing, right. And, and local city councils sort of, changing funding structures. Right. and the, the possibility of that being generalized, I think is a, is an open one, right. It really, really is. in large part due to. [00:33:52] due to the pandemic, due to the insanity of, the, the, the election at the [00:34:00] moment. and, but what I, what I, what I do want to get across is that there are, the protests have not stopped, right? They have not stopped. Like folks are organizing. Folks are meeting folks are pushing across the country. [00:34:17] Right. And that, In part that is a reflection right. Of the black lives matter movement acknowledging. Right. the, the historical reality that, a question of conscience must be, turned into an, on the ground movement, right. Pushing on those institutional levers to bring about change. [00:34:43] Right. And, and I think that folks. that need to. begin to live that reality in ways that sort of, and across sort of, the swath of folks who may disagree with how policing has been done in this [00:35:00] country, need to begin to live that reality. [00:35:02] And in ways that they may not have thought, they could or were necessary, because they’re going to be right. They’re going to be in, regardless of who gets elected in the fall. Right. I think that an immense amount of pressure is going to need to be brought. To bear, right. In order to get the kinds of institutional change that I think are widely supported. [00:35:27] Brett: [00:35:27] Yeah. [00:35:28] Jared: [00:35:28] If that makes sense. [00:35:30] Brett: [00:35:30] Yes, I’ll wait. I’ll wait, is eyeopening talking to you because I can get, I can get the perspective of, for me, like in person perspective, comes from people living in the same small town. I do. And then my perspective from the larger community comes through a avenues like unicorn riot and, online reporting that would bother to still cover the product beyond, [00:36:00] shootings and things like that. [00:36:02] So, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s good to hear that, that you see it as something that’s still, still strong, still moving forward. [00:36:12] Jared: [00:36:12] Well, it’s, it’s interesting because it’s, it’s in some places, right. Things have ABD and in some places, things have gone up, sort of, have moved, forward, but forward in different directions. Right. some folks have moved into, to electoral realism. Right to get sort of black lives matters, activists elected, right. [00:36:36] to positions and other places disagree with that strategy. Right? The, the, the. the point that I’m making about sort of the, the, the, the real, the really profound popularity of, of this movement is not to say that sort of racism, doesn’t still exist at the same time, but it is to, to, to [00:37:00] give us a sense of what is, what is at the heart, of an incredibly heterogeneous political movement. [00:37:11] Right with some folks, pushing more into the electoral realm and other fault folks. Right. Keeping folks out on the street. Right. And, and, and keeping, quote unquote grassroots movement pressures, on, and in other places organizing, food drives, right. And other places, Oregon, that, that. [00:37:33] There is a, a wide and varied set of actions that folks in the black lives matter movement are engaged in. Right. That, that do not look like the kinds of things that are widely reported on in the news media and that impart right. Is, unfortunate that, that, that might not be the, the wider understanding, but it is [00:38:00] fortunate in the sense that it is that heterogeneity is it, is that diffusion, right. [00:38:05] And that ability of, of of the movement. To be able to draw in folks who, who, may not necessarily agree on what the exact, single thing we should be doing is, nationally right. And take their interest in wanting to change things and channel that right. In a way that makes sense locally. [00:38:27] But as a part of sort of continuing sort of a, the, a broader struggle that, that, that is, that, that is something that I think cannot be lost on us. Right. because it, it is something that is, it is not common in American history, and an indication of, of, of something, of something special. [00:38:48] Right. And that, that in these super, super, super darkest timeline times, that we might look to as, as an opportunity, but an [00:39:00] opportunity that we ourselves have to, all be engaged in pushing forward wherever we are in whatever way we can. Right. regardless of who gets elected in the fall, like, and I, I say that again because I, I think it bears a saying in that, one of the, the. [00:39:22] The things that sort of the present contemporary, the contemporary sort of political moment, right? One of the lessons that I feel like, that a lot of folks are drawing, right, is one of, just, maybe, S somewhat more blinkered approach, to, to. the possibility is of merely, a change that’s gonna, that’s gonna happen at the polls in this fall. [00:39:51] You pull at the polls, right. in November rather. And what I want to suggest is that, that the, [00:40:00] that that would be a disservice to the momentand the possibility studies that are really, really exist. Right. for broader and more fundamental changes, right now that are embodied in the black lives matter, protest movement. [00:40:12] Right. Which, which went from beginning a couple of years ago. Right. being started with sort of concerns that were beyond, but really what sort of we’re about sort of a few individual police murders, right. And how they reflected systematic inequalities that now, right. That, that has deepened. [00:40:34] that, that, that those concerns have deepened in such a way that allow us to, to, to make generalizations about, really, Popular right. Analyses of, the kinds of changes that are needed in American society writ large. And that, that, those seemingly narrow concerns, right? [00:40:55] Those, quote unquote special interest group politics, right. As [00:41:00] folks might call them, right. Have really, really, really generalized and, and, and swept up. Right. A lot of the broader concerns, right. Of people outside of that special interest group in a way that, That make things possible, beyond November that otherwise would not be in. [00:41:18] I, I, I look forward to that. [00:41:21] Brett: [00:41:21] What kind of stuff is happening down ballot that, that is a direct result of the, the movement. [00:41:28] Jared: [00:41:28] But, local city council members. Right. You have, I think the first, BLM, or sort of, w one of the central movement folks in Ferguson, getting elected, to Congress, right. but I think ultimately, the down-ballot stuff is, is, You know is more so largely reflective of. [00:42:00] [00:42:00] The the, an openness to pressure of folks, right. that otherwise previously sort of, would not be there, right. That th that constituencies are exerting, because of the, the, because of the, the, the palpable dissatisfaction from, from sort of status quo politics, right. That, that, that, that the down-ballot sort of, possibilities are not necessarily. [00:42:27] Immediately in the form of, of movement folks. Right. taking up sort of a, electoral sort of candidacies, but more so right. Movement folks, shifting the agenda. Of those, those people, but they’re ha there have been sort of a few, like, really serious, I would argue sort of, electoral sort of, wins, right. [00:42:52] that have been swayed in large part by, by movement folks, particularly, at, [00:43:00] in places where, conservatism was thought to, to, to, to run the day. But I, I, I, I, I think that we’ve got, we’ve got our hands full, want a temper sort of like, I am optimistic about the possibilities, but I am also, very sober about sort of the, the, the, the kicking and screaming that will be done in order for us to get where we want to get. [00:43:30] Brett: [00:43:30] Yeah. If only there was as much funding available for the black lives matter movement, as you would find for like the tea party movement, if we could get it AstroTurf, we’d be set. [00:43:42] Jared: [00:43:42] Yeah, I know why isn’t there like a, a radical MyPillow guy would, that would be, given the, I guess, I was going to make a joke about sort of gluten sensitivity, but it’s, it’s, it’s a, buckwheat [00:44:00] and pillows, but, it’s gone mainstream. So, but yeah, so I was gonna ask you, about atomy and I don’t even know if, if, You can talk about any of it, but, what the latest on, on, the beta for the app is friendly. [00:44:24] MBA ultra, [00:44:26] Brett: [00:44:26] No. One’s asked me that for almost, like three hours now. So [00:44:32] Jared: [00:44:32] well, we’re the, we are a thirsty bunch, as they say. [00:44:35] Brett: [00:44:35] Well, this, this episode is going to come out a couple of weeks from the day we’re recording it unless I managed to shuffle it sooner, it could come up. We’ll see. Anyway. Yeah. As of today, which is so timber 21st it’s it’s basically ready to go to go. the baby, I’m still accepting if people email me directly, I let them on because we’ve [00:45:00] run into delays. [00:45:01] in our personal lives, to have us both on deck for a launch and have everything sorted out a Fletcher’s got a lot going on in its life. In addition to being an ER doctor [00:45:13] Jared: [00:45:13] Oh, yeah. [00:45:14]Brett: [00:45:14] Mmm. And as soon as we get our, our personal lives in order to the, to the extent where we feel like we can handle the launch week, we will be launching, but I can’t put an ETA on that yet because it’s a lot of things that are out of my control. [00:45:31] Jared: [00:45:31] Yeah. Yeah. It’s a, I think it’s a feeling maybe that’s going around a lot these days. [00:45:37]Brett: [00:45:37] I am as anxious to get it out, if not more [00:45:40] Jared: [00:45:40] Oh, I’m sure. I’m sure. [00:45:42] Brett: [00:45:42] anyone out there listening, it, it hurts me to keep saying it’s almost there. It’s almost there. It’s, it’s it’s as frustrating to me as it is to you. [00:45:53] Jared: [00:45:53] Yeah. I mean, I will let you know that sort of in the interim, you have not been sherlocked. So it’s one of the, [00:46:00] one of the beautiful things about, the, the, the. It just seems like, the prevalence of sort of, text editing apps has not necessarily, flatten the curve and sort of the difficulty of solving or, and, or sort of addressing a lot of the problems, as evidenced by, most of us salivating over a, a, an elegant and sort of conceptually sophisticated though, pretty simple, App in regards to putting letters, letters in order and, and organizing them. [00:46:41] Brett: [00:46:41] those of us who just want to want everything to be plain text, but one an elegant, easy way to do that. Yeah, I get it. [00:46:49] Jared: [00:46:49] That’s my, I have, just the constant push and pull with, being an academic it’s, we do a lot of, [00:47:00] PDFs, right. It’s text, right? it’s annotations for me anyway, it’s sort of like, And, and it’s a, it’s still a nightmare. It’s still, yeah, well, nightmare. [00:47:15] I have, I still have not yet found, the, the, eh, a PDF annotation app that is, Simple enough, simple in regard. So being able to allow me to use, plain text, right. What I need is I need envy ultra base to, whatever the, that, that web kit. A PDF viewer that they’ve made open sources, something super simple, which, I may have to set up a GoFund me to, to, to try to get you, convinced to, take that on as the next project. [00:47:55] I don’t know how, how difficult it is, but [00:47:58] Brett: [00:47:58] you seen, have you seen [00:48:00] highlights? I think that’s. [00:48:01] Jared: [00:48:01] I have, I have, I was, and I was on the beta. I, It, I got to return to it. but it was pretty buggy and, and I’m, I don’t want to say inelegant, but, because. [00:48:19] Brett: [00:48:19] using plain text interfacing with PDF. So it’s [00:48:22] Jared: [00:48:22] No exactly. It’s going to be, it’s going to, it’s going to be a kludge, right? No matter what. but the, it’s all about minimizing friction, right. [00:48:32] And I felt like there was just a little bit more, maybe it was like one or two steps more than, then, then I felt like it was worth, to, to try to shift over to that, but I’ll, I’ll play around with it again. And, and I’ll get back to you about, [00:48:49] Brett: [00:48:49] I don’t have, like, I found the idea interesting and the execution seemed well done, but I don’t, I don’t need to annotate PDF. So I have [00:49:00] no metric by which to judge the app. So I would, I would take your, your, your judgment means more than mine does. [00:49:09] Jared: [00:49:09] Yeah. I mean, it’s also a very strange thing because it’s so, idiosyncratic and like, most people’s research methods, for instance, when I’m teaching a class, having a, a, an annotated PDF in front of me, Is incredibly useful because I have the, I have the class we’re going over the, the, the article now we’ll be able to refer them to here, there, but it’s actually quite a different thing that I need when I’m, when I’m writing up research or I’m doing research, right. [00:49:39] All I need for that is, a, snippets of, the highlighted or sort of pertinent, taxed and, and so, yeah. the special little snowflake might not warrant his own, boutique artisanal app. [00:50:00] [00:49:59] Brett: [00:49:59] Yeah. All right. Well, that brings us to the top three picks. [00:50:05] Jared: [00:50:05] Oh man. I have been racking my brain trying to find, trying to find three things that I thought would be novel or interesting. And I’m not, I. I’ve got two. And so I know that you have been doing, sort of a, it’s kind of like a, a Quaker prayer meeting version of top, top picks that you’re only speaking of the spirit moves you. [00:50:35] [00:50:36] Brett: [00:50:36] a third one for you. [00:50:37] Jared: [00:50:37] Oh, you do. [00:50:38] Brett: [00:50:38] take your third pick if you don’t want it. [00:50:40] Jared: [00:50:40] Well. how about, how about we go back and forth? I will say, I don’t know if folks are, I mean, and this is, this is. Apropos of absolutely. maybe I’ll give a bonus pick and give you some, some reading materials in, in the area of sort of, race and [00:51:00] algorithms at the end. [00:51:01] and maybe I’ll add those onto to so you can toss them in the show notes, but I’m going to do, a, a soul food. Or a pick for the pick for the, for the weary, for the weary among us, and suggest I for a long, long time, for one reason or another avoided watching the television show shits Creek. [00:51:24] which is, made by, Eugene Levy of, SCTV, the long time I think it was on SNL. He’s the bushy eyebrows guy from all the Christopher guest movies from my best and show. And I’m a mighty wind and whatnot, hilarious comedian. So him and his son. wrote this TV show, which I think if I’m not mistaken, it is on Netflix, which is about a super wealthy family who lose their money. [00:51:53] And, I have to move to a town that, that, that the father bought [00:52:00] for the son as a birthday gag gift, because the IRS Reaper possesses their, all of their, assets because they were involved, they’re, accountant was involved in some Ponzi scheme or something, and it’s just four seasons of this, you know? [00:52:16] Hilarious, a fish out of water type, a show that is just incredibly heartwarming at the same time as being incredibly sharp, a cervic and cynical. if that makes sense, and it seems incredibly appropriate for these times. So I’m going to suggest shit’s Creek. [00:52:39] Brett: [00:52:39] wept it cleaned up at the Emmy’s last night. [00:52:42] Jared: [00:52:42] Yeah, I know it’s a, a, not, not particularly off the beaten path, but I had resisted watching it for a long time. I haven’t, I have no idea why. And I, I, I absolutely loved it, because it didn’t force me to, to, leave my cynicism [00:53:00] behind in order to, enjoy the, the. that’s sort of very heartfelt and, and, and warm, dynamics that it sort of eventually gets to [00:53:13] Brett: [00:53:13] Yeah, I adore that show. I’ve watched it since the first season showed up on Netflix, which I think might’ve been a, I think two seasons might’ve shown up at the same time. cause it was originally a pop TV production, and I don’t know. I don’t recall exactly, but I watched, I remember watching two seasons, like binge watching it and then anxiously awaiting each season after I’ve loved it the whole time I liked it before it was cool. [00:53:43] No, I’m just kidding. It’s it’s a great [00:53:45] Jared: [00:53:45] I definitely did not. I didn’t, I did not like it before. It was cool. alright. How about you? You gotta, you gotta pick. [00:53:53] Brett: [00:53:53] I am super. So I think you were cognizant of the fact that I had started reading [00:54:00] Octavia Butler and I was getting into at that point, a black female Saifai, which as I mentioned this morning on overtired, w w N, which hasn’t come out yet, but, I didn’t realize it was a genre that existed. It’s not something I would have that there were. [00:54:21] Good black female Saifai writers for a lot of things, neatly racist and misogynist reasons, but it turns out there are a lot of really, really good, from African futurism to, vampire fiction coming from black female writers. And the one that I went through. Octavia Butler and then a bunch from NK Jemison. [00:54:48] And I just started the Binti trilogy from Netty Accora for, [00:54:53] Jared: [00:54:53] Yeah. [00:54:54] Brett: [00:54:54] and it is so good. I love her. [00:54:57]Jared: [00:54:57] Yeah, it is [00:55:00] a amazing, I mean, isn’t that wonderful when you, there’s a whole, suave of amazing, amazing sort of art that, and, and really, really profound ways. Like, you feel like, was just waiting for you. To stumble, it’s sort of like, slip, slip backwards and sort of luckily land in a pile of poop or whatever. [00:55:28] it, yeah, it’s pretty amazing. and I think I’m trying to think they were adapting sort of a, I think a, a there’s a development deal with HBO for adaptive. [00:55:43] Brett: [00:55:43] fears death is being developed by HBO. And, if, if I recall correctly, she mentioned on Twitter that Binti was being adapted for a, Hulu. That’s my recollection. I couldn’t find a reference for that though. [00:56:00] [00:56:00] Jared: [00:56:00] so now I’m going to have three because you just, kindled in my mind, a, a, recommendation. it is a film if you’re interested in black Saifai, it’s by, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting in that, directed by John Sayles. a white guy, it’s called the brother from another planet. [00:56:30] and it’s, it was made in 1984. and, it’s about an alien, an enslaved alien who, comes to, to, comes to earth, on the run from his home planet and lands in Harlem. and he can’t speak. but he’s being pursued by these, these two, slave catchers from his planet. [00:56:59] And it’s about, [00:57:00] him navigating, life in Harlem as an, as an, an alien slave who, who, who looks like a black human, Hm. In Harlem, in the eighties, and it’s, it’s, it is brilliant. and the, the lead is played by, by Joe Morton, who, recently of, scandal theme and, or, what else? [00:57:31] Gosh, she was in a, he plays Cyborg’s father and all of the new DC reboots, and actually incidentally, Narrated the audio book of the best VR audio book, version of the invisible man that I’ve ever heard. [00:57:48] Brett: [00:57:48] I would listen to that. [00:57:50] Jared: [00:57:50] Oh, Oh gosh. Yeah. If maybe we can sort of have a book club, but invisible man, it’s sort of one of the great works of, maybe humanity and I used to [00:58:00] live up the block in Harlem from, Ralph Ellis, where out Ralph Ellison, lived for most of the end of his life. [00:58:08] so my last pick is a deep cut. longtime listeners of, of the show should, be familiar with the name Merlin man, and, hu in many ways good and bad, is someone that I came across a guy. Gosh, I don’t even know how long ago. I mean, he’s old. And if I’m like, kind of getting old and he’s like really, really old. [00:58:38] but, but this was a, I came across him, I guess, like right. Maybe a year before he started doing, maybe a year and a half before, on, on a 85 folders or whatever his, his website, 56 or 12. 12 [00:59:00] folders, 13 folders. and I, I came across his work, right. When I think we talked about on the last podcast that I, kind of had a life and then went back to school when I was a little older. [00:59:14] Yeah. And I, I came across, his work on, on, on his website need to done, a couple of, of talks, on inbox zero. And, while I did, sort of have much for, for, in the way of a need for email management at the time, I was really struct about his, his take on work and, I don’t, I don’t even know if people sort of like use the phrase, knowledge, work in a serial, without like a, a smirk anymore. [00:59:46] though at the time the idea, sort of was, was very compelling and, and his, kind of land of broken toys approach to, to using. Himself and his [01:00:00] failures and his own experiments as a, as a means of offering something to people struggling in the same way was, was really, really important for me as sort of, as I felt like I was trying to, figure out how to be a college student and then sort of in graduate school and, and, and he, there’s a piece that he wrote in particular, that that, fans of his sort of will be familiar with, it is called, cranking. [01:00:28] and he wrote it. [01:00:31] Brett: [01:00:31] sent that to me a couple of weeks [01:00:32] Jared: [01:00:32] Yeah. Yeah. You know why? Because it’s perfect. It’s it is perfect for the, for this moment right now that we’re in, in that, for, for long story short, In in, in retrospect, I think sort of like the impression that I get is, is, is, he had a very ill considered book contract in which he was supposed to write a book about productivity and nominally, what his editors and sort of publishing company [01:01:00] wanted, was a book about email and, anybody who has followed sort of his career knows that the last fucking thing on, on earth that, that Merlin should like, would ever want to write. [01:01:10] Is is, is a book about fucking email. Oh, pardon me? Sorry. You might have to bleep that. so in retrospect that it, it seems hilarious to consider, but as someone who was sort of muddling through, my own sort of return to professional life and struggling with many of the things that he was struggling with in terms of writing and whatnot, and producing, there was a moment in which, I think that, things came to a head about sort of a decision of whether or not to move forward with this book, which this project, which seemed like the culmination of, of, many, many years of hard work and, and, and a, a, and sort of, this goal, this mountain, right. [01:01:57] That he seemingly right. [01:02:00] Had thought. he was supposed to be climbing and a moment in which he, realize that it was not, it was the, as he says, sort of like, the, it’s good to have a ladder, but sort of even better to, to, have the sense to, to know whether your ladder’s leaned up against the right wall. [01:02:20] Right. and I, the, the, the piece cranking is, is, is kind of, beautifully written. I think meditation on, on, that habitual practice of what does it mean? I mean that every day, every moment we all have to be figuring out whether or not our ladder is propped up against the right wall right before we figure out right. [01:02:52] whether or not our ladder is, is appointed in the proper way. Right. and that [01:03:00] in this moment where we’re all being forced, I think, or at the very least the, the, the show, the, the dynamics of the show must go on are pushing us all away from, from sitting with. a reckoning with the fundamental changes and transformations that are going on around us and, and the ins the just quite frankly insane circumstances, right. [01:03:24] That we’re undergoing that this is a, it’s a piece that I turn back to and, and, it was powerful in its, and the, the brevity, right. in which it, it. Offers you that gentle shock to the system of, a reminder that says, it, it’s not just, okay. Think about whether or not your ladder is propped up against the right wall, but it’s actually the only way [01:04:00] for you to live your life in a way that is, is going to be fulfilling to you and the people around you and the people with whom you want to live it with. [01:04:12] Right? I, yeah, it’s, ed always struck me, but, but it’s, evergreen, But particularly apt for the moment in which we are, which we’re all, facing that pressure of, being pushed towards scaling a mountain that, that everyone seems really convinced we should be scaling. [01:04:36] and what we might see that would otherwise be obscured. If we take a moment to, see if that ladder is up against the right wall, [01:04:47] Brett: [01:04:47] It’s easy to forget how good a writer Merlin Mann [01:04:50] Jared: [01:04:50] Jesus Christ. So good. So good. [01:04:55] Brett: [01:04:55] Yeah. All right. Well, tell people how they can find you or, [01:05:00] or contact you or whatever info you want to share. [01:05:03] Jared: [01:05:03] Well, I hate social media, so don’t find me. No, I’m kidding. You, I’ve got a website, which I’ll be, straightening up, and, as many people sort of like, yeah, it should be my own sort of, my own blog or something soon enough. Probably not. I’m trying to stay away from the dumpster fire that is Twitter. [01:05:27] you can find me@jaredrodriguez.com. and I, there’ll be an email link there. Folks want to follow up. and I do. Encourage folks, if you’re interested in, in sort of some of the, the academic subjects that we discussed, to take a look at, the show notes, because I’ll be sending, Brett some recommendations about, initiatives and, and books, and, some talks from some really knowledgeable folks, much more knowledgeable than I, [01:06:00] about, the really, really interesting work that’s going on and, the field of race and algorithmic justice. [01:06:08] Brett: [01:06:08] Excellent. All right. well, thanks for your time today. [01:06:12] Jared: [01:06:12] Oh, no worries. Thank you. [01:06:13] Brett: [01:06:13] There’s actually a lot. We didn’t get to, that was on my list to talk about. So we may have to do this again soon. [01:06:18] Jared: [01:06:18] How, I would be so psyched to come back because I feel like the first time we did a, we did this. I was completely incoherent because my kids were very, very, very young and I, I don’t even remember what I said. and this time you’re catching me in the midst. A global pandemic. So I’m a little afraid of what kind of mad, mad, mad max post-apocalyptic, hellscape real be a try to, Skype from or Skype through, the next time. [01:06:52] Brett: [01:06:52] Who knows? [01:06:54] Jared: [01:06:54] Yeah. [01:06:54] Brett: [01:06:54] and see. [01:06:55] Jared: [01:06:55] Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Brett.

Patrice Brend’amour is a content creator and developer. The last time we talked (2014), Patrice was living as a man, and this episode focuses on her transition to living as a proudly transgender woman. Sponsor Thanks to ExpressVPN for sponsoring Systematic this week! Keep your web browsing private from ISPs and the companies they sell your data to. Use ExpressVPN any time your online, even when you’re at home. Visit ExpressVPN.com/systematic to get an extra 3 months for free when you sign up for a year. Show Links @casual_kitchen on Twitter Foodie Flashback The Mac Show, Big Show on the British Tech Network ThePatrice More Reading Becoming Nicole If I Was Your Girl She’s Not There Becoming Eve Discover more good books… Top Picks Becoming Nicole Nicole Maines Mythbusters White Rabbit Project SmartDesk Premium Standing Desk Autonomous Xdesk (nee NextDesk)] Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at systematicpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting app. Find Brett as @ttscoff on all social media platforms, and follow Systematic at @systmcast on Twitter. Transcript Brett and Patrice [00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:00] Alright, so Patrice, how you been? [00:00:04] Patrice: [00:00:04] Uh, been been good. I mean, super, super busy. It has been, it has been awhile, like, I mean, systematic. What was that like? 2012 [00:00:14] ish. [00:00:16] Brett: [00:00:16] I actually, I built a search into my browser. I can tell you in seconds [00:00:22] Patrice: [00:00:22] course it did. [00:00:23]Brett: [00:00:23] you were on in 2014. [00:00:27] Patrice: [00:00:27] Okay. So it hasn’t been that long. I mean it’s still six years. Yeah. [00:00:31] Brett: [00:00:31] six years. And I, I realized this morning that envy alt the, the notational velocity fork that I made is 10 years old. This year. It’s been, it’s been a decade. Yeah. [00:00:45] Patrice: [00:00:45] That is a long time. [00:00:48] Brett: [00:00:48] time keeps marching on and I’m 42 now and, and the world is not slowing down. [00:00:54] Why does everything speed up as you get older? [00:00:57] Patrice: [00:00:57] Yeah. That’s, that’s the crazy thing. I mean the same for me. Like [00:01:00] I realized that I’ve been working like actively working job wise in software development for 10 years. Like almost exactly like 10 years in a couple of months. And like, I’m like, that’s crazy. [00:01:12] Brett: [00:01:12] I’ve been developing for the web for over 20 years now. That’s the kind of thing that old people say. [00:01:18] Patrice: [00:01:18] I mean, that means the web is at least 20 years old. [00:01:21]Brett: [00:01:21] Yeah. I started, I started in about 1990, probably 95 was when I made my first website. What’s that? 25 years. [00:01:32] Patrice: [00:01:32] that is yeah. 25 years. I mean, I’m, I’m close to that. I think my first website I made like in 98, maybe 97, 98, like eighth grade. That part I remember. [00:01:46] Brett: [00:01:46] when D HTML was hot technology, [00:01:49] Patrice: [00:01:49] yeah. Yeah. I mean, we started with like, Oh, is it like HTML? I want to say four was, Alrighty. Was it three or four? I don’t even remember. I [00:02:00] just remember we had like, there wasn’t like a club in school or wherever it basically, we got like a bunch of people got together and learned HTML and I just remembered that was a CT with like the latest HTML version. [00:02:11]Brett: [00:02:11] Was it an official club that the school endorsed or just a bunch of people that had common interest? [00:02:16] Patrice: [00:02:16] Uh, just a bunch of people. I mean, it’s more, it was, it was, I mean, the school was, I mean, obviously knew about it because we could use school resources and whatever, but there was no teacher or anything. It was like more informal. [00:02:30] Brett: [00:02:30] My school was like deathly afraid of anyone who knew too much about computers. If you appeared, if you appeared to have any hacking skills at all, they would like ban you from the computer lab. [00:02:41] Patrice: [00:02:41] Oh, yeah. [00:02:42] Brett: [00:02:42] left to our own devices. [00:02:44] Patrice: [00:02:44] I remember one of the guys in that slab got banned from, from the lab as well, because he changed like for like his senior year prank, he just changed all the backgrounds on the PCs to something and they didn’t appreciate that. [00:03:00] So he got banned. [00:03:01] Brett: [00:03:01] Yeah. Well, I mean, my school was rightly worried. Uh, I had access, I, I worked for a company called J tech, which did a lot of like computer maintenance and. Actual cleaning. Like the, my first, my first cleaning job was cleaning a 10 megabyte hard drive in a library. Like it was the size of a desktop machine. [00:03:23] Now it held 10 megabytes, but we would go in and clear out years worth of, uh, of whatever you call that grime that builds up inside fans. [00:03:34] Patrice: [00:03:34] Yeah. [00:03:35] Brett: [00:03:35] But so I had access to the computer labs over the summer. And I eventually figured out how to, through their intranet, how to get to the grades. and it was, they figured out that someone had accessed it. [00:03:52] They assumed it was me cause I was the only person in the lab over the summer. They were correct, but I still felt singled out. I could [00:04:00] easily teenagers, easily offended. [00:04:02] Patrice: [00:04:02] Yeah. It kind of makes sense. I mean, you’re like, well, like why me? Like [00:04:08] Brett: [00:04:08] Yeah, just cause I know about computers. You think I’m the bad kid. Okay. Fair enough. [00:04:15] Patrice: [00:04:15] The funny thing is I remember, um, we had doom on our, on our like lab computers and like, you could play it like multiple multiplayer over the network. I remember that it was like, I’d tell us somewhat official. Or like, at least I know that, uh, like whoever was in charge of the lab, computers actually knew about it. [00:04:38] So I was like, I was like, how was that allowed? [00:04:43] Brett: [00:04:43] do people still have land parties? Is that still a [00:04:47] Patrice: [00:04:47] I think so. I’ve heard some people still doing that. Uh, [00:04:53] Brett: [00:04:53] did that. Like, I. I was a very solo computer guy. Uh, [00:05:00] I got into like gopher and BBS is, but I never got into gaming on a network, but I was fascinated by the machines. People would build like these portable desktop machines, like cubes and, and water cooled, uh, CPU with handles on them. And yeah, [00:05:20] Patrice: [00:05:20] Yeah, I never, I mean, I did some land parties. But it was like three, four people. And it was, for me, it wasn’t like, I didn’t care much about gaming for me. It was more like a social thing. I was like, I mean, hanging out with friends and having fun and like sleepovers and all of that. And I mean, I was like, I want to say 15, 14, something like that. [00:05:43] 16, maybe. So. Yeah, it said for me, I’ve never been a big gamer. I mean, I’ve played some games, but I’m like, eh, I got into development early and like, it was always more fun tinkering with things and like destroying [00:06:00] things and then trying to figure out how to fix them then than anything else. Like, I mean, I don’t, I don’t remember how often I’ve like have had to install windows because I don’t know. [00:06:10] I deleted a file that I shouldn’t have or anything like that. [00:06:14] Brett: [00:06:14] I think my high school years were both basically spent recompiling Linux kernels. I got, I got really into Linux and I didn’t have a great understanding of like C and C plus plus I was still pretty new. I was, I was learning Pascal at the time, which also dates me. But, um, but yeah, like recompiling kernels was a regular, like almost weekly activity for me, trying to make my computer do new and different things. [00:06:44] Patrice: [00:06:44] Yeah, I do remember doing that, but for me it was like more like university time, like mean junior year. I started doing that and like, I mean, it wasn’t that I needed to. Um, but like I wanted to get better [00:07:00] graphics performance and that kind of required if we compiling your Corolla. So I did that a couple and I did that. [00:07:07] Like sometimes as you said, like three, four times a week, [00:07:11] Brett: [00:07:11] Yeah, for [00:07:11] Patrice: [00:07:11] Yeah, like optimizing things. [00:07:14] Brett: [00:07:14] where are you located right now? [00:07:16] Patrice: [00:07:16] Um, currently I’m in Austria, um, like somewhere relatively in the middle of Austria. So Yana on one side and then like Salzburg might be the other city that a lot of people know from like movies and stuff. Like basically on the other side here. [00:07:31] Brett: [00:07:31] Yeah, you move around a lot. Don’t you [00:07:34] Patrice: [00:07:34] um, kind of, yes. I mean, yeah, especially last CA I mean, since we talked last time or like, at least on systematic, um, I’ve moved a bit. [00:07:45] Yeah. Like I moved from, I moved within Koblenz and then I moved to Arizona and then moved there a little bit and I moved here. So [00:07:55] Brett: [00:07:55] Why? Why did, why did you move to Arizona? [00:08:00] [00:07:59] Patrice: [00:07:59] mostly work. Sorry about that. Um, mostly work. Um, Like my company. I mean, I always like had to plan and know that I wanted to do it. Like I just wanted to move like out of Germany and wanted to like work somewhere else. [00:08:15] Um, and it kind of, and I was talking to my managers back then, all of that. And then it kind of accidentally happened. Like they were like, okay, we’re moving a pro like a project that I started removing that to the U S for well, mostly tax purposes. Let’s be, let’s be honest. Uh, Yeah. I mean, there’s like a whole story behind that with like, I mean, basically it took over an existing project that was already running in the U S so it kind of made like there was a larger code base already in us and transferring that around the world to bleed didn’t make any sense. [00:08:47] So they kind of were like, I mean, we’re moving this over. Their management will be in an area in Phoenix. Do you want to move? And I was like, hell yes. I didn’t even think about it. It was like, yeah, sure. Like, why not? [00:08:59] Brett: [00:08:59] Do you, [00:09:00] is it aye. What I know of the German opinion of the United States, it seems like if you ask the German, do you want to move into, not even one of the more liberal States of the U S but into one of the most conservative States in the U S would you like to move? I wouldn’t think the answer would be hell yes. [00:09:23] Patrice: [00:09:23] I mean, I didn’t, I wouldn’t consider Arizona that conservative. I mean, it is pretty laid back. I mean, there are, like, I would say there’s a big divide in Arizona between conservatives and liberals. Um, like the also kind of between. I mean, let’s be fair skin colors. Um, but I, I would say, yeah, if you ask most Germans, I mean, one, most of them wouldn’t consider moving to the U S at all. [00:09:51] Like it’s, it is like the, is a group in Germany, like a group of people who like the U S and wanted to move there. And like, I dunno, I [00:10:00] think it was like somewhere around like a couple of thousand, at least every year. Do it, um, but it’s not like a space. I mean, Germany has like 80 million people or something. [00:10:10] And most people, if you ask them whether they would ever like in their entire lifetime consider moving to the States, they know, um, like it’s kind of a. Especially in recent years, like a little bit of a political thing. Uh, but I mean, like since I went to since 2000, to be honest, like 2000, 2001 and everything that has happened after that, but kind of changed a little bit the opinion about Nick DUS and yeah, but it’s fun for me, as I said, like, I mean, I didn’t know anything about Arizona. [00:10:42] Like I had never been there. Uh, I mean, it was kind of. I didn’t care. I was like, okay, there are some, like, so many of my friends are in the U S that I was like, I mean, it’s just easier for me to move there. [00:10:57] Brett: [00:10:57] Yeah. All [00:10:58] Patrice: [00:10:58] so kind of, I said it was [00:11:00] kind of, kind of an accident and it never, like, I didn’t even was expected. [00:11:03] Like, I mean, like I, uh, lease the car, like. Six months before that and got a dark like three or four minutes before that. So if I had known, I definitely wouldn’t have done any of those things. [00:11:14] Brett: [00:11:14] Sure, [00:11:15] Patrice: [00:11:15] That was kind of a, yeah, [00:11:17] Brett: [00:11:17] not how you, that’s not how you prepare for an international [00:11:20] Patrice: [00:11:20] no. Like, I mean, moving the dog, wasn’t that difficult, but the car turned out to be a little bit of a nightmare. [00:11:27] Brett: [00:11:27] No, [00:11:28] Patrice: [00:11:28] Yeah. Basically paid. [00:11:29] Brett: [00:11:29] dog would be harder. [00:11:30] Patrice: [00:11:30] the dark was, I mean, money wise. I mean, sure. You had to pay for it, but the company paid for it. So it wasn’t like a big deal. Um, the car was more of a nightmare because like the next BMW just didn’t want to take it back. They were like, Nope. And I basically, it stayed in Germany, like in a garage for the next Nike year and a half until like the lease was up and then they took it back and I was like, okay, that makes no sense at all, but okay. [00:11:57] Brett: [00:11:57] it really doesn’t. You would think the whole point of leasing [00:12:00] is that you could get rid of it when you want [00:12:01] Patrice: [00:12:01] Yeah. Yes, but I mean, you have, and that was like, it’s not about the money. I’m like, I’m going to pay you for like the rest of the lease and whatever. Like, I don’t care. It’s not that much. Uh, and they were like, no, we cannot do that. It’s a very German it’s, it’s somebody on we’re very German thing. Like there is no process to do it. [00:12:20] And customer service doesn’t exist in Germany. So they like. Well, not our problem. I went, [00:12:27] Brett: [00:12:27] customer service doesn’t exist. [00:12:29] Patrice: [00:12:29] that’s, that’s a very German thing. Like, I mean, there’s like a, in Germany people say like, it’s the like, whatever customer service desert, um, because like it’s, it’s customer service is a thing in the U S like very important that like, as a customer yet to happy. [00:12:45] I mean, mostly within reason, obviously. Um, um, and that, like, there’s an investment into customer service and like, In, in, in service in general, like, I mean, even at the restaurant, that’s not the case in Germany. Like, I mean, [00:13:00] there are exceptions, there are people who are like genuinely like interested in helping you and nice to you and whatever, but mostly it’s everybody like doing their own thing. [00:13:13] And it’s, it’s like on a, on, even on a corporate level. I mean, I saw it in, even in my company. I mean, There is a vast difference in customers like how customer services is approached in my company in Germany versus U S [00:13:28] Brett: [00:13:28] Yeah. You would say like the U S subscribes to the, the idea that the customer is always right? [00:13:34] Patrice: [00:13:34] yeah. Mostly as it, within reason. I mean, there are limits, like always, but it goes pretty far. Yes. It goes pretty far. Um, like one of the key experiences was, um, I actually recently in Austrian here, like I was at like a grocery store and I was returning my card and got, I got yelled at because the card wasn’t from that store [00:14:00] apparently. [00:14:01] And I was like, how is that my problem? [00:14:04] Brett: [00:14:04] yeah, I would say your [00:14:05] Patrice: [00:14:05] yeah, I, I, I took it out of this. I took it out of the thing, like at the store and I’m returning it here. And like, they get really angry with me. And I was like in the U S someone would have been like, Okay, this is not our card, but don’t worry. We’ll take it from you and we’ll take care of it. [00:14:23] And that is not how that works here. Not in Austria. Definitely not in Germany. [00:14:28]Brett: [00:14:28] Alright. [00:14:29] Patrice: [00:14:29] that was kind of, kind of, yeah, very interesting. [00:14:32] Brett: [00:14:32] So one of the reasons I had you on and, and something I have a lot of questions about is you, you have transitioned to being a woman. You are a trans woman. How long ago did you officially, uh, like publicly make that transition? [00:14:51] Patrice: [00:14:51] I mean, officially I start, I mean, I’m still transitioning. Um, that’s my kind of the process. I don’t know whether it ever ends, but, um, like it depends like some people say [00:15:00] yes, some people say no. Um, it was about a year and a little bit ago. Like, I mean, when I made it official, like it has been a process of like, I don’t know, um, 10, 20 years at least. [00:15:14] Uh, figuring out like who I am and like really realizing things. Um, but like [00:15:20] Brett: [00:15:20] Yeah. I didn’t assume. I didn’t assume you woke up one day and [00:15:24] Patrice: [00:15:24] no, no, it’s, it is not a choice. Like that’s, that’s a, that’s the thing that most people don’t understand. Like, it is not a choice. It’s not something that you like wake up one day and say, OK, I’m, I’m a woman now. [00:15:34] And just choose it. Um, it’s like a struggle to be honest. And I said it, I wouldn’t say it was easy. I mean, I’ve like knowing some other like trans people in general, uh, like either direction. Um, I’ve been lucky to be honest, like I know, I know, like I have friends that lost families and everything over it. [00:15:59] Um, or [00:16:00] like, yeah, really, really, really struggled like personally and financially with it. And I’ve been. So far. Okay. In general, I mean, nothing is easy. Um, [00:16:12] Brett: [00:16:12] Oh, absolutely. [00:16:13] Patrice: [00:16:13] yeah, I mean, I made it official about a year ago. Like before I got married, basically. [00:16:19] Brett: [00:16:19] And, and your, your wife is wife, [00:16:25] Patrice: [00:16:25] Yeah. Wife. [00:16:26] Brett: [00:16:26] wife. That’s what I thought. Um, you, your wife was accepting okay. With it. [00:16:31] Patrice: [00:16:31] Yes. Uh, I mean, she, she honestly encouraged me a little bit. I insane. The funny thing is she knew, she knew, like she knew for certain way before me, like she met me and like date one, she, she knew. Um, and, and for me, like it took a little longer to really. To really accept it. Like I knew deep down, I knew this was happening and I, I was getting to the point of like also [00:17:00] understanding it and accepting it, but it’s not an easy step. [00:17:03] Like, especially coming out to everybody. And like, she has a, she taught me after, like she started asking questions like a couple of months in, um, because she knew, um, and then like she told me, she was like, yeah, I knew take one on the first date. Like. She sees she, I mean, she really thought it would happen later. [00:17:26] Um, and I’m pretty sure, like if, like, if I hadn’t moved or if this whole move situation hadn’t happened, it might’ve taken a little longer. I think that just accelerated it a little bit or gave me like a very convenient starting point. Or like cut over point. Um, but yeah, she knew and she was okay with it. [00:17:48] I mean, she, she, the funny thing is, I mean, she is, she’s bisexual, more leaning towards women. She actually gave up on dating women like the year before. So, um, because that was difficult for [00:18:00] her. Uh, and yeah, that was kind of, kind of perfect. Yeah. And the kids, like, I mean, she has two kids and like the, the older one was like, I’m going to meet. [00:18:11] I told her, she was like, yeah, I know. I knew it’s like fine. I mean, she’s like 12 now. So I mean, she’s old enough to understand it. And I mean, to be, to be fair, the entire family is like, I mean, they’re all queer. Uh, like, I mean, I have a little step down a brother-in-law, uh, who’s trans who was trans, um, like. [00:18:37] I think my sister in law, one of my sisters at least is, uh, is gay. Um, so like it’s, it’s all over this family anyway. It’s like, they they’re used to it simply and that makes it easy. [00:18:50] Brett: [00:18:50] yeah. That is a really good position to, to find yourself in. Like I. I’m in a relationship. Um, I’m, I would say mostly straight [00:19:00] white male. Um, I don’t, I don’t require a lot of acceptance, but I’m in a relationship where I feel every aspect of me is so accepted and encouraged that it makes me want to cry sometimes. [00:19:14] And hearing, hearing about that situation for you also makes me want to cry because that is. Probably the most supportive environment that I could hope for in, if I, if I had to make that transition. [00:19:26] Patrice: [00:19:26] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and is it is on one hand, it should be super easy. I mean, it is not for like, I mean, it is hard for people to make, understand it and for some people to accept it or like, I mean, at least change, uh, I mean, like referring to a person. Like with whatever male or female pronouns for years and years and years, and then changing that and maybe even changing the name. [00:19:55] I mean, I didn’t, because I like my name, but a lot of people do, it’s not easy. Like it’s not [00:20:00] something that you can just change from like one day to another. And nobody expects that. Um, like that’s, that’s a really something, I mean, there has to be acceptance on also on all fronts. And I mean, I’ve talked to a lot of, lot of people, like all kinds of like trans, non trans, non binary, like gay, whatever, everybody. [00:20:21] Okay. Um, and the one thing is most people can differentiate between what is unintentional mistake and what is an antenna unintentional mistake. And what is like on purpose. Yeah, exactly. And that is for most people, that’s where the line is. I mean, it might still hurt if someone like misgenders you or uses the wrong name or whatever, it might still hurt, but most people can at least separate that and say, okay, it wasn’t intentional. [00:20:50] Like it was just a slip up. And most people are like my experience, at least I know not everybody has that. Most people are good with it. Like they’ll, they’ll correct themselves [00:21:00] or. Yeah. I mean, it has happened to me in like, I mean, I was in a meeting the other week and like one of my managers, uh, like mis-gendered me, but I know, I mean, he knows, and I know it wasn’t like he was just in, in the, in the situation because he’s like being really good before. [00:21:18] So I, it was just a slip up and it happens and I mean, he knows me from before, so I think that makes it harder. [00:21:24] Brett: [00:21:24] Do you think that not changing your name? So for me, with the people in my life that have transitioned them, changing their name by, by having to remember the new name, it helped me remember who they were now. And do you think that not changing your name is, do you think it added to confusion for people that have known you for a long time? [00:21:48] Patrice: [00:21:48] Probably yes. Um, it’s hard to [00:21:50] Brett: [00:21:50] I mean, you get to avoid being deadnamed. [00:21:53] Patrice: [00:21:53] it’s hard. It’s hard to tell. Uh, I think sometimes yes, because they’re just used to my name, [00:22:00] um, and just use certain gender assigned with that. Um, so I think, yes, probably. Um, but from, from me, it was simply, I really liked my name. I like that it’s unique. [00:22:13] I switched my middle name. So, um, I did change that, but that’s not the name that I usually use that much. Anyway. Um, but yeah, it probably made it harder, but for me it was like, that was a no brainer. I went kind of, I thought about it a little bit. Um, and, and ultimately I decided that I just liked my name too much. And it is the funny thing is in most countries, countries, other than France, it is actually a female name. [00:22:46] Brett: [00:22:46] Yeah, I was wondering like in, in Germany, is it, is it kind of a unisex name [00:22:51] Patrice: [00:22:51] Uh, [00:22:52] Brett: [00:22:52] more of a masculine [00:22:53] Patrice: [00:22:53] it, it is unisex leaning, female. That’s one of the reasons why my parents actually had to [00:23:00] pick a middle, like a male, like a unique, really male, middle name to make that clear. So that was the funny thing. And we’re like, I mean, kind of, kind of a happy accident. Yeah. Other than in France and did Francis for some reason, like, I mean, my name is French and in France, my name is Mayo. [00:23:22] Any other country? Like Switzerland, Germany, U S definitely mostly, mostly female. [00:23:29] Brett: [00:23:29] Yeah. All right. Um, so you talked about your wife’s side of the family. Have, have you had, uh, acceptance on your side of the family? [00:23:38] Patrice: [00:23:38] Um, mostly, yes. I mean, my family is a little bit like special, I would say. Uh, it’s something, I mean, I’m, I’m going through therapy and it’s something that I’m struggling with or working with, working on. Um, we don’t talk too much. Um, my, [00:24:00] um, my sister was great. I mean, we’re probably closer with my sister now than I ever was. [00:24:06] Through this. And, um, like she was like super like accepting. She’s like, Hey, that’s great for you. I’m like, I’m happy to have a sister. And like, if you ever need anything. Let me know, and that was it. And she’s been great. And like her, like my nieces, well, I mean, one of them is way too young anyway, to remember anything. [00:24:28] And the other one, there were some tears, like first five minutes, but I mean, you know, kids, they forget like she, she basically accepted it like 10 minutes after that, like. Five minutes. She’s like, unsure what’s going on. And then like, she’s, she stopped. And since then, she’s like super happy to have an aunt and everything. [00:24:46] Um, my mom and my aunt, I wrote her an email because like, as I said, we don’t talk. I mean, we, we talk on the phone, but it’s not like really having deep conversations. Really. That’s not something my family does and has never [00:25:00] done. Um, and she said cheeks, she accepts it. Um, and we’ve basically. Not talked about it at all. [00:25:07] And I’m not a hundred percent sure she is really behind it, but she also doesn’t like say or do anything that would like tell me she’s not, I think it’s kind of, yeah, I do. They’re like little hints here and there I’m like, I mean, she complained once then, like someone apparently in her little village that she lives in, figured it out and loud, like her, she was ruined or whatever. [00:25:30] Like she complained about that. But, I mean, she’s German. She likes to complain. So I didn’t read too much into that. I’m like, yeah. Okay. It will pass. It will pass. Like it’s the news of the day in the village and then it’s gone. Like, I didn’t care. Yeah. But other than that, like, I mean, I’m basically my family. [00:25:52] I have an uncle that I haven’t really talked about it. I mean, he, I know he knows and he hasn’t said anything and he calls me and everything and we talk so. [00:26:00] I think she’s, he’s fine. Um, and that’s fine. That’s about it. Like, my family is very, very small, so [00:26:07]Brett: [00:26:07] Alright. Alright. [00:26:09] Patrice: [00:26:09] That’s that, I’m, I’m lucky. I, that I know, like friends in Germany back, they lost family, friends, everything drop. [00:26:17]Brett: [00:26:17] Yeah. And those are the stories that I hear and that break my heart pretty regularly. Um, you made your kind of public transition as you move to the U S right. [00:26:30] Patrice: [00:26:30] No, not really. Um, it’s kind of opposite when I moved back. Like I like the projects that I was on, uh, kind of wrapped up or like, I mean, it’s still going, but like it changed, so they didn’t need me anymore in the U S. Um, so they probably have sent me back. And that was kind of the, that transition period between yeah. [00:26:54] Moving back wherever, like, I didn’t know even where I was going. Um, it was really nice. I [00:27:00] mean, I got like three free months paid leave, kind of. Didn’t do anything. Didn’t have to do anything other than preparing to move any somewhere and figuring out where, um, and that was kind of the point like that, that I chose. [00:27:12] Like, I mean, I talked to my wife about getting married because I was like, I mean, she wanted to move with me and the kids as well. And we were like, okay. So we have to definitely get married before that, because otherwise it will be very, very difficult. Um, and for me, that was kind of the trigger point where I said, Okay. [00:27:30] I don’t want to, I noticed this going on and this has been going on for a long time and it’s not like a thing that happened yesterday. I mean, is that like the, the first, like real, like the first, like really accepting, like we had the first time I really accepted that. I’m. Most likely transcended I’m I’m not happy. [00:27:58] The way I am was [00:28:00] 10 years over 10 years ago. So this is not a, like a happened yesterday thing. Um, so, but that was for me the point where I was like, I simply could not imagine getting married as a man, like with everything that comes with it. I didn’t believe in like the whole thing anyway, like. So the whole, like, traditions about what the man has to do. [00:28:22] And I love that. I never, I never related to that. I never believed in it. Um, and for me it was very clear. I’m like, I don’t, I don’t want to do this. [00:28:31]Brett: [00:28:31] So you had the, the timing of wanting to get married, combined with a geographical change, and that kind of solidified the need to make that transition. [00:28:42] Patrice: [00:28:42] don’t make it to make it public. And to finally do it, I said it was, it was a long time coming and kind of, I’d almost given up on like finding someone that, that like could relate to that and who could be with me and like, love me the way I am. Um, and [00:29:00] then like, it kind of accidentally happened. [00:29:03] Um, so, so it was kind of, yeah, it was, it was really. It was the right timing. And like, I came out to my, my old team in the U S and they were like, I mean, all women, to be honest, uh, that’s like a constant in my life. Like, I’ve been more friends with women and like close friends with women than men, like barely any friendships with men anyway. [00:29:25] Um, so like came out to them. Uh, and I mean, it was kind of, I don’t even know how it happened. I think I just talked to. I talked to one of my former employees. Like she worked for me, uh, Joanne and I told her, and I’m like, Hey, I mean, I am like, I’m trans. And I like, I want to get married as a woman. And she, she was my maid of honor, basically. [00:29:55] Uh, and she, like, she was super supportive and she was like, yeah, let’s do it. And [00:30:00] she helped me with like everything. And like, basically I told everybody else in my team and we met up like probably the week after like four for dinner or something or for lunch. And it was like the first step. And that one was easy. [00:30:16] The harder one was, um, like my, my, my, my mom. She wasn’t at them. She wasn’t at the wedding because, uh, she was in the hospital like the week before he entered honey. So that was kind of not happening. [00:30:31] Brett: [00:30:31] But it wasn’t like she disowned you. [00:30:33] Patrice: [00:30:33] No, no, no, no. She wasn’t able to, same for my sister. She got a kid like, uh, like a week before, like a bit new newborn baby. [00:30:41] So, I mean, we didn’t, she didn’t know if she could like even travel at all. Um, and then even with a newborn, I mean, you don’t want to travel like in a plane for like 15 hours or like 10, 12 or something. Um, so that my family wasn’t there. [00:31:00] Which on one hand made it easier, but also was hard because there was like, my friends were there, but there was nobody from my family. [00:31:08] Um, but that was kind of, yeah, I mean, this sense mostly. Um, but that was like the, the harder one, like, um, finding like, I, I wanted to send over photos to my family, obviously, uh, from the ceremony and everything. Um, Andy. Yeah, I had basically pre-written the email, like before the wedding or any, I had it ready to go, like whenever I’m I was done editing the photos and I sent it over and I was like, Hey, I mean kind of like little bit about the wedding. [00:31:42] Like, I mean, how everything was going, like when, and like tiny paragraph about like things I was like, okay, there are photos. You’re probably gonna wonder why I’m wearing a dress. That was kind of like the introduction and they explained it and like, try to explain [00:32:00] like, why what’s going on. And I mean, it shouldn’t have been a surprise, but I’m pretty sure it was. I mean, anybody who knows me and has known me for like, I mean, like at least closer, uh, over the years, Could have guessed. And a lot of my friends did, like, I mean, friends from Germany that like have known me for five years, sometimes longer. They weren’t surprised they were like, yeah, kind of, kind of makes sense. [00:32:26]They knew I was different. They knew something was going on. They weren’t like sure, because I never talked about it. Um, but they were kind of suspecting that something was happening. [00:32:40] Brett: [00:32:40] Yeah. So would you and I honestly don’t know the answer to this question. Would you say it’s easier to be a trans woman in Austria or Germany or in the U S. [00:32:53]Patrice: [00:32:53] Um, that’s, uh, that’s very difficult. Um, I mean, one us is big [00:33:00] and it builds, depend on where you are. Uh, I would say in Arizona it was, I mean, I only had little experience because like I came out basically like three months before I moved. Uh, but I would say overall it wasn’t too hard. Uh, I’m pretty sure if I had been in, I don’t know, Texas or Georgia. [00:33:20] Or Alabama or something. It might’ve been a little bit more difficult. I know from, from like people who are in that area, um, I’m like a couple of Facebook groups. Uh, it is small or difficult. They’re like even down to what does, uh, like what does your health insurance cover? Are there any doctors even available and all of that? so it, it’s hard to tell. I mean, Austria especially makes it super difficult to do anything like you need. Like, I mean, I’m, I’m still in the process of, uh, like going on hormones and I started beginning of the year. Um, and I’ve, I’m like maybe in October, I might be lucky enough [00:34:00] to, to get there because you need, like, at least six months of therapy, you need like, uh, you need like letters from like a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and your therapist, actually two letters. [00:34:13] Each, [00:34:15] Brett: [00:34:15] this is we’re talking about gender reassignment. [00:34:17] Patrice: [00:34:17] no, just hormone, hormone therapy, just for that. I have to go through another set of tests and letters and whatever, just for, for like in the future. And like couple of years, probably because you have to wait until at least two years, uh, for, for surgery. Yeah. So they make it like they follow like global guidance. [00:34:36] Like there’s a, there’s like a medical group called w path. Um, and they have like a guidance, how the process should be, and they just follow that here. And it is, uh, like it is very, very difficult. It just takes forever. It’s costly. Uh, I mean, insurance only covers certain things about blank. All the, like the letters basically I have to pay out [00:35:00] of pocket, which is like, I dunno, 300 bucks each, I think. [00:35:03] Um, so yeah, it is, it is a little bit of a process in the U S it would have been easier, like I could have walked into, um, planned Parenthood, for example. And most likely gotten like hormones, like a prescription within a week or two [00:35:21] Brett: [00:35:21] probably out of pocket, I [00:35:23] Patrice: [00:35:23] out of pocket. Yeah. But not very expensive. Like, I mean, it’s like, but from what I’ve seen depends a little bit on like the state, but like, 30 $40 a month. [00:35:33] So not, not, not too difficult. I mean, you have to run like blood tests and another like hundred 50, I think. Um, but, uh, yeah, that would have [00:35:42] Brett: [00:35:42] not the huge rigmarole that you have to go through. Wow. [00:35:47] Patrice: [00:35:47] also like name changes and like gender marker changes. Uh, same process. I’m still figuring that out because like an ostium I’m obviously German citizen. [00:35:55] So how does that even work? Like from another country? [00:36:00] Still figuring that out. I mean, seems to be rather easy. I can basically send two letters that I have to, to the courts in Germany and then let’s hope that they accepted. Otherwise. I have to somehow do the same thing again in Germany. So it is, it is a lengthy process and you have to be very, very patient. [00:36:19] I mean, it’s something you know about, like, I mean, with, with your history, like mental illness and so on, and like getting, getting the medication that you need. Uh, you know, that’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s a thing. And so that’s why I say like, it’s, it’s hard to tell really. I mean, um, Germany, it would depend on which era you are, whether people are accepting or not. [00:36:46] Um, like Berlin, for example, is like very queer and open or cologne is known for that. Uh, the Christopher street days are always in and in Berlin, uh, sometimes in Frankfurt as well. Um, so yeah, [00:37:00] there is a company unity and acceptance. Um, but it’s not, it’s not widespread. I mean, there are laws for like, uh, how to change your gender marker. [00:37:11] Um, like on your birth certificate and your name and all of that. And they’re from the eighties. And until I think what was it like three, four years ago, they required that you, uh, that your marriage is dissolved. If you have one that you, um, that you’re steroidal, so you can never have any kids. Um, and I don’t remember. [00:37:35] Oh, and do you have to have had surgery? [00:37:37]Brett: [00:37:37] Wow. [00:37:38] Patrice: [00:37:38] was like, I mean, eighties, eighties thinking, but that was like until the basically determined equivalent of the Supreme court kind of kick that out or kicked it out and said it’s [00:37:46] Brett: [00:37:46] That sounds more like fifties thinking that’s. Wow. [00:37:50] Patrice: [00:37:50] Yeah, but that’s, that’s still valid. Like, I mean, as that they kick that out like a couple of years ago. I don’t remember exactly when, but like, let’s say the last five years, uh, [00:38:00] like they basically said it’s it’s unconstitutional. Um, and there has been a fight for the last yeah. Four or five years at least to change, change the laws and make it easier for people to do it. [00:38:15] Um, and there was actually a first reading of a draft, like for, for new law and it basically got tabled in like till whenever. So yeah. [00:38:30] Brett: [00:38:30] well, Lisa is [00:38:31] Patrice: [00:38:31] kind of, yeah, it’s it there’s progress and there’s some support, but it seems to be not big enough yet. So yeah. [00:38:40] Brett: [00:38:40] All right. Well, first off, thank you for talking openly and putting up with my, uh, probably very naive questions. I appreciate that. [00:38:49] Patrice: [00:38:49] Oh, I said, I mean, we talked about this before and I said like, I mean, I’m, I’m more than happy to talk about it. Like it’s, it is something that a lot of people don’t know about or like it’s [00:39:00] very rarely talked about in the media in general. So, uh it’s. Yeah. It’s something important that, that there is someone out there who talks about it. [00:39:10] Brett: [00:39:10] All right. And second of all, it’s time for the top three picks. All right. So I, as I’ve been telling my guests, I no longer do my own top three. Um, so we’ll be talking about your top three and you can start with whichever one you want to. [00:39:25] Patrice: [00:39:25] Okay. Um, um, let’s see. Which one do I start with? Um, maybe, maybe let’s stay on topic. There’s a really, really good book. Um, From a trans woman. Uh, I mean she transitioned like as a really lanky young kid. I think she’s like her mom. Realized that she was trans around like four or five. Um, the, the it’s, she’s an actress nowadays. [00:39:53] Uh, you might know her from, um, super goal. Uh, it’s Nicole manes, uh, also [00:40:00] very famous, uh, like she, you in, in Maine actually, uh, she was, well, her parents, but like, because of her or behind the whole, um, like bathroom, So a school bathroom situation and the bill out debt ultimately passed there. Um, and the book is called becoming Nicole. [00:40:19] And is this about, uh, both her and her twin brother? Uh, Do you remember his name? I’m blanking on it. Um, but basically about like growing up and it’s, it’s from the perspective of her mom, like how she struggled with it also like her dad, how like he dealt with it and how they navigate it. Like, especially with a young child, like how they, how to figure that, figured it out and how they very, very slowly navigated everything and like the fear that she had to live. [00:40:49] I mean more the parents, but I think also it. Kind of like the kid as a child, you, you like, yeah. You realize something is going [00:41:00] on and you know, like, I mean, you don’t, like you realize at some point that you can’t talk about it, like with your, with your friends or something, uh, or it’s very dangerous to do that. [00:41:08] And that like navigating that and like how that all happened. And it was a really, really good book, uh, becoming cold air, so many other books. Um, but does this for me? Kind of a all time best seller, because it’s, it made me probably realize a lot of things that I didn’t realize or that I didn’t like that I knew they were happening, but I couldn’t place really. [00:41:34] And when I saw what was happening to her, I was like, Oh, that makes so much more sense now. Um, so if it’s simply a very good book and there’s an audio book version now on audible, if you wanted a it’s narrated by, I think even by her mom, I’m not a hundred percent sure. Um, but it’s a really good book. [00:41:55] Brett: [00:41:55] I’ll admit I become way better at listening to books than I have at reading them. [00:41:59] Patrice: [00:41:59] Meet [00:42:00] you it’s simply a time. It’s simply a time thing for me. Like it’s very difficult to, um, yeah. To have enough time to read. Like I’m reading. I mean, kind of like you probably, if you’re reading all day, like reading blog posts and stack overflow and cold and whatever, and like all I ever see, like a lot of Stafford reading all day, and it’s very difficult when you want to like wind down to still read, to have also the time for it. [00:42:30] And it’s easier to like go in and walk for example, and listen to an audio book, which is what I do usually. [00:42:36] Brett: [00:42:36] I tend to fall asleep reading, whether I’m listening or reading, if it’s at night, I just fall asleep. The nice thing about books is when I fall asleep, I stop reading. But with audio books, every time I start, I have to rewind about. Five. I put like a 15 minutes sleep timer on, cause I always fall asleep after about 10 minutes and then I have to rewind five [00:43:00] minutes and it takes me a while to get through a book that way [00:43:03] Patrice: [00:43:03] Yeah, I have to same, same problem. I mean, it’s one of the reasons why I don’t do that with audio books anymore, but like listening to them. Like in bed at night. I usually do that with TV show. So like, I, I watch a TV show and then fall asleep, halfway through, and then like Plex keeps going for the next, like three episodes. [00:43:21] And like, I have to figure like track back, like where did I fall asleep? So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s funny. Yeah. I, I, I do it more on walks nowadays. Like that’s easier because like you can stop and start it anytime, but you still, like, it takes like a whatever, a 10, 12 hour book. Takes a weeks ago feel, especially when you have a lot of podcasts to listen to as well. [00:43:41] Like I don’t, I don’t want to abandon these. [00:43:44] Brett: [00:43:44] Yeah. I’ll admit I’m still not good at listening to podcasts. [00:43:48] Patrice: [00:43:48] Yeah. [00:43:48] Brett: [00:43:48] am going to check out becoming Nicole, because it is a topic that I’m very curious about and have a lot to learn about. [00:43:54] Patrice: [00:43:54] Yeah. And if anybody wants any other recommendations, there are some, some other really, really good books, [00:44:00] um, to release or to listen or read, um, [00:44:03] Brett: [00:44:03] You want to listen to me? [00:44:04] Patrice: [00:44:04] Oh, I have to look them up to be honest. Uh, there were a couple, uh, from, from other trans women or even trans men, um, [00:44:12] Brett: [00:44:12] If you, uh, if you want to get me a list, I’ll add them to the show notes for this. [00:44:17] Patrice: [00:44:17] I’ll let me write that down. [00:44:18]I’ll I’ll provide a couple, there are a lot, um, especially I’m recommending, also reading about trans men because it like a lot of people focus on, on the women, um, for whatever reason, uh, properly the whole old patriarchy thing. Um, and men get ignored a lot or they’re less, I don’t know. They’re less threatening. [00:44:41] I don’t know what it is. [00:44:43] Brett: [00:44:43] No, I think, I think it very much is at least in the culture I grew up in, I think it’s less threatening to have a woman be a man than it is to have a man be a woman. There’s it, it feels different in my, in my psyche. Um, and I don’t like, I [00:45:00] can’t, I would take some therapy to, I think, to figure out exactly why, [00:45:04] Patrice: [00:45:04] Yeah, it is, [00:45:05] Brett: [00:45:05] definitely see that. [00:45:06] Patrice: [00:45:06] it is a cultural thing. I mean, especially in the Western world, uh, other cultures are different yet, right? Like in pic just depends. There are cultural stuff had like. Transwomen for like centuries millennia sometimes. Um, or like half, even three genders, like in general [00:45:26] Brett: [00:45:26] Right. I know in native American culture, the idea of the two spirits, this idea that there isn’t, that gender is non-binary and, and non binary is something to be celebrated. I’ve been reading about that. [00:45:41] Patrice: [00:45:41] Yeah, exactly. So it’s, it’s not a new thing. It’s like a lot of people say, Oh, this came up the last couple of years. Now this has been around for a very, very, very long time. [00:45:51] Brett: [00:45:51] For sure. [00:45:52] Patrice: [00:45:52] Um, [00:45:53] Brett: [00:45:53] than recorded history, perhaps. [00:45:55] Patrice: [00:45:55] most likely, yes. I mean, there are stories, stair stories in recorded history that [00:46:00] where you’re like, okay, like that kind of sounds like there were trans women and trans men back then. [00:46:07] I think as far as I remember even in the Bible, if you read it correctly. [00:46:12]Brett: [00:46:12] If you choose, if you choose to interpret it, [00:46:15] Patrice: [00:46:15] Yeah. It’s it’s all about interpretation. Yeah. [00:46:18] Brett: [00:46:18] right, in a, in a less than modern Christian way. Um, all right. Second [00:46:23] Patrice: [00:46:23] Second pig is an oldie, but a goodie. Um, it’s miss passers. I am right now, binge watching them again. Um, kind of, because I wanted to and kind of, because, um, granted Mahara just recently died. A very young age and I kind of wanted to watch it because of him, but I already made plans to watch rewatch it again because I do that every couple of years. [00:46:48] Um, but it’s, it is, I’m almost through Mo I think I’m halfway through the seasons, like right now, uh, I mean, this show was going on for how long, 12 years, 10 [00:47:00] years, something like that. A very long time and it is such a good show. Like, I mean, all the content, I mean, they started in early two thousands and all the content. [00:47:12] I mean, there are some things that are kind of dated now, like cell phones or whatever, like, I mean, flip phones, um, but almost all the content they, for me is still relevant. Like the myths that they bust it, they’re still relevant. And people today still believe with them sometimes. And. It’s just, I mean, it’s entertaining. [00:47:33] It is like a lot of really good, like science content and information, and they tackle like the craziest things. And during like, sometimes it’s really embarrassing what they did and they sit back, they do like, I mean, all of them are like admitting that they’re like, I mean, we did the craziest stuff, like ask Carrie Byron on Twitter and she’s like, yeah. [00:47:54] I mean, there was a crazy time. Um, But that’s what it means. What made it really good. And I kind of [00:48:00] miss a show like that today, to be honest. Um, so ms. Foster is like, [00:48:05] Brett: [00:48:05] What, what service are you watching that [00:48:07] Patrice: [00:48:07] um, well I have, I have the DVDs and I have it on Plex. Um, but it is, as far as I remember, I might have to look that up again, but I think it was an Amazon. [00:48:18] Either that or Netflix like could be Netflix because they also have the white rabbit project, which was like a, kind of a follow that Carrie. And, um, I think I wasn’t carrying grants. Did I? I might remiss remember that. I know Kari Byron was there. Uh, but basically the, I think to build team like to cult build team, they did like a Netflix show called the white rabbit project. [00:48:46] Um, and kind of in the same spirit as MythBusters. Um, and yeah, it’s, I still miss it, to be honest, there’s still so much stuff they could have done. I mean, I, [00:49:00] I understood it like after 12 years or whatever that they were kind of burnt out. Uh, but there’s a space, I would say it’s a space for a show like that now. [00:49:11] Brett: [00:49:11] I’ll have to look up white rabbit project. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that. [00:49:14] Patrice: [00:49:14] Yeah, it wasn’t like wildly, like it wasn’t a media. And also it’s more like a niche thing that for people who were big fans of MythBusters and were following them on Twitter, you, you do about it. Um, unfortunately, yeah, it kind of got lost in the whole, uh, Netflix mess. Like, like all the shows they’re producing, really like to have whatever. [00:49:39] 5,000 shows a week. So I like that you show us. [00:49:43] Brett: [00:49:43] Three seasons if 5,000 [00:49:45] Patrice: [00:49:45] yeah, exactly. Like it’s a, it was a little bit hard. It’s one of the reasons my dropped off Netflix, because it was just getting to a point where I’m like, okay, I don’t it’s too much like too many options, which then makes it hard to choose. And I [00:50:00] was like, okay. [00:50:00] I might not [00:50:01] Brett: [00:50:01] paradox of choice. [00:50:03] Patrice: [00:50:03] yeah, exactly. Yup. [00:50:05] Brett: [00:50:05] All right. What’s your third [00:50:07] Patrice: [00:50:07] My first pig is a, the standing desks that I just ordered. I’m huge fan of standing desks. I built my own desks back in like big and Trinity back in the day out of like Ikea Ikea stuff. Um, I bought one in the U S that didn’t have to sell because it kind of, yeah, it was way too expensive too, to take it to, to Austria. [00:50:28] Plus, I mean, the whole, like the whole power thing where it’s like a hundred, 110 volts [00:50:35] Brett: [00:50:35] 110 [00:50:35] Patrice: [00:50:35] Yeah. Versus two 40, that would never work. And I was like, okay, it’s not worth it. Um, it’s from, uh, so, so the problem, the problem is here in Europe, it’s hard to get standing desks. I mean, there’s Ikea, which, um, some people, like I’m not a fan of their desks. [00:50:52] Um, there’s obviously the whole like old school really expensive, like office supply ones where [00:51:00] like you pay like 1500 bucks for a more or less standard desk. Um, is that the U S companies that are love? Um, yeah, they’re they don’t ship figure out, but if they do ship it’s like shipping is like 400 bucks, which is almost as much as the desk. [00:51:16] Um, but there’s one company called automata autonomous. That I’m a very familiar yeah. With, because I bought a chair from them and I’ve been kind of watching them for a really long time. Uh it’s at autonomous ai.ai. Um, and they actually ship for free, they’re sending desk to Europe. Um, and I know their stuff is really good. [00:51:39] I have quite a few friends that haven’t. Um, so I ordered that and I ordered the, basically just the frame because the tabletop wasn’t like really what I wanted. Like it wasn’t big enough and yeah, just didn’t make any sense. So I just ordered the frame and ordered the tabletop here and made my own desk. [00:51:58] And for the [00:52:00] office actually, Fully adjustable, like, uh, like I ordered the premium version, so it’s like two mortars and fully electronic and everything, uh, everything you need basically. And I’m a big fan. Like I like, I like standing, like I, yeah, honestly, I mean, for podcasting, especially I kind of miss it. [00:52:20] I like it. Yeah. Didn’t buy one here for, from my office. Um, and I miss it really. I like standing more than sitting. [00:52:27]Brett: [00:52:27] Yeah, I, um, I bought a next desk, uh, adjustable, like it’s got the controller and you can just push a button and turn it into a standing desk. And I paid, I think almost two grand for it. And it looks almost exactly like this one that they have for like $400. [00:52:49] Patrice: [00:52:49] Yeah, the frame, the frame is about, uh, well, right now it’s like three 19 as far as I can see here. Um, so this is just the frame, the tabletop, like with the [00:53:00] tabletop, it’s like, let’s say $400 for an eight, four 20, something like that. [00:53:04] Brett: [00:53:04] Yeah, [00:53:05] Patrice: [00:53:05] so yeah, and, and it is. [00:53:07] Brett: [00:53:07] premium. [00:53:09] Patrice: [00:53:09] Exactly. Yeah. I bought the DIY kit premium dual motor that’s at the, the cool thing is you can like, literally pick your own tabletop. [00:53:18] I mean, they have a, they have a range of, I think, reasonably priced and really nice looking, they will, but you can literally, like, I don’t know, go to home Depot or whatever and pick up one that you like. I mean, I’m, I’m a big fan of like wooden tabletops. Um, not for the office, like here. I kind of didn’t want to do that since then. [00:53:38] Like the cleaning, the cleaning staff might not treat it well. So like, eh, maybe, maybe I’ll use something that’s a little bit easier to clean, but for like, for my home office, um, like I like, like. Hardwoods, um, just oil, it like, like sand it oily, and then like use whatever tabletop you want. And like, you [00:54:00] can even pick your own science. [00:54:01] That’s a cool thing. You buy the dike DIY kit and you can just pick whatever size you want. Like whatever fits in your, in your house, in your apartment, in this space you have, or like, however, like they have some size limits, obviously. Like how small or how big it can be, but it’s pretty wide. Like a, I would have to look it up. [00:54:18] Um, I think it’s like, See, um, what does it say here? Uh, and well, 42, 73 inches, basically. [00:54:31] Brett: [00:54:31] Nice. All right, [00:54:32] Patrice: [00:54:32] So that’s, that’s kind of nice range. [00:54:36] Brett: [00:54:36] Um, I am remembering now that part of the reason my desk was so expensive is because it came with a treadmill. [00:54:42] Patrice: [00:54:42] Okay. That makes it okay. That makes sense. Sure. [00:54:46] Brett: [00:54:46] But still, I think the desk itself was still like $1,500, which now seems ridiculous. But at the time it seemed like the best one I could find. [00:54:56] Patrice: [00:54:56] Yeah. I mean, [00:54:57] Brett: [00:54:57] then I was making six figures and it was no [00:55:00] big deal, but. [00:55:00] Patrice: [00:55:00] sure. Yeah. I think, I think that that’s the, that’s the whole thing. Why these companies exist and there I said I’ve, I’ve had a, I think it was an uplift desk before. Which was really, really good. And I’m like, those companies exist for that reason because, cause it was a market that was basically, well mostly for either people making six figures or, uh, yeah, I mean like, like people furnishing offices, like professional, like office, office cubicles, and, um, Yeah, there you could. [00:55:34] I mean, I’m pretty sure, like my company in Germany bought like standing desks for the new, like new buildings since on, and I’m pretty sure they paid way too much for it because they just, like, they just went to their office supply company and we’re like, okay, we want standing. Yes. And they probably charged like 1500 bucks for each one of them. [00:55:53] And I’m like, I could have gotten you three for that. [00:55:56]Brett: [00:55:56] I’m looking at the next desk site, which is now known as [00:56:00] X desk. Um, and they don’t even list prices, which is always a scary thing. Oh, here it is. The, uh, the X desk X desk air. It starts without a treadmill at 2178. So [00:56:15] Patrice: [00:56:15] Wow. [00:56:17] Brett: [00:56:17] And then if you want the matte black, you can go up to $2,700. [00:56:21] Patrice: [00:56:21] Hmm. Yeah. Um, I mean, I’m, I’m pretty sure they are probably very, very nice and very, very fast and whatever, but I’m like the desks I’ve had and the desks I’ve seen, like, like at my friend’s houses, I haven’t had found any issue with them. I like they’re not too load or not like wobbly or anything. [00:56:45] I’m like, they’re, they’re fine. Like, I don’t know why you would pay more than that. [00:56:50] Brett: [00:56:50] I think, I think next desk got in trouble because their, uh, their desks were prone to tipping. If I remember correctly, [00:57:00] mine’s never tipped. It’s never seemed like it’s going to tip, but that was the, uh, the major safety complaint was, uh, was tipping with theirs [00:57:08] Patrice: [00:57:08] Yeah. I mean, that, that can happen. I mean, there’s a lot of like, especially if you fully extend them, like all the way up, if you’re, I don’t know, six, seven or something, I could definitely see that happening at some point. [00:57:20] Brett: [00:57:20] yeah, yeah. [00:57:21] Patrice: [00:57:21] Yeah. [00:57:22] Brett: [00:57:22] Um, I’m I’m six foot, but on top of a treadmill, I’m closer to six, five anyway. Um, yeah, so people can find you you’re you’re frequently, regularly on the British tech network on the Mac show and the big show. And you have a podcast called foodie flashback. [00:57:43] Patrice: [00:57:43] Yeah, [00:57:43] Brett: [00:57:43] Where else can people, where else can people locate [00:57:46] Patrice: [00:57:46] Um, I would say the easiest is to head over to the patrice.com that redirects to my website. It was just easy. I like my website is actually my last name, Brenda moore.net, but nobody can spell that. So [00:58:00] I just, at some point just said, okay, the Patrice. That works and it just redirects. Uh, it’s like probably like for you like TD scoff and like, nobody can remember Brett TURPs drop properly with the three T’s. [00:58:14] Brett: [00:58:14] TT scoffed.com and dot net with no E interp stra those both redirect to dot com. Yet I still find myself spelling out Brett terptree.com for people [00:58:27] Patrice: [00:58:27] exactly. This [00:58:27] Brett: [00:58:27] when I’m on a phone call and they ask me what email address to use. And I have to I’m like, do you have my name in front of you? Just put it all together. [00:58:34] Patrice: [00:58:34] exactly. I did the same thing. I’m like first name@lastname.net and people still get it wrong. So yeah, no. So the patrice.com, that’s where you will find like all the links, like the podcasts and, um, yeah. Open source projects and all of that. [00:58:50] Brett: [00:58:50] all right. Well, thanks again for being here. [00:58:54] Patrice: [00:58:54] It was a really great pressure pleasure. Uh, I’m really happy that systematic it’s back. I mean, [00:59:00] I’m not going to lie. Fs did. I was kind of wondering, I was like, Oh, what happened now? I mean, I’ve, I’ve listened. I mean, we talked about like in 2014 when I was on, I had already been listening for like a couple of years. [00:59:10] So that probably means I probably start listening very, very early. Uh, I didn’t even think it goes to, I thought I jumped in somewhere in the middle, but then I saw it. I was like, [00:59:20] Brett: [00:59:20] I think it started in like 2012, so [00:59:23] Patrice: [00:59:23] yeah. I probably [00:59:24] Brett: [00:59:24] a new podcast at the time. [00:59:26] Patrice: [00:59:26] Yeah. I I’m, I’m thinking like, I probably listened from like either episode one or like very early on Watson. [00:59:32] I’ve always enjoyed it. Like every, every single guest I’ve enjoyed. So I really missed it. I’m also happy that overtime [00:59:38]Brett: [00:59:38] I really appreciate that. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s comforting to note that someone missed [00:59:43] Patrice: [00:59:43] No. Absolutely. Like overtired is such a fun podcast. So [00:59:48] Brett: [00:59:48] I, and, and I will be publishing by the time this episode comes out, it will have already been out, but as of right now, I’ll be publishing the first episode next week. I’m excited. [00:59:59] Patrice: [00:59:59] yeah, me too. I [01:00:00] can’t wait. [01:00:01]Brett: [01:00:01] All right. Well, I hope to talk to you again in less than six years. [01:00:05] Patrice: [01:00:05] Let’s let’s see. [01:00:07] Brett: [01:00:07] Alright, [01:00:08] Patrice: [01:00:08] Thank you. Thank you.

Rabbi Eric Linder returns to discuss things musical, technical, and rabbinical. But not in that order. Geeky Rabbi @geekyrabbi (Jewish stuff and current affairs) @eroxx (geeky tech stuff) Klezmer Klezmer Local 42 Facebook Klezmer Local 42 – Hebrew School EWI (Electronic Wind Instrument) Gogol Bordello Ulysses Drafts Rosemary Orchard Drafts and Omnifocus Template Omnifocus Roxsyn Tonestack Ableton Live Scarlett i18 i8 Komplete Audio 6 Yamaha MG16 Kaoss Pad Billie Eilish breaks down Bad Guy Top Picks Taylor Swift – Folklore Duolingo Lifeslide Transcript Brett and Eric [00:00:00]Brett: [00:00:00] Hello rabbi. [00:00:02]Eric: [00:00:02] Hello, Brett. [00:00:03]Brett: [00:00:03] So big life news for you. You just had a baby [00:00:07]Eric: [00:00:07] I did. Well, my wife did, but yes, uh, nine weeks ago. [00:00:12] Brett: [00:00:12] nine weeks that I don’t understand child development. What, what stage is nine weeks? [00:00:18]Eric: [00:00:18] I, we’re not sure if he’s starting to talk yet when he’s going to college [00:00:22] Brett: [00:00:22] I don’t, I don’t know how this works. [00:00:24] Eric: [00:00:24] Yes. So nine weeks still, unfortunately, a pooping in his pants. Um, but starting to smile and that’s a recent development and an adorable recent development, um, starting to discover his limbs a little more and a little bit more control, but still sometimes punches us when we’re holding him. [00:00:42] Hopefully not purposefully. [00:00:44]Brett: [00:00:44] my little brother had a thing about punching people in the nose. He gave me bloody noses. [00:00:49] Eric: [00:00:49] Ooh, well, you know, nine weeks, they’re not strong enough to do that, even if they wanted to, but, uh, [00:00:55] Brett: [00:00:55] he kept doing it well into his, his toddler years. [00:00:58]Eric: [00:00:58] it was twenties. [00:00:59][00:01:00] Brett: [00:00:59] He’s a pacifist now. Um, yeah. Well, congratulations. [00:01:05] Eric: [00:01:05] Thank you. [00:01:06] Brett: [00:01:06] Um, so I basically want to split today’s interview up into three parts, uh, which we, we discussed in the pre show, but, uh, stuff relating to your work stuff, relating to your music, which I’m super interested in. And then a little bit of tech talks. So if that all sounds good to you, [00:01:26]Eric: [00:01:26] Triumph for it. I love it. [00:01:28] Brett: [00:01:28] I, you may have noticed we’re living in a pandemic right now. [00:01:31] Um, Unprecedented times, and you are a leader of a congregation. So tell me a little bit about how things have changed for you. [00:01:41]Eric: [00:01:41] Well, in some ways, um, the, everything has changed and, and, um, you know, if it wasn’t for the internet zoom in particular, um, I think a lot of us would not be able to do some of the things we’re doing. So, you know, one of the. The things that [00:02:00] so sure. I think in any religious organization, certainly, um, you know, is proximity. [00:02:06] You, you get together to worship when someone has a wedding you gathered to celebrate, you gathered a mourn, um, you know, our regular, weekly Shabbat prayer services when people come together and we share food after the service and, and kind of what we call the, the own egg, which is the schmooze time following the service. [00:02:24] Yeah. And, um, like most congregations, at least in my denomination of reform Judaism, our building is closed. I’ve been. As a slight aside, I’ve been very keen to say that our building is closed. We are not closed as the community is open, but the building is closed and why not being able to visit people, especially, um, you know, people who are in the hospital, not necessarily for COVID, but just, you know, getting scheduled operations or sick, um, or we’re really. [00:02:57] Hurts me is we have a few [00:03:00] homebound congregants, you know, people who are elderly, um, that live by themselves summit and nursing homes. Some not, and I cannot visit them. Um, and you know, for those, with hearing issues, I can’t call them. And so things like that have been difficult. Um, You know, if anyone here is part of a worship community, I’m sure you’ve had a similar experience of, um, you know, services on zoom or whatever platform. [00:03:27]Um, it is something and thank God for it. Um, but it is not the same as, you know, being, being in the same place. Um, and being able to kind of gauge reactions and play off of one another and, and feeling the energy of the room, so to speak. Um, you know, there’s a reason I think in Judaism, why. We have, um, there’s, there’s a rule that says, whenever you do a formal prayer service, you need at least 10 people, traditional Judaism. [00:03:55] It’s 10 men, uh, in our version, it’s 10 Jewish adults, which means men [00:04:00] or women over the age of 13. And. You know, th that physical cool again, proximity means something, it changes the caliber of the service. And so I have missed that. I know my congregants have missed that. And then just kind of you don’t normally, when I prepare for services, I’m thinking about the tour portion. [00:04:18] I’m thinking about what I want to say in my sermon. Um, I’m thinking about what sort of participation and readings I want to have now, in addition to that, I have to think about, okay, does everyone have the zoom link? Does everyone know how to use zoom or are the videos that the people sent me in the right orientation, portrait or landscape, like all of these kinds of things that I have to do and any, any, I mean, and this is not, of course unique to, um, to worship leaders. [00:04:46] I mean, all sorts of jobs have been having to kind of reinvent themselves, but it is an added layer of complexity for sure. [00:04:54] Brett: [00:04:54] so have you. I mean, you’ve adapted to, [00:05:00] to, uh, the requirements of the pandemic. Have there been any innovations that new things that you’re able to do or that you figured out how to do that have actually been, uh, perhaps maybe not better, but, uh, new and beneficial. [00:05:18] Eric: [00:05:18] Oh, my gosh. Abs. Absolutely. And so I’ll give a personal example is my son’s baby naming. So, you know, we, we did our son’s baby naming over zoom. And of course, you know, in a normal I’m putting air quotes in. I hope everyone can see them in a normal time. A baby naming is done typically at the family’s house and you invite friends and family. [00:05:38] And in our case, our plan was to invite our entire congregation and kind of do something in the backyard. Um, and then there’s again, food afterwards because we’re Jewish. We eat. Uh, but in this case, so this part was not the positive, but what happened and was people were able to, to join from all, not only all over the country, but I have a cousin living in [00:06:00] Guam that was on it. [00:06:01] And so people that would not have been able to participate or watch the baby naming normally work. And that’s been true for our weekly Shabbat services. We actually have a bar mitzvah this week where family members will be coming on from all across the country. I’ve actually had a few congregants say to me, you know, when we do go back to something, you know, I don’t want to, I don’t like to say back to normal because I don’t know. [00:06:27] You know, even if God willing there is a vaccine and everyone is completely safe. Okay. I think this still may change how. Congregations do, do things, you know, um, and again, not just kind of allegations and I’ve had a few people say to me, you know, I, I like the zoom service, like, you know, people who are more introverted, for example, like being on without the pressure of being social for, you know, for example, Holden. [00:06:53] And so there are some, um, I, you know, I don’t know if you’d call it a blessing or, you know, the silver lining, but there [00:07:00] definitely are some facets of this, uh, that we never would have thought of. If we were just gathering in the sanctuary all the time. [00:07:07] Brett: [00:07:07] Yeah, so I don’t know anything about church, but I do know that with my girlfriends yoga classes, doing them over zoom is obviously a very different experience, but it’s. It’s close enough to, socializing that a lot of people have been really into it. And I can totally see a hybrid and moving forward, like if there’s a time that we can all get back into the studio, probably having a laptop running in that front center spot instead of a mat would kind of make sense because there are a lot of people that have found out, you know, what, I’m more likely to go to yoga. [00:07:50] If I don’t have to go anywhere. [00:07:51]Eric: [00:07:51] Right. And I don’t have to sweat in front of people or drive or, yeah, it’s actually, I was. [00:07:57] Brett: [00:07:57] mute anytime I want to. [00:07:59] Eric: [00:07:59] That’s [00:08:00] right. I had joke brewing in my head about, you know, it wouldn’t be a stretch to, for your girlfriend to do that. Yeah. Uh, that, by the way, yeah. Yeah. That’s the same humor I use on the pulpit with the same reactions, by the way. [00:08:13] I think it was David Sparks who recently wrote in his book either it was in his blog or his newsletter that, you know, if, if you. Consider an average commute of 30 minutes a day. And you’re not commuting now again, hopefully this will not last a year, but if you add up all that time, that one would normally be in the car, it’s like six weeks worth of time or something. [00:08:33] And so, you know, I feel like in some ways it’s easier to be productive. [00:08:40]Brett: [00:08:40] welcome to my world. [00:08:42] Eric: [00:08:42] Yeah, that’s right. [00:08:43]Brett: [00:08:43] Okay. So I have a question about, Jewish sermons. I grew up. I grew up in the, in the, uh, Baptist slash evangelical free version of Christianity. And I’m very familiar with those [00:09:00] sermons, but I’ve never heard a Jewish sermon. Do you know if you were to try to quantify or qualify the differences, how would you say a Jewish sermon differs from, uh, an evangelical Christian sermon? [00:09:16] Eric: [00:09:16] What my, my first response is because we’re on zoom, Brett. You’re more than welcome to come onto our service. [00:09:21]Brett: [00:09:21] My curiosity is endless. I might be willing to do [00:09:25] Eric: [00:09:25] I know that’s one of the things I love about you. Um, You know, I having not heard a tremendous amount of evangelical sermons and with, of course, the caveat that, you know, every rabbi is different, let alone every kind of denominational and every denomination and theological bent. I think one difference is especially true. [00:09:47] Um, for me personally, and I think reformed Judaism is, and this is may sound counterintuitive at first, is that. We are not necessarily as tied to the [00:10:00] text. And the reason that that’s counterintuitive is because, um, in Judaism every week corresponds to a specific Torah portion. Um, so the Torah is the, what we call the five books of Moses. [00:10:13] Christians would call the first five books of the old Testament Genesis through Deuteronomy. [00:10:17] Brett: [00:10:17] numbers and Deuteronomy. [00:10:19] Eric: [00:10:19] Perfect. You could pass fourth grade Hebrew school. Um, And each week is devoted to a few chapters and they mostly go in order. So, um, you know, we start with Genesis around October at a holiday called SIM Torah, which literally means the happiness of Torah. [00:10:38] And then we end the Torah also on that Hallot holiday and there’s a symbolism of ending. And then beginning again. But needless to say every week has its own portion. And of course every portion has its own unique stories or laws or rituals. So in some ways it’s very tied to the text. Um, but in reformed Judaism, one of the things that I know I do and my colleagues do is we will [00:11:00] very often take something that’s happening. [00:11:03] So, you know, recently coronavirus racism, you know, immigration, perhaps gun control and not necessarily political, but things that are pertinent in people’s minds and kind of use the Torah portion as a buttress or as a foundation for, kind of, an analysis or an expos a of this, that theme. [00:11:27] And so it’s not necessarily about the tour portion per se. Although sometimes I do give those kinds of sermons where, you know, I’ll talk about how, you know, everyone knows, or most people will be familiar with Adam and Eve eight from the fruit of the garden. And then Adam knew Adam was naked in the garden, and God said, said, Adam, where are you? [00:11:47] And Adam says, here I am. And so there’s this whole, what we call exit Jesus about. Why would God ask, where are you if God is omnipotent and knows exactly where Adam is. So that’s the kind of like delving [00:12:00] into the text sermon. And I sometimes give those a but more often than not it’s, you know, what does this speak to our current reality? [00:12:09] How has this Torah portion of relevant to today, and I’m not suggesting that evangelical sermons don’t do that. but yeah, it’s certainly a priority me, for me. The other thing, cause I realized I didn’t really answer your question. I think this might is I don’t often and certainly my colleagues and you know, there’s certainly a, what do you call it? [00:12:31] A self selection here. But when I give a sermon, even if it’s a political sermon and I’m kind of angry or hot under the collar, which is not my bent politically stuff is not like kind of my go to, but occasionally I think it’s both important and necessary is even when I do that, I am not Elling my congregants to necessarily do anything. [00:12:52] I might suggest something. I might say that Jewish laws. Tell says this or that, but there’s no, like [00:13:00] if you don’t do this, you are, you know, going to whatever the Jewish equivalent of hell is or something like that. So that might be a big difference. [00:13:08] Brett: [00:13:08] Okay. So just to clarify, I guess, What you describe as basically that’s the formula for an evangelical sermon as well to, uh, to take a bit of scripture and interpret it in the context of modern day. And they take a lot of liberties with the interpretation. and I don’t know if it’s easier to, to interpret and contextualize old Testament or new Testament, but they definitely take the most Liberty with the old Testament. [00:13:37] Uh, deciding what things mean. And like Judaism has a, uh, what’s the big book other than the Torah. [00:13:46]Eric: [00:13:46] So we, we use the word, the Bible, but in Hebrew it’s Tunnah, which is an acronym. For Torah, uh, Nivi IEM, which are the profits and then , which are which writings. And so all of [00:14:00] those put together is mostly what Christians will consider the old Testament. There’s some, um, order differences in some of the books, but it’s basically, so, you know, things like Psalms Esther, laminations, all of those are part of our Bible, but the Torah, which is a subset of the Bible is the most important. [00:14:18] Brett: [00:14:18] but there’s a, there’s like an encyclopedia that is hundreds of years of writing by [00:14:25] Eric: [00:14:25] The Talmud [00:14:25] Brett: [00:14:25] Talmid that’s it? Um, I feel like you guys have a more, um, kind of, uh, academic approach to interpreting, and I know that the Talmud is, uh, it’s liquid, right? Like it’s fluid. It’s added to and [00:14:44] Eric: [00:14:44] It not anymore, but in a, in a metaphorical way. Yes. [00:14:48] Brett: [00:14:48] Okay. [00:14:49] Eric: [00:14:49] In that, in that there is, there are still discussions happening today over what does this page of Tom would mean? What w how do we live this law today and [00:15:00] that sort of questioning. [00:15:01] Brett: [00:15:01] yeah. So I guess what I’m saying is I feel like your sermons are the same. Yeah, I don’t mean to use formula in a derogatory sentence, but it’s kind of the same composition, uh, but probably a different way of interpreting [00:15:17]Eric: [00:15:17] Yeah, you, I think you might’ve said that first of all, much shorter than I did in much as well, because in truth is, um, It’s probably not the format. That’s different as much as the, you know, the underlying theology and philosophy of beliefs. Um, and you know, reform Judaism in contrast to evangelical Christianity is very flexible. [00:15:44] There, there are very few things, if any, I mean, they’d have to be illegal, like according to, uh, you know, are secular laws illegal. There’s nothing that a congregate or I can or can’t do that would, you know, cause them to be quote unquote kicked [00:16:00] out or, you know, be labeled a bad Jew or something like that. [00:16:03] Something like that. Um, you know, there, there are certainly ways to be more committed and ways to be more active. Um, but reform Judaism’s, um, prime motto, uh, is choice through knowledge, um, both for good and bad. I mean, there’s definitely a critique to that as well, but the, the idea is that each reformed you has both the right and responsibility for him or herself to decide. [00:16:31] What they are going to follow and buy also what they’re not going to follow. And so there’s no fire and brimstone, th that would be my answer. There’s very little fire and brimstone in my sermons. [00:16:43] Brett: [00:16:43] sure. And so in, in the Baptist church, there is a lot of firearm, brimstone, a lot of black and white. This will send you to hell this won’t, um, in the evangelical free church. In my experience, it’s a lot more of the guy won’t be [00:17:00] mad. He’ll just be disappointed. Kind of like guilting you into [00:17:03] Eric: [00:17:03] like a parent. Oh, that’s the worst. [00:17:05]Brett: [00:17:05] Um, just, uh, strongly suggesting things without outright. Although, I mean, there are things like they get very firearm brimstone over hot button topics like abortion. Um, And to some extent, homosexuality, that they, they do take a very strong stand on [00:17:25] Eric: [00:17:25] And by the way, if I’m being, you know, I think it’s important to be intellectually honest. I mean, reform Judaism takes a very strong stance, certainly on homosexuality. It just happens to be the opposite stance. But it is a strong stance. So, and so that’s where I revise my state. You know, of that, you know, the, the, the format of what we talk about is probably the same. [00:17:46] It’s just the actual content. That’s different. [00:17:49]Brett: [00:17:49] All right. Well that answers some questions for me. I may have to attend a sermon just to see what what’s it called? You go to synagogue. [00:17:58] Eric: [00:17:58] Yes. Go to synagogue, [00:18:00] Shabbat service, temple. [00:18:01] Brett: [00:18:01] Yeah. I might have to show up just to find out what’s going on. [00:18:05]Eric: [00:18:05] Please do [00:18:06] Brett: [00:18:06] An atheist in your midst. [00:18:08]Eric: [00:18:08] Oh, by the way. And I think you and I have talked offline about this is, um, it’s again, counterintuitive, possibly, but there are many Jews and many active, knowledgeable Jews who. Consider themselves atheist and, you know, and thought deeply about it. lots of people, and I know you also have thought deeply about it cause you and I have talked about this. [00:18:33]you know, I, I find that sometimes people call themselves atheist and they’re just, and haven’t necessarily. Done research on what that means or the history of God or the history of eighth is atheism and or doubts and that sort of thing. And, you know, Judaism is interesting in that. I don’t think the Venn diagram of Jews and God believers, or God fearers [00:19:00] would be a Jewish way to put it. [00:19:02] Like the, all of God. The fear of God is an important concept in Judaism. Um, It’s more about all than fear. Um, those are not a one to one ratio. That one can be absolutely committed to Judaism without necessarily believing in God, [00:19:19]Brett: [00:19:19] right. That is, [00:19:21] Eric: [00:19:21] by the way. I’m not trying to convert you. I just want to be very clear. [00:19:24]Brett: [00:19:24] if I were, if I were going to convert to anything, uh, based on what I do know, Judaism sounds like a, a decent fit for my sensibilities. Um, all right. So I want to talk about music now. [00:19:39]Eric: [00:19:39] There’s also a good Venn diagram intersection of those two, also Judaism and music, but, uh, yeah. [00:19:46] Brett: [00:19:46] specifically want to talk about klezmer where there is a strong intersection. Um, T can you define what klezmer music is? [00:19:56]Eric: [00:19:56] Oh, I wish, uh, our bass player, Dan was here [00:20:00] with me. So klezmer music is, uh, for those of you who are musical it’s in a minor key, or lots of it is in a minor key. It’s very similar to music. That’s classified sometimes as gypsy music, um, Lots of it is incredibly danceable, but, uh, there are also klezmer tunes that are more soulful and slow. [00:20:23] Um, you know, it, it’s sometimes called Jewish music and our bass player. Who’s the founder of our band, Dan Horwitz, um, once talked about how it, it combines the joy and the sadness of life at the same time. And, and that is a fundamentally Jewish concept. Um, and so, uh, you know, I mean, a lot of people, if they’ve ever been to a Jewish wedding or bar or bat mitzvah might know, you know, having a Gila and that is crazy, but, um, that would be like saying, um, gosh, I can’t think of an example. [00:20:58] I mean, it’s kind [00:21:00] of like go to stereotypical example, but it’s a large body of music with a lot of variety. A lot of it is hard to play, especially because it’s fast and there’s a lot of unison things. And so for us, we have nine people in our band. And so if I’m playing, you know, me, the clarinet is the violinist. [00:21:19] Um, and maybe the guitarist are playing the same complex melody line. Um, and, and so it has that, that piece to it also. [00:21:28] Brett: [00:21:28] alright. So your band is klezmer, local 42, right. [00:21:32] Eric: [00:21:32] Yes. [00:21:33] Brett: [00:21:33] And how many people did you say were in it? [00:21:35] Eric: [00:21:35] I believe there are nine, we’re always changing, but I think there’s not [00:21:39] Brett: [00:21:39] And what do you play? [00:21:41] Eric: [00:21:41] a saxophone and a little bit of, uh, vocals. I mean, we all do vocals. Um, but saxophone [00:21:48] Brett: [00:21:48] So how many instruments do you play, [00:21:50]Eric: [00:21:50] well play or play well, cause those are very [00:21:53] Brett: [00:21:53] play? What, what do you, what do you, what, what, what can you find your way around? Done? [00:21:56] Eric: [00:21:56] Yeah, so a saxophone [00:22:00] keyboard guitar, and a little bit of blues harmonica. [00:22:04] Brett: [00:22:04] Wow. Alright. Does to saxophone, Trent, like I played Viola. Uh, I started on cello. I played Viola. Uh, in chamber orchestra and I can find my way around any of the orchestral string instruments. Um, and I also play guitar, which means I could find my way around a base, even if I’m not the best at it. Um, just saxophone. [00:22:29] Do those skills translate to other instruments? [00:22:32] Eric: [00:22:32] I mean only in the sense of kind of understanding music theory and things like that. The fingerings of saxophone are similar to flute and clarinet, and I’m actually. Embarrassingly. One of the only people I know who plays the saxophone that doesn’t know how to play a flute or clarinet. [00:22:48] Brett: [00:22:48] all right. [00:22:49] Eric: [00:22:49] Um, but I have an electronic wind instrument in iwi. [00:22:53] It’s called that. Um, I played it in the band once, um, where, you know, it’s [00:23:00] basically a mini capable synth. And so you it’s saxophone fingerings, but you can get other sounds out of it. And so I’ve used it to have a mute trumpet solo in a song I’ve used it to make a clarinet sound. Um, but 99% of the time I’m playing my Alto sax from high school, [00:23:17]Brett: [00:23:17] Cool. So I found a klezmer, a local 42 is on Spotify and I had a really good time listening [00:23:24] Eric: [00:23:24] Apple music. Also, if I can put it into the [00:23:26] Brett: [00:23:26] Yeah, for sure. I, uh, I, I have always had an affinity for that particular sound. And for me, it’s, it’s manifested more in like a punk gypsy or gypsy punk, like Gogol bordello [00:23:41] Eric: [00:23:41] I was just going to ask you to go, go bordello. Yeah. [00:23:43] Brett: [00:23:43] love it. I love it. And I like, I’ve never gotten to see Gogol bordello alive. [00:23:49] Eric: [00:23:49] Oh, that’s if you can, it is a must. [00:23:51]Brett: [00:23:51] I don’t go out for live shows much anymore, but I would go out for that one. I would go [00:23:56] Eric: [00:23:56] a lot of, we’re a lot of masks. [00:23:58] Brett: [00:23:58] go out to see your band too. [00:24:00] I think [00:24:00] Eric: [00:24:00] I would love that we actually, so last August, it’s almost a year ago now we recorded our second album and it’s ready to be put out, but we want to do, or we wanted to do a live kind of album release. Um, but that looked like it may not happen. And it may just release on Spotify and Apple music. [00:24:18] We’re still trying to figure that out. [00:24:19]Brett: [00:24:19] Is a lot of klezmer in three, four waltz style. [00:24:24]Eric: [00:24:24] Um, some of it, but I wouldn’t say a lot of it. There’s a lot. That’s four, four. And then sometimes what happens again, you know, for people who are musical, there’s a lot of double time at halftime. And so the temple will stay the same, but you’ll, you’ll either speed it up or slow it down. Um, yeah. And I, and I think our first album, a fear of a Yiddish planet, um, it gives a good sentence. [00:24:49]Of klezmer music. We also have songs in there that are not klezmer. We recorded a few. Um, we have a very kind of international band, which, which I love. And so I think we have [00:25:00] five different languages represented on our, on our record, if I’m not mistaken. Um, and, uh, The, the other thing, this is more about our band than klezmer is, um, kind of taking the themes of what we love about music, which is, you know, collaboration and friendship and, and molding them, um, with Jewish ideas. [00:25:23] And by the way, in our nine person band, I think three of us are Jewish. So this is not a Jewish band, but it is Jewish music, which is, which is interesting. [00:25:33] Brett: [00:25:33] Yeah, that is, um, what, uh, on a, on a. One of your bands, albums. What’s the ratio of standards to originals. [00:25:42]Eric: [00:25:42] I think it’s. Uh, I mean, it’s probably about half, you know, I, I know we delved into the copyright issue and so we, you know, anything standard is obviously public domain. Um, but we do have a good number of originals and those, some of those tend to be ms. Again, it’s just [00:26:00] about us. Not necessarily klezmer music is about who we are. [00:26:04] And so we have a song called Hebrew school, which is not klezmer at all. It’s kind of a, I don’t know what. I described it on it’s on the record, which anyone can stream it. It’s just a funny, [00:26:15] Brett: [00:26:15] that song before we got on [00:26:16] Eric: [00:26:16] yeah. A funny song about Hebrew school that anyone who ever went to Hebrew school or church, or, you know, something akin to that I think can, can appreciate, um, there’s also a pirate song done in the style of klezmer. [00:26:31] Um, there’s a French song. That’s almost like a lullaby. So, you know, w our band is incredibly musically, gifted myself, not withstanding. I am probably one of the weaker musicians in our band. We have some incredibly talented people in it. And, um, you know, just speaking personally for a second, it, for me that. [00:26:55] Not only, I mean, anyone who’s in a band, of course it adds to your life and it’s a passion and you’re [00:27:00] learning, but it’s a great counterpoint for me of, you know, kind of being on the bimah delivering a sermon, requires one kind of energy and, um, you know, mindset. Whereas being on stage dancing, like a crazy person and playing these songs is another one, but they’re both part and parcel of the same thing for me. [00:27:20]Brett: [00:27:20] A spirituality of sorts. [00:27:23] Eric: [00:27:23] Yeah, absolutely. [00:27:24] Brett: [00:27:24] Yeah. Cool. Do you listen to much poker or I shouldn’t. Let me ask that again. Cause I know you don’t regularly listen to poker, but have you listened to much poker? [00:27:33] Eric: [00:27:33] I have, but sadly the first image in my mind was weird Al Yankovic, but no, I have not listened. Um, although I, I it’s fine. I mean, um, I, I wouldn’t say I’m a kind of sore, but you know, if it was on, I mean, I would tap my foot and kind of shake my head back and forth. [00:27:51] Brett: [00:27:51] Yeah, I see parallels between Poka and klezmer. Um, like I grew up in, uh, Minnesota [00:28:00] and Michigan mostly. And, uh, in Minnesota here, there is, uh, a fairly vibrant polka scene. And I’ve been to square dances and had a surprisingly good time at square dances with [00:28:13] Eric: [00:28:13] Oh, I love square dances. Yeah. So fun. [00:28:17] Brett: [00:28:17] I did not expect to enjoy it. [00:28:19] I have, my parents had one for their, uh, their, their anniversary. I think it was there. I don’t even know. I would be embarrassed to guess wrong how many years it was, but, um, but they, my mom really wanted to have a square dance cause that’s how they met and yeah, I had a really good time. [00:28:34] Eric: [00:28:34] Oh, that’s so cool. I, I, I always wanted to be kind of one of the callers. I think that’s just so fun. [00:28:40] Brett: [00:28:40] What are, what, what are the standard, uh, dances for klezmer music? [00:28:44]Eric: [00:28:44] So w there’s a, there’s a term called freakish, which is not a, um, it’s not a song, but it’s when you take a couple of songs and you either play them in the same key or in relative keys. And so you go one [00:29:00] after another. And so again, comparing to what people know of Hava, Nagila, that dance was called a Hora. [00:29:05]When you kind of just are in a circle and I mean it’s and necessarily hugely coordinated, but, you know, just for neck movement and things like that. So we’ll take five or six songs, put them together with, with some, maybe some jump fills in between, and you could have like a 30 minute webinar call, a free gift set, and that’s super popular during a wedding. [00:29:26] That’s what my wife and I did during our wedding. Um, and you could put standard songs in there. You could, you know, do your own thing. You could. Kind of sing lie, lie lies. As long as the music kind of fits. Um, I one of the songs that is certainly cut. It’s the first song I learned with the band. I think it’s one of the songs we play at every concert we have partially because we only know like 20 songs, but also, um, it is very popular. [00:29:53] A Durer, hazer Bulger. I want to say it’s true. One of our first album, it’s either one or two. Um, and [00:30:00] that really is, is a good. Overview of klezmer music, fast frenetic, danceable, um, a milliliter line. That’s a little bit complex with a few people playing at once some solos. Um, you’ll hear that kind of minor key. [00:30:17] Um, there is something there’s a scale. Uh, I don’t know if it’s called the gypsy scale or, you know, it’s, I always forget those, you know, like, um, liggers you probably know these as a guitar mixed collodion and all those scales. There is one specific to our kind of music. I want to say it as a raised sixth, but don’t quote me on that along with the minor third, definitely the minor third. [00:30:40] Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I’m not sure if that answers your question. [00:30:46]Brett: [00:30:46] Yeah, it does. Um, all right. So onto part, the third, which is tech, so I know you’re a big Apple guy. [00:30:55]Eric: [00:30:55] Yes. [00:30:56] Brett: [00:30:56] Would you say, uh, for your work in your [00:31:00] music, you’re more of a Mac or an iOS guy, or is it about equal. [00:31:04]Eric: [00:31:04] Um, I’m probably more of a Mac guy. Um, But I have a lot of apps on my iPad, um, to make music with and that I can connect keyboards to and microphones. And I haven’t, well, I haven’t used any of it the last nine weeks, but, um, but I imagine that I will use the iPad stuff more simply because it’s portable. If I have, you know, 20 minutes here or there, I can noodle around, make a keyboard riff and record it. [00:31:37] Whereas. Kind of my studio downstairs, where we’re recording from, that was kind of more of a, you know, I need a few hours of quiet. I need the lights just right. The air conditioning, whereas, you know, the iPad, I can just kind of pick it up and do it [00:31:51] Brett: [00:31:51] Yeah. What about for, uh, preparing sermons? Is that mostly on your Mac? [00:31:55]Eric: [00:31:55] now. That’s what I mean, mostly iPad or my Mac book. So, [00:32:00] you know, being portable sitting well, w the way I would use to do it is I would sit in a coffee shop and write, or in my office, um, But yeah, that’s mostly portable, [00:32:08] Brett: [00:32:08] what apps do you use to write? [00:32:10]Eric: [00:32:10] uh, changes all the time. So, uh, my new workflow that I’ve been touring with is, um, writing sermons. [00:32:19] The actual writing is in Ulysses. And then, um, I will export from Ulysses to my, um, My blog, my webpage, and then I’ll move it from once it’s published, I will move it from Ulysses into a workspace of drafts that is tagged as kind of a sermon archived workspace. So if I want to look up a sermon, I wrote, I delivered five years ago, you know, I can do that fairly easily [00:32:48] [00:32:48] but, but drafts is unbelievable. I’ve started using, um, to go down a real geeky rabbit hole. Um, And I know I talked to you about this. I, um, I’ve been listening to automators at [00:33:00] another David Sparks podcast, along with Rosemary orchard or charter or orchard. Yeah. Um, and then it is, it is you, Oh, I never thought of that. [00:33:10] Rose orchard. That’s good. Yeah. Um, and I threw kind of a bunch of digging you. Using OmniFocus I discovered on this, a video she made that is incorrect, incredibly easy to watch and understand doing something that I think is relatively complex, which is, you know, for those of us in work or any situation where we have a project that’s repeated. [00:33:35]It w I can basically create an OmniFocus project now where I say, okay, so I’ll give a specific example. I’m not sorry to be morbid, but when someone dies, for example, I want to contact the family a week after they’ve experienced the death 30 days after they’ve experienced the death. And then 11 months after, because around a year, there’s a, there’s a following ceremony called an unveiling. [00:33:59] And so [00:34:00] I now in, in drafts, Could make a template project and then using this screw, this script that Rosemary has easily, I could, I could. And you, the link to this video bread, if you want for the show notes, um, you know, I put it in that’s and then I export it from draft to Omni focus. And then depending on what kind of smart. [00:34:23] I don’t know if they’re called smart tags. There’s probably a term for this, but it’ll ask me then, you know, get name of family member and I’ll put the name and, and it’ll say, get knee, get date of death. Right. Because that’s in kind of its own tag also. And then it will autopopulate for, you know, all those things I want to do. [00:34:42] And so not only does it save me time. Um, but it also makes sure that, you know, I’m contacting people when they, when they should be contacted. Um, and things like that have just been amazing, really helpful. And I’ve been kind of a, does the second time this week that I’ve talked about that particular workflow, [00:35:00] because Hey, like any clergy member in particular, who does these kinds of repeated things that are multi-step processes can, can use this. [00:35:08]Brett: [00:35:08] All right. I’ll add Omni focus to our show notes too. Um, so you talked a lot about, or you said you do a lot with the iOS in music. What are some of your favorite apps there? [00:35:21]Eric: [00:35:21] So, um, for guitar there’s so many and, um, w one that’s a little more unique that I’ve been playing with a little bit. It’s called a Roxanne, R O. X S Y N T H Roxanne. Um, I believe the publisher is fierce in VR syn. They make a bunch of good apps, but what this does in particular, And if I am screwing up the name and spelling, I’ll have that, I’ll get that link to you too, Brett. [00:35:49] Um, it basically turns your guitar into a synthesizer. And so there are many phenomenal, um, and you and I have talked about this Brett, uh, [00:36:00] apps that basically serve as, um, You know, stop pedals and amp simulators. This is not that this is, it turns your guitar signal into a synthesizer where, you know, you can play with sine waves and oscillators. [00:36:15] Um, and it’s just really fun. Um, and you get to crazy sounds out of it. That’s in some ways, some, nothing like a guitar. Um, if you do want a great guitar SIM, I really like tone stack. Um, that might be by the same company, actually. I think it is. Almost positive that it is. Um, so those are some fun ones. And then, um, keyboard ones there, gosh, there’s too many. [00:36:40] There’s too many to mention there they’re just so much, many phenomenal and affordable. Some are less than $10 for these apps that you could sync weeks into and still not kind of, you know, get everything, everything out of it. [00:36:55]Brett: [00:36:55] Yeah, for sure. Um, I have so many cent apps that [00:37:00] I’ve never made. Great use of, uh, as far as working into like my logic pro workflow. Cause I’ve never audio kit makes some great stuff that I’ve never really hooked into my keyboard to actually play. Are not on the iPad to actually use as a software instrument. [00:37:21] And that I’ve I’ve yet to do. Have you accomplished that? [00:37:25]Eric: [00:37:25] Well, I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but I’ll use, so I use Ableton live, which is similar to logic. I’ve never used logic. And part of me is sad about that, but it’s like, I mean, you know what, learning these things are like, it’s a whole language. And so once you’re in one, you’re kind of in it, um, where I’ll have my, so my iPad has an audio interface that connects to my computer. [00:37:47] So if I want to. Record something. If I want to record an iPad app into Ableton live, I can do that. Um, so the iPad will record the middy and then my main [00:38:00] computer Ableton live we’ll record it as audio. [00:38:02] Brett: [00:38:02] you have it hooked into a mini keyboard. What is this, uh, interface you’re using? [00:38:07]Eric: [00:38:07] Um, so I have a, uh, PreSonus or, uh, Scarlet, uh, my, my real, when I say real, the one that, um, Goes from my iMac is the [00:38:19]Yeah. It’s generation two. It’s actually the one I think I wanted to sell you bread. Um, cause th there’s a third generation of it now. Um, and then my, my, or, sorry, my iPad uses a complete audio six that I’ve had, I think for about 10 years now, which does the job just fine. And so [00:38:37] Brett: [00:38:37] a C? Yeah, that’s what I [00:38:40] Eric: [00:38:40] Made by native instruments. And then, so I can plug some XLRs in there and it has a middy port in there also. And so that goes out into a mixer that then feeds into my main interface, which goes into the computer. [00:38:56] Brett: [00:38:56] what kind of mixer do you have? [00:38:58]Eric: [00:38:58] I have. So I, [00:39:00] my main one is a Yamaha. I have to stand up and look at the model number M G 16. [00:39:06] Brett: [00:39:06] All right. I assume that has 16 channels. [00:39:09]Eric: [00:39:09] It does, but they’re not all the same. So some of them are, some of them are mano. Only some of them are designed more for, um, for an instrument input as opposed to a microphone input. But, uh, yeah. Yeah. And I like it cause it has different zones and there’s a lot of flexibility with routing. [00:39:29] Brett: [00:39:29] do you do any recording for the band? [00:39:31]Eric: [00:39:31] I don’t, which makes me sad. I mean, so, you know, what I joke about is it’s less of a studio and more of like a lab. I call it a music lab because I mean, I do have some microphones and pop filters, but it’s much more easily used for people playing electronic instruments. [00:39:51] Brett: [00:39:51] Sure [00:39:52] Eric: [00:39:52] So, you know, if I have a few keyboard wrists over, I have a chaos pad, uh, you know what that is? [00:39:58]Yeah, [00:39:58] Brett: [00:39:58] Way back, way back [00:40:00] from the nineties. I know what a [00:40:01] Eric: [00:40:01] I know. And they still haven’t updated them either because they’re good enough or because cork has moved on. But, um, and I do have a bunch of guitars that I could make up to amps, but that’s, that’s not my skill set, you know? Like where do you put the microphones next to the amps? That sort of thing. [00:40:17] Whereas, I mean, that’s what makes middy so easy is it’s just like, there’s no signal loss. It goes into your computer. [00:40:22]Brett: [00:40:22] Yeah, I haven’t done miking for years. It was not a skill I ever got really good at. I knew how to like off center a Mike on an amp, but not how to actually tune it, to get the best sound out of it. [00:40:35] Eric: [00:40:35] And it takes so long. I mean, I, I am not as anyone who knows me will tell you I am not the most patient person in the world. And when we recorded our second album, I kind of forgot. Um, have you ever been in a studio, Brett, like recording something? [00:40:51] Brett: [00:40:51] Oh, yes. [00:40:52] Eric: [00:40:52] It’s just like you’re sitting there for two hours before you even play a note because you know, [00:40:58] Brett: [00:40:58] that made studio time bearable [00:41:00] for me when I was in bands was heroin. [00:41:02]Eric: [00:41:02] that is [00:41:03] Brett: [00:41:03] I am not a person cause we would be in there for up to 48 hours. And I’m not a person who can sit and wait or even, even if I’m actively participating, doing the same thing for more than an hour, it gets boring for me. I have ADHD. I get bored easily. Yes. Studios can be horrible for me. [00:41:23] Eric: [00:41:23] Yeah. I mean, it’s a good thing. Our band mostly likes each other. Cause we were nine people kind of grouped up in this, in this basement. Um, But yeah. You know, I just had this feeling. I having not done it before, it was just like, Oh, we’re just going to play our songs. But, you know, I should know better both as someone who does some recording and just kind of, you know, you want to record the best version of yourself. [00:41:44] And when someone misses a note, which when there’s nine people, the odds of that are just more and more. [00:41:50] Brett: [00:41:50] When, when, when a band like klezmer, local 42 records, uh, how much multi tracking do you do and how much do you play together? [00:41:58]Eric: [00:41:58] It’s [00:42:00] mostly all together, actually. Um, I mean, part of it is just who we are as a band and you know, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna pay for the kind of studio time or engineer or anything like that. It’s also not who we are. You know, I I’ve joked with the band before that, what we lack in kind of, um, You know, the perfectionist tight timing and everything we make up for in, in fun and energy. [00:42:25] That’s not to say by the way that we don’t have timing. I mean, but when you hear our album, I mean, you can hear that it’s not perfectly on the click track, every single note. Um, but, uh, what, what is multi-track is sometimes the drums vocals and then certainly harmony vocals. So like that song Hebrew school that you listened to, that was multi-track a little bit, um, But the, but most parts is just we’ll play through the whole song. [00:42:51] We’ll decide if we like it or not. And, um, if not, we’ll record it again. Sometimes we’ll record too. Even if we did like it. Um, but the other issue is for [00:43:00] woodwind players, myself and the clarinetist. Um, you know, we can’t yeah. Played for that long because my mouth just feels like, I feel like Georgia or beings when he was like, you know, when he gets shocked and I’m fair to medicine, he said, he just like, his mouth is all slacked out and he can’t move. [00:43:15] Like, that’s what it’s like after playing for a while. So, you know, we don’t want to do a million takes. [00:43:21] Brett: [00:43:21] have you ever watched, uh, an interview with, uh, Billie Eilish on her recording process with her brother? [00:43:27]Eric: [00:43:27] No, but I think I read something about this. Um, if you can send me a link or I’ll remind myself to, to read that [00:43:35] Brett: [00:43:35] Yeah, well, I’ll find a, I watched a really good interview, uh, but her, uh, the, the vocals on bad guy, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard that song, [00:43:45] Eric: [00:43:45] I’ve heard the album, I don’t know the songs by name, but I mean, I’m, they’re, they’re incredible. [00:43:50] Brett: [00:43:50] she layers, uh, like at least five. Layers of vocals all perfectly sinked. So it almost [00:44:00] sounds like one weird effected voice. It’s it’s pretty cool. But if you’ve spent time in his studio, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll relate to the feeling of sitting and it’s just her and her brother in his room. Basically they recorded that entire album when we fall asleep, uh, just on like a Mac and. [00:44:22] In a bedroom it’s um, I’m a big fan. [00:44:25]Eric: [00:44:25] and then I look at all this stuff, I own all my plugins and it’s like, what? Wow. There really is something to be said for talent. [00:44:34]Brett: [00:44:34] Alright. So that brings us to the top three picks. Uh, as I’ve mentioned on the last couple of episodes, I. I burnt out coming up with three of my own. Every time I’ll throw one in here and there where it seems appropriate, but this is going to be about you and your top three picks. So what’s your first pick. [00:44:53]Eric: [00:44:53] So, uh, not particularly, um, I feel like a lot of people are talking about this, but, um, I [00:45:00] went for a walk with my son, Erin. Um, my wife was working and it was my day off. And so we went to the park, um, the botanical gardens here in Athens, Georgia, which are absolutely beautiful. And there were very few people around. [00:45:13] Um, and I was walking, uh, listening to the new Taylor Swift yeah. Record. And it was just this really nice kind of introspective, somewhat bittersweet, you know, I’m looking at my son. Yeah. And I’m thinking about, you know, what it means to have him in my life and then listening to this album that in some ways is about loss and heartbreak and kind of necessity algebra to a certain degree. [00:45:36] And there was just this kind of beautiful, um, It was just a really interesting feeling I had and I’ve, and I’m really, really digging that, that album. Um, you know, and, uh, I think someone else said this, it might’ve been, um, uh, Federico for TG that it doesn’t sound like an album that was produced in a home studio. [00:45:55]You know, that just kind of shadow dropped because of Corona. I mean, it’s [00:46:00] professionally done. The, the instrumentations are sparse, but, but it fits the music. [00:46:05] [00:46:05] I, one of her quotes, I may use an a, in one of my high holiday sermons. Um, I was walking with Erin in the crib and she’s saying this line and I just couldn’t stop thinking about it. And then I just plugged it in drafts. So I’d remember, remember to put it in my, uh, Sur on, so that’s one. [00:46:23] Brett: [00:46:23] wait, what, what was the quote? [00:46:25] Eric: [00:46:25] Oh, but if I say it, then, you know what, if congregants listen to it. I, I. [00:46:30] Brett: [00:46:30] this isn’t coming out until a couple weeks after we record. So you’ve got time. [00:46:34] Eric: [00:46:34] Uh, uh, mostly kidding it. I’m gonna probably get the exact quote wrong. I’ll have to look it up on Apple lyrics, but, um, it’s something like the best films of all time have not been made. And, um, without, you know, I know religion was our first topic, but, um, in the high holidays, what’s that? [00:46:54] Brett: [00:46:54] moved on. [00:46:55] Eric: [00:46:55] Yeah. Circle back. [00:46:57]Um, There’s this [00:47:00] very, um, fundamental idea during the holidays of returning. Um, like when we return the tourist to the Ark, we say, turn us, uh, God, you know, return us to days like in the past. And there’s this interesting thing about we’re moving on to new parts of ourselves, but we also asked to be returned. [00:47:18] And so this idea of, you know, the best films of all time have not been made, it’s this idea that the future. Not only will be different than the past and certainly in light of Corona. So, you know, it’s not that we’re going to get back to normal. We could actually get back to a better normal. And so the best parts of ourselves are still waiting to be discovered. [00:47:37] They’re not in the past. [00:47:39] Brett: [00:47:39] All right. Nice. All right. What’s number two. [00:47:42]Eric: [00:47:42] Number two is Duolingo. [00:47:45]Brett: [00:47:45] Yes. [00:47:46] Eric: [00:47:46] Not a new app by any stretch of the imagination. But, um, especially after my son’s been born, I’m a fan of things that make me feel productive that I can do in 10 or 15 minutes. And so, um, you know, about a year and a [00:48:00] half ago, I was, uh, so Duolingo is a language learning app. I think they have every language available, including Klingon. [00:48:06] I am not studying cling on, although it would be fun. Um, And uh, about a year and a half ago, I, I started doing Spanish. I got on a good streak. And then just, and, uh, I don’t know about a month ago. Uh, I decided I want it to start it up again and here or there, you know, 15 minutes here, 10 minutes there. I’m trying to do at least between three and five lessons a day and it’s working. [00:48:29] Um, you know, I guess I could say that I I’m hungry now. So, um, but, but that’s one of my pigs because I like things that, um, you know, I like learning new skills. I think learning a new language helps us think in different ways also. And so, and it’s fun, you know, it’s kind of a gamified experience. So, so that’s, that’s number two. [00:48:49] Brett: [00:48:49] I sat down with a, we’ll say almost legal copy of Rosetta, um, a few years back and tried to learn German [00:49:00] and, uh, failed. I failed at that, but I am curious about learning more languages. I [00:49:05] Eric: [00:49:05] Did you do it on a computer or on, on mobile. [00:49:08] Brett: [00:49:08] This was, this was prior to the invention of the iPhone. [00:49:12] Eric: [00:49:12] Oh, okay. So [00:49:13] Brett: [00:49:13] when I say a few years, a decade or so, um, but yeah, I don’t know, on a, on a computer. [00:49:20]It, yeah, like I got, I got a little ways into it, but not enough that I was actually able to put together my own sentences at which point I lost interest and was left with just some basic conjugation of common words. But, um, foster oven, my nail turn false grandma. [00:49:38]Eric: [00:49:38] I mean, that sounded good. [00:49:39] Brett: [00:49:39] It did. It means what did my parents go wrong? [00:49:42] And the only what did my parents do wrong? And the only reason I know that phrase is cause I had a tee shirt with that on it in high school. Oh, well, um, [00:49:51] Eric: [00:49:51] that. [00:49:52] Brett: [00:49:52] I will learn, I will learn another language someday. Uh, dual lingo actually sounds like a good solution because my attention span [00:50:00] is not good for hour long lessons. [00:50:03] Eric: [00:50:03] Right. And you know, it’s, I do pay for the yearly subscription just because I am, I feel like if I paid for it, I’ll actually use it more. But the free app has all of the features, just occasionally there’s an ad. And it’s not like the obnoxious apps that make you watch like a 30 minute video or anything. [00:50:20] It’s just like a little ad that pops up kind of interstitials. [00:50:24] Brett: [00:50:24] Cool. I can live with that. I can also, I, if I use something I pay for it. That’s it’s I don’t know if it’s a, uh, an ethic of mine, but I just prefer, it’s not a matter of hating ads. It’s a matter of choosing to support things that [00:50:41] Eric: [00:50:41] Yeah, that’s a positive way to put it. And as a developer, I’m sure you can appreciate that distinction. Also. [00:50:46] Brett: [00:50:46] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. All right. Number three. [00:50:49]Eric: [00:50:49] Number three is a, is a iPhone or iOS game I’ve been playing. Um, it’s called like slide it’s part of a Apple arcade. Um, so, you know, if you’re an [00:51:00] Apple or I feel like I’m like, uh, Phil Schiller before he took his new job, but you know, advertising all of these Apple things. Um, although I’m upset with Apple right now, because if it’s beef with Microsoft and the X cloud gaming, but that’s a whole nother show. [00:51:14] Um, so life slide is, it’s kind of one of these like Zen, like games where you fly this paper airplane around the music is really nice. It’s. Sounds delicious, um, with a pair of headphones and again, you could play it in five minute chunks and there’s all these is, and the stages are meant to correspond to the stages of life. [00:51:37] And so there’s this very kind of loosely, um, a loose metaphor about, um, the creation of life or the, you know, being born all the way to death and, and the graphics change in some ways to represent those different motifs. There is some challenge involved in that you’re the Plains of a health bar and you. [00:51:59] Uh, [00:52:00] gather these gems, which would let you upgrade the planes. Um, and you do kind of quote, unquote die and you have to start a stage over. Um, but there’s also this, I think it’s literally called Zen mode where you just fly through these beautiful graphics and you know, the sound of the plane when you catch the air. [00:52:16] Is this really kind of, I think it’s called AMS are, do you know what I’m talking about? Breath. The sounds, yeah. [00:52:23] Brett: [00:52:23] remember what it stands for. Or what [00:52:24] Eric: [00:52:24] Yeah, my wife and I were talking about this the other day. My wife’s a therapist. And so we were talking it. So it has those kind of relaxing sounds to it. And again, it can be played in very small chunks. [00:52:36]Brett: [00:52:36] I could get into that. I keep going back to threes. Like it hurts me. It’s like, I’ll play it at an Apple arcade game and I’ll either beat it or get bored with it. And then end up playing threes and it’s like still after all these years, it’s my go to game and it, it, it, aye. Aye. It’s me angry with myself that I can’t move on and find [00:52:58] Eric: [00:52:58] for not trying new things or. [00:53:00] [00:53:00] Brett: [00:53:00] Yeah. Like my top score is like 158,000 now. [00:53:04] Eric: [00:53:04] that’s my thing with threes is, I mean, it’s a B it’s an incredible game. And like, for so many reasons that have been talked about before, but like once I get a particularly high score, I don’t want to play again because [00:53:17] Brett: [00:53:17] I do. I just always, it’s an obsession for me. Oh, [00:53:21] Eric: [00:53:21] I saw letterbox had a recent app. You and I used to play that a [00:53:24] Brett: [00:53:24] I still play that with my girlfriend almost daily [00:53:28] Eric: [00:53:28] Okay. [00:53:28] Brett: [00:53:28] or [00:53:28] Eric: [00:53:28] we’ll get back to that. [00:53:30] Brett: [00:53:30] w wait. [00:53:31]Eric: [00:53:31] Oh yeah. Let her, let her press, let her box. This up movie is a movie collection app that yes, [00:53:37] Brett: [00:53:37] right. Yes. I really enjoy a game of letterpress for me. A turn takes like max two minutes because I just pick a word and go, uh, I I’ve discovered recently that it takes her like 20 minutes to find exactly [00:53:54] Eric: [00:53:54] I would like the optimal. [00:53:55] Brett: [00:53:55] Yeah. Like she puts way more effort into it than I do. So now I [00:54:00] understand why I’ll play a term real quick and then won’t get a response for a day because for her it’s like a time investment. Cause she sits and tries to like, she’ll find a word and then be like, no, I really want to use it. Is that why? So I have to start over and I just, I can’t imagine the patients that goes into that. [00:54:18] Eric: [00:54:18] right. Yeah. I would play it more like you or I do play it more like you. [00:54:22]Brett: [00:54:22] I’m okay with losing. I just like playing words. Um, all right, well, thank you, Eric. [00:54:29] Eric: [00:54:29] Thank you. Always be talking with you. [00:54:31] Brett: [00:54:31] you’ll have to, uh, I don’t even know what day, uh, uh, synagogue is on temple. What did you go to temple? [00:54:40]Eric: [00:54:40] Well, so the services are Friday evenings for Shabbat. So Friday after sunset is when Shabbat starts. [00:54:47]Brett: [00:54:47] Okay. Send me a, send me a zoom link. [00:54:49]Eric: [00:54:49] I will, I would love to, [00:54:51] Brett: [00:54:51] turn my video off and show up just to [00:54:53] Eric: [00:54:53] you don’t have to turn your video off [00:54:55]Brett: [00:54:55] Um, yeah, we’ll [00:54:57] Eric: [00:54:57] as long as you’re not wearing anything [00:55:00] offensive. [00:55:00] Brett: [00:55:00] I don’t wear offensive things. No. Yeah. Cool. Alright. Um, And, uh, send me a bunch of links for the show notes. And I would also, at some point it’s already happened for anyone listening, but I would like to cut in a little bit of klezmer, local 42, so people know what we’re talking about. [00:55:20] And, uh, so you get to pick a song and, and w we’ll put it in, in post. All right. Thanks again. [00:55:28]Eric: [00:55:28] Thank you, Brett. Stay healthy.

Greg Pierce, indie software developer and creator of Drafts for iOS and Mac, joins Brett to talk about software development, finding a sustainable pricing model, and some TV, film, and literary favorites. Drafts for iOS and Mac Marked Streaming Preview Searching in Drafts Tally Terminology WordNet Terminology for macOS Ax Man Surplus Amazon Echo Dot Top 3 Picks Reading Fiction Kindle Paperwhite Kindle Oasis Man in the High Castle Kindred N.K. Jemisin Ursula K. Le Guin Darcy 45m Uncle (Hulu) Life in Pieces Community Harold and Maude Shazam Palm Springs I am Not OK with This Transcript Greg and Brett [00:00:00] [00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:00] Alright, so this is our second try. Um, welcome back again, Greg. [00:00:07]Greg: [00:00:07] Thanks for having me again. [00:00:09] Brett: [00:00:09] I had a, I had a call recorder mishap. Last time we tried to do this and ended up, uh, curtailing our conversation so that we didn’t have to repeat ourselves right away again. Um, I’m, I’m glad we get a second opportunity to do this. Um, for people who don’t know. You are the creator of drafts, which is a, a note cap. [00:00:32] How would you a text capturing application? How would you, how would you describe drafts? [00:00:37]Greg: [00:00:37] The primary purpose of it, I think is to be a sort of Swiss army knife for texts, just a place to jot stuff down to, um, have it sync to all your devices and then to be able to manipulate it and send it to other places. [00:00:51]Brett: [00:00:51] Yeah. All right. So we will, we will be talking quite a bit about drafts as we go, but, uh, the last time you were on this show, Which [00:01:00] is so long ago that that it’s almost out of memory, but it was in January of 2014, which in March, that seemed like a long time ago. Now it seems like forever ago. [00:01:11]Greg: [00:01:11] It does time is a lot has changed since then. [00:01:16] Brett: [00:01:16] Yeah. Do you have, uh, do you have kids, [00:01:19]Greg: [00:01:19] I have three kids. Yeah. [00:01:21] Brett: [00:01:21] I’m curious, are they school age? [00:01:24]Greg: [00:01:24] Well, I’ve got twins that are 18 and are about to head off for their freshman year of college. And then I have a 13 year old who’s going into eighth grade. [00:01:34] Brett: [00:01:34] Oh, so you’re in the thick of the debate over whether school should open right now. [00:01:39] Greg: [00:01:39] Um, yeah, I, I am, we’re see both sides of it. As far as our middle schoolers, K through 12, we’re not ready to go back to school. And I don’t think that there’s any reason he’ll be going back to school for several months, at least. And, you know, until we see how things go, um, But we did decide to [00:02:00] let the college age kids go off to school. [00:02:02] And I feel like they’re both going to, you know, competitive elite universities that, uh, have a lot of, you know, Science on campus and are, have pretty good strategies in place to keep things under wraps and some ex some aspects, maybe the test case for what we should be doing nationally with a lot of proactive testing and quarantining and contact tracing and stuff that we should be doing much more broadly. [00:02:35] But they can actually enforce on a campus and hopefully keep things safe for them. [00:02:41] Brett: [00:02:41] I’m realizing that we really don’t know what we’re talking about, not you and I specifically, I’m not gonna, I, not that, not that I know what I’m talking about, but as a country, Like we think we have figured out how to contain this and we just think we’re not doing it. But then I look at States [00:03:00] like Georgia, that really, I haven’t had any mass mandates or are they in, they opened up pretty early and there are teas below one. [00:03:09] Now Michigan has had a mass mandate for a month and they’re not declining in cases. So I feel like everything’s kind of an experiment still at this point. [00:03:18]Greg: [00:03:18] Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true that, that, uh, you know, you look across the world and we try to take examples from other countries that have kept it under control or whatever, but yeah. They’ve all had different strategies in some way or another. There’s no one silver bullet to, to say that’s exactly what we should all do. [00:03:37] Brett: [00:03:37] Yeah. So I take kind of a, I’m very liberal politically, but I’m willing to say. That we have a lot to learn and, uh, and I’m not going to people that are willing to take their chances. Aren’t as crazy as, as they’re made to seem. I think there’s a certain amount of, everyone’s just giving [00:04:00] up anyway. [00:04:02] Greg: [00:04:02] Yeah, I think there’s a lot of that. I think that the. It depends on what circles you travel into the demographics, like anything else in this country, the demographics of the disease affect the way it’s getting treated as well. And I think there are a lot of people in the more sectors of our socioeconomic system that haven’t seen it affect them directly. [00:04:24] Um, you know, haven’t had a very close relative in the hospital because of it or whatever, and, uh, it’s harder for them to. You don’t take it seriously. I think. [00:04:35]Brett: [00:04:35] Anyway. So since 2014 back then you had, you had several applications. Tally was one that I really appreciated. Uh, our, are, are all of your applications still being maintained? Are you focusing mostly on drafts now? [00:04:52]Greg: [00:04:52] I’ve discontinued several apps that I would have had active then, or we’ve been working on. Then I still have [00:05:00] my dictionary app terminology and, and tally are both still in the store, but I’m not actively developing them. I’m just kind of doing a compatibility releases here and there to make sure they keep working. [00:05:12] I basically spend all my energy on drafts these days. [00:05:16] Brett: [00:05:16] Yeah. Well, and you did release, uh, the dictionary for terminology as a macOS dictionary. [00:05:23]Greg: [00:05:23] Right. I mean the original project that, the reason I did that project was I stumbled on word net, which is a open source semantic dictionary that I thought was really cool. And I started messing with it back when I was that kind of terminology came out in 2010, it was my first significant. IPhone iPad app. [00:05:43] And, uh, you know, I was just playing with ideas and manipulating that data set. Um, I had some experience with it. So since I was already doing a bunch of data prep on that, I decided to export it as a dictionary. You could use in the macro S [00:06:00] version as well. [00:06:00] Brett: [00:06:00] Yeah. So many of my own projects have started as a result of discovering. Something open source that I saw some crazy potential in. And, uh, just having the, having the data or, or in some cases, just the source code available sparks, uh, so many ideas for me. And I think, uh, I think it says a lot about open source culture in general, that that’s kind of the, the way, the way things begin. [00:06:31] Greg: [00:06:31] Yeah, it’s interesting. That word net project is something that came out of linguists, uh, in, in Princeton. And they had originally developed it more and it’s more used in applications like artificial intelligence and such to help with. Understanding relationships between words, not just provide definitions of words. [00:06:53] It’s very, you know, so terminology was well suited to being a writer’s dictionary where you weren’t [00:07:00] necessarily looking for what you get out of it, the source, you don’t want synonyms, but you might want. The kind of relationships that are in that data set, like more specific words or less specific words, um, or other related words like that. [00:07:15] Um, you know, it was something I got very interested in playing with and curious about it was fun to wrap that up in an app. [00:07:24] Brett: [00:07:24] so still available, but not being actively developed. [00:07:27] Greg: [00:07:27] Right, right. [00:07:29]Brett: [00:07:29] and you’ll keep tally going for a little while. [00:07:32] Greg: [00:07:32] I will, I’ve toyed with it. I, I really liked the app. It’s a simple little app and I keep telling myself I’m going to carve out time to update it, but I’ve been so busy with drafts. I haven’t, I kind of hope I’m hoping sometime early next year, I can free up some time and use rewriting tally as a better way to dive deep into Swift UI. [00:07:55] Um, You know, excuse to, uh, [00:08:00] really, uh, go deep on that, that, and see where I can use it moving forward. So hopefully next year it still works, though. It works for what it does. [00:08:08] Brett: [00:08:08] I don’t need it to do anything else. I just need it to continue functioning. It’s like for when I need an app, like when I’m counting anything, that’s going to. Uh, B uh, set of timed out such that I’ll forget where I was at, or I’m counting high enough that I’m going to forget where I was at. [00:08:29] Just having a clicker is, is all I need. And it’s perfect for that. [00:08:34] Greg: [00:08:34] I actually get a burst of sales and attention for the app over the course of the pandemic, because there was a number of people approaching me who were having to control. Crowd numbers, you know, like stores that were counting people when they came in and went out and stuff like that. It was interesting to see them looking for technical tools to keep up with that stuff. [00:08:58] Brett: [00:08:58] I, uh, I was at a [00:09:00] garage sale. No, I was at ax man in Minneapolis, uh, which is, uh, a surplus store, a lot of medical surplus and electronic surplus. And I got a door. It was like a, it was a laser beam kind of, or just a light beam. And every time the beam was broken, it would. Take a counter use that like supermarkets to measure foot traffic. And a, and I brought that home and I reread it so that instead of the little 12 bolt trigger to the counter, it would actually trigger an X, 10 switch. So I could make a, I could, instead of having a motion detector, I could actually have basically a trip wire for my home automation that, sorry, that was tangential. [00:09:44] I just, I think of these things now. And then. [00:09:46] Greg: [00:09:46] No absolutely. [00:09:47] Brett: [00:09:47] miss. I miss the old days of home automation when everything was very much MacGyvered [00:09:51]Greg: [00:09:51] Yeah, I don’t do much of anything with home automation, just because I don’t know. I think I toyed [00:10:00] with it a little in the early years and it just seemed like a frustration and I’m sure some of it’s gotten better, but I see enough people, you know, bitching on Twitter about, uh, the thing’s not working. [00:10:11] Right. Or it seems like you said more time fidgeting with it than you do benefiting from being able to. Tell tell your Dingus what to do. [00:10:19] Brett: [00:10:19] it’s, it’s, it’s far more the realm of people who are, who live alone because home automation is painful enough for one person, but when other people have to deal with your home automation, that’s where you get into trouble. Uh, nothing, nothing upsets people who live with you more than not knowing how to turn on the light in the bathroom. [00:10:41]Greg: [00:10:41] Yeah. Got good. Old switches, always [00:10:43] Brett: [00:10:43] or the light in the bathroom just suddenly going off on them with no explanation. [00:10:47]Greg: [00:10:47] I have a, I have two home pods and I basically, they’re just music players. Um, and my wife curses at them all the time because she just can’t get Siri to understand her. [00:11:00] And I don’t know if it’s just something about her voice or her accent. She seems to speak normally to it, to me, but it never understands her. [00:11:07] And I’m like, she will not enjoy, you know, and maybe, uh, Maybe the Amazon one would work better for her or something, but I don’t think she would enjoy being able to do that all through voice. [00:11:19] Brett: [00:11:19] My use of the Amazon one is primarily budgetary. Yeah. Um, but I do find she is. I don’t, I can’t remember the last time she misunderstood anything. I asked her and, uh, and she’s always, she’s prompt with the, uh, the information I need, uh, does pretty good job with home control devices. Yeah. I, I, if, yeah, if all else fails, I would say, get yourself a, a dot and, and see if she understands better. [00:11:48] Greg: [00:11:48] Yeah, I haven’t really voiced control is still weird for me too. I don’t use a. Use Siri that often for things, even with the home pods, I tend to just [00:12:00] start something on my phone and send it over there with airplay. I don’t talk, talk to it that often, except for, to turn up and down the volume when I’m like cooking and my hands are dirty or something. [00:12:11] Brett: [00:12:11] I love asking for music that’s for all of my, all of my assistant devices. I think the thing I use them for most often it’s Hey, play that song by so, and so it’s amazing to me to just be able to say that into the air and have the song play. I’m old enough to remember that that, that has always, that that has not always been a thing that has been far from a thing for a long time. [00:12:33]Greg: [00:12:33] Yeah, I still, I gave up on vinyl years ago, but I still think about the level of convenience that you basically, you put on music and you got 10 to 15 minutes of music before you had to get up and go flip the record or. [00:12:49] Brett: [00:12:49] do you miss the record scratch like the, that, that when you first dropped the needle, that little crackle before the song. [00:12:56]Greg: [00:12:56] Um, I don’t think I do. I do miss the [00:13:00] ritual of it. And I do miss the social aspects of records to some extent, you know, that was a. Big part of, a lot of my friendships was, was sharing music and stuff. And you know, you go over to a friend’s house now, and there’s not a shelf of records to flip through and talk about and, you know, [00:13:19] Brett: [00:13:19] I think, I think there’s room for an app that just adds. A crackle before every song it plays [00:13:26] Greg: [00:13:26] yeah. [00:13:26] Brett: [00:13:26] has no special music control or, or you can make it even a more obtuse music controller where you had to actually like drag the needle onto the song to get it, to start playing and you get the crackle, get that ritual back for people. [00:13:39] Greg: [00:13:39] Yeah, and it [00:13:40] Brett: [00:13:40] when you’re [00:13:41] Greg: [00:13:41] randomly every once in a while. Loops a half a second till you pick up your phone and shake it or something. [00:13:48] Brett: [00:13:48] when the song ends, it just plays the last, like five seconds over and over again. Um, yeah. So when you’re done, when you’re done working on drafts, that’s, uh, we can collaborate on that app. [00:13:59]Greg: [00:13:59] I [00:14:00] was thinking about, uh, Vinyl in general a lot lately, my son’s gotten it. One of my sons has gotten into vinyl quite a bit. And I took that time. I had a jukebox in my house growing up. My parents bought a old Seaberg jukebox, which was a very cool, fun novelty to have, but I, I sat down and I asked my parents and my sister to work on this too, but I tried to document everything we had in the jukebox and make a playlist of it for a. [00:14:30] You know, nostalgia’s sake and to be able to play that through something that added the noises of the things switching records and going back and forth would be fun. [00:14:39]Brett: [00:14:39] Um, okay. So the, the conversation is naturally moving towards drafts, obviously. Um, I would describe drafts as, uh, and I think you use it as a tagline at some point, but the home for text. Kind of like the place texts starts. [00:14:59] Greg: [00:14:59] Yeah, the [00:15:00] tagline I still use is where text starts. And that was, I mean, the original core concept of the app was to be that place, to jot down things, to not have to think about where it went. Um, just kind of have any time. You’ve got an idea you want to jot down, you just launch the app. It’s ready to type. [00:15:18] And a new in a new note and you jot it down and you can put it away. You can deal with it later, you know, I’m sure it was inspired by GTD stuff. Um, and all, and having a capture system. But a lot. I was finding, I needed a medic capture system because even if you had a task manager with an inbox, not everything went into a task manager, you know, some things were messages and some things were tweets and some things were destined to go in a journal or whatever. [00:15:47] And I just wanted one place to open it up and jot that stuff down. And I think most people, the vast majority of people who have really adopted drafts over the years, use it primarily for that. Um, that’s the [00:16:00] first purpose of it is to capture that stuff. And then, you know, the outcropping of that was to provide ways to do something with that once you captured it. [00:16:10] Brett: [00:16:10] Right. And the sensibility you added to it. [00:16:14] Greg: [00:16:14] And that’s where the action framework came in and that’s where it’s grown the most over the years, it’s just providing more different, more powerful ways to manipulate your texts and get it out, published somewhere or into the system. [00:16:27] Brett: [00:16:27] the thing that’s always appealed to me is it takes away the choice. When I opened up my phone with the intention of, of taking a note or sending a tweet or, uh, adding a, to do item the, that paradoxical moment where you have to figure out which app to use. And to just have drafts in my dock and just be able to always know this is where I start. [00:16:51] This is where I get it out of my head, and then I can do anything I want with it. And it’s, it’s always served that purpose really well. [00:16:57]Greg: [00:16:57] Yeah, and I think it helps a lot of [00:17:00] people keep. I don’t write the, it doesn’t keep your phone in your pocket per se, but keeps it from staying out of your pocket for too long. You know, you’re out at a restaurant, you have an idea or something, you know, you need to remember later and you want to jot it down. [00:17:16] But you don’t have to sit there and assign tags to it and put it in the right list and your task manager and ignore the people you’re with for 10 minutes doing it. You know, you just get it out, jot it down, put away your phone and you’re fine. And you deal with it later. [00:17:31] Brett: [00:17:31] And you don’t get distracted by all the other items on the, to do list. You’re adding it to [00:17:36] Greg: [00:17:36] Yeah. I mean, I use it for Twitter that, that way all the time, because you think of something you want to tweet and you just don’t. If you open up the Twitter app, you’re, you’re gone, you’re done for, for 20 minutes, but if you just type it up and tweet it without ever leaving drafts, you don’t have that problem. [00:17:53] Brett: [00:17:53] So what, what other big changes have happened in the last few years for drafts? [00:17:57]Greg: [00:17:57] Um, well, I mean, [00:18:00] when we talked in 2014, the app was about two years old. It came out in 2012 originally, and I kind of grew it to a certain point. I did several major release upgrade versions, uh, along the way. And then a little more than two years ago, I relaunched it. Um, As a new app on the store, a new skew with a subscription model and. [00:18:26] Along with that version and the updates I’ve been doing since it’s become much more of a full featured note storage environment, as well as being a capture tool, you know, with tagging with the workspaces, which are sort of saved filters and views of your drafts. A lot of people have been using it more and more as their soul. [00:18:48] Note taking store, um, which has kind of changed the profile of the app. And of course, along the way, last year, I brought it to the Mac as well, which was a big piece of, of making it a [00:19:00] complete solution for a lot of people for. [00:19:03] Brett: [00:19:03] Turns out nobody wants to take notes on just one or the other and not have it accessible on both. [00:19:08]Greg: [00:19:08] Yeah. Yeah. And it, you know, the transient nature of the way people, a lot of people use drafts bait it, you know, it’s still was it worked for them on just iOS, because it was their convenient thing on their phone to capture stuff and send it somewhere else. But the more you start to store stuff in it, the more you want to be able to get to it everywhere. [00:19:29]Brett: [00:19:29] Yeah. I mean, appending to a Dropbox file is, is okay. But having the full search and workspace capability of drafts on your Mac is, uh, ideal in comparison. [00:19:41]Greg: [00:19:41] Yeah. I mean, it’s something I’d wanted to do forever, but I really had to do a lot of rearchitecting to do so when I released what was originally drafts five in. Early 2018. I had rewritten it from the ground up and along the way, the [00:20:00] core framework stuff like the editors and the data storage, I had built it all across platform to be ready for that. [00:20:07] It was a multiyear journey, but it was worth it. [00:20:10] Brett: [00:20:10] So speaking of the Mac app, I think that you, you added, um, uh, kind of, uh, integration for Marked’s streaming preview, which allowed people to see their markdown notes in rendered format as they typed. Um, the biggest issue was that the current version of Mart flashes every time you type a key now, [00:20:37]Greg: [00:20:37] Cause you’re reloading the HTML every time. [00:20:41] Brett: [00:20:41] So I, uh, I, because of your integration, I created our, I rewrote the entire. Update system for the preview. And it’s currently in beta. By the time this episode goes live, it’ll probably be out of beta and live on the app store, but I’ve got it down now [00:21:00] where it updates fluidly with, with no flashing and, uh, and drafts was the big inspiration for me finally, getting to, uh, to rewriting that. [00:21:09] So I’m excited about that. [00:21:11]Greg: [00:21:11] Sorry. I created work for you. [00:21:13] Brett: [00:21:13] Oh, no, it needed to be done. Uh, the only thing stopping me from doing it was I had at least a dozen features in Marked that kind of depended on the DOMz refreshing with every update. Uh, and it was a lot of mental gymnastics to figure out how to not break everything. But once I got into it, it turns out I’m not the worst programmer in the world and it was all, it was all salvageable and, and it, like, it was the first time I’ve gone into code that was over five years old and not hated it. I did, I did something right. [00:21:52]Greg: [00:21:52] That’s cool. Sometimes you surprise yourself. Sometimes you run in fear at the stuff you’ve done in the past, but. [00:21:58] Brett: [00:21:58] I tend to, every [00:22:00] time I start a new project between the last project and the new one, I’ve learned like a new pattern or a new framework or a I’ve gotten better at, uh, anything from one liners to, uh, general algorithms. And so I’ll start with a fresh slate and I’ll be writing all my code in a new pattern. [00:22:22] And then by the time I get to the project, after that, I hate everything that I had built. Like I’m ready for a whole new pattern. And I don’t like to go back and work on anything I made before, such as life of coding, I guess. [00:22:35]Greg: [00:22:35] Yeah, it is frustrating. [00:22:39] Brett: [00:22:39] Is it, or is it, is it a fun challenge? I think it’s a fun challenge. [00:22:43] Greg: [00:22:43] Well, I don’t think we’d be doing it if we didn’t find it a fun challenge. It is frustrating at times though. [00:22:48]Brett: [00:22:48] So I’ve, I have two, two questions, both related to drafts, one from me. And one from another guest who heard you were going to be on a first off, I’m [00:23:00] working on my own note taking app that will admittedly be a competitor to drafts, but setting that aside, we’re trying to figure out if we want to go subscription or not. [00:23:13] And we neither of us. Like the idea of going subscription. Um, we want to just sell the app and let people own it, but we also need ways to handle free trials and paid upgrade paths. And the app store doesn’t really offer us much other than subscriptions. So we’re leaning that direction and Drafts is, one of the, one of the apps that I subscribed to, and it doesn’t bother me. [00:23:39] I’m wondering how that’s worked out for you. [00:23:41]Greg: [00:23:41] So I, I was very hesitant about it as well. You know, I I’m a person, I think like everybody else, you do get fatigued by it. You’ve got all these streaming services and other things you subscribed to, and you start to realize those bills add up. Um, and you know, in the more [00:24:00] software has gone that way, I have more and more of those subscriptions. [00:24:03] And I always hesitant about it too, but it. It was a decision that was kind of a make or break for me for drafts. I was at that point, uh, rebuilding it a couple of years ago, I had, you know, was, was the existing version making money? Yes, it was making some money, but it was not making enough to support me, spending. [00:24:26] The time on it. Right. So I could have said a new version as an upgrade again. Yeah. But that’s also something the app store doesn’t handle excessively. Well, you know, to move to a new SKU, you know, you’re breaking a history of URLs and links and reviews and stuff that are detrimental to your app. It’s very difficult to move users and to, to migrate them if you do that. [00:24:52] So a lot of pain points and I, I did launch as a new SKU because I wanted to support my existing users for awhile and [00:25:00] not force people to migrate to the new version immediately. If, if they didn’t feel it was a fit for them. Um, so I took that step. I also made a generous free version because I felt like the nature of drafts is not something people always just get, like your light bulb moment with drafts is probably not going to happen in a seven day free trial. [00:25:24]So I wanted the opportunity for people to experiment with it, you know, play with it for a few months or continue use it forever for free. If that meets their needs and hope sometime down the road, once they’ve got it integrated in their tool set, they’ll decide some of those pro features are worth the addition. [00:25:42] No, you know, Things. So there was a lot of steps to the way I built into that process, but also I was deciding, am I going to do this as a full time job or not? You know, I was not making enough from drafts that I didn’t have. Trying to [00:26:00] create the right words for this. But my vision for the app could not be realized if I, I did not have a steady income from it. [00:26:06] Um, and the upgrade cycle leaves you in the place I was there, where your income is front loaded. At the time you do an upgrade, your loyal users pay you and then. At the tail end of that, you’re struggling to get, get out that next version. You probably held features that you wanted to do for a year because you need to be able to charge for them, et cetera, et cetera. [00:26:33] And I just wanted it to be able to. Develop quickly iterate get new features out there fast. I’m not sure I have to hold them for a big upgrade, things like that. And I, I just think that this model fits for what drafts is because there’s a lot to be added. And I think that that’s part of the nature of it too, is that it is an app that lends itself to constant iteration. [00:26:59] I think that [00:27:00] there are some apps that have gone to a subscription model that are more or less feature complete. And you it’s harder to see the value. You know of them maintaining it. Yes. There’s a lot of work to continue to maintain that software, do OSTP compatibility and stuff like that. But, um, it’s not, it’s not as visible to the user. [00:27:21] It’s not stuff they understand. They’re getting as a benefit for continuing to pay. So, you know, it’s a matter of the nature of the app, uh, and what I wanted to do with it, but I haven’t gotten that much pushback. I mean, there was people who just don’t want anything to do with subscriptions. And I understand that, and I may have lost some of those customers, but what I did get was enough customers to make this sustainable and who are happy with. [00:27:50] The development, pace and stuff. So yeah, you know, you got to cut your losses in some areas, you can’t please everybody, but so far it’s [00:28:00] been out and it’s been able to make it my full time job. And it’s, you know, without that subscription income, I wouldn’t have been able to bring it to the Mac. I wouldn’t have been able to do some of the additions I’ve done to the app. [00:28:10] So. [00:28:11] Brett: [00:28:11] I think, uh, I think for us right now, because we’re not converting, we’re like we don’t have a paid version out there that we’re going to disappoint a bunch of people. Uh, I think it’s way easier for us to. Launch with a subscription model and just anyone who doesn’t like it, anyone who’s diametrically opposed to subscription, we might not get them as a customer, but I do like the idea of having, as you put it a generous free version. [00:28:42] Cause I think those people might change their mind over time. [00:28:45]Greg: [00:28:45] Yeah. I’ve had people told me they had drafts on their phone for six months, a year or whatever, before they really either clicked with them what they were supposed to do with it. Or somebody else talked about it on a podcast and they realized [00:29:00] their use case. They hadn’t thought of before for it. And things like that that eventually. [00:29:05] You know, and now it’s one of their favorite apps. So I didn’t want those people to be scared away. And you can consider a lifetime unlock too, which is something I’ve gone back and forth on there. There are people who requested, um, it’s a small number of people. And to this date, I’ve decided that I didn’t think it was. [00:29:25] The right choice for the app. Um, but some people would insist, Hey, I would rather pay you the equivalent of three years of subscription costs upfront than to have a subscription. I felt a little weird about that because I feel like you’re, you’re making a promise that. Uh, he, you know, that, that, and yes, absolutely. [00:29:48] I’d tend to keep developing this app. I hope it’s going to be great three years from now or five years from now, but should something come up and I decide to quit doing it. I feel like I’ve made promises to those people that I, [00:30:00] you know, they would have been. Better off just subscribing. And if you’re paying for it once a year, you know, it’s not like a monthly thing. [00:30:08] I mean, you can pay for it monthly, or you can pay the 20 bucks and go ahead and get a year. Um, it’s not like it’s something that hit, it hits your charge card every month. And. [00:30:19]Brett: [00:30:19] Yeah. I, uh, I have always in every job I’ve had, uh, where I was working for other people. I’ve always documented everything. Yeah, I did thoroughly with, because I wanted to be able to have the peace of mind of knowing I could walk out, um, or something could happen. And I wouldn’t feel like I had let down the job, someone else could step in and do what I did. [00:30:46] And. I’m I, it goes against the idea of making yourself irreplaceable through obscurity. But, um, but I haven’t, I always liked to have that freedom. It’s been important to me to know that if [00:31:00] something happens, if something changes, I’m not stuck. And I, I think I had the same reaction to the idea of lifetime on locks. [00:31:07]Greg: [00:31:07] Yeah. Yeah, you don’t, you, you want to put yourself in a position where you’re not going to leave anyone in the lurch. If you decide to work on something else or whatever. [00:31:17] Brett: [00:31:17] Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know if, uh, if users re understand the level of obligation that most developers independent or not feel towards their users. It’s a, there’s a bond there. We, we feel a responsibility to take care of people who give us money. [00:31:36]Greg: [00:31:36] Yeah, and I mean, that’s been a great thing about, I think this has come with subscriptions to some extent too, but I think it helped build the, build the community around the app. I think the level of investment increased, I think the mental, uh, participation, you know, I, I have a discourse forum for users to help each other with actions and stuff. [00:31:56] And I think the level of engagement. Has gone up, [00:32:00] um, with the subscription. And I don’t know if there’s any real psychology to that or not, but I think people are a little more invested in the app. Um, and that, that helps not just, you know, them, but other people in the community and stuff I have. Hey doc, small core set of power users that are great and really help people out on the community forums and help people get the most out of the app. [00:32:26] And you know that that’s amazing to have that behind it. [00:32:31] Brett: [00:32:31] Well, there’s nothing like a yearly or monthly reminder that you’re paying for something to add value to it. [00:32:36]Greg: [00:32:36] Absolutely. [00:32:38]Brett: [00:32:38] Alright. So question the second, uh, comes from Eric Linder. He’s wondering if you have any tips for searching in drafts. He’s especially curious about if he knows an exact phrase he’s searching for, he can’t always get the results to come up for an exact phrase. [00:32:55]Greg: [00:32:55] Um, so I could point them to stuff in the docs, but both in the quick [00:33:00] search and in the search over the list, uh, drafts supports Google style, uh, tokenization. So if you want to find an exact phrase, if you put it in quotes, um, Where you’re going to search, be searching for that entire phrase. And you can also do omissions with the minus sign, like you can on Google. [00:33:20] So if you want to, uh, you know, find something but omit some related things, and that works with tags as well as content of the draft itself. So you can construct some pretty, uh, pretty intricate queries. Uh, just with those two features. It does not. Um, that is something that I’d like to, to add it there’s a, and or constructs for tag filters and workspaces, but the query string itself doesn’t have, uh, it does not have boolean. [00:33:53]Brett: [00:33:53] Uh, I, that is that the search syntax in apps [00:34:00] like drafts or the upcoming nvUltra, or even, like TaskPaper. Everyone kind of develops their own query syntax. And I really it’s nice when people Google set a standard and it’s nice when things that work in Google work in your text editor apps. the quoting exact phrases should definitely be a standard for everybody. [00:34:24] Um, I actually, yeah, our app doesn’t incorporate the plus minus. We have we have, and, and not booleans, but the plus minus would be really handy. I might steal that. [00:34:35] Greg: [00:34:35] I’ve got it on my list that you better believe in logic. I haven’t got there yet though. It’s definitely something that’s a part of the growth curve of, of drafts, you know, for a long time, people didn’t use it for more femoral things. And now that they’re storing more stuff in it, long term, having support powerful features, there would be great. [00:34:55] Brett: [00:34:55] So what’s up next? Anything you can talk about. [00:34:57]Greg: [00:34:57] Um, I got I right now, I’m [00:35:00] in the midst of the OSTP upgrades, you know, implementing the new features are kind of have to be there. Um, for the ULS is, cause drafts is kind of known for being on the cutting edge of, of what you can do. So I working on widgets and, um, I’ve previewed them on Twitter and stuff, but I have. [00:35:17] Good widget implementation. It’s not working none, you know, just visual upgrades for big Sur, um, stuff like that. That’s the short, short term. And then hopefully end of year, two, beginning of next year, I’m going to finally roll out custom syntax definitions and things, which is kind of in part of the core editor engine. [00:35:36] I rewrote for. For the current version of drafts all along, but I haven’t rolled out the ability to install your own, develop your own. And I think that’s going to kick open the doors for a lot of things on Drafts, because as it stands, the syntax highlighting that ships with the app, I have several flavors of markdown and a taskpaper and [00:36:00] JavaScript syntax highlighting, but, uh, The engine underneath that is a it’s simplified. [00:36:06] It’s not a, you know, code programmer level. but it’s meant to be more approachable and it has some flexibility to let people do some cool variance, like, It’s all rejects based and things like clickable tasks can not just be on off, but you can configure your own that have multiple States, uh, things like that. [00:36:29] And I think, and there’s also been a number of other minor variations. Yeah. So syntax that people want, you know, Hey, I, I write it marked down, but I have this special annotation syntax I like to use. And it, it will be somewhat trivial to. Introduce that as kind of variance and it also supports a more stylistic options. [00:36:51] I’ve kept the, the default ones that ship with the app, pretty plain Jane, but stuff like, uh, text sizes and [00:37:00] colors and, um, things are all controllable with it. So if you’re the kind of person who wants your markdown headers to be really big, uh, you can do that and syntax definitions on stuff. So that’s, hopefully it ended the year kind of thing. [00:37:14] It’s, it’s one of the things that, that, that the core technology. So there, but building out the UI is always the chore. [00:37:21] Brett: [00:37:21] Sure. Absolutely. All right. Well that brings us around to the top three picks. Are you prepared for that? [00:37:29] Greg: [00:37:29] I am reasonably prepared for that. [00:37:32] Brett: [00:37:32] All right. Well, hit me with your first one. [00:37:35] Greg: [00:37:35] All right. Well, can we get very general for the first one? [00:37:39] Brett: [00:37:39] totally. We can do anything you want. [00:37:42] Greg: [00:37:42] I pick reading, sounds really lame, but reading fiction specifically, because that’s something I really fell out of the habit of doing, um, you know, I, I was an avid reader in the day and you know, you have. Kids, you get occupied with other stuff at all. [00:37:58] And I just, wasn’t finding [00:38:00] time to read any fiction at all for years other than what I read to the kids, you know, when they were young and, uh, I read a lot to them, but, um, I didn’t read much for myself. And beginning of the pandemic, I decided I was gonna, I was gonna get back into reading and it’s been great. [00:38:19] Uh, it’s just such a great way to zone out from the stream of things, you know, and I don’t mean reading an article on, on the web. I mean, sitting down with a book, um, and separating from the, the stream of things. [00:38:34] Brett: [00:38:34] Are you a Kindle guy or a paperback guy? [00:38:37] Greg: [00:38:37] Um, I am somewhat begrudgingly, a Kindle guy. And part of this was I bought a new Kindle, uh, at the beginning of the pandemic to support this habit. And it mostly has to do with my vision at this point, you know? I’m 51 years old. I don’t see as well as I used to, I pick up an average paperback book. And even with my bifocal glasses, [00:39:00] I have trouble reading the text in it. [00:39:03] So being able to blow up the font size a bit, [00:39:07] Brett: [00:39:07] which Kendall did you get? [00:39:08] Greg: [00:39:08] I got the paper white that the basic Paperwhite, and I’ve been happy with it. [00:39:14] Brett: [00:39:14] I got the Oasis. I’m really happy with that one. [00:39:16]Greg: [00:39:16] I didn’t spend too much time trying to figure out the, the variations on it. Um, [00:39:22]Brett: [00:39:22] um, so what have you read lately? That’s awesome. [00:39:26]Greg: [00:39:26] um, I’ve heard of a few things that were kind of on my list of wish wished I had read, but never got around to things. I read Philip K Dick’s band in the high castle. Which was a really good, I read Octavia Butler’s kindred, [00:39:42] Brett: [00:39:42] Yes, I just, I just did that one. [00:39:44] Greg: [00:39:44] which was pretty amazing read. That’s the great thing about fiction too, is I I’m a person who reads a lot, has always read a lot of nonfiction and analytical articles and things. [00:39:57] I like to be on top of current events [00:40:00] and whatnot. You can think about things like race, but when you put them in a context of a, you know, Fiction and, uh, especially something that scifi like that, that kind of puts you in, in the sense of place at all. It really makes you think about it differently. [00:40:16] Brett: [00:40:16] Yeah. Uh, reading Octavia led me to reading NK Jemisin, uh, following the line of, of black female authors. Have you read any of the broken earth trilogy or like the city we became? Any of that stuff? [00:40:32] Greg: [00:40:32] No, but. [00:40:33] Brett: [00:40:33] I [00:40:33] Greg: [00:40:33] Sounds good ones for the list. Um, I’ve also been rereading Ursula, Kayla Gwynn’s or see books, which are kind of her team teen oriented books, but they’re ones I read when I was a preteen and loved, and I was kind of interested in revisiting them in light of the post Harry Potter era and stuff, because they, they kind of have a lot of the same themes that. [00:40:59] Uh, [00:41:00] that JK Rowling sort of, I don’t want to say ripped off, but, uh, built on it, did it in a different way, you know, a wizard who goes off to Wizarding school, uh, and that kind of stuff. Um, [00:41:12] Brett: [00:41:12] Okay. I’m not familiar with Ursula. K [00:41:15] Greg: [00:41:15] look when, [00:41:16] Brett: [00:41:16] McGwynn. Alright. I’ll have to check that out too. [00:41:19]Greg: [00:41:19] and she’s written other science fiction. Um, We’re adult science fiction, but a third seat books are a good introduction to her. [00:41:28]Brett: [00:41:28] All right. Cool. All right. So reading with a lot of sub picks there. [00:41:33]Greg: [00:41:33] Yeah. [00:41:34]Other other stuff I’ve been doing just like in media consumption? Uh, I like a light show. I don’t like a lot of sh you know, my wife and I sit down to watch TV usually, and we don’t want to get to. Deep into something. So I tend to watch stuff that’s on the lighter side, I’ve really been enjoying uncle, which is on Hulu. [00:41:55] I don’t know if anybody’s up for comedy series, but a it’s a, [00:42:00] it’s a British comedy show. Uh, About a, a, not a musician who does not have his life together very well, who is put in a place where he’s taking care of his nephew more often because of his sister’s divorce. And, uh, you know, it’s kind of the, the learning experience of the, both the, the team and the, the uncle. [00:42:27] And with a lot of good comedy stuff. [00:42:30] Brett: [00:42:30] Is it, is it typical British comedy? Uh, is it slightly uncomfortable to watch? [00:42:36] Greg: [00:42:36] yes, absolutely. At times he, he definitely does not realize the responsibilities of taking care of a child in a lot of ways and results in a certain amount of mischief. But, uh, [00:42:51] Brett: [00:42:51] Um, if you’re looking for a well-written light 30 minute comedy show lately, I’ve been really [00:43:00] into life and pieces. [00:43:02]Greg: [00:43:02] I have not watched Allen [00:43:03] Brett: [00:43:03] Most people haven’t, uh, I think it was originally on CBS, but it’s on Amazon prime. Now, if you have prime, a, it’s a fun it’s it’s not, it’s super light. Um, you’re not gonna learn anything from it, but it’s a good, it’s a good filler show. [00:43:21]Greg: [00:43:21] Yeah, I I’ve been to usually like something like that. I can watch two episodes of that. That’s that’s on the lighter side. [00:43:28]Brett: [00:43:28] Yeah, I need a long form shows you like. [00:43:31]Greg: [00:43:31] Um, you know, I’ve given a few, a try during the pandemic that were some of the hit things like Ozark and stuff. And I liked a well enough, but. They never hold my interest into the second or third season. Like I usually find that those, uh, are worn out. I mean, the Watchmen was amazing. It was, and it’s what it should be. [00:43:53] You know, short run series. They did what they needed to do with it. I hope they don’t come back and try to make more, [00:44:00] um, as great as it was. Um, [00:44:02]Brett: [00:44:02] feel, I feel like that’s why Netflix cancels everything after two or three seasons. It’s hard to keep people going after that. [00:44:09]Greg: [00:44:09] Yeah, I just actually been, I had never, although I’d heard great things about it over the years and always wanted to watch it. I had never sat down and watched community and. One of my sons and I started watching it and it is a great show and it was amazing for awhile, but we’re into the last two seasons now. [00:44:27] And it’s really like, okay, this, I still like these characters and they’re still FID bits in it, but, uh, it is kind of worn out. [00:44:36] Brett: [00:44:36] Yep. I did. I did, as part of the, my pandemic TV watching, I did go through community and its entirety and it was worth it, but you’re right by, by the last two seasons it’s, it’s wearing thin a little bit. I really feel like a Troy and I bed should have had a spinoff show about that time. About the time that Troy left, they should have, they should have, uh, signed him up for [00:45:00] a second show. [00:45:02] That would have been, I would watch that. [00:45:04]Greg: [00:45:04] Yeah, the last couple of seasons, they’re a little too obsessed with some of the fourth wall breaking and stuff like that. It’s all right. I got that joke, but [00:45:13]Brett: [00:45:13] Alright. Third pick. [00:45:15] Greg: [00:45:15] Third pick. All right. I was going to go with a movie for third pick to keep it simple. And this is one, I assume a lot of your audience is probably familiar with, but maybe not everybody has watched recently, but Harold and Maude, one of my favorite movies ever, and I hadn’t watched it in probably 15 years or something and just watched it a couple of weeks ago with my son. [00:45:37] And it is amazing as ever, um, [00:45:40] Brett: [00:45:40] Yeah, I haven’t watched that for at least 15 years. [00:45:43]Greg: [00:45:43] And it is, I mean, I guess the movie is a dark comedy is how it’s usually listed. It’s also a romance it’s it’s a week, you know, so weird story about two very weird people finding each other in the world, which is kind of encouraging. Um, [00:46:00] and it’s, it’s dated it’s from, I guess, around 70, 71. Um, And, you know, has some of the, uh, dated bits because of that, but it also uses music incredibly well. [00:46:12] Uh, I probably wouldn’t even like cat Stevens if it weren’t for that movie, but I do because it’s so incorporated so well into, into everything in the movie. Um, definitely worth checking out. [00:46:26] Brett: [00:46:26] Do you, uh, do you, do you ever use Spotify? Not Spotify. Um, Shizam now Apple music’s, uh, auto tag feature. [00:46:37] Greg: [00:46:37] No. [00:46:38] Brett: [00:46:38] So like when you’re at home watching a movie or a TV show, you can leave a Shizam open. And it will just start, as music comes on, it’ll just tell you what’s playing. So you can constantly look down. I found a lot of music, a lot of music, like you said, that if it’s well used in a movie or even in a TV show, it contextualizes the [00:47:00] music in a way that just hearing it on the radio wouldn’t and a lot of it becomes more meaningful to me. [00:47:05] So Shizam keeps like basically I can go back in and see every song that played during an episode of a show. And then you have Apple music links to whatever I want. [00:47:15]Greg: [00:47:15] And how well, obviously I am a music oriented person. I love music and always have, so I noticed this stuff more than some, but yeah. When it’s used well in a TV show, her movie, it just enhances it so much. And it’s something, I think a lot of directors or whoever the creatives behind off to various shows are just don’t take advantage of, or don’t have an ear for, or get the right consultants, you know, but that right song in the right place, um, Palm Springs did a really good, uh, version that too is some obscure music, not stuff you hear every day on the radio, but, uh, it just fit well. [00:47:54] And they find their found the right songs and they didn’t just drop it in the mix. You know, they made it a bold [00:48:00] part of the soundtrack really enhanced it. [00:48:04] Brett: [00:48:04] I can’t remember. I was watching something the other night and my girlfriend and I both commented on how amazingly well. They mixed, like it didn’t stick to a genre at all. It had songs from the eighties, it had covers of songs from the, the OTs. It had a new music that no one had ever heard by. [00:48:24] Like, I think the national was in there, but it was just this huge array of music. But every single song was one that made you. Take note without distracting from the plot. I were, if I remember what, what we were watching, I’ll throw that in the show notes, but it was worth it. [00:48:42] Greg: [00:48:42] Have you watched? I am not okay with this on Netflix. That used music really well too. [00:48:48]Brett: [00:48:48] Yes. You have good taste. [00:48:50]Greg: [00:48:50] Thank you. They just renewed that for a second [00:48:53] Brett: [00:48:53] Oh, really? That’s [00:48:54] Greg: [00:48:54] Hopefully they don’t go off to the sixth season because it will be worn out concept by that. [00:48:59] Brett: [00:48:59] net it’s [00:49:00] Netflix. There’s no way it makes it to six season. [00:49:02] Greg: [00:49:02] So true. [00:49:04] Brett: [00:49:04] Alright, well, uh, anything else you want to add? [00:49:08] Greg: [00:49:08] No, I don’t. So I struggle with pics to begin with. I’m very, very bad at claiming a favorite. Anything better. [00:49:16]Brett: [00:49:16] I generally have too many picks, but I did find that recording, even if I was just recording weekly, coming up with three every week. Cause I used to do a back and forth and I would have three for every one of my guests, three pecks. And that, that got to be, got to be a bit much. I can only like so many things that much. [00:49:38] Greg: [00:49:38] Yeah, [00:49:38]I’m not very, like, I don’t consume a lot of products, like physical products these days. I kind of have stuff I like, and I don’t, I don’t go out and find a lot of new gadgets and things like that to discuss. [00:49:51]Brett: [00:49:51] I get it. Um, [00:49:53] Greg: [00:49:53] just come back every week and discuss my favorite multi-tool and how much I still like it. [00:49:58]Brett: [00:49:58] fair enough. [00:50:00] Um, all right. So where can people find you out, out there on the web? [00:50:04] Greg: [00:50:04] Um, I’m an agile tortoise on Twitter and, uh, you can find drafts that get drafts.com. [00:50:10]Brett: [00:50:10] and, uh, thanks for your time today. [00:50:13] Greg: [00:50:13] Thanks for having me. It was a fun discussion, [00:50:15] Brett: [00:50:15] Thanks for giving me a second shot at recording this. [00:50:18] Greg: [00:50:18] Todd. No problem. [00:50:19] Brett: [00:50:19] All right. Talk to you later. [00:50:20] Greg: [00:50:20] Bye.

This week’s guest is Sarah Johnson, mental health director at the YMCA in La Crosse, Wisconsin. She joins Brett to talk about working the crises that are amplified by the current public health situation. La Crosse YMCA leads Mental Health Toolkit Wisconsin training Steady Heads Open Hearts Mindful Minute Dinner Table Resilience imalifeliver on Instagram Email Sarah Top 3 Picks Effective Coping Skills Asking for help 211 National Suicide Prevention Hotline 800–273-TALK (8255) Text “talk” to 741741 Science Social Science Collective Impact Forum How To ADHD Good One Check out more episodes and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcasting app. Find Brett as @ttscoff on Twitter, and follow Systematic at @systmcast. Transcript Sarah Johnson and Brett Terpstra-1 [00:00:00] Brett Terpstra: [00:00:00] Hey Sarah, how are you doing [00:00:02]Sarah Johnson: [00:00:02] Hey, man, I’m weird. Just like probably everybody else right now, but on the whole, I would say, you know, managing. [00:00:10] Brett Terpstra: [00:00:10] managing? I think that’s, that’s pretty good for, uh, the kind of current circumstances for everybody. Um, I, so I recently relaunched this podcast. I took a year off and I’ve been kind of going through and checking in with some of my favorites from the past. Right. You and I talked about, I have years ago on this podcast. [00:00:33] And [00:00:34] Sarah Johnson: [00:00:34] That long ago. Wow. Okay. [00:00:36] Brett Terpstra: [00:00:36] And, and a lot has changed since then. Very notably in the last six months. Um, and I, and you as a mental health professional were definitely someone I wanted to hear from right now. So welcome back to the show. [00:00:50]Sarah Johnson: [00:00:50] thank you. I’m really pleased to be here. [00:00:53] Brett Terpstra: [00:00:53] So for people who don’t recall an episode five years ago, uh, you are, you, are, are you [00:01:00] still at the Y YMCA? [00:01:01]Sarah Johnson: [00:01:01] I am. Yeah, [00:01:03] Brett Terpstra: [00:01:03] And what is your, uh, what is your job title there? [00:01:06]Sarah Johnson: [00:01:06] My, my official job title is mental health director, but I did convince an HR assistant to get me a name tag that says happiness ferry. Um, essentially my role is to try to take the contents of my brain with my. [00:01:22]Brett Terpstra: [00:01:22] tell me a little more broadly. What? So I think of the Y as a gym. And I’m getting the sense that it’s a lot more than that. So tell me a little bit about, about what the Y provides that, that you are a part of. [00:01:39]Sarah Johnson: [00:01:39] For 13, 14 years ago, we, we began our focus on teen mental health and supporting teens with healthy development. And so a lot of my early work while I was actually working with a medical center, um, and half my time there medical center was, was, um, [00:02:00] funding me to, to work with the Y to, to really develop this, this model of mental health and, um, [00:02:08]Brett Terpstra: [00:02:08] Alright, so, so these days, are you working in the office? Is it an office? Is it in the facility? So what kind of, what kind of services? What, what is your day. Look like right now. [00:02:24]Sarah Johnson: [00:02:24] um, my day right now looks like me on back-to-back-to-back zoom call with my cats, periodically drinking out of my water glass and grossing out our CEO grosses him out every time he sees it. Um, [00:02:42]I’m offering a lot of webinars and trainings in small ways, big ways. So it’s really between me offering content, cramming in as much reading as I can, like early to keep up with all of the changes, [00:03:00] things that we see across our community, across the globe, and really, really kind of. [00:03:06]Responsiveness, um, my own, um, ability to really be as effective as possible because I, you know, I, I already felt a sense of urgency around what I’ve been calling the mental health revolution, um, how we deliver mental health services does not make sense for the vast majority of people. And so really this model of. [00:03:30] Helping everybody in our community know how to care for their mental health and know how to care for the mental health of the community. Is it a much more preventative model, a much more collective model? Um, And, you know, I’m just feeling an even greater sense of urgency around that right now is the, the impacts between the, the health emergency, um, the financial impacts of that. [00:03:56] And then seeing this really beautiful and vital social uprising [00:04:00] in support of black lives and knowing, you know, we’re, we’re just falling short in terms of, of how we. Care for each other. And so right now, we, we need to up our game in how we, how we take care of ourselves in each other. [00:04:17] Brett Terpstra: [00:04:17] so in your, in your job, well in your life, what are you doing to, to meet the, the new challenges? [00:04:25]Sarah Johnson: [00:04:25] Mmm. I’d say an ever evolving [00:04:29] Brett Terpstra: [00:04:29] Sure. [00:04:29] Sarah Johnson: [00:04:29] Hanford, I would say. Um, well, just before. The reason I was late to this call is because I was supporting a couple of our staff, people who were supporting a teen in crisis. Um, and so providing support to, um, a new generation of, of healers and helpers to, to, to bring this model forward and to provide support and provide direct care to, to our friends and neighbors. [00:05:00] [00:05:00] Um, Prior to that. I was on a call with one of my dear, dear friends and colleagues at Y USA talking about what are the needs of our, our, our YMCAs right now, how, how can we share some of the materials that we’ve developed and some of the trainings that we’ve developed and get those to other YMCAs so that they can get those to their members and their community. [00:05:27] Um, and what did I do before that? Uh, For that I was meeting with an intern who will be joining. Yes. And you know, she’s joining us in this very strict change year where I’m like, I don’t, I don’t know if we’ll ever be in the same room together. I don’t know if I have any programs for you to do so we’re going to be making it up and whatever that means, we’re going to be trying to help support the mental health, the community. [00:05:50] So it’s really in flux right now. Knowing that, you know, not only us, but yeah. Are all of our community partners [00:06:00] are at, um, a diminished capacity. And so some of the work is actually supporting. My colleagues, um, not just at the Y, but my community partners, social workers who are not able to go into people’s homes to help them right now. [00:06:16] And, and, um, health workers coming, health workers who are, you know, under a barrage of stress and criticism, um, from some angles. And so how do I help support the people who are helping support the health of our community? So, um, Yeah, so it’s on a lot of levels. And in the meantime, you know, trying to have my own sense of balance and taking care of myself too. [00:06:44]Brett Terpstra: [00:06:44] So are there, I assume that the social situation and the economic situation. Has exacerbated existing mental health issues. Have you seen anything new come up since the lockdown and [00:07:00] since the financial crisis? [00:07:02] Sarah Johnson: [00:07:02] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We’re, you know, very predictably and, and, um, you know, consistent with other. Crises and, and, um, disasters, we’re seeing a mental health impact. We’re seeing a much greater rise in anxiety. Um, yeah, even just, I did a survey with my team this week, uh, and 72% of my team said, yes, they’re experiencing increased anxiety around just in the last few weeks with the S with all the stress. [00:07:38] And so, um, You know, it’s, like I said, mental health is how we think feel and act. We all think, feel and act all the time. And there’s no way that our current circumstances aren’t going to impact at least one of those elements or we think, or how we feel or how we act. So, um, yeah, so, you know, I would [00:08:00] say kind of by way, normalizing, if you’re finding yourself. [00:08:04] With your mood, less stable, I’m feeling more anxious having sleep disruptions, you know, you’re not alone and you don’t have to suffer with that. Right. So there’s a little bit of a balance here of we’re all experiencing to some degree. Um, some of us more than others. An impact on how we feel. And, and if you’re finding that it’s getting in your way, um, you’re having trouble doing the things you typically do. [00:08:35] You’re having trouble getting out of bed or getting motivated. Um, certainly if you’re having thoughts about is life worth it, or, you know, I wish I could go to sleep and never wake up again, or I’d rather be dead. Those, those are big, big red flags that, um, it’s going to be important for you to reach out and get some help with that. [00:08:52]Brett Terpstra: [00:08:52] Do you think that, uh, being relegated primarily to zoom right. Has, uh, had a, [00:09:00] well, I’m gonna assume it has, has had an impact, but do you think it’s been a surmountable change in the way that you and your team provide the services you provide? [00:09:11]Sarah Johnson: [00:09:11] I think we’re kicking ass despite the circumstances. Um, I think. I think zoom and the virtual environment. I mean, zoom is kind of now the Kleenex for the virtual environment, right. Or whatever the platform is. Um, I’m most comfortable with zoom and have had some good luck with that. And I’ve, I’ve actually found that, you know, certainly for psychoeducation and, um, just general teaching and, um, small group, um, preexisting. [00:09:44] Uh, relationships, um, I’m finding it quite helpful and it’s actually been good for my mental health to be able to reach out to my teams and actually see them, you know, lay eyes on them. Now, in the, in terms of virtual environment for [00:10:00] psychotherapy, um, or in the, the realm of having more intimate conversations or. [00:10:06] Or brave conversations like such as conversations around race and racial equity. Mmm. There are limitations. And especially if the team does not know each other, I think, um, I’m, I think we’re we’re ahead of the research around. The virtual environment in some of those ways, like we, we very quickly went to telehealth, which has been really good. [00:10:31] And I think by and large for individuals tele-health has actually been way better than a lot of people fought. And I’m even hearing a lot of my colleagues say they have a much lower, no show rate in the virtual environment than they do in real life, which is. Makes sense, Comey, it’s kind of, duh, this is why we need a revolution to bring mental health services to people, not expect people to go to services, but, but you know, it’s group environment and, you know, younger children, [00:11:00] um, it provides some, some real, some real, um, Challenges, I would say, I don’t know that they’re insurmountable because we’re we’re babies at this and we’re, we’re right in the middle of it. [00:11:13] But I know that for myself, I have led a few groups where I feel like I’ve learned the hard way, um, how awkward and potentially damaging it can be in the virtual environment. If you don’t have really good facilitation and really just some, some ways of addressing. Behaviors that can be potentially even unintentionally harmful. [00:11:40]Brett Terpstra: [00:11:40] Um, I’m really glad to hear that, that you’re finding ways to adapt. Um, I see my current psychotic trust is, is telemedicine. Uh, weirdly they make me go into Hiawatha Valley and wash my hands and sit in a dark room. with, with my [00:12:00] doctor on a screen. Um, but for the last, for, for the last appointment, they did go full telemedicine and I got to meet with her from my basement where [00:12:10] Sarah Johnson: [00:12:10] Good. Okay. Good. [00:12:11] Brett Terpstra: [00:12:11] Um, but when I scheduled my next appointment, they said they were bringing everyone back into the office and I don’t understand why, but anyway, it has, it has worked out for me. Um, I think maybe I wouldn’t choose, I wouldn’t choose it over an in person visit if I had the choice, but. I started seeing her before the pandemic was a thing. [00:12:37] And she, she, okay. Telemedicine was better than the in-person psychiatrist I had through another facility. So it wasn’t like it wasn’t an impediment to actually being able to talk. And it’s not psychotherapy it’s psychiatry, but, uh, but it still, it, it, it didn’t stop it [00:13:00] from being effective for me. [00:13:02] Sarah Johnson: [00:13:02] That’s good to hear. [00:13:03] Brett Terpstra: [00:13:03] I do. [00:13:03] I like, I get panic attacks before every appointment, not, not full one time, a full on panic attack, but I get increased anxiety before every appointment, because I know that with one check Mark on a piece of paper, they can take away the meds that I depend on. Because it’s happened to me before. [00:13:23] Sarah Johnson: [00:13:23] Yup. [00:13:24] Brett Terpstra: [00:13:24] so I’m like, I get it sense of dread every time I have to go talk to a mental health professional now, um, it’s a gun shy thing, I guess, but. [00:13:34]Sarah Johnson: [00:13:34] Well, but you know, that, that speaks to kind of what I. Again, call the mental health revolution. Um, you know, I, I think we have a ways to go, uh, before everybody’s really heard. And, and I think even in the mental health profession, there are times where patients I E humans are not [00:14:00] heard and not trusted to be the experts on there. [00:14:03]Their lived experience their internal experience, what they need. So I hear you and I’m sorry that that’s, that, that was your experience. [00:14:14] Brett Terpstra: [00:14:14] Yeah. Oh, well, my current doctor seems to think more of the way you do. Um, she, she always is able to comfort me in that area, but anyway, I’m looking at an article from the lacrosse Tribune. About, uh, the lacrosse, Y YMCA mental health toolkit, Wisconsin training. it’s yeah, because it’s all the way back from March and a bunch of people are sitting around tables together, what, what was the, uh, almost immediate impact of the pandemic on that initiative that you were working on? [00:14:48] Sarah Johnson: [00:14:48] you know, it’s so funny that you should say that. Cause that, I mean, that was I, so the, the week before I had initially planned to have the Wisconsin [00:15:00] toolkit pilot kickoff, and I can explain a little more about what that is. Um, or you can add that article, which would be great, um, plan to have the Wisconsin. [00:15:08] Toolkit kickoff on March 4th, because March 4th to revolution and we want to March 4th. So that was, wasn’t a little joke with myself, but then I got invited to speak at, um, national advocacy days about mental health, um, for our Y USA. And so March 4th, I had this incredible day where I got to speak to, um, CEOs and staff from every single why state in the nation about mental health and got to do some advocacy on, um, On the Hill and then, um, moved the Wisconsin pilot to March 11th and had this great day full day training. [00:15:52] We had seven, including our own 45 people crammed into our multi multipurpose room. And then, you know, [00:16:00] this great day learning, kicking off this year of pilot to train and get materials across. Wisconsin around mental health. And then you took great pictures and arms around each other, feeling great, cleaning up the room and got in my car, turned on NPRs I’m driving home and learned that we were in a national or a global pandemic as of that day. [00:16:23] And I was like, well, that was. Okay, that’s done. That’s okay. So that’s where my pivot has come is, you know, so what does that mean? How do we, how do we, how do we get the information out anyway, knowing that, you know, many, unfortunately, many, many Ys have. Have closed and may are in danger of closing. So we’ve got teams who are furloughed and laid off. [00:16:49] So how do we get this information out to everybody? So I really appreciate you having me on this, this call because. You know, we need to be talking about it [00:17:00] everywhere. It’s not just mental health people who should be talking about it. It’s it’s all of us. Um, like I said, because we all have mental health and my, my belief, what I call the mental health revolution, what I’ve heard others call decolonizing mental health is we all need to be able to be peer helpers for each other. [00:17:20] Right. Because I go to my friends and my family for support. I want them to know how to. Support me and I, I need to know how to support them. Um, the same is true for, you know, somebody across the, the town that I’ve never even met. They’re going to go to their friends and family. I want their friends and family to know how to support them. [00:17:39] And I want them to know how to support their friends and family. [00:17:41]Brett Terpstra: [00:17:41] So where, where can people go to, to learn more about, uh, what, what the Y is doing and why it’s important? [00:17:49]Sarah Johnson: [00:17:49] Oh, that’s a good one. Gosh. And how people can be in contact with me, certainly. Um, I would say, I would say, be in contact with your local Y and [00:18:00] see what they’re up to. Um, there are some Ys across the country who are offering all kinds of social services and mental health support. They, you know, like the, the San Francisco, Y has. [00:18:11]Several, a couple of clinics and several mental health providers who can provide low or no cost care. Um, my folks in old colony up around Boston are doing incredible work. Um, With shelters, actually sheltering youth who, who are, um, houseless and, um, connecting people with social workers, um, doing restorative justice work. [00:18:35] So, you know, depending on, on your, why there’s all kinds of things that they may be doing. And no matter what. If Y says, you know, well, we’re not, not doing mental health work necessarily. It’s not true because all of the things that YMCA does. So if you go and you go to your YMCAs and you’re moving your body and you’re physically active, that is helping you be mentally healthy. [00:19:00] [00:19:00] If you are connecting with other people, That is helping you be mentally healthy because connections and relationships are one of the key stones to good mental health. And if you are connecting with the Y in a, in a way of serving or, um, donating or volunteering, you’re connecting to it. Yeah. Greater purpose. [00:19:20] And that is another really good way to support Goodman mental health. So, you know, whether or not a Y. Is, you know, I’m putting in air quotes, doing mental health. You’re going to have mental health benefits from, from going to the Y and being involved in the why. I always say the why is medicine? [00:19:38] Brett Terpstra: [00:19:38] Yeah, I really liked the idea that it’s such a varied. Yeah. Like there’s no unifying. This is what the, why does, uh, that it is more of a community service that provides what’s needed at the time. That’s really cool. [00:19:55] Sarah Johnson: [00:19:55] Yeah. And I would say the unifying is our mission and, and we have a [00:20:00] really, there’s a very distinct why voice and why culture. Um, and it’s it, you know, it, it feels good to be in a room full of people who are quote unquote Y people. And it turns out, I didn’t know, it I’ve been a Y person, my whole life. [00:20:15] I just. Didn’t have a Y. So now I have a Y [00:20:19] Brett Terpstra: [00:20:19] very cool. Um, all right. Well, this is all very good. And I’m intrigued to hear what your top three picks are going to be. Do you have those prepared? [00:20:29] Sarah Johnson: [00:20:29] I do. [00:20:29] Brett Terpstra: [00:20:29] Oh, excellent. This is going to be fun. [00:20:32] Sarah Johnson: [00:20:32] It was hard for me to pick. There were a lot of things that I, I was like, wow, I could go a lot of directions with [00:20:38] Brett Terpstra: [00:20:38] I would have guessed that about you. A lot of my guests say I had a really hard time finding three things that I cared enough about, and then some guests once in a while. Yourself included are like, I had trouble narrowing it down to three things I was excited about. [00:20:54] Sarah Johnson: [00:20:54] Can I give you 37? [00:20:56] Brett Terpstra: [00:20:56] you can throw in a couple extra as needed, but, [00:21:00] um, last time, one of your picks was your cat. [00:21:02] Franklin. Is he still around? [00:21:05] Sarah Johnson: [00:21:05] Oh, he is, and he is still the best. [00:21:07] Brett Terpstra: [00:21:07] that’s great to hear. [00:21:08] Sarah Johnson: [00:21:08] I will have a second cat and he’s second best. And we’re all clear on our roles. Second best for anyone who’s like, Aw, no second. Best is still really good. You know, the best of all plants it’s top three. So [00:21:22] Brett Terpstra: [00:21:22] We, uh, my cat Yeti, we brought home a new kitten named [00:21:27] Sarah Johnson: [00:21:27] I fell out of that. Yeah. [00:21:29] Brett Terpstra: [00:21:29] but the day after we brought him home, Yeti got sick [00:21:32]Sarah Johnson: [00:21:32] Oh, no. [00:21:34] Brett Terpstra: [00:21:34] is like 17 years old now. And all of a sudden he stopped eating was just hiding under the bed. So we got him into the vet and it turned out to be pancreatitis. [00:21:43] Very likely, completely unrelated to the kitten. Just bad timing. [00:21:46]Sarah Johnson: [00:21:46] yeah. [00:21:47] Brett Terpstra: [00:21:47] he is, he is now as of today, just starting to act like his old self, following me around like a puppy, all his food on his own without a feeding tube. And, um, yeah, he’s, [00:22:00] he’s recovered. And meanwhile, Finnegan is very content in his role as like second best cat. [00:22:06] Sarah Johnson: [00:22:06] Yup. Yup. [00:22:07]Brett Terpstra: [00:22:07] Anyway, [00:22:08] Sarah Johnson: [00:22:08] Well, I’m glad you’re feeling better. [00:22:10] Brett Terpstra: [00:22:10] Yeah, me too. It’s it’s a huge relief. I was definitely facing his mortality. I’ve always faced his mortality. Cause I knew from the moment I decided that I loved him with a very full heart. I knew that that was, that had like an expiration date on it. So I’ve always prepared myself for that day, but I’m really relieved that that day isn’t yet. [00:22:34] Sarah Johnson: [00:22:34] Yeah, me too. Yeah. Oh man. You just hit something super profound that the risk of, of opening your heart means it might, it might get hurt, but man, it’s worth it. [00:22:47] Brett Terpstra: [00:22:47] I I’m not doing my own top three picks, but I have one I want to throw in and I’ll, sneak it in as we go, but I’ll let you start with your first pick [00:22:56]Sarah Johnson: [00:22:56] Okay. My first pick is, um, [00:23:00] let me see which one do I want to, my first pick is effective coping skills and in particular, the coping skill of asking for help. And so what I want to share is if. People it’s a good practice to ask for help when you need it. And people don’t always know what that means when you need it. [00:23:23] And so I want to define that. Um, if you don’t know how to do a thing or the thing in front of you exceeds your emotional bandwidth or both. You need help and that’s the time to ask for help. And that might be you Google a video that tells you how to change your bike tire, or you call somebody or you email someone, your texts, someone, right? [00:23:49] If in, in regard to your mental health, that’s a good time to call in somebody who’s a good support for you. And. Sometimes we don’t have somebody like that. And [00:24:00] sometimes it’s the middle of the night, or sometimes we feel like we’ve already kind of tapped on that person’s shoulder a few times. So I want to give you some national resources that people can use to call or text to get help anytime of the day or night when you need it. [00:24:13] So, um, Good news is in a couple of years, we’re going to have a national number. I believe it’s going to be nine, three, three. It’s not in place yet, but they’re there and the infrastructure. So at some point we just going to have a three number, a number that people can remember and anywhere in the country, they can, can use it to get help. [00:24:32] We don’t. Quite don’t quite have that yet. Two, one, one is in most parts of the County entry, but not everywhere. So know that, you know, you might want to try it out and see if you can call two, one, one and get someone locally. Um, Most communities have that, but I would instead, um, send you to the national suicide hotline, which is just a helpline for anyone. [00:24:55] You don’t have to necessarily have thoughts of, of suicide, um, to [00:25:00] call it’s just, if you are. Overwhelmed and exceeding your emotional bandwidth. Don’t know how to do a thing. They’re there to talk. And that number is 802 seven three talk. So (800) 273–8255. The other option is to text. So some people prefer texting. [00:25:20] So you can just text the word, talk to them. The number seven four one seven four one. So just text talk to seven, four, one seven four one. [00:25:30] Brett Terpstra: [00:25:30] Wow. Cool. Awesome. [00:25:33]Sarah Johnson: [00:25:33] Yeah, asking for help. It’s a good one. [00:25:36] Brett Terpstra: [00:25:36] that’s a heck of a first pick. [00:25:38] Sarah Johnson: [00:25:38] Thank you. [00:25:39] Brett Terpstra: [00:25:39] All right. What now might seem silly. Why don’t you go on with your second pick? [00:25:44]Sarah Johnson: [00:25:44] Well, my third one is, is, is more about levity. So my second one is my, my second pick is, uh, Uh, something that’s, it’s been around for awhile, not everybody’s aware of [00:26:00] it. Um, so I’m trying to spread the word. Um, and that is something called science. Um, [00:26:07] Brett Terpstra: [00:26:07] have heard the kids talking about this. [00:26:09] Sarah Johnson: [00:26:09] yeah. Yeah. The kids are really into it these days. Um, in particular, uh, You know, the science around health, of course. [00:26:19] Um, but I’m wanting to put a particular plug in for, um, social science. Um, I’m a social scientist. So, you know, I think about how people behave and how we think and how we act otherwise known as our mental health and. Uh, there’s a, a group that I’m involved with that I just cannot say enough about. They have changed the way I operate in so many ways and have given a scientific framework to what I’ve always. [00:26:49] Felt to be true. So they’re, they’re giving me some data around. Yes. It makes sense to treat people like they’re people and to meet people where they’re at. And it makes [00:27:00] sense to, to come together across sectors to do work. That is what it’s going to take to, to make these big systematic changes that we need. [00:27:10] Um, I did say systematic, I mean system, but, um, so I want to highlight the collective impact forum. It’s just a bunch of geniuses, just a bunch of geniuses sitting around and putting their genius thoughts in other people’s brains and helping communities across the globe. Actually, I think they’re, they have a national reach, um, to come together as communities to make real meaningful change. [00:27:40] And I, it, they just. I cannot say enough. Good things about them. So collective impact forum, I’m in the name of science. A I strongly encourage you if you are somebody who wants to make sure actual change in your communities, rather than just really doing work arounds and putting bandaids on [00:28:00] problems and perpetuating systems of oppression. [00:28:04] I encourage you to check out the collective impact forum. [00:28:07] Brett Terpstra: [00:28:07] awesome. Um, do you spend much time on YouTube? I know you do some video as part of your job, or at least you used to do those like mental health. I think it was something to that effect. [00:28:19] Sarah Johnson: [00:28:19] Yeah. [00:28:19] Brett Terpstra: [00:28:19] do you, do you spend much time watching YouTube? [00:28:22]Sarah Johnson: [00:28:22] Uh, I, I. Do not, but that reminds me, I mean, I do randomly, sometimes I’ll plug in like cute kitten video or something. Um, I don’t quite understand how YouTube works yet. So. Like all the kids are watching it like a TV channel and I’m like, I don’t, I’m not sure I don’t totally get that, but, but that does remind me, I should have answered the question you asked me about how do people learn about the, why I actually do have through our YMCAs, a YouTube channel called steady heads, open hearts. [00:28:54] And that’s a place where people can get actually get a lot of mental health information. That’s [00:29:00] content that I’ve. Uh, put together, as you mentioned, those mindful minutes, which are kind of on minute videos, one to two minute videos that just have a, a mindful practice. And then they’re done dinner table resilience series, which are three to four minute videos featuring a mental health piece of information. [00:29:16] And then an actual challenge or activity you can do either around your dinner table or with your friends or with your team at work or on zoom with your friends. Um, and then there’s also some hour long mental health webinars on there. So all of that content is free and available for folks, but what, what, what are you getting at with YouTube? [00:29:37] What are you watching on YouTube? [00:29:38] Brett Terpstra: [00:29:38] Some of my, like, I’ve just gotten into following specific channels relatively recently. And one of my favorite it’s to follow is called how to ADHD. And it’s been really helpful in kind of my own mental health journey. Um, I was just curious if there were any similar channels that you were a fan of, that you [00:30:00] would, that you would recommend getting into. [00:30:03] Sarah Johnson: [00:30:03] Hmm. No, you know what, at that I’ll take that as homework because. I am sure there are, um, I’ve my big, new technology thing besides zoom suddenly I’m like technology person at the Y with zoom and I’m like, that’s not accurate boy. Um, but my new like technology for Ray’s like, Oh, Instagram, you can, you can follow people who have good things to say. [00:30:29] So that’s my new thing. Um, but no, I don’t have any good ones on YouTube, but I’m going to check out how to ADHD. That sounds interesting. [00:30:36] Brett Terpstra: [00:30:36] it’s a, it’s a one, one girl, one woman who, uh, has a team that helps her research and provide very in depth looks at very particular topics, uh, that ADHD people face. So I recommend it’s easy to watch. They’re short. Um, all right. Third pick. [00:30:58]Sarah Johnson: [00:30:58] my third pick [00:31:00] is something that has been good for my mental health and for my. Geekiness. Um, and it’s a podcast that I can recommend, um, from vulture and it’s the good one podcast. And, uh, I love it so much on so many levels. So, um, essentially it’s the host. Who’s brilliant. Um, Jesse is just. So into comedy and does his homework so thoroughly, then he will invite a comedian to pick their favorite joke and then they dissect it. [00:31:40] So they play the joke and then they go through the thinking King and all the iterations with the joke and why it’s funny and why it’s, why it’s the joke they chose. And, um, [00:31:51] Brett Terpstra: [00:31:51] for jokes. [00:31:52] Sarah Johnson: [00:31:52] Yes, that’s correct exactly what it is. It’s so deeply satisfying. So great. [00:31:58] Brett Terpstra: [00:31:58] That’s nice. [00:31:59] Sarah Johnson: [00:31:59] was [00:32:00] both like, it makes me laugh and it’s also geeky. [00:32:03] And, you know, like I said, kind of sciency. [00:32:06]Brett Terpstra: [00:32:06] Yeah. I love it. The [00:32:07] Sarah Johnson: [00:32:07] It’s been a great distraction. Yeah. It’s been great distraction when I, at my brain’s too full of hard stuff, but I still want to have some kind of intellectual stimulation. So it’s been great. [00:32:19] Brett Terpstra: [00:32:19] well, here’s, here’s mine and I think it actually fits into that category on Netflix. There’s a show. I’m pretty sure it’s called love on the spectrum. [00:32:28]Sarah Johnson: [00:32:28] I just saw that it just came up as a recommendation for [00:32:31] Brett Terpstra: [00:32:31] it is just like, my heart is overflowing for these. These autistic people that are taking their first forays into dating. And, uh, like I, especially a lot of the guys act on the outside the way I always feel on the inside on a date. [00:32:53] Sarah Johnson: [00:32:53] Yeah. [00:32:54] Brett Terpstra: [00:32:54] on the outset, the awkwardness and the sincerity, uh, [00:33:00] is it’s it it’s delightful like w L and I are [00:33:04] Sarah Johnson: [00:33:04] That’s great. Sweet. I don’t [00:33:06] Brett Terpstra: [00:33:06] it makes you think it makes you reconsider a lot of your, your preconceived notions, not just about autistic people, but about your own, the way that you relate to other people. Uh, so there’s a thinking aspect to it, but at the same time, it’s, it’s a lighthearted fun look at, uh, heartwarming. I would call it heartwarming. [00:33:26]Sarah Johnson: [00:33:26] I’m going to have to check that out. That’s a good recommendation. [00:33:30] Brett Terpstra: [00:33:30] all right. So where can people find you specifically? [00:33:33]Sarah Johnson: [00:33:33] Uh, see, this is where I’m still not good at this part. Uh, how can people find it? What’s the best way to, for people, people can find me, um, So YouTube channel, so steady heads, open heart. [00:33:46] Brett Terpstra: [00:33:46] That’ll be linked in the notes. [00:33:48] Sarah Johnson: [00:33:48] Okay, perfect. Um, I am working on a website by working on a website. I mean, I have a domain, but I don’t know how to website, so I’ve got some work to do there, but that’ll be the joy [00:34:00] labs someday. [00:34:01] Um, How else can people, people can find me on Instagram. I’m not doing a whole lot except for listening and learning these days. Um, but, uh, it would be at I’m a life liver. So I am a L I F E L I V E R. So I am, as in no apostrophe, I’m a, uh, those are the ways, I guess, at this point, I think, I don’t know what are other ways that people find people. [00:34:30] Brett Terpstra: [00:34:30] Well, Twitter web, [00:34:32] Sarah Johnson: [00:34:32] Yeah, [00:34:34] Brett Terpstra: [00:34:34] yeah. [00:34:35] Sarah Johnson: [00:34:35] Twitter is so overwhelming to me. I don’t understand it. Okay. [00:34:39] Brett Terpstra: [00:34:39] tell you what though. We should definitely talk. I can help you get a quick WordPress website set up. No problem. [00:34:47] Sarah Johnson: [00:34:47] You know what? I got a domain and have it in Squarespace because they did the thing. Cause we did this weird commercial here. So I have. [00:34:56] Brett Terpstra: [00:34:56] rip off of a window owner rider commercial here. [00:34:58] Sarah Johnson: [00:34:58] 100%. [00:35:00] So this was their, you know, hazard pay. I don’t know what it would, but I looked at it and I’m like, I don’t know how to do this. So I, and then the pandemic hit. So it totally zapped any like technology tenacity I have, but I would love to try to get something put together. [00:35:19] I have lots of ideas. [00:35:21] Brett Terpstra: [00:35:21] All right. Well, thank you for taking the time. I know you have a lot to do. It’s great to hear from you. [00:35:27] Sarah Johnson: [00:35:27] I am so glad you asked me. And you know, actually people can email me@thejoylabsatgmail.com. That’s, that’s a thing it’s not like I’m going to get millions of emails, you know? Um, I would say though, if you’re, if you are having trouble with your mental health, if it’s feeling like a mental health crisis, don’t email me, please call somebody that you can get ahold of right away. [00:35:50] I just, I don’t check my email every day and I would hate for someone to be reaching out cause you weren’t doing well. And then you don’t hear from me for a bit. Um, so please be sure [00:36:00] to, to, um, reach out more locally. If you, if you have some, some struggles going on, please, please reach out. [00:36:07] Brett Terpstra: [00:36:07] that sounds great. Alright, well, thank you again, and I hope we talk again in less than five years. [00:36:14] Sarah Johnson: [00:36:14] I guess, can we make that a goal? I feel like that’s doable. [00:36:18] Brett Terpstra: [00:36:18] my top three. [00:36:19]Sarah Johnson: [00:36:19] Awesome. My two now just bumped, bumped something. [00:36:24] Brett Terpstra: [00:36:24] Right? [00:36:25]Sarah Johnson: [00:36:25] Thanks, Brett. Take care.

Mike Schramm is a Senior Research Manager at Interpret in Los Angeles, working on providing qualitative research for the video game industry. He returns to Systematic to talk with Brett about his history with writing and gaming and how the two have intersected in meaningful ways. Sponsor Thanks to ExpressVPN for sponsoring today’s show. ExpressVPN lets you tell Netflix, YouTube, Amazon Prime and many others that you’re in a different country, allowing you to watch streaming shows and movies not available in the US (or wherever you happen to be). Visit ExpressVPN.com/systematic to get an additional 3 months for free. Show Links mikeschramm.com @mikeschramm on Twitter Interpret Research Systematic’s First Episode eedar Super Mario World Camera Logic Review Thinking Fast and Slow Mythic Quest itch.io bundle for racial equality PAX South RSS Top 3 Picks AI Dungeon Twine notion Roam Research Visible Bridges with Ted Nelson Legends of Tomorrow DC's Legends of Tomorrow 3×18 Last Fight Scene "The Good, The Bad and The Cuddly" Doom Patrol The Boys Devs Thanks! Thanks to ExpressVPN! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes at systematicpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff on all social media platforms, and follow Systematic at @systmcast on Twitter. Transcript Systematic 235 [00:00:00]Brett: [00:00:00] So Mike, how are you doing? Mike: [00:00:03] I’m doing good. Hello. Thank you for having me on this. the second, season, this return, I’m excited Brett: [00:00:09] yeah. So you were the very first guest on systematic eight, eight years ago. Almost exactly. Eight years ago. It’s been a long time. Mike: [00:00:19] I was very flattered when you asked me to be the first guest on the very first episode. And I’m now also very flattered, even more flattered, I would say to be asked back to be the first guest on the second season. So I think it’s great. And it’s interesting because we both worked on T way w for a long time, and I don’t know if you were like this, but I was like, I put a lot of stuff out there in the world and like was very active online. And lately I have not been. And I’ve also been like, man, interesting. I wonder if I went back online or if I started putting more stuff out there, what it would look like or how it would work. So I’m excited that you’re tackling this again in a, with more energy. Brett: [00:00:55] hopefully more energy I ate. Okay. First I have [00:01:00] to make a confession. I let Merlin Mann slip in before you in the lineup. So you’re actually season two, episode two. Mike: [00:01:09] That’s fine. Merlin Mann will draw much more of an audience than I will we’ll so that makes complete Brett: [00:01:13] he also just scheduled before you, so I Mike: [00:01:16] Oh, well, he’s very, he’s probably more productive than I’d think. So that makes sense. He he’s able to sneak in and drop in the schedule Brett: [00:01:22] But yeah, I took, it was just going to be a couple months. I just needed a break. I felt like. I felt like I was putting a lot of effort into making shows and I wasn’t loving it anymore. And then that couple months turned into over a year before I finally got the bug again and thought, you know, I really miss doing that. So it felt good to get back to it. Mike: [00:01:47] Yeah. Yeah. I took a very specific hiatus because, so whatever nine years ago now, whenever I write, when I left TYW or right when I walked away from blogging, I was looking for, well, I was bogging with [00:02:00] you for awhile. And I was writing on TBW and writing and a couple of other places. And then I was like, this is great. And I love this job and this is awesome, but I need benefits. I need, and I need insurance. It’s like, I need, I need some sort of setup here. So I started looking around for a job and I looked around for a job long time. And I finally found a job in, with the company eedar doing research for video games. Cause that’s what I’ve been writing for so long. And back then, I was like, well, I will just kind of like go away a little bit, but I’ll still have Twitter and I was still kind of keep in touch with people. But then I changed my website as well, so right around 2016 then, when Trump had, I was like, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, internet really shook me up a lot. I was like kind of shaken by that whole thing by how Facebook was used and how social networking was used. And I was like, kind of like very shocked by it. And it was interesting to me because. It’s something that I had. And it’s about three years after I started stopped writing online, basically. But I was like, I really had ended and being online and I invested in social network [00:03:00] and I had shared, met a bunch of great people, including you through all those different sites and all that networking stuff. And I was really struck by what, what had happened in that election and what is still happening today. Like what’s still going on with all that stuff. And I sort of stepped away and I actually deleted a bunch of old archives, not deleted them, but took them all offline and like redid my website where it’s very simple and straightforward. but I agree that like recently I’ve been like, I think there is a place or a way for me to be more public and be online. And I’ve been thinking about like maybe a Patreon podcast or just a blog or something like that. Like I’ve been thinking about coming back to, so, uh, it’s interesting. I wonder if that’s a larger theme or a larger thing that’s going on, but Brett: [00:03:37] well, it’s, it’s a weird time with all of the protests and the pandemic. It’s a weird time to feel like my voice needs to be heard. Why do I think I matter right now? I don’t know. it’s not, I, I’m not doing it for, I don’t know what I’m doing it for now. You’re making me question my motives. Mike: [00:03:57] No, no, no, I don’t mean to make you question your motives, [00:04:00] but I have been a question questioning motives as well. Like I actually, I literally have written a blog post that I was going to post on my site and I also had that same feeling of like, well, how necessary is this? Like, do I need to be another dude? Blogging online. Do I need to say this thing? Do people even care? Like, do people even know me? Does anyone care about the day, the old days like me or is there even, cause when I first started, no one did know me and I just did it. Cause it was something I really enjoyed doing and I really liked it and I still like doing it, but I just don’t, I don’t want to, I don’t know. I want to. I do want to reapproach it in the, in, you know, I want to get back to blogging and I want to get back to sharing stuff, but I don’t want to do it in the way that I did it when I was younger, which is just get everything out there and get my name out there and get in front of everybody. So I’m trying to do it in a more interesting way, but I’m really. Kind of struggling with that. Like how do I do it in a way that I think is valuable, that I think is helpful, but, uh, but you know, make sure that I make sure that, you know, let other people’s voices speak [00:05:00] and make sure that we’re going in the right direction and not just like rebuilding the same thing. I don’t know. I’ve been struggling with these issues a lot lately, too. So it’s interesting too. I was, when I saw your invite to do this, I was like, Oh, awesome. Uh, because I’ve also been thinking the same thing. So. But that said your work has always been really helpful and really, you know, all of the stuff that you’ve released and all the stuff that you’ve done has always been very much focused on improving people’s lives and making it better. So I think you’re more justified Brett: [00:05:26] that’s very Mike: [00:05:26] in what you’re doing and I think, but Brett: [00:05:28] All right. Mike: [00:05:29] my thing will say, go ahead. Brett: [00:05:31] the, uh, the topic that I think is the most obvious and also the most intriguing to me that comes up when, uh, w reading about you is gaming. I feel like that’s you live and breathe gaming and it’s kind of fascinating to me because like we started gaming at the same time in the same age. Like for me, it was on a monochrome, piece the earth. No, I guess my [00:06:00] first computer was a PC junior, which did have 16. Colors. Um, but like we started with Oregon trail and I was into jump man, and I played a lot of games back then, but yeah, I didn’t, well, I never got an Nintendo. Like that’s where it ended for me. I never had a game. Boy, I wanted a game boy, but that wasn’t happening in my house. Um, and from there, I play a lot of games on my phone now, but I don’t have the relationship with it that I think anyone who would call themselves a game or does. So I’m curious about the relationship that you have with gaming. Uh, it’s obviously been a meaningful part of your life. So tell me a bit about what, what, what exactly it means to you. Mike: [00:06:46] For sure. So I started on a Tandy color computer. My dad, uh, brought one home from one day from work. He, he bought her from a friend at work. He worked at, uh, McDonald Douglas, which is not Boeing and st. Louis, although he’s, he’s long since retired. Uh, and [00:07:00] my family what’s interesting is that I was adopted. Uh, I, my, my family, we have three kids, me and my brother and my sister. I was the only one who was adopted. And then my parents had my brother and my sister biologically afterwards. And for some reason I have always been super interested in gaming and no one else in the family has ever had the same interest. So I think, I think that’s part of it is from the very beginning I was. Fascinated by games and fascinated by computers and like technology. And for some reason, I don’t know if it is just nature, nurture, whatever happened, but I kind of staked out that space in my family. And I think looking back I’m like, that’s why, you know, one reason why I was so engaged with it and so interested in it. I, I tell the story. Sometimes my, my parents, uh, when I was very young, my parents were like, we understand that you like games, uh, and we support you for that, but we are never going to buy you games, or we’re never going to support that. Cause we think it’s a waste of time, which maybe sounds mean maybe that’s. You know, looking back sounds mean, but, but at that, but what did it did in me has made me like, how can [00:08:00] I get this? How can I, how can I get into gaming? I bought a GameBoy on my own. I’ve saved up money and picked it up when I was really young and just loved that played games nonstop on it. Um, and then as I, as I’ve gotten older, obviously, like when I started blogging, I was blogging specifically about games to start. And so then it became like, you know, I. I started working as a writer first, but as quickly as I worked as a freelance writer, you know, I started working for a paper in Chicago called new city, the Chicago, which I don’t think it’s an all weekly. I don’t know if he’s still going on. I think the website’s gone. I think they’re all done now, but, uh, but I would go, I would write about a bunch of different events, but the, but one day I pitched, uh, there was a S. Game studio. So I was also working at a PR firm in downtown Chicago, and I was writing press releases for them. And then, uh, in on the floor, right above was a studio called wide load games, which is a former owner of bungee was running that studio. And I went to the newspaper that I was interning at and I was like, Hey, yeah, The studio is here. They’re Chicago based like, can I write a story about a Chicago based game [00:09:00] studio? And I said, sure, great. And that’s the first time I remember that? I was like, Oh, I could write about games. Like I could just specifically write about games the whole time and really kind of combined my career and my gaming stuff. And then the older I’ve gotten, the more I see, you know, gaming is connected to psychology. It’s connected to who we are as human beings. It’s, you know, it’s all about perceptions and. I’m reading, thinking fast and slow recently and getting into in, into the, all that type of thinking. But yeah, and then, you know, in my work, so I, I, when I left, TYW, when I left, uh, joystick, I started working for a firm called ITAR. It’s called electronic entertainment, design and research. And when I first got hired there, I did what we called mock reviews. So I basically wrote. About what the press would say about games. So, you know, before a game came out, I was able to give them a heads up. I’m like, this is what the press will think about it. And this is what people will think. And I got very good at like looking at a game and yeah. Telling what could work and what wouldn’t work and how things would go, you know, how people would connect with then how people would understand it. And [00:10:00] that led me to just like, you know, Evolutionarily, like what drives us? What’s our, what’s our interest. What? No, w in a game, if you want to show the way forward, you put a light on it, and that’s such a core evolutionary thing. Like we go towards the light, we go towards spaces that are more well lit. And like that stuff that really got me thinking about like, well, how do we connect up to what humans and all that stuff. So, so yeah, gaming started as. Something, I was super fascinated by as a kid and something that I just couldn’t get enough of. And over time it has become more of the study of like, how, how, how do people interact both with each other and with the, whatever they see, like, how do they interact with the world? How do our perceptions she’s governed what we choose to do? And how would you say go? And I don’t know, maybe that’s too big, but I like thinking in those big terms, Brett: [00:10:44] did. So. So when you, at the point where you combined your professional life and your love of gaming for a lot of people that would have gone sideways. Um, you would have ended up liking one or the other less because of the [00:11:00] combination, but it sounds like that combination actually just strengthened your love of gaming. Mike: [00:11:05] Yeah, I think what I was able to do because I started, so I actually was working at retail when I first started writing for wow. Insider insider is the first blog that I started writing for. And that was within the AOL group there. Um, and I was working retail during the day and I was going home at night and writing. So it was like, It was part of the fun, part of the fun was going home and writing every night. Like I would think about stories or thinking about things to write during the day, and then I would go home and write. So that was really beneficial that it wasn’t like my main job to begin with. Like it was sort of a hobby that built up. And then I think the other thing is that over time, I, I just. I built it up very gradually. So initially I was writing for wow. Insider in the evenings and working retail during the day. Then I was able to work on two different blogs. Wow. Insider and TBW. And that gave me enough to like go full time freelance and just work on my own. And then when I left those Boggs, I was like, well, I love blogging. I love this job. It’s just that I [00:12:00] need health insurance. So I really had the time to look for a job that I liked and looked for a company that I like. And that’s when I found EDA, I actually had applied to. Five or six different places before. And either I didn’t want to work there. They didn’t want me to work there. So I think that the benefit of having, and I know it’s a benefit and speaking of voices, I know it’s a privileged position to be for sure. And I’m very lucky to be in the position. Um, but, but I I’ve been able to like, Take steps. At each point in my career, I’ve been able to take steps that I really felt were the right steps to take. I almost never have had the, the I’ve always had the luxury, three of choosing the next thing to do. I almost never had to like jump into the next thing to do because I had to jump into it. So I know that very fortunate position to be in. And I, but I mean, I’ve also worked as hard as I possibly could for it, but I also know, you know, who knows. I, I it’s, it’s, it’s definitely, uh, certainly there’s probably privileged that I’ve benefited from in that sense, but. That’s why I think it’s worked so well in terms of keeping the hobby interesting. And also [00:13:00] keeping it professional is that I’ve been able to balance pretty well, like what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it. Um, but, uh, yeah, I mean, you also have, have done a lot of that stuff too. You’ve been made some smart choices about where to go and what to do and Brett: [00:13:13] I’ve made some, I’ve made some, uh, I had the privilege of voluntarily leaving a six figure job Mike: [00:13:21] right, right. That’s a privileged Brett: [00:13:22] It is, it really is like to have the option to risk things like that. Um, to have that job in the first place. Yeah. Mike: [00:13:31] Sure. And when I was working retail, I was eating ramen. Like I saved my money. And, and when I, when I jumped off to, to be full time freelance, like that was a gutsy thing to do to say, I’m just gonna work from home and just write for these blogs the whole time. And as you probably know, working at AOL, there were a couple of times where they were like, we can’t really pay you guys this month and we don’t, we don’t know what your job is going to be like. So I I’ve taken risks for sure, but Brett: [00:13:54] I don’t think, I don’t think they ever, of course I never wrote so much that I cost a [00:14:00] lot for AOL to keep me around as a writer. And then once I was actually working on the other side of the blogs on the development side, Yeah, the paychecks are pretty. Paychecks are really steady there. Um, but, uh, let’s see. So this random question came to mind. did you watch mythic quest? Mike: [00:14:22] I did watch mythic quest. Uh, it, that has been interesting. So when I was writing for joystick and writing for TUAW obviously I was very much on the outside. I was very much writing about stuff as much as possible. And like, I think you and I are also pretty lucky in that we were ready for TUAW, right when the iPhone was taking off. And we, we really, I mean, I, I feel like I got a front row seat to a really interesting time. Uh, and, and I was writing about. IPhone games before there was an app store. Like I remember writing a post about like, here’s how Apple should handle the app store. And I’m not going to take credit for the app store, but, but certainly I was in a good [00:15:00] spot to like share some of that stuff. And we know people at Apple were reading. So I feel really lucky to be, I want to do that. Um, so yes, but then as I moved into the more, the publisher side of things, so I don’t, we don’t publish games, the company that, so I worked for a company called eedar. eedar got bought by NPD, which is kind of a big data Nielsen type competitor. Uh, and I worked for NPD for a couple of years because they had basically acquired, eedar, and then earlier this year I moved back back to LA and I’m currently working for a research company called interpret. So interpret is a little bit more focused on just video game research, NPD. A big company that sells data for a lot of different industries, including books and toys, and also like CPG, which is consumer packaged goods and all this other stuff. Um, so I’ve kind of moved back into games in January and I’m working for this great company in LA called interpret. And we do a lot of great work. Uh, none of the clients I can mention, but they’re all on the website. It’s all very secret work, but. I will say that, uh, as I moved into more of this research role and more of this industry specific role, as opposed to like a [00:16:00] journalism role, uh, I have gotten much more insight into how studios work and how things go down like that. I will say that some of this stuff fun, mythic quest is true. There’s a lot of ego, obviously in any creative field and video games is no exception for sure. Uh, and yes, sexism is, uh, I mean, again, I, I say it pretty, pretty, uh, uh, lightly, but yeah. But sexism is a huge issue. You know, Ubisoft has had a bunch of problems in the, in the past few weeks here and there trying to adjust things and make changes as best they can. And great, like everyone should, and there certainly are still video game studios out there where sexism runs rampant and, and is a real problem. So. So it’s definitely an issue. Uh, I will say too, like some of it is overblown. I think a lot of the, the, you know, the, the people who actually work on art and people actually design stuff. Like they, they really want to be creative and they really are devoted to the job and all that stuff. But, uh, but no, I mean, it’s pretty dead on, I can’t disagree with anything. We did anything [00:17:00] in there. I really liked that. Megan Ganz. I think she’s the, uh, she’s one of the creators, one of the writers on there. I think she, she brings a great voice to the show too. I think. I think having that, that sort of main character for her, it seems like a great voice in there too. Go ahead. Brett: [00:17:13] The, uh, the subplot that, that I enjoyed the most was the couple that started the game studio with the really dark idea of a game where you couldn’t, what was it like? All you could do is run from monsters. And you had a flashlight. I don’t remember the name of the game or the name of the studio, but that the, the kind of the, the journey of an indie game through becoming a massive hit and losing all creative control. And that, that felt true to me. Like I have no experience on either side of the gaming industry, but that felt, it felt like it was coming from a place of truth for whoever wrote that. Mike: [00:17:55] Sure. No, I think, you know, one of the great things about gaming right now is [00:18:00] that in the past couple of years, it has become easier than ever to make a game. It used to be around the, you know, when we started playing a game, it was extremely complicated to make a game. You had to program physics, you had to understand high level math. You had to build your own engine and do all that stuff. These days. Anybody can consider it down. If you have an idea for a game, you can sit down over a couple of weekends and you can probably put together a prototype. That’s pretty close to your idea. Um, and as a result, there’s lots of amazing games out there. You know, the, the itchio, uh, bundled for racial equality was released recently and it’s got 7,000 great games in it. They’re all little indie games, just go to itchio and you can find a bunch of great games there. Um, and, but that said, you know, that’s, that’s all great, but it’s only operating at a specific level. I don’t, it’s only operating like below us, you know, there’s not as. So much money there it’s, it’s only the real giant hits that make any money in terms of that type of space. So to make a very popular and very successful game, you really need to [00:19:00] like, you know, uh, follow certain conventions and you need to make sure, you know, you’re aiming for such again, talking about the, the core human experience. You’re aiming for such a wide audience that you need to make sure that anyone who sits down to look at your game immediately understands what’s happening and immediately understands what’s going on. And that’s the thing like Fortnite, you look at a game like Fortnite. Which is hugely successful. And if you play it, it’s, it’s very understandable. Like it’s not necessarily your speed. It’s not specific to what you want or what you’re looking for or your sentiment, but it is very understandable and it isn’t very accessible and very straightforward. Um, so yeah, once, you know, a lot of people inter gaming or a lot of companies start out making like the game that they want to make and the game that they really have an interest in and. You know, my company sometimes, uh, you know, w you know, one thing we do is provide feedback to help games be better and help games and be more successful. And I wouldn’t say that I try to crush anyone’s dream or anything like that, but definitely there are, you know, if you’re going for. Such a wide audience, you need to make sure that certain things are accessible and certain [00:20:00] things are clear. And, uh, if your goal is to scare or frighten or confused, the player, people don’t necessarily want that out of a game or want to do that. So it’s like, you know, it’s the same old artistic commercial balance that people would have to keep all the time. Unfortunately. So. Um, but yeah, that episode was great. And I liked that the episode was so different from the rest of the show too. I liked that they sort of took a risk and, uh, told this little story, just combined story in that specific episode. Brett: [00:20:27] so I know enough about film and television to be really annoying to people when I’m watching films and television with them. Um, like I, it makes me enjoy, like, knowing. How the sausage is made, makes me enjoy them more, but it makes me insufferable to some other people. However, too, it sounds to me like playing games with you would actually be a more entertaining experience. I feel like you bring, uh, a certain amount of fascination to [00:21:00] it. Mike: [00:21:01] Sure. Uh, Brett: [00:21:03] is just me complimenting you. Mike: [00:21:05] I was, yeah, I was gonna say yes. Is the answer to that. I know. I, and I thought about that. So obviously the work that I do, you know, it’s all very confidential. I work for companies. I work on games before they come out and I can’t really talk much about what I do or, you know, not necessarily what I do, but like, I can’t talk to them much about who I’m working with or who I’m working for because a lot of the stuff. Stuff. Now, now I am working on giant games and the odds are good that if you play a bunch of games, you’ve probably played things I’ve worked on. So I’m happy about that. But when we provide research to a company it’s designed to help them not tell anybody else what’s going on or things like that. But that said, man, I, yeah, I would love sometimes, you know, I would love someday to have the ability to sit down and like talk about a game. So I did a panel at PAX South a couple of years ago where we played games live in the panel and talked about them. It was me and a couple of other game journalists, and we talked about them as we were playing them. And yes, I love. Spotting little details that [00:22:00] developers and put it into game to help you understand, like even there’s a great video on YouTube of the super Mario camera, the super Mario world camera and how detailed it is in terms of moving the camera around the screen. When you’re playing, you notice none of that, you’re just playing along and Mario is always in the right place on screen, and you’ll always know where he’s headed, but if you actually look at the mechanics of how the camera works, it’s very detailed and very. Uh, intelligently designed in terms of how the camera is moving around and how, you know, the sense of movement that it creates. And I love stuff like that. I love little details and games, and there’s a lot of stuff that developers do, uh, that really, you know, allow players to understand what they’re doing. And I talk about this too. So I do improv as well. And, uh, with improv, it’s interesting, although that’s a fad, that’s kind of going away as well. Now we’re getting old Brett: [00:22:47] I feel, I feel like it comes and goes Mike: [00:22:49] Yeah. And maybe it’ll come back again. But I feel like all of the stuff that we were really excited about now, kids are like, eh, the iPhone’s a hold. All this stuff is dumb. Uh, but, uh, uh, improv, I always say like, [00:23:00] uh, to get really good at improv, you usually have to take like weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks of classes. And usually wouldn’t improv, I’ve taught a little bit of improv and when people teach improv, they say, when you first start doing it, you’re great because you don’t think about it. Your head’s not in it. You just kind of do whatever you want. And you’re great and it’s super fun. And then your head starts getting into it. And then you start thinking about what you’re doing and you start overthinking and then it starts getting clumsy. And then you have to like train yourself to get back to that initial, like innocence that you had, or that initial play that you had. But the thing about improv is that you can take years and years and years of training to do it, but to watch it takes no training at all. The stuff that you’re seeing on stage during an improv show, you pick up on it immediately, you pick up on when things feel weird or when people don’t connect, you pick up on it. When it’s not funny, or when things don’t work, you don’t need training to do that. And that’s the same thing with games. You could train to make a game and make a brilliant game. Like Dale could GMO, you could. You could train and train and train to like, understand how he guides the player’s attention and how he bounces things and does all that type of stuff. But to play the [00:24:00] game, you need no training, it just works. It just connects up with what you’re, what you’re doing. And I see, you know, obviously speaking to someone who wrote with me on T way, w that’s. That’s Apple’s philosophy the whole time. It’s just work. It’s just something that you and good software as well. Like it’s just supposed to, you know, the developer takes care of all of that stuff in the background. You just understand from moment to moment to moment what you’re supposed to do. So, Brett: [00:24:22] yeah. Yeah. The, it just works philosophy. I feel like we should, for the sake of listeners, uh, who aren’t old enough to UAW was the unofficial Apple web blog. Uh, and it was a name Apple didn’t like, uh, Mike: [00:24:39] Yeah. Cause it had Apple technically in it. Although I think AOL downplayed the w they went for the acronym by the end of it, but go ahead. Brett: [00:24:47] Yeah. But yeah, so that was, that was actually where I met Mike was, uh, writing at, at TUAW or as some, some writers called it TUwow. Which I don’t understand that [00:25:00] pronunciation, but Mike: [00:25:01] I think it was fun. Brett: [00:25:02] Mike likes to say to you a w because he likes all those syllables, that’s more syllables than just saying no unofficial is okay. Fair Mike: [00:25:11] To, uh, I, I think I, I think I helped Victor invent TUAW and then I just made fun of it. I always think. It’s T UAW, but yeah, I don’t know, like that’s the thing is like, we, I wouldn’t say we were, you know, the biggest site in the world, but we certainly had a community that really liked us. And occasionally in my, even in my current game industry thing, I’ll mention, Oh, I used to work on, on joystick or even WOW Insider, or sometimes I used to work on WOW insider and people go, Oh, so there’s some awareness there, but yeah, it’s like this thing that we did that used to exist and then the world changed and things changed and now it doesn’t exist anymore. And I, I think we’re also headed. You can tell me what you think about this. I think we’re headed back towards. Blogging, obviously, like, I think we’re headed back towards like, well written individual posts. You know, I think we, we, you know, [00:26:00] Facebook and the pivot to video, that’s all coming up nowadays. And, and certainly a lot of blogs, I kind of exited the blogging scene. Right as the pivot to video type of thing happened. But I think that there’s an email newsletters are coming back, email newsletters are getting more and more popular. And I think people are really excited about like specific voices or specific groups, not huge. Social networks, but specific groups. I don’t know. What do you think about that? Do you think blogging is a thing that might return or, Brett: [00:26:24] I think idealistically, I want to say yes. Um, my traffic on my blog, uh, despite having more name recognition now than I did 10 years ago, my traffic is. It peaked and then has dwindled since, um, it’s, it’s harder and harder to sell advertising, on blogs or in podcasts. Aren’t, aren’t an easy sell either. Um, I feel like most of the Patreon money goes to video producers and, uh, And the occasional podcast, or I shouldn’t say [00:27:00] occasional to have saturated market, but, um, I, I medium demonstrates, I think that individual voices still matter in, in writing, um, But medium is as a whole, not, it’s not a blog, you know, it’s not even individual blogs. It’s a conglomerate, but Mike: [00:27:20] That’s true. Yeah, Brett: [00:27:21] I, I really hope I still read blogs. I still use an RSS reader every day. Mike: [00:27:27] I do too. I think kids are assessed is really simple syndication. It’s it’s a, it’s a way to read, read blogs. Oh man. I don’t know how many kids you have listening to this, but we’ll explain everything. We’ll go. We’ll go to your level. At some point, millennials. Brett: [00:27:42] Um, so do, do you, uh, do you still write at all? Mike: [00:27:47] I do. I mean, as much as I’m not writing online, I, uh, well, I will say that I don’t write finished stuff. I have been taking up journaling the past few years and I write a [00:28:00] lot of stuff in terms of a journal. And I’ve also been like more interested as I get older, I guess, in keeping track of where I’ve been and what I’ve done. Uh, I’ve done a lot and I’m really excited about all this stuff I’ve done and all the stuff I’m currently doing, even, even though it’s not as public as it used to be. But, uh, so, and I think just it’s, I think everybody does this as you get older, you kind of like go, well, what’s my life mean? And where’s my life headed and what am I doing? So I, I have been like, uh, just personally writing a bunch of things and keeping track of stuff. And, uh, I’m always working on a book or two, like I’m only just trying to put ideas into file and. Usually I over judge everything and I ha I, you know, I don’t think it’s worth sharing after the fact, but maybe someday. And I do want to start a blog. I mean, I do, I have my website and I have a blog set up. I just, and like I said, I have a couple of posts that I have ready to roll and I have ideas, but I just want to make sure, I dunno. Like I, uh, when I. I don’t know. I want to make sure that when I put stuff out there, Hey, I now kind of have a job to protect. Like I need to make sure that I, you know, I, when I was a [00:29:00] blogger, I could put whatever I wanted, because that was my whole thing. But now it’s like, well, I need to make sure that I’m not endangering my job in this culture in this time. Not that I would say anything offensive, but you know, who knows what happens. And then I also, uh, I also know, yeah, I don’t want to contribute to, we live in an era of misinformation. We live in an era of everyone yelling. Their opinion as loud as possible all the time. And I don’t want to just yell another opinion out into the, into the ether. I don’t think that’s helpful. I don’t think that’s useful for anybody. I don’t think it’s useful at all. It’s selfish of me to just be like, okay, I’m going to do this, but that said too. When I first started writing it wasn’t even at the newspaper. The first thing I started writing was my own personal site. I just posted every day. And that’s how I kind of like got into the habit of writing and got into the rhythm of writing. And I didn’t do that to make anything happen. I didn’t do it with a whole career in mind. I did it because it was like, this is fun. I like putting stuff up. I like seeing responses to it. I like seeing people interact with it. And, and [00:30:00] now it’s like, I almost. I think I’m overthinking it. I almost think I’m like, well, what should the voice be and what would be most helpful? And it’s like, maybe that’s maybe I need to just do it. Like maybe I need to just say, well, I don’t know if this is helpful or not, but I need to, I feel this drive to do it. And I’m just going to put stuff out. And if you’re angry at it, tell me, or if you don’t like it, tell me, and I’ll figure out from there. But I dunno, maybe I need to take that risk again and just say, let’s put, let’s put stuff out there and see what happens. But. Brett: [00:30:25] did you know that most of the stuff you ever wrote for weblogs is still there? Mike: [00:30:30] Uh, yes, I’m still on Engadget. I can still look at my old joystick posts on and gadget. Uh, and, and you, uh, kindly when TUAW was when, well, I think when TUAW was shutting down, you kindly wrote some scripts to pull as many posts as possible. So I still have, uh, archives at most everything I’ve written. Uh, not that Brett: [00:30:49] it’s surprised a bunch of other TUAW writers to find out that their articles still existed on the internet. They thought they were all gone rendered down to markdown files on their own computers. Mike: [00:30:59] No. [00:31:00] Well, now that now we’re all Engadget writers, so, Brett: [00:31:02] Right, right. Mike: [00:31:03] is a, still a blog that’s still alive. So, uh, no, I, I, and I’m not surprised by that at all, AOL. I mean, they, they should use the whole Buffalo. Why not? Brett: [00:31:13] yeah, I mean, they, they paid a good $10 for most of those posts. Mike: [00:31:16] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I also know we’re not the contract that I signed, uh, said that they own the post for 90 days. After that I could do whatever I wanted with them. I always understood that if I wanted to publish it, not that he would have ever wanted, but I probably wouldn’t publish a book of my best posts. I could do that. So technically I don’t even know if they own those posts that they’re putting up, but it’s fine by me. Brett: [00:31:36] I didn’t read that contract. Mike: [00:31:37] Yeah, I S I S the contract that I have says we owned it, or AOL had rights for 90 days. And then after that, it was technically back to me. So technically I own that content, but yeah, you know, I’m never going to, I would never tell AOL to take them down and I benefit more from having an Engadget byline and all that stuff, but. Uh, but yeah, so it’s still there and I’m proud of it. I’m very proud of what we [00:32:00] did. I think TBW was a great site. I think you did great work. I think Mike Rose and Kelly and, and, uh, Steve and Victor and everybody that worked on TUAW. I think we did, we, Oh, Dave Kalo, and I’m going to miss a bunch of people, but everybody did great work. Uh, Erica. Yeah. Even, uh, uh, Brett: [00:32:16] even Mike: [00:32:17] she had her. Well, she had her own tone. She very much was like doing her own thing and still doing her own thing. And she wouldn’t argue with that at all, but, uh, but, uh, but yeah, I think we, I think we did terrific work and I’m proud of it. It’s just, like I said, the world, we were a very, it was a very specific moment in time. I think like a very, you know, we, it was, it was the time where people wanted journalism and one of those insights and mainstream journalism didn’t have the capability to give those insights and we did, and it was great. So, Brett: [00:32:45] I don’t remember how it happened, but, uh, last month we had a, an accidental to our zoom meet up. Mike: [00:32:54] I heard about that, uh, after the fact, I don’t know. Brett: [00:32:57] I’ll make sure you get invited to the next one. If it [00:33:00] Mike: [00:33:00] I don’t know what, I, I don’t know what I contribute. I don’t want to, I don’t want to invade too much cause there are thing on TUAW. So I took to you not, not because I didn’t want to, cause I really did love Apple and I really didn’t want to want to like write about it and understand them and understand the company. And I, I do think I still have a fairly clear understanding the company, but, um, But I took TUAW because I wanted to get out of my current day job. I wanted to write full time freelance. I wanted to work from home and write full time freelance and with just WOW Insider with just Joystiq. I couldn’t do it when I got TUAW, when I was able to write at TUAW that’s when I had enough money that I could say, Oh, right, okay. And I remember the day it’s one of the best days of my life. It was a Sunday and all my friends hung out with a bunch of friends and they were like, they all had to go back to work the next day. And I was like, I do not. I get to wake up, walk to my computer and just start writing blog posts. And, uh, I really enjoy doing that. So yeah, I’m, I’m very proud of that, but yeah, it, it definitely, uh, even as I was leaving it, because became very tough for Tiwi, Toby and all of the AOL blogs beyond like in gadget [00:34:00] and auto blogger, where you read of the top blogs, where it became very tough for able to justify keeping those up and keeping those running in the same way that they were. Unfortunately. Yeah. Brett: [00:34:09] Alright. Well that brings us to the top three picks. Mike: [00:34:13] All right. I picked three things. Your listeners, I would assume are extremely savvy and I’m a little scared of, uh, bringing them things that they’ve already heard about. But I have three things that, uh, I think either probably not new, but at least will direct your attention to, I have two of them that I think are actually interesting and actually helpful. And I have one that is completely selfish and I just want to mention, I think is fun. So, Brett: [00:34:35] and with that, Mike: [00:34:36] And the first one is, uh, the AI dungeon. Have you heard of AI dungeon? Brett: [00:34:42] have not. Mike: [00:34:43] Alright, GPT three is a, uh, I’m not an expert at AI, but GPT three is the latest iteration of the open AI initiative, which is an open source AI that is best in class for open source. I’m sure it does not compare to what [00:35:00] the high level companies are using, but it’s. It’s the best in class open source AI, you can come across, uh, there’s a game called AI dungeon that the newest version of it uses the GPT three engine or the DPT three, whatever the term is, the GPT three structure, whatever. And, uh, it is. To me incredible. Now it’s a text adventure. So if you’re used to playing graphical games, it may, you know, it’s already a throwback and it is not perfect. If you play it for five, 10 minutes, you will start to see the flaws and start to see all the stuff in it. But the, basically it is an age, the guy that builds a text adventure as you play it, right. Essentially, you can tell the game anything, and it will build out the story and tell and respond to you to whatever you want to do. So if you want to cast a spell, you can tell what spell you want to cast, and it will tell you what happens when you cast that spell. If you want to go talk to a King, if you want to go talk to a beggar, if you want to go talk to a maiden, you can do it. And it is an [00:36:00] AI built. Text adventure that, you know, in the past, there have been some AI text adventures that have just been okay. This one is the one that has been the best I’ve seen. It is really phenomenal. And I’ve always had throughout all my work in gaming, I have this, this idea, this like golden idea that’s been sitting in my head and I’ll share it because ideas are free. Uh, implementation is the hard part. Um, but I’ve had this idea of like a game that just responded to the way that you interacted with it. So like Skyrim. If you play the elder school of Skyrim, there’s a whole world for you to want around it and you can go do whatever you want, but the world doesn’t change. The world’s persistent from game to game to game, you wander on the map, the cholesterol pre-written like, it’s all persistent, but I think no man’s sky has messed around with procedural generation and procedural. Things like that. There is a few where we will play a world run by an AI that will basically generate itself according to what we do. So if you want to go pick flowers and Skyrim, the game will generate more types of things. Flowers and more types of flowers to find, if you want to fight enemies, the game will generate more types of enemies. And if you play a certain way, it’ll [00:37:00] generate enemies that counteract that play style or support that play style. If you want to talk to people, it will generate more and more people to talk to. And more and more people that talk about. And if you want to read books, it’ll create more books like it’s an ever, you know, the AI that AI will, AI is going to change a lot of things, but it’s definitely going to change game creation and game development. And AI dungeon is the first iteration I’ve seen at that. That really makes me excited about what AI generation looks like and what it’s going to be right now. It takes a lot of people, a lot of time to create a lot of different models for a game like Skyrim or game like the Witcher or things like that. But in the future, You will tell an AI, this is a table and the AI will kick back 600 tables in different ways and different types of the structure and things like that. So check out AI dungeon VA. There is actually a pay level to it like that. You can pay to actually play it for a long time, but there is a demo available online and it’s well worth playing through. And when you think back to like Eliza, right, AI started and, and interacting with computers started and then this, yeah. We’ve made huge leaps. And man, like I said, [00:38:00] yeah, he’s going to change a lot of stuff, but it’s definitely going to change gaming. And AI dungeon is the first indication of that, where it’s like, this is something’s really happening here. So check that out. Brett: [00:38:08] Did you play a lot of, uh, text adventures when you were a kid? Mike: [00:38:11] Yes, many texts adventures. I wrote a text adventure on a Tia 85 calculator while I was sitting in school. I wrote I’ve written text adventures. Uh, there’s also, you know, like I said, it’s much easier to make games than ever before. There’s very easy text adventure engines to load up a I’m blanking on. On what the big ones call it. There’s a very easy one to write in twine. Twine is a great text, text adventure editor. So if you’ve ever wanted to make your own text, adventure, go check out twine. Um, my second pick here is something that you’ve probably heard of, which is called notion. Have you used notion at all? Brett: [00:38:44] The note taking app. Yes. Mike: [00:38:46] I’ve been a fan of Evernote for a long time. I’ve been a big Evernote user for a long time, but I have never once paid for Evernote. Maybe I should feel guilty about that, but I’ve used Evernote a long time without paying it. I found it earlier. I think later last year I found it for the [00:39:00] first time and I paid it. I started paying within the first two weeks. Like it’s, it’s amazing. Yeah. I don’t think it’s perfect. I don’t think it’s the best thing we’ll see. Like I said, I think we’re heading back towards like, Voices in text or voices in articles. And I think we’re heading towards like a revolution. Like every, you know, the big picture is like web 1.0 is just hyperlinks and being able to link things web 2.0 is flash and colorful graphics and interacting with the web in different ways, web 3.0 or where I think we’re headed next is like returning to texts, but Richard texts and meaningful texts and more linked texts and linked information and notion is a great way to like link information and create linked databases. If you are a hardcore coder or a. Or Excel user, maybe it won’t be complicated enough for you. Like it’s a little too simplified, I think, and a little bit too, you know, uh, hands on. And, and there’s definitely a lot of things I’d love them to do for it, but they just haven’t gotten around to it yet. So I think there’s definitely improvements to be made, but I, I love using notion and I love linking all the different things. I’m working on all the different tasks I have and everything I’m trying to keep track of it in [00:40:00] my head. Like it’s really cool to like have a database. That also uses articles that also uses hyperlinks that also has some coding connected to it. And it’s really, it’s really neat. I really like a notion a lot and notion is fairly popular these days. So I’ll also recommend, this is a two way recommendation. There’s a site called Rome research, which is another site. Have you used that one? Brett: [00:40:22] I have. Yes. Uh, it drives me nuts. Mike: [00:40:25] Okay. Yeah. It’s another thing where I think there’s definitely many improvements to be made, but it’s also like putting thoughts down and then automatically linking them for automatically keeping track of them as you go. Brett: [00:40:35] I’ll, I’ll admit that it mostly drives me nuts because, uh, people cause I’m working on a note taking app and Mike: [00:40:41] Oh, Brett: [00:40:42] the most frequent, uh, feature requests I get are things that Rome does. But they don’t make sense in another app that wasn’t built up with the idea of, of blocks and backlinks and everything. So, [00:41:00] so I have to constantly feel those. Uh, do you know who Ted Nelson is? Mike: [00:41:04] I do not know Brett: [00:41:05] He was he Tim Berners, Lee, Ted Nelson. They kind of had divergent ideas of what the internet should be. And, uh, one of the last episodes I did before the hiatus was with Ted Nelson and he, he had this idea of what the web should, should be, what hyperlinked should be and, and micro attribution’s and micro payments. And the way things could work in a truly like a galley Terrian. Uh, internet age, you, you would enjoy it. You, you would enjoy a look at what web 3.0 could have been or could be. Mike: [00:41:47] Sure. Yeah. I’ll check it out. I think, I mean, I think that’s it. I think we, despite all the terrible things going on, you know, illiteracy used to be a major problem in the world. It is not everyone [00:42:00] now re reads and writes and can understand each other, even if they’re just using emojis, they can at least understand each other. And that is really a result of the internet. That’s a result of us connecting up and the internet being such a required skill that illiteracy has almost completely disappeared, which I think is awesome. Like as much as many terrible things are happening there. There are plenty of terrible things going on in the world. Uh, illiteracy is really coming around and, and that’s what excites me about these new types of like Rome and notion. And I’m excited to see what you’re working on. Um, but like, I think we we’re, we’re moving to an age where we, we have access to all this information and we just need to make sure it’s as organized as it can possibly be. And so the next step is not putting stuff online because we definitely have a lot of stuff online. The next step is making sure that the best way to find stuff is not necessarily Google. Like, it’s something that, you know, in some sort of easy, you know, organization or some sort of some, some, some lining things up in the right way. And again, going back to gaming, gaming is very good at using our evolutionary cues to guide us in the ways that developers want [00:43:00] us to play the game and sort of teaching us the rules of interacting with things. I think. We can build rules to interact with text and information that are clear than what we currently have on the internet. So Brett: [00:43:10] I agree. Mike: [00:43:11] big stuff there, but yeah, and then the last thing is very selfish. Uh, it is something that I love and I don’t know if anyone else will love it, but it is, is the show, the TV show legends of tomorrow. Uh, I love superhero stuff. I love superhero movies. I love heroes and comic books in general. And I think that the CW is doing some really wild stuff. We talked about art and commercial. I am a big fan of like, how can you make really interesting art, commercial, and how can you, you know, make commercial, you know, how can you commercialize art without losing the core of it without losing the vision that people have for it? I think legends of tomorrow is a whack wild TV show. It is very pop culture TV in 2020. Like how can you, you make a show? I kind of hearkened back to Buffy the vampire Slayer, which the show that I loved. And it’s like, how can you make a wild wacky sort of subversive, but also very [00:44:00] popular show on TV and legends of tomorrow is that show it’s part of the arrow verse, which is the arrow show on CW and the flash and Supergirl is part of it. And DC is kind of combining all their TV yeah. Properties into one. But legends of tomorrow specifically is like, The first few seasons are pretty standard superhero stuff, but then by the third or fourth season, it gets way, way off the deep end. And yeah, it just, it goes insane. It’s literally insane what’s happening on the show every week and it’s because, and it’s also like very, you know, there’s a lot of. Uh, you know, different types of community. It very, it makes a commitment to be very diverse. Uh, it makes a commitment to show like other types of sexuality, other types of points of view. Like I think it’s, I think it’s wonderful. If you don’t like superhero stuff, you will be tired of this show. You’re not interested in it. If you, if you’re, if you don’t like dumb TV or you don’t like, you know, serialized. Buffy the vampire Slayer type stuff. You will not be into it, but if you, if you want to see what pop culture TV looks like, it’s very, it’s so subversive. Like from moment to moment, [00:45:00] it is designed to grab the biggest audience possible. Cause it’s still network television, but also introduce these ideas that are really deep and like the, you know, the best comic books. Play with really deep social identities and re really deep social ideas. And this show is also doing that, but in a way that also includes like vampires and pirates and demons and just ton and time travel. There’s so many wild little time travel like star Trekkie ideas in the show. It’s super fun. So that’s, it’s a little selfish, cause like I said, if you don’t like superhero shows, you will watch one episode and be like, this is the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen. But if you enjoy the wackiness of a superhero show legends of tomorrow, it’s a great thing. And I’m in, I’m in season five right now. And, uh, it’s. I just love it. It’s probably my favorite thing. Well, it’s probably not the best thing on TV, but it’s probably my favorite candy, uh, cotton candy type Brett: [00:45:49] no, this looks, it looks interesting. I think I had originally scrolled past it because it looked corny. Mike: [00:45:56] it is corny. Brett: [00:45:57] after, after this description, I definitely [00:46:00] want to check it out. Mike: [00:46:01] Yeah, it’s I will say the first two seasons. So if you really are. If you’re really well, here’s the thing. If you want to see whether you’re into the show or not, you can go on YouTube. I believe there is a, there’s a fight between two giant CGI creatures. I don’t know what the actual we’d have to. Maybe we can, I can send it to you and we can put a show link or something like that. But there was a fight with two CGI creatures that became a V like a viral video for a little while. If you watch that fight and you go, this is a show I want to watch. You’ll love this show. If you watch that fight. And you’re like, I can’t believe this exists on American television. What, what dumb. Stuff is, this is a, then you probably won’t like the show at all, but I will, I’ll send you the video. We can, you can link it out, but just watch that little like CGI fight. And if you think that that’s something you’re into, you will definitely be into legends of tomorrow. And I think it’s great too, because I want to support it. It’s it’s it is a mainstream network TV show. So it doesn’t like, need my support that much, but it, it. It. And especially in 2020 in the Trump administration era, it is doing things [00:47:00] that, uh, that, you know, other network shows, uh, wouldn’t necessarily, you know, wouldn’t necessarily want to do for a mainstream audience. It’s really, it’s really putting yourself out there for better or worse. I really, I really like that show a lot, so, Brett: [00:47:11] so my, uh, my TV watching. I has included this, uh, this dedicated drive that my girlfriend and I have to go back and watch star Trek from the beginning. we’re, we’re into season two of T TNG now, but it is amazing how some of those hold up over time. Mike: [00:47:34] It is great. And it’s great. Both the characters that they built, like it’s such great character work, both in terms of acting and in terms of writing, like all those characters are so specifically drawn and have their own specific role. And it’s also great from like a, uh, a writing perspective. Like every episode really does tackle. A theme tackle an issue. Like you can argue that it is, it’s very episodic in that the show starts and ends. It’s the same way, [00:48:00] but it, yeah. Yeah. And that’s what the show does too. And in fact, listen, tomorrow in the later seasons has a star Trek. They have a bunch of iModules to old shows and old media. Uh, and, and it does have a couple of star trickle Matias. Cause it’s like, of course you can’t make an episodic hour-long scifi TV show on TV these days and not realize that the next generation is basically. What created that form and what set off that form? I Brett: [00:48:23] that’s interesting because like, what I love about a lot of scifi is that it’s able to take social issues of today and abstract them in a way where people don’t have to look at them. With the same emotional attachment that they look at modern issues that they they’re facing or have opinions about. And instead of being a race thing, it’s actually like a species issue. And how are we treating this in, in this off world situation? And, um, I haven’t seen as much of that in superhero stuff, but maybe I’m missing it. [00:49:00] Mike: [00:48:59] I mean, definitely like Marvel movies. They’ve played around a little bit with it, but not hit it hard. Like Marvel movies are designed to make money. So they’re not, they’re not designed to say something they’re designed to make money. Uh, so yes, I think it doesn’t hit as hard as it should. X-Men is a little bit closer, but even then the X-Men movie, these are again trying to make money. They’re not trying to like tell a story of outsiders, things like that. So, yeah, I think they’re good at heart. I mean the comic books. Did do that because in the seventies and eighties, no one cared what, I mean, comics were making enough money, but they weren’t making so much money that anyone cared what was in there. So writers could write all kinds of fun things and all kinds of interesting stuff. And we are kind of seeing, you know, in the adaptations of those stories, we’re seeing some of that stuff come out, but you’re right. I wish that, I mean, doom patrol is a show that does kind of like deal with a lot of the things. The boys on Amazon is another Brett: [00:49:47] Oh, I love the boys. Mike: [00:49:48] yeah, it’s great. It deals with some darker stuff. When some sort of that, some of the things, so there’s some of that in there, but, but yeah, the mainstream superhero stuff, I mean, it’s just designed to be, it’s designed to be something. I mean, this is another fascinating, the [00:50:00] Marvel movies are designed to be successful, not just in the U S audience, but on a worldwide scale. And that’s why they, the story it’s melodramatic there, they’re drawn so broadly that. Whether you speak Chinese, or whether you speak English or whether you speak Taiwanese or whatever language you speak, you can recognize what’s happening. You know, that Loki is bad. You know, the captain America is good. Like it’s very clear from the beginning. So that’s what the Marvel movies are. And I like them for that. Like I do, like, I mean, the Russo brothers are very, are brilliant in the way that they can really explain characters and really express stories very quickly and very directly to anybody you can understand. So that there’s a, there is a certain sort of brilliance there, but you’re right. Yeah. It doesn’t really tackle the issues that we wanted to tackle necessarily. Um, uh, there was something else. I was, Oh, I was going to ask if you’ve seen devs, have you seen devs? Brett: [00:50:46] I haven’t, I, I it’s, it’s on my, my list. Mike: [00:50:51] Yeah. Brett: [00:50:51] I can’t even remember what service that’s on, but Mike: [00:50:54] It’s on FX. It’s the director of ex Mokena and it is a limited series, although I think they’re making a [00:51:00] second season, but it’s a limited series about, uh, Nick Offerman who plays like a Mark Zuckerberg type who, uh, runs a very secret experiment at his. Not actually Facebook, but probably Facebook company basically. And it is very and very abstract, wild, and interesting, and maybe not super successful all the way around, but, but visually really, really impressive and really wild. And also what he’s dealing with in terms of like, you know, text’s responsibility in terms of the world. And also, you know, the, the general computer idea like that. The scifi idea and the technology ideas that they put in there. It’s really fascinating. So yeah, when I think of you and your work and all the things that you think about I dads is probably the one that I think is most, most specific. And you might, you might like a lot. So Brett: [00:51:47] did you know, I have a show with Christina Warren now. Mike: [00:51:50] I did, I saw that I have not heard it yet. Brett: [00:51:53] it w well, we had 80 some episodes. It also went on hiatus at the same time. It systematic. Um, but, but it is [00:52:00] starting back up at the same time as systematic too. And we talked T V a lot, so I’m going to make sure she’s also watching devs so we can bring this up. Mike: [00:52:09] sure. Yeah. It’s great. I mean, Nick Offerman is excellent in it. And the lead actress is also, I forget her name, unfortunately, but she is amazing. She’s she’s, she’s really incredible in that show. She had, she played a bit part in ex Mokena. She was the other, the other robot. Uh, and now I feel so bad that I forgot her name. Cause she’s so good. But, uh, but yeah, it’s a great show. Uh, Alison pill is also in it. She’s excellent in it. Um, and, uh, it’s good. It’s really good. And it’s, it’s also, it’s, it’s well-written I think maybe there’s some issues I have with the writing, but, uh, but yeah, again, like the, the, the, the way it looks at tech companies specifically is really fascinating. And like, what is the responsibility of these people who have billions and billions and billions of dollars? Like, what is their responsibility? And, you know, Is it, is it selfish of them to pursue their own dreams in the name of making the world [00:53:00] better or whatever else tech companies use to justify their own existence. So, Brett: [00:53:03] The Noida Mizuno. Mike: [00:53:05] yeah. So my name is Donna. She’s excellent. A really great in this show and her character takes such an Arkansas, so many turns and she still makes it believable somehow. Like she still does such a good job of like making it work, even though you’re like this there’s, there’s no way all this happens to her, but it works. You believe it. So Brett: [00:53:22] I was, uh, I was at a toy store last night to celebrate my, my birthday party a couple Mike: [00:53:28] Oh, happy birthday. Oh, well, there you go. Brett: [00:53:30] Um, and uh, they had in their curiosity shop, they had a section of candles fashioned after the, uh, the Virgin Mary candles that you see and. Like, uh, my skin grocery stores, I think it’s okay. Catholic thing, but I associate it with Mexican grocery stores. Anyway, they had, they had a candle of Nick Offerman, uh, specifically Ron Swanson. But I, I almost bought that. I did not though. I just [00:54:00] came home with a coffee mug. Cause I know I’ll actually use that. Mike: [00:54:02] I would say there, is there a larger theme in here about like us losing religion and needing icons? Or is it just a dumb, fun parks and rec candle that someone Brett: [00:54:14] that’s an that’s another show. All right. Well, let’s see, people can find you@mikesram.com. Uh, two, two M’s and SRAM, anywhere else you want to mention. Mike: [00:54:26] Uh, yeah, I’m on Twitter. I still post stuff on Twitter, uh, for some reason. I mean, I, again, I’m trying to be as good as I can, but I, I, I don’t know if my voice is really worth it there, but I, I definitely try to signal blast when I think it’s most valuable or what I think it’s most important. A lot of indignation, just like everybody else. A lot of, a lot of just. Shock at, at what’s happening in this country and what’s going on with the world world and all that stuff. And I hope I’m, I hope I’m doing everything I can. I, I really, you know, I, a few years ago I was really shook by what happened and, and the way social media was used. [00:55:00] And I’m, I’m trying to focus locally and. Do everything I can around me to make sure that the world that I can existed, uh, is as good as it can possibly be. So I really, I really hope that I’m doing that. So it’s not so much that I’m online, mine as much anymore, but yes, please do follow me. And you may see blog posts on my website soon. I also wanted to make sure that the first post I put up was not the post that we all used to joke about it as bloggers, which is the post where you go, definitely we’ll be writing more here soon. And then it’s three years old. Brett: [00:55:27] Steve Sandy was the only person that was ever true of. Mike: [00:55:31] Yeah. Yeah. He actually did keep writing soon Brett: [00:55:34] Five more times that day. Mike: [00:55:36] Yeah. Brett: [00:55:37] Yep. All right. Um, and, and it’s Mike SRAM on Twitter, right? Mike: [00:55:42] Yup. Just make sure I’m on Twitter. Brett: [00:55:43] Very consistent. I appreciate that. All right. Well, it was great catching up with you. Thanks for coming back. Thanks for helping inaugurate season two. Mike: [00:55:52] Yeah, I I’m congratulations to Merlin man, but I’m also very, I’m also very flattered and I hope we have at least another couple, 100 episodes [00:56:00] from you. I always enjoy your work and I always enjoy all the things that you do. So thanks very much for Brett: [00:56:04] Thank you. Alright. And, uh, thanks everyone for listening. Mike: [00:56:08] Thanks very much.

Today’s guest, and the first guest in what I’ll call season 2 of Systematic, is Merlin Mann. He’s a prolific podcaster and man about the internet, and a repeat — one might say regular — guest on Systematic. Merlin joins me to inaugurate season two of Systematic. From mediocre home automation tools to the latest in Teppanyaki videos, it’s two ADHD podcasters catching up after a couple of years. NosillaCast Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (Garth Jennings) Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (BBC) Bunch MailMate TaskPaper Drafts Editorial Eufy Phillips Hue Motion Sensors GuardianVPN You Look Nice Today California King Top 3 Picks Descript Hit Parade slate hit parade red red wine Japanese Chefs cooking Teppanyaki How to ADHD Answers With Joe-Joe Scott Technology Connections Bando Manndo the Bearded Dragon @bandomanndo Thanks! You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network BackBeat Media Podcast Network Check out more episodes and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. I’m @ttscoff on Twitter, and you can follow Systematic at @systmcast. Transcript Brett: [00:00:00] so this is my first show in, how long has it been? This one was, November 8th, 2018. Yeah. So, so this is you are my first guest and I picked you because you are the easiest interview in the world. Merlin: [00:00:19] It’s really hard to get me to talk. Brett: [00:00:21] Yeah, right. Like with no planning or forethought, conversations with you just happen and Merlin: [00:00:29] enjoy our visits. So very much as you know, I am a huge fan of your work and I’m honored to be your first guest in, you know, Years. I, you know, as I’m revealing myself as somebody who has not noticed the absence of your show, and it’s just because in the same way that I forget why I muted somebody on Twitter, I also sometimes forget why I kept the podcast, but turned off new episodes. So the lack of episodes to me can be, could be written down to the fact that I just can’t [00:01:00] remember why I turned it off. At on. I just didn’t notice. Brett: [00:01:03] I had quietly just decided to take a hiatus. At first it was going to be a couple months, and then it was going to be six months. Then it was going to be a year. And then I stopped worrying about it and just decided if it comes back and then some turns of events and all of a sudden, I just found myself excited about it. Again, I built a whole new website where we’re network free Merlin: [00:01:27] that’s so awesome. Well, I have this thing that, I mean, I’m not certainly not the first person in middle age to realize this, but something I have learned to accept and leverage is that. Every time. Well, for example, every time I’m leaving the house , I either have the feeling that I have everything that I need or they don’t have everything I need that I’ve done everything I need to do, or I haven’t done it. Yeah. Everything I need to do. And if I have even the slightest feeling that there’s something I’ve forgotten [00:02:00] and I don’t know what it is. If I take a minute, it always turns out to be something that I have indeed. Forgotten. And so while I’m trying to become less of a who quote unquote trust there, gut, I believe in that in your case, I think when your brain tells you, your brain is trying to tell you yeah. Something it’s time for a break. This is not fun.  if you’re not looking forward to a thing that you do, this is very privileged, but I believe it. If you’re not leaning forward to the thing that you’re doing, it’s worth interrogating that. Like what, why is that? And if you don’t know why. You know, why push a rope? A brakes are good. Brett: [00:02:39] Do you know Alison Sheridan? Merlin: [00:02:42] I feel like I Brett: [00:02:42] pod feat, the most know Zillow  podcast.  She’s been doing that podcast for  15 years and has never missed a week.  That kind of blows me away. Merlin: [00:02:55] E so wait, that’s 2005. Brett: [00:02:59] Math. I [00:03:00] don’t know. I don’t want to do math. Merlin: [00:03:01] This is the thing that Jason Snell and I call dropping a decade. When you reach a certain age, one of the, one of my three Brett: [00:03:08] 20 minus 15. That’s Merlin: [00:03:10] Well, the thing that Jason and I do is we’ll go like, Oh yeah, I can’t believe that record came out 20 years ago. And somebody goes, that record came out 30 years ago, or like in one of my recommendations today, somebody mentioned that 1980 was 40 years ago and I go, come on. And that in that case. Oh, that feels really not like 40 years ago. Brett: [00:03:32] yeah. Merlin: [00:03:33] Well, good for a good for Allison shared and that’s wild. Brett: [00:03:36] I just turned 42 last Merlin: [00:03:38] Oh man. Now you just need to learn what the question was. Brett: [00:03:42] Well, yeah, exactly. I had for years now had planned to have a hitchhikers themed party Merlin: [00:03:49] Oh, man. Brett: [00:03:50] and fortunately time is not a linear construct and I can be 42 again. When things are [00:04:00] when parties are more feasible. Merlin: [00:04:03] Exactly right. You just need to figure out the most improbable thing we’re going through. My, my wonderful, 12 year old daughter is on a tear about Sam Rockwell right now. And. she got very into Sam Rockwell because of Jojo rabbit, which is a movie, the whole family adores. But now we are burning through like so many Sam Rockwell movies and we’re returning to Sam Rockwell movies. She didn’t remember him in, so of course, you know, iron man too, but more watch moon, but, she did. She forgot. She forgot. Oh, okay. Oh, you know, it also matchstick men, very good movie. and which has now got us pivoting to cage a little bit, but, but it’s pretty much that movie, the Hitchhiker’s guide movie is very strange, but I think it’s, I think it’s more fun than a lot of people give it credit Brett: [00:04:51] I think it’s like the PBL or not PV, the BBC. Merlin: [00:04:56] yeah, Brett: [00:04:56] it was like spot on. Like, it was [00:05:00] almost too close to the book. Merlin: [00:05:01] yeah. Brett: [00:05:02] like the book wasn’t a screenplay and it was Merlin: [00:05:05] no, it’s just one of those things that could, that you could, I think you could fairly describe as being unfilmable. Brett: [00:05:11] Yeah, Merlin: [00:05:12] I mean, what, how are you going to make a Vogue on look the way I imagine a Vogel looks, Brett: [00:05:18] Yeah. No, I found that, I thought that movie was delightful in its own way, but you should definitely see mr. Right. It is the best assassin movie ever. Merlin: [00:05:28] What are the oddest and most improbable catchphrases phrases in our house for some years now is the moment when, Arthur wakes up and looks in the mirror. And so when we read the book, this just made us all. How I, of course I read it when I was a teenager, but now like my kid loves it. But, where Arthur is hung over and he looks in the mirror and he sees the construction equipment. And it’s just the single word. Yellow. Yeah. It’s such a nun sequitur because yellow is, you know, it takes a while for Arthur to like, have it all [00:06:00] sink in what’s happening. The first thing you realize is it’s yellow. Hi, Brett. How are you? Brett: [00:06:08] swell and swell. what I was to, so the only thing I’ve heard from you about me lately was that you really enjoy bunch. Merlin: [00:06:23] Oh, yeah, I literally, I clicked on it three minutes ago, five minutes ago. So I’m like, well, sorry. Now I could tell from call recorder. I’m lying now. It’s 15 minutes ago, but time is a very relative concept, Brett: [00:06:33] yet you re you haven’t lodged any feature requests. Merlin: [00:06:37] Oh, I, you know, the thing is with your stuff. Every time I returned to the page, you’re so good at the documentation and the change log stuff. You’re not cute about it. It’s really useful. Like when you introduced God, what was it? There’s a lot of advanced features I’m not using, but the, one of the ones I’m most proud of figuring out is. How can I put this without committing a [00:07:00] federal crime? there are certain demons that run on my computer for purposes. Yeah. And media acquisition. And one of them is that I can, I went and I looked up the URL for the API, the request to turn this service or to pause this service and to unpause this service. And so I slapped one of those into my start podcast punch, and one of those into my end podcast punch, and it works a charm. it’s a, it’s such a, it’s such a clever idea. And it’s something I’m really trying to try to socialize with my friends. love it. Yeah, no, I am on your stuff all the time. your, my computer is lousy with Terpstra title. Okay. Yeah. I mean, what, I mean, what are the services? I use the services a lot.  Brett: [00:07:46] Oh, you don’t have to go into like all the things you use. I just know that bunch of, I see traffic come in, to the blog when you do a podcast and you mentioned me and it seems like a [00:08:00] lot of it has been centered around bunch. the app I wrote the app, I wrote much like NBL. I wrote it over a lunch break. Merlin: [00:08:08] Jeez Louise, but I, you know, the thing that’s clever about it for folks who haven’t used it is I just love the fact that it’s a text file. It’s a text file with lines and align here means this. It’s almost like, you know, Python for running your computer or something because like, well, it doesn’t require weird tabs, but it’s so cool. The way you just like, these are the sites I want to launch. These are the things I want to quit. But like, so the reason Dropbox, I hate tech support. The reason Dropbox won’t quit is probably because it’s not accepting a proper AppleScript event. Like why does Dropbox never quit? Is it broke back mountain what’s happening? Brett: [00:08:47] it’s a fair question. Merlin: [00:08:49] Do you know what. I don’t think it’s you. I think it’s Dropbox. Dropbox is like so goddamn evil and I hate how much I love and sort of need it right now. I mean, there’s so much dumb stuff I took out of [00:09:00] my Brett: [00:09:00] so you’re saying when you quit the Dropbox app or you say quit Dropbox and it keeps sinking. Merlin: [00:09:07] No, I have a line in my start podcast bunch. To quit Dropbox and I’ve tried several different ways. So to get the name wrong and in every instance it, is it sending an Apple script event. How w how do you tell an app to quit Brett: [00:09:22] yeah, it’s it sends an Apple event Merlin: [00:09:25] Apple in that? Okay. Brett: [00:09:27] I mean, I could make it send a, Merlin: [00:09:29] no, I know this is actually not a feature request. It’s more just like Dropbox is a bad, a is a bad citizen. Brett: [00:09:35] I haven’t run into any  apps that won’t quit. I’ll have  to check that out though. Merlin: [00:09:40] Yeah.  Brett: [00:09:40] some apps take a couple prods before they Merlin: [00:09:43] wonder if I should look at  monitor for things beside the user-facing gooey Dropbox app. I wonder if there’s some other process that has to be stopped Brett: [00:09:58] Oh, Merlin: [00:09:58] to make it super quick. Brett: [00:09:59] there probably [00:10:00] is. As you put Merlin: [00:10:00] They’re so sneaky. I hate how sneaky drop off is just like it’s. I mean, on the one hand, like I like everybody, I guess I applauded the cleverness of them somehow getting past the gatekeepers to make Dropbox a folder on your Mac. I, that was brilliant. They took this boring, difficult unprofitable problem that we all had. And finally nailed it in a way Apple never could. They were snarky with Dropbox. And I think Steve famously said, that’s a product, not a company or something like that. But, now it’s over the years, they’ve gotten more and more like skeevy. I mean, they’re not quite at like a zoom level yet, but they’re not that far off. They really want to. when you see all the popups for what Dropbox wants to control, it’s wild. Brett: [00:10:44] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, some of it’s fair, but some of it’s a bit out there Merlin: [00:10:49] But it’s like a virus. It just wants to get like a literal, like, you know, health virus, like it wants to get in, it wants to attack and get into anything. It can, but no, I love it. big fan. You are. You hope my life every day. [00:11:00] And, I appreciate that. Brett: [00:11:01] so you wrote me yesterday about, internet cameras you had what’s what seemed like a cranky, like you had just had a bad time with a smart camera. Merlin: [00:11:13] All right, let’s be fair about this. Yes. Let me find my actual email to you because a, you know, a person likes to be prepared for these kinds of things. And I had not yet thought of a topic, although I’m happy to just hang out with you. And so quoting myself, I said, I was thinking about how almost all the smart home cameras I’ve tried suck. And that made me think about how smart. Home items don’t seem to be getting that much smarter. And then that got me thinking about how there are whole classes of products, like email apps and streaming apps that almost all suck. So I mentioned I’m Carrie Bradshaw on the bed with the laptop. And so that makes me ask why are some kinds of product offerings so difficult to get? Right. So somewhere in there, I think there’s a ton we could start Brett: [00:11:57] I can speak to, I can speak to email apps. [00:12:00] I’ve never owned a smart home camera. Tell me what sucks about them. Merlin: [00:12:04] Well, okay. So let me just tell you the kind of superclass idea that I’m working with here. Kind of can I use exactly one curse and you can cut it if you need to. Brett: [00:12:12] no, I have made this show officially, officially explicit when you Merlin: [00:12:16] Well, it’s not. Yeah. So this is very, this is a PG 13, but, there’s a phrase that we started using on the Dubai Friday podcasts. We finally came up with a name for this thing that I do, and that name is pound sign Merlin shitlist. and all that means is if somebody says to me, Hey, you know, what email app are you using right now? and I’ll say I use X email app, but I don’t recommend it. Or like, what do you mainly use to stream TV? And I will say I mainly Hulu. I use it constantly, but I absolutely can. The problem with the cameras. The thing of the thing that superclass big idea here is that it’s so rare [00:13:00] in some cases is for some certain kinds of products. I find it. I don’t find so in a given class of products, I’m sometimes surprised at how few. Options I have for something that does everything that I want in the way that I want without doing the things that I don’t want. Do you know that phenomenon of like, it’s sort of that Marco Arment thing, I’m going to buy 10 of these and said nine back because. This one gets this, you can’t nail this, like one thing that’s so important to me, or you do this creepy g-mail signing thing. That seems kind of unnecessary, but you’re basically hosting my Gmail, which freaks me out or like, you know, so, so with cameras and in some of these things are great. The image can be great in a lot of cases, whether it’s a smart home sensors, smart home cameras, smart home lights, the hue app is actually I think, quite good. Personally, but almost all of the things fall short on something. So like [00:14:00] some get geo-fencing bad, some get geo-fencing wrong. some don’t do face recognition, very well. Some of the ones that do think a soccer ball, it was a face, but, you know, whatever, it’s mainly that like, there’s some new niggling thing about this product Makes me want to keep looking. And I, you know, whatever that is, email again, smart home, but I don’t know. I just thought that’d be, can you talk about it? Because it just seems like it’s the unknown. I know that like, things are difficult. It’s hard to make something good, but like, you know, some kinds of products are such a delight to use the opposite of pound sign Merlin shit list is again, one of my recommendations to today will be this app called descript. And it’s one of those apps where like, I want more opportunities to use this. You know, sometimes there are things out there where I wish I had a reason to use it. Like slug line. I wish I wrote scripts because slug line is such a delight to use. It’s [00:15:00] so clever. It’s almost like when you first you got an iPhone and you just play with rubber banding for half an hour at boing, pull down, pull just to watch a bounce, just the light. And yeah. So let me throw to you. What do you have a feeling on this. Brett: [00:15:11] It does. If some, if you have one niggle with something that it just can’t get. Right. But the other things it does are so good. It’s easy for you to just work your life around that niggle. Merlin: [00:15:24] everything about that is true, except the easy part, which is that. Yeah, that is a situation in which I exist, like to this day for, I can can’t even tell you how long on my Mac. My email app is mail plane. Which basically is a web rapper with extra features for g-mail that retains all the things that make Gmail special, nobody ever gets this. I’m sure people are sick of me saying this, but like once you get into the keyboard, lifestyle in Gmail, you’re not going to believe how many hours you wasted clicking, Brett: [00:15:56] Yeah. What, so, Merlin: [00:15:58] Let, you know, left bracket. I [00:16:00] love that every time, but then there again, and that kind of it’s like back in the day with Photoshop or like, or word were the only time it ever opened was by accident or when I had to send something to a lawyer, I just, you know what I mean? Like, like, you know, people who demand it’s like the entire PR all the professions that love fax machines, like that’s what you gotta use word for. You know, and it’s, I would much rather be writing everything in envy, all previewing it. And Mark too. This is all true. I’m not kissing your ass. This is how I live my life. And that’s the way I would prefer to roll. And, yeah. Yeah. Brett: [00:16:37] So when it comes to email, have you tried MailMate? Merlin: [00:16:43] Is that the DBR people one Brett: [00:16:45] No.  Merlin: [00:16:46] I’ve got Brett: [00:16:46] free run. so I have, MailMate set up with all of the single letter Gmail shortcuts, and I have, plus I can make my own like G one G two G three jumped between my three most used [00:17:00] mailboxes Merlin: [00:17:01] Oh yeah. Look at this. This is very appealing Brett: [00:17:03] smart nested criteria, smart inbox or smart boxes. Merlin: [00:17:08] it felt look express. We’re pretty. it’s really Brett: [00:17:10] Except it’s not pretty, that’s my one niggle with it is it feels very, it feels very interface, builder, default. Merlin: [00:17:20] Yeah. Yeah. Brett: [00:17:21] but Merlin: [00:17:21] Like sort of, sort of like the way early, before they called it iOS early iPhone apps, I’ll had that same super Beverly table view. Look, Brett: [00:17:29] Yeah, exactly. Merlin: [00:17:31] this is, I’ll have a look at this. I do have it. It is installed and configured. So I guess I tried it at some point. But, you know, this also extends to, if it, as long as I’m, you know, shining your Apple, this also extends to why I’m still stuck in some ways in I’m going to use this word once in my workflow for how I deal with text files. So everything tends to fall apart at the point of how do I continue to use task papers [00:18:00] app on the Mac, which sounds ridiculous. Like why would that be difficult? Well, I would love to be all in, on drafts. Like I think drafts is incredible, but if I’m all in on draft does not do sinking in a way that accommodates the test paper can be accommodated. And so I continue to use stuff like editorial on iOS, which I think, you know, Brett: [00:18:22] is that even supported anymore? Merlin: [00:18:24] I mean, I’ve DMD with him a little bit about it and. I mean, I don’t want to talk out of school, but my sense is it’s unlikely to get a lot of updates, but it’s got the grabby handles. I love the grabby handles for moving lines. And you know, you can do that in drafts, but that’s a couple of clicks away. You can do anything in drafts. It’s like Emacs for text, but you know, it’s. Brett: [00:18:49] what’s Emacs for, it’s not per text. Merlin: [00:18:52] Well, you can also, it’s a dessert topping and a floor cleaner it’s okay. Bassett Maddick. [00:19:00] Yeah. Anyway, but yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. There’s nickels I can live with, but, so for example, like I’ve gone through. Wise cameras. This is, we’re talking here about my office, what I do at my office. why is cameras? I’m currently trying to, you fee I’ve used Canary for a long time. and they all have benefits. The reason I got the  are they all have benefits and they all suck, but I got the UV because it was. I was meant to understand that it’s HomeKit compliant and super friendly, a lot of stuff that says it’s home kit compliant is not super great in home kit, but I am looking Brett: [00:19:36] kits, just not great. Merlin: [00:19:38] well, I don’t love home kit. It’s pound sign Merlin shit list, but it is cool how much you can automate via home and shortcuts, the stuff like, you know, the personal automations where you see, like, whenever I. Am, whenever I’m on this particular wifi access point, do these things that’s way better [00:20:00] than geo-fencing to me. Oh yeah. So, so to come back, one quick thing, the UV, some of their cameras seem to support geo-fencing, but the camera I’ve got does not support geo-fencing. So I wanted to use you fee in the non-home kid state until HomeKit gets the big upgrades for face for facial recognition in zones and stuff. So, you know, but it’s critical that camera be off when I’m here. There’s no way to do that. You have to do it manually. And so then what do I do now? I have to go with home kit because home kit has that accommodation to say, allow this kind of filming to happen. given these conditions, just stuff like that just drives me nuts. And then all the things, especially like, Oh God sensors that work with home kit. I mean, there’s so few and they’re so lame and they’re so unreliable for the kind of stuff I would like. Brett: [00:20:50] kind of sensors? Like motion. Merlin: [00:20:52] Yeah, like this is so we have, we use Phillips hue, motion sensors at home that worked great for detecting people. [00:21:00] This is weird. Now I’m going to say something very weird, cause I’m a weird guy. One thing I do, yeah. Is I have developed a way using sensors to know when our mail has been delivered and I’ve tried it a whole bunch of different ways. And the current way I have it is there’s two different sensors in the little bag that catches our mail. And I, there’s no tweaking. I can do to make it a hundred percent always work. It’s not what it’s for, but I don’t have a huge number of options to even attempt different kinds of things, because there’s not that many that work with home kit. And they’re the ones that even don’t work with home kit, like they’re the apps for these things are just garbage. They’re just so bad. Brett: [00:21:44] do you want to hear about the male sensor before we get to the top three picks the male sensor I’d built probably. Merlin: [00:21:48] time we can keep going. I got time. Brett: [00:21:50] It was, would’ve have been like 2000. Wow. Like 2002 maybe. And, most of my house ran on X [00:22:00] 10. Merlin: [00:22:00] Oh, wow. You are old school. Brett: [00:22:02] Right. I’ve been doing this a long time Merlin: [00:22:05] This isn’t your first Brett: [00:22:06] and radio shack. that’s how old I am. radio shacks Merlin: [00:22:10] real one. Brett: [00:22:11] They sold a, A mailbox, a notification system that was a light detector that went in the mailbox and then it used RF signals to light up a light inside your house when the mailbox had been opened. So I took apart the receiver from that wired it, and then I took apart an X, 10,  key pad and wired the receiver into the key pads. So when it received the signal, it would turn on an X 10 signal that I could then have go to my computer and announced that the mail had arrived. Merlin: [00:22:47] that’s so clever. Brett: [00:22:50] It worked anyway. Merlin: [00:22:51] do feel like,  I feel like sensors. Are well, I think for people who’ve been using this stuff for a while, you will [00:23:00] eventually realize that sensors are way more important than you might’ve thought. because the more of the stuff you get in your house, the more you risk or the more you risk having go wrong or be creepy, like there’s so much stuff where like, you know, you really want to get all this, right. And geo-fencing is, it’s such a clever idea. If you travel large distances, Like chief fencing is really cool. If I’ve done stuff in OmniFocus really wild, but I’ve done stuff in OmniFocus where I’ve created a custom, like a con a context for a given like store in another town. And like, or like I Kia. So like when I’m near an Ikea, you know, remind me of this, or when I’m near this particular comic shop in Walnut Creek, California, remind me to go in and get that figure that I’ve been wanting or whatever. that works. It’s really great. w why does it work? Well, you can make this. Giant circle. That is an incredibly blunt [00:24:00] instrument, but that’s still very powerful where this falls apart for me is, as I said before, my office and my house are in probably close to each other. So I know I’m an edge case here, but like w if you don’t have sensors in your house and it really, I mean, how many times have used, how many times does this happen to you? You get a notification about something regarding geo-fencing and in case of Canary, I’ll get this to rapid notifications in a row. Your kid has left home. Your kid has arrived at home. Well, my kid was at home the whole time. It’s just, it’s something got silly with geo fencing to cause that incorrect a event to happen. And you think, Oh, maybe that’s not a big deal, but like, you know, door locks, cameras. I mean, there’s all kinds of stuff or, you know, cameras that have a siren attached to them. Like it’s really important to get that stuff right. And, you know, that’s why I say like, you know, you can do these location, [00:25:00] what it used to be called location manager back in the day, but you could do cool stuff in shortcuts. Like I say, I think a lot of people don’t delve into that deep into that personal automation stuff. It’s wild, you know, w when I hit this NFC today, ag to this, you know, There’s just so much granularity. That’s all great. But I do want to be able to say, okay. All of, almost all of the things I want to have when I’m not at home. I really need them home control system to honor the fact that someone is at home. So, you know, I tried to do this, what seemed to me the simplest thing, which they put a Phillips here in the bathroom and was trying to use homecare to say, after this hour a certain time, when the lights are off, anytime the, it detects you, I want you to put on a, turn the lights in here at a very damn of, I think they call it Caseta. Those, you know, dimmers. Yeah. I want you to do a low. Light that will, you [00:26:00] know, wake us up too much, but will still allow us to use the bathroom. And then I want you to turn that off after a period of time. And I’m not a programmer, but I found such a, I had such a difficult time avoiding weird errors with that such as well. What if you go in there and you turn the light on and then it detects you and then it dims the light, right? that’s not desirable or. Brett: [00:26:24] these are the things I don’t like about home kit. Like it doesn’t have the granular control I’m Merlin: [00:26:29] not that smart. Brett: [00:26:30] used to really powerful home automation systems where I can have variables and controls and double checks on things. And if, if, it like you can set it within Sianna devices, you can set it to raves the light level. Meaning if it’s at zero, go to 20. But if it’s already at 80, there’s nowhere to go. So it doesn’t do anything. so my lights don’t dim when I want them on like in my office. If I [00:27:00] turn on a light and it’s before six in the morning, the light only comes up to 30% and my screens dim, just for the sake of my eyes, but trying to get that set up with my Hugh was it drove me nuts. So Merlin: [00:27:15] he’s got all that stuff in hue labs. It’s like, you know, you make your, Make your lights look like a Scandinavian village, or, you know, you can have candlelight at this when this song plays or whatever, or there you can change the lighting when you’re watching TV and identify with great granularity, the location of all your lights and how that should effect. That’s all. That’s all really great, but across almost all of this stuff says, okay. It’s basically, if this, then that when the following thing happens, this, which is, you know, this is why you ended up looking at them shortcuts that people make that are so bananas. So many conditionals nested in all of these things, which is so powerful. And that’s obviously what I feel like is lacking a little bit right now in home. I’m like, I’m on the beta of everything right now. And I, the home [00:28:00] kit is going to be real good. I mean, I love the way that it is now recommending. Oh, you just added this new camera. how would you like, for example? Yeah. In this part of the office where you’ve identified the camera is when it detects motion, which you’d like it to turn on the lights. That, to me, that’s a great way to get people started if they don’t want to spend their day working with NFC tags. But I think it’s still got a long way to go. Brett: [00:28:22] I hope that shortcuts and automator on the Mac merge,  Merlin: [00:28:28] I think a lot of Brett: [00:28:29] I want shortcuts on the Mac. I want if loops and if else, statements in automator, like I don’t want to lose automator. I worry that shortcuts would dumb down certain parts of OD matter for me, but I would kill to have logic in automator. Merlin: [00:28:46] The shortcuts, let you do stuff like run a shell script. Brett: [00:28:48] no, not that I know Merlin: [00:28:50] Cause it’s iOS only Brett: [00:28:51] my solution for that has been to set up API so that I can ping with URLs, to handle some of that stuff. But. [00:29:00] Merlin: [00:28:59] Yeah, I, yeah, I agree with you something that demand Jamon and I ended up talking about a lot is, you know, me, and to a much greater extent, Dan, we are people who still love using the Mac. and you know, we have been expressing this concern of well, you know, it feels like I understand wanting to take, especially features of iOS and bring it to the Mac. that’s cool. I guess I kind of even understand the catalyst thing a little bit. I have not yet met a catalyst app that I like, but I understand what they’re doing, but we always kind of walk away from that saying, instead of trying to make iOS like the Mac, make iOS a better iOS, make the Mac a better Mac. You know, instead of trying to create this weird, Kymera or Frankenstein that mashes these things together, how about we continue to leverage what each of these platforms is better or best at? Yeah. Yeah. I know. I don’t know. [00:30:00] I dunno. I, you know, it’s, it is very exciting, but like, I certainly, you know, there’s a reason I’m bummed that I’m not on Instagram anymore. Cause my friends, obviously to me, it seems like they derive so much joy from it, but I just couldn’t conscience. I had to do it for a Dubai by Friday challenge. I had to like resuscitate. no. In the end I ended up keeping my Facebook account. Dead. It’s been dead for years. I kept being just like, keep my name, but I got an Instagram account, but like, I’ve gotten, I don’t use Chrome anymore. I don’t use, I don’t use Instagram anymore. And increasingly I’m getting real picky about specialty stuff like cameras and voice devices. And I’m really starting to, you know, at long, last as an enthusiast of this stuff, trying to be a little more sort of steely-eyed about. How much benefit do I get out of this versus how much could I be risking in ways I do or don’t know Brett: [00:30:55] So what is your browser of choice now? Okay. [00:31:00] Merlin: [00:30:59] Yeah. yeah, I’m all in on. Well, except for calendars and mail are Google, but, everything else I do, I love the sinking of stuff, even as imperfect as it is. Like there’s times where it just has missed like a day of Safari history or right now, understandably in the beta. it’s when I re my reminders are not sinking very well and stuff like that, but, you know, they’ve solved, sinking where their platform is really in a lot of ways. I love handoff. I love this. The fact that I can now confidently know that something I just typed in drafts on my computer, you know, I hit command C. With my phone on, and now I can just drop that right in. I love stuff like Brett: [00:31:38] Yeah, for sure. I’ve gone all in on player Fox. Merlin: [00:31:43] Oh, I love fire. Firefox is my other browser. Like whenever I have to like ensure you, like, you’d have those things where like, okay, I, this is how I see this. How does the world see this? Can they see this? Make sure that the settings and for privacy or right on something, you know what I mean? Like, so, so [00:32:00] like, so I’ll be on Safari doing something. Where I do or don’t want the public to be able to see it. So for example, every time share a file in Dropbox. I have to remember to turn off comments. I wish there were a way to shut that off. I don’t want, yeah. I don’t want comments on any of my things and I don’t want anybody to know when I looked at their document and there’s ways to turn some of that stuff off. I now, like, for example, so what I’ll do is I’ll say, Oh, here’s the, this thing. Oh yeah. Here’s my running file of like all the quotes I try to get. Right. Cause they’re really good quotes. So go over to Firefox, drop that URL in, and then I get to see it how a stranger would see it. But Firefox is awesome. Brett: [00:32:40] automatically fences, things like Facebook for you. So it doesn’t, you don’t carry any cookies out of Facebook and they don’t track you anywhere else, stuff like that. Like their privacy Merlin: [00:32:49] I’ve got it on strict. I’ve got it on strict. And I mean, I’m not using it as my daily browser, obviously, but it makes it all the clearer to me. Like what a weirdo I am [00:33:00] about this, because I want to say at least once a month or so I guest on somebody’s podcast and you know, they’re like, Oh yeah. Here’s the URL. I’m like, well, we’re not doing Skype. And they’re like, no. We’re using a. dingleberry.io and it’s this amazing thing. And then I opened up a Safari and guess what? Of course it literally cannot work in Safari red flag. So then I have to go to Chrome and put it in and Chrome’s like, yeah, we’ll accommodate anything. Click here. Anything that’s red click here. We’ll turn on everything. It’s like, I don’t love that. And then I have to go through some conversation with some, someone explained to me how to record a podcast. And I’m like, yeah, well, if it requires Chrome, I don’t know if I’m in. Are you free? Are you freaked out by Chrome? Brett: [00:33:42] I, yeah, I am. And Merlin: [00:33:44] I can’t talk to your QC out of it. He’s still, he still loves it as a developer, especially, but it creeps me out. Brett: [00:33:50] as a developer, I love Firefox. Merlin: [00:33:54] There were the, Oh, gee. I mean, I feel like Mozilla Firefox with the original, like, Brett: [00:33:58] but they Merlin: [00:33:58] if you view this, inspect, [00:34:00] this element kind of thing. Yeah. Brett: [00:34:01] There was this Renaissance though, like I had let Firefox go because it seems so old school. And then when I came back to it, it turned out their memory management is amazing. Their plugin selection is amazing. Their developer tools are on par with Chrome and in some areas better, it,  Merlin: [00:34:22] And I really do believe that unless I’m really missing something here, I really do legitimately believe that they are trying very hard to protect your neck. You know, it’s in a way that like, you know, okay, if this harms the way you need to view the web from your work, like you can turn this off and just have your, you know, put your Dick in the mashed potatoes. But like, I love that about it. And I think it’s sometimes quite shocking how much people go again. I fall back on that funny bit. We it’s funny bit for us on do by Friday. I need this for my work. I have to be on Facebook for my work. I have to use Chrome for my work and I don’t doubt [00:35:00] for a second that’s. Possible, but can you ever imagine a scenario where even if it’s for your work, what will it take for you to see stop using Facebook setting aside that you’re contributing to the downfall of democracy like that the company is really screwed up and. We only know what they’ve been caught at, but everything they’ve been caught at is not very good. So this is my open question is like, what will it take for you to stop using Facebook? If somebody asked you to go eat a baby for your work, would you do it? Like, I hope you’d like, give it a second. You know, Brett: [00:35:36] take a beat. Merlin: [00:35:38] I, a blast last thing on this, as far as I’m concerned, I have a request cause I’m imagining a lot of developer types. Listen to your podcast. I don’t know if this is even possible, but I have a, I have a. Request for, product, I want to plug in for Safari that makes it easier for me, a California resident and me, a us resident [00:36:00] to not have to jump through all the hoops to say, don’t sell my data. I w I don’t know if that’s, if it’s even possible to do that. I know there are things like FF has that thing where you, I think it’s eff where you can like, see the sort of human readable privacy to see policy or stuff like that. That’s been around for a while, but you ever encountered Ilana site and because of, the European union rules, or because of the California laws, you land on that thing. And it’s all often named it’s in this weird way. Like, Do you want us to sell your data? And I’m not sure if clicking it makes it, so yes or now, is that even possible? Probably not Brett: [00:36:37] yeah, I think there’d be so many edge cases. It would be hard to make one plugin to do that. But I do think that sweeping, legal reform can make a difference. it might be more of a political thing than a developer thing. Merlin: [00:36:51] Do you, are you familiar with guardian? Brett: [00:36:52] Yeah, like the publication. Merlin: [00:36:55] Sorry. there’s a, there’s an app that this is gonna sound crazy. It’s one of the people who I started [00:37:00] this company, was one, I think one of the, Oh, gee jail breakers. Yes. this fellow who really knows those. Where have you speak? Where have you speaks with them? iOS stuff, but guardian, which I is not on Merlin’s shitless. I can recommend guardian until I learned that they’re terrible. they are, first of all, AVPN she run on your iOS device. And in my case, it’s pinging off a server in San Jose down South of here, but it makes websites think that I am in Parsippany, New Jersey, which is fine. Here’s the other thing it does. I don’t know how it does this. It does this with secret sauce. It regularly scans the app store in a way that it dictates techs, which apps have stuff in it that you might not want, like location tracking. Like it basically not malware. Exactly. But you know, Darth malware, that’s stupid. And, but it’s so wild to pop this. Let me pop [00:38:00] this thing open real quick and it keeps a tally. It doesn’t currently the one thing I guess I wish it did that. It doesn’t is it doesn’t tell you what is the app that generated this problem? But I’ll send you a screenshot. so like, you know, it says, okay, data tracker blocked, something called app measurement is known to collect analytics and device information. this is the thing is trying to track your location. And now the hack here is if you force quit an app and then open it and then pop, right, right over to guardian, you can see the, probably these alerts are because of the app that you just launched. But this thing I’ve had since, I don’t know how many months, it’s blocked 25,595 attempts to Nick. My shit  thousand 51 location trackers 24,500 data trackers and a male tracker. That’s a new one to me. And I guess, Oh yeah. And then page Hijacker, 30 times it stopped a page from doing some skeevy shit [00:39:00] in Safari. But, you know, that like installing iOS 14, it’s really interesting to notice what works and does not work. If you’re not permissive about your data. Do you know what I mean? Brett: [00:39:14] for sure. Yeah. Merlin: [00:39:16] Because there’s a lot of stuff that it’s something business, plus we get your data. So you look at something like citizen, which is only available in a few cities, I think, but citizen is an app that it’s like Nick, next door for nerds. It basically, like, I think it’s basically, you know, watching the police scanner and then you can go and see videotape of stuff, but like, it really wants all kinds of permissions that I don’t want to give it. And it does a weird thing where like we do a screenshot and says, Hey, it looks like you just took a screenshot. Do you want to share that with the up arrow? It’s like, dude, get out of my pants. Brett: [00:39:53] Yeah, that and that’s on the iOS 14 beta is all those notifications of apps checking your clipboard. [00:40:00] Merlin: [00:39:59] And that’s how they found the Instagram thing. Or do you use it Instagram? Brett: [00:40:03] I use Instagram. Merlin: [00:40:04] How did you feel? so tell your listeners what happened and how you feel about it? Brett: [00:40:08] What are, I’m not sure what you’re referring to. I know Merlin: [00:40:11] The Instagram camera thing. Brett: [00:40:14] Oh, I don’t know about this actually Merlin: [00:40:16] Oh boy. Oh yeah. Brett: [00:40:18] my day. Merlin: [00:40:19] Yeah. I’m good at that. Instagram, Kara. okay. This is from the verge. A headline and Instagram bugs showed a camera on indicator for iOS 14 devices. Even when users weren’t taking photos. So, you know, remember the thing back to our old friends, in Palo Alto, do you remember when it was discovered that Facebook was, what was it doing? It was doing stuff like that. At one point, I think it was keeping, having some kind of inaudible. Yeah. They had some, they were broadcasting some kind of an inaudible signal in order to keep. You know, the microphone on or something. It was. Yeah. But you know, trying to basically, [00:41:00] you know, he’s the stuff like that is like, and then like, Oh, sorry, my bad. That’s a bug. Brett: [00:41:05] Yeah. Yeah. Merlin: [00:41:06] you who made this app? This app not, you know, delivered by a stork, somebody could made all of this stuff. And then somebody tested all of this stuff. And your answer to that is sorry. My bad Brett: [00:41:19] yeah, that’s the thing is you don’t accidentally check someone’s clipboard a hundred times. Merlin: [00:41:25] Oh, that’s I, you know, my kid is, so she basically looks at tick tock all day, even while we’re watching TV even, or eating dinner, I’m reluctant to take it away because it’s a hard time to be 12. Brett: [00:41:41] yeah. Merlin: [00:41:42] And, there’s not that many things. There’s been a few really good articles about this, about the. You know, one way kids are avoiding utter depression is through things like FaceTime through things like, you know, zoom calls with their friends, my kid FaceTimes with their friends almost every day, which is awesome. But also through tick tock for slightly [00:42:00] older folks, maybe like it makes you feel connected and entertained. And I wish somebody out there would make it less gross, but I don’t know. I’m probably being a real sucker here, but I’m reluctant to take that away from Brett: [00:42:14] Yeah, no, I get it. I mean, I don’t, cause I don’t have kids, but I feel like I can understand Merlin: [00:42:20] but you’re an empathetic man. You do yoga. Brett: [00:42:22] I do yoga. Merlin: [00:42:23] If yoga gloves I’ve seen him, it was a great look. You don’t think a drummer, you think he played bass originally, right? Brett: [00:42:31] Yeah. Merlin: [00:42:32] Yeah. Yeah. Brett: [00:42:32] But I wear weightlifting gloves to do yoga. all right. If we’re going to keep this around an hour, we should get to top three picks. I don’t do ads of this new reboot of the show. I’m not going to try to come up with my own top three picks for every single episode. So we’re going to go through your top three picks and they can be as conversational as you Merlin: [00:42:53] you. Yeah. They inspire you. yeah. Three things. Number one. I cannot say enough. Good stuff about this app called [00:43:00] descript, T E S C R I P T. Have you played with this Brett: [00:43:03] I have not Merlin: [00:43:04] Oh boy. Okay. Brett: [00:43:05] me. Merlin: [00:43:06] All right. So I learned about this through front of the show, Adam lonely sandwich, who had made a video for these folks. And I was just talking about how, you know, one of the things that’s held me back. It’s my problem. But one of the things that holds me back from it being, you know, very aggressive about Mac updates is the one show that I have to edit every week. A, on the line I’ve been doing in the very old version of garage band, because the newer version of garage band is not really podcast friendly logic, twist my melon with all the features. I mean, I could learn it, but I mean, I could learn to fly a jet, but so anyway, he just mentioned in passing, go check out this video for descript and here’s what, how can I’m going to try and keep this short, but descript is magic. You get the script, you get an account and you, in my case, you drag media files, let’s [00:44:00] say into the app. In my case, I drag in the two tracks, I’ve split out of Ecamm call recorder so that I can edit Roderick on the line. I drag them in. It says, okay, cool. Here’s these files. Do you want to transcribe this? And I said, yes. Do you want me to, Detect multiple speakers. Yes. A few minutes later I have a transcript. Pretty good. They see 95%. I pick it more 80%, pretty good, like automated transcript of us. And, it now knows when each person is speaking. So it looks kind of like a script in some ways. And that’s cool, but so I’ve got the transcript in this pain up here, and then down here, I got a timeline. With wave forms and different colored wave forms and titles, because guess what, that transcript has now also associated each word with its spot on the audio Brett: [00:44:55] Oh, that’s amazing. Merlin: [00:44:56] editable separately or together. [00:45:00] it’s got a, and, but here’s the beauty part. It’s like, if you’re just doing some basic editing and you want to take out something, a sentence that somebody said, you select it in the script and backspace. And that’s exactly that part out. How about this? Let’s say you’ve got a lot of uhms and AHS and a, you knows, you know, what they called filler words. Well, no problem. Just go to the remove filler words, functionality. It’ll take all of those out. let’s say you want to just take it up a little bit? Well, you know, one manual way to tighten it up is to remember every single word is now a tab above. The wave form. So grab the tab for that word, drag it left, and it non-destructively makes that it’s a tighter edit, or you could just say remove long pauses new one for me, I always say, Oh yeah. you know, on the show, I’ll be like any given show. I’ll be like, Oh yeah, I’ll post a link to that. Or I’ll find that article, do a search for link or article or YouTube and find all the places where you need to do [00:46:00] links. You can export it. As all the usual things, but you can also export it as this really cool, like, like pseudo video that like each word pops on screen. As if you want to do like a teaser, you can create that. Oh, by the way, I should mention this. It also does video. So you drag a video in, and now you’re editing video by just removing text. Brett: [00:46:24] this is insane. You may have just changed my entire Merlin: [00:46:26] not. Inexpensive to subscribe to. Can I give you one more? They have a feature called that they just officially put into the production release. And so you record, they give you something to record like a Google doc thing, read this, and so re read this thing. Okay. Now read this thing as if you’re calm. Now, read this part as if you’re angry, read this part as if you’re a neutral read this part, et cetera. Now I go in, I type a paragraph, and then say overdub, that midterm, what I just [00:47:00] said into my voice with the following intonation. Can, did you get the offer code wrong? No problem. Just select that type in the right one. And it generates your voice. Brett: [00:47:10] amazing. Merlin: [00:47:12] It’s I encourage you to at least grab it and play with it because the front tech standpoint, because it’s still, as you can see here, like I only have one podcast. I need to edit it with that, but I can’t tell you how much fun stuff I’ve done. I, well, like, like for example, I’ve, there’s podcasts that I love. And in the case of like my brother and me, or a blank check, I dragged a bunch of episodes in and then you can make a super cut. Like you could say fine every instance of this phrase and highlight it now, all those highlights, copy them and create new composition. So you just made a super cut just by looking for words of this is video. This is audio. This is anything it’s wild. Brett: [00:47:45] that’s insane. All right. It shows it if you pay for an annual plan, the pro subscription is $24 a month. That Merlin: [00:47:53] I’m I’m at two 88, two 88 a year, but it’s worth every nickel to me. I think that’s going to be a tough sell for some [00:48:00] folks, but it’s really worth it for me. So the other, in my case, every show I do, I only have to edit Roderick, but every, but I am the show notes master for all of the programs. So what I do, I drag in. The raw edit or the finished edit or whatever. And it makes it exceptionally easy to go through and find all these things. Like, for example, how often is that? You know, we do a podcast with somebody. Oh, dammit. What was the thing? Where did we talk about X? No problem. What are all the times we used, you know, the we’re descript. No problem. Just going to do a search. It’ll find all of them for you. And then you can add markers. You can do whatever you need to do. It’s got compression. It’s got equalization per track. It’s got leveling. It’s just watch that video. It’s a, it’s pretty my Brett: [00:48:46] I’m sold like two 88. Sounds like a deal to me. Merlin: [00:48:49] Yeah. Yeah. Brett: [00:48:51] All right. Number two. Merlin: [00:48:53] and the next two are media things, in no particular order. I needed a third one of these this morning and it landed right in my [00:49:00] lap with the new, have a slate podcast called hip parade hit parade is hosted by Chris , who is a writer for slate. He does the why is this song or one column? And he is a very. I mean this in the best possible way. He is a music nerd and a music history nerd, but in particular, he’s a beast board charts, nerd. He has a nearly encyclopedic knowledge of what band was doing, what at a given time. and so hip parade is a twice a month podcast where he takes this particular week. In a given year and uses it as a jumping off point to talk about something musical. So this week in 1980, yeah. Which is 40 years ago is the week that Christopher cross’ sailing, I think went to number one. And so that leads to an hour and a half discussion of the genre called yacht rock. And he it’s just, it’s [00:50:00] so entertaining. He does such a good job. It’s so well edited somewhere in here. There is an episode you will love. The one that got me hooked very early on was I think the second episode was the weird history of what we think of as you be 40, but technically Neil diamond song, red wine. and it varies a lot. It could be like, this is going to be the one about, you know, I’m trying to think of some of the other classic ones fit. Yeah. Hip parade, with crystal  available on slate. Brett: [00:50:24] perfect. Merlin: [00:50:26] Nice companion to other shows like song Exploder, strong songs. And if you love getting your hands dirty, you know, doing the mechanical work of how a song is, the way it is or how this genre is the way it is and Brett: [00:50:39] Yeah, I can definitely get into that. Merlin: [00:50:41] Last one. Brett: [00:50:42] Yep. Merlin: [00:50:43] Well, like, you know, 2.5 or 3.0, I guess I’ve really gotten into these YouTube videos. Oh, Japanese chefs, cooking teppanyaki. So teppanyaki best-known into Americans is what they’re doing at Benihana, which they do in kind of a fun Disney Disneyland way. But it’s [00:51:00] a, I think a fairly common, way of cooking. Especially in places like Tokyo. you go in, you sit at this counter, there’s a heated, you know, hot surface in front of you and the chef prepares your meal. And, I love watching videos of people being great at cooking. so that’s a side recommendation, a specific YouTube video. I want to point people to, cause I think it’s kind of magic. it’s a video of the head chef at the only Michelin three star restaurant in Las Vegas. Which I think is called, is a Joel Robuchon. Brett: [00:51:34] I wouldn’t know. Merlin: [00:51:36] Well, but here’s the thing. Okay. So my wife wasn’t into this either. but I’ve taken a little bit of heat, I think from people who say like, Oh, how could you not like the movie free solo? And well, first of all, the guy, he clearly needs some kind of a diagnosis. You ever see free solo. It’s about the, a guy who free climbs, the face of. [00:52:00] I think a, of Yosemite and notoriously even like for people with the right equipment and experience notoriously difficult. So he free climbs the face of this giant mountain. and he’s an asshole. I think he’s really mean to his super sweet girlfriend, but everybody says, Oh yeah. But look, despite his personality, don’t you like enjoy. Like watching him do this amazing thing. And like, I go, no, I’m totally distracted by what an asshole he is. I found my version of that with this video. The guy’s not an asshole, but he is this guy, this head chef at this restaurant is so. He cares so much about everything that he is doing to like a rain man level, the Lake, the, these beans are the wrong length. Like the geometric pattern of dots on this plate is not right. It’s it is what some people call too. I’ve heard called competence porn. I just like watching this particular guy care this much about what he does and how his whole life [00:53:00] revolves around doing it. Well, It’s, this is a very COVID sort of thing to me. Cause it’s not only like very interesting looking food, but like, you know, watching somebody try to be better every day at what they do is, is thrilling to watch. Brett: [00:53:14] all right, so you’re going to send me a link to this. Merlin: [00:53:17] Yeah, absolutely. Brett: [00:53:18] right. That, yeah, I definitely, I get into Merlin: [00:53:22] Yeah. What do you, what are you into for stuff like comfort videos or YouTube times? Brett: [00:53:26] Well, I’ve been watching, like educational, YouTube channels a lot. Like I never, it was very recent that I got so into YouTube that I started joining Patriots, Merlin: [00:53:36] Yeah. Yeah, I have I’m on a couple because of YouTube. Yeah. Brett: [00:53:39] there’s this girl who does a channel called how to ADHD Merlin: [00:53:45] She, the one with the mask video, how to put on or how to wear a mask with glasses. Is Brett: [00:53:48] no, I don’t Merlin: [00:53:50] or is it the really cute girl with the kind of long Brett: [00:53:52] Yeah. Yeah. Cute girl. Long hair, slightly squeaky boys. Merlin: [00:53:56] Yeah, she’s charming. I love her Brett: [00:53:58] Yeah. And they’re super well [00:54:00] researched and she’s a very empathetic person. I really enjoy those. And, and then answers with Jo. that channel has been like he’s well-researched, but also willing to admit when he’s wrong. So he’s opinionated, but if someone presents a valid argument to him, he’ll do a whole show about, you know, what, here’s how it actually Merlin: [00:54:23] making tech videos, if you attract an audience, boy, you’re going to get a lot of notes from people you’re going to get a lot of, well, actually it’s one that I love and support on patriotic is called. I think it’s called technology connection Brett: [00:54:34] Okay. Merlin: [00:54:35] and it’s this, which I really recommend to you. he, I think Mark was a patron too. He, he’s this really interesting guy who delves into how mostly, ubiquitous consumer technology works and the miracle of it, the miracle of how VHS tape is works is saying the guy he usually wears like a tee shirt in a [00:55:00] blazer. Brett: [00:55:00] Yeah. Merlin: [00:55:01] Yeah. He’s got the stuff behind him. Yeah. Yeah. I think it’s called technology connection. Let me look. But like he did his stuff about like, sometimes he’s got to just gotta be in his bonnet where like, he’s just like these air conditioners and heaters don’t work. And here’s why toasters suck now, like this kind of stuff. and some of the, like one, one that ethic think is, again, pretty miraculous is how they hacked it together to be able to have. what do they call it? Like when you get a Spanish language version of subtitles and how they, when you see that, when you see that weird, tiny, like one pixel is banned, like pulsing and doing weird things in the top of a video, that’s part of an ind band message that’s used. I didn’t know that. And like learning all of that stuff is just delightful to me. Brett: [00:55:48] that crash was my cat knocking over my iPad stand.  Merlin: [00:55:53] it is. Are they both? Okay. Brett: [00:55:54] the, I don’t know about the iPad, but the cats. Okay. he’s got a feeding tube in right now, so I basically, [00:56:00] I feel so, so much pity toward him that I let him get away with anything. Yeah. He had pancreatitis and he stopped eating. And for the last month I’ve been. Feeding him as to his food, through a Merlin: [00:56:13] Oh, Brett: [00:56:14] for the last week, for the last week straight, he has eaten on his own. So he’s going to get the tube out next week and we’re all very excited to Merlin: [00:56:22] I hope he’s going to be okay. Brett: [00:56:24] He’s got a couple of years left in him. I think he’s Merlin: [00:56:27] Well, Mark that’s like our cat is our cat has hardly any teeth left. She’s like 14, she’s a goddamn mess. She looks like a rejected model for star Wars knockoff. she’s horrific. And her anus is pure black. It’s like that black, that it’s so black. You can’t see it, you know, like that, like she it’s like a black hole. Literally. I’m going to say this, you know, you’re a special friend of mine and I only give this advice to literally everyone I know, but [00:57:00] Patricia, you need to get a bearded dragon. Brett: [00:57:02] Aye. Merlin: [00:57:03] dragon is a very strong pet. Brett: [00:57:04] I have had one in the past. Merlin: [00:57:06] How’d it go? Brett: [00:57:07] I loved it. Merlin: [00:57:09] I feel like on the matrix of hassle to fund, it’s like the opposite of a goldfish it’s, they’re so delightful. And I know they’re just dumb lizards and don’t understand things like transparency, but, there’s a phenomenon you probably know in the lizard owning community called glass surfing Brett: [00:57:26] I’m Merlin: [00:57:27] where sometimes. Brett: [00:57:27] with this. I’ve owned a NOLs, which so I feel like I Merlin: [00:57:30] the room and the tank in such a way that the lizard will be confused and angry about its own image in reflection. And then it goes like this and it gets on a tine legs and it’s like trying to try and do attack itself. And it never stops because there’s a goddamn, stupid lizard. I have, I would love you to put this in notes. The only thing I am actually comfortable promoting my entire life is the Twitter account of. Our, bearded, our rescue bearded dragon. his name is Bando and it’s [00:58:00] on Twitter. It’s Bando. Amanda, B a N D O M a N D O N. It’s a, he’s a delight. Brett: [00:58:06] Oh, like, man, I get Merlin: [00:58:08] Yeah. Yeah. I doesn’t have to come up with something. Brett: [00:58:10] All right. Yeah. and I just want to, in case I didn’t put it in the beginning, if anyone doesn’t know, you look nice today as back and they have videos. Merlin: [00:58:24] Wait a minute. Why didn’t you tell me about this video aware what’s it on? Is it on like MySpace or like what. Okay. Yeah, we have a channel. You can also just, the new show is, that I’m having a lot of fun with. I almost don’t want to point people to the site because the audio is not nearly as fun as the videos, but, but you can learn more@californiaking.org. Also, we, I spent a couple of weeks, very happily resuscitating all of the old classic episodes of you look nice today. And those are available at  dot com. They’re nice and safe. They have a [00:59:00] home. They have a forever home now on fireside. Brett: [00:59:03] Nice. Yeah, I just, I built as in the process of moving over tired and systematic off of any networks, I had to build sites and I ended up being able to revive the original a hundred, some episodes that were five by five, which means, yeah, a couple of your appearances are now back available along with some that I was really sad, had disappeared and they’re all back now. And thanks to the internet archive and a bunch of crawling scripts. Merlin: [00:59:37] I mean what I went through to recreate this busted as Drupal site from 2008, I had to recreate so much like art. I had to take out so many broken links because, Oh, by the way, Dropbox doesn’t support hotlinks anymore. So I had to get rid of a lot of little blue question, Mark boxes, but isn’t that a nice feeling to like complete something like that. It’s like, and now I’m done. Brett: [00:59:59] yeah. [01:00:00] Accomplishments. Merlin: [01:00:02] Thanks for having me. Brett: [01:00:03] Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for being the first guest Merlin: [01:00:07] Yeah. Well, welcome back. I bet this, when this comes out, it’ll pop up in my eye, my overcast. Cool. Cool. Well, how do you feel about how apart from me talking so much, because I just had my add medicine. How do you feel like this went? Brett: [01:00:18] I feel like it was exactly what I expected it to be eat easy fluid conversation full of surprises and delights. Merlin: [01:00:26] Conversation full of fluids. Thanks for having me, Brett. Brett: [01:00:30] Yup. Thanks for being here.

Bill Carroll is a scuba diving instructor and marketing guy. Emily Hafele is a salon owner and part time model. They’ve come together and are pursuing a photo project and exploring visual storytelling. Sponsored By This episode of Systematic is brought to you by PDFpen and PDFpenPro, the ultimate tools for editing PDFs. If you want to get the most from your PDFs, Learn more about PDFpen and PDFpenPro at smilesoftware.com/podcast. Show notes -> Bill Carroll | Instagram -> Bill Carroll | Inspiring Stories of Diving Activism — The Sealives Initiative -> Emily Hafele | Instagram -> Studio Orange Salon -> emilyandbill.org -> emilyandbill on Instagram -> emilyandbill on YouTube -> Landmark Worldwide -> Help Your Harbor -> Duffy e-boats -> Newport Harbor Cleanup -> Project AWARE -> Sandmarc Wide Lens -> Beastgrip Universal Lens Adapter & Rig System -> Zhiyun Smooth 4 Gimbal Top 3 picks Bill and Emily: -> Blender Wine -> Vivino -> iPad Pro -> Lightroom for iOS -> iPhone XS Brett: -> Dyson V8 -> Dubs earplugs -> Etymotic Hi-fi earplugs -> Moshi Digits Follow -> @SystmCast on Twitter -> Brett on Twitter

Alex Fischer is a bookkeeper and financial consultant with Open Bookkeeping, and community organizer with The Root Social Justice Center. They join Brett to talk about anti-capitalist accounting, queer issues, activism, and (mostly Brett’s fault) cats. Sponsored by This episode is brought to you by TextExpander. Communicate smarter with snippets long and short, team sharing, and advanced fill-in and search capabilities for your text expansions. Visit textexpander.com/podcast for 20% off your first year. Show notes Open Bookkeeping The Root SJC The Root on Facebook The Root on YouTube Extreme Noise The Revolutionary Power of Financial Literacy Seminar in Oakland Cooperative Financial Education Kit Top 3 picks Alex: Full Moon night swims Teal Tarot Cards: "Collective Tarot" deck, "Slow Holler", "Wild Unknown" Follow @SystmCast on Twitter Brett on Twitter Join the Community!