REWORK

In a time when many companies are disregarding profitability and spending recklessly, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson have taken a different approach at 37signals. They believe that caring about costs is a timely concern and a fundamental principle for running a successful small business.In this episode of the “Rework” podcast, they sit down with Kimberly Rhodes to discuss the critical importance of cost management in today's business landscape.From reevaluating software subscriptions to establishing fixed pricing models, listen in as Jason and David share their proactive approach to cost management. They discuss strategies for navigating the dangers of unchecked expenses and eliminating unnecessary expenditures and their detrimental effects on a company’s long-term viability. Tune in as Jason and David share their practical insights and hard-won wisdom for building a sustainable AND profitable business in any economic climate. Show Notes:  [00:00] - Kimberly introduces the episode and opens today's discussion on the importance of caring about costs in business.[00:49] - As the availability of money is decreasing, companies are starting to realize the importance of profitability.[02:22] - Jason discusses the difficulty of shifting into a cost-conscious mindset and the common first steps of cutting costs.[03:39] - How to ensure profitability. [04:41] - David shares their experience during the dot-com boom and bust, which influenced their mindset of never wanting to be financially vulnerable. [06:24] - Why smaller bootstrap businesses must cultivate cost-conscious habits early on.[07:16] - Money buys independence (options, time, and flexibility). [08:07] - Redefining what makes financial sense and prioritizing cost-effectiveness—even if it's not your money.[08:50] - Companies are facing the harsh reality of survival. It’s time to focus on maintainable practices before it all comes crashing down. [09:40] - An opportunity to rein in wasteful spending for a more sustainable future.[10:37] - Without occasional controlled burns, the forest of technology becomes a ticking time bomb. [11:21] - A startup in Denmark is facing the end of their runway in just nine months—how they could extend their runway twofold.[12:19] - Kimberly shares about the caution-to-carelessness cycle that happens as small businesses begin to thrive. [12:43] - Jason shares how hard it is to break free from the spend-centric growth-chasing culture, especially when fueled by other people’s money. [14:13] - The "spend it all" mentality that creates a Monopoly-style illusion masking financial responsibility.[14:48] - The habit of spending is easily acquired, but making more than you spend is the real challenge, and in the next 18 months, companies lacking a profitable formula will face the music.[15:44] -Categorizing and Value Assessment: monitoring expenses depends on the stage of your business. [16:30] - David shares that if you evaluate costs beyond the immediate month or year, numbers that seem small become meaningful.[18:46] - Some costs can evoke disgust when examined closely—like our $3 million annual cloud bill—revealing their true magnitude[19:34] - A company should be a well-run, efficient system like a perfectly prepared hotdog.[20:42] - Kimberly shares that staffing and subscriptions are crucial to evaluate. Subscriptions, in particular, can accumulate and should be assessed for their value.[21:47] - David shares how 37signals prices their products and how overlooking unnecessary subscriptions can significantly impact your bottom line.[22:30] - Would you pay for multiple tools when one comprehensive so

If you've been following along with the podcast, you've heard the mention of two-person teams and how 37signals makes the most of its software features and productivity with just two people working together—one programmer and one designer. In this episode of the Rework podcast, 37signals co-founders Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson sit down with Kimberly Rhodes to dive deeper into the concept of two-person teams and share valuable insights on the benefits, challenges, and strategies behind their unique approach.Listen in as Jason and David share the importance of short-term cycles, the significance of building their own tools for maximum efficiency, and how these principles shape their company's operations. They also discuss the expansion of two-person teams into other areas of the organization and the limitations of working as a team of one. Tune in to discover how the power of two can revolutionize teamwork and productivity.Show Notes:  [00:00] - Today, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson are here to discuss the concept of smaller teams and how two-person teams are effective at 37signals. [00:48] - Jason shares that initially, teams at 37signals had three people, including two programmers and one designer, and why they changed to two people on each six-week cycle project. [01:33] - The constraint of having two people is not a resource issue but rather an opportunity to tighten project scopes and prioritize ideas. Direct communication between the programmer and designer eliminates translation layers and allows for efficient progress.[02:14] - How the direct collaboration of two-person teams sharing the same workspace enables rapid progress.[02:53] - David shares how working with web technologies improves two-person teams' efficiency and helps avoid delays caused by platform approvals or updates.[03:49] - The significant advantage for 37signals is that it eliminates the need for conversions.[04:44] - Enhancing the bandwidth between the two team members by removing obstacles and maximizing direct communication—how 37signals realized that having five programmers for Basecamp was too many.[05:40] - Blowing the minds of startups who think they need an army of programmers—the secrets of 37signals' productivity. [06:31] - New members easily integrate into the productive system, proving that anyone can embrace this approach.[06:45] - Two-person team pairings at 37signals are flexible—some stay together, some don't. [09:06] - Embracing the freedom of the two-person team approach by setting aside daily stand-ups and rigid check-ins in favor of a balance of oversight and support without unnecessary bureaucracy.[10:19] - The secret behind 37signals' unique management approach—how management, driven by processes rather than people, creates a more efficient work environment.[11:10] - How a simple set of questions and a six-week feature cycle can provide clarity while evaluating progress and fostering trust within the team.[12:48] - A drop of product management is all you need to drive success.[14:31] - How traditional software development approaches and large teams lead to excessive long-term planning, misguided processes, and massive hirings and firings.[16:02] - Challenging the status quo with smaller, nimble projects for greater success.[17:07] - Unlike industry giants, 37signals is focused on speed and efficiency.[19:05] - David shares the difference between producing something final instead of “a long conveyor belt of partial feature implementations that get put behind feature flags, and you have the proliferation of half-done work that has never moved off the plate.”[21:07] - Jason shares one of the biggest mistakes in business—what promises really get you (hint: it’s not to your t

On the previous episode of the Rework podcast, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, co-founders of 37signals, joined host Kimberly Rhodes to answer listener questions and share their insights on various topics such as project ownership, attracting talent, and building a successful team. This week, they return to address one question that deserved its own episode.Tune in as they reflect on a significant reset that occurred at 37signals in 2021 when many people left the company simultaneously due to a "no politics on work forums" stance. They discuss how they dealt with the high turnover rate and how that pivotal moment became the catalyst that caused them to reassess and make necessary changes to their company culture.  Plus, what they learned about the importance of making bold moves to drive progress and overcome stagnation.Show Notes:  [00:15] - Kimberly shares a listener question from a cardiac surgeon, Jeffrey Gibson, about the employee resignations at 37signals in 2021 when they implemented a "no politics on work forums" policy and asks for an update about how the policy is working.[01:24] - David discusses the importance of time in evaluating a decision and his pride in the decision. He highlights the positive outcomes that have resulted from it.[03:27] - David talks about renegotiating the separation between work and home and how this decision has helped to clarify the company's focus and values. [05:51] - The media gets involved: David shares his experience with media reports and how it has changed his perspective on them.[06:31] - "My personal sense is that the media, in general, has been covering itself in glory for a bit now, not just on that point, but on a lot of points." - David Heinemeier Hansson [07:23] - One of the most important and difficult decisions they have made as a company (and the positive outcomes for their workplace culture).[10:06] - A few regrets: Jason shares that the decision-making process during that time taught him to be careful about making other decisions in a fog and encourages others to project ahead and look back before making a decision.[11:38] - Kimberly asks if turnover allowed them a fresh start with changing the company culture.[12:00] - A mass exodus and a major reset.[13:22] - An opportunity to consider what matters—David explains how going through something challenging offers the chance to reassess your life, what you stand for, and where you're going.[14:53] - David discusses how difficult it is to ask big questions in daily life and how companies go through a similar process of reassessing what they want to be, what they stand for, and where they want to go.[15:38] - David reflects on the fruits of the company's efforts.[16:11] - Do you have questions for David and Jason about a better way to work and run your business? Leave your voicemails at 708-628-7850 or send an email. You can find show notes and transcripts on our website. You can also find us on Twitter.Links and Resources:Listener Questions / AMA | REWORK Listener Questions Part 2 | REWORK Changes at Basecamp by Jason Fried (April 2021)Basecamp's new etiquette regarding societal politics at work by David Heinemeier H

On last week's Rework podcast, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, co-founders of 37signals, joined host Kimberly Rhodes to answer listener questions about their approach to design, decision-making, and more.Today, they return to tackle more listener questions, covering a diverse range of topics such as delegating projects, hiring, and remote work.Listen in as they discuss their strategies for helping team members take ownership of their work and their tips on deploying projects. They also offer advice on attracting and retaining the right talent and discuss the role of communication and culture in building a successful team.Show Notes:  [00:26] - Sarah McKenzie asks for tips on delegating projects rather than tasks and helping team members take ownership of their work areas as she wants to move in this direction with her small team.[01:23] - Jason explains how Basecamp delegates projects instead of tasks. In contrast, team members are given a rough general idea of the project and some ideas for the interface design, and they figure out how to get it done in their own time.[02:57] - David adds that even new employees and junior programmers can handle owning a whole project.[04:38] - David shares that Shape Up's idea of a fixed time frame and flexible scope interlocks with delegating projects.[05:32] - Let people live up to high expectations and see who does it quickly and best. Delegating a project means evaluating work based on outcomes, not effort, allowing team members to make decisions and run autonomously within the project's scope. [06:28] - Julio Caesar from Sao Paulo, Brazil, asks DHH about the day-to-day work in a team of two, specifically about code review, pull requests, and dev to production deployments. He's concerned about the time wasted in long change management meetings and how to avoid having someone who doesn't know anything about the project approve a deploy.[07:11] - 37signals has teams of two working on different aspects of a product, with any given feature having a designer and a programmer working on it.[08:24] - David shares that the company has a process where someone is responsible for the quality of the work that goes out the door. There is a mentorship process for new hires. Programmers and designers review each other's work.[08:40] - In the Seven Shipping Principles, there is a notion that if the person is confident that the deploy is low-risk, they are not obligated to get a review. Even CTOs and senior employees sometimes request a review to increase their confidence. The team encourages individuals to have a strong sense of confidence and delegate the responsibility of reviews to themselves.[09:22] - The review process is asynchronous and shouldn't be a blocker.[10:29] - Jason shares that although anyone can deploy work, the company has never had a catastrophic deploy in its history. And rollbacks are very rare.[12:38] - A mystery caller asks David and Jason if they have any rules, constraints, or systems in place to help them decide when to grow and when not to grow, specifically around headcount and staffing.[13:02] - Jason explains that their hiring is department-based and based on specific needs rather than global goals. They follow the principle of "hire when it hurts" and aim to alleviate actual pain rather than future pain. [15:16] - Having two people is better than one—David shares an example where they had only one person in a role, and it was difficult for them to take a vacation or sabbatical without affecting the company. He also s

In this episode of Rework, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, co-founders of 37signals, join host Kimberly Rhodes to answer questions posed by Rework listeners. Listen in as they share their insights and experiences in running a successful software company by answering questions from podcast listeners on topics such as 37signals' approach to design, decision-making processes, product management, and balancing managerial roles and responsibilities.Tune in to hear their unique perspectives on these key aspects of building a successful software company.Show Notes:  [00:23] - Noel asks David and Jason about their philosophy on design systems and using components instead of reinventing the wheel every time. [01:01] - Jason explains that 37signals' website is a collection of ideas. The product itself is their design system. [03:07] - As with Basecamp and Hey, design consistency can emerge naturally.[03:30] - David shares that large organizations typically use design systems to standardize processes. [05:34] - Why it makes sense for individual designers to have ownership over the design process for small teams like 37signals.[06:52] - Listener Paul asks how David and Jason resolve conflicts and make difficult decisions.[07:02] - Jason explains conflicts are rare among the team and shares how they handle the things they don't agree on (without keeping score). [08:18] - Why it's important to remember most decisions are temporary.  [08:59] - Jason shares an example of the rare occurrences when they might battle. [09:49] - Setting the standards for a smooth workflow.[11:30] - David's philosophy: "A willingness to try anything as long as there's an expiration on the experiment and a way to tell whether it went one way or the other."[12:55] - Jason explains why they don't need to consult each other for every decision—even the BIG ones, like leaving the cloud. [14:28] - Prioritizing independence, competency, and TRUST.[16:50] - Podcast listener Tim asks Jason and David to discuss 37signals' approach to product management and some of their methods over the years.[17:20] - David shares how using software to gather and distribute information, allowing teams to make decisions, leads to everyone rowing in the same boat.[20:19] - Jason adds that with two-person teams, there is a direct relationship between the programmer and designer, and management would get in the way.[22:21] - Fighting hard against traditional managerial responsibilities because having managers invent work for other people can wreck a good thing (David and Jason only wear the hats of CTO and CEO occasionally).[23:25] - Do you have questions for David and Jason about a better way to work and run your business? Leave your voicemails at 708-628-7850 or email. Links and Resources:Sign up for a 30-day free trial at Basecamp.comHEY World | HEY Leaving the Cloud | REWORK Leaving the Cloud Part 2 | REWORK Dev.37signals37signals on YouTubeThe REWORK podcastThe 37signals Dev Blog@reworkpodcast on Twitter@37signals on Twitter 

In this episode of Rework, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, co-founders of 37signals, join host Kimberly Rhodes to discuss the power of taking sabbaticals as business owners.Jason recently returned to work after taking his first sabbatical in nearly 23 years. He and David share their experiences and insights on the benefits of taking extended breaks from work. They cover the challenges of stepping away from a business you've built, the importance of trusting your team to handle things in your absence, and the value of returning to work with a fresh perspective. Listen in to hear their practical advice for business owners considering taking a sabbatical and the positive impact time away can have on both individuals and the company.Show Notes:  [00:43] - Jason shares why he took his first sabbatical in nearly 23 years and how disconnecting completely from work gave him a new perspective. [01:49] - David shares his forced sabbatical experience when he had to move to Denmark. He shares his opinion that it's healthy for the organization's resiliency to have its founders step out.[04:41] - Why feeling like you can't take a vacation is unhealthy.[05:46] - Disconnecting during a sabbatical: Jason shares his experience that portrays the importance of taking time off and what he did during reentry to avoid overwhelm. [08:08] - David emphasizes the importance of taking a REAL break and trusting others to carry on, so you can return to work with a clearer mind and a better perspective on what truly matters.[09:57] - Jason shares why, if anything had to wait for him to return to be decided, it might be a symptom of overreliance on any one individual.[10:30] - Kimberly shares why there's usually a scramble to get things done before a regular vacation and asks how preparing for a sabbatical differs. [11:27] - Jason shares the writing he did before taking off.[12:23] - David shares his realization that there are big foundational tenants of how they work that will stay the same, even if one of the principles is out for an extended time.[14:00] - Shifting the work to get projects where more people can independently drive them.[16:38] - Don't fear the sabbatical: remember, you are not as important as you think. Jason advises people to trust their team. [17:53] - The importance of enjoying boredom: David shares how sabbaticals allow the mind enough space to work on the business in your head and remind you why you do what you do. [19:47] - It's time to answer those questions! Kimberly announces that next week's podcast episode will answer listener questions. Leave your voicemails at 708-628-7850 or send an email with questions about a better way to work and run your business. Links and Resources:Do you have a question for Jason and David? Leave us a voicemail at 708-628-7850The Power of Time Off | REWORK It Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work HEY World | HEY Dev.37signalsSign Up for 30-day FREE trial at Basecamp.com37signals on YouTubeThe REWORK podcastThe 37signals Dev Blog@reworkpodcast on Twitter@37signals on Twitter 

In October 2022, 37signals announced they would transition off cloud services in a post titled "Why We're Leaving the Cloud."  Despite the advantages of the cloud, the downsides were too significant for the company. In this follow-up episode to Leaving the Cloud on REWORK, co-founder David Heinemeier Hansson and Director of Operations Eron Nicholson discuss the progress 37signals has made since they decided to leave the cloud. Listen in as they delve into the pros and cons of using the cloud versus owning your hardware and some of the misconceptions people have about cloud costs and expertise. Tune in as the pair shares insights from their experience running web applications at scale and offer advice, tips, and tools for startups and businesses looking to optimize their infrastructure. Join the discussion as they explore the importance of getting real about the costs of the cloud for small businesses.Show Notes:  [00:49] - David reflects on the progress made since the announcement to transition off of cloud services. And why their initial plan for help with the transition didn't work for 37signals' needs. [01:37] - How the experience with the failed deal to get help with the cloud transition reinforced the idea of why 37signals wanted to leave the cloud.[02:33] - David shares some tools that can be used to move out of the cloud, including Docker and Kubernetes. [04:21] - Why 37signals opted for a new tool they built called Kamal to assist in their transition and their timeline for being entirely out of the cloud.[06:11] - Bleeding money: The $38,000 motivator to speed up the timeline and free up cash that could be better spent elsewhere in the business.[08:33] - The tools: Eron and David discuss the tools (Docker and Kamal) they've used to successfully move two apps, Tadalist and Writeboard, from the cloud to their new system and the template in place for moving the rest of their apps. [11:08] - David discusses the criticality ladder they have in place to prioritize their move off the cloud, beginning with the lowest criticality app (Tadalist) before moving on to higher criticality apps like Hey, which deals with email and must always be available to users.[13:23] - The app transition plan for the next few months.[13:58] - Eron explains the challenges of staffing up for a project of this magnitude. He also highlights how many of their current AWS-related processes will become streamlined once they have their own infrastructure.[16:00] - David shares what the cloud is great for, why it doesn't work great for middle-range SaaS companies, and the main reasons for 37signals for bringing their infrastructure back in-house.[19:31] - Eron explains their advantage in moving back to their own infrastructure and why he hopes that their experience will encourage others to consider moving away from the cloud as well.[20:24] - Blowing the notion that the cloud is the only option to smithereens: David reflects on the lost knowledge of running your own hardware and the vendors who can help. [23:17] - Eron shares how you can lease from vendors like Deft, Digital Ocean, or Hetzner until it makes sense for you to buy your own servers.[23:46] - David discusses the importance of exploring alternatives to AWS, breaking the misconception that the cloud is the only option, and exploring the most cost-effective solution for your company. [26:04] - David responds to a comment suggesting they could have saved money by optimizing cloud costs and the possibly "crippling" variability of cloud costs that is a major concern for smaller companies—a risk eliminated by owning your own hard

Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson, co-founders of 37signals, advocate for taking extended breaks from work, as outlined in their book "It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work." While this practice is relatively common in many parts of the world, it's less common in North America.In this episode of Rework, host Kimberly Rhodes is joined by Jeff Hardy, a programmer at 37signals, as he shares his experience taking a one-month sabbatical and discusses the benefits of stepping away from work to refresh your mind.Tune in as Jeff offers advice on establishing boundaries and disconnecting from work while on vacation to maintain a healthy work-life balance and tips for smoothly transitioning back into work after an extended absence.Show Notes:  [00:47] - Jeff introduces himself and how his role in product development at 37signals has evolved over the last 15 years. [01:29] - Jeff shares why you need to be in the right mindset to avoid burnout and remain effective in your work.[04:02] - Learn from Jeff as he shares effective strategies to disconnect from work and fully embrace your sabbatical with these helpful tips.[06:07] - The two outcomes of extended time away from work.  [06:52] - Why Jeff ended his sabbatical during a meetup. [07:59] - Jeff reveals the transformative power of taking a break and how it can lead to a profound shift in your perspective[09:54] - The key to understanding (and accepting) that you are not that important.  [10:56] - The importance of perspective: learn to see your job is just a portion of your life, not your whole life. [12:33] - Jeff shares his tips for effectively utilizing vacation time to disconnect from work and refresh your mind.[13:46] - The ingredients you need for a successful work story. [15:04] - Discover how taking a sabbatical can provide a much-needed break without a complete disconnect.[15:40] - Jeff shares his key takeaways from his sabbatical and the lessons he learned about himself and his job. [17:35] - Do you have a question for Jason and David or anyone at 37signals? Leave us a voicemail at 708-628-7850, and we might answer it on an upcoming show. Links and Resources:Do you have a question for Jason and David? Leave us a voicemail at 708-628-7850It Doesn’t Have to Be Crazy at Work HEY World | HEY Dev.37signalsSign Up for 30-day FREE trial at Basecamp.com37signals on YouTubeThe REWORK podcastThe 37signals Dev Blog@reworkpodcast on Twitter@37signals on Twitter 

Remote work has become increasingly popular in recent years, offering several benefits, such as increased flexibility and the ability to work anywhere globally. However, there are some challenges that come with remote work and it’s certainly not for all companies. In this episode of the Rework podcast, 37signals co-founders Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson discuss these issues and how they've overcome them from their book, Rework.They share insights on how to work together across different time zones, ways to stay connected while working remotely, and the benefits of remote work for both employees and employers. Listen in to find out what remote work has to offer, along with its challenges and benefits, from two seasoned advocates.Show Notes:  [00:36] - 37signals is as remote as they've ever been. [01:02] - The challenges of time zones in a remote work environment, especially when training or mentoring new employees. [02:22] - Jason discusses the importance of scheduling and pairing employees with compatible time zones, depending on their experience level. [03:57] - David shares why from his perspective, four hours is the ideal amount of time zone overlap for remote collaboration.[05:32] - Why it's essential to be strategic about where you hire from, given the challenges of time zone differences.[06:13] - While asynchronous communication is useful, synchronous communication is needed to crack through some tasks.[07:52] - How 37signals twice-yearly meetups are more of an investment than an expense, unlike the cost of an office.[08:35] - Humans are not built for fully remote work—why meeting in person is necessary to reduce loneliness, recharge batteries, and create better team relationships.[10:57] - Why simply installing communication tools like Slack and Zoom without changing work practices offers the worst of both worlds and results in a subpar remote work experience.[12:20] - The potential pitfalls and tradeoffs of the new hybrid work model.[14:10] - The benefits of being able to hire the best talent from anywhere in the world and allowing employees the freedom to live and work in multiple locations.[16:22] - Jason discusses why some companies are requiring employees to return to the office after the pandemic and both advantages and disadvantages. [17:46] - David shares why either way is OK—some companies thrive with having an in-person culture catering to the needs of employees who prefer working in an office, while there should be more remote work options for those who prefer working from home.[20:38] - Busting the myth that remote work is impossible, creating more options for people, but the future of work remains to be seen.[22:39] - Leave a voicemail at 708-628-7850 or email us with questions for David and Jason about remote work or running a business for a chance to have it answered on an upcoming episode.Links and Resources:ReworkDo you have a question for Jason and David? Leave us a voicemail at 708-628-7850 or email usHEY World | HEY Sign up for a 30-day free trial at Basecamp.com 37signals on YouTubeThe REWORK podcastThe 37signals Dev Blog@reworkpodcast on Twitter@37signals on Twitter

Writing is crucial for communication and collaboration in both remote and in-person organizations.But how do you find and hire great writers? Today, Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansson sit down to share why writing is at the heart of the success of 37signals and why they believe it's essential for every employee to be a skilled writer, regardless of their title or role.  Listen in as they walk us through the process they use to "Hire Great Writers" from their book, Rework. Join us to learn about the critical role that writing plays in collaboration, clarifying ideas, and unlocking solutions to the problems that have been keeping you stuck. Plus, discover how the developers at Basecamp and Hey are using writing to showcase their skills and share the solutions to their challenges. Show Notes:  [00:37] - Jason shares why the cover letter is the most crucial aspect of the hiring process at 37signals.  [01:34] - David shares how writing works to both set the tone for collaboration and as a 'magic filter' for eliminating BS.[02:26] - The personal scrutiny filter to use before you bother other people. [03:14] - The key to unlocking a stuck situation.[04:18] - The magic of writing and a few of the by-products.[05:17] - Meetings are toxic; why writing is a better way to do the bulk of collaboration.[06:23] - Why 37signals asks you to "show your work" during the hiring process.[07:53] - Why it's a good idea to "treat code as prose."[08:39] - No jargon required: designers and programmers need to be able to speak a shared language for a successful collaboration. [09:30] - For more behind-the-scenes, check out the technical blog at Dev.37signals, where the people who build Basecamp and Hey share about their work, the problems they've run into, and provide insight into how they've solved them.  Links and Resources:The 37signals Dev BlogReworkDo you have a question for Jason and David? Leave us a voicemail at 708-628-7850 or email usHEY World | HEY Sign Up for 30-day FREE trial at Basecamp.com37signals on YouTubeThe REWORK podcast@reworkpodcast on Twitter@37signals on Twitter