

No Way Out
Mark McGrath and Brian "Ponch" Rivera
Welcome to the No Way Out podcast where we examine the variety of domains and disciplines behind John R. Boyd’s OODA sketch and why, today, more than ever, it is an imperative to understand Boyd’s axiomatic sketch of how organisms, individuals, teams, corporations, and governments comprehend, shape, and adapt in our VUCA world.
Episodes
Mentioned books

4 snips
Jul 16, 2025 • 1h 23min
Reorienting Safety: Human and Organizational Performance (HOP) with Todd Conklin
In a thought-provoking conversation, Todd Conklin, a renowned professor in Human and Organizational Performance (HOP), discusses transforming safety from mere harm avoidance to building organizational capacity. He emphasizes that workers are not the problem, but rather the essential problem solvers, urging a paradigm shift in safety management. The talk critiques traditional safety practices and highlights the importance of context, psychological safety, and adaptive risk management, advocating for a more collaborative approach to enhancing workplace safety.

4 snips
Jul 9, 2025 • 1h 2min
From Big Bang to Brain: How Entropy Shapes Safety and Systems with David Slater, PhD
In this engaging conversation, Professor David Slater, an expert in neuroscience and safety, connects the dots between human behavior and organizational resilience. He compares the precision of Formula 1 pit crews to the adaptability required in safety protocols, revealing how humans often modify systems in practice. Slater challenges traditional views on 'human error,' stressing that perception plays a crucial role in decision-making. He also discusses how thermodynamics and entropy can enhance understanding of organizational safety, advocating for a science-based approach to complex systems.

Jul 2, 2025 • 1h 14min
Pre-Event Indicators: Staying Left of Bang With Patrick Van Horne
Patrick Van Horne, co-author of "Left of Bang" and former Marine Corps Combat Hunter instructor, reveals how his framework for threat detection can be applied beyond combat to business and everyday life. He discusses the importance of anticipating disruptions, establishing baselines, and recognizing weak signals to avoid reactive responses. Van Horne emphasizes adaptive growth over collapse during crises and explains how situational awareness can lead to success. The conversation also explores evolving urban dynamics and the balance between flexibility and preparedness.

7 snips
Jun 26, 2025 • 1h 11min
Learning War, Winning in the Age of AI: Lessons in Adaptive Strategy with Trent Hone
Trent Hone, a naval historian and author of Learning War, shares insights on how the US Navy thrived amidst rapid technological changes during the early 20th century. He discusses the Navy's innovative decentralized approach, where junior officers tested ideas and the organization assessed results. Hone contrasts this with modern centralized practices, stressing the need for a culture of experimentation. The conversation also covers leadership lessons from commanders like Nimitz and Spruance, emphasizing adaptability and collaboration in complex, uncertain environments.

Jun 2, 2025 • 1h 5min
Drones, Airspace, AI, and Decision Making: DroneUp CEO on Leading in Complexity
Tom Walker, CEO of DroneUp and former Navy officer, shares his insights on the rapid evolution of drone technology. He discusses the challenges of integrating over a million drones into US airspace and the crucial need for safety measures. Drawing from his military experience, he emphasizes teamwork and adaptability in leadership. Walker also highlights the delicate balance between AI automation and human oversight in critical decision-making, advocating for innovative solutions that prioritize safety and collaborative approaches in the industry.

22 snips
May 13, 2025 • 52min
Top Gun Day Special: The Four Ps of OODA
On Top Gun Day, the hosts delve into John Boyd's OODA Loop, breaking down the Four Ps: Perception, Pathfinding, Prediction, and Planning. They challenge misconceptions, emphasizing the approach's origins across multiple disciplines. The discussion includes insights on cognitive warfare, adaptation in decision-making, and the fluid dynamics of teamwork during crises. Vibrant cultural references to 'Last of the Mohicans' and breathing techniques reveal the OODA Loop's rich applicability, from sports to corporate strategies.

12 snips
Apr 30, 2025 • 1h 21min
The Elk Hunter's Journey: Leadership, Adaptability, and Self-Discovery in the Wild with Gilbert Ornelas and Joe Giglia
Join Gilbert Ornelas and Joe Giglia, passionate elk hunters and coaches from the Blue Collar Elk Hunting Network. They explore profound life lessons from elk hunting, emphasizing adaptability and self-awareness. The duo discusses how a 95% failure rate in hunting teaches perseverance. They also delve into decision-making strategies like the OODA loop, and draw parallels between hunting tactics and business leadership. Their insights highlight the importance of mentorship, teamwork, and connecting with nature for personal growth and effective leadership.

Apr 2, 2025 • 1h 6min
From Cockpit to OR: Surgical Precision and Team Performance With Dr. Matt Cooper
Dr. Matt Cooper, MD, MBA, FACS, FAsM, FCA, a specialist in surgical precision and team performance, shares riveting stories from both the operating room and the cockpit. He discusses the OODA loop's application in healthcare, revealing how shared awareness helps medical teams catch critical errors. The conversation dives into the necessity for trust and communication in high-stakes environments, the impact of ego on leadership, and how artificial intelligence can enhance human abilities. Discover why viewing patients as complex systems can transform healthcare delivery.

Mar 26, 2025 • 2h 31min
Alan Green and The America Codes: We Are One (No Way Out Ep. 113)
Send us a textDive into an electrifying episode of No Way Out that will leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about America’s founding—and the very fabric of reality itself. Host Ponch and veteran co-host Bart welcome Alan Green, a polymath whose 20-year journey decoding Shakespeare’s secrets has unearthed a mind-bending revelation: the America Codes, hidden within the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. This isn’t just history—it’s a cosmic puzzle that ties sacred geometry, ancient pyramids, and the unity of humanity into a narrative so wild it feels like a Hollywood script. Buckle up for a ride that’s equal parts profound, emotional, and paradigm-shattering. In this episode, Alan unveils how the Declaration’s 6,771 characters—mirroring 1776—form a cryptographic masterpiece laced with Freemasonic symbolism. From deliberate “mistakes” by calligrapher Timothy Matlack (highlighted with carrot markers!) to a grid of 111-character lines echoing the Holy Trinity, the document screams intention. Jefferson’s own draft reveals anti-slavery passages axed for political compromise, while Franklin’s genius weaves in geometric clues—like the Great Seal’s pyramid slope angle (67.38°) forming a rare 12-13-5 triangle where perimeter equals area. But it gets crazier: divide the Earth-Moon distance (in feet) by 6,771 and you hit the speed of light. The Sun-Earth distance? It ties to the Platonic solids of creation. Random? AI says the odds are less than one in a trillion. Dive into the full 22-video series at tobeornottobe.org (No Way Out discount starts March 26 and ends April 26, 2025). Watch this Episode on X, YouTube or on The Whirl of ReorientationNWO Intro with Boyd March 25, 2025 Flow Learning Lab Find us on X. @NoWayOutcast Substack: The Whirl of ReOrientation Want to develop your organization’s capacity for free and independent action (Organic Success)? Learn more and follow us at:https://www.aglx.com/https://www.youtube.com/@AGLXConsultinghttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aglx-consulting-llc/https://www.linkedin.com/in/briandriverahttps://www.linkedin.com/in/markjmcgrath1https://www.linkedin.com/in/stevemccroneStay in the Loop. Don't have time to listen to the podcast? Want to make some snowmobiles? Subscribe to our weekly newsletter to receive deeper insights on current and past episodes.Recent podcasts where you’ll also find Mark and Ponch: The No Bell Podcast Episode 24...

36 snips
Mar 24, 2025 • 1h 8min
Boyd's Real OODA Loop: Deconstructing TEoWL with Chet Richards
Chet Richards, a close colleague of John Boyd, offers a rare glimpse into the intricate workings of the OODA loop framework. He clarifies the misconceptions surrounding Boyd's original sketch, emphasizing its complexity centered on orientation. The discussion dives into the concept of implicit guidance and control, revealing how elite performers achieve flow states through deliberate practice. Richards also highlights the importance of unity in high-performing teams, showcasing how collective experiences foster intuitive responses for effective decision-making.