

No Way Out
Mark McGrath and Brian "Ponch" Rivera
Welcome to the No Way Out podcast where we examine the variety of domains and disciplines behind John R. Boyd’s OODA sketch and why, today, more than ever, it is an imperative to understand Boyd’s axiomatic sketch of how organisms, individuals, teams, corporations, and governments comprehend, shape, and adapt in our VUCA world.
Episodes
Mentioned books

6 snips
Oct 1, 2025 • 1h 32min
Military Hardware to Mental Health: Perceptual Control Theory with Warren Mansell, PhD
Warren Mansell, PhD, a clinical psychologist and professor at the Enable Institute, dives deep into Perceptual Control Theory (PCT). He reveals how our behaviors reflect an ongoing control of perceptions, rather than simple reactions. Mansell explores psychological conflicts arising from competing goals, the role of consciousness in reorganizing these conflicts, and how PCT offers insights into leadership dynamics. He even discusses the transformative effects of meditation and psychedelics in down-regulating habitual patterns, sparking profound insights.

Sep 25, 2025 • 1h 8min
Autism, Telepathy and New "Outside" Information with Dr. Julia Mossbridge
Dr. Julia Mossbridge, a cognitive neuroscientist exploring precognition and telepathy, shares groundbreaking insights on how human physiology can anticipate future events. She introduces the concept of the 'informational substrate,' which proposes that reality may be rooted in information rather than matter. Joining her is Sarah Kernion, a parent of two non-speaking autistic children, who discusses their unique ability to absorb multiple streams of information. Together, they challenge traditional notions of consciousness, time, and the capabilities of neurodiverse individuals.

Sep 18, 2025 • 1h 31min
TOPGUN vs. Major Boyd: Humans Over Algorithms with CAPT Dan Pederson
CAPT Dan Pederson, the 'Godfather' of TOPGUN, shares the compelling origin story of the Navy Fighter Weapons School, established to tackle a dire 2:1 kill ratio in aerial combat. He details the rapid creation of a human-centric curriculum emphasizing pilot skill over mere technology, ultimately achieving a staggering 24:1 kill ratio. Pederson discusses innovative tactics like vertical fighting and introduces principles of psychological safety in debriefings, urging organizations to prioritize mentorship and human capabilities even as AI reshapes industries.

14 snips
Sep 4, 2025 • 1h 7min
AI’s D&C Cycles Accelerate: Harmonizing Agents and The Big 'O’rientation with Mahault Albarracin, PhD
In a thought-provoking discussion, Mahault Albarracin, PhD, Director of Research Strategy at VERSES AI, draws from her social sciences background to explore the intersection of neuroscience and AI. She challenges the notion that more power is the answer, advocating for systems that understand context and think like humans. The conversation dissects the OODA loop and highlights the importance of agency in adaptive systems. Albarracin also critiques prevalent AI doom narratives and underscores the necessity for ethical alignment and meaningful connectivity among intelligent agents.

28 snips
Aug 26, 2025 • 1h 5min
Human-Agent Team of Teams: Active Inference AI & The Spatial Web w/ Dr. David Bray and Denise Holt
Dr. David Bray and Denise Holt dive into the transformative power of active inference AI and the spatial web. Bray explains how these new AI models mimic biological intelligence, enabling continuous learning and adaptability while promoting human agency. Holt discusses the spatial web's potential to redefine our digital interactions, prioritizing individual control over data. Together, they highlight the critical shift from centralized systems to decentralized networks, fostering collaboration and ethical standards in technology. This dynamic conversation challenges traditional paradigms and inspires new ways of thinking.

50 snips
Jul 29, 2025 • 1h 46min
Outmaneuver Complexity: AI Gold Rush 2.0 & Adaptive Capacity with David Woods, PhD
In this discussion, Dr. David Woods, a pioneer of resilience engineering, delves into how organizations can build adaptive capacity in complex environments. He reflects on lessons from high-risk industries, where prioritizing short-term productivity leads to fragile systems that can break under pressure. Woods argues for the need to reframe our mental models to better navigate change, drawing parallels between biological adaptability and organizational resilience. With compelling examples from aviation and crisis management, he highlights the importance of long-term thinking and psychological safety.

4 snips
Jul 16, 2025 • 1h 23min
Reorienting Safety: Human and Organizational Performance (HOP) with Todd Conklin
In a thought-provoking conversation, Todd Conklin, a renowned professor in Human and Organizational Performance (HOP), discusses transforming safety from mere harm avoidance to building organizational capacity. He emphasizes that workers are not the problem, but rather the essential problem solvers, urging a paradigm shift in safety management. The talk critiques traditional safety practices and highlights the importance of context, psychological safety, and adaptive risk management, advocating for a more collaborative approach to enhancing workplace safety.

4 snips
Jul 9, 2025 • 1h 2min
From Big Bang to Brain: How Entropy Shapes Safety and Systems with David Slater, PhD
In this engaging conversation, Professor David Slater, an expert in neuroscience and safety, connects the dots between human behavior and organizational resilience. He compares the precision of Formula 1 pit crews to the adaptability required in safety protocols, revealing how humans often modify systems in practice. Slater challenges traditional views on 'human error,' stressing that perception plays a crucial role in decision-making. He also discusses how thermodynamics and entropy can enhance understanding of organizational safety, advocating for a science-based approach to complex systems.

Jul 2, 2025 • 1h 14min
Pre-Event Indicators: Staying Left of Bang With Patrick Van Horne
Patrick Van Horne, co-author of "Left of Bang" and former Marine Corps Combat Hunter instructor, reveals how his framework for threat detection can be applied beyond combat to business and everyday life. He discusses the importance of anticipating disruptions, establishing baselines, and recognizing weak signals to avoid reactive responses. Van Horne emphasizes adaptive growth over collapse during crises and explains how situational awareness can lead to success. The conversation also explores evolving urban dynamics and the balance between flexibility and preparedness.

7 snips
Jun 26, 2025 • 1h 11min
Learning War, Winning in the Age of AI: Lessons in Adaptive Strategy with Trent Hone
Trent Hone, a naval historian and author of Learning War, shares insights on how the US Navy thrived amidst rapid technological changes during the early 20th century. He discusses the Navy's innovative decentralized approach, where junior officers tested ideas and the organization assessed results. Hone contrasts this with modern centralized practices, stressing the need for a culture of experimentation. The conversation also covers leadership lessons from commanders like Nimitz and Spruance, emphasizing adaptability and collaboration in complex, uncertain environments.