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On today’s podcast, we interviewed Aneesa Muthana, owner of Pioneer Service Inc., a CNC machine shop that features 26 Star CNC Swiss lathes. Aneesa shared her fond memories of being raised on the floor of a centerless grinding shop, M&M Quality Grinding, founded by her Yemeni immigrant parents. While other girls were playing with Barbie dolls, Aneesa relished learning to use micrometers and cleaning out oil tanks from Cincinnati centerless grinders. At 23 she left M&M, where she had once thought she would stay forever, and bought into Pioneer Service Inc. a Brown & Sharpe shop owned by her uncle. Aneesa shared her views on a number of topics, including how women are treated in the machining industry, her preference to work with Star CNC Swiss lathes over Samsung and Brown & Sharpe machines, and the significance of the hijab she wears. Question: Is being a woman in the machining industry an advantage or disadvantage?

Today I’m going to tell you how to get lucky. It seems like some people are always in the right place at the right time getting all the lucky breaks, while the rest of us watch from the sidelines. I often feel like I’m in that sideline category too. But as used machinery dealers, our business is fueled by luck, or as I like to call it, serendipity. So I’ve spent years figuring out how to make luck happen more often. (Blog continues below video) ************* Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! *************   Check out the video I made breaking down the whole story on my YouTube channel, I Learned It on a Podcast. Back in 2021, I was feeling sort of stuck. It wouldn’t be accurate to say I felt down on my luck, but it didn’t feel like I was getting the lucky break I needed either. Then one morning on my drive to work, I heard Christian Busch on The Next Big Idea podcast talking about his book The Serendipity Mindset. Here was a UCLA business professor explaining that luck isn’t random. It’s something you can actively create. Busch says serendipity is about seeing something in the unexpected and then doing something with it, turning it into positive outcomes. I was fascinated, but I was also excited that maybe this was the answer to being luckier, to getting more luck. I sent him an email asking if he would come on Swarfcast. He said yes. That conversation became one of my favorite episodes. But I didn’t realize at the time that the email itself was what Busch calls a “serendipity bomb.” Serendipity Bombs A serendipity bomb means casting a wide net instead of obsessing over one prospect. When I have an INDEX MS22-8 or a Doosan twin-spindle to sell, we try to contact lots of people who might be interested, even long shots. Most won’t respond, but we only need one buyer. Some people call this playing a numbers game, but lucky people do this all the time. It’s like throwing a Hail Mary. You only get the catch because you put the ball in the air. Serendipity and Creativity It was only a matter of time before I made an I Learned It on a Podcast episode about the podcast that introduced me to serendipity. For those new here, I Learned It on a Podcast is my YouTube show where I break down the best insights I find while listening to way too many podcasts. This concept has shaped how I approach business, relationships, and creative projects. So here’s the season finale, honestly, the episode I’ve been building toward since I started this show. In his book, Busch quotes Louis Pasteur: “Chance favors only the prepared mind.” That’s the key to creative serendipity: being prepared to see potential in accidents and unexpected combinations. This whole show exists because dots connected over time. Last August, feeling stale, my life coach Ginny suggested I get on YouTube. The I Learned It on a Podcast idea had been rattling around for years. I couldn’t find a co-host, so I made the first video on my own. Then I discovered AI could help write scripts, and my editor became a creative partner. All these separate elements connected into something I couldn’t have imagined a year ago. Six weeks ago, shooting late and struggling with camera framing, I stumbled upon a video about creators making short, unpolished videos several days a week. I thought to myself, “I could make short raw videos about serendipity, and hopefully it wouldn’t take all my free time.” So that night I shot the first serendipity video. In the end, I’ve realized the biggest luck was discovering Busch’s book in the first place and realizing that not only could I become a good practitioner of serendipity, I liked telling others about it too. Next time you listen to a podcast or read something or have a conversation where you learn something that could be important, be mindful. Think about it at the end of the day and write it down. Ask yourself: could this thing I learned today change my life, at least a little? If you believe it could, take action. Try using what you learned. Will there be another season of I Learned It on a Podcast? I hope so down the line. We’ll see where the dots lead me. But for now, I’m launching a new series soon. I think I’m going to call it Serendipity Diary. That’s just what my nudge is telling me. Question: What was a lucky moment that had a significant effect on your life?

My guest on today’s show is Kris Fugate, President of Revolution Machine Works, a prominent rotary transfer machine rebuilder, specializing in Hydromats. Hydromats can seem strange and overwhelming to those unfamiliar with them. Some say they their circular shape with 12 or 16 work stations reminds them of a UFO, and the machines can crank out complex turned parts like nothing else out there. ************* Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Interview Highlights How Rotary Transfers Work Kris started the interview explaining how rotary transfer machines, particularly Hydromats, function and why they are such unique productive machines. How is it possible that parts which require several multi-spindle screw machines, or have cycle times of 2 minutes on a CNC lathe, can run complete on a Hydromat in 20 seconds? Most Hydromats are configured in a rotary dial-like shape. Unlike on a screw machine, in which the bar of material rotates and the tools are stationary, on a Hydromat the bar remains stationary and the tools rotate. Each station (unit) of the transfer machine functions like a CNC lathe or CNC mill. Units can do work such as turning, threading, milling etc. Each station machines one operation and then transfers the part to the next station for the next operation.  Advantages of Hydromats over other Turning Machines Hydromats have individual feeds and speeds in each station, so they aren’t held captive to the slowest operation, such as on an Acme-Gridley or other traditional multi-spindle screw machine. They usually come equipped with an inverting unit, which removes a part from a collet, rotates it and places it back in the collet so it can be machined from the other side. This feature makes Hydromats ideal for machining double sided fittings.  Unlike a lot of other rotary transfer machines, which are set up with the stations vertically arranged in the trunnion style that resembles a Ferris wheel, most Hydromats are set up horizontally, more like a carousel. This enables modular units that can be easily swapped, making easy, quick changeovers.  Also, Hydromats are designed with a hirth ring coupling, which enables them to maintain tight tolerances part after part.  Revolution Machine Works Kris’s company, Revolution Machine Works, services and sells refurbished and rebuilt turnkey Hydromats, and also supplies Hydromat spare parts. They often do entire overhauls on the machines, stripping them down to the casting. They rebuild units, and equip the machines with new Fanuc controls. While the Hydromats that Revolution provides are the non-CNC hydraulic generation, the company sometimes equips the machines with individual CNC units made by the Italian rotary transfer machine company DM2. Revolution Machine Works also distributes new DM2 machines in the U.S. Hydromats are Tough Business Since I went into the used machinery business over a decade ago, I’ve spent a lot of time learning about Hydromat rotary transfer machines. I’ve traveled to Germany, Italy, Switzerland and Norway to find them because you can make a nice buck if you find the right customer. Still, it’s always seemed like we had to have 10 interested customers to sell one Hydromat. It can get frustrating watching the machines sit in the Graff-Pinkert warehouse for years. Why do customers hesitate to buy these machines that can crank out great parts by the millions. Perhaps its because they often cost a few hundred thousand dollars, and then a bunch more money to set up. Kris could relate to my experience. A rebuilt, turnkey Hydromat, has double or triple the price tag of one that Graff-Pinkert would sell, and the customers expect considerable service.  In the interview, Kris pointed out a lot of the other challenges Hydromat customers face. The machines take up a lot of floor space—perhaps large enough to fit three CNC machines. They require at least one expert to keep them running correctly, and it can take six months to a year to train a Hydromat operator. Kris says he and colleagues often joke that they picked the hardest way to make money. We both agreed that it’s much easier to sell a Hydromat to someone who already has them. They have units on the shelf, expertise, comfort, and enough work for the machines.  Yet Kris says his work is most rewarding when he is able to get a new client into the Hydromat business. A Hydromat can be a game changer for a company in the high volume parts business, yet a purchase comes with significant risk. Years ago, he ran Hydromats in his family’s machining company D & S Machine Pts. He says he can still remember how it felt when the company paid over a million dollars to buy its first new Hydromat, its biggest capital investment at the time. I can tell that being able to put himself in the shoes of his customers is helpful for Kris to sell machines, but more importantly, it’s clear that it gives him a sense of purpose. Question: Do you prefer to buy, used, rebuilt, or brand new machine tools?

What if I told you there’s a tool that can look at a photo of your weld and tell you exactly what you screwed up. The tool could also help you figure out that your machining problem isn’t your end mill, it’s actually your coolant, and it costs less than hiring one person? On today’s show, I’m talking with Adam Marsh, president of Ledge Inc, who calls his company an “AI integrator” for manufacturing companies. Think robot integrator, but for artificial intelligence. His company provides tools that can analyze photos for quality issues, plan purchasing schedules, and analyze where your leadership team is wasting time. We’re exploring how manufacturers can move beyond having “one guy using ChatGPT to rewrite emails” to actually deploying AI to transform their operations. ************* Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Interview Highlights From ISO Consultant to AI Integrator Ledge Inc has been a quality and management consulting firm for years, with Adam’s team of 10 industrial engineers providing ISO 9001 and AS 9100 services to over 300 manufacturers. But Adam’s personal interest in AI tools led to something bigger. “I was using it pretty heavily personally, and we were looking for how can we build these tools and build safe tools that we can actually deploy to our customers,” Adam explains. After years of seeing the same problems at manufacturer after manufacturer, he could build AI solutions for those recurring pain points. Now Ledge Inc offers both traditional consulting and AI integration, providing companies with secure platforms that give entire teams access to multiple AI models without the security risks of personal accounts. Real Tools, Real Training, Real Solutions For about $10,000 a year, companies can give 20 people access to secure AI tools across 49 different models. But the platform is only part of the solution. Ledge Inc provides both in-person and online training to help teams actually use these tools effectively. “We’re providing both types of training for folks. A lot of it is just how can I get my team comfortable with it so they can start to use it,” Adam explains. The training focuses on helping people see use cases within their own operations rather than just showing them features. The tools themselves solve real manufacturing problems: Adam’s weld inspection tool came from a beautiful moment of serendipity—of course I had to mention that. When either he or his dad broke his tractor (he’s still not sure which), Adam needed to weld it back together. He bought a $150 welder on Amazon, convinced his wife this was his chance to practice, and went to work on the steel bracket. After welding it back together, he took a photo and asked AI how well he did. It told him to immediately rework the weld and explained exactly what he’d done wrong. “I was like, you know what? My customers could be interested in an (AI) tool like this.” What started as a personal frustration became a business solution that lets shops upload weld photos and procedures for detailed feedback. His PPAP expert tool works similarly. “My goal is first pass on your first article and PPAP documentation. When you submit that to the customer, it passes the first time.” The AI reviews all documents before submission, catching everything from spelling mistakes to missing requirements. Other tools include contract review, material certificate verification, and purchasing planning that optimizes inventory levels and delivery timing. The Security Reality A recent study found that 4% of ChatGPT prompts contained confidential information. Employees are using personal AI accounts, potentially feeding company data into systems that learn from every interaction. Adam’s platform solves this by providing secure AI that doesn’t retain data. “I want to run a query, get an answer and get out. I don’t want it to take that data back to ChatGPT and train its model.” Making People Better, Not Replacing Them Adam’s philosophy is clear: “I’m not trying to eliminate them. I’m trying to make you faster, smarter, better.” That said, Adam and I both agreed that AI tools are threatening jobs. The rookie lawyer who checks hairy documents for abnormalities, the analyst who starts at a finance firm proofreading documents—those are already marginalized. AI is coming for the IT guy who troubleshoots people’s annoying computer issues. I marvel at all the problems I have solved on my PC, smartphone and email that would have tortured me for hours to figure out or wait for help. The Adoption Challenge Adam’s message is straightforward: this technology is spreading faster than anything we’ve seen before. “It took ChatGPT two months [to reach 100 million users]. The internet took 10 years.” But many manufacturers are stuck at the basic level rather than deploying AI strategically across operations. The companies that start experimenting now with proper tools and security will have a significant advantage. “This will hit everybody in the company, everybody from marketing to purchasing to receiving,” Adam explains. “When you look at the investment, your ROI is just through the roof.” Question: What task in your work do you wish you had AI to do for you? To assist you with?

Are you vaccinated against the Virus?  Is your computer system prepared for the inevitable attack? Today’s podcast discusses the scary reality that manufacturers are the number one target of cyber attacks around the globe. Manufacturing companies are at risk for ransomware and intellectual property theft. It’s even possible for hackers to take control of a factory’s machine tools remotely. I interviewed Drew Phillips, senior systems integration engineer at MxD (Manufacturing x Digital), a company that helps US manufacturers secure their facilities from cyber attacks. Scroll down to read more and listen to the podcast. Or listen on your phone with Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite app.     Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://lnkd.in/dB_nzFzt Instagram: https://lnkd.in/dcxjzVyw Twitter: https://lnkd.in/dDyT-c9h Main Points Hacking Methods In 2019, manufacturing was the 10th largest industry targeted by hackers worldwide, but in just three years it has become the number one target. Today it is easier to steal intellectual property than ever before because all of our sensitive information is located on central computers.  Often hackers use ransomware, with which they hold intellectual property hostage in exchange for money.  Even if a manufacturer is not hacked, it can still be harmed if another company in its supply chain is hacked. This makes manufacturing companies vulnerable and attractive targets for hackers. One of the most famous ransomware hacks was the WannaCry hack in 2017, originating in North Korea. It spread to 150 countries around the world, infecting more than 200,000 computers and stopping production at Nissan in England for several days. Hackers can control a shop’s machine tools remotely The most notorious example of a of hack taking control of a machine tool is known as Stuxnet. In 2010, a malicious computer worm, allegedly created by the United States and Israel, attacked Iranian nuclear centrifuges, causing them to tear themselves apart. Many people say this was the first known example of a hack specifically designed to take control of machine tool PLCs.  Drew says that the code for the worm still remains on the dark web. Cyber criminals could employ it or some other hack to take control of CNC machines anywhere in the world. Methods Hackers Employ Often Hackers use phishing attacks, such as getting people to open malicious links in emails, which then trick them into entering passwords. There are a myriad of other ways that hackers employ to steal passwords or entice computer users to accidentally download malicious files that can infect an entire network. Hackers even leave thumb drives containing viruses in parking lots, hoping people will pick them up and plug them into their computers.  Cybersecurity Best Practices Official best practices in cybersecurity is known as NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology. NIST has a cybersecurity framework with five tenants; identify, protect, detect, respond, and recover.  Identifying is essential because you can’t protect what is on a system if you don’t know what is there in the first place.  It’s very difficult to detect a cyber attack, which magnifies its danger. The World Economic Forum’s 2020 global risk report said that the rate of detection of an attack was .05% in the US—only 5 of 10,000 cyber attack cases detected. MxD’s Assistance for Companies  MxD shares best practices that its own facility has implemented. It provides manufacturing companies with a questionnaire so companies can evaluate their cybersecurity standards. It also has a cybersecurity marketplace, in which it advises companies where to get cybersecurity solutions. Drew Phillips says MxD’s mission is to help  manufacturing companies improve and innovate in their operations.  The organization is dedicated to educating manufacturers about their return on investment in cybersecurity because being hacked is not a matter of if, but a matter of when—when cyber criminals find one moment of weakness Check out MxD’s booth at IMTS 2022, or go to their website to learn more. Question: How have you taken steps to defend your company against cyber attacks?

I highly recommend you watch the video version of this podcast. Click on the link to go to the video. I won a few big matches on my high school Tennis team, but I was never awesome. I never won the big tournaments. What killed me was that I always had more fun and played better in practice than in big matches when pressure made my muscles tight. For the last few months, I’ve been fascinated by a discovery a tennis pro made 50 years ago that’s revolutionizing how people perform under pressure. It started when I listened to “The Coach in Your Head,” an episode from Michael Lewis’s “Against the Rules” podcast. Check out the video I made breaking down the whole story on my YouTube channel, I Learned It on a Podcast.   We all experience this. Job interviews, presentations, equipment demonstrations. We “play tight” when stakes are high, performing worse at the very things we’ve trained for. Tim Gallwey figured out why this happens. In 1974, he published The Inner Game of Tennis, decades before today’s coaching boom. Like me, he was skilled but didn’t perform his best when it mattered most. While teaching tennis at a country club during summer break, he had a profound realization. Instead of giving a student technical instructions for hitting topspin, Gallwey stayed quiet and just tossed balls for 3-4 minutes. Suddenly, the guy was hitting perfect topspin shots. His next lesson, he told a complete beginner to shut her eyes and see herself hitting the ball. She executed perfectly, naturally doing everything he would have taught her. His realization was simple. Performance isn’t about more instruction. It’s about eliminating mental interference. This method became known as mind coaching. It helps people notice when thoughts create tension and worry, then redirects focus to what’s actually useful. Michael Lewis’s daughter Dixie, a competitive softball player, worked with a mind coach who transformed her brutal self-talk from “don’t screw up” to “loose and aggressive.” When she focused on that positive phrase, her muscles could work instead of being locked up by tension. I’ve started trying to apply the “loose and aggressive” mindset in my daily life. I think about it in my morning routines, content creation, and business negotiations. Recently, teaching my 3-year-old to throw a frisbee, instead of explaining technique, I demonstrated it to him a few times and said “just watch and do it.” In minutes he was doing it–of course in his own way with two hands, but he was really doing it, probably better than if I’d verbally instructed him Today mind coaches work with firefighters developing mental routines for emergencies, executives learning to compete rather than just manage. Perhaps this week, try to feel where you are playing tight. Maybe you’ll notice you’re so focused on not failing that you can’t access what you actually know. Or, if you’re coaching other people, you might ask what they noticed instead of listing what they did wrong. The big puzzle I find is to not let yourself get tight about trying to be loose. It just creates more of the same problem. Question: Do you perform well under pressure? What is your secret?

“This is how it’s always been done.” Businesses sometimes can do OK with a philosophy like that. Maybe even make good money.  But it sucks being just ok, because you know you could be so much better. Today on the podcast we are joined by Jim Mayer, founder of the Manufacturing Connector and host of the Manufacturing Culture Podcast. Jim is a manufacturing advocate who helps companies break free from the “it’s always been done this way’ mindset.  He specializes in transforming workplaces where the culture is “just OK” into awesome places to work, where employees are engaged, people trust each other and they celebrate successes together. It was a great conversation, he even gave me valuable advice about improving meetings at our company, Graff-Pinkert. ************* Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.     .   View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel. Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Interview Highlights Noah Graff: On your website you mentioned taking “OK” scenarios at manufacturing companies to a new place. Explain that. Jim Mayer: “OK” in the sense that I use it means status quo. The way things have always been done. When I hear people say, “That’s the way things have always been done,” I see it as a sign of room for growth, opportunity, and improvement. I can take what has always been done and provide a solution or a way to become better, become more profitable, become more process-oriented. Noah: I know you don’t believe that a culture for one company is necessarily right for another. But how do you define a “healthy culture” in your surveys and when you’re consulting manufacturing companies? Jim: The idea of organizational culture is that you have a good culture when your employees and your organization have alignment of values. When your company values are X and your employees also value that same thing, that’s when you have alignment. That’s when you have a healthy culture for your organization. It’s individualistic because every employee is going to have their own values. Every organization is going to have their own values based on the values of top-line leadership. That’s why it’s not my job to judge. What I value may be different from what that company values or what the employees value. I’m just making sure they’re aligned. Noah: How has remote work affected business culture and manufacturing culture?  Jim: Typically, what I find with the shops I work with, remote work is not accepted where it could be. Of course, folks on the shop floor can’t be remote, but they can have flexible hours more suited to their lifestyle and work-life balance needs. It all comes down to what that individual is looking for. But remote culture in manufacturing can thrive. It’s just a matter of trust. That’s really the foundation of why it doesn’t work. Leadership in this industry is so conditioned to have eyes on processes and people who are part of the processes. When they aren’t able to have eyes on somebody, the trust just isn’t there that they’re getting their job done. Noah: One thing I’ve wanted to do more at our company, Graff-Pinkert, is have some huddles or meetings. We have never had anything routine. We are moving right now, and we’re going to have the added challenge of having a separate office and warehouse. I’d like to have some meetings to bring people together and be more engaged. Jim: I would say start with a weekly meeting. But really define what that weekly meeting is designed to accomplish ahead of time. “Hey team, we’re going to have a weekly meeting where we talk about this week’s wins, this week’s failures, this week’s lessons learned.” You have to have that defined ahead of time so that people don’t walk into it thinking, “Why are we having this meeting? I have no idea.” I always like to talk about celebrations. What were our successes? What were our opportunities for learning this week? When you take that kind of mindset, it changes the framework of the discussion. But then also, the way that you create a culture that values those people and values that learning and development is asking them, “What were your failures and what did you learn?” What were some of the misses we had this week and what did you learn from them? Companies that generally have healthier cultures don’t view failure as a mistake. They view failure as an opportunity to grow. Questions:  What aspect of your company’s culture are you most proud of? What aspect of your company’s culture would you like to improve? ********* This transcription was aided by claud.ai. to improve readability. For more information about Jim Mayer’s services go the manufacturing connector.

If you had $100,000 to spend on your machine shop, what would you spend it on? When I polled people on LinkedIn, out of 170 responses, 46% said they would buy a new machine, 33% said “robots and automation.” Only seventeen percent said “hire and train people.” Does this mean American shops have basically given up on finding good workers? On today’s show, Lloyd and I are going to discuss why this is happening, what it means for the future of manufacturing, and whether there might be a better way to think about that $100,000 investment. Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.        View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Interview Highlights What the Poll Results Really Mean When only 17% of respondents chose to invest in people over equipment, it reveals how the industry has essentially decided that finding, training, and retaining skilled workers is too difficult compared to buying another machine. But Lloyd argues we might be approaching this decision all wrong. Lloyd’s Contrarian Take While most shop owners automatically think “new machine” or “automation” when they have capital to invest, Lloyd suggests an option that I didn’t think to put in the poll: sales and marketing. “People tend to use the answers that you propose for them,” Lloyd explains. “But I would like to propose another answer… sales and advertising and an attempt to get new clients or to expand the clients that you have.” In an industry that’s notoriously bad at marketing itself, Lloyd suggests that $100,000 invested in finding new customers might generate more long-term value than any piece of equipment. I argue that Gen Z buyers want videos and social media advertising rather than traditional salespeople. But Lloyd counters with something even more old-school: actual in-person visits to potential clients or existing customers. While phone calls might not work with younger buyers, Lloyd believes face-to-face relationship building could be the most neglected and potentially most valuable investment a shop could make. Military Contracts Driving Change We discuss how military contracts are forcing equipment decisions beyond simple cost considerations. New security requirements and quality standards mean some work simply can’t be done on older equipment anymore, regardless of the shop’s preferences. But getting military work isn’t just about having the right equipment or submitting the lowest bid. Lloyd argues that political connections might be the key to landing big contracts for ammunition and defense work. “You know people. You contribute to people’s campaigns,” he explains. It’s about having a good network, knowing somebody who knows somebody, and being willing to go through the bureaucratic process to get certified. This reality represents more than just equipment upgrades. It’s about understanding that success in defense manufacturing often depends as much on relationships and political connections as it does on machining capabilities. Tariffs and Uncertainty Throughout our conversation, one theme keeps emerging: uncertainty. Whether it’s tariffs on raw materials, changing military requirements, or the ongoing challenge of finding skilled workers, manufacturers are making capital decisions in an environment where the rules seem to change weekly. Lloyd points out that there’s actually been less indecision lately now that some things have been somewhat solidified, even with the caveat that they could change again. This temporary clarity, however fragile, has helped our business pick up over the last month and a half. But the tariffs themselves might be doing more damage to American manufacturers than to China. Lloyd argues that China, as the low-cost producer of steel in the world, can absorb tariffs without too much pain. Meanwhile, American shops face significant cost increases on raw materials like steel and aluminum, most of which is imported. The result? Tariffs may be hurting the very manufacturers they’re supposed to help. The underlying volatility in trade policy remains, and many companies are still paralyzed by the constant flux, which may be the biggest threat to growth of all. Questions: What would YOU spend $100K on in your shop? Are you investing more in equipment or people this year?

During my career as a used machinery dealer, I’ve met many successful companies in the machining business who have no social media presence and don’t even have a website. Surprisingly they use some of the most advanced equipment and have more customers than they need.  Today we’re pulling out a favorite podcast episode about a company just like that. I interviewed Jay Sauder, owner of Sauder Machine in Plymouth, Ohio. Sauder makes a variety of precision components such as casings for mechanical pocket watches and wheel cylinders for horse drawn buggies driven by Amish people. Sauder Machine has no sales team nor a social media presence, yet it has a diversified, profitable customer base that continues to grow through great networking. Jay Sauder told me about how doing great work and establishing great relationships with customers has been the fuel to keep his business rapidly growing year after year. Listen with Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts, or your podcast favorite app. Main Points Jay talks about the origin of Sauder Machine. His dad started the business with his uncle in 1982 in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Jay is the fourth generation of machine shop owners in his family. In 2009 he started at the business and eventually took over administrative duties from his dad, who prefers to be working on machines to pushing pencils. Jay says when he started, the business had a lot of good customers, but his dad had not been charging some of them enough for various jobs to be profitable. (3:00) Jay talks about his Mennonite background and how that has brought him Amish clientele. He grew up as Old Order Mennonite, a religious group with many common customs and origins as the Amish. He started driving a horse and buggy when he was 15 years old (he has only been driving a car for six years). Jay says the communities vary, but on the whole, Amish people are more conservative than Mennonites. Jay says he grew up with electricity and telephones in his house, while Amish people usually don’t have those amenities. Mennonites don’t have to have beards and don’t have to dress quite as conservatively as Amish. (5:00) Jay says the commonalities and connections between Mennonite and Amish communities have brought Sauder Machine some important customers. Sauder Machine designed a hydraulic brake system for Amish and Mennonite carriages. The carriages already had brakes, but they were using cast iron rear cylinders imported from China, which were modeled after those on a 1941 light-duty Ford truck. Sauder’s wheel cylinders are made of anodized aluminum and are water resistant. The company also makes master cylinders. Since Sauder started making the wheel cylinders in 2012, it has produced 140,000 of them, which the company makes on an OKK CNC 500mm pallet horizontal mill. (7:45) Jay says his company uses no advertising, sales team, manufacturer’s rep, or social media. The company has a single page website that Jay says has brought him a few RFQs in the past. He says his business connections and customer good will are his key getting new business. (10:20) Jay talks about a casing for a mechanical pocket watch he produces. Amish people do not wear wrist watches, and some require the watches to be mechanical rather than battery operated. An Amish watch producer in Wisconsin had been been importing his casings from China, but he was looking for a supplier in the United States. He spoke with an Amish owned machine shop in Ohio that Sauder made parts for, and they referred him to Sauder. Sauder sent him a quote and the watchmaker immediately ordered 5,000 pieces, which Jay says he will make on the company’s INDEX C65 lathe. (11:00) Jay talks about a 2% discount he gives every customer if they pay within 10 days. He says 90% of his customers take this discount, everyone from the Amish watchmaker, to steel producers and Parker Hannifin. (15:00) Jay says the same principles that have grown his business within the Amish community have helped him in other spheres. He says that a steel company customer in Ohio refers new clients to Sauder Machine. Jay says he keeps the steel company as a middleman, rather than working with those new clients directly. This reinforces their cooperative relationship. (16:00) Noah asks Jay, what advice he would give a new company who does not have an existing network of customers to bring it referrals. Jay admits that he does not have experience in this scenario, but he suggests to try a service like manufacturing.com to source work, which hopefully would start a network of more customers. (18:30) Jay says since he took over the business operations of Sauder, he has had to go to longtime customers and dramatically raise prices because the company was losing money on various jobs. He says some of the customers left, but within a year they came back and didn’t even try to negotiate. He says if you do parts right the first time, customers are not going to want to go elseware. (20:30) Jay talks about the negotiation process with customers. Noah asks him what he would do in a hypothetical scenario where customer came to him with target a price of $2.00 per part, while he knew that Sauder could actually produce the part for $1.00. Jay says his first instinct is to offer to make the part for $1.75. This way Sauder makes some decent money, and the customer feels good as well. He says however, that if later he is able to improve his process internally to make the part cheaper, the price of the part to the customer will often stay the same. Sometimes he might lower the price to strengthen a relationship with a customer or stave off competition. (24:20) Jay talks about his constant reinvestment in his business. He always is concerned with upgrading equipment and taking care of employees. He says taking the right steps to do good work is one of the most important ways to keep customers and find new ones. If people know they can buy parts from his company and there won’t be problems they will continue to come back and bring him new customers. (27:20) Jay says he likes to buy equipment (always used) if he sees fantastic opportunities—he does not need to have work for it yet. He says the most money he has ever paid for a machine was $140,000 for a Traub he recently bought, which might have cost 6 or 7 times that price new. He says he is considering buying his first new machine, a Mazak Multiplex, for a Parker Hannifin job. To make a part come of the machine complete he needs a machining center that can do probing, induction hardening, and grinding. He says he is not afraid about losing the job because he could repurpose the machine. He also says that large companies often make decisions slowly. He says a part Sauder makes for Parker took two years from the time it made a sample part until being approved for production. Then it took another year to make one change on a print. (29:40) Noah asks Jay to tell him something he learned last week. Jay says he learned he can draw out a solid piece of steel rod cheaper than the price of tubing by using an Iscar SUMOCHAM drill. He says the material cost is about $.60 cheaper. Jay says his philosophy is “live and learn, crash and burn. If the tool doesn’t crash you’re not pushing it hard enough.” (32:45) Question: Is word of mouth the best way to find new work?  

Sometimes great conversations just happen. But what I’ve learned after 14 years selling used machines, and almost 250 podcast interviews, is that most conversations, even great ones, could be guided to be even better. Recently, I heard a podcast with journalist Polina Pompliano that reinforced techniques I’ve been using in business and my own journalism for years. It inspired a new episode from my YouTube show I Learned It on a Podcast, where I break down the best insights I find while listening to way too many podcasts on my commute. Think of it as my attempt to save you time by highlighting the episodes that actually teach you something useful. (Blog continues below video) Listen on your favorite podcast app using pod.link.        View the podcast at the bottom of this post or on our YouTube Channel Follow us on Social and never miss an update! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/swarfcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/swarfcast/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/todays-machining-world Twitter: https://twitter.com/tmwswarfblog ************* Link to Graff-Pinkert’s Acquisitions and Sales promotion! ************* Show Highlights Strategic Interrupting “Wait… you saw the Ayatollah speak in Iran?” I had to stop my guest Donato Notaro mid-sentence during a recent Swarfcast interview. He’d casually mentioned seeing Ayatollah Khomeini during a machine installation job in Iran in the ’80s—like it was just another day at the office. The interruption was important because it made sure the conversation directed to the interesting, surprising place that materialized. Great interviewers are editors in real time. They know when to stop someone and redirect the conversation toward what’s actually valuable. In business, your customers and suppliers often bury the lead. They’ll mention the real issue—cash flow problems, equipment failures, family dynamics—as an aside before launching into their rehearsed pitch. You have to stop them. The key is being polite about it. I’ll say, “Sorry, I hope you don’t mind if I interrupt you right here.” Then steer the conversation where it needs to go. Pre-Interviewing When I started Swarfcast in 2018, I thought pre-interviews would kill spontaneity, but it turns out  they leave room for plenty of spontaneity, just with the conversation focused on the most interesting, significant stuff. My interviewees have already told me the basic background—where they were born, that they like to play tennis, etc. But I learn the important things by asking them what they can teach our listeners. Before a business meeting, I look people up on LinkedIn to see what their position is at their company. It’s important to know if they are an owner or executive or a shop manager. I study their website to see what machines they have or what they make, so I can bring up other opportunities for machinery or M&A. Mirroring I’ve been using this conversation technique in negotiations for years, after learning it in Chris Voss’s best seller Never Split the Difference. When someone says something interesting, you repeat their last few words back to them. When people hear you repeat their words, they feel heard. They know they’ve been heard because you’ve recited what they said back to them. When people feel heard they feel in control, and they feel relaxed. This makes them open up to you, which is essential for a great negotiation or interview. You have the ability to control an interview or a conversation. It’s up to you to say the things to guide it where you want it to go. Watch the full video to see these techniques in action on my YouTube channel.