Discover the emerging DevRel Foundation, designed to tackle the challenges of Developer Relations. The conversation highlights its goal to define roles and measure impact while promoting inclusivity. Community engagement is key, allowing everyone from managers to members to voice their insights. The foundation stands out within the Linux Foundation, offering a nonpartisan platform for collaboration and resource sharing. With mixed community reactions, the importance of diverse perspectives in shaping governance discussions is underscored.

The podcast dives into the chaotic world of hiring for Developer Relations roles. It reveals the confusing processes, unrealistic expectations from recruiters, and the emotional toll on candidates. The discussion uncovers the disconnect between HR practices and the actual skills needed, along with common misconceptions about the role. Listeners will find insights into the challenges facing applicants and the chaotic nature of job applications filled with buzzwords. Overall, it's a candid look at the urgent need for reform in the tech hiring landscape.

Recently, the topic of DevRel maturity sparked a conversation: What qualities define a mature community and a seasoned team? Join PJ, Jason, Mary, and Wesley as they share their insights on past experiences, current trends shaping the field, and key indicators to monitor as you strive to build a thriving, successful community. Topics Discussed: Introduction to the Concept of Maturity in DevRel and Community Programs: Mary Thengvall introduces the topic of maturity in community programs, DevRel teams, and broader community growth, asking the co-hosts for their views on what it means for a program or team to be “mature.” The discussion explores maturity from different perspectives: internal community management, external community engagement, and the use of data in measuring maturity. The Definition of Maturity: PJ Haggerty argues that the term “mature” is often used ambiguously, similar to how the word "enterprise" is applied. He suggests that DevRel programs may be mistakenly seen as mature just by having a larger team, but he disagrees with this simplistic view. Wesley Faulkner offers multiple angles for assessing maturity: Internal maturity: Does the company have seasoned community managers, strong goals, clear expectations, and good internal collaboration across departments? External maturity: Does the community have a consistent base of returning members, active engagement, and is it large enough to support initiatives like ambassador programs or moderator roles? Scalability: A mature community allows for growth, enabling more opportunities for collaboration, feedback, and scaling programs effectively. Maturity in the Context of Company History: Mary Thengvall reflects on the significant data her company, Kamunda, has accumulated since 2013. She points out that while having 11 years of data seems like a huge advantage, it only becomes truly valuable if it is actionable. She emphasizes that being able to use data to make decisions is a key sign of a mature program. Jason Hand stresses that merely collecting data without acting on it is a waste, and processes need to be built around data to drive positive outcomes. He highlights that having a clear vision and goals is integral to creating a mature team and community. Challenges in Community Maturity: PJ Haggerty contrasts the maturity of external communities. He shares his experience with the Ruby and Rails community, which was once immature but matured as the open-source community grew. The challenge is that a community’s maturity cannot exist in isolation — it depends on the external community's growth alongside the internal team’s development. The maturity of community data also plays a critical role. Mary Thengvall questions whether it is possible to continue calling a community mature if much of its active base has shifted or churned due to evolving products or other factors. Evaluating and Using Data: The episode explores the effectiveness of metrics used to evaluate community programs. PJ Haggerty criticizes Net Promoter Score (NPS) as outdated and unreliable, especially in the current context where personal interactions (such as with a developer advocate) might skew the score. Wesley Faulkner discusses how metrics can be “Uberfied,” meaning that overly simplistic metrics like star ratings may not accurately reflect the quality of engagement within a community. Mary Thengvall discusses the importance of understanding the purpose behind collecting metrics. Are metrics gathered for the sake of collection, or do they inform decisions about program improvements? The Evolution of Community Programs: Jason Hand emphasizes that community maturity is a moving target. Teams and priorities evolve, and practices that were considered best practices a few years ago may no longer hold true. Maturity is not a one-time achievement but a continuous process of adaptation. Mary Thengvall adds that there’s a difference between having a mature program that runs smoothly with minimal manual effort and the early-stage iterative phase that is often more experimental and adaptable. Impact of External Growth and Organizational Expectations: Jason Hand asks whether the maturity of a community is driven by organizational expectations or if a mature community is the result of consistent iteration and learning over time. Mary Thengvall shares that her own career trajectory is impacted by the maturity of her team and program. She reflects on the challenge of finding new ways to innovate when things feel “settled” and running smoothly, highlighting the balance between growth and stability. Key Takeaways: Maturity in DevRel and community programs is a multi-faceted concept involving internal team development, external community engagement, and the use of data to inform decisions. A mature community program requires both internal synergy within the company and active, engaged community members outside the organization. Data is crucial for maturity, but it must be actionable. Collecting metrics without using them for decision-making does not lead to growth. Maturity is an ongoing process, and what was once considered mature can quickly become outdated. Continuous iteration and adapting to new challenges is key. The maturity of external communities and their relationship with the internal team play a major role in the overall success and scalability of community programs. Action Items: Community Managers: Evaluate the maturity of your program from internal and external perspectives. Are you actively engaging your community? Are internal stakeholders aligned with the value of community? DevRel Teams: Focus on making your community scalable by creating processes that support growth and enable external members to contribute meaningfully. Organizations: Use data-driven decision-making but ensure that the data you collect is relevant and leads to actionable outcomes. Revisit your metrics and evaluate whether they are still valid and useful. Leaders in DevRel: Consider how community maturity affects the growth of your program. Are you in the iterative stage, or are you moving toward a more stable, self-sustaining model? Key Words and Themes: Community Maturity Data and Metrics External Community Engagement Internal Team Collaboration Mature DevRel Program Scalability Iterative vs. Mature Programs Actionable Data Continuous Evolution Best Practices Net Promoter Score (NPS) Criticism Uberfication of Metrics Transcript [00:00:13] Mary Thengvall: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Community Pulse. I'm Mary Thengvall, and I brought up this topic to the team recently as something that I've been curious about and thinking a little bit more about. [00:00:26] Mary Thengvall: And I'd love to get everybody's opinion on it. So the idea of the maturity of community programs or the maturity of. A community or the maturity of a team and trying to figure out what actually is that definition of mature in those different examples? What makes a program mature? What makes a team mature? [00:00:50] Mary Thengvall: What can be done as a result of having a more mature program or DevRel team? And I'd love to get everybody's opinions on it. [00:01:00] [00:01:00] PJ Haggerty: I think if I could weigh in for a second, I think that one of the interesting things here is the word you mentioned, the word mature. Like 17 times which is good, but I also feel like maturity is in some ways similar to when we, when tech companies use the word enterprise, what does that mean? [00:01:15] PJ Haggerty: It can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And a lot of, in a lot of cases, I think that maturity, when we look at like a DevRel team is. skewed. [00:01:27] PJ Haggerty: I don't think that's the same metric as. I've never seen a DevRel team that says, okay, so we have junior DevRel and mid level DevRel, senior DevRel, product managers, and communication is managed by this other part of the team. I think most people are basically saying a DevRel program is mature, if There's more than one person. [00:01:49] Mary Thengvall: Really? [00:01:49] PJ Haggerty: I think external people who view DevRel say there's more than one person. Clearly we have a mature DevRel program. I disagree with that, but I think it's a thing. [00:02:00] [00:02:00] Wesley Faulkner: In terms of community and a mature community, I think of it in multiple facets and you can pick which one. [00:02:06] Wesley Faulkner: Resonates with your initial thought, Mary, is that there's a maturity in terms of when you're creating a community, there's a lot of, let's figure this out, like how we're going to run this, let's build up the playbooks. Let's build in the process, let's build in the connections internally. [00:02:21] Wesley Faulkner: Oh, a base of maturity. Another way of looking at it is from the people who are involved internally in community. Do you have a seasoned community manager? Do you have strong enough goals? And clear expectations. Do you have a good relationship with the other departments to make sure that the collaboration there, that everyone sees the investment in community and the value of community where basically you have an internal synergy where people understand community is part of the process [00:02:54] Wesley Faulkner: so where the community in a company grows to the point where it's the whole [00:03:00] company understands. That we are a community. And this is important to us. [00:03:04] Mary Thengvall: And then [00:03:04] Wesley Faulkner: The third option for the community when I think about it is the external view of the community. Do you have members who keep coming back? Do you have people who are participatory in either surveys or type of feedback sessions in which they are contributing not only back to the company, but they have a That are horizontal to other members of the community where they feel like that relationship has been built up. [00:03:32] Wesley Faulkner: Another way that this can show on the external side is that it is large enough that you're able to do an ambassador program? You're able to have people be moderators. You're tearing the community itself where there's different types of facets or different types of verticals where the community can have different shapes and sizes depending on the size of it. [00:03:51] Wesley Faulkner: So those are the three different ways that when you say maturity that popped in my head. [00:03:56] Mary Thengvall: Part of the interesting thing [00:04:00] from my perspective with the company that I'm at, which is Kamunda is. From a just pure length of time perspective, right? Like we have data about our community back to 2013, which is a lot. [00:04:19] Mary Thengvall: And so that's part of it is, as we're starting to look at this data and try and evaluate, what do we do next and how do we make decisions based on that? If we're asking other companies about the type of data that they have and the type of information that they have, the fact that we have 11 years of data, most other companies are going you have way more data than we do. [00:04:39] Mary Thengvall: You have way more information than we do. Like you're so far ahead of the game, but part of that is simply when we started. Mature community. [00:04:50] Jason Hand: Are you doing anything with that data? [00:04:53] Mary Thengvall: Trying to [00:04:54] Jason Hand: That's an excellent question, Jason. [00:04:55] Jason Hand: To me that's what makes them a team mature is if you're not doing anything that's [00:05:00] actionable and you don't have a plan to take the things that you learned or the things that you've collected or whatever, [00:05:06] Mary Thengvall: and [00:05:07] Jason Hand: Build some process around that and do something positive with it. [00:05:11] Jason Hand: Then you're wasting that. And you're also not really a leader in the space of what, I hate using the term best practices, but if you're not I feel this all the time are, am I following my advice all the time? No, but I'm doing my best and it's not always up to one person either on how things come together. [00:05:28] Jason Hand: To me, the first thing to jump out is in terms of a mature team, like communities, probably something different, mature, like other words out there. But I'm starting to realize like a data dog, like building some process around stuff, having some good goals, making sure we have a clear vision and mission statement, like all these things help to me create this this maturity thing, [00:05:53] Wesley Faulkner: I think that was option one, right? [00:05:55] PJ Haggerty: Yeah. I think it's interesting that Mary brings up 13 years of data. [00:06:00] Or I shouldn't say weak. I don't work at Komuna. I work at IBM, where we literally have 100 years of data and we do nothing with it. And I think that it'd be more accurate to say you have a 100 or you have 13 years of actionable information based on the data you've collected. [00:06:16] PJ Haggerty: There's always been my argument and anyone who's seen me speak at DevOpsDays. There's a big difference between data and information. You can have a lot of data and no information. And that's, because, at international business machines, we concern ourselves with the enterprise and the client, but the client isn't always the community. [00:06:35] PJ Haggerty: And the mature community model would. But even given the amount of time that we've had to collect data and look at it and evaluate it, there are still because and maybe this is part of the just large nature of a huge international conglomerate. [00:06:51] PJ Haggerty: Community interaction that the company is very good at. And there are other parts of the company that have no idea who the community is or how to talk to them. And [00:07:00] because it's so large, those two places just don't talk to each other. That's option two. Yes. But it's like the bad version of option two. [00:07:08] Jason Hand: Not everything also, as far as data goes, is going to be actionable. Like you can't assume that all that data going back to 2013 is it is really even valuable because time is, this there's pre COVID and post COVID there obviously, but also I just read about the dead internet theory the other day or watched a video on it and the internet in 2016, which I don't disagree with there's a time where things were different in terms of what we were collecting and what we thought was valuable. [00:07:37] Mary Thengvall: Yeah. [00:07:37] Jason Hand: Today, most of us would say, page views and clicks and all that stuff. The best we had at the time. And that's what we looked at the most, but that having that data from some, from several years back might not be that value. [00:07:47] PJ Haggerty: This goes back to a lot of the metrics conversations we have as well, though. [00:07:50] PJ Haggerty: Like I think that 10, 15 years ago at any tech company, I would think that net promoter score was a totally valid way to look at your end users and figure out whether you were doing well. [00:08:00] Nowadays, it's a huge waste. It's a huge waste. That is not a way to get a grip on your community or your end users or people that are using the, that promoter score is just, in the same way that, if this was 1998, I would say, yes, if you were in the upper right magic quadrant of a Gardner square, way to go, you're the best. [00:08:17] PJ Haggerty: It's not 1998, it's 2024. And with 2025 rapidly approaching, you need to like everyone who complains about the metrics of determining whether a DevRel program is good or a community is mature. And meanwhile, these other people are using you know 40 year outdated metrics to say. But we're doing good in the industry. [00:08:36] Wesley Faulkner: Used to believe in the net performance score too, in terms of community. But I think that someone told me this and coined it the uberfication of metrics for star rating. I like that. Like everyone gets five stars, no matter how bad your driver is. And this or they get one star, there's nothing in between. [00:08:54] PJ Haggerty: If they have a personal interaction with the company it's the same as like I give every uber driver five stars [00:09:00] because I interact with that person. If you're an end user and you have a personal relationship with a salesperson or a developer advocate or a market, someone, you have said, you're going to be like I thought I'd give them the best net promoter score I possibly can. [00:09:12] Mary Thengvall: Yeah. [00:09:12] PJ Haggerty: Because I don't want to hurt so much, but that's exactly what invalidates the metric. It's just not valuable anymore. [00:09:18] Mary Thengvall: I think it goes back to, and this is it's metrics related, but I think it's directly related to maturity as well. The idea of. Are you collecting metrics for metrics sake? [00:09:30] Mary Thengvall: Are you actually collecting metrics to, Jason, your point? Are you doing anything with them? What are we doing with that data? Why are we collecting this in the first place? How are we using it to advance the programs or things like that? And part of it from my standpoint too, we have a new version of the product. [00:09:49] Mary Thengvall: That's very specifically called a new version because it does the same things, but it's a different product. And so as we're looking [00:10:00] at. Are people sticking around or people churning because they want to be on the old version of the product, but we're at the end of life in that, like, how does that work? [00:10:06] Mary Thengvall: What does that look like? Can we still call our community mature? If most of those people who have been around for that long are potentially no longer involved in the community, right? Does that change the level of maturity of the community, [00:10:21] Mary Thengvall: maturity of the community programs. And that's where I think those two things might be separate. Because the level of maturity of the team could be 10 years on the team. I'm lucky enough to have a number of people who have been with the company and on my team for three years or longer at this point, that's practically unheard of in DevRel, let alone tech, but that's a very different thing than how mature is our community, which is a very different thing than how mature is the data that we're working with and what are we doing with that data and how does it impact our [00:11:00] programs and everything else? [00:11:02] Wesley Faulkner: Option three. [00:11:06] PJ Haggerty: Wesley is just going to underscore that he was right. And Wesley, I admit 100%. All right. Yes. And one question, one more question they have about what it takes to make a mature community program is what about the external community. So in here, I'll use the example of, back in the day when I was working at Engine Yard, the Ruby and Rails community was still In comparison to other source and language, other open source and language communities. [00:11:33] PJ Haggerty: It was still immature. People were not building massive products in that language just yet when I first joined that team. So the external community was actually fairly immature. Which meant that we could only mature as a community team so far. And back then there were no metrics, there were no guardrails, there was no rules. [00:11:55] PJ Haggerty: We were just making it up as we went along. But because of that, like we [00:12:00] felt like at the end of that experiment, like around 2014, 2015, we had matured quite a bit. We had built something that was rerun, but we had. a playbook that you could follow. This was something that made the parts interchangeable, which unfortunately led to them changing our parts. [00:12:16] PJ Haggerty: Nonetheless, it was something that you could do, there was a pattern. And I think that's something that only came because of the maturity of the external community growing along with our internal community. And I think that's an important factor when we talk about, is a community program mature? [00:12:33] PJ Haggerty: Is the external community of users or developers or whatever, are they also mature? Is it a matter where the only people who are really making up the community right now are those like, super cutting bleeding edge technologists who are going to adopt it, or is it a matter of. [00:12:50] PJ Haggerty: Jason, you asked, why is it good to be mature? That's not a question I've ever had to answer. [00:13:48] Wesley Faulkner: This is very timely. So yesterday I spoke at CMX Global. And my topic was about the governance of a community. So making sure that you involve the community [00:14:00] and your decisions and your planning, and also giving out some of responsibilities like moderation or something like that. [00:14:09] Wesley Faulkner: So I was thinking about this and how you couldn't do that without a mature community and what it does give you is scale gives you options. It gives you more that you can work with in several different dimensions. [00:14:25] Wesley Faulkner: So whether you use it for product feedback, whether you use it for marketing outreach, whether you use it for like user groups, where you're going to meet in different cities, physically, without maturity, you don't get scale. You don't enable some of these things that larger companies, larger. [00:14:47] Wesley Faulkner: Organizations or even more established organizations are able to do. So it does unlock like a new layer and new skillset. If you are able to get to the [00:15:00] place where you can build that maturity on all those different dimensions. [00:15:03] Jason Hand: Yeah, I love that. And the reason why I even thought that is because going back to when Mary was opening things up this has been something that's been spinning on your mind for a little bit. [00:15:16] Jason Hand: And I'm just curious, like what's. Motivating that what's driving that, is there another part of the business that has expectations for something you're involved in to be quite mature. And then just to see the other side of that coin. Sometimes I feel like being new to a situation and maybe not being all that mature means I'm not stuck in some old patterns and I'm open to new ways of doing things. [00:15:42] Jason Hand: So I'm just curious, what's driving this and is there actually something uniquely about that team program, whatever that the business is after you know what I mean? [00:15:54] Mary Thengvall: No, that's a great question. [00:15:55] Jason Hand: Not exploitation of customers. [00:15:57] Mary Thengvall: No. And it's, I think part of it is [00:16:00] just. I've been thinking, is there a point at which we can go, this program is mature and like that phased iteration of, okay, we're just launching it and let's see how it goes for the next six months and get the baselines. And then great, let's iterate on it. [00:16:14] Mary Thengvall: Is there a point that you get to where? Some of those programs can just run easily without a lot of overhead, without a lot of work, without a lot of manual intervention, right? Is there a point where you might need a senior community manager to get the program off the ground, but then you could have An intern who does the, manual follow ups and manual approvals and things like that. [00:16:43] Mary Thengvall: Is that a sign of maturity? But to your point, I think there's some of the benefit of being quote unquote, immature is that ability to iterate quickly. Whereas once you have a fully mature [00:17:00] program that's running really well, if we're going to make any significant changes, that's, it's a lot more difficult, right? [00:17:08] Mary Thengvall: Because it's not just, Oh, Hey, iterate on this one little thing. Try this out, tell people we're trying this out and then move forward with it. It's, Oh, okay. If we're going to change this, then that process that it feeds into and these things that it feeds into, and this vendor that we use to handle this side of things for the program needs to change and all of these other things, right? [00:17:26] Mary Thengvall: There's a lot more built into it. There's a lot more at stake. But yeah it's interesting. I think on a personal level. Part of the reason I'm interested in this topic is because this is the first time that I have ever been at a single company and in a single role for this amount of time. [00:17:47] Mary Thengvall: Like I'll be there five years in December and I've been at other companies for a long time, but always switching roles within the company. But like I started as [00:18:00] director of developer relations, I'm still director of developer relations and I'm okay with that. [00:18:04] Mary Thengvall: And so some of it is also like my considering my own career trajectory and what's changed and what's different. And the team is very different than it was when I started. The program is different than it was when I started. Where does that leave? Me, what are my day to day responsibilities if we're not changing and iterating on things? [00:18:26] Mary Thengvall: And I don't think that's a bad thing, but it's just, it's a very different perspective for me to have from always running, always working long days, always launching big programs, always launching new things. That's a personal adjustment. [00:18:43] PJ Haggerty: But I'm curious, because when we talk about cause I feel like in some ways, like Jason, what you're talking about is like, what should our goal be? [00:18:48] PJ Haggerty: Maturity share metrics are focused on maturity. And I think that a lot of places never get out of that. Iterative part. And the reason why they don't [00:19:00] is partially because they go through these iterations of the team. So you have, you have, okay. So I bring in PJ and he works, he contracts with us through DevRelate for a year. [00:19:11] PJ Haggerty: Great. Then, somewhere towards the end of the year, he brings in a permanent, developer advocate. Great. Cool. And then they actually start to reform things and reshift them. Oh, and then our understanding of how DevRel works. Oh, and then there's just a pandemic in the middle of that. [00:19:23] Mary Thengvall: Company [00:19:24] PJ Haggerty: and it almost makes it impossible for any company to have a community program. I feel like one of the benefits that you have at Kamunda, Mary, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is their dedication to building a community program from the top down. [00:19:39] Mary Thengvall: And [00:19:39] PJ Haggerty: I don't think every company has that. I think a lot of departments have that, or a lot of groups have that, but a lot of companies do not have that. [00:19:47] Mary Thengvall: Yeah. [00:19:48] PJ Haggerty: And I think that's why it's difficult to find a similar situation to yours. [00:19:52] Wesley Faulkner: Another, [00:19:54] Jason Hand: So I've been, on a few different teams now and Devereux related teams of various maturity, I think really it's [00:20:00] more that it's a moving target of course it's a spectrum in terms of how you measure How mature a team is. [00:20:07] Jason Hand: But I feel like. Teams change in terms of the people that make up those teams and the priorities of the org that you're in. Some companies might have a whole quarter where they're just, okay. Ours are really focused on one very specific thing that really don't reflect the team as a whole, but this is what the company needed to focus on right now. [00:20:30] Jason Hand: And we're all coming together to make that work. Everything's just a freaking moving target and to come up with that [00:20:36] PJ Haggerty: should be the standard DevRel tattoo. [00:20:37] Jason Hand: I don't want maturity. [00:20:38] Wesley Faulkner: I will need the pins. [00:20:39] Jason Hand: Hey, Oh. I don't think maturity is a target and you get there and then you're done. And like magically doors open up and all these things that Wesley's talking about are totally true, but I feel like what may have seemed mature. [00:20:53] Jason Hand: A couple of years ago, quote, best practices just aren't, they aren't anymore and that's, things are [00:21:00] just different. So we're starting off with a new, Blank slate pretty frequently. And that's where, I don't know, that's where we get, I think, mixed up on what's important. [00:21:11] Jason Hand: To measure and what's important to take action on with the measurement. [00:21:16] Mary Thengvall: Thanks for sharing with everybody. Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes and follow us on Spotify, or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we’re on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village. Photo by Suzanne D. Williams on Unsplash.

Discover how COVID-19 has reshaped community events, leading to budget constraints and burnout among organizers. The conversation dives into the evolution of conferences, arguing for a shift back to intimate gatherings focused on genuine connections. It highlights the challenges faced in engaging developers and the need for accessible information. As society changes, so must community events, prioritizing meaningful interactions over extravagant presentations. Emphasis is placed on quality content and innovative formats like unconferences for effective knowledge sharing.

Over the past few years, we’ve seen conferences ebb and flow. Some community-run conferences have evolved into new things, new ones have sprouted up while other annual favorites have sadly gone extinct. What goes into a community-led conference? How does someone get involved? Let’s take a look! 1. The Role of Community Conferences in DevRel: Jason Hand introduces the topic, highlighting the evolution of community conferences over the years. While some conferences have grown, others have disappeared, leaving the question of what sustains such events. Wesley Faulkner discusses the importance of understanding the origins and logistics behind community conferences, including the passion and effort required to make them happen. 2. Guests’ Journeys into Organizing Community Events: Matty Stratton: Started organizing DevOpsDays Chicago after realizing the need for a local event in his area. His motivation was to be involved in something he cared about by taking the lead in creating it. Shared how his experience organizing swing dance events shaped his community involvement philosophy: organizing allows him to stay engaged and create meaningful connections. Mo McElaney: Entered tech after a career switch during the 2009 recession. She started organizing events through a nonprofit teaching women to code, which opened doors to organizing Ruby conferences and others. Her lack of experience in tech initially became a motivator for organizing conferences, as it allowed her to connect with experts and learn from them. 3. Why Organizers Keep Coming Back: Mo McElaney: Community conferences create meaningful connections and friendships. They are also a way to spot industry trends by seeing what topics speakers submit for presentations. Matty Stratton: Highlighted the emotional rewards of helping others and witnessing life-changing moments for attendees, such as finding jobs or negotiating better salaries through transparent discussions at events like DevOpsDays. Shared the struggles of stepping back from organizing long-running events due to the personal attachment and friendships developed over the years. 4. Impact of COVID-19 on Community Conferences: Matty Stratton and Mo McElaney agree that COVID-19 significantly disrupted the conference landscape: Many community conferences either downsized, paused, or failed to recover due to funding challenges. The corporate sponsorship landscape has shifted, prioritizing events with high ROI and attendee numbers over smaller, more impactful community-led events. Wesley Faulkner observes that increased workloads and layoffs post-COVID have further limited individuals’ capacity to attend or organize events. 5. Challenges in Organizing Community Conferences: Funding: Conferences often struggle to secure sponsorships, especially in today’s economic climate. Corporate funding focuses on large-scale events, leaving smaller, localized conferences underfunded. Volunteer Management: Organizers face difficulties when volunteers fail to deliver on their commitments. Unlike employees, volunteers can’t be held accountable in the same way. Mentoring and transitioning leadership roles is often overlooked, leading to burnout or gaps when organizers step away. Changing Needs and Expectations: Conferences that fail to adapt post-COVID may struggle to thrive. The shift towards virtual and hybrid formats requires innovation to stay relevant. 6. Refactoring the Community Conference Model: Matty Stratton and Jason Hand propose the need for reimagining how conferences operate: Smaller, localized events can reduce costs and environmental impact while fostering deeper connections. Events like outdoor retreats (e.g., DevOpsDays Rockies incorporating the natural setting of Colorado) demonstrate creative ways to bring people together. Mo McElaney emphasizes the importance of paying speakers and organizers for their work, advocating for a more sustainable model that values the labor involved in organizing community events. Key Takeaways: Community Conferences Have Evolved: Post-COVID, conferences face new challenges, including funding limitations, organizer burnout, and changing attendee expectations. The importance of maintaining the participatory, community-driven spirit remains central to their success. Innovative Models Are Needed: Smaller, more targeted events or creative formats like retreats could address the current barriers to large-scale conferences. Organizers need to adapt to funding realities by prioritizing impactful, cost-effective event models. Sustainability and Support Are Crucial: Paying organizers and speakers is essential to sustaining long-term involvement in community conference planning. Mentorship and succession planning are critical to ensuring the continuity of events and avoiding burnout. Advice for Aspiring Conference Organizers: Clarify Your Capacity: Be upfront about your time, skills, and communication preferences to set realistic expectations for yourself and the organizing team. Understand the Commitment: Ask detailed questions about the role’s expectations and assess whether it aligns with your availability. Know Your Motivation: Reflect on why you want to organize events. Your passion for the community will help you persevere during challenging moments. Closing Thoughts: Community conferences are evolving but remain a vital part of the DevRel ecosystem. Collaboration, innovation, and sustainability will ensure these events continue to thrive in the changing landscape. Final Quote: “There’s nothing you can do that can’t be done.” – John Lennon Keywords: Community Conferences DevRel (Developer Relations) Organizing Events Post-COVID Challenges Funding Volunteers Leadership Sponsorship Community Engagement Hybrid Events Local Events Compensation Event Sustainability Speaker Fees Community Building Mentorship Innovation Corporate Sponsorship Emerging Trends DevOpsDays PyCon US Rethinking Conference Models Transcript [00:00:00] Jason Hand: Over the past few years, we've seen conferences ebb and flow. Some community run conferences have evolved into new things. New ones have sprouted up, while other annual favorites have sadly gone extinct. What goes into community led conferences, and how does someone get involved? Let's take a look. [00:00:20] Weslefy Faulkner: Conferences are such a big part of many DevRel programs. But where do they come from? Who puts them together and what really happens behind the scenes? We've gathered some of DevRel's event organizers who can help us out. Mo and Maddy, could you introduce yourself, starting with Mo? [00:00:38] Mo McElaney: Hello! Thank you for having me. [00:00:40] Mo McElaney: My name is Mo McElhaney. I work for IBM, leading the strategy of our open source AI developer programs in IBM Research. I ran a nonprofit teaching women to code from 2012 to 2018. I've spoken at conferences around the world. [00:00:59] Mo McElaney: And I've [00:01:00] organized a bunch of different conferences over the years. Burlington Ruby, UX Burlington, Vermont Code Camp, Offline Camp, Abstractions Conf in Pittsburgh. And currently I'm on the contact committee for PyCon US and Ray Summit. And I'm on the board of the Vermont Technology Alliance. [00:01:20] Matty Stratton: Great. [00:01:20] Matty Stratton: I'm Matty. I currently run developer relations and growth for a company called Aiven. And I also have my own DevOps podcast, Arrested DevOps, on the topic of community conferences. I've spent my time as a conference speaker at all sorts of community events all over the world. [00:01:36] Matty Stratton: I was the founder of DevOps Day Chicago, when that started. I've been a co-chair of the global team for DevOps days worldwide, and currently in an advisory role with that. I also help out with the content track for all day DevOps, and there's probably a bunch of other community related conferences that I'm forgetting about that I've helped out at some point over the years. [00:01:58] Matty Stratton: And so if I didn't name your [00:02:00] event and I helped you I apologize, hit me on Twitter and yell at me. Excited to be back on Community Pulse. [00:02:08] Weslefy Faulkner: You really have someone who loves the community when they can't remember all the things that they've done to help run conferences and help the community get together and. [00:02:18] Weslefy Faulkner: Speaking to passion and thinking about why you're doing this. What is your specific answer? Why, what led you to organize conferences to start with you, Maddie? [00:02:27] Matty Stratton: It's funny. And if I want to be a little introspective and honest, it's the same thing that I think brings me to organize. Anything is one of the ways that you can make sure you're involved in something is to run it. [00:02:41] Matty Stratton: And I look back over the time and I spent years running a community around swing dancing here in Chicago. This is not a good life lesson or a good way to live your life. So I don't recommend it. [00:02:52] Matty Stratton: But really the first community event that I. Got involved in organizing was DevOps days, Chicago, and it came from [00:03:00] being interested in DevOps days, having wanted to go to one and not having had the chance and saying, Hey, maybe we should have one in Chicago reached out to the global team, and they said, Oh last year, some people were interested. [00:03:12] Matty Stratton: I can put you in touch with them. Maybe y'all can figure it out where we are now. 10 plus years later after that, a fateful little meeting that we had in the second floor walkup consulting company thing. So it's interesting, and hear what most is what leads you to originally organize a conference and what keeps you doing it, or maybe two different questions and maybe we come back to that second one in a minute. [00:03:31] Matty Stratton: 'cause the answers are [00:03:32] Weslefy Faulkner: Yes. I would love that answer. And I think it also has. You don't have to be an expert in something before you start trying to organize around it, which is great. So Mo, what is your story? What got you involved? [00:03:44] Mo McElaney: That is a very good segue into my answer to that question because I'm a mid career switch into tech. [00:03:51] Mo McElaney: I coded before I had a full time job in tech, but I got laid off in 2009 when the recession in the United States happened. [00:04:00] And I saw all my friends who worked in software, whether they got laid off or not, they still were making money. So I was like, Oh, I need to really get into tech. [00:04:09] Mo McElaney: And so I started going to meetups. I was teaching myself to code for real. And then I started a nonprofit teaching women to code. And in doing that work, as anyone who's listening or anyone on the show knows, once you start organizing something, everyone wants you to help them with the thing that they're organizing. [00:04:30] Mo McElaney: And so because of running that tech community, Meetup. I got invited to organize our local Ruby conference because we were teaching a Ruby class and it just was a perfect synchrony. And then, in doing that work, I got invited to organize another conference and it was a way for me to learn from the best. [00:04:49] Mo McElaney: In the industry, because when you get involved with a conference, you're inviting people to come and speak who are really experienced or really interesting and have an interesting way of teaching a [00:05:00] concept. And my inexperience is what led me to organizing conferences. [00:05:06] Jason Hand: I feel like that's definitely similar to my experience and Wesley, I think, maybe you're also the same, but. [00:05:12] Jason Hand: To Matty's story, like mine's almost identical with DevOps days. I saw, I think, I don't know which DevOps days it might've been. Chicago was one of my, it was either Minneapolis or Chicago was one of the first ones I went to. And I was like, Oh, this is pretty rad. We need something like this in Denver. [00:05:26] Jason Hand: And it just is like filling a gap, filling a need of what was already a meetup going on in the area. And I was, just Oh we deserve something like this. Like the Denver area, the front range actually was what it was, when I was really focused on, because one of the tenants of DevOps days is to be very, ultra inclusive. [00:05:47] Jason Hand: And I felt if we called it DevOps days, Denver, some of the folks in Boulder. 30 minutes away, they may not come. It's not going to feel like it's one of their things. So we decided to call it DevOps stays Rockies, which meant to like [00:06:00] really, including the whole front range of, from Colorado Springs, all the way up to Fort Collins. [00:06:05] Jason Hand: I got yelled at for calling it Rockies, which is true because like we wanted it to be Denver, but. I felt like I got a pass on it because it was inclusive, in the Rockies, at least to the culture out here. Denver and Boulder are two different people or two different things. [00:06:18] Jason Hand: And you're just not going to get a lot of cross collaboration. So anyway, let's pivot a little bit on what Maddie was talking about. There's one thing about starting the conferences. It's something else to keep you coming back and doing it year after year or whatever the frequency is. [00:06:33] Jason Hand: I'm wondering if we can start with maybe Mo on you with this one. Is there anything that sort of keeps you returning back to these? Or is there something that inspires you to either grow it or maintain it? What are your thoughts around that? [00:06:48] Mo McElaney: Community conferences are the best. [00:06:51] Mo McElaney: I've made the best of friends at community conferences that I've attended. The organizers are always just really passionate about the community and it's [00:07:00] just always a wonderful experience. Sometimes it's really stressful because at a community conference, we're going to talk about the hardest thing about running community conferences, I think, but funding is always an issue. [00:07:09] Mo McElaney: So it's really stressful trying to figure out how you're going to. Have the money that you need to do the things you want to do and all that. And the other cool thing, as a developer advocate, it's a really easy way to see trends in the industry. If you're involved with the content for conferences, you're seeing what developers are interested in because you're seeing what they're submitting to the conference. [00:07:29] Mo McElaney: And so you get the inside. Track on what people want to see and what they want to be learning and what they want to brag about. [00:07:37] Jason Hand:Very true. And Matty, you're still on, are you still involved with DevOps Days Chicago or? [00:07:41] Matty Stratton: And that's a story about that. It has to do with actually connecting pretty well to what keeps you coming back. And one of the other parts is what makes it hard to not come back. What makes it hard to stop because sometimes you need to stop. But to answer your question shortly. [00:07:55] Matty Stratton: So this year is 25. We're not doing one for 2024. So the next DevOps day, Chicago [00:08:00] will be in March of 2025, a single day event, a new thing. I am an advisor. But they have asked me to be the emcee. So that part keeps happening, but it's about the people, but in two different ways. [00:08:13] Matty Stratton: So it's the, first of all, about sort of the participants and one of the reasons I use the word participant really intentionally there. So one of the things for the community event that is DevOps day Chicago, that we believe really strongly in Is that everybody there, nobody's badge says speaker or sponsor, whatever they all say, participant, because everybody is there to participate together and I feel really strongly that community events tend to be very participatory, you don't go there to be spoken at, maybe some people do, you do you man, that's not the intent. [00:08:44] Matty Stratton: But even as an organizer, it's like you're participating in it, you're part of it, and you see what everybody gets out of it, right? It's the thing of like, how many times over the years I will encounter folks at other events, [00:09:00] on LinkedIn, on socials, on whatever, someone comes on and they talk about how They came to DevOps Day Chicago, and that's what got them into the job that they have. [00:09:09] Matty Stratton: Things happen at these events that change people's lives. We think about things like TalkPay, which is a very popular thing at a lot of community events where people are very transparent about their compensation. And it literally gets people, when they know about people that have found better jobs, that have gotten paid better, that have done those things, you're like, how can you not have this keep going? [00:09:29] Matty Stratton: And from the personal. I hesitate to say selfish, part of that is, that's a little selfish too, cause I'm like, I feel awesome. And I'm like, cool. I was helpful and helped your life. My co organizers it's there. And, I know we're going to talk about how COVID changed everything, but I remember our first in person DevOps stage, Chicago being up on stage. [00:09:47] Matty Stratton: And I was just like in tears because I missed these people, even though we had done an event together, but even that event that was in person, Didn't get together the way that we used to, [00:10:00] and it was, I was like, these were folks that throughout the year, cause it takes a year to run this event, event would come off and we'd be like, all right, we're going to give ourselves like six weeks. [00:10:06] Matty Stratton: Everybody go back and get away from this for a minute. And we got to start again. And, you get together and we all go and order pizza to Margaret's house to review the talks. And this is the place we would go. And, you think about stories about drinking a bunch of beer at an elephant in castle and saying, Hey, Jerry, can I have money to buy a yak costume and. [00:10:24] Matty Stratton: Now we have one, it's like those types of things. And you have new people come in and out every year, but you have this set of folks and they're some of your greatest friends and you like to make things with them, but it's also a hell of a lot of work. [00:10:39] Weslefy Faulkner: Yeah. Conferences are a lot of work and I think everything that you mentioned is a form of pay or. Recompense for putting in that effort. And I know we, you mentioned the COVID during COVID. I remember us as a group and just the Royal us, talking about okay, so what are we [00:11:00] doing now? [00:11:00] Weslefy Faulkner: And then let's do some efficiencies of a virtual conference. Let's do more webinars. Let's write more blog posts, do more content. These things were in place of some of the ways that. We did some of that stuff at conferences. And then we're then after that, or during that period, we're also saying when will conferences come back? [00:11:19] Weslefy Faulkner: And then people will start meeting up again. And then the conversation shifted to, are they the same and what are we going to keep doing that we did during the lockdowns conferences do have. Some meaning, and there's only things you can do at conferences. [00:11:33] Weslefy Faulkner: So they're not good at everything, but they're good at some really great things that can't be replaced. My question is in this period of time where it seems like things have equalized. When you look now, do you look before COVID, would you say that conferences are at the same level? Have they increased? [00:11:52] Weslefy Faulkner: Have they decreased? Where are we now in terms of conferences as in before COVID after COVID Are things better and in terms [00:12:00] of the amount of events, are we seeing more people having more conferences, or are we seeing just less overall conferences, but better quality? What would you say? [00:12:08] Weslefy Faulkner: Let's start with you, Matty. [00:12:09] Matty Stratton: It's, haha y'all know how much I hate root cause and there's a lot of contributing factors to the landscape of community conferences today. But there is some definite causation because one of the things that was clear from the year or two of massive slowdown is for a lot of it and not necessarily what people want, but what organizations are willing to fund. [00:12:38] Matty Stratton: So it's a lot of, if what you get out of it is just, how much more can you learn in different ways? I think that, in my opinion, the bigger impact to what I would say is a decline in community led conferences. And it's a shame because this is not what I would have predicted and what I was hoping was going to come out of [00:13:00] COVID. [00:13:00] Matty Stratton: I thought it was going to be the flip. Yeah. Because of the costs and but I think it's less about maybe we could say that a contributing factor to the current economy is related to COVID so therefore it's COVID but in today's economy, the dollars and the ducats are harder to get and We also find a lot of folks in their community events are still wanting to run events in the playbook that they ran pre COVID when money was cheap and you could get lots of sponsor dollars and we're used to doing things in a certain way. [00:13:35] Matty Stratton: Anyway, I want to bring it back to the change that has happened, but I made a comment where I said this is not what I was hoping and If you look, we talked about this topic slightly on arrested DevOps in the retrospective of Chicago 2020. And I'll give you a link for the show notes. [00:13:49] Matty Stratton: And at the time, one of the ways I was thinking when I was looking at what was happening was with conferences starting to decline through COVID. My prediction. And maybe it was what I wanted to [00:14:00] happen was that we would see a rise in community events because community events are cheaper to do and to attend and thinking about, these big shows that cost bajillions of dollars remember at this time, too, we were seeing O'Reilly shutting down their way of funding that velocity going away all these big events and I was like, here we go community events. [00:14:22] Matty Stratton: And, maybe we missed it as community events to be able to refactor how to be able to optimize for the fact that they were, that community events tend to be local. They tend to be regional. Instead of having to try to do this scenario, because I think when the other thing in the decline besides the cost is that also people are trying to think about sustainability, right? [00:14:44] Matty Stratton: And they're like, Hey, maybe I don't want to be, maybe we shouldn't all. Be flying from the whole world to San Diego or whatever for this one big event. Whereas if we could have smaller bits and pieces that exist, so all these things have multiple contributing factors. [00:15:00] Anyway, do I see the thing that there's been a decline in community led conferences since covid? [00:15:05] Matty Stratton: I think yes, because of COVID, I don't know, but if that's the point in time, we are saying there absolutely has been, and I will, I can speak specifically from DevOps days. And I would love to hear what Mo and the rest of you do for the other events that you do. We have seen the number. It's very interesting because we look at how many DevOps days happen every year. [00:15:25] Matty Stratton: And that number like Was this massive spike in 2019? It was huge. And then you're like, Oh, and then they were like, none. But then you look at it and you're like, cool. Look at devopsdates. org and you see all these cities are having it. And as a core member, I can tell you, and you know how many of them end up getting canceled and don't actually happen. [00:15:43] Matty Stratton: How many? A lot. That's the scientific rational number of it is a lot or continually get postponed because, Oh, we weren't able to make our funding. We weren't able to do that. We have to cancel it. And so we're not back. And I don't know that we will be without [00:16:00] changing. [00:16:00] Matty Stratton: How we reason about these in kind of the new world. It sounds like the community run conferences need a collective PR department [00:16:07] Weslefy Faulkner: to help with getting the word out. [00:16:08] Matty Stratton: Don't think it's we need to realize that you don't, the money is not there. [00:16:14] Matty Stratton: So you don't, Maybe you have to run the event in a different way. You're used to being able to, and again, I'll tell you that like Chicago we always make a lot of money on our, I don't say we make a lot of money. We don't profit, but we get tons of sponsors. Our event is very expensive. DevUpstate Chicago costs over a quarter million dollars to run, do you need to spend that much money to run a DevOps space? You absolutely do not, but a lot of events are used to doing that and you're just like, yo we have to have 600 people cause we've always had 600 people and we have to have all of this cause we've always had it. And you're like, do you? [00:16:47] Matty Stratton: And that's the thing we miss. In Covid time was the chance to refactor and so why also most virtual events failed. ~~Sorry, I swear to God I'm gonna stop talking. ~~ [00:16:54] Weslefy Faulkner: ~~So Mo, ~~are you seeing what Maddie's seeing? And also are you in favor of a refactor? [00:16:58] Weslefy Faulkner: What do you think? [00:17:00] [00:17:00] Mo McElaney: I definitely am seeing exactly what Maddie's seeing. And I think it's also connected to meetups. I haven't seen meetups return to what they were. Anecdotally for me, a lot of the main organizers of my favorite communities either left DevRel or have been laid off and have been having job insecurity. [00:17:24] Mo McElaney: I think that's a widespread industry thing. It's been tough out there. And so it, my impression is that there isn't the same bandwidth for people to do the organizing. And maybe we didn't do a good enough job of raising up the next generation of organizers. I think that's another issue that is just a chronic thing in communities is having that mentorship where you're raising up the next people to come up behind you when you inevitably, either burnout. [00:17:55] Mo McElaney: Hopefully you don't burn out, but if you burn out, a lot of community organizers burn out [00:18:00] eventually. Or you just, your life changes and you can't do as much as you were doing before. And who are these people that are going to come up behind us to organize these things? And how do we make it a good experience for them so that they get what they need to take it over? [00:18:15] Mo McElaney: I also think that, yeah, I agree funding hasn't come back. It's tough to get funding. I agree with Maddie. I thought community conferences were going to come back strong after COVID, but it seems like the corporate ones are the ones that suck up all the funding and then there's nothing left. [00:18:30] Mo McElaney: And I feel like from my perspective, coming from a tech giant people want to fund the things that are going to have a big art, like ROI and they're, they want big numbers. And they're not looking at like the quality, but community events are just like such a different experience. [00:18:50] Mo McElaney: And you can have such a wider impact if you are investing in a whole bunch of communities like dev ops days or pi data, or all the [00:19:00] pi ladies, all these communities that have chapters all around the world. If you could invest in those, you're having smaller events, but the overall numbers are high, but I feel like, from what I've seen in the corporate trending around this, people want to see thousands of heads that are viewing your content and not necessarily just like a hundred in one event. [00:19:25] Mo McElaney: Even though the sponsorship level would be way cheaper than. Arguably the impact would be higher because you're actually getting a more authentic interaction with a smaller group of people and actually getting them playing with things. [00:19:40] Mo McElaney: Maybe people see your logo, but they're not actually doing anything because they're running around to the next session. [00:19:46] Weslefy Faulkner: Yeah. Those are really good points. I also think that, during the pandemic COVID period, productivity went to all time highs. And then after the rates [00:20:00] got increased, layoffs also happened that mass. [00:20:03] Weslefy Faulkner: And so now someone who's already working at their peak, and then on top of that, now they are taking on the work of their coworkers who are no longer at the company. Maybe they don't have the time to go to conferences as much. Maybe their routine has changed so that it feels like it's a little extra. [00:20:18] Weslefy Faulkner: But Jason, you have the next question. [00:20:20] Matty Stratton: Oh I just had one, there was one thing, a point Mo made about why places don't sponsor the community events and they want to get the thousand and one other thing that I've observed and I could be wrong. Community events tend to be not about. [00:20:34] Matty Stratton: Products and specific technologies. They tend to be things like PyCon or DevOps days or whatever, which means as a marketer, I don't understand the persona as clearly because we've had this conversation about why, it seems like nothing, no shade against KubeCon, but people want to spend way much more money sponsoring KubeCon than DevOps days. [00:20:53] Matty Stratton: And I've had organizers say to me like, Oh, it's because there's so many more people. And I said, no, because they know what they're there to buy. [00:21:00] But someone who comes to an event about DevOps. I don't understand who that is. I don't know if it's my target market or whatever. [00:21:07] Matty Stratton: And it's about an awareness thing. So one was we would have it at DevOps days where you would get to a fun thing where. There were events. I remember chef did this in one year where they were like, we're going to sponsor every single DevOps day. So it's really clear that we care about the community. [00:21:20] Matty Stratton: And I believe that they did and whatnot. But one of my favorite things that was interesting was for a time at monitor Rama. You didn't have, if you were in a certain part of the industry, you had no choice, but to sponsor monitor Rama, because if you didn't people wondered what was wrong, so if you were like in the monitoring space and suddenly you weren't sponsoring, basically what that said was we are struggling. [00:21:45] Matty Stratton: And this, but now it's, there's much more needing to connect like most to that ROI and to be able to say this is going to actually convert and that the long tail is because everybody when the. Beans start getting [00:22:00] counted and the economy shrinks down it, which it shouldn't because everybody is making lots of money, but whatever. [00:22:07] Matty Stratton: It's, it, it's you, I've said this about Deverell about when the economy gets tough, we have to do things that require less imagination to show value. And the same thing, your sponsorship has to require less imagination. It has to be a shorter line between sponsor dollars. And money, right? [00:22:25] Matty Stratton: That's just, that's where the economy is right now. But you can do those things. Anyway, you had a question. [00:22:31] Jason Hand: Yeah. You bring up a good point there, Maddie, because I feel like it wasn't just Monitorama. That's an excellent example. I think DevOpsDays was a good example of that too. Like a lot of companies, their marketing teams set aside a budget. [00:22:42] Jason Hand: The company needed to be seen as a good steward of the community as just a player in the DevOps space. [00:22:49] Jason Hand: Sometimes I think that maybe DevOps in general as a term or as a movement or whatever, like we, a lot of folks just have this feeling of what we solved for a lot of those problems. And so now [00:23:00] there's, we just don't have the need to like be there and be involved in those conversations because CICD has already been solved and the incident management has been solved. [00:23:08] Jason Hand: And like just a lot of the things that we were talking about we still talk about them, but in different ways. And so it's definitely that the budgeting has tightened up a lot. And I know for myself, like I'm much less willing to spend personal time outside of my like nine to five work to like work on or attend things, in the evening or on the weekends or stuff. [00:23:30] Jason Hand: I'm just not as interested. And some of that's just maybe age, I'm just grown older and I just rather use my personal time on other things. Some of it, I feel like I'm old and in the way sometimes. And maybe there's like a new crop of people who have a lot more creativity and ideas and I should just step out. [00:23:43] Jason Hand: I get aggravated when people older than me don't do that and I don't want to be that way. Also, a lot of the events have turned sadly into DevRel talking to DevRel. And that bothers me a little bit too. And I don't know what the solution is because, if you look at the [00:24:00] CFPs, that's just what we're getting submissions from. [00:24:02] Jason Hand: That is, that's what a bulk of the submissions are to DevRel. That's their job. It's my job to go and be in communities and talk and stuff, but I don't want to be talking to only other, I don't want it to be a room full of just You know, us, like I want to be talking to engineers and other folks too and learning from them. [00:24:19] Jason Hand: I think the refactoring stuff or the re-imagining of a lot of these events is underway in a lot of places. I can tell you about the DevOps days, Rocky's folks, a lot of them I haven't really been directly involved with this, but I'm going to start participating is they've taken what used to be like meetups and things like that. [00:24:35] Jason Hand: And now they go off into the woods, into the mountains and get together and connect their star links and spend a few days. Working, away from offices, but together with a smaller group of people. I like that idea. I haven't yet gone. I'm going to hopefully go to the next one. [00:24:50] Jason Hand: I think that's later this month. I'll be sharing a link to that in my checkouts later, but it's I think a really creative way. Instead of trying to find, a conference room [00:25:00] or some office that you can borrow or rent or something. [00:25:04] Jason Hand: And trying to get, people still had to pay for a meetup. com, which isn't cheap. So you had to get sponsorship money. And a lot of that is just people don't want to do that anymore. And so I think there is this way there's like new, I, a new movement. I don't know if movement's quite the word, but I like that I'm seeing some creative ways of getting folks together and at least, filling that void of I still miss you all. [00:25:26] Jason Hand: I still want to talk, but I don't really want to do it the way we used to do it. So anyway, those are just my thoughts around that, but let's pivot a little bit. [00:25:32] Mo McElaney: Just want to mention too, that like for me, my experience in organizing events. Most of it was unpaid labor. The large majority of it was unpaid labor. [00:25:44] Mo McElaney: And I was able to do that before I had kids. And because I was career switching and I felt like I had to to get where I wanted to go. And I just think that people should get paid to do this work. [00:26:00] Either, if maybe you're in DevRel and it's part of your job, but, you That wasn't a common thing that I've seen in community conferences. [00:26:08] Mo McElaney: And maybe people are less willing to do community conferences if they're not going to get paid for the labor. [00:26:14] Matty Stratton: That is really interesting because first of all, I'm actually a big believer in paying speakers. Not that Oh my God, look at my ice cold take that speakers should be paid. [00:26:23] Matty Stratton: But it's interesting because it's actually a very important rule. So theoretically DevOps days and organizers are not paid. Which again, goes back to that. Maybe we need to rethink some things because this happens often in DevOps and because DevOps has been around since 2009. [00:26:39] Matty Stratton: So a lot of the quote unquote rules and guidelines of this global event. They're not, they shouldn't be sacred with things like that. Cause the world changes in certain ways. And I understand like the reason the intent for a lot of times is you don't want these to be for profit things, but also people who work for a non for profit get paid, so it's a way to think about it, but you're right, because you have this [00:27:00] unpaid labor and it gets into the people who have the ability to do that. Money is not the thing that's annoying about all of this is the conferences that have the money to pay the people and do the things don't do it, or they do because people work there. [00:27:13] Matty Stratton: And unfortunately, community events, we try to be cheap and try inexpensive and accessible and all these things. If you could find some way to reward this, maybe you do that instead of having a big fancy party or. Heaven forbid a yak costume. No, you always have to have money for the costume and actually most importantly to have money for the cleaning of the yak costume. [00:27:32] Matty Stratton: Do not forget that when you pick your mascots. You got to set aside a budget for that. [00:27:39] Jason Hand: So it feels like we're talking a lot. We're covering several of the difficult areas of running these conferences. I'm wondering, and it also feels like we can bucket it into like pre COVID and post COVID too, but I'm wondering what other things are there that are difficult? [00:27:56] Jason Hand: Those are things to consider when putting on a conference or trying to maintain a [00:28:00] conference over 10 years like some of the ones out there are longer I don't know, Maddie, start with you, maybe on this one. And what are your thoughts? [00:28:06] Matty Stratton: One of the big challenges with an event like this and doing a thing. And I, it's going to sound maybe a little crass if you can't fire someone who's volunteering for performance. And this is often with many things people want to do. So again, give the, if you go back to the example of when we wanted to kick off the first DevOps day, Chicago, 15 people came to that meeting of the 15 people, three of us are still now, first of all, we're the three people that's crazy that we're still doing it, but how many fall in, how many people at anything like this, you'd see an open source, everything. [00:28:36] Matty Stratton: Oh yeah. I want to help with this. I'm like, I need someone to help. And I'll get this big influx of a dozen people like, we'll help work on the website. And then it doesn't happen. So one of the challenges though, is because especially you're trying to create, like organizing a conference is hard. [00:28:50] Matty Stratton: It has a lot of moving parts. People have different responsibilities. And if someone doesn't do what they're supposed to do or what they agreed to do, you really don't [00:29:00] have a lot of recourse. Because they're volunteering and you can't really, you could yell at them, but you feel like a jerk because someone's volunteering, they're doing their time, and everything like that. [00:29:10] Matty Stratton: And some of it you can't really even, and then sometimes you're like I can't even get rid of you because who else is going to do it, even though you're not. So that's one challenge of organizing. And the other part is just everybody has different ability to do what they want to do. [00:29:23] Matty Stratton: Like in terms of how much they commit, and it is probably not uncommon. I bet you, if you look at almost any community conference event, there are probably a handful of people that you feel like, if you ask everybody organizing team, they're like, yep, you know what? Jason and Wesley, they don't do crap and Mo does everything. [00:29:42] Matty Stratton: And, it's again, that I think is one of the big challenges of that is how do you balance that? [00:29:48] Mo McElaney: I think that managing the volunteers is the hardest. Aside from money obviously is always a stressor and, making sure you have enough to do what you want to do, but [00:30:00] managing the volunteers and also, mentoring people to take over and handing things off and being okay with them not being done the way you would want them done necessarily. [00:30:11] Mo McElaney: I think that's the hardest part. And that is crucial to making sure your community lives on past you. And yeah, it's a difficult part. I've done it well in the past. I've done it poorly in the past with events that I've done. And so I don't have a great answer, but that's what I think is the hardest. [00:30:33] Weslefy Faulkner: All right. We're good. We're coming up on the end of this, but I want to try to bring it on as actual advice for people who are listening to this that are just considering getting into this field of volunteering. [00:30:48] Weslefy Faulkner: What advice would you give them to help them make the determination if they should or should not? [00:30:53] Mo McElaney: I think that you should go in [00:30:54] Weslefy Faulkner: this? [00:30:55] Mo McElaney: Sorry. I think that you should go into it being really clear about [00:31:00] your capacity and what you have time for and the best way to communicate with you. [00:31:06] Mo McElaney: Because that will really help the organizer with leveraging you in the best way and. And then it also sets both of you up for success, because if the organizer knows what you're there to do and why you're there and, what you're not able to do, then they're not wasting your time, assigning you things and then you don't get them done and then everyone is frustrated and, so [00:31:34] Matty Stratton: I just want to double down on that. I want to agree. And I think you need to, when you're getting involved, be not only very clear about what you can do, but ask those questions if you're going to join an organizing event or something like that and say, realistically, what is the commitment you expect out of me? [00:31:51] Matty Stratton: What is, what, how, what do you need and what does that mean? And then sit down. And assume that it's twice that and say, does that fit [00:32:00] within your bandwidth to be able to do that because things are going to happen. Sit down and take a long, hard look at yourself and say, why do I want to do this? [00:32:08] Matty Stratton: Because there's going to be times that it's going to be super duper hard and you need to know that the reason that you're doing it is enough to pull you through the days that suck, so just know that. [00:32:18] Jason Hand: Awesome. As Wesley pointed out, we're getting towards the end of our time here. [00:32:21] Jason Hand: So I want to thank both of you for joining us. I think that community events are still out there. I wouldn't, I don't know if I feel to have the confidence to say they're thriving, but I feel like they're evolving. I know that DevOpsDays Rockies is much, much smaller this year. I'm a little bit excited about that for some reason. [00:32:38] Jason Hand: I think it's going to be, I don't know, maybe I just like change as long as it's a good change. I think it's healthy. They're holding it at a brewery this year. I'm just, I'm optimistic, to see how things are going to change a little bit here. [00:33:43] Jason Hand: Let's pivot away into our checkouts. As most of those of you've been listening to the show forever, we spend the last 10 minutes or so just going around the room and letting our guests and whoever's hosting share some of the different things that they are thinking about, reading about, watching, talking about just [00:34:00] anything that's on top of your mind. [00:34:00] Jason Hand: Moe, I guess if you are Ready? Let's maybe start with you and then go to Maddie from there and then Wesley, and then I can wrap things up. So what do you got for checkouts? [00:34:08] Mo McElaney: Okay. So I am a contributor to the contributor covenant and we are working on version three of that code of conduct. [00:34:18] Mo McElaney: So if you want to get involved in version three of this, a big part of it is we want it to be more transferable to in person events. not just open source projects. Relevant to this conversation. I also just this past Monday presented at PI data Vermont on cognitive bias and machine learning. [00:34:40] Mo McElaney: So if you are interested in that, you can check out the video it's coming out soon. I'm also giving that talk at AI for the rest of us in London this fall. If you're around there or thinking about going to that, stop by and say hello. And yeah, just non tech related. I'm also a Master [00:35:00] Gardener intern out of the University of Vermont. [00:35:04] Mo McElaney: So if you have garden questions, you can go to the Ask a Master Gardener hotline. You probably have an extension locally to you if you're in the U S. But yeah, so I hope if you are in a part of the world where gardening is possible, that your garden is lovely. [00:35:22] Matty Stratton: You're a master gardener. [00:35:23] Matty Stratton: That is amazing. [00:35:24] Mo McElaney: Haven't finished my certification yet, ~~but ~~ [00:35:26] Matty Stratton: you are you are, you're closer to it than the rest of us. I assume I know I shouldn't speak for Wesley and Jason, but I'm going to guess. [00:35:36] Jason Hand: All right, Matty. Let's hear your checkouts. [00:35:38] Matty Stratton: Yeah, a couple. So one thing there's a little bit of a theme here. So I've been getting a lot into weightlifting and working out over the last bit of time. And I can go on and on about that. And we'll talk about that another time, but there's a couple of things to check out. [00:35:52] Matty Stratton: One is there's this app that I like to do for keeping track of my lifting and it's called heavy H E V Y. There's a billion of them. And of course, [00:36:00] you'll see all the ads for all the AI generated and stuff, but literally you just want to keep track of stuff. Along those lines, there's this great trainer. [00:36:07] Matty Stratton: And her website is, she's a beast. co and she has this awesome program. If you're just getting started with lifting called couch to barbell, it's the liftoff program, but what's the greatest thing about it is there's a discord. For members of her newsletter. So basically for seven bucks a month, which is well worth it. [00:36:23] Matty Stratton: I spent so much time trying to find a community of people to live because of accountability and to learn from and everything. And everyone was like, here's an influencer. A lot of them can follow on Instagram. I'm like, that's not a community. And my friend Dave Shackelford that I used to work with at Patriot duty, clued me into the lift cord from this, and it has been the most amazing way. [00:36:42] Matty Stratton: I've got everybody gassing each other up. You have folks in there who have just started doing anything to people who are massively competitive Olympic lifters and all of this, and everyone. It is amazing together. So check it out. And then finally, the other thing I've been into lately, and I know I'm like a decade behind is fallout. [00:36:59] Matty Stratton: So the fallout [00:37:00] TV show, if you haven't seen it, check it out. It's amazing. It got me hooked on the game. Because the lore is great. It's quirky and funny. So anyway, check out [00:37:11] Matty Stratton: and everyone's dude, we've been playing Fallout. Like we started playing fallout like 20 years ago. Where are you? I'm like, cool. Soon I will learn about Mario. Just kidding. [00:37:17] Weslefy Faulkner: I [00:37:17] Matty Stratton: I already know about Mario. [00:37:21] Weslefy Faulkner: Yes. Also the fallout TV show is really good. And as an intro in terms of getting the, knowing what the scenario is for me, I only have one checkout and it's a book that I finished it's called, you're not listening. [00:37:35] Weslefy Faulkner: And the book is that I wanted to get it just to make sure that. I had all the techniques to stay engaged as a person with ADHD. There's often a conversation where I check out in the middle. And this gives some really good techniques about how to stay engaged, what to listen for, what are the reasons for not being engaged how to re engage how to understand if someone is not being engaged and making sure.[00:38:00] [00:38:01] Weslefy Faulkner: There are techniques in which you can phrase a question and pose an idea where you can get the maximum amount of engagement, which I think is also very important. Once again, the book's called you're not listening by Kate Murphy. [00:38:12] Jason Hand: Awesome. Yeah, I definitely need to add that to my list. [00:38:14] Jason Hand: I've got a few things here. I've got a couple of books. And then also I had mentioned that sort of new community type of event that's happening locally. If you're in the, what's called the Colorado region. Cause I feel like it's going to happen all over the place. You should check out wild spaces. [00:38:29] Jason Hand: That work. And or if you live in an area where you can get away from things maybe consider starting something similar. I think it's a pretty neat idea, very creative. And the books that I have are from a friend. SRE advocate former colleague at Microsoft David Blank Edelman. [00:38:46] Jason Hand: He's been a guest on our show a few times, but he just recently put out becoming an SRE and I'm I'd say about a third of the way through that. And it is really good. He's very funny. He's very smart. And all of that comes through in the book. [00:38:58] Jason Hand: He's got a lot of [00:39:00] smart people that he's talked to. So anyway, if you're in the DevOps SRE space, I highly recommend it. The other book I have actually David recommended this to me. So thank you, David. If you're listening. It's called, you have not heard your favorite song. And this is from somebody written by somebody who formerly was at Spotify and really just talking about sort of the transition into the digital music world. [00:39:19] Jason Hand: I think a lot of us have feelings around that. And I know for myself I'm big into music, both listening and playing. And I haven't gotten very far in this book, but I'm very curious to see what it does expose to me in terms of what it is you're missing out there. I think that there's, we all, I'm always coming across new music that I didn't know about. [00:39:36] Jason Hand: So I don't have a lot of feedback on what the book's going to tell me, but David says it's great. So I'm going to trust him and I'm looking forward to reading it. And I think that's it for me on checkouts. [00:39:45] Jason Hand: So anyway, thank you all for being here. Mo Maddy and Wesley, of course it's been great. Usually PJ, when he's on the show he's out today both him and Mary, but usually at the end, PJ likes to take us out with a little [00:40:00] quote from a musician that is somewhat relevant or just feels like the right vibe for today Wesley tossed a few into chat for me here because we didn't quite think about it ahead of time. [00:40:09] Jason Hand: I'm going to choose this one from John Lennon here that I like. For those of you who want to go out there and come up with something new to keep these community events, either floating as they are, or refactor them, like we said, or start something new. [00:40:24] Jason Hand: I encourage you to find some creativity, whatever that takes to do that. And the quote from John Lennon is there's nothing you can do that can't be done. And with that, I am going to say goodbye. Thank you so much to everyone joinning us today and we'll see you on the next episode of the community pulse. [00:40:44] Jason Hand: Bye. Checkouts Mo McElaney Contributor Covenant Presented “Digital Discrimination: Cognitive Bias in Machine Learning (and LLMs!)“ at PyData Conf on July 29 - look out for the video! Speaking at AI for the Rest of Us Conf in London this fall Ask a Master Gardener Hotline! Matty Stratton Hevy - lifting app She's a Beast - great program Couch to Barbell; amazing discord for folks/community Fallout - the game and the show! [Devopsdays Chicago CFP](devopsdays.org/chicago) opens Aug 5! Wesley Faulkner You’re Not Listening by Kate Murphy Jason Hand Wild Spaces Becoming SRE You Have Not Heard Your Favorite Song: How Streaming Changes Music by Glenn McDonald Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes and follow us on Spotify, or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we’re on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village. Artwork Photo by Tyler Callahan on UnsplashSpecial Guests: Matty Stratton and Mo McElaney.

In this episode of After Pulse 89, the co-hosts—PJ Haggerty, Jason Hand, Mary Thengvall, and Wesley Faulkner—continue the conversation from the previous episode of Community Pulse, discussing the transition of DevRel professionals who move on to different roles. The focus of this episode is on the evolving landscape of DevRel, the shifting career trajectories of people in the field, and the complexities that come with leaving DevRel roles to pursue new challenges. The hosts reflect on the shared experiences and skills DevRel professionals carry with them into their new roles, including the ability to learn and adapt. Co-Hosts’ Reflections: PJ Haggerty starts the conversation by celebrating the return of Matt and Taylor to the podcast. He reflects on how Matt’s departure from DevRel has played out, noting that Matt is doing well in his current role. He shares his own thoughts on the question that often comes up for DevRel professionals: "What happens after DevRel?" PJ highlights that while many in DevRel are content with their work, it’s natural for people to face burnout, and he mentions how important it is to recognize when to move on. Jason Hand adds that many people in DevRel often find themselves wondering what comes next when the "light burns out." He shares his own perspective as someone who enjoys learning and feels that the skills developed in DevRel, like the ability to learn new things quickly, are incredibly valuable in any role, including product management. Jason emphasizes the importance of focusing not just on job titles but on skills and experiences—what a person brings to the table rather than the specific job title they’ve held. Mary Thengvall talks about how, even when someone leaves DevRel, they often continue to apply the same skills they used in DevRel, especially when transitioning into product management or other fields. She emphasizes the idea that people in DevRel excel at things like product management tasks and skills, which can be leveraged in other roles. Mary encourages the audience to focus less on titles and more on the specific skills they bring to new roles, and she also mentions how this approach helps when looking for new opportunities. Transitioning Out of DevRel: Wesley Faulkner discusses how DevRel professionals often bring a wealth of diverse experiences and skills to their roles. He points out that many people in DevRel, including himself, have backgrounds in fields like engineering, customer support, and even politics. Wesley stresses that these diverse experiences help professionals navigate the challenges they face in DevRel and provide valuable perspectives in leadership roles. However, he also acknowledges that many of these past experiences are difficult to communicate effectively in traditional job interviews, which can make transitioning to new roles more challenging. Mary continues the discussion by highlighting how DevRel professionals are often misjudged in interviews due to the broad and sometimes vague nature of their roles. She discusses how one of her friends with experience in customer support, product management, and customer success had to downplay her job titles and focus more on her skills to find a new role. This idea of emphasizing "skills over titles" becomes a recurring theme throughout the conversation. Reflections on the State of DevRel Today: PJ Haggerty points out the disconnect between what DevRel professionals actually do and how companies currently define the role. He shares his frustration with how DevRel professionals are expected to have deep technical experience in areas like Python, Ruby, and AI when many of them do not have formal training in those areas. PJ believes that the true value of DevRel professionals lies in their ability to educate, explain complex systems, and bridge gaps, not necessarily in having deep technical expertise in every language a company uses. He argues that AI companies and other tech companies need to better understand the core skills DevRel professionals offer. Jason Hand chimes in with his own experiences working with developers at Datadog. He mentions how, in his current role, he’s helping engineering teams improve their communication skills, making them better presenters at conferences and user events. Jason expresses pride when a developer he worked with successfully presents a talk, even though the impact of his coaching is often invisible to the larger audience. This lack of visibility for the contributions of DevRel professionals is a recurring theme—many of their efforts are behind the scenes, making them hard to measure but still incredibly important. Skills Beyond Titles: Wesley Faulkner highlights the difficulty in expressing the value of the diverse skills DevRel professionals have developed. He shares his own experiences, including his time as a product development engineer at AMD and his work in political campaigns, noting how these diverse experiences shape how he handles tough situations in DevRel. While these experiences are incredibly useful, they don’t always fit neatly into traditional job descriptions. Wesley reflects that DevRel professionals often end up performing roles that involve explaining complex concepts, handling high-pressure situations, and working across teams, but these skills are often undervalued in more conventional job roles. Mary Thengvall echoes this sentiment, stressing that many DevRel professionals come to the role from "sideways" paths, bringing with them varied life experiences that make them uniquely equipped to handle the demands of DevRel. She highlights how people entering DevRel without this broader experience often lack the passion and historical context that more experienced DevRel professionals bring to the table. Without the context of the role’s evolution, it can be challenging for newer professionals to fully grasp the complexities of DevRel and to advocate for its continued importance. The Importance of Leadership in DevRel: Wesley discusses how the lack of senior leadership with traditional DevRel backgrounds can complicate the future of the field. He notes that while DevRel professionals bring valuable leadership qualities to the table, such as the ability to connect different departments and handle challenging situations, few of these professionals rise to senior leadership roles within their companies. Wesley argues that promoting more DevRel professionals into higher positions would help ensure that the value of DevRel is better understood and properly championed within organizations. Mary agrees with Wesley, emphasizing the importance of continuing to mentor and support those in DevRel roles, even when they transition out of DevRel into other areas. She points out that people like Matt, who have transitioned from DevRel into product management, still stay connected with the DevRel community and support those who continue to work in the field. Final Thoughts on Career Shifts and the Future of DevRel: The episode concludes with PJ reiterating the value of being a "jack of all trades" in DevRel. He reminds the audience that while it’s often said that "a jack of all trades is a master of none," there’s an important second half to the saying: "but oftentimes better than a master of one." DevRel professionals are skilled at learning, adapting, and picking up new knowledge quickly, which makes them well-suited for a wide range of roles, even outside of DevRel. Mary adds that the most important thing for DevRel professionals is to have a clear understanding of their skills and passions, so they can continue to thrive in whatever role they choose. Wesley echoes this sentiment, noting that DevRel professionals have valuable leadership skills that should be recognized and nurtured. Key Words: DevRel Career Transition Skills vs Titles Burnout Leadership Product Management Learning and Adaptation Community Engagement Job Market Disconnect Job Experience vs Skills Networking and Mentorship Career Growth Historical Context Jack of All Trades Themes: The Evolving Role of DevRel Professionals: The shifting expectations of DevRel and how people in the field bring diverse skills to roles that aren't always formally recognized as DevRel. The difficulty of translating broad DevRel skills into conventional job titles and how this affects career progression. Skills Over Titles: Emphasizing skills and experience over job titles, and how this approach helps DevRel professionals thrive in new roles like product management or leadership positions. The challenge of rebranding yourself and your skills when transitioning careers. Burnout and Career Shifts: The impact of burnout on DevRel professionals and the natural progression toward other roles, including product management. The importance of recognizing when it’s time for a change to avoid burnout and find new professional challenges. Leadership and Mentorship: The need for more senior leadership within DevRel and the value of promoting experienced DevRel professionals to higher organizational roles. The importance of mentorship and maintaining connections within the DevRel community, even when transitioning to other roles. Historical Context and Passion for DevRel: The disconnect between new and experienced professionals in DevRel, with the latter group often carrying a deeper understanding of the field’s evolution and the importance of advocating for its continued value. The importance of retaining historical context in the development of DevRel to ensure its future relevance. Value of Being a "Jack of All Trades": Embracing the breadth of knowledge DevRel professionals bring and how their versatility makes them valuable in many roles, despite the challenge of fitting into narrow job descriptions. Transcript Transcript [00:00:00] PJ Haggerty: That was a great episode. Really fantastic. Not just for the content, but I will say it's great because we hadn't seen Taylor and Matt on the podcast in a while. So it was really good to have them back. Especially because I think the last podcast we did with Matt was like, I'm leaving DevRel and this is what's happening. [00:00:16] PJ Haggerty: And then we got to see a couple of years later here, he's doing really well. So that's really good. DevRel then and now. Then and now. [00:00:23] Jason Hand: And I think we've all had, where [00:00:25] PJ Haggerty: Are they now? [00:00:26] Jason Hand: We've all had the thoughts, like what comes after, my, The light has burnt out for me in dev rel. [00:00:32] Jason Hand: What am I, what do I do next? So it was really easy to hear from them. [00:00:36] PJ Haggerty: And I think the most interesting point he made was, no, he's not really interested in coming back. He is completely happy and satisfied with the work that he's doing, which is fantastic. [00:00:46] Mary Thengvall: Absolutely. And I think it's always fascinating to see and to talk to people who are either thinking about leaving DevRel or have left DevRel to go, okay you've left the official DevRel [00:01:00] titles, but a lot of what you're doing is still the same work, right? It's the stuff that I, when you were in DevRel, I looked at you and went, Oh, you really excel at, And so it's cool to me [00:01:14] Mary Thengvall: but I think it's a cool thing to remember, because we do so many different things. In this space, if you have one piece that you're really good at, really passionate about, it is possible to take that and make that the core of a new position, right? [00:01:34] Mary Thengvall: Not only is it possible, but people thrive doing it. [00:01:37] Jason Hand: One of the things about most people who are in developer relations is that we are skilled at learning new things. And I think that's our greatest asset is that we are interested, just Matt was saying he's just like this hobbyist, like he'll just learn and dive in headfirst. [00:01:53] Jason Hand: I'm the same way. I've got way too many hobbies. Because I just, I'm a constant learner and I enjoy the process of learning. If there's a challenge, [00:02:00] I know I can get through it by just learning something, spending the time and investing in myself. And I'm trying to come to grips with something that I think a therapist or somebody told me along the way is like, when you get to a place where you're interviewing and you're trying to put yourself out there. [00:02:14] Jason Hand: You're not just a dev rel, you're not a thing. You are Jason, and they're hiring Jason and he's going to come with a lot of experience and he's got skills that he used to rely on. He's got skills that he has now, but the best thing that we might see on a piece of paper on my resume is that he is a constant learner. [00:02:32] Jason Hand: And so maybe one day I do want to be in product, even though I have zero real background in it, I think that hopefully they see through all that and be like, Oh, but that's Jason. [00:02:41] Jason Hand: And he, we know that he can, pull through. [00:02:43] Mary Thengvall: And the counter that I would make to that is you have zero, Official title of product manager experience. You have a ton of experience in product management, like tasks and skills and [00:03:00] those types of things. And there's a good friend of mine who's been looking for a new job for probably close to a year now and is struggling because she has customer support experience and product manager experience and customer success. [00:03:16] Mary Thengvall: Customer renewal type of experience. So if you look at her resume, she's bounced around between a lot of these different roles. And one of the things that she's found she has to do is put far less emphasis on these were my titles and far more emphasis on here are my skills. [00:03:33] Mary Thengvall: Past job experience from her resume entirely and leading with, look, here are my skills. And then you get to the bottom of that single page resume. And if you're interested in my specific job experience and titles, it links back to her LinkedIn. And so it's almost that kind of idea of okay, how do we emphasize here are the skills that I have here, the things that I thrive at doing [00:04:00] the environments that I thrive at. [00:04:02] Mary Thengvall: Most at and encouraged most by right and looking at it from that perspective, I think is a very different approach than many of us take, but can be so helpful in not just this economy, but when we're considering moving to a different type of position. [00:04:19] Wesley Faulkner: And it makes it hard for describing yourself, describing what you do, but also for others to do the intro, to find things that are good fit for you as well. [00:04:28] Wesley Faulkner: The saying, this person would be a great fit for this role. So I'm going to recommend them because I think we've talked about this before, they could say this person's a good person and they're good at what they do. And they do a little bit of everything, which does not fit with. Companies, the way that they advertise for jobs, they have these titles, they have these duties, and they're looking for the people who fit those, that specific set of requirements underneath each one of those titles. [00:04:53] Wesley Faulkner: And when, one of the things that we're good learners because we're. In that continuous cycle of learning [00:05:00] one, do one, teach one, right? That's the job. And so you're not only learning the thing, doing the thing, but you have to be skilled at explaining it. [00:05:09] Wesley Faulkner: If you are doing that constantly, there's almost nothing that you can't retain. And so you do that for years and then you have the pub quiz trivia and knowledge about technology, about development, about sales marketing and all the things around it, because that's what the job is. [00:05:26] Wesley Faulkner: And so it does make it difficult to just say I'm the square peg. And I will fit in this square hole. [00:05:34] PJ Haggerty: A good one. A good problem to have. [00:05:35] PJ Haggerty: Yeah. I think that kind of concept of the jack of all trades master of none. Like it's. It's true and not true. I think that when it goes back to, both what all three of you have just said, we're educators, but educators are educated. At least they should be, in the ideal situation. [00:05:51] PJ Haggerty: Educators are educated and that's why they're good at the things that they do. If I'm able to explain a process to someone, I'm able to explain that process. I can repeat the [00:06:00] process of explanation all that I want. [00:06:02] PJ Haggerty: And I was going to ask Taylor, but I decided to back off about layoffs and DevRel and hiring and interviewing right now. A lot of the places that are doing this are going in and saying Oh, you need to know, you need to have 80 years of experience doing Python and Ruby and AI and all of that. [00:06:18] PJ Haggerty: I don't need to actually be able to have any competency in any of those languages just because your product is written in it. What I need to do is have the ability to. Piece it all together and explain how to participate in it, how to use it, how to take advantage of your product, tool, API, whatever. [00:06:32] PJ Haggerty: And this is the big disconnect that's currently happening, I think. And why I think a lot of people are like, I'm going to leave DevRel because they're like, I don't have tons of places to be hired in the AI field. Very few of us who have been doing DevRel for a long time have had deep experience in AI. [00:06:49] PJ Haggerty: Where do these AI companies think they're going to hire people? They have to have a better understanding of how the job itself actually works. When you hire a marketer, you say you're good at marketing. [00:06:58] PJ Haggerty: When you hire a salesperson, you say you're good [00:07:00] at sales. When you hire someone in developer advocacy, you say you're good at engineering that you've never done before. That doesn't make sense. But if I say, I can educate them on how to use that should be what they're looking for. [00:07:10] PJ Haggerty: And that's the breakthrough I think we need to have. And we will stop hemorrhaging great DevRel folks. If we start hiring appropriately. [00:07:19] Jason Hand: There's always so much just debate. It feels like what developer relations is. And one thing that it definitely is, cause this is where I'm spending a good chunk of my energy, a data dog is working internally is working with our engineering team to help them prepare, all hands decks and make them better communicators. [00:07:38] Jason Hand: I mentioned dash the user conference that's coming up. I'm assigned to a couple of different. Presenters that are going to be speaking there and I'm their coach. I'm going to help them all along the way. They're already decent speakers, but I'm going to work with them, from the beginning to end. [00:07:54] Jason Hand: And it's going to be an amazing talk. And that's the relationship, that's developer relations. I'm working with developers [00:08:00] from, I can't mention the names just yet, but like some big name companies. And I'm, Lifting them up, and then where does that map, Matt kept saying things have to map to something with the business. [00:08:12] Jason Hand: It's a little harder to map that, but I do see, I do feel some pride when somebody that I worked with is now on screen or on stage and they freaking crush it, and not a lot of people know I influenced that. And that's hard because you can't put a metric to that. [00:08:27] Mary Thengvall: Also, it's something you don't want to brag about too loudly publicly. Because you don't wanna make that other person look bad and go [00:08:36] PJ Haggerty: you also don't wanna seem like it, you don't, you don't wanna seem like an asshole. Exactly. So I totally, yeah, I totally created the situation where so and so became a wonderful speaker. You're welcome. World , [00:08:45] Mary Thengvall: like exactly. Exactly. And so because of that, I think there's a lot of other things that we do really well that just aren't ever seen and are difficult to point to if we want to [00:09:00] maintain those relationships, [00:09:00] Wesley Faulkner: yeah, exactly. And most of us are career switchers who find themselves in. DevRel. And so not only are they learning new skills and doing this kind of integration with different departments, but they're bringing in a whole host of previous life experience that does help them. [00:09:16] Wesley Faulkner: That does enhance where they have their perspective on things, but then also doesn't necessarily come into context of what we talk about. For instance, I was a product development engineer for AMD for five and a half years, where I helped bring products to market. For OEM systems. And before that I did onsite deployments and emergency break fix for Dell. [00:09:37] Wesley Faulkner: And I worked there for six years. And so I was in front of the C level suite. Executives explaining the products and what went wrong and how we solved it. And coming up with a mitigation plan, that stuff doesn't come up in interviews. [00:09:50] Wesley Faulkner: It feels like it complicates the thing. I ran for city council of Austin, ran a whole campaign, created the whole and met with constituents and did all of the [00:10:00] stuff and the debates, all that stuff doesn't ever come up really. But. When I'm in those situations, when I'm trying to defuse a customer or a client that's having an issue when I'm taking Q and a after a talk and someone is wanting to complain about the company stance on a certain issue or how a feature is not created or that addresses their problem, those All come into play. [00:10:27] Wesley Faulkner: And, but it's hard to say and to say how valuable it is. And it's almost like when I did it, people notice things when something goes wrong and they get corrected, but they don't really notice the things that never become a problem. Absolutely. [00:10:42] Mary Thengvall: And this is something that we chatted with Matt and Taylor a little bit after the recording was done, but. [00:10:47] Mary Thengvall: Don't tell people about [00:10:47] PJ Haggerty: the secret [00:10:48] Mary Thengvall: tell them about the secret after posting. But Wesley, this goes back to your point that a lot of us who have been in the DevRel space for a while now got [00:11:00] here through a sideways path, right? We stumbled into this because of our other areas of experience. [00:11:07] Mary Thengvall: And I think that's one of the biggest issues that I'm starting to see right now. Like I have nothing against people cobbling together their own type of college resume and their own learning path to figure out, Hey I know people who do Debrel. I want to do Debrel. Can I do that straight out of college? [00:11:27] Mary Thengvall: That's fine. But the problem that I'm seeing is. Those of us who are more experienced who are getting tired of having to fight for What I do is important and here's explaining what I what my job is and doing it, you know in hard mode like taylor mentioned if all were Left with at this point is people who haven't had other roles don't have other job experience or coming into this as 22, 23 year old going, cool. [00:11:57] Mary Thengvall: I have my college degree and I now [00:12:00] know how community management works and how developer relations works and everything else. They're then trying to basically redefine DevRel without any of that. experience. [00:12:11] PJ Haggerty: Historical context. [00:12:12] Mary Thengvall: Well, [00:12:14] PJ Haggerty: and this goes to what Matt was talking about. [00:12:16] PJ Haggerty: Tired of fighting that fight and explaining what we do. If you come along and you don't have the history of what we've done, you have no desire to fight for what it is that we do or what this job is, you don't care about the definition. You don't, and I don't mean to dismiss people like that. I'm not trying to gatekeep, but honestly, you don't feel the passion. [00:12:34] PJ Haggerty: If you just came into the job, I was like, Define DevRel, and you're like, it's the job that I'm doing right now. If you don't like that, I'll go find a DevRel job somewhere else. Part of the want to keep doing this job is to keep redefining it, keep it evolving, and keep proving that there's a reason why we're about. [00:12:50] PJ Haggerty: But if you don't have the historical context, you don't know how to fight that fight. [00:12:54] Mary Thengvall: Yeah, [00:12:54] Wesley Faulkner: right. And the one way of preserving that historical context is promoting [00:13:00] leaders in dev rel to higher positions. Absolutely. To be able to not only make those calls, but have that influence to make those judgments about what direction the company should go in and also who. [00:13:09] Wesley Faulkner: Yeah. Who should be rewarded and what skills should also be reinforced so that it makes sense for you to keep developing those skills so that you can progress so that you can move up. And that's one of the things currently in this DevRel environment is that the senior leadership so few of them are from a traditional DevRel background. [00:13:29] Mary Thengvall: Mhm. Agreed. And I think that's such an important point, right? That if you are moving out of DevRel into other leadership positions, keeping an eye out for people who are in DevRel, right? Keeping an eye out for people who are in those roles. And I know Matt and I have talked about this before. [00:13:45] Mary Thengvall: This is something that he does, right? He is no longer in DevRel, but definitely continues to have those conversations, and continues to support people who are doing it because just because he doesn't want to have to fight for [00:14:00] that conversation anymore. [00:14:02] Mary Thengvall: It doesn't mean he doesn't have that context and experience to be able to help other people do it as well. [00:14:07] PJ Haggerty: I [00:14:08] Mary Thengvall: know. I do want to wrap it up in PJs. I know you normally wrap up with a quote, but you mentioned the after pulse, none. [00:14:16] Mary Thengvall: However, that's only half of the saying. And I think this is a really applicable time to bring up that other half. Because the full quote is actually a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one. Know more, have more context, learn more quickly than a lot of people who have only that single deep knowledge of that one topic so something to keep in mind for all of us and we'll see you next time on the next community pulse Thanks for joining. Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes and follow us on Spotify, or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we’re on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village.

Former DevRel professional Taylor Barnett-Torabi discusses transitioning skills, product roles, and navigating career changes. Topics include architectural decision records, book recommendations, music releases, and healthy conflict resolution in tech environments.

Our hosts elaborate on the notion that, apart from speaking engagements, much of the work undertaken by DevRel professionals remains backstage, yet through live streaming, they can learn publicly and involve community members, overcoming concerns and fostering engaging content for community learning. Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes and follow us on Spotify, or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we’re on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village.

With the exception of speaking at conferences, much of what we do as DevRel professionals is behind-the-scenes. However, with live streaming, we’re able to not only learn in public, but bring our community members into the experience. While this can be intimidating, and lead to questions like “what if I make a mistake?” - or - “What if I don’t know all the answers?” - or - “How do I make sure I come across as knowledgeable while I’m also learning?” it can also be a great way to create engaging content that helps your community learn alongside you. Checkouts Laurent Bugnion Learn Live - the show I produce for Microsoft GalaSoft - my website with my blog, past presentations and future appearances Darko Mesaros AWS Community - Livestreams rup12 Wesley Faulkner Spyware leak offers ‘first-of-its-kind’ look inside Chinese government hacking efforts Jason Hand “Use Gemini AI to improve productivity while using Datadog” @ Google Next Datadog On Data Science Mary Thengvall The Roaring Days of Zora Lily (and everything by Noelle Salazar) Timeshifter - app for avoiding jetlag Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes and follow us on Spotify, or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we’re on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village.Special Guests: Darko Mesaros and Laurent Bugnion.

PJ and Wesley expound on stories of success, what it takes to get to a "win" and reflect on their conversation with Ole and Kevin. Enjoy the podcast? Please take a few moments to leave us a review on iTunes and follow us on Spotify, or leave a review on one of the other many podcasting sites that we’re on! Your support means a lot to us and helps us continue to produce episodes every month. Like all things Community, this too takes a village.