Conversing with Mark Labberton

As global powers double down on militarism and defense, Daniel Zoughbie argues that the most transformative force in the Middle East has always come from citizen diplomacy. A complex-systems scientist and diplomatic historian, Zoughbie joins Mark Labberton to explore how twelve U.S. presidents have "kicked the hornet's nest" of the modern Middle East. Drawing on his work in global health and his new book Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump, Zoughbie contrasts the view from refugee camps and microclinic networks with the view from the Oval Office, arguing that American security rests on a three-legged stool of defense, diplomacy, and development. He explains why Gerald Ford stands out as the lone president who truly leveraged diplomacy, how the Marshall Plan model of enlightened self-interest can guide policy now, and why nationalism, not mere economics, lies at the heart of Gaza's future. Throughout, he presses listeners toward "citizen diplomacy" that resists pride, militarism, and fatalism. Episode Highlights "We've constantly ignored diplomacy." " You don't have to be enemies with people to get them to do what is in their own self-interest." "You can build skyscrapers in Gaza. You can build the Four Seasons in Gaza and it's not going to work. You're just going to have another war until you address that core issue of nationalism." "These three Ds defense diplomacy development are the three legged stool of American security and we know how important diplomacy and development are." "From Truman to Trump, only one president, and that is Gerald Ford, surprisingly the only unelected president, gets this right." "Pride—national pride, the pride of any one individual—is toxic. It's toxic to the individual. It's toxic to the nation. It's toxic to the world." "Foreign policymaking is not just something for secretaries of state and those in power. All of us in a democracy have a role to play." Helpful Links and Resources Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest/Daniel-E-Zoughbie/9781668085226 American University of Beirut (founded as Syrian Protestant College), a key example of long-term educational diplomacy https://www.aub.edu.lb Al-Ahli Arab (Gaza Baptist) Hospital in Gaza City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital Max Weber, "Politics as a Vocation" https://open.oregonstate.education/sociologicaltheory/chapter/politics-as-a-vocation About Daniel Zoughbie Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at UC Berkeley's Institute of International Studies, a faculty affiliate of the UCSF/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics, and principal investigator of the Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative. He is the author of Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and of Indecision Points: George W. Bush and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. His award-winning research has appeared in journals such as PLOS Medicine, Mayo Clinic Proceedings, and Social Science and Medicine. A Phi Beta Kappa graduate of UC Berkeley, he studied at Oxford on a Marshall Scholarship and completed his doctorate there as a Weidenfeld Scholar. Show Notes Middle East Background and Microclinic Origins Daniel Zoughbie recalls visiting the Middle East as a child—"frankly horrified" by what he saw UC Berkeley protests over the Iraq War and post-9/11 U.S. policy in the region Metabolic disease and type 2 diabetes as an overlooked "greatest killer in the region." Neighbors in the West Bank sharing food, medicine, and blood-pressure cuffs—leads to the "micro clinic" concept Good health behaviors, like bad ones and even violence, can be contagious through social networks Social Networks, Anthropology, and Security Social anthropology, political science, and international relations Medical problems as simultaneously biological and sociological problems Understanding Middle East security demands attention to decisions "at the very bottom" as well as "the view from above" October 7 and 9/11 illustrate how small groups of people can "change the world with their decisions." Complex Systems and Foreign Policy Complexity is always increasing, and diplomacy and development exist to slow it down. Definition of "complex system": as one where many inputs produce outcomes that cannot be reduced to single causes. "We almost have a new law here, which is that complexity is always increasing in the universe. And the role of diplomacy and development, as I see it in international relations, is to slow things down. It's to stop complexity from advancing so that people have time to cool their tempers and to solve major security crises." Type 2 diabetes as a model for thinking about how city planning, economics, relationships, and habits interact He applies that lens to international relations: nations, leaders, institutions, and history form a "cascade of complexity." From Refugee Camps to Presidential Palaces George Shultz and Tony Blair: decision-makers as "real human beings," not abstractions Theological and ideological forces—such as certain apocalyptic readings of scripture—that shape U.S. foreign policy Gnosticism and eschatology within American right-wing Christianity Painstaking global health work on the ground and sweeping decisions made in Washington, Brussels, or New York Twelve Presidents and One Exception Kicking the Hornet's Nest: analysis of twelve presidents from Truman to Trump through the lens of Middle East decision-making Core claim: Only Gerald Ford truly rebalanced the three Ds of defense, diplomacy, and development. U.S. policy in the Levant: heavy reliance on militarism, coups, and covert actions while underinvesting in diplomacy and development Claim: "Far better alternatives were on the table" for every administration, yet consistently passed over. Gerald Ford, Kissinger, and the Path to Peace Daniel contends that the 1967 and 1973 wars were both preventable and nearly became global nuclear catastrophes. Ford inherits the presidency amid Watergate and national division, but keeps Henry Kissinger at State. Ford presses Israel and Egypt toward serious negotiations, empowering Kissinger's shuttle diplomacy and personal ties. A sharply worded letter threatening to "reconsider" the U.S.–Israel relationship Ford's diplomacy and the development of Camp David and the enduring Egypt–Israel peace based on "land for peace." Pride, Personality, and Presidential Failure Did Ford's temperament keep him from making himself the center of the story? In contrast, many presidents and other leaders write themselves "thickly" into the narrative of the conflict. Pride—personal and national—as a toxic force that repeatedly undermines U.S. policy The Iraq War and democracy-promotion agenda and the self-defeating nature of moralistic, militarized crusades Marshall Plan and Enlightened Self-Interest George Marshall and harsh punishment after World War I helped produce Nazi Germany The Marshall Plan models an "enlightened way of viewing the American self-interest": rebuilding Europe and Japan to secure U.S. security. He contrasts that with the neglect of the Levant, where aid and institution-building never matched military activism. Marshall's genius lies in locating the intersection between others' deepest needs and American capabilities. Militarism, Iran, and Nuclear Risk Recent U.S.–Israel–Iran confrontation as an "extremely dangerous moment"—with 60 percent enriched uranium unaccounted for JCPOA as an imperfect but effective diplomatic achievement, but dismantled in favor of militarism Claim: Bombing Iran scattered nuclear material and increased complexity rather than reducing the threat. He warns that one nuclear device could be delivered by low-tech means—a boat or helicopter—endangering civilians and U.S. forces in the Gulf. The only realistic path forward: renewed multilateral diplomacy between U.S., Israel, Iran, Russia, China, Pakistan, India, and regional actors Ethical Realism and Max Weber "Ethical realism"—Max Weber's distinction between the ethic of the gospel and the ethic of responsibility Statespeople bear responsibility for using force, yet the greatest can still say "here I stand and I can do no other." Claim: True leadership seeks a higher ethic where national interest aligns with genuine concern for others. Gaza, Nationalism, and Two States Welcoming the end of active war between Israel and Hamas and critiquing reconstruction plans that ignore politics Conflict is fundamentally nationalist: a struggle for self-determination by both Jewish and Palestinian peoples Claim: Economic development without a credible political horizon will not prevent "another October 7th and another terrible war." In his view, only partition of mandatory Palestine into two states can meet legitimate self-determination claims. For example, "You can build skyscrapers in Gaza… and it's not going to work" without addressing nationalism. Citizen Diplomacy and a Better Way Foreign policy is not only the work of secretaries of state; democratic citizens have responsibilities. American University of Beirut and the Gaza Baptist Hospital as fruits of citizen diplomacy Claim: Educational and medical institutions can change lives more profoundly and durably than military campaigns. Redirecting resources from bombs to universities and hospitals to reduce the need for future military interventions An invitation to citizen diplomacy: informed voting, sustained attention, and creative engagement for a more just peace Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Rabbi Michael G. Holzman joins Mark Labberton to explore the formation of his Jewish faith, the pastoral realities of congregational life, and the multi-faith initiative he helped launch for the nation's 250th anniversary, Faith 250. He reflects on his early experiences of wonder in the natural world, the mentors who opened Torah to him, and the intellectual humility that shapes Jewish approaches to truth. Their conversation moves through the unexpected depth of congregational ministry, the spiritual and emotional weight of the pandemic, the complexities of speaking about God in contemporary Jewish life, and the role of cross-faith friendships. The episode concludes with Rabbi Holzman's reflections on how the suffering in Israel and Palestine reverberates among Jews and Muslims in America. Episode Highlights "I think we are desperately in need of ways to get Americans to agree that they're in the same community… simply by naming the Declaration of Independence as a piece of shared American scripture… we are inviting people and really challenging ourselves to think about the words in those documents seriously, and prayerfully." "My formation as a child was relatively non-theological… my mother just would sit there and say, 'Do you feel that wind?' And for me, knowing that it was in a national park mattered… being in such a grand and awesome space, under the enormity of the heavens." "The pursuit of truth with epistemic humility really became the cornerstone…if Moses wasn't allowed to see God's face, I'm never gonna see God's face—and yet we are all still pursuing what the meaning of this incredible text is." "I was a little bit unprepared… until you experience it as a pastor, you don't really understand the power of those things. That rootedness in this particular congregation gave me a sense of existential meaning that I didn't anticipate." "The thing that got me through that darkness was Saturday morning Torah study… just being there with the text and with these faces and these people… that to me was my path through the darkness." "When people are sitting over the text, the most palpable experience of God is this moment of understanding another human being… it's so vulnerable and it's so fleeting and it's so beautiful." "There is an experience happening on the ground of absolute suffering and horror on both sides… and there's a parallel experience happening for Jews and Muslims in America. It's powerful, spiritually powerful, emotionally powerful, and to people's core." Helpful Links and Resources Faith 250 https://www.faith250.org/ "The New Colossus" by Emma Lazarus https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46550/the-new-colossus "What to the Slave Is the Fourth of July?" by Frederick Douglass https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/what-to-the-slave-is-the-fourth-of-july/ "America the Beautiful" by Katherine Lee Bates https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-primary-source/america-beautiful-1893 I and Thou, Martin Buber https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780684717258/i-and-thou About Rabbi Michael G. Holzman Rabbi Michael G. Holzman is the Senior Rabbi of Northern Virginia Hebrew Congregation (NVHC), where he has served since 2010. His work focuses on spiritual formation, civic engagement, multi-faith partnership, and the cultivation of communities grounded in dignity, learning, and ethical responsibility. He founded the Rebuilding Democracy Project, which developed into Faith 250, a national multi-faith initiative preparing communities for the 250th anniversary of the United States through shared reflection on foundational American texts. He teaches and writes on Jewish ethics, civic life, and spiritual resilience. Show Notes Faith 250 American Scripture Faith 250 as a response to political despair and a way for clergy to exercise agency Four core American texts explored as shared scripture across faiths Intent to counter politicization of the 250th anniversary through spiritual depth Multi-faith relationships grounding the initiative in shared civic and moral concern Emphasis on clergy as conveners of spiritually safe, local containers for reading The Declaration, New Colossus, Frederick Douglass, and America the Beautiful as "scriptural" portals to civic meaning "American scripture" as a means of naming shared identity and shared community Jewish Formation and Torah Childhood shaped by nature, wonder, and ethical awareness rather than synagogue life Early encounters with the Everglades as formative experiences of spirit and awe Discovery of Torah study as a young adult across Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform settings Epistemic humility as a defining mark of Jewish study practice Pursuit of truth understood through the "through a glass darkly" frame of Moses Torah received "through the hand of Moses" as mediating truth and mystery Chevruta (paired study) as the engine of discovery, disagreement, and meaning Pastoral Life and Congregational Meaning Surprised by the depth of pastoral work: weddings, funerals, life-cycle passages Intimacy of congregational leadership as a source of meaning rather than tedium Congregational relationships forming an existential and vocational anchor The role of community support during family medical crises How decades-long pastoral presence shapes shared covenantal life Teaching 12- and 13-year-olds to encounter the text as spiritual practice The power of intergenerational relationships in spiritual resilience Pandemic and Spiritual Survival Early months of 2020 as a time of fear, isolation, and emotional strain Counseling families whose loved ones were dying without visitors Previous experience with depression creating early warning signals Telehealth therapy as a critical intervention Saturday morning Torah study on Zoom becoming the path through darkness Growth of the study community throughout the pandemic Predictable humor and shared reading as markers of communal stability Textuality, God-Language, and Jewish Hesitations Jewish discomfort speaking explicitly about God for theological and cultural reasons Layers of humility, anti-mysticism, differentiation from Christianity, and historical experience Sacredness and mystery of the scroll growing in the digital age Physicality of the Torah scroll attracting deeper attention and reverence Hebrew as a source of multivalent meaning, sonic power, and spiritual resonance Reading together as the most common encounter with God: understanding another's soul Pastoral awareness of individuals' life stories shaping group study dynamics Cross-Faith Devotion and Shared Honor Friendships with Muslim, Christian, and Hasidic leaders deepening spiritual insight Devotion in others sparking awe rather than defensiveness Disagreement becoming a site of connection rather than separation Devotion in other traditions prompting self-reflection on one's own commitments Stories of praying with and learning from ultra-Orthodox leaders Shared pursuit of truth across tradition lines as a form of civic and spiritual honor American religious diversity offering unprecedented exposure to sincere piety Israel, Gaza, and American Jewish Experience Suffering, fear, and horror experienced by Israelis and Palestinians Parallel emotional and spiritual pressures faced by Jews and Muslims in America Concern about political manipulation of community trauma Generational trauma and its transmission, including Holocaust-era family stories Emotional resonance of global conflict in local congregational life Distinction and connection between geopolitical realities and American spiritual experience Call to honor emotional realities across neighborhoods and communities Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

In this Thanksgiving reflection, Mark Labberton opens up about a period of darkness and despair, when as a younger man he considered ending his life. But when he was invited to share Thanksgiving dinner with a local couple, his eyes were opened to concrete acts of hope, friendship, and joy—all embodied in the simple feast of a community "Friendsgiving" potluck. Every year since, Mark calls these friends on Thanksgiving Day, in gratitude for and celebration of the hospitality, generosity, beauty, friendship, and hope he encountered that day. Here Mark reflects on the emotional and psychological difficulties he was going through, the meaning and beauty of friendship, how every dish of a Thanksgiving dinner is an act of hope and community, and how hospitality and generosity can uplift every member of a community. If you or anyone you know is struggling with depression or considering suicide, there is help available now. Simply call or text 988 to speak with someone right away, share what you're going through, and get the support you need. About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller's fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He's the host of Conversing. Show Notes A story about Thanksgiving Day many years ago, during Mark Labberton's master of divinity degree at Fuller Seminary "… not just overwhelmed, but really undone" " … the possibility of ending my life …" Every Thanksgiving dish as an act of hope and community Beauty of friendship A magnificent extravaganza Sharing not just food but hope "Things had radically changed. And that in fact they had, they had not only changed my mindset, but they had saved my life." "For me, Thanksgiving Day holds this deep and pensive awareness that Thanksgiving doesn't always come easy, that often it's a difficult act, that it involves things that are sometimes impossible for certain people to carry. And at the same time, it's possible for other people to carry them in our place, which is what these friends did for me that day." If you're feeling despair, seek professional help. Call or text 988 for an immediate response with a counsellor. Seek community. "Whether you're in darkness or in light, whether your heart feels full of gratitude or whether it may not, I just hope that you'll be aware that God is with you, that you are not alone, that there are people that want to support you and help you, and that there are people that know you who would welcome you into a circle of celebration and gratitude today." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

To exist as a black male in America is to be perceived as a threat, where criminality is attributed by default and violence is justified from racial bias. And as a young man, Pastor Mike McBride learned through personal experience that following Jesus does not protect you from the violence of the state. How could it, when Jesus himself was crucified by religious- and state-sponsored violence? In this episode, Pastor Mike (The Way Christian Center, Berkeley, CA) joins Mark Labberton to discuss the confluence of Black Pentecostal holiness, police brutality, gun violence prevention, Christian nationalism, political polarization, racial justice, and the urgent spiritual crisis facing the American church. From his childhood in the San Francisco neighborhood of Bayview–Hunter's Point, to the trauma of a police assault in 1999, to national leadership in Ferguson, to confronting the rise of authoritarian Christianity, Pastor Mike traces the formation of his vocation and the cost of staying faithful to Jesus in a nation shaped by anti-blackness and state-sponsored violence. His story of survival, theological awakening, moral urgency, and hopeful action is rooted in the gospel's call to respond with peaceful action against the violence of the world. Episode Highlights "What is it about this gospel that their family members, their parents trust you with the salvation of their souls, but not the safety of their bodies." "It forced me to really have a strong come to Jesus meeting about how am I being prepared to do what I was already feeling a lifeline calling of ministry while I was starting the work of justice as a first victim and crime survivor." "It is some kind of delusion for us to follow Jesus who got crucified and killed by the state and then be surprised when we get crucified by the state." "I think there was just this sensibility that was a part of our upbringing that this is what it means to be black in America." "People are being discipled into racism. People are being discipled into anti-blackness." "I hope that feeding the hungry clothing the naked healing the sick is not something that in 2025 Christians identify as some leftist socialist liberal Christianity or we've lost it." Helpful Links and Resources Live Free USA https://www.livefreeusa.org Roots, Alex Haley https://www.amazon.com/Roots-American-Family-Alex-Haley/dp/030682485X Boston TenPoint Coalition / Eugene Rivers https://btpc.org/ Oscar Grant Case (NPR Overview) https://www.npr.org/2010/07/09/128401136/transit-officers-verdict-sparks-violent-protests About Michael McBride Pastor Michael McBride (often known as "Pastor Mike") is the National Director of Live Free USA, a nationwide movement of faith leaders and congregations dedicated to ending gun violence, mass incarceration, and the criminalization of Black and Brown communities. A respected activist, pastor, and organizer, he has been a prominent voice in national efforts to address police violence, promote community-based safety strategies, and mobilize churches for racial justice. Pastor Mike is also the founding pastor of The Way Christian Center in Berkeley, California. His leadership, advocacy, and public witness have been featured across major media outlets, integrating faith, justice, and community transformation. Show Notes Holiness, formation, and black pentecostal roots Growing up as the second oldest of six in Hunters Point with deep Southern family roots "We grew up just very much enmeshed in a black church, holiness culture." Strict holiness prohibitions: no movies, no drinking, no secular music, no dancing. Holiness as both constraint and survival strategy during the crack era The world of Southern Baptist school culture colliding with black identity Racial Identity, Civil Rights Memory, and Family Formation Annual watching of Eyes on the Prize as civic and spiritual ritual. Leaving school to attend MLK Day celebrations: "I dare you to say something about it." Roots, Alex Haley, and early consciousness of black struggle and survival State violence, trauma, and theological turning point March 1999 police assault: physical and sexual violence during a "weapons search." "You can be following Jesus faithfully and still be subjected to violence at the hands of the state." The dissonance of worshiping a crucified Messiah while denying contemporary crucifixions Youth in his ministry revealing they didn't tell him because "we didn't think the church would do anything." Call to ministry, theological awakening, and training Exposure to church history, patristics, Thomas Merton, and MLK Jr. Grant Wacker inviting him to Duke; scholarship leading to seminary training Influence of black theologians and faculty shaping his justice imagination Meeting Eugene Rivers and the birth of a vocation in violence reduction and organizing Ferguson, activism, and the crisis of Christian witness Returning from Cape Town when Mike Brown was killed; sudden call to St. Louis Tear gas, militarized police, and "the ugly underside of the American law enforcement apparatus." "Our marriages didn't survive that era." Ferguson as exposure of the divide within the American church: respectability politics, sexuality panic, racial division "People are being discipled into racism … into militarism … into economic exploitation." Political polarization and Christian Nationalism 2016–present: Trumpism as a carrier of a broader reactionary Christian political project. Concern for Christian authoritarianism masquerading as religious fidelity. "You should definitely live out your convictions… but that don't mean you should kill everybody else on your hill." Deep grief over the church's inability to discern the danger George Floyd, red lines, and the urgency of now Summer 2020 as national smelling salt: "the banality and the violence of this state." The ceiling on empathy in American evangelicalism Targeted universalism and the need for differentiated strategies for shared goals Wealth inequality, homelessness, hunger, and the moral failure of Christianized politics "I hope that feeding the hungry clothing the naked healing the sick is not something… Christians identify as leftist." Participatory democracy as spiritual stewardship The Trinity as a model of unity-with-difference Holiness as public witness: protecting bodies and souls A charge to oppose Christian nationalism and join justice-infused faithfulness Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Justin Giboney, co-founder of the AND Campaign and a political strategist, explores the intersection of faith and civic engagement. He discusses how the black church offers a model for bridging ideological divides and fostering moral imagination, reflecting on the civil rights legacy. Giboney emphasizes the importance of self-sacrificial love and communal commitments for a credible Christian witness in today's polarized climate. He draws inspiration from figures like his grandmother and Mahalia Jackson, advocating for an integrated approach to faith that transcends partisan divides.

What is the book of Revelation really about? For ages, it has been the source of sensationalism, idolatry, confusion, and end-times predictions. But at its root, it is about the power and worship of the Lamb who was slain. Biblical scholar Michael J. Gorman joins Mark Labberton to explore how Christians can read the book of Revelation with wisdom, faith, and hope rather than fear or sensationalism. Drawing from his book Reading Revelation Responsibly: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation, Gorman offers a reorientation to Revelation's central vision: worshipping the Lamb, resisting idolatrous power, and embodying faithful discipleship in the world. Together they discuss Revelation's misuses in popular culture, its critique of empire and nationalism, and its invitation to follow the crucified and risen Christ into the new creation. Episode Highlights "The book of Revelation is about lamb power—not hyper-religious or political power. It's about absorbing rather than inflicting evil." "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the book of Revelation." "We shouldn't look for predictions but for parallels and analogies." "Worship, discipleship, and new creation—that's where Revelation hangs its hat." "At its root, Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry." "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Helpful Links and Resources Reading Revelation Responsibly – https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Revelation-Responsibly-Following-Creation/dp/1606085603/ Reverse Thunder by Eugene Peterson – https://www.amazon.com/Reversed-Thunder-Revelation-Praying-Imagination/dp/0060665033 St. Mary's Seminary & University, Baltimore – https://www.stmarys.edu About Michael J. Gorman Michael J. Gorman is the Raymond E. Brown Professor of Biblical Studies and Theology at St. Mary's Seminary & University in Baltimore, Maryland. A leading New Testament scholar, he is the author of numerous books on Pauline theology and Revelation, including Reading Revelation Responsibly, Cruciformity, and Participating in Christ. Gorman's teaching and writing emphasize Scripture as a call to cruciform discipleship, faithful worship, and the hope of new creation. Show Notes Introducing Reading Revelation Responsibly "This book is for those who are confused by, afraid of, and or preoccupied with the Book of Revelation." "Apocalypse" means revelation, not destruction. Emerging from twenty-five years of study and teaching, aimed at rescuing Revelation from misinterpretation or neglect Growing up amid 1970s end-times obsession—Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth and fearful youth-group predictions of the world's end Fear of the book of Revelation until he studied it with Bruce Metzger at Princeton Seminary Why he wrote the book: for people who have been scared or confused by Revelation's misuse Interpretation and misreading the book of Revelation Early questions: Does Revelation predict particular events or people? No predictions, but symbolic speaking into every age "Our task is not to find predictions but to discern parallels and analogies." Warning against mapping Revelation onto modern crises or personalities "When those predictions fail, the book gets sidelined or scoffed at." Keep one foot in the first-century context and one in the present Worship and discipleship The heart of Revelation is worship. "This is a book about worship—and about the object of our worship." Explaining the subtitle: Uncivil Worship and Witness—Following the Lamb into the New Creation "Uncivil worship" contrasts with "civil religion"—worship that refuses to idolize political power Influence from Eugene Peterson's Reverse Thunder and his own teaching at St. Mary's, where Peterson once taught Revelation Worship leads to discipleship: "Those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes." True discipleship mirrors the Lamb's humility and non-violence. The lamb and the meaning of power Interpreting Revelation's vision of the slain and standing Lamb as the key to understanding divine power "The crucified Messiah is the risen Lord—but he remains the crucified one." The Lamb appears twenty-eight times, a symbol of universality and completeness. "Revelation is about lamb power—absorbing rather than inflicting evil." Discipleship is cruciform: following the Lamb's way of self-giving love. The unholy trinity and the danger of idolatry Chapters 12–13 depict the dragon and two beasts—the "unholy trinity" of satanic, imperial, and religious power. "Power gone amok": political, military, and spiritual domination that mimic divinity How true worship resists empire and exposes idolatry Warning against reading these beasts as predictions of the UN or the pope; rather, they reveal recurring alliances of religion and politics "At its root, Christian nationalism is idolatry." When political identity eclipses discipleship, "political power always wins, and faith loses." Faith, politics, and worship today Christian nationalism as a modern form of "civil religion," conflating patriotism with divine will "It's only Christian in name—it lacks Christian substance." Idolatry is not limited to one side: "It permeates the left, the right, and probably the centre." Labberton agrees: false worship is endemic wherever self-interest and fear shape our loves. Both stress that Revelation calls the church to worship the Lamb, not the state. "Revelation critiques all human systems of false worship." Revelation's goal: Not destruction, but new creation "Destruction is penultimate—cleansing the way for renewal." Believers already live as citizens of that new creation. "The only way to come out of Babylon is to go back into Babylon with new values and new practices." Communal, not merely individual, discipleship: "Revelation is written to churches, not just believers." Reinterpreting Revelation 3:20: Jesus knocking isn't an altar call to unbelievers but Christ seeking re-entry into his own church. "Jesus always wants to come back in." Living revelation today Spirituality of hope, not fear or withdrawal "Reading Revelation responsibly means engaging the world through worship and witness." How true worship is dangerous because it transforms our allegiance. "Following the Lamb into the new creation is the church's act of resistance." Conclusion: "Worthy is the Lamb." Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Adverse childhood experiences are notoriously hard to overcome, and they can affect a person well into adulthood. But the grace of close, stable, nurturing relationships can offer hope. Terence Lester—author of From Dropout to Doctorate and founder of Love Beyond Walls—joins Mark Labberton for a conversation about resilience, faith, and the redemptive power of seeing and being seen. Lester recounts his life's journey from poverty, homelessness, and gang membership in southwest Atlanta to earning his PhD in public policy and social change. Together, they explore the impact of childhood trauma on personal development; education as a form of love, justice, and community service; and the healing potential of local community and proximity. Lester's story is a testament to divine grace, human courage, and the transformative impact of compassionate words and faithful presence. Episode Highlights "The higher your ACE score, the more your body has to overcome… Every 'yes' cultivates a stronger relationship with pain. Your counterparts with lower scores may never develop those same muscles of resilience." "Education is a tool that increases your capacity to serve others." "People don't become what you want them to become—they become what you encourage them to become." "I am a product of people who invested in me and of the things I've had to resist." "You can't love your neighbour if you're not concerned about the neighbourhood that produces your neighbour." "Each sentence spoken can become a seed of hope—or a curse that crushes it." Helpful Links and Resources Terence Lester's website – https://terencelester.com/ From Dropout to Doctorate – https://www.ivpress.com/from-dropout-to-doctorate I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People – https://www.ivpress.com/i-see-you Love Beyond Walls (Terence Lester's non-profit) – https://www.lovebeyondwalls.org ACEs Study (Adverse Childhood Experiences) – https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/index.html The Color of Compromise by Jamar Tisby – https://jemartisby.com/the-color-of-compromise/ About Terence Lester Terence Lester is a speaker, activist, author, and founder of Love Beyond Walls, a non-profit organization dedicated to raising awareness about poverty and homelessness while mobilizing communities to serve those in need. A graduate of Union Institute & University with a PhD in public policy and social change, he is the author of I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, **and All God's Children: How Confronting Buried History Can Build Racial Solidarity. His latest book is From Dropout to Doctorate: Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice. Through storytelling, advocacy, and faith-rooted organizing, Lester seeks to dismantle systemic barriers and call communities toward justice, empathy, and proximity. Show Notes Education and social change Terence Lester describes sitting beside his father's hospital bed reflecting on vulnerability, legacy, and resilience. His father's words—"I'm proud of you"—affirmed the journey from poverty to doctorate. Growing up amid trauma, gangs, and homelessness in southwest Atlanta. The generational impact of systemic injustice and public policy shaping social outcomes Education as a tool for empowerment and community transformation, not self-advancement "Education is a tool that increases your capacity to serve others." How the post–Civil Rights era shaped identity and pride in blackness while still marked by inequality Frames poverty itself as a form of trauma, calling for empathy and systemic response Trauma, resilience, and the ACEs framework Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) test as a tool for understanding trauma Lester shares his 10/10 ACE score—complete exposure to childhood trauma "Every 'yes' cultivates a stronger relationship with pain… You must climb out of a pit to reach emotionally stable ground." How adversity produced resilience, not fragility Connecting personal trauma to compassion in ministry among the unhoused How proximity to suffering forms the capacity for empathy and love Faith, identity, and calling Connecting resilience and faith: "I believe my being was intricately woven together by God." Psalm 139 and seeing himself as "fearfully and wonderfully made" Jesus's life as a model of proximity and compassionate visibility—"Jesus saw." The church as a community of affirmation and blessing How words spoken over others—curses or encouragement—shape identity "People don't become what you want them to become—they become what you encourage them to become." Community, visibility, and flourishing "You can't love your neighbor if you're not concerned about the neighborhood that produces your neighbor." Warns of a "compassion deficit" and urges the rebuilding of community communication Seeds and environments: people cannot flourish where conditions are hostile The need for better care for impoverished environments that stunt potential Community as the soil of hope—"People find hope and possibility in community." Lester's mother's resilience and faith—earning her own doctorate while raising two children "I am a product of her never giving up." The generational power of education and faith as liberation Hope, words, and the power of blessing Transformative and timely sentences: encouraging words of seeds or yeast—small yet life-altering How to speak life, not curses, over others "Each sentence spoken can become a seed of hope—or a curse that crushes it." Mentorship, community affirmation, and divine proximity as instruments of healing Interrogating falsehoods: "God is not the source of cursing." A call to faith-rooted compassion, proximity, and collective responsibility. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

How can we address the problem of violence against the poor? International Justice Mission exists to answer this question by protecting and rescuing victims, bringing criminals to justice, restoring survivors to safety and strength, and helping local law enforcement build a safe future that lasts. In this episode, International Justice Mission's founder and CEO, Gary Haugen, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on almost three decades of IJM's fight against violence and slavery worldwide—and the spiritual formation that sustains it. Haugen shares the origins of IJM in response to systemic violence against the poor, the evolution from individual rescues to transforming justice systems, and the remarkable rise of survivor leaders transforming their own nations. Together they reflect on courage, joy, and faith amid immense risk—bearing witness to God's power to bring justice and healing through ordinary people. Episode Highlights "Protecting the poor from violence is God's weight, but it's our work, and we're gonna seek to do it Jesus's way." "In this era, I just think what the world is aching to see is the followers of Jesus who have a incandescent freedom from fear and a life-giving joy." "Most of this violence will go away if government does just even a decent job of enforcing the law." "Our first commitment is to help each other become more like Jesus—and from that strength, to do justice." "The greatest miracle of IJM is not only the results—it's the freedom from fear and the joy with which they've done it." "God saw them in their darkness, and they now testify to the goodness of an almighty God who loved them." Helpful Links and Resources International Justice Mission – https://www.ijm.org Gary Haugen, The Locust Effect: Why the End of Poverty Requires the End of Violence – https://www.amazon.com/Locust-Effect-Poverty-Requires-Violence/dp/0199937877 Gary Haugen, Just Courage: God's Great Expedition for the Restless Christian – https://www.amazon.com/Just-Courage-Expedition-Restless-Christian-ebook/dp/B001PSEQR4 Riverside Church Sermon by Martin Luther King Jr., "Beyond Vietnam" — https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/encyclopedia/beyond-vietnam William Lloyd Garrison biography – https://www.britannica.com/biography/William-Lloyd-Garrison Rwanda Genocide Investigation (UN Historical Overview) – https://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/rwanda About Gary Haugen Gary Haugen is the founder and CEO of International Justice Mission (IJM), the world's largest international anti-slavery organization. Before founding IJM in 1997, he served as the director of the United Nations' investigation into the Rwandan genocide and previously worked at the US Department of Justice, focusing on police misconduct. A graduate of Harvard University and the University of Chicago Law School, Haugen has dedicated his life to ending violence against the poor and mobilizing the global church for justice. Show Notes The founding of IJM in 1997 as a Christian response to violence against the poor Gary Haugen's formative experience directing the UN's genocide investigation in Rwanda Realization that hunger and disease were being addressed—but violence was not Early cases in the Philippines, South Asia, and Peru exposing police-run brothels and child slavery IJM 1.0: rescuing individuals from slavery and abuse, case by case IJM 2.0: strengthening local justice systems to prevent violence before it happens Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Jericho Road" as a model for systemic transformation Formation of small multidisciplinary teams—lawyers, investigators, social workers IJM's evolution from rescue operations to building sustainable justice infrastructure Twenty-year celebration: Liberate conference and the global IJM staff retreat IJM's culture of spiritual formation: daily solitude, prayer, and community rhythms A Christian order of justice rooted in prayer, silence, and shared joy Spiritual formation as the foundation for sustainable justice work Experiments in Cambodia, the Philippines, and South Asia reducing violence by up to 85 percent Replication of IJM's model across 46 regions to protect 500 million vulnerable people Goal by 2030: one million freed from slavery, 300 million living under protection Empowering survivor leaders: from victims to advocates and elected officials Stories of transformation like Pama in South Asia leading the Release Bonded Laborers Association The Kenyan case of Willie Kimani—murdered IJM lawyer whose legacy reformed police accountability IJM's resilience: pursuing justice for six years until conviction of perpetrators Theological grounding: justice as God's work, pursued in Jesus's way Haugen on resilience: "It's a marathon, not a sprint" Joy and freedom from fear as hallmarks of IJM's culture How IJM balances global crisis fatigue with focused mission clarity Future challenges: technology-driven oppression—live-stream child abuse and forced scamming Global body of Christ as the essential network for courage and joy Sustainability and local leadership as the future of global justice movements Spiritual communities as the seedbed for future justice leaders Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What is the theological meaning of American history? In this episode, American church historian Grant Wacker joins Mark Labberton to explore the theological dimensions of American history, the legacy of Billy Graham, and the evolving face of evangelicalism. Wacker reflects on his Pentecostal upbringing, his formation as a historian, and his conviction that faith and scholarship must speak honestly to one another. Together they trace how religion has both shaped and distorted American life—from the enduring wound of slavery to the reformist spirit woven through its history. Wacker, now in his eighties, offers his perspective on evangelicalism's past, present, and global future. Episode Highlights "Religion has always been at the forefront of rationalizing and making enslavement seem perfectly normal—perfectly natural. It's just the order of things." "Many of the very finest religious historians are not believers—and they do superb work in understanding where religion lies." "I don't think there is Christian nationalism out there. What there is is that there is nationalism that draws on Christian categories to legitimate itself." "I don't think what we're looking at is a religious movement. We're looking at a political movement that uses religious categories." "We should write about others the way we wish they would write about us." "You Americans are always asking the Holy Spirit to bring revival. What you ought to be doing is asking the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the revival that is already flourishing." Helpful Links and Resources America's Pastor: Billy Graham and the Shaping of a Nation by Grant Wacker — https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Pastor-Graham-Shaping-Nation/dp/0674052188 Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture by Grant Wacker — https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Below-Pentecostals-American-Culture/dp/0674011287 One Soul at a Time: The Story of Billy Graham by Grant Wacker — https://www.amazon.com/One-Soul-Time-Religious-Biography/dp/0802885500/ Mark Noll's The Civil War as a Theological Crisis — https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Crisis-Steven-Janice-Lectures/dp/1469621819 Religion in American Life: A Short History — ****https://www.amazon.com/Religion-American-Life-Short-History/dp/0199832692/ About Grant Wacker Grant Wacker is the Gilbert T. Rowe Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Christian History at Duke Divinity School. A leading scholar of American religious history, he is the author of numerous books including Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture and America's Pastor: Billy Graham and the Shaping of a Nation. His research has helped shape modern understanding of American evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, and the intersection of faith and culture. Show Notes Wacker's path to the study of history through mentorship at Harvard Divinity School and a fascination with theology's relationship to historical reality He distinguishes between observing "religion operating in history" and perceiving "the divine hand," emphasizing the tension between secular and theological approaches to the past. Four major contexts that define the American story: geography, capitalism, immigration, and race Eleven domains where the power of religion—and possibly divine influence—can be seen, from colonization and enslavement to revivalism and reform. "We are a people of plenty—prosperous partly because of the accident of geography." Reformed and Wesleyan theology as twin engines shaping the nation's moral and social imagination. Humility as "at the heart of Reformed theology: we don't run our lives; something else is running the show." Wesleyan theology, by contrast, stresses human enablement and responsibility: "If we are able to do it, we are responsible for doing it." Catholic contributions to the American story, especially the richness of liturgy and the continuity of two thousand years of history Reflections on racial sin as a "permanent wound," calling religion both complicit in and necessary for confronting slavery's legacy Mark Noll's The Civil War as a Theological Crisis, highlighting how both sides invoked Scripture without self-awareness or self-critique "Religion has always been implicated in making enslavement seem natural—as natural as breathing." Describes evangelicalism's deep roots in pietism and revivalism, its mainstream dominance by the late nineteenth century, and its later fragmentation. "Evangelicalism became the main line—it was the standard way Protestantism operated." Outlines the modern trifurcation: fundamentalists, liberals, and a centrist evangelical river that remains influential. "Christian nationalism" is largely a political, not religious, phenomenon: nationalism using Christian categories to legitimize itself. "Religion is rarely an independent variable in determining how people vote." Richard Bushman (paraphrase): Have we written about [the subjects of academic history] as fairly and honestly as we can, or have we distorted their story in order to make ourselves look good? A call for fairness in historical judgment: "Write about them the way you wish they would write about you." Prediction: Evangelicalism's future lies "south of the equator"—in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. Quotes a Jesuit: "Americans keep asking for revival; they should ask to see the revival that's already happening." On Christian nationalism: "The question is not whether religion and politics collude—they always have—but whether we can be self-conscious and humble about it." Identifies power, prosperity, and digital speed as the toxic combination shaping contemporary polarization. "Speed is a narcotic for humans—we want to be connected now." Reflects on Billy Graham's unifying role and his progressive evolution on race and nuclear disarmament: "He became increasingly moderate, increasingly inclusive." Notes Graham's three conversions—to Christ, to racial justice, and to peace. "The United States and the Soviet Union are like two little boys in a bathtub filled with gasoline, playing with matches." On teaching and legacy: "My students are earnest—they want to do well for the world they live in." "Whatever good has come—it's a gift, not earned." Humility, humor, and grace as rare marks of faith and scholarship integrated Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"Migration is grace," says UCLA professor Robert Chao Romero, author of Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity. In this episode, he joins Mark Labberton to discuss the immigration crisis through stories from Southern California, theology of migration, and the challenge of Christian nationalism for the American response to the immigration crisis we face. Romero narrates heartbreaking accounts of ICE raids, racial profiling, and dehumanization, while also offering hope rooted in scripture and the early church. He points out the "Xenodochias" of the ancient and medieval church that cared for migrants. And he shows how biblical narratives—from Abraham to Jesus—reveal God's mercy in migration. Romero calls Christians to see the image of God in migrants, resist the "Latino threat narrative," and reclaim the church's historic role in welcoming the stranger. Episode Highlights "Migration is grace. … You wouldn't have a Bible without migration." "Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders, and he rose to new life among outsiders." "The gospel is an outward pushing invitation… it is the pushing out actually into the far and remote places of suffering in need." "This level of targeting of the Latino community has not happened since 1954 and Operation Wetback." "We think that crossing the US border is like crossing the Jordan into the promised land, and we're baptized into the Yankee Doodle song." Helpful Links and Resources Brown Church by Robert Chao Romero UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies Fuller Seminary's Centro Latino CLUE: Clergy and Laity United for Economic Justice World Relief About Robert Chao Romero Robert Chao Romero is an associate professor in the UCLA César E. Chávez Department of Chicana/o and Central American Studies and in the Asian American Studies Department. With a background in law and history, his research and teaching explore the intersections of race, immigration, faith, and justice. He is the author of Brown Church: Five Centuries of Latina/o Social Justice, Theology, and Identity (IVP Academic), which chronicles the long history of Latino Christian social justice movements. Romero is also an ordained pastor, active in local church ministry and theological reflection on immigration, Christian nationalism, and the global church. Show Notes Immigration Crisis and ICE Raids Student testimonies of fear and trauma at UCLA during immigration crackdowns Stories of ICE targeting bus stops, car washes, and Home Depots in Southern California Latino citizens, veterans, and even high school students detained despite legal status A man fleeing ICE was killed in traffic, sparking vigils and protests Historical Parallels and Christian Nationalism Comparison to Operation Wetback of 1954, when over one million were deported Escalating racial profiling, reinforced by Supreme Court decisions "Latino Threat Narrative" portrays Latinos as criminals and unwilling to assimilate Christian nationalism merges citizenship and faith, echoing "manifest destiny" Theology of Migration and Outsiders Migration as grace: God intervenes with compassion in nearly every biblical migration story "We live alongside the world. We don't belong to the world." " Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders, and he rose to new life among outsiders." (Jorge Lara-Braud) Jesus as an asylum seeker in Egypt; Ruth and Joseph as biblical migrants Early church created "xenodochias"—ancient and medieval social service centers for immigrants and the poor Outsider theology: Christians as strangers and aliens, called to care for outsiders "Jesus lived and died as an outsider in solidarity with all outsiders." Policy Challenges and Misconceptions Millions of mixed-status households trapped by the "10-year bar" in immigration law Asylum seekers legally present cases at the border under U.S. law Refugees undergo extensive vetting, often over decades Common myths about immigrants as "illegal" are contradicted by law and history Faith, Empathy, and the Church Empathy as central to Christian response, counter to narratives of fear and scarcity Latino pastors passing on both the gospel and nationalism from missionary influence The church historically provided refugee care before the UN Refugee Agency existed Worship with immigrant congregations as a source of hope and resilience Orthodox theology: worship joins heaven and earth, every tribe and nation before the Lamb Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.