Conversing with Mark Labberton

“More of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” (Myal Green, from the episode) Myal Greene (president and CEO of World Relief) joins host Mark Labberton to discuss the global humanitarian crises, refugee resettlement, and the church’s responsibility to respond with courage and compassion. From Rwanda's post-genocide reconciliation following 1994 to the 2025 dismantling of humanitarian aid and refugee programs in the US, Greene shares how his personal faith journey fuels his leadership amid historic humanitarian upheaval. Rooted in Scripture and the global moral witness of the church, Greene challenges listeners to imagine a more faithful Christian response to suffering—one that refuses to turn away from the world’s most vulnerable. Despite the current political polarization and rising fragility of moral consensus, Greene calls on the church to step into its biblical role: speaking truth to power, welcoming the stranger, standing with the oppressed, and embodying the love of Christ in tangible, courageous ways. Episode Highlights “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” “To truly be a follower of Christ, you can't be completely for a politician or completely for a political party.” “What we’ve seen is that more of the church is committed to their immigrant neighbours than the media or politicians would like the public to believe.” “The challenge for pastors is: How do I talk about this issue without losing my job or splitting my congregation?” “If we’re failing to define our neighbour expansively—as Christ did—we're always going to get it wrong.” Helpful Links and Resources World Relief Open Doors World Watch List 2025 2024 Lifeway Research on Evangelicals & Immigration PEPFAR Program – US Department of State National Association of Evangelicals Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers About Myal Greene Myal Greene has a deep desire to see churches worldwide equipped, empowered, and engaged in meeting the needs of vulnerable families in their communities. In 2021, he became president and CEO after serving for fourteen years with the organization. While living in Rwanda for eight years, he developed World Relief’s innovative church-based programming model that is currently used in nine countries. He also spent six years in leadership roles within the international programs division. He has previous experience working with the US government. He holds a BS in finance from Lehigh University and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary in global leadership. He and his wife Sharon have three children. Show Notes Myal Greene’s call to faith-rooted leadership in alleviating poverty Greene’s path from Capitol Hill to World Relief, shaped by his conversion in his twenties and a deepening conviction about God’s heart for the poor “God was working in me and instilling a deep understanding of his heart for the poor.” Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger, by Ron Sider Good News About Injustice, by Gary Haugen Walking with the Poor, by Bryant Myers Psalm 31:7–8: “I’ll be glad and rejoice for you have seen my troubles and you’ve seen the affliction of my soul, but you’ve not turned me over to the enemy. You’ve set me in a safe place.” “ Not only will God transform your life, but what it means to actually have experienced that and to feel that and to make that a very real personal experience.” 2007 in Rwanda Rwanda’s one-hundred-day memorial period for the 1994 genocide “The effects of the genocide were always there. You wouldn’t be able to see it, but it was always there.” Gacaca courts (system of transitional justice to handle the numerous legal cases following the 1994 genocide). “People would come and talk about what happened. … The attempts at apology, the attempts at reconciliation were powerful.” ”There are so many stories from Rwanda of true reconciliation where people have forgiven the people who’ve killed their family members or have forgiven people who’ve done terrible things to them.” ”How did the Gachacha courts see an interweaving or not of Christian faith in the process of the acts of forgiveness?” The church’s role: “The hard part and the amazing part of Rwanda is that reconciliation is deeply connected to individual cases.” “Inherently, reconciliation of people who have done the worst things imaginable to you is not a human thing.” World Relief's Legacy & Mission Founded in 1944 at Park Street Church, Boston, in response to World War II European displacement. “Feeding 180,000 people a day in Korea during the Korean War.” “We boldly engage the world’s greatest crises in partnership with the church.” The global displacement crisis Over 122 million forcibly displaced people worldwide—up from under 40 million in 2007 (a fourfold increase) “A handful of the most fragile nations of the world are experiencing extreme violence, fragility, rising poverty, the effects of climate change, and people are being forced to flee and put into d desperate situations.” “The generosity of the country is not being seen at a time when people in crisis face the greatest need.” World Relief is “one of ten refugee resettlement agencies, and we have been a refugee resettlement agency partnering with the US government since 1980 to do the work of welcoming refugees who come to this country. And we’ve partnered with every presidential administration since Jimmy Carter to do this work and have, have done so proudly.” Trump’s immigration and refugee resettlement policies Refugee resettlement has been halted since January 20, 2025—an estimated one thousand people per month left unwelcomed “At a time when people experiencing crisis are facing the greatest need, the generosity of the country is not being seen.” 120,000 refugees were welcomed in 2024. “We expected around 12,000” in 2025. “Should Christian organizations receive federal funding?” Cuts to federal humanitarian funding USAID interruptions directly affect food, health, and medical services in fragile states like Sudan, Haiti, and DRC. On PEPFAR: HIV-AIDS specific program established by George W. Bush PEPFAR: “25 million lives have been saved … now it’s among the casualties.” “Have these [federal cuts to humanitarian aid] increased philanthropic giving or has philanthropic giving dropped almost as a mirror of the government policy change?” Church response and misconceptions How should we manage uncertainty? When to use one’s voice to speak truth to power? “Polling shows evangelicals overwhelmingly support refugee resettlement—even Trump voters.” “Over 70 percent of evangelicals believe the US has a moral responsibility to welcome refugees to this country. Sixty-eight percent of of evangelicals voted for Trump agree with that statement as well.” Lifeway Research found only 9 percent of evangelicals cite the Bible or their pastor as their main source on immigration. “It would sit uncomfortably to any pastor if that were true about any other major issue.” “Pastors find themselves in this difficult place where they're trying to figure out, ‘How do I talk about this issue without losing my job and splitting my congregation?’” ”The dissonance between the way the press represents evangelical opinions about immigration” “Whether the church’s voice has enough authority to be able to actually affect people’s real time decisions about how they live in the world” “To be a truly a follower of Christ, you can’t be completely for a politician or completely for a political party because then you put that ahead of your faith in Christ.” “You have to be able to have that freedom to disagree with the leader or the party.” “A dog with a bone in his mouth can't bark. … I think that that's where we find ourself as a church right now. We want certain victories through political means, and we're willing to sacrifice our moral authority in order to get those. And I think that that's, that's a very dangerous place to be in as a church.” How Lifeway Research approaches their understanding of “evangelical Christian” “What is the authority of the church, and how is it exercising or failing to exercise its voice right now?” Hope for a compassionate church “The real movement happens when the church unites and uses its voice.” “One in twelve Christians in America will either be deported or live with someone who is subject to deportation.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What do you do when you don’t know what to do? Angela Williams Gorrell joins Mark Labberton to discuss her latest book, Braving Difficult Decisions. With poignant storytelling and theological depth, Gorrell shares how this book was born out of personal crucibles and a yearning to make sense of liminal, paralyzing spaces we all encounter—individually and communally. Together they explore how discernment is not just about decision-making but also about cultivating a life of wisdom, attentiveness, and spiritual depth. Rooted in Christian tradition yet capacious across communities and contexts, Gorrell invites listeners to slow down, ask deeper questions, and consider the spiritual, emotional, and communal terrain that shapes every meaningful decision. Episode Highlights “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “This journey is about an inward journey that says, how do I look at the state of my own soul?” “Sometimes good decisions don’t feel good.” “What if the best idea isn’t the good idea? And what if the data can’t tell us that?” “Lady Wisdom invites us to dine—to sit at a table with God and others, and not rush the meal.” Helpful Links and Resources Braving Difficult Decisions, by Angela Williams Gorrell The Gravity of Joy, by Angela Williams Gorrell Life Worth Living course at Yale www.angelagorrell.com @angelagorrell on Instagram Show Notes The “liminal space” of facing a difficult decision, arriving at a crossroads Defining discernment as “a practice, not a single moment of choice” The book stems from her decision to leave a tenured-track faculty position, and a painful personal choice about marriage Perpetua and Felicity—early Christian martyrs Individual discernment and soul work Life Worth Living at Yale “Can I be suffering and my life still be good?” The deeply heartbreaking experience of grappling with the question of divorce “I really struggled to find a book that was like, you can be deeply Christian, deeply spiritual, and make this very difficult choice.” “You have to put them in your own heart and soul. You have to grapple with these ideas, and then you write them.” Should we avoid difficult decisions? Discerning, then acting “To not make a decision is to make one as well.” “I wanted to write a book that spoke to that liminal space where we feel paralyzed.” “Good decisions don’t always feel good—they might still break your heart” Discusses difference between chronic pain and acute pain in decision-making Discernment helps identify not just what is “right,” but what leads toward peace Michaela O’Donnell and chronic pain Discernment is about “looking at the state of your own soul and becoming a steward of it” “This story that God is nurturing in the world—that story doesn’t hinge on like this decision in your life.” Self-examination, and feeling alone in the decision Community-based decision-making “There are all these false binaries.” “What baggage do you have from the past? And how do you make sure that you're not seeing the present moment through the past?” Being as gracious as possible “ What is a way that we can create space to really hear from God?—to hear from each other, and to move forward in a way that we're doing change together and not to each other.” “They need to figure out something together that matters deeply.” The book offers a pathway for congregations and organizations discerning together “How do we do change with people?” Encourages communities to take time, name past wounds, and define who makes decisions Identifies the importance of setting clear expectations, timelines, and spiritual framing “Listening to everyone takes time, but it leads to deeper collective ownership.” Invites communities to ask: What values do we want to embody in this moment? “Sometimes the most valuable part of the process is the slowness.” Wisdom, complexity, and culture Decision-making in our polarized society must account for nuance, empathy, and complexity “What if the data tells us one thing, but the Spirit tells us something else?” Resist “data-driven” decisions as totalizing; discernment includes emotion, history, and spirituality. “Sometimes good decisions don't feel good, you know? Sometimes a life worth living is not about pursuing happiness.” “Lady Wisdom invites us to come and to dine at her house and to sit at a table together.” Names systemic fatigue: “Organizations optimize while their people starve.” Decision-making is affected by race, gender, trauma, context—“there is no one-size-fits-all path” Discernment as a practice, not a moment Braving Difficult Decisions includes exercises and frameworks, such as the “iceberg model” “Most big questions are like an iceberg. There’s all this ice beneath the surface that you don't see. That’s really the stuff that people are grappling with.” Encourages ongoing wisdom practices: surrender, self-reflection, value-alignment The book is not just a guide for one hard moment, but a long-term companion Ideal for pastors, therapists, educators, spiritual directors, and leaders About Angela Williams Gorrell Rev. Dr. Angela Williams Gorrell is an author, speaker, and consultant. Gorrell speaks and writes about finding the life worth living, joy, meaning, and purpose, and the intersection of spiritual and mental health. She is the author of Always On, The Gravity of Joy, and Braving Difficult Decisions: What to Do When You Don’t Know What to Do. Angela’s research has been highlighted in media sources such as the New York Times, the Washington Post, and NPR. Gorrell has taught at several schools including Yale University and Baylor University. She has provided thought leadership and consulting for numerous organizations including the US Army and the NBA. You can find her at her website www.angelagorrell.com or on instagram @angelagorrell. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Mental, emotional, and spiritual healing requires more than clinical technique—it demands sacrificial empathy, institutional trust, and a profound affirmation of the image of God in every human being. In this episode, clinical psychologist and Pine Rest CEO Mark Eastburg joins Mark Labberton to discuss the rising need for mental health care—especially for children, adolescents, and those recovering from severe trauma. Eastburg offers insights about the post-pandemic mental health landscape; psychological and emotional resilience; trauma-informed therapy; deep listening; and the theological, moral, and social commitments that drive Eastburg’s approach to mental and spiritual health. They also discuss the systemic injustice underlying many mental health disparities, inviting us to see mental health care as a vital form of justice work rooted in compassion, dignity, and Christian witness. Episode Highlights “We’re in the healing moments business. That’s what we do … and I think those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God—just like atoms are the building blocks of the material world.” “We’re in the healing moments business. … Those healing moments are the building blocks of the kingdom of God.” “Mental health work is justice work … especially when we’re helping people who’ve been victims of injustice get back into community.” “If you just react to people’s symptoms, you’ll get more symptoms. But if you can see the beautiful human being underneath, you’ll see more of that.” “A Christian approach to therapy starts with the belief that every person is made in the image of God—and they are someone’s favourite brother or sister.” “Jesus’s care for the outsider, for the downtrodden, the excluded—that has to define what we mean when we say we express the healing ministry of Christ.” About Mark Eastburg Mark Eastburg, PhD, is president and chief executive officer of Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services, one of the five largest free-standing behavioural health organizations in the United States. With a doctorate in clinical psychology from Fuller Theological Seminary, Eastburg has served in both clinical and leadership roles at Pine Rest for over three decades. He is a passionate advocate for trauma-informed care, access to mental health services, and a faith-integrated approach to healing grounded in human dignity and Christian compassion. Helpful Links and Resources Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services American Rescue Plan Show Notes Mental Health Landscape post-Covid Surge in mental health needs for children and adolescents, especially after pandemic lockdowns Dramatic increase in psychiatric crises among youth: anxiety, self-harm, aggression Tele-therapy rose during Covid, but adolescents strongly prefer in-person care “The post-Covid world—everything seems to have become more intense.” The symptoms of the adolescent mental health crisis Rise in social media use and marijuana legalization amplifying symptoms Anxiety, substance abuse “We are really shaped and developed by practices.” The experience of children in foster care Trauma-informed care essential for children with abuse and neglect histories Empathy requires the therapist to engage in “sacrificial vulnerability” Human mutual vulnerability—”The therapist, to express such empathy, has to themselves be prepared to manifest their own vulnerability to the person who has their own underlying vulnerabilities.” Sage advice for therapists: “If you just react to people symptoms, you’re going to get more symptoms. But if you could look past the symptoms and see what he liked to call ‘the beautiful human being underneath everybody,’ anyone that you interact with, you'll see more of that.” Sacrificial empathy Working toward healing moments—the building blocks for the kingdom of God Christian psychotherapy: “the ability to look at people as made in God’s image.” Mental illness is another form of marginalization and exclusion “People are more than a set of symptoms to be treated.” Managing a crisis versus seeing a person How Pine Rest approaches mental health care Pine Rest’s new $100 million pediatric behavioural health center in Michigan “Instead of waiting months for care, kids can just walk in and we’ll sort it out.” New specialty clinics for autism, depression, eating disorders, and anxiety The universality of how mental health touches our lives Who sustains mental health care financially? What stokes a readiness for empathy? Deeper friendships and safe relationships of belonging as the foundation for mental health Stories of youth overcoming institutionalization and abuse through care “When a therapist sees the image of God, not just the behaviour, healing begins.” Cyprian of Carthage: “Let us be philosophers not in words, but in deeds.” “We often misperceive one another and then we misname one another and then we act in relationship to that person with the wrong name and the wrong perception.” Empathy, trauma, and Christian therapy “Our actions, our words can re-traumatize if we’re not approaching with care.” Connection between sacred empathy and human flourishing “You can’t manage people like machines—you have to wish for their flourishing.” The church, community, and mental health The role of church and community institutions in fostering resilience “You can’t train enough therapists to solve the crisis—we have to go upstream.” Stories of church communities embracing those with mental illness “Belonging precedes healing. If someone feels cared for, they’re more likely to show empathy.” Global suffering, Western understanding of “avoiding suffering,” and the search for meaning Contrast between global Christians and Western assumptions about suffering “While I think our work here at Pine Rest Mental Health—we're here to relieve suffering—there is suffering that is full of meaning and full of lessons to teach.” Christian healing values clashing with other predominant Western medical approaches “Suffering doesn’t equal God’s abandonment—it’s often where God meets us.” Concerns about over-medicalizing suffering and ignoring its spiritual richness Lessons from early Christian health-care pioneers—“the reckless ones” who ran toward the sick “There is suffering full of meaning and lessons that Western models tend to miss.” Justice, dignity, and the Christian vocation to empathic care “Mental health care is justice work—especially for those traumatized or left out.” “People suffering, struggling with mental illness are often the victims of injustices.” The practice of psychotherapy and mental health care as pursuing social justice Connections between structural injustice and mental illness Biblical vision of justice includes care for those seen as defective or excluded Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? And what does it have to do with conservative political power in the United States and abroad? Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell join Mark Labberton for a deep dive into the emergence and impact of the New Apostolic Reformation—a loosely affiliated global network blending Pentecostal Christian spirituality, charismatic authority, and political ambition. With their combined pastoral experience and scholarly expertise, Payne and Maskell chart the historical, theological, and sociopolitical roots of this Pentecostal movement—from Azusa Street and Latter Rain revivals to modern dominion theology and global evangelicalism. They distinguish the New Apostolic Reformation from the broader Pentecostal and charismatic traditions, and explore the popular appeal, theological complexity, and political volatility of the New Apostolic Reformation. Episode Highlights “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” “At no point in time in the history of these United States … have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” “You can be super nationalistic in Guatemala, in Brazil, in India, and in the United States. … It is a portable form of nationalism.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” “Charismatics and Pentecostals, unlike other forms of American Protestantism … do not have a theological value for democracy.” Main Themes Pentecostalism’s history and global influence Charismatic Christianity versus Pentecostalism Defining and explaining the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) C. Peter Wagner, Lance Hall, and Seven Mountain Mandate Dominion theology, Christian nationalism, and the religious Right Pentecostals and Trump politics Zionism in charismatic theology Vineyard movement, worship music, and intimacy with God Linked Media References About Vineyard USA God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne The New Apostolic Churches by C. Peter Wagner This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti Atlantic Article: “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows” by Stephanie McCrummen Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation, by Joel Looper Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity, by Joel Looper Show Notes Leah Payne defines Pentecostalism as “a form of American revivalism” William J. Seymour Marked by interracial desegregated worship and spiritual “fireworks” like tongues and prophecy Mystical experiences of God Desegregation and physically touching one another in acts of miraculous healing The Azusa Street Revival (1906) identified as a global catalyst for Assemblies of God denomination There is no founding theological figure, unlike Luther or Calvin Caleb Maskell emphasizes Pentecostalism’s roots in “a founding set of experiences,” not a founding theological figure “Limits to what makes a church” Lack of ecclesiological clarity leaves Pentecostalism open to both renewal and fragmentation Leah highlights Pentecostalism as “a shared experience … a shared series of practices.” “Holy Rollers” and being “slain in the Spirit” “A different way of knowing” “Christians are made through an encounter with Jesus.” The global “charismatic movement” and how it has had cross-denominational Influence “Charismatic” was a mid-twentieth-century term for Spirit-led practices arising within mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic traditions Charismatic means “gifted” or “being given gifts” “‘Charismatic’ has typically been a more inclusive word than ‘Pentecostal.’” Emphasis on personal spiritual gifts and intimate worship styles “They are not respecters of institutions.” Figures like Oral Roberts and Amy Semple McPherson were “too big” for denominational constraints “Too-bigness” as driven by both an over-inflated ego and spiritual mysticism Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world’s deep hunger meet.” Spellbound, by Molly Worthen (see Conversing episode 212) What are the origins and key ideas of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? New Apostolic Reformation: “a form of institutionalized charismatic identity that builds on grassroots consensus.” “NAR” coined by C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary in the 1990s Wagner promoted post-denominationalism and “reality-based” church governance centred on individual charismatic gifts Emerged from a “larger soup” of charismatic ideas—often practiced before being systematized. Closely tied to the “Seven Mountain Mandate”: that Christians should influence key societal sectors—family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government The role of dominion theology and political alignment “The convergence of egos, the convergence of ethos … is a natural thing to see emerging.” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance.” Payne sees dominionism as a Pentecostal-flavoured version of a broader conservative political strategy. “Charismatics and Pentecostals are everywhere … so we should expect them on the far right.” Many deny the NAR label even as they operate in its mode. ”When Bob Dylan’s in your church, suddenly your church is relevant, whether you like it or not.” Defining “Dominionism” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance. Cultural relevance says church should fit—not prophetically, but should fit all but seamlessly—into modes of culture that people are already in.” What are the “Seven Mountains of Culture”?  Family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government—”the world would go better if Christians were in charge of each of those arenas.” “At no point in time in the history of these United States and the history of European settlers in the new world have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” Trump, Zionism, and global Pentecostal nationalism Christian nationalism versus religious Right “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy. … They think the nation of Israel is the nation of all nations.” “Isn’t this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” Anti-institutional and anti-structural How Trump seeks power and ego affirmation Christian theocratic rule? ”It may simply be a part of what it is to be a Christian is to say, at some level, within the spheres that I’m given authority in, I ought to have the right kind of influence, whatever it is.” “ I think what’s scary about the moment that we’re in right now is in fact the chaos.” A book about Donald Trump—God's Chaos Candidate, by Lance Wall ”The beliefs in divine prophecy are so widespread that they transcend partisanship.” Black Pentecostalism: immune to the charms of Trump and populist conservatives Trump’s Zionist overtures strategically captured charismatic loyalty The rise of global Pentecostal nationalism in countries like India, Brazil, and Guatemala parallels US patterns. “They don’t actually care long-term about American democracy.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” Prosperity gospel Dominionism and the Roman Catholic “doctrine of discovery” The gospel of Christ as “sorting power” “It is a portable form of nationalism.” Concerns about power, order, and eschatology Mark Labberton reflects on Fuller Seminary’s controversial role in NAR’s intellectual development. Payne critiques the equation of widespread Pentecostal practices with far-right dominionism. “What’s scary … is the chaos. And a number of people associated with NAR have celebrated that.” NAR theology often prioritizes divine chaos over institutional order. Warnings against super-biblical apostolic authority and spiritual authoritarianism. Pentecostalism beyond politics “There’s a vivid essentialism—make everything great and all the nations will gather.” Vineyard worship as a counterweight to dominionism—emphasizing intimacy and mystical union with Christ. “That emphasis on Jesus as a friend … is a really beautiful image of God.” Vineyard music helped export a gentle, intimate charismatic spirituality. About Leah Payne Leah Payne is associate professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and a 2023–2024 public fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. Payne is author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music (Oxford University Press, 2024), and co-host of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, a Public Radio Exchange (PRX) podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today. About Caleb Maskell Caleb Maskell is the associate national director of theology and education for Vineyard USA. Born in London, he immigrated with his family to New Jersey in 1986, at the age of nine. Caleb has been involved in leadership in the Vineyard movement for twenty-five years. After spending a gap year at the Toronto Airport Vineyard School of Ministry in 1995, he went to the University of Chicago to study theology, philosophy, and literature in the interdisciplinary undergraduate Fundamentals program. While there, he joined the core planting team of the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, where he served as a worship leader, a small group leader, a setter-up of chairs, and whatever else Rand Tucker asked him to do. After college, full of questions that had emerged from the beautiful collision of serious academic study and the practical realities of church planting, Caleb enrolled in the MDiv program at Yale Divinity School. For four years, he immersed himself in the study of theology, church history, and Scripture, while also leading worship and working with middle school and high school youth groups. After graduating in 2004, he worked for three years as the associate director of the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University. In 2007, along with his wife Kathy and their friends Matt and Hannah Croasmun, Caleb planted Elm City Vineyard Church in New Haven, Connecticut. That year, he also began a PhD program at Princeton University, focusing on the history of American religion, with an additional emphasis in African American studies. After moving to Manhattan for four years while Kathy went to seminary, the Maskells ended up in suburban Philadelphia, where Caleb completed his PhD while teaching regularly at Princeton Theological Seminary, and serving as the worship pastor at Blue Route Vineyard Church. Since 2010, Caleb has led the Society of Vineyard Scholars, which exists to foster and sustain a community of theological discourse in and for the Vineyard movement. Caleb is passionate about developing leaders and institutions that will help to produce a healthy, courageous, and hospitable future for the church in the twenty-first century. Caleb and Kathy now live with their two kids, Josiah and Emmanuelle, in the heart of Denver, where Kathy pastors East Denver Vineyard Church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Historian and journalist Molly Worthen explores the mysterious and potent force of charisma, and its power to shape American identity, culture, politics, and religion. She explains how storytelling, transcendence, and authority are used by America’s most charismatic leaders. Drawing on her new book, Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump, Worthen shares how charismatic authority reveals deep human desires for meaning, agency, and transcendence. The conversation explores themes of vulnerability, spiritual hunger, religious disaffiliation, and the evolving nature of belief and belonging in modern society. Worthen unpacks the often-overlooked distinction between charisma and charm or celebrity, examining the role of storytelling in cultivating authority and devotion. She also shares how researching this subject intersected with her own spiritual journey, culminating in her recent conversion to Christianity. Key Moments Molly Worthen discusses her latest book, Spellbound. Charisma: a relational, story-driven phenomenon, not mere charm or celebrity Our religious impulse persists despite declining traditional affiliation Worthen’s personal spiritual journey: from intellectual agnosticism to Christian faith while writing the book Donald Trump’s narrative charisma and religious-political appeal examined in depth Human longing for transcendence and meaning as the root of charismatic power Episode Highlights “Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” “The heart of charisma is the leader’s ability to tell a story … that does a better job at explaining the chaos and the suffering.” “We want the comfort of knowing that some force larger than us is ultimately in charge—and yet we also seek agency.” “I came to realize I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger—and that I myself had that hunger too.” “Authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty.” “We kid ourselves if we think more sources solve the mystery of charisma—reality is an asymptote we never perfectly reach.” About Molly Worthen Molly Worthen is associate professor of history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, specializing in North American religion, politics, global Christianity, and the history of ideas. She is a contributing writer for the New York Times and author of several books, including Apostles of Reason and The Man on Whom Nothing Was Lost. Her most recent book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump. Show Notes Authority—who should we listen to? Internal battles within American evangelicalism The definition of charisma and its distinction from charm, celebrity, and power Charisma: “ the allure in a leader that gives him or her the power to move a crowd that is premised on a relationship. … You need two parties at least. It’s not solely a quality of fluorescence that shines out from the individual without other people to interact with it.” The leader’s ability to tell a story that explains the audience’s experience of life Paradoxical quality: we want our decision to make a difference in our fate, but we also want some being or force larger than us to make it all okay. “ It’s not just about looking at the one who is the special anointed one, but it’s that somehow through that person, I too, or we too, see ourselves more clearly.” Special revelation and stories of experiencing God in particular ways “Capturing the ineffable” Role of charismatic leaders in American religious and political life Impact of Joseph Smith, Anne Hutchinson, JFK, and Adlai Stevenson Why institutional religion no longer captures spiritual impulse for many Americans Storytelling as the essence of charismatic authority Evolution of American individualism and the cult of authenticity How mass media, trauma, and cultural crises shape charismatic influence Coming to terms with the limits of your “source base”—”Reality is an asymptote.” “It’s that sort of transcendent storytelling ability that is the heart of charisma.” Mormonism and the charisma of Joseph Smith Leaders like JFK and Adlai Stevenson offered different models of modern charisma “So much of my book is really about the fortunes of established institutions in American culture because charismatic figures always define themselves vis-à-vis institutions.” Routinizing charisma (cf. Max Weber) “The gap or the consistency between what our subjects are, are thinking and intending consciously and what they actually do.” Intuition versus analysis—steeping in cultural milieu and operating out of personal life experiences The Puritan heretic Anne Hutchinson “Very few humans are out-and-out cynics.” Charismatic figures aren’t always attractive or eloquent—they resonate through meaning-making. “ The religious impulse is finding a place to land other than organized religion.” Protestant roots of American consciousness tied to authority and self-discovery Humanist psychology and positive thinking “The age of the gurus” Charisma and Contemporary Politics: Donald Trump Trump’s story of victimhood, self-made success, and defiance of institutions as a charismatic myth Trump’s stream-of-consciousness style perceived as authenticity by many followers. “For example, his rambling stream-of-consciousness speaking style that actually is a core to his appeal, I think, for many Trump supporters because it comes across as a kind of authenticity—as a willingness to tell it how it is and speak off the top of his head. And authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty in terms of correspondence to, you know, empirically verifiable facts.” The alignment between his narrative and the prosperity gospel ”While Donald Trump is no one's idea of an orthodox Christian, he grew up in Norman Vincent Peale's church in New York City, Marble Collegiate Church, hearing the prosperity gospel, the gospel of positive thinking.” ”I think Trump has a, has a really acute spiritual instinct for. That picture of reality one in which we can really reshape reality with our minds.” Early support from independent charismatic church networks shaped his rise. Importance of positive thinking theology (e.g., Norman Vincent Peale) in his spiritual instincts. “I suppose I was about two-thirds of the way through the rough draft of this book when I was rudely interrupted by the Holy Spirit. I have always studied Christianity as a very sympathetic and, frankly, envious outsider and never was entirely happy with my agnostic fence sitting, but also wasn't actively looking to resolve my metaphysical questions.” “ I’ve always had this conviction that humans are fundamentally religious creatures and they have this impulse to connect to a transcendent source of meaning to worship.” “I came to realize that I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger and how humans cope with it. But that I myself had had that hunger as well—that I’m not immune to that feature of the human dilemma.” “We want to be pulled into something transcendent, where we are more fully ourselves.” Praying for a mystical experience—at least being “strangely warmed” ”God had already done something to my desires—I was walking in the direction of Jesus already.” “ I always see every kind of historical problem as somehow having to do with contesting visions of human nature.” “There’s this silly misconception that Christianity is intellectually stultifying—that to become an orthodox, traditional Christian is to shut off all kinds of questions and accept a black-and-white way of thinking. And that has not been my experience.” Research project on miracles “ Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” Conversion was driven by rigorous academic inquiry into the resurrection and New Testament Experience echoed themes in the book: story, vulnerability, and being seen Her analysis: “God had already done something to my desires before the arguments convinced me.” Post-conversion excitement about theological study, healing, and miracles Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Cancer is among the most common and feared diseases in the modern world. Dr. Selwyn Vickers—president and CEO of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center—joins host Mark Labberton to discuss how precision oncology, data, and faith are transforming cancer treatment. A distinguished cancer surgeon and pancreatic cancer researcher, Vickers explains how groundbreaking advances in genomics, immunotherapy, and AI are transforming once-lethal diagnoses into survivable and even chronic conditions. Together, they explore not only the cutting-edge science of cancer care but also the spiritual, emotional, and social dimensions that affect every patient and caregiver. Resonating with themes of suffering, hope, and resurrection, this conversation offers clarity, compassion, and courage for all who are affected by cancer—from those newly diagnosed, to medical professionals, to grieving families and curious listeners. Episode Highlights “We’re getting to a point where we will, in the next five to seven years, have a much better chance to cure people—and to make pancreatic cancer a chronic illness.” “We are in what’s somewhat coined the golden age of cancer research.” “Cancer is a disease that creates an existential threat in ways no other illness does.” “If a tumour forms, it means your body’s immune system has made a social contract with the cancer.” “We changed the diagnosis in 10–12 percent of the patients who come to us—sometimes from cancer to no cancer.” “Cancer care is a team sport. And our patients often inspire us more than we help them.” Helpful Links & Resources Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center BioNTech – creators of mRNA vaccines for COVID and cancer CAR T-Cell Therapy Overview (Cancer.gov) Tim Keller on cancer and hope Emma Thompson’s Wit (HBO) BRCA1 and BRCA2 Genes and Cancer Risk MSK-IMPACT: Next-Gen Tumor Profiling About Selwyn Vickers Selwyn M. Vickers, MD, FACS, is the president and CEO of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center (MSK) and the incumbent of the Douglas A. Warner III Chair. He assumed the role on September 19, 2022. Vickers is an internationally recognized pancreatic cancer surgeon, pancreatic cancer researcher, and pioneer in health disparities research. He is a member of the National Academy of Medicine and the Johns Hopkins Society of Scholars. He has served on the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine Board of Trustees and the Johns Hopkins University Board of Trustees. Additionally, he has served as president of the Society for Surgery of the Alimentary Tract and the Southern Surgical Association. Vickers is the immediate past president of the American Surgical Association. He also continues to see patients. In 1994, he joined the faculty of the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB) as an assistant professor in the Department of Surgery, where he was later appointed to professor and the John H. Blue Chair of General Surgery. In 2006, Vickers left UAB to become the Jay Phillips Professor and Chair of the Department of Surgery at the University of Minnesota Medical School. Born in Demopolis, Alabama, Vickers grew up in Tuscaloosa and Huntsville. He earned baccalaureate and medical degrees and completed his surgical training (including a chief residency and surgical oncology fellowship) at the Johns Hopkins University. Vickers completed two postgraduate research fellowships with the National Institutes of Health and international surgical training at John Radcliffe Hospital of Oxford University, England. Vickers and his wife, Janice, who is also from Alabama, have been married since 1988. They have four children. Show Notes The ongoing threat and fear of cancer How Selwyn Vickers got into medicine Pancreatic cancer: Vickers’s expertise “We are in what’s somewhat coined the golden age of cancer research.” Sequencing the human genome “Is there a drug that might target the mutation that ended up creating your cancer?” Cancer as both a medical and existential diagnosis The revolution of precision oncology through human genome sequencing ”It takes a billion cells to have a one centimetre tumor.” Immunotherapy: checkpoint inhibition, CAR T-cell therapy, and vaccines Cellular therapy:   ”Taking a set of their normal cells and re-engineering them to actually go back and target and attack their tumors. … We’ve seen patients who had initially a 30 percent chance of survival converted to an 80 percent chance of survival.” “We know in many tumours there’s something called minimal residual disease.” “Immunizing yourself against cancer is a significant future opportunity.” Managing the power of data with AI and computational oncology Cancer-care data explosion: the role of computational oncologists Cancer vaccines: breakthrough mRNA treatment for pancreatic cancer ”Didn’t ultimately win. We had to suffer through her losing her life, but was so appreciative that she got much more than the six months she was promised.” Tumour misdiagnoses and the importance of specialized expertise Pancreatic cancer challenges: immune cloaking and late-stage detection In the past, one in four would die from the operation for removing pancreatic cancer Long-term survival Future of cancer detection: AI-based medical record analysis and blood biopsies More accurate blood tests to confirm conditions Using AI to select those who are high-risk for cancer Pastor Tim Keller died of pancreatic cancer. In the past, “your doctor … helped you learn how to die.” ”[God’s] given man the privilege to discover those things that have been hidden. And over time we've gradually uncovered huge opportunities to impact people’s lives.” The state of breast cancer research and treatment “If you get the diagnosis of breast cancer, you have a 90 percent chance to survive and beat it over a five-year period of time.” ”In general, we’re in a great state of understanding how to treat breast cancer, how to detect it early, and then have selective and targeted mechanisms to prevent it from coming back.” Prostate cancer research and treatment Theranostics: using a specific antibody to target cancer cells specifically Pediatric cancer:  ”We actually treat more children for cancer than any hospital in America now, but in general, the survival for pediatric cancers is greater than 80 percent.” Emotional, psychological, and spiritual toll of cancer: importance of psycho-oncology How Sloan Kettering developed psycho-oncology to help cancer patients with mental and spiritual health Personal story: how a cafeteria worker empowers patients through food choices “We give back to them the right to choose what they get to have on their tray.” Cancer treatment is a team sport. Wit (film, Broadway play)—actress Emma Thompson plays a cancer patient studying the work of John Donne on death Socioeconomic and racial disparities in cancer care outcomes The healing role of community, support teams, and compassionate listening The importance of listening to cancer patients who are preparing to die The spiritual courage of patients and the transformative power of faith “Our patients often help us. We see the grace with which they often handle that journey.” The inspiration behind becoming a doctor: family legacy and human impact Terminal care: the sacred responsibility of walking with patients to the end Cancer research and treatment as a Christian vocation and expression of humanity Production Credits

“Leadership is defined by listening.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton explains the essential role listening plays in leadership and successful communication.  Leaders are often known for what they’ve said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they’re working with at any given time. Here, Mark shares from his decades of leadership experience as a Presbyterian minister and seminary president. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes Relationships of trust “ Listening is as critical to the existence of leadership as it is to the partnership of leadership.” “ If we don't have listening, then the partnership that leadership requires simply can't exist.” What leadership is really about: the people you’re leading are known, served, discovered, changed, renewed Tone-deaf leaders: leaders who are out of touch If you don’t want to be out of touch or tone deaf, “enter the room listening.” “Leaders are often known for what they’ve said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they’re working with at any given time.” Mutuality of learning and listening together—adding oxygen to the room Bringing part of yourself versus bringing your whole self to a leadership relationship “ Let’s not listen to one another first critically and negatively. Let’s listen to one another with hope, with earnestness, with a genuine desire to receive their perspective and letting that actually inform how we lead.” “When I ran into people who are having difficulties with their senior leader, it’s almost always around the leader’s failure to listen. At one level or another, they are not hearing the people that they’re leading.” “A leader who doesn't listen is like a person deciding to jump off a cliff. …  The longer they don’t listen, the more they are isolated by themselves and at risk.” Leadership enriched by an understanding of each other “A shared communion of decision making” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Strong leadership is born not from control, but from authentic community and the cultivation of people and teams. Nathan Hatch, former president of Wake Forest University and esteemed historian, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the nature of transformative leadership. Drawing from his decades of experience at Notre Dame and Wake Forest—and from his new book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders—Hatch explores how leaders cultivate thriving institutions through humility, vision, and empowerment. Hatch shares his personal journey from growing up in a Presbyterian home to leading major universities, while reflecting on the comomunity, character, instincts, and freedom required for lasting institutional impact. Episode Highlights "Organizations aren't self-generating—you bet on people, not on strategy." "Organizations are best served when you have a team of like-minded people, each using their own strengths." "Leadership has to flow out of who you are authentically—you can't try to be someone else." "If you have exceptional people, it takes management of a different form—it's collaboration." "Leadership is not about control but about strength: hiring strong people is harder, but it's transformative." "People read your real meanings, not your words—authenticity is the heart of leadership." Helpful Links & Resources The Gift of Transformative Leaders, by Nathan Hatch University of Notre Dame Wake Forest University Jim Collins - Good to Great About Nathan Hatch Dr. Nathan O. Hatch is President Emeritus of Wake Forest University and one of America’s leading scholars of religion and higher education. Prior to his presidency at Wake Forest (2005–2021), Hatch served as provost at the University of Notre Dame. His groundbreaking scholarship in American religious history includes The Democratization of American Christianity, and his latest book is The Gift of Transformative Leaders. Hatch is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and continues to speak and write on leadership, higher education, and culture. Show Notes Raised in a Christian home; son of a Presbyterian minister and teacher Influenced early by history teacher and work experiences in Cabrini Green, Chicago Studied at Wheaton College, Washington University in St. Louis, and Johns Hopkins University Became an unlikely but successful historian at the University of Notre Dame Leadership philosophy shaped by early experiences with supportive professional teams and deep community and friendship How did the past come to change and create the world we live in? Transitioned from historian to administrator, balancing scholarship and administration Provost at Notre Dame: emphasized empowering faculty through development and resources President at Wake Forest: built strong leadership teams, expanded institutional vision Reflections on Father Theodore Hesburgh’s visionary leadership at Notre Dame “Organizations aren’t self-generating. … [it takes] a vision and leader.” "Leadership must be authentic; it must come out of who you are." The transformative impact of great leadership teams over hierarchical control Importance of raising institutional aspirations and empowering individuals to flourish "Hiring strong people makes the leader stronger, not weaker." Nathan Hatch’s book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders Profiles 13 leaders who exemplify commitment, character, and institution-building Focus on people-centric leadership: authenticity, humility, vision Leaders described as radiating positivity, cultivating others, and advancing institutional missions Catholic and Protestant institutional differences in faith expression Creating inclusive religious life in pluralistic academic communities Investing in character education through initiatives like Wake Forest's scholarship programs Building culture: "Noticing people, investing in them, seeing their potential." “How do we help young people live their life?” Identifying and empowering exceptional talent Embracing unconventional hiring practices Building thriving, collaborative, life-giving teams Cultivating environments where people pursue a common good Navigating faculty-administration relationships with authenticity and transparency Facing organizational financial challenges without losing people-first priorities Leadership in contexts with limited resources: raising people’s potential Authenticity and empathy are foundational to leadership Humility and commitment to the common good are non-negotiable Leaders must genuinely invest in the flourishing of others Institutions are transformed not by structures alone but by transformative people Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Nicholas Kristof (opinion columnist, the New York Times) reflects on his career of reporting from the front lines of injustice and human suffering, discussing hope, human resilience, and the urgency of responding to global injustice. An advocate for empathy-driven journalism that holds power accountable and communicates the stories of the most vulnerable, Kristof joins Mark Labberton in this episode to discuss his life’s work of reporting from the world’s most troubled regions—from Gaza to Congo, from rural Oregon to global centres of power. Known for his unsparing storytelling and deep empathy, Kristof shares the family roots and personal convictions that have shaped his lifelong pursuit of justice and hope. They also explore how despair and progress coexist, the role of faith and empathy in healing, and how local acts of courage can ripple globally. Grounded in gritty realism, but inspired by everyday heroes, Kristof invites us to resist numbness and embrace a hope that fights to make a difference. Stories from Gaza, Congo, Pakistan, and beyond Balancing heartbreak and hope in humanitarian reporting Why empathy must be cultivated and practiced The global impact of Christian activism and its complexities Episode Highlights “Side by side with the worst of humanity, you find the very best.” “We focus so much on all that is going wrong, that we leave people feeling numb and that it’s hopeless … but people don’t want to get engaged in things that are hopeless.” “Empathy is something that, like a muscle, can be nurtured.” “The worst kinds of evil and the greatest acts of courage are often just one decision apart.” “We are an amazing species—if we just get our act together.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don’t think there’s an inconsistency there.” About Nicholas Kristof Nicholas Kristof is a two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist, and is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, **where he was previously bureau chief in Hong Kong, Beijing, and Tokyo. Born, raised, and still working from his rural Oregon home, Yamhill, he is a graduate of Harvard and was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. He is the co-author, with his wife Sheryl WuDunn, of five previous books: Tightrope, A Path Appears, Half the Sky, Thunder from the East, and China Wakes. In 2024, he published a memoir, *Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life.* Books by Nicholas Kristof Tightrope A Path Appears Half the Sky Thunder from the East China Wakes Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life Helpful Resources International Justice Mission Dr. Denis Mukwege – Nobel Peace Prize PEPFAR: The U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief Tim Keller’s Final Interview with Kristof (NYT) Show Notes A voice of conscience How a global orientation for journalism developed Kristof reflects on his humble roots in Yamhill, Oregon, as the son of two immigrants “My dad was a Armenian refugee from Eastern Europe. His family had spied on the Nazis during World War II. They got caught. Some were executed by the Nazis, others were executed by the Soviet communists, and my dad was very lucky to make it out alive and was sponsored by a family in the US in 1952.” “I think that one fundamental mistake that bleeding hearts make, whether they’re bleeding hearts in journalism or in the non-profit community or in advocacy, is that we focus so much on all that is going wrong that we leave people feeling numb and feeling that it’s hopeless, so there’s no point in engaging. And there’s pretty good evidence from social-psychology experiments that people don’t want to get engaged in things that are hopeless. They want to make a difference. And so I think that we need to both acknowledge all the challenges we face but also remind people that there can be a better outcome if they put their shoulder to the wheel.” Extraordinary changes for justice and what’s going right David Brooks: “A deeply flawed country that also managed to do good in the world.” ”It just breaks my heart that kids are dying unnecessarily.” On losing PEPFAR foreign aid: “I hope that this damage can be repaired and that bleeding hearts of the left and the right can work together to try to help restore some of these initiatives.” The tragedies that followed from dismantling USAID Kristof’s book Chasing Hope “The fact is that I've seen some terrible things, and I think I may have a mild case of PTSD from, you know, seeing too much.” Nicholas Kristof on Gaza: “I don’t see Israel and Hamas as morally equivalent, but I absolutely see an Israeli child, a Palestinian child, and an American child as moral equivalents.  And we don’t treat them that way.” “What human beings share is that when terrible things happen, some people turn into psychopaths and sociopaths, and other people turn into heroes.” Cowardice and malevolent tendencies Empathy can be nurtured Children dying without anti-retroviral drugs in South Sudan Empathy Project in Canada Mass literature to inspire perspective taking Uncle Tom’s Cabin Black Beauty and animal rights/well-being Kristof’s run for Oregon governor Eastern Congo and UNICEF “A child is raped every thirty minutes in Eastern Congo.” Dr. Denis Mukwege, Nobel Peace Prize laureate treating women brutally injured by militia rape in Bukavu, a city in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. Small gestures of compassion as an empathy grower for local communities “One of the lessons I think of Congo is that violence can be and inhumanity can be terribly contagious.” Genocide in Rwanda in 1994 The global sex-trafficking crisis “We don’t have the moral authority to tell other countries to do better unless we clean up our own act.” The American sex-trafficking crisis: systemic failures such as foster care pipelines into trafficking “There are no statistics, but I think it’s plausible that a girl in foster care is more likely to emerge to be trafficked than she is to graduate from a four-year college.” American sex-trafficking practices by PornHub and X-Videos: “Their business model is monetizing kids.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don’t think there’s an inconsistency there, and I, I think we’ve just blurred that too often.” Christianity’s disappointing response to injustice Nicholas Kristof’s engagement with the activism and theology of the Christian church William Wilberforce’s anti-slavery movement in the 1780s President Bush’s establishment of PEPFAR in 2003: “This incredible program to reduce the burden of AIDS that has saved 26 million lives so far. It’s the most important program of any country in my adult lifetime in terms of saving lives.” “Evangelicals are very good in terms of tithing and donating money to good causes, but they’ve often opposed government programs  that would create opportunity and address these problems.” “Liberals are personally stingy, but much more supportive of government programs that that make a difference.” Criticizing the dismantling of global aid programs like USAID: “How can you read the Gospels and think this is good?” “I think being part of a religious community has led people to do good works together.” Christian advocacy for freedom of religion Kristof on scripture and belief: “We read the Bible and develop our religious views, and I think so often just reflects our priors rather than what the text says.” A closing example of hope: The Afghan war “We are an amazing species if we just get our act together.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Russell Moore, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today and author of 'Losing Our Religion', shares his insights on the crisis within American evangelicalism. He discusses the fragmentation of the movement and the longing for renewal amidst cultural upheaval. Moore draws parallels to historical awakenings and the dangers of merging faith with political ideology. He emphasizes the need for a return to the essence of the gospel and the importance of truth-telling in fostering spiritual growth during times of uncertainty.