Conversing with Mark Labberton

What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? And what does it have to do with conservative political power in the United States and abroad? Leah Payne and Caleb Maskell join Mark Labberton for a deep dive into the emergence and impact of the New Apostolic Reformation—a loosely affiliated global network blending Pentecostal Christian spirituality, charismatic authority, and political ambition. With their combined pastoral experience and scholarly expertise, Payne and Maskell chart the historical, theological, and sociopolitical roots of this Pentecostal movement—from Azusa Street and Latter Rain revivals to modern dominion theology and global evangelicalism. They distinguish the New Apostolic Reformation from the broader Pentecostal and charismatic traditions, and explore the popular appeal, theological complexity, and political volatility of the New Apostolic Reformation. Episode Highlights “Isn't this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” “At no point in time in the history of these United States … have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” “You can be super nationalistic in Guatemala, in Brazil, in India, and in the United States. … It is a portable form of nationalism.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” “Charismatics and Pentecostals, unlike other forms of American Protestantism … do not have a theological value for democracy.” Main Themes Pentecostalism’s history and global influence Charismatic Christianity versus Pentecostalism Defining and explaining the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) C. Peter Wagner, Lance Hall, and Seven Mountain Mandate Dominion theology, Christian nationalism, and the religious Right Pentecostals and Trump politics Zionism in charismatic theology Vineyard movement, worship music, and intimacy with God Linked Media References About Vineyard USA God Gave Rock and Roll to You: A History of Contemporary Christian Music by Leah Payne The New Apostolic Churches by C. Peter Wagner This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti Atlantic Article: “The Army of God Comes Out of the Shadows” by Stephanie McCrummen Bonhoeffer's America: A Land Without Reformation, by Joel Looper Another Gospel: Christian Nationalism and the Crisis of Evangelical Identity, by Joel Looper Show Notes Leah Payne defines Pentecostalism as “a form of American revivalism” William J. Seymour Marked by interracial desegregated worship and spiritual “fireworks” like tongues and prophecy Mystical experiences of God Desegregation and physically touching one another in acts of miraculous healing The Azusa Street Revival (1906) identified as a global catalyst for Assemblies of God denomination There is no founding theological figure, unlike Luther or Calvin Caleb Maskell emphasizes Pentecostalism’s roots in “a founding set of experiences,” not a founding theological figure “Limits to what makes a church” Lack of ecclesiological clarity leaves Pentecostalism open to both renewal and fragmentation Leah highlights Pentecostalism as “a shared experience … a shared series of practices.” “Holy Rollers” and being “slain in the Spirit” “A different way of knowing” “Christians are made through an encounter with Jesus.” The global “charismatic movement” and how it has had cross-denominational Influence “Charismatic” was a mid-twentieth-century term for Spirit-led practices arising within mainline Protestant and Roman Catholic traditions Charismatic means “gifted” or “being given gifts” “‘Charismatic’ has typically been a more inclusive word than ‘Pentecostal.’” Emphasis on personal spiritual gifts and intimate worship styles “They are not respecters of institutions.” Figures like Oral Roberts and Amy Semple McPherson were “too big” for denominational constraints “Too-bigness” as driven by both an over-inflated ego and spiritual mysticism Frederick Buechner: “The place God calls you to is the place where your deep gladness and the world’s deep hunger meet.” Spellbound, by Molly Worthen (see Conversing episode 212) What are the origins and key ideas of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)? New Apostolic Reformation: “a form of institutionalized charismatic identity that builds on grassroots consensus.” “NAR” coined by C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary in the 1990s Wagner promoted post-denominationalism and “reality-based” church governance centred on individual charismatic gifts Emerged from a “larger soup” of charismatic ideas—often practiced before being systematized. Closely tied to the “Seven Mountain Mandate”: that Christians should influence key societal sectors—family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government The role of dominion theology and political alignment “The convergence of egos, the convergence of ethos … is a natural thing to see emerging.” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance.” Payne sees dominionism as a Pentecostal-flavoured version of a broader conservative political strategy. “Charismatics and Pentecostals are everywhere … so we should expect them on the far right.” Many deny the NAR label even as they operate in its mode. ”When Bob Dylan’s in your church, suddenly your church is relevant, whether you like it or not.” Defining “Dominionism” “Dominion is really just two or three logical steps from an obsession with cultural relevance. Cultural relevance says church should fit—not prophetically, but should fit all but seamlessly—into modes of culture that people are already in.” What are the “Seven Mountains of Culture”?  Family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business, and government—”the world would go better if Christians were in charge of each of those arenas.” “At no point in time in the history of these United States and the history of European settlers in the new world have Protestants not been interested in having a great deal of influence over public life.” Trump, Zionism, and global Pentecostal nationalism Christian nationalism versus religious Right “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy. … They think the nation of Israel is the nation of all nations.” “Isn’t this just conservative political activism with tongues and prophecy and dominion?” Anti-institutional and anti-structural How Trump seeks power and ego affirmation Christian theocratic rule? ”It may simply be a part of what it is to be a Christian is to say, at some level, within the spheres that I’m given authority in, I ought to have the right kind of influence, whatever it is.” “ I think what’s scary about the moment that we’re in right now is in fact the chaos.” A book about Donald Trump—God's Chaos Candidate, by Lance Wall ”The beliefs in divine prophecy are so widespread that they transcend partisanship.” Black Pentecostalism: immune to the charms of Trump and populist conservatives Trump’s Zionist overtures strategically captured charismatic loyalty The rise of global Pentecostal nationalism in countries like India, Brazil, and Guatemala parallels US patterns. “They don’t actually care long-term about American democracy.” “They are not moved by appeals to American democracy or American exceptionalism because they have in their mind the end times and the nation of Israel.” Prosperity gospel Dominionism and the Roman Catholic “doctrine of discovery” The gospel of Christ as “sorting power” “It is a portable form of nationalism.” Concerns about power, order, and eschatology Mark Labberton reflects on Fuller Seminary’s controversial role in NAR’s intellectual development. Payne critiques the equation of widespread Pentecostal practices with far-right dominionism. “What’s scary … is the chaos. And a number of people associated with NAR have celebrated that.” NAR theology often prioritizes divine chaos over institutional order. Warnings against super-biblical apostolic authority and spiritual authoritarianism. Pentecostalism beyond politics “There’s a vivid essentialism—make everything great and all the nations will gather.” Vineyard worship as a counterweight to dominionism—emphasizing intimacy and mystical union with Christ. “That emphasis on Jesus as a friend … is a really beautiful image of God.” Vineyard music helped export a gentle, intimate charismatic spirituality. About Leah Payne Leah Payne is associate professor of American religious history at Portland Seminary and a 2023–2024 public fellow at the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI). She holds a PhD from Vanderbilt University, and her research explores the intersection of religion, politics, and popular culture. Payne is author of God Gave Rock and Roll to You: a History of Contemporary Christian Music (Oxford University Press, 2024), and co-host of Rock That Doesn’t Roll, a Public Radio Exchange (PRX) podcast about Christian rock and its listeners, and Weird Religion, a religion and pop culture podcast. Her writing and research has appeared in The Washington Post, NBC News, Religion News Service, and Christianity Today. About Caleb Maskell Caleb Maskell is the associate national director of theology and education for Vineyard USA. Born in London, he immigrated with his family to New Jersey in 1986, at the age of nine. Caleb has been involved in leadership in the Vineyard movement for twenty-five years. After spending a gap year at the Toronto Airport Vineyard School of Ministry in 1995, he went to the University of Chicago to study theology, philosophy, and literature in the interdisciplinary undergraduate Fundamentals program. While there, he joined the core planting team of the Hyde Park Vineyard Church, where he served as a worship leader, a small group leader, a setter-up of chairs, and whatever else Rand Tucker asked him to do. After college, full of questions that had emerged from the beautiful collision of serious academic study and the practical realities of church planting, Caleb enrolled in the MDiv program at Yale Divinity School. For four years, he immersed himself in the study of theology, church history, and Scripture, while also leading worship and working with middle school and high school youth groups. After graduating in 2004, he worked for three years as the associate director of the Jonathan Edwards Center at Yale University. In 2007, along with his wife Kathy and their friends Matt and Hannah Croasmun, Caleb planted Elm City Vineyard Church in New Haven, Connecticut. That year, he also began a PhD program at Princeton University, focusing on the history of American religion, with an additional emphasis in African American studies. After moving to Manhattan for four years while Kathy went to seminary, the Maskells ended up in suburban Philadelphia, where Caleb completed his PhD while teaching regularly at Princeton Theological Seminary, and serving as the worship pastor at Blue Route Vineyard Church. Since 2010, Caleb has led the Society of Vineyard Scholars, which exists to foster and sustain a community of theological discourse in and for the Vineyard movement. Caleb is passionate about developing leaders and institutions that will help to produce a healthy, courageous, and hospitable future for the church in the twenty-first century. Caleb and Kathy now live with their two kids, Josiah and Emmanuelle, in the heart of Denver, where Kathy pastors East Denver Vineyard Church. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Historian and journalist Molly Worthen explores the mysterious and potent force of charisma, and its power to shape American identity, culture, politics, and religion. She explains how storytelling, transcendence, and authority are used by America’s most charismatic leaders. Drawing on her new book, Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump, Worthen shares how charismatic authority reveals deep human desires for meaning, agency, and transcendence. The conversation explores themes of vulnerability, spiritual hunger, religious disaffiliation, and the evolving nature of belief and belonging in modern society. Worthen unpacks the often-overlooked distinction between charisma and charm or celebrity, examining the role of storytelling in cultivating authority and devotion. She also shares how researching this subject intersected with her own spiritual journey, culminating in her recent conversion to Christianity. Key Moments Molly Worthen discusses her latest book, Spellbound. Charisma: a relational, story-driven phenomenon, not mere charm or celebrity Our religious impulse persists despite declining traditional affiliation Worthen’s personal spiritual journey: from intellectual agnosticism to Christian faith while writing the book Donald Trump’s narrative charisma and religious-political appeal examined in depth Human longing for transcendence and meaning as the root of charismatic power Episode Highlights “Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” “The heart of charisma is the leader’s ability to tell a story … that does a better job at explaining the chaos and the suffering.” “We want the comfort of knowing that some force larger than us is ultimately in charge—and yet we also seek agency.” “I came to realize I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger—and that I myself had that hunger too.” “Authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty.” “We kid ourselves if we think more sources solve the mystery of charisma—reality is an asymptote we never perfectly reach.” About Molly Worthen Molly Worthen is associate professor of history at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, specializing in North American religion, politics, global Christianity, and the history of ideas. She is a contributing writer for the New York Times and author of several books, including Apostles of Reason and The Man on Whom Nothing Was Lost. Her most recent book is Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump. Show Notes Authority—who should we listen to? Internal battles within American evangelicalism The definition of charisma and its distinction from charm, celebrity, and power Charisma: “ the allure in a leader that gives him or her the power to move a crowd that is premised on a relationship. … You need two parties at least. It’s not solely a quality of fluorescence that shines out from the individual without other people to interact with it.” The leader’s ability to tell a story that explains the audience’s experience of life Paradoxical quality: we want our decision to make a difference in our fate, but we also want some being or force larger than us to make it all okay. “ It’s not just about looking at the one who is the special anointed one, but it’s that somehow through that person, I too, or we too, see ourselves more clearly.” Special revelation and stories of experiencing God in particular ways “Capturing the ineffable” Role of charismatic leaders in American religious and political life Impact of Joseph Smith, Anne Hutchinson, JFK, and Adlai Stevenson Why institutional religion no longer captures spiritual impulse for many Americans Storytelling as the essence of charismatic authority Evolution of American individualism and the cult of authenticity How mass media, trauma, and cultural crises shape charismatic influence Coming to terms with the limits of your “source base”—”Reality is an asymptote.” “It’s that sort of transcendent storytelling ability that is the heart of charisma.” Mormonism and the charisma of Joseph Smith Leaders like JFK and Adlai Stevenson offered different models of modern charisma “So much of my book is really about the fortunes of established institutions in American culture because charismatic figures always define themselves vis-à-vis institutions.” Routinizing charisma (cf. Max Weber) “The gap or the consistency between what our subjects are, are thinking and intending consciously and what they actually do.” Intuition versus analysis—steeping in cultural milieu and operating out of personal life experiences The Puritan heretic Anne Hutchinson “Very few humans are out-and-out cynics.” Charismatic figures aren’t always attractive or eloquent—they resonate through meaning-making. “ The religious impulse is finding a place to land other than organized religion.” Protestant roots of American consciousness tied to authority and self-discovery Humanist psychology and positive thinking “The age of the gurus” Charisma and Contemporary Politics: Donald Trump Trump’s story of victimhood, self-made success, and defiance of institutions as a charismatic myth Trump’s stream-of-consciousness style perceived as authenticity by many followers. “For example, his rambling stream-of-consciousness speaking style that actually is a core to his appeal, I think, for many Trump supporters because it comes across as a kind of authenticity—as a willingness to tell it how it is and speak off the top of his head. And authenticity as a personal style has no necessary relationship with honesty in terms of correspondence to, you know, empirically verifiable facts.” The alignment between his narrative and the prosperity gospel ”While Donald Trump is no one's idea of an orthodox Christian, he grew up in Norman Vincent Peale's church in New York City, Marble Collegiate Church, hearing the prosperity gospel, the gospel of positive thinking.” ”I think Trump has a, has a really acute spiritual instinct for. That picture of reality one in which we can really reshape reality with our minds.” Early support from independent charismatic church networks shaped his rise. Importance of positive thinking theology (e.g., Norman Vincent Peale) in his spiritual instincts. “I suppose I was about two-thirds of the way through the rough draft of this book when I was rudely interrupted by the Holy Spirit. I have always studied Christianity as a very sympathetic and, frankly, envious outsider and never was entirely happy with my agnostic fence sitting, but also wasn't actively looking to resolve my metaphysical questions.” “ I’ve always had this conviction that humans are fundamentally religious creatures and they have this impulse to connect to a transcendent source of meaning to worship.” “I came to realize that I was writing a book that was fundamentally about spiritual hunger and how humans cope with it. But that I myself had had that hunger as well—that I’m not immune to that feature of the human dilemma.” “We want to be pulled into something transcendent, where we are more fully ourselves.” Praying for a mystical experience—at least being “strangely warmed” ”God had already done something to my desires—I was walking in the direction of Jesus already.” “ I always see every kind of historical problem as somehow having to do with contesting visions of human nature.” “There’s this silly misconception that Christianity is intellectually stultifying—that to become an orthodox, traditional Christian is to shut off all kinds of questions and accept a black-and-white way of thinking. And that has not been my experience.” Research project on miracles “ Evangelism is just telling people what happened to you.” Conversion was driven by rigorous academic inquiry into the resurrection and New Testament Experience echoed themes in the book: story, vulnerability, and being seen Her analysis: “God had already done something to my desires before the arguments convinced me.” Post-conversion excitement about theological study, healing, and miracles Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Cancer is among the most common and feared diseases in the modern world. Dr. Selwyn Vickers—president and CEO of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center—joins host Mark Labberton to discuss how precision oncology, data, and faith are transforming cancer treatment. A distinguished cancer surgeon and pancreatic cancer researcher, Vickers explains how groundbreaking advances in genomics, immunotherapy, and AI are transforming once-lethal diagnoses into survivable and even chronic conditions. Together, they explore not only the cutting-edge science of cancer care but also the spiritual, emotional, and social dimensions that affect every patient and caregiver. Resonating with themes of suffering, hope, and resurrection, this conversation offers clarity, compassion, and courage for all who are affected by cancer—from those newly diagnosed, to medical professionals, to grieving families and curious listeners. Episode Highlights “We’re getting to a point where we will, in the next five to seven years, have a much better chance to cure people—and to make pancreatic cancer a chronic illness.” “We are in what’s somewhat coined the golden age of cancer research.” “Cancer is a disease that creates an existential threat in ways no other illness does.” “If a tumour forms, it means your body’s immune system has made a social contract with the cancer.” “We changed the diagnosis in 10–12 percent of the patients who come to us—sometimes from cancer to no cancer.” “Cancer care is a team sport. And our patients often inspire us more than we help them.” Helpful Links & Resources Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center BioNTech – creators of mRNA vaccines for COVID and cancer CAR T-Cell Therapy Overview (Cancer.gov) Tim Keller on cancer and hope Emma Thompson’s Wit (HBO) BRCA1 and BRCA2 Genes and Cancer Risk MSK-IMPACT: Next-Gen Tumor Profiling About Selwyn Vickers Selwyn M. Vickers, MD, FACS, is the president and CEO of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center (MSK) and the incumbent of the Douglas A. Warner III Chair. He assumed the role on September 19, 2022. Vickers is an internationally recognized pancreatic cancer surgeon, pancreatic cancer researcher, and pioneer in health disparities research. He is a member of the National Academy of Medicine and the Johns Hopkins Society of Scholars. He has served on the Johns Hopkins School of Medicine Board of Trustees and the Johns Hopkins University Board of Trustees. Additionally, he has served as president of the Society for Surgery of the Alimentary Tract and the Southern Surgical Association. Vickers is the immediate past president of the American Surgical Association. He also continues to see patients. In 1994, he joined the faculty of the University of Alabama at Birmingham (UAB) as an assistant professor in the Department of Surgery, where he was later appointed to professor and the John H. Blue Chair of General Surgery. In 2006, Vickers left UAB to become the Jay Phillips Professor and Chair of the Department of Surgery at the University of Minnesota Medical School. Born in Demopolis, Alabama, Vickers grew up in Tuscaloosa and Huntsville. He earned baccalaureate and medical degrees and completed his surgical training (including a chief residency and surgical oncology fellowship) at the Johns Hopkins University. Vickers completed two postgraduate research fellowships with the National Institutes of Health and international surgical training at John Radcliffe Hospital of Oxford University, England. Vickers and his wife, Janice, who is also from Alabama, have been married since 1988. They have four children. Show Notes The ongoing threat and fear of cancer How Selwyn Vickers got into medicine Pancreatic cancer: Vickers’s expertise “We are in what’s somewhat coined the golden age of cancer research.” Sequencing the human genome “Is there a drug that might target the mutation that ended up creating your cancer?” Cancer as both a medical and existential diagnosis The revolution of precision oncology through human genome sequencing ”It takes a billion cells to have a one centimetre tumor.” Immunotherapy: checkpoint inhibition, CAR T-cell therapy, and vaccines Cellular therapy:   ”Taking a set of their normal cells and re-engineering them to actually go back and target and attack their tumors. … We’ve seen patients who had initially a 30 percent chance of survival converted to an 80 percent chance of survival.” “We know in many tumours there’s something called minimal residual disease.” “Immunizing yourself against cancer is a significant future opportunity.” Managing the power of data with AI and computational oncology Cancer-care data explosion: the role of computational oncologists Cancer vaccines: breakthrough mRNA treatment for pancreatic cancer ”Didn’t ultimately win. We had to suffer through her losing her life, but was so appreciative that she got much more than the six months she was promised.” Tumour misdiagnoses and the importance of specialized expertise Pancreatic cancer challenges: immune cloaking and late-stage detection In the past, one in four would die from the operation for removing pancreatic cancer Long-term survival Future of cancer detection: AI-based medical record analysis and blood biopsies More accurate blood tests to confirm conditions Using AI to select those who are high-risk for cancer Pastor Tim Keller died of pancreatic cancer. In the past, “your doctor … helped you learn how to die.” ”[God’s] given man the privilege to discover those things that have been hidden. And over time we've gradually uncovered huge opportunities to impact people’s lives.” The state of breast cancer research and treatment “If you get the diagnosis of breast cancer, you have a 90 percent chance to survive and beat it over a five-year period of time.” ”In general, we’re in a great state of understanding how to treat breast cancer, how to detect it early, and then have selective and targeted mechanisms to prevent it from coming back.” Prostate cancer research and treatment Theranostics: using a specific antibody to target cancer cells specifically Pediatric cancer:  ”We actually treat more children for cancer than any hospital in America now, but in general, the survival for pediatric cancers is greater than 80 percent.” Emotional, psychological, and spiritual toll of cancer: importance of psycho-oncology How Sloan Kettering developed psycho-oncology to help cancer patients with mental and spiritual health Personal story: how a cafeteria worker empowers patients through food choices “We give back to them the right to choose what they get to have on their tray.” Cancer treatment is a team sport. Wit (film, Broadway play)—actress Emma Thompson plays a cancer patient studying the work of John Donne on death Socioeconomic and racial disparities in cancer care outcomes The healing role of community, support teams, and compassionate listening The importance of listening to cancer patients who are preparing to die The spiritual courage of patients and the transformative power of faith “Our patients often help us. We see the grace with which they often handle that journey.” The inspiration behind becoming a doctor: family legacy and human impact Terminal care: the sacred responsibility of walking with patients to the end Cancer research and treatment as a Christian vocation and expression of humanity Production Credits

“Leadership is defined by listening.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton explains the essential role listening plays in leadership and successful communication.  Leaders are often known for what they’ve said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they’re working with at any given time. Here, Mark shares from his decades of leadership experience as a Presbyterian minister and seminary president. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes Relationships of trust “ Listening is as critical to the existence of leadership as it is to the partnership of leadership.” “ If we don't have listening, then the partnership that leadership requires simply can't exist.” What leadership is really about: the people you’re leading are known, served, discovered, changed, renewed Tone-deaf leaders: leaders who are out of touch If you don’t want to be out of touch or tone deaf, “enter the room listening.” “Leaders are often known for what they’ve said publicly or privately, but in actual fact, the experience of leadership and the effectiveness of leadership is determined by the mutuality of listening and learning that goes on between the primary leader and the team that they’re working with at any given time.” Mutuality of learning and listening together—adding oxygen to the room Bringing part of yourself versus bringing your whole self to a leadership relationship “ Let’s not listen to one another first critically and negatively. Let’s listen to one another with hope, with earnestness, with a genuine desire to receive their perspective and letting that actually inform how we lead.” “When I ran into people who are having difficulties with their senior leader, it’s almost always around the leader’s failure to listen. At one level or another, they are not hearing the people that they’re leading.” “A leader who doesn't listen is like a person deciding to jump off a cliff. …  The longer they don’t listen, the more they are isolated by themselves and at risk.” Leadership enriched by an understanding of each other “A shared communion of decision making” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Strong leadership is born not from control, but from authentic community and the cultivation of people and teams. Nathan Hatch, former president of Wake Forest University and esteemed historian, joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the nature of transformative leadership. Drawing from his decades of experience at Notre Dame and Wake Forest—and from his new book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders—Hatch explores how leaders cultivate thriving institutions through humility, vision, and empowerment. Hatch shares his personal journey from growing up in a Presbyterian home to leading major universities, while reflecting on the comomunity, character, instincts, and freedom required for lasting institutional impact. Episode Highlights "Organizations aren't self-generating—you bet on people, not on strategy." "Organizations are best served when you have a team of like-minded people, each using their own strengths." "Leadership has to flow out of who you are authentically—you can't try to be someone else." "If you have exceptional people, it takes management of a different form—it's collaboration." "Leadership is not about control but about strength: hiring strong people is harder, but it's transformative." "People read your real meanings, not your words—authenticity is the heart of leadership." Helpful Links & Resources The Gift of Transformative Leaders, by Nathan Hatch University of Notre Dame Wake Forest University Jim Collins - Good to Great About Nathan Hatch Dr. Nathan O. Hatch is President Emeritus of Wake Forest University and one of America’s leading scholars of religion and higher education. Prior to his presidency at Wake Forest (2005–2021), Hatch served as provost at the University of Notre Dame. His groundbreaking scholarship in American religious history includes The Democratization of American Christianity, and his latest book is The Gift of Transformative Leaders. Hatch is a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and continues to speak and write on leadership, higher education, and culture. Show Notes Raised in a Christian home; son of a Presbyterian minister and teacher Influenced early by history teacher and work experiences in Cabrini Green, Chicago Studied at Wheaton College, Washington University in St. Louis, and Johns Hopkins University Became an unlikely but successful historian at the University of Notre Dame Leadership philosophy shaped by early experiences with supportive professional teams and deep community and friendship How did the past come to change and create the world we live in? Transitioned from historian to administrator, balancing scholarship and administration Provost at Notre Dame: emphasized empowering faculty through development and resources President at Wake Forest: built strong leadership teams, expanded institutional vision Reflections on Father Theodore Hesburgh’s visionary leadership at Notre Dame “Organizations aren’t self-generating. … [it takes] a vision and leader.” "Leadership must be authentic; it must come out of who you are." The transformative impact of great leadership teams over hierarchical control Importance of raising institutional aspirations and empowering individuals to flourish "Hiring strong people makes the leader stronger, not weaker." Nathan Hatch’s book, The Gift of Transformative Leaders Profiles 13 leaders who exemplify commitment, character, and institution-building Focus on people-centric leadership: authenticity, humility, vision Leaders described as radiating positivity, cultivating others, and advancing institutional missions Catholic and Protestant institutional differences in faith expression Creating inclusive religious life in pluralistic academic communities Investing in character education through initiatives like Wake Forest's scholarship programs Building culture: "Noticing people, investing in them, seeing their potential." “How do we help young people live their life?” Identifying and empowering exceptional talent Embracing unconventional hiring practices Building thriving, collaborative, life-giving teams Cultivating environments where people pursue a common good Navigating faculty-administration relationships with authenticity and transparency Facing organizational financial challenges without losing people-first priorities Leadership in contexts with limited resources: raising people’s potential Authenticity and empathy are foundational to leadership Humility and commitment to the common good are non-negotiable Leaders must genuinely invest in the flourishing of others Institutions are transformed not by structures alone but by transformative people Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist Nicholas Kristof (opinion columnist, the New York Times) reflects on his career of reporting from the front lines of injustice and human suffering, discussing hope, human resilience, and the urgency of responding to global injustice. An advocate for empathy-driven journalism that holds power accountable and communicates the stories of the most vulnerable, Kristof joins Mark Labberton in this episode to discuss his life’s work of reporting from the world’s most troubled regions—from Gaza to Congo, from rural Oregon to global centres of power. Known for his unsparing storytelling and deep empathy, Kristof shares the family roots and personal convictions that have shaped his lifelong pursuit of justice and hope. They also explore how despair and progress coexist, the role of faith and empathy in healing, and how local acts of courage can ripple globally. Grounded in gritty realism, but inspired by everyday heroes, Kristof invites us to resist numbness and embrace a hope that fights to make a difference. Stories from Gaza, Congo, Pakistan, and beyond Balancing heartbreak and hope in humanitarian reporting Why empathy must be cultivated and practiced The global impact of Christian activism and its complexities Episode Highlights “Side by side with the worst of humanity, you find the very best.” “We focus so much on all that is going wrong, that we leave people feeling numb and that it’s hopeless … but people don’t want to get engaged in things that are hopeless.” “Empathy is something that, like a muscle, can be nurtured.” “The worst kinds of evil and the greatest acts of courage are often just one decision apart.” “We are an amazing species—if we just get our act together.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don’t think there’s an inconsistency there.” About Nicholas Kristof Nicholas Kristof is a two-time Pulitzer Prize–winning journalist, and is an opinion columnist for the New York Times, **where he was previously bureau chief in Hong Kong, Beijing, and Tokyo. Born, raised, and still working from his rural Oregon home, Yamhill, he is a graduate of Harvard and was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford. He is the co-author, with his wife Sheryl WuDunn, of five previous books: Tightrope, A Path Appears, Half the Sky, Thunder from the East, and China Wakes. In 2024, he published a memoir, *Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life.* Books by Nicholas Kristof Tightrope A Path Appears Half the Sky Thunder from the East China Wakes Chasing Hope: A Reporter’s Life Helpful Resources International Justice Mission Dr. Denis Mukwege – Nobel Peace Prize PEPFAR: The U.S. President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief Tim Keller’s Final Interview with Kristof (NYT) Show Notes A voice of conscience How a global orientation for journalism developed Kristof reflects on his humble roots in Yamhill, Oregon, as the son of two immigrants “My dad was a Armenian refugee from Eastern Europe. His family had spied on the Nazis during World War II. They got caught. Some were executed by the Nazis, others were executed by the Soviet communists, and my dad was very lucky to make it out alive and was sponsored by a family in the US in 1952.” “I think that one fundamental mistake that bleeding hearts make, whether they’re bleeding hearts in journalism or in the non-profit community or in advocacy, is that we focus so much on all that is going wrong that we leave people feeling numb and feeling that it’s hopeless, so there’s no point in engaging. And there’s pretty good evidence from social-psychology experiments that people don’t want to get engaged in things that are hopeless. They want to make a difference. And so I think that we need to both acknowledge all the challenges we face but also remind people that there can be a better outcome if they put their shoulder to the wheel.” Extraordinary changes for justice and what’s going right David Brooks: “A deeply flawed country that also managed to do good in the world.” ”It just breaks my heart that kids are dying unnecessarily.” On losing PEPFAR foreign aid: “I hope that this damage can be repaired and that bleeding hearts of the left and the right can work together to try to help restore some of these initiatives.” The tragedies that followed from dismantling USAID Kristof’s book Chasing Hope “The fact is that I've seen some terrible things, and I think I may have a mild case of PTSD from, you know, seeing too much.” Nicholas Kristof on Gaza: “I don’t see Israel and Hamas as morally equivalent, but I absolutely see an Israeli child, a Palestinian child, and an American child as moral equivalents.  And we don’t treat them that way.” “What human beings share is that when terrible things happen, some people turn into psychopaths and sociopaths, and other people turn into heroes.” Cowardice and malevolent tendencies Empathy can be nurtured Children dying without anti-retroviral drugs in South Sudan Empathy Project in Canada Mass literature to inspire perspective taking Uncle Tom’s Cabin Black Beauty and animal rights/well-being Kristof’s run for Oregon governor Eastern Congo and UNICEF “A child is raped every thirty minutes in Eastern Congo.” Dr. Denis Mukwege, Nobel Peace Prize laureate treating women brutally injured by militia rape in Bukavu, a city in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo. Small gestures of compassion as an empathy grower for local communities “One of the lessons I think of Congo is that violence can be and inhumanity can be terribly contagious.” Genocide in Rwanda in 1994 The global sex-trafficking crisis “We don’t have the moral authority to tell other countries to do better unless we clean up our own act.” The American sex-trafficking crisis: systemic failures such as foster care pipelines into trafficking “There are no statistics, but I think it’s plausible that a girl in foster care is more likely to emerge to be trafficked than she is to graduate from a four-year college.” American sex-trafficking practices by PornHub and X-Videos: “Their business model is monetizing kids.” “You can be sex positive and rape negative. I don’t think there’s an inconsistency there, and I, I think we’ve just blurred that too often.” Christianity’s disappointing response to injustice Nicholas Kristof’s engagement with the activism and theology of the Christian church William Wilberforce’s anti-slavery movement in the 1780s President Bush’s establishment of PEPFAR in 2003: “This incredible program to reduce the burden of AIDS that has saved 26 million lives so far. It’s the most important program of any country in my adult lifetime in terms of saving lives.” “Evangelicals are very good in terms of tithing and donating money to good causes, but they’ve often opposed government programs  that would create opportunity and address these problems.” “Liberals are personally stingy, but much more supportive of government programs that that make a difference.” Criticizing the dismantling of global aid programs like USAID: “How can you read the Gospels and think this is good?” “I think being part of a religious community has led people to do good works together.” Christian advocacy for freedom of religion Kristof on scripture and belief: “We read the Bible and develop our religious views, and I think so often just reflects our priors rather than what the text says.” A closing example of hope: The Afghan war “We are an amazing species if we just get our act together.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Russell Moore, editor-in-chief of Christianity Today and author of 'Losing Our Religion', shares his insights on the crisis within American evangelicalism. He discusses the fragmentation of the movement and the longing for renewal amidst cultural upheaval. Moore draws parallels to historical awakenings and the dangers of merging faith with political ideology. He emphasizes the need for a return to the essence of the gospel and the importance of truth-telling in fostering spiritual growth during times of uncertainty.

“If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.” PEPFAR is the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief. And as of March 25, 2025, its congressional reauthorization has expired. For more than two decades, its website states, “the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history—saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries.” Now, some estimate that over 20 million people will lose access to antiretroviral drugs, which may result in up to 1,650,000 deaths over the coming year. In this episode, Mark Labberton speaks with Mindy Belz, an award-winning journalist and longtime war correspondent, to explore the urgent moral and humanitarian implications of PEPFAR’s uncertain future. Drawing on Belz’s deep reporting experience in conflict zones and her time covering global health efforts, their conversation traces the remarkable legacy of the U.S. government’s investment in HIV/AIDS relief, the stakes of congressional inaction, and the broader questions this crisis raises about American moral leadership, Christian charity, and global responsibility. Together they discuss: Mindy Belz’s background as a journalist and war correspondent The significance of PEPFAR in the global battle against HIV/AIDS The pivotal leadership role the U.S. government has played in supporting AIDS relief efforts for the past two decades The devastating impact that losing PEPFAR would have on human life around the world, particularly in Africa And, perspectives on charity, moral conscience, and faith in American Christianity Helpful Links mindybelz.com Mindy’s Article about PEPFAR: “1,650,000: How killing a global program to fight HIV/AIDS kills”: “PEPFAR contracts ended under Trump mean 20 million people on treatment now face HIV disease again. Without more reinstatements that could lead to a death toll of 1.6 million in a year's time.” About PEPFAR, the “President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief”: Through PEPFAR, the U.S. government has invested over $110 billion in the global HIV/AIDS response, the largest commitment by any nation to address a single disease in history – saving 26 million lives, preventing millions of HIV infections, and accelerating progress toward controlling the global HIV/AIDS pandemic in more than 50 countries. From ThinkGlobalHealth: “PEPFAR Misses Reauthorization Deadline: What's Next for Global HIV Fight?” Mindy’s book They Say We Are Infidels: On the Run from ISIS with Persecuted Christians in the Middle East Follow Mindy on X @mindybelz Follow Mindy on Substack: Globe Trot About Mindy Belz Mindy Belz is an award-winning American journalist. For over two decades, she has covered wars and victims of conflict in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Sudan and the Balkans. She recounts some of her experiences in a 2016 award-winning book, They Say We Are Infidels. Her work appears in The Wall Street Journal, Plough Quarterly, and other publications. The New York Times calls her “one of the bravest and best foreign correspondents in the country.” Mindy currently is editor of the 2024 Christianity Today Globe project. Her news roundup, Globe Trot, is read by thousands each week and available on Substack. She speaks internationally and has taught journalism courses in Uganda, India, Hungary, and the United States. She is the former senior editor at World Magazine. A mother of four and grandmother of three, Mindy was married for 40 years to Nat Belz, who died in 2023. She lives in North Carolina. Show Notes Mindy Belz: A Journalist in the Trenches Mindy Belz and her career at World Magazine Mindy’s coverage of the AIDS pandemic in East Africa and the war in Sudan The rise of Islamic extremism, Al-Quaeda, and crossing the Tigris into Iraq Her early experiences in journalism and what drew her to war reporting How she came to report from the Middle East and other conflict zones The challenges Mindy faced as a woman journalist “We've all experienced some of the conflict in the world. We've all experienced some terrorism and violence … this is a part of life in a broken and fallen world, and so learning from women, from men, from children incredible resilience in the face of terrible breakdowns is that I just consider a real privilege of my work.” Working with a Sudanese NGO—finding starving people, barely surviving “For Americans, we always get to walk away. I'm really aware in whatever hard situation I'm in, there's little voice at the back of my brain that's saying, ‘Don't forget you get to go home.’” What is PEPFAR? “ President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief,” developed by George W. Bush in 2003 Trendsetting program to battle HIV/AIDS Anti-viral drug program to prevent the spread (but not cure) the disease “We still don’t have a real cure for HIV.” “You have 20 million people who are currently taking antiretroviral drugs that are funded under PEPFAR and most of those people just suddenly could not have access to their medicine and, and that means that we are watching even now the disease grow.” “The Trump administration has basically shuttered the program and they have done so without the oversight of Congress.” Nicholas Kristof’s NYT March 15 article estimates that 1.6 million people could die over the next year. Link: “Musk Said No One Has Died Since Aid Was Cut. That Isn’t True.” “The scale of the devastation is mind-bending.” What can we do? “Congress is not exercising its oversight responsibilities right now.” “If a person is entrusted to care for a building and decides to tear it down, there's a moral imperative to disclose whether there are people inside. There are 20.6 million people and 566,000 children living inside PEPFAR.” What is the role of our government? “I've also seen PEPFAR working and working incredibly. I routinely and in lifesaving ways.” Understanding moral conscience “We are needing to call our nation not to a Christian identity, which I think is the, the false attempt of Christian nationalism, but to a moral identity. That people of faith, little faith, no faith, other faiths, can enter into and share. And I think some element of that has been operational in the United States for a very long time. And now all of that is being dismantled and being labeled, as you say, by a really cheap word like charity, as though there's no wider frame than simply compassionate sentimentality, as opposed to something that's really taking the moral realities of the world and all of their urgency seriously. And not pretending that we need to be (as we've sometimes tried to be as a nation) the healer of the nations, but to say that we should actually be a force for taking these issues with great national seriousness, and not just repudiating it because it's not inside the boundaries of our own country.” “Use the influence and the economic force of the United States to fund local programs.” “ We have the resources to go and make a difference in this situation. And by doing that we set an example for others to do it.” “We  have adopted an attitude of scarcity.” The impact and efficacy of antiretroviral drugs to improve the lives of people with HIV/AIDS—”To suddenly cut them off is an act of cruelty.” “This is a system, not just medication.” “If we’re suddenly saving $5 billion a year, what is that going to be used for?” ”If these things are all happening by executive decision, and Congress does not have a meaningful role, then essentially the people are cut out of the conversation.” “People who become sicker with HIV will become more likely to have tuberculosis, more likely to be suffering from other diseases than side effects of the virus itself.” Where Is God in All of This? “It's a dangerous world. Go anyway.” “We have to trust that the hand of God is there and that it will meet us in the midst of those hard situations.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

"Listening is everything. Without listening, there’s no music, no art, no understanding—just noise.” (Charlie Peacock, from the episode) Acclaimed musician, producer, podcaster, and author Charlie Peacock joins Mark Labberton to reflect on music, art, attention, listening, faith, and spirituality. From his groundbreaking work in pop music production (e.g., Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars), to his deep engagement with faith and mentorship, Charlie explores how attention shapes creativity, why making space for beauty is a spiritual discipline, and how a life of music can be an act of service. Through stories of artistic risk, collaboration, and calling, this conversation explores the rhythms of a flourishing life. In this episode, they discuss: Charlie’s new memoir, Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music The communal nature of making and producing music The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music The intersection of creativity, spirituality, and paying attention, How listening transforms both art and relationships, Life lessons from jazz, pop, and worship music production, And the role of both sound and silence in artistic and spiritual life. About Charlie Peacock Charlie Peacock is a six-time Grammy Award–winning musician and producer, having produced Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars, and many more artists. A three-time recipient of the Gospel Music Association’s Producer of the Year Award, he’s named by Billboard’s Encyclopedia of Record Producers as one of the five hundred most important producers in popular music history. His latest book is Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music, and you can listen to his podcast, Music & Meaning. For more information visit charliepeacock.com. Episode Highlights "If you’re not paying attention, you’re missing the song that’s already being sung around you." "A mentor doesn’t hand you a map; they help you learn how to navigate." "Faith and art are both about trust—trusting the unseen, the unfinished, and the uncertain." "The hardest and best lesson for any artist: keep showing up and doing the work." "Music isn’t just a product—it’s a means of connection, healing, and worship." Show Notes Charlie Peacock, Roots & Rhythm Music and community The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music Michael Polanyi tacit understandings Re-creation of the old into the dramatically new—e.g., Notre Dame Cathedral The joy of generational community Jazz: spirit, skill, and ability “That’s what I love about jazz improvisation. There was nothing and then there was something. Over and over again. … When you have those people in a room making music … it’s hard to go to sleep at night.” “I have been pursued by a loving Creator … God-haunted since I was a little boy.” “I wanted to know everything. … how, why, what, when … everything.” “Never once was there a moment when I was out of God’s grip.” Charlie Peacock’s Secret of Time: “God gives you time to be saved.” John Coltrane’s spiritual journey “250 people a night…” “I took the F-word out of two songs, and stopped taking 10% from the bar tab.” Hans Rookmaaker Inklings Time in England and the Netherlands, including time at L’Abri (run by Francis and Edith Schaeffer) “An artist and a follower of Jesus, and how those two could be congruent …” “Our death is life to life. The kingdom has already begun. We have been living it. And we will continue to live it.” “Playing with the entire history of music in your brain.” The Civil Wars: “We re-presented hyper-dynamics. … A lot of people have never heard that before. … It invites you in and lets you sit back.” (e.g., pianissimo to forte) Over-compressed music. “That lean in to the music is a part of your participation. … I’m committed to this music.” “I produced music in the ‘80s. I know how to ruin a record. … Big hair and big snare. … But really it had to do with technology.” Music in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s Neil Postman: “To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” “When I use this tool I have to make sure it doesn’t use me.” “My subtext is that this is a book about epistemology. … To say, ‘This is how I know what I know.’ It came through God, people, and place.” A worker-bee in the music business “Like a house with a party going on” Vocation, epistemology, and how an artists become who they are Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“They’re fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane. … There’s a wideness in God’s mercy. Since when has anybody said mercy for some and not for all? … Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up.  … This is not an impossible crisis to solve. … We need to not be divided by our political affiliations. As Christians, we stand with Christ, who critiques all human institutions.” (Alexia Salvatierra, from the episode) The immigration crisis on US borders reveals a deeper crisis of humanity—another example of democracy at a turning point. What should be the Christian response to the current immigration crisis? How can the individuals and small communities take effective action? And who are the real people most affected by immigration policy in the United States? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes theologian, pastor, and activist Alexia Salvatierra. She shares stories from the front lines of immigration justice. Alexia Salvatierra is an ordained Lutheran pastor and a leading voice in faith-based social justice movements. She serves as assistant professor of integral mission and global transformation at Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a key organizer in immigrant advocacy for over four decades. She co-authored Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World and works extensively with grassroots organizations to address the intersection of faith, justice, and policy. Together they discuss: Personal testimonies and policy insights based on stories of real people facing the immigration system in the United States The challenges immigrants face under an increasingly unforgiving system How faith communities can respond with faithful courage and productive grief, instead of outrage The global nature of the immigration, refugee, and foreign-aid crisis The width of God’s mercy and the effectiveness of immigration and refugee public policy A call to action for Christians to become “gracious disrupters” and stand with the vulnerable Helpful Links and Resources World Relief – Christian organization supporting refugees Lutheran Social Services – Organization falsely accused of money laundering Show Notes Immigration policy and the church’s response The impact of executive orders on deportation and asylum seekers Faith-based advocacy for immigrants The role of Latino churches in immigrant support How Christians can move from outrage to courageous action Immigration reform Faith-based activism ICE raids on churches Asylum seekers and deportation Christian response to immigration crisis Latino churches and advocacy Political fear versus Christian courage The role of the church in justice Broken immigration system Policy changes under different administrations Immigration Today: Stories and Case Studies An Assemblies of God pastor from Guatemala, facing deportation despite three qualifying cases for legal residency—South Los Angeles “ That’s what we mean by a broken system, is there’s all these little wrinkles in the system that don’t work.” Detention at a deportation facility called Adelanto ”They’re fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane.” Asylum, ankle bracelets, and “legitimate fear” “ They said he was a criminal because he had entered without authorization twenty years before when he was a teenager.” ICE agents attempting to detain a man during a worship service ICE and “sensitive locations”—Is a church an ICE “sensitive location”? Hispanic Theological Education Association Latino Christian National Network “That arrest has  provoked intense fear. …  they’re terrified to go to church.” The impact of anti-immigration policies on church attendance and spiritual care A desperate mother of a special-needs child preparing legal custody papers in case of deportation The economic and moral contradictions in mass deportation efforts “Cities that have municipal sanctuary laws are threatened with suit by the new administration.” The Global Immigration and Refugee Crisis “All around the world immigration is in crisis.” 1980 Refugee Act “All the countries who signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights have to take refugees.” The concept of “Refoulment”—”which means that you’re sending someone back to die.” “Not only are all refugee programs stopped, but current refugees are not getting the support that they need.” “ Costa Rica is a five-million-person  country and they’ve taken two million refugees.” American Immigration During the Trump Administration Elon Musk saying “ that Lutheran Social Services was a money-laundering machine.” Current administration’s policies as “ bold, unilateral, and so comprehensive and unnuanced” “If the Trump administration is successful at deporting ten million people, many of whom have been here over twenty years, thirty years, um, where will we find the labor that we need?” Policy and Legal Discussion The end of Deferred Deportation under the Trump and Biden administrations Executive orders eliminating prioritization of deportation The freezing of USAID and refugee support programs “All foreign aid has always been strategic. It’s never not.” “Global warming refugees” “The current president of Venezuela loves gangs.” “Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up. …  this is not an impossible crisis to solve.” The bipartisan immigration bill that Trump advised Republicans to block Historical immigration policies and their effectiveness “Policy does make a difference.” Objection to open borders: What about mercy for Americans? A false dichotomy. God’s mercy is wide. “We have a number of believers in Congress who are acting out of fear right now and not out of faith.” Call to Action How faith communities can support immigrants “Immigrant churches are taking the brunt of this.” Why outrage doesn’t help the process Ways to engage with legislators and advocate for reform The importance of standing with immigrant churches in this moment Supporting organizations like World Relief and Lutheran Social Services “The bulk of the people in the United States, the majority, have not had to grieve on this level. Not had to grieve with this intensity, with this constancy. Our spiritual muscles are weak—in terms of knowing how to grieve and keep going and trust God. ‘Though he slay me, I will worship him.’” “Encourage literally means ‘to get more courage.’ You know, to give courage, to get courage. And so I just would want everybody to stop being outraged and start being courageous.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.