"Listening is everything. Without listening, there’s no music, no art, no understanding—just noise.” (Charlie Peacock, from the episode) Acclaimed musician, producer, podcaster, and author Charlie Peacock joins Mark Labberton to reflect on music, art, attention, listening, faith, and spirituality. From his groundbreaking work in pop music production (e.g., Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars), to his deep engagement with faith and mentorship, Charlie explores how attention shapes creativity, why making space for beauty is a spiritual discipline, and how a life of music can be an act of service. Through stories of artistic risk, collaboration, and calling, this conversation explores the rhythms of a flourishing life. In this episode, they discuss: Charlie’s new memoir, Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music The communal nature of making and producing music The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music The intersection of creativity, spirituality, and paying attention, How listening transforms both art and relationships, Life lessons from jazz, pop, and worship music production, And the role of both sound and silence in artistic and spiritual life. About Charlie Peacock Charlie Peacock is a six-time Grammy Award–winning musician and producer, having produced Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars, and many more artists. A three-time recipient of the Gospel Music Association’s Producer of the Year Award, he’s named by Billboard’s Encyclopedia of Record Producers as one of the five hundred most important producers in popular music history. His latest book is Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music, and you can listen to his podcast, Music & Meaning. For more information visit charliepeacock.com. Episode Highlights "If you’re not paying attention, you’re missing the song that’s already being sung around you." "A mentor doesn’t hand you a map; they help you learn how to navigate." "Faith and art are both about trust—trusting the unseen, the unfinished, and the uncertain." "The hardest and best lesson for any artist: keep showing up and doing the work." "Music isn’t just a product—it’s a means of connection, healing, and worship." Show Notes Charlie Peacock, Roots & Rhythm Music and community The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things Hearing and visualizing music Michael Polanyi tacit understandings Re-creation of the old into the dramatically new—e.g., Notre Dame Cathedral The joy of generational community Jazz: spirit, skill, and ability “That’s what I love about jazz improvisation. There was nothing and then there was something. Over and over again. … When you have those people in a room making music … it’s hard to go to sleep at night.” “I have been pursued by a loving Creator … God-haunted since I was a little boy.” “I wanted to know everything. … how, why, what, when … everything.” “Never once was there a moment when I was out of God’s grip.” Charlie Peacock’s Secret of Time: “God gives you time to be saved.” John Coltrane’s spiritual journey “250 people a night…” “I took the F-word out of two songs, and stopped taking 10% from the bar tab.” Hans Rookmaaker Inklings Time in England and the Netherlands, including time at L’Abri (run by Francis and Edith Schaeffer) “An artist and a follower of Jesus, and how those two could be congruent …” “Our death is life to life. The kingdom has already begun. We have been living it. And we will continue to live it.” “Playing with the entire history of music in your brain.” The Civil Wars: “We re-presented hyper-dynamics. … A lot of people have never heard that before. … It invites you in and lets you sit back.” (e.g., pianissimo to forte) Over-compressed music. “That lean in to the music is a part of your participation. … I’m committed to this music.” “I produced music in the ‘80s. I know how to ruin a record. … Big hair and big snare. … But really it had to do with technology.” Music in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s Neil Postman: “To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” “When I use this tool I have to make sure it doesn’t use me.” “My subtext is that this is a book about epistemology. … To say, ‘This is how I know what I know.’ It came through God, people, and place.” A worker-bee in the music business “Like a house with a party going on” Vocation, epistemology, and how an artists become who they are Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“They’re fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane. … There’s a wideness in God’s mercy. Since when has anybody said mercy for some and not for all? … Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up.  … This is not an impossible crisis to solve. … We need to not be divided by our political affiliations. As Christians, we stand with Christ, who critiques all human institutions.” (Alexia Salvatierra, from the episode) The immigration crisis on US borders reveals a deeper crisis of humanity—another example of democracy at a turning point. What should be the Christian response to the current immigration crisis? How can the individuals and small communities take effective action? And who are the real people most affected by immigration policy in the United States? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes theologian, pastor, and activist Alexia Salvatierra. She shares stories from the front lines of immigration justice. Alexia Salvatierra is an ordained Lutheran pastor and a leading voice in faith-based social justice movements. She serves as assistant professor of integral mission and global transformation at Fuller Theological Seminary and has been a key organizer in immigrant advocacy for over four decades. She co-authored Faith-Rooted Organizing: Mobilizing the Church in Service to the World and works extensively with grassroots organizations to address the intersection of faith, justice, and policy. Together they discuss: Personal testimonies and policy insights based on stories of real people facing the immigration system in the United States The challenges immigrants face under an increasingly unforgiving system How faith communities can respond with faithful courage and productive grief, instead of outrage The global nature of the immigration, refugee, and foreign-aid crisis The width of God’s mercy and the effectiveness of immigration and refugee public policy A call to action for Christians to become “gracious disrupters” and stand with the vulnerable Helpful Links and Resources World Relief – Christian organization supporting refugees Lutheran Social Services – Organization falsely accused of money laundering Show Notes Immigration policy and the church’s response The impact of executive orders on deportation and asylum seekers Faith-based advocacy for immigrants The role of Latino churches in immigrant support How Christians can move from outrage to courageous action Immigration reform Faith-based activism ICE raids on churches Asylum seekers and deportation Christian response to immigration crisis Latino churches and advocacy Political fear versus Christian courage The role of the church in justice Broken immigration system Policy changes under different administrations Immigration Today: Stories and Case Studies An Assemblies of God pastor from Guatemala, facing deportation despite three qualifying cases for legal residency—South Los Angeles “ That’s what we mean by a broken system, is there’s all these little wrinkles in the system that don’t work.” Detention at a deportation facility called Adelanto ”They’re fighting their way through this crazy immigration system that is ineffective, illogical, and inhumane.” Asylum, ankle bracelets, and “legitimate fear” “ They said he was a criminal because he had entered without authorization twenty years before when he was a teenager.” ICE agents attempting to detain a man during a worship service ICE and “sensitive locations”—Is a church an ICE “sensitive location”? Hispanic Theological Education Association Latino Christian National Network “That arrest has  provoked intense fear. …  they’re terrified to go to church.” The impact of anti-immigration policies on church attendance and spiritual care A desperate mother of a special-needs child preparing legal custody papers in case of deportation The economic and moral contradictions in mass deportation efforts “Cities that have municipal sanctuary laws are threatened with suit by the new administration.” The Global Immigration and Refugee Crisis “All around the world immigration is in crisis.” 1980 Refugee Act “All the countries who signed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights have to take refugees.” The concept of “Refoulment”—”which means that you’re sending someone back to die.” “Not only are all refugee programs stopped, but current refugees are not getting the support that they need.” “ Costa Rica is a five-million-person  country and they’ve taken two million refugees.” American Immigration During the Trump Administration Elon Musk saying “ that Lutheran Social Services was a money-laundering machine.” Current administration’s policies as “ bold, unilateral, and so comprehensive and unnuanced” “If the Trump administration is successful at deporting ten million people, many of whom have been here over twenty years, thirty years, um, where will we find the labor that we need?” Policy and Legal Discussion The end of Deferred Deportation under the Trump and Biden administrations Executive orders eliminating prioritization of deportation The freezing of USAID and refugee support programs “All foreign aid has always been strategic. It’s never not.” “Global warming refugees” “The current president of Venezuela loves gangs.” “Fixing immigration is really different than blowing it up. …  this is not an impossible crisis to solve.” The bipartisan immigration bill that Trump advised Republicans to block Historical immigration policies and their effectiveness “Policy does make a difference.” Objection to open borders: What about mercy for Americans? A false dichotomy. God’s mercy is wide. “We have a number of believers in Congress who are acting out of fear right now and not out of faith.” Call to Action How faith communities can support immigrants “Immigrant churches are taking the brunt of this.” Why outrage doesn’t help the process Ways to engage with legislators and advocate for reform The importance of standing with immigrant churches in this moment Supporting organizations like World Relief and Lutheran Social Services “The bulk of the people in the United States, the majority, have not had to grieve on this level. Not had to grieve with this intensity, with this constancy. Our spiritual muscles are weak—in terms of knowing how to grieve and keep going and trust God. ‘Though he slay me, I will worship him.’” “Encourage literally means ‘to get more courage.’ You know, to give courage, to get courage. And so I just would want everybody to stop being outraged and start being courageous.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.” In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the full-bodied, empathetic nature of listening and the communication process. He reflects on good listening, the empathy it requires, and what it means to truly recognize and successfully understand each other. Listening and perceiving are bound up together in a fundamental way, offering us an opportunity to enter into another’s experience, truly seeing and recognizing them and receiving who they are. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes “Listening is almost always seeing.” Full-bodied listening and how perception adds to our understanding of each other “If I'm actually seeing you and then I'm hearing you, then it doubles the thickness of that communication moment.” Examples of bad listening: “pinning words on the speaker.” Recognition for the speaker: “My listening reflects that I'm actually perceiving them.” The fun and joyful work of communication Total body experience of listening and perceiving is about empathy. Empathy and entering the speaker’s world and experience The difference empathy makes “Empathy, even when you're wanting to give it doesn't make it automatic.  It often has to be something that emerges out of the communication experience itself.” Hearing, perception, and full-bodied communication “How we see and receive another person’s being…” Achieving a communication breakthrough: “Oh, I see!” ”It is like amazing grace is playing in the background. And I want to say ‘I once was blind, but now I see’ that's what it feels like a real revelatory discovery.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“‘To whom much is given, much is expected.’ …  That is the core of our Christian belief.” “I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad brush.” (Condoleezza Rice, from this episode) In this episode, Condoleezza Rice joins Mark Labberton to discuss the state of US foreign and domestic policy in light of Christian moral convictions. Secretary Rice served as the 66th US Secretary of State under President George W. Bush, has been on the faculty of Stanford University since 1981, and is currently the director of the Hoover Institution. Together they discuss: The state of US foreign policy and international relations How to think about American involvement in global politics The importance of US foreign assistance American patriotism and Christian devotion And Condoleezza Rice’s prayers for American leaders right now: discernment, judgment, compassion, and policy that reflects the dignity of all human beings. About Condoleezza Rice Condoleezza Rice is the Tad and Dianne Taube Director of the Hoover Institution and the Thomas and Barbara Stephenson Senior Fellow on Public Policy. She is the Denning Professor in Global Business and the Economy at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. In addition, she is a founding partner of Rice, Hadley, Gates & Manuel, LLC, an international strategic consulting firm. From January 2005 to January 2009, Rice served as the 66th Secretary of State of the United States, the second woman and first black woman to hold the post. Rice also served as President George W. Bush’s Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs (National Security Advisor) from January 2001 to January 2005, the first woman to hold the position. Rice served as Stanford University’s provost from 1993 to 1999, during which time she was the institution’s chief budget and academic officer. As professor of political science, she has been on the Stanford faculty since 1981 and has won two of the university’s highest teaching honors. From February 1989 through March 1991, Rice served on President George H.W. Bush’s National Security Council staff. She served as director, then senior director, of Soviet and East European Affairs, as well as Special Assistant to the President for National Security. In 1986, while an International Affairs Fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, Rice also served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. For more information, visit her profile at the Hoover Institution. Show Notes The state of US international relations “ The beginning of any administration is a bit chaotic” “I continue to hope that we will find a way to help Ukraine so that Vladimir Putin doesn't benefit from the aggression that he committed.” “The United States will undoubtedly play a different role. … That is the outcome of what's been eighty years of post World War II American engagement. … And so we need to ask, what are our values? What are our interests? And I think we're going to, we're going to see a good, solid American role in foreign policy.” Is the world order in the process of receiving a shock treatment? “ We really do need to rebuild our defense industrial base.” USAID: “ I'm a great believer that foreign assistance is one of the important tools in our toolkit of foreign policy.” “ I actually am one who believes that the absorption of USAID into the State Department is the right answer.” On US foreign assistance “A lot of what we do is purely humanitarian, purely life saving. We should. Just do that. Some of what we do is also strategic. What countries do we help to develop to be less fragile so that they don't become hubs for terrorism? …  And sometimes our assistance is to stabilize places in the world so that we don't face a security problem down the road.” Developing infrastructure “Am I patriotic? Do I love my country? Am I a nationalist? Absolutely. Am I Christian? Yes. And so I hope that people who are both patriotic and Christian are not being painted with a broad crust.” “But if we think about what it means to be Christian, it means to care about every human being, because every human being is created in the image of the Lord, and therefore every human being has worth.” “One of the closing comments from President Bush was, ‘To whom much is given, much is expected. …  that is the core of our Christian belief.” What is  the state of the Christian influence in American politics and life? Emulating the early church in establishing orphanages and hospitals, “and  to be a voice on behalf of those who are dispossessed.” Religious Freedom “When I was secretary of state, not because I was Christian, but because I was secretary of state, I would take a list of religious objectors with me to countries like China.” “The evangelical church has been very involved in human trafficking issues. We actually do have a problem of modern slavery.” “The church has a lot of potential to be a really good force in the world.” Condoleeza Rice’s most passionate prayers for the nation and the world right now “My most passionate prayer is that our leaders would have—and I actually pray this prayer— that they would have judgment and discernment, that they would have compassion, that they would lead from a position of knowing how much America has, and that they would understand that our role in the world derives from our universal belief in human freedom and that it is the only way that human beings have the dignity that they should have as having been created by God.” “I think one of the reasons we've had a bit of a backlash against some foreign assistance is that people wonder, ‘Well, are you thinking about Americans in the same way?’” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“ When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) Why is it so hard to communicate? To accomplish the simple task of delivering and receiving information? In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton suggests that real and successful communication is a miracle, and an infrequent one at that. Our failure to communicate regularly demonstrates just how far we are from adequately listening to one another. Ultimately, if we want to seek the miracle of communication, we need to take the responsibility to “close the loop” and do the work of hearing, listening, and acknowledging receipt. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate and inspire and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection, a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes Endless communication meetings talking about the failure of our communication News media’s failure to communicate Marital failures to communicate Parent-child failures to communicate Overcommunicating with too much information Undoing miscommunication “Communication is a miracle and not a frequent one.” Why is it so hard to communicate? “ In many ways, the stakes are against us when we’re really trying to communicate.” Ears, eyes, space, time, sounds, lighting How far we are from adequately listening to one another Acknowledging receipt of a message “The world is pushy. Culture is pushy.” Clarity of mind and heart ”When I watch people who are what I think of as expert communicators, they are people who have this quality that they hear well, they listen deeply, and they know what kind of communication to give in return that actually seals that that was fully received.” The importance of closing the communication loop “If I’m seeking the miracle of communication, then I have to live into the responsibility of closing the loop of communication and not just being a passive recipient of what it is that’s been said.” Failure to close the loop is what allows us to measuring the infrequency of true, successful communication. Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

Anne Snyder, Editor-in-Chief of Comment magazine and a thought leader on Christian social thought, joins the conversation to discuss a new manifesto for Christian Humanism. They delve into the importance of community in an increasingly individualistic society and the transformative power of hospitality amidst exclusion. Snyder emphasizes the need for diverse perspectives and critiques a singular representation of Christianity. The discussion also highlights healthy institutions' roles in fostering unity and the impact of engaging with varied backgrounds on personal and communal growth.

”I grew up thinking that Christianity was basically cruel and hypocritical.” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” “That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” —Jonathan Rauch, from the episode We’re at a crossroads, where Christianity and secularism in America are both operating at cross-purposes, and both need a critical reassessment of their role in democratic public life. In his new book, Jonathan Rauch “reckons candidly with both the shortcomings of secularism and the corrosion of Christianity.” He “addresses secular Americans who think Christianity can be abandoned, and Christian Americans who blame secular culture for their grievances.” Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode),  Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch. He is also a celebrated essayist, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, and a recipient of the 2005 National Magazine Award, the magazine industry's equivalent of the Pulitzer Prize. In this episode Mark Labberton and Jonathan Rauch discuss: Republican virtue What Jesus and James Madison have in common The political idolatry of secularism The differences between the thin church, sharp church, and thick church The political orientation of the church in exile Tyrannical fear The Morman church’s example of civic theology “of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” The promise of power in exchange for loyalty About Jonathan Rauch Jonathan Rauch is senior fellow in the Governance Studies program at the Brookings Institution. He is the author of several books, including The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth and his latest book (under discussion in this episode),  Cross Purposes: Christianity’s Broken Bargain with Democracy. Follow him on X @jon_rauch. Show Notes Cross Purposes: Christianity's Broken Bargain with Democracy The Constitution of Knowledge: A Defense of Truth Reasonable, civic mindedness “Graciousness toward a faith you don’t share.” “Of course I knew I was Jewish. I also knew that the idea of God seemed silly to me. I just never, never could believe it.” The Rev. Dr. Mark McIntosh 2003 Atlantic article: “The dumbest thing I ever wrote” celebrating secularism in America (”Let It Be,” The Atlantic, May 2003) “ It turned out that when Christianity started to fail, people started looking for substitutes, because they were looking for a source of identity and values and transcendent meaning.” Political idolatry of secularism “A major reason the country is becoming ungovernable is because of Christianity’s crisis. We can no longer separate the two, and that’s why I, a very secular person, am writing a book about Christianity.” “Moving away from the teachings of Jesus…” “The core teachings of Jesus align very well with the core teachings of James Madison.” Mark’s description of his father: “ My dad used to save certain neck veins for the discussion of religion because he felt like it was something that should be avoided, at that time, at all costs, particularly its most zealous kind. And his primary critique was that what religious people do is that they take great things and make them small. …   What shocked me when I became a Christian was this discovery that Jesus and my dad had this same theme in common, that Jesus often objected to the small making of various religious authorities of his day.” “God’s capacious grace, creativity, purpose, and love” Will the church live in its identity as followers of Jesus? “Christianity is a load-bearing wall in our liberal democracy.” “Republican virtues” (not the party): lawful, truthful, civic education, tolerant, pluralistic Christianity’s role in upholding the unprecedented religious freedom “When Christians begin demanding things that are inconsistent with those core values, that makes everything else in the country harder.” “The thin church is a church that blends into the surrounding culture and it becomes diluted.” “The sharp church is …  where the church takes on the political colorations of the surrounding environment, aligns itself with a political party.” Divisive and polarizing “The third is the thick church. And there, the challenge is that you want a church to be counter cultural. You want it to have a strong sense of its own values. Otherwise, it's just not doing the work. So it needs to ask a lot of its followers. It needs to give a lot back in exchange. That's what sociologists mean by, by thick communities and groups. At the same time, it needs to be reasonably well aligned with our constitution and our liberal democratic values.” Church of fear Fear of demographic decline Cultural fear and losing the country to the woke Left Fear of emasculation Plain old political fear: “Our side needs to win.” Fear as a major theme of the Bible Fear of God as “the beginning of wisdom” “A communion of unlike people. … A workshop in which the character of God … is meant to be learned.” Immaturity and lack of wisdom in the church “The chief defense of the faith in the world that Jesus died and rose is that unlike people find communion with one another in a union that only Jesus Christ's death and resurrection could actually accomplish.” “Tyrannical fear”—a drive for dominance “Fear is part of the human condition. Yet what's so countercultural about Christianity, is its teaching that you can't be governed by that fear. You can't let it run your life and go around in a state of panic. And that Jesus Christ himself had lots to be fearful of, as we know from the end that he came to, and yet comported himself in this calm and dignified way, did not let fear triumph over him. That's why we need Christianity. It's not because we don't have reason to fear. It's because we do.” “Fear casts out love.” Trump administration[’s] … demonstration of a capacity to have literally no compassion, no empathy.” The paradigm of Exodus versus the paradigm of exile Isaiah 58: “ Now as strangers in a strange land in Babylon, I'm going to ask you: Who are you now? Who do you trust now? Who are you going to put the full weight of your life on now?” “Exilic Church” “ Christianity is not about owning the country or winning in politics.” “It can’t be a coincidence that at a moment when (at least) white Protestantism in the United States is obsessed with political influence and has mortgaged itself to the least Christlike figure possibly in American political history (in any case, right up there) that its numbers are shrinking catastrophically.” “The irony of the cross always is this self emptying power.” [Trump] is saying, “I will give you power, and in exchange, you will give me unquestioning loyalty.” Comparing Trump’s transaction (at Dordt University in Iowa) “If you vote for me, you will have power” with the temptation of Christ in the desert: “All of this will be yours if you bow down to me.” Transactional relationship with power The Mormon church’s “ civic theology … of patience, negotiation, and mutual accommodation” Jesus: “Don’t be afraid, imitate Jesus, and forgive each other.” Madisonian liberalism: “Don’t panic if you lose an election, protect minorities and the dignity of every individual, and don’t seek retribution if you win, share the country.” “When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western civilization, he said, ‘It would be a good idea.’” Black church and MLK Jr.—”emphasis on Reverend” “You accept the stripes and the crown of thorns. You turn the other cheek.” Profoundly counterintuitive countercultural example Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode) “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” (Yuval Levin, from this episode) The transition of power from one presidential administration to another always has the potential for turbulence—often a surreal, perplexing, or disorienting process. But is there anything peculiar or problematic about the opening days of Donald Trump’s second term in office? Is there anything unconstitutional? In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes back Yuval Levin for a conversation about the political and social impact of Donald Trump’s first month in office in light of Constitutional law and the Separation of Powers. Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Currie Chair in Public Policy. His latest book is American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again. He’s founder of National Affairs, senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor of National Review, and contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. Together they discuss: The authority of the Constitution over the presidency The importance of character in the office of the president The separation of powers and the threat of presidential overreach What American citizens should be genuinely worried about right now The importance of cross-partisan policymaking and a variety of political voices Why we should worry, but not panic About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is the director of Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), where he also holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy. The founder and editor of National Affairs, he is also a senior editor at The New Atlantis, a contributing editor at National Review, and a contributing opinion writer at the New York Times. At AEI, Levin and scholars in the Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies research division study the foundations of self-government and the future of law, regulation, and constitutionalism. They also explore the state of American social, political, and civic life, focusing on the preconditions necessary for family, community, and country to flourish. Levin served as a member of the White House domestic policy staff under President George W. Bush. He was also executive director of the President’s Council on Bioethics and a congressional staffer at the member, committee, and leadership levels. In addition to being interviewed frequently on radio and television, Levin has published essays and articles in numerous publications, including Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, The Atlantic, and Commentary. He is the author of several books on political theory and public policy, most recently American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation – and Could Again (Basic Books, 2024). He holds an MA and PhD from the Committee on Social Thought at the University of Chicago. Show Notes A time of “presidential gigantism” “Is Trump interested in being Constitutionally faithful?” Pluralism and vigorous debate Swamping a weak, divided Congress Separation of Powers Legislature vs Executive Branch “ Nobody really ever expected the president to be representative. Presidents are elected to be accountable. Congress is elected to be representative.” “What we're watching here is the operation of the will of an individual on the system, and the system is really meant to answer to the negotiated will of a plural body.” Performative nature of political roles “Random grab-bag of power plays.” Fear of a “lawless president” “The beginning of  a new administration is unavoidably a little surreal.” “ It's important not to over-read the strength that's evident at the outset here because we don't really know how much of this will play out.” Elon Musk as Pseudo-President “ The president does command the executive branch. On the other hand, the president does not command the federal government.” “ When the question is, does the president have to follow the law, the answer to that is going to be yes.” Is the Supreme Court going to keep Trump in check? Overturning Chevron deference “Character is destiny.” “ I think character is destiny, especially in the American presidency, because the presidency really is one person.” “ The fact that character's destiny in the presidency is not good news for Donald Trump and is not good news for the country while he is president because the biggest problem with Trump is his character, is the lack of a sense of personal responsibility and self restraint, the lack of a respect for the need for stability and coherence in leadership, And to have an administration that has that character is going to challenge our system and I think just create problems for the country in some important ways.” ”In moments of decision and crisis, it's the president's character that determines how things go.” “ My biggest worry about Trump is not one policy or another. There's some I like and some I don't. But it's that ultimately the presidency is one person, and this one person is just not a good fit for that office.” Presidential overreach Loyalty tests and punishment “ What the president really does is make hard decisions.” Having room for opposition “Administration is impossible when people on the ground are afraid to tell you what's going on.” Alarm Bells First: “The possibility of the administration just willfully ignoring a court order.” Second: “Ignoring signals of trouble, ignoring dissent, ignoring opposing voices, a sense that they're ignoring reality and pretending things are happening that aren't. That's very dangerous in the presidency.” Third: “It's also worth worrying about the tendency for vengeance and for personal vendettas for using the power of prosecution and of law enforcement for political purposes, even for personal purposes.” Character and mindset Congress has 535 people. The presidency comes down to one person. Dangers on the horizon Checks and balances Laying the groundwork for a third Trump term? “On the whole  our institutions have proven fairly strong.” “It is better to worry than to panic. Worry lets you make distinctions …” Yuval Levin’s American Covenant: How the Constitution Unified Our Nation—and Could Again What is the voice of citizenship right now? Appropriations “Governors are some of the sanest people in our politics in this moment.” “I don't think that the lesson of Trump's first term should be that people who oppose him should just sit it out and wait. I think the lesson on the contrary is that the Trump administration does respond to pressure.” “Policy change should happen through cross partisan negotiation in Congress.” “President Trump has said, for example, that in his first month in office, he wants to have met every house Republican.” A variety of voices “In a way, the mindset of what's the thing we would do if we could magically do anything is the problem, not the solution. And it's how Donald Trump is thinking, what would I do if I were the emperor? I think the most important thing in this moment is for him to realize that he is not the emperor, and that our system never lets us do that thing we would want to do. That's the beauty of the system.” “The other great political question. What can I get done that I also want to achieve?” “God Bless America.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” (Mark Labberton, from this episode) In this Conversing Short, Mark Labberton reflects on the reality and meaning of the fact that “I am not you.” He considers the importance of differentiation between speaker and listener, and the best posture of the listener not only to gain information, but to contribute back to the speaker and the conversation itself, opening up a deeper and more imaginative exchange. Learning to appreciate and pursue knowledge of “differentiated others,” listening in this context becomes an antidote to presumption. The less presumptuous we are about others, the more knowledge and perspective we’re likely to gain. Listening is also more than immediate reflection. Better than restatement would be to probe the speaker’s interest and awaken their imagination, thereby creating new possibilities for everyone involved. About Conversing Shorts “In between my longer conversations with people who fascinate, inspire, and challenge me, I share a short personal reflection—a focused episode that brings you the ideas, stories, questions, ponderings, and perspectives that animate Conversing and give voice to the purpose and heart of the show. Thanks for listening with me.” About Mark Labberton Mark Labberton is the Clifford L. Penner Presidential Chair Emeritus and Professor Emeritus of Preaching at Fuller Seminary. He served as Fuller’s fifth president from 2013 to 2022. He’s the host of Conversing. Show Notes The gift of listening is not just similarities, but differentiation The adventure of knowing another person Mature listening Expanding the heart and mind through true differentiation Letting differentiation be a gift, and not a threat—leading to compassion, mercy, justice, and enlivened exchange “A chance to be more than our mere selves.” We’re each coming from different bodies, contexts, backgrounds, etc. Understanding the volley or back-and-forth “Sometimes listening is just an excuse for being quiet while we develop our own lines that we’re preparing to say to the other person. That is not listening. That’s something else. That’s about plotting and planning, or it’s about fear, or it’s about anxiety …” Earnest, genuine listening means becoming a genuine learner, without presumptions. “The gift of listening is the laying down of presumption. I don’t know you. I don’t know what you would say about this or that or the other thing. I don’t understand how you have experienced life. I don’t share in that emotional moment. I don’t have that same vocabulary. I don’t have that same life experience.” What happens when you are wrongly presumptuous about other people Listening is an unmasking of presumption. Exposing our presumptions Reflecting the words of the other is not enough; genuine listening unearths and awakens the imagination of the other Reaching genuine depth of conversational volley “These things are critical in leadership, because communication is a miracle—and not a frequent one.” Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

“I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” (Megan Katerjian, from the episode) What is it like to lose your house in a fire? The Eaton Fire in Los Angeles County started on January 7, 2025, and within twenty-four hours had burned over fourteen thousand acres of Altadena, California, and surrounding areas. Thousands of people have lost their homes (some without any guarantee of home insurance or FEMA aid), thousands of schools have closed, and life in this beautiful city has been completely transformed. Today’s guest, Megan Katerjian, went from helping local homeless families find housing to experiencing homelessness herself, when her family’s northwest Altadena home burned down in the Eaton Fire. She is CEO of Door of Hope and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes Megan to discuss her experience and perspective. Megan courageously and vulnerably opens up about the pain of losing a meaningful space of care and comfort, and shares about the physical, emotional, social, and spiritual realities of what this traumatic experience has been like. Together they discuss: Megan’s story of losing her house in the Eaton Fire The insights Megan gained about homelessness through experiencing her own version of it Megan’s work and ministry as CEO of Door of Hope, a Christian non-profit, based in Pasadena, serving Los Angeles County. From their website: “One of the only homeless providers that can shelter any kind of family together in their own private unit, including single moms, single dads, and two-parent families together with their children.” The meaning of a social safety network The effect of trauma on decision-making What approach to self-care and restoration she is pursuing The social and economic impact of homelessness The difference between financial and relational poverty And how you can help those affected by the Eaton Fire If you are unhoused for any reason, including having lost your home in the Los Angeles fires, visit DoorofHope.us for reliable information and practical resources. For additional information, visit Fuller Seminary’s Wind and Fire Resources page. Additional links: Summary of Eaton Fire City of Pasadena Eaton Fire Updates About Megan Katerjian Rev. Megan Katerjian is CEO of Door of Hope, and has a twenty-year career in fundraising, policy advocacy, program development, volunteer engagement, and pastoral ministry, working for non-profits in Los Angeles, Chicago, and South Africa, as well as churches in California. Megan holds two master’s degrees from Fuller Seminary, a bachelor’s degree from Cornell University, and a certificate in non-profit management. Megan lost her Altadena home in the Eaton Fires in east Los Angeles County in January 2025. Show Notes Learn more about Door of Hope: Empowering families facing homelessness to transform their lives Megan Katerjian shares about what the past month has been like after losing her house in the Altadena fires Temporary housing to transitional housing “I’m one of the thousands and thousands of people in Altadena who have lost our homes to the fire and are trying to pick up the pieces and find out what to do next.” Integrating Jesus and justice How Door of Hope works with Pasadena homeless The power-control cycle single mothers face A mother’s story of going from brokenness and despair to hope and empowerment Altadena’s fires Megan Katerjian tells her story of finding and then losing her home in northwest Altadena “It’s about the meaning of the home rather than the physical space.” Trauma-informed design: colors and arrangements bring the feelings of safety and comfort “I don’t think I’ve ever sobbed that hard in my life.” Losing a life-giving environment of comfort and peace How to pray for the devastation of the fires in Southern California Self-care “I can’t watch the news right now. … The fire coverage is really triggering.” Taking time off to grieve and pick up the pieces Being with people who went through the same experience Leaving town for respite in Goleta, California “I talked to God in very distracted conversations.” “The sun rises and sets every day, and God is present every day. And just that steadiness and that calm and that reminder was really, really important for me.” Expanding empathy and understanding of homelessness The irony of learning about homeless The impact of trauma-brain on the ability to make important decisions; slower processing “What the world might interpret as laziness or lack of motivation could just be the impact of trauma.” The “Social Service Shuffle”: good leads, bad leads, time wasted, etc. FEMA and “a sea of cots” “If I had nothing in my bank account and didn’t have a friend who had set up a GoFundMe page, I would be panicking right now.” “Homelessness is not just about financial poverty, it’s about relational poverty.” The benefits of a thick social safety network Walking through Asheville, North Carolina, after the hurricane flood Impact on the housing market for renting and buying homes Will any landlords be willing to take a Section 8 voucher? Multi-generation black homeowner families who have lived in Altadena for many years after redlining moved them out of Pasadena “The economics look a little different.” Three families in the same home—”what does their social safety network look like?” Door of Hope pivoting to create  the Eaton Fire Housing Assistance Program Working with FEMA and home insurance Working with the church to respond to the crisis and provide a family of care, support, and love Self-care as restorative rather than selfish A call to action: Please act and help those impacted by the fires in Southern California Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.