Copywriters Podcast

I really got a lot out of interviewing my friend and former mentoring client Chris Haddad over the last two shows. One of the things that struck me about what he said was: That he creates products exactly, or almost exactly, the way he writes sales letters and VSLs. I’ve been doing that for so long myself that I had forgotten most people don’t know about this trick. And if they know about it, they don’t do it. Then, last week, I did a consult for a client who wanted help planning a new product. I realized this would be the perfect opportunity to reverse-engineer what I did and share it with everyone who listens to the podcast. This is information I’ve been using for years, but frankly it’s never occurred to me to share it before. However, it just did occur to me, so let’s do it. If you are planning to create a new product, or fix one that isn’t very popular… then this will be valuable to you. Now, a lot of people still try to create products using the “Field of Dreams” approach. I’m referring to the Hollywood movie about baseball, which has the memorable, but financially toxic, line in it: “Build it and they will come.” Hey, even Hollywood, which lives in a magical world of its own, doesn’t entirely just build a movie and hope the audiences will come. They do test screenings of different versions of a movie to see which one audiences like better before they release a movie. But we’re not Hollywood, and especially when you’re creating a product for a particular niche, rather than a mass movie-going audience, you have access to better information than Hollywood does when they try to come up with a new movie that’s familiar, yet different. And, if the stars align, something good enough so a lot of people are willing to pay to watch it. I do consultations for people, usually on their sales copy after they’ve got the product done and when they’re just about ready to launch. I’ve been able to help people avoid problems and also crank up higher sales with these consultations. But I would be able to help them a lot more if they brought me in at the time they were conceptualizing the product. Most people don’t do that, but one client did last week. In light of what Chris Haddad told us in one of his interviews, I took a lot of notes on my questions. I’m keeping my client’s particular answers confidential, as I always do. But I’ll fill in answers for one of my products, and I’m hoping Nathan will have some experiences with his own products, or his clients products, early on enough in the development cycle so we can show you how this works. Now, when I did my consultation with my client, she found three missing things in the product she was planning. When she adds those things, I think her sales will later end up being a lot higher. There’s another thing to consider, though. If you can’t answer some of these questions in a way that directly shows what your product is, the way you have planned it, you may need to go back to the drawing board, or abandon the idea altogether. Because… while it’s possible, it’s really hard to sell people something they don’t want. In the show, we go over the Big Four Questions you really need to drill down on to get the product aligned with the prospect’s wants and needs, as well as values, mindset, and their current experience of life. This is part one of a two-part series. We’ll go over some additional important detailed questions in next week’s show.Download.

We’re back for another show with legendary copywriter and info-products publisher Chris Haddad. As a freelancer, he was so good that one of his clients referred to him as “moneyfingers!” We happened to be working together at the time, and I told him he should take the word and run with it. Which he has — Mr. Moneyfingers. As a marketer of his own products, Chris went way outside of the niche and managed to get himself on a national TV show with Rachel Ray. This was for his product “Text the Romance Back.” Though he really is legendary today, he was once just an under-the-radar copywriter. That was a long time ago, for sure. I bring that up only to point out he’s worked his way to where he is. Today’s show is called “My Life In Copywriting,” and Chris has agreed to take us on a VIP tour of how he got to where he is today. Here are the questions we asked him: 1. What was your first big win as a copywriter? 2. When you started writing for people like Joe Barton and Jeff Walker, what do you think you did that got such big results? 3. Normally I wouldn’t bring this up, but if you’re willing, I’d really like you to talk about keeping your business alive when you were seriously sick with Lyme disease. I thought it would be of interest because there’s so much concern about covid and health in general these days. 4. You made a transition from copywriter to business owner, something that would scare a lot of copywriters. Complete with employees, systems and everything that goes with having a business. Could you talk about the challenges, and what you learned? 5. Looking at the world as someone who has been a copywriter for hire, and, if I remember correctly, you hired copywriters at one time. How did that work out, and, what tips would you offer copywriters today? 6. Wanna talk about your latest project and how it’s going?Download.

We’ve got legendary copywriter and info-products publisher Chris Haddad on the show today, and for that I am grateful. As a freelancer, he was so good that one of his clients referred to him as “moneyfingers!” We happened to be working together at the time, and I told him he should take the word and run with it. Which he has — Mr. Moneyfingers. As a marketer of his own products, Chris went way outside of the niche and managed to get himself on a national TV show with Rachel Ray. This was for his product “Text the Romance Back.” Though he really is legendary today, he was once just an under-the-radar copywriter. That was a long time ago, for sure. I bring that up only to point out he’s worked his way to where he is, and I’m hoping he can share some stories and secrets you’ll find inspiring as well as useful for wherever you are on your own path. Here are the questions we asked: 1. Chris, welcome and thanks for joining us! I’ve found people at very high levels in this business speak about your work in hushed tones, unless they have a competing product, and then their voices get a lot louder. Could you tell us how you get started on a project, and how you’ve been able to create so many winners? 2. The stories you write at the start of your scripts and letters are like nothing I’ve ever seen. You seem to get so deep into the mind of your prospects that I wonder if you use acting techniques to emotionally “become” your prospects. How do you get so in touch with the inner dialogue of the people you’re selling to? 3. I think it’s fair to say that you’re a contrarian. What are some things “everybody” says you should do in copy that you disagree with — and what do you do instead? 4. What’s the most interesting feedback you’ve gotten from customers and JV partners about your copy? 5. Your copy is so in-your-face, and Facebook doesn’t look kindly on really strong copy, in my experience. How do you work around that, or, do you simply not advertise on Facebook? 6. What advice do copywriters need to hear in 2020 that no one else is telling them?Download.

Have you ever noticed that some copy you read is immediately believable, while other copy leaves you wondering whether it’s the real deal or not? One of the most important reasons copy is believable is whether the copywriter used one or hopefully more of a few little hacks. Today, continuing our Old Masters series, I found an extremely valuable chapter in an old book that spells out what these hacks are. I’ll leave it to you to decide how valuable they really are, and whether you are already using them, or should use them even more than you do now. So, again -- I’ve noticed a lot of copywriters miss out on these things. It hurts the believability of your copy when you don’t use use things. I’ve picked five of them from A.O. Owen’s chapter in Masters of Advertising Copy. But to make them a little clearer and more obvious, I’ve included examples from three winning pieces of copy, so you can see and hear exactly what they look like. The first place I went looking for examples was from a famous newspaper ad from the 1970s, The Lazy Man’s Way to Riches, by Joe Karbo. The second source of examples was a sales letter I wrote for a local business in San Ramon, California in 2006. Once he mailed the letter, his business was flooded with customers. The ad was for a summer special to get your car detailed. The business was Mendelson Autobody. And the third sources of examples was an online sales letter that’s running right now, and has just crossed the $10 million mark in sales. It’s by Million Dollar Mike Morgan. It’s a financial promotion, and for business reasons I don’t have permission to tell you anything more than that about the letter. But I will mention that Million Dollar Mike is a former guest on Copywriters Podcast. OK, so as for the old master, A.O. Owen. I can’t find out much about him other than what it says at the beginning of the chapter, which is that he was a well-known sale promotional copywriter and copy chief with large publishing houses who has lectured on copywrting and written many ads of all types. I believe he wrote the chapter in the 1920s. But as you will see, what he wrote is every bit as true today as it was 100 years ago.Download.

Lori Haller is known as the Lion Tamer of Copywriting, because she has successfully collaborated with some of the most headstrong personalities in the industry… and afterwards, everyone left as friends! Lori is a creative strategist, speaker, author and trainer. Her company, Designing Response LLC, has been creating award-winning, sales-generating direct mail, online promotions, space advertising and design for more than 20 years. She’s worked with every big name in direct response you can think of. She’s the author of AWAI’s Ultimate Guide to Building a Highly Profitable Graphic Design Business, and she works with clients around the world. On the show, she talks about little tweaks in the way your promotion looks that can lead to big gains in response. Lion Tamer Lori says her quest is “to annihilate the great, grey wall of type.” Meaning, she wants to page to be as interesting to look at as it is to read. To most copywriters, that might seem like no big deal. A typical copywriter would say, “Copy is king!” And Lori would be first to agree! But, she would add, if your page makes the reader feel uncomfortable in any way — not because of the words on the page, but the feeling the reader gets simply by trying to read it — then all the hard work the copywriter has done, is for naught. On today’s show, Lori talks about little-known distinctions in things like color, type font, and designing your page so it will work on multiple platforms (like a large computer monitor, a tablet, AND a smartphone)… information some of the largest direct marketers in the world pay her a lot of money to help them with, day in and day out. Find out more about Lori: https://lorihaller.com/http://lorihaller.com Download.

The number one thing you’ve got to do as a copywriter is first, get people’s attention. Sounds obvious, I know. But how many times have you had to write a headline and you spent hours, not knowing where to start? It happens to all of us. I found an old book in my personal library that can help you out. It’s called “The Magic Power of Emotional Appeal,” by Roy Garn. It was a best-seller, way back in 1960. And so this is part of our Old Masters series. And it turns out the author boiled it all down to four specific ways that get attention. After doing a lot of research and field testing. We will reveal all four ways today and give you some ideas on how to weave these emotional appeals into your copy. This is a book about what makes people tick. And once you have deeper insights into what makes people tick, it’s one hell of a lot easier to figure out how to get their attention. Here’s an important quote from the book: “The people with whom you live, work, and interact rarely want to think; they emotionally enmesh with what they feel. These individualized feelings are emotional activators, as well as barriers to communication.” Now, let me add, when you can tap into the right feelings for the right reasons, you can own the attention of other people, including your prospects. This may be the best book I’ve ever read about human nature. It’s out of print, so if you hunt it down, I ought to give you a heads up: If you are very analytical and/or you’ve had a lot of advanced education, you might find it tedious and/or rambling. I’ve taken that part out and slanted it hard towards copywriting. It wasn’t as simple as it sounds. But once you get below the surface, you realize it’s actually pretty deep and insightful. Just not presented in the book in a structured and logical way. It’s extremely conversational and emotional. Here are some hints about what we cover in today’s show: 1. The first attention-getting emotional appeal speaks to the primary unconscious objective of every living being. 2. They’ve written songs about it, they’ve got huge buildings and institutions devoted to it, they even made a movie with Paul Newman and Tom Cruise about the color of this emotional appeal. 3. People with dirty minds only think of one or two things when they hear this emotional appeal. But it actually goes much further than what they’re thinking of. 4. This one’s so obvious it’s easy to overlook. But it’s reasonable to say that this appeal has sold more expensive goods and services than anything else in the world. The Magical Power of Emotional Appeal, by Roy Garn: https://www.amazon.com/Magic-Power-Emotional-Appeal-Situation/dp/B000FJEPRU Download.

Our guest today has lived the kind of life most of us only see on TV and movies. He worked as a specialized contractor in Iraq in PsyOps, which in a way is like the military version of persuasion or direct marketing. Of course, much of what he did is classified, but he’ll share some insights that don’t compromise sensitive information today. He’s also worked at the heartbeat of world media, as an editor for CNN, NBC, Sky, CNBC and MTV. Our guest is Christian Dixon, and these days, he’s pursuing copywriting with a ferocity I see only in the most obsessed practitioners of the craft, and I would include Nathan and myself in that group. We invited Christian to come on the show to talk about what he learned in his other professions that would be interesting insights for copywriters. And while this is NOT the most interesting insight, what I am about to say IS nonetheless important. And that is this: Copy is powerful. You’re responsible for how you use what you hear on this podcast. Most of the time, common sense is all you need. But if you make extreme claims... and/or if you’re writing copy for offers in highly regulated industries like health, finance, and business opportunity... you may want to get a legal review after you write and before you start using your copy. My larger clients do this all the time. Here’s what we covered: PsyOps lessons: 1. In terms of the actions people will actually take in life, people will do more / give more / take bigger risks for a cause they believe in than they will do for themselves alone, or even for their families. 2. People being interviewed/interrogated will give up more information when the questioner uses sincere empathy and a gentle approach than they will when the questioner uses a tough and confrontative approach. TV editing lessons 3. People tend to believe what they see more than the words they hear. 4. Sequence is more important than content in determining what meaning or conclusion a viewer will come away with (the magic of editing). 5. A single powerful idea or theme, well illustrated, communicates and convinces more than a complicated idea with a lot of data. 6. Finally, with all your skills, talents, and experience, what was it about copywriting that made you want to get really good at this craft?Download.

I’m in a book discussion group with a client and two of his friends. The only problem is, both of his friends are also podcasters, so you can imagine how hard it is to get a word in edgewise. The book we were discussing last time was Jonathan Haidt’s A Righteous Mind. This is an especially important book because it offers some concrete ways to bridge the big political divide going on in America and really much of the rest of the world right now. I want to focus on something else in the book that’s not political, though. Several times the author makes a point of emphasizing that people are very concerned with what other people think about them. We talk about that idea and break it down in today’s show. For now, I want to say this is something that a lot of copywriters and marketers miss the mark on. Which is a shame, because it’s a powerful selling tool. You could hardly say it’s unknown, but it’s not very well understood, either. Once you see what I’m going to show you, I think you’ll understand it a lot better. We start by looking for the deep underlying message in a TV commercial for the prescription drug Linzess. Though the spoken words and words on the screen are all about the medical condition and the drug, the story portrayed by the actors and scenery are quite different. We look at how the advertiser used the concern about what other people think to sell a drug designed to help people with belly pain and constipation. Then, we review with Jonathan Haidt said, as well as two little-known parts of Vic Schwab’s “How to Write a Good Advertisement” and Gene Schwartz’s “Breakthrough Copywriting.” Both of these Old Masters knew the how-other-people-think element of copywriting extremely well, and have some really important things to say about it. Finally, we look at how we, as direct marketers, can use this sales angle. Obviously we don’t have the wherewithal to set up, hire for, and film a commercial like Linzess did. Fortunately, there’s a much simpler way to use the what-people-think angle, subtly, in your copy. We’ll share an example with you.Download.

I was watching TV last Sunday, and since we record a few episodes ahead, I was watching TV on the last Sunday of May. The show was “Meet the Press,” and it always starts with the announcer starting by pointing out that this is the longest-running show on TV. Of any show. From a marketing point of view, that’s an enviable place to be. Usually, when you’ve been on the air since 1947, that lasting power alone simply radiates trust. People tend to trust anything that’s been around a long time. So it really caught my attention when in the waning seconds of the show, the moderator, Chuck Todd, said something I’ve never heard him, or anyone else on TV, say before: “Thank you for trusting us.” The reason this caught my attention really doesn’t have much to do with Meet the Press, which is by far not one of my favorite shows, nor what it might have said about Chuck Todd, who, to be honest with you, is not my favorite TV personality. I was a little stunned by the words “thank you for trusting us” because I don’t think anyone in Chuck Todd’s position would utter words like that unless he, and a lot of very nervous people around him, were worried about keeping the trust of the viewing audience. And don’t think for a minute this rising tide of distrust is limited to that moderator, that show, or that TV network. It is widespread. It is, frankly, everywhere. And as a marketer and copywriter, this is something you need to be aware of and to adjust your marketing message to. I have handpicked three emotional triggers from my book Breakthrough Copywriting. I have never shared these three before, because, frankly, they are pretty intense. But I think they are good medicine for the distrust that ails us. (first) Trigger 2: Empathy through shared misery When people are hurting, scared or mistrustful, showing them that you know how they feel will bring down barriers and make them much more open to what you have to say. I’ve heard that empathy is easier for some people than for others. I have also heard a theory that either you’re born with it, or you’re not. I don’t know if that’s 100% real, but I do know that some people have natural empathy and others have to work at developing it. Right now I would say it’s simply one of the most important qualities and assets you can have, as a copywriter and as a business owner. (second) Trigger 6: Sour Grapes to Vintage Wine Sometimes severely underpromising the results you know your product can get, can increase sales. If you go too far past what people think is real and possible for them, even if you know that much more is real and possible, you’re going to lose a lot of sales. This, again, is why it’s so important to know your customers. (third) Trigger 11: From Desperation to Salvation Trace the path of from complete helplessness to an amazing turnaround, that you can actually deliver with your product. A lot of people are feeling pretty desperate right now. If you have a legitimate offer that will help them out of the quicksand, this is a great format to use to tell your story. All of these are from Chapter 10 of Breakthrough Copywriting. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1548706957 Download.

We’re back with another show in our Old Masters series. A return visit for the ideas of Claude Hopkins, but completely different material since last time, when we pulled out some key points from his book Scientific Advertising. As I said before, and it’s worth repeating, When I first started learning how to write copy, everybody told me “read Scientific Advertising.” It’s a book written in the first part of the 20th century, over 100 years ago, by Claude Hopkins, who many consider the father of direct-response copywriting. I did read the book. I read it again. In fact, I read it 15 times. But for today’s show, on the advice of my friend and previous Copywriters Podcast guest Don Hauptman, I looked into an excellent book from long ago called “Masters of Advertising Copy.” The book has 25 chapters, and each is written by a different copywriter. I knew we had to start with the one by Claude Hopkins. His chapter is humbly titled, “Some Lessons I Have Learned In Advertising.” But to give you an idea of how eternal every single one of Claude Hopkins’s lesson is, I couldn’t find one that is not in active use today. Five lifetime lessons from Claude Hopkins 1. Demonstration and samples Sampling and demonstration, which are different forms of the same thing, make up the best way to sell anything. Features by themselves usually don’t sell. Features + benefits work some of the time. But demonstration, where the customer gets to sample the product personally, usually works best of all — because people know from direct experience what they’re getting and what the benefits will be. 2. Free gift and curiosity You can get people interested by offering a free gift, and you’ll do even better if the gift is a mystery until they get it. People always like to feel they’re getting “the better end of the deal.” This is a proven way to operationalize that desire on the part of prospects into a way to get more sales. 3. Power of drama with a boring product Drama will help you sell a lot more products, and if you dramatize a boring product, you can sell it when you couldn’t sell it before. This is similar to the idea in Jeff Walker-style launches. The drama adds to interest in the product in a way that’s hard to match with anything else, when you do it right. It’s hard to get this right, but when you do, you’ve got a gold mine on your hands. It’s hard to get it right because it’s like marketing entertainment. Publishing a best-selling book, or releasing a hit song or a movie, is usually much chancier and harder to do than simply making a lot of money with a good product. 4. Test everything Test small before you scale up. Early on in his career, many companies came to Hopkins with product ideas they were certain would be winners. Hopkins says he made “several great mistakes by relying on my judgment and on theirs.” 5. Seeking out the details that convince Your USP can be buried in trivia (or so it seems to many business owners and execs). But that “trivia” can be a detail the decides the prospect to buy from you, and become a customer. Gene Schwartz even developed a category of copy to label this kind of description: Mechanism. The key is not just using a mechanism in your copy, but using it convincingly to make a customer see why you are the preferable choice in the marketplace. Resource: Masters of Advertising Copy, Edited by J. George Frederick: https://www.amazon.com/Masters-Advertising-Marketing-Routledge-Editions-ebook/dp/B086H4L4K8Download.