Copywriters Podcast

David Garfinkel
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Dec 28, 2020 • 0sec

Counterintuitive Copywriting with Donnie Bryant

Our guest today is Donnie Bryant, a direct response copywriter and marketing consultant. Since 2007, he's written sales copy in more than a dozen niches. Agora Financial, Dan Kennedy's GKIC, and Early to Rise have all been clients. He's also shared the stage with legends such as Lamar Tyler, David Deutsch and the late Clayton Makepeace. I heard Donnie speak on an invitation-only copywriting webinar hosted by Agora Financial a couple years ago. He said some things about curiosity and neuroscience, as they related to copy, that caught my interest so much I knew I wanted to have him on this podcast some day. That day is today, and we’re lucky to have him. Here’s what I asked him: So we can both admit neither of us remember exactly what you talked about on that Agora call, but I believe you are a big fan and ongoing student of neuroscience, as it applies to copywriting. Could we start with this question: 1. What's the most surprising thing you've discovered about how neuroscience affects how copywriting works? 2. You have said that “salesmanship in print” is an outdated term. Especially considering that you live in the great city of Chicago, where the phrase was coined, that’s a little surprising. Why do you say it’s outdated? 3. At one time in your life you used to sell jewelry face-to-face. I believe you learned a tactic then that makes it painful not to buy! Could you tell that story? 4. I hope you’ll forgive me for bringing up Chicago again, but it is the home to some of our greatest comedians, Donnie. You have a technique copywriters can use to engage readers’ minds more deeply… and you say this can be done by swiping a technique mastered by top comedians. Tell us about that. 5. OK, let’s get into neuroscience again for a second. What is the REAL neurological reason it is critical to nail your headline and lead on every piece of copy? 6. You have said that AIDA should really be CDA. What do you mean by that?Download.
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Dec 21, 2020 • 0sec

The Greatest Things About Being A Copywriter

Since we’re getting near the end of the year from HELL, I wanted to have a feel-good show to cheer everyone up. It’s a long answer to the question: What are the greatest things about being a copywriter? I think sometimes we get so caught up in the what’s and the how’s and the why’s of copywriting that we don’t take enough time to appreciate all the unique aspects of being a copywriter that can make it so much fun… and so rewarding. Listen, I’m not going to skip over the money part. That’s important. But there’s so much more than that. So what I’d like to do today is talk about the things you can appreciate if they’re already true for you… and things you can look forward to if you haven’t enjoyed them yet. I put this podcast together this a little while before Thanksgiving, so I was in a grateful frame of mind. I realized a lot of us in this line of work get used to it after a while, and start to take some of the unique aspects of copywriting for granted. I thought, why not celebrate the good stuff. If nothing else, reflecting on those things will help you through tedious and difficult times. Plus, if you’re just starting, I do want to assure you, there’s light at the end of the tunnel… and most of the time, it’s not the headlight from a train coming right at you! So, what we’re going to talk about breaks down into 3 categories: The Work, The Perks, and The Jerks. Seven things in all… enjoy!Download.
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Dec 14, 2020 • 0sec

Avoiding The Copywriting Compliance Trap Door

There’s one word keeps popping up this year when I’m talking to copywriters, and that word is “compliance.” If you don’t get the gist of what this means and what to do about it, you can get your ads shut down in a heartbeat. In fact, your whole ad account. This happens more often than you think. But if you navigate the compliance maze successfully, you have a real advantage. In some cases, you will be able to sell where you competitors can’t. And of course there’s a lot of money to be made when you do paid advertising right. I wanted to take one show to talk about this. I’m not the world’s expert on compliance myself but I’ve helped others make their copy compliant nonetheless. We talk about that and how you can take steps to avoid problems in this area. What I am and what I am not, as far as copy compliance goes: First, I’m not a walking encyclopedia on copy compliance rules and regulations. That might be one reason I suggest everyone with a big promotion get a legal review before they launch. I have a working knowledge of compliance, but things change all the time. What I am is: pretty good, when I’m presented with some copy and a clear reading of the rules, as my client understands them, at two things: - Reworking copy to give it the maximum shot at success within those rules, or - Finding a workaround that works and will keep them out of trouble. Now, let’s talk about compliance and reasons for it. Then I’ll give you some things you can do to keep from really stepping in it. Your reason is probably to stay out of Facebook jail or an official government jail. Believe me, there are all kinds of charges that can be made against someone for false advertising if a prosecutor wants to make them. From the point of view of the people seeking your compliance: It used to be the only compliance you had to worry about was with the Feds and the states, and this usually had to do with scamming people. These days, it’s more complicated: Google, like a newspaper publisher of old, makes money primarily by selling ads within an environment of factual credibility. Whether you agree that’s the case or not, that’s usually how they see it. So… any ads that go against their notion of factual credibility -- like saying you have the fastest weight-loss system in both the known and unknown universes -- would be out of compliance. For, among other things, using a superlative -- “fastest.” Facebook is like a TV network, where they are letting you advertise so long as you can keep the entertainment ton consistent with the environment they believe they are creating and maintaining. So a lot of things direct-marketing advertisers normally do, “don’t fit” in the Facebook environment. That’s how I see it, in terms of themes and intentions. Now, the difference between a good hook and a really bad hook? A good hook intrigues the prospect without giving away the whole story so your prospect has to read more to find out. A really bad hook outright deceives the prospect and this opens you up to a world of hurt, sooner or later. You can almost always find a way to make a good hook compliant. A bad hook will rarely be compliant and even if you get away with it, you’ll still end up with a lot of unhappy customers, who feel ripped off. And they may come after you. OK, that’s the background. In the show I detail five steps I use with clients to help them stay in compliance.Download.
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Dec 7, 2020 • 0sec

5 Copy Don'ts

Today we are back in the Old Masters series, with some helpful hints from a little-known but highly successful copywriter from the early 20th Century. He’s simply known by three initials: J.K.F. This was a guy who literally started out writing copy for food. He was quoted as saying, “No one wanted an advertising man like me. Had to eat so made a deal with the mate and cook of a ship who had opened up a restaurant on 23rd Street. Every week I put a poster in the window inviting people to come in and eat. In payment, whenever I felt hungry I went in and ate on the house.” He started out like that, but he ended up as a rich and successful CEO of New York ad agency. J.K.F. wrote a chapter in the book “Masters of Advertising Copy” called “Copy Don’ts.” We’re going to talk about some of them today. It turns out there were 38 “don’ts” in his chapter, and we wouldn’t possibly have time to cover them all adequately in a 30-minute podcast. So we selected eight of the best and fit them into five categories: 1. Facts and research 2. The state of mind of your prospects as they read your copy 3. The importance of being proactive about persuasion 4. The danger of distrust, and how to avoid it 5. Generating ideas that sellDownload.
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Nov 30, 2020 • 0sec

Junior Copywriter Opportunities with Kira Hug

Our guest today is Kira Hug. You may know of her from The Copywriter Club or The Copywriter Underground, where she is Co-Founder. She also heads a micro-agency, as she calls it, where she leads a team of copywriters on projects for course, membership and product launches. In fact, her specialty is personality-driven launch copy and brand strategy. I’ve known Kira a while, and was really intrigued when I learned she knows a lot about working with junior copywriters. It’s a topic both beginners and veteran copywriters can benefit by learning more about it, and that’s what she’s going to talk about today. Here are the questions we covered on today’s show: What is a junior copywriter, and what has been your experience either working as one or working with them? What are the different ways you can work with junior copywriters on a project? What can a junior copywriter do to land a copy gig with a pro copywriter? What are the pros and cons of adding a junior copywriter to your team? How do you decide to pay a junior copywriter? How can you avoid disasters when you work with a junior copywriter? What can a junior copywriter do to nail a subcontracting gig with a pro copywriter? When is the right time to hire a junior copywriter? What are the tasks I could expect a junior copywriter to do/learn realistically? What’s the next step to becoming, or finding, a junior copywriter?Download.
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Nov 23, 2020 • 0sec

Copywriting Hacks and Reps

Learn insider copywriting hacks and tips to excel in the industry. Practice reading copy out loud and handwriting fiction for storytelling. Explore essential books like 'Tested Advertising Methods' and strategies for ongoing education. Discover the importance of continuous improvement in copywriting skills on this engaging podcast.
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Nov 16, 2020 • 0sec

SEO Copywriting with Michel Fortin

Today I’m so pleased to have an old friend on the show who has branched out beyond direct-response copywriting. In the early 2000s, Michel Fortin was a living legend who wrote the first online sales letter that brought in $1 million in sales in one day. I am forever grateful to Michel for being my presentation partner in my famous 2005 Las Vegas Breakthrough Copywriting seminar. We also took the stage together a few years later at Harv Eker’s Marketing Event, and we sold somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000 worth of products during our presentation. A number of things happened later, and not all of them good for Michel. But he took his career in a different direction, and today he’s an expert in SEO copywriting, which means optimizing your copy for the search engines. You have to understand that everything Michel has to tell you today can make you a lot of money, if you listen and act on what he says. 1. Michel, 15-20 years ago, you were a renowned direct-response copywriter, and a highly revered partner of mine in the two presentations, which I just mentioned in the intro. You still are, in my mind. But fast-forward to 2020, over the past decade, fate took your career in a different direction. Could you tell us about that? 2. Let’s talk about SEO copywriting. What is it these days, and how does it work? 3. Could you drill down to how you use SEO copywriting for traffic, and for conversion? 4. I know this is ignorant and prejudiced, but I always thought that SEO copywriting meant stuffing as many keywords into your copy, to the point where it draws a lot of traffic but where it is barely readable. Please adjust my attitude and give us some tips on how people who have not reached your level of expertise can use SEO copywriting methods.. 5. What’s counterintuitive about SEO, CRO and UXO? That is, what works that you wouldn’t expect, and what doesn’t work that you think shouldn’t work? 6. As time moves forward, how do you think SEO copywriting will evolve?Download.
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Nov 9, 2020 • 0sec

Productizing Your Knowledge, with Mike Giannulis

Our guest today, Mike Giannulis, is a serial entrepreneur who understands, and has depended upon, the value of copy to really grow the business. When I met Mike and we started working together, his main focus was copywriting. But he has built several seven- and eight-figure businesses from scratch. And his the business he runs now, he told me, is currently on track to generate eight figures of revenue per year. It’s called Sanetris, with its products and programs focused on health and wellness. He has about 30 people on staff. Mike also has a personal story you may have heard about. And one time, he weighed 540 pounds, but he has lost and kept off more than 300 pounds. Today, we’re going to talk about something Mike has a lot of successful experience with: taking what you know, and turning it into a product that sells. 1. Mike, this is an appealing idea! To start, could you give us your definition of “productizing your knowledge?” 2. What would you say is the kind of knowledge that is good to productize, and which kind isn’t? Both for the point of view of the marketer and that of the consumer? 3. What have you found that’s counterintuitive -- that is, what works, or is a good idea that doesn’t seem like it would work, and what doesn’t work that seems like it should, when it comes to productizing knowledge and selling it? 4. Could you talk about the role that copywriting plays in the productizing-knowledge process? 5. Mike, tell us how you have used this in / to build / your business.Download.
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Nov 2, 2020 • 0sec

Copywriter to CEO, with Mike Giannulis

Our guest today, Mike Giannulis, is a serial entrepreneur who understands, and has depended upon, the value of copy to really grow the business. When I met Mike and we started working together, his main focus was copywriting. But he has built several seven- and eight-figure businesses from scratch. And his the business he runs now, he told me, is currently on track to generate eight figures of revenue. It’s called Sanetris, with its products and programs focused on health and wellness. He has about 30 people on staff. Mike also has a personal story you may have heard about. And one time, he weighed 540 pounds, but he has lost and kept off more than 300 pounds. Today, we’re going to talk about a different transformation in his life, though. The journey from copywriter to CEO. Here’s what we asked him: 1. Mike, we were working together when you made the transition from copywriter to CEO. I continued to work with you on copy topics, but as I recall, you hired a different coach for your new role as CEO, which of course was a smart thing to do! ☺ Could you tell us about the new skills you needed to develop, as you transitioned from copywriter to CEO? 2. A copywriter, if they’re any good, is focused on the copy and the results it needs to get. A CEO has to lead, guide, and keep track of a business. (I hope I got that right!) What mindset changes did you experience as you moved into the CEO slot… and could you give us an example or two of what that looked like? 3. I’d like to look at the last question from an activity point of view, rather than a mindset point of view. Could you talk about the day-to-differences of managing people and processes, as a CEO, rather than primarily managing words and images, as a copywriter? 4. What was your biggest challenge as a new CEO? How did you deal with it? 5. What was your biggest surprise as a new CEO -- what you expected to happen that didn’t happen, or what you didn’t expect to happen that did happen? 6. If you met a copywriter who was considering expanding their role to CEO, what’s the most important advice you would give them?Download.
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Oct 26, 2020 • 0sec

Reason-Why Copywriting

Today we’re back with our Old Masters series, with a topic that has been begging to be on Copywriters Podcast for a long time: Reason-Why Copywriting. First, a little about our Old Master, and he really deserves the title, even though he is not particularly well known these days. It’s George Burton Hotchkiss. We’ll be drawing from a couple chapters in his book Advertising Copy, published in 1924. Almost 100 years ago. Hotchkiss worked as a reporter for the old New York Sun newspaper, and after that, became a copywriter for the ad agency which later became the famous firm known today as BBDO. Later he went on to found the Department of Advertising and Marketing at New York University, where he was chairman and where he worked for 48 years. What he says about reason-why advertising in his book is really not that different than what’s true and what works today. We’ll dive into it and pull out a few of the most important pieces. Now, reason-why copywriting. It’s alive and well today, but people don’t talk about it a whole lot. We’re going to spend a few minutes talking about reason-why copy, and then I’ll give you some examples of parts of a promo written first as reason-why copy, and next as emotional copy. But first, let’s get clear on our terms. What is it? In short, reason-why copy appeals to the prospect’s reason, while what we’ll call “emotional copy” appeals mainly to emotions. Now to be sure, you can mix elements of the two kinds of copy in the same email, or ad, or web page. But for this show, we’ll treat them as separate and opposite. Just to make it clear what reason-why copy is. Hotchkiss says, “If all buyers were logical and all purchases were based upon a deliberate choice, there would be little place in advertising for anything except reason-why copy. “Human beings, however, are not wholly logical. And they all make purchases that are not even sensible.” (For example, the Fender Jazzmaster guitar I bought. It’s mostly for surf rock and jazz. And I don’t play much of either one. But it felt so good to get it — NOT logical!) So you understand that reason-why copy is more matter-of-fact than emotional copy, for starters. OK. The next question is, where do you use it and when shouldn’t you use it? • Use it for high-end offers. People with more money spending or investing larger amounts tend to respond better to reason-why copy than purely emotional copy. • Use it for B2B offers. Let’s say you were selling a grinding machine to factories. Reason-why copy is going to work better than sensual, dramatic, emotional copy. • Of course you can use some aspects of reason-why copy in anything, even a low-end bizop offer or a straight consumer offer. But for those kind of offers, you’ll probably want to lean more heavily on emotional appeals. Hotchkiss has 21 sections in two chapters about reason-why copy. We can’t get to all of them, but here are the two most important: First, evidence. Hotchkiss says, “In a mail-order advertisement, where the object is to secure immediate response, it is often desirable to cram the copy full of facts. If the reader is unwilling to read so much material, he is not a sufficiently good prospect to be ready to purchase the article or to seek more information about it.” So, facts. Evidence. And the kind of advertising we talk about on this podcast is advertising designed to get an immediate response. The second really important factor in reason-why copy is logic. That’s much to go into in-depth here, but this really stood out to me, when Hotchkiss says, “It is commonly complained that people do not think.” Hotchkiss doesn’t buy this argument, but he says, whether it’s true or not, he goes on, “This, however, is no excuse for the copywriter. He must be a logical thinker. He needed not study formal logic, but at least he should be able to trace an effect to its cause and a cause to its effect. And he should be able to present that train of ideas so that his reader will follow it. “His facts and his conclusions must not be confused; they must be arranged in orderly sequence.” This is a tall order. But I’ve found the most successful copywriters are very, very good at this. Including the best female copywriters. OK. Evidence and logic. Sounds pretty boring, right? But many people have said Gary Bencivenga’s copy was reason-why. I’d agree. And considering the results he got, you could hardly call that boring. Because it’s all in how you use the evidence and logic. There are ways to make it interesting, even if it’s not terribly emotional. Let’s get into some examples. The background is, I’m breaking out some things I’ve been doing as part of my mentoring and critiques, and now offering them as separate services.. Since not everyone wants to learn copy or have their copy critiqued, but a lot of business people might want one or more of these services. For example, USP. I’ll be launching a USP-building service later this year. USP stands for Unique Selling Proposition. It’s very similar to a Positioning Statement, and from a direct-response point of view, it’s almost identical with branding. Because a good USP sets you apart from competitors and bonds your customers to you. This is something I’m already doing, by the way. I’ve helped copywriters get their USP, and I’ve worked with a few companies to help them get theirs, too What I’m about to share with you are some rough-draft pieces of copy to promote this new service. What I will do is share the same piece of copy, like a headline, written in the reason-why format, and next, written as emotional copy. Then we can talk about each one afterwards. 1. Headline The reason-why headline is How to get the same powerful marketing weapon the world’s largest companies have — at a fraction of the cost And the emotional headline is: Imagine your business becoming a “household name” among your customers and prospects I think they’re both good headlines. The difference is, it’s pretty easy to prove the first one. Large companies all have USPs. Most small businesses don’t. A USP truly is a powerful marketing weapon, because of how it helps you win the battle for the prospect’s preference. And while it will cost a bit to work with me, what I charge is still a lot less than the hundreds of thousands of dollars large companies often pay for their positioning and branding statements. So, all provable. Now, if instead of a USP service, I were selling a regular consumer item, like strawberry jam,, emotional copy might actually be a better choice in the headline. But for what I’m selling here, I’m going with the reason-why headline. 2. Now let’s move onto the big promise -- what they prospect can expect to get from this USP service. The reason-why version is: A custom-develop positioning statement, based on what research says: • Is important to you • And is important to your customer OK. Now let’s hear a big promise for the same service in the language of emotional copywriting: You’ll have a unique identity in the marketplace you’ll be so proud of, and your customers will fall in love with your business. I guess both are good, but I like the first one, because I know I can deliver that. The second one… I have yet to see a positioning statement customers fall in love with, with the possible exception of Wal-mart’s old one, which they tragically replaced in 2007: Always low prices. People who love to shop could fall in love with that now-retired USP. (Nathan comments) 3. Testimonials play a role in reason-why copy. It’s just that they’re a little more fact-based and a little less emotional. Here are two examples to compare. I made these up but I could get similar testimonials from a handful of clients very easily, because I’ve had people say these things to me in casual conversation. The reason-why version of a testimonial: “I was reassured after David found unique appealing benefits in our business that we were simply too close to for us to see them ourselves. We feel like our USP is our new ‘secret weapon’ in the marketplace -- even though we will make sure it’s no secret at all!” And the emotional version: “We are so thrilled with the new USP you put together for us. Getting it was like unwrapping a whole bunch of brand-new presents on Christmas morning!” Of course, the first one is more logical and factual. The second one is based on feeling. Just as important, the first one is about utility -- how the client will actually use the new USP. 4. Now lets look at two versions of the offer -- first, a reason-why style offer, and second, an emotional-style offer. The reason-why offer is: This is your opportunity to set your business apart from all others in a way that is important to you AND to your customers. This means you will frequently be the first choice for people and companies you most want to do business with. And the emotional one: Now, at long last, customers will fall in love with your business. And it won’t be a one-night stand, either. It will be a satisfying, long-term relationship! You can see the difference. The first one is definitely impactful. But it’s based on some practical considerations that would make business better for you. The second one is purely emotional. It may be true, but it just as easily could be seen as fantasy. OK, now you’ve got the basics of reason-why copy. If you find you lean way in the direction of reason-why copy, you might want to add more emotion to what you’re doing. And vice-versa. And if I accidentally made you want to get a USP package from me, I don’t even have a web page up for it yet. But you can send me a note using this email address: podcast@davidgarfinkel.com Please put “USP” in the subject line so I can find it quickly. We’re going to put the detailed show notes up today with all the examples and quotes so you can study them if you’d like to get a better idea of reason-why copy. And the email address. The Hotchkiss book is out of print and very hard to find, but if you’d like to try, it’s simply called “Advertising Copy.” Download.

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