Copywriters Podcast

Our guest today, Mike Giannulis, is a serial entrepreneur who understands, and has depended upon, the value of copy to really grow the business. When I met Mike and we started working together, his main focus was copywriting. But he has built several seven- and eight-figure businesses from scratch. And his the business he runs now, he told me, is currently on track to generate eight figures of revenue per year. It’s called Sanetris, with its products and programs focused on health and wellness. He has about 30 people on staff. Mike also has a personal story you may have heard about. And one time, he weighed 540 pounds, but he has lost and kept off more than 300 pounds. Today, we’re going to talk about something Mike has a lot of successful experience with: taking what you know, and turning it into a product that sells. 1. Mike, this is an appealing idea! To start, could you give us your definition of “productizing your knowledge?” 2. What would you say is the kind of knowledge that is good to productize, and which kind isn’t? Both for the point of view of the marketer and that of the consumer? 3. What have you found that’s counterintuitive -- that is, what works, or is a good idea that doesn’t seem like it would work, and what doesn’t work that seems like it should, when it comes to productizing knowledge and selling it? 4. Could you talk about the role that copywriting plays in the productizing-knowledge process? 5. Mike, tell us how you have used this in / to build / your business.Download.

Our guest today, Mike Giannulis, is a serial entrepreneur who understands, and has depended upon, the value of copy to really grow the business. When I met Mike and we started working together, his main focus was copywriting. But he has built several seven- and eight-figure businesses from scratch. And his the business he runs now, he told me, is currently on track to generate eight figures of revenue. It’s called Sanetris, with its products and programs focused on health and wellness. He has about 30 people on staff. Mike also has a personal story you may have heard about. And one time, he weighed 540 pounds, but he has lost and kept off more than 300 pounds. Today, we’re going to talk about a different transformation in his life, though. The journey from copywriter to CEO. Here’s what we asked him: 1. Mike, we were working together when you made the transition from copywriter to CEO. I continued to work with you on copy topics, but as I recall, you hired a different coach for your new role as CEO, which of course was a smart thing to do! ☺ Could you tell us about the new skills you needed to develop, as you transitioned from copywriter to CEO? 2. A copywriter, if they’re any good, is focused on the copy and the results it needs to get. A CEO has to lead, guide, and keep track of a business. (I hope I got that right!) What mindset changes did you experience as you moved into the CEO slot… and could you give us an example or two of what that looked like? 3. I’d like to look at the last question from an activity point of view, rather than a mindset point of view. Could you talk about the day-to-differences of managing people and processes, as a CEO, rather than primarily managing words and images, as a copywriter? 4. What was your biggest challenge as a new CEO? How did you deal with it? 5. What was your biggest surprise as a new CEO -- what you expected to happen that didn’t happen, or what you didn’t expect to happen that did happen? 6. If you met a copywriter who was considering expanding their role to CEO, what’s the most important advice you would give them?Download.

Today we’re back with our Old Masters series, with a topic that has been begging to be on Copywriters Podcast for a long time: Reason-Why Copywriting. First, a little about our Old Master, and he really deserves the title, even though he is not particularly well known these days. It’s George Burton Hotchkiss. We’ll be drawing from a couple chapters in his book Advertising Copy, published in 1924. Almost 100 years ago. Hotchkiss worked as a reporter for the old New York Sun newspaper, and after that, became a copywriter for the ad agency which later became the famous firm known today as BBDO. Later he went on to found the Department of Advertising and Marketing at New York University, where he was chairman and where he worked for 48 years. What he says about reason-why advertising in his book is really not that different than what’s true and what works today. We’ll dive into it and pull out a few of the most important pieces. Now, reason-why copywriting. It’s alive and well today, but people don’t talk about it a whole lot. We’re going to spend a few minutes talking about reason-why copy, and then I’ll give you some examples of parts of a promo written first as reason-why copy, and next as emotional copy. But first, let’s get clear on our terms. What is it? In short, reason-why copy appeals to the prospect’s reason, while what we’ll call “emotional copy” appeals mainly to emotions. Now to be sure, you can mix elements of the two kinds of copy in the same email, or ad, or web page. But for this show, we’ll treat them as separate and opposite. Just to make it clear what reason-why copy is. Hotchkiss says, “If all buyers were logical and all purchases were based upon a deliberate choice, there would be little place in advertising for anything except reason-why copy. “Human beings, however, are not wholly logical. And they all make purchases that are not even sensible.” (For example, the Fender Jazzmaster guitar I bought. It’s mostly for surf rock and jazz. And I don’t play much of either one. But it felt so good to get it — NOT logical!) So you understand that reason-why copy is more matter-of-fact than emotional copy, for starters. OK. The next question is, where do you use it and when shouldn’t you use it? • Use it for high-end offers. People with more money spending or investing larger amounts tend to respond better to reason-why copy than purely emotional copy. • Use it for B2B offers. Let’s say you were selling a grinding machine to factories. Reason-why copy is going to work better than sensual, dramatic, emotional copy. • Of course you can use some aspects of reason-why copy in anything, even a low-end bizop offer or a straight consumer offer. But for those kind of offers, you’ll probably want to lean more heavily on emotional appeals. Hotchkiss has 21 sections in two chapters about reason-why copy. We can’t get to all of them, but here are the two most important: First, evidence. Hotchkiss says, “In a mail-order advertisement, where the object is to secure immediate response, it is often desirable to cram the copy full of facts. If the reader is unwilling to read so much material, he is not a sufficiently good prospect to be ready to purchase the article or to seek more information about it.” So, facts. Evidence. And the kind of advertising we talk about on this podcast is advertising designed to get an immediate response. The second really important factor in reason-why copy is logic. That’s much to go into in-depth here, but this really stood out to me, when Hotchkiss says, “It is commonly complained that people do not think.” Hotchkiss doesn’t buy this argument, but he says, whether it’s true or not, he goes on, “This, however, is no excuse for the copywriter. He must be a logical thinker. He needed not study formal logic, but at least he should be able to trace an effect to its cause and a cause to its effect. And he should be able to present that train of ideas so that his reader will follow it. “His facts and his conclusions must not be confused; they must be arranged in orderly sequence.” This is a tall order. But I’ve found the most successful copywriters are very, very good at this. Including the best female copywriters. OK. Evidence and logic. Sounds pretty boring, right? But many people have said Gary Bencivenga’s copy was reason-why. I’d agree. And considering the results he got, you could hardly call that boring. Because it’s all in how you use the evidence and logic. There are ways to make it interesting, even if it’s not terribly emotional. Let’s get into some examples. The background is, I’m breaking out some things I’ve been doing as part of my mentoring and critiques, and now offering them as separate services.. Since not everyone wants to learn copy or have their copy critiqued, but a lot of business people might want one or more of these services. For example, USP. I’ll be launching a USP-building service later this year. USP stands for Unique Selling Proposition. It’s very similar to a Positioning Statement, and from a direct-response point of view, it’s almost identical with branding. Because a good USP sets you apart from competitors and bonds your customers to you. This is something I’m already doing, by the way. I’ve helped copywriters get their USP, and I’ve worked with a few companies to help them get theirs, too What I’m about to share with you are some rough-draft pieces of copy to promote this new service. What I will do is share the same piece of copy, like a headline, written in the reason-why format, and next, written as emotional copy. Then we can talk about each one afterwards. 1. Headline The reason-why headline is How to get the same powerful marketing weapon the world’s largest companies have — at a fraction of the cost And the emotional headline is: Imagine your business becoming a “household name” among your customers and prospects I think they’re both good headlines. The difference is, it’s pretty easy to prove the first one. Large companies all have USPs. Most small businesses don’t. A USP truly is a powerful marketing weapon, because of how it helps you win the battle for the prospect’s preference. And while it will cost a bit to work with me, what I charge is still a lot less than the hundreds of thousands of dollars large companies often pay for their positioning and branding statements. So, all provable. Now, if instead of a USP service, I were selling a regular consumer item, like strawberry jam,, emotional copy might actually be a better choice in the headline. But for what I’m selling here, I’m going with the reason-why headline. 2. Now let’s move onto the big promise -- what they prospect can expect to get from this USP service. The reason-why version is: A custom-develop positioning statement, based on what research says: • Is important to you • And is important to your customer OK. Now let’s hear a big promise for the same service in the language of emotional copywriting: You’ll have a unique identity in the marketplace you’ll be so proud of, and your customers will fall in love with your business. I guess both are good, but I like the first one, because I know I can deliver that. The second one… I have yet to see a positioning statement customers fall in love with, with the possible exception of Wal-mart’s old one, which they tragically replaced in 2007: Always low prices. People who love to shop could fall in love with that now-retired USP. (Nathan comments) 3. Testimonials play a role in reason-why copy. It’s just that they’re a little more fact-based and a little less emotional. Here are two examples to compare. I made these up but I could get similar testimonials from a handful of clients very easily, because I’ve had people say these things to me in casual conversation. The reason-why version of a testimonial: “I was reassured after David found unique appealing benefits in our business that we were simply too close to for us to see them ourselves. We feel like our USP is our new ‘secret weapon’ in the marketplace -- even though we will make sure it’s no secret at all!” And the emotional version: “We are so thrilled with the new USP you put together for us. Getting it was like unwrapping a whole bunch of brand-new presents on Christmas morning!” Of course, the first one is more logical and factual. The second one is based on feeling. Just as important, the first one is about utility -- how the client will actually use the new USP. 4. Now lets look at two versions of the offer -- first, a reason-why style offer, and second, an emotional-style offer. The reason-why offer is: This is your opportunity to set your business apart from all others in a way that is important to you AND to your customers. This means you will frequently be the first choice for people and companies you most want to do business with. And the emotional one: Now, at long last, customers will fall in love with your business. And it won’t be a one-night stand, either. It will be a satisfying, long-term relationship! You can see the difference. The first one is definitely impactful. But it’s based on some practical considerations that would make business better for you. The second one is purely emotional. It may be true, but it just as easily could be seen as fantasy. OK, now you’ve got the basics of reason-why copy. If you find you lean way in the direction of reason-why copy, you might want to add more emotion to what you’re doing. And vice-versa. And if I accidentally made you want to get a USP package from me, I don’t even have a web page up for it yet. But you can send me a note using this email address: podcast@davidgarfinkel.com Please put “USP” in the subject line so I can find it quickly. We’re going to put the detailed show notes up today with all the examples and quotes so you can study them if you’d like to get a better idea of reason-why copy. And the email address. The Hotchkiss book is out of print and very hard to find, but if you’d like to try, it’s simply called “Advertising Copy.” Download.

Dr. Doug Pew, award-winning musician and composer, shares his unique method of generating high-quality emails quickly. His journey from being fired to becoming a successful copywriter is inspiring. He discusses the importance of using common sense in highly regulated industries and the recent release of the print version of 'Breakthrough Copywriting'. Doug also talks about using theme and variation in email copywriting, including their experience with writing 60 emails in a week. They mention a new app, loristik.com, that facilitates personal growth and development.

Emotions make the world go round. One particular emotion, and that’s love -- according to the late singer-songwriter from the 60s, Deon Jackson, love is the emotion that makes the world go round most of all. But there are 11 other emotions that make the world go get their credit cards and push the order button. It’s conventional wisdom among a lot of copywriters and marketers that there are only two emotions that do that: greed, and fear. But today we’re going to show you others, that you can use in your copy. We think you’ll be surprised, and by the end of today’s show, you’ll agree with us. You’ll see that each of these emotions, when presented in the right way to your prospect, demands action. And action is what it’s all about. We only had time for half the list last week, so we’ll do a part 2 today and get the other half. Now, embedded in the word “emotion” is the word “motion,” and that’s not just a bunch of lame wordplay. It’s important, because people rarely take action -- that is, they rarely go into motion -- without the motivation of emotions pushing them. And direct response copywriting is all about getting people into motion. If we can understand these emotions well enough to spur them in our prospects, then we stand a chance of making more sales. What’s more, by giving your prospect copy that lets them experience these emotions in relation to how your copy helps them, you make reading your copy a more meaningful experience for them. That’s really important. The list comes from this book by one of David’s favorite writers, Intelligence in the Flesh by Guy Claxton. Guy is a very clear-seeing professor in the UK and he writes about the brain, learning, creativity and in this book, as well, some new insights about the body-mind connection. The list of emotions he put together are drawn from the lifetime work of two geniuses: Professors Paul Ekman from University of California, San Francisco, and the late Jaak Pankseep of Bowling Green University. Just as important, everything about these emotions in the book rings true to me after 30 years in direct-response copywriting. Each of the emotions starts somewhere… has a predictable path… and has an ideal goal at the end, where the emotion is resolved. These emotions don’t stand still. But each of them bugs the person who has that emotion and won’t resolve until the person does something about it. I want to reiterate that happiness is what our prospects want, and if you honestly believe that your product or service can lead to happiness, then you owe it to your prospects not only to tell them, but also to show them by letting them experience the emotional change they want in real life, but first in their imaginations. book: Intelligence in the Flesh, by Guy Claxton https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01344K3O6Download.

Discover how various emotions such as love, greed, fear, distress, and disgust play a vital role in copywriting to drive sales and engage audiences. Learn how tapping into these emotions can motivate action and create meaningful connections with prospects, making reading copy a more impactful experience.

We’re back Carline Anglade-Cole, is a top copywriter with a track record and a level of creativity anyone else would be jealous of. Her latest book is called, “My Life as a 50+ White Male.” That’s because, as a biracial woman, Carline has successfully found a way to get into the mindset of her prospect. Which, as you can imagine, is quite different than she is! Last week, Carline traced back the lessons of her career as an in-house copywriter for Phillips Publishing, and especially her mentorship with the late Clayton Makepeace. She’s back today because she has agreed to share some of her highly valuable freelancer secrets, which everybody needs to hear -- even if you’re not a freelancer! She generously agreed, and that’s what we’ll talk about today. Here is what I asked her: 1. In your new book, you write: “You’ve got to remember, when you’re a freelancer, your first client is YOU!” Sage advice, and I’ve never heard it put quite that way before. How about a couple tips for freelance copywriters on marketing themselves? 2. You were raising your kids both in your time as a team member at Phillips, and as a freelancer. Could you talk about the challenges you faced in your two roles as mom and copywriter, and how you handled the challenges? 3. What were the most important lessons you learned from your first gig, writing the male potency product promo? 4. What are the biggest mistakes you see freelance copywriters making? What should they do instead? 5. This part in your book really impressed me: “If I was not comfortable with the product, why should I try to sell it to my market? These folks are counting on me to look out for them. “I really believe that’s a big reason for my success. It’s much easier to write strong sales copy and get controls when your products actually help people.” Could you talk about that and how it has guided your career? 6. Tell us more about your book! Carline’s new book: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Year-Old-White-Male-Direct-Response-ebook/dp/B08DJDDKPY Download.

Our guest today, Carline Anglade-Cole, is a top copywriter with a track record and a level of creativity anyone else would be jealous of. Her latest book is called, “My Life as a 50+ White Male.” That’s because, as a biracial woman, Carline has successfully found a way to get into the mindset of her prospect. Which, as you can imagine, is quite different than she is! I asked Carline if she would trace back the lessons of her career as an in-house copywriter for Phillips Publishing, and especially her mentorship with the late Clayton Makepeace. She generously agreed, and that’s what we talked about. Here are the questions I asked her: 1. I’m going to guess most people outside direct marketing have no idea what a big publisher like Phillips even is (or was, since Phillips now has a different name). But I also imagine a lot of people in direct marketing who’ve never worked on staff for one of these big publishers think the organizations are different than they really are. When people ask you about working on staff for a company like Phillips, what’s the biggest misconception you find they have -- and what was the reality for you? 2. You had the good fortune to have Clayton Makepeace as a mentor. Could you walk us through a few high points of what it was like to get a copy critique from Clayton? 3. Regarding copywriting, what was the most important thing Clayton every told you? 4. You say in your book that sometimes when you face a tough copy decision, you ask yourself, “What would Clayton do?” Could you tell us about a time or two that happened, what your thought process was, and what you ended up doing? 5. In your book, you write, “Anyone can learn to write in any niche.” Could you explain how that is even possible? (Your male potency supplement story would work well here, if you like.) 6. What’s your advice to women — especially, women of color — who want to make waves writing promo’s for the big publishers? 7. Tell us about your new book! Carline’s new book: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Year-Old-White-Male-Direct-Response-ebook/dp/B08DJDDKPY Download.

Last week we talked about the Big Four questions you need to answer when you’re designing a new product you’d like to sell a lot of. You can also use these questions to fix a product that’s not selling very well. As I said last week, I really got a lot out of interviewing my friend and former mentoring client Chris Haddad over the last two shows. One of the things that struck me about what he said was: That he creates products exactly, or almost exactly, the way he writes sales letters and VSLs. I’ve been doing that for so long myself that I had forgotten most people don’t know about this trick. And if they know about it, they don’t do it. Then, a couple weeks ago, I did a consult for a client who wanted help planning a new product. I realized this would be the perfect opportunity to reverse-engineer what I did and share it with everyone who listens to the podcast. This is information I’ve been using for years, but frankly it’s never occurred to me to share it before. This week we’re going to drill down with seven detailed questions that really help you hone your product’s appeal. Especially after you’ve handled the Big Four questions that cover the big picture. We’re continuing from where we left off last week. If you haven’t watched or listened to that show yet, it might be worthwhile to listen to it first before you listen to this one. Now, I do a lot of copy consults for people, usually on their sales copy after they’ve got the product done and when they’re just about ready to launch. I’ve been able to help people avoid problems and also crank up higher sales with these consultations. But I would be able to help them a lot more if they brought me in at the time they were conceptualizing the product. Most people don’t do that, but one client did last week. In light of what Chris Haddad told us in one of his interviews, I took a lot of notes on my questions. I’m keeping my client’s particular answers confidential, as I always do. But as we get into the seven nitty-gritty questions this week, I’ll fill in answers for one of my products, and I’m hoping Nathan will have some experiences with his own products, or his clients’ products, early on enough in the development cycle so we can show you how this works. These questions really force you to focus on what’s important to your prospect — what’s going to grab their attention right away, and hold it. Use them correctly, and they’ll end up thinking, “Wow! This product was built just for me!”Download.

I really got a lot out of interviewing my friend and former mentoring client Chris Haddad over the last two shows. One of the things that struck me about what he said was: That he creates products exactly, or almost exactly, the way he writes sales letters and VSLs. I’ve been doing that for so long myself that I had forgotten most people don’t know about this trick. And if they know about it, they don’t do it. Then, last week, I did a consult for a client who wanted help planning a new product. I realized this would be the perfect opportunity to reverse-engineer what I did and share it with everyone who listens to the podcast. This is information I’ve been using for years, but frankly it’s never occurred to me to share it before. However, it just did occur to me, so let’s do it. If you are planning to create a new product, or fix one that isn’t very popular… then this will be valuable to you. Now, a lot of people still try to create products using the “Field of Dreams” approach. I’m referring to the Hollywood movie about baseball, which has the memorable, but financially toxic, line in it: “Build it and they will come.” Hey, even Hollywood, which lives in a magical world of its own, doesn’t entirely just build a movie and hope the audiences will come. They do test screenings of different versions of a movie to see which one audiences like better before they release a movie. But we’re not Hollywood, and especially when you’re creating a product for a particular niche, rather than a mass movie-going audience, you have access to better information than Hollywood does when they try to come up with a new movie that’s familiar, yet different. And, if the stars align, something good enough so a lot of people are willing to pay to watch it. I do consultations for people, usually on their sales copy after they’ve got the product done and when they’re just about ready to launch. I’ve been able to help people avoid problems and also crank up higher sales with these consultations. But I would be able to help them a lot more if they brought me in at the time they were conceptualizing the product. Most people don’t do that, but one client did last week. In light of what Chris Haddad told us in one of his interviews, I took a lot of notes on my questions. I’m keeping my client’s particular answers confidential, as I always do. But I’ll fill in answers for one of my products, and I’m hoping Nathan will have some experiences with his own products, or his clients products, early on enough in the development cycle so we can show you how this works. Now, when I did my consultation with my client, she found three missing things in the product she was planning. When she adds those things, I think her sales will later end up being a lot higher. There’s another thing to consider, though. If you can’t answer some of these questions in a way that directly shows what your product is, the way you have planned it, you may need to go back to the drawing board, or abandon the idea altogether. Because… while it’s possible, it’s really hard to sell people something they don’t want. In the show, we go over the Big Four Questions you really need to drill down on to get the product aligned with the prospect’s wants and needs, as well as values, mindset, and their current experience of life. This is part one of a two-part series. We’ll go over some additional important detailed questions in next week’s show.Download.