AI in Education Podcast

To kick off series 6, Dan interviews Ray Fleming about 'What just happened?' in terms of the landing on Generative AI and ChatGPT into society. We lookat how it might change assessment, courses and more. AI Business School Artificial Intelligence Courses - Microsoft AI ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 6 Episode: 1 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Hi, welcome to the AI podcast where we've been exploring all the latest developments and trends in AI over the last few years and the impact they've had on society and education and all kinds of industries. I'm Dan and today we've got a special guest, Ray Fleming. Uh if you remember back in the podcast initial days which was gez about three or four years ago now. Rey and I started this the podcast has kind of morphed and changed and people have come and gone and we've gone full circle back around and welcome Ry. How you doing? I'm I'm good Dan and do you know it makes me feel old when you say three four years ago uh when when the podcast started I think it was five years ago but what is um five years ago where's my life going? It's absolutely fascinating is that I think people think that AI has just started. Yeah. Like people out in the general population, not the people that have been listening to this podcast because they know it's been around for a while, but I think to a huge number of people, AI means that chat thing, that thing that writes stuff for me. And and that's really where they're starting with AI. And I I was looking back last week, I did my first AI course in 2015. That's eight years ago. And Seven years ago, in fact, eight years ago, I was talking about AI to education customers when I was doing keynotes and stuff like that. It was all about AI, but but I think there's this consumer level of friendliness about AI that's happening at the moment. Yeah. And I remember you actually doing the the AI business school course and sharing that with um with customers years ago. Yeah, that was 2019 uh early 2019. So, yeah, five years ago. That is amazing, isn't it? Cuz that that course is just as relevant today. I I I tweeted about it or shared on LinkedIn I think uh like a couple of weeks ago I completely forgot about it and there was there was all these business schools for education and for retail and things like that and it's the content's great. Yeah, it's absolutely relevant. I I think um one of the things I used to say in all of those conferences and keynotes and stuff like that, especially when I was talking with nontechnical people, part of the message is always you've got to start now because you've got to begin to get your understanding. You can't go from zero to 100. And um you know I I think it's the same thing and that you're absolutely right that AI business school course uh that's um on the Microsoft site the learn it's on learn.microsoft.com that course I know has had a bit of an update but really the fundamentals that that course are the same as they were in early 2019 which is the potential to do things very differently. Yeah. And you've had an opportunity now to look outside across multiple like organizations and industries over over your career and you you were able to kind of look across multiple technologies. What kind of other things are kind of appearing to help people learn I suppose about all of this stuff? Cuz cuz I I've got my my kind of biased lens on on where I'm coming from on the things I'm seeing. But I'm sure there's a lot out there, isn't it? I think you're saying some of the best uh if I'm honest. Yeah. Well, you know me, I'm I'm I'm the kind of epitome of lifelong learning. So, if I'm not if I'm not running a course and studying a course, then there's something wrong with me. So, I've done about nine AI courses since wow 2015. So, 2015 then there was a bit of a gap. Then 2019 uh onwards I I've done all kinds of courses. I've done uh data and ethics uh and AI which of course is fascate. Oh, I did a generative AI course of course. Um, the AI business school you mentioned. Uh, I did a AI for product managers. So, it was about how do you manage product? I remember you saying that. Yeah. Yeah. And and they're all they're all good. They're all really good. But I say I would say that AI business school is a really good structure if you're nontechnical. Actually, forget the nontechnical. If you're nontechnical, it's good. If you are technical, it's good too because it helps you to relate the wizzy fantastic things your technology can do to the business problems that everybody is trying to solve. And you know the way I talk about this Dan it's okay to say business problems in education because the educ the business of education has you know a lot of things and processes and things it's trying to do and those are business problems. So that uh AI business school and then probably dive down I would say into the ethics and responsibility piece because that's really important. So I would jump from the Microsoft learn courses to Corsera and pick something that really interests you on Corsera around AI like the ethics piece uh like the privacy and and AI piece because all of those things are interrelated because you mentioned that responsibility. What I'm seeing at the minute now is currently just from my zone of reference being my LinkedIn feeds and things I'm seeing a lot of the folks whether in departments of education or um universities things start to sort of settle but people just creating responsible AI standards or principles or or that kind of element and I know we've spoken to people and we've spoken about responsible AI in the past for quite a lot of time but it seems to be like I don't know like a cycle the things have happened the cats out of the bag or whatever and things are happening and now people are trying to come to the table with policy we've seen something from the EU I think this week or one of the EU countries or maybe in the UK you know there's been big catchups with Richie Sunna there's been a lot of this policy happening now you know and I suppose we in June and when I when I sent a message out to all the CIOS that I manage in my particular role in December you know happy Christmas blah blah blah I sent out an email uh and said by the way you might want to try this chat GPT thing you might want to read Brad Smith's book about tools and weapon funds and you might want to read um a couple of other things and you know lo and behold we come back in January February time and then the GPT tools have just gone through the roof. What are your thoughts first of all on what's happened in the last 6 months and then where we are now. Yeah. I mean I mean there's only one thing that history will remember has happened in the last 6 months which is the it's the a magical creation of generative AI which of course It's been around forever, but it made the leap, didn't it, from a technical thing to something that every consumer could get their head around because you went to this website and said, you know, write my homework essay in some cases or tell me about write 300 words about this and suddenly it became really relatable to people. And so I think that's the thing that is going to unlock a lot of the conversations and a lot of the potential in the future. And Most people can relate to it. And most people got that magic smile when they went and asked a question and saw this computer typing something for them and went, "How does it do that? How how does it do that?" And and so that that's probably the biggest thing if I'm honest that has happened not in the technology sphere because there'll be a whole bunch of things and people will be going, "Yeah, but GPT 3.5 wasn't as good as GPT 4.0 and 4.0 can't pass this medical test." Like, forget all of the detail. Yeah. The big thing is suddenly all this AI is meaningful to people because they can get it to do a task that they can truly understand. But then you've had all of these applications which have been developed since then based on that technology you know any games platform or whatever somebody create something some bit of hardware and it's the the brains that build the things on top of that and the people coming from industry and going oh we could use that for this application and we see we've seen a lot of that in the last six months I I had not an interview meeting this morning at 9:00 with a company from Ireland um which had developed generative AI into an assessment tool you know and and it was great and they just developing on top of that those things. So we've seen a lot of that but then now we're at this position where I suppose people are looking at responsible ethics and really in a frenzy to work out what do we do about this? Yeah. So let's let's draw a little bit of a picture of uh where we are, what's happening and then where where where that all comes in. So yeah, you know, first of all, we had generative AI, which is just awesome to say that phrase because everyone understood the chatbot or the open AI and then the tech industry said, "Oh, no, that's too short a word. Let's call it generative AI." So, so first of all, we had that and um of course the students got on it first and they went, "Oh, I could use that helping me with my essays." Um and I know that because in some of the online courses I was doing, there's peer-to-peer assessment of uh some of the activities. So, it's like, yeah, think about the stuff you've learned, do 600 words about how you would apply it. And, uh, three or four times I was asked to peer review somebody else's work that started with the sentence, I'm only a chatbased large language model. So, I can't really do this, but dot dot dot and and so, you know, obviously another student on the course had just gone and put the question into chat GPT, got the answer, copy based not smart enough to rem remove the first paragraph that said I'm only a large language model. Um but there kind of is a question that if you can write it with an AI shouldn't you like actually you should you know and so there's a whole question about the future of assessment based on consumer tools that students have access to and and that point there as well the other thing that in terms of a perfect storm where you're saying that students went into this first part the other thing I'd add from an Australian perspective is all of the teachers are down tools at that time in January time from December to January doing planning and then suddenly people started to do their planning work use you know playing with chat GBT and then going oh this has just done my planning for me you know plan my lesson for for year seven chemistry but try to put a spin on it of Marvel characters or all of these kind of weird and wonderful things or write a rubric for me on this and suddenly like there was that that element as well from a teaching point of view So, so there was a I I I would say I would challenge you a little bit and say that there was a point in maybe for for three days in January where teachers were ahead of the students with CH GPT. Yeah. But but I think individuals have been you know it's been a race for individuals and then it's the system problem isn't there is so so one of the things that I've been watching really interestingly over the last few months is this whole thing about how do we detect that students are using AI in their assignments and how do we stop it? And that's just a that's just an arms race because, you know, I I I don't honestly believe we're going to be able to solve that problem because somebody will build a uh an open AI model that uh generates things that cannot be detected by anybody else. And so there's the kind of race between the detectors and the non-detectors. And but there's also the thing of the AI system is blackbox and the text the detector is also blackbox. You don't know how it decided that that thing was or wasn't written by a robot. And so you can't do that in education if you are going to start making judgments on students saying well this was created by an AI if you cannot be absolutely sure you know um you know the easiest way to build a a absolutely 100% sure of finding AI detector is to say that every single thing is written by AI. So if In the world of AI thinking, and I think we've talked about this on the podcast enough, the true positives like finding AI written text and being sure and detecting it, the easiest way is to say everything was written by AI. Yeah. Um, now unfortunately, you then get a whole load of work that wasn't written by AI that gets labeled that way. And if you look at the tech detectors, they've got very high rates of finding things, but they've also got what I would say are high rates of falsely finding things. Something written by a human and it says it was written by AI and even if it's only 10% that means three children in the class 30 students in a big engineering class whatever are going to be accused of writing something with uh chat GPT and they've got no way of going no no no it was me I I sat down and wrote it I I read um a really good example where um international students where English is a second language um often They will write their essay in their home language and then use a translation system and then polish it up to put it into English. Pretty much all the detectors say that those essays have been written by an AI system because of the style that comes from the translator. The assessment element to this I think if this disrupts enough of of assessment now saying that I thought COVID might have disrupted universities and things you know for more unis than I do. But I would have thought that CO would have disrupted hybrid learning more than it did. You know, everybody's clicked back into class face toface learning. Um, we can really think about different ways to assess now. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, we're going to have to the future of assessment I think is up in the air at the minute because the way that we've solved the problem you think about the way we handle it in COVID is more and more inspection of the learner when they're taking the assessment. You know, we all did a professional exam or something during COVID where we had to show the uh invigilator around the room with our laptop camera. You know, I remember my mom was like, "Make sure there's nothing printed on the ceiling. Now, show me the underside of your desk to show there's nothing there." Um, you know, so that for mumbling cuz I read questions out. So, I was like, you know, if I get a question on a proed test, I always go, you know, I'll read the question. I don't know why I do that. This guy said, "Please stop mumbling." Sorry. Well, look, if we keep on that angle, the only person that will be able to pass the assessments are robots because humans won't. So, we've got to work out the future of assessment. I think we talked about in the Christmas special things like, you know, set the homework to be go and get chap GPT to write your homework for you, then show me how you've improved that and corrected errors because that's what people are going to do when they get into the world of work. Both of my children are out there doing professional marketing jobs and they're using ChatGpt to create content for them in ways that I wouldn't have imagined six months ago. So people are going to use it in the workplace. So we've got to think about how how we model for that. But on the other side, on the positive side of it, isn't it great for busy work? And and by busy work, I mean uh you've got to have your lesson plan in this format. You've got to have your curriculum document done like this when when you know I mean you you would have had it when you were a teacher, Dan. You've got your favorite lessons that absolutely you just draw out the bag on a wet Friday afternoon because the kids are going to be b instead of knocking holes in the wall. Now you can pull out that favorite lesson and say, "I need a lesson plan that's 422 words that fits in this box, which before you would have wasted time doing because it would be easier for you to describe it or show somebody than to write it down. So that kind of busy work, that's great for that." The one in higher education is research publications. The amount of time that reaches researchers spend reformatting it according to the rules of each specific publication. I don't know if there's an AI out there for that, but they're blooming well to me. Yeah, that's a really good example of busy work. I was just on the the research site. I remember when I was doing my masters and I I I forget the name of the first part of a dissertation out, but it's that where you do your research study and you do you go in and you do the qualitative research and you read the body of evidence and and and all of this kind of stuff. And you know, it it' be good to like just using things to summarize a lot of the the the pro was written, you know, and getting extracts of this stuff out and getting some what my my son did a good example of this the other day cuz I I asked him to use chat GPT for some of his English work cuz he was reading Handmaid's Tale and he was really struggling with this. So I got I got him on the computer and I said, "Look, ask the Bing chat, the Bing was using I said ask him to um ask her to summarize chapter one of the Handmaid's Tale and and he just did each chapter at the time, you know, in like three or four kind of sentences or bullet points and he just he could he got the gist of the book for his um he hasn't his results yet but it just gave him that and and I know it doesn't you know he's so he could be seen as cheating but he probably did more work on that than he would have I don't think he would have read the book I really don't think he would would have read the book at all he he started and he was finding it really hard but I think you know the next stage is going to be like personalized models you know personalized trained with your own data whether it's an institution level you level, a national level, you a global level, you know, the the personalized learning, the personalized AI system for biologists or for people studying computer science or whatever it might be. And and I think we'll start at kind of individual institution level because it'll take a while to bring it together at state or national levels. Um, but it we'll we'll end up with some really personalized stuff rather than the general stuff that's available. And that's where you might start to get something where you start to build real student helpers um that are designed to do that kind of thing. Uh we'll also get the return of the thesaurus. Dan, you're you remember when you were a kid, you would have had a thesaurus. Um because it sounds like your son would have needed that because they would have taken the uh information from chat GPT and it's like I've got to rewrite it into my own words. Where's my thesaurus? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so true, isn't it? I know my daughter. So if thesaurus is huge. She takes a d she got every year got to buy the mccquory dictionary the mccquory thesaurus cuz we never find it seems to it goes into the school's library somewhere along the line I'm sure in lost property but it's huge but it's such a good point in terms of those tools you've seen that have come out personally you know I'm sure you've played with some of these as they've gone through what's really excited you which ones have excited you most have you seen any good applications you know generally it hasn't got to be an education context anything back back to where we started from the chat GPT the open AI stuff that's the most exciting thing because it's made it accessible to the everyday consumer you know there are no barriers for people to start using that the visual stuff you know midjourney you and I probably both follow on Twitter people that use midjourney a lot cleaves put some great stuff with midjourney you know I'm not so much of a visual designer as I am thinking about words and data and things like that so I'm loving watching that stuff. And every now and again, one of the things I did over over COVID, Dan, was I became an improviser. And I do um I've got a am I allowed to spru things? I'm I'm doing two man show in the Sydney Fringe Festival in September. All of the visuals for that were created by MidJourney. Oh, wow. Really? That's fantastic. You know, it's it's those kind of things. I'm also excited by a completely new professional that's going to come along which is prompting which is how do you get AI to give you the results that are the best results. So that that whole art and skill about learning how to prompt AI to give you the results that you want and um that's going to get pretty interesting. It's quite a technical thing at the moment in the sense that you need to understand quite a lot to be able to be to do it well but I think that's going to become another skill alongside the other technical skills that we all need to do our jobs. You know, meaning you're a designer, you need to have visual communication skills. Well, probably most people are going to need AI prompting skills. Yeah, I I agree. I I had this conversation yesterday um with with with my partner actually. She we were talking about um chat GBT and I think lots of people like sometimes you forget again when we're in technology that that everybody's using this, you know, and we get caught in our own like bubble again, don't we? And like I watching like you said, Pip doing her stuff and and Julian ridden. I know he's doing quite a lot in that area as well. And and Pip's doing something where she is doing prompt engineering each month to see how good the quality of the images are. So, she does the same prompt every month to see what what comes up with some Japanese art that she puts in there, which and the characterization in there is is phenomenal the way it's it's improving. Um, but I still think are are we going to start to miss out people again and and create digital divide? Because, you know, when I was talking to my partner yesterday, I said, "Oh, you've got to try to use chat GBT, you know, put some prompts in there or whatever, but I think people are not aware of the depth of that it's a conversation, that it's not search, you know, I don't think everybody's immersed in it like we are, you know, and and I think some people don't just assume it's like search, you know, please write me like this thing or work this formula out for me and then it comes back with a incorrect answer and they go, "Oh, well that's bloody rubbish." And then they move on, you know, and it's like, well, you got to keep you got to it's like a child. You got to keep persuading and go, No, that's not what I meant. You know, what I'm trying to say is this, and you got to keep rephrasing and referencing and building the the model. But I think the speed of of that change is phenomenal. If you think about, let's go back to the other big inventions of the last h 100red years. Yeah. Or 200 years. You've got the invention of the telephone and the television and everything. And that was all going to ruin society. And you know, the reason that kids were dropping out of school was because somebody invented the telephone. phone or the book or the bro. Um, and so I think this is a similar one of those things is it's going to be misunderstood uh to start with, but my goodness, the speed that things are changing compared to other technologies and the speed that it's being adopted by and understood by people is way faster than other technologies. I know that because of the people that I socialize with that are not in technology because I've got some friends that aren't involved in technology. at all. Amazing. I know. Um, but it's really interesting having them tell me things about how they can use chat GPT and the experiments they've done and it's just awesome. I get great ideas from them about things that you can do. So, I I think yes, there are there is a a phase in which it's misunderstood and the true potential isn't in isn't um brought out of it, but it's going to be pretty small compared to other new technology coming in in the past which has taken I mean we used to talk about decades for adoption of things and then we started talking about years for adoption of things while we know that you know we're in months now but you know you still need to get socializing it with people the smart people are doing their jobs faster and better using chat GPT and so the person sitting next to them is going to spot that they've done their work faster and it's going to say how do you do that yeah I'm interested to see that because you mentioned about your daughters there and I'm I mean just to see how current generation who just might gone to university learn learned about writing literature you know copywriting whatever and then um how they embrace that change cuz we always think that younger people will go and pick up whatever app and do whatever but you know it'll be it be interesting to see have you have you had much feedback from your daughters about it do they just think it's amazing or are they a bit cynical? No they know how to use it so they just use it for the things it's good for. you know, if they've got to write something in their corporate style, they won't use it. Uh, my daughter's office, they're having a day out of the office, and part of that is kind of um they need to fill some gosh, I hope nobody from my daughter's firm is listening to this in the future. They're doing a an architectural treasure hunt around the city. And so, she said I needed to to set some clues. So, I just got chat GPT to write riddles about the things that they're going to be going to. So, yeah. Oh gosh. One is going to get advantage of the listening Sydney Opera House. It wrote a riddle about Sydney Opera House as a clue. And it's I would never have thought of doing that. And so, you know, that's a really good example of, you know, the kids get this stuff. And and and they're not kids, they're fully grown adults, but true. You know, yeah, they they get it. And and I don't think it's an age thing as it often is with technology or often been accused of being with technology. It's actually are you willing to try doing something in a way you've never done? it before and learn along the journey. And I think there's a lot of people that are in that box. They're just happy to go and try something. I agree. And and I think the one of the one of the interesting ones for me, you know, in in terms of what I I've seen out out of this was was something that one of uh my ex-colagues back in the UK, Chris Goodall, did and um he shared it with me and I've shared it with some teachers over here. What what he did, he asked he was in Bing AI again and he went in and he said um uh he showed me slides on his great so basically said, "Look, I want to run faster and jump higher than anybody else has ever done in history. What do I need?" And he kept prompting. He prompted it for three times. And then basically chatbot came back, you know, GPT came back and kind of said, "Look, you need a shoe that's got enough spring in it, but also it's got to be light enough to move forward." And he was asking questions, what material should he use, and then he said, "Could you design this for me using prompts?" So, uh, like which I could put in into Midjourney and basically he had another conversation with it and it prompted him to actually put into Midjourney which he then put into Midjourney and it created this phenomenal athletic shoe that had never been created. So, so from his idea of what he wanted to do, it had gone through this conversation then gone in and app smashed into a completely different app and then created this like shoe that had never been seen before. That that for me was a great moment of you know really originality coming through there and creativity. in the way that that was that was prompting it was it was fantastic. But it did need the human vision at the beginning and during the process to go I've got this idea and and you know legion yeah I think people are worried that you know AI is going to rule the world and we're not going to have jobs and anything to do but actually many many many of the scenarios I see start with human creativity and they get guided by human creativity along the way and and so that's good for us all but it's also good for you know, remembering the innately human skills that we all bring to any situation that that that's going to get emphasized because that's the bit that you won't be able to replicate. Let's get rid of the boring stuff and give it to Well, I give a good example of this. Um, there's a podcast I follow who's a guitar like um person called Rick Bato out to the US and there's a band called PI I think they called and there's a guitarist there called Tim Henson who and and he interviewed guy and basically he's a young guy who's who uses AI to create uh guitar music that he can play. So if the AI is making him like uber creative so like Rick Bat who's like a stunning musician and sort music for all conservariums and he's a producer and things and he's watching this guy playing the guitar and you can see his disbelief because it doesn't fit within the norms of how you learn. not teach or even play. You wouldn't play you'd never play this note with this note and you'd never play these things, but the AI is just basically mashing it together and and composing something that this guy can play and like which is is unreal. So, it's it's boosting the creativity and then allowing that that creative spark to kind of be developed even further. So, let me tell you about three things I'm excited for for the future because it fits exactly into that. So, the first thing is I'm excited that we're going to get rid of the boring stuff. So, things like having to read emails, especially the the corporate emails that somebody has crafted very very carefully that you have to read five times to understand what they're saying. So, uh write writing admin documents, you know, we we all have that kind of thing. And do more fun stuff. So, get rid of the boring stuff and do more fun stuff, more of that human human interaction thing. Second thing is I'm excited by the potential of nontechnical leaders to understand the potential of AI. You know, they're they're all hooked. They've all found a thing. And so that's going to uplevel everybody because um often those non-technical leaders have viewed technology with suspicion, but now they can it's much more relatable to them. They still have some suspicion about what's going on in the background, but you know, getting nontechnical people engaged, understanding, and um wanting to take advantage of the potential that that's the second exciting thing for the future. And then I think the third one coming right back to education is the potential for personalized learning at scale. Um and and what I don't mean is some of the examples I've seen at the moment where you get a computer voice to simulate uh to simulate you get a computerenerated video of a head and you put together a training video. I mean that kind of thing. But taking the learning resources and the learning journeys we have at the moment and personalizing them for the starting point of an individual and the end point they want to be at. Um, personalizing it for, you know, somebody with the reading age of 12 probably needs could get get the same resource that you have for a PhD student, but rewrite it personalized down to somebody with a reading age of 12 or 10 or whatever it might be. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. As somebody who is an as English as a second language. Um, currently they have to a lot of learning is inaccessible to them because they, you know, that it's written in such a way that I barely understand some of the words and I have my dictionary tutorials next to me. You know, imagine somebody that's just arrived from a third country and they're having to do all of that, the barriers they've got. Just think about what you could do with some of the generative AI stuff to say, um, you know, take this reading and make it access to people who don't have English as a first language and just watch the magic happen. That that kind of so many potential ideas for how we could personalize learning. It's a great way to bring things together because like that that was my question where where things would be going in the future and I think you kind of encapsulated that really well. Is is there anywhere is anybody you you'd follow at the minute? I mentioned a couple of people and everybody's doing different things in these. Are there people that that you follow at the minute in the community and in education that um you share here. I I know for me, you know, PIP definitely around that mid midjourney stuff and I mentioned Julia, there's a guy down in South Australia who's amazing called Dr. Nick Jackson and he's he's really bringing on bringing on the student agency discussions around this and bringing students in on the conversation as well and he can see the impact and see the change. So, he's doing some amazing stuff and I mentioned earlier my ex-colagues, Chris Goodall in the UK, he's picked it up and really ran with it and he's really sharing some great practice this and and some great insights into that and and leading the way there. Any any people from your professional learning network that jump out? Yeah, the top end there's people like Simon Buckingham Shan UTS you know he's been doing a lot on learning analytics and by extension uh machine learning and AI with data doing some great work around the the institutional policy side. The other is Matt Eastman's talking about this a lot. Oh yes yes you know and and the great benefit of Matt is, you know, came from the classroom. So, it's not one of those, oh, I know what you should all do things. It's I know what I would have done if I'd had this. He's great. Phil Dawson, Philip Dawson at Philip Dawson, he's doing some great stuff around assessment and some of the conversations around assessment, but as part of that, doing some really good insights into how this all works. Um, and so, yeah, I I'm definitely getting value from those three as well. Yeah, that's brilliant. Well, well, thanks for coming back and and saying hi, Ray. I think we're going to be rebooting the podcast coming up. So, like I'm sure this is not the last time we're going to chat and we should keep this conversation going to kind of really support everybody out in this area because things are moving so quickly. Really, really are. So, thanks for jumping in today and sharing your insights. It's great to kind of uh chat again and um thanks so much. Brilliant. Thanks, Dan. See you soon. Bye. See you soon. Bye.

Welcome to this week's episode of the podcast! We have a special guest – Ray Fleming, a podcast pioneer, educationalist, and improv master. Join Dan, Lee, Beth, and Ray as we discuss the events of 2022 and look forward to the future and the holidays. We have some interesting resources to share with you: ChatGPT: Optimizing Language Models for Dialogue (openai.com) DALL·E 2 (openai.com) Looking for some holiday reading recommendations? Check out these books: Broken: Social Systems and the Failing Them by Paul LeBlanc (https://www.amazon.com.au/Broken-Social-Systems-Failing-Them/dp/1637741766) Hack Your Bureaucracy: 10 Things That Matter Most by Marina Nitze and Nick Sinai (https://www.amazon.com.au/Hack-Your-Bureaucracy-Things-Matter/dp/0306827751) And don't forget to check out the article about how Takeru Kobayashi "redefined the problem" at the world hotdog eating championship: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-takeru-kobayashi-changed-competitive-eating-2016-7 We hope you enjoy the episode! This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own. ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 12 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Welcome to the AIA podcast. How are you, Liam Beck? Awesome, Dan. Awesome. Great to be back. Fantastic. Thank you, Dan. Yeah, I just came back from the UK, so it's snowing there. Coming up to Christmas. This is the first time I felt Christmas snow for some time, actually. So, it's lovely to be back in the warm. Have you guys been busy? really busy. So, it's uh obviously it's um gearing up to the end of the year, doing lots of things to get um get all the work done, but also trying to manage my daughter's excitement and enthusiasm for this time of year. Um speaking of snow, I'm almost predicting that it will snow here in uh Adelaide. It's been that cold. Wow, that is crazy. Beth, snow in Adelaide. You're basically in the desert, aren't you? I am wearing my Ugg boots as we speak. Um, so it has been freezing. It has been freezing. So got half an hour on the podcast and half an hour outside just waiting for that first uh flicker of snow to come down. You never know. And Dan and I are not what an hour and a half, twoour flight away from you. And it is 28 degrees outside. Glorious sun. I'm going to be going for a swim after this. So how is how how different is the world that we we occupy? That's right. That's Have you both set Have you both set your trees up and things? at home. Do you do that? Oh, yes. I I I start thinking about it in September, which I know is um not ideal, but uh we we have the Adelaide Christmas pageant actually, which is the signal to all South Australians that it's permissible to put your tree up. And that's middle of November. So, my tree has been up for quite some time, and it will probably be up for quite some time into January before I finally feel the need to take it down. I'm going to go get my tree today. You need to get onto it. And we we're in our house. We're hitting an interesting point, inflection point without giving too much away to our listeners because I don't want to break any longheld situations that my children are of an age where Christmas is something different to them, shall we say? And so I had to tell them, hey, get the tree up and start decorating it because they're like, oh no, we're busy doing things with our friends now. It's that and it's so sad. It's so sad to see it all sort of fade away at away. So to to today's podcast, we've got a fantastic podcast pioneer guest, special guest for our fi finale of the season and the year. Um, I'm going to introduce him right now, Lee and Beth. And it is Ray Fleming, our amazing first podcast pioneer, a great friend, and our only listener. Um, I'm I'm I'm loving the segue, Dan, that we went from sad to ray. Hello. Hi, Ray. How are you? I am fantastic. And uh I'm going back to the UK for Christmas for the first time in four years. So, I'm looking forward to that snow. When you when you live, right? Uh I'm going I'm going to just down the road from Diddly Squat, the uh Jeremy Clarkson farm in the Cotswwell. You really? Yeah. Oh, that that's such a good show. That you when you flying? You're flying next week? Uh yeah, I'm I'm going Christmas Eve. because flights are so expensive at the minute. Oh, yes. And uh so I I've leared to plan ahead, which is something I've never normally done in my life. But if you fly on Christmas Eve from Australia, you'll land on Christmas Eve. So happy days. Exactly. Double one. Double Christmas Eve. Ray, it's absolutely wonderful to have you back on these airwaves. It's uh it's been too long, hasn't it, Ray? Oh gosh, it's been a long time. I mean, I've I've heard your voices on a regular basis because I have continued listening to the podcast. I I will admit I've not listened to every single one, but it's just so lovely seeing seeing um the what what what is it they say? Seeing the old team back together, getting the band back together. That's it. That's it. Yeah, we we I um I was uh I've managed to join and and drive it further into the snow, shall we say? But it's been a great experience. I've loved it. And um it sounds like if you haven't listen to every episode. You're going to do really badly in the end of uh podcast quiz that we've planned for you, Ray. Oh gosh. In episode 12, season two. Oh no, that was the one. That was the one where Dan forgot what he was supposed to say. Oh, well that could be any of them. Any of them. Yeah, we're only joking. It is It is It is great to see you. And look, you know, for for me who stepped in, you know, into your shoes, so to speak. And then for Beth who's joined us and really helped me fill out both those shoes. I' I'd love to learn like when you guys started this, which was what now? Probably four or five years ago. I think it's coming up four, isn't it? It's about three, I think it was. Well, we're season five now. So, yeah, it was September 2019 when we first started it. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Well, look, you don't want to hear us. I want to hear you talk, Ray. What got you started, Ray? How did you even What did you and Dan come up with? Oh, do you know? Well, the basic thing that what got me started is who who wouldn't want to spend an hour in a room with Dan every week. I mean that that was the that was the thing and and also the excuse to talk to Dan um about things that that we were both fascinated by. And I remember I went to Dan and I said, "Dan, I've got this crazy idea." And he said, "I love crazy ideas." Except he did it in his Welsh accent. And and that was it. And and we set off with this goal of, "Well, how often should we do a And and I think I think it was Dan that said people can never get enough of me. So we decided to do it weekly and and thank God sanity prevailed after a while. But yeah, we did it weekly for the first six months. That's crazy. Wow. That's right. And and I it was interesting, wasn't it? Because it was positioning um the the kind of thought of AI at that particular point. You know, it was just on the cusp. Things are happening, but there was a lot of um confusion out there and a lot of kind of uh things that were happening which are good and bad and we did an episode on good and bad and evil and evil and good and we had to face off against that Ray. That was quite fun. I remember that episode really well and and I love that you say there was a lot of confusion out of there because I remember one of the joys of recording with you was that there was pretty a fair amount of confusion in the microphones as well because we came in with opposite perspectives quite often like we describe things in different ways or we we were looking at through different lenses. And that was really I think quite useful to to have that conversation about oh yeah that's interesting but I see it differently. Yeah it's it's because you are you know I mean quite different points of view on it and I think in some ways that was probably the beauty of it was the fact that you were sort of I remember you used to have an episode with Dan or maybe an episode with Rain and sometimes episodes together. Um and it kept it interesting you know it kept it kind of kind of moving forward. What what was the goal like what were you looking to achieve in doing this other than you know talking to Dan as you said I I I so for me I think it was we knew that AI was emerging at that point and nobody could really predict the future like no nobody would have got where we are today I think thinking about it so it was almost like well let's live the future as we're going and let's talk about it and and then I think the other driver was the curiosity like I'm curious about this stuff Dan was curious about this stuff how could we spread that curiosity so that other people didn't just see AI to one extent and and things around it as as a black box. It's like let's let's understand it more. And I think that's where we were coming from in those early days was there's this amazing thing. How can we how can we understand it and do that out loud so that other people can follow us. So it was much about your own understanding, wasn't it? Oh, for yourself as a journey. It's always one of those things though, isn't it? It's when you teach something um you always you kind of learn it better, don't you? Like I remember that when I was teaching in the classroom, it was the the lessons you had to prepare for. Uh often when you were teaching things that you knew the subject matter off quite well, um you you'd kind of uh blur the lines a little bit and it wouldn't be as effective in terms of the detail. But those lessons, I remember I had to step in for one of the lecturers once doing classics and I knew nothing about classics. So I he was away for like a month. So I had to teach the Roman civilization and and I had you know I had to learn it all and And then my lessons in in in classics were miles better than my IT lessons. Um, which was my subject matter expert, you know, area. You know, I suppose when you teach things, you learn a little bit more and you learn to kind of uh talk about it in in a different perspective and maybe in a different level of detail for for the for the audience because I think Rey, you pinned me down at one point with this and you were going, who are the audience for this, Dan? Who is our audience? And we were drawing out the personas. when you when you're developing a podcast and you think who are we trying to speak to here? Who are the people and you know is it can't be too generic but then again it can't be too specific and you end up getting caught up in in all of the naming of the podcast and you know and all of these kind of things. So it was a really interesting time right at the beginning. It sounds familiar actually isn't it? Yes it does. You mean nothing's gotten better. We just we're still as uh as unclear about what we're doing here. Oh no. A big improvement I think. that thanks to the pandemic is you don't need to spend an hour in a room with Dan. You could do it over the line now. Well, it's funny you say that, but you know, in the early days when I stepped into your shoes, Ra, if I can use that phrase, we were really struggling with this idea because it was all over, you know, over teams recording like this and it there was this it felt like you guys have engineered such a really quality experience because you had proper equipment. We went to a room, you had mics and then it was just, you know, initially Dan and I on teams with whatever quality audio we could pull together. Um but I think in some ways that becomes the character of the show. It becomes a bit like you know rough and ready if you like as a to describe it. But yes yeah the quality of the conversation improved even even the technical bits didn't. We've had a lot of fantastic guests this year. I've got to say obviously Ry yourself is you were the jewel in the crown but um I think one of the things that um that I reflect on when I think about this podcast is just the the the breadth of topics we've covered, but also the different types of people we've had on to share their stories and um and their perspectives. And it's uh as as we think about where we're going to take the podcast next year, it it's an exciting opportunity to reflect on what we what we've covered, but you know, what what are people asking for? What what kind of content is really going to engage people going forward? I think one of my favorites actually as well, Beth, was you you connected with knowing and and like listening back on this season, Jan was just phenomenal. She was such a wealth of information and she had such a human I don't even know describe it. She had very humanistic approach to her thoughts on education and the use of technology in that particular area cuz we we we'd gone around and we interviewed people in technology around sustainability and things like that and we deviated from education but then when when we had her on you know it was very much about skills, but she was really um quite thoughtful in some of her responses. I I really loved that episode this season. I agree. Yeah, she was absolutely fantastic. I I think when I look back on it, the show really peaked around season 2, episode 5. That was kind of that I think you just had this really quality speaker on. He was the national technology officer for Microsoft Australia. Really quality. I was quickly looking through the notes. I was thinking it took me a second, didn't know, but I but I was looking back at the notes because I was one questions M Ray had said but he was absolutely right and I want to ask you about it the pace at which you were doing these back then you were started in in it was I think it's September 2019 but you were banging them out almost one a week it was almost one every week or week and a half did you do that how did you get that like because I see how much work it is now it must have been hard work back then like consuming a lot of your time do you know the hardest work was the editing afterwards like like there were some great moments and there were some terrible moments and probably the editing was the terrible moment and and the reason was certainly for me I didn't realize how many times I said um and I was determined to not let that stupidity come through on the podcast and so I took out all of my ums and because I was good to Dan I took out the three of his as well but listening to your own voice every week yes gosh that can be that can be wearing I I I remember you actually recorded I think before one of the Christmas episodes you you put all my arms together it was like five minutes worth of mys and h and I I don't know if that's still online, but if it is, that is an excellent. If it isn't, we need to attach it to this episode as as a bonus special. That would be great. I think it was I think it was December 19. Is it as a song? I' I'd love to see the charts. It was great actually. It's really good. Good out takes. And I think when people are listening to this podcast now over Christmas, they're trying to make it topical, but also thinking about out there in different ways to also bring that human element into it as well. I think we've been talking more about and at the end of this episode we're going to share our um top tips for Christmas and like gadgets you might be thinking about or things we might have got in line for our Christmas presents without sharing too much detail if the kids are listening. Uh you know lots of things like that which we've added as we've gone through and things work and some things don't. Yeah, it's been a we've experimented with lots of different things I think over the time which has been part of the problem Ray I guess. as you've been a listener is as a journey we've you know we started as you started the AI and education podcast and we became a bit of the AI podcast and then we became the technology podcast and now we're the kind of the storytelling podcast we it's yeah it's it's been it's evolved a lot I think it's fair to say you can see so much change so quickly across the breadth of the podcast but even just in the last year and the one thing that jumped into my mind was NFTTS and crypto I think earlier on in the year we did an episode on blockchain and metaverse and you know the tailwinds for the metaverse and NFTs and crypto and then in the last six months you know things are going going down the pan with crypto yeah how can you predict these things you know you mentioned there Ray about predicting what was coming up and having some idea it's almost impossible isn't it from year to year from month to month at the minute it's it's amazing as well I I feel that there's a little bit of the journey that we've gone on with AI where it's like the Wizard of Oz somebody's pulled back the curtain and there's just a guy rolling rolling the rollers because I I've been listening this this last week to the Robo Royal Commission and and I remember a few months ago thinking it was a terrible weapon of math destruction that AI had gone wrong and now I know it was a formula in a spreadsheet. It was like one cell in a spreadsheet that went wrong and it's got nothing to do with AI. So, you know, it's fascinating to kind of see the the workings behind some of the things. I I read somewhere that a lot of um startups are pitching themselves to venture capitalists as being AI driven, but they're really human driven. Um, they'll do the AI bit next once they've got the the funding. It it's it's funny you bring that one up. Oh, sorry, Beth. You got No, no, I was just going to say it sounds a little bit like Theronos, which was um, you know, the medical research equivalent of of that exact thing. You know, you sell the bells and whistles and the vision, but actually you're still doing the manual work behind the scenes, and it's Um, there's still a gap in terms of what the vision is and actually what you're doing in real life except for the fact maybe that Elizabeth Holmes made it all up and at least AI does kind of exist for that I suppose. But but yeah, it's but you're absolutely right. I hope it's not that bad. But I I was going to comment on the because you brought up robo debt and I think that's a really timely one and and not in any way to unell the massive impact that had on many people's lives. But it's not really AI, it's technology mis abused, it's data abused, but it's become the It's become the poster child for why AI is a problem in our world and I think that's really dangerous path we're on. So yeah and and just listening to the the commission what's really clear is it was a group of it seems to be a group of people were determined to make this thing happen and the technology was used as the tool for that and you know I think often we talk about biases in AI and I know you talk about it heaps over the the last three years um but It's a really good reminder that you can set out with the with the wrong intention but use the right technology to deliver the wrong intention. And you know that situation hasn't changed. No, agreed. So look, I think um we could talk about uh not so much the looking back on the show. I think it's been great to kind of look at some of those episodes and you guys really covered so much in that short time. Before we start looking to where we go to next and the world of AI that we're living in, I'd love to get a s if you have if your memory still serves you. Do you have highlights and low lightss of that time? I mean, things that you remember when you did the podcast, you just think, "Oh, that was just nailed it." kind of moment. Oh, two two moments for me. Um, one, there's the uh we'll cut that one out. Two moments for me. One was after the first podcast when we just had this little spidery uh mind map about the things we're going to talk to and I think it had six things on it and it was supposed to be for 25 minutes. and it was exactly 24 and a half minutes and the mics went off and I turned to Dan and said, you know, I think that worked and it was it was just like we've got this idea and we made it work. Um, the other best moment was this started as a skunk works project. We couldn't work out whether we were officially allowed to do a Microsoft podcast about AI in education, but we couldn't work out that we weren't allowed to either. And so, so what did is we said, "Well, why don't we start it and we'll do it, but we we won't put the Microsoft name to it. We'll just we'll just do it." And uh we got three weeks in and the global VP for education, Anthony Salito, just blasted out to his millions of Twitter followers, "There's this great AI and education podcast my team are doing. You should all listen to it." That that was a high because at that moment, we suddenly knew that we could get away with it. And and It's there's two things, right? It was that that that so British uh exuberance that you showed there when you you turned off the mics and turned to Dan and said, "Well, that was Jollywood, wasn't it?" It was very good show. There was no like, "Yeah, you bloody little ripper." It was just Yeah, it was great. Very good. Well done. But that's but I can imagine it would have been quite a moment. Yeah. So, looking back for 2022, then I mentioned my uh element of the NFT crypto, you know, bubble. bursting, growing, bursting, growing. Um, what what are your thoughts, Lee, Beth, and Ray? Maybe start with you, Lee. What were your memories of the last year? What things jump out to you? Well, because I'm old and I have a short-term memory. It's probably the last 15 seconds are the things that are most apparent in my mind. But I've been really quite deeply interested in this process of generative AI and this this acceleration we've gone through into the idea that we can use to create things. Dan, I know you and I did it and I think Ray, you might have done it back in the days, the conversation around whether AI could be creative or is AI able to kind of take on that humanistic content and we saying, you know, we were I remember arguing the point saying, no, AI is not creative. It is just a tool of human based on human cognition. But here we are seeing stuff created and I'm not just talking about, you know, the chat GPT stuff of really recent B, but that Dari moment and then Darly too, which I mean Darly was kind of interesting. clip before that which was the precursor to Deli. But Deli too, this idea that suddenly this stuff was really quite interesting and good for me has been like a it's a bit of a wake up moment. It's a bit of that moment, you know, when you something you've held to believe for some time suddenly has been shaken with this idea that actually it it's something different and not what you thought and you have to reset your thinking about what AI is really capable of. That for me has been a really interesting look back and I'm going to take us back in time because episode number four for was about chat bots and and we talked about the example then that absolutely fled me was the ability for a chatbot to understand that when Australians say aquatic center what they mean is swimming pool and so when I was putting in my query what time is the swimming pool open and the website knew it as an aquatic center it did that translation bit it's like oh my goodness it understands different variations of English and it's smart enough to do that and then you know link for to now and chat GPT we'll come back to it but chat GPT mind-blowing in the last uh two weeks for me I think you know you talk about AI and how it how it helps and assists our lives and technology when it works is such a tool for making our lives better but then it's also a massive problem when things go wrong and I'm thinking about some of the data breaches that Australians suffered towards the end of this year and so I'm a um um Optus customer and I had to have all of my personal documents reissued. Uh heaven only knows uh what um what has happened to any of the information that I had. And then of course off hot off the the heels of Optus was Medybank and I think it's you know shone a light on a whole part of the technology world that a lot of people aren't overly familiar with. Um and and really put the spotlight also on government to to understand you know what what how how do how do they protect Australians from these types of things um going forward and then also you know as customers what personal responsibility do we have to protect ourselves I think it's as we look into next year people are going to be really a lot more focused on security and and I think that's that's one that's quite sticks out in my mind is the unseen AI and know we've talked about that on the podcast previously as well you Ray just mentioned the black box of AI there, but the the AI that we see pervasively in tools that we might use and things, you know, when you're talking about security there, what jumped into my mind is all of the tools and technologies because of all the signals that are happening in whatever technologies are using all that AI in the background, which is the only way we can catch a lot of these hackers and and uh I suppose find out what signals are happening and where we can kind of um control those. The AI in the background to stop a lot of that. uh has been phenomenal over the last couple of months as well. So that's been a quite a good good year for unseen AI as well. You know, I want to come back to something that Ry mentioned earlier. Well, actually you mentioned it, Dan, and we will get to chat GPT because I think we've got a lot to talk about there because that's such a big thing. But you mentioned NFTTS and you know and and and crypto broadly and we think about that being fundamentally about blockchain which is about creating chains of trust which is about dealing with these issues of public disclosure of data in private in in private manageable ways but without central agencies that can kind of lose it on our behalf. Um, Ry, I'd like, you know, now love to get your view on on on that world of web 3 crypto and NFTTS because for me personally, I was a big NFT denier and I've sort of come around to the idea that there's a basis of a really good idea in there. It's just being executed poorly right now because we're, you know, doing stupid things with it. But I'd love to get your view on it because it is going to be one of the I I think it's going to be a big part of this privacy uh puzzle that we're trying to solve. Yeah, I I I think I'm with you in that I have been a cynic and I'm probably not out of the cynical box to be honest. Yeah, I remember reading once somebody saying there's nothing you can do with a blockchain that you can't do with a database and many many many of the scenarios that I've heard talked about especially in public sector and especially in education actually there is an authoritative source for for the ownership of the database and so So many times we're trying to solve a problem that's better solved in a in a different way. So I I'm still I'm still not there yet on the fence. Can I ask a a you know a dumb question to which I'm becoming quite famed for. How have we even describe NFTTS? So the I I should I should preface that by saying perhaps the most comprehensive explanation I've seen is by um an amazing woman on Twitter, Avalon Pen, Penrose, and she described NFT in the funniest funniest way. She also goes on to describe other things like blockchain and the stock market. So, if you if you've never seen some of her explanations, I will suggest that that that you do that. But for the normal person, how what is NFTTS? I I'll give it a try and then I think I'll throw it to Dan and Ray to correct me. But because I heard this one and ended up using it myself, a recent presentation I did which was this. If you think about the Mona Lisa hanging in the Lou that is a singular piece of art. It's a picture painted by Vinci and it's that picture and it's only one copy of it, the one that he hand painted in there and it's a wonderful amazing thing and it is priceless because it's the one he painted. There are a billion copies of the Mona Lisa around the world. I could put one on my desktop tomorrow. I could digital copies of it everywhere. They are not worth the same money as the Mona Lisa. They don't have the same value. They are the same image. totally, but they're not unique. They're not the one, the original one. And you think about an NFT as a way of saying, okay, if I create something digital, how do I make it as unique as the original Mona Lisa while still allowing copies of it because, you know, there's no protection for copying an NFT, but I still attribute a sense of rarity and value to a digital object, which inherently by its very definition is not rare or unique. That's what an NFT is trying to do. It's trying to attribute rarity to something that is inherently not rare. That's my understanding. I don't know if that makes it any clearer. Ray, Dan, any thoughts. I'm I'm still in a cynical box. I think Lee Well, so I'll stay there. I I was going to describe I was going to bring the Mona into my description of it as well. I think it's whacking a photocopy of the Mona up in a different building and go that copy is yours. Uh which is great until somebody loses the keys to the building, which is I think what's happening with a bunch of NFTs at the moment is the key holder has disappeared and suddenly your photocopy is inaccessible. But I think that's the guy that went missing, isn't it? He didn't he Yes. The But I I think that I think to the the the problem and why people are cynical about this particular technology and say the the crypto field as well is that you know some of the applications exactly like you said Ry have been developed in not a nonsensical way but ways that could have been done with with similar technologies like the database. Um, and I think you know when people are looking at things from outside and are involved in technology or even if you are involved in technology and you're saying well why did um the first tweet be sold as an NFT for X amount of million dollars or whatever it might be it it isn't tangible to put value to digital assets in a way that we do for for things like the Mona Lisa. So I think some of the some of the the examples that we've been using and seeing are sometimes, you know, quite easy to poke fun at. So, I think that's where where it all comes tumbling down. Right. So, I think we're on the basis of a good solid argument here. But the point being, you're absolutely right and I think this is back to almost to where AI is today because the problem is not the idea of the NFT. The idea that a somebody wants to attribute value to a digital object for the world that we all don't belong to, that our kids are going to belong to, that's actually a very realistic and probable outcome that they will live in. The problem we have today, much like AI, is the way it's being implemented and the NFT structure, the JSON model, the way it's been built, central clearing houses like OpenC that actually don't work because people are corrupt and stupid. Those are the things that are making it fall apart today. But if you break if you take that your head away from the what we're doing, but what what is the incubus of the idea? That's my thinking about NFTTS is that makes sense. The idea that you know a Minecraft asset, a thing you might build in Minecraft has value because you made it and it's unique even though it could be copied. That's something I think is worth exploring even though I'm not fully there myself in my head. Yeah. And I think um I I kind of think back to we had NFTTS before but they weren't called NFTs. They were called stamp collecting and stamps became incredibly valuable because people wanted them and now they're not because people don't want them because we moved on and now we're on to NFTts and you know whether it's NFTs of artwork or it's digital clothes for your Xbox player. It's people want them and I'm guessing that cycllically we'll go on to the next thing that your point is there's underlying technology there that can do amazing things. Let's disregard maybe what we're currently using it for and think about what we could use it for in a positive way. Well, look, I've I've heard your arguments. It still doesn't quite make sense to me. And I I I'm going to be honest and say I do prefer Avalon's explanation. So, I encourage you to listen listen to that. Now, you you know You're talking about chat GBT uh GPT. Tell me what is what is that? Go on Ray, you're the guest of honor. Well, look, this is uh this is me. I'm I'm really I'm really embarrassed being in the company of Lee trying to explain something because Lee would start with a really brilliant deep dive into the technology. I see it as a user thing which is this amazing way to generate answers to questions in in a textual kind of way. It's like The first thing I did was I went to it and said, um, I want you to tell me the story of the origin of McDonald's restaurants in the style of the first paragraph of the Bible, King James Bible, and it did it. And it's like, how does it generate those two completely bizarre ideas and put them together? Um, and what I watched as as probably in the first 10 days as people started to get their head around it, as they realized they could go and ask it to generate anything, whether it's a short thing or a long thing or a an article or whatever. What what I noticed was educators diving into it and first of all fearing what it would do about for their world with students and then changing completely to suddenly realizing it was going to change their world. So it started with people setting their assignment questions getting it to write an essay and then marking that essay and go well that's a B+. Every one of my students can get a B+ now in 10 seconds. And then the Ultimate I think by the weekend the first weekend after it had been released was I watched an academic tell his story about he went from I'll get it to set the question so it'll write the assessment question then I get it to write the rubric and then he went to the other one and said write the answer and then he went back to the first one and said mark the question and then finally he said write the feedback for the student and there was that scary moment that it managed all of those bits well and suddenly you don't need the teacher or the student like you can do automate the whole process. Well, right, it's it is scary when you put it in that context of just what it can do. But I would actually start the I would take the conversation a different way. I wouldn't have gone with a deeply technical one. I'd actually go with the Douglas Adams theory, which I know you will all accept and and love, which is the infinite number of monkeys theory, which is not Douglas Adams, of course. It's from many years before that, but I remember the Douglas Adams instantation of this, but that's what it is. It's a large language model. It's been given essentially we now have infinite monkeys in this large language model that are able to generate this script this content simply by having all of that data. But it doesn't mean that it is neither logical right or good in any way. It's just grammatically and logically correct, but could be total and utter gibberish in terms of its actual point. And we've seen some examples of that. I think been some interesting examples of it. But for me that's the it's it's the instantiation of something that for me since I was a little kid reading Douglas Adams has been this sort of this idea of something that is magical in my head that you know you create an infinite number of monkeys they can create the words of Shakespeare just by simply banging random if you didn't know that's the theory that by infinite number of monkeys generate the words of Shakespeare by random randomly banging on keyboards that's what we've got in a modern highly technical highly sort of scaled way but it still doesn't really know anything. It doesn't know the things it's telling you. It just knows how to emulate the styles, the concepts you're doing. But, you know, we should get back on point around education. It is quite scary in that it is able to generate that level of content that is good enough to fool exam boards. Uh I believe the Azure and AWS exams have both been passed by chat chat GPT. Now, um you know, that kind of stuff is It does make you stop for a minute and go, "Hold on." Dan, you're a teacher. Would, if you were still in the classroom at this point, would would you do something like tell your kids to go to chat GPT to write the essay and then to edit the essay and show you how they improved it? See, that's a great pedagogical way to do it, isn't it? That's a great way to do it. That is such a But but then you you know, it becomes that element of trust then because you you could feed that you exam feed that and just ask chat GPD to do exactly that. Um it's it's about, you know, we we get into the essence of learning here, aren't we? And I think that's where um all the teachers who I've seen, all the examples that I've seen on Twitter and LinkedIn and YouTube over the last couple of weeks. You know, it's all been, you know, this is the end of assessment. This is, you know, so it is going to make people think differently. Maybe it's a good silver bullet at the end of high stakes testing in one way. perform. Maybe it's a better way to start to think about different ways to assess kids abilities rather than just on our test. Yeah. And I think one of the ways that we can see that kind beyond the hype because it's really easy doing the hypy stuff and getting some really funny results or really deep results. Um I used it for a scenario I had a a I had a difficult email to to write and I wasn't quite sure how to write it. So I asked chat GPT to write it for me and then I I got it and it's like it's not quite right. It's a bit formal for me. So I said, "Can you make this a little bit more informal?" And it did. And then I said, "Can you include this example?" And I got to an email which was like, "This is this is pretty good. It'd be really funny if I sent it." It's like, "Well, maybe I should." So I did. I copied and paste and sent that. Um I haven't had a reply in 5 days. So I'm thinking the person I sent it to hasn't immediately gone over to chat gpt to say, "How do I respond to this email?" But like doing a real thing as opposed to a madeup scenario is I think the most revealing about his strengths and weaknesses. I um I've just translated some Australian traffic laws into Shakespearean English and I'm I must say I'm really impressed and I can see how this is instantly going to change my life. Do you think we could use it to write our um annual performance reviews? Guys, I'm I'm thinking that's the idea. So, not only can I get it to write my annual performance review, but I can do so and submit it in Shakespearean English, which I think adds a certain I think you're on to something there. But but but ju just just to go into the technology with us because it is I think it's well worth just spending a couple more minutes on it because you know every so often we come across things in technology which sort of spreads across you know the I was in my guitar making class like about a month ago and one of the guys was talking about Dari too. you know, um, and showing, you know, somebody else, you know, look at this image, you know, a a a kitten riding a bike on Mars, eating a pizza, you know, people adding all, you know, as much as you can add to it and he was generating those images. Um, in terms of the actual technology behind it, you you kind of alluded to the fact to say the chat GPT engine is is like reinforcement learning and quite like limited, doesn't really understand what's going on. What What What is the general premise behind these things in the last couple of weeks? Well, look, it's I was probably being a bit a bit lighthearted on that kind of a view, but um it's a large language model, which means it's essentially trained on the syntactical structure of language, the connection between words and the way in which words are used to structure styles and types as we've seen right the style of Shakespeare and so on. Um and and to be fair, Dari and behind it and image generation, stable diffusion, everything else are essentially language models that have been infused with image gone to content trained on the same thing and then they mapped the two together so you can ask it ask it for a picture um what this is the interesting dicho which I don't have an answer for because in one theorem you would say all they are doing is regurgitating what we have told them I mean in a sense they they're only repeating knowledge that they've learned so they will you know in Beth's example it knows that there are kangaroos in Australia because somewhere it's read enough times that kangaroos instant correlation to figure out that hey Australia and kangaroos are quite the correlation is high but it doesn't know that and this is the thing about whether or not this is you know the touring test the knowledge point of doesn't know enough to know to be able to go beyond that set of knowledge or at least we think and this is you know we've seen various people stand up and say they've seen sentients come out of these things um and that's something that I'm not willing to comment on because I don't know yet whether or not that's a point we've reached where these things are sentient or not put it into the hands of experts it becomes more powerful because and and you don't need to be much of an expert. So, just between the four of us, Beth just shared that Shakespearean roads of the traffic laws. I don't know if you spotted it says that we drive on the right. That's very that's very dangerous. And so that's why you need experts. Thank goodness it's not going to make any of us redundant. Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it? I mean, and but you wouldn't have never noticed it and you read it and it's a hugely amusing and funny and well-written piece, but it's totally wrong. And if that was instructions on, you know, wiring a machine or building a tractor or what, lives will be lost. Lives will be lost in this example. So, somebody's going to somebody's going to invent a time machine, a Shakespearean traveler is going to turn up in Australia and we're going to be wondering why there are all these strange accidents. But because it's about a learning process, Dan, as you pointed out, we only have to tell it that it's wrong that it's actually left and it will from that point on be correct. But and and that's just the learning process. So then you start to go, okay, well now If it can learn from that and we can guide it in the right directions and to Ray's point, you get smart people who know that domain to guide it, you do end up with something very powerful. And I think the big the big bit about this one is the fact that it's not narrow in AI in the AI sense where it only knows about answering road traffic questions. You can literally ask it anything. Yeah. This is this is why it's become so profound, isn't it? Because we we've been talking to chat bots like since series 1, episode 4, whatever. You said But I've been creating chat bots myself and it seems to have whatever you know you know it'll probably be worth an episode on itself unpacking this at some stage because it seems to have you know like you race it in the last two weeks those the the the exponential move forward with this type of technology even though it's sort of not some of the technology we've been talking about over the last year um in terms of AI uh is is has really moved forward in leaps and bounds. Is there anything else uh outside chat GPT that people are looking forward to in 2023? What else is coming up in your worlds? I know metaverse is a big one last last year, wasn't it? Yeah, I think we actually met Metaverse and education is an interesting one and you know Ry, you still obviously live very much in the education sector. What what do we think about that? I mean, what's the viewpoint from your side of the of the world in terms of is metaverse going to be a tool get in the way of education? I think the thing is going to pull this back in education is the tools to create metaverses don't really exist. You I remember the first time I strapped on a hollow lens. It was an amazing experience and I couldn't help but imagine what you could do within education but the real barrier is creating the content is outside of the bounds of of most uh education organizations. And I think we're in the similar boat with metaverse. And so something's got to change. Either we've got to have the same tools that we have that allow us to create slides and documents to create things in the metaverse that are high quality or we've got to have a different education system that isn't a cottage industry institution by institution and have somebody that can afford to make something for the globe like the movie industry does. It's such a good point, Ry. I think um is the quote the future is already here. It's just not distributed evenly. And I think whenever we're talking about some of these big trends especially when they are reliant on internet access and devices and computers all of that sort of stuff even if it is going to be a big thing who's it going to be a big thing for and you know how many people are going to be left behind and and to that point I think when I think about 2023 I'm more excited about how you we are starting to see greater collaborations to use technologies to actually solve the world's biggest problems I'm feeling more optimistic now about our ability to collaborate at scale across um multiple platforms, multiple organizations and multiple countries to to get a handle on some of the biggest challenges that we've got. So that that's I'm cautiously optimistic that almost everything will be solved by by next year. I want to I want to we should anchor on that point of optimism, Beth. I think it's a great way for us to start thinking about rounding things up because I'm keen to get your sense, Ray. I mean, what are you optimistic about for the next year not so much the technology but you know in the field of AI and education where we started this long journey what are you most optimistic about I I think two things one is I think we're at an inflection point with technology and education that could lead us to a completely different place and and that's partly driven as we come out of a pandemic world into a world that isn't going to flip back to the old model in the same way that businesses are saying how do we get people back to the office universities are saying how do we get people back to campus and then there's that realization that's not going to happen. So you have to have a different model. That inflection point I think is good. I think the second thing is we're kind of get going to get better at redefining the problem. So up until now education again I'll talk about higher education because that's the world I live in. Um in higher education it's always been about the piece of paper at the end. The uh what I would call the celebration of of leave losing a customer um and what would be called the graduation. And and I think we're going to redefine the problem. because my word lifelong learning is going to be absolutely critical. And so celebrating the end of education is exactly the wrong thing to do. So how do we redefine the problem in order to solve the real problem? And um that's going to take some really out of the box thinking and I think we're going to be given the opportunity as a global population to think about how we do that. Yeah, great point. Okay, are we nearly at that point? I think we've kept Ry for almost long enough. But Dan, you did allude early on and you've said it a couple times that maybe we had some special tips, gifts. Oh, no. We got a huge quiz for Ray, haven't we? No, we haven't. He's failed. Yeah, he's failed. So, we were going to think about, you know, our our tips, our Christmas gifts as a parting end to the season and the year uh for for people. And I'll I'll start with mine um while everybody else is thinking about theirs. Uh mine's mine's a sort of semi-serious This one is it's about the family safety settings. You know, if you are it's one of the passions of mine. I think love buying kids technology and and getting all of that sorted. But, you know, I think my top tip slashgift would be if you're a parent listening to this podcast, make sure that whether you're buying your kids a Apple device or a Xbox or or a Windows PC, make sure you tap into the family security center settings, you know, especially with the Microsoft element, you know. There's a lot of stuff you can do in there like monitoring kids usage of tools and technologies uh when they're logging in and you know I think we too accustomed as as a society to buy something in the box and don't set it up you know I suppose the tech second golden tip would be make sure you put your Xbox in plug it in a few nights before and do all the updates so you don't do it on Christmas day um you know get all the updates done put the game your son or daughter wants to play in get all the downloadable content installed for them before they lo in. But setting it up properly um with parental access, you know, sets you in the right frame of mind for for the appropriate use of technology if you've got younger kids, you know, some of some of which has worked to me and some of which I didn't do and you know, I know that can come unstuck really quickly. So, that would be my tip. Family safety settings. Beth, how about yours? Oh, good tips. So, um actually gadget wise, I've bought my daughter one of those little smart watches that allows her to make a few phone calls. So, it I feel pretty conflicted about getting her something along those lines, but like any good kids Christmas toy, it'll be broken in about 2 weeks. So, so it'll it will go in the pile of of disused um disused toys that we have in our house. I I personally think and if you reflecting on on our lives here in Australia and thinking about people and place like Ukraine, I don't need anything else and my family don't really need a lot of different things. And actually, we we're making the choice not to buy Christmas gifts this year and just um spend time with one another. I I am spending a bit of time getting the kids to hand make a few bits and pieces. So, it's a little bit retro um to to do this. It's um two reasons. Number one, I was a bit disorganized. has to arrange anything else. And um my daughter's got a a new hot glue gun, so we're going to make use of use of that. And what could possibly go wrong with those combination of things? Um having spent $260 at um like a craft shop recently. Um I'm I'm looking forward to making you the family gifts that I could have bought for like $10 that came up. But never mind. That's handmade. Handmade with love. Love it. Now I'm super worried about you having a hot glue gun and a small child in the same room. That's that just feels like that's a recipe for disaster. Maybe I should I should check chat GBT in terms of what could go wrong. Well, funny you should say that. If I think about my tips, one of my tips was going to be go play with it. Have fun with it. It is fun. Don't use it don't use it to write your thesis. Uh don't use it to write your uh your emails necessarily, Ray, despite your uh your tips earlier. But have fun with it because it is a really interesting toy to play with. Uh contr to that, get off the internet is my other tip. Uh not that it's a bad place, but we all need a break from it. I certainly do. And so my my my time will be spent more with my dog than my internet as much as I can over the Christmas period. And the only other one I want to bring up back to your point, Dan, because I've got teenage kids. I got a 12-year-old and a 16 year old, which is I love them to death, but my goodness, it is the toughest time to have children. And we could all argue about the challenges of of the different ages, but my focus with them has shifted away from controlling their screen time to understanding their screen needs and talking more about what are they doing online because it's no longer a thing that I can take from them. It's intrinsically their life. So now I have to figure out how I work around it. So stop trying to tell your teenagers not to use the internet, not to use technology, but learn what they're using it for is my tip. Ry, you can take us home. Wow. Uh I'm gonna go non tech as well. So I think uh really good book. Um, if you want to read a book related to the world we're in and the kind of things that that are talked about on the podcast, I'll recommend a couple. There's a book called Broken by uh Paul LeBlanc, who's the president of uh Southern New Hampshire University in America. It's great and and it's a very human book. It's talking about how do you solve big awkward problems uh not just in education. Uh there's another one if you're a frustrated middle middle manager or you aspire to be but you don't want to be frustrated when you get there. There's a book called Hack Your Bureaucracy. Um, it's it's it's American as well, but it's from people that were in the middle of the system that were frustrated with how the system worked. And so, it's just awesome about what you can do rather than what you can't do because I don't know about other people, but gosh, I don't want to spend too long dwelling on what I can't do. I want to work out what I can do. Uh, and if you're into neither of those and you want a one minute read, go read about what happened in the Horton's hot dog compet. ition in 2001 and the way that they suddenly discovered how to eat twice as many hot dogs in 12 minutes. Uh they had 20 years of eating 20 hot dogs in 12 minutes and then suddenly it went to 50. And the story about how it changed in September 2001 is amazing and it gives you inspiration for how am I going to reframe a problem. Is it something to do with soaking the bread in water? I've I've seen some of those videos. That's the one. have so much show notes for this one. The pinnacle of human achievement multiple times. Well, Rey, thanks again for for coming on today to talk to us and talk to our viewers before Christmas and having this discussion about all things technology and um thanks Lee and Beth. I hope everybody has a wonderful wonderful Christmas uh and happy holidays and whatever you celebrate and however long you're having off just make sure you have time to disconnect and power down I suppose. And that's the that's the key for us all. We'll see you in the new year. Achievement unlocked. Finishing on hot dogs. I love it. Thank you so much, Ray, for joining us again and thanks be and Lee. Have a wonderful Christmas and we'll see you in the new year. Thanks everyone. Thanks all. Thanks.

Welcome to the AI podcast! In this episode, Beth, Dan, and Lee are joined by the Microsoft ANZ Sustainability lead, Brett Shoemaker. This episode discusses all things sustainability. This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own. Show links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brettshoemaker/ ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 11 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Welcome to the AI podcast. Hi Beth. Hi Lee. How are you doing? I'm going to come out with it. I'm I'm I'm new to this game. I'm I've been struck by CO. So, uh I I'm I'm dedicated to the cause. I'm here to join in and listen in. But yeah, unfortunately I'm dealing with the first my first ever experience of CO, which if you've both had it or if any of our listeners have had it, it's not much fun, is it? No, it's not in my list of highlights. Um, it it sounded like uh you know, you've been through all of the symptoms though and perhaps you're out on the other side. I think I'm dealing with Yeah, I've had like, you know, I hadn't my wife was upset because I couldn't taste any dinner last night. It just tasted the same to me. But mental note, never say that to anyone, even if you feel it internally. Um, but uh, no, look, yeah, it's mostly now. It's dealing with this sort of sore throat and coughing. Yeah, this isn't the co episode by any stretch. Uh, but yeah, you may not hear too much from me today. today guys cuz I'll try not to cough over your good your good conversation. Well, luckily we've got a a special guest today as well. We've got Brett Schumer, our Microsoft INZ sustainability lead. So, it's really exciting to have have Brett along to the to the show today as well. So, hi Brett. How are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Um I can't promise that there won't be coughing cuz while I don't have CO uh that I know of, I I I do have a lucky cough as a result of uh having a small child in daycare that they brought home and handed over to me. Yeah, we've all been there, I think. Yeah. Have you been bad? I've Yeah, I've been really well. I mean, my my family have had CO, so we're facing another wave here. Um uh again, but uh I am not getting CO uh Touchwood. So, I I've been really well and actually I' I've been very much focused on sustainability given uh a heap of global events that are happening around sustainability at the moment. So, I'm very very excited to have the opport unity to talk to Brett today. Yeah. And there's a there's a lot to unpack, hasn't there? There's been a lot going on and I I'm here to learn more as well because I've seen a lot on the news and I've seen a lot of the sound bites, but I think the devil's in the detail and actually, you know, understanding some of these things that that have that have gone on, you know, in the last couple of weeks and over the last several years really and the acceleration has been fantastic. So, before we get into the detail with it, Brett, can you tell us a bit about yourself and how you got interested in sustainability? generally. Oh, sure. So, um Dan, you gave a bit of it in the intro. So, I I as the head of sustainability for Microsoft and ANZAD, I guess my usual line is um unlike many sustainability officers, I actually don't spend my days in the world of uh compliance or reporting is actually in working with our clients and partners to uh advance their sustainability journey. So, really in support of others. Um look, I you know, I I can't say you know I don't come at it from uh a science background in terms of how I got in the space. You know, I've as in my time at Microsoft, I've always worked on uh incubation businesses for the last 15 years and this is really it shares a lot of the similar attributes just in terms of a uh a new muscle, a new motion, a new way of operating that we're doing. Um but then the the driver and I I'll share this is on the personal side um actually came a couple years ago right at the start of the pandemic. Um I we had we were in the unfortunate situation where um my my daughter who was three at the time was diagnosed with high-risisk metastatic neuroblastoma which was a stage 4 cancer. I'm happy to report she's a healthy kidney uh kid today. Um and uh but we did go through a very difficult and trying 18 months of treatment and and and I can't pinpoint the moment but there was definitely a moment along the journey where I said it felt a lot more about what I want to be doing and how I want to be spending my time. And um and I always felt, you know, I I didn't have the ability to help uh cure her cancer, but I sure as heck could, you know, work to make the world a better place around her for for when she does win her fight. And uh and that was really the the genesis of starting to to work in this space. Um was, you know, how can I use the platform and the opportunities that I have today to to go do uh what I want to do and and and bring a bit more purpose uh to to my work. Yeah. Wow. Fantastic. Yeah. What an incredible source of inspiration, Brett. I um I I think we're all parents on on the the pod and one of the things that often strikes me is is the world that we're leaving um to our children and and what they are likely to inherit. I have noticed in coming back to Microsoft about four years ago that our focus on sustainability has been very much um uh very much a focus for us at as a global company. It seems like it's been um more of a central part of our strategy than ever before um and certainly more than it was when I started early in the 2000s. Have you observed that sort of renewed focus on sustainability and what do you think is driving that for Microsoft. Oh, it's been a drastic change. Um, well, I shouldn't say dra, it's been a noticeable change. I careful in the word using the word drastic cuz we like we made our first commitments back in 2009, put a carbon fee in the business in 2012. U, but it was in 2020 when we increased our commitments and and those just the quick version of those today are to be uh carbon negative, water positive, and zero waste by 2030 uh while protecting more land. And then we use in building a planetary computer. Nice long run on sentence there. Uh in terms of getting it out the um but the look the I mean the the truth is that when we increased our commitments in 2020 like we did so-c from a corporate social responsibility standpoint because we thought they were the right thing to do. We we did so with huge observation bias. We didn't realize how high it was on the agenda uh of others. Um and and I think when we increased those commitments, we got a lot of questions around the how are we doing it, what are we doing, what have we learned along the way that in in truth we didn't expect. Um and so I think that change that you referenced was really born out of a need to start to share some of the learnings and lessons both from like our steps forward and our steps back um with others and and like the way that I think about it is you think of Microsoft's overall emissions in a given year are 0.03 of a percent of the annual emissions. But then when you think about the impact that we can have in terms of working you know within the the nations where we reside and and with with and through others that we're already engaging with um from a digital technology standpoint today That's where our that's where we feel like our reach and impact scales. So very much if we're if we've learned if we've learned a lot from our journey, it would it would be a disservice not to not to share it uh with others. One of the one of the things that I have noticed is um you know technology isn't a manufacturing company. You know we don't have this massive footprint but what we can do is help customers measure their impact. And I I know that um that is part of the the battle is getting that visibility over um over those uh details. And in my prior job, I was working for a big global healthcare company and I literally spent a year trying to collect and bring together all of the data in one central place to uh identify the um our carbon emissions at a global um from a global point of view. And that involved maybe four or five other people and We worked literally for a year. So yeah, how how how things have changed. Yeah. I mean, if if I you know, I think back to a year and a half ago or maybe a little bit longer than that when I was really starting to get more into the space in terms of what does it mean for people that are that are that are pulling together their compliance and reporting and disclosures on a basis and and you know, I had heard the line that it's a very manual process. You know, a lot Excel files or even physical pe pieces of paper that are showing up in the mail and you know not that I didn't believe it but I think you know as you got into it just simply if you looked at it and said hey there's a massive opportunity for us to help with the automation of this like regardless of the context um I think that is certainly true and you know the you know the thing is that you know my supplier is your supplier my customer is your customer so there's very much a a a shared incentive going about work in this space from a measurement standpoint or proprietary way like would be the wrong approach because you know I I get the same request in terms of here's the 200 questions we want you to answer as it relates to what we're doing from a environmental sustainability standpoint and and hey you take those 200 questions and multiply it by another 200 entities asking a different set of 200 questions it gets pretty big pretty quick and So, you know, there I think there's there's a lot that can be done like the um I I was um I spoke at Impact X last week, which was one of the larger climate conferences in Australia and New Zealand. Um and it was I was on a panel as it relates to uh regenerative agriculture and and my I think my opening statement was we should all have optimism in the space because you know all of the measurement and controls that we're talking about from an environmental standpoint They're all built today in a financial context. Like we're and what we're really talking about here is applying those same financial controls uh to to to the environment um and in in an environmental form. Um and and so that same technologies and pieces that underpin it from a financial standpoint like can just be applied in a different way. That's that's so interesting the way that that that parallels there. I never thought about that before. That's great. So when you're speaking to customers and I know you spoke a couple of my customers as well, Brett, over the time. Um, so over the last couple of months, you're speaking to more and more customers. Um, what are you hearing from them at the minute about their sustainability ambitions? How's it how's it how's it kind of working down the chain there? Yeah. Um, it's a really it's probably the hardest question to answer because it does such range a wide spectrum. Um, and and I think that's, you know, in terms of those that are just embarking on sustainability journey to those that are quite progressed and matured and and and so maybe as a way to answer it I I'll give you what the data the data tells you uh because we did some work oh gosh it was probably about nine months ago in partnership with the univers goldsmith out of the university of London um we worked with them because they had done similar work in the UK and we wanted a good comparison point um and we looked at uh large Australian or A&Z organizations because there was a report for Australia and New Zealand and and the uh basically organizations that are 200 plus employees in size and what like what that came back and said or at least the exact summary of it if you will would you know hey we we're we're big on uh Australian and New Zealand businesses we're on the front lines of the climate crisis whether it's the the bushfires or the flooding events that we've seen um and so the it's very real for us um you know ambition is there with over threequarters of Ansaid businesses having net zero commitments typically in the 2050 time frame. Um but uh we're they're struggling to make progress against them and over a third of those businesses saying they're not on track to hit those 2050 uh targets or commitments self-reporting that. Um and there really three reasons that that consistently come up for it. One is around uh availability of skills. Do I have the people to deliver against uh my commitments and help me make prog ress on it. The second was access to technology. I mean technology in the very broad sense um you know that if I um if I am in the built environment and steel is or cement is an input how do I uh you know green steel is a requirement in the progress of that uh to be able for me to hit my uh net zero commitment. So I mean in the very lucid sense what's interesting in that space is you know while I think it was 80% of uh A&Z business have a heavy relianceless tech innovation. But what's interesting is less than half were actually investing to be a customer of donor to or investor in those same solutions that they'll ultimately require. Um and then the third area is the one that we already touched on was that around measurement and and what you saw was less than half of ANZAD businesses were investing in tools to help them with the automation of that measurement today and only 11% were actually mapping emissions back to their sources. And what I mean by that is is getting back to where that core uh emission source sits. Yeah. The building management system for the uh environment uh that you may occupy in terms of office space. Uh the others were just doing a an estimation, you know, using operational data and general ledger data to to estimate um what the what their emissions were. Yeah, that's that's fantastic. And it's really interesting the way you kind of brought that together in a in an easy this form and and apologies of course that that that that uh Goldsmith's um uh research is fantastic. We'll put the link to in the show notes because there's some great um uh learnings from there and it really gives you a lens on what customers are doing across the landscape. So, thanks for supporting that project. I think it's great. Brett, um one of the things I I think it was one of my most proud proudest days working for Microsoft when we announced our global goals. They were I think um quoted as moon goals because we set these targets, but we actually publicly announced that we weren't quite sure how we were going to achieve them. And when I read the latest 2021 report, I can see that we're reasonably on track with our scope one and two emissions, but off off track with scope three. Um I I wondered if you could talk a little bit about, you know, where you see us on our journey, but also one thing that I've observed Microsoft doing and doing well um is publishing white papers and blogs and being really transparent about our journey. Do you think that um you know if we are struggling other companies must be struggling as well and how important is it for us all to you know work together as a a global community to solve these these problems? It seems to me like it's not necessarily a commercial piece where we're competing and keeping all this intellectual property but we're using to disclose and move things forward. I wonder if you had thoughts on that. Yeah. Well, um I'll I'll start by saying the good news is those 2030 goals are not moonshots anymore. Like they are clear they're there are clear commitments with a with a path uh towards them. The one moon the one moonshot that's left is the our 2050 goal of by 2050 having removed more carbon from the atmosphere than we've emitted since our founding in 1975. Um the um you know the the piece in terms of our progress. So yes, one of the core principles of the work is transparency. That's stated very clearly. I think you can even find it up on our on our public uh web page. Um and and the reason for that and it's another thing I talked about a little bit last week was you know the the pledges were an important and critical first step creates clarity within the organization. Helps people understand what are the And and to be to be clear, there's there's actually 40 to 50 different commitments because there's the milestones along the way that are about uh the progress. Um and the uh that so so that piece is critical, but it's actually the work that we've done as we've made progress that has taught us the most. And uh and that it comes back to both the steps for and steps back, right? So yes, in the last year, our scope 3 emissions increased um largely as a result of the pandic mic as we all uh transition to remote work, the rise in device use that occurred around it, the energy grids that were now we're now not in uh now not in an office that may have renewable energy powering it s you know maybe it's solar sitting up on the rooftop now we're in each of our individual homes um and and certainly as as someone who has three children under nine um I will say there was more iPad use and device use Xbox use during school during homeschool hours than it was, you know, when they're in school and and and and you know, Xbox, you know, people sitting in your home paying Xbox use is all downstream for us. It's it's part of our scope 3 emissions and so um but yeah, you know, it's sharing some sharing some of those learnings on the journey, right? For scope 3 emissions today, we have uh you know, we put a requirement in for a supplier code of conduct uh several years ago, I believe it was in 2020 at the time of those commitments. Um we have 80% of suppliers that are reporting today across all three scopes, but we knew that wasn't going to be enough. We added some tools and resources that were there to help them with those disclosures. And in the last year, we started working with the um specifically in Asia with the with the IMF and the World Bank identifying for our most material suppliers what are potential mitigations um helping them find uh where they can procure some of those um alternatives from and offering them affordable financing through the World Bank as a way to um to to help with the adoption of them. And so um you know many of those pieces has been a journey, right? Like I always think about the pieces that are within your control and the pieces that are within your influence. And so control the things that we can control and continue to invest to influence and and if I then I build to you know Well, hey, yes, you know, if I were to say any of our terms and contracts around offtake agreements for carbon removal, public documents today. Any of our learnings from it, public documents today. Um, any of the uh RFIs or uh EOIs that we've put out to market for carbon removal are freely shared today. And it's the the whole premise, like if I really were to strip it back, is those that have the ability to do more should. And we are in a fortunate position that not others are in. Partly given size partly given the geographic footprint uh partly driven by balance sheet and so the the sharing others is the you know there's there's not much time left between 2030 and no one's going to wake up on Jan 1 2030 and realize that they've hit a goal uh and so you know why have others go through the same lessons and learnings and challenges that we did if we can just shorten that accelerate it yeah thank you Brent I have a poorly formed question in my head around the technology side of this because you know I I so as a parallel to me I think about the work we did in responsible AI as a company and and initially that was a lot about how do we build better technology to be more responsible more ethical more more principled in its approach and it sort of over time really became actually you know what the tech is just kind of not even 30% it's just this little part of it it's people process and communication and mechanisms and other things that drive it and so I think about this with sustainability ambitions and goals. There's, you know, obviously it's, as you've just talked about, there's a lot of it is just talking about it and sharing information and being and disclosing and kind of building a community of people that just who can and therefore should contribute to this problem domain. But then parts of it are very technical. I mean, I know for example, things like measuring carbon as a as an asset is a very technically challenging thing to do for our farming and agriculture industry to be able to buy, trade, and ship those uh and broadly just kind of think about how we remove carbon is a technical challenge. So my question that is poorly formed is like from your point of view is this a is it a technical challenge? Is it a societal challenge? Is it something that like how do we how much technology and given we're a technology company how much do we think technology is actually going to be the impetus for change or is it just going to get pulled along in the journey? So look you will never hear me say that technology is the cure. to the climate crisis that we face. It it isn't it it plays a supporting role that can help you know some of the same I think about all that all the work that happens from a research and science standpoint effectively is using cores that sits in data centers to process and crunch data and so um you know it does have a it does have a role to to play um look it maybe I'll give you so I recently heard it was Paul Hawin. Um, if you don't know Paul Hawin, he wrote Project Drawdown. Um, he's one of the co-founders of Project Drawdown, which is an organization today. And gosh, I'm blanking on what his second book is, but I think it's it's regenerative something and I'm blanking on what the second word is. Um, but um, I'm a huge fan of of Paul's, full disclosure, but you know, so I heard him talking last week, and he was actually talking, it was kind of in that same vein of a lot of the pieces from a sustainability standpoint, whether it be the words that we use, uh, TNFD, TCFD, GHG, like the acronyms or, you know, a nature-based solution, they're they're they often are can be offputting uh to people to help them understand what it is that they need to do or to prompt someone to act. You can kind of get that paralysis that's there. And look, if there's anything the last 30 or 40 years has taught us is just putting out data points and facts isn't gonna actually help someone. And so, uh, like when I think about it, like I think about it, which is prompting people to act by telling stories, um, putting it in. And so, so tie that back to your question, Lee, like I when I think about the technology, I think the technology is in the backdrop of the story, right? Um, you're familiar with, but like you know, the the partnership that we have with CSRO around healthy country AI, like in those stories around how we've used uh um AI to like you know I tell the story of the the turtles uh on the coastline of Cape York and how AI helps support indigenous rangers to help them conone their uh hone their conservation efforts by using that data to quantify the quantity and uh activity of predators that are in the area enabling them to cover long large swaths of land um to see 20,000 of those turtles make it to the ocean each year to to preserve a um a species and and I use that right because it's the like you can you can know knowing the importance and feeling urgency are two different things. I can know the importance of saving endangered species, but it's seeing the progress as those 20,000 turtles make it to the coastline each year that gives me the urgency to either act now or continue to act more. Uh that momentum piece and and so I think technology is in the it plays a role but it's it's it's it's in the in the background. It's the enabler of of that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and I I I wouldn't disagree with you. I'm glad you share that view. I just there's always a tendency I think that you know we we sort of see technology as the panacea of all good. It can you know if we build enough tech we can solve problems but I think you're right these these are big ESG problems that are not tech tech's an enabler but not the uh kind of the creator of the the solution if you like. Yeah, it's enabler and like and you're right it's the you know I never want to come like I think about any conversation I have I never want to come across as as pitching technology um at the same time uh you know think about the role that like the role that I feel that Microsoft can play in the tech sector at large is to help help the world innovate out of the climate crisis we face and so it is the like we we do know that innovation going to be required that we know that technology is going to have to help to scale some of these engineered and I'm going to use one of those words that uh Paul Hawin would encourage me not to use those engineered solutions but like the the solutions exist today there's a lot of work that needs to happen to see them deliver at scale and we we know that technology is a an enabler some of that yeah I think you know Brett the important thing is um because it's easy to see us as a tech company and see you as a representative of that tech company walking into a room and you know like you go to these events and you represent tech and so you just need to be kind of really tampering that back to the point that it's not about the fact I represent tech but actually what you represent and as we say in our responsible AI we represent the responsibility that we have as a tech company not the technology itself but the the position we want to take up which is hey we want to be part of the solution which is not just about our tech it's about our people and our process so I think it's great that you bring it up but sorry Beth you want to jump in? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was just thinking about the broader interpretation of the word technology and if we think about technology in the context of the industrial revolution, arguably it was technology that caused this problem in the first place. So, the the way that we use technology to transport ourselves or grow our food, design our cities, you arguably technology was was um one of the ways that um this problem has come about in the first place. And it need needs to. Yeah, I love that that way of describing how technology can empower us to come up with solutions to solve this problem, but it's not in and of itself the solution. Um Brett, we're talking to you during the middle of COP 27 and you one of the things that I often struggle with is how complex this is as a a truly global issue and we we talk about all the kind of challenges we're facing Arguably, the politics and the personal relationships are going to be just as complex, but we need them to be happening in order to collaborate to solve the problem. Are you optimistic about these processes as a mechanism to to kind of get everyone on the same page achieving the same goals? Oh, am I optimistic? Um I guess I I characterize myself as a bit of a realist like I I I think that these global forums play a important role in the absence of everyone coming together and having that forcing function or some level of accountability around what it is that you're doing. I don't think that would I I don't think eliminating it would help the cause. And I say realist because at the same time I'm very very measured in terms of what to expect coming out of it. There's not a there's not a a magical answer that's suddenly going to emerge through COP and all all things be fixed. You know, this is a space that is going that requires both public sector and private sector coming together. It requires collaboration. Collaboration is not easy. Um if you want to go fast, you go alone. If you want to go far, you go together. Um and so and we're in a need to to go far and go fast at the same time. Um and and so uh but I I do say all right so let's take COP 27 have there been some things coming out of it that I view positively yes um there increasing level of rules and scrutiny around greenwashing and specifically for the financial services sector and how can I you know can I continue like will I be able to continue to make net zero statements uh while can you explain what greenwashing is? Uh greenwashing is basically um oh gosh I should have a really clear uh definition for you Dan. So um uh overstating the work that one may be doing uh to in pursuit of net zero or uh climate targets okay let's say that way a one and a half degree future okay so uh so increased rules around greenwashing policing of that and I use that word very loosely um to you know effectively raise the bar for what is credible in terms of you know do do actions match commitments and for the financial services sector it's often from a financed emission standpoint am I continue like will I be able to continue to uh uh fund and finance um uh fossil fuel expenditures and still make a net zero commitment likely not um the second there's an increased amount of pressure on the World Bank and IMF in terms of overhauling some of his processes which I think is uh good and and maybe I should say for those that don't know COP 27's focus this year is on the global south the southern hemisphere and how does the developing world sorry the developed world um support the developing world in terms of the climate transition right and but there are other areas that are coming out too like um uh I think with the G20 summit which is later this month you'll continue to see more uh announcements that are about getting private financing flowing. Um and then there have been um new rules to strengthen some of the carbon markets. Um which is the basically what does a high integrity carbon offset look like? Um and you know in in your ideal utopian world, you wouldn't require carbon offsets for us to reach net zero. The truth is that we do require them to to to get there in the time frame that we need to. And there's some goodness in them. if done correctly um and that many of these solutions because net zero is just a milestone we ide goal is to remove or or uh some of the carbon from the atmosphere such that we unwind you know what we've done over the last 20 or 30 years and so you know that you know the same solutions that support some of those offsets or is it's basically capital going to car carbon removal that we will require to to get beyond uh net zero and unwind some of the climate impact that we've had. Brett, the other sort of element that is interesting about the the process is just how integral it is to include corporate partners and that that sort of commercial voice. Have you have you got any thoughts around you know what is the role of a corporate? I know Microsoft we're the strategic sponsor and and we're facilitating a number of side events as part of COP. What is our role. What is the role of corporates at something like this? How are we important? Look, um I mean go back to my earlier comment of like this ultimately is both it requires both private sector and public sector to to act. Um and so uh and depending on where you sit in the world uh private sector or public sector may be actually leading uh in terms of the transition. Uh COP 26 was the first like really noticeable sharp noticeable increase in the amount of private sector uh attendees and and COP 27 has been no different. Um and and COP 26 was really where a lot of the financial services sector from a private sector standpoint showed up for in force for the first time. And you think about that you know the context of like the focus this year around how do we continue to finance and support the the global south like you know how do you do that in the absence of having private sector at the table offering, you know, in those and I like I'm going to have to use the word negotiation, but some of those discussions around what does that look like? And so, um, look, I I think uh it requires everyone to act. And so, you know, private sector being there and private sector often being where most of the law I mean, I I can think of scenarios where it might be nationalized infrastructure where it sits within public sector, but some of those large emitters generally are are within the private sector. So I think it's an important role u for them to be there. So bringing this all together then I think I love the comment you said earlier on about we should all have optimism in this space I love that. Um what's what's exciting you most about sustainability over the next year? Give us something to live for. Brett what excites me like what gives me optimism? I think younger generations is what I feed off of for optimism. Like the the level of climate awareness uh that's there. Um I mean there's not too many conversations where it's like someone doesn't say, you know, every one of our new employee orientation classes, you know, I'm getting asked that question. You know, every person I interview is asking about our our climate uh credentials. Um and because it's a supply side and demand side piece and So, you know, there's this, you know, when everyone uh whether it be a a shareholder, uh or your employee base or your client base, um is demanding these things of you. Um it tends to have a really good outcome in terms of driving change. Um and so, so I'd say I'd say that I I say I I think it is the that level of climate awareness of younger generations. And you know, I I I do I interact a lot with kind of a startup and scale up type communities and you know the what people are building on top of the platform and what's po like on a on a cloud platform or the technology that they're building and seeing some of that stuff like it you know it it I continue to be surprised by I surprised you you continue to see use cases that you would never have dreamed of right of like you know the application of technology or what someone's trying to accomplish and and that that piece gives me gives me optimism. Yeah, it's fantastic. I mean, we we we just saw a climate election uh with our last federal election, right? Like that was a a great example of Yeah. of uh of the power that each of us hold uh whether the we vote with our dollars or we vote with our actual vote from political standpoint. Yeah, it's a and so look, it's a really important point that you know this is a this is the people It's driven by people. You know, you talk about the election there. That's that's a people power decision that drives a particular change. And a lot of what you talked about, Brett, I think, is really about how people come together and share, create, and kind of build the mechanisms that are going to change it. And and to your point around it's the next generation. I was I you know, you you struggled there for a bit when you asked about that optimize your optimism for the future, but you got there and you had an answer, which was great because it is, you know, it's not to say that we've all given up. But we're we we have to kind of do more for that next generation because they are going to beat us to the to the chase in terms of really taking this problem and solving it, you know, and and and just kind of shaming us as a generation. And I hate for that to be our legacy. Yeah. Look, I'm no I'm no different than anyone else that works in this space. We've all experienced a little climate anxiety at some point. So when you ask me about optimism, that flashes through my head. Yeah, totally. Look, you know, and you know, we certainly don't joke about these things, but right now in Australia, you know, people out in Forbes and Lismore and their areas are dealing still with these things that you know ma massive issues. So look, thank you Brett. Uh we're at time. I really appreciate you sharing so much of your insight um your views and and kind of making it clear that this is sort of everyone's problem. We've all got a part to play. Whether you work for a tech company, whether you work for you know in some sector or wherever it is, you've got a voice, you've got a role and there's an opportunity for you to speak up and be part of something you know in some way to contribute. Don't say problem. Everyone's opportunity. at opportunity. I love it. Great time. Let's address the opportunity in front of us. Hey, Brett. All right. Well, thank you all for having me.

In this espisode Beth, Lee and Dan look at the mechanics of a creating hackathons based on our experiences on various projects around ethical and hackign for good. From CSIRO projects to the Imagine Academy we we look at what makes them a success and share tips on what works well. ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 10 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Welcome to the AI podcast. How are you, Lee? How are you, Beth? Very good, Dan. Very good, Dan. The AI podcast. So, we're still we're on that. We got to change that, you know. It's coming. It's coming. He's on his way. How are you, Beth? I'm well, thank you, Dan. What have you been up to? Uh, well, I'm enjoying a bit of sun finally here in Adelaide, which is Very nice. Um, but I have actually been doing some interesting work way out of my comfort zone which is participating in our global hackathon. Oh, cool. Tell us more. I would love to tell you more. So, um, I sort of stumbled into this program actually. So, I have a real passion for sustainability. I've done sustainability a bit in some previous jobs of mine and I've also been volunteering to um, to manage the sustainable um community here at Microsoft here in Australia. Um and I saw this hack advertised um Microsoft does a global hackathon as you know every year in October and I saw this hack advertised looking for people to support a project with the CSRO. So I put myself forward um to participate as a team member and uh long story short I was appointed into the team not as a team member but as the team manager and um fantastic so so led um actually an incredible experience that I'm still buzzing from in terms of um what I've learned and the people that I've managed to connect with and um hopefully providing support to the CSIRO that will have a longer term impact. So are you allowed to talk about the pro type of project you're on? Yeah, I I would uh be very keen to talk about it actually. So I you know I guess back in the day um I had the opportunity when I was working for a global healthcare company to manage um or develop and manage a carbon reporting framework for the business at a global level. Um that is also a a wonderful example of um stumbling into a project putting my hand up and accidentally ending up leading it at a global level. Wow. So you um you learn by doing I think is is the um is the the adage there. So as we perhaps all know now carbon calculations are really important for us to to better reduce our impact on the environment. And if you can't measure your carbon emissions, you can't reduce them. But that is just one part of the story. So this is and this is I guess what I've learned doing this biodiversity. project with the CSRO. So, carbon emissions are just one part of an organization's impact on the environment. So, that also includes things like um the impact of their operations on land use and water use, um air pollution, um the impact that they have in regard to animal populations. And so, um looking at an organizational um impact in a more holistic way is really important. So looking at the impact of an organization on local biodiversity, what makes biodiversity really hard to report on is that it's hard to c calculate, which is where the CSRO comes in. So the the uh um CSRO is an organization that we partner with across a range of different topics and we have been providing some specific support to their scientists who are looking at um this challenge of capturing biodiversity data and using that data to demonstrate environmental biodiversity value uh variables, EBVS, and using that data to provide insight to organizations as to whether or not they're having a good impact on biodiversity or a negative impact on bio diversity. And um you know, I think this is so important and as I started to learn about it, it heard to me or it's revealed that you know really all of humankind relies on biodiversity and almost every single industry from agriculture to retail to mining and manufacturing all relies on on biodiversity to to to um exist and if we don't take better care of our biodiversity we will all end up dead. So so you're the hack you're to do a hack around because that's a big I think that's maybe we can explore that during the podcast today but I think the the the thing about hacking and I suppose the origins of hacking and understanding where that comes from but then also how we go about answering or trying to answer those problems that's a huge project right knowing the CSI who are involved and when we look at hacking generally I suppose Lee do you where does hacking come from do do you know the origins of hacking or not do I do I have a story for you really yes Yes, I do know. And you're absolutely right, Dan. I didn't want to diminish the like the sustainability impact is amazing that the work they did, but the thing that first of all happened hit me was Beth's a hacker. Beth's now become a hacker. She's kind of got that hat on and she's now joining the tech nerd crowd, which is awesome. Um, so look, yeah, look, I mean, it's funny because we use this word and a lot of us would have probably, you know, think about that. In fact, you go do a Google search on on hacking and 99% of your results will be the negative, like this idea that hacking is bad. Um, and so the one thing that everybody kind of tends to know, Captain Crunch, the uh phone freaking tool about the early '7s, like 1971, um, little whistle appeared in a B box of Captain Crunch cereal in the US. And that whistle happened to be at a particular pitch, which was 2600 hertz, which was exactly the same tone hertz uh, frequency as the AT&T or Bell company as they were back then, telephones. And so you could use this whistle to to get a phone to give you a free phone call. And kind of everyone thinks back to generally that being the first example of hacking. However, however, a little bit of internet research tells me that that's not the first time it was used. So, actually in in the in a uh late late 50s, um the word hacking was recorded and used as a mechanism by a bunch of people in a sorry, we're not getting very cool anymore, the tech model railroad club. Group of people who are um railroad enthusiasts and it was literally used the hacking principle was used as a mechanism to cut through cables that very you know what we think by hacking to cut something which is the first time that the word hacking was used however we go back even further wow in the late 1800s 1878 to be precise a group of boys teenage boys which by the way tells you straight away that teenagers haven't changed in the last hundred years they're still up to no good as much as they can be They were hired by the Bell Telephone Company which is AT&T as we know um to basically uh do ethical hacking to miss to penetrate test their network. They were basically they were hired by them to kind of mess around with telephone calls to see what they were testing the service and the system very early days of telephones and that's considered to be the very first instance of intentional manipulation of a technical system in the way that we might consider to be hacking today. Wow. There you go. Potted history. That is that is potted history of hacking in in in five minutes. That's super. It just reminded me as well of of when I started to introduce concepts of computer science uh when I was in the UK and we were working on the computer science curriculum and teachers are looking for things to do. I think the interesting one was um you know when you start creating projects from the the get-go like say using a micro:bit or a Raspberry Pi, it's quite a high barrier to entry. So what's some of the people in the K were doing some of the professors like Miles Berry and people like that from the University of Hampton, they were doing toy hacking. So there was a concept that you take a toy in to the school or to what whatever event you're in and then you actually take it apart but not to a level that's you know completely in bits. You know you utilize the motors and things that are already there and then you re uh process them to do different things. So you take apart a Furby and try to make the eyes work yourself or add a battery to it and see if you can do that. So, so that that reminded me toy hacking. Well, and and the interesting thing, and I think this gets us back to kind of and I'd love to hear from Beth about kind of what it was like to be in hackathon, which is the event that you were in, Beth, because this was this at at some point in time and and it seemingly seems to be around the late 90s, early 2000s, the word hackathon started to appear and we went from hacking as a negative connotation. I mean, we had, you know, there's always been sort of um, you know, black hat and and and you know white hat hacking but it was this first time and I think it was late n late late 1999 that the somebody devised this idea of a hackathon and it was the idea was in the early days you'd be hacking over a marathon period. So hacking up until that point had been a kind of a get in quick do something and get out mechanism and the idea was that actually we might get more out of hacking if we spent more time doing it. So we kind of applied almost a um a project-based approach to hacking to create the hackathon. I was going to say like agile. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So turned into this. So So look, I mean that's a Beth, back to you. I mean, I want to hear the sustainability stuff's cool, but actually like what was a hackathon like? What did you think it would be like? Was it what you thought it was going in? And um you know, kind of tell us all about it. Yeah, I'd love to. So I I think I put my hand forward. It was mostly out of interest of the subject area as opposed to to you knowing a lot about hackathons and wanting to participate in the process. Um now I would definitely put my hand up to participate in any hackathon. Such was my love of the experience. So I think um you know I was a little bit nervous that we wouldn't get a lot achieved in a short period of time. So Microsoft allocates a certain um I think it's 3 days but it's a 24-hour cycle because you have a global team and so you're you're allocated a period of time. But I was so impressed with the suite of materials in the kit bag that we were given and the um you know the enthusiasm and the willingness to help from colleagues that I had never met before and people from all areas of the business was not only inspiring, it was actually just really humbling to be part of a team of people who really cared about these topics and wanted wanted to do something in their way to make a difference. So I loved that element. Um what I also loved was that everyone came that that we had such diversity in the team that we um we were able to collect. So we had people from the technical parts of our business, people who work in marketing communications and you we had a a professional storyteller from our Irish um office who wanted to to participate, a design experience lead in the US who was able to to add some value. So, we had so many different people representing different parts of our business and none of us are environmental experts by any stretch of the imagination, but we were all able to add value in our own way and that diverse kind of experience and thought process was really really valuable as well. One of the things that I think was a bit of a challenge was just how we managed that 24-hour um hack cycle. And so, So um uh some of our colleagues were trying to stay up late or get up early and keep a continuity of participation across the different um hemispheres and that worked quite well. But I think going forward I' I'd um I'd try and make that effort myself to to do those later night calls or those early morning calls. But it was um you know I think that the structure of the the program development was really effective. And it was, you know, part of an experience. You, yes, we were a smaller team, but we were also participating with hackers right across the globe. And I think we got um nearly 50,000 people within Microsoft participating in the global hack this year. I was also struck by just how many of the topic areas um that the hacks seem to to cover. Um I would say 90% of the those would have some kind of social impact um to them as well. And so you know the other kind of final point was this is really led by example and led by the highest parts of our business. So the the project that we worked on um was an executive challenge and we had executive challenges that tackled um areas such as accessibility, diversity and inclusion, sustainability, um you international development, all kinds of different topics. and to have our senior leaders really champion these topics and ask people from across the Microsoft world to you know volunteer their time to participate. It was just a a brilliant experience and you aside from anything else I've walked away meeting new people within Microsoft learning more about this topic area uh and also you know I I would hope developing my own um professional soft skills in order to to manage projects in a a finite time. So, I had a I had a wonderful um experience and we really hope that through this um contribution that we're able to move this this issue forward um with um with the CSRO. So, time will tell. So, Beth, you kind of alluded there in what you were saying. I mean, the size of it and the fact that it's global. Uh and for our listeners, I think this is part of our global the Microsoft global hackathon which is um it's a huge thing. I mean, as you said, sort of 50,000 people involved in these things. Um, and it's not just Microsoft because you had external people in there, but do you want to like I mean maybe helpful for our listeners to talk a bit about what the Microsoft global hackathon where does it come from? How how does it work? You what's what's how do we do it and how do other people maybe think about doing something like this. Beth, what do you what do you think are some of the things that would you need to put in place to have this kind of program? Yeah, it's it's a really good question, Lee. So, I think um prior So, I'm I'm a bit of a a longtime person at Microsoft. I Boomerang. So I started Micros working for Microsoft nearly 20 years ago um left um after about three or four years and then came back about 5 years ago. So um I I've seen different programs from time to time and I was a little bit ignorant as to what the garage is, but the garage is the initiative behind the scenes. And I know you know a bit more about the garage than than I certainly do, but I think what what they have perfected um as an internal offering is a a set of materials and a tried and tested process through which people can work together to solve problems. And that set of materials I think is invaluable. But what I also observed was um people who have volunteered to be um sort of hack mentors and people who've been through the process several times so that they can support new people into the the process. We also have a number of local hack judges. So um uh I think people who've again been through the process and can identify um you know the the the better projects or you know the most effective um programs hackathons have always you know I've never I've always wondered a little bit about the effectiveness but I think it is really effective to concentrate people's attention and time over a set period. Uh we all have other commitments and getting people to set aside some time, dedicate it and do it as a concentrated activity I think is actually really a valuable thing. So I' I'd suggest that that is um you know those are some of the elements that would be um success make make a program successful. You we again because I'm a Microsoft um boomerang this concept of growth mindset I I must admit when I first heard it I thought it sounded like an episode of Oprah Winfrey um that I' I'd hear about um you know self-development but it is true that people come to this process with a really open mind and ask lots of questions and try to learn as much as they can and that pro you know and and be willing to risk things and try things test things out from each other that rapid iteration and as a tool to encourage other people to adopt this innovative mindset. I I I wonder how effective that could be um if we're able to extend some of these tools um to our customers and partners. But Lee, I know you've been doing a bit of research on the garage. What have you found out from from that work? Yeah, look, it's a fascinating area and I'm I'm bit like you Beth. I'm a I've been here a long time and I've boomerang back in so I got a bit of history in this place and you know I think it's probably fair to say that a lot of people might categorize Microsoft as you know kind of the the old god of technology. We've been here a long time 40 plus years and they sort of see the stories from some of our fellow players in this cloud world has been the innovators and the people that started this and the garage is probably one of those interesting stories that differentiates that and kind of calls that into question. So um look it's for a long time Microsoft's actually had a whole series of these kind of incubator startup kind of rooms and spaces Um but up until the mid2 2000s it was largely productled. It was kind of like you know we're going to have an innovator to do product X or product Y. Um so in 2009 the garage got started and and there's some really good uh kind of commentary from that early days as to what they meant when they started what it was about. I love this one. Um was this idea that um essentially ideas are cheap and they're not valuable. Uh everyone's we got millions of ideas. Prototyping and proving is far more valuable. And so they had this basic the the very first office which was actually open in Redmond campus in 2009 just simply had this principle on the thing on the door that just said um all are welcome doers not talkers and it was this basic idea that you know you come in and you do uh there's no place here for business conversation this is about kind of this idea we want to build and create things and so I think that's kind of you know it got its starting point from that idea and then there was a whole bunch of um uh empowerment across business for people to just go and get involved. In fact, it did actually start out largely as an office thing. It was kind of our back uh research around the office platform. But of course, you know, 2009, early late 2000s, that all started to expand out to the point today where the garage has become this 24 locations around the world, physical places where Microsofties and customers and externals get together, think about just prototyping and solving problems. And it and it works on this sort of very common principle that's well known in the in the um design thinking mechanisms this the ideate process you know you you bring sort of that that passion for an idea uh to the room you build a vision around it you create a scenario for it you and you've you ever seen the sort of the um what do you call it's like the the think the uh what do you call this hourglass the hourglass approach you you start off really big and wide at the bottom with lots of ideas and things on the table you narrow it down to a scenario and an idea and a concept in the narrow and then you start going out to do the build and that's the second half for the thing and and it's quite simple. It works on that principle, but it just seems to work as a I think what keeps it working. I'm interested your feedback, Beth, because you did it virtually is, you know, the garage is about a place. It's about going to a space and having the the tools, the mechanisms, the whiteboards, the prototyping, you know, the the the soldering irons and bits and pieces to do things. How did it work in a virtual way? How do you collaborate and ideulate virtually? Oh, you it's a little bit hard to compare it to a physical experience having not really participated in a physical hackathon other than the fact that I would imagine the pizza um was lacking. Um I kind of associate hackathons with beer and pizza. So um uh you know I I still had a great experience. I didn't feel like it lacked anything necessarily that um a physical interaction would bring. Um, if anything, I felt like it it didn't matter. You we could all be effective in whichever environment we chose to be in in the moment. And I I guess that's the nature of hybrid work now, isn't it? That, you know, experiences are different, but they're not necessarily better or worse for being virtual or face to face. So, um, yeah, I I I would definitely think that um that you may be It's even more inclusive by being a virtual event that the fact that especially if you're having to do it late at night or early in the morning, you don't want to be That's true, isn't it? The the other thing I'd like to ask as well for both of you, I suppose, is you know sometimes these are too techy, right? Um the like when we do Microsoft hackathons or we think about hackathons or when our customers or people are listening to this now, you know, we thinking about hackathons. I did one piece of work with the University Technology of Sydney they've got a faculty of transdisiplinary learning or it's something like that it's got is amazing and they bring people from elsewhere in you know so they bring a lawyer in and a marketing person and somebody from you know all these kinds of different faculties because because so this this is my problem in my mind one is you need people to come in and think about some of these problems and really ideate properly rather than get the the the lens of technology only and jump to conclusions really quickly. But then you also got the issue which we have when we do protay which is our kind of university entrance thing of if people aren't in the domain of technology then they struggle to even think about what you can do you know so you've got almost you almost see the best of both worlds uh you know um what do you think about that lead because um you know there there's there's the people who know and there's the people who don't know and it's about trying to mingle everybody together, I suppose. Well, look, I mean, you're right because I think that's almost the history of the terminology. I mean, when Beth said then, dear pizza, there's this sort of a um I'll use the word, I don't mean it to be in a totally negative way, but there's a bit of a misogyn misogynistic uh pro kind of tech bro kind of thinking around that it is about men doing beyond pizza. But I think Beth, I mean, as you kind of said to me, I mean, you know, you sort of said yourself, it was such a multi-disiplinary group and you're not a technician. yourself. I know you've said that yourself, but you come into this and you can contribute because what you find figure out is that actually building taking ideas and then forming them into uh visions or strategy that can actually be executed takes more than the technology. You know, I think you had said you had a storyteller in the room and you've got, you know, kind of project managers um ad people who just simply advise and direct you in a particular way. It I think it just actually requires all sorts whereas historically and I'm going to I've got a brain tease a question people but historically you know that idea of the the the startup the startup has been about the technology in our industry at least. Yeah. And and to to take that to the next level a little bit well not next level but but when we thinking about things that we've done in schools for example we're younger kids you know where they might not have an idea of the domain or the social problems you know you go you could go to kids I remember when I used to teach and you say right we're going to solve a problem here with Excel or whatever and they'd struggle to come up with some social problems, you know, of how they, you know, because they haven't had, you know, aspects of business, they might not understand personal finance or whatever. So, um, when we've done the the AI for good hackathons, which now come out into Imagine Cup Junior, which we've done multiple, um, uh, sessions on previously in the podcast, the key to it has been to make sure we've got a curriculum that stands up to support people going through that. So, a hackathon isn't just going into a room and kind of going okay well let's ideulate on it. It's about a coming up with that problem like you said but also giving people techniques and tools to say well okay um what are the you know I think with the with the AI for good uh stuff we do with education change makers and the like you know it's very much around um let's think about the problem but let's think about the ethical implications of this let's think about the technologies that are involved let's talk about those technologies let's understand what GPS Bluetooth um and and all these other facial recognition and cognitive services are because without understanding those you can't you struggle to come up with uh ideas or think outside the box a little bit. So I think that structure when we do things with with younger kids and K12 and even in universities to certain extent we've got to scaffold a hackathon. So it's not just sitting around with a pizza. It's about kind of saying well you have to invest that time in in learning during that process and having that constant feedback. back and discussion around well that might work but what what about this or have we thought about this um you know that curriculum part's quite important Dan you mentioned the imag well sorry you mentioned the AI for good and I nearly gave you away there but you know AI AI for good led its way to something really important and I think to you know you're making that point around the fact that it's not always about the technology that big body of work the Imagine Cup that turned into Imagine Cup Junior that you you know very well you talk about that because that wasn't even about building things that was just about ideating on. That's correct. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that was very much I I went in and ran a session with the school last year actually. Um about that actually this year. What was my best the time going? Um but yeah, exactly. It was about them ideating. They didn't even have to touch computers. It was all about ideiating and coming up with those ideas, but also thinking about the implications of those ideas and and what what what impact that would have on society. And then but you'd still need to know about the technology. So there was still an element, you know, that that Cup junior you know and then we've got the full imagine cup which is for university students is is very much uh around ideiating and solutionering some of these projects going through the design thinking process like you mentioned earlier on Lee and then but but you still need that curriculum element to kind of understand well you know what what are these technologies that are available you know whether that's VR AR cloud AI um all of these tools and technologies because otherwise you can't come up with a a solution. You know, my my my final little anecdote is when I used I've mentioned this on the podcast multiple times when I used to teach kids mobile phone design. If you just say to kids, let's develop a mobile phone app that chances are if you don't give them any scaffolding, they come up with a game. When you give them scaffolding and say what what what are available? What services are available in a mobile phone? You know, text messaging, multimedia messaging, internet, GPS, location sensor, accelerometers. Suddenly they realize, you know, and and they come up with better ideas and solutions for the project they've done. So yeah, you know, I love the Imagine Cup Junior. That'll be opening up again next year um academic year in Australia and uh you know, in January, February time for for those people in the Northern Hemisphere as well. So that's exciting project to run with. So if I think about sort of rounding this not not to wrap things up, but to round it up into some like how do you how do you move forward? because it's amazing as Beth talked about amazing opportunity to to learn from it. It's it doesn't require to be a technician. Anybody can do it. Um but I think you know as the point you made there Danny you can't just sort of go okay let's have a hackathon and we'll all just go build something because you'll end up with you know the Homer Simpson car for example or or as you say mobile phone game best car. It's a great car. Um so you kind of need to build. So I think one of the learnings we're probably all agreeing on is that you know you need to give enough guidance to make sure there's a direction but not so much guidance as you tell people. what to do. Uh that's probably one of the key things. Anything else you think would be good learnings between the two of you for anyone thinking about setting up or running a hackathon or event of their own? But for K12 to do that first while bet's thinking there is easy for K12 because we've got an Australian kit and a New Zealand kit and a global kit that you can download from our Imagine Cup Junior website which has got lesson plans in there and it's got structure uh to it. So, you know, that gives you everything you need if you if you're teaching in K12. even in university level. Um but but that again though is is sort of limited. You sort of controlling it a bit more. I keen to think about like learn from you Beth and what you've you've experienced. Well, you know, I think like any good um problem you you've got to start with the problem first. So this isn't a a hack to um have technology find a solution or an application to be to be used, but to to to you start with the problem. Um, one thing that I was amazed to find out a couple of weeks ago is that we also have a global hackathon for our partner community around the sustainable development goals um the STGS which are leading up to 2030. So this is something you know again Microsoft is the organization that keeps giving in in terms of all these different programs and activities that we have underway but it's you there cannot get any more complex or ambitious goals than the sustainable development goals. So they are starting with a set of these these goals and they're saying demonstrate how technology can help the world move towards achieving these goals. So it's not technology for its own sake but it's technology that can be used to solve a particular problem. So for me I think that's where you start. You you take the the challenge and it needs to you need to be solving a particular problem because otherwise it's it's not it's not effective. Um but definitely I think the fact that you can use this as a as a an inclusive experience that welcomes people with lots of different experience levels, lots of different perspectives. You know, the lived experience of people who might have had this challenge before I think is really important. And it's a it's you know it's a stealth mission to actually teach people about technology as well. So you know you walk away learn having learned a bunch of new technology skills. as well as um you know problem solving skills but there's not a barrier to entry um that is imposed by a lack of tech skills which I think is um is the thing that makes it as inclusive as it has been for me. That's a really good point and um trying to capture all this in my head and there's one last thing I wanted to add to it but you know if we think about the fact then that it is um you know it's it's uh it takes all sorts and all different types of backgrounds. It's not just about tech people and and that it's it requires some direction but not so much direction that you kind of force an outcome or you create a you know pred predetermined outcome. And then the last thing I was thinking about Beth as you were talking then is it's also it's not something to do with it's not a tech industry thing. It's not like it seems to be a you know it's quite attached to it. We always think it's a tech thing but you can do financial services hacks, you could do age care hacks, you could be doing educ I mean everything has this idea that with enough people and in a room or in a space thinking through the problems and being free to bounce ideas you create that kind of um that opportunity. So it's it's also about trying to do something right, isn't it? So I in my role I'm working with CIOS all the time and I think there's just it's definitely a sea change now when people are implementing large problems and not implementing problems solutions to fit the problem. You know you you there are there are there's a big view to kind of get something quickly out of this. Now, you know, the agile development methodologies taken off quite a bit obviously over the last couple of years, but but people are now really want to try to find rather than see something and then kind of fix a bit like we doing from Microsoft with lots of our products, you know, we put things in and then uh see how it goes, you know, because rather get things out there um not necessarily, you know, testing everything, but just getting the solution to market quickly is really really important. Yeah, it's and what's interesting you said there, Dan, about you know the sort of the speed of it. I mean one of the one of the things that a hack hack mentality or or a growth mindset mentality or agile mentality or however you want to sort of frame and word it creates for you is speed of innovation. It actually lets better ideas bubble up and you have a sort of a self-norming process where as a group the best idea tends to bubble up to the top. So I think there's a lot to be said for it as a way to it's not to be frightened to be scared of I think there's a people get scared of this idea that you know bad ideas will persist or What's the one the uh I think it was in the UK uh that the naming of a boat they wanted to call it and they call boat face. You know when you give consensus to everybody you get silly answers. That's not it's a great name for a boat. We should have had it. But anyway, I wonder if uh if there's if it's too late to rename the bureau um through collective uh that collective very topical the What was your brain teaser earlier on Lee before we end? Ah well yes I forgot to ask you something, but I have a question for you. So, what do the following five companies have in common? Google, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, and Dell. I'll give you a minute to think about it, but the clue is in the entire episode. Wow. Anyone want to take a stab? Do we develop technology around? Oh, no. No. I still do hackathons, right? We're all largely tech companies. That is true unfortunately but that was the area of my knowledge. It's the reason why the garage is called the garage because all five of those companies were started in garages. A right that's amazing. I I actually do know Microsoft Australia was um operated out of somebody's garage for the first few years as well. So even when we were up in the US, we still kind of maintained that garage experience. But isn't that that's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there are actually non tech companies. I just happen to know the the tech ones cuz you know tech nerd. Um and and but if you ever get the chance I've done it I was over in the US and I I wanted to go to the Apple the house in in um Certino where Apple was started and you but you drive past it but it's actually someone's private house now. Of course there are police on that road and if you stop the police will stop you. So we drove past at slow speed as I could and my wife was driving and I lent out the car with my camera went on my phone actually and got a couple of pictures. So I uh I do have a picture of it. Can I can I ask one question? I know we've coming up to time now, Lee, but you mentioned in one of the last episodes you got a Surface Duo 2 and you put that on because you were going on a trip. How did you manage with that device in the end? Did you love it? Oh, I do have a Surface Duo 2 for those of you who don't know. Again, this is a really interesting one. Not a hack outcome, but a Microsoft Android device. You know, one of those things that probably came out of that kind of idea thinking where we go, yeah, hey, Why not? Um, look, it's a great device. Amazing for traveling. Um, small, portable, great experience, particularly for Teams calls and that kind of thing. You know, it's big enough for you to be able to actually use the keyboard. For me personally, I'm still jarring getting my head around the jar experience of moving from an Apple ecosystem to an Android ecosystem. But as a as a device, uh, 100% like perfect for traveling. Cool. That's good. Like a bit of an ending around the hot ending. Yeah. Well, thanks everybody today as great to learn about all the hackathons and uh you know, we put some uh notes in the show notes for everybody to read from, but uh thanks again Beth for your insights. I love that CSIro hack. That sounds phenomenal. Hopefully we see more of the the fruits of that labor actually coming out soon. And uh thanks again Lee as always for sharing your uh thoughts on the garage and the history of hacking. Yep. Pleasure. Brilliant. Thanks guys. Thanks guys.

In this episode Beth, Dan and Lee and joined by Jan Owen AO. We discuss growing leadership from toads, skills and policy changes to drive future assessment. Digital Pulse 2022 (acs.org.au) "This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own." ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 9 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Welcome to the AI podcast, Lee and Beth. How are you all? Excellent. Very well, thanks. Dan, what's everybody been up to in the last couple of weeks? I have been doing a lot actually. We we have a learning day today um at Microsoft. which is a dedicated learning day. I think we get once a month to promote and allow people to spend the time investing in their skills. So I have commandeered learning day this month for social value. So I've been putting together a whole pile of content. We've got an event coming up and we've got a cooking class. So we have an employee resource group um that is uh uh connects um Asian people from lots of different countries together. um it's a global employee resource group and they've just set up a chapter here in Australia and so they will be doing a cooking class for us something fun and different for learning day and then we're doing a um a fireside chat with Steven Warl. Uh so that has an event that has as an event become slightly bigger than Ben her. So I have been spending an awful lot of time producing and putting content together in the back end. Um and I'm hoping that it will be successful. So fingers crossed I cooking the cooking a bit later. Beth, I know it's going to be successful and I'm somewhat hurt that you didn't mention that I'm also on that event that you're doing. I will be speaking at it. I appreciate that there are a lot more important people than me, but yes. So I've been prepping my content for your session today as well, Beth. I'm all set to go. I I maybe I'm late to the game here, but I discovered something this morning that has changed my life looking at my screen. So I'm getting a little older. My eyes struggle with the bright light. of the screen all the time. I just turned on dark mode and oh my god, my world is literally the opposite of lit up. My world is so much better. I can read the emails without sitting there going like squinting at the screen. So dark mode is my if you haven't put dark mode on and you're over 50, put it on. It's amazing. I love it. Um I use dark mode as well. Well, so there you go. Under 50 as well then. I I have not I've not heard of dark mode, I've got to say, but has it got the same effect as soft focus? that teams does in terms of how your face is visually represented. No, it doesn't make you look any younger unfortunately. But no, it look honestly what it does, it takes out the contrast. And in all seriousness, I realized I was trying to read a document this morning. In fact, I was reading a document related to our our guest today. And I just realized that my eyes were sort of hurting because there's this focusing on this white background. And I thought I knew I knew dark mode was existed somewhere. So I switched it all on and it's just the contrasting is so much better. So that's my top tip is get dark mode. Also, I'm a little bit excited this morning because I had a Surface Duo 2 arrive for me today and I'm very excited to play with that because I'm going overseas for a couple of weeks soon and I'm looking to use it as my traveling device. So, it's I've got those. They're great. They're really, really good. I'm quite excited about it. So, they're really good. If you're an Android phone user, Surface 2 is amazing. If you're an Apple phone user, you can't pry Apple devices out to people's hands. But the Android device is phenomenal. Lee, you'll really enjoy When we finish recording this, I'm going to be going to play with it. So, I'll show you. Not that I'm excited. I'm very excited for this, too. But I'm also excited for that. And for me, this last week, I've been in previous week, last week, I was in Edutech, which is an education event in um Melbourne. So, I spent the week there with my 12,000 of my closest education colleagues um talking about uh what's new and what's on the ground in in education. So, that was been uh that's been really great fun as well. So, it's a com scenes back on. Um I suppose some people are, you know, are able to travel, some people unfortunately aren't and are being cautious about that, which is which is absolutely fair enough. But uh it was nice to see people in the flesh and you know and also talk to you know a lot of people in education myself where you know really understanding what's happening there because we see a lot on the news about teacher shortages and stress and workloads and you know it was very evident that there's a lot of um stress coming in into that entire sphere at the minute and uh you know there's a lot of pressure on teachers and and and education. So it was good to see people but it was also kind of sad to get the reality from the shop floors. It was so yeah um uh that's what I've been up to. So Beth, who's our guest today? Well, tell everybody. We are very spoiled today. We've got one of Australia's best uh social innovation experts and entrep social entrepreneurs. So I have been blessed to know Jan Owen for just just over 10 years now actually. Um I worked for a nonprofit back in 2010 in um uh the school for social entrepreneurs and Jan Owen was on the board of the school and so it was a real privilege to meet Jan um uh 12 years ago and uh we've kept in touch ever since. and I have followed her work for many many years as she has um led some exceptional organizations and always circling around education innovation and the focus on on young people. So I was thrilled when Jan um agreed to participate in the pod and over to you Jan. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you guys. So lovely to hear all of you and to hear your um things that you're working on at the moment which are diverse and uh and interesting very interesting to me now I'm like obsessed with dark mode and going to be distracted the whole change your life change your life Jana tell I know I know I'm very excited so um yeah it's great to be here and um as well as having a long association with Beth also obviously been doing bits and pieces of work with Microsoft and Beth has also aly represented Microsoft in some projects that we've been working on together as well so wonderful to be here on the pod. Well, Jan, um we will get to some of the work that you're leading um now in a little bit, but I'd like us to start with a little bit about you. Um so, I was reading your uh biography on LinkedIn and I had to um actually look up some of the words um uh specific, but you have had such an incredible life and impact in the world. Can you give us a little bit of a snapshot of who you are and and what gets you excited and you know what your personal passions are? I I think there's a lot there. That's right. And this usually is accompanied by a glass or bottle of wine. So, um just Oh, hold on. Let's Let's all go get one. I forgot to tell you. This is not um Yeah, that's right. I've got this is really coffee that I'm holding in my hand. Um, uh, well, Beth, I mean, I kind of like to talk about my story from a kind of a different I mean, obviously I've been really fortunate to do lots of different things and to have a really varied career and to um, have worked with and collaborated with ridiculously amazing people in Australia and around the world. But um, I don't know, I feel like sometimes it's good to remember where we all came from. And I was a a kid in what was really pretty much country Brisbane um in at the time and I um was also this kind of had three really strong influences that I think really impacted my entire career and my life. One was I was very entrepreneurial. I don't know why. I don't know where that came from. Um I um don't know much about my backstory. I was an adopted child. So everything that I did that was weird and different to everyone else in my family was obviously because of whatever I came from. And one of those things was I was very entrepreneurial. So, I was that 8-year-old kid who set up a kind of a lemonade stand at the end of their driveway um and sold lemonade to, you know, passing strangers and cars and so on. The only the only issue being that the end of that driveway was about uh 45 minutes out of Brisbane City uh where about two cars went by per day, one of those being my dad coming home to work. So, I saw exactly one glass of le homemade lemonade every day to my dad. Um, which was, you know, a lesson in in failing fast. Um, but I went on to just always work within my environment. So, this is a terrible story and you can't even really tell this story now, but I'm going to, where um, my dad worked at the University of Queensland. He was a very senior researcher and he helped invent sunscreen in Australia and all that kind of stuff. us kids were we we were the first trial of sunscreen. So all kinds of creams were put on us to test them and then we were put out in the sun to b um but I he also was was linked to the veterary um the veterary school and we had many my my father was a man of um hobbies and so at one point we had a hund beehives on our on our acorage that we lived on and um in Queensland at that time toads and Dan I don't know if you know about toads but toads are a big deal They basically sit outside beehives and eat them as they come out. So they're they're not they're not any beekeepers friends. So I um I with my three younger brothers um who are all very close in age to me, but I was clearly kind of the boss of them uh we used to catch the toads and give and sell them to the University of Queensland because of course that's what toads and rats and mice are what um you know veterary surgeons and and lots of other people actually kind of do experiments on which as I said is not not really the greatest story. Um, but clearly from a very early age and this is kind of the second theme of my life became clear very early because I was the CEO and salesperson of toads.in and my brothers did all the work. So I sent them out in the middle of the night with the torches with the um plastic containers to catch the toads which had to be live which is terrible. And then I would organize the drop off which was organizing my my transport company being my mother to drop the toads off at the university. So I was very much in a leadership position from a very young age. Um and then the third theme of my life I guess was a very strong sense of social um justice. I my parents helped set up Lifeline in Australia. Um and in those days when Lifeline was set up you took a call which was an emergency call. Um you put the phone down, you then got in your car and you drove to the emergency. There wasn't a third party. So, because we were very young as children, we were often sitting under the desk at the lifeline office when those calls were taken. And um I definitely, you know, was in the back of the car as my parents went into family homes where there were, you know, very intense domestic violence disputes coming happening and came out with mothers and children. Um or I watched my father literally talk people down from jumping off the sort of story bridge in Brisbane. Um many a time from a really young age and those people would then come and stay at our house because there were no real services. There were kind of churches were the ones who did that work and that was kind of it. So at any point in time I would wake up in the morning and I wouldn't be in my bed. There'd be some other person in my bed or there'd be a family on our lounge room floor. And the thing that really came through to me though in all that was not actually necessarily those stories which were pretty horrific. It was that actually number one community supports each other and number two that actually with support you can reset and get back on your feet and that's what happened sometimes the mothers would leave the children with us for a while and then they would get on their feet and come back and collect their children and kind of move on. So that ability to kind of gather community around people and also reset your life were big really strong things that actually impacted my view about social policy and how um we need to be working better as communities and society. So, a kind of a weird entrepreneurial streak, um a strong kind of leadership streak, and then a kind of strong social justice was kind of three things that have really framed my entire life and everything I've done. What an incredible story. I I think, you know, as a parent as well, you think a lot about the ways that you can shape your children. Um, and I have lots of conversations with with my daughter, but I think it's it's what you do as a person. in your own life that perhaps can have the the biggest impact. Um Jan, I know that uh you have had lots of different roles across lots of organizations, but I wanted to come to your time at the foundation for young Australians. So I just love the FYA. Um I know that you you're not there uh now, but you you led that organization for a long time. I'd love you to explore with us, you know, the the role that you see young people taking but then also some of the work that you were doing in regard to the future of work because I you that that work was happening in 2015. We hear a lot about it now but you were really one of the first organizations to be having that conversation. So is is that something you can share with us? Yeah. So um as you say I think we were looking at the kind of landscape um that was occurring for young people what was coming and what the sort of future trends were and we were kind of very involved in education actually Beth which we're still being involved in of course as you know but um we sort of started to look beyond the horizon to the future of work and what would young people be going towards and therefore what would education need to look like to better prepare them. And so our first report um the new work order as it was called kind of looked at these very very big and significant themes, you know, around globalization, automation, and so on, and started to call those out and talk about what they would mean and the shifts in the world of work, um, and how they would impact young people. And then, of course, inevitably, we did get back to education because how we were the pathways and things that we were doing to prepare young people. But it was very leading work. Um, it was also leading work because we went to the demand side. So, obviously, you know, in There's a lot of conversation internally about what should we be doing, but we did things that had not been done previously. For instance, we looked at 4.6 million job advertisements across Australia and used, you know, some of the first data analytics work around to say what were the key themes and ideas that were coming through job ads. Not what the jobs were and not what the job ads were promoting, but what were they looking for? What were employers looking for? So I really found that um that sort of work every time we went to that sort of demand side we were bringing new information, new data into this very big conversation and of course we were interested in what it meant for young people. As it turns out those things were important for everybody in the workforce to understand the shift in skills and capabilities. The looking for what used to be called soft skills which we kind of outlawed that term in FYA very early and called them enterprise skills or kind of you know world global skills. So that kind of work, you know, we also looked at the entire economy in one of our reports and looked at 12 million jobs and how they might fit into clusters and we came up with the seven clusters. Again, we were foreshadowing what has now come to pass, which was growth in care, growth in the green economy, growth in technology. We were calling those things out in 2016, 2017 as really key themes. So it was a very exciting time to be talking about the future. work. Bringing that back to what must we then do to more effectively engage and prepare and actually inspire young people about the future work rather than bringing in the story about automation's going to kill jobs and the robots are coming. We were like, "No, no, no. This is an inspiring time to be in the world of work." Hey, Jan, it's I I it's fascinating to hear you talk about this. I I had the chance to quickly read through the the new work mindset work that you'd also done. But like I I've got a 15-year-old son who's just in the cusp of doing his HSC. He's just done his HSC selections, you know, and he's heading into year 11 and I'm just reflecting on, you know, what you've written about and what you're saying, but then I see the world that he's living in, which is still very traditionally aligned to old educational norms. And he's picking these subjects and he's going to a careers adviser that's literally telling him, you know, you have the capacity, your your skills tell me you should be a and I kid you not, I think it's like a a a town planner or a software engineer. It was just this bizarre thing. So, what what's I mean, look, we should we'll get into the tech side of things and how tech's impacting this, but I'm really keen to get your view on is everything catching up with the thinking that you're having. Is the education system adapting to be to take advant to recognize that it's really the skills and as sorry, you said the word soft skills and I've talked about this a lot. Soft skills are really really hard, visceral, impactful, important skills. And I when I say to my son, he says, you know, what what what do you do in your job? And I say, well, I I talk to people. I engage in contact. I I build trust and I tr and these are soft things. I don't do anything hard and it, you know, it's all of these things. I'd love to get your thoughts on how how you might talk to a 15-year-old about these things and and how the education system's adapting to be ready for what you're describing. Well, how I would talk to It's all really good points, Lee, and I'm sort of sad to hear that story about your son, by the way, but it's the first time that I've I've heard that story either. Um, in fact, many, many, many times. So, we've still obviously the system is still lagging. Um, because everything that you said to your son about what you do, um, and how you do it, um, was exactly what our our reports showed. I mean, they said things like what employers want is people who can communicate, people who can collaborate, people who can um design, people who can think um across cultural divides, you know. All these things that were what we would call you know as I said used to be called like nice to haves are now absolutely core. It doesn't mean that you don't need technical skills of course. So nobody's saying that you shouldn't do reading and writing or you shouldn't look at an area of kind of a vertical that you're passionate and interested in but it does mean that we're trying to round out and have a much more holistic view. The other reason for this and one of the drivers is that the shelf life of an average university degrees down to about two years. So you know every employer is talking constantly about upskilling, reskilling or even more importantly as of right now learning in flow of work and life. Like how do you learn in the flow of work and life? So we've got to say to 15y olds things like guess what? Don't worry too much about one big decision or one big career because you're going to have seven jobs in five different industries across your lifetime. Now, good news, that doesn't mean 17 different degrees or courses. Just means that actually jobs and skills are more linked than we thought. So, what you want to focus on is what are the transferable skills and capabilities that you have. You know, are you really good at teamwork and collaboration? Are you really good at kind of entrepreneurial thinking? Develop those things. Develop those skills and capabilities and you will find that they are applicable. able across many many many jobs. That's what our research showed. Um, don't get hung up on the one. And by the way, once you get into one industry, and the care economy is a great one at the moment. So is the green economy. Once you get in there, it's like a lily pad. You can jump from job to job and including there's a bunch of lily pads that we don't know what those jobs are yet, but with thinking about skills and capabilities, you can move around. So, you know, there would be immediately there's about 30 jobs that are linked without you having to go back and do another degree. Because one of the things that happened in the 2000s is that young people got trapped in this idea that you had to keep literally getting more qualifications to get a job. And that was actually the biggest kind of con really around the world of young people, which had them ending up in massive debt, by the way, because they were told, "You've just got to keep studying. You're not prepared, so keep studying." Whereas actually what we need to do is work out what are those skills and capabilities? How do you recognize and articulate those much more clearly? And from 15ly, from your son's age, what is he doing in school, out of school, around school, with his friends, at home, with you? Um, which will get us to learning creates in a second, but we're trying to understand much more how you recognize and articulate the whole person. You're making an assumption there about a 15-year-old and having conversations with his father, of course, which is, you know, not something we have. Can I ask Can I ask a question? Can I ask a quick question as well? You know, reflecting back on the research you've done and now, you know, we've had a couple of conversations on this podcast in the last month about how the pandemic has changed adults experiences in work and uh you know the the needs of employers and employees now is changing. When you look back and reflect on some of that because it was amazing when you were articulating that that those things you so long ago are still so relevant now. Is there anything when you reflect back that that may or may not be relevant to this new pandemic era that we've just come out of or still in uh yeah still still in is it sort of endemic now isn't it? Um then I think that probably none of us predicted I mean you know none of us predicted that we would be using platforms in the way that we're using. So you know Microsoft teams or all those all the things um that we would have such access to the kind of technology that is available and I think that's definitely changed. We didn't we weren't really thinking about that back then at all um and how that would lead to better flexibility and better choices in terms of how you worked and studied. But I'm still you know to me I think we just still need to be a bit careful. You know there's still um 250,000 families in Australia. That's a lot by the way. 50,000 households that don't have secure Wi-Fi and internet. Um so you know there's a there's an equity issue here that is still although we may be moving quickly into the future um I think in Australia at least we would have a very strong view as a community that that should be everyone should be getting access to that that opportunity should be for all. So you know although we've seen some of these changes and maybe some leaps Dan I don't know that they are equitable yet Um, and I think we maybe would have said that back then as well around even some of the opportunities for young people in the future of work. How, you know, what are the barriers to those opportunities? Jan, I want to there's something you said when you were talking about that period of time, I think you said the early 2000s where young people were sort of encouraged to just overeducate, you know, and focus on this kind of continual learning process. And I think about the time that, you know, when I was in the sort of 80s and 90s when I was forming my career and it was all about get a job, get stability, get into one place and stay there. And we've gone through these phases and so I hear a lot about this phrase of being the gig economy phase. Love to get your thoughts on that word, the gig economy. Is it a real thing? Does it does it bely the true nature of what it is? Is it a good description of what our future looks like for for young people's careers? Yeah, I mean it's a really good one, Lee, isn't it? Because obviously also in technology, it's been a gig economy for quite a few decades for lots of people actually. So in fact, that was probably one of the leading areas of the gig economy that and hosp um which has always been a gig economy. So it's not a new idea. I think the reality though is that two things about the gig economy I think. Number one is that um it isn't all kind of sexy co-working spaces and lots of drinks on Friday afternoon, you know, with really cool people with whoever who only wear t-shirts. Um it's actually, you know, for a lot of people it's an insecure and very precarious The gig economy showed up in a very ugly way in the pandemic and we saw that through age care for instance where we discovered what lots of people knew but nobody talked about that people had many jobs and were having to go from job to job to job to make a job to make a whole job to get enough money to pay the rent. Now that might be okay in hospital but it definitely wasn't okay in age care as it turned out in the middle of a pandemic. So let's kind of get a reality and kind of take off the rosecolored glasses on the gig. economy, what it really is and what it really means. However, on the other hand, if you actually try if you are actually to get more conscious about the gig economy and understand how those gigs may uh help you build out that kind of skills and capabilities that you're looking for and um you are able to articulate those across different things, I think that's fine. So, you know, whenever I say to whenever I I go to schools and talk to 15y olds, I say, you know, when I grew up and where my parents grew up, there was like a one path. You chose your path. Um, there was often a sort of a ladder. It was quite relentless. You got up the top of the ladder if you're lucky. You know, after whatever 40 years, you got a gold pen and off you went, you know, in Australia, Dan, you put a caravan on the back of your car, drove around Australia, went home, retired, and died. Like, that was it. Good life. I've got no problem with the go around Australia caravan. I'm not I'm not dissing that. But now you know, and then you say to a 15-year-old, there's that or there's um what looks more like a jungle gym where you go up and down and in and out and you have a lot of different experiences, but you're on the jungle gym and so things are linked and joined up. And to a person, if I say, "Which one do you want?" Most of them go, "I'll go the jungle gym." I don't know if that's because they've just come out of primary school and it was all jungle gyms literally, but you know that idea that it's okay if you are if it's a jungle gym as long as you can link it as long as you can link things and I think we found this a lot where you know I if I've met one I've met a million baristas who have got two or three degrees now being a barista is not going to help them get get to the path of the kind of degree that they were whereas if they could even get um a casual or start to think of their first job in the area that they might be interested in then it will be a much smoother pathway for them. So, you know, all of this is about thinking about how do you utilize that idea um to create flexibility to create opportunity to link things. Um so, it's not that I want to, you know, kill the gig economy so much as I'm I don't want it to be precarious and insecure and I don't want it to be meaningless actually that, you know, so they're the things we're looking for. That's really insightful and that that whole point sorry Beth I mean that underlying in sort of insidious reality of it is something that often gets lost. So, it's great that you you bring that out. Sorry, Beth. No, I was just going to ask Jan. Um, you know, we'll get into Learning Creates in after this, I think, but I can you tell me I I think one thing that I've always admired about your work and about your process is the way that you involve people in the decision making and that through all of the work that you've championed over the years, you've actually put the the you know the client as it were. So young people with the foundation for young Australians, you put them in the driver's seat and you've empowered them to talk about what they want and you know what they're scared about and what can you tell us a little bit about the process that you you undertake to do this research where you're really empowering those people to be the you know the authors of their own destiny as it were. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean I think Beth as you know that and increasingly I think this is definitely a trend. You know the three things I talk about all the time when I do you know a lot of public speaking which I do and it doesn't matter which audience which I think is super interesting whether I'm talking to business or parents or students or teachers. I talk a lot about agency kind of meaning and purpose and mastery sort of three really really key themes. And so you know agency and that sense of autonomy that sense of being able to to um not only create your own kind of adventure but also contribute um and having the agency and the skills and the opportunity and capability to do that and also the confidence I think is incredibly important and I think they are linked to a sense of purpose and meaning I think you have a greater sense of agency if you have a sense of purpose and meaning in what you're doing you do feel more confident you are more committed you are more passionate um and then the old the age-old idea of mastery which it is an ancient idea A actually which I think we've lost because as much as we can say you know you can and my son has definitely done this he has crafted and launched a career on Tik Tok with tiny videos. Um so as much as you can learn very quickly and in snapshots the idea of actually uh deeper learning over time the idea which is a lost art of kind of finding a master or mistress um and having that kind of you know deep mentoring over time um Those things to me are all absolutely linked. You you will have much stronger agency if you have purpose and meaning and if you have mastery where you're gaining learning and understanding. And so that's that's always been my frame on this. It hasn't been like you should engage young people because it's a good thing to do. My frame has been agency, purpose, and meaning and mastery are all linked. They're all one story about who we are, what we believe in, and how we want to contribute to the world. So if you are thinking about how you give effect to that in every context whether it's a work context a school context a family context dare I say um because we learn most of these things in our family around the kitchen table um the the way that you give effect to that I think is how is how it it shows up in your life and so these things started for me when I was you know when I was a very very young mother and I was a young mother um and you know we we started when my children were three we would start, you know, we had family dinner around the table was locked and loaded. Um, at that time it was hard to get people off Minecraft, Dan. Um, but but pretty much it was, you know, let's have this time and every single night we would go around the table and say, what did we see and learn and hear today? Um, and what what made me what happened that made me think differently about something? So that inquiry kind of open curious mindset. Um, and our kids still did it. You know, we also had once a year, which we used to do on Australia Day, was just kind of the day where there was everyone had a shared kind of public holiday, but um you know, we would have a day where we planned and again from when my kids were three, we would plan the year ahead. It was always around three things like school and work, kind of learning and personal development, and then kind of family. And we had this sort of trifecta going all the time where you would plan against each of those things. And then we'd have a midyear review and then we come back. So, Sounds a bit like a business. It wasn't. It was much more fun than that. But you know, we just these ways of thinking have just always been part of whether I was at create Beth where you know I with with young people in care we set up the first consumer body of young people in out of home care and foster care across the country. So and you know I was one of those kids. So it's just how do you how do you bring that just way of thinking into everything your family life your work life your um just your relationships. And so it's very it's it's not something that I kind of impose. It's just a way of working and being in the world. Jan, can I ask you a question on something you brought up there because you were describing this sounds like a seemingly perfectly fam perfect family life of sitting around the table having that conversation which I aspire to. But I wonder what your view is. You know, I look at kids today who whose lives revolve around technology in the same way that as in the 80s probably revolved around movies and music and to the same extent our parents hated that as we probably now hate the way our kids live on technology but it's a real delicate balance because in some ways it's destroying their like you know kids don't read like they used to do they don't learn in the same way they learn in microlearning on YouTube and other things but they're also developing this capability to exist in the world that we can't foresee yet because I'm old and they're young and they're going to do things that I don't get what's your view on technology and kids and how it's helping shape them to be ready for that world of work of the future. Yeah. I mean my my view on technology is exactly the same view that probably it must have happened when um you know washing machines were introduced um in the industrial revolution and all the maids and laundry people in the world went on strike and you've got these pictures in London and the UK where they were you know there were hordes of them going down the down the road and of course it was um stabilizing. Of course, it did change the way people worked. Of course, some people, you know, had to upskill and reskill to use a washing machine. And yes, it became also though um it democratized that whole, you know, we all started doing our own washing instead of relying on other people to do it. And I honestly I think this I think about these I think we've got to have a a backwards, forwards, and a forwards future view about all of this. Um I do believe that technology is just another one of those. Um, Lee and I do think it is really ubiquitous obviously. I think it is clearly incredibly important, an incredibly important tool and it has absolutely revolutionized our lives and will continue to and including democratize many things from education to work to access to work. Um, a million reasons, banking, insurance, all the things that technology can give particularly people in developing econ economies, you know, the ability to leapfrog a whole lot of um poor conditions to get to a better place. And I also understand that on the flip side, it is also um incredibly um I don't want to use the harm the word harmful, but it's incredibly challenging in some of the ways that it's used. So, yes, I do think that um social media is really complex and also extremely um destructive. ive for some young people and children also adults. Um so I just you know I don't think we can dump technology all in one as you guys know way better than me because you're Microsoft. I think we just need to think very carefully about um where do we need to I think regulate. You know there's a lot of conversation about the metaverse at the moment and I would love us not to end up with the Silicon Valley of the metaverse. I would love the metaverse to be much more democratize. I'd love government to get involved much sooner. Um because not everybody is a Bill Gates as we know and has a kind of altruistic worldview. Um so I do feel like there is a much bigger conversation about how does the community and the society and the citizens want to use the technology and how might we make collective decisions rather than a bunch of decisions by some guys out of Silicon value about how we're going to use technology. And I do think with new platforms, we need to really push and um argue and also hold the line that we need to have a much much more democratized um view about this and conversation about this and government must must must step up and not wait for things to happen and then try to melate the you know the the difficulties. So I went from the kind of your sons and our children's to kind of the the policy environment there. Sorry, but I do think it is a policy conversation actually and yes it does impact our children. Yeah, I totally agree there and and you know as as parents or you know people who who work with kids you know regularly you know you get caught in conversations and headlines a lot and and sometimes you know it's the policy that needs to change and we need to think about this at a bigger bigger picture. You know I got caught up last uh last week in in a school kind of WhatsApp community around you know, where the mobile phones should be banned. You know, this is the a perennial thing that happens, doesn't it? When uh when when there's a school that removes mobile phones and it's so nuanced a lot of the research and things that happens in there. So, yeah, I think that, you know, and then the and the work you've done in the in the past has really resonated a lot and and the work you're continuing to do now. So, maybe you can give us a bit of a insight, Jan, on to learning creates the the the work you're doing now and and what the ambitions are for the learning creates program. Yeah. So that the learning creates work came out of all the FYA work. Um so we sort of set up Learning Crates while I was still at FYA was sort of a a kind of a legacy project around that sort of education like we're going to have to yes we can talk about the future work but we're going to have to work on education learning. Um and so the and all the themes that we already had I think came together but what we decided to do was um focus focus in on a particular area that we thought might have the biggest impact and that was if you could change the way that we assessed what young people know and can do that would have the biggest impact on the system. So right now in Australia you know we have this magical thing called ATR which is like the kind of be all and endor of um of high school um and you know you kind of live and die on that and of course when you get into the research you don't live and die on ATR within 12 months of having finished your HAR, nobody cares, nobody asks you about it. Um, and yet you've kind of invested a whole lot of time, effort, and processes and systems in something that actually may not be fit for purpose anymore and may not serve us. When also ATR, like Nat plan, by the way, was never really meant to be a big league table. We weren't meant to be doing the the rugby here or the AFL here. It was meant to be just ways that people could track how young people were going, including young people and parents and schools themselves. So, things have kind of got blown to be bigger than they really are. But our so we've worked for the last two years on a project that started to look at um how could we have a new assessment and recognition system that was valid um that was trusted and that recognized all that young people can do not just an academic record um at the end of year at the end of senior secondary um and so that's been a fantastic experiment. We had a big collaboration consortium around that including Microsoft has been part of that. We've worked very closely with the University of Melbourne and a whole bunch of other people. But we did it a bit differently as as Beth knows which is what she sort of intimated in how we do things which was we set about kind of a challenge question about how might we develop this recognition system and we decided to go sort of from the ground up. So rather than sort of from the top down let's just go and lobby ministers we said let's go and talk to people in communities and schools in communities and let's pro type some different ways that this might be done. So we use code design and human- centered design methodology um partnered really closely with Price Waterhouse Coopers and the difference um the impact assembly sorry there and started to work in communities and with teachers and students and um young people that weren't students who were students and industry and start to say what might it look like if we had a different system what might that look like. So right now we've got a fantastic project going in central Queensland with um some schools around um a first nations project which is looking at again how does first nations knowledge and experience and expertise and ways of learning get better integrated into particularly for um young aberiginal and toristra islander young people how does that get represented in their representation of themselves so if you are you know right now if you are a young person in many um schools. If you're a originalinal touristra islander and you went to for instance go and do something that was culturally important in your community, it might be as simple as going and doing acknowledgement in a country in another part of your suburb or at another organization. You would be marked absent from school. Now, that doesn't seem right, does it? That something that you're doing which is culturally appropriate and a massive contribution to your community and to your culture is not understood and articulated as oh no that's actually part of your learning from your from a cultural perspective. Um equally if a young person um is looking after a family member who has a disability or a mental health issue or um or is doing something in their community and they're not at school for a particular day. Why don't we better understand what they know and can do as a result of being a carer? Why isn't that articulated into their their whole story about themselves? So we'll see a lot of tools emerging from learner profiles to career portfolios. There's a bunch of words flying around. You probably heard them at edtech, Dan. Um, but we'll start to hone in on number one, what might a what I call a beyond the ATAR era look like in Australia? And by the way, this is a global conversation. So, what does it look like to get beyond this kind of one narrow lens on a person at that sort of senior secondary level and then how might we articulate it? How will we assess it? How will we make sure that you for instance as an employer trust a sort of an an assessment or or a portfolio or a a profile that somebody comes to you with that says this is what I know and can do. Yes, it's got academic records in it but it's got all these other things and I want to show you who I am as a whole person even as a 16 17 year old. That's the work. Long way to go. We're just at the beginning. Um, but the work is, you know, very very much involves young people at the center driving this. Um, but also communities including First Nations communities and also industry partners like Microsoft are incredibly important to test and validate um, this work. Um, and of course we are working with governments along the way. Um, and uh, South Australia where some of you are and Beth is is one of the leaders in this in the country. So we're definitely working with governments and engage with governments and policy makers. But we wanted to see what it looked like to design from the ground up some of the solutions or ideas. I love that be beyond thinking because it is such a pivotal moment and an emotional strain on young people. Um let's set aside the energy and effort they have to put in and that and I mean I'm just looking and it happens to be this week as you probably would know in the UK it's their uh university announcement week. So and I'm seeing all this stuff in Twitter about parents dealing with kids who didn't quite get a score and so this is sort of a life destroying moment and of course it isn't but you know but that's the that's the world we built and so I think it's just amazing what you've thought about uh Janet um you the way you're thinking about this problem is inspiring so thank you and I think Lee you know the myth busting is really important like for instance people don't know that 48% of students who go to universities didn't go with the so who knew like straight up like that's half students didn't aren't entering with an ATAR. So, like it's already kind of a bit, you know, of a of a legacy piece. Yeah. When I was when I was doing um in charge of like the sixth form education in the UK when I was teaching, we used to do like a record of achievement uh and and it was like a just a document that I'd made up in publisher or whatever at the time. And it was they they'd go to their lessons, but then they'd have to do community service and other stuff. So, a we'd fill their time in in the the timetable. So, they weren't just going off um and and doing other things. But if they genuinely cared about something in the community, like some would work in old people's homes, some would work in the local vet, some are working already. A lot actually, in fact, were working already. So, it's a good opportunity for them to fill that personal record in. It was really helpful then when you they were writing CVs because kids when they write CVs these days, they'll kind of sit there and go, "These are my qualifications." And the qualitative stuff that they do are often forgotten. They they don't realize that actually the skills they've learned, you know, washing dishes in the local Italian restaurant or whatever are really beneficial for for the jobs of the future. So, it's great that you you're working on that. I I really hope that the governments and things can start to really embed that in in curriculum and policy because it always seems that exactly like you said that we need this there's like an old mechanism in curriculum and assessment and design and university entrance that needs to be broken and nobody has ever cracked that before. That's right. There's a lot of work to do and um I think yeah I I I think if we can bust some myths and also if I think we can um get that recognition Dan because as you say I think everybody's always had these stories but they were kind of bolt-ons or nice to have extras. It's about how we were talking about soft skills Lee. So now we're saying no no no you can actually assess the skills and capabilities that that of those things and that really changes the game because that then does make it very valid and a trusted kind of source if we can have it assessed. So we're kind of yes all the things is about you know taking all of those to the next level um is a very exciting time and again this is global work this is not just an Australian story this is a global story so um hopefully it means that over time young people and children and young people have a much better um ability to feel like they do have agency in their in their education learning in their life and as I said linking that to their sort of purpose and meaning about even their learning not that I was a um you know captive of the education system but it was a genuine part of my life that was sort of had meaning and purpose and enabled me to also explore and be curious about all the things I was interested at that time and then you know as I said that leads to that sense of the desire for mastery and for deep learning um and to find people that you can learn with and grow with. I I think listening to you, Jan, one of the things that occurs to me with my own daughter is to get her to learn to love learning because, you know, if if nothing else, we are all going to need to become lifelong learners. Um I know we've run out of time, Jan. I feel like I could listen and talk to you for for a lot longer. I do hope that we um get to see the um widespread adoption cloning technology because I I'd like to nominate you to be cloned several times over, Jan. I think we need about 600 more of you. Um, you do the most incredible work and you continue to inspire all of us. Thank you so much for everything that you do and thank you so much for joining us on the pod. Absolutely. Thank you. It's been fantastic. Thank you guys and good luck with your brilliant work as well. Um, really, really, really powerful and we love working with you. So, thank you. Thanks, Jen. Thanks,

In this episode, Dan is joined by the amazing Emaan Gohar and Jannet Gohar, technical interns at Microsoft. We explore the pathways into tech and their learnings so far. Schools outreach programs | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) U@Uni Academy | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) Women in Engineering and IT Cooperative Scholarship | University of Technology Sydney (uts.edu.au) "This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own." ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 8 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Hi everybody, welcome to the AI podcast. Today we're going to be doing our second part of hiring technology series and today we've got two special guests. We got Janet and Iman Goha who are interns interning at Microsoft and they've got some great stories to tell. So welcome both. Thank you Dan and hello to you too. Yes, I can't wait to can't wait to hear from you guys. So, so maybe at the beginning today, so to give you some context, we talked in the last uh podcast episode about hiring in technology and Beth Lee and I talked about, you know, the ways is different now after COVID, the expectations of people in jobs, even not just in tech, but people kind of thinking about hybrid work and and I suppose when you're interning at company, you know, you guys are at Microsoft at the minute, but but Normally when we looking at people who are interning, they obviously also um spend some time kind of in uni as well. And it always like fascinates me the amount of dedication you have. You're kind of in uni and then you're in in a work environment with quite a lot of responsibilities. And I always take my hat off to you guys. So maybe what we could do is s think about um uh just you tell us your story about kind of what you're studying and and kind of how you've come into the the roles you're in and why you've chosen tech. So maybe pass to Janet first to give give us your kind of story there. Yeah, thank you so much Dan for having us on here and um just to give a bit of introduction about myself. My name is Janet Go and I'm actually studying a bachelor of engineering majoring in software at UTS and um you know I'm in my final year. It's exciting. I'm going to graduate soon. Um a little bit nervous because I think getting ready for the real world is also a bit nerve-wracking. So um yeah, it's really interesting to see how or have grown since first year of uni till my last year of uni and getting two years kind of taken away from me after that because of co. So it's been an interesting ride so far. I'm currently actually interning as a customer engineer um at Microsoft which has been an amazing past couple of months and it's truly amazing to see how much I've grown just the past couple of months here and how supportive everyone's been. And I think aside from all work talk um you know a bit about just kind of what I do outside all this is that I really enjoy mentoring high school students and high school students coming from underrepresented communities. I'm very much passionate about that and I think we truly need more representation from underrepresented communities to give children and students an understanding that you know if I can do it and if I can overcome these adversities so can you. And I very much kind of go in high schools uh school you know primary schools deliver workshops um with my colleagues with my you know um peers and um kind of try to inspire students and see how their eyes ladder up when they get their robots working and you know running and it's really amazing to see how much of an influence that you can have just by going in and being a representation. So um so you do that as part of uni sorry to interrupt you but do you do that as part of uni stuff as well or do you have like programs you do that and engage uni or is that via your your time at Microsoft or a bit of both? So a bit of both actually. So Microsoft has two programs. So uh code protege and um Microsoft Student Accelerator. Um but I've been a lot more involved with uni um prior to Microsoft. So um they have heaps of different programs. So they've got like outreach programs, they've got the you uni academy um and you know they get a lot of um high schools and schools that are um coming from underrepresented community and lower socioeconomic communities to kind of come in and um see how much um representation there is at uni and how they can be really influenced with the skills that they have and use those skills to um basically involve as individuals. So it's truly amazing how so many people out here are doing so much for students uh especially coming under represent communities. Yeah, that's such a such an amazing story to go from you the UTS engineering side and then into the interning and then at the same time trying to fulfill your own desires to kind of support you know and represented uh areas in and in honesty areas but but people from various backgrounds whether it's women and people from different socioeconomic backgrounds that's like phenomenal and Iman from your point of view how was your journey has your journey been similar or or different yeah thanks Dan for asking that and I think my journey has been very different in the sense where um yeah we are sisters but we we've had different kind of support we have different kind of journeys and it's for me myself I I'm studying software engineering and I'm in my final fourth year as well but my my journey has been very more much more like a roller coaster. Um I graduated high school in 2018 and um and I know Dan we discussed this before. I studied off as um an optometrist before and did a year of that. Absolutely did not like it. Then I moved to do law and science and then I'm like is this really it for me? But you know um Dan like this is what best about having you know like friend circles or just people you know that are involved in tech or engineering that you get to see the fun bits that they're doing. And I saw that in my sister and I was involved in quite a few societies and programs like her and um had a lot of discussions about tech. So I got into engineering and I haven't looked back since then and um I've been doing that for the past few years and I just enjoy what I do and when I got the opportunity to just browse around on the internet one day um bored out of my mind and I saw Microsoft and applied here I I get to do amazing stuff here as an ATS intern and I'm in education space with you. So it's it's crazy how life works, right? So how did that how did that processor been? So when you were in your third year of uni, uh you were kind of looking uh online and saw internships. Is that is that what happened for both of you? Did you both see the internship stuff light up? And had you looked at internships before? For myself, this was actually one of my first big internships. So I took a big jump off um like you know, leap of faith and I saw LinkedIn one day and I saw people working at Microsoft. Um I looked into the jobs and I saw internships and I just clicked and it was a dodgy in the sense that should I go for it or should I not going to accept me then I'm going to accept him but you know what Dan I went for it I 100% I went for it and I applied my way through a LinkedIn and um now I am here yeah that that is so cool John was a similar experience for you and were you because you you obviously come from that um purist point of view where it was something you were going to focus on um was was that a similar experience for you actually a very much different experience from Iman and yeah and um so when I applied to engineering. I very much didn't have much support from my parents and my parents wanted me to do something within the medical field being migrant parents. Um that was something that they very much wanted me to do and um I remember the first couple of years I when I did engineering I could tell that you know they weren't really okay with the idea of me doing engineering. One of the main reasons is because um you know it's it's very much male-dominated and you know because there's a lack of female representation not just that I do come from a Muslim background and do wear hijab so a headscarf and um they just didn't they very much wanted to protect me from the discrimination that I would face if I was to kind of pursue a career in this field and you know I I applied I got in and it was a very much shock to them because they thought I was going to do pharmacy and I remember leading them on over the past couple of years in high school like I'm going to do pharmacy and then when I got into engineering they were so shocked and um two weeks after I uh accepted my degree I got a call from the uni saying that you know you can apply to this scholar ship and within the scholarship it was like a four-year scholarship that I'd gotten and it was a program where we'd get three industry placements and um over the four years I would be working within the industry. So one three month and two six month internships I'd gotten over the um four years of my degree and when I'd uh interviewed I got in it was so it was so surreal because I still still did not believe that I'd gotten in after signing my contract and um I think for me one of the biggest things is that when you come from like a school where you know a you didn't really much h you didn't have support from your teachers and you were very much undermined with your capabilities um you weren't supported with the skills that you had um when you come from very much that your your insecurities kind of go in the way of like oh wow like I actually got in and I still to this day don't believe that you know I was able to do all this throughout the past couple of years of my career and um I remember distinctly last year so it was my final internship my program and um one of my mentors was like to me at my internship he's like you know you should apply to other internships you know um get a different experience get an experience get an experience on how to um be interviewed in the industry and other organizations and I applied I applied to a couple of internships and I ended up applying to Microsoft I'm like okay look if I don't get in I don't get in if I apply but I won't get in if I don't apply so ended up applying got a very dodgy email dodgy email I remember because I know Iman also died and I remember 2:00 a.m. in the morning going to her bedroom. I'm like, "Eiman, did you get the email?" And then she's just like half dozing off and she's like, "I have no idea." So the next morning I had to go in again cuz she had no idea I came into a room. Um, and it's been history since then. And I think, you know, a lot of people will say would have very much similar experiences because we're siblings, but we both have a completely different journey with how we've grown over the past couple of years. So that's been my experience. Am Yeah, I just wanted to add in her bit and I think this is a lot of um these stories that we hear not many people tend to relate to them and I like talking about our stories my sisters and mine because my story was different to hers. I was third year university still yet to get experience just changed into my third course and I thought that I wouldn't be able to get in into any industry experiences and I used to compare myself to other people and say they already been to three industry placements they have so much experience up there but I had the passion and drive and I've got bit of experience in other places, but like you sometimes you when you match your stories and you match your experience and expertise, you let yourself down and your insecurities just grow and grow and grow. But I think applying to Microsoft and taking that jump, I feel like everyone should regardless of what their background is and what their story is. Oh, it's it's phenomenal to hear your stories there. And and how do you find, you know, that that entire process of hiring things like that, you know, did you did you um what was your what was your thoughts? reflect on, you know, going into that process I when when you know you jumped in with those other other people and you had to do some tasks. Can you reflect back on that and how did I feel? You know, I remember those there was around um three two rounds and I remember them as fresh as it can be really because it's been the most impactful interviews and conversations I've had. You know, Dan, the first interview we had was like um the hiring process gets really sometimes really tough in the sense you have your ups and lows. You doubt what you say. You always double think that am I going to get in the next round? Am I going to get um forward or no? And when you get you have the fear of rejection as well. If I get rejected, I'm not going to get in place anywhere else. So those are the thoughts that run your mind since the very beginning. Even when you get an email and say, "Hey, we want to push you on to the next round." And when you compare with other technical interviews in other industries, very similar. But with Microsoft here, when we when I did get in and our one of the first rounds we had was group interviews. Dan, sometimes a lot of people have the perception that you want to be really competitive. You want to be out there. You want to show yourself the most attractive to the recruiters. That's good. That's really good. But no, what I realized is I made the best of friends in those group interviews. We connected later on LinkedIn. We had lots of chats about tech. And we collaborated so well in the less amount of time frame because we had so much passion for technology. They all had similar stories. So while we were doing our bits and bits of tasks and all we were all talking about why we got here and what we want to get out of this. So it's sometimes you expect a list of um experiences and stories from this in these type of situations. So in our when you move on to the later rounds um and still having those thoughts am I going to get in? I should have done this. Was it what I did? Was it enough? Um when you go into the group interviews and we spoke to the hiring managers I know Dan you you interviewed me right we had a really good conversation about diversity inclusion. The thing is And um if you compare it to other technical interviews and other um places that I um interviewed at, Microsoft was the one hiring process where they gave me the voice and they gave me the platform to talk about myself, my passions and what I like and not like. It wasn't more about what we want to see in you. It was more about what I get out of you. So that's that's what I connected the best with and it's why I remember it saw as fresh. So what Janet, was it a similar experience for you or different? Um very much a similar experience I think throughout the hiring process. And for me it's also I think the two different um personality traits between me and Iman is I'm very like you will put me in a social setting and I will talk to anyone there even if I have I don't know anyone there and um the whole recruitment process. So um alongside Microsoft I was actually being interviewed for other um internships too and I think a key difference at Microsoft he was that Microsoft is very much focused on empowering individuals and empowering their employees. and very much on how you can grow at this organization and I did not see that in other places and I remember distinctly asking um a few questions on diversity and it wasn't those regurgitated responses on what HR wants you to um do it was very much authentic to itself and when having those conversations I felt at calm and at peace that knowing that if I do get in and if I do if the recruiters and the hiring managers do see me capable of being in this internship I won't um be worried that you know I can't be my authentic self and truly Dan this is probably one of the first times um when I'm like you know interning and working in an organization where I can be who I am as an individual and as I mentioned this already is that I do come from I do I am Muslim and um I am able to openly talk about being Muslim and talk about the practices that I um do. So Ramadan had come up a couple of months ago and my manager had told me like you know write a post about what Ramadan learn is and talk about what it is and how you grow as an individual. And till this day, she constantly says that, you know, it was such a well-ritten response and I learned so much from that key piece. And I never had anyone say that to me and I just truly feel very comfortable in my own skin here. And the whole recruitment process, I remember it was just very much like a conversation, you know, talking to them and I was just like how this podcast is. So I think if you bring your authentic self onto the table, that's what very much matters is people see through that and people will see whether you're true to yourself and understand who you are as an individual. Yeah, absolutely. And and from from the other side of the table when you look into those things, you know, all everybody thinks I with technology there's this myth about, you know, the way that certain companies, you know, bring people on and and ask certain questions and try to ask things that really tricky to answer and things. But actually, like the entire process, which I've been involved in anyway, is is all about trying to set activities so you can, you know, see what people are like genuinely. And it's not really trying to trip anybody up. It's trying to give you enough scenarios and enough space to be your authentic self. So you can come to the interview and you can say, "This is what I do care about and this is why I do want to work for company X." And um and and you know, I I know Iman's your your your interview, it went so well because you can understand what you're passionate about. You know, it was diversity, inclusion, and then you can pivot it around. Well, how is how how are you going to use Microsoft to to forward that um kind of imperative that you wanted to do? How you exactly like you said, how can you make Microsoft um you know, work for you, you know, as well as you work for Microsoft and drive those things. But, you know, I think um uh when you when you think back to it and if you're giving people advice, I suppose about applying for internships and things, what would you you kind of tell people I suppose in your situations now imam you know Dan um I got the opportunity to go to take New South Wales last week with the yeah it was absolutely crazy and so good because they were all my age and they've been all in similar experiences and boats but one key thing I took out of it there was this one young girl she came up to me and she asked me about my experience after our chat and she also changed a lot of courses to get into TA and she's like and she's like um Iman I think I'm a failure I I think I what I did wasn't enough. Um I'm 21 years of age. I don't everyone is so ahead of me. And I look at her in the eye and I'm like I was in your boat and I thought the same as well. But the thing is that no one gives us the reassurance that one we're not failures. Two, we've got a whole life planned out. And three, when we have those thoughts in our head, we absolutely ignore the fact that we need to apply to these tech companies or apply to technology areas where you can actually give your input you're passionate about. And I told her, I'm like, "Regardless of what you're thinking, that's what your environment is making you feel, but go ahead, apply. Apply to wherever you feel like you should go and be open about having these conversations because, you know, Dan, a lot of a lot of these young people and a lot of early careers feel like that." And also post pandemic, the pandemic has absolutely ruined our mental health state in the sense where we constantly ask ourel that I'm not enough. I'm not enough. I haven't done enough, I've been to uni, I'm all over the place. But This is something and they have so much passion and drive when you break all these layers. They're so passionate about technology and what in engineering as well and a lot of a lot of young people are like this and I keep I keep having these conversations and I had another one from um another school in outreach when I went at UTS and they they all they all think they're not enough and I just want to tell them to put yourself out there and apply to these areas because we want people like you that are passionate and there's room for growth and it's never too late. Yeah. It's interesting to say that COVID lens on it as well because um Janet I suppose you've seen a couple of different internships during your time going through as well. So like how's that you know going to those different places and and also being affected by COVID in those times as well and and I think confidence um what would your advice be I suppose uh what are your thoughts on that um in terms of interviewing Dan? Yeah and and and the different internships I suppose is a very question sorry. Oh for sure. No. No, all good. And um I I'll start with the internships and beginning in understanding what it was like prior to co and now during co and I think one of the biggest things is that um prior to co I remember just sitting there in a room when meetings would happen never giving my input in because I would feel very much intimidated by the people around me. Um but now that um and and there's always you know pros and cons to every situation but I think one of the positives towards being able to work online and being able to work hybrid is that you know you don't get intimidated by a group of people that are sitting in front of you. You're online on teams and you can give that input in and I truly think that's beautiful because I think I've been a lot more outspoken after um not conducting meetings in a group of in a meeting room and um it I I truly think that's amazing and I've very much um changed from being that quiet intern in a room to be able to you know give my input in and um talk about my own opinions and have that discussion with other group members there. Um I do believe that sometimes it can be really difficult to you know as Iman also mentioned is that our mental health is really important and with co it's been really difficult um being able to maintain relationships and I think prior to co we'll be able to maintain um relationships as interns and as grads and being able to have that connection there because there's a relatability you know we're on the same boat but because we're now we're online it's a lot more difficult to keep that maintenance of that relationship and um how do we kind of get out of that kind of hybrid learning and be able to have a relationship with other EIC's early inquiries and um I think that's truly important and there there are a couple of things that you know um we can tackle here but those are a few highlights I think from co um the interview thing so so like that's really interesting perspective on then from all your your understanding of that so what would your uh thoughts be if you were giving somebody some advice about going through that process yourself for sure and you know one thing I'd say is be reflective of who you are and each stage um of your life where you're at. You know, if you're in your early 20s, be reflective of who you are um and understand what makes you you. And as cliche as that sounds, being your authentic self and being able to talk about the adversities um is really important. Being able to talk about how you got where you are today because I can say I go to a random person and say, "Oh, I'm an um I'm an internet Microsoft, but you know, I I had a you know, a lot of adversities I had to face before I can kind of intern here at Microsoft and very much um adversities that sometimes I'm not comfortable talking um to people about but when I mentor high school students um that's what I discuss with them talked talking to them about you know I didn't get here because I just applied and got here I had to do all these things you know I faced crippling imposter syndrome I wanted to also get the validation of my parents um you know um maintain my marks at uni there are a lot of things that were there that really contributed towards where I am today. And being your authentic self and talking about those adversities is really important because that is where um we bring in perspective. Our experiences make us bring in perspective and um you know that's where diversity and inclusivity we can talk about all this um but that's one thing that I would say be reflective of who you are and then whilst you're reflecting understand what you can bring into an interview process um but in from like a tech standpoint Um I would say especially when you're as an intern don't be shy to say oh you're not aware or you don't you don't have much information um on for example if it's about security and you don't know much about security you can say that to your interviewer but just say also that you know I'm willing to go in and upskill myself in that area um and that's what tech tech you know the tech field is about you can upskill yourself on the job and don't be shy to say that because that also shows that you know you know you've got a gap and you know where to fill that gap up. Totally. Yeah, that's that's great. There's some good really good advice there and and like I loved listening to your stories and I think our final questions to wrap up today would be what everybody's probably asking is what's next for you both, you know? So for me, you know, like now I've got a really good understanding of where you've come from, how that process has worked, how you've gone through and in different ways, done several internships, done one internship, bounced around different courses, and then you've you've come out the end the kind of education machine I suppose to a certain level now and um it's kind of what's next what do you do next you know what what what are the kind of processes you follow you know do you uh apply for jobs internally to the companies you're interning in do you look externally how does how does that all work what is your what is your mindset and obviously you've been really busy in uni going through all of the co stuff so do you have a gap do you take a breather or what do you think about so so Iman for you, what's your next steps? I'm going to look at the short term and long term. I'd say in the short term, I just want to finish uni and make sure I graduate on time. Um, but in terms of currently, we're all um discussing lots of roles internally and externally because our internship program is for 12 months and now we have to look for grad roles. So, um, we're looking into how what our next two years or three years are going to look like after postgraduation and that's why we're um, all interns are currently working on intern um, in the intern program. But you know Dan um personally for me what's next and I ask myself this every day and I had this conversation with Jennet is I want to do a role or a job where yeah it ticks up all the job requirements but I want to feel satisfied that I left a bit of an impact to my team members or my team or just in general for myself. And right now what's next is I'm trying to explore and find what my personality matches best with an activity or a role at Microsoft or external generally and I'm cruising my way through and seeing what matches with me so I can leave that impact and also be able to help my team and in this tech field in general because I'm super passionate about it and being in the edges space I've my eyes have opened up so much I feel like there's so much to do just less amount of time and I just want to I just want to grab onto something and get out there so that's what's next for me that's what's next that is amazing that's great and Janet yourself yeah no for sure um so I currently obviously applying. So, ASPAR roles are hopefully so graduate roles are hopefully sooning um opening up soon and um that's probably something that we're all looking forward towards. But I think aside from that, I really want to, you know, graduate from uni and uh still continue on a lot of my impact work and uh being a representation towards the community that I came from and inspire young students and young girls that you know, you can get to where you are today. Obviously, it's going to be a little difficult, but just keep on inspiring them. I don't know how much of inspiration I can be. Um, but being able to just be a representation because I wish I wish when I was in high school, I was in year nine. Um, I had a represent I had someone that looked like myself come into my high school and tell me that, you know, you can do it. You can do this. You just need to put your head through it. And I wish I was able to be that. I I was able to get that guidance. And right now, I think, Dan, like one of the most inspiring things for me is that um my little brother when I got into my degree was that he was like I want to be a software engineer just like you. And I think that made me so emotional because I still this day I think about it is that you know I was able to inspire him in some way and if I can inspire other students facing very similar problems that I did when I was in high school um it could probably change their perception and get them headstrong and go into engineering and um that is something that I would love to continue doing and being a representation towards my community and work towards making it a more inclusive and diverse space and seeing more hijabi representation in industry. So well that's that's fantastic you know that like I don't know both of you like really passionate about about that area and I think you know it's it's a testament to you know you discussion here as well the the the impact you've had on us all in Microsoft and and beyond and our customers and partners and and people you meet you know your friends your family you know you you're absolutely inspirational you both are and it's been great to have your insight into your stories because you're absolutely right. I think when people look into any job, it doesn't matter if it's in tech or whatever. You know, it's hard for for people of your age um to think about a what jobs you might want to go through or careers, you know, you've gone through, you know, various different degree types and styles and and and you've had to negotiate COVID as well and do interning on top of it. You know, you've done a phenomenal job and it's been inspirational speaking to you today and and really appreciate you joining the podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you for having us. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much, Dan. It was amazing to be able to be a part of this. So, you know, Dan, one last point I actually wanted to mention was um from what I realized that going back to one of the questions you asked in the beginning is, you know, majority of Sydney where we in New South Wales and Sydney, a lot of the population comes from Western Sydney. And when I talk to a lot of these younger kids or older kids, why haven't you applied? And there's a lot of scrutiny and discrimination that's coming from our socio economic areas and a lot of cultural backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds. And I kid you not, Dan, if you look in the work they do, the demos they created, the innovation that they've done in schools and post school as well, it's amazing and it's bizarre. And if they just have that little push from people and organizations like yourself and I and bring them in, this industry is just going to rapidly grow in a short amount of time. And I just wish if if one of the people do listen to this, they get that push because we do need people from from those areas and come into organization like ours and expand totally and and and you know just to expand on that again as well you know I think there's a also an element in Australia generally where you got rural communities that feel as if they disenfranchised because they feel as if they got to go to the city and that's the same globally as well you know people go well I've got to go to Sydney or I've got to go to Brisbane or I've got to go to Adelaide or Melbourne to get the jobs because I got to be near the city whereas you know you can do a lot of the road now especially through hybrid has proved that you can do the the roles no matter where you are right and and and to take your point as well it's so important that we get that that recognition of people from the various backgrounds various areas regionally um you know I know Megan Towns on our team is always west is best west is best in Sydney she's always she's always yelling that and I'm up in the northwest in Sydney here as well and and I think um there you're right there are polarizing areas in whatever city you're living in, aren't they? And and people assume that people are from different backgrounds or from different areas and and they may have different abilities or they may get access to less resources. You know, I've seen some amazing work in like um CF West innovation college in um in Paramata Dascese where they've completely changed the the timets around Tiff qualifications, industry qualifications, creativity like it's phenomenal the stuff that's going on and you know we need people like yourselves you know I don't mean we as in Microsoft or technology I mean society needs people like you both to be able to advocate for everybody and us all and and you know you you know making sure that people like myself and everybody else uh that you come in contact with is aware and as empowered to drive that message as well right exactly and we need the retention we 100% do and I think going back to One quick story. I know we're going slightly over time, but you know, when when people do come into tech, we need to make sure that they're contributing as much as they can by making sure they're retained here with the experiences and the team makes a huge effort. Dan, you're an amazing amazing colleague. And it's because the drive that you give me, I I enjoy what I do in the edges space. Like a few weeks back at MCAPS, there were around 2,000 people in the hall that we were at, right? And me and my sister were the only hijabis there. And looking around, left, right, center, we just felt so out of place. We had double thoughts for the next two weeks and is this Microsoft a place for us. Should we stay here for grad should we stick on? But you know we love technology but we love our teams even more and we have realized the amount of growth we've had in this tech um teams and you know what Dan I'm happy to say I would love to stay on in any tech company because the people and our teams make me anchored and I love it here no matter what differences are. That's so good. That's amazing to hear. Brilliant. Thanks Janet. Thanks Iman. Thank you for your time. today and your insights are fantastic and your impact is amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Have a great weekend.

In this episode Beth, Lee, and Dan are in the studio and talk about the skills and hiring trends that they see. Digital Pulse 2022 (acs.org.au) This podcast is produced by Microsoft Australia & New Zealand employees, Lee Hickin, Dan Bowen, and Beth Worrall. The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are our own. ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 7 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Hi everybody. Welcome to the AI podcast. How are you doing, Lee and Beth? Yeah, really, really well. Actually, guys, I'm a year older since we last met. So, it was my birthday this week, just a few days ago. Happy We all sing happy birthday now. Is that what we do, Dan? Do we? H. No, let's not do that. There comes a point where you stop doing that, don't you? You stop singing happy birthday. Is that right? Well, actually, you say that I um I actually had to to be up in Brisbane for a a work offsite on my birthday. And not only did the team sing happy birthday to me, they did it twice. Um that the second time was in a restaurant in front of a whole pile of people. So, um I I do feel like um I've done my dash with birthday songs this year, but it was it was actually a really great birthday. Last this time last year, I was in isol Um, so you know, onwards and upwards, I think. Well, I it was birthdays. I I I had one of those big milestones, you know, the really really big ones, but I was in isolation. Yeah. I wish 30th, right? 30 30 years ago kind of thing. No, not quite for that, but uh but it was a big birthday, but yes, I was stuck in isolation. And, you know, I'm sure that's been the case for a lot of people that, you know, we laugh about the not singing, but it you know, it's important to celebrate and it was hard in in co. So, I'm glad you got to go and do something better and finally get out and and meet the team, I guess, up in was it the Brisbane? Did you say you went to? Yes. Yes. And you know, um it's it's funny because it's amazing to be able to meet people face to face after spending two and two plus years just staring at their face on a screen. And um and I think we've had this conversation before. You know, it does remind me how short I actually am when I meet people face to face and I realize I'm taller than everyone else in Melbourne yesterday and and I said, you know, some of them Some people didn't even realize I was Welsh. Some people didn't realize that I was 6'4 in joke. But um uh you know in Jess but yeah that that happens that happens also in social media as well. Just just audiences uh audiences sake. Dan is not 6'4 by the way. I can assure you of that. But he's definitely Welsh. I can't say anyone would not have spotted that. Dan uh as as you know my son saw you present at an event once and I said did he said it uh he had an interesting accent and I said do you know where he's from? And he said Welsh. So you stand out. found out in the crowd, my friend. Fantastic. I um I have a lot of Welsh friends, Dan, so I can I can pivot to to Welsh in um in under a second. And I've got to say, I know your accent so well that I even read your tweets in my mind in a Welsh accent. And there that's that's a action, right? In your own mind. Yeah, that's brilliant. So today's episode um we're going to look at some some of the kind of poignant things which are in people's minds at the minute. based on what we've been having conversations with, you know, in in the tech community in in our kind of social uh platforms that that we utilize and and try to bring some of those together. And the focus today is going to be around skilling, but also in the lens that we've just come out of co so everybody's in a degree of flex. There's a lot of change happening and what we thought was going to happen to say around technology is that some projects might go into the back burner, but actually what's happened is accelerated a lot of the projects that people might have wanted to be doing like AI and data projects, people migrating to the cloud which has meant that as well as uh dealing with the pandemic, people are also now putting a different lens on skilling. So in the last couple of years in my role as a technology strategist, the skilling conversation was almost like an afterthought. Whereas now people are pushing projects on so quickly that they're actually having really deep discussions about how they manage their team, what kind of roles they're going to recruit, for what kind of roles they actually even have anymore, you know, because some of the IT leaders are now also custodians of well-being in some places. So, you know, they they they pushing out say some of the Microsoft products like Viva and things where it's giving employees insights into their uh you know, daily work habits and things and and they're giving employees devices now for hybrid work. So, they they kind of starting to develop policies to do with HR. So, HR and IT are developing these hybrid working policy And and I suppose the words that are coming in as well with skill in which is which is quite confusing really because skilling sometimes in the purest form is you're a technologist you do these exams and you're doing this. Um but then you've also got your kind of generalist kind of roles where where you might be managing people as well. But then also you've got this lens of the employee experience. So thinking about when you are you know recruiting for the new world and the new skills and the new jobs you're also thinking Well, how do I recruit for people from multiple backgrounds from, you know, uh, people with autism, ADHD, different areas in that area. I know Beth, you've done a heap of work around this, you know, from people being reskilled out of other industries and then also how we think about, you know, retention and recruitment of staff as well. So, there's a lot here to unpack and we'll just talk about this generally and and with our own lenses uh to see where we go and and hopefully the listeners will have a bit of insight into where we're thinking just from our relationships and our customers and people in technology. Does that sound good? Sounds good to me. Good to me. Fantastic. So, can I kick off then? I know I've talked a little bit here, but I'll just kick off with the IT lens. Um, you know, I'm a technology strategist working with the IT teams in in schools and and uh other accounts that I'm working with outside education as well. And when I'm speaking to the IT teams, um, they are now really keen like I said at the of what are the roles uh what are the roles that Microsoft's recruiting for you know and it'll be interesting to have your lens on that Lee because you see this across a lot of lot of areas but you know I've seen in my uh you know particular experience that people are now recruiting in education for uh data scientists information architects security uh folks because I think what's the hybrid world has done is pushed three mega trends I suppose cloud more AI and data more and security is becoming prevalent. So they're looking for well what courses do I need to do? Who am I supposed to be hiring for in that kind of area, you know, and and so that's one element. And then on the second side of it, they're also asking me, well, how do we retain and recruit those people and how do we keep being mindful of the employee experience for us? So how do we make sure that people's well-being are catered for? Um because we want to, you know, employ and also give the staff the best experience around this. How do we connect? How do we focus? And how do we empower everybody to achieve more with the skills they got? So, so I'm seeing quite a lot of uh lots of different signals coming from IT teams um from a skilling point of view and from that empowering um the employee experience. So, so Lee, what are your thoughts on that? Well, I think my first thought is Dan is you have obviously had like 16 cups of coffee this morning because that was a uh that was a a mammoth introduction. Lots and lots of words to unpack there. But look, let me and I wanted to pick up on a couple of things. as you said, I'm trying to pick my way back through it all, but um you know, one of the key things for me is you talk about, you know, people asking these questions about what skills do they need to be investing in and what take, you know, what kind of where what areas of technology almost should they become specializing. You talk about things like AI and machine learning and data science. And I'm certainly not going to discredit the fact that being a specialist in some of those areas is going to be not valuable. Of course, it's super valuable and there's a wealth of opportunity out there for people like that. But I think it's also important to recognize that those are they they're sort of the careers in themselves. I mean they're life journeys that you don't just sort of go and do a course and say right now I'm a I'm an AI specialist. And I think we'd all appreciate that you you kind of there's an ongoing lot of learning to be done there. But what I'm actually personally seeing when I talk to and I I don't probably interview as many people as you do, but I certainly speak to a lot of people young in career or in jobs looking to think about how they transition into their industry. And I'm finding that as technology becomes so rich, deep, and complex and all-encompassing. You know, technology is no longer a thing that is constrained to the tech industry. Every industry is technical. Uh, every part of our lives relies on technology. And now, technology is starting to weave its way into every facet of what we do. Yeah. And I'm starting to find that actually the skills that we need to be hiring for, and I think, and I might throw to Beth in a minute because this plays to some of those work we've done around thinking about neurodeiverse hiring, is we actually want people that can an analyze problems in really interesting unique ways who people who can be dealing with a vacuum of information but still be comfortable and willing to work through a problem or work through a scenario. So the technology piece of it you know hey I know how to use Azure well hey I know how to be a data scientist well they're almost I would say it sounds terrible nice to haves but when you've got people that can can adapt to a scenario listen to a problem and then ask intelligent questions so you know, it comes down to some really basic skills for me, which is, you know, communication, listening, uh, understanding, and I don't know how you frame that as a skill. Probably you guys are better at framing that, but it's that idea of just being able to take in a bunch of information and think it through. I think that's really when I think about the skills, there's there's things that you need to be able to do, but those are the skills that are the core of it. Beth, you know, when I I threw you to that sort of neurodyiverse hiring piece because I know you know a bit about it, but maybe you want to talk about how does that factor into that thinking when we think about these kinds of non-technical product skills but more capabil soft skills as I think they used to be called. Yeah. So I I think there's a move to um uh to to move away from talking about it as a soft skill and more you know empowering skills or skills that are at the core of what you need to have as a technology uh professional. And interestingly you know I think we we hear a lot from the technology industry and many of our partners customers around the need for more people to to come into the industry and um and and certainly more people from diverse backgrounds with different lived experiences and different ways of tackling the the problem. And as we you part of that solution will be young people coming out of university computer science um and similar kinds of courses. But increasingly our partners and customers are actually recruiting people from a heap of different backgrounds with perhaps very little previous IT experience or recent qualifications from boot camps and other types of um other types of courses. So um and those types of people are being hired on the basis of their you know quote unquote soft skills. So as you're saying it is communication but things like uh an ability to collaborate with others and you know that recognition that um often working in the IT industry is is um a a team effort and you know being able to work with teams of people especially if you're working remotely or working with teams of people from across the world you know that people with that type of experience um are in high demand. I think also your your kind of point around being able to comprehend it's almost like sitting with ambiguity as well. Being able to move through because and and and and perhaps underpinning all of this is a commitment to ongoing learning and a natural curiosity, problem solving that some of those types of skills because I think, as you alluded to, the technology industry is so rich and complex and every time you think you understand what's going on, you're out of date because the industry is moving so quickly. That sounds like my life. Yes. Out of date. Okay. It feels like it it sounds Sounds like my budgeting actually my personal finance. But you know I think being able to be comfortable in an environment that is constantly changing and being comfortable with um you or being motivated by seeking to learn and seeking to solve a problem I think is is what um increasingly customers and partners are looking for and and they I've had lots of conversations including with you know major companies who looking to hire hundreds of people and they're just literally hiring on the basis of a aptitude or sorry of attitude and and they will hire people once they find them. So that they are hiring people who are coming into the IT industry with you know business management experience or project management experience or perhaps people management. Um they're hiring chemists, psychologists, retail workers, baristas, you know, you name it, they they they are finding talent all over the the place and you know, from some diverse communities of well as well. So, um working with disability employment agencies or agencies that support women returning to the the workforce after a career break and then of course um uh people coming out of the the Australian Defense Force. So, you know, these these are people who have a rich set of different experience and a lot to share. from the perspective of those types of experiences and once they're in the job they can learn the IT skills necessary to do the job but it's recognition that there's a lot of other skills that that we need as an industry and I think that's that's a the tangible thing I've always wrangled this because this is something I've always advocated for and I'm a total advocate for this the problem solving collaboration but I think I don't know if it really lands if I'm honest you know when when when we speak into when I'm speaking to kids and stuff like that and you know teachers are saying it to everybody you know it's about the collaboration and everything but then it's really hard I think you hit the nail on the head there it's about valuing those skills and making them tangible in some way so the way you articulated there was a little bit of a light bulb moment for me as well because then you can think well actually I do have value from career X whether I'm a chemist or a or somebody from the military because I've got these particular experiences of managing people for example because when we talking to kids about it we almost it almost feels like they they're a bit lost it feels as if we dumb it down a bit because we saying it's about problem solving and they're asking me do I need to learn Python do I need to learn this and those conversations are really important because yes they actually sometimes do and we don't want to just dilute it with maybe more important skills which are really hard to teach like the ones you just mentioned there about collaboration and the like it's it's it's a it's a tricky one and I always kind of um I struggled with the way we kind of pitch pitch the kind of softer skills. It's a really really interesting challenge. I was at a an event in Sydney um speaking on on um as part of a panel and one of the the points that really stuck with me was from a school principal in um in Sydney who uh manages a boy school and one of the things that he pointed out was that you you the IT industry and and many industries repeatedly say how important it is to uh to hire and develop people's teamwork, your collaboration skills and communication skills. Yet our um high school education is is uh measured or and young people measured on the impact of the individual marks that they can get. Yeah. By themselves and um you know Perhaps there are some exceptions here and there, but it did make me think a lot about, you know, how does a young person acquire those types of skills when high school isn't going to give it to you. But the one thing I would say, Dan, to to um young people who are interested in a career in IT is to just look for any kind of practical work experience that you can get. So I started my um working life as a um a checkout operator at Wworth's where I um after several years I moved into I was promoted into the hot chickens um area and and and so you know that experience wasn't necessarily you some of those transferable skills were were what I learned new customer service working to a deadline that was you know certainly teamwork communication all of those things am I cooking hot chickens in my current job unfortunately not not um but I you know potatoes perhaps in your hand but I you know it's it's getting those skills um and and actually learning it through applied through that lived experience is perhaps the most valuable and one thing we hear from partners and customers is that a lot of young people are even still coming out of university and still tricky to hire because they've got no practical work experience. um at all. So, you know, just even having like a part-time part-time job is better than nothing. So, I'm I'm this is a lived experience for me right now, Beth. My my son is heading into year 11 and so we're going through the process of deciding what you know what ostensibly might appear to a high school student as the decisions that will decide the rest of your life. You know, here are the the eight subjects you're going to choose that that determine your ATR, that determine your career and all that. And at the same time, we've just done his first resume cuz he's looking for jobs and you know going to get a job and it's really interesting to see it through the lens of someone of that age and their perceptions I say to him you know do you want to do be in IT like dad or do you want to do this and their pre-built perceptions even at that age of what it means to be in the IT industry oh you've got to be a coder you got to be a software developer oh you need to write code and I don't I don't want to sit in front of a computer all day you know or oh I want to be a doctor oh I want to be one of his friends wants to be a physiootherapist you know and he's like uh but means I got to, you know, deal with people and this that and the other and they're just they have this sort of boxed view of these things, right? Um but I couldn't agree more and the reason why we're getting his resume out to go and get a job at Wworth or Bunnings or Harris Farm wherever, you know, he kind of gets it out there to is just to learn how to talk to people, transact with people, deal with deal with a situation where actually it's not going to go your way. Sorry. You know, you're just going to have to deal with what it is. I think those are those resiliency skills. And that was the word I was trying to think of earlier. Resiliency is probably the greatest skill in particularly in the world we live in today regardless of the tech industry even it's just the world is a unfortunately a a challenging place to to thrive in you know in in in any place and so resiliency becomes your key to happiness almost in some ways and and do you think do you think that co has actually had an impact on that because when I'm speaking to young people at the minute you know my own kids and my partner's kids and things like that you know the expectations lots of people are now I think co's reset them and they're thinking more in terms of you know what I want to work for myself more I want to spend more time at home they're working the hybrid I've seen how mom or dad or uncle or auntie has been working from home spending more time with me I like that you know I I think it's resetting and that was the that was the lens that I put right at the beginning there around this employee experience I think there's two things one people one is people like uh our age might be thinking, well, I now want to reset work's expectations of me and my expectations of what I'm doing in work, which is a great conversation to have, but then also people coming into the workforce are are expecting differently. And we will in next episode, I think based on the conversations here, we will interview some interns in the next episode to see if our expectations and and thoughts here are the, you know, are similar to theirs. But I I do think that they've reset their expectations and and rightly. You know, one of my sons is uh uh working in a as a washing dishes in a local Italian restaurant. Um and uh they both do sport refereeing. So, this year has been a bit of an epiphany for me because rather than driving them to sport and driving them to work and they're getting paid to do basketball refereeing and hockey refereeing and I know and Tom's going to his um uh kind of restaurant that he's working at. So, it's it's different expectations that they having and I think they're getting in some of the experiences to take your point as well uh Beth from varied areas as well. So do you think do you think it's it is changing isn't it co's definitely changed people's expectations it's you know I think I think that's definitely true Dan and you we were talking about this in over the last few days around how co has changed the ways in which government work forces have have worked And perhaps historically um you know the tech industry has been an early adopter of people working remotely and working from home and and so I you know for me co really didn't change that much if anything um because everyone was working remotely. It was almost better for me because everyone was joining remote as opposed to me um joining remote from Adelaide where it was a group of people in Sydney um having a chat and and I felt a little bit kind of excluded from from some of that. So co for me was a great leveler. Um and the but the tech industry has been working remotely for years and years and years. And so what I think has changed um is that that way of working has been more widely adopted across sectors that were historically more risk adverse and less willing to change. And you it's challenged a lot of the expectations around um presenteeism and you know if you are seen in the office then people assume you're working versus being you know accountable for what you actually deliver for me I think that's that's also very empowering thing as an employee that I am trusted to deliver um my you against roles and my uh responsibilities and objectives and I'm you know it's not about how many hours I'm sitting in front of a laptop. Um, and young people are definitely looking at that and um, and I think you people in the current workforce and young people as well are going to be um, more able to dictate the terms of your their expectations and and employers will have to you if they want the best talent and if they want to retain the best talent then they will have to um, you manage their system. accordingly. And if you think about the future of the industries that we have here um in Australia but around the world and a lot of the wealthy companies now are knowledge based uh companies that rely on smart people you that is that is going to be the way that people um will expect to be working and I I've been watching even uh trials around the world where they're looking at 4 day weeks um and you know, the the the better work life balance that you get from being able to be flexible is is one thing, but then perhaps it will even move into more accommodations around um part-time work or 4 day weeks and and that's exciting, I think, for lots of parents. Um so, you guys both have uh much older children. So, my daughter's only seven and and I found um you working from home is so much better just to try and balance all the things that you need to accommodate as a parent and and perhaps moving towards these more flexible ways of working will also create opportunities for people who would have otherwise been excluded from uh a more rigid workplace which expected you to be there from you know 8 till 6 or something. I wonder Beth, it's a really good point and on the location thing you know obviously yes for you it was that opportunity to be more included because you're no longer kind of required to be in Sydney but you're still in a capital city and I think there's still a you know there's a I wonder if the question is is this message now reaching our regional areas outside of capital cities that they could be included and I I know that something you talked about when we spoke off offline before the the podcast around the um the digital pulse report from the ACS which talks a bit about some of these challenges of uh location proportionality you know where we bring these people in um I don't know if you've got any thoughts on that because I think that's also really an untapped opportunity is the people that aren't in the It is so true, Lee. And you know, I've had lots of interesting conversations with government agencies who are looking at this as an opportunity to locate some of their offices outside of some of our bigger cities. And again, that's the recognition that there needs to be physical loca physically located offices to to tap into regional talent pools. But, you know, you look at companies like Atlassian um who say, you know, work from anywhere. Literally, as long as you've got a computer and internet access, you can you can do your job. And there's lots I was having a conversation about this with some colleagues. Um, you know, has has co unlocked a lot of opportunities for people to move into regional towns and I know some of our colleagues have moved to places like Ely Beach and Byron Bay and um, uh, regional Western Australia. We've got people who um are located now in Darwin. Um you this is this is such a good opportunity for regional centers to uh to to promote their lifestyle and and it's as much not just the people like you say that that are choosing to move because suddenly I'm flexible enough and I want to make that you know sea change or or or whatever green change but I'm thinking more about actually young kids growing up in the bush who today see their future being really tied to the bush and the family and it you know, it's a it's a real world life experience for them is that it's hard for them to see beyond that. How do we get how does how does the tech industry get into the ears and into the minds of those kids so that they feel like, you know, hey, I could be a part of that. And I'm not suggesting we have the answer, but to me, I think that's one of those real opportunities. I agree. Um, you know, and the first minute we have a an office set up in the Hunter Valley, I'm I'm moving there. Of course, it's exactly where I want to work from. Um, oh, no, actually, I'll come down to you, Beth, in Adelaide. I think that's the best one. Exactly. Yeah, I think we might have just started a fight there, but yes, sorry. Go on. It is it is it is interesting, isn't it? There's going to be this balance between fluidity in in the workforce and also rigidity because we we caught up before this podcast and it was very clear from all of us that we've been meeting customers face to face recently and I think companies are going to be wrangling with this around employee experience, hybrid work. You know, we we all going to need some level of autonomy but a degree as well of rigidity because the best things happen when we all work together and we all come together and and co's helped us in so many ways by working remotely and in hybrid and giving us a great experience probably be well better for the families and things like that but also you know has had negative effects as well um but also the fact is we haven't been working with our colleagues as as much we haven't had as much um connections side water the cooler chats uh and and which develops a lot of innovation and and insight. You know, we'll be on a call and we talking about the podcast and then we'll jump off and we haven't talked about, you know, how things are going and where opportunities are and at lunch or anything like that. So, there's this balance and I think when we if we bring it back to skilling as well, you know, I think I think we're never going to answer the the well-being and employee experience questions, I suppose, and the questions that we've posed today, but people need to be thinking about those. But then when we start to go back down into thinking well what are the skills the the people you you were seeing Lee and and you were seeing Beth in in your customers and in conversations around Australia and globally. What are the skills then to kind of bring us all back together? What are the skills that people are kind of looking for most at the minute? So people listening to the podcast can go okay you know I know work's changing. I know I can work from anywhere. I know my expectations are changing but if I do have to get to the nitty-gritty. What what things should I be looking at, you know, tangibly? Um, what do you think, Lee? What are the kind of big trends for you? Um, so it's and it's not a copout answer, but it's maybe some think of a copout answer, but I I've just seen it time and time again that the most powerful skill anyone ever has in the room in a any situation, whether it be work, play, life, school, anything else, is the ability to communicate. And that I don't mean communicate as in talk and talk, you know, with all the best fancy words you've ever thought of. But communication, as you both know, is that kind of that art of it's a two-way thing. It's the art of listening and communicating. And I just see so much of the need for people that can listen, interpret, adapt, and then engage around a particular scenario. And yes, if they've got a particular product skill or they've got some experience in some industry or some, you know, work experience they've done that's taught how to do something XY Z. That that's proven that they've learned how to learn. I always say to my kids, actually, now you got me on this idea. You know, you go to school to learn stuff. You go to a university to learn a specialist, but that whole process is learning how to learn and grow. You then go into the real world and use that ability to learn to actually develop, you know, skills and capability. Um, and so, yeah, to me, it's just, you know, I if you can communicate to people, listen, act, and all those things I said, you can pretty much do anything. and and you know and everyone assumes they can communicate but actually when you see real communication in action and we've all seen it in various you know people we've seen it's it's a joy to behold somebody that can actually hold a room and a conversation and and bring everybody into that conversation not just be the sole voice you know all those things I know that's for me so so tangibility and I'll go to you in a second Beth but just to unpick that a little bit you know when we thinking about because I love that analogy but when we thinking about that for the people listening into the podcast today Okay. I suppose what they can do to evidence that if they're in whatever age they are, whatever career they're in, it's about being able to uh maybe publish articles on LinkedIn, maybe video uh a video themselves doing something, you know, showing that they can articulate a particular point. So when you're hiring, you see that and go, okay, Dan's done a presentation at wherever it's on YouTube or Beth's done a blog post about a particular device that's come out or work skilling in LinkedIn. And you can see that people are communicating. They've got a point of view. Is that would you say I'll give you that and then I'll let Beth talk. I when I'm hiring people dirty secret I don't actually read their resume very often. I mean I might look at it brief quickly. When I'm hiring someone I look up their name and I go look across a range of platforms. YouTube, LinkedIn typically because I'm looking at work people but other places. I'm not really interested in their social media plat profile. Of course that can be more important these days. But I want to go and see what do they talk about, how they communicate, how visible are they? Do they actively go out there and profer an opinion on things? That's what I look for. And and the resume is kind of a nice to have if it's great tip. Yeah. And for for you, Beth, what would you your thoughts be around this? Yeah. Look, I I I think it's really interesting to hear that perspectively and I agree with you to a large extent. But um as you're talking, I'm thinking gosh, how how would a young person compete when you know they've never had a platform to have a perspective or you know to demonstrate um you know or to write a big blog post about something. So for me I think it all comes down to attitude uh kind of overriding aptitude to a large extent and so an attitude towards um and a commitment towards continual growth and learning is perhaps the most important thing that um that I think would demonstrate some ability to be successful in the IT industry. But that that sort of ongoing commitment to self-growth and that concept of growth mindset I think is also an incredibly important how would they evidence that Beth? Yeah. So, so for me I think and if we were looking at this from a traineehship perspective Dan you know some of the things that I think we we look for is uh a an ability to extend beyond just academic studies. So, so somebody that perhaps has a sporting commitment and might have volunteered as a coach or been, you know, part of the the organizing committee in some capacity. So, an ability to kind of extend beyond um beyond academic studies is is terrific. Um certainly anyone with some practical work experience is really um highly valued as well because we know that they have had some opportunity to communicate or to you know practice communication skills, engage with customers and have that kind of customer service mentality I think would be um one way of being able to evidence um some practical skills that would be really relevant in a workplace. But then you know there is such a proliferation of free training um available to to people and somebody who has undertaken you know a a couple of extra courses or they've completed, you know, some uh some of the free training that you can get from EdX and Corsera and um you know, there's lots of LinkedIn training now that is free. So, somebody who's really kind of looked into the um the ways in which they can learn more about a particular skill or particular thing and they've undertaken some ongoing learning. It demonstrates a commitment to professional and personal growth and a commitment to to lifelong learning and a curiosity as well. Um, but we we've had lots of applicants who've been able to demonstrate um or problem solving and things like that. You know, they might have participated in Lego championships or um you we have a lot of young people who doing gaming um now which um you but and and they've extended that into you know arranging clubs and events and things like that. So you can You know, I think there's lots of opportunities for young people to push themselves beyond their academic studies. And it's not to say, you know, I remember year 12 as highly stressful year. And you the other thing I would say to to people perhaps the most important thing is to you you're going to be working for a really long time. And the number one thing to do in in my book is to follow your passion. You know, find what you like and worry about the job. Because in all likelihood, young people coming out of school and and young people kind of entering the IT, entering the workforce now, they're likely to change jobs, you know, four or five times um at least. And there are so many things that you will learn along the way and so many opportunities to reinvent yourself. And this narrative around uh your final years of high school being able to dictate the rest of your life I think you're rubbish. You know, we've had lots and lots of young people through our traineeship program who frankly didn't even finish year 12 and and there's lots of reasons why that was the case. But um you life is going to be a continual journey of learning and if you can commit yourself to learning and be if you're motivated by personal growth, I think you know those are the types of people that we can accommodate. And that's some great examples cuz I think those ones are the tricky ones. to actually articulate. I will be devil's advocate with my kind of tip I suppose because I do agree with both of you and you know they're great answers but you know if you if people are looking for tangible things as well not that any of these aren't tangible because they are important but I I think there is an element of getting fundamental stuff done right as well. So if people are looking for real courses and things to do um which they might want to want to showcase you know looking at things like general capabilities on security and and cloud generally and and really thinking about some of those technologies that are kind of at the forefront. You know what I told um when I was speaking to a lot of IT teams, I spoke to 50 people the other day in one of the local like education authorities and um they were asking about some of the trends and I said, "Well, read the earnings reports of the big tech sector. If they're interested in technology, they should know where Google, Apple, Microsoft are making their money because then they can see where the trends are. You know, the earnings reports are really really clear. They they're very direct about where different companies are going and you can then put your bet if you're betting your career in technology. You can look at the the companies and go, well, okay, company X is betting on clouds, company B is betting on hardware, you know, and if you're interested in that, you can go this way. So, but I do think there's a fundamental layer like even our marketing executives in Microsoft need to do their Azure fundamentals, Microsoft 365 fundamentals, Dynamics fundamentals, Power platform fundamentals. So you you I'm going to get product specific but you know security cloud fundamentals um uh would be kind of the key pick for me. Maybe data AI fundamentals uh just so people have got a a base knowledge of some of those topics that are happening. So that would be my kind of tip as well. But I love your answers everybody. And tomorrow um we'll be doing another episode but it will it'll be released two weeks time. Sorry I I don't know what if I said tomorrow. Tomorrow is when we be recording it. But for next week, um, we'll be interviewing some interns, uh, to actually see if they are lived experiences correlate to what our thoughts are on on on this episode today. So, any closing remarks, uh, Lee or Beth, before we close the episode down? Oh, look, just a a shameless plug, Dan, actually. And just to your point around, you know, some of those fundamental skills, Microsoft actually has a bunch of really cool new and totally free divorces coming up in August. So, I've been waiting for the US to determine exactly which date, but I think um for anyone out there interested in a range of different IT and professional roles, these courses are going to be fantastic um to put on a CV and start from even kind of office basics and productivity basics. And so, um you this is this has been a long time coming and I think anyone out there who's looking to demonstrate uh some proficiency in some of the more basic skills and also look into um further education in these areas. I think you will have a lot to offer in that space in just a couple of weeks time. So fantastic watch this space. Yeah, we'll share the links and also some of the reports as well that you mentioned. I know there's the ACS report. There was a report from the tech council. There's a report from hybrid work that we've done making hybrid work work. So we put all of those in the show. notes as well. But thanks everybody for your time today and and we've skied on a lot of information there and thank you for bringing you uh lenses to uh such an important topic and let's keep the skilling conversation going. Awesome. Good to see you both. Thank you. Bye.

In this episode, Beth is in the studio and joined by Lynn McDonald, Microsoft Azure Space Lead, Asia Pacific. Shownotes: Azure Space achieves lift-off in Australia – Microsoft Australia News Centre Microsoft for Australian Space Startups | Microsoft Australia ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 6 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Hello everyone. My name is Beth Warl and you are joining us here today on the AI in education podcast. I am actually by myself today in that I don't have either Lee or Dan with me, so anything could happen, which is exciting and terrifying in equal measure. Um, usually we would reflect a little bit on what we had done over the weekend. and or over the last week. And um I must say now that I have a new puppy, I haven't had a very exciting life these last few weeks, but I did go and enjoy Top Gun. This is a movie that I wouldn't have necessarily thought I would enjoy, but I loved it so much that I want to go again and see it as soon as I possibly can. I am very, very excited to say that we are joined by our very own Top Gun today. Today, Lynn McDonald. Hi, Lynn. Thanks for joining us on the podcast. Hi, Beth. Thanks for having me. Um, I'm not a Top Gun, but I did see it twice in the same week. So, no judgment here. No judgment. I I must admit I had um I had watched the original just to remind me of um you know, the extensive narrative. Um but obviously in the in the time that the original was filmed and this latest version, you two things. the technology and the simulated experiences change but and yet Tom Cruz's face remains the same in terms of still looking about that is the magic of Hollywood is um but Lynn you um are the head of Azure space for Microsoft here in Australia um now we're going to get on and talk a little bit about what Azure space means in a minute but you yourself had a really interesting experience and career in the US military. So, I'd love to talk to you a little bit about that. But before we do, tell me Top Gun. You saw it twice in one week. How accurate was it to the experience that you had in the military, albeit in a completely different field? Did you Did you Were you drawn into the story? What did you think of the movie? You obviously liked it if you saw it twice. I did. I I mean, the flying scenes were absolutely incredible. It was So, the second time I stayed And I watched the um I watched through to the very last uh credit that rolled onto the screen. And um there was an extensive um engagement with uh with the Navy, with their public affairs, with their operators, uh with their fighter weapons school. Um so I was like, "Okay, yeah, they did their homework." Um some of the flying scenes were pretty um um well, they're just amazing and fun to watch. watch, but uh some of the um what they portrayed in the flying scenes, I was like, "Okay, they definitely um were spot on with uh the advising and um their interest in in capturing the reality of um the, you know, the operational environment." Uh so, um Oh, yeah. Um I could have sat through and watched it back to back the first time I saw it, but it's certainly made me, you're right, so much time has passed. Um, from the first uh to the, you know, Top Gun Maverick, Tom Cruz did manage to hold it together. Yeah. Way better than we have in a year. Frankly, it still looks the same. While I feel like I was, you know, 30 years older from when I first saw it, for sure. Uh, but, uh, it definitely made me quite nostalgic for, uh, my time in the military. I was in the Air Force, the US Air Force. Um, so, you know, a bit around the flying environment. Um, but I spent the majority of my time uh in space and satellite uh operations uh while I was in the Air Force for 23 years. But, uh, yeah, it was a wonderful career, amazing experiences, incredible responsibility, absolutely loved what I was doing uh with uh defense, space and satellite operations, space launch. Um I I really spent the majority of my career across the the space mission areas. Um but Top Gun absolutely wonderful, wonderful experiences and memories uh from my time in the Air Force. Um and you know, I'm now super happy to be a part of the Microsoft team. Uh every once in a while I do get a little nostalgic uh Top Gun, you know, I don't know, maybe there were some tears flowing here and there, possibly nostalgia, possibly the goofiness of some of the scenes. Um but yeah. Oh, that's amazing. So, Lynn, tell me um how did you end up in the military in the first place? Was that a calling that you had um you when you embarked on your career or did it happen almost by accident? Um possibly. possibly a bit by accident. I mean, I was in I grew up in California and uh you know, the schools there, the high schools did a pretty good job of keeping recruiters out of the schools. It's pretty liberal state and there wasn't uh at least where I grew up, there wasn't a a militant military presence. Uh I didn't have family in the military. My dad served in the army for four years during the Korean um during the on more, but he went to Korea. Um, but it really wasn't, you know, a part of the family. I didn't have a lot of exposure to it. Um, I did have a boyfriend in college who got into some financial trouble and instead of declaring bankruptcy went off to join the army. Uh, at least that's how my college brain recalls the scenario. So, he joined the army and drove tanks. And this was, you know, back pre- email days. Um, but I would get these letters about what he was doing, the missions, um, all of the camaraderie, the people he was meeting, um, all of the responsibility he was given. And I was looking forward to the letters to hear about what he was doing in the army more than I was looking forward to actually hearing from him. Typical college boyfriend experiences. Right. I I could not wait to hear what he was doing and it just sounded like such an amazing experience and uh you know I was studying business in university. Um the job market was a bit down. There wasn't anything that really drew me in um in the you know in industry. Um but I was really getting wrapped into these stories of um military the military experience. And so I went and spoke with a recruiter. Uh and uh I you know I think the Navy had been calling you know the recruiters call the the um call the homes and you know get in touch um when they you know know that you're getting to the age of considering and I think I had gotten calls from the Army recruiter. I'd gotten calls from the Navy recruiter. You know maybe if I would have known about Tom Gunn I would have called the Navy recruiter back but um uh I knew I probably wasn't a Marine. Uh and uh as you know, incredibly impressive bunch there. Um but, uh I thought, well, why isn't the Air Force calling me? So, I went and got in touch with an Air Force recruiter and uh I've got to give it to the recruiter. Um you know, they can be a bit, oh, right, sign the dotted line. Um but uh he really spent some time with me and and talked through like what do you want to do and and honestly at the time I didn't know what I wanted to do. I knew I just wanted to be a part of um this military experience and was super interested in the air becoming increasingly interested in the air force u with what I was finding out. And so I told him I'm going to go to I'm going to go to university uh or finish university and I'm going to join the air force. And uh you know he kind of talked me through the whole thing and uh and he said look I think you should look at um you know taking the path of the the officer training. And so he put me in touch with uh it's called reserve officer training corps that they have in many of the universities in the US. He put and so he put me in touch with the university's ROC um officer training program and uh as they say the rest is a bit of history. Well it's such an interesting story and I I do wonder I've spent a little bit of time recently with our defense team and also with the a team um in the US who are responsible for um reskilling and supporting military veterans into technology roles. So as I've started spending a lot more time with ADF um uh veterans and it is such an intriguing area to to have worked in. You can certainly see some of the qualities and experiences that you come out of that um industry with very very compelling um kind of experience. But tell me What was it that kind of changed your what what was what was the move from your military career into a career now with Microsoft? How did how did that happen? So I, you know, as I mentioned, I um was in the US Air Force for 23 years. I um had gotten to the rank of colonel. Had some amazing experiences leading up to that point. um oper in operations in command. I I really valued the command positions um and uh in command you're leading uh organizations that um where you have very specific responsibilities for the organization as a commander and and the people in the unit. Uh and I really treasured those experiences um and gained, you know, so much um so many valuable lessons learned in those um having those responsibilities as a commander. Uh um you know, but I I got to a point where you know, you you make these massive decisions over career and you know, where you want things to go and you look at things professionally and personally. And I really I I spent two years working through the decision to to retire um because I absolutely loved what I was doing. Um but I really had to evaluate where um I wanted to take some things in in my life and how I wanted to balance things again you know professionally and personally. I was also really interested to explore what was in industry and and look at you know the path beyond the military. So um you know after two years of of thinking through this you know you know when you know uh and in all those big life decisions. Uh you you know we all work through them in in different ways. Um but ultimately you know when you know and it it got really clear. I was like yep this is the time. And um you know I absolutely love um being a part of the space industry um you know in defense and now in um commercial industry. So I knew that I wanted to continue on um being a part of the the space. industry and contributing to this amazing uh community of um nerdy space uh experts uh and all the the different skills and personalities that come together in this really awesome industry. Um so I was just kind of you know exploring I knew it was time to move from um from the military and I was thinking about the next steps and um just kind of chewing on how I wanted to contribute what was important in terms of values and um you know my priorities for what I wanted to kind of pursue next. So I spent some time really kind of thinking through and evaluating that. Um meanwhile uh a very good friend of mine who is in the Australian Air Force uh said, "Hey um do you know Pam Melroy?" And I said, "Well, she's an astronaut. I don't know her. I'd love to know her." Uh He said, "I think you know I know her really well. I'm going to introduce you. I think I think you should you two should meet." She was really instrumental in the Australian space industry. Um I had done a bit of independent contracting consulting work um as I um was leaving the military. And in that consulting work, I was uh uh supporting a business that wanted to um start in the space industry, start a branch of their business in the space industry. in Australia. So it kind of evolved out of that and this discussion he said you know I think you should you should meet Pam Melroy. She was really instrumental instrumental in the Australian space and she was like gosh I'd love to meet with her. So I was connected to um to Pam uh she's in Washington got together for coffee and in that discussion um you know here's to the you know the value of networks. Um you know I've kind of learned over and over my the the value of of networks and and showing up as a as a good network um if you will and being a good good uh supporter of of networks for others. Um but uh I showed up to the um coffee meeting with with Pam and had a really interesting discussion about the industry, you know, different mission areas and uh she said, "Hey, give me, you know, send me a resume. And at that time, you know, I was just departed the the military and I had a glossy version of my resume in my purse at all times. Nice. So, I said, "Yeah, sure." Right. Always be prepared. Um, and so I, you know, whipped this uh resume out of my purse and she's like, "Okay, that's uh send it to me electronically." I was like, "Okay." So, uh, you know, uh, Yeah. So she was um had worked with our CTO uh who stood up the Azure space business in Microsoft. Uh she had worked with him in a previous role in DARPA and so you know he was building out the team and um I was connected to him and that's um where that took place and it was just you know when she said Microsoft I was like wow Microsoft that had not crossed my mind. Uh just hadn't crossed my mind because I was so focused on kind of you know defense contract roles um kind of standard roles that you know I was um familiar with from being in the military and but I was super intrigued by the Microsoft opportunity and then when I heard Microsoft was um building out new business in in space um one it completely made sense to me immediately when you think about it in terms of what Microsoft does in the way of compute and connectivity and big data. I just thought, "Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense." And holy smokes, can I be a part of this? Uh so, um yeah, so you know, through this, you know, this connection, uh through a good friend and and his network, it it opened up this completely new opportunity. It opened this door that I never would have considered. Uh and so that is what led me into Microsoft and um you know as I as I started to research the company um when I discovered this this opportunity, I was just like immediately and increasingly completely jing with the values of the company and I dug into um all sorts of course, you know, correspondents online and articles from Satia and just got a sense started getting a sense of the culture of the company. Um, you know, prior to getting set up with interviews and I just thought, "Oh, wow. This, you know, super impressed with um what I was learning about the culture and values of Microsoft." And um, you know, lo and behold, it's all true. Yeah. And it's such an important element of um of being satisfied and fulfilled. And you know, I wonder if it's especially so for people coming out of the military because that sense of purpose is is so ingrained from a military experience that you really want to I can imagine want to align yourself to an organization that has similar um values. So Lynn um can you tell me a little bit about Azure space and and is it as um has has been suggested in the past sort of irrelevant in that we've got so many PL problems on planet Earth. What the heck are we doing in space anyway? Or or do you see it very valid and relevant to solving some of those problems? Let's see. I can I'll start with your the second part of the the question first and then go back to what we're doing in Azure space. It is absolutely relevant. Space technology is absolutely relevant to what we're doing right here on Earth. Um there's so many different applications of space technology. We use space every day whether we realize it or not. From some of the more obvious things like GPS in my phone that helps me get anywhere anywhere these days. Um feel like I can't even walk up the street without having you know my uh maps app on. But uh to some of the more, you know, critical applications of space technology in the way of communication and applications of spaceorn data, of satellite imagery and being able to get uh you know, not only a broad uh geographic view for whatever business or operational use case uh you know, so applying space technology to applications right here on Earth is it's something that we we already do and may not even realize. But it's also incredibly essential whether it's um spacebor data, geospatial satellite imagery to make determinations about environmental decisions, sustainability decisions, business decisions, um and being able to make that at large scale and and make that that rapid um those rapid decisions. So I mean it's it's very much space technology is very applicable to right right here right now right on Earth. I know you know um there's a lot of discussion about um space exploration and um going back to the moon and going to Mars and that is all also um incredibly important um exploration and research and um you know expanding our our knowledge of of space and human um you know almost compatibility or or or looking beyond I know that Elon Musk is obviously looking for another planet I think is is that is he coming up with a plan B or is it more just setting a really ambitious goal to aim for just as the moon was ambitious all that all those many years ago? Well, I don't know really what Elon Musk is thinking and if I did um that would that would be pretty cool. But I think that um I think it's a really ambitious goal and I think that you know again it it really pushes the the limits uh to um help us think about our place in in space. Um and right you know I think the thing that I want to point out in in this is there there has been and there will continue to be many many advancements in technology in research across a number of different areas uh that will help us here on earth today and into the future. I mean there's medical exploration and discoveries that are taking place focused on uh how humans thrive and survive in space and that is affecting us you know our knowledge of we live and and thrive here on Earth today. I'll just take a quick example. There's a professor at an Australian university here that's doing uh quite a bit of work on uh researching cancer and how cancer reacts in space in zero gravity and um you know just very short on his his research um but is discovering that um you know cancer reaction to zero cancer cells reaction to zero gravity is that they begin to degrade very rapidly, dissipate and degrade very rapidly. So, we've seen this over time, just different technology advancements and research that can benefit here on Earth. Yeah, it's such an incredible area and and it's it's almost as if some of these things almost have an accidental benefit as well um to to advancing some of these some of the biggest challenges we face. And, you know, we spoke last week about um some of the sustainability things that Microsoft is doing at a global level and other companies as well. But um I do wonder if space and some of the work that you're doing in in the technology space space um will have a big impact on some of the on tackling some of the world's biggest environmental um challenges as well. Just purely from the perspective of having a holistic image, a holistic perspective on what's happening on the planet. Yeah, absolutely. Again, whether it's from um a spaceborn data perspective, uh using earth observation, geospatial data, um to understand the environment better and to watch change over time, uh whether it's, you know, degraded environments and understanding, um you know, how that's taking place that we can also look at it from an analytical perspective and understand where things may be headed. Um, you know, we've got incredibly powerful um data and AI capabilities that we can use to um take this data and under you know do predictive analytics whether it's from a sustainability environmental perspective or other you know business application um you know we are from an Azure space perspective uh developing uh technology around um four functional areas which are global connectivity geospatial analytics, Azure and space which is how do we take this incredible compute and advanced analytics capabilities out to onorbit platforms and then emulation and synthetics. Um this is how do we take uh we've got incredibly powerful gaming technology at Microsoft and emulation capabilities uh and we are um taking that and the ability to create synthetic data and bringing that together uh to create almost um a kind of a digital twin uh from a space perspective. Incredible. Um god. Yeah. Experience almost like a like through augmented reality as well. Is that is that or is it more from the data perspective? Yeah. So uh you know more from a a a data perspective. Uh we're taking payload satellite payload data in real time and creating it uh into an atscale emulation environment um so that you can uh almost envision an entire satellite constellation um and be able to apply analytics in that environment at scale. Um but you can absolutely apply augmented reality uh to to these um to these scenarios. as well. So, it really kind of So, I may end up on the moon by the sound of it. Well, one way or another, Lynn, I can see myself on the moon. It may not be real. Well, we've got some really neat uh use cases underway that are taking place on the International Space Station. Yeah. So, we uh have been working in partnership with HP and with NASA to run a number of uh use cases with Azure loaded on HP's uh spaceborn computer and we've been running some analytics uh advanced analytics use cases um for example we recently just did a use case around using computer vision with uh astronaut gloves and so what used to happen is astronauts would take hundreds of pictures of of their of their gloves which are an essential part of their their equipment and they'd send this information back to Earth and then it would get analyzed um by people to understand okay do we have wear you know you know too much wear on the glove is there a potential you know to um you know for the integrity of the glove to be compromised um all of that takes time you've got incredibly slow data rates you know going from the international space station back to Earth. Um, we looked at how can we take a picture of the glove, take computer vision, run models to detect what, you know, what what a, you know, I guess a healthy glove looks like, where what wear, um, is excessive, what's, you know, it would just it it's it's allowed us to rapidly characterize um, astronauts equipment and they can um, get a sense of where there might be issues in nearer real time and do that on board the the ISS. Um, so I think it's a really interesting example of using uh compute and using advanced analytics to push decisions out to to the edge. I mean, it's what we currently do from a terrestrial perspective. Uh, when you think about Azure edge capabilities and taking compute and analytics to the terrestrial edge. Now we're taking that out to uh to the ultimate edge and taking that out to space. I mean really this is about taking connectivity, compute and uh data and AI to to wherever it's needed and now including space and it's empowering the people for whom these decisions are going to be the most significant as well. So the astronauts can can be in control of their own equipment with information like that. which um I can imagine that use case is just one of probably millions that could be used to to do that. That's incredible, Lynn. It's, you know, I'm listening and feeling mildly annoyed because I'm sure you have the coolest job at Microsoft. Um and uh and I know that you've been building up a team of incredible talented people in the country. But I guess where we got connected was all the way um probably about a year ago and and we were talking about some of the challenges that you were finding in building your team of Top Gun um Azure space people here in Australia in particular in South Australia which is where I am based but um maybe you could just reflect quickly about some of the challenges you found in in building your team because I know you're you're looking at it from a couple of different angles uh diversity being one of them as well. Yeah, absolutely. So I uh arrived in Australia let's see February of last year uh and uh you know with the aim to build out the business here, build the team, build the strategy uh really you know bring Azure space um to Australia and and yeah bring it to life. And uh you know first things first I um I think I wrote the strategy on the plane ride over and in quarantine in the Sydney hotel. Um I had already been thinking I already been watching the industry here and and um engaged uh a bit from the US, but that that proved challenging with time zones and yeah and just really kind of the the opportunity and the amount of work there was to do. So um I was fortunate enough to be able to move here uh last year and um that's a bit of a story in it in its own. Maybe a separate podcast another time when that one. It was the Vegemite, wasn't it? It was the Veimite. The Veimite Jeremy here. Absolutely. Um tolerable with lots of butter. Uh so um yeah, so arrived here in February, you know, I had uh set set the strategy um had been watching the industry for quite some time. Uh knew what, you know, we were doing from a a technology engineering perspective in Azure space and um where I saw opportunities to partner uh and um and help enable the Australian um space community here. Uh but you know, first things first, I was to build out the team and uh so you know, incredible talent in in the industry here. Uh it's also a growing uh the Australian space industry is also a growing industry and continuing to evolve and it's it's rapidly evolving and it's been amazing to watch that rapid evolution. And like I said, there is absolutely incredible talent here in in the industry. And so I went out to build the team and you know, I saw right from the start it was, you know, incredibly competitive. It it was I mean, the pool is expanding, but it it was it was a pretty small um talent pool, right? U if if you're looking for specific experiences And I I really kept a broad perspective on um skill sets and experience and and what a person could potentially bring to to our team. Um but uh you know it it was a you know and as the industry is growing here of course many people are looking for for talent. So um it it was a bit competitive. Um but then I started looking at uh um diverse candidates and ensuring that I was looking at um you know all options for people to bring um talents and expertise uh into the picture as I was hiring the team and you know as I was looking for uh diverse candidates uh the the pool got small real fast um and you know I spent quite a bit of time looking across the nation working with our talent acquisition team And uh like I said, it just the pool got small fast and that really made an impression on on me um as I was hiring for the team and and kind of made that discovery. Uh you know, one I had already determined that um we needed to be a part of the growth of the industry. Yeah. And uh and part of that was the talent pool and and So uh you know I was thinking through how do we how do we support the growth of this industry and in supporting the growth of the industry including talent um how do we help build diversity um in this um in this growing industry. So that was you know really kind of the the first impression that I got. Um and I know we had a conversation I shared that observation with you and we just kind of continued to evolve that that discussion and uh um I know you could probably take the the rest of this discussion. Um I you and I had really kind of this shared passion about creating opportunities um and pathways for um you know for all people and including diverse talent into IT into the space industry. Um and so that you know conversation just really kind of evolved from there. Well, and it's um you know, I think it was the perfect time as well because we were looking at things that we might do to invest um in in this particular challenge and um uh spoiler alert I guess in terms of what we've done. Um so we we've recently had the opportunity to work with modus um and adeco to bring their um modus tech academy model to Australia which is like a super quick um skilling program that supports people to um either recent graduates or people who are returning to work or looking to pivot from another industry. Um so it supports them to get job ready skills in in new um job specific careers. So we looked at data analytics and we looked at creating a program specifically for women. Um and it's you know as um as a as we had the opportunity to focus here in South Australia, which is where the the Australian Space Agency was based. I I felt very passionate about creating opportunities for all South Australians to get access to this new industry of space. Um, and it isn't just necessarily the quintessential um sort of uh nerds um which I think was the word that you use, Lynn. Um you know, it's it's going to take lots of people from lots of different kinds of backgrounds to make the industry um successful and we know that in workforces that better reflect the societies in which they operate um are actually more successful anyway. So um yeah I think this is going to be a bit of an evolving um project in where we continue to work with the universities here in South Australia but also nationally and then look at the ways in which we can um connect women to the opportunities in the space um in the space industry, but I know that you've also done some really great and fantastic work in just connecting with women in the IT industry here in South Australia. Um, and I want to thank you and recognize you for all that work that you've done in terms of speaking to young women and girls in schools and speaking to women in the IT industry, but also that um incredible virtual mentoring session we did with the Office for Women. Um I I know that um it's a bit of a a a a side um well it's perhaps it's not a side hustle because it's part and parcel of your job but it may it's a it's a lot of work that you're you're doing to address this and you're doing an incredible job. Oh ditto Beth um I mean tech the tech start program uh you you brought that to life. You took our our conversation and identifying where there was a need and um and really just brought it to life with the the partners. And it's it's already been, you know, it takes it it takes every um you know, an issue isn't solved in a single moment. It it takes many moments of of um you know, kind of chipping away, if you will. And I know you and I talked about where do where do we start, right? If we're going to help with the Yeah. If we're going to help with the, you know, building out diversity in the industry and I know we're looking at the space industry and and it more broadly like where do you start because there's a whole pipeline from early years education to university to career and making sure that there's the right support network um for diverse people in their career because there are retention considerations there are you know making sure that people are in um supported for um their performance in terms of promotions. There are career changes. I mean there's a whole pipeline. I know you and I talked about where do we start? Uh and um you know we wanted to make we wanted to make an immediate impact and I think that was you know that was one area that was that we landed on with the tech start program which was how can we do one thing uh that will have the potential for immediate impact in the industry and uh and so I think that that's where we got with with Techart and and it's what it is you know we've we're creating yeah really you know practical microcredentiing um certifications in in areas that are of need in the space industry and um you know wrapping that with u industry mentoring networking with our partners from IT consulting and the space industry and it you know it creates that um you know the microsklling the exposure to the industry the opportunity to network um it's it's creating that that pathway and and the opportunity um I mean there's so much value even in creating a professional industry network uh so you know know off and running with the the tech start program. I know it'll it will evolve over time, but I think you know we had a tremendous response with what was it like over 200 women who applied to the first cohort. Yeah. Yeah. And um just had the first Yeah. first graduation and we we have our next cohort starting again in July. So it'll be another opportunity to to kind of test what we're doing. But Maybe if I could close out. I know that you missed the graduation event. Um and uh I I was um uh so disappointed that you couldn't see, you know, some of the women get up and talk about their experience, but there was one particular woman who um you know is so accomplished and intelligent and has just needed a little bit of confidence and reconnection with women in a professional setting. So she took some time off to have her children. And um and she told me afterwards actually that she was also um uh she also had um a battle with breast cancer during that time as well. And so she wrote a note to say that the Tech Start program has given her a third chance at life after she's, you know, had her career, had her children, recovered from breast cancer, and now she's she's landed an internship with um with one of our partners here. in Australia. And you know, I think one of the things that we find I personally think with skilling programs is that sometimes it's just so complex and difficult to know where to start that people don't start. I think you've got to start by starting and you know our program is only small at this stage but we we've started as you know by starting and we're learning as we go. Um so you know it's been such an exciting project to work with you um uh and yes to to bolder things. things for next financial year. But um if I can just close with a very controversial question and I'm I'm sure it's it's on the minds of everyone um thinking um about it. In fact, I have two questions. So I want to know a little bit more about what you think of Vegomite and then the other question is will I ever get to meet an alien in my lifetime? Is there intelligent life out there or even unintelligent life? I'm happy to I'm happy to meet that too. Oh, which is the harder question? Um, I love that. That's So, let's see. Um, like I said initially, anything can be solved with a lot of butter. Um, including Vegemite. So, um, my, uh, stepdaughter introduced me to, um, the the art of Vegemite on toast, and I noted that she had used nearly half a stick of butter. And and there was much discussion over um really veomite is it or is it just butter with a tiny bit of a speck of this salty whatever it is. Goodness, I think is the word you need. Goodness. It's certainly an acquired taste and I prefer it with lots of butter. All right. Well, I'm glad we've settled that one. Now, will I get to meet an alien then? Well, um I think you'll have to ask Elon Musk. that question also. Um, no, just kidding. Um, I I don't know. Um, I here's how I I view it. The I mean, you know, I think many of us have probably looked up at the the sky at night and just wondered and with awe and amazement and almost just in a way that's hard to process. And u I've I've actually never gazed up at the night sky so much as I have in in my time in Australia because if if you haven't viewed if you haven't viewed the night sky from the southern hemisphere from Australia just like it's I it blew my mind the first time I saw it. I was out here for work in Alice Springs about um 15 years ago and uh the team I was with pulled over in the middle of well I mean Alice Springs is the middle of nowhere but pulled over in the middle of nowhere at night and I got out and I they said look at the sky and I was complet completely blown away, speechless. And so I routinely go out like Milky Way gazing here. But um you know, when you think about we're we are one speck in this massive one speck h hurtling around one star, you know, of how many I don't even know if it's like trillions or gazillions or whatever the it is, but you know, we are one of so many in a mass and expanding universe. It's hard for me to imagine that we are the only um intelligent or potentially unintelligent life forms in this amazing universe. So um you know, wouldn't it be cool if if we could have that contact someday? But uh it's it's it's hard for me to think that we're the only uh the only ones in this universe that are um living our best lives. Yeah. Well, I 100% agree and look, we hold out hope that um you know, perhaps in 10 years we'll be talking about how um George Lucas had done such a lot of research to put together Star Wars just as we just as we uh have marveled at the research for Top Gun. Um and it may be that they are already here. So on that bombshell, um Lynn, it's just been so lovely to have the chance and the luxury of this time with you and I hope you enjoyed the conversation. I hope the listeners have enjoyed the conversation as well. We're super duper lucky to have Lynn in Australia, let alone part of our Microsoft family. Um, and she hasn't left um the Vegemite hasn't driven her away just yet. So, we're hoping and we will continue to watch with awe and wonder as you um grow your Azure space team and do this incredible work. Thank you, Lynn. Thanks, Beth. I I really treasure the time that I get to work with and and um discuss all these really interesting opportunities that we have here with you. So, thanks for this opportunity and um as always, it's a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you. Bye, everyone.

In this episode, Beth and Lee talk to Microsoft's Dave Andrews, Procurement Lead, about the issues around sustainability in the area of supply chains and procurement. From responsible air travel to diversity and inclusion in suppliers, we cover a lot! Some useful links: Procurement | Microsoft Responsible Sourcing Recent article from Dave Andrews: From modern slavery to sustainability: A deep dive into responsible procurement – Microsoft Australia News Centre Diverse business communities that Microsoft Australia works with include: Supply Nation WEConnect International Social Traders GlobalSocial impact reporting and certifications: B Corp UN Global Compact ________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT For this episode of The AI in Education Podcast Series: 5 Episode: 5 This transcript was auto-generated. If you spot any important errors, do feel free to email the podcast hosts for corrections. Hi and welcome back to the uh increasingly and again Beth we really got to think about changing the name the AI and education podcast that talks about almost everything other than AI and education. Uh Beth, how are you? I'm well thank you Lee. How are you? Did you enjoy a long weekend just now? I did. Yes, I did. Although Usually these things go by so quickly. And I remember my daughter said to me on I think it was on Saturday afternoon. She said, "Dad, it feels like Friday today." And I said, "Well, that's good because you know, actually we got this extra time." And I said, "But in my head, it feels like it's sun Monday evening, 9:00, and everything's about to come smack smacking me back in the face, but it's great to have the weekend off. Did you do anything fun with your weekend?" Oh, well, um, in some cases, yes. Although it always sounds more fun before you have the actual experience. So, we got a a puppy um on Friday. So this little kavoodle which um the kids have been looking forward to for months turned up and um and he was the the center of attention for you know an hour um before the novelty wore off and kids were bitten and messes were made on the floor. Yes. We've been trying to keep up with him ever since. So uh it's it's going to be a wild ride I think for the next um couple couple of weeks and then hopefully he'll settle down. But no, he's he's good fun. Um and uh and it should be it should be a a great experience um once I'm over the the sleepless nights. And it's it's like having a baby again. It is. It is. Yeah. We we we grabbed what we we grabbed we got a puppy during co uh who's now falling asleep next to me. He's 18 months old, so he's no longer a puppy anymore. But yes, that whole early stage, nobody talks about that. They talk about the magic of puppies, but early age puppies. We had to sleep on the floor next to him and take him out for a we every 20 minutes. Thankfully now we've got a dog that is pretty well house trained and I can tell you at that point it is a wonderfully like it's the best thing ever. Um except for the fact he he does take up the bed space but um but no loving having a puppy. Oh yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you know the other problem I have with a long weekend is you never leave me alone in front of my computer too long and if I can open up eBay or Amazon or anything like that because I tend to make rash purchases and I started down a journey of going a bit nostalgic. In fact, I'm going to show you this on the camera. Apologies for people who are not here. I went out and bought this thing. Now, this is a Nomad jukebox. See, it's a circa 1999 MP3 player because I started having one of those nostalgia moments like, "Oh, I remember the tech I used to use." And I've now acquired through eBay purchases three or four of these ancient MP3 players that will be of no use to me whatsoever. I don't know what I'm going to do with them. So, long weekends probably not, but I've got it just in case. This one was sealed. brand new from like 1999. It was actually still had. So yeah, it's great that sex, you know, is the Walkman making a a comeback anytime soon. Well, this is an interesting link because we're going to we're talking about things that have lasted a long time. We're talking about sustainability and we had this whole conversation last podcast about sustainability. Uh but Beth, I think today you've brought along a really interesting gu. Oh, by the way, for folks know Dan today, Dan couldn't make it so you just got Beth and I and our guest. But Beth, I'll let you introduce our guest today. Yeah, thank you. So, uh, we are joined today by a wonderful Microsoft colleague, Dave Andrews. Dave is, um, a partner of both of ours, I think, across lots of different projects. And, um, having worked with people in this area before, I think we're really blessed to have someone with Dave's passion and experience um, and sense of humor in regard to the work that he does. So, hi Dave. Thanks for joining us. Hey Beth. Hey Lee. Thanks for the invite. Ah, it's great to see you. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do at Microsoft? Yeah, sure Beth. Um, well, my my role at Microsoft is uh the procurement lead for Australia and New Zealand and we've got an outstanding group of procurement professionals that work at Microsoft. We've got over 260 professionals, but lucky for me, I'm the single representative across the Australian and New Zealand markets. And and my job essentially is to to to be the account lead or the director of procurement looking after um all of the needs of our business and that spans every business group that lands in our country from our data center team to our quantum team uh to our marketing and operations team philanthropies team and even sometimes when Lee gets a bit curious about old technologies you might have a a chat to me about that as well um but I I think the the important part for me I'm lucky to represent a lot of our core services Um, and I'm lucky to to represent this cap company and have an opportunity to to follow a lot of my passions, one of which is procurement, but also inclusive procurement and and how we apply technology moving forward. So that's awesome, Dave. And yes, now I know I'll go to you to buy old stuff. You can get me better prices. Um, but like so you say procurement a lot there and I I mean I don't know what the word means, but kind of in real terms that means that whenever Microsoft buys something for us to use, it goes through you and your team. Is that kind of how it In reality, it works. I think uh in the olden days, Lee, yes, when when your uh MP3 player was new, that is probably how um procurement was looked at. But I think as we have evolved, procurement has really had to look at itself in a different way. Um we I often use the analogy that sometimes the most powerful thing a procurement professional uh can do is know when to get out of the room. Um and the the feeling that we know when to get out is because we have coached, educ educated and mentored the business on how to do procurement well. Um we we sometimes forget that people procure things every single day. Um what we're really here to do is empower Microsoft employees to procure things in a compliant way, make sure they get great value for money, but above everything, make sure they drive great business impact and outcomes. Um and uh my philosophy is really uh around uh empowering people to do that independent of us. Uh we provide the structures, we provide the policies, the frameworks, the tools. Um but ultimately we need to support our stakeholders to do procurement effectively and efficiently without having to engage us every single day. Um if if that was if they engage me every single day, I'd have over three and a half thousand stakeholders talking to me every single day. Some days it feels like I have that many stakeholders. case of me, but it's more important that we play an advisory role and really help the business achieve the outcome that they want in the time frame they want with the budget that they have. Well, I mean you absolutely in all seriousness you lead to that issue of scale like you are one team and there are literally hundreds of thousands of people across Microsoft and certainly thousands in Australia who are buying stuff all the time. So that so I got to ask because obviously you know from a tech point of view how do you do you use technology to scale out a function you do to like all the things you said about getting the best price and being compliant. How is that a technology function that works there? Yeah, the the the longer we we work in procurement, the more we figure out we're actually using and leveraging technology in really powerful ways to enable us to scale. If if you were to look at a procurement department in Australia or New Zealand that managed the similar level of spend that goes through our Australian New Zealand businesses, we'd probably have 20 people there late to be frank managing procurement. end to end. Um, lucky for me, we have one. Um, or or is that unlucky? I'm not entirely sure. Um, uh, but we can only do that through the appropriate use of technology. Um, and we continue, uh, to talk about digital transformation. I actually like to flip that around, Lee, to be digital evolution because I transformation kind of tells us that there's an end date. Um, uh, and I don't think the, uh, transformation and evolution of procurement and the technology we use will stop. We've got some really innovative projects that we're working on, some really uh strong guided buying experiences for our employees, uh leveraging um uh artificial intelligence, uh leveraging uh chat bots to help people with a guided buying experience. How can we help you buy a good or a service on behalf of our company without having to engage procurement uh in the best possible way? Um uh how can we identify uh risks in our supply chain. How can we ensure that we're uh creating an inclusive economy? And there's so many different ways that we can adopt our own technology uh and leverage some existing technology to ensure we're doing that efficiently. And Dave, you were talking there about inclusive procurement and in inclusive economies. I know that you do some really amazing work to uh create um economic opportunities for indigenous businesses um as part of that Microsoft ecosystem. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Sure, Beth. And and when I talk about inclusive economy, I always like to talk about it um as uh supporting all underrepresented groups in our economy and and in Australia, New Zealand's case, that would be indigenous businesses, womenowned businesses, and social enterprises. Um so what we do as a as a company is we're really focused on trying to identify suppliers that can help us solve business problems that are representative of those underrepresented groups. We've got some really great partnerships with intermediaries in our um in these countries that help us identify these businesses. Uh and what it's uh what it really uh takes from there is for us to understand capability and capacity of those businesses and really it takes me trying to introduce those businesses to stakeholders in our business where I think they can help solve their business problem. Um, and I think uh that to me is something that I'm super passionate about. I think we uh quite often underestimate the power of these businesses. Uh these businesses are actually the nursery for future talent of indigenous employees, whether that be at Microsoft or another business. They're they're still the nursery for womenowned talent uh sorry women um uh talent in our workforce as well. We've got some outstanding womenowned business. and social enterprises are creating opportunities for people people that are disproportionately disadvantaged in our economy. People with a disability, people that may not have an opportunity to be employed. We've had some really great outcomes in using social enterprises um to employ people um uh that have autism uh and they've driven some great business outcomes in in Microsoft and I hope that continues moving forward. So, If I can ask and this is probably a difficult question to ask but like obviously by doing that and being a company that kind of distributes its procurement across a broader range of dis as you say dis disadvantaged or disrepres under underrepresented communities. Obviously there's good in that that we are injecting wealth or the distribution of money into sectors of society that aren't always necessarily as well represented. So it's kind of good for everybody in that way. But I assume there's more to it than that. I mean there we're actually getting the as you sort of touched on then there really unique value and experiences from these groups because they are so underrepresented but they represent something really unique to Microsoft. Is that how we kind of see procurement as a as a mechanism? I think the the there's a lot of uh conscious and unconscious bias associated with empowering or creating an inclusive economy. Um and a lot of people have a perception that this is a handout. Um and what I'm going to tell you is uh these businesses are amazing. businesses that are extremely capable and can do the job. What they've struggled with Lee is opportunity. Um big c big companies like Microsoft uh or our peers, we quite often like to play with other big companies. We think that reduces our risk. We think they will have all of the standards and policies required to do business with a company like us. Um and we believe based on their scale, it's going to enable us to um drive outcomes whether we have higher demand or lower demand in a more efficient way to be honest. Um I I think that simplification of a really complex landscape of suppliers um and in my experience the thing that we need to focus on above everything else is creating equity and opportunity. Um these businesses are capable. They're super competitive. They're just not given a chance to bid on work. Um so when I talk about creating a more inclusive economy, what I'm really trying to create is an opportunity bias for these business owners to bid on work for companies like us. They're not going to win everything, but what they do win, they're going to win on merit. Uh and they're going to excel. They're going to be supported, and that's going to help them grow. Uh the power of winning one job for us uh uh can be amplified throughout a a supplier's history and and future. I I think um the the impact of working for Microsoft has been extremely significant for a lot of the underrepresented business owners that we've engaged today. And Dave, just in terms of I I think that point is so important that we're we're awarding this work on the basis of merit and the fact that the companies can actually do it as well. Do you think that um you know that said there's a a role for a company like Microsoft to play in helping to build the capacity of some of these smaller suppliers. Um even as you look um and and your role is quite interesting. Because not only are you looking at the procurement piece, but as we're talking about partners and the procurement supply chain, we're also talking about how these partners might straddle into our partner ecosystem and work with our customers. Um and and that's where I see that there is some opportunity for us to support those businesses to build their skills to, you know, improve their tech technical skills and understand how some of these technologies are growing and shaping so that they can become more competitive. Do do you think that there's a role for Microsoft to play in in helping those organizations flourish? Absolutely, Beth. Um I I think if not us, who? Right. If if we're not here to empower businesses to achieve more, who is ultimately that's our company's mission? And I think the the challenge that we have in such a dynamic business like Microsoft is people see this as a risk. They see providing a business a new business an opportunity to uh win and execute work is a risk to them. Um and I kind of challenge that because we we provide businesses opportunities to win work or execute work for us all the time. The perception of uh these diverse businesses or underrepresented group uh owned businesses is it's a risk. It's no different to providing a new company a job at Microsoft. And I think the the thing that we need to do is really remove that conscious or unconscious bias really look at the the the objective look at the ability of this business to achieve that objective and then provide them an opportunity and help them be successful. Um I I think the the role of large organizations uh in procurement particularly we we saw our role to aggregate spend which we basically said oh well if we aggregate we get better value for money simple economics um and what we're finding is local businesses um as well as diverse businesses really have a competitive advantage in our market. Our market is a high-cost labor market. Um, and when you're applying those labor costs from international businesses as well as their corporate overhead and their profit expectations, a lot of Australian businesses and a lot of small and medium businesses um in Australia and New Zealand have a competitive advantage. They can do the job cheaper. They're here. They understand the market. So, I think our role is creating the opportunity um uh and building their capacity through building more and more opportunity off the back of that. The one of the the biggest issue we have, Beth, is typically if a business is successful at Microsoft, we make them drink from the fire hose. Um they have one job and then they have 50. Um and my job is to manage the expectations of our stakeholders and limit our exposure um uh exposing that business to too much work too soon. David, it's you were talking there a bit about kind of local businesses and I know you corrected us ear on this. You know, this isn't just an indigenous business challenge. This is about all sorts of underrepresented groups. But it kind of got me thinking because last week when we had the podcast, we talked about sustainability and we talked about the issues of supply chain sustainability and the fact that, you know, there's so much stuff that goes into the creation of any one product, service or offering that may well be out of your hands. So, how do you like I I can see how you've got this purview of perhaps the Australian market. You know, you can you can engage with that. You can see local suppliers and work with them, but how do you find all of these potential suppliers? And then how do you really understand the entire supply chain? How how does someone in your role think about, you know, the very raw materials that go into some of our products? I that must be a real issue. I'd love to learn how you've how you've thought about that problem. U absolutely it is an issue. Lee, I was talking to to one of our great partners, customers and suppliers um Telstra last week about this very issue. How do we know uh where uh we have supply chain risk? It's it's extremely complex problem. And when I talk about supply chain risk, I talk about things like conflict minerals. I talk about things like modern slavery. I talk about things uh like uh supporting underrepresented groups through economic empowerment. There's so many different things that we need to have an impact on. And that's not even talking about sustainability in its in the word sense of environmental impact. What are we doing to reduce our carbon footprint, reduce our use of water, um and uh also reduce waste. I mean as a as a function procurement is essentially driving these initiatives for global organizations whether that be Microsoft, Amazon, Google, uh Telra, uh BHP, Bilitin, Riotinto um and why is procurement driving it is probably the next question because most of these risks sit in our supply chain. Most of these businesses do not execute all of the work required to produce the products that they're generating revenue from. So procurement is tasked uh with uh driving transparency in that supply chain. Um and we're look really looking to technologies and and a lot of great startups in our ecosystem to support um uh our ability to drive that transparency report on our current state and then uh develop action plans for progress moving forward. It's So interesting, Dave. How do you how do you look at creating a a forward perspective when a lot of these a lot of the things that we've seen just in the last 3 years, you know, we we've had a global pandemic, um the issue in Ukraine with um with the Russia um invasion, we've had microchip shortages, like you there is a lot happening in the world, some of which would be quite hard to have predicted. um at least maybe it's possible to predict at some point we're going to have a p pandemic but it would have been impossible to determine exactly when. How do you how do we think about when these things are likely to happen? Is there a way for us to mitigate against these types of risks? Look, I think I think you're probably asking a question uh and this is something that um agitates me a little bit about procurement professionals approaches to developing strategy and I think we need to consider that uh historical spend does not equal future demand. Uh and how are we bridging that gap? How are we uh looking at our business and the way the way it's moving and trying to predict their needs moving forward? And there's a lot of heads of procurement and chief procurement officers that are trying to tackle this problem at the moment. And there's a lot of really great technology solutions that are in the market that are trying to use AI and ML to predict future demand and in particular one of our partners Robo Buy is doing a great job in in analyzing historical spend and looking at future opportunities and future demand opportunities. I I think we as procurement professionals put a lot of faith in uh spend analytics. Uh we we spend a lot of time looking at what we've done over the last two or three years uh in the hope that it's going to help us drive better strategies moving forward and predict predictable uh it better enables us to have predictable supply solutions um for our stakeholders. The the one thing that we want to move away from is being that roadblock. Uh and why are we that roadblock in some businesses? Um we're that roadblock because demand has changed. We need a new solution. Therefore, we need to go through a process and sometimes in in our company that process can take six months. In other companies, it can take 12 to 18 months um to actually put the right supplier agreement in place to meet that new demand. So, how are we actually trying to predict the future? How are we adopting technology to help us do that? Um I I think that's a million dollar billion dollar question for for most CPOS and it'll be interesting to see and listen to um a person like Lee's perspective on on how we could possibly do that. Maybe we need to start developing our own solution there. Lee, oh, can I come in on this deal? I don't I've got the answer to that. But what you just said triggered a thought because, you know, sitting in the responsible AI world, what we there's some similarities in so much as we there's a lot of ambiguity with AI. We don't know what's happening. You know, we're working with data to create an outcome and there's no correlation necessarily between what happened before and what's going to happen in the future. That's kind of the sort of beauty of AI systems. So, in order to embibe that sense of of trust in the system, and I think about that, you know, trust in the sense of a uh your supply chain mechanisms or the process by which people procure through. In in responsible AI worlds, we create a consistency of process. So, you never know what the outcome's going to be, but you always know what process you're going to have to follow to get through that process. And you mentioned people like Robo that are obviously using technology and AI or intelligence at least to automate some of that process. Is that how you like do we do some of that here in Microsoft or do you see that as being a an a mechanism to create a simplified or consistent experience? So, I'm just putting it in context like someone like like me who says to you, I okay, I need to get some equip I need to buy something for a particular event we're doing or for a piece of work we're doing. I wouldn't know where to go and find an indigenous partner or or or an unrepresented partner. I wouldn't know the process because I do it so infrequently in Microsoft. I could be put off really quickly because of those challenges. Do you use technology to help me as an internal procurement person do be better by giving me consistency? Yeah, absolutely. Lee, we attempt to is probably the answer. Whether we do it well enough right now and uh whether we need to evolve how we're doing it. I think the answer to that question is yes. Um when when we um uh if we look historically at where procurement thought technology was going to help them, we thought cataloges was going to be the answer for everything. Lee, we we thought if we've got a catalog, we can create a marketplace. Lee can go knock himself out and purchase whatever he wants through a marketplace. But what we're finding is the nuance and the slight differences in the services environment as opposed to the goods means cataloges are really hard um for us to use. Um we we're now adopting um uh different uses of technology. Uh we we're actually using a free freelancer services platform for professional services. That tool is called Upwork. Um and that really helps us uh shape a guided buying experience for people with professional services. Right now that guided buying experience is supported by people lee but in the future we'd love it to be supported by artificial intelligence. Um I I think when we look at goods there's some really great uses of technology right now. We talked about procuring devices before. Uh if someone wants to go and p purchase a surface we're currently triing the use of chat bots. Uh they might go through um uh a a process to uh identify the the device they need that's completely guided by a chatbot. Uh it'll be based on your previous purchase. Uh it'll be uh then amended to meet the current spec of the devices that are on the market in a similar way to to the way you might look at it, Lee. Um and then it would provide you some options to say here's three devices we think meet the spec that you need to do your job. Um which one would you like to purchase? Um and by clicking a button, all the other procurement activity that sits off the back of that raising requisition, purchase order approval, um all the delivery information sits uh and is done in an automated way uh through the appropriate uses of our technologies and that makes a lot of sense. You're automating that process stuff that is you know that that can be automated because once the decisions the com the bit that's not automatable somewhat is the kind of the making the right decision but once the decision is made the process is pretty automatable but you talk you know that that when you talk about that idea of the catalog and I remember trying to buy stuff from Microsoft online tools back in maybe five or 10 years ago. It was painful as all but but but the catalog almost denies that issue you brought up up front which is around how that's about de-risking things by putting things in boxes and saying okay well this all looks like buying you know t-shirts and swag and this all looks like buying event gear and it's hard to find the individual one. So I love the idea of a chatbot or some mechanism that guides me asks me the right question but guides me towards things that I wouldn't have seen otherwise. And I think that's a really that's a great outcome of that. But look I I think that um you know there's probably a lot of technology use and ways that technology can automate that be used in that process because I think that's that's one of the great things I see about AI is that it creates I think you said the personalized experience my procurement experience is going to be entirely different to to Beth's you know and and even though we're integrating with the same system I don't know Beth you any thoughts or comments there. Yeah it's it's really interesting I think that technology can certainly play a role in trying to get us all to think differently about how we go through this process. But I also think perhaps some of the magic of what you do, Dave, especially around the internal evangelism is about um you getting people to stop and think about how they can use their their money that they're already intending to invest in buying a good or service in a different way. So it's more mindful and you know getting people to actually actively think about their procurement choices is is part of the benefit. of what we're doing. So whilst you want technology to help um guide the process, I think the important thing is that you're asking people to engage in some decision making which asks people to you know actively think about how how they can achieve more with the same amount of money. And I guess that was the question I was going to ask you Dave. It's um every time we have a conversation I I feel more excited about procurement than I ever thought was possible. um certainly based on um working with with this um kind of area and previous companies. The way you approach it is really really exciting. Do you feel like this is a way of actually really getting people to and companies to drive more um environmental and social outcomes at scale? And is what you're doing also sort of cascading into people's personal lives in in what they do and how they spend their money as well. Do you think? Um, so I'd probably answer the last question first. I hope so, Beth. I hope every single person I talk to at Microsoft thinks about the way they purchase and how that money is impacting their community, uh, how that money is impacting the environment, uh, and what they can do every single day to make better decisions to support both. I think the challenge that we have when we talk about um, making better decisions to create a more inclusive economy or making better purchasing decisions to support our sustainability objectives. To be frank, no large or organization that has a climate target can meet it without procurement. Right? No, no, no business that has a target create a more inclusive economy can do it without procurement. Um, and I'm not saying procurement as the function. I'm saying procuring goods and services are going to be critical to them meeting the targets that they've set in their organization and what what is the procurement functions role in that. Um I would say it's to empower people to do this in the simplest way possible. So making sure when you're making a guided buying experience the recommendations are sustainable options, the recommendations are inclusive businesses. Um it doesn't uh one of the things I found in my journey is people are more likely to purchase from an underrepresent group if they don't know they're an underrepresented group. They're just looking at the facts of what the business is capable of and how commercially competitive they are rather than questioning whether this business that's a small and medium business could do the job because they're womenowned. I find that ridiculous. Um for me, we as procurement need to help our business make better purchasing decisions to help us meet these targets that we've set which are extremely critical for our communities and our countries and and and the world to be frank. Um and to do that we need to um make sure these guided buying experiences are putting every possible uh solution in place to simplify the selection of the right business for the right outcome. And that outcome isn't just money anymore. Um procurement needs to have a whole view of this and I like to turn that the total business requirement. Your budget is one indicator of success. Your commit to reducing um carbon is another. Your commitment to creating a more inclusive economy is another. Your commitment to eradicating modern slavery in a supply chain is another. Um so there's so many layers to this and the complexity of the risk profile uh and the potential impacts of those risks if they're not dealt with in the appropriate way um is is what makes procurement beautiful at times. We need to simplify that for our buyers. So they can make decisions independent of us. So our organization as a whole can meet all those targets. Yeah. To to kind of question. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Uh the the the the way that we make purchasing decisions needs to empower every person in our organization to make the best decision and that's not just price. Um and I think the more that we all understand and have visibility to how impactful our decisions are and uh in terms of who we purchase from, the better we're all going to be at that. And and I see that as a core part of my job and probably the part of my job I'm most passionate about is helping people understand the impact of the money that they spend in our community to drive these outcomes that that we're all so invested in. Dave Dave, your passion just shines through and I know every time we talk about this, I can just sense how much this is not just a job for you, but it is a labor of love in the way that do this. But, you know, we've talked you you talked a lot there about kind of how you do the job to help people inside Microsoft be better and and do better and make these better decisions. I'm kind of keen. Last question from me. If we were looking at to our audience and maybe there's some people out there who are underrepresented or have our own business or are seeking that way into not just Microsoft but into the industry as a whole. What you do you have any words of advice or guidance to people in that position? How do they break down that door of the Microsoft procurement engine or any others and become part of that? system. This is this is always I get this question a lot, Lee, and I I always become a little bit You got a perfect answer then, I'm sure. Yeah. I I think um the the best thing to say is persistence and determination are omnipotent, right? They're all powerful. It's the one thing that is going to help you as an underrepresented business find other work. The challenge that uh these business owners have have typically uh is they they can't find the door. The front door is non-existent. They might be bashing on a on a door in a company which will never open. So um the the best way to uh drive uh these opportunities is becoming members of intermediaries. Intermediaries like supply nation for indigenous businesses. So or or or Amotai in New Zealand. Uh social traders or Akina Um so Australia and New Zealand uh we connect international um these intermediaries will allow you to connect with people in these organizations that are focused on this work from a sustainability point of view. There's a there's a great business called Givable that's starting to certify and register not only um uh diverse business ownership but they're also starting to measure and track impact against sustainability certifications across the globe. Um you should be looking at uh trying to enroll your business on their platform. There's lots of other platforms that are really looking to to drive the same. And I think as we as large businesses start to focus on this, I I actually see more progress in the medium and small business sector uh than I do at Microsoft. Um I'd challenge any business owner that's listening to this podcast to identify any business in their local community that's uh um uh owned by an indigenous person or or woman or or is a a social enterprise and go and support them. Um go and buy from them. Use the power of your dollars to help them because the more that we get support in the small and medium business sector, the more that we get support in the the large corporate business sector and the public sector, the more these businesses are going to thrive. And uh I think the last thing that I typically say here is uh procurement isn't your buyer, right? We don't have budget. Uh so make sure you're always talking to the person who's your buyer, making sure that you're always pushed to talk to the ultimate decision maker. Um because sometimes procurement can be a roadblock. Um but they should be there to empower you and their organization to do more. Um uh and where you're feeling a little bit of strain or or resistance, just be persistent. Um your opportunity will come eventually. That's so brilliant, Dave. I always feel inspired um when you talk. Um, that said, I was thinking with sympathy about your family and friends um because you must have um a hell of a a dinner party conversation or especially if you're going to a restaurant and you're procuring dinner and drinks must be um just a super quick question. Do you ever allow yourself an impulse buy? Even if it's um you know a in your personal life, do you do that? And what was the last impulse buy that you had? Well, I'm going to give away one of my passions here. I love golf. I I play golf all the time. My last impulse buy was a a a nice new driver for myself. And thankfully, or unthankfully, it hasn't helped me at all. So, maybe I need to think about those impulse decisions, Beth. Um but I I definitely think um we we all have room uh to to impulse buy. Um but fundamentally, when I'm making a large purchase decision, Beth. Uh, the facts are the things that rule my decision-making process and, um, I think my family and friends know one thing about me. They know that I'm not driven by emotion. Um, so when I see people that do, that's when they get the tough questions. Uh, so um, I would encourage everyone just to take the emotion out of their purchasing decisions. They'll get much better outcomes. Yeah, I love that. I'm going to say that exact thing when I take my daughter to Kmart next time and we're going past the Barbie section. Good luck with that. Yeah, it's awfully emotional um in Kmartat sometimes. Dave, thank you so much for your time. It's um yeah, it's great to be able to share these insights with people. I think uh you know, if we could clone you and um make you available to to our customers and partners, the world would be a better place. But I'm sure you're one of many people who are on this crusade for more um impact through procurement. So, thank you again for sharing those insights. Thanks, Beth. And and I'm definitely one of many people that are focused on this. And uh to all those people that are listening, just keep going. Um the the if we're better tomorrow than we were today, we're all going to achieve what we want to achieve. And I I think the ultimate thing for us is if we can meet these targets for sustainability, if we can create a more inclusive economy, we're really going to stop the division we see in the world. I think um a lot of division is caused through through investment. And um we can we can change that in in every single part of our life, even with our impulse buys. Love it. Well, I'm going to have to wrap up there. I can see that I've made um a sacrifice of a Javiana thong. The puppy has chewed through my single plugger. So, I might need to go and procure myself some new footwear. But thanks again. Good to catch up with you, Lee. And you too. Thanks, Beth. And thanks Dave again. Wonderful time. Wonderful session. Thank you. Bye, everyone. Oh, heat.