Alison Roman is enjoying being an “elder millennial” and not feeling the pressure of being on TikTok or even doing all that much on Instagram, the platform that helped make her reputation (although she did meet her boyfriend when he slid into her DMs). “I do furniture shopping on Instagram,” she says, describing what she calls her fraught relationship with the app. “That’s what I use it for.”The queen of viral recipes is no longer as known for #TheCookies or #TheStew as she is for simply being a food and media personality. She has just published her third book, Sweet Enough (already a bestseller), she has a thriving YouTube channel, her A Newsletter boasts more than 220,000 subscribers, and she very almost had a CNN show that ultimately hasn’t seen the light of day because of the network’s fickle business strategy. But there’s also that other thing: the cancellation. In a May 2020 interview with a small newsletter, Alison criticized Marie Kondo and Chrissy Teigen’s business empires, which led to critics—and then a Twitter mob—accusing her of anti-Asian racism. Alison apologized and self-criticized, profusely, but she lost her New York Times column and some friends along the way. Three years on, she’s feeling a lot better about her career and position, but it still smarts. “To have the entire world, what feels like the entire world, wanting you dead and telling you what a bad person you are and how horrible you are, and just wild stuff—I wouldn’t wish that upon anybody.”This conversation is packed with Alison’s insight and wit, and a steady dose of self-reflection. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. https://anewsletter.alisoneroman.com/  Show notes * Subscribe to A Newsletter on Substack* Find Alison on Instagram, YouTube, and her personal website* Alison’s books: Dining In, Nothing Fancy, and, published this week, Sweet Enough* Alison’s New York Times column* The milk girl meme mentioned* [02:39] Using Instagram as a tool* [06:32] A writer rather than a creator* [09:23] Trying journalism * [11:08] Starting the newsletter * [17:14] Alison’s fraught relationship with social media * [20:54] Reaching “visual success” * [28:00] Becoming a pastry chef * [31:03] Writing tips from Bon Appétit * [37:01] Striving for longevity * [40:16] Sweet Enough * [43:25] The exorcism of writing * [46:48] On speaking out * [49:49] Being canceled in 2020* [54:49] On resilience* [1:03:31] Future AlisonThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

I met Patti Smith at Electric Lady Studios, the studio in New York’s Greenwich Village opened by Jimi Hendrix a few weeks before he died, and she immediately walked me down to the basement level to show me the original murals—psychedelic, space-themed—that Hendrix had commissioned for the walls. She had first seen them in 1970, at the studio’s opening, when, before she was a well-known artist and the “godmother of punk rock,” she bumped into Hendrix on the staircase. “He stopped and talked to me and told me that he was also shy,” she says. “We talked about his vision for the studio.” Five years later, she recorded the groundbreaking album Horses in Studio A. “It was beautiful but heartbreaking when we started recording to realize that he had such visions for the studio and never got to realize them.”Our initial plan was to do our interview in Studio A, but a miscommunication meant that it was already occupied by a film crew, so we instead went upstairs to a much smaller room, where Patti sat on a brown leather couch and I planted myself on an office chair opposite her. We sat there in conversation for two hours, and most of the time I was just thinking, “I’m sitting with Patti Smith, I’m sitting with Patti Smith,” breaking every so often in an attempt to produce a smart-enough question. Confined to her home during the pandemic, Patti started publishing on Substack to serialize a story, “The Melting,” and then began sharing poetry, songs, audio notes, and videos where she read to her subscribers and shared memories. “It kept me engaged with the people in the world.” Once she was free to tour again, she shot video on her iPhone to take her subscribers backstage with her band. She also performed a concert from Studio A that was livestreamed for her subscribers. Her Substack is her only online presence other than Instagram, where, at her daughter’s urging, she opened an account and now has more than 1 million followers. She’s 76 years old but still rocking hard, as demonstrated by her energetic birthday performance at Brooklyn Steel. In this conversation, I ask her about how being an artist in 2023 compares to 1973, and how she views this current moment in culture. We talked about building things up versus tearing things down, about friends loved and lost, and about living with gratitude. The opening line from Hendrix’s epic song “1983… (A Merman I Should Turn to Be)” has become something like a mantra for Patti: “Hooray, I wake from yesterday.”Hooray indeed.https://pattismith.substack.com/ Show notesSubscribe to Patti Smith on SubstackYou can also find Patti on Instagram[03:37] Meeting Jimi Hendrix[10:28] Learning to write[12:18] Transcribing with Lenny Kaye [14:40] Lost loved ones[15:53] Friendship at its best[25:09] Writing The Melting[20:01] Trying Twitter, then Instagram[36:31] Taking subscribers behind the scenes[38:56] Being an artist in 1973[41:46] Patti’s “not so secret” goal[44:09] On Picasso and social media[57:00] On being misrepresented in the media[59:06] Still mourning John Lennon[1:02:23] Contributing something of qualityThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

When Emily Oster wrote an article for The Atlantic to suggest an amnesty in the pandemic wars, she received a shockingly sharp rebuke from those who weren’t ready to forgive. On the left, there were people who felt that the unvaccinated jeopardized untold lives; on the right, there were people still furious about the way they were treated for not going along with the lockdowns. But by that time, social media cancellations were a familiar ritual for Emily, who had already upset some souls with articles about school closures (she was against them) and the Covid risks faced by children (minor) relative to older people (less minor). Even though she was developing a thicker skin, the force of the response to the amnesty piece threw her a little. The worst part? She couldn’t tell from the angry emails who was who. “The thing that was in some ways incredibly sad about that reaction was I would get then so many emails, and they were all very mean, most of them. And sometimes I would start reading and I would just think, ‘I don’t even know which side you’re on.’ ”When the pandemic struck, Emily was already well known as the author of the data-informed pregnancy and parenting books Expecting Better and Cribsheet, both of which have become wild bestsellers. But Covid only accelerated her ascent, as anxious parents turned to her for wisdom in navigating uncertain times. She started a Substack newsletter, ParentData, which has become a phenomenon in its own right, with more than 160,000 subscribers. The newsletter was a lifeline for many of its readers, who treated Emily like a trusted advisor or a friend. Those relationships reminded her that, even as the worst of the attacks rolled in via email and social media, she was making a positive difference in people’s lives. It gave her the confidence to say important and true things, even when there was a social cost to doing so. “There was a connection that was forged there that I think helped people in a time that was really hard, and I’m really proud that I got to do that,” Emily says. “I think that that is totally worth it from that standpoint. So I’m not sorry.”https://www.parentdata.org/Emily’s recommended reads:https://whattocook.substack.com/https://www.thenewfatherhood.org/https://substack.com/profile/12430253-nellie-bowlesShow notesSubscribe to ParentData on SubstackFind Emily on Twitter, Instagram, and her websiteEmily’s writing in The Atlantic: on school closures and a pandemic amnesty[02:41] Wanting to be a writer[04:41] Writing Expecting Better[07:15] The Amy Schumer moment[09:22] Writing Cribsheet[12:16] The tension of social media [14:41] Writing about Covid-19 and school closures[18:33] The cost of being yelled at on Twitter[21:32] Developing a thickened skin[25:49] Writing The Atlantic piece [26:55] Dealing with abusive comments[28:03] Humanizing both sides[29:49] Learnings from the blowbacks[32:09] Weighing up taking the heat[35:25] The value of writing on Substack[39:18] On going paid[42:00] Academia and writing[45:50] Teaching students[49:00] Emily’s recommended readsThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

Etgar Keret’s parents, both of whom survived the Holocaust, gave him the gift of imagination, a garden he has been watering with stories since he was a child. His father crouched in a hole in the ground for more than 600 days to escape the Nazis in Belarus, getting through the time by telling himself stories of a parallel universe in which everything was the same except for one detail (like that there were still Nazis who chased Jews, but when they caught them they would give them sweets). Etgar’s mother crafted bedtime stories with as much care as if she were doing needlepoint, passing on a tradition cultivated by her parents in the Warsaw Ghetto. “I grew up with the fact that making up a story for somebody is the ultimate act of generosity,” Etgar says. Now in his 50s and living in Tel Aviv, Etgar has published prolifically, most prominently short stories, many of which can be found on his Substack, Alphabet Soup, but also essays, poems, and films, including 2007’s Jellyfish, which he co-directed with his wife, Shira Geffen (see his latest short film below). He’s also a favorite guest of Ira Glass’s on This American Life. In this conversation, we go deep on the importance of storytelling, how to find contentment in an age of social media, and the thorny issue of sensitivity readers in publishing. I am sure you will enjoy it.Etgar’s recommended reads:https://joycecaroloates.substack.com/https://georgesaunders.substack.com/https://salmanrushdie.substack.com/Show notes* Subscribe to Alphabet Soup on Substack* Find Etgar on Instagram and his personal website* [05:39] Etgar’s father’s hiding * [19:23] Memories of his mother* [20:14] Having a rich inner life* [22:19] Balcony living* [24:00] A metaphor for life* [27:33] Create a small village* [30:23] On sensitivity readers* [41:07] Etgar’s new short film* [42:04] On artistic identities* [43:25] The hustler’s reality* [45:55] The world’s biggest problem today* [52:00] Recommended writersThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

Heather Havrilesky’s writing career has spanned the life of the internet, starting with the satirical site Suck.com, moving through Salon, The Awl, and New York Magazine, and ending up on Substack, where she publishes two much-loved newsletters: Ask Polly and Ask Molly. Heather has mastered the art of reinvention, bending with the winds of the web, as news sites have variously chased SEO, blogging, Facebook traffic, and the rest. She settled on an approach that has worked for her: doubling down on what she likes. That attitude ultimately took her into advice giving, where she has carved out an immense reputation as one of America’s preeminent practitioners of the form, primarily through Ask Polly, for years a mainstay of New York Magazine’s The Cut. Polly got her start, though, at The Awl, the fan-favorite blog co-founded by Choire Sicha that was home to many of the best and most obsessive online writers of the 2010s, before social media had completely corrupted the landscape for essayists and delightful internet weirdos. While writing Polly for The Cut, Heather saw social media grow in reach and then start to infect the minds of fellow writers who toiled under its constricting influence. “It’s almost like an issue of when the auditorium becomes too big and filled with voices,” she says, “you start to feel self-conscious about making sounds when everyone is in the room.” Those pressures came to bear on Heather with exaggerated force after the New York Times published an excerpt of her latest book, Foreverland, an irreverent marriage memoir that comes out in paperback this Valentine’s Day. The excerpt carried the subheading “Do I hate my husband? Oh for sure, yes, definitely.” It was enough to create a meme, and Heather spent the next few days being knocked around Twitter for being a husband-hating harlot (or worse, depending on the tweets). What was that experience like for someone who has been writing online for 27 years? Well, it turns out, not easy at all—even for an advice columnist who always manages to find the right words for those who are brushed by misfortune. However, in the pain, she has managed to find a balm for herself in a book idea that emerged from her essay writing on Substack. “One thing that kept me feeling good,” Heather says, “was this idea that life could be deeply romantic even when everything felt terrible.” Her new obsession with finding the romantic in the mundane is proving to be more than just a coping mechanism—it’s a way of looking at life. “Discovering new ways of being happy in spite of a lot of things that are aggravating you is—it’s the most romantic thing of all.” https://www.ask-polly.com/ Heather’s recommended reads:https://www.todayintabs.com/https://therealsarahmiller.substack.com/https://hunterharris.substack.com/https://laurenhough.substack.com/https://www.blackbirdspyplane.com/https://cintra.substack.com/https://griefbacon.substack.com/https://indignity.substack.com/Show notesSubscribe to Ask Polly and Ask Molly on SubstackFind Heather on Twitter and InstagramSuck.com, Salon, The AwlHeather’s books: Disaster Preparedness (2011), How to Be a Person in the World (2017), What If This Were Enough? (2019), Foreverland (out in paperback on Feb. 14)Excerpt of Foreverland in the New York Times, and the New York Post responseWriting about voice lessons on Ask Molly[02:17]: Working at Suck.com[08:31] Changing San Francisco[09:13] The “jackassery” of boomer optimism [10:58] Smart, weird, fun people everywhere [12:57] The shape-shifting nature of being an online writer [16:12] Becoming an advice writer [18:43] The awe of the Awl [24:58] The freedom, and danger, of social media [30:00] Ask Molly, Polly’s evil twin[31:57] Publishing books [36:59] Being misinterpreted in mainstream media  [40:55] Reacting to being attacked online[46:44] Workshopping her next book [50:31] Writing an advice column for 10 years [52:53] Recommended writers on SubstackThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

In the 1990s, the English writer Paul Kingsnorth was a radical environmental activist, taking part in road blockades and protesting at WTO summits. Today he calls himself a “recovering environmentalist” and doesn’t believe people can do all that much to halt the march of the markets and technology. For instance, he thinks of climate change as a predicament to be endured, not a problem to be solved. His focus instead is on making sense of this revolutionary time we are living through and finding wisdom in old stories, especially religious ones, to help us live well through civilizational collapse. Paul is not like many other writers on Substack. He is uneasy with technology, worrying about how humans use it to become gods, driving ourselves ever further from a state of nature, losing touch with the wild. That might sound depressing, but if you read his essays on his Substack, The Abbey of Misrule, you are likely to find the opposite. Paul writes in search of beauty and, in my opinion, strikes on it quite often. Amid the assessment of cultural breakdown, he offers some comfort and release, giving the reader permission to turn away from technological distraction and focus on the simple things in life: family, nature, love, and intellectual nourishment. https://paulkingsnorth.substack.com/Paul’s recommended reads:https://carolineross.substack.com/https://martinshaw.substack.com/https://theupheaval.substack.com/https://angelanagle.substack.com/Show notesSubscribe to The Abbey of Misrule on SubstackFind more books and information on Paul on his personal websiteThe Dark Mountain ProjectPaul’s mentioned books: Confessions of a Recovering Environmentalist, Real England[02:20] Words as supreme communication [04:34] Being an activist writer[06:45] Environmentalism[15:39] Turning to religion[24:25] Having a famous compost toilet[32:41] Being attacked as a “fascist”[40:17] On the tension of censorship and integrity[44:37] Debating the Covid-19 vaccine[50:30] Substack as old-fashioned, in a good way[53:01] Liberation after losing a father[56:00] Advice to other writers[57:42] Recommended writers on SubstackThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

Jessica DeFino’s face literally had to peel off before she gave up on beauty products and turned a critical eye on the beauty industry. As a journalist covering the industry, she had been inundated with free beauty products, which she enthusiastically accepted. Then she developed dermatitis and had a bad reaction to the steroids she was prescribed to treat it.“My skin started peeling off of my face in chunks,” she says. “For months, my skin was just oozing red. I couldn’t put makeup on. I couldn’t use products. I could barely splash water on my face without being in immense pain.”She fell into a deep depression and had a crisis of self. “It really made me examine who I was when I didn’t have this armor of beauty products,” she says, “because when I felt like I was ugly, I felt absolutely worthless.” Today, Jessica writes The Unpublishable, a cult-favorite newsletter with the tagline “What the beauty industry won’t tell you, from a reporter on a mission to reform it.” In it, she critiques obsessions with Botox-like injectables, the sleight of hand behind “no-makeup faces,” and the social implications of nose jobs, among other exceptionally hot topics. This unapologetic coverage, unusual in the beauty space, has helped The Unpublishable grow from 2,000 subscribers to more than 50,000 last year, with boosts from a viral Twitter thread in which she exposed what it was like to work for the Kardashians and a shout-out from Dua Lipa. In this episode of The Active Voice, I talk with Jessica about the effect social media is having on how we think about beauty, her struggles with writing a book, and why her death-and-redemption experience with beauty culture is definitely just like Jesus dying on the cross for his followers. If you, too, want to see the light, I encourage you to listen to her testimony. https://jessicadefino.substack.com/Jessica’s recommended reads:Back Row by Amy OdellHow To Cure A Ghost by Fariha RóisínHEATED by Emily AtkinShow notesSubscribe to The Unpublishable on SubstackFind Jessica on Twitter and Instagram[04:15] Anti product, pro people [06:12] Participating in beauty pageants [07:30] Working on the Kardashian-Jenner apps [09:34] Developing dermatitis [13:17] Beauty as religion [14:45] Going viral on Twitter [17:52] Working harder than ever before [20:15] The reality of attention [21:18] Getting death threats from nail artists [25:19] Writing a book[29:19] The mind of an online writer [32:08] Instagram face [40:16] Beyond beauty[51:40] The Unpublishable audienceThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

Ted Gioia, the great music and cultural critic, has never lived in New York and it has cost him. He knows he is completely out of touch. “I didn’t make the relationships, I didn’t have editors opening doors for me,” he says. “Things were harder for me at every step along the way because I wasn’t at those cocktail parties.” But not being in New York has its upsides. Perhaps most importantly: it has helped Ted retain the mindset of an independent outsider, less vulnerable to the groupthink that can overtake the modern media. From his perch in Austin, Texas, and previously in Silicon Valley, the author of 12 books on music and co-founder of Stanford University’s jazz studies program sees things that his peers tend to miss. On his Substack, The Honest Broker, Ted has taken the music industry to task for its failure to discover and nurture new music; he has argued that despite a time of democratized access to publishing, society is missing a counterculture; and he has pointed to indicators of Facebook’s impending collapse. Occasionally, he’ll write a deeply researched series about a figure from rock history that would never find its way into a mainstream outlet.In this conversation for The Active Voice, we discuss how internet platforms are changing our cultural industries for better and worse, how the rise of the likes of YouTube and Substack are helping creators subvert the gatekeepers to outshine traditional channels, and how social media has become a sameness machine—a perpetrator and victim of crowd psychology based on people’s intense need to be just like everyone else. “Platforms like Twitter, which should be independent voices saying fresh things, start to feel like everybody’s shouting the same thing all at once.”The way out? Find the person who can rise above the fray. Find the honest broker…Ted’s recommended reads:https://lewisporter.substack.com/https://greilmarcus.substack.com/https://iverson.substack.com/https://jeffreysultanof.substack.com/Show notesSubscribe to The Honest Broker on SubstackFind Ted on Twitter, Instagram, and his websiteElias Canetti, Crowds and Power[02:39] The story behind the name, The Honest Broker[08:41] Journalism and the media[11:17] Avoiding politics[12:10] Perks of being a music writer[15:27] On being the outsider[17:02] Ted’s background[21:12] How the internet destroyed music culture[26:56] The role of TikTok in the music industry[33:09] Mimetic desire, René Girard, and social media[36:21] The exception of Kenny G[40:02] Choosing the writing life[44:05] Advice to young writersThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

I can’t imagine what it must be like to grow up on social media, especially as someone who says things in public—to try to figure out who you are as an adult while living under the panoptic gaze of TikTok and Instagram, or to have one’s intellectual identity shaped by the performative shoutysphere of Twitter. I’m old enough to have missed all that, but Rayne Fisher-Quann, a 21-year-old Canadian writer who has built a large presence on social media and a cult-favorite Substack called Internet Princess, has forged her life and career in the attention economy. How has she dealt with it? With a soul-saving dose of self-awareness. “I think almost everybody who posts to some degree on the internet is addicted to attention,” she says. “I mean, most of these apps literally try to make you addicted to the attention, actively.” And she’s acutely attuned to the dark sides, noting that the things that win the most attention on social media are those she considers ethically wrong. If she has her way, she’ll be living on a farm by the age of 35, largely disconnected from the internet. For now, however, she remains very online and very interesting. Rayne communicates on social media and Substack with intelligence and wit to a devoted audience mostly made up of teenagers and young women. Her followers devour her takes on the shaming of public-facing women, the real motivations behind the takedowns of “West Elm Caleb,” and the attacks on Amber Heard. They laugh at her jokes on TikTok, thrill to her (sometimes private) tweets, and go deep with her in Substack Chats.In this conversation, which we recorded live in front of an audience at Substack HQ, we talk about the hostility of TikTok, where people are constantly seeking to misunderstand each other; how she cultivates an online persona that’s close to, but not quite, her real self; and treading the fine line between an open discussion of mental illness and the commodifying of it through social media. “It’s tough,” she says, “because the fan base that I have, and the way that I can present myself, almost anything that I do can become an object of envy or an object of romanticization, which is really strange.”https://internetprincess.substack.com/Publishing note: The Active Voice will be on break for a few weeks over the holidays. See you in January, 2023!Rayne’s recommended reads:https://franmagazine.substack.com/https://kieranmclean.substack.com/https://evilfemale.substack.com/Show notes* Subscribe to Internet Princess on Substack* Find Rayne on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok* Rookie Mag by Tavi Gevinson * [4:53] Becoming famous on TikTok* [6:31] Being misunderstood online* [10:54] Insulating against the backlash* [13:00] The performance of women writers* [14:40] Creating an internet persona* [16:34] Growing up with blogs* [17:56] Writing in lowercase* [20:40] Mental health communities * [23:25] Being made into a Spotify playlist* [27:01] Pitching to Vice* [27: 53] Rayne’s writing process* [30:17] Roots in activism* [33:37] Being chemically addicted to attention* [40:07] Big tech * [40:59] Dreams for Rayne’s future* [42:14] Role models* [46:17] Making a living as a young writer* [49:27] Dropping out of university* [51:21] Getting a job* [54:17] Recommended writersThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com

You’ll have to forgive my self-indulgence in this conversation, because I’ve gone deep with Joshi Herrmann—not a celebrity name or a celebrated author, I hope he won’t be offended by me saying—about a bunch of things that scratch my particular interests in media: local news, New York media-startup scandals circa 2016, subscriptions versus ads, venture capital, and canceled Netflix comedians. Joshi is the founder of a fledgling media empire anchored by The Mill, a local news publication covering the city of Manchester, England, that he launched in 2020. The Mill, which is based entirely on Substack and funded by subscribers, just reached profitability—a rare success story in a space (local news) that hasn’t exactly been booming in recent years. Encouraged by The Mill’s progress, Joshi has since launched similar publications in Sheffield and Liverpool based on doing high-quality, low-volume longform reporting on issues that matter to cities that are poorly served by the existing media structure. Joshi was a reporter for the Evening Standard in London for four years before, in 2015, he moved to New York for a dream job as the editor in chief for a startup that published The Tab, a news site written by university students and young people about the cultural issues of the time. The Tab quickly gave rise to a spinoff publication called Babe.net, which shot to notoriety after publishing a story that detailed a young woman’s bad night with Aziz Ansari, which led to the comedian’s “cancellation.” The story came at the height of #MeToo, causing a fiery debate between people who felt it was an important reckoning for behavior that happens often but is under-discussed and those who felt it muddied the lines between truly abusive behavior and something closer to a bad date. Joshi watched it all unfold from an uncomfortable position: he was the editor on that story…Joshi’s recommended reads:The Bluestocking, PassTheAux, and Vittles.Show notes* Subscribe to The Mill in Manchester on Substack, as well as its sister sites, Sheffield Tribune in Sheffield, and The Post in Liverpool* The Tab and Babe.net* Aziz Ansari story on Babe.net and Ansari’s response* NYT commentary on the Babe.net piece* The Cut on Babe.net* [1:46] Breaking even in local news* [1:55] Feeling like a fraud* [4:48] Getting into local journalism* [8:07] On losing a parent* [12:00] Pursuing an unpromising venture* [13:55] Redefining the problem of local news  * [18:56] Joining The Tab in New York* [22:41] Steroidal audience growth vs. community* [25:25] The “bullshit” of new media’s gold-rush era* [26:37] How Babe.net started* [28:28] How Babe broke the Aziz Ansari story* [30:17] How the Ansari story relates to Me Too* [38:06] Lessons from being on the other side of the story* [39:51] Reflections on that time* [41:40] Adapting a new approach to longform* [44:48] Shutting down The Tab and Babe.net* [46:06] Life lessons for The Mill* [47:55] Launching two sister sites in the U.K.* [48:38] The public hunger for great local journalismThe Active Voice is a podcast hosted by Hamish McKenzie, featuring weekly conversations with writers about how the internet is affecting the way they live and write. It is produced by Hanne Winarsky, with audio engineering by Seven Morris, content production by Hannah Ray, and production support from Bailey Richardson. All artwork is by Joro Chen, and music is by Phelps & Munro. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit read.substack.com