The Fourth Curtain

Our guest Louis Castle helped invent real-time strategy games with Command and Conquer and has a BAFTA for Boom Blox. Now leading Childlike Wonder Games, we discuss casino ethics, switching to real-time and building toys - this week!Top 8 Highlights[00:00:00] – Lifelong Learning: The Key to Game Design Success Louis Castle opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of constant learning as a game designer, citing curiosity and adaptability as essential traits.[00:06:00] – Founding Westwood Studios & Creating the RTS Genre Louis reflects on co-founding Westwood Studios, the groundbreaking work on Command & Conquer, and helping define the real-time strategy genre. [00:10:00] – Game Design vs. Casino Game Ethics He explains how game design in the casino industry is more ethically regulated than video games, raising concerns about manipulation in mainstream game design. [00:17:00] – A True Multidisciplinary Game Maker Louis shares how he started as both an artist and programmer, contributing art, code, and design to early Westwood projects. [00:27:00] – Westwood’s Mission: Make Complex Games Accessible From Eye of the Beholder to Dune II, Louis discusses how Westwood focused on turning deep mechanics into real-time, accessible gameplay. [00:41:00] – Technical Wizardry: Building Custom Operating Systems Louis describes how he built custom OS-level tools and game engines to push hardware limits, including 60 FPS variable frame rate systems in the ‘80s. [00:44:00] – Childlike Wonder Games: His New Studio & GenAI Vision He announces his new studio, Childlike Wonder Games, and its mission to create strategy games that let players use generative AI to customize gameplay. [00:56:00] – The Wild Ride: Selling Westwood 4 Times Before EA Louis recounts how Westwood was acquired four times—eventually landing at EA—and how he handled all the financial and legal negotiations himself. Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Amir Satvat wants to get you a job in games. A business development executive at Tencent, he won the Game Changer award for the incredible community he built which has helped over 3k gamedevs find their next role with mentorship, mock interviews and more. We discuss "the troubles" and hopes for the future - this week!You can find Amir's website and community here: https://amirsatvat.com/[00:00:00] The 17-Year Grind: Amir shares how it took nearly two decades—and hundreds of rejections—before landing his first job in games at age 38.[00:14:00] The Job Engine Behind 3,300 Careers: Amir’s community has helped thousands land jobs in games. From mock interviews to portfolio reviews—this is how it all works.[00:22:00] 2,300 Games and One Epic Spreadsheet: Amir has played over 2,300 games, tracking his thoughts on each one in a personal mega-spreadsheet since childhood.[00:26:00] Inside Four Rooms of Game Collectibles: Amir owns every Amiibo, rare WOW minis, and a glowing Wind Waker statue—all spread across four dedicated rooms.[00:27:00] Why the Game Industry is Shrinking (for Now): Layoffs, oversupply, and rising dev costs—Amir breaks down the real reasons behind the industry's contraction.[00:34:00] The Great Talent Shift to Asia: Data shows jobs migrating away from California and toward Asia and Europe—Amir explains why it’s happening and what it means.[00:42:00] Hope, Help, and Hugging at GDC: Amir reflects on the emotional impact of his work—stories of saved homes, career comebacks, and life-changing support.[01:08:00] Has Gaming Growth Peaked? The crew unpacks whether the golden age of game industry expansion is slowing—and what’s next for developers and players alike.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Alex Beachum turned his thesis project into the mind-bending smash Outer Wilds. Inspired by greats such as Zelda and Antichamber, it blazed new ground by having a nonviolent (though definitely mortal) player. We discuss emotional prototypes, four distinct mysteries and the IGF - this week!Highlights[00:00:30] Emotional Prototyping: Designing with Feeling Alex Beachum discusses the idea of building an emotional prototype for a game, capturing the vibe before mechanics—like roasting marshmallows as the sun explodes. This became the emotional core of Outer Wilds. [00:17:30] The Origin of the Supernova Mechanic: The moment that inspired the iconic supernova loop in Outer Wilds—watching planets explode in slow motion—originated as a student prototype focused on ambiance and inevitability.  [00:09:00] Building a Space Game Without Combat: Alex wanted to make a space exploration game without combat, inspired by Apollo 13 and 2001: A Space Odyssey. The idea was pure exploration—“not to conquer, just to understand.”  [00:10:30] How ‘Outer Wilds’ Was Almost a Roguelike Originally envisioned as a roguelike with randomized elements, Outer Wilds shifted to a fixed solar system with a time loop to better serve its story and design goals. [00:08:00] Zelda, Myst, and the Indie Inspirations Behind Outer Wilds: Beachum references Zelda, Myst, and Antichamber as key influences. The design philosophy emphasized knowledge as power, like discovering rules you could’ve used all along. [00:53:00] The Ship Log: Making Mystery Manageable: Alex explains the design of the ship log, which breaks the story into four “curiosity webs” so players can uncover the mystery in any order. A masterclass in open-world narrative structure. [00:39:00] From Stop Motion to Indie Stardom: Alex recounts how his childhood love of stop-motion and magic tricks evolved into a passion for visual storytelling and game design, eventually leading to Outer Wilds. [00:42:30] Working with Family: Sibling Storytelling: Alex collaborated with his sister Kelsey Beachum, the writer of Outer Wilds, on the narrative. Their sibling dynamic added cohesion to the game’s emotional and story depth.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

In this inspiring episode of The Fourth Curtain, we sit down with Sandi Montaño, a self-taught modding phenom who went from stay-at-home dad to one of the most downloaded indie creators in the gaming world. With over 31 million downloads of his content for games like ARK: Survival Ascended and Hogwarts Legacy, Sandi proves you don’t need a degree—or even a formal background in game development—to make a major impact.If you’re a game developer, modder, or creative looking to break into the industry—this is a must-listen.What started as a project to entertain his daughter has turned into a successful business. We discuss Blender, community needs and geometric growth this week![00:00:40] Modding During Nap TimeSandi shares how he taught himself game modding using textbooks during his daughter’s daily naps—no school, no YouTube, just pure grit.[00:02:15] 31 Million Downloads & CountingAlex and Aaron react to the jaw-dropping number of downloads Sandi has achieved—and how it all started as a creative project with his daughter.[00:10:00] How a Simple Structure Became a BusinessSandi explains how he began creating ARK mods specifically for his daughter, which unexpectedly turned into a full-time business.[00:17:45] Modding Hogwarts Legacy with SQLSandi talks about stepping into Hogwarts Legacy modding and the unexpected challenge of learning SQL to build new features.[00:24:40] How He Tests New Ideas (The Smart Way)Sandi walks through his efficient system of prototyping floor and wall structures, using community feedback to determine what becomes a premium mod.[00:29:10] Modding for Relaxation—and RevenueSandi reflects on how modding became both his creative outlet and a surprisingly profitable business, even allowing him to hire help.[00:35:15] Explaining Your Job as a ModderHe shares how surreal it was when his barber turned out to be a fan using his mods—and the tricky task of explaining his job to others.[00:46:00] Advice for Aspiring ModdersSandi encourages anyone curious about modding to just get started—highlighting persistence, experimentation, and community feedback as key ingredients to success.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest is Exploding Kitten's Elan Lee. Starting with animating breath for the film Titanic, he went on to create the world's first alternate reality game, The Beast, at Microsoft. Later he gamified Nine Inch Nails and voter registration and went on to launch the most successful Kickstarter ever for Exploding Kittens, redefining family game night. This episode features great stories and a world exclusive product announcement - this week! [00:06:30] From ILM to XboxElan shares his early work on Titanic and Star Wars, including hand-animating breath and neck seams for Jar Jar Binks—yes, really.[00:18:30] The Xbox Origin StoryElan recounts joining Microsoft during the secretive beginnings of Xbox and working with gaming legend Jordan Weisman on the launch lineup.[00:30:45] Creating the First ARG with SpielbergHow AI: Artificial Intelligence inspired Elan to pioneer alternate reality games, turning storytelling into an interactive experience.[00:35:00] Nine Inch Nails and “The Game That Calls You”Partnering with Trent Reznor, Elan built an ARG that included thermochromic CD ink, cryptic websites, and secret concerts.[00:41:30] The Clothing Line That Taught U.S. HistoryA secret-encoded T-shirt line that secretly retold the story of the American Revolution—gamified fashion meets education.[00:49:00] Why Exploding Kittens HappenedAfter stepping away from screens, Elan turned to physical games and launched Exploding Kittens, which raised $9 million on Kickstarter.[00:54:45] Inside the Chaos of Fulfilling 700,000 OrdersHow Elan went from a 200-copy side project to full-scale game production, leaning on friends (and Cards Against Humanity) to survive.[01:01:30] Teasing the New Exploding Kittens Board GameElan reveals an exclusive about a brand-new 3D board game version of Exploding Kittens coming soon—with a mechanic that took two years to perfect.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

This week's guest is Jenova Chen, creator of Journey, Sky: Children of the Light and other games. A BAFTA winner, he has strong opinions about morality in games and the value of positivity. We discuss the unique way he starts games, GDC's value and being the opposite of GTA - this week![00:00:00] Music as the Highest Resolution Emotional MediumJenova Chen explains why he believes music is the most powerful emotional communication tool, comparing it to pixel art and poetry.[00:08:00] The Journey of thatgamecompany & Raising $160MJenova shares how Thatgamecompany evolved from a student project to a studio that raised $160 million in venture capital.[00:14:00] Growing Up in Shanghai & Discovering GamingJenova reflects on his childhood in China, his parents' skepticism of video games, and how he discovered his passion for interactive media.[00:28:00] Pitching a Game at USC & The Origins of thatgamecompanyJenova recalls how he pitched a student game to secure funding, which eventually led to the founding of thatgamecompany.[00:32:00] Creating Games as Art & The Success of CloudThe unexpected viral success of Cloud and how it convinced Jenova that video games could be a respected artistic medium.[00:41:00] How Jenova Chen Designs Games: Starting with EmotionJenova describes his creative process, starting with imagery and music to establish the emotional tone before designing mechanics.[00:51:00] Comedy & Romance in Games: A Missed OpportunityJenova discusses how certain film genres—like romantic comedies—are underrepresented in gaming and how they could become successful.[00:58:00] Designing the Emotional Journey in JourneyHow Journey’s climactic moment was carefully crafted by contrasting moments of struggle with a powerful sense of freedom.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Dive into the compelling world of storytelling with acclaimed author Alex Irvine, known for his immersive contributions to Marvel games, graphic novels, and groundbreaking Alternate Reality Games (ARGs) like I Love Bees. In this episode, Alex shares his insights on creativity, the delicate balance between talent, persistence, and luck, and the intricate art of narrative design across various media formats. From discussing the unique challenges of writing for expansive universes like Marvel's multiverse to recalling his first forays into writing, Alex reveals the true secret ingredient to success. Packed with engaging anecdotes and wisdom, this conversation will captivate aspiring creators, gamers, and narrative enthusiasts alike.Episode Highlights:[00:00] Alex Irvine shares essential advice on becoming a successful writer: "Talent, persistence, luck—pick two."[09:00] Discussing how storytelling integrates with gameplay mechanics, using Marvel Rivals as a case study.[13:00] Behind-the-scenes insight into early Marvel game universe-building attempts, and how ambitious projects like a Marvel gaming universe unfold.[14:00] Crafting "time-stream entanglement" as a narrative device for multiverse stories in Marvel Rivals.[22:00] Childhood inspiration from playing Dungeons & Dragons, storytelling roots, and writing early poetry.[35:00] Persistence in publishing his first novel, A Scattering of Jades, after years of setbacks.[45:00] The exhilarating chaos of writing ARG puzzles and player reactions for I Love Bees.[56:00] Alex reflects on the collaborative process of writing comics and the delicate balance between writer and artist.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

This week's guest is Halo and Destiny's Joe Staten. Beginning as a farmhand, he went on to lead teams in the Halo franchise, be on the core team for Destiny, write a NYT bestselling novel and work with the great Peter Jackson. Now looking for his next role, we discuss how Bungie was like a family business, the most important mysteries and creativity and risk - this week!Episode Highlights – Joseph Staten on The Fourth Curtain Podcast🎙️ Guest: Joseph Staten – Writer, Cinematics Director, Creative Director, NYT Bestselling Author, Voice Actor, and former Halo/Destiny dev.07:50 – Introduction – Alex and Aaron welcome Joseph Staten and reminisce about their early days working together.09:05 – Joseph’s Bungie Origins – How Alex took a chance on Joe and changed his career trajectory.10:45 – From Theater to Game Development – Joe’s academic path from Northwestern University and how it shaped his approach to storytelling.14:15 – Wine, Farm Work, and Video Games – How working at a family vineyard led to playing Myth and ultimately a job interview at Bungie.15:22 – The Wild Flight to Bungie – Joe’s harrowing experience on ATA Airlines en route to his Bungie interview.18:36 – Lessons from a Non-Traditional Career Path – Why diverse backgrounds create stronger game developers.21:30 – The Importance of Curiosity and Hustle – How a self-starter mindset helped Joe navigate the game industry.28:34 – The Journey to Creative Director – How Joe transitioned from Bungie’s publishing team to leading game development.33:24 – Hard Lessons in Leadership – Learning to communicate effectively and navigate failure as a team leader.37:58 – Building Trust in Game Development – Why trust is the foundation of every successful project.40:06 – Playing Halo as a Fan – Joe’s experience playing Halo games he didn’t work on, starting with Halo: Reach.46:03 – ODST’s Development Challenges – How Joe and Paul Bertone led a small team to ship Halo 3: ODST under intense constraints.50:40 – Difficult Decisions in Game Development – The toughest calls made during ODST and Halo Infinite.52:30 – The Scale of Halo Infinite – Managing 800+ developers and the challenges of finishing a large-scale game.56:22 – Why Aren’t There More Marines? – A small but impactful design decision in Halo Infinite.58:26 – The Future of AAA Games – Joe’s thoughts on the shifting industry landscape and what’s next for game dev.1:05:19 – Iteration is Key to Success – Why persistence and iteration define the best games.1:06:41 – Writing Halo: Contact Harvest – The experience of writing a New York Times bestseller while develThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

This week's guest is a founder of Games Workshop, publisher of White Dwarf magazine, creator of the Fighting Fantasy Books and Executive Chair of Eidos Interactive Sir Ian Livingstone. This Knight of the British Empire started a business while living in a van, prevailed through a Satanic panic about his Fighting books, saw the promise of a certain Tomb Raider and birthed a mass media entertainment phenomenon. Now using games for education, we talk getting bonkers exclusives, the 3 G's of gamedev and more - this week!🎙️ The Fourth Curtain – S3 Ep01: Sir Ian Livingstone 🎲[00:00:00] – Living in a Van to Build a Games Empire 🚐Ian shares how he and his co-founder lived in a van outside a squash club while starting Games Workshop.[00:08:00] – GenCon, Early Game Distribution & Meeting Gygax 🎲Traveling to GenCon, discovering Dungeons & Dragons, and securing the European distribution rights for TSR.[00:18:00] – Building Games Workshop & Warhammer’s Rise 🏰The journey from selling board games to launching Warhammer and revolutionizing tabletop gaming.[00:26:00] – Fighting Fantasy & Interactive Storytelling 📖How Fighting Fantasy books became a global phenomenon and pioneered branching narratives in gaming.[00:38:00] – Eidos & The Birth of Tomb Raider 🎮The story behind discovering Tomb Raider during due diligence and its meteoric rise in gaming and pop culture.[00:49:00] – The Business of Games & Investing in Innovation 💰Ian’s philosophy on game design, the importance of IP ownership, and why gameplay always comes first.[01:04:00] – Where the Games Industry is Heading 🚀Thoughts on the evolution of games, emerging technologies, and the future of innovation in gaming.[01:11:00] – Closing Thoughts & A Look Ahead 🔮Ian shares insights on the importance of creativity, the future of interactive media, and what’s next for him.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

In this week's episode we recap some of the best moments from Season 2, with John Romero on hits and misses, how Peter Molyneux makes a game, Ed Fries on Xbox's Valentines Day massacre, Warren Spector on how playstyle is everything and much more! 🎮 The Fourth Curtain – S2 Best Of Highlights[00:00:00] – Season 2 Recap & Patreon Launch 🎉Alex and Aaron reflect on Season 2, announce the new Patreon, and tease upcoming guests.[00:08:00] – John Romero’s First Game 👾John shares how he programmed his first game on a mainframe in 1979 and discovered Colossal Cave Adventure.[00:26:00] – Mike Wilson & The Wild West of Publishing 🤠Mike tells stories from GT Interactive, including publishing DOOM and the infamous Fabio Screensaver.[00:38:00] – Game Delays & Business Realities ⏳Industry veterans discuss the tough decisions behind delaying games and the shift from retail to digital.[00:49:00] – Mitch Lasky on Venture Capital & Gaming 💰Mitch talks about investing in Instagram, Twitter, Uber, Snapchat, Riot Games, and Discord.[01:04:00] – The Xbox Origin Story – The Valentine's Day Massacre 🎮Ed Fries recounts the high-stakes meeting where Microsoft approved the original Xbox.[01:27:00] – Jesse Schell Predicts AI in Games 🤖Jesse discusses AI-driven NPCs, procedural storytelling, and the future of interactive experiences.[01:32:00] – AI’s Impact on Game Development & Publishing ⚙️Frank Gibeau and others explore AI’s role in monetization, engagement, and player behavior.[01:43:00] – Season 3 Tease & Farewell 🎭A sneak peek at upcoming guests, including Sir Ian Livingstone, and an invitation to join the Patreon.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505