The Fourth Curtain

VP of Amazon Games Christoph Hartmann is our guest. At BMG he helped launch GTA and went on to co-found 2K Games and publish NBA 2K, Civilization, Bioshock and Borderlands. We discuss the upcoming King of Meat, a very fresh take on how AI can help gamedev and more - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Intro: Christoph Hartmann[00:20:32] From Music to Games: Christoph’s First Break at BMGChristoph shares how his early exposure to computers led to an internship at BMG Interactive — a move that launched his career from music into video games[00:28:03] Learning from Sam: Building for the FutureChristoph reflects on learning from his leaders and how to run a company with one eye on the horizon — always anticipating industry shifts to stay ahead.[00:31:32] Founding 2K Games: Building a Creative PowerhouseHe talks about the creation of 2K Games and how the studio became home to major franchises like BioShock and Borderlands.[00:40:10] Captain Kirk, Not Spock: Leading OvernightChristoph shares how he was suddenly handed leadership responsibilities, earning the nickname “Captain Kirk” while his second-in-command was called “Spock.” He jokes, “I’m not Spock,” but explains what it taught him about command and trust.[00:42:12] Spotting Winners: How Christoph Evaluates StudiosHe breaks down what he looks for when assessing game studios — from creative spark to execution — and when it’s the right time to buy in or step back.[00:49:12] Embracing AI: Innovation, Adaptation, and OpportunityChristoph discusses how new technology, including AI, could actually improve development — making gameplay more adaptive and lowering production costs.[00:59:34] Joining Amazon Games: Betting on Live Service FuturesAfter a moment of career reflection, Christoph joined Amazon to explore live service games — a model he believes represents the future of the industry. He shares why he finds Amazon’s culture both exciting and rewarding.[01:04:15] Leading Smart Teams: Managing a Crew of “Spocks”At Amazon, Christoph leads teams full of brilliant problem-solvers — his “Spocks.” He explains how he adapts his leadership to align incentives, empower experts, and keep learning as a leader.[01:11:57] Bridging Creativity and Business: The In-Between RoleChristoph describes himself as the bridge between creative vision and business strategy, uniting both worlds to make better games. He also teases Amazon’s upcoming project, King of Meat.[01:16:56] Outro: Wrapping Up and Reflecting on AI’s Power DemandAlex and Aaron close out the episode, reflecting on Christoph’s insights and joking about the future of AI — and the nuclear power plants we might need to keep it all running.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

We're thrilled to speak with Trip Hawkins, founder and CEO EA, 3DO, Digital Chocolate and more. From childhood football strategy, to WWIII Sims, he grew to make a company of electronic artists who made legendary games. Calming Steve Jobs, hacking consoles and many firsts - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Celebrating 100 Episodes and a Wild Week for EA Alex and Aaron mark The Fourth Curtain’s 100th episode and react to the breaking news that Electronic Arts is being taken private.[00:02:31] What Happens When a Giant Like EA Gets Bought? The hosts break down what a private-equity acquisition really means for EA, from stock prices to internal culture shifts.[00:05:10] Founding Electronic Arts: Trip’s Vision for Creative Freedom Trip shares how he built EA around empowering developers and treating them like rock stars — a radical idea in the early ’80s.[00:17:44] The Apple Years: Working Under Steve Jobs Trip reflects on his early days at Apple, what he learned from Steve Jobs, and how that experience shaped his entrepreneurial mindset.[00:33:28] Madden, Licensing, and Building a Sports Empire Trip talks about the birth of Madden NFL, navigating licensing deals, and why the franchise became a cornerstone of EA’s success.[00:48:56] The 3DO Era: Ambition, Innovation, and Hard Lessons He opens up about the 3DO console — what went wrong, what it taught him, and how to recover when innovation gets ahead of its time.[01:04:37] The Future of Games and Trip’s Next Chapter Trip closes by sharing his outlook on AI, creativity, and what he’s building next after a lifetime of shaping the games industry.[01:20:14] Trip Hawkins on Failure, Resilience, and ReinventionTrip opens up about the three “acts” of his life — the rise, the fall, and learning to rebuild after hitting rock bottom.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

It's a one-two move with Sucker Punch's Chris Zimmerman and Brian Fleming. Now shipping Ghost of Yotei, they tell us about leaving Microsoft for Sony and becoming a gamedev powerhouse. Tales of exact pitches and being great instead of good - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Intro: Chris Zimmerman & Brian Fleming of Sucker Punch ProductionsAn introduction to Chris and Brian, co-founders of Sucker Punch Productions (Sly Cooper, Infamous, Ghost of Tsushima).[00:08:23] “Name it Anything But Sucker Punch”Brian and Chris talk about the founding of Sucker Punch and how the studio got its name. [00:14:06] Early Days at MicrosoftBrian and Chris reminisce on learning how to run a business, trial and error, and early days at Microsoft.[00:21:04] Growing Up in the “Right” PlaceBrian and Chris trade stories of growing up and working in tech in the early 90s. [00:27:54] Leaving Microsoft and Starting Sucker PunchChris and Brian talk about leaving Microsoft, building a team from scratch, making their first games, and landing a deal with Ubisoft.[00:37:17] The Silver LiningAfter a release riddled with mistakes, the team lands a first party deal for their next game series, Sly Cooper. [00:47:28] Was Sony the Right Choice?Chris and Brian discuss the advantage of having a stable, long-term relationship with your publisher and building trust.[00:51:19] How Ghost of Tsushima StartedFrom an alpha that never got approval, to developing one of the fastest-selling first-party PlayStation titles and a BAFTA-winning game.[01:01:50] The Studio Now vs. Then and COVID’s ImpactReleasing 3 months into the COVID-19 pandemic, Chris and Brian review how they adjusted their plans and how the studio has evolved over time.[1:10:27] Outro: Closing RemarksSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

We get an inside look this week from Paul Sage, founder and CEO of Ruckus Games. Inspired by Ultima 3, he worked his way up to lead designer of Ultima Online, to Borderlands 3 and more. Now working on a new project at Ruckus, we talk LEDs to 2600, Multima and when players outsmart you - this week! This week's episode contains mentions of suicide. Viewer discretion is advised.Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Intro: Meet Paul Sage[00:09:15] Founding Ruckus Games: Origins of the Studio and the NamePaul shares how Ruckus Games was formed, why the name was chosen, and the vision that inspired its creation.[00:15:27] Surviving in Games: Do You Really Need a Hit?A candid discussion about the brutal economics of game development, why hits matter, and whether smaller successes can still keep a studio alive.[00:17:30] From Borderlands to Ruckus: Building a Team During a PandemicPaul reflects on bringing together the original Borderlands crew, the challenges of forming a studio during COVID, and why this team made sense.[00:21:04] Growing Up in Texas: Consoles, Coding, and Falling in Love with GamesFrom playing on a Merlin to coding in BASIC, Paul’s early years in Texas shaped his passion for computers, games, and Ultima Online.[00:34:50] From QA Tester to Designer: Breaking Into the IndustryThanks to a chance connection, Paul lands his first QA role — and through long nights and relentless work, makes his way onto the Ultima Online design team[00:50:26] Tabula Rasa: Hard Lessons and E3’s All-Time LowPaul opens up about leading Tabula Rasa, the struggles of working with ideas he didn’t believe in, and the infamous E3 moment that nearly broke the team.[00:59:37] Bethesda and Beyond: Learning Structure and Gaining ConfidenceAfter leaving Tabula Rasa, Paul joins Bethesda and ZeniMax Online, where strong processes and leadership lessons gave him the confidence to launch his own studio, Ruckus Games.[01:02:15] Borderlands 3 and Beyond: Finding Joy and Fixing a Broken IndustryPaul looks back on the success of Borderlands 3, why the industry needs change, and how Ruckus Games is built on lessons learned to create a healthier path forward.[1:09:04] Outro: Closing RemarksSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

David Gardner joins us this week with tales of the early days of videogames. A teenage tech prodigy, he was employee #11 at EA, ran Atari and is now a games VC. We talk Hawkins distortion fields, Atari sandwiches and when EA was hip - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Intro: Meet David GardnerAn introduction to David Gardner’s journey in games, from his early days to becoming a leader at Electronic Arts and later a venture capital investor.[00:07:30] Breaking into Games: From Atari to EA to AtariDavid Gardner shares an overview of his journey, from his early Atari days to becoming a key figure at Electronic Arts, to VC-ing and beyond. He also shares tips and tricks about being a "super connector" and the best way to create a network.[00:13:55] Obsessed with Computers: The Poster Child with an Apple IIDavid shares how he got started with games, from knocking on doors at 12 years old, to being on first-name basis with the Atari team & being snuck into conventions.[00:22:19] The Start of EA: Hired at 17 and Flown to CaliforniaDavid talks about getting hired by EA, setting up international trade for the company, and going on his first trip to London that changed his life. They also discuss the 10,000 hours rule and the role of education in growing up. [00:33:04] EA's Beginnings: Forging a Path David tells stories from EA’s early expansion, including culture, leadership, and publishing strategies that shaped the modern industry.[00:42:05] Building EA's UK Branch: Translating Business Practices InternationallyBehind-the-scenes tales of creating EA's international branches, setting trends in the packaging and selling of games, and EA's growth over 20 years. [00:49:07] The Kool-Aid from the Past: Starting Anew and Going Back HomeDavid touches on the culture shock of going back to the US, navigating company politics, and why he ultimately left for the UK again. They discuss leaving EA and his old life behind, finding your place, and feeling valued.[00:56:54] Working at Atari: The Wake Up CallDavid unpacks the challenges at Atari and the economics of games across decades, from boxed products to digital distribution & free-to-play. He also discusses his start in investing.[1:05:03] From Executive to Investor: Founding London Venture PartnersThe journey from publishing to investing and venture capital, and why David co-founded LVP to back innovative game studios and companies (Unity, Playfish, Supercell, and more).[1:12:18] Outro: Closing RemarksSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

This week we talk with the founder of the Indie Megabooth and games VC Kelly Wallick. Through her indie beginnings to her investing portfolio, community has always been the core. We discuss the Indie Game Festival, spotting hits and making a great pitch deck - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Founding the Indie MEGABOOTH: Building a Platform for Indie GamesKelly shares how she launched the Indie MEGABOOTH, creating a showcase that gave indie developers global visibility at major conventions.[00:06:00] From Chemistry to Gaming: Kelly’s Unlikely Career PathDiscover how Kelly went from studying chemistry and working in science to becoming a leader in the indie game community.[00:13:00] The Rise of Indie Games: How Developers Changed the IndustryKelly reflects on the cultural and creative shift that indie games sparked, reshaping how players and publishers view the medium.[00:20:00] Behind the Scenes of PAX: Scaling Indie Showcases WorldwideLearn how the Indie MEGABOOTH expanded into a global phenomenon, partnering with PAX and other major events to spotlight independent creators.[00:32:00] Challenges of Running Indie MEGABOOTH: Funding, Burnout, and SurvivalKelly opens up about the financial and emotional hurdles of sustaining a community-driven organization in the fast-changing games industry.[00:41:00] Navigating COVID-19: Shutting Down Events and Supporting DevelopersHear how the pandemic forced Indie MEGABOOTH to shut down operations—and how Kelly and her team worked to support struggling developers.[00:50:00] Transitioning to Venture Capital: Kelly’s New Role in Games FundingKelly explains how she moved into VC work, investing in early-stage game companies and helping founders grow their visions.[01:00:00] Advice for Indie Creators: Community, Resilience, and Staying AuthenticKelly offers advice for new developers—emphasizing collaboration, sustainable practices, and why staying true to your creative voice matters most.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest is Feargus Urquhart, founder and CEO of Obsidian, the premier maker of videogame RPGs. Having mastered 27 second pizzas he moved to testing and production of huge titles like KOTOR, Baldur's Gate and Fallout. We discuss snatching victory from the jaws of defeat with Pillars of Eternity, and when a feature is real - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Founding Obsidian Entertainment: From Black Isle to New BeginningsFeargus shares how he and his former Black Isle colleagues launched Obsidian in 2003, determined to create deep RPG experiences despite industry headwinds.[00:05:00] The Fallout Series Legacy: Storytelling That Stands the Test of TimeFeargus reflects on his work with Fallout and how its blend of player choice, dark humor, and moral complexity still influences RPG design today.[00:12:00] Navigating Publisher Deals: Lessons from the Early Obsidian YearsHear how Obsidian survived rocky publisher relationships, including near cancellations, and what the team learned about creative control and financial survival.[00:21:00] Making Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II Under Deadline PressureFeargus explains how the team delivered KOTOR II in just 14 months—and the trade-offs required to ship under tight LucasArts deadlines.[00:31:00] From Pillars of Eternity to Deadfire: Reviving the Isometric RPGDiscover how Kickstarter and a passionate fan base brought Pillars of Eternity to life, sparking a renaissance for classic-style RPGs.[00:43:00] The Microsoft Acquisition: Joining Xbox Game StudiosFeargus discusses Obsidian’s 2018 acquisition by Microsoft, what it meant for studio stability, and how it opened doors for ambitious projects.[00:50:00] Creating The Outer Worlds: Satire, Choice, and Sci-Fi ExplorationLearn how Obsidian blended sharp humor, branching narratives, and vibrant worlds to craft The Outer Worlds, a modern hit with old-school sensibilities.[01:03:00] Advice for Aspiring Game Developers: Build Skills and Networks EarlyFeargus offers guidance for breaking into the industry—emphasizing collaboration, flexibility, and learning from every project.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guests are Rand and Robyn Miller, founders of Cyan (World) and creators of the smash game Myst. From humble beginnings in Hypercard kids' games, they made the 3D puzzle experience Myst which changed the world of adventure games. We discuss GRR Martin stories, line art to 3D and more - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] How Myst Was Made: The Birth of a Gaming Landmark Robyn and Rand Miller reflect on the early days of Cyan and how they created Myst—a genre-defining game that shaped the future of narrative and puzzle design.[00:07:00] Making Games on a Mac Plus: Myst’s Surprising Development Setup The brothers reveal how Myst was developed using off-the-shelf consumer hardware—proving that groundbreaking games can come from minimal setups.[00:14:00] The Myst Trailer That Changed Everything: A Publisher’s Big Bet Learn how a 90-second trailer helped convince publishers to take a chance on Myst, setting off a chain of events that would make it the best-selling PC game of the decade.[00:19:00] Myst’s Visual Style: Why Pre-Rendered Worlds Still Hold Up Robyn explains the creative reasons behind Myst's iconic static imagery—and why it still resonates with players even in an era of real-time 3D.[00:26:00] How Riven Raised the Bar: Bigger Worlds, Bolder Vision Rand discusses the development of Riven, the technical leaps it required, and how it built on Myst to deliver a more expansive, immersive player experience.[00:40:00] Why the Myst Brothers Left the Game Industry—and What Brought Them Back After the height of Myst and Riven, Robyn and Rand took separate paths. They share what pulled them away from games—and what inspired their return decades later.[00:47:00] Remaking Riven in Real-Time 3D: Challenges and Ambitions Cyan is rebuilding Riven from the ground up. Hear how today’s tools and player expectations are reshaping one of gaming’s most beloved worlds.[01:04:00] Advice for Indie Game Creators: Start Small, Stay Honest Robyn and Rand offer hard-won advice to new game developers: why simplicity, focus, and authenticity are the keys to building memorable experiences.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Seth Sivak, VP Development for World of Warcraft at Blizzard and former founder of Proletariat, dives into the gaming world, sharing his insights on why games often fail to find their audience. He emphasizes the importance of building hype pre-launch and discusses securing $20M for Spellbreak. Seth advocates for early testing over polish, revealing how releasing a graybox version can lead to valuable player feedback. His journey from Zynga to Proletariat showcases the evolution of game development and the challenges of marketing in a competitive landscape.

Our guest this week is Mac Reynolds, CEO and co-founder of Night Street Games, making the PvP shooter Last Flag. As manager of the band, Imagine Dragons, he learned how to find magic from the grind and now applies that to a videogame. We discuss Eagle Scouts, learning to advocate and CTF - this week! Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Realizing How Hard It Is to Make a Game Mac shares how his early assumptions about game development were quickly shattered after launching Night Street Games.[00:08:00] From Managing Imagine Dragons to Founding a Game Studio Learn how Mac transitioned from music manager to game studio co-founder with his brother Dan Reynolds, lead singer of Imagine Dragons.[00:11:00] Building Night Street Games: A True Family Venture Mac discusses starting Night Street Games, working with Dan, and their love for classic developers like LucasArts and Sierra.[00:17:00] Designing Last Flag: A New Take on Capture the Flag Hear how Last Flag evolved from a simple concept into a competitive third-person multiplayer game inspired by hide-and-seek.[00:21:00] Innovative Gameplay: Radar Towers, Seeker Drones & Strategy Mac breaks down the unique mechanics that make Last Flag stand out—like territory control and high-stakes flag defense.[00:29:00] Leaving Law for Creativity and Founding a Studio From law school to the Grammy Awards to launching a game studio, Mac reflects on choosing passion over a traditional career path.[00:44:00] Building a Remote, Scalable Game Team from Scratch He explains how Night Street scaled to over 50 people, balancing internal hires with tightly integrated outsourcing.[00:56:00] Comparing Music & Games: Creativity, Community & Joy Mac reflects on what games and music have in common—creation, community, and the magic of bringing people joy.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505