The Fourth Curtain

Our guest this week is the poster boy for educational software going massively mainstream, Phillip Bouchard. Starting in the world of mainframes he created a worldwide hit on Apple II and beyond. We talk Apple getting kickstarted and science for fun and profit this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] The Legacy of The Oregon Trail: Still Remembered 40 Years Later Philip reflects on the surprising longevity of The Oregon Trail, a game still remembered decades after its release and played by new generations.[00:08:00] Dysentery and Game Design: Origins of a Legendary Game Over Screen Discover how the infamous “You have died of dysentery” message became part of the 1985 version—and why it wasn’t in the original 1971 text-only release.[00:13:00] Building the Classic Version: Small Team, Big Impact Learn how a five-person team crafted the Apple II version that defined The Oregon Trail, combining educational goals with entertaining gameplay.[00:20:00] From Text to Graphics: A Full Redesign for Apple II Philip explains how the 1985 version was a complete rebuild with new code, visual assets, and expanded simulations—leaving the original codebase behind.[00:25:00] State-Owned Software: The Story of MEC and Minnesota’s Role Explore how Minnesota’s state-funded organization MEC developed and distributed The Oregon Trail, influencing early educational software nationwide.[00:36:00] Instant School Success: How Teacher Demand Took Over After initially launching only in the home market, teacher demand led to widespread adoption of The Oregon Trail in classrooms across North America.[00:41:00] Life After Oregon Trail: From Munchers to Broderbund Philip talks about his post-Oregon Trail career, including work on the Munchers series and his time at Broderbund and McGraw-Hill.[00:45:00] Writing, AI Art, and Retirement: Philip’s Current Creative Life Now retired, Philip shares his passion for writing science books, experimenting with AI art, and staying curious across new creative hobbies.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is Adam Boyes, longtime co-CEO of Iron Galaxy and now founder of Vivrato. From Killer Instinct to The Last of Us Part I, he’s helped bring major games to life and now supports devs launching their own. We discuss putting in raunchy stuff, nemawashi and his magic deck of challenges - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] "Shipping Will Burn You": Why Making Games Is the Best Teacher Adam kicks off with advice for aspiring devs: build, release, and learn from failure—because real growth comes from shipping games, not just dreaming them.[00:08:00] From Farm Town to QA: Adam’s Unlikely Start at EA Sports Hear how Adam landed his first job in games testing NBA Live 97 and FIFA 98, despite growing up in rural Canada with dreams of working on NHL games.[00:15:00] Modding Roots and BBS Culture: The Birth of a Developer Adam shares how his love for PC modding and running a Jurassic Park–themed BBS shaped his curiosity and multi-discipline approach to game development.[00:27:00] The Wild Days at Midway: Slugfest, Blitz & Studio Chaos From canceled games to f-bomb-filled meetings, Adam reflects on Midway’s raw, chaotic culture—and how it helped him grow as a producer and leader.[00:34:00] “Nemo Washi”: Building Consensus Like a Japanese Producer Adam explains the Japanese business concept of Nemo Washi, and how it shaped his leadership style—building trust, alignment, and resource sharing across teams.[00:44:00] Smashing Red Tape at PlayStation: Killing the Concept Submission Process At Sony, Adam eliminated outdated approval systems and championed indie access, unlocking millions in dev revenue and streamlining platform entry.[00:50:00] Iron Galaxy’s Secret Sauce: Co-Development with the Best in the Biz Adam discusses co-developing Skyrim, Diablo III, The Last of Us Part I, and Fortnite—and how Iron Galaxy became one of the industry’s most trusted studios.[00:56:00] Launching Vivrato: Solving the Game Industry’s Hardest Problems Now at Vivrato, Adam's mission is to help devs at all levels—focusing on industry-wide challenges with a personalized, high-impact advisory approach.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Rémi Racine is the founder & CEO of Behaviour Interactive—the studio behind Dead by Daylight and dozens of other titles. A veteran of the games industry for over 25 years, Rémi has helped shape not just iconic games but also the entire Canadian game development landscape - this week! 00:02:10 — From Montreal to Mainstream: Remi’s first game at age 24Discover how Remi’s early passion project turned into a pioneering move in Canadian game development.00:08:45 — The Birth of Behaviour InteractiveLearn how Remi spun off from Multimedia Interactive to create a now-iconic game studio.00:14:30 — Behind the Scenes of Dead by DaylightRemi discusses the strategy, surprises, and evolution of Behaviour’s biggest hit.00:19:55 — How to Keep a Game Studio IndependentA rare look at the decisions and principles that kept Behaviour from being acquired.00:27:12 — The Reality of Licensing vs. Original IPGet Remi’s take on the balance between creative control and commercial viability.00:34:00 — What Triple-A Studios Get WrongInsights from Behaviour’s CEO on the cracks in big-budget game development.00:41:10 — Advice for Young Game DevelopersRemi shares the practical skills and mindset that aspiring devs should master.00:49:55 — His Bold Bet on Service-Based GamesExplore why Remi believes in games as ongoing services—and what makes that sustainable.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Nolan North has brought to life your favorite videogame characters with his voice! From Uncharted's Nathan Drake and Assassin's Creed's Desmond Miles, to scores of others, he is a top talent in the industry. We discuss the freedom of preparation and being broke but happy - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] From Soap Operas to Sound Booths: Nolan North’s Unexpected VO Journey Nolan shares how a friend encouraged him to pivot from acting on Port Charles to voice acting—kicking off a prolific video game career.[00:06:00] Recording Anywhere: How Remote VO Work Changed the Industry Nolan explains how post-pandemic voiceover work allows actors to record high-quality audio from home studios across the country.[00:12:00] Childhood Impressions and Baseball Dreams Hear how Nolan’s early love for mimicking voices and playing sports shaped his journey before he ever touched a microphone.[00:20:00] Breaking In with $750 and a Yell Nolan recalls his first video game gig, yelling lines for just $750—and how that led to a reputation as a go-to, reliable voice actor.[00:26:00] Bringing Nathan Drake to Life with Performance Capture Nolan details how Uncharted rehearsals, ad-libbing, and trust from Amy Hennig made the character of Nathan Drake feel human and iconic.[00:33:00] Going Beyond the Voice: Crafting Penguin, Joker & More Nolan dives into his diverse range—from his gruff Penguin in Arkham to an offbeat version of the Joker and even made-up languages.[00:47:00] Voice Acting Wisdom: It's Not Rejection, It’s Fit He reflects on casting experiences and why actors should focus on authenticity over perfection—it’s about the right fit, not the best read.[01:00:00] The Power of Preparation & Professionalism in Voice Work Nolan stresses the importance of showing up early, knowing your lines, and respecting the team—success is in the discipline.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest John Blackburn is a founder and CEO of Avalanche Software, makers of hundreds of games for dozens of platforms, such as Hogwarts Legacy and Disney Infinity. He has tales of when games paid royalties and having to take a chance. We discuss how to talk to execs and being true but not canon - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Mortal Kombat Funded Avalanche’s Origins John Blackburn reveals how Avalanche Studios was launched thanks to Mortal Kombat Trilogy royalties—literally bankrolling the studio's earliest days.[00:13:00] Salt Lake City: An Underrated Game Dev Hotspot John shares the rich game development legacy of Salt Lake City, from the roots of Sculptured Software and Access Software to Avalanche and beyond.[00:21:00] Working on Mortal Kombat at Sculptured Software John discusses his first big project as a junior programmer, working on Mortal Kombat for Super Nintendo—with access to an arcade machine right outside his office.[00:25:00] The Crazy Coincidences Behind Avalanche’s Founding Learn how a failed job offer, a chance bar conversation, and a loophole in rights ownership led to Avalanche’s first contract with Midway.[00:31:00] Mortal Kombat Trilogy: The Royalty Deal That Changed Everything Blackburn explains how the CD-based release of Mortal Kombat Trilogy and a classics reprint led to a royalty windfall that solidified the studio’s future.[00:40:00] Disney Acquires Avalanche for Platforming Expertise John recounts how Avalanche’s work on licensed platformers like Tack and the Power of Juju led to Disney acquiring the studio after seeing early progress on Chicken Little.[00:54:00] How Disney Infinity Was Born from Toy Story 3’s Toy Box Mode Infinity started as a toy-themed platform game before pivoting into the toys-to-life genre after the success of Skylanders—with the blessing of Bob Iger.[01:00:00] The Secret Behind Hogwarts Legacy: Portkey Games & Creative Freedom Blackburn shares how Portkey Games enabled Avalanche to develop an original story set in the Wizarding World—without needing to retell the Harry Potter books.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Michael Morhaime, co-founder and former president of Blizzard Entertainment, now heads Dreamhaven, aiming to empower creators. He shares insights into Blizzard’s high standards, revealing that nearly half of their projects were canceled to maintain quality. The discussion highlights Dreamhaven's values of creative freedom and innovation. Morhaime also reflects on his journey from electrical engineering to game development and the nostalgia of his first programming experiences, offering a deep dive into the evolving landscape of the gaming industry.

Our guest Bing Gordon has had a long successful run in videogames and tech. From marketing lead to Chief Creative Officer at EA, he helped shaped NASCAR, The Sims and other huge titles. We discuss pitching, two beer strategies and Speilberg's smoke test - this week!Episode Highlights[00:04:00] How Bing Gordon Helped Launch Electronic ArtsBing shares the story of co-founding EA when it was a scrappy startup in 1983, including raising $2 million in funding and being the company’s one-person marketing department. [00:07:00] Reading the Room: How Bing Predicted Game SuccessBing explains how walking into a studio could tell him whether a game would ship on time and be successful—drawing parallels to retail psychology and intuition. [00:10:00] Meeting Trip Hawkins and Dreaming of Virtual WorldsBing recounts meeting Trip Hawkins at Stanford and discussing early ideas about creating a “virtual Disneyland,” which inspired their future at EA.00:17:00] Why Bing Fell in Love with GamesHe discusses his childhood fascination with puzzles, invented games, and the dream of living multiple lives through games, likening them to the metaverse.[00:18:00] Steven Spielberg on Games vs. MoviesBing recalls Spielberg’s take on video games as a “lean-in” medium compared to passive film watching, and how body language helped refine cinematic pacing. [00:23:00] Designing the NASCAR Draft Meter to Win Over CriticsBing talks about a near failure in NASCAR Racing’s development and how adding a visual “draft meter” salvaged the game’s perception and success.[00:51:00] What Makes a Great Founder?Bing shares his top insight into investing: founders who give you an insight you've never heard before are often the most successful.[00:55:00] The Risk of Being 'Generally Right, Specifically Wrong'He explains how being close to a great idea, but missing key details, can result in failure—coining the phrase “generally right, specifically wrong.”Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Kim Swift turned a student demo into the mega-hit Portal. Previously the Head of Creative for Xbox Games Publishing, she also did level design on Left 4 Dead and was Design Director for Star Wars: Battlefront II. We discuss how to pitch, owning IP on Mars and whether or not the cake is a lie - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:21] Kim Swift’s Game Design Origin StoryKim talks about how she got into game development by modding games like Doom and Quake, which eventually led to her joining Valve right out of college.[00:04:37] The Birth of Portal: From Student Project to ValveKim explains how her DigiPen student project Narbacular Drop caught Valve’s attention and led to the creation of Portal.[00:10:50] Working With Gabe Newell and Valve’s CultureKim describes Valve’s flat hierarchy, creative freedom, and how working with Gabe Newell shaped her career.[00:14:08] Creative Constraints in Game DesignShe shares how limits and constraints actually helped drive innovation in Portal’s level design.[00:20:22] The Magic of Short Games: Why Portal Was Just RightKim reflects on why Portal was intentionally short and how the team prioritized player experience over game length.[00:25:46] From Valve to Big Tech: Her Leap Into Cloud GamingShe discusses her transition from traditional studios to roles at Amazon and Xbox, focusing on innovation in cloud gaming.[00:33:10] Leadership Advice: Trust Your Gut and Advocate for YourselfKim offers advice for aspiring leaders in tech: trust your instincts, advocate for your ideas, and know your worth.[00:42:15] Kim’s Hopes for the Future of GamesShe envisions a future where games are more inclusive, emotionally resonant, and push the boundaries of storytelling.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Christian Cantamessa began in point and click adventures before becoming lead designer and writer for Red Dead Redemption. Now CEO of Day 4 Night Studios Inc., he is also the writer and director of the film, Air. We discuss concern about GTA III, embracing the game and telling stories in games - this week![00:00:00] – From Donald Duck to GTA III: Career Whiplash Christian recalls the surreal leap from working on a Donald Duck GBA game to contributing to Grand Theft Auto III at Rockstar Games.[00:07:00] – Founding Day for Night Studios and Teaching at USC Christian shares updates on founding Day for Night Studios, collaborating with legendary composer Grant Kirkhope, and teaching screenwriting at USC.[00:15:00] – How Growing Up in Italy Shaped His Game Development Dreams Christian discusses his early life in Italy, making camcorder movies, discovering Monkey Island, and finding a love for storytelling through games.[00:27:00] – Early Struggles: Typing Code from Magazines and Hand-Me-Down Computers He shares the challenges of learning basic programming on a Commodore 16 and ZX Spectrum without formal training or abundant resources.[00:46:00] – Breaking Into Rockstar: Cold Email to Working on GTA III Christian tells the story of how a spontaneous email to DMA Design led to his move to Scotland to help finish GTA III—despite having no prior open-world experience.[00:53:00] – Designing Emergent Gameplay for GTA III He explains how Rockstar embraced unintended player behavior, turning it into a core design philosophy that shaped GTA III’s legendary sandbox style.[00:56:00] – Leading Design on Manhunt and Red Dead Redemption After GTA III, Christian became the lead designer of Manhunt and helped shape the narrative and world-building of Red Dead Redemption.[01:00:00] – The Price of Creative Passion: Burnout and Sacrifice Christian reflects on the emotional and personal cost of spending five intense years building Red Dead Redemption, and whether true greatness requires full commitment.Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Louis Castle helped invent real-time strategy games with Command and Conquer and has a BAFTA for Boom Blox. Now leading Childlike Wonder Games, we discuss casino ethics, switching to real-time and building toys - this week!Top 8 Highlights[00:00:00] – Lifelong Learning: The Key to Game Design Success Louis Castle opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of constant learning as a game designer, citing curiosity and adaptability as essential traits.[00:06:00] – Founding Westwood Studios & Creating the RTS Genre Louis reflects on co-founding Westwood Studios, the groundbreaking work on Command & Conquer, and helping define the real-time strategy genre. [00:10:00] – Game Design vs. Casino Game Ethics He explains how game design in the casino industry is more ethically regulated than video games, raising concerns about manipulation in mainstream game design. [00:17:00] – A True Multidisciplinary Game Maker Louis shares how he started as both an artist and programmer, contributing art, code, and design to early Westwood projects. [00:27:00] – Westwood’s Mission: Make Complex Games Accessible From Eye of the Beholder to Dune II, Louis discusses how Westwood focused on turning deep mechanics into real-time, accessible gameplay. [00:41:00] – Technical Wizardry: Building Custom Operating Systems Louis describes how he built custom OS-level tools and game engines to push hardware limits, including 60 FPS variable frame rate systems in the ‘80s. [00:44:00] – Childlike Wonder Games: His New Studio & GenAI Vision He announces his new studio, Childlike Wonder Games, and its mission to create strategy games that let players use generative AI to customize gameplay. [00:56:00] – The Wild Ride: Selling Westwood 4 Times Before EA Louis recounts how Westwood was acquired four times—eventually landing at EA—and how he handled all the financial and legal negotiations himself. Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Shanglan (May) LiArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505