The Fourth Curtain

Our guest is Feargus Urquhart, founder and CEO of Obsidian, the premier maker of videogame RPGs. Having mastered 27 second pizzas he moved to testing and production of huge titles like KOTOR, Baldur's Gate and Fallout. We discuss snatching victory from the jaws of defeat with Pillars of Eternity, and when a feature is real - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Founding Obsidian Entertainment: From Black Isle to New BeginningsFeargus shares how he and his former Black Isle colleagues launched Obsidian in 2003, determined to create deep RPG experiences despite industry headwinds.[00:05:00] The Fallout Series Legacy: Storytelling That Stands the Test of TimeFeargus reflects on his work with Fallout and how its blend of player choice, dark humor, and moral complexity still influences RPG design today.[00:12:00] Navigating Publisher Deals: Lessons from the Early Obsidian YearsHear how Obsidian survived rocky publisher relationships, including near cancellations, and what the team learned about creative control and financial survival.[00:21:00] Making Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II Under Deadline PressureFeargus explains how the team delivered KOTOR II in just 14 months—and the trade-offs required to ship under tight LucasArts deadlines.[00:31:00] From Pillars of Eternity to Deadfire: Reviving the Isometric RPGDiscover how Kickstarter and a passionate fan base brought Pillars of Eternity to life, sparking a renaissance for classic-style RPGs.[00:43:00] The Microsoft Acquisition: Joining Xbox Game StudiosFeargus discusses Obsidian’s 2018 acquisition by Microsoft, what it meant for studio stability, and how it opened doors for ambitious projects.[00:50:00] Creating The Outer Worlds: Satire, Choice, and Sci-Fi ExplorationLearn how Obsidian blended sharp humor, branching narratives, and vibrant worlds to craft The Outer Worlds, a modern hit with old-school sensibilities.[01:03:00] Advice for Aspiring Game Developers: Build Skills and Networks EarlyFeargus offers guidance for breaking into the industry—emphasizing collaboration, flexibility, and learning from every project.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guests are Rand and Robyn Miller, founders of Cyan (World) and creators of the smash game Myst. From humble beginnings in Hypercard kids' games, they made the 3D puzzle experience Myst which changed the world of adventure games. We discuss GRR Martin stories, line art to 3D and more - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] How Myst Was Made: The Birth of a Gaming Landmark Robyn and Rand Miller reflect on the early days of Cyan and how they created Myst—a genre-defining game that shaped the future of narrative and puzzle design.[00:07:00] Making Games on a Mac Plus: Myst’s Surprising Development Setup The brothers reveal how Myst was developed using off-the-shelf consumer hardware—proving that groundbreaking games can come from minimal setups.[00:14:00] The Myst Trailer That Changed Everything: A Publisher’s Big Bet Learn how a 90-second trailer helped convince publishers to take a chance on Myst, setting off a chain of events that would make it the best-selling PC game of the decade.[00:19:00] Myst’s Visual Style: Why Pre-Rendered Worlds Still Hold Up Robyn explains the creative reasons behind Myst's iconic static imagery—and why it still resonates with players even in an era of real-time 3D.[00:26:00] How Riven Raised the Bar: Bigger Worlds, Bolder Vision Rand discusses the development of Riven, the technical leaps it required, and how it built on Myst to deliver a more expansive, immersive player experience.[00:40:00] Why the Myst Brothers Left the Game Industry—and What Brought Them Back After the height of Myst and Riven, Robyn and Rand took separate paths. They share what pulled them away from games—and what inspired their return decades later.[00:47:00] Remaking Riven in Real-Time 3D: Challenges and Ambitions Cyan is rebuilding Riven from the ground up. Hear how today’s tools and player expectations are reshaping one of gaming’s most beloved worlds.[01:04:00] Advice for Indie Game Creators: Start Small, Stay Honest Robyn and Rand offer hard-won advice to new game developers: why simplicity, focus, and authenticity are the keys to building memorable experiences.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is Seth Sivak, VP Development for World of Warcraft at Blizzard. From early years at Zynga he became Founder and CEO of Proletariat, shipping big games like Spellbreak. We discuss being an Imagineer, the three components of creative decisions and "always be pitching" - this week! Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Why Games Fail: No Audience, No HypeSeth explains how several recent games failed not from poor quality, but because they launched without building an audience—resulting in commercial flops despite decent reviews.[00:07:00] Raising $20M for Spellbreak: Inside Proletariat’s Biggest Funding RoundHear how Seth and his team secured a major investment led by Take-Two in 2019, helping scale the studio and pave the way for Spellbreak’s development and Blizzard’s later acquisition.[00:10:00] Defining the Product Manager Role in Game DevelopmentSeth shares what it meant to be a PM at Zynga during the Facebook gaming boom—managing features like a mini-CEO and driving rapid iteration cycles across live games.[00:20:00] Hug the Sloth: A “Gold Spike” Game That Taught the BasicsLearn how a quirky internal prototype helped the team test monetization, push notifications, and Facebook login—building foundational tech for future projects.[00:25:00] Launch Ugly, Learn Fast: Why Early Testing Beats PolishSeth recalls releasing a graybox version of Spellbreak to tens of thousands of players—proving that testing gameplay early matters more than perfecting visuals.[00:45:00] Streamline’s Collapse: How a Twitch Partnership Nearly Killed the StudioA promising Amazon deal turned into a disaster, forcing Proletariat within 72 hours of shutdown. Seth details how they navigated this near-death experience.[00:55:00] Spellbreak’s Origins: From Magic Arrows to Spell CombinationsDiscover how a spark of inspiration—combining magic attacks in unexpected ways—led to the creation of Spellbreak’s core mechanic and ultimately shaped its success.[01:03:00] Discord Growth and a Viral Trailer: The Road to AcquisitionAfter two failed term sheets, a viral trailer and massive Discord surge helped Proletariat land an Epic Games deal—fueling momentum toward Blizzard’s acquisition.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is Mac Reynolds, CEO and co-founder of Night Street Games, making the PvP shooter Last Flag. As manager of the band, Imagine Dragons, he learned how to find magic from the grind and now applies that to a videogame. We discuss Eagle Scouts, learning to advocate and CTF - this week! Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Realizing How Hard It Is to Make a Game Mac shares how his early assumptions about game development were quickly shattered after launching Night Street Games.[00:08:00] From Managing Imagine Dragons to Founding a Game Studio Learn how Mac transitioned from music manager to game studio co-founder with his brother Dan Reynolds, lead singer of Imagine Dragons.[00:11:00] Building Night Street Games: A True Family Venture Mac discusses starting Night Street Games, working with Dan, and their love for classic developers like LucasArts and Sierra.[00:17:00] Designing Last Flag: A New Take on Capture the Flag Hear how Last Flag evolved from a simple concept into a competitive third-person multiplayer game inspired by hide-and-seek.[00:21:00] Innovative Gameplay: Radar Towers, Seeker Drones & Strategy Mac breaks down the unique mechanics that make Last Flag stand out—like territory control and high-stakes flag defense.[00:29:00] Leaving Law for Creativity and Founding a Studio From law school to the Grammy Awards to launching a game studio, Mac reflects on choosing passion over a traditional career path.[00:44:00] Building a Remote, Scalable Game Team from Scratch He explains how Night Street scaled to over 50 people, balancing internal hires with tightly integrated outsourcing.[00:56:00] Comparing Music & Games: Creativity, Community & Joy Mac reflects on what games and music have in common—creation, community, and the magic of bringing people joy.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is the poster boy for educational software going massively mainstream, Phillip Bouchard. Starting in the world of mainframes he created a worldwide hit on Apple II and beyond. We talk Apple getting kickstarted and science for fun and profit this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] The Legacy of The Oregon Trail: Still Remembered 40 Years Later Philip reflects on the surprising longevity of The Oregon Trail, a game still remembered decades after its release and played by new generations.[00:08:00] Dysentery and Game Design: Origins of a Legendary Game Over Screen Discover how the infamous “You have died of dysentery” message became part of the 1985 version—and why it wasn’t in the original 1971 text-only release.[00:13:00] Building the Classic Version: Small Team, Big Impact Learn how a five-person team crafted the Apple II version that defined The Oregon Trail, combining educational goals with entertaining gameplay.[00:20:00] From Text to Graphics: A Full Redesign for Apple II Philip explains how the 1985 version was a complete rebuild with new code, visual assets, and expanded simulations—leaving the original codebase behind.[00:25:00] State-Owned Software: The Story of MEC and Minnesota’s Role Explore how Minnesota’s state-funded organization MEC developed and distributed The Oregon Trail, influencing early educational software nationwide.[00:36:00] Instant School Success: How Teacher Demand Took Over After initially launching only in the home market, teacher demand led to widespread adoption of The Oregon Trail in classrooms across North America.[00:41:00] Life After Oregon Trail: From Munchers to Broderbund Philip talks about his post-Oregon Trail career, including work on the Munchers series and his time at Broderbund and McGraw-Hill.[00:45:00] Writing, AI Art, and Retirement: Philip’s Current Creative Life Now retired, Philip shares his passion for writing science books, experimenting with AI art, and staying curious across new creative hobbies.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest this week is Adam Boyes, longtime co-CEO of Iron Galaxy and now founder of Vivrato. From Killer Instinct to The Last of Us Part I, he’s helped bring major games to life and now supports devs launching their own. We discuss putting in raunchy stuff, nemawashi and his magic deck of challenges - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] "Shipping Will Burn You": Why Making Games Is the Best Teacher Adam kicks off with advice for aspiring devs: build, release, and learn from failure—because real growth comes from shipping games, not just dreaming them.[00:08:00] From Farm Town to QA: Adam’s Unlikely Start at EA Sports Hear how Adam landed his first job in games testing NBA Live 97 and FIFA 98, despite growing up in rural Canada with dreams of working on NHL games.[00:15:00] Modding Roots and BBS Culture: The Birth of a Developer Adam shares how his love for PC modding and running a Jurassic Park–themed BBS shaped his curiosity and multi-discipline approach to game development.[00:27:00] The Wild Days at Midway: Slugfest, Blitz & Studio Chaos From canceled games to f-bomb-filled meetings, Adam reflects on Midway’s raw, chaotic culture—and how it helped him grow as a producer and leader.[00:34:00] “Nemo Washi”: Building Consensus Like a Japanese Producer Adam explains the Japanese business concept of Nemo Washi, and how it shaped his leadership style—building trust, alignment, and resource sharing across teams.[00:44:00] Smashing Red Tape at PlayStation: Killing the Concept Submission Process At Sony, Adam eliminated outdated approval systems and championed indie access, unlocking millions in dev revenue and streamlining platform entry.[00:50:00] Iron Galaxy’s Secret Sauce: Co-Development with the Best in the Biz Adam discusses co-developing Skyrim, Diablo III, The Last of Us Part I, and Fortnite—and how Iron Galaxy became one of the industry’s most trusted studios.[00:56:00] Launching Vivrato: Solving the Game Industry’s Hardest Problems Now at Vivrato, Adam's mission is to help devs at all levels—focusing on industry-wide challenges with a personalized, high-impact advisory approach.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Rémi Racine is the founder & CEO of Behaviour Interactive—the studio behind Dead by Daylight and dozens of other titles. A veteran of the games industry for over 25 years, Rémi has helped shape not just iconic games but also the entire Canadian game development landscape - this week! 00:02:10 — From Montreal to Mainstream: Remi’s first game at age 24Discover how Remi’s early passion project turned into a pioneering move in Canadian game development.00:08:45 — The Birth of Behaviour InteractiveLearn how Remi spun off from Multimedia Interactive to create a now-iconic game studio.00:14:30 — Behind the Scenes of Dead by DaylightRemi discusses the strategy, surprises, and evolution of Behaviour’s biggest hit.00:19:55 — How to Keep a Game Studio IndependentA rare look at the decisions and principles that kept Behaviour from being acquired.00:27:12 — The Reality of Licensing vs. Original IPGet Remi’s take on the balance between creative control and commercial viability.00:34:00 — What Triple-A Studios Get WrongInsights from Behaviour’s CEO on the cracks in big-budget game development.00:41:10 — Advice for Young Game DevelopersRemi shares the practical skills and mindset that aspiring devs should master.00:49:55 — His Bold Bet on Service-Based GamesExplore why Remi believes in games as ongoing services—and what makes that sustainable.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest Nolan North has brought to life your favorite videogame characters with his voice! From Uncharted's Nathan Drake and Assassin's Creed's Desmond Miles, to scores of others, he is a top talent in the industry. We discuss the freedom of preparation and being broke but happy - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] From Soap Operas to Sound Booths: Nolan North’s Unexpected VO Journey Nolan shares how a friend encouraged him to pivot from acting on Port Charles to voice acting—kicking off a prolific video game career.[00:06:00] Recording Anywhere: How Remote VO Work Changed the Industry Nolan explains how post-pandemic voiceover work allows actors to record high-quality audio from home studios across the country.[00:12:00] Childhood Impressions and Baseball Dreams Hear how Nolan’s early love for mimicking voices and playing sports shaped his journey before he ever touched a microphone.[00:20:00] Breaking In with $750 and a Yell Nolan recalls his first video game gig, yelling lines for just $750—and how that led to a reputation as a go-to, reliable voice actor.[00:26:00] Bringing Nathan Drake to Life with Performance Capture Nolan details how Uncharted rehearsals, ad-libbing, and trust from Amy Hennig made the character of Nathan Drake feel human and iconic.[00:33:00] Going Beyond the Voice: Crafting Penguin, Joker & More Nolan dives into his diverse range—from his gruff Penguin in Arkham to an offbeat version of the Joker and even made-up languages.[00:47:00] Voice Acting Wisdom: It's Not Rejection, It’s Fit He reflects on casting experiences and why actors should focus on authenticity over perfection—it’s about the right fit, not the best read.[01:00:00] The Power of Preparation & Professionalism in Voice Work Nolan stresses the importance of showing up early, knowing your lines, and respecting the team—success is in the discipline.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Our guest John Blackburn is a founder and CEO of Avalanche Software, makers of hundreds of games for dozens of platforms, such as Hogwarts Legacy and Disney Infinity. He has tales of when games paid royalties and having to take a chance. We discuss how to talk to execs and being true but not canon - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Mortal Kombat Funded Avalanche’s Origins John Blackburn reveals how Avalanche Studios was launched thanks to Mortal Kombat Trilogy royalties—literally bankrolling the studio's earliest days.[00:13:00] Salt Lake City: An Underrated Game Dev Hotspot John shares the rich game development legacy of Salt Lake City, from the roots of Sculptured Software and Access Software to Avalanche and beyond.[00:21:00] Working on Mortal Kombat at Sculptured Software John discusses his first big project as a junior programmer, working on Mortal Kombat for Super Nintendo—with access to an arcade machine right outside his office.[00:25:00] The Crazy Coincidences Behind Avalanche’s Founding Learn how a failed job offer, a chance bar conversation, and a loophole in rights ownership led to Avalanche’s first contract with Midway.[00:31:00] Mortal Kombat Trilogy: The Royalty Deal That Changed Everything Blackburn explains how the CD-based release of Mortal Kombat Trilogy and a classics reprint led to a royalty windfall that solidified the studio’s future.[00:40:00] Disney Acquires Avalanche for Platforming Expertise John recounts how Avalanche’s work on licensed platformers like Tack and the Power of Juju led to Disney acquiring the studio after seeing early progress on Chicken Little.[00:54:00] How Disney Infinity Was Born from Toy Story 3’s Toy Box Mode Infinity started as a toy-themed platform game before pivoting into the toys-to-life genre after the success of Skylanders—with the blessing of Bob Iger.[01:00:00] The Secret Behind Hogwarts Legacy: Portkey Games & Creative Freedom Blackburn shares how Portkey Games enabled Avalanche to develop an original story set in the Wizarding World—without needing to retell the Harry Potter books.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505

Michael Morhaime, co-founder and former president of Blizzard Entertainment, now heads Dreamhaven, aiming to empower creators. He shares insights into Blizzard’s high standards, revealing that nearly half of their projects were canceled to maintain quality. The discussion highlights Dreamhaven's values of creative freedom and innovation. Morhaime also reflects on his journey from electrical engineering to game development and the nostalgia of his first programming experiences, offering a deep dive into the evolving landscape of the gaming industry.