
Night Owls
Joe Klein and John Ellis on what's happening and what happens next. Joe Klein is the author of seven books and "Sanity Clause," a Substack newsletter. John Ellis is the founder and editor of two Substack newsletters — News Items and Political News Items. The two friends have covered American politics for a combined 95 years.
Latest episodes

Jan 17, 2025 • 1h 5min
Episode 54 (with Susan Mulcahy)
Nobody knows the New York Post like Susan Mulcahy. She wrote the book. She talked about it with us.

Jan 9, 2025 • 1h 1min
Episode 53 (with David Barboza Part 4)
Episode Four: A dream assignment: David moves to Shanghai and begins covering China. He goes from "Sock City" to Apple, to the extraordinary changes in China's economy, politics and culture. The final episode covers everything from Wuhan to Taiwan, fentanyl to semiconductors, quantum computing to cyberhacking, to Xi's political standing and how much (and how many of) China's most successful people dislike and distrust Xi.

Jan 9, 2025 • 17min
Episode 52 (with David Barboza Part 3)
Episode Three: The not-a-partnership partnership of one of the world's greatest entrepreneurs and one of the world's richest men is a case study in modern China. David describes the "partnership" that became the subject of an extraordinary report co-produced by The New York Times and David's news magazine, The Wire China.

Jan 8, 2025 • 34min
Episode 51 (with David Barboza Part 2)
Episode Two: We begin our conversation with David about China and whether the "Thucydides Trap" can be avoided.

Jan 8, 2025 • 32min
Episode 50 (with David Barboza Part 1)
Episode One: David Barboza, former Shanghai Bureau Chief for The New York Times, is building a new kind of media company. Call it Bloomberg for China.

Dec 28, 2024 • 1h 8min
Episode 49 (with Deb Roy)
In the final episode of our Cortico trilogy, we talked with the company's founder and CEO, Deb Roy, about the future of "building civic muscle" and his roadmap for a national Cortico network.

Dec 21, 2024 • 1h 7min
Episode 48 (with Deb Roy and Alex Kelly Berman)
Part two of our conversations with the senior management of Cortico, the platform for "deeper conversations". Featuring Deb Roy and Alex Kelly Berman.

Dec 11, 2024 • 39min
Episode 47 (With Deb Roy and Kathy Cramer)
Deb Roy, a media arts and sciences professor at MIT and co-founder of Cortico, joins Kathy Cramer, a political science professor at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, to discuss innovative AI systems promoting dialogue. They delve into how technology can elevate underrepresented voices, the effectiveness of smaller group discussions over traditional meetings, and the emotional disconnect felt by rural voters in politics. The conversation emphasizes understanding personal narratives to bridge political divides and create healthier community interactions.

Dec 4, 2024 • 42min
Episode 46 (with Jane Metcalfe Part 2)
Part Two of our interview with Jane Metclafe, a woman who saw the future clearly. Twice.

Dec 3, 2024 • 33min
Episode 45 (with Jane Metcalfe Part 1)
Part One of our interview with Jane Metclafe, a woman who saw the future clearly. Twice.