“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.” —Kevin Kelly In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include: The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke 2023: Walking, by Dan Wang Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00) Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier. Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode) Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode) Wired (technology magazine) The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England) Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45) Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts. Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode) The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book) Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club) Hoka (brand of walking shoes) Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00) Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020. Seeking rural places (Deviate episode) Jiangxi (Chinese province) Guangdong (Chinese province) Yunnan (Chinese province) Salzburg (city in Austria) The Vulnerable Observer, by Ruth Behar (book) Anna Greenspan (media professor) Communitas (unstructured community of equals) Daniel Pink (46:00-52:00) Daniel Pink is a best-selling author of books on work, business, and life. His “Why Not?” project in collaboration with the Washington Post to aims to jolt America’s imagination about possibilities. When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, by Daniel Pink (book) Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink (book) The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink (book) Craig Mod (52:00-69:00) Craig Mod is an author and photographer who has written and photographed about his walks across Japan, his love of pizza toast, and his life in Japan. Walk Japan (tour company) Rich Roll (ultra-endurance athlete) The Glorious Boredom of My Walk in Japan, by Craig Mod (essay) Kissa by Kissa, by Craig Mod (book) Things Become Other Things, by Craid Mod (book) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

Actor and writer Andrew McCarthy shares tips on travel storytelling, including balancing truth and narrative, selecting characters, and mixing personal details with place descriptions. He discusses memory accuracy, crafting travel stories, and managing writing alongside acting. McCarthy explores the roles of actors and directors in storytelling and the complexities of writing about personal relationships.

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00). Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness. Notable Links: Microadventure (local travel initiative) Industrial farming (agriculture practice) Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book) Rewilding (conservation biology) Korean DMZ (rewilded demilitarized zone) Seek (nature identification app) Merlin Bird ID (birdsong identification app) On Looking, by Alexandra Horowitz (book) Henry David Thoreau (naturalist and essayist) Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard (book) Mary Oliver (naturalist and poet) Right of way (public right to hike on private land) A Journey Around My Room, by Xavier de Maistre (book) Traveling in Place, by Bernd Stiegler (book) An Attempt at Exhausting a Place in Paris, by Georges Perec (book) Dustsceawung (Old English term for “contemplating dust”) Black Death (14th century pandemic) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have dominated the AFC in the four years since 2020, how this success has affected people’s perception of them, and how the Chiefs’ Midwesternness makes them different from other NFL dynasties (1:05:30); the role superstition plays in sports fandom, how some team fandom comes out of love for individual players, how fandom creates a leveling of social classes, and the merits of “fair weather” fandom (1:10:30). Novelist Tod Goldberg (@todgoldberg) is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the director of the University of California-Riverside Palm Desert Low-Residency MFA. NFL games and players: Super Bowl LIV (2020 KC Chiefs versus SF 49ers NFL title game) Rolf Benirschke (San Diego Chargers placekicker in the 1980s) The Catch (touchdown reception in the 1981 NFC Championship Game) Christian “Nigerian Nightmare” Okoye (Chiefs fullback in the 1980s) Mike Mercer (NFL punter in the 1960s) Marshall Goldberg (Jewish Chicago Cardinals running back in the 1940s) 1934 NFL Championship Game, aka the “Sneakers Game” (title game) 1940 NFL Championship Game, (73-0 Bears-Giants title game) Steve Grogan (New England Patriots quarterback in the 1980s) Ed “Too Tall” Jones (Cowboys defensive end in the 1980s) Super Bowl IV (1970 Chiefs versus Vikings NFL title game) NFL Films: Super Bowl IV Highlights (sports documentary) Hank Stram (Chiefs coach from 1960-1974) Len Dawson (Chiefs quarterback in the 1960s and 1970s) Todd Blackledge (Chiefs 1983 draft-pick quarterback) Joe Montana (quarterback who won four Super Bowls with the 49ers) Super Bowl XLVII (2013 Ravens versus 49ers NFL title game) Patrick Mahomes (current Chiefs quarterback) Andy Reid (current Chiefs head coach) Jimmy Garoppolo (former 49ers quarterback) Super Bowl XVI (1981 49ers versus Bengals NFL title game) Jet Chip Wasp (pass play that helped the Chiefs win Super Bowl LIV) Other links: “Pandemic Love: A personal history of nostalgia“ Deviate episode 142) Kumbh Mela (Indian Hindu pilgrimage celebrated every 12 years) Tod Goldberg on why sports is so emotionally affecting (Deviate episode) Matthew Zapruder (American poet and editor) West Coast offense (passing-oriented football strategy) Candlestick Park (former stadium that hosted San Francisco 49ers games) Tom Landry, Existentialist, Dead at 75, by Sarah Vowell (essay) Tecmo Bowl (1980s football video game) Sears Christmas Wish Book was great American literature (Deviate episode) Nerf (toy brand that made foam footballs) Championship: The NFL Title Games Plus Super Bowl, Jerry Izenberg (book) The Super Bowl Shuffle (rap song performed by the 1985 Chicago Bears) All-America Football Conference (professional football league from 1946-49) Los Angeles Dons (football team in the AAFC) American Football League (professional football league from 1960-69) Battle of New Orleans (1815 battle between British and US armies) Former Minnesota quarterback Joe Kapp gets in a fight (video) Lloyd C. A. Wells (pioneering scout for the Chiefs in the 1960s) Historically black colleges (pre-Civil Rights universities for African-Americans) Edgar Allen Poe (Baltimore poet whose poem inspired the Ravens mascot) 2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals v. A’s baseball game) “A Native American football team beat the 1927 NFL Giants” (Deviate episode) “How Mahomes Made 3rd & 15 Magic in Super Bowl LIV” (NFL Films doc) Ken Griffey Jr. (American baseball player) Lambeau Field (Sports stadium in Green Bay) Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, by Paul Fussell (book) 2015 World Series (baseball championship won by the Kansas City Royals) Golden State Warriors (NBA team based in San Francisco) Marshall Goldberg in 1940 (left), and Tod Goldberg in 2020 (right) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Billionaires can’t take a week off? What’s the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?”  –Tim Ferriss In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what “wealth” is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and “efficiency” is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the “beginner’s mind,” and tips for writing and creativity (54:00);  the merits of going on foot and “getting lost” on the road, and how this figured into Rolf’s writing classes (1:17:00); notions of “success,” and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one’s way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf’s recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00); Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster. General Links: Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s summer writing classes) Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (audiobook) The Game Camera (short film cowritten by Rolf and Kristen Bush) Tim Ferriss on how to create a successful podcast (Deviate episode) Arnold Schwarzenegger on The Tim Ferriss Show LeBron James on The Tim Ferriss Show Cheryl Strayed on The Tim Ferriss Show Jerry Seinfeld on The Tim Ferriss Show Tortuga (bags design for long-term travel) Unbound Merino (travel clothing company) AirTreks (round-the-world flight planner) BootsnAll (online travel community) Interview Links: Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode) Man bites dog (aphorism about journalism) “War is God’s way of teaching Americans geography” (quote) Beginner’s mind (attitude of openness) Adaptation (2002 film) Anne Lamott (American author) Kurt Vonnegut (American author) The Hero’s Adventure with Joseph Campbell (podcast remix) Flâneur (urban wanderer) Situationists (1960s social and artistic movement) Psychogeography (exploration strategy) Dave Chappelle (comedian) John Hughes (filmmaker) Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah (American essayist) Grizzly Man (2005 documentary film) Werner Herzog Reads Curious George (satire) Con Air (1997 film) Aimee Nezhukumatathil (poet) Naomi Shihab Nye (poet) Major Jackson (poet) Donald Hall (poet) Books mentioned: Walden, by Henry David Thoreau (book) The 4-Hour Work Week, by Tim Ferriss (book) The Art of Nonfiction, by Ayn Rand (book) Writing Tools, by Roy Peter Clark (book) To Show and to Tell, by Phillip Lopate (book) Screenplay, by Syd Field (book) Story, by Robert McKee (book) Save the Cat, by Blake Snyder (book) A Moveable Feast, by Ernest Hemingway (book) Leaves of Grass, by Walk Whitman (book) Good Hope Road, by Stuart Dischell (poetry) Alien vs. Predator, by Michael Robbins (poetry) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss being vulnerable to new experiences, how monuments make us reflect on life, taking the travel mindset home, and the role of ritual in slow travel.

“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don’t speak the language.”  –Thomas Swick In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom’s career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00). Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A Story of Love, Poland, and the Making of a Travel Writer. Notable Links: The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Misery memoir (literary genre focusing on trauma) Aix-en-Provence (city in France) Alsace (region of eastern France) Trenton Times (newspaper in New Jersey) Watergate (political scandal) David Maraniss (American journalist and author) Pope John Paul II (Poland-born Catholic pope) Solidarity (Polish anti-authoritarian movement) Martial law in Poland (early 1980s reaction to Solidarity) Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and author) Tim Cahill (American travel and adventure writer) Dave Barry (American humorist and author) Holiday Magazine (postwar travel magazine) Granta (British literary magazine) Holidays in Hell, by P.J. O’Rourke (book) Colin Thubron (British travel writer) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

In this podcast episode, Rolf Potts and The Vagabond's Way book club participants discuss breaking out of tourist routines, finding the 'wisdom of place' by becoming independent of technology, and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken. They emphasize the importance of embracing the unexpected, engaging with locals, and leaving smartphones behind to connect with people and explore new experiences.

“Not everyone who’s lucky is talented and not everyone who’s talented is lucky.”  –Tom Bissell In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom’s lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction “characters” (16:00); Tom “failures” as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00). Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra Lives, and The Disaster Artist. Notable Links: Rolf’s Paris travel memoir workshops (annual classes) Salt and Fire (2016 Werner Herzog movie) Star Wars: Andor (TV series) Harper’s Magazine (literary publication) Aral Sea (endorheic lake in central Asia) Steven Soderbergh (American film director) Ryszard Kapuściński (Polish journalist and author) A Sense of Direction, by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (travel memoir) “War Zones for Idiots”, by Tom Bissell (essay) Lucasfilm (American film and TV company) Tony Gilroy (American screenwriter) Michael Clayton (2007 legal thriller movie) Greg Sestero (American actor and model) Tommy Wiseau (Polish-American filmmaker) The Room (film regarded as the worst movie ever made) Creative Types, by Tom Bissell (short story collection) The Father of All Things:, by Tom Bissell (memoir) Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher) Stoicism (school of Hellenistic philosophy) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (Russian writer and dissident) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.”  –Rolf Potts In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00). Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England. Notable Links: Rolf’s online book club signup The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book) Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan) Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay) Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour) White Zombie’s J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode) Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater) Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes) The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber. Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.